00:02:51 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:03:31 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 00:05:13 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@c146-20.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:51 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:05:57 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 00:09:09 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:13:50 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Rebooting...] 00:15:42 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.30.246.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:04 jmbr [~jmbr@28.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 00:16:41 phf [~user@eris.glyf.org] has joined #lisp 00:18:27 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:45 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:07 where can i get the source code for "Strong Static Type Checking for Funcational Common Lisp" paper? i tried googling for some of the filenames from the paper, but i can't find anything 00:25:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:01 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:26:30 -!- _Pb [4b83c2ba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.131.194.186] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:26:49 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 00:28:05 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:29:39 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A6E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:30:25 davazp [~user@99.Red-88-25-185.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:04 -!- insanux [~hola@83.54.48.119] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:31:42 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:32:10 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:32:33 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:35:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:37:27 phf: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/boyer/ftp/diss/akers.pdf ? 00:37:39 ah the source...sorry 00:37:42 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:38:52 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.13.12] has joined #lisp 00:38:54 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:39:14 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:39:17 Darko3d [~chatzilla@129.15.131.140] has joined #lisp 00:39:41 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:39:44 hello, does anybody here have any experience with acl2 00:46:56 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:00 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:48:08 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:48:49 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 00:49:05 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:34 abugosh [~Adium@pool-96-255-9-14.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:40 psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-160-116.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:51 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-160-116.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 00:56:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-96-255-9-14.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:56:58 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:14 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:57:48 -!- Darko3d [~chatzilla@129.15.131.140] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 00:57:57 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:00:14 http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg Seen via identi.ca :) 01:01:14 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:01:52 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:01:53 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:02:00 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:02:29 sykopomp: Older than the Internet itself q: 01:03:11 I've only seen the "Other languages as seen by lispers" matrix :) 01:03:22 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:03:54 Cute. Who's the the guy that Haskell fans think about Lisp/ 01:03:58 ?, even. 01:04:44 Charles Darwin? 01:04:49 Looks like Darwin 01:04:53 Yep. 01:05:45 Ok. I wasn't quite sure. 01:05:52 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.156] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:05:56 Lots of pictures of Palin :p 01:06:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:22 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:09:01 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:09:03 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-10-97.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:10:33 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 01:11:11 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:23 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 01:11:56 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 01:15:49 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:16:16 -!- rbarraud_ 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02:36:33 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-2-173.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:38:26 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:38:33 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 02:39:21 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 02:40:49 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:45:16 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:46:05 -!- ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:19 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:42 -!- jaiball [~justin@c-76-119-131-178.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:50:35 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:51:43 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:44 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:54:49 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 02:58:03 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:58 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:00:36 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 03:02:05 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:32 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 03:03:54 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:42 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727202.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:04:49 ahoy mateys.... 03:04:56 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:05:29 what's a good way to walk a plist by key/value pairs (similar to maphash) 03:08:01 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:48 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-117-208.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:09:00 -!- Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:10:20 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:47 Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:34 Shaftoe: something like (loop :for (key val . rest) :on mylist :by #'cddr 03:18:45 ah. brilliant. 03:18:58 that loop macro is really a book unto itself 03:19:01 thanks 03:19:40 or something with DO, or whichever MAP* function it is that gives you successive sublists 03:21:26 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:22:07 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 03:22:29 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-154.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:24:56 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-2-173.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:40 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-2-173.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:26:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:27:50 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:30:18 Zetetic [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 03:30:18 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:30:27 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:55 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 03:31:09 -!- Zetetic is now known as Elench 03:34:11 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-75-85-93-10.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:12 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:03 Shaftoe: no need for the rest pattern variable. NIL is a wildcard. 03:37:44 oh 03:38:35 I see. 03:38:58 ok. how about this: if I wanted to selectively modify some of the plist values, how would I go about doing that? 03:39:40 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:39:49 marioxcc [~user@200.92.165.208] has joined #lisp 03:39:52 hi 03:39:57 -!- tama [~unf@pool-71-164-234-173.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2010/07/07 00:46:30 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 03:40:07 -!- coyo [~unf@2001:0:53aa:64c:10c2:5184:b85b:1552] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:20 how i can commit without move the current branch? (and make a new branch for the new commit) 03:40:32 sorry, wrong channel 03:40:36 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.165.208] has left #lisp 03:43:00 Shaftoe: you probably qould have to (loop for plist on plist by #'cddr for (key value) in plist ... [setf (second plist) ...]) 03:43:30 hmm 03:43:53 I've actually resorted to just building an entirely new plist by using collecting. I guess either way is similar though in that a new list has to be made 03:45:53 Good morning everyone! 03:46:25 Modifying cars of cons cells isn't the same as allocating cons cells of a new list. 03:46:27 Good morning beach! 03:46:56 However it's probably better to just build a new list. 03:50:52 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128015057.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:51:02 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:51:09 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:51:53 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 03:51:59 good morning 03:52:24 -!- ost`` is now known as ost 03:53:10 hohoho_ [~hohoho@airh128004019.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:54:06 Hello ost. 03:55:20 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128015057.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:04 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eoommqiubfwxluql] has joined #lisp 03:57:18 zard1989 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joined #lisp 06:35:00 -!- gonzojive [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:35:34 owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:36:09 I was looking for LISP stuff on google 06:36:14 came across this 06:36:16 http://perl.plover.com/yak/12views/samples/notes.html#sl-39 06:41:22 owned: Don't believe everything you read. Oh, and we have written it "Lisp" as opposed to "LISP" for a few decades now. 06:41:53 can you suggest a good book to start 06:42:04 I am really interested to learn it 06:42:06 minion: please tell owned about gentle 06:42:06 owned: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 06:42:08 owned: Do you know how to program in any other languages? 06:42:10 minion: please tell owned about pcl 06:42:11 owned: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:42:30 *sykopomp* thinks even people who have programmed in other languages should read Gentle. 06:42:41 minion: Yes 06:42:42 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``Yes''. 06:42:51 sykopomp: I actually started recommending Gentle for people who are getting into Java... 06:43:12 p_l: #haskell had no idea what madness you were talking about, in re metahaskelltypeprotocol 06:43:18 :( 06:43:24 yeah I think PCL is a bit heavy for people getting started 06:43:24 all because of its wonderful graphs about references 06:43:47 sykopomp: Probably differently phrased... not to mention half of the juicy stuff is hidden inside language extensions 06:44:10 p_l: I loved the graphs! 06:44:14 sykopomp: try asking them for comprehensive guide on abusing the type system to its limits :D 06:44:52 p_l: I'm afraid. Every time I go into #haskell, they seem to be spewing some incomprehensible moonspeak about endofunctors, arrows, and categories. 06:45:02 :( 06:45:18 nice folks, though. 06:45:21 sykopomp: ... well, you wanted the crazy type system extensibility... they use math with crazy fucked up names 06:46:39 p_l: it makes haskell seem so magical sometimes. 06:46:59 yeah, they are stealing our thunder ;-) 06:47:02 less so when you realize that they use paragraph-long names for things which are actually extremely simple 06:47:09 Why Lisp never became main stream 06:47:16 Is that due to libraries 06:47:18 owned: no 06:47:21 minion: beating the averages 06:47:22 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 06:47:24 hm. 06:47:29 owned: it's due to very complex history 06:47:37 owned: Does it bother you that it's not mainstream? 06:47:45 I want to know 06:47:48 the politics 06:47:54 must be interesting 06:47:55 owned: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html 06:48:10 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-4-44.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:48:15 Ralith: well, they use paragraph-long descriptions to tell you they want to assign to a variable, and then they write a several-hundred-function definition in two lines of code with <>, =<<>><><>, $@!, and such. 06:48:19 owned: You might get some clues from this article: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 06:48:55 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-4-44.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:49:21 Java better watch out, now that quicklisp is coming. 06:49:32 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-4-44.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:45 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-4-44.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:50:50 -!- rme [rme@clozure-769EB638.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:50:50 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-121-193.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:51:03 beach: Thanks for the article 06:51:07 really interesting 06:51:23 Sure, no problem. Glad you like it. 06:51:35 Is it possible to code in lisp on OSX 06:51:54 Yes. 06:51:58 owned: of course 06:52:01 I'm afraid we only support MINIX. 06:52:31 owned: sure it is! 06:52:41 owned: I suggest you get LispWorks. 06:52:46 ok 06:52:51 going to get it 06:52:53 beach: on OSX?... 06:53:03 When there's CCL? :) 06:53:22 sykopomp: I think someone who is willing to pay for a Mac should pay for the Lisp implementation as well. 06:54:01 beach: you could talk him into paying Clozure Associates. 06:54:03 At present I hand produce my exe's from x86f/fasl's with cat. Is there a consensus yet on a standard app to use instead? 06:54:21 cisticola: sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die? :) 06:54:38 isn't it inaccurate to say "lisp never became main stream" ... I thought it was on the cover of forbes magazine in the 80s 06:55:04 just like ruby on rails 06:55:05 beach: I'm not sure whether that's mean or genius. 06:55:14 leaning towards the latter. 06:55:20 Ralith: Thanks! 06:55:35 benny: You are assuming that people who say that intend to be accurate. That is not at all the case. 06:55:56 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-71-173.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:55:59 benny: They have an agenda, and they are willing to say anything to push it. 06:56:43 not all of them, but some of them 06:57:10 also it's just historical lack of knowledge frequently 06:57:11 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-4-44.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:59:00 What does being on the cover of a magazine have to do with being mainstream? 06:59:50 Zhivago: depends on the definition of "mainstream" 07:02:02 "forbes magazine" is not the same as "billy's crazy world of programming fun magazine" 07:02:13 sykopomp: I do lots of small things and am trying to avoid consuming disk space with large numbers of massive exe's in /usr/bin. binfnt-support brings up cmu or sbcl as required. 07:02:39 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:03:16 trying to grok the slime/swank code. I saw this in the function slime-repl in swank.lisp. (setq *** ** ** * * (car values) 07:03:37 (setq *** ** ** * * (car values) 07:03:38 /// // // / / values 07:03:38 +++ ++ ++ + + form) 07:04:18 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:04:33 what exactly is the need for this? 07:04:38 <_8david> step 1: look up how setq works 07:04:41 <_8david> step 2: look up what *** is 07:04:43 clhs * 07:04:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_st.htm 07:06:40 _8david: thanks. I didn't know about those * ** *** variables 07:07:19 cisticola, alternatively, make a bunch of differently named symlinks to a single binary? 07:07:53 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:07:55 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:10:36 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:10:40 nus: That's a thought 07:11:06 -!- galdor_ is now known as galdor 07:11:48 busybox is an interesting example of that 07:14:46 homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has joined #lisp 07:15:35 <_8david> vu3rdd: they are quite useful interactively 07:15:47 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-252-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:16:07 I googled and came up with many different lisp tools for building exe's, I am pretty good at backing the wrong horse but it does not look as if there is any opinion on them, never mind a clear favourite. 07:16:40 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A294.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:57 _8david: thanks. 07:17:16 cisticola: if what you're doing is writing a lot of small utilities, using clisp + scripts might work, too. 07:17:25 cisticola: many implementations come with their own facility for that. there are always trade-offs: some charge money for it, others create huge binaries 07:18:10 vu3rdd: that code looks nearly like Haskell o_O :D 07:18:46 p_l: :-) 07:19:05 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:18 Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:05 cisticola: building executable images is easy. Building *small* images is hard. There's only one abortive tool for SBCL that I know of, which doesn't work anymore (it used some internal stuff that changed), and as a whole it's quite big problem (not only for Lisp, though other languages have it IMHO easier) 07:23:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 07:24:05 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:26:20 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-71-173.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:26:42 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 07:27:00 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:08 Oh well, I will work through my list of exe building tools + the symlink option, see what works and is easier than hand glueing fasls 07:30:31 -!- khrum42 [~khrum42@ppp-88-217-23-80.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:31:08 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:23 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:31:39 -!- phaer [~phaer@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:36:50 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:40:02 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 07:40:31 cist: Are you aware of ECL? 07:46:02 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:46:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-52-32.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:20 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:39 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.234] has joined #lisp 07:47:33 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 07:48:54 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:11 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:54:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:56:40 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-173.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:01:14 weirdo [~sthalik@c146-20.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:01:30 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 08:02:39 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.250] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:22 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:11:34 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:14:37 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:14:56 hello lispers 08:16:26 hello kiuma 08:17:20 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-25-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:23:58 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 08:24:18 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 08:24:28 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:29:44 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:11 http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html someone gave this to me 08:34:15 who is that? 08:34:29 Ralith: you there 08:34:36 Those articles are awesome 08:34:39 thank you 08:34:42 Made a fortune by programming viaweb in CL (using clisp) and selling it to yahoo to become yahoostore). 08:35:24 So he's an existance proof! :-) 08:36:24 every IT professional should read such enlightening articles 08:36:43 Sure. 08:36:50 owned: do you know SICP too? 08:36:55 minion: tell owned about SICP 08:36:55 owned: please look at SICP: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 08:37:33 These are an enlightening book and video lectures. 08:37:35 Thanks I will look in to that 08:37:51 videos too? 08:37:53 awesome 08:37:56 thank you 08:38:14 owned: and there are web page with translations of the code to other languages too. 08:38:37 CL: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ and http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages 08:38:40 http://twb.ath.cx/ebooks/sicp.pdf looks dead 08:39:01 Get it from mitpress. (I like HTML). 08:39:23 HTML will do 08:39:58 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-82-213.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:40:20 It's the whole twb.ath.cx that seems down. 08:40:32 tfb [~tfb@92.40.251.43.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:41:05 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-83-171.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:42:25 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc4-midd16-2-0-cust402.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:19 -!- homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:44:42 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:42 owned_ [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:45:48 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:46:23 -!- owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:46:23 -!- owned_ is now known as owned 08:49:44 -!- symbole_ 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[delta@devio.us] has joined #lisp 09:32:06 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:32:07 http://nakkaya.com/2010/08/24/a-micro-manual-for-lisp-implemented-in-c/ 09:33:58 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:36:40 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc4-midd16-2-0-cust402.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:44 Garai [~Garai@62.32.150.2] has joined #lisp 09:39:11 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:39:11 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:39:11 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:39:11 -!- Tordek [tordek@free.blinkenshell.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:39:11 -!- bougyman [bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:39:11 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:39:11 -!- sonnym 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[~ziarkaen@87.112.30.246.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:59 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:51:49 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:08 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:52:24 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 09:55:01 symbole_ [~symbole@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 09:56:20 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has joined #lisp 09:58:39 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.13.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:58:48 -!- symbole [~symbole@216.214.176.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:59:34 -!- Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 10:00:55 -!- homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has left #lisp 10:01:00 homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has joined #lisp 10:01:59 nus [~nus@81.24.80.50] has joined #lisp 10:01:59 -!- nus [~nus@81.24.80.50] has quit [Changing host] 10:01:59 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 10:04:17 mathrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:04:40 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:52 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:54 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.163.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:14:53 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:22:55 bbiaw. 10:23:17 *beach* wishes people would tell us why give us a URL, rather than just giving it to us without any comments. 10:26:38 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 10:27:21 -!- homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:27:48 beach: His intention was showing an article presumably interesting for the majority of the targeted audience. 10:29:28 I understand the intention. However, often when that happens the article is not at all interesting to many people here. 10:30:11 It would save a lot of energy if one person would add a single short phrase in order to avoid that dozens of people read the article in vain. 10:36:00 -!- mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has left #lisp 10:37:41 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.29.225] has joined #lisp 10:38:48 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:13 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:40 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:55 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:45:02 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 10:48:40 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.120.65.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:49:08 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.251.43.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:49:11 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 10:50:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kkqojeuvnxfwubbq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qkhjvtqkfbxbeyvk] has joined #lisp 10:51:12 -!- peterhil [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:51:46 I seem to have upset the cart. 10:51:50 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eoommqiubfwxluql] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:52:01 delta: Don't worry about it. 10:52:14 beach, ever seen this? http://www.grammaticalframework.org 10:52:33 beach: I'm not. 10:52:41 nus: I don't know, what is it about? 10:54:19 as the site says: "GF was first created in 1998 at Xerox Research Centre Europe, Grenoble, in the project Multilingual Document Authoring. At Xerox, it was used for prototypes including a restaurant phrase book, a database query system, a formalization of an alarm system instructions with translations to 5 languages, and an authoring system for medical drug descriptions." 10:55:12 it's an NLP processing abstraction, used by some projects to write multilingual software 10:56:48 Looks interesting. Did you have any particular use in mind? 10:58:15 tangentially... re i18n done right... 10:58:35 nus: Hmm, yeah, that might be worth considering. 10:58:50 nus: It looks too good to be true somehow. 10:59:22 Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:59:22 these project seems to have done something concrete: http://www.talk-project.org/index.php?id=237 10:59:28 (based on GF) 10:59:42 *this project* 11:01:00 peterhil [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:04:17 Maybe I could use it to write a spelling/grammar checker for Vietnamese. 11:05:12 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:05:24 Hello. 11:05:33 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@109-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:05:41 hello kami 11:15:06 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:17:04 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:17:37 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:59 Joreji_ [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:20:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:13 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@109-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 11:32:53 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:35:51 beach, another interesting 'proof of concept' project using GF: http://www.cse.chalmers.se/alumni/bringert/xv/pizza/ 11:39:52 homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has joined #lisp 11:39:58 Interesting! 11:40:14 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:40:25 -!- Garai [~Garai@62.32.150.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:39 Garai [~Garai@62.32.150.2] has joined #lisp 11:41:57 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:27 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 11:46:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:50:25 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:19 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:20 xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has joined #lisp 12:03:34 nus: interesting topic 12:04:55 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:07:11 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:07:14 surely it is, the ages old *nix i18n/m17n approach barely covers the basic needs... 12:09:28 the only half working model of collaboration on the approach -- gnu gettext, .po, .mo, and the tools -- are pain in the ass... the results of such "i18n" are less then satisfactory 12:12:05 oh... yes there's another half-working model (which mostly mimics the *nix one) the much touted M$ scheme. 12:13:14 -!- erg [~erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:16:17 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.29.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:16:41 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:18:28 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 12:19:41 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-203.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:26 What about Macintosh's approach to the problem of internationalization? 12:20:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:48 It's also quite labor intensive, but gives good results. 12:22:38 -!- Amadiro_ [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 12:23:02 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:23:09 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-45.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:28:11 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23D4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:59 erg [~erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:01 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:33:23 jaiball [~justin@c-76-119-131-178.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:49 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 12:34:32 one also have to account into translation styles... GNU world's is horrible 12:34:42 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-52-32.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:36:33 which anyone who tried to follow a bugreport sent from a machine running in non-C locale can attest to 12:37:15 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-87-135.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:42:41 urandom_ [~user@p548A49A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:44 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:00 -!- Garai [~Garai@62.32.150.2] has left #lisp 12:46:21 on the subject of i18n/l10n -- has anyone found cl-l10n useful? http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-l10n/ 12:48:07 no 12:48:12 m17n 12:48:47 Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:48:51 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0AE36.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:49:38 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 12:50:33 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:51:07 p_l: well, in the unix world, it seems to me that CLI is programming language level, and therefore should not be translated. I cannot stand indeed when a unix command issues its message other than in English, and scripts procesing their output neither. 12:51:25 p_l: IMO, internationalization should be restricted to GUI (ie. useless applications). 12:52:01 ogamita: have you worked with VMS? it *always* includes the message identifier (and unlike Windows ones, they are somehow understandable strings) first, no matter the locale 12:52:32 p_l: IBM systems did that too, and indeed, it's a good solution for scripts. 12:52:50 They also included a full documentation of all the possible output messages. 12:53:27 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Quit: Linking out] 12:54:28 I like to do that for my log messages too. Lately I had to work with an application that didn't have message IDs, and it wasn't so nice to have to match the log messages with regexps... Happily, I was able to automatize the process somewhat, but still not nice. 12:56:10 Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has joined #lisp 12:57:53 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:59:44 i18n definitions in cl-l10n can be functions. they are effectively functions that implicitly dispatch on *locale*, which can be a list of preferred locales 13:01:02 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:01:23 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@c146-20.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:06 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:02:11 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qkhjvtqkfbxbeyvk] has left #lisp 13:04:11 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:35 ogamita: on VMS each "standard error message" (there's a db file of those with numeric IDs to use from within code) has text text representation, I have no idea how "3rd party" can hook into that 13:11:44 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:56 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:04 -!- homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has quit [] 13:29:07 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:31:10 Zetetic [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:32 Elench [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 -!- Zetetic [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:01 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:33:08 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:33:17 hey 13:34:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AD4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:36 right now I'm doing something like (remove-if-not #'(lambda (element) (member element list)) other-list) 13:34:42 any built in function that does the same? 13:35:00 set-difference / intersection? 13:36:46 intersection would work, if I can supply a key function 13:36:59 seems like I can! 13:37:01 Thanks! 13:38:41 cool (: 13:38:43 OliverUv: but if you're working with a hash-table-friendly equality predicate, you might want to use a hash table; i doubt set-difference/intersection do such a thing. 13:39:08 Hm, it isn't specified from which list intersection returns elements 13:39:37 OliverUv: Not that deprecation really means anything in CL, but remove-if-not is deprecated. The "preferred" form is (remove-if #'(lambda (element) (not (member element list))) other-list) 13:39:48 I actually want to intersect (slot-value element 'name) with a-name 13:39:57 what 13:40:04 why would they deprecate remove-if-not? 13:40:10 sellout: no, no. complement is the thing. 13:40:13 OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:25 if not for renaming it to remove-unless 13:40:29 that would be ok 13:41:19 Xach: Ah, right. 13:41:36 how to interpret this function definition? 13:41:37 (intersection list1 list2 &key key (test #'eql sb-impl::testp) (test-not nil sb-impl::notp)) 13:41:42 er wait, not that one 13:42:02 this one: 13:42:03 (member item list &key key (test #'eql sb-impl::testp) (test-not #'eql sb-impl::notp)) 13:42:16 the (test #'eql sb-impl::testp) confuses me 13:42:18 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:27 OliverUv: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss172_w.htm has more context re deprecation 13:42:29 I know I have a key called test, which defaults to #'eql 13:42:39 but what does sb-impl::testp do? 13:42:56 OliverUv: testp is a variable that will tell you whether the value was passed in or not. 13:42:57 OliverUv: it allows you to determine if an argument was passed or if the default value was used instead. 13:43:13 I thought lambda lists for keys were either symbol (symbol symbol) or ((symbol symbol) symbol) 13:43:19 OliverUv: now you know better. 13:43:20 ahh right 13:43:23 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:43:26 yeah I forgot that part, thanks 13:43:35 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:47 retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has joined #lisp 13:45:09 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:46:28 ugh, I have remove-if-not in several parts of my code 13:46:54 OliverUv: It's not like it's really going to go away anytime soon  like, ever. 13:46:59 but I feel like removing them now, because my uni will probably use this code until there is a new CL in circulation (forever) 13:47:58 Why did i never know i needed several channels on screen at once? 13:48:11 Whoops, wrong channel, that would be why it's a bad idea then 13:48:48 OliverUv: deprecation of remove-if-not is a joke, imo. 13:49:59 yeah 13:50:05 well, it's really deprecated, but the alternative is not much more readable 13:50:13 I wish I had an issue tracker 13:50:29 I think the alternative is less readable 13:50:29 *Xach* groans at the "cost of non-adoption" section of the FUNCTION-COMPOSITION issue 13:50:31 this is one of the first suggestions for a revision of the standard (which probably we'll never see) 13:51:07 if this is one of their first suggestions it feels like they are grasping for blades 13:51:14 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-87-135.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:51:15 hahaha 13:52:02 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-203.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:52:04 also, -IF-NOT and :test-not are why cl is bloated 13:52:15 not by any means the two ways of printing integers as roman numerals 13:52:20 *antifuchs* giggles 13:53:32 antifuchs: if we wanted an 80% solution, better standardised support for serialisation, and less for dynamic redefinition, might have addressed bloat efficiently 13:53:53 Xach: this issue satisfies amusing-p 13:54:01 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:05 pkhuong_: sure. I wouldn't have minded less compile-time magic. but then, this is what we have now, and I can't see :test-not or -if-not adding such a burden (: 13:55:19 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-203.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:44 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.223.65.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:55:53 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.120.65.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:55:58 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 13:56:38 Let's say that you do use REMOVE-IF-NOT and the powers that be eliminate REMOVE-IF-NOT in the future, wouldn't be trivial to provide your own implementation in your code? I would say that it would be a non-issue, then. 13:57:00 rrice: most of the standard library is trivial to code. That's not the point. 13:57:17 I wouldn't like my code breaking in my absence 13:57:26 when there is something I could have done about it 13:58:09 Xach: this issue satisfies amusing-p 13:58:12 made me giggle 13:58:19 it does so (constantly t). 13:59:09 even (complement boring-p) 13:59:15 Any ideas on how to make writing ratios numbers and strings to a string fast? I tried format, but that took up fairly much time. Now I'm using (with-output-to-string ... (write ...)) 13:59:47 I would like constantly and complement functions though 14:00:11 format should be fine, as long as you bind *print-pretty* to nil around it 14:00:16 but I don't see the need for removing -if-not unless they are replacing them with -unless, which is more readable 14:00:17 jsnell_: no, it's too slow 14:00:36 rwiker [~rwiker@219.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:40 writing json objects is currently ~100 times slower than reading them, thus that is too slow ): 14:00:52 OliverUv: your code won't break as long as you use the CL package. 14:00:57 madnificent: use the write-* functions? 14:01:01 OliverUv: any other standard will specify a different package. 14:01:08 dlowe: interesting, I'll search :D 14:01:08 pjb: ah, nice1 14:01:31 And most lisp implementations in the forseable future will provide the CL package, even if implementing also the FUTURE-CL package. 14:01:32 madnificent: you might be able to get away with just using WRITE 14:01:52 pjb: yeah that makes a lot of sense 14:02:52 madnificent: How are you measuring it? 14:02:54 dlowe: write gave me a major performance increase, yet it is not fast enough yet :) 14:03:16 madnificent: remains write-sequence. 14:03:51 madnificent: not fast enough for what? 14:03:56 Xach: I'm measuring it by writing out a big json object (1000 key-values) 1000 times. I look at when the execution started and when it ended and see how many items that gives me per second. I only create the object once etc etc. 14:04:18 pkhuong_: if the json library reads 100 times faster then it writes, then the writing should probably get somewhat more attention 14:04:28 pkhuong_: it was designed to be fast so... 14:04:43 madnificent: and if socket IO takes another order of magnitude more time? 14:04:45 pjb: and how would I convert a number to a string quickly? 14:05:07 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:05:29 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-26-15.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:52 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-203.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05:55 -!- Elench [~user@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:20 pkhuong_: then that is not my issue :) (but I doubt that will be the case, this is ~5kb per object and the json objects may come from a local socket) 14:06:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:24 madnificent: look, I usually use clisp, and for this kind of things, clisp usually is faster than what I could write in lisp. (clisp compiles my code to a bytecode VM, but compiles his codes with gcc). 14:07:48 madnificent: but I hear that with SBCL you can write code as efficient or more efficient than what the implementation provide. 14:08:01 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-26-15.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:08:14 pjb: write-sequence seems to be slower than write-string on sbcl 14:08:29 The fastest way to convert an interger to a string is doing it in a base congruent to the underlying hardware. Ie. converting to hex will be usually faster than converting to decimal. 14:08:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:08:43 salva_ [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:46 madnificent: less (ad-hoc) polymorphism usually means more speed. 14:08:48 write-sequence should be faster, since it doesn't have to encode the characters... 14:08:53 pkhuong_: yup 14:08:57 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 14:09:32 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has left #lisp 14:09:41 madnificent: do you know the base conversion algorithm? 14:09:42 pjb: sorry, I get 2000+ objects when writing the key with write-string and about 1750 when writing with write-sequence on sbcl (don't know why) 14:10:17 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:10:18 pjb: /10 and write out the number? or are there smarter ways? (wikipedia will likely help in case there'd be a faster way, but tell me) 14:10:28 That's it. 14:10:56 I don't understand why writing and reading JSON encoded objects should take the same time, nor why it's important that they do. 14:10:58 *madnificent* goes profiling first :) thanks for the hints 14:11:06 But as I said, if you write in base 16, or 32, or 64, it's faster because you can just shift instead of /10. 14:11:12 codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has joined #lisp 14:11:20 pjb: yes, but the json format is in base 10... 14:11:35 pjb: with 10, you can multiply and shift. 14:11:36 sexp formats are more accomodating... 14:11:56 pjb: I could make an approximation for floats though, that probably wouldn't hurt 14:11:58 Is it just me, or does lisp syntax really resemble a parse tree? Is that how it does all the cool macro stuff? 14:12:08 codygman: you got it! 14:12:16 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:26 pjb: sexp formats are nicer, but they don't play as nice with couchdb 14:12:29 (incf codygman) 14:12:53 pjb: I'm just learning it, and that's the first thing I thought of when I saw it! 14:12:54 madnificent: in any case, profiling is in order. 14:13:14 codygman: it does all the cool macro stuff by working with a parse tree. The transparence of the syntax only makes it convenient (for some) 14:13:43 Have any of you guys used CL to run Neural Nets on information such as radio transmission signal and strength? 14:14:57 codygman: there are some macros that introduce gratuituous "keywords", such as loop, and they're often frowned upon by the purists, but otherwise indeed lisp syntax is rather bare, and you can consider the source as the parse tree. 14:15:48 codygman: have a look at the "Program Performance" section of: http://www.cliki.net/Performance 14:16:59 pjb: See I had a feeling with intense AI stuff lisp might operate faster than c/c++. At least in some cases, reading stuff at that link now. 14:17:07 codygman: see http://www.cliki.net/CL-CTRNN 14:17:28 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:12 pjb: I REALLY REALLY like that link :) I'll have to finish learning lisp though. I think the book I was reading was "the lisp book" or something. 14:18:24 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 14:18:48 codygman: as I see it, the mind is a symbolic computer (consious) working on a neural network substrate (unconsious). Therefore I have great hopes with lisp and AI, in the symblic<->neural network interface. 14:19:36 pjb: Exactly the reason I got into programming. I have these indescribable ideas in my head, that can only be shown with programming. 14:20:34 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:41 thousands of dicks scrolling across the screen at inconcievable speeds, in an ever mutating random pattern, self coherent and beautiful, as above, so below 14:20:48 then they're not indescribable 14:21:02 the mandeldick 14:21:53 16:19:36 pjb: Exactly the reason I got into programming. I have these indescribable ideas in my head, that can only be shown with programming. 14:21:56 16:20:34 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:59 16:20:40 > thousands of dicks scrolling across the screen at inconcievable speeds, in an ever mutating random pattern, self coherent and beautiful, as above, so below 14:22:02 16:20:48 then they're not indescribable 14:22:03 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has left #lisp 14:22:16 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:08 *Xach* wonders what OliverUv is up to 14:24:13 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 14:24:29 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 14:24:48 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 sorry 14:25:04 To redeem myself I present further off-topic quotations: 14:25:05 14:25:05 14:25:06 Trying to find lasting happiness from relationships or possessions is like drinking salt water to quench your thirst. ~ Pema Chödrön 14:25:17 ...wonder how those newlines got there 14:25:52 I'm just going to shut up until I have a programming question again, that should increase my productivity by an infinity percent. 14:27:09 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:31 Zetetic [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 14:30:33 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:35 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:32:01 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 14:32:13 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@219.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:32:20 -!- Zetetic [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:39 -!- codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:33:01 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23D4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:58 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:34:24 codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has joined #lisp 14:34:42 -!- codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has left #lisp 14:34:45 codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has joined #lisp 14:35:58 So I've been reading the gigamonkeys.com practical lisp book. Any recommendations on other books? Is there a de facto lisp book? 14:36:56 PCL, if you already know how to code. 14:37:06 codygman: No de facto book. Practical Common Lisp is good. Paradigms of AI Programming is good. Many like "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction". 14:37:14 Keene's book on CLOS is helpful. 14:38:14 Xach, thanks for the advice. I find Lisp's syntax kinda cool lol. Well as long as your using emacs and slime :D 14:38:46 you may just be perverse enough to become a lisp programmer, then. 14:39:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:39:20 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 codygman i like ANSI Common Lisp 14:39:54 codygman: and also there's SICP. 14:39:55 paul graham 14:40:20 codygman: see http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20books 14:40:25 Fade, haha all my friends think I'm crazy but I don't care. I see myself getting way more down with lisp than c/c++. 14:40:34 pjb: checking it out now. 14:41:11 codygman: yes, check the cliki.net/performance page, there are reference about programmer productivity too. 14:41:14 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.250] has joined #lisp 14:41:18 ANSI Common Lisp is not a good book for learning ANSI Common Lisp. 14:41:23 I learned with PG's ANSI Common Lisp, but it has been superseded by PCL. 14:42:01 "On Lisp" is still the best treatment of macros. 14:42:22 Fade: Yeah, PCL has been pretty awesome at describing everything. I'll definitely read that and "On Lisp". 14:43:01 But "Casting Spels in Lisp" is the funnier treatment of macros. http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 14:43:45 pjb: that sounds hilarious, I'll have a look. 14:44:27 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:58 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:46:14 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-196-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:51:19 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.192.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:53:05 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Quit: red1ynx] 14:54:43 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:01:42 Let Over Lambda is a funny read on macros, too 15:02:51 ogamita [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:08:16 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:19 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:37 rwiker [~rwiker@219.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:48 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:14:48 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-121-193.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-egzqsekruncaytjn] has joined #lisp 15:19:14 bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:42 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:55 abstrakt [~abstrakt@unaffiliated/abstrakt] has joined #lisp 15:25:06 there's this video I saw recently, it's almost like an hour long, some conference, think maybe a java conference, where there's a guy who's talking about why functional programming is good and maybe OOP is not all that, I can't find it on google, anyone know what I'm talking about? 15:25:26 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 15:25:39 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:06 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:26:06 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:27:01 abstrakt: no idea about that exact one, but in similar vein there's "Objects Have Failed" presentation 15:27:16 got it, rich hickey 15:27:18 "are we there yet" 15:27:27 p_l: yay! cool I'll look that one up too 15:27:39 -!- codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29:31 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:29:44 Spewns [~jake@client68-83.wpa.siue.edu] has joined #lisp 15:30:10 p_l: presentation eh? I can only find an essay on google right now 15:30:17 p_l: got a link to the presentation variety? 15:30:43 is the "essay" in PDF? 15:30:50 if yes, then it might be it :D 15:32:13 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:34:24 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-26-15.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:50 disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E485.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:46 serichsen [~user@f048197018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 Good evening! 15:38:00 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-26-15.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:38:02 lo 15:43:27 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:44:59 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:23 _mathrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 15:46:10 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:46:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:01 Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:50:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:51:49 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:00 -!- Spewns [~jake@client68-83.wpa.siue.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:01:49 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 -!- ogamita [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:04:20 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.223.65.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: tfb] 16:06:32 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:11:58 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:56 Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:15 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:47 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:26 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 16:19:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:19:32 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:21:06 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:35 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:37 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:21:58 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:24:02 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.192.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:24:30 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.192.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 16:24:54 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:02 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-25-54.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:29:10 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.192.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:14 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-116-43.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:31:17 -!- peterhil [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:31:31 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:32:23 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34:08 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:38:37 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:40:43 -!- OEP [~OEP@c-76-27-129-70.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:42:03 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-116-43.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:42:09 peterhil [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:42:10 codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has joined #lisp 16:42:55 are top down parsers easy to implement in Lisp? 16:43:11 Yes 16:43:12 I was thinking of making a specialized type calculator. Originally thinking python, but really want to learn some Lisp. 16:43:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:34 Any good tutorials or books you could point me to? 16:43:47 Do you know any Lisp already? 16:44:36 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:45:28 beach: a bit, i'm on chapter 6 of the practical common lisp book. 16:45:34 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:45:52 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:46:03 nus [~nus@81.24.80.50] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 -!- nus [~nus@81.24.80.50] has quit [Client Quit] 16:46:06 codygman: So you want something specific related to top-down parsers? 16:46:08 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 16:46:26 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 16:46:29 codygman: There is not much to know that would be Lisp specific. Any book on parsing would do. 16:47:22 beach: Alright, that's all I needed to know. I'm going to read the parsing techniques book then. 16:48:40 There might be something interesting in PAIP, especially when he talks about NLP. 16:48:54 minion: Please tell codygman about PAIP. 16:48:54 codygman: please look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 16:50:01 Oooooh! I like the sound of that. Thanks... minion. haha. 16:50:42 codygman: It's a great book and generally the second one I recommend after the introductory one. 16:51:19 The introductory one = practical common lisp? 16:51:43 Yes, or "gentle" for those who have no prior experience of programming. 16:51:55 minion: Please tell codygman about Gentle! 16:51:55 codygman: please see Gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:52:08 minion: Thanks! 16:52:08 you're welcome 16:52:13 -!- delta is now known as Delta 16:52:47 *sykopomp* hearts gentle. 16:53:26 I just think the box diagrams are a bad idea from a pedagogical point of view. 16:53:28 beach: Ah, the other book I was told about. Recommended to me if I didn't have prior experience programming. Does it cover different topcs than practical common lisp? 16:54:36 beach: really? I felt like the boxes really helped me understand things. 16:55:15 Bronsa [~bronsa@host152-175-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:55:17 codygman: It's just a very different book. The idea that gigamonkey had for PCL was to show how you could use Common Lisp for practical tasks that kids these days find interesting (right gigamonkey?). "gentle" is more about telling you the basics without trying to seduce any particular group. 16:55:18 codygman: It's a more basic introduction to lisp, and sort of also serves as a general introduction to programming. 16:55:44 codygman: PCL also actually focuses on things that you can get done, whereas gentle is more practice exercises. 16:55:51 sykopomp: I think they are a bad idea because they lie, so when you come to side effects, you have to admit that they don't work anymore. 16:56:18 Gentle also doesn't cover CLOS, which is really too bad. 16:56:46 Thanks sykopomp. Also, what is CLOS? 16:56:48 beach: I guess I see that. 16:56:49 Lisp OO? 16:57:01 codygman: Common Lisp Object System. 16:57:14 minion: Please tell codygman about Keene! 16:57:15 codygman: direct your attention towards Keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/Keene 16:57:35 Oh my, i'm gonna fill my flash drive up! 16:57:47 you should fill your bookshelf up instead! 16:57:58 codygman: That last one, you'll have to buy, as is the case for PAIP. 16:58:05 these are all books worth having there. 16:58:16 *beach* agrees with sykopomp. 16:58:19 Alright, I'll be adding to my wishlist then! 16:59:07 there seems to be a copy of the Keene book for ~US$10 including shipping on Amazon. 16:59:16 tempting... 16:59:30 Oh wow, I might be able to pick that up tomorrow then. 16:59:41 -!- peterhil [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:59:45 beach: My copy of AMOP has started circulating around my workplace, too. 17:00:00 which is kind of a pity, because now I kinda miss it. :( 17:00:16 sykopomp: bittersweet, eh? 17:00:54 p_l: The whole satori-about-protocols thing I had this weekend happened about two days after I lent the book to my boss. 17:01:00 and now there's a waiting list for it :( 17:01:05 ;_; 17:01:42 Unfortunately, I have no idea where to find an unwatched scanner, I'd make you a PDF :D 17:02:40 I think I'll survive. 17:02:50 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 17:02:54 I might distract myself with some PAIP, or maybe order Keene's book (finally). 17:03:06 or (gasp) I could actually try programming and see how it goes. 17:03:13 minion: message for nyef: Do you think an ARMv6K device with 160MB ram (and linux 2.6) would be enough to play around with SBCL port? 17:03:13 i run on crux linux - http://www.crux.nu/ 17:03:23 minion: memo for nyef: Do you think an ARMv6K device with 160MB ram (and linux 2.6) would be enough to play around with SBCL port? 17:03:23 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 17:03:47 devinus [~devinus@ps23102.dreamhost.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:18 stupid question: does car/cdr/caddr/cons etc stand for anything? 17:04:31 devinus: yes 17:04:37 lisp primitives 17:04:41 cons = construct 17:04:42 of first order 17:05:03 CONS =CONStruct, CAR = Contents of Address Register, CDR = Contents of Data Register 17:05:09 Do you guys have a preferred GUI library? Is there lispQt? 17:05:11 construct ah 17:05:18 p_l: what! 17:05:21 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:05:33 p_l: Decrement Register 17:05:39 ah 17:05:41 sorry 17:05:52 must have gotten it somewhere incorrectly 17:06:09 codygman: there are several Qt bindings.. http://www.cliki.net/Qt 17:06:52 adeht: Thanks. Do most of you use Qt or is there a preferred gui library of the CL community? 17:07:22 codygman: there is no one library preferred by "the CL community" 17:07:27 as far as I know 17:08:13 codygman: as far as I know, there's not really any single, good, portable, and stable GUI library available. 17:08:21 codygman: but I liked ltk and cl-gtk2 17:08:29 LTK seems to be the closest thing. 17:09:00 codygman: I think people who want to get paid to write GUI apps in Lisp use LispWorks and its CAPI library. 17:09:11 hub [~i686@host178-22-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:09:24 mephisto_ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has joined #lisp 17:09:25 Is the verdict on Let Over Lambda still "It Stinks!"? 17:09:25 codygman: people who do it as a hobby use a variety of variously-baked things with no clear consensus that i can see. 17:09:47 Indeed, I've heard very good things about CAPI. 17:09:49 kroger [~user@187.59.128.167] has joined #lisp 17:10:06 LW just seems generally decent for deployment of individual desktop apps. 17:10:08 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@202.183.154.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:11:26 clx is one 17:11:45 segv [~mb@p4FC1A5F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:53 sykopomp: I liked it, myself 17:12:09 sykopomp: it's some hilarious reading, and it really shows you what's possible 17:12:30 sykopomp: sometimes, that's enough, even if you don't want to join in his complete insanity 17:12:37 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@202.183.154.31] has joined #lisp 17:12:39 The impression I'm getting from reading comments about it is that it's extremely smug-lisp-weenie. 17:12:57 phf [~user@eris.glyf.org] has joined #lisp 17:13:20 sykopomp: It is, but you'll find that's not an uncommon attitude in language-specific books 17:13:33 so that's not much of a ding on the book itself 17:14:06 where can i get the source code from the paper "Strong Static Type Checking for Functional Common Lisp"? i tried googling for the filenames, but got nothing 17:15:07 From what I've seen, lispers are so sensitive to the smugness stereotype that many go the opposite direction of loudly criticizing it 17:15:33 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:15:49 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@219.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:16:16 also can anyone recommend similar research/projects? that is putting static type constraints on a subset of common lisp 17:17:26 -!- retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:26 phf: ACL2 17:19:19 samo_ [~samo@88.200.108.138] has joined #lisp 17:19:53 -!- golgotha [~micro@www.bway.net] has left #lisp 17:20:32 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-140-224.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:14 micro_ [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:23 pkhuong_: I've just tried to add double handling to your sse-pack code: http://github.com/angavrilov/sbcl/commit/09059286e912e6437ac5fcb47c47b0cbf0dd898f 17:21:41 pkhuong_: Couldn't really test it, but at least it compiles and %make-sse-pack works in repl 17:23:01 angavrilov: there's no need for that right now. Using the double float versions only wastes a rex byte. 17:24:02 -!- disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E485.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ...] 17:24:11 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-egzqsekruncaytjn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:12 moreover, I only use the type information to direct which version of, e.g. xorpd or pxor to use. We don't actually have to track which it is at runtime. 17:24:17 retroj [~retroj@unaffiliated/retroj] has joined #lisp 17:24:24 pkhuong_: ECL works through C intrinsics, and they _require_ proper tracking of DF in the type system 17:25:02 no. Just cast. 17:25:09 the bits are the same. 17:27:48 pkhuong_: thank you 17:29:44 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:34 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:30:48 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:08 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:31:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33:54 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:08 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:25 rtoym: ping 17:43:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:45:09 peterhil [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 17:48:52 -!- hub [~i686@host178-22-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 17:49:04 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.192.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 17:51:36 jdz [~jdz@host93-24-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:51:43 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-109-7.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 17:53:08 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-35-243.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:58:18 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:55 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:59:57 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:00:03 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:07 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:03:13 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-43.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 18:03:24 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:03:54 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:06:01 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:05 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:29 pkhuong_: Casting doesn't work on MSVC: http://www.rhinocerus.net/forum/lang-asm-x86/256240-how-cast-using-msvc-intrinsics.html; therefore it is not acceptable for ECL 18:10:39 pkhuong_: tracking at runtime is almost exclusively so that results of expressions in repl would print with the appropriate representation 18:11:38 owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:12:24 pkhuong_: plus it should help with constants embedded directly in the code by e.g. macros 18:12:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:14:52 pkhuong_: boxing shouldn't happen in production code anyway 18:18:05 -!- owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: owned] 18:18:54 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:27 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:21:54 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-176-9.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:04 owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:22:17 fox [~~3@203-219-242-59.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 18:23:55 _idavid [~idavid@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 18:29:58 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:30:14 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-196.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:31:34 minion: logs 18:31:34 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 18:33:11 -!- wubo [80f40909@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:32 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-3-84.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:34:10 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-177-151.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:06 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.46] has joined #lisp 18:39:12 -!- _idavid [~idavid@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:40:06 khrum42 [~khrum42@ppp-93-104-68-49.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:33 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:42:07 -!- leadnose_ [leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 18:42:56 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:53 -!- abstrakt [~abstrakt@unaffiliated/abstrakt] has left #lisp 18:44:25 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.110.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:33 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:47:20 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:50:38 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-173.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 18:51:25 -!- Delta is now known as delta 18:52:41 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-140-224.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:52:53 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:53:00 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326555.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:18 -!- owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: owned] 18:54:21 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082AC9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:28 angavrilov: it doesn't really make sense to see SSE data as anything but a bunch of bits. The very instructions themselves make that very clear. 18:56:54 I'd be surprised if an union didn't work, even on msvc, and would probably go as far as calling that broken. 18:59:17 pkhuong_: since the very instructions themselves have different ops for int, float and double, their inventors obviously not agree with that 18:59:38 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 18:59:46 also, which way is easier to debug 18:59:53 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:00:01 angavrilov: ps aux 19:00:13 floating point code: when everything is printed as bits, or when the values are represented as normal floats 19:01:11 argh, angavrilov: how do you shuffle floating points values? 19:02:58 there's shufps - seems no worse than the int32 version, no? 19:03:49 only a couple shuffling instructions are supported; for the general case, you have to punt to integer operations. That's even acknowledged by the optimization guides: switching between the integer and floating point pipelines isn't disallowed, only not recommended for performance. 19:04:15 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:06:12 anyway, what's the big problem with distinguishing double and float in the type system? you can even generate mov?ps both for float and double if you like... 19:06:25 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.142] has joined #lisp 19:15:53 first, it lies to the programmer: there's only a single homogenous XMM register file. It also introduces gratuitous overhead when the runtime checks aren't elided away. 19:16:16 teurastaja [~Samuel@modemcable173.144-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:16:17 -!- _mathrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:17 fe[nl]ix: Yes? 19:17:26 For instance, if I want to xor SSE values, whether they're floats or not. If you track types at runtime, you'll end up branchoing on runtime type information, but all branches will end up performing the same thing, but with different opcodes. 19:18:08 -!- benny [~user@i577A1DCF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:18:48 your convsersations interesting i missed something 19:19:01 there's also support for a lot of integer bitwidths (8, 16, 32, 64 and some 128 bit operations, both signed and unsigned; should those be tracked at runtime too?) 19:19:51 heck, are non-temporal stores integer or floating-point instructions? 19:19:52 from the implementation point: no, because 1) they all are represented as __m128i in C 2) they are actively supposed to be mixed 19:19:52 -!- Guest6084 is now known as xristos 19:20:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:38 ZabaQ [~john.conn@149.121-84-212.ippool.ndo.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:45 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:27 rtoym: it only takes me ~6 seconds to clone git://common-lisp.net/projects/asdf/asdf.git 19:28:35 -!- kroger [~user@187.59.128.167] has left #lisp 19:28:41 on a slow computer with a pretty slow DSL 19:30:21 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:30:29 -!- bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:07 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:32:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:33:10 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:33:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 19:36:08 fe[nl]ix: Really? It took my mac quite some time. Don't remember how long, though. 19:36:47 prima_lu` [~user@95.158.0.250] has joined #lisp 19:37:45 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:16 rtoym: just downloaded it again, ~5.7s 19:44:20 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:46:12 fe[nl]ix: Oh well. Maybe it was something else that I was gitting. :-) Or maybe I'm just too old for all the new fangled stuff. 19:46:27 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:47:02 Bummer. debian doesn't ship cmucl with the x87 core. 19:47:40 I suspect they'd take recommendations from the author on what options to build with. 19:50:01 -!- peterhil [peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:50:19 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:50:39 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:51:35 It was on purpose: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=526584. But you can certainly test the x87 core on any x86 box. You just can't test that the autodetect works on boxes without sse2. 19:52:09 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-116-43.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:42 On the one hand, I've thought about dropping x87 support altogether. But on the other hand, it turns out to be a great reference when the sse2 core produces weird results. 19:54:23 gigamonkey [~user@c-24-7-84-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:44 mephist__ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has joined #lisp 19:58:06 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:58:18 timor [~timor@port-92-195-252-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:22 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 20:01:35 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:26 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:09:11 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-110-35.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:07 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-22-2.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:38 -!- prima_lu` [~user@95.158.0.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:50 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 20:14:23 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.169] has joined #lisp 20:15:14 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:20 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-64-251.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:16:40 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:52 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.11.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:14 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-35-243.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:20:29 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:30 heh, "Different implementations may choose to collapse and combine these stores inside the processor." 20:21:41 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-194-93.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:35 pkhuong_: How would your magic xor propagate types from its arguments, so that e.g. when used with known float-sse args the result would be known to be float too? (this is likely a stupid question, but I don't know how SBCL's type inference & vop matching works) 20:25:33 .oO(is there a CL implementation emitting all these: mov{nt,}{d,q}{a,u}, sfence and what not) 20:26:28 pkhuong_: Currently my ECL contrib uses declaim ftype for all type definitions, and that obviously cannot handle polymorphic functions. 20:27:10 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:28:24 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:08 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:32:13 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:32:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:32:51 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 20:35:12 pkhuong_: I've just tweaked my ECL code to make it implicitly cast between SSE types when inlining. But making it work on all compilers (especially old ones) would require a header file with lots of #ifdefs... 20:35:49 pkhuong_: for some reason Intel didn't come up with _mm_cast*_* intrinsics from the start 20:37:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:08 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 20:39:41 angavrilov, because there's no real instruction generated? 20:39:54 bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 20:40:20 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-58-48.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:40:28 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:41:08 nus: maybe, but as a result the only completely portable way to cast between e.g. __m128i and __m128 is a union, or a pointer cast 20:43:22 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 20:43:37 angavrilov, I believe you're still thinking in terms of *C* compiler intrinsics. 20:45:10 -!- mephist__ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:45:43 mephisto_ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has joined #lisp 20:47:51 angavrilov, IOW, do you really need to make the cast so low-level? and what would such a cast gain you? 20:49:18 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 20:49:50 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-173.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:15 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-22-2.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:58:01 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:06 -!- Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:58:21 Raynes [~macr0@unaffiliated/raynes] has joined #lisp 20:58:24 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:58:29 -!- bozhidar` is now known as bozhidar 21:00:20 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.142] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 21:00:29 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:04:24 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:37 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:38 nus: I have to think in terms of C intrinsics, because ECL compiles lisp by generating C code, and therefore my SSE intrinsics for ECL work by being translated to C intrinsics 21:04:50 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:05:04 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:16 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:06:48 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:24 nus: and the only thing I can ever do to hide those 3 different C types is automatically inserting casts during C code generation 21:07:32 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:28 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A49A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:59 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-58-48.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 21:10:47 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:12:25 rwiker [~rwiker@219.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:50 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:13:45 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@186-45-38-234.dynamic.tstt.net.tt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:12 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host152-175-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:20:27 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727202.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 21:20:48 I'm not sure I follow... Effectively, with _mm_cast_* pseudoops, you're offloading type safety checks to C compiler... are you emitting _mm_cvt* anywhere? 21:20:56 benny` [~user@i577A1A94.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:22 emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:58 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:25:39 sykopomp: That's great! Are your colleagues Lispers a priori? 21:26:05 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:12 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-43.telecom.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:26:23 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:05 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:24 beach: they're not! They're all PHP folks. 21:29:41 beach: although every now and then, I've caught the guy sitting behind me coding either Clojure or elisp. 21:30:11 -!- delta [delta@devio.us] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:30:34 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@219.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:37:57 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:58 delta [delta@devio.us] has joined #lisp 21:40:39 owned [~owned@93-96-43-166.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:44:55 Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:46:02 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 21:46:04 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-9-101.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:51:11 -!- delta [delta@devio.us] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:54:27 ssideris [~sideris@93-97-178-232.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:54:59 hello... does anyone know if there is a way to make slime present the debugger in a separate emacs frame? 21:56:58 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:12 ssideris: isn't that what usually happens? 21:57:33 it usually splits the current frame for me 21:57:47 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:58:36 sykopomp: no, for me at least it appears as part of the same frame (it splits in half vertically) 22:01:00 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:01:30 ssideris: ah. I don't know then, sorry. 22:01:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-196.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:06 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:09 no problem :-) 22:02:23 -!- jdz [~jdz@host93-24-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:02:28 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-196-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-213.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:03:53 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:05:41 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:02 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:51 -!- codygman [43609fcb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.96.159.203] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:09:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-9-101.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:12:10 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.192.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 22:12:46 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:15:37 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED16259.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:20:24 -!- devinus [~devinus@ps23102.dreamhost.com] has left #lisp 22:21:02 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.155] has joined #lisp 22:23:23 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:23:23 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-154-87.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:24:26 arek [~arek@77.236.0.10] has joined #lisp 22:25:48 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AD4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:25:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-154-37.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:26:45 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:45 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:28:48 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:30:41 -!- serichsen [~user@f048197018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 22:32:30 -!- arek [~arek@77.236.0.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:48 arek [~arek@77.236.0.10] has joined #lisp 22:42:31 -!- samo_ is now known as samo 22:45:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:48:51 heiz [~heiz@ppp89-110-22-131.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 22:48:56 -!- heiz [~heiz@ppp89-110-22-131.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has left #lisp 22:49:54 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:50:36 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:50:56 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:54:34 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:55:09 -!- arek [~arek@77.236.0.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:47 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:58:23 abugosh [~Adium@pool-96-255-9-139.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:55 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:03:27 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-96-255-9-139.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:13 abugosh [~Adium@pool-96-255-9-139.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:34 hello 23:05:15 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-96-255-9-139.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:50 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-177-151.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:06:43 owned: heya 23:07:01 How is the day sykopomp 23:07:11 it goes. 23:08:04 Just grabbing those MIT videos 23:08:12 looking forward to write some macros 23:08:14 in Lisp 23:08:29 beware the temptation of macros! 23:08:36 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:36 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:17:28 BLM 2010-09-20T18:00 at NEU WVH 366: Hari Prashanth on Functional Data Structures for Typed Racket (confirmed) 23:17:47 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-80-44.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:38 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A20C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:24:55 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:28:21 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:29:03 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:29:59 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:47 Still the videos are downloading 23:32:56 I might start reading gentle Lisp 23:33:05 good plan :) 23:33:13 owned: have you already set up a lisp environment and everything? 23:33:21 yah 23:33:26 what are you running? 23:33:38 I got Lsipworks personal 23:33:55 cool 23:34:12 So I am looking forward to get my hands dirty 23:34:29 s/dirty/bloody/! 23:34:49 with the blood of lesser languages, of course 23:35:16 sykopomp: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html 23:35:22 ;) 23:35:32 really cool articles 23:35:55 They were exciting when I first started, too. 23:36:10 these days, a lot of PG's words feel pretty empty. 23:36:25 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 23:36:35 PG : Post Graduate? 23:36:54 Paul Graham. 23:37:21 Why does they fell empty? 23:37:58 Also does Lisp need good mathematical background? 23:38:19 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:38:27 no. My degree is in liberal arts (film, to be exact), and I picked up Lisp in my spare time. 23:38:35 I have no mathematical background to speak of :) 23:38:59 but I think that's pretty much the case for any programming language. Except maybe Haskell. 23:39:27 and even then, you don't need the background -- having it will just probably make the jargon easier to penetrate. 23:39:40 ok 23:39:46 where interesting 23:39:55 what? 23:40:13 atleast someone from arts recognised programming is more of art 23:40:40 What made you pick Lisp 23:40:41 Having a different perspective of things can be eye-opening :) 23:40:55 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-24-7-84-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:56 out of curiosity 23:41:17 gigamonkey [~user@c-24-7-84-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-50-81.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:42 Heh. I had a friend in college who is really into Lisp. He talked me into learning Lisp after I expressed mild interest in learning to program. 23:42:10 I was taking an intro-to-CS course, in Python (the language), during my final year of college/uni. 23:42:10 ok 23:42:19 ok 23:42:20 just as a side thing, while I worked on my thesis. 23:42:28 So you are in college 23:42:35 No, I graduated a couple of years ago. 23:42:45 ok 23:43:00 Reminds me old days of college 23:43:16 I wish can create a time machine with Lisp 23:43:20 the good ol' days that probably look much better in retrospect. 23:43:20 to go back 23:43:34 I think the memories are still fresh enough in my mind that I know better than to want to do that. 23:43:45 I am old 23:43:56 So those are old memories 23:44:21 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-175-253.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:44:21 :) 23:45:02 At this point, I'm constantly flip-flopping between thinking of Lisp as a pretty average language, and then realizing how well-designed some of it is, compared to what Everyone Else does. 23:45:11 CL is so interesting :) 23:45:54 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:17 I am still digging in 23:47:51 it's a language that you'll be learning for a long time... and that's not a bad thing :) 23:48:07 I want to learn it 23:48:13 and create some art in it 23:48:26 It's also a language that you will be turning into the tool you feel you can work best with. 23:48:29 psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-99-154-14-142.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:04 psilord2: thanks for the tip about shifting the array back to the beginning! 23:49:10 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.30.246.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:15 angavrilov: re type inference, only each intrinsic has to do that. If you use pxor, then the result is integer; if you use xorps, it's float. Of course, you can easily do that with type derivation functions in Python too. 23:58:13 beach: are you still awake? 23:59:18 -!- rfg [~rfg@host81-102-110-35.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Quit: rfg]