00:00:55 what makes you think I will go by this link? 00:02:26 unenana [~unenana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:02:55 -!- unenana [~unenana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:35 fe[nl]ix: Right. That wouldn't work so well with unix-read. 00:06:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz] 00:06:24 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:08:44 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:16:55 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 00:27:12 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:20 what is prefered way to manage libraries on win32? by hand? 00:33:01 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@user-12ld6f8.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:15 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:37:36 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:38:51 what do you mean by "manage libraries"? 00:38:57 as in, solve DLL hell on Windows? 00:39:11 or as in, use ASDF? 00:39:36 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has joined #lisp 00:39:44 for the latter, I suppose you could use clbuild on cygwin 00:48:05 jxonas [~jxonas@187.106.53.93] has joined #lisp 00:48:49 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:09 -!- locci [~nes@93.37.214.125] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:58:07 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:03 -!- Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:02:22 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:04:28 Fare: yes you are right, sorry for lacking detail, I meant cl libraries. 01:05:59 -!- udzinari` is now known as udzinari 01:08:53 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:09:02 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:10:38 What would be the most straight way to retrieve a web page? The way I'm doing is under a bash shell using curl as in `curl "http://www.example.com"'. 01:10:54 Drakma? That seems too full featured. 01:11:06 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:18 <_3b``> more so than curl? 01:11:49 No, not more than curl. I was not clear, sorry. I want to do it from cl. 01:12:01 *_3b``* is just confused by that being a problem 01:12:17 _3b``: What, curl or Drakma? 01:12:28 <_3b``> 'full featured' 01:12:35 Nothing. 01:12:42 Just exploring solutions. 01:12:52 <_3b``> drakma is the usual solution 01:12:59 Nice. 01:13:45 if you like, you can easily find a non-working half-assed http retrieving library 01:14:12 stassats: If I wanted that I would do it myself. 01:15:50 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@user-12ld6f8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 01:15:59 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 01:17:04 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:17:17 reiners [~reiners@mn-71-55-149-96.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:10 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:19:14 -!- Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:20:50 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128008041.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:22:41 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:23:06 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:28 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128008041.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:28:00 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-77-215.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:29:07 -!- reiners [~reiners@mn-71-55-149-96.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [] 01:30:38 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:34:24 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:35:28 konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 01:37:01 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:43:42 -!- elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:57 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:44:07 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-173.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:00 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 01:52:48 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:56:13 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:57:36 Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:39 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:20 minion: memo for didi: clisp has EXT:OPEN-HTTP, EXT:WITH-HTTP-INPUT and EXT:WITH-HTTP-OUTPUT. 01:58:44 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 02:04:53 fusss [~chatzilla@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:39 *fusss* gives sbcl and ccl a big fat hug (Oracle is suing Google for using Java in Android) 02:06:24 so, are you saying Google is switching to Common Lisp? 02:07:36 Good morning everyone! 02:07:38 no, just grateful no one is taking these 02:07:41 hey beach 02:08:16 someone should sue SBCL for harming software industry for so many years 02:08:27 I just wrote a tiny translator that takes s-exps and generates json/xpath expression for java's consumption; than GOD i don't have to write any java 02:08:54 thank += k 02:09:00 errr 02:10:31 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:12:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:13:26 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:08 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 02:19:33 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:30 stassats: Fortunately no-one uses sbcl, so the damage has been minimized. 02:28:16 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:36 majeure [~majeure@unaffiliated/majeure] has joined #lisp 02:31:28 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 02:32:10 -!- Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:32:37 This is interesting news though. I have told my students for years that if they decide to use a proprietary language for software development once they are in a position to make such decisions, they might jeopardize the future of the product and of their company. 02:33:14 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 02:33:16 and java is a proprietary language? 02:33:33 stassats: That's what Oracle seems to say. 02:34:00 stassats: I haven't looked into the details of the patents and copyrights that Oracle is referring to. 02:34:45 comical :P 02:36:26 derrida: In what way? 02:36:35 beach: there is never a guarantee that you don't infringe someones present or future patents 02:37:28 that is why we should get rid of software patents in the first place.. 02:38:45 beach: oracle spitting more venom. 02:39:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:39:17 derrida: I am sure the software industry that uses Java at the moment finds it a lot less comical. 02:39:49 what's ethics when money are at stake 02:39:54 i can't think of a better word to describe oracle trying to collect royalties on java :P 02:40:18 Is Oracle the next SCO? 02:40:45 what is the official stefil? luis' darcs or hu.dwim's ? 02:40:54 yes 02:41:27 Oracle is sinking into irrelevance. They can milk a few billions for a few years, but nothing much new to expect. 02:42:51 how can a language be proprietary, anyway? 02:43:32 easily? Proprietary specification, or no specification at all besides a proprietary implementation. 02:43:41 *Fare* is in lisp "locate the correct repo" hell 02:43:42 A bit like perl. 02:43:59 sykopomp, but there ARE free software implementation 02:44:12 sykopomp: Ruby springs to mind. 02:44:21 Fare: sure, but you asked how a language could be propritary, not how Java could be proprietary. 02:44:21 Of course, the answer is, like with perl, to keep a copy of the implementation that happens to work today for you. 02:44:25 sykopomp, therefore, if all they want is their trademark, they can keep it, and people will program in opencoffeebean 02:44:45 and all of this makes me pitty SUN-s fate even more.. :/ 02:44:52 implementation techniques can be patented 02:45:07 stassats, that's more scary. 02:45:13 Fare: they should sue all these browser makers, too. Maybe they'll kill JavaScript, and I can rejoice. 02:45:29 pity on Java? in #lisp? 02:45:47 sykopomp, they can probably sue JavaScript for trademark infringement - but probably not ECMAScript. 02:45:59 Fare: right, so Microsoft is safe :) 02:46:13 and sue Indonesia too? 02:46:27 stassats: different field, so they're probably okay! 02:46:40 yes. and coffee makers who have online presence. 02:46:50 or anyone with a website that sells coffee. 02:48:28 http://dwim.hu/project/hu.dwim.stefil seems to be down or very slow 02:49:06 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:49:07 that's an accurate description of http://dwim.hu/ 02:50:49 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-5-253.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:49 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:01 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:10 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-96-46.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:54:43 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:23 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:56:04 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 02:56:09 -!- curi [~curi@h215.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:57:57 -!- majeure [~majeure@unaffiliated/majeure] has quit [Quit: reconnecting ...] 02:58:32 lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 02:58:43 -!- lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:08 :-/ 03:01:32 cybergirl [~cybergirl@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 03:03:14 -!- cybergirl [~cybergirl@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 03:03:40 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:05:12 beach: of course, Google isn't in trouble--as I understand it--for *using* Java. They're in trouble for doing their own implementation. 03:05:38 majeure [~majeure@unaffiliated/majeure] has joined #lisp 03:05:59 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:14 gigamonkey, so it's a patent lawsuit? 03:06:31 That's even more interesting! 03:07:29 That's my understanding, from reading one article about it. 03:07:43 if the actual language is patented, how do we have things like gcj? 03:07:44 And some who-knows-how-well informed comments on Reddit or HN. 03:08:25 I don't think it's the language, per se. But there could be patents that Google is violating with their impl. 03:08:52 i see 03:09:06 And there's some strangeness in that Sun opensourced their Java which may have involved an explicit or implicit licensing of the patents to people who built on that impl. But Google, apparently, did not. 03:09:19 I.e. they started from scratch. 03:09:45 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:12:41 gigamonkey, but once again, starting from scratch bars copyright infringement, so it must be trademark or patent. Trademark is easily avoided by omitting the brand. Remains patent... 03:12:45 gigamonkey: If that is true, this is huge i.e., companies that use Java have to use the implementation that Sun/Oracle supplies, and that implementation can change arbitrarily in the future. 03:13:22 if it's patents, this is big, and can lead to a huge war. 03:13:52 the chinese must be looking at the US and laughing. 03:14:00 lafille [~lafille@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 03:15:46 -!- jxonas [~jxonas@187.106.53.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:51 -!- majeure [~majeure@unaffiliated/majeure] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:16:10 beach: yeah, that's a good point. Though who knows really. When an entity like Oracle sues an entity like Google there can be any number of tactical and strategic parts to the play. 03:16:33 -!- lafille [~lafille@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:55 gigamonkey: Of course, yes. 03:17:25 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-173.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:20 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@pool-173-70-179-110.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18:48 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 03:18:48 lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 03:19:12 emacs-dwim [~user@pool-173-70-179-110.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:16 -!- binarin [~user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:19:34 -!- lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:03 gigamonkey: But I already have an additional argument for my course in software-project management: If you are using a language that does not have a standard independent from any implementation, you might lose your product and your company, unless you have the money to hire enough lawyers to make sure you are not violating any patents and/or to defend yourself in court should you get sued. 03:20:05 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-173.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:20:10 -!- Intensity [mKYtzqDEJV@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:20:53 just don't tell anyone what language you are using 03:21:12 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:22:58 beach: so your claim is that the worst that could happen in Lisp is that after you've settled on a particular implementation, you could be forced to switch to a different implementation if the provider of the first implementation turns out to be violating someone's patents? 03:23:19 That wouldn't be totally painless either but probably better than switching to a completely different language. 03:24:14 Though is there really any danger that if I'm using, say Perl, that I lose my whole company if the Perl implementation turns out to be violating someone's patents? 03:24:34 Seems like the worst that could happen is Perl goes away and I can't use it any more. 03:26:40 Google should buy Oracle... 03:27:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-guqltcxluhynwbhf] has joined #lisp 03:27:33 Intensity [gio4fuKbQf@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 03:30:49 gigamonkey: That is my claim yes. And if Perl (or whatever you are using) goes away, the investment you might have to make in order to replace it might be astronomical. 03:31:06 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 03:31:27 majeure [~majeure@unaffiliated/majeure] has joined #lisp 03:32:14 For sure. 03:32:33 gigamonkey: You are not entirely safe with a language with an independent standard either, because someone could have patented (say) automatic memory management, making it essentially impossible for any implementation to avoid patent violations. 03:32:43 Right. 03:33:12 Though I suspect for most software companies, the danger of their own code running afoul of a software patent is much higher than the danger that their choosen language is going to go away because of patent problems. 03:33:39 That might be true. 03:34:20 But I already have a few more scenarios for use in my course. 03:34:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:36:09 gigamonkey: how's your code contest project going? 03:36:18 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-181-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:36:26 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36:50 majeure: I'm waiting for some terms and conditions stuff from the lawyers. 03:37:53 gigamonkey: fair enough. 03:38:25 ][V][ [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:26 Hopefully it'll be offically up sometime next week. 03:39:01 <][V][> ( 03:39:34 ) 03:39:45 Gotta keep those parens balanced! 03:40:45 <][V][> I just predicted the future 03:41:26 <][V][> I read your mind 03:41:46 -!- ][V][ [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:47 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:52 ][V][ [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:15 <][V][> [ Perseid Meteor Shower ] 03:46:28 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:36 (off-topic) 03:47:12 Did Steele and Gabriel speak at ILC 2009? 03:48:09 Other than the future of Lisp panel discussion and the macro debate. 03:49:12 sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 03:49:20 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:54:25 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:25 Does anyone know if the 1990 in "IEEE Std 1178-1990" (the name of the IEEE Scheme standard) implies that the standard was finished in 1990 or started then or nothing at all? 04:00:55 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:06:54 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-239-58.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:06 -!- derrida [~derrida@undesign.us] has quit [Changing host] 04:07:06 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 04:07:39 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:07:46 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:07:51 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:09:28 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-5-253.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:48 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 04:18:02 gigamonkey, Steele+Gabriel *PERFORMED* at ILC, didn't they? 04:22:07 Was it the same talk they later did at OOPSLA or somewhere? 04:22:17 talk, performance, whatever. 04:26:06 chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has joined #lisp 04:27:08 -!- Buganini_ is now known as Buganini 04:28:26 So it looks like that 1990 means the year it was finished. 04:28:39 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:30:08 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 04:31:33 hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:32:52 If I want to locally redefine the slot accessors for a class, is there a way to do it other than redefining all readers/writers in the class definition? 04:33:27 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:10 oconnore: i don't understand your question 04:34:56 do you understand what I am trying to do? 04:35:10 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hmrzpmanjyqdrhwq] has joined #lisp 04:35:13 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hmrzpmanjyqdrhwq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:28 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zmqrvxpktemyntru] has joined #lisp 04:35:29 no 04:36:20 so a local function would be with something like flet. 04:36:48 if i have a class foo 04:37:05 i want to build a macro that will create an flet that redefines the slot accessors of foo to include some additional computation 04:37:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:37:32 flet doesn't "redefine" functions 04:38:01 locally binds, yes? 04:38:08 sorry 04:38:50 lexically 04:39:43 i don't know what you're trying to do, but it doesn't sound like a good idea 04:39:50 oconnore: Probably more like labels. 04:40:30 oconnore: Why not just add a method? 04:41:38 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-19-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:42:57 what do you mean? 04:43:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-241.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:11 a method that does what? 04:43:34 -!- chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:43:38 CLOS accessors are methods 04:45:03 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 04:45:05 That does whatever additional computation you want. 04:45:06 right, but I don't need to add one, they are already created 04:45:24 Then you'd better work out what "to include some additional computation" means. 04:45:47 curi [~curi@h215.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:33 there are after- and before-methods, if you want additional computations 04:48:34 right, but if I did that, then the change wouldn't be restricted to a certain lexical scope. 04:48:41 not to mention around and primary methods with call-next-method 04:49:32 what do you really want to do? 04:50:27 you can create your local functions and call appropriate methods, functions, whatever, from them, what is the problem? 04:52:57 devslashnull [~james@220-253-98-252.TAS.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:55:38 i guess there is none, i was just hoping to avoid creating huge flets. 04:55:47 i suppose the correct answer to my original question was 'no'. 04:56:03 that's easy: just don't create huge flets 04:56:17 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:57:01 and your original question is still unclear 04:57:21 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:29 you want to "redefine" all accessors? 04:59:16 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:00:12 consider the following (flet ((perform-additional-computations (function &rest arguments) (+ 23 (apply function arguments)))) (perform-additional-computations #'slot-accessor object)) 05:01:03 right, so that's the alternative 05:01:20 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:02:09 but it seems like it would be nice to simply do: (slot-accessor object) 05:02:15 and have it work correctly 05:04:01 maybe my aesthetics are skewed... 05:04:29 i think i will stop bothering you. 05:04:38 thanks for your help. 05:06:04 No, that's a terrible idea. 05:06:07 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 05:06:31 :) 05:06:41 ok 05:06:44 Think of slots as being a kind of bus for the classes of an instance to talk to each other with over time. 05:07:07 They shouldn't be conflated with the external interface of an object. 05:07:14 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 05:07:42 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:43 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:11:46 ok 05:13:45 binarin [~user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 05:19:32 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:20:03 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 05:25:34 f0d [~root@unaffiliated/f0d] has joined #lisp 05:25:43 where can i get manpage like facilities for common lisp 05:25:57 :/ 05:27:36 you mean documentation for the primitives ? 05:27:46 clhs, and cltl2 05:27:49 macros and functions and so on 05:27:50 or hyperspec 05:28:18 use the inbuilt describe or apropos functions 05:28:42 OK thanks 05:28:44 -!- f0d [~root@unaffiliated/f0d] has quit [Client Quit] 05:31:05 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:31:55 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:02 -!- Intensity [gio4fuKbQf@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:37:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:47:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:03:26 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:04:26 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:04:43 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:05:23 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:11:40 -!- curi [~curi@h215.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:16:54 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:33 -!- mqt [m@lambda.nirv.net] has left #lisp 06:19:06 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:38 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:20:50 good morning 06:21:03 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:24:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 06:24:18 Demosthenes [~demo@162.sub-75-194-70.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:58 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:34:11 hello mvilleneuve 06:38:24 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:40:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:41:26 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 06:42:14 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:11 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:44:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:50:10 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:51 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 06:54:35 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 06:56:22 -!- majeure [~majeure@unaffiliated/majeure] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:57:25 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:58:12 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:58:34 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:07 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:49 anyone running http://common-lisp.net/project/vial/darcs/extended-viper? 07:04:05 stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-19-31.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:04:09 -!- stassats` [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-19-31.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 07:04:09 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:05:32 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:05:40 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:41 Fare: Are you around by any chance? 07:13:48 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 07:15:45 not by chance 07:16:06 May I PM you? 07:16:10 sure 07:16:31 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:19:44 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:57 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:29:12 oh, Fare 07:29:43 lp 611361? 07:29:44 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/611361? 07:29:59 oh well done specbot 07:31:04 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:41 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:45 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:50 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:32:10 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:34 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:34:26 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 07:36:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:36:55 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:38:36 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:39:05 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 07:40:26 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:32 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:40 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:11 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:44:15 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:46:53 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.192] has joined #lisp 07:48:53 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 07:50:29 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:24 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-15873.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:53 Is there any way, other than enumerating all floating-point types, to find the least positive normalized float of the same type as some given float x? 07:52:00 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:15 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:58:24 Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-77-215.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 08:02:50 beach: should be feasible if you assume IEEE floats to assemble one 08:03:35 mal__: That is a valid assumption, but I still don't see how to do it with existing CLHS functions. 08:07:53 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-133-1.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08:36 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007021.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 08:08:55 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10:24 Actually, the description of what I need is not accurate. I need to distinguish a special case where (decode-float x) returns 0.5 and x is greater than the smallest normalized float of its type. 08:13:32 Oh, wait, I think I have an idea. I'll think about it some more. 08:14:07 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:16:32 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:16:36 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007021.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:18:41 doing it portably might be hard or impossible 08:19:18 bindings between the IEEE machinery and higher level languages are often incomplete 08:20:57 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:27 OK, so what I *really* need, is to find the predecessor of an arbitrary float x. The predecessor is the largest float that is smaller than x. 08:24:09 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:24:24 curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:57 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:25:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.60] has joined #lisp 08:25:48 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:25:57 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:26:53 If m, and e are the values returned by integer-decode-float, then the predecessor is either (float (- (rational x) (expt 2 e)) x) or (float (- (rational x) (expt 2 (1- e)))). The risk is that sometimes using (1- e) is not big enough and can give back the same float. I should just test whether (1- e) gives a different float. If not, use e. 08:27:02 That is totally portable it seems. 08:30:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-77-215.net.novis.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:30:51 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:34:25 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:38:31 Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 08:38:53 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:39:48 beach: that seems like a very strange thing to need 08:45:06 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:46:32 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:49:15 -!- curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:49:54 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C26B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:13 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:50:24 Ralith: Oh, I didn't invent that. It's in the paper of Burger and Dybvig on how to print floating-point numbers accurately. 08:50:58 curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:22 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 08:52:42 Ralith: They compute the interval inside which any rational number would generate a particular floating-point value, and then they generate decimal digits in such a way that the corresponding decimal number lies in that interval. 08:57:10 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.67.177.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:17 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:25 beach: oo, neat 09:01:35 beach: #'print doesn't do this? 09:02:11 print has somehow to do this 09:02:17 not automagically 09:02:46 well, I assume beach isn't working on reimplementing it. 09:03:05 I'd've thought that particular problem was solved long ago in common impls. 09:03:09 that's a wrong assumption 09:04:11 why? 09:04:26 what impl's print is currently broken? 09:04:36 that's another wrong assumption 09:06:37 would you care to elaborate usefully instead of declaring me vaguely incorrect? :P 09:06:49 no 09:06:58 in that case, why bother talking at all? 09:08:24 goldenlight [goldenligh@devio.us] has joined #lisp 09:09:41 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082AF1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:00 beach: I don't know Burger & Dybvig's paper. Is their way significantly better than the one in the Steele paper? 09:11:13 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:31 mal__: Only by a factor 70 or so in performance. 09:13:07 nice 09:13:07 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C328.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:13:24 Ralith: This is part of the SICL project, the purpose of which is to create building blocks for people who like to implement CL in a way that those building-blocks are as portable as possible. 09:15:08 beach: cool 09:15:21 sounds like a useful project 09:15:28 what license on the code? 09:16:24 Ralith: Haven't figured it out yet. The closest to public domain that is acceptable to most legal systems in the world. 09:17:05 sounds good 09:17:08 Ralith: Oh, I should add "... as portable as possible, without sacrificing performance". 09:17:19 sounds even better 09:17:29 Ralith: I want high-performance implementations to be able to use this stuff as well. 09:18:39 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@162.sub-75-194-70.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24:17 i got genera to run on an xserver on the iphone 09:26:09 quad: An interesting theory. 09:27:54 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 09:27:56 Quadrescence: nice. I've been unable to get it to run on recent debians 09:31:33 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932ebdf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:46 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:39:17 http://i.imgur.com/Qhd6m.jpg 09:40:43 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:46:41 beach: I think the sicl project should adopt the ANSI test suite for its own (: 09:46:47 beach: WTFPL, aka "public domain in legalese" 09:47:03 Quadrescence: cute (: 09:47:17 hehe 09:47:29 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:41 antifuchs: Maybe. It needs additional (white-box) testing as well though. 09:48:14 p_l: Maybe so, I'll look into it eventually. It is not important at the moment. 09:50:29 toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:51:25 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A0A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:21 Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 09:55:54 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:44 elderK [~elderK@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 10:00:45 Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 10:01:53 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:41 Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 10:02:53 mk2` [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 10:08:08 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:08:36 tfb [~tfb@94.197.104.106.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:10:00 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:35 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-253.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:14:56 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:26 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 10:17:50 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:18:22 -!- devslashnull [~james@220-253-98-252.TAS.netspace.net.au] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 10:19:27 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.86.0.99] has joined #lisp 10:20:21 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:23:13 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:31:33 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:32:11 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 10:33:28 avallark [~user@59.93.18.18] has joined #lisp 10:33:38 hello all :) 10:34:12 quick question how come the function string-match isnt available on sbcl? is there another function i can use to match strings? 10:34:34 What does "match strings" mean? 10:34:55 compare two strings to tell if one string is inside another string 10:35:05 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:35:43 See search. 10:37:58 ITYM ppcre:scan 10:39:23 In general, don't expect elisp functions to be available in Common Lisp. 10:40:06 lichtblau: yeah i am realising that.. whats ppcre:scan is that the function? 10:41:17 What is wrong with search as Zhivago said? 10:41:53 clhs search 10:41:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm 10:43:34 beach: I thought he was pointing me to the direction of what keyword to use to find a solution.. 10:43:36 -!- laynor` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-239-50.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:45 Zhivago: Its perfect. Thanks mate 10:44:11 beach: thanks for pointing it out, else i d have spent an aweful lot of time google-ing :)) 10:44:23 avallark: Sure, no problem. 10:45:00 avallark: For more complicated cases, you will have to use cl-ppcre as lichtblau pointed out. 10:45:13 minion: tell avallark about cl-ppcre. 10:45:53 Hmm. 10:46:06 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:48:21 avallark: Welcome. 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16:02:02 beach: For the predecessor, is there something wrong with (scale-float (float (1- m) x) e) where m and e are what (integer-decode-float x) returns? Or am I misunderstanding the question? 16:04:56 Hraban [~Hraban@78-21-53-40.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:05:06 rtoym: Yes, that won't work. First, it won't work because you would have to subtract e from m, rather than subtracting 1. Otherwise the method won't work for denormalized floats. 16:05:15 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:06:30 I just realized that you could easily turn lisp into xml-like formatting (and vice-versa) 16:06:42 rtoym: Second, that doesn't give the correct predecessor if both x and its predecessor are normalized, and x is a 1 followed by all 0s. 16:07:32 er, wait. 16:07:35 If x is m*2^e, then isn't the predecessor (m-1)*2^e? 16:07:46 Except when x is 0. 16:07:47 splittist [3ecb252a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.203.37.42] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 morning 16:08:06 howdy splittist 16:08:06 hello splittist 16:08:36 rtoym: Not always. 16:08:41 Hey, guys. Really looking forward to Quicklisp (: 16:09:16 *Xach* is going to make a short quicklisp movie this weekend 16:10:00 oooh! The Last Parenbender! 16:10:19 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 lo 16:10:41 *lol 16:11:14 Hraban: such tricks are definitely possible, but don't look nice in the end... 16:11:18 *Xach* will try his best Christopher Lee voiceover voice 16:12:20 rtoym: the predecessor is (m-1)*2^e except when x is normalized, the predecessor is normalized, and m has a single 1 in it. Then it is m*2^e - 2^(e-1) rather than m*2^e - 2^e. 16:12:53 rtoym: The Burger and Dybvig paper says that. 16:13:01 (and it's correct) 16:13:01 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:13:19 splittist: I'd prefer Parens in the Shell, though :D 16:13:37 beach: Ok. 16:15:32 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-3-27.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:32 rtoym: Today, I have been thinking that the Burger&Dybvig method might not do so well for 128-bit floats, because it calculates integers such as 2^16384 which will use more than 500 64-bit words. 16:16:32 That doesn't seem so bad. The mt19937 rng has 600+ 32-bit words. 16:16:33 maetbag [~user@2.94.52.132] has joined #lisp 16:16:52 http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2010/08/asdf.html looks interesting 16:17:16 tankrim [~user@c-2ffce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:17:24 -!- tankrim [~user@c-2ffce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:33 rtoym: what is mt19937 rng? 16:17:33 but it's in some strange language! 16:17:45 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 16:18:02 beach: It's the random number generator used by cmucl and sbcl and maybe some others. 16:19:11 rtoym: I am not so sure that doing the operations that the Burger and Dybvig require will be as efficient as one might first think in that case. 16:20:45 Because of the large exponent range or because of the large number size? 2^16384 is pretty big integer. 16:21:11 rtoym: But I found a totally portable method for computing the predecessor, which is also independent of the size of the representation. Test if decode-float returns 0.5. If not subtract 2^e from m, otherwise, check whether the successor of a predecessor using e-1 is the original number, if it is not, use e-1, otherwise use e. 16:21:33 rtoym: this is bignum arithmetic here. 16:21:52 rtoym: It will have 500-word bignums to deal with. 16:23:07 i like this picture from the blog above: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/pufpuf/sysdef-search.jpg 16:24:30 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 16:24:44 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:25:00 beach: Yeah, 500 64-bit bignums is fairly large. But there's no common machine that has native 128-bit floats (I think). 16:25:29 *rtoym* used Burger & Dybvig to print double-double floats. 16:25:58 But that may not be correct because double-double floats have weird properties. 16:26:12 rtoym: But there will be such machines by the time I release SICL :) 16:26:22 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:23 *splittist* wonders what a bolshintsve environment is 16:28:35 "bolshintsvo" is "majority" 16:29:44 marienz_ [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 16:31:25 the fact that 128bit floats are already standardised suggests that someone at least thought about it 16:32:09 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 619 seconds] 16:33:24 The traditional lisp approach to a solution would be to have a complex set of layers that ensured it worked for 136-bit floats as well... 16:33:27 It was standardize in IEEE 754 in the early 80's. It's 30 years later. Any machine that supports 128-bit floats (like sparc) implements them in software. I think. 16:37:03 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:47 rtoym: If I understand correctly, 128-bit floats were included in the standard in 2008. 16:38:08 -!- marienz_ is now known as marienz 16:38:16 rtoym: But I admit having only skimmed such details. 16:38:58 Really? I thought it was the original because there was double-extended, so I assumed quad precision too. 16:39:17 rtoym: I might have misunderstood. 16:39:29 Weren't 128bit floats suggested to be a possible extension to SSE? 16:39:43 *rtoym* hasn't looked at the spec since the mid 80's. 16:39:59 *beach* cheated and used the Wikipedia 16:41:14 the Wikipedia also says that the IBM System/370 used 128 bit floating point registers... 16:41:21 IBM main frames might have them. 16:42:39 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-30-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:43:05 I think Fujitsu sparc x might have them in hardware too. 16:44:31 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:53 beach: Do you have an alternative algorithm for 128-bit floats? 16:46:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: weekend!] 16:47:27 -!- maetbag [~user@2.94.52.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:16 maetbag 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[~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:40:46 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:40:53 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:40:54 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-243.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 18:41:06 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:46 -!- xan_ [~xan@59-124-113-6.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41:46 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 18:42:07 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:53 what's the development status of cliki and cliki.net? is there an active project, roadmap and maintainer? I notice there are some trivial, years-old bugs left unfixed on cliki.net 18:43:24 arbscht: drewc talked about cliki and development some time ago... I think he was talking about replacement though 18:45:33 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:53 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:49:47 srolls [~srolls@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:51 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-243.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:21 arbscht: cliki is horrible dead end code. I have a replacement in the works, but havne't had time to think about it, let alone work on it lately. 18:52:23 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:53:09 drewc: ok. is the new code fit for publication, if not actual use? 18:57:48 What's the cleanest way to take current-time as universal-time and add milliseconds to it? Is there a way to easily deal in relative times? 18:58:47 there is no milliseconds in CL 18:58:49 Bah - let me take that back - universal time is in seconds. Is there anything - standard - for shorter measuremnents? 18:58:54 stassats`: Fair enough. 18:59:15 clhs g-i-r-t 18:59:16 Matches: GET-INTERNAL-RUN-TIME GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME 19:01:20 clhs internal-time-units-per-second 19:01:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_intern.htm 19:02:14 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:04:13 *p_l* is finally free of resits, woohoo!!! 19:04:28 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:25 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:09:22 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:09:37 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:10:08 benny [~user@i577A85E6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:27 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 19:13:33 chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has joined #lisp 19:19:02 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:21:10 billitch1 [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:33 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:24:49 exu0 [~exu@dslb-188-099-198-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:54 -!- curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:28:42 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 19:32:28 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:39 hi 19:34:00 bgs100 [~ian@h135.232.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h135.232.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:34:10 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:34:19 under sbcl-1.0.31 openbsd/amd64 this goes into interactive-debugger : (or nil (< 0 nil)) 19:34:55 billitch: i would expect that to happen on any sane lisp. 19:35:13 billitch: did you expect something different? if so, why? 19:35:31 Xach: because or is not a function ? 19:35:41 billitch: what are the evaluation rules for OR? 19:37:10 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:37:16 to state the CLHS : "or evaluates each form, one at a time, from left to right" 19:37:23 keep reading 19:37:34 when does evaluation terminate? 19:38:08 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 19:38:27 Xach: ..! this OR, not AND... i should sleep, thanks =) 19:38:53 and so trivial-shell is broken 19:42:02 (trivial-shell:shell-command "/bin/ls") => The value NIL is not of type REAL 19:42:33 phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:43:40 -!- phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:48 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:45:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.41.187] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 19:45:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:47:37 gigamonkey: are you still looking for an easy way to search kmp's articles? 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22:35:55 Hmm. (setf file-position) might not work so well with complicated external formats. Oh well. 22:36:45 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:56 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@10.sub-97-159-136.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: -a-] 22:39:40 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725746.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 22:40:12 why not ? 22:40:53 <_3b> file-position doesn't have to return character offsets, if it uses octets, it should work fine 22:41:51 <_3b> though i guess if you go as far as including things like compression in 'complicated' you would have more of a problem :) 22:42:28 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:45 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: later folks] 22:43:20 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 22:44:14 parser [~parser@unaffiliated/parser] has joined #lisp 22:44:29 sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-28-76.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:45:26 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:46:12 The external format can have a complicated state machine to control encoding. Even if you jump to a character boundary, you won't know the state that goes with it. 22:46:47 -!- parser [~parser@unaffiliated/parser] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:11 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-28-76.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:48:22 Fortunately, it seems utf8 is winning, so as long as you go to a character boundary, it's ok. If you don't you'll just get one garbled character at most (I think). 22:48:36 sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-28-76.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:49:52 parser [~parser@unaffiliated/parser] has joined #lisp 22:51:43 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:01 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:52:10 -!- sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-28-76.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:52:11 lemoinem [~swoog@200-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:36 ldunn [~user@d110-32-133-1.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:54:43 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:24 -!- sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-28-76.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:58:03 gigamonkey [~user@c-24-7-84-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:20 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:59:01 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:00:11 Anyone here read Chinese? 23:01:49 -!- oconnore [~eric@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:14 gigamonkey: i may be meeting with a kazakh woman in an hour, would you like me to ask her? what's the nature of the text? 23:04:53 gigamonkey: and my friend (her boss) is canadian chinese-finnish, but i think her chinese is rudimentary 23:05:04 curi [~curi@h93.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:59 jhalogen: I'm trying to figure out if this web page indicates that the Chinese translation of Coders at Work is now available. http://www.douban.com/online/10422036/photo/482491433/ 23:08:21 gigamonkey: she just went offline, shucks 23:11:14 gigamonkey: i can hit facebook, i know definitively of many korean speakers in my friends, i'm pretty sure at least 1 person speaks chinese. oh yeah, xiao does, but, no offense to her, she's a model. hmm... 23:12:26 gigamonkey: The google translation doesn't seem to hint at a translation... 23:12:52 aisha says she only speaks russian and kazakh, only some kazakhs speak chinese. 23:13:36 I majored in Russian. I can't really speak it though. 23:14:12 mesh: so did my dad, in the 70s. he managed to get to the USSR then which was very difficult for an american. 23:14:26 oconnore [~eric@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 23:14:27 hahah that's pretty cool. 23:14:41 -!- nha_ [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:12 mesh: then he went to law school. now he neither speaks russian nor ever practiced law. :) 23:17:24 I double majored in russian and comp sci, actually. And I had four years of highschool german and a semester of french in college. So, I can't speak German or Russian at all, but I'm not too bad at French, and... somehow I can read Swedish kind of. 23:17:48 gigamonkey: that was mean of me about xiao. she's actually very intelligent. good thing there's about a .000000000001% chnace she's on #lisp. i emailed her with the link. 23:18:11 In terms of the comp sci stuff, I'm probably more competent in C++ than a lot of people I graduated with, though I don't get how SQL works that much, and apparently I wrote several programs in Java even though I don't really remember writing them, or studying Java. 23:18:53 mesh: i find french to be one of the easiest languages to learn. not that i speak it any more. it just has an awesome, concise lexicon. 23:18:57 also bunch of useless crap about operating systems and networking that i hope I'll never have to use because I neither remember it nor particularly care to remember it. Hurr durr curriculum from the sixties. 23:19:10 jhalogen: That and it's 30% lexically similar to English, which helps a loooooot. 23:19:27 Compared to Russian which doesn't have many loans at *all* from English. 23:19:58 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-50-94.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:20:12 Unless you want to do some really loopy cognate hunting. Like I'm pretty sure "pokupit'" and "shop" are cognates but... 23:20:24 mesh: exactly. the french/english trades seem to be glossed over often. 23:20:48 Yeah. I find vocabulary to be the hardest part of learning a language. I'm really, really good with grammar but I can't remember words at all. 23:21:11 mesh: there's a little growing movement to stop calling english germanic. 23:21:21 It's Germanic, though. 23:21:22 mesh: have you tried japanese? it rocks. 23:21:31 jha: When I was younger and a weeaboo :( 23:21:44 Japanese grammar is wonderfully consistent and... almost programming languagey in a weird way. 23:21:57 mesh: what i mean is that the hypothesis that english is germanic is being challenged academically. 23:21:58 It has this oddly constructed feel to it. 23:22:12 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:50 jhalogen: I don't get that. Historically, it's descended from Germanic languages. It has a lot of French loan words because of French occupation of England, but a heavy french influence on the lexicon doesn't make it not Germanic. 23:23:06 mesh: out of my depth, surely not my field :) 23:24:16 mesh: i lived in japan for two months when i was 16, and i picked it up so much faster than the french i was learning. i always thought it was the phonetic (consonant-vowel) pairing of japanese, the vocab slid into my memory more quickly. 23:24:25 English, in terms of other germanic languages, is closely related to Frisian, Dutch, and German. In that order. Unless you consider Scots a language, in which case stick that before Frisian. 23:24:41 I'd study Japanese again if I felt like learning Kanji. And I don't. 23:25:09 i consider Scots an enjoyable beverage, not a language. 23:25:15 Anyway, English is more distantly related to Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish, but in terms of appearances, if you compare English to Swedish, it becomes really apparent that it's Germanic. 23:25:26 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:03 it's amazing to think of the mutations these languages were undergoing 23:26:10 without guy steele to moderate 23:26:19 THERE! i made the convo topical finally! 23:26:41 Anyway I still haven't found a lisp IDE that I'm that comfortable with. 23:26:59 emacs + slime not cutting it for you? 23:28:14 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:21 Iiiiii have to admit that I'm not entirely sure how to configure emacs + slime, so I used Lispbox, and it only has Clisp with the windows version, and I sort of am liking SBCL more for various reasons, so... 23:28:27 i'm moving to lispworks soon from aquamacs +slime on os x and emacs + slime on linux and shootme + intheface on Windows 23:28:34 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:29:15 Also I'm more into mouse driven interfaces I guess? Emacs didn't seem overly mouse-y to me though I didn't really mess with it much. 23:29:33 I think I kept inadvertantly crashing the lisp session and couldn't figure out how to get it restarted? 23:29:49 mesh: it's doubtful you will enjoy common lisp a great deal if you love mice. 23:30:15 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:37 mesh: or *prefer* mice, i should say. 23:31:39 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-065-013-015-097.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:53 common lisp is like the greatest thigns about computing from the 70s taken to the extreme on modern, fast hardware. it's not traditionally very visual or ui-heavy, and many would argue it doesn't need to be. 23:32:00 at least in open source implementations. 23:32:43 I sort of got burnt out on keyboard-only text editting after the Unix server my uni used for all its CS stuff only had pico and nano installed for some reason. 23:33:29 mesh: based on your stories you may want to call your college and ask for a refund 23:33:58 I can't, I had a full tuition scholarship. 23:34:04 that's the way i felt, so i dropped out and started working. 23:34:13 mesh: then quit whinging :) :) 23:34:33 Actually I seem to recall something with how emacs handled keyboard shortcuts bothering me. 23:35:27 rmillerx [~rmillerx@76.73.167.82] has joined #lisp 23:36:18 yes, that it is treacherous. take your power with some pain with emacs. 23:38:22 mesh: i will be releasing an AWS image at some point with a complete lisp image running (complete with hunchentoot), sorry i don't have one for you yet. 23:38:50 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:05 i (or someone) should at least write a tutorial about slime with emacs and an inferior lisp- it's not that difficult, it's just foreign the first time. if you look you should be able to find something decently written, the issue becomes os and implementation choices. 23:40:51 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-181-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:42:54 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42:58 jhalogen: PCL has that. 23:43:54 jhalogen: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html 23:44:03 mesh: do you have a print copy of practical common lisp by peter seibel? if not, buy it immediately if you have any serious interest in common lisp. 23:44:28 sykopomp: it's been three fantastic years since i read it :) 23:44:30 -!- jxonas [~jxonas@187.106.53.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:38 -!- mk2` [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:20 sykopomp: what's missing from this chapter is how to configure your .emacs 23:46:48 okay 23:47:46 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:48:10 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:26 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:10 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:54:29 Mesh: emacs is but a five minute download-and-compile away! 23:54:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-242-134.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:55:27 [1]Mesh [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has joined #lisp 23:55:31 mkdir $HOME/opt && wget ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/emacs-23.2.tar.gz && tar zxf emacs-23.2.tar.gz && cd emacs-23.2 && ./configure --prefix=$HOME/opt && make install && $HOME/opt/bin/emacs & 23:55:34 <[1]Mesh> Okay, I'm playing with emacs now. 23:55:41 <[1]Mesh> It seems like I can totally use it with a mouse if I want to. 23:56:09 <[1]Mesh> Except another weird observation I'm making is that there doesn't seem to be any keyboard option to get it to show the REPL. That... only seems to be a menu item. 23:56:23 Of course, a computer that's not on the internet today, or that doesn't have a compiler, is not a computer, but a wash-mashing. 23:56:57 f0d [~root@unaffiliated/f0d] has joined #lisp 23:56:57 [1]Mesh: depends whether you want the emacs lisp REPL or the Common Lisp REPL. 23:56:59 hi 23:57:03 [1]Mesh: emacs lisp : M-x ielm RET 23:57:05 whats the best book for a beginner to programming for lisp 23:57:11 [1]Mesh: common lisp: M-x inferior-lisp RET 23:57:17 f0d: 23:57:21 that makes use of the emacs/slime stuff 23:57:23 minion: tell f0d about gentle 23:57:29 minion? 23:57:41 pjb: does it use "emacs/slime/sbcl" 23:57:49 f0d: Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:57:49 23:57:55 *f0d* crosses his fingers in hope 23:58:02 f0d: it teaches Common Lisp. 23:58:08 yeah but what implementation 23:58:10 like 23:58:12 For sbcl, you will want to read in addition to CL material, the user manual of sbcl. 23:58:15 does it have an environment 23:58:15 <[1]Mesh> I've been working through that. I've been liking it 23:58:23 For slime, you will want to read in addition to emacs material, the user manual of slime. 23:58:24 [1]Mesh: first language? 23:58:25 -!- oconnore [~eric@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:58:31 <[1]Mesh> f0d: for gentle introduction, most of the stuff isn't implementation specific 23:58:32 For emacs, you will want to read the user manual of emacs. 23:58:44 <[1]Mesh> HOWEVER SBCL has some issues with the way the book uses the format function 23:58:49 [1]Mesh: yeah, in order to test out examples and do some of the exercises 23:58:56 you need some sort of implementation :p 23:59:01 <[1]Mesh> oh wait 23:59:09 <[1]Mesh> were you asking for an implementation or asking which implementation the book used..? 23:59:12 so im just asking which one gentle uses 23:59:16 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 23:59:29 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:59:32 <[1]Mesh> I have no idea. as I said most of the stuff in it isn't implementation specific, except maybe the debugger stuff is. 23:59:38 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:59:44 <[1]Mesh> "debugger stuff" I mean whatever the toolkit sections refer to 23:59:49 f0d: PCL discusses/uses SBCL/SLIME. 23:59:54 f0d: given that there are at least three main editors (Notepad, Vim, and emacs), two main emacs lisp IDE (slime and mere inferior-lisp), and at least six main CL implementations, how many different newbie books should we write?