00:01:36 abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-13-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:05 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:44 thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:24 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-46-120.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:09:30 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D768.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:10:52 bohanlon [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:42 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B327CA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:10 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327CA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:19 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:08 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:25:34 davazp [~user@128.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:12 cmo-0` [~user@92.99.48.191] has joined #lisp 00:27:21 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:38 -!- cmo-0 [~user@92.99.48.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:33:18 -!- moocow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:35 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:34:12 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.13.12] has joined #lisp 00:38:04 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:30 -!- Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-63.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:39:48 should I be using sb-xc or sb!xc in code being cross-compiled and read on the host? 00:40:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:41:56 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 00:43:01 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:43:31 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:44:12 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:25 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:46:18 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 00:46:49 -!- thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: http://twitter.com/thoolihan] 00:47:38 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:47:41 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:47:41 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 00:47:41 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 00:51:52 gonzojive1, depends. 00:54:31 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10.1 -- Are we there yet?] 00:56:49 -!- Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:58:02 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:26 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:46 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-117-208.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:49 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 01:02:59 -!- cmo-0` [~user@92.99.48.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:04:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06:38 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:57 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.127] has joined #lisp 01:08:23 l_n [~not_you@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 01:10:47 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:10 -!- khrum42 [~khrum42@2001:a60:f05d:1::dead] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:11:41 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:14:09 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:29 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-63.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:19:30 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:16 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:06 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-13-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:22:09 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:22:11 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 01:23:39 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:56 abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-13-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:23 gonzojive [~red@2002:800c:a95a:4:fa1e:dfff:fee3:34e8] has joined #lisp 01:31:56 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:57 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@143-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:35:47 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:42:33 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 01:44:57 Are you modifying the source, or writing a hot-patch? 01:52:47 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:53:32 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-133-254.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:55:37 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-136-157.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:35 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-108-150.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:49 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:58:35 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:20 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-133-254.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:03:35 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-165-229.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:29 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-108-150.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:06:31 serichse` [~user@f049185202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:07:55 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:12 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:09:42 -!- serichsen [~user@f049005165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:09:44 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:10:06 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-169-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:10:24 Watching a fresh F13/KVM install shooting itself into the foot with SELinux during package updates. Hilarious. 02:11:34 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.169] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:11:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:07 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 02:13:17 -!- sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:40 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:14:26 So, it appears that doing KVM is virtualbox-easy these days, when using virt-manager. 02:16:15 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16:31 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:19:11 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:20:44 dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has joined #lisp 02:23:27 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-13-115.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:23:28 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:40 -!- gonzojive [~red@2002:800c:a95a:4:fa1e:dfff:fee3:34e8] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:23:46 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:25:58 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:32 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-83-166.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:26 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:31:11 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-165-229.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:31:21 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-193-122.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:26 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-83-166.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:34:49 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-3-107.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:23 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-193-122.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:36:34 gonzojive [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 02:38:31 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:33 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 02:43:25 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-35-48.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:08 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-3-107.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:47:37 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:02 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-252-192.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-35-48.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:51:17 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:19 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-114-180.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:47 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:54:52 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-252-192.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:58:47 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-26-209.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:08 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-114-180.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:00:06 -!- insanux [~hola@83.50.180.208] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:02:07 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Farewell!] 03:03:57 gko [~gko@114-136-243-8.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:07 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:20 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-26-209.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:58 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-24-231.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:11 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-117-208.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:07:51 does the format ~P directive have an is/are functionality 03:08:20 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-63.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 03:09:20 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:23 -!- dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:12:05 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:12 sabalaba, no, as per http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/22_chc.htm 03:15:45 IDK, but this far, user-experience-wise, yum on F13 is a joke compared to the worst situations I had with apt on Ubuntu/Debian. 03:19:17 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-24-231.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:19:18 sabalaba: you can use "~:[is~;are~]" (< 1 subjects) 03:19:55 -!- phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:00 phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 03:23:35 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-84-163.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:25 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:24:57 pjb, (print "~:[is~,are~]" (< 1 a) ) if a is my subject? 03:26:46 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 03:29:58 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-145-119.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:23 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-84-163.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:31:30 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:39 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 03:31:45 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:33:13 Why do I need to recompile a (set-dispatch-macro-character ...) form when the specified function to call is changed? 03:33:22 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:40:53 -!- Mesh [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 03:50:59 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-47-14.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:56 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:44 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-145-119.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:54:36 -!- jrockway is now known as \o| 03:56:49 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-34-15.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:17 CTAPOMAK [~kvirc@host-92-124-179-166.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has joined #lisp 03:57:20 -!- CTAPOMAK [~kvirc@host-92-124-179-166.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:57:52 -!- \o| is now known as jrockway 03:58:17 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-47-14.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:00:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.127] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:00:48 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:01:42 CTAPOMAK [~kvirc@host-92-124-179-166.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:01:47 -!- CTAPOMAK [~kvirc@host-92-124-179-166.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:02:39 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:03:05 derrida, how did you specify the function to use? 'fn or #'fn? 04:03:14 rich_holygoat_ [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:15 -!- rich_holygoat_ [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:03:15 rich_holygoat_ [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 04:03:37 deepfire: #' 04:03:54 Then the function object to use is decided at compile time. 04:04:36 'fn is late binding, #'fn is early binding, so to say. 04:06:06 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:06:06 -!- rich_holygoat_ is now known as rich_holygoat 04:07:05 What? 04:07:20 Zhivago, I'm prepared to be enlightened :-) 04:07:35 IS there a more efficient way to write this: (print (format nil "There ~:*~[are~;is~;are~] ~:*~r World~:*~p in this Universe" a)) 04:07:36 hmmm, both seem to produce the same result. i'll pastebin the code : http://paste.lisp.org/+2FWW 04:08:55 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-171-34.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:17 sabalaba: is that even valid? 04:09:22 Zhivago, hey, don't bail on me after ruffling the feathers, I demand a continuation! 04:09:30 deep: 'fn as a function-designator refers to the global definition rather than the lexical definition (which is what #'fn refers to). 04:09:37 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:09:43 deep: It isn't a matter of binding time. 04:09:53 derrida, it runs 04:10:08 Consider the case of (flet ((a () 1)) (funcall 'a)) 04:10:23 Zhivago, well, but if you take away lexical definitions? 04:10:34 funcall should not invoke that flet's code. 04:10:38 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-34-15.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:10:57 Then it should be the same deal. 04:12:29 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-141-58.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:37 derrida, what do you think 04:13:31 Hmm, I wonder where I did pick up this misconception.. 04:14:10 Good morning everyone! 04:14:35 good morning, beach 04:14:49 i'm still confused why thet (set-dispatch-macro-character ..) form is needing to get recompiled to recognize the latest definition 04:15:11 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-171-34.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:15:14 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:15:18 rich_holygoat: Hey, haven't seen you for a while. 04:15:20 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-120-71.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:12 yeah, I restart my machine and forget to start my IRC client for a year or two :) 04:16:33 sabalaba: that form doesnt run in sbcl afaict 04:17:47 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-141-58.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:18:06 -!- davazp [~user@128.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:18:37 sabalaba: if you use a pastebin it would make sure we're both looking at the same code 04:19:19 http://pastebin.com/jpuUsERJ 04:19:25 derrida, there 04:19:47 -!- jaiball [~justin@c-76-119-131-178.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:21:01 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-57-140.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:09 -!- l_n [~not_you@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:22:20 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-120-71.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:25:36 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:26:03 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-71-98.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:32 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-57-140.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:28:38 Okay, this is one of my better FORMAT efforts: 04:28:44 (format "~@{~[~*~:;~:*~:d ~(~a~2:*~p~*~)~^, ~]~}" ...) 04:28:49 ericklc [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 04:29:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:37 I think you misspelt "perverse". 04:30:37 See http://paste.lisp.org/display/113938 for the context. 04:32:05 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-71-98.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:32:32 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-76-59.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:34 l_n [~not_you@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 04:33:35 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 04:35:32 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:35:37 sabalaba: you probably want ~:; rather than ~; between the 'is' and second 'are' clauses. 04:36:16 And it's not clear why the first ~:* is there, or how that could possibly work. 04:36:29 And instead of ~:*~p you can write ~:p 04:37:29 So: (format nil "There ~[are~;is~:;are~] ~:*~r World~:p in this Universe" n) 04:42:01 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:42:34 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:46:56 -!- gonzojive [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 04:49:53 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-118-73.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:42 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-76-59.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:52:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pflnsakzrzazqcnx] has joined #lisp 04:53:31 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 04:55:13 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-12.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:24 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-118-73.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:48 gonzojive [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 05:07:39 -!- gonzojive [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Client Quit] 05:09:40 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-36-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:23 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-12.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:13:16 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:14:19 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eealxtszjuiphyyp] has joined #lisp 05:14:54 gigamonkey, thanks 05:15:49 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-113-128.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 05:22:16 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-90-215.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:19 -!- dose [~tristan@offyourtrol.li] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.6 -- Are we there yet?] 05:24:05 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-36-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:25:16 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.3] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:25:29 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.3] has joined #lisp 05:28:58 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 05:29:07 sabalaba: no problem. 05:36:19 Fare was answering my question about when to use sb!xc vs. sb-xc but he is gone now.. anybody know when? For some reason src/pcl/walk.lisp uses sb-xc:macroexpand but most places use sb!xc 05:38:53 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 05:39:55 ldunn [~user@d110-32-145-146.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:41:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-113-128.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:42:50 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-82-187.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:52 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:44:14 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-90-215.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:47:10 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 05:50:11 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:51:43 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-145-146.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 05:51:43 ldunn [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:53:59 -!- X-02 [~x_02@p2208-ipbf203kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:54:11 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-225-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:17 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-82-187.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:55:54 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:00:18 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-222-21.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:39 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:45 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-37-62.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:05 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-225-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:03:24 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:53 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:14 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:04:48 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-222-21.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:05:45 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-99-154-14-142.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:08:57 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:10:18 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:11:32 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-37-62.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:03 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:18:08 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:28 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:32 gonzojive1: pcl is compiled in the post-bootstrap core 06:19:22 pkhuong_: the walker is cross-compiled, I think 06:20:35 khrum42 [~khrum42@2001:a60:f05d:1::dead] has joined #lisp 06:22:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-148.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:25:09 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 06:28:17 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.127] has joined #lisp 06:34:10 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:34:28 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-186-208.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:05 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 06:42:05 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 06:42:05 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:45:16 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 06:45:29 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has left #lisp 06:45:34 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 06:46:13 minion: memo for gigamonkey: been checking for another person who was worried and who probably (like me) didn't use the download but just read on the net (though I wouldn't mind finally having chance to get the book) 06:46:13 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 06:46:13 p_l, memo from gigamonkey: BSD license on the code, IIRC. There should be a COPYING file in the download. 06:46:13 p_l, memo from gigamonkey: Actually it's called, LICENSE ;-) 06:47:12 Fargo [gz4@CPE-121-223-104-201.lnse2.woo.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:48:05 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:47 beach: btw, interesting thing to note in CLIM3 - make the API not interfere with possible adding of stuff like animation to the UI... done a very quick an dirty comparison, and slight animation, despite losing cycles on it, actually improves perception of speed... 06:49:50 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:49:56 -!- Fargo [gz4@CPE-121-223-104-201.lnse2.woo.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 06:51:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 06:52:54 claint [~user@88.234.52.42] has joined #lisp 06:57:19 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:57:44 p_l: I see. 07:04:25 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 07:04:41 what do you mean by 'not interfere', p_l? 07:04:59 basically, as long as the animation doesn't make the reaction time go over acceptable threshold 07:05:30 the animations make the user recognize timings as well as distract him and make the whole interface seem "doing something" 07:06:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:41 Ah... you mean that CLIM3 should never block the program flow? 07:06:52 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:07:37 daniel: more like "the API shouldn't make it impossible to make animations etc" cause I believe that putting any serious work into UI thread is like hanging yourself 07:08:04 yes, basically 07:08:54 on the other hand - maybe it's cooler to have a SEPARATE ui thread and do work in the main thread. less efficient in general, but far more intuitive to program 07:10:53 what would be interesting would be to see a toolkit that really embraced such separation... though I heard Windows.Forms and WPF are quite close (Windows.Forms require you to state if you're using multithreaded or singlethreaded model, though) 07:11:55 Is CLIM3 at any useable level or is it still design phase? 07:12:57 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:13:07 schmrkc: I am doing the design and the coding in parallel. There is nothing worth downloading at the moment. I have some hard decisions to make about what to keep from CLIM2/McCLIM, and what to redesign/rewrite. 07:13:52 beach: oh ok. I'm just about to start working on a mcclim app. So I was wondering if one should go with the clim3. But I guess not :) 07:13:58 schmrkc: Basically, the replacement for the sheet/design/output-record concepts exists, and I have coded a simplified input system. 07:14:24 schmrkc: That's right, don't wait for CLIM3. 07:15:40 Is there any hope for CLIM3 running on windows too? 07:15:56 schmrkc: I have no idea. I know nothing about windows. 07:15:59 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 (that is: without me doing any work to get it running on it) 07:16:04 yeah same. 07:16:24 I wrote some app some time ago and Lisa wanted to use it but she is refuses to kick out the ol' win XP 07:18:36 -!- wubo [80f40909@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:27 schmrkc: you can install X server on windows, and well, there have been some abortive tries at getting McCLIM on win32 07:19:28 diwr [diwr@unaffiliated/diwr] has joined #lisp 07:19:50 -!- diwr [diwr@unaffiliated/diwr] has left #lisp 07:20:33 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 07:20:40 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:20:51 Good morning! 07:21:04 mathrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 07:22:29 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #lisp 07:23:23 -!- khrum42 [~khrum42@2001:a60:f05d:1::dead] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:24:11 schmrkc: The backend I am working with now is a simple frambuffer thing, so if Windows can do that, there should be no problem. 07:25:32 -!- ldunn [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:57 p_l: I am aware of this install the X server. And think it is a totally crap solution. 07:27:22 beach: framebuffer? as in the linux framebuffer dev? 07:27:56 iruttw4lker [~iruttw4lk@117.207.181.239] has joined #lisp 07:28:05 ruepel0r [~rue@vpnsh0005.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:28:48 beach: "simple framebuffer" is how classic windows GUI works 07:29:44 -!- Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:22 Hmm, well, that hasn't been true for a long time. 07:31:07 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 07:33:09 man i am just a beginner...excitd about ths programmable programmin language ...how true is it?? 07:33:40 As true as eggs. 07:33:45 like, true true 07:34:00 -!- levene__ [levene@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:34:02 ToGgG__son [~Shiva@3615mylife.foreverlovingjah.fr] has joined #lisp 07:34:05 -!- rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:34:07 -!- ToGgG__son is now known as EZEki3l 07:34:12 -!- kami` is now known as kami 07:35:53 thats cool....also heard that no other language got that property...well...ho true s that?? 07:36:03 iruttw4lker: totally not true. 07:36:09 Some other languages are also as true as eggs. 07:36:13 But not perl. 07:36:31 well theen which one?? 07:36:37 Perl is as true as left handed socks. 07:36:48 iruttw4lker: scheme and forth for starters. 07:36:49 irutt: Javascript is as true as duck eggs. 07:36:52 -!- EZEki3l [~Shiva@3615mylife.foreverlovingjah.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37:22 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: honkers] 07:38:04 schmrkc: I don't know. I am using a client-side X11 image object. 07:38:08 any gues on whats true as chicken eggs ?? 07:38:24 beach: cools 07:40:13 Well, there are X11 servers for windows, so ... 07:42:30 levene [levene@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 07:43:45 ToGgG__sOn [~Shiva@3615mylife.foreverlovingjah.fr] has joined #lisp 07:45:36 timor [~timor@port-92-195-65-18.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:45:51 Zhivago: I mean the low-level interface other than DWM (that's why I called it "classic") 07:46:20 though I suspect you could create multiple sub windows for widgets etc 07:48:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:48:59 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:07 -!- iruttw4lker [~iruttw4lk@117.207.181.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:50:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-129-226.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:31 Using a frame buffer allowed me to do things like translucency and anti-aliasing easily. I don't know how to do that otherwise on X11. 07:51:10 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:32 XRender :) 07:52:32 Zhivago: That would be a possibility for some things. But I don't know how to stick a PNG image on top of a line drawn using an X11 drawing primitive. 07:53:28 Of course, the fact that I don't know how, doesn't mean it is not possible. 07:54:16 *p_l* would love if X11 started moving back towards server instead of becoming "remote framebuffer with borked vector compositing extension" 07:55:07 beach: See the XRender extension. 07:55:35 I'm pretty sure it does that. 07:55:51 p_l: or towards display postscript 07:55:57 I think that X11 should be obsoleted by a successor to html5. 08:00:16 I think that display postscript would be a terrible mistake, myself. 08:04:38 why? 08:04:54 Am I understanding it correctly that *READ-SUPPRESS* should prevent simple-reader-package-errors? 08:05:19 Zhivago: it's just like the Web: instead of html you have ps/pdf, instead of javascript you have ps 08:05:32 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:39 Zhivago: well, of course it should be brought up to date wrt to CSS and stuff 08:06:13 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:22 The worst thing about display postscript is that it is about printing. 08:06:44 And in printing you lose all of the information about what things mean in order to get what they look like. 08:06:46 CTAPOMAK [~kvirc@host-92-124-179-166.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:06:59 Zhivago: personally, I've been dreaming of X12, based on device independent vector graphics, with DOM-like manipulation 08:07:04 At least with html they avoided that mistake by using the DOM. 08:07:18 Yeah, and you'll get that in html5.2 or whatever :) 08:07:37 (and bytecode to execute a complex set of ops in one go) 08:07:44 Yeah, javascript. 08:08:17 as for HTML-as-GUI... some concepts are nice, but to make it actually nice, you'd probably need to scrap it completely first 08:08:32 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:08:34 No, I don't think so. 08:08:46 I think it's pretty much the right thing at the moment. 08:08:46 My reading of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_sup.htm suggests that reading missing-package:symbols shouldn't signal errors when *READ-SUPPRESS* is set. 08:09:27 Zhivago: well, I was for a long time rathr sceptical about webapps, and HTML/js was one of the big reasons... 08:09:34 There are some extensions that would be nice, such as being able to integrate canvas and dom rendering properly. 08:10:08 p_l: Well, turns out you were wrong. :) 08:11:28 deepfire: Sounds right. 08:12:12 Zhivago: not much, actually... the ones that actually went off "right" weren't the ones I've been the most sceptical about :D 08:12:38 and the ones that executed certain more crazy stuff in a way that worked fine for me ended up using Flash :P 08:12:52 How do I eval-in-frame in SBCL's debugger? 08:13:27 Zhivago: what I see as a great possibility for web applications is some of the new HTML5 stuff, especially local storage 08:13:42 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C8E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:56 cause a *disconnected* work is what I was worried the most 08:14:23 Yeah, it's not like you ever had that problem with X11 or display postscript. 08:15:04 deepfire: if it's supported at all, I think you UP/DOWN until you reach the frame, and then evaluate stuff. 08:15:19 too many of them fell to fallacy of network RPC users 08:15:28 p_l: have you seen the implementation of quake2 in html5? 08:16:27 p_l: But, sure -- I agree that localstorage is a good idea. 08:16:42 Gets rid of a lot of cookie nonsense as well. 08:17:12 antifuchs, thanks 08:17:51 I need sleep, I can't figure out what unsets *READ-SUPPRESS*. 08:18:00 daniel: yes 08:18:25 i guess i'll drop dead looking at the javascript code. i really wonder why people are willing to code in this mess 08:18:57 i'm pretty sure it's the "there's nothing else available"-philosophy driving them to code like google mail and such alikes 08:19:16 s/philosophy/situation/ 08:19:19 Just use javascript as a compilation target. 08:19:31 personally, I'd love not HTML5 on desktop, but Plan9's model with better display protocol (though it had beginnings of the "complex operation" thiny) 08:19:32 Thing is, I'm READing .asd files, form by form, and I handle all serious conditions by binding *R-S* to T, seeking back to where we started reading the form and re-READ-ing, so as to seek past the problematic thing. 08:19:52 Zhivago: yeah, that seems feasible 08:20:45 Unfortunately, the SIMP-PACK-READ-ERROR stack trace points me precisely at the point where I'm re-reading for seek, and where *R-S* is bound to T. 08:21:04 And I can't imagine why that would happen. 08:21:14 what I wish for my webapp projects is non-borked Worker system and less crazy differences between performance 08:21:22 heliot [~kvirc@212.63.70.34] has joined #lisp 08:21:22 I'm just glad that html has won and we're not going to regress back into the dark ages like that 08:22:23 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-32-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 i'm a bit sad that nothing better than html/css/javascript has ever been invented 08:23:30 I'm not. It's taken a hell of a long time to even get to this point. 08:23:44 sure thing 08:23:47 And a lot of the reason is that people have been too much enamored of things like display postscript. 08:23:53 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-73-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:24:04 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-126-87.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:04 Or largely mythological efficiency issues. 08:24:47 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-13983.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:01 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:25:50 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-186-208.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:26:07 We've finally gotten a largely introspectable display model with the fine grain control largely ripped out of the twitching grasp of graphics designers. 08:27:42 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-151-237.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:28:56 *deepfire* pasted "*READ-SUPPRESS* weirdness" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/113939 08:29:01 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-136.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:30:14 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 08:30:18 Hi, I want to use clisp under slime on windows 08:31:08 how can I Load files at start (e.q. asdf)? 08:31:34 heliot: Often there is a .sbclrc or something file. 08:31:59 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@vpnsh0005.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:33 heliot: you did a multi-file project and want to make sth like a /makefile/? or do you want to install/load an extern project? 08:32:46 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-65-18.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:51 clisprc.lisp, I put (load (compile-file "C:/usr/local/asdf.lisp")) in it, but wenn I start slime asdf is not loadet 08:33:41 heliot: (require 'asdf) 08:33:44 Out of my league, at least until I get some sleep. 08:35:12 trebor_dki: "there is no package with name #1="ASDF"" 08:37:34 heliot: oh, sorry, then it is not shipped with clisp (with sbcl it is). i suppose you have to download asdf and asdf-install manually then. 08:39:00 How many cycles does it take to get the value of a special variable in (say) SBCL? 08:39:08 I've already downloaded it, with acl-express, it works perfect 08:39:22 beach: Would depend on architecture, threading support, etc. 08:39:40 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:39:46 Zhivago: Assume threads, AMD64, and whatever other assumptions are necessary. 08:40:04 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:29 Zhivago: An order of magnitude is all I need. Is it like 5, 20, or 100? 08:42:21 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:42:45 Dunno. You could look at the assembly. 08:42:56 I suppose I could, yes. 08:42:59 I presume that it's reasonably cheap given thread local storage. 08:43:30 Zhivago: well, you need to figure out whether the variable has been bound, so there must be some test in there. 08:43:35 Sure. 08:44:03 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-68-19.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:44:44 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-27-212.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:01 and also you must check whether the binding to use is the global or thread-local one 08:45:05 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 08:46:04 and of course cycle counts aren't really a well defined concept these days :-/ 08:46:14 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-126-87.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:46:27 hlavaty` [~user@77.22.104.162] has joined #lisp 08:46:46 jsnell: I checking which binding to use different from checking whether it has been bound? 08:46:58 -!- franki^ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:46:59 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:47:05 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-151-237.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:47:13 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:47:21 Well, you could think of it as a double unbound test 08:47:25 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:28 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:47:46 Right, you have to check whether it's unbound as well. 08:47:48 Mixing up global and dynamic variables was a really bad idea. 08:48:18 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:48:26 -!- Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:48:30 hello lispers 08:48:38 hello kiuma 08:48:54 Elench` [~user@dsl-217-155-101-20.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:49:08 the way it works is roughly: if the symbol has ever been thread-locally bound, you first check the thread-local storage. if that slot contains a special bit pattern, you look up the global symbol-value slot 08:49:50 -!- Elench [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:50:33 so you need a memory access for the thread-local index where the value should be, another for that value, then possibly a third one for the global value, + a few comparisons 08:51:06 jsnell: OK, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! 08:51:34 hlavaty`` [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:13 -!- hlavaty` [~user@77.22.104.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:53:01 jsnell: That's probably still faster than to access a global variable in C these days, with shared libraries and such. 08:53:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:02 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:54:14 Nah. 08:54:46 You expect to pay one indirection for shared libraries. 08:54:48 jsnell: How is the index into thread-local storage determined? 08:54:55 And none of this unbound nonsense. 08:55:04 (Or thread local nonsense :) 08:55:10 it's an extra slot in the symbol 08:55:37 trebor_dki: when I start clips on cygwin-bash with this command: "/bin/clisp.exe -I -K full -i \"c:/cygwin/home/heliot/.clispinit.lisp\", clisp loads asdf, but with slime it doesnt work 08:56:06 jsnell: So there is a slot in every thread for every special variable? 08:56:22 -!- Elench` is now known as Elench 08:56:26 every special that has ever been bound (rather than set globally) 08:56:36 clispinit.lisp = clisprc.lisp 08:56:52 -!- Elench is now known as Guest73174 08:56:58 jsnell: Bound by any thread whatsoever? 08:57:42 right. so when you bind a special, you check whether that symbol already has a thread-local index allocated. if so, you store the value into the current thread's thread local storage at that index 08:57:59 -!- Guest73174 is now known as Elench` 08:58:19 if not, you increment the index-counter and set the thread-local index of the symbol to that 08:58:20 <_3b> heliot: maybe try putting the clisprc in whatever dir (user-homedir-pathname) returns when you start clisp from slime? 08:58:27 jsnell: OK, thanks! 08:59:15 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:29 this isn't a very good system in some ways (you can have at most 4k different symbols being bound, since we only allocate 4k-words for symbol storage in thread) 09:00:07 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:52 jsnell: Could you not reallocate more storage if necessary? Though that would require another test I suppose. 09:01:02 -!- Elench` [~user@dsl-217-155-101-20.zen.co.uk] has quit [Changing host] 09:01:02 Elench` [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 09:01:36 trebor_dki: CL-USER> (user-homedir-pathname) 09:01:36 #P"/home/heliot/" 09:01:40 hlavaty`` [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:53 pavelludiq [~user@83.222.175.142] has joined #lisp 09:04:30 <_3b> heliot: (probe-file "/home/heliot/.clisprc.lisp") ? 09:05:54 trebor_dki: I've already tried. returns nil 09:06:59 -!- Elench` is now known as Marvello 09:07:07 tfb [~tfb@92.41.164.90.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:10:18 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:38 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:12:41 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 09:13:20 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:14:46 franki^ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has joined #lisp 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[~not_you@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Quit: Vision[0.9.7-H-090423]: i've been blurred!] 11:29:35 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0AA4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:37:07 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 11:39:27 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 11:40:33 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 11:45:09 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 11:47:39 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.127] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:51:00 -!- heliot [~kvirc@212.63.70.34] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 11:52:45 -!- gko [~gko@114-136-243-8.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 11:53:19 How would I go about either flushing the *standard-output* stream, or un-buffering it? 11:53:33 See force-output and finish-output 11:53:42 Thanks :) 11:54:17 Dilberto [~Dilberto@201.160.242.87.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 11:54:26 ize gots mees a question abouts da lsp! 11:54:33 wat be lisp all about brah? 11:54:40 dat aint no faggot shit? 11:55:05 what's the smell? 11:55:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 11:55:16 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q Dilberto!*@* 11:56:05 empordanes_37 [~user@95.214.69.190] has joined #lisp 11:56:05 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:21 -!- empordanes_37 [~user@95.214.69.190] has quit [Client Quit] 11:56:23 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:59:37 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-12-197.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:00:47 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:02:48 Dilberto: watch the /topic 12:03:01 Dilberto: You're new to programming, aren't you? =P 12:03:23 (at least to freenode that is) 12:03:54 also... that slang ain't cool even in real world, even less so on the net 12:03:56 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:14 *jtza8* wonders, is that supposed to be a troll? 12:04:25 jtza8: probably... a very weak one 12:04:31 <_3b> given that it is from the same domain as the usual troll, i'm guessing so 12:04:50 I suspect we must be very bored to actually deal with a troll... 12:04:58 At least it's mildly ammusing. 12:05:05 I can unquiet it if you like. 12:05:11 haha 12:05:12 no thank you 12:05:13 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:40 jtza8: not as amusing as my friend's banning policy, back when he helped administration of a university forum... 12:06:04 they added a real-world banhammer for people who avoided bans :> 12:07:15 p_l: Ah. If they don't get it online, then they can at least feel it in the real world. :) 12:08:54 jtza8: all miscreants stopped when the ban crew started showing with two *big* hammers and sit with the miscreant in lecture :> 12:09:19 Hehehe 12:11:03 -!- Dilberto [~Dilberto@201.160.242.87.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #lisp 12:11:19 Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-52.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:13:41 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:20 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:45 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-91-157.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:18 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eealxtszjuiphyyp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:27:56 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:29:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@124.62.3.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:55 -!- lusory [~bart@bb119-74-203-203.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:05 Dodek: did you hear back from vsedach? 12:35:41 Xach: yeah, he said he's going to change it back. 12:36:12 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-113.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:36:16 Thanks for noticing! 12:36:25 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36:35 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-35-83.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:38:27 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:38:50 lusory [~bart@bb119-74-208-236.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:39:45 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:02 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:19 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D0AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:43:04 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1DB17.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:38 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 12:44:45 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:11 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 12:45:55 jaiball [~justin@c-76-119-131-178.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:47 -!- serichsen [~user@f049185202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Have a nice weekend!] 12:53:03 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.191] has joined #lisp 12:55:39 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:06:55 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:09:26 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23A6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:08 xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has joined #lisp 13:20:33 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pflnsakzrzazqcnx] has left #lisp 13:22:49 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:58 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:27:22 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:48 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:28:55 carlocci [~nes@93.37.199.242] has joined #lisp 13:35:04 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:26 shortsightedsid [c0a314e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.163.20.232] has joined #lisp 13:35:36 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:57 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:00 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-223-8.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:00 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-223-8.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:41:00 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 13:43:20 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:43:29 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-81-52.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 13:43:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:45:39 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 13:46:14 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-27-212.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:46:36 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-148.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:47:36 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-100-158.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:48 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-37.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:48:31 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:03 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:49:08 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-12-197.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:50:26 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-81-52.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:55:34 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.195.185] has joined #lisp 13:56:50 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:46 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:38 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:03:00 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 14:04:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-129-226.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:04:42 When was the last time you used a synonym stream? 14:05:37 Or rather, created one for your own use. 14:08:49 nevre 14:08:50 never 14:09:11 swank uses it, and I used it for logging purposes 14:11:05 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 14:13:37 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:14:28 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BB6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.255.226] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 Bronsa [~bronsa@host152-175-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:17:26 |CTAPOMAK| [~kvirc@host-92-124-135-223.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:17:27 -!- |CTAPOMAK| [~kvirc@host-92-124-135-223.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:17:34 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 14:17:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:19:38 -!- CTAPOMAK [~kvirc@host-92-124-179-166.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:37 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 14:24:37 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 14:24:42 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1DB17.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:25:05 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 Likewise, I used a synonym stream for logging. But that was quite some time ago. 14:26:08 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:30:14 redline6561 [~redline@m592336d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:41 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 14:37:37 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-91-157.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:38:51 egoz [~Egoz@202.70.54.180] has joined #lisp 14:42:13 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:43:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:47:08 minion: memo for pkhuong_: Re types, how would you ensure correct load instructions for immediates when constants are untyped? Surprisingly, in ECL it works fine, but that's because I (so to say) relaxed VOP matching so that I can require exact prim-types for args, and then use them to generate correct casts, or access correct boxed union members. 14:47:09 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong_ when he/she/it next speaks. 14:48:00 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 14:48:44 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 14:48:55 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:54:49 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:34 -!- redline6561 [~redline@m592336d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:59:58 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.164.90.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:40 -!- shortsightedsid [c0a314e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.163.20.232] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:03:26 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:30 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:45 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:13:35 Who put copy-stream into alexandria? 15:13:52 the name conflict with cl-fad is rather annoying 15:15:47 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.56.33] has joined #lisp 15:15:47 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.56.33] has quit [Changing host] 15:15:47 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 ah yes, you've reminded me of another set of static data i want to gather 15:16:11 packages with symbol names that conflict. 15:16:49 -!- ericklc [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:17:03 how much machinery is behind that? 15:17:06 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:09 (conflicting-exporting-packages 'alexandria) => (cl-fad ...) 15:17:20 tcr: not much. it's easier than some of the other info i want to gather. 15:17:32 -!- me4 [user@091-141-116-193.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:49 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 just load libraries and dump the package configuration to a database of some sort. 15:17:58 might be useful for some hoogle like service 15:18:38 tcr: i hope to add a lot of useful static/searchable info to quicklisp.org 15:19:12 I can see a slime contrib be written for something like that :-) 15:25:00 me4 [user@091-141-116-193.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 15:25:09 speaking of slime contribs 15:25:34 I know it's come up a couple of times on the mailing list, but now _I_ want a contrib for "output image to repl" functionality 15:25:40 heh 15:25:45 (and I am speshul so pls make it thx) 15:26:13 Let's see about the package variance issue, and then maybe move on to slime repl pictures! 15:26:14 mad5ci [~mad5ci@acbb141.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:26:26 bah 15:26:53 hello 15:27:33 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-203-208.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:51 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23A6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:01 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:18 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:30:02 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-100-158.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:30:37 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:32:19 ericklc [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:33:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113949  Is the GC stats output described somewhere after heap exhaustion? 15:37:53 i forgot to add :after in defmethod initialize-instance, and now the default method is overwritten 15:38:07 how can i get the original method back without restarting an image? 15:40:51 tcr: not that I know. In all that *GC-INHIBIT* being T may be the most important. 15:40:56 get a backtrace from ldb 15:41:18 *not that I know of 15:41:41 oh sorry I already quit, I thought it's because I run with default dynamic heap size which I perhaps incorrectly remembered to be around 512mb 15:41:52 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:45:13 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:14 tcr: that sounds right 15:45:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-203-208.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:55:43 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:56:34 tfb [~tfb@92.41.205.220.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:56:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:00:44 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:56 Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has joined #lisp 16:02:21 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-4-184.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-113-128.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:04:08 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:07:04 Does anyone know of cl bindings to libmagic? 16:07:06 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:09:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:09:26 tcr: COPY-FILE is exported from four different libraries! 16:09:40 *Xach* resolves not to use alexandria, cl-fad, arnesi, and metabang.utilities together 16:10:15 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-132.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:10:22 Don't forget cl-utilities! 16:11:04 mega1: there you go: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113949#1 16:11:24 LiamH: i actually haven't found any projects that depend on it. do you know of any? 16:11:52 I really like its extremum function, it's a miss that comes up quite regularly 16:11:59 also with-collect 16:12:00 Xach: yes, mine, but I've been moving them to alexandria + split-sequence which seems to be a superset 16:12:07 LiamH: which of yours? 16:12:33 Xach: GSLL and I think GSD at various points depended on cl-utilities. 16:12:52 LiamH: ah 16:13:32 tcr: ah, I see. *GC-INHIBIT* is always T when it's GC that runs out of heap 16:13:34 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:39 * the GC 16:13:40 Since CFFI depends on alexandra and I need CFFI, I figured why not use alexandria, it's already loaded. 16:13:45 can't type today 16:14:10 so it's a simple not-enough-memory error by all appearances 16:14:35 Good evening everyone! 16:15:04 #.(greet), beach 16:15:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-132.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:15:44 mad5ci: Hello, I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 16:18:12 -!- Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-52.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 16:19:05 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.205.220.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:20:38 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:23:46 beach hi 16:23:56 yes, i'm new to this channel 16:24:17 i'm lookin for help with lispbox test build 16:25:23 I personally know nothing about that, but if you state your problem, someone else might. 16:27:16 so the problem is that previous versions had installer included so all you had to do is click click click. but i'm a type of person which has to have everything up-to-date and shiny new. new build of lispbox lacks installer, there is only dir structure with included soft and i don't know where should i start, what to install, what is already done and so on 16:28:02 tried to contact andreer on lispbox channel but he doesn't respond 16:28:29 slyrus: around? 16:28:38 indeed 16:29:00 slyrus: how much disk did you want for the VPS? 16:29:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:29:41 slyrus: actually, pop over to #tech.coop so as not to bother the kind lispers :) 16:29:46 mk2` [~user@evanspc2.rai.umds.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:30:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:15 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:34:39 Xach: i have gone back to the old style... each project has a utils.lisp into which i copy functions from alexandria/arnesi/etc. sometimes, if i'm feeling really crazy, i'll do (if (find-package :arnesi) (import ensure-list :arnesi) (defun ensure-list ...)). 16:35:57 errr 16:36:13 (import arnensi:ensure-list) 16:36:19 *drewc* has not had coffee yet 16:39:33 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:40:25 -!- benny [~user@i577A3474.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:30 mad5ci: do you have any particular reason for using lispbox? 16:42:55 beach besides it includes emacs, is easy & has everything i need to start with lisp? ;-) 16:43:53 Fair enough! 16:44:02 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:24 mad5ci: I tend to choose whatever implementation people on #lisp are willing to help me with :) 16:46:17 -!- coyo [~unf@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:46:39 brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm087073.sitm.nt.ngn4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:46:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:47:17 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:48:26 -!- brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm087073.sitm.nt.ngn4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:56 drewc: i think my habits about adding dependencies like alexandria will change as quicklisp matures 16:49:17 drewc: e.g. i've started using postmodern a lot more on throwaway projects simply because it's so easy to pull in 16:49:47 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:51:33 beach and which implementation do you use? :> 16:55:12 Xach: what did you use before instead of postmodern? 16:55:26 stassats: perl 16:55:47 ugh 16:55:52 *Xach* agrees 16:58:48 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:01:22 -!- cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has quit [Quit: the more I see, the less I know] 17:01:23 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:34 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:03:19 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:05:24 -!- egoz [~Egoz@202.70.54.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07:37 jdz [~jdz@host139-105-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:10:24 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:48 urandom__ [~user@p548A6C2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:22 deepfire: if you'd like to try quicklisp, hop in #quicklisp. i'd be interested in hearing your impressions of it. 17:12:45 Colb-Seton [~Colb-Seto@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-47-104.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:15:37 deepfire: it's the bomb! 17:15:37 gigamonkey, memo from p_l: been checking for another person who was worried and who probably (like me) didn't use the download but just read on the net (though I wouldn't mind finally having chance to get the book) 17:16:14 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:16:33 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:17:04 cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has joined #lisp 17:20:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 17:20:55 amos__ [~amos@host86-147-211-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:21:06 -!- Colb-Seton [~Colb-Seto@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-47-104.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:29 Colb-Seton [~Colb-Seto@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-47-104.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:23:37 *tcr* wishes for specialized hash-tables 17:26:15 benny [~user@i577A80DB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:26:52 tcr: hmm? 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or open the lib yourself? this does not sounds like a hard problem. 18:54:59 sorry, I don't understand the "o tell (code) it not to" 18:55:34 the portable way is to specify "libc.so", in most unix system, it should be a symbolic link to libc.so.6 or something 18:55:44 mephisto_ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has joined #lisp 18:56:04 but on some systems, it's a linker script such as: 18:56:05 OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf64-x86-64) 18:56:05 GROUP ( /lib/libc.so.6 /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a AS_NEEDED ( /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ) ) 18:56:23 galdor: (cffi:load-foreign-library "libc.so.6") works here 18:56:52 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:57:08 here to, but using the following fails: 18:57:09 (define-foreign-library libc 18:57:09 (t (:default "libc.so.6"))) 18:57:13 (use-foreign-library libc) 18:57:27 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-37.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:32 Error opening shared object "libc.so.6.so": 18:57:33 libc.so.6.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory. 18:57:33 [Condition of type LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR] 18:59:10 generally speaking, using libc.so.6 makes an assumption on the version of the libc 18:59:19 that's why there's libc.so 18:59:30 there's not libc.so at runtime though 18:59:58 eh? 19:00:01 that's part of the libc-dev package, it won't be necessarily installed where your app is running. 19:00:41 foom: didn't know that, on archlinux it's part of the glibc package 19:00:53 foom: and I find that very annoying 19:01:09 there's no such thing as libc.so.6.so 19:01:22 fe[nl]ix: compile your app at compile time like a good little lemming. :) 19:01:26 and he doesn't need libc-dev 19:01:54 just type in "libc" as the library name, it should work fine 19:02:09 weirdo: I know, that's why I specify libc.so.6 and am annoyed that cffi still wants to use libc.so.6.so when using define-foreign-library 19:02:34 weirdo: as I sayed, it tries to load libc.so which is a linker script 19:02:46 Error opening shared object "libc.so": 19:02:46 /usr/lib/libc.so: invalid ELF header. 19:02:47 [Condition of type LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR] 19:02:50 19:02:53 19:04:31 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:06:20 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:09:40 galdor, but why should you need to load libc explicitly? 19:10:28 well to mess with unix functions :) 19:11:04 you should be using dlopen(NULL instead; I'm not sure how that's wrapped by cffi. 19:11:40 foom, he can just open the functions without d-f-l 19:11:44 with no problems 19:11:55 okay, great. do that then. :) 19:12:10 wonder if i can d-f-l advapi32.dll or something 19:12:11 :) 19:12:20 seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E46B16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:39 I can, but I'm curious, and if I can find out how to use the libc as any other lib... 19:12:41 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1DB17.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:58 linker scripts really piss me off 19:13:29 there's some :unix param for the exact path 19:13:40 gcc links programs against libc.so.6, so I'm searching how to tell cffi not to add .so to "libc.so.6" 19:13:49 ahh that's exactly what I'm searching 19:14:22 -!- TomJ [~tomj@78.151.111.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:59 here it is: 19:15:00 (define-foreign-library libc 19:15:00 (:unix (:or "libc.so.6")) 19:15:00 (t (:default "libc"))) 19:15:01 that works :) 19:15:06 thank you 19:16:47 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-89-226.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:16:51 galdor: you don't need to load libc 19:17:03 at least on *nix 19:17:08 it's already loaded 19:17:39 let's say I use several libraries, and switch between them with use-foreign-library 19:17:56 lisppaste: are you mute? 19:17:56 if it's already loaded, how do I switch to it once I'm "in" another library ? 19:18:31 is there an fboundp for the SBCL cross-compiler? "bug in SBCL cross-compiler: proclaim-as-fun-name / info-functions.lisp" -- http://paste.lisp.org/display/113966 19:18:33 hi gonzojive1! 19:18:51 galdor: what do you mean you're "in" a library ? 19:19:13 let's say I need to use functions from libc and libsdl 19:19:28 I define libsdl, and use it with use-foreign-library 19:19:40 so any defcfun and all after that use libsdl 19:19:45 no 19:19:57 oh 19:20:06 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-37.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:20:10 use-foreign-library just loads it, nothing more 19:20:13 hi Xach 19:20:31 so when you're using defcfun, it searches in all loaded foreign libs to find the symbol ? 19:21:24 no 19:21:46 at any point there's only one global symbol with a given name 19:22:07 actually, it depends 19:22:11 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:22:22 the implementation might call dlopen with RTLD_LAZY 19:22:30 instead of RTLD_NOW 19:22:57 well afaik, to call a foreign function, you need to dlsym() the handle returned by dlopen() 19:23:36 dlopen(NULL) gives you the executable's view of the global symbol table, though. 19:23:44 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:16 lnostdal [~quassel@62.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:20 oh, so you can use dlsym on the handle returned by dlopen(NULL) to get the address of any symbol of a library linked against the current program 19:24:22 yes but depending on how dlopen was called, dlsym might just do a lookup in the global symbol table or search all loaded libraries 19:24:29 ok 19:24:40 gonzojive1: Do you ever commit to cl-twitter? 19:25:02 Xach: I did about 6 months ago 19:25:24 gonzojive1: If I had a problem report and a patch to fix, are you the person who cares the most? 19:25:26 i submitted patches and Ian Eslick committed them, 19:25:31 ok. 19:25:44 *Xach* emailed Ian, but wasn't sure what the current state of affairs is 19:26:27 i think there's a mailing list. did you try that? I got the feeling I was the only one using the library when I used it 19:26:55 heh 19:27:19 I didn't try that. The mailing list's last message is approximately "Hello? Does anyone care?" 19:27:23 from, I think, May. 19:27:39 Which var have I to set when I will load .dll files from C:\cygwin\bin\ with allegro-express? 19:28:14 seelenquell: this is not a good place for help with allegro-on-windows questions. i've heard they provide excellent support (and they also have a thick manual). 19:29:35 I didn't understood USE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY before, it's better now; thank you for explaining :) 19:30:08 tom [~pierre@212.99.78.123] has joined #lisp 19:30:25 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:41 -!- tom [~pierre@212.99.78.123] has left #lisp 19:30:52 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:31:04 Xach: I have not yet found, but I´ll trying it again 19:31:07 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:26 Xach: I suppose this is the place to ask quicklisp questions now? (: 19:32:03 antifuchs: Party has moved, temporarily, to ##quicklisp 19:34:55 #quicklisp was so quick, it ran away? 19:35:11 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-113-128.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:35:27 Fire drill. Channel cleared for inspection and registration. 19:36:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:37:24 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:38:38 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:39:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 19:40:11 milanj [~milanj_@91-150-120-8.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:41:25 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:42:45 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:21 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:45:34 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:52:51 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:53:43 stassats: Did you see my messages to slime? 19:53:56 tcr: Here are libmagic bindings called magicffi: http://common-lisp.net/project/magicffi/ 19:54:15 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 19:55:05 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:55:51 It is quite easy to use. I found options :symlink :continue :raw work for my purposes. 19:56:39 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:43 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:56 Good evening everyone. 19:57:01 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:41 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:59:21 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 20:02:22 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 20:03:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:22 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has left #lisp 20:07:19 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-80.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:49 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:10:38 Reav_ [~Sarge@41.210.191.7] has joined #lisp 20:14:51 heaumer [~heaumer@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:39 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-124-179.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:19:39 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:21:51 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:23:26 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-60-135.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:25:01 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-32-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:05 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 20:26:54 ejs [~eugen@94-248-48-212.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 20:28:26 -!- Reav_ [~Sarge@41.210.191.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:09 hello peterhil 20:32:18 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:32:25 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:23 -!- ssideris [~sideris@93-97-178-232.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:40:17 Sbidicuda [~antani@host7-215-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:41:09 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:19 varjag [~eugene@c0D61BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 20:41:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@c0D61BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has left #lisp 20:42:12 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:43:08 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 20:44:28 Colb-Seton [~Colb-Seto@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-47-104.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:45:27 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.56.33] has joined #lisp 20:45:27 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.56.33] has quit [Changing host] 20:45:27 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 20:45:46 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:19 -!- Colb-Seton [~Colb-Seto@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-47-104.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:47:48 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 20:47:52 Hi 20:48:04 Hello Sikander 20:48:06 Hi Sikander 20:48:45 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:59 ssideris [~sideris@93-97-178-232.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:49:26 So I was reading (which is when I'm at my most dangerous)... And somewhere it was claimed that due to the possibility of side effects in lisp, it's not possible to do parallelization automatically, as compared to, say haskell where functions are pure. 20:49:48 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 20:50:20 I was wondering, would it then be possible to introduce a way to declare a function pure (such as one of the optimize declarations) and have lisp then automatically know when to parallelize where possible? 20:51:07 And, of course, would this be useful, interesting or even desirable? 20:51:25 or is this against the CL standard? 20:52:41 A "pure" optimization declaration would be much easier for the lisper than to dirty his hands in semaphores, locks, whatever. 20:53:24 *Sikander* realizes he's having a single-sided conversation, which are the best ones. 20:53:58 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:54:23 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:54:28 LiamH: Did you have time to look at the compare functions for the tests? 20:54:34 Sikander: yes 20:54:35 lemonade` [~lemonade`@pool-71-178-51-180.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:51 LiamH: And...? 20:55:15 Sikander: I now have a stride function in grid that pulls out every nth element. I will use to build a better comparison. 20:55:29 Sikander: CL was definitely made to be sequential. You could parallelize some functions in the CL package because the compiler would know that they are side-effect free (in fact, that's not the only issue, because a function that depends on the value of a global variable is also problematic). 20:55:52 is there a version of lisp that doesn't use car and cdr and other unused machine-level analogs? 20:56:12 Sikander: On the other hand, it is very hard to create a system that can take advantage of such fine-grain parallelism. 20:56:36 Sikander: However, I'm a bit stumped by the "anti-stride" function. It doesn't fit into the AFFI model, which is linear. I'm not clear on why the non-stride elements need to be checked separately. 20:56:48 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:52 Sikander: did you commit your fix to the randomness problem? 20:57:01 lemonade`: Use first and rest instead of car and cdr? 20:57:14 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:20 beach: I was hoping that with such a declare option, it would be left to the lisper to see if his function is pure or not. On the other hand, I now realise that it would require him to macro-expand to see if there are global var. dependencies 20:57:31 rtoym: ok. thanks 20:57:58 lemonade`: they go up all the way to TENTH. 20:58:04 LiamH: the off-stride element check is done separately by GSL tests. But sure, we can just use the comparison with stride 1. 20:58:10 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:58:12 lemonade`: Why do you care? They are just names. 20:58:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:58:24 *rtoym* was thinking just that 20:58:27 and not machine level anymore surely 20:58:33 LiamH: regarding the randomness, I haveto check the code and test it a bit more to be sure. 20:58:34 Sikander: can you point out where? 20:58:59 beach: it's hard to read the docs which are car/cdr-centric because I'm not sure what is meant by it. it's a learning curve thing. 20:58:59 LiamH: You mean, in the GSL C code? Sure, one sec. 20:59:25 Sikander: yes, thanks 20:59:35 lemonade`: In that case, just think of first and rest. 20:59:42 ok 20:59:42 lemonade`: If you care about the readability of a programming language by non-parctitioners, I think you are on the wrong track. 20:59:47 tsuru: but still very magical! 20:59:54 *practitioners 20:59:55 Doesn't help with things like caddar, though. 21:00:14 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 21:00:14 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 21:00:14 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 21:00:34 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:00:43 lemonade`: Is there a version of C that doesnt use arc and argv? 21:00:47 *argc 21:00:59 tsuru: from SBCL: (defun car (list) (car list)) 21:01:17 [though perhaps you are not a practitioner of C either] 21:01:24 kpreid_ [~kpreid@128.153.212.232] has joined #lisp 21:01:32 beach: you seem to think I'm not willing to put in the time to learn the language. that's not what I'm saying. 21:01:33 LiamH: In the macro-expanded test.c in the fft directory, first search for the definition of test_complex_radix2 (so not the prototype). From there, search for test_offset 21:01:37 Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:39 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 21:01:49 int main(int zot, char **foo) {} works, I think. 21:01:52 :-) 21:01:54 lemonade`: So what *are* you saying? 21:02:20 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 21:02:36 rtoym: Sure. Nice! 21:02:38 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:37 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:42 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-55-90.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 21:04:25 -!- claint [~user@88.234.52.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:27 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:04:29 beach: I *was* saying that I was looking for a lisp or lisp-like language that didn't allude to the registers of machines that I did not have practically any knowledge of, so that I could learn it more efficiently, and be surer that I understood what that language's documentation was trying to convey. but the particular point of car/cdr has been countered by assuming first/last instead. 21:04:39 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:03 thanks all 21:05:07 first/rest, not last 21:05:07 lemonade`: rest is not last 21:05:19 err right. 21:05:23 Just think of car/cdr being words in a weird language [sic!] that you have to learn. 21:05:23 lemonade`: Even if first/rest didn't exist, I think that's *so* not what learning a language is about. 21:05:48 beach: exactly. it just gets in the way. 21:05:57 No it does not at all. 21:06:05 Sikander: wow that's weird. Do you have any sense what they're trying to accomplish there? 21:06:11 LiamH: I think the randomness is fixed. 21:06:15 LiamH: Yes, I do. 21:06:40 lemonade: if _this_ is what gets in your way... 21:06:41 beach: how did you learn lisp? maybe I'm trying some ineffective route. 21:07:06 Sikander: good (to both statements) 21:07:15 LiamH: The trick is that they want to verify that the FFT _only_ works with the given stride, leaving off-stride elements alone. So before and after an FFT, the off-stride elements should be identical 21:07:19 lemonade`: You must be. If you care what names mean, then you are in big trouble. 21:07:46 lemonade`: Do you know Python? Why is a list not a list in Python? 21:07:49 Sikander, ah, I think I see 21:08:08 beach: I don't know Python. I know C pretty well though. 21:08:15 LiamH: Hmmm, my previous statement of using a compare with stride 1 won't work then, since the on-stride elements are eachother's FFT 21:08:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:08:25 lemonade`: I already had an understanding of singly-linked lists before learning lisp, so it was never an issue for me 21:08:38 if you haven't, then it's definitely a core concept that you can't learn lisp without 21:08:52 lemonade`: In C, why doesn't sprintf actually print anything? 21:08:53 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:08:55 LiamH: So to _really_ include _all_ the testing that GSL is also doing, we need such an off-stride comparison 21:08:58 Phoodus: I have an understanding of singly linked lists too, but I don't use car/cdr for them. 21:09:19 beach: you need to flush the output with fflush 21:09:22 lemonade`: you do but by different names 21:09:24 Sikander: right; I think then I will implement it analogous to their implementation 21:09:25 it's just a value/next pair of a linked list node 21:09:26 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-13983.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:09:39 at least, that's the common usage of a cons cell to implemnet a list 21:09:47 it's handy as any sort of very lightweight 2-tuple 21:10:02 fflush doesn't flush the result of sprintf! 21:10:29 sprintf doesn't even work with streams 21:10:42 oh right 21:10:43 beach: What do you mean with a list is not a list in Python? I'm interested in the answer... 21:11:48 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:12:03 Sikander: what is usually referred to as a "list" in python is actually a "vector" or a "1-dimensional array" in common usage 21:12:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:16 Sikander: maybe it's like perl where it's only a list visually on screen but is stored like an array 21:12:30 Sikander: For 5 decades, in CS, a list has been a singly-linked list, with the only primitive operations being car and cdr (or whatever you like to call them). Suddenly, in Python, a list is an abstract data type where you can insert and delete any element. 21:12:43 Could someone explain me the rationale that makes "last" return a list where "first" returns the element? 21:12:54 Sikander: And Python doesn't even tell us what the complexity of those operations are. 21:12:58 beach: Ah, ok. 21:13:17 Apiman: So that you can modify the last element of the list. 21:13:20 Apiman: LAST returns the last N elements of the list 21:13:28 Apiman: the default value for N is 1 21:13:39 adeht: Much better explanation. 21:13:44 beach: It is odd that it's named a list 21:13:59 Sikander: What Python does? Yes, indeed. 21:14:31 Alright that optional parameter was missing 21:14:42 everything clear 21:14:56 thanks 21:14:58 Sikander: And that was the point of the discussion because lemonade` was complaining about the names of car/cdr. I claim those are arbitrary names that we have to get used to. 21:15:17 Apiman: Wait until you find out that (first list) != (nth 1 list) :-) 21:15:26 Sikander: The only bad thing is using a well-established name for a new concept. 21:15:26 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:15:37 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:43 beach: I actually like car/cdr, after I read the history and rationale behind those ames 21:15:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.17.231] has joined #lisp 21:15:56 names 21:16:17 Sikander: Sure, I like it too. It composes well as in caddadr, which you cannot say about first/rest. 21:16:20 tcr: Looking foward to see what happens ;) 21:16:26 I once wrote a nice summary of what I think about car/cdr 21:16:29 I like CAR when FIRST would result in using 81 columns :-) 21:16:51 beach: Exactly, it's great! And it shows character :) 21:17:42 beach: I think that's a total straw man argument; when was the last time you used a remotely fancy implicit list destructuring like that? 21:17:55 why is lisp list-based? 21:18:05 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:08 it's actually not 21:18:41 Sikander: As another example, in the theory of rewrite systems, there is a concept of a "simple" rewrite system. People like lemonade` would complain that "but, but, they are really complicated". I maintain that we do things like that all the time. We stick a name on things and it is not based on logic. Then the best thing to do is to forget about any interpretation of it, and just use it the way it was named from the beginning. 21:18:42 LiamH: Ok, so I think the "secret" of removing the randomness is the crazy initialization that the GSL functions do before hand. 21:19:05 beach: please stop putting be in a box 21:19:10 s/be/me/ 21:19:36 tcr: how do you mean? 21:20:13 lemonade: I suggest you concentrate about actual Lisp texts rather than the slew of Lisp myths on the web 21:20:18 lemonade`: You seriously need to think, or at least do some research, before you speak. 21:20:29 Sikander: so I have the initialization wrong? 21:20:37 adeht: any pointers? 21:20:38 lemonade: Well, one thing is that is has more data structure than lists, and not really list datastructure at all, just chained conses 21:20:45 LiamH: No, not as such. 21:20:45 minion: tell lemonade` about pcl 21:20:46 lemonade`: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:20:58 adeht: thanks 21:21:31 ah, found my car/cdr summary: Incidentally, CAR and CDR are excellent mnemonics, if only because they (i) are short in length; (ii) are of the same length; (iii) are lexically similar but moderately distinguishable; (iv) have convenient pronunciation; (v) are naturally extendable (e.g., CAAR/CDAR/CDDR, which is useful for top-level hacks). They're also not completely arbitrary, as you explained. 21:21:33 tcr: granted! 21:21:53 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:05 I never said or intended to suggest that lisp was bad for having car/cdr. 21:22:37 LiamH: What the GSL _test_ functions do, is they fill the newly allocated arrays with known and unique values. I added a function in example.lisp that does the same. Then I seem to get a certain amount of failures (due to the wrong compare being used), but that amount is reproducible. 21:23:02 I tend to use car/cdr etc almost instinctively 21:23:02 LiamH: It's a bit sick now, I'm using the number of failed tests to see if it's correct... 21:23:33 disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E294.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:42 Sikander: my understanding was that the _noise tests fill with random numbers; my urand functions were an attempt to mimic what GSL has (which oddly doesn't use its own RNG functions) 21:23:56 why does lisp use so much recursion? 21:24:05 beach: I see. 21:24:09 lemonade`: it doesn't do that either (: 21:24:10 lemonade`: It doesn't. 21:24:12 lemonade: dude, are you trolling? 21:24:13 I wish I could seduce more women 21:24:19 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:22 sorry wrong window! 21:24:36 lemonade`: Please go do your homework before making a total fool of yourself. 21:24:37 adeht: no I'm not trolling. I see recursion in lisp books a lot it's a fair question. 21:24:39 LiamH: The noise functions fill the arrays with random numbers _after_ they have been initialised with unique numbers. 21:24:55 LiamH: This, to me, made no sense in the beginning, so I skipped the initialisation with unique numbers. 21:25:20 lemonade: concentrate on PCL 21:25:26 lemonade`: Read that book pointed out to you. It does not use recursion except perhaps where it leans to more readable code. 21:25:27 adeht: ok 21:25:28 Sikander: It certainly doesn't make sense to me. Write a number and then overwrite it, and that makes a difference? 21:25:31 LiamH: However, when stride > 1 it makes sense. Only on-stride elements are filled with random numbers, while the off-stride contain unique numbers 21:26:00 Sikander: oh, OK, so just checking that it doesn't alter the off-stride numbers, now I get it. 21:26:33 lemonade`: Please make a complete list of all the books you have seen and that use recursion a lot! 21:26:40 lnostdal_ [~quassel@62.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:43 lemonade`: just a note, Lisp here means Common Lisp, the most popular dialect, Lisp is not a single language, it has many dialects which sometimes differ alot 21:26:56 lemonade`: make that "Lisp books". 21:27:01 LiamH: I haven't looked at the other GSL tests, but when I dove into the fft tests, I was a bit surprised at how complicated and baffling they are. But after a while it starts making sense. 21:27:41 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@62.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:27:57 to get a good idea about Common Lisp read: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ first then go to the many free books avaliable on the topic 21:27:57 udzinari`: right 21:27:59 LiamH: the fft tests seem very... complicated, but I'm getting the hang of them. When you have an on- and off-stride check, I'm willing to translate _all_ tests to GSLL. 21:28:04 Sikander: all the tests are complicated and baffling, some more so than others. I never thought I'd criticize programmers for using macros too much, but in C, it makes it very hard to read and search. I'm sure the same is true in lisp for people that aren't familiar with it. 21:28:25 LiamH: All I can say is, hurray for gcc -E 21:28:47 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.255.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:57 Sikander: that was definitely a lifesaver for me. I think it was someone here who told me about it, I asked for a "macroexpand for C". 21:29:01 lemonade`: pcl, as suggested is a very good book, if you are already a programmer. otherwise you can refer to Common Lisp: Gentle introduction.. 21:29:22 minion: tell lemonade` about gentle 21:29:22 lemonade`: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 21:29:48 ok I'm going to go through PCL before I ask more questions here thanks! 21:30:04 and/or CLGI 21:30:19 lemonade`: good luck! 21:30:24 thanks :) 21:30:38 can i change all the #-Genera things to say #-sbcl etc ... in lisp files ? 21:30:47 beach: Did you get my e-mail regarding flexichain documentation? 21:31:30 Sikander: I did, thanks! I have been busy with SICL and my Vietnamese classes for a few days, but I'll get around to it. 21:31:32 beach: I'm just using it the way that I found out it works. I'm not sure where to file bug reports, but I think those are "documentation bugs" 21:31:43 beach: Ok, just making sure :) 21:31:45 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:31:47 Sikander: That sounds plausible. 21:32:49 Sikander: I am fairly proud of Flexichain in that I tested the hell out of it, and it is quite a nice API if I may say so myself, so I think the documentation should reflect reality. 21:33:24 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:33:25 beach: It makes it insanely easy to write an editor, that's for sure. 21:33:26 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host152-175-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:33:30 -!- Apiman [~aitor@89.130.203.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:42 beach: flexichain is basically an abstract editor. 21:34:09 Sikander: Yeah, though, I have ideas for a special version for editor buffers that would be even more efficient. 21:34:48 *sykopomp* always thought caddaddadadar was a pretty cool attribute of the CAR/CDR convention... 21:35:13 LiamH: I did quite some coding in C and writing tests for that code, and I always put some clear comments around it to say what I was doing. Even though I'm not a programmer, so most of it would probably look like a dirty hack to a real programmer... Nevertheless... 21:35:15 ugh. cool as in "if you ever do that your coworkers will hate you for it" 21:35:42 sykopomp: I've used it a few times too. However, I'd personally prefer if the a's and d's were listed in the other order 21:35:52 beach: I would be very interested in something like that. 21:36:05 Sikander: It would exploit the possibility of representing each line of text differently, in Unicode if necessary, but only using an octet if the line contains only ascii, and furthermore to compress lines that haven't been used for a while (say using UTF-8) so as to waste less memory. 21:36:10 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 21:36:15 Sikander: If you put clear comments in your code all hopes of you becoming a programmer is lost :) 21:36:48 if you don't, all hopes of becoming an *employed* programmer are lost ;) 21:37:20 pffft. the secret is to get employed. Then make yourself unemployable by being the only one with a chance of understanding the codebase. 21:37:26 beach: I don't know anything about flexichain, but you make me want to pat you on the back for it. 21:37:30 schmrkc: :D Where I worked, they had the philosophy that the best documentation is code. But none of them were real programmers (all scientists, though) so the code was somewhat contorted now and then 21:37:36 schmrkc: that's a great way to become unemployed ;) 21:37:44 schmrkc: Please don't look at SICL then, or else your opinion of me will be forever that of a loser. 21:37:54 (: 21:37:57 *Phoodus* has replaced people like that personally more than once in his lifetime 21:37:58 I love comments. 21:38:09 sykopomp: Thanks! One of the few things I ever finished! 21:38:10 Phoodus: does that apply to self-employment? (: 21:38:42 if you work with others? still does :) 21:38:59 beach: So for a text editor, you would recommend an entry in a chain to be a single line of text? 21:40:01 beach: That new idea sounds cool, but difficult to implement. 21:40:18 schmrkc: Actually, I teach my students that comments are like copouts; they mean "hey, I wasn't able to program this in a way that you can understand, so I put this comment in instead", but that's not quite true for "system" code, where speed is at a premium and you sometimes need to make the code less clear in order to obtain high performance, hence the need for comments. 21:40:47 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e9b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:40:55 comments should never describe "what", the code should do that. However, the comments should say "why" 21:41:05 Sikander: Don't know what you mean by a "chain" but the lines would be organized efficiently, say as a balanced tree. 21:41:42 (unless, as you describe beach, the "what" becomes obfuscated due to implementation details) 21:41:45 Phoodus: That's a good way of saying it. 21:42:11 beach: Sorry, I meant in the current flexichain, you would recommend using one line as an entry in such a flexichain? 21:42:38 -!- ssideris [~sideris@93-97-178-232.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:42:44 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:07 Sikander: Trust me, once I have programmed that, I will also have tested the hell out of it, and hidden it behind an API that resembles that of Flexichain, so you should just be able to use it. 21:43:11 beach: you should (if you don't already) have students write different parts of code, and force them to use a random other student's part to finish their own project 21:43:13 That's typically what I did in my comments; I explained _why_ I did this (with references to articles and equation numbers when required) 21:43:25 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:45 Sikander: True, I would use a flexichain for each "open" (i.e. recently used) line of such a data structure. 21:44:13 Phoodus: Been there, done that. The students *hate* it! 21:44:22 heh, cool 21:44:34 ssideris [~sideris@93-97-178-232.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:44:50 beach: Well, I'm playing around with flexichain and trying to implement the (in)famous ed. I came to the conclusion that flexichain basically already is and ed without the interface. 21:44:52 of course, that sort of hateful situation comes automatically on the job :) 21:44:55 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23A6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:23 beach: But there, I just slurp the whole file into a flexichain and go from there. 21:45:26 Sikander: It is quite adequate, and improving on it would just be a way for me to get another publication. 21:45:41 beach: Ah, publish or perish. 21:46:06 Sikander: Nah, I am quite safe even if I don't publish, but it's a nice mental exercise. 21:46:37 beach: well, I'm still in the "publish or perish" phase... 21:47:13 Sikander: Ouch! Sorry to hear that! Would you like to do the "editor-buffer" API with me, so that you can get an article out of it? 21:47:28 -!- benny [~user@i577A80DB.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:36 beach: heheh! I'm a physicist, so that wouldn't really help me :) 21:47:43 Darn! 21:48:32 benny [~user@i577A80DB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:34 So that means I never had formal training on coding practices, and just learn from books, examples, other people's code... 21:49:13 And just messing around with things to keep me occupied and hopefully learn something in the process. 21:49:33 Phoodus: True, and there is a delicate balance there between wanting to teach the students what you think they need to know (and them hating it), and trying to please the students so that you come across as a good teacher (and your not teaching them anything of value). 21:50:15 Sikander: Xof is another example of that being a successful career path. 21:51:34 beach: How so? 21:52:21 Sikander: Physicist dabbling in CS, eventually becoming very good at it, now doing it full time with great success. 21:52:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:30 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:42 beach: Ah. Well, I'm sort of toying with the idea of going more towards computational physics. My previous job (before going back to academia) was for a company that made science simulators for the European Space Agency. 21:54:08 beach: I both learned quite a lot there, as well as contribute quite a lot (if I say so myself). 21:54:14 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 21:54:18 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:54:18 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 Sikander: Congratulations! I am sure you will do quite well! 21:55:19 Well, in the case that physics doesn't work out, I'm happy to know that CS might be an option. 21:55:57 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.17.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:03 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:18 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:02 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:59:32 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:20 I've been looking for examples of code where something is parsed into an ast, and then interpreted. E.g. I saw that parse-js parses javascript into a nice ast. Is there an example of how to "evaluate" such an ast? 22:01:50 sicp contains lots of interpreter 22:01:55 interpreters 22:02:01 Sikander: #1=(eval '#1) 22:02:14 Sikander: #1=(eval '#1#) 22:02:26 tcr: Ah, thanks 22:02:31 Sikander: As I recall, SIOD/Guile was organized like that. 22:02:39 Sikander, common-lisp.net/project/cl-walker/ 22:03:09 Thanks for the suggestions 22:03:29 Sikander, also http://bc.tech.coop/blog/040512.html 22:03:40 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:04:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:37 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@236-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:08:55 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 22:09:33 ldunn [~user@d110-32-148-138.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:08 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1DB17.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-89-226.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:03 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-148-138.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:14:03 ldunn [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 22:15:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:18:11 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:20:02 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-37.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:22:00 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@host139-105-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:25:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:24 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:49 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:02 hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:01 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:13 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 22:31:09 abugosh [~Adium@static-71-179-170-41.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:21 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:33:08 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 22:33:16 -!- ssideris [~sideris@93-97-178-232.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:22 -!- amos__ [~amos@host86-147-211-39.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:33 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:41:52 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:49:45 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:49 -!- me4 [user@091-141-116-193.dyn.orange.at] has left #lisp 22:50:52 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-47-235.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:28 -!- khrum42 [~khrum42@2001:a60:f05d:1::dead] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:48 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:18 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:26 -!- abugosh [~Adium@static-71-179-170-41.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:47 brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm087073.sitm.nt.ngn4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:58:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6C2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 23:02:17 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:03:08 -!- seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E46B16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:03:32 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host7-215-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:32 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-48-212.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:46 what do you think about this whole "cons considered harmful" stuff from Xah Lee? was there a discussion around that somewhere I can go look at? 23:07:13 i wouldn't be concerned about any stuff coming from Xah Lee 23:07:26 -!- brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm087073.sitm.nt.ngn4.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:09:06 stassats: aha, understood. thanks :) 23:10:06 and the only thing i can say about "cons considered harmful" is that you shouldn't forget that there are other data structures 23:15:29 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-146-3.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:16:12 qbomb [~Q@208.86.10.246] has joined #lisp 23:16:34 I have a question regarding style. I have a function A that calls functions B and C. However, B and C are used only by A and only useful to A. 23:16:46 Should I define B and C inside A in an flet? 23:16:53 Or should I keep them separate? 23:17:29 I like to use flet when the bodies can make useful reference to local variables to shorten and clarify things. 23:17:45 But they're also handy for plain old local functions too. 23:18:01 *Xach* is glad slime now shows arglists for flet/labels 23:18:24 I forgot to say that indeed, the bodies use local variables. 23:18:53 i usually use flet for some not very large functions, though i don't think there is any set of rules i follow 23:19:31 However, the definition of A seems rather large now, about 65 lines 23:19:58 In fact, the flet of B and C is larger than the actual body of A 23:20:33 I'm worried that it might be completely illegible. 23:20:50 paste it and you can get the American Lisp Idol treatment 23:21:04 and European! 23:21:36 *Sikander* is a bit ashamed of his code. 23:21:41 Ok, one sec. 23:21:41 *Xach* knows the feeling 23:22:01 Sikander: Ed Catmull says "Show your work every day. Everyone gets embarrassed. Get over it." 23:22:09 And he's pretty smart, so. 23:22:51 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:19 konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 23:23:19 *stassats* isn't happy about s-sql, constructs queries using good ol' FORMAT 23:23:33 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:24:14 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:00 For those that are interested, it is a function that (more or less) parses the line address spec of ed: http://paste.lisp.org/+2FXW 23:25:12 trying to see how good INHERITS will mix up with lisp 23:25:13 Any and all insults are welcome 23:25:30 as long as they apply to the code 23:25:56 i'd say flets are ok here 23:27:00 Sikander: and learn about (setf values) 23:27:20 stassats: ? 23:27:37 and unlearn RETURN-FROM in FINALLY 23:27:39 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-57-82-249-53-249.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:43 clhs values 23:27:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 23:27:53 values is an accessor 23:27:54 Sikander: where is the description of the ed line address spec? 23:28:08 stassats: ah, really? 23:28:12 nice 23:28:16 no, i'm joking! 23:28:23 stassats: d'oh! 23:28:52 i lied, the previous like was a joke 23:28:53 Xach: erm, I just looked at the original spec I found on the web, and mixed it with what I found in the man page 23:28:59 Sikander: i really like to use labels to make parsing state machines. 23:29:21 Sikander: each local function represents a state, and you return a local function from each as the new state. 23:29:39 then you funcall it on the next piece of input 23:29:43 Sikander: LOOP establishes a block named NIL around its body, so you can just use RETURN 23:29:48 Xach: Do you have a simple (or real-world) implementation I can look at? 23:30:03 Sikander: they always seem a bit unreadable after the fact, but they seem so fun to write... 23:30:10 *Xach* looks for an example 23:30:53 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:31:30 stassats: Wow, values _is_ setfable! 23:31:54 i know! 23:32:15 stassats: But after your inception-like jokes inside of jokes, I wasn't sure. 23:32:43 Sikander: HTTP header parser: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113973 23:33:18 there is also MULTIPLE-VALUE-SETQ, but you can't use it without a white beard 23:33:22 Xach: Thanks! 23:34:06 stassats: i used it in my youthful ignorance 23:34:50 Sikander: the first few functions are for convenience, the rest represent states 23:35:01 stassats: Should I send a patch for the slime fixes I posted? 23:35:36 Sikander: ACASE is a macro that takes an octet and does dispatching on its ascii character value, with some translation to keywords for control characters like CR and LF. 23:35:54 rtoym: oh, i'm forgetting to review your changes 23:36:17 stassats: No problem. There's no rush. 23:36:35 i should remember some key in GNUS to make it more noticeable 23:37:46 stassats: Do you know what frame-ip is really supposed to return? Is it supposed to return an sap for something valid and an integer for something bad? 23:37:55 rtoym: no need to send a patch this time, but the next time it'll be preferable 23:38:52 stassats: Sorry about that. I was a little lazy, especially since the functions were pretty small. (Plus I didn't have the originals around anymore so I'd have to get it again.) 23:39:16 Xach: Ok 23:39:35 Xach: Seems like an interesting way to do it. 23:39:39 in emacs it's as easy as C-x v = 23:40:01 stassats: Woo, thanks for pointing out values as an accessor! 23:41:22 rtoym: re frame-ip, no idea, i'm not really familiar what's in the CMUCL backend 23:41:48 stassats: Oh, right. I knew that, but for some reason, I thought I didn't have the CVS directories around. Silly me! 23:43:40 i wonder whether this kind of debugging using gdb is hard to get for SBCL too 23:43:42 stassats: One issue is that when frame-ip returns -1, something else is expecting and sap, so there's another error thrown. I changed it to an sap, so no error, but now it tries to disassemble at 0xffffffff. Just a warning for that, though. 23:44:14 slime doesn't have that for sbcl? It shouldn't hard, I suspect. 23:44:19 yeah, i see this inconsistency 23:45:16 maybe it should just ERROR? 23:46:50 I'd prefer that it didn't. But I guess that's ok too. It just kind of gets in the way if you're debugging and the debugger causes another error on top of that. 23:47:02 stassats, Xach: Thanks for your comments 23:47:33 Xach: It looks like a great way to do it; much cleaner than what I'm doing! 23:47:47 *Sikander* is content that he has learned something for today. 23:48:17 oxi [~oxi@adsl-89-217-169-115.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 23:48:18 hi 23:48:25 *stassats* desperately tries to unlearn something everyday 23:48:42 hi oxi 23:48:53 I don't get the joke of the last line: http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg 23:48:57 can anyone explain? 23:49:33 stassats: I'd like to try the stepping support. How do I get that? 23:49:41 *rtoym* should probably rtfm... 23:50:14 oxi: there is no joke! 23:50:15 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:16 in sbcl, you need to compile with a high debug 23:50:35 oxi: "My other car is a cdr" is the only lisp joke allowed 23:51:06 yeah, what does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin got to do with java? 23:51:19 what does Mr. Putin has to do with C? 23:51:25 because she's conservative? 23:51:30 oxi: You could ask the same question about almost any picture there. 23:51:32 doesn't make sense 23:51:35 ok :-) 23:51:36 what does the FSM have to do with Ruby? 23:51:39 haha, ok :-) 23:51:52 thanks guys 23:52:14 I think the only thing that really means something, is how they view themselves 23:52:40 yep, the diagonal 23:53:06 I like the last column, though. 23:53:22 i think it's time for a laugh 23:53:22 http://whatthefuckismyinformationsecuritystrategy.com/ 23:53:32 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:10 information security? what's this? 23:54:43 it's a bullshit generator! 23:55:17 Enforce trusted communication paths between critical assets by embracing a whitelist strategy to protect the enterprise crown jewels 23:55:22 classic 23:55:23 i'm going to use that one. 23:56:09 bougyman: Go away. 23:56:13 sorry. 23:56:28 i thought it was a little fun time on a friday night. 23:57:41 Well, it's too late for me, I'm turning in for the night. 23:57:51 Thanks for the help. Goodnight 23:58:02 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 23:58:53 -!- lemonade` [~lemonade`@pool-71-178-51-180.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]