00:00:34 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:15 rolando [~user@135.147.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:05:39 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:58 rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 00:07:49 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:09:54 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:10:30 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:11:27 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:39 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 00:12:21 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:12:41 tankrim` [~user@c-2ffce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:12:43 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:41 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:18:00 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:18:25 bighouse [~bighouse@modemcable154.162-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:21:55 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-144-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:23:41 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:24:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:32 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:43 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.2] has joined #lisp 00:32:01 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:19 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:37:27 segv [~mb@p4FC1A53A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:27 -!- segv [~mb@p4FC1A53A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:38:10 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 00:38:33 psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-189.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:11 Hello all. I have a CL project I'd like to release and would like it to be available with clbuild. Is there anything special, beyond probably joining clbuild-devel and following the directions, that I should know about? 00:41:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:42:40 For example, what makes the difference between the main projects list and the in-progress list? 00:49:46 rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:51:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:53:51 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:52 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:56:58 -!- rolando [~user@135.147.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:58:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:58:42 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:59:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:00:15 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:56 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp 01:03:04 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:04:56 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:15 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has joined #lisp 01:06:26 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@188-126-70-35.cust.vpntunnel.se] has joined #lisp 01:07:35 Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-46.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:54 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 01:12:22 homie: It is, arguably, a possible bug in terms of user expectation. At the same time, once you know what causes it it just "makes sense". 01:12:40 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:35 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:20:20 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:22:59 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:28:38 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:33:04 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:34:56 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:19 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.130.128] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:26 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:31 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has joined #lisp 01:41:47 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:41:59 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 01:42:50 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-189.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:43:27 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has left #lisp 01:43:28 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-64.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:46:11 psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-189.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:43 -!- svitalnes [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:59:57 how does one force lexical-scope in lisp ? 02:00:03 with lables ? 02:00:11 err labels 02:00:20 homie: force? 02:00:31 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:00:57 homie: Common Lisp is lexically scoped by default. 02:02:11 abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-252-103.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:16 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:25 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:08:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:39 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has joined #lisp 02:08:44 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:20 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has joined #lisp 02:13:56 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 02:15:13 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has joined #lisp 02:17:14 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:29 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:23:42 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 02:24:42 thank you scheme, for blessing common lisp with lexical scope. 02:25:13 best thing about scheme IMHO. 02:30:46 hmm.. lisp 1.5 also had the capability of lexical scoping 02:31:30 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:27 (scheme did introduce lexical scoping as the default) 02:34:02 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:38:22 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A6823.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:03 cbeok [~user@cpe-76-84-47-156.neb.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:08 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:52 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.172] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:41:56 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has joined #lisp 02:44:14 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-252-103.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:45:52 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:45:52 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:20 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:48:31 when using a loop in a macro, should I create a gensym for my loop variables to avoid overshadowing things? 02:48:41 or will the loop macro itself take care of this? 02:50:23 loop won't take care of hygiene for you, no. 02:50:24 why do you think loop should take care of it? 02:50:55 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:51:16 adeht: OliverUv just wants to know if it would - would the answer to the question encourage you to rewrite loop if OliverUv's reason were compelling enough? or are you just feeling defensive? 02:51:19 adeht: I have no idea. Now that I think more closely about it that would be very strange 02:51:56 adeht: good to know, i'll have to actually read the Lisp 1.5 programmer's manual i got recently 02:52:10 I mean, if it did create its own hygienic loop variables then it'd also need to go through my do forms and replace my uses of that variable with the gensym 02:52:11 cbeok: perhaps my phrasing was ambiguous. I meant to ask how did OliverUv come up with the idea that it might 02:52:15 which would defeat the entire purpose 02:52:53 It's all ok, it made me think more closely about it, which I appreciate. 02:53:12 cbeok: but I'm feeling more defensive than ever, thanks for asking! 02:53:27 I have noticed that I take to asking this chat room a bit too quickly recently, should spend more time thinking first. 02:54:11 jhalogen: check out Joel Moses's paper about the FUNARG problem.. it also mentions the "activation environment" vs. "binding environment" issue 02:54:13 adeht: haha - sorry - sometimes I enjoy being a counter-dick - I've become extra-sensitive to the lisp community's M.O. for being unhelpful. 02:55:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:57:35 cbeok: I appreciate that, too. 02:58:31 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:02:24 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit:  In our sky there is no limits, and masters we have none; heavy metal is the only one! ] 03:03:18 -!- wubo`` is now known as wubo 03:03:32 Link- [TesTEERR@62.84.92.205] has joined #lisp 03:03:41 -!- Link- [TesTEERR@62.84.92.205] has left #lisp 03:07:46 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.92] has joined #lisp 03:13:46 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:15:55 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:35 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:17:51 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:25:22 adeht: sounds interesting, will do 03:26:10 adeht: is that famous, classic FUNARG paper? 03:26:51 yes 03:32:09 cbeok` [~user@76.84.47.156] has joined #lisp 03:34:19 -!- cbeok [~user@cpe-76-84-47-156.neb.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:36:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:13 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:16 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.92] has joined #lisp 03:44:02 -!- cbeok` [~user@76.84.47.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:44:39 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:47 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:22 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:14 wubo` [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:43 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@188-126-70-35.cust.vpntunnel.se] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 03:47:51 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:47 I dislike how stream-cursor-position doesn't take into account any (with-local-coordinates ..) it is inside of 03:54:02 >:( 03:55:33 (so for example (setf (stream-cursor-position stream) (values 0 0)) will set it to 0 0 in the sheet without regards to 0 0 in its local coordinate system being somewhere else in the sheet) 03:59:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:00:31 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@188-126-68-92.cust.vpntunnel.se] has joined #lisp 04:02:22 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-48-148.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:32 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@188-126-68-92.cust.vpntunnel.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:05:33 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 04:05:37 Good morning! 04:06:18 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 04:06:32 beach: morning! 04:08:12 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:11:56 what a lovely day to be writing exam resit :/ 04:12:17 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.92] has joined #lisp 04:13:35 Indeed! All day? 04:13:56 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:14:03 good morning 04:14:13 Hello ost. 04:14:29 -!- wubo` [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:38 beach: fortunately only from 12:00 to 13:00 BST 04:17:47 I still need to review my logic proofs 04:18:59 and get myself hyped up on coffee, it seems 04:19:09 I still think I'm failing this year, though :/ 04:19:25 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 04:20:50 damn, if only I could replace psychology scores with writing some awesome piece of software as a project... sounds easier than getting psychology up to par -_-; 04:21:50 You could write some perceptual experimens. 04:23:32 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:54 Zhivago: ... pulling all the necessary research to get awesome enough experiment would put me through 3 years of psychology :P 04:24:13 Nah. 04:24:30 Just get a bit of string and a pair of sunglasses and a whole bunch of university students. 04:24:42 Oh, and a small rock. 04:25:18 heh... 04:25:25 With that you can determine the effect of intensity driven latency in visual processing leading to 3-d effects in spatial perception. 04:25:57 You'd want to do something new, but I mean psychology experiments can usualy be done very cheaply as long as you understand statistics. 04:26:57 Zhivago: true. The issue is getting all the research groundwork etc. 04:27:02 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has joined #lisp 04:27:19 Funny thing, one of the questions on yesterday's exam was "Describe life-cycle of an experiment" :/ 04:29:25 There were some really nice experiments in perceptual stability a while back. 04:30:17 They'd get a someone to ask a random person for directions, then have two other people interpose an opaque sheet between them briefly, and while concealed, swap out the asker. 04:30:33 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:38 The answerer rarely noticed that the person they were talking to had been replaced, even if they looked quite different. 04:31:21 That was a really cool finding. 04:31:49 More and more I think that most of our intelligence is just a grab bag of cheap tricks. 04:32:54 it is, kind of. 04:32:58 how do you use the iterate package ? 04:33:21 Didn't some kind person document it? 04:33:42 though I find neurons to the biggest evidence against any "intelligent plan", that it was just dumb luck. 04:34:02 laoding it is ok, but then when i put the example (iter ....) or (iterate:iter ...) my slime will get into the debugger, however when i switch to the package itself the functionality is ok 04:34:16 (in-package :iterate) does it 04:34:29 but what if i want to use it from the cl-user package ? 04:34:36 is it not exported ? 04:34:55 homie: iterate: ? 04:35:09 Well, you might want to import some symbols into your user package? 04:35:45 i thought some would be already imported, nevermind maybe i just have to look at the package definition which are exported, and which not 04:39:14 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-48-148.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:39:59 tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has joined #lisp 04:40:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-4-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:40:19 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:41:43 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-21-212.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:42:08 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 04:42:41 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:43:18 You might be a bit confused about packages. 04:43:30 I think the name choice there was remarkably poor, myself. 04:44:17 What packages let you do is to resolve conflicts between symbols produced by different authors, and to avoid qualifying symbols with author information in the usual case. 04:44:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:45:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:46:44 So saying something like (iterate:foo ...) doesn't mean that ... cares about iterate more than what's outside of that form. 04:49:22 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:49:22 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 04:49:22 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:51:40 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 04:54:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:56:39 curi [~curi@h100.243.23.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:13 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:42 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:58:06 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:59:45 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tjhcfefbzzflfmtk] has joined #lisp 05:05:21 regarding macros and symbols... is there some established best practice of ensuring that the symbols end in proper place, or do I have to use fully-qualified names for each symbol? (inside a macrodefinition) 05:06:24 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 05:07:28 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:08:19 p_l: proper place? 05:08:22 fully qualified? 05:09:09 Ralith: "proper place" - right package, "fully qualified" - with package name etc. (package:symbol stuff) 05:12:01 beach: did climacs ever get the ability to do a slime-connect equivalent to another process running swank? 05:13:53 slyrus: I don't know. You might want to ask Athas, he doesn't utter very much these days, but he is frequently here. 05:14:17 ok, thanks 05:15:00 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:15:04 hum. Are there reasonably up-to-date git repos for all the darcs thingies out there? 05:15:12 notably babel, cffi, etc. 05:16:01 where is the official svn for hunchentoot? Is it the one from bknr ? 05:16:21 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 05:17:16 minion: chant 05:17:16 MORE GITHUB 05:18:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nxjtqzygjmabmbhs] has joined #lisp 05:19:36 lol 05:21:02 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:23:34 BrianRice` [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:46 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:25:46 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 05:25:56 labarumspiral [~cmsimon@c-98-246-44-198.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:52 -!- Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:28:10 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:28:21 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:32:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 05:39:42 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:53 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:46:12 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:47:53 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:48:58 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:50:13 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-74-144.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:51:11 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:26 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:56:56 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 05:57:32 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:57:35 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:58:47 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:04 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:20 i can't get pg up 05:59:21 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:59:23 grr 05:59:30 though cl-mysql is working 05:59:42 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113436 <- some d-bus fun :) 06:01:14 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:01:28 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:01:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:02:36 hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:07:11 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:59 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.179.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:08:13 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:09:44 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.177.169] has joined #lisp 06:10:21 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:14:38 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:11 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:17:58 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 06:21:31 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:25:57 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:26:18 ski [~slj@c-0212e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:29:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:31:25 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:30 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:37:03 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:37:35 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:37:43 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:38:31 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:38:57 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:39:11 Oh, no... attack of the clone bots. 06:39:35 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:39:41 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:14 timor [~timor@port-92-195-86-244.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:43:22 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:44:38 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:45:07 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: ztn] 06:47:26 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:06 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-86-244.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:52 good morning 06:52:55 hello mvilleneuve 06:54:31 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:54:40 mvilleneuve: 2:00am here 06:56:07 zc00gii: where is that? 06:56:24 *beach* guesses US east coast 06:56:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:56:48 no wait, further west. 06:57:30 beach: nope 06:57:31 ohio 06:57:38 it's in E{S,D}T 06:58:49 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 06:59:32 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:00:01 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:05 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-74-144.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:00:16 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 07:02:11 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:03:51 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:04:28 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:33 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 07:05:31 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:06:34 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:07:33 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-129-244.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:07:55 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Client Quit] 07:08:01 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 07:11:47 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:14:37 DiggPatriots [~NeedTorHe@201.160.239.249.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 07:14:44 good evening 07:14:58 hello DiggPatriots 07:15:13 is there any demographic data regarding Lisp programmers? 07:15:24 i need it for a thesis 07:15:35 comparing different programmers from different languages 07:16:25 Someone figured out that the average age here on #lisp is 32 (as I recall). But no hard statistics. 07:16:46 like age, sex, race, income, 07:16:50 abeaumont [~abeaumont@212.81.205.13] has joined #lisp 07:16:52 geographic location 07:16:58 religion 07:17:20 DiggPatriots: Is that kind of data is available for *any* programming language? 07:17:59 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C069.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:24 just curious 07:18:24 Digg: Lisp Programmers weigh an average of 600 liquid ounces. 07:18:42 i need to know if a negro is more likely to write buggy code than a Mexican, Asian, or White 07:18:55 Oh, here we go. 07:19:16 this is for a research project at the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México 07:19:17 DiggPatriots: hope for your sake that you're also going to include demographic data such as opportunity to educate oneself in that 07:19:24 Can someone kick this guy please? 07:19:28 of course 07:19:29 Well, it's a valid question. 07:19:31 we will correct for income 07:19:37 Unfortunately we don't have the data that you want. 07:19:37 educational background 07:19:49 DiggPatriots: sounds ok 07:20:22 we were curious about if there was affirmative action in the software industry in the United States 07:20:22 I wonder how likely lips programmers are to sport Unix Beards compared to other programmers 07:20:37 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:20:41 or if it is just on the government side 07:20:51 Digg: Presumably it would carry through from the university enterance effects. 07:21:05 Digg: Go and get your data elsewhere and publish your results. 07:21:19 Although I wonder why you care ... 07:21:25 perhaps we should do some sampling at a convention 07:21:35 any good conventions in the gringolandia 07:21:42 that unite programmers from different languages? 07:21:42 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:21:45 Off you go then. 07:22:10 Uh, I think that sampling would be very biased toweards the kind of people who end up working at companies and who end up working at positions high enough that the companies want to send them to conventions ;) 07:22:44 or maybe I should try to collaborate with Freenode 07:22:49 to do some sort of survey 07:23:15 we are tabulating data comparing Linux and Windows users 07:23:18 that would be a better idea, but I'd also try to collaborate with additional sources 07:23:25 the results are interesting 07:23:44 linux users in the United States are more likely to be Asian or White, middle to upper middle income 07:23:55 Windows runs the whole gambit 07:23:55 freenode users might be biased in any way or another 07:24:10 I suggest doing your survey in Africa. 07:24:35 well we are wanting to study American users 07:24:59 data will be later published by the IMET 07:25:31 Well, we don't have your data. Run along. 07:27:17 If you all would be interested in helping out the Facultad de Informatica 07:27:24 and the Facultad de Humanidades 07:27:29 with our study in conjunction 07:27:33 No. 07:27:39 with the Instituto Mexicano de Estudios Trológicos 07:27:51 give us a buzz at chimpout forum 07:27:59 c h i m p o u t . c o m / f o r u m 07:28:00 I knew it. 07:28:05 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 07:28:25 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q DiggPatriots!*@* 07:28:26 sigh 07:28:42 svitalnes [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:29:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.214] has joined #lisp 07:29:41 How likely is it to find support for racial attitude among educated circles, which I'd guess is the case here? 07:30:18 Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:32 -!- DiggPatriots [~NeedTorHe@201.160.239.249.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [K-Lined] 07:30:42 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:30:51 very likely 07:31:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:31:19 As likely as among non-educated circles, I guess. 07:31:19 however the manifestations will be subtle 07:31:21 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:32:51 Isn't "I am lucky to be in an educated circle." similar to racism? 07:33:03 why should education make a big difference in this case ? 07:33:39 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 07:33:42 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:04 Parental education can teach childen to become as rasist/non-racist as the parents. 07:34:09 it's a guess 07:34:25 maybe it is a big mischief to be in an educated circle... 07:34:35 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 07:34:41 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:34:55 and educated is not "ecucated".... 07:35:04 Well, there are significant biases in racial characteristics. 07:35:18 I think that the problem is not racism, but elitism. 07:35:31 Good point. 07:35:35 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:37 You can just look at the olympic gold medal distribution for racial biases. 07:35:46 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:03 Different racial groups have different physique distributions which leads to different levels of performance in extreme cases where individual difference is overwhelmed. 07:37:26 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-129-244.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37:27 It's likely that this extends into all aspects including intelligence and cognition. 07:37:30 Is there some lisp lib for interfacing with the google? 07:37:42 It's just a pity that the elitists make it a taboo subject. 07:38:20 schmrkc: drakma? 07:38:22 I'd like to digress to an on-topic question, if I may ;) : 07:38:23 Can you force Lisp to always output floating point numbers with non-default exponent markers? 07:38:25 The output should be independent of *read-default-float-format*. 07:38:46 arbscht: ok I will look at this. 07:39:17 mostly I just want some nice interfacering with google docs, google spreadsheets 07:39:23 I guess maybe the mail one too. 07:39:44 schmrkc: it is not specific to google, your original question was not clear 07:40:06 arbscht: Ok. 07:40:22 It did sound very clear in my head :) 07:41:06 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 07:41:30 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:42:21 seems a pain to parse that doc list. 07:43:49 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:46:02 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@212.81.205.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:54:16 Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 07:55:04 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:59:26 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:06:19 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:09:56 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 08:10:13 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:13 Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 08:24:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:26:56 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 08:31:34 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:31:41 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 08:33:32 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:34:20 mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 08:35:28 Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 08:36:59 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:49 yukach [~yukach@195.222.85.229] has joined #lisp 08:37:54 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:01 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:27 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007091.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 08:47:33 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:35 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:11 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:56 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:54:01 stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-62-95.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:54:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-62-95.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 08:54:03 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007091.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55:00 -!- labarumspiral [~cmsimon@c-98-246-44-198.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:55:52 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007091.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 08:56:05 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:00:53 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 09:01:11 I just experimenting with cufft. Its a library for calculating fourier transforms on the gpu. 09:02:53 there's cl-gpgpu as well 09:06:38 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:06:38 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 09:06:38 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 09:08:11 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-62-134.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:36 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:22 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-102-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:09:33 daniel [~daniel@p5082C328.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:03 p_l: I tried running angavrilovs cl-gpu but couldn't get all the dependencies to compile. Anyway for my application its enough to call a handfull of c functions. 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What's up? 11:53:55 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-46.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:20 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:55:56 beach: same old, same old. Looking forward to vacation the next couple of weeks. Just sticking close to home, though. Actually wrote some lisp the other day... 11:56:10 Excellent! 11:56:29 beach: which part of the world are you in at the moment? 11:56:42 splittist: In Bordeaux. 11:57:05 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:00 beach: preparing for the start of the academic year? 11:59:08 Not at all. I am on vacation, so I am working on SICL two days a week, CLIM3 two days a week, and I am working on my Vietnamese two days a week. 12:00:12 beach: sound fabulous! (/makes not to self to git pull sicl again) 12:01:13 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 12:01:18 splittist: Yesterday I spent the entire day reading the paper by Burger and Dybvig on how to print floating-point numbers accurately, and started implementing it for SICL. 12:01:55 -!- sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:03 Floating-point printing is the only thing left to do in FORMAT (as I recall). And that would be a good excuse to work on output in general such as princ, print, etc. 12:02:12 (Wow - my typing is terrible today.) Then the GLS etc. reading version - or have you done that? 12:03:21 er, sorry, GLS? 12:03:27 (probably obvious) 12:04:38 Guy L Steele (and JonL White) How to Print Floating Numbers Accurately (IIRC) 12:04:50 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-47-88.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 12:05:05 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.218.225] has joined #lisp 12:05:06 splittist: I think that was improved on by Burger and Dybvig. 12:05:23 beach: I think you're right (: 12:05:24 or did you mean `read' 12:05:39 ditto 12:05:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:06:07 There is a paper on how to read floating-point accurately as well, but that should be trivial to do by just calling FLOAT on the rational number. 12:06:07 Clinger? 12:06:20 splittist: Yes, I think it's Clinger. 12:06:59 Now, using FLOAT only moves the problem, of course. 12:07:13 beach: Why are you trying to prove that property of integer-decode-float? 12:07:40 rtoym: So that I can implement accurate floating-point printing as part of SICL. 12:07:50 (and be somewhat sure it's right) 12:08:04 Ah, ok. 12:08:31 Are you going to implement Burger and Dybvig from scratch? Cmucl and sbcl both have an implementation. 12:09:06 Demosthenes [~demo@153.sub-75-194-13.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:12 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 12:09:31 rtoym: I think I'll implement it from scratch. I don't like the way they did the Scheme version at all. Did you do it in a similar way or did you invent your own? 12:10:41 My original implementation pretty much followed the scheme version. Krystof loopified some of it. Then I added some additional features. (Maybe sbcl has similar changes?) 12:11:18 I guess I'll have a look at Krystof's version. 12:11:37 Krystof claims he is fairly sure it's correct. 12:11:57 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:12:29 Also, things have changed since they wrote the paper. Computing logarithms is not that expensive these days and is probably going to be dwarfed by the i/o. 12:12:36 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp 12:12:39 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:12:43 I'm pretty sure the original was correct and I'm quite confident Krystof's is too. The additional features are from Burger and Dybvig and I'm pretty sure they're correct too. 12:12:56 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp 12:12:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:13:02 rtoym: OK, good to know. 12:13:17 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp 12:13:20 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:13:38 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp 12:13:41 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:13:44 I hacked something so that princ was consistent with format. 12:13:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp 12:14:00 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:14:07 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has joined #lisp 12:14:22 rtoym: The paper doesn't show how (or at least doesn't prove correct) to deal with denormalized numbers. I am trying to show that I can do it with integer-decode-float and float-precison. 12:14:46 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp 12:15:09 Hmm. I hadn't considered that problem. Let me see.... 12:15:58 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:16:09 rtoym: And there is no portable way to get to the exact contents of the exponent field of the floating-point number. 12:16:13 Ah, prin1 and ~E are supposed to produce the same results. Sometimes they don't. 12:16:14 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-179-220.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:25 Er, didn't. 12:17:36 Apparently, nothing special is done for denormals. 12:18:00 slash_1 [~unknown@p5DD1C26B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:04 rtoym: So I am trying to prove that their method might work in that case as well. 12:18:25 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-13.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:18:57 rtoym: How do you get to the exponent of the float (required by the algorithm)? 12:19:24 integer-decode-float 12:19:28 -!- Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19:38 binarin [~user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 12:19:51 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:20:07 rtoym: That method is not portable as I told you yesterday. 12:20:17 Agreed. 12:20:26 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C069.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:20:30 rtoym: In particular, it won't work for SBCL. 12:20:56 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:57 Really? Why not? 12:21:20 -!- toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:22:47 rtoym: Because for denormalized numbers, SBCL doesn't use the same exponent for all of them, so what integer-decode-float returns has no relation to what was stored in the exponent field of the float. 12:23:02 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:23:09 Ah, then cmucl has the same issue. 12:24:12 And this is why I want to prove that it can be done portably, and then implement that portable method for SICL. 12:26:30 I guess I should see if I can find some examples where denormals are incorrectly printed. 12:27:18 rtoym: Sure, that would be great. Even better if you do them in the form of automated unit tests. 12:28:38 Yeah, but it's not so easy to figure out if the printed result is wrong. :-) 12:29:19 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 rtoym: Yes, I gave that some thought. Not easy indeed. 12:30:37 I'm not sure, except to read them back and see if they're exactly the same. Which only works if you're printing to full precision. 12:33:19 For single-precision, I considered just testing them all. 12:33:21 I'd do this sort of thing by taking multiple implementations and comparing their behaviour. I'd remember each case where two implementations (out of a possibly larger set) differ 12:33:57 tcr: Oh, but there is no requirement, neither by IEEE nor by the CLHS that the best external representation be used. 12:34:57 tcr: Furthermore, there is an infinite number of printed representations for a particular number that will read back to the same floating-point number. 12:35:22 tcr: Just add 000000000000000000000000000001, 000000000000000000000002 etc, to the end. 12:35:27 wow, i just read this: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.clojure.user/34129/focus=34272 12:35:35 and it felt really impressive and inspiring 12:36:49 beach: I'd think implementations usually try to use the shortest representation that still reads back 12:37:27 tcr: Allow me to doubt that, but I might be wrong of course. 12:37:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38:13 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:38:35 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has joined #lisp 12:39:19 -!- phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:42:43 pmd: i don't agree about libraries 12:43:07 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:31 stassats: i meant Tim Daly's (whom i don't know enough about) answer, and the OODA loop and symbolics machines 12:45:37 what post were you reading? 12:46:22 pmd http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.clojure.user/34269 12:46:26 pmd: Interestingly, you could do that in PL/I on Multics as well. Recompile the faulty module, type continue. 12:46:53 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:30 pmd: why do you feel inspired? I am feeling beat down that Clojure, which I intended to experiment with, has a big OODA loop 12:47:32 stassats: i agree with you 12:47:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:47:55 but it is a bit inspiring that they might implement clojure in clojure, that would probably help 12:49:09 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@77.19.195.65.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:49:16 OliverUv: i was imagining what i saw recently on a lisp machine at els2010, where the machine's own errors were debuggable as long as you had its sources, and even so quite debuggable because you could inspect the environment and select where to restart, etc. 12:49:50 OliverUv: nowadays, even with an open-source os, that's quite a hurdle 12:49:50 nice 12:49:55 yeah 12:50:29 i'm glad that my OS doesn't throw errors on me 12:50:38 Really? 12:50:53 by OS i mean only the kernel 12:51:31 beach: can you give me a good pl/i link to read about? 12:52:09 pmd: http://www.multicians.org/ 12:52:45 pmd: With Unix, we took a giant step backward compared to what we had with Multics. We haven't quite recovered yet. 12:53:14 as they say, worse is better 12:53:32 i'd complete that: worse is better for the masses 12:54:00 i'd rephrase as: good is better than perfect 12:55:27 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:29 Joreji [~thomas@92-100.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:57:39 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host213-186-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:01:25 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@153.sub-75-194-13.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:06:01 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 13:09:15 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:13:54 beach: You are the master of loop. Could you take a quick look at this and see if it is loop syntax that is causing the error, or if it might be something else in my program: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113455 13:14:20 OliverUv: you have two many parens. 13:14:21 Look at what you got after DO 13:14:22 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nxjtqzygjmabmbhs] has left #lisp 13:14:35 OliverUv: do (foo) (bar), not do ((foo) (bar)) 13:14:42 oh my!!! 13:15:07 the dangers of cut and paste and code blindness from "seeing that code before, working before refactoring" 13:15:12 big thanks for spotting it 13:16:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:16:31 and why do you set Y to the same thing twice? 13:17:05 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 13:18:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.218.225] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:21:08 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-148.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:24:24 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p5DD1C26B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:24:42 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:27:05 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has joined #lisp 13:27:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:27:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has joined #lisp 13:27:28 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:27:43 Because i will be different each iteration of the loop. 13:27:46 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has joined #lisp 13:27:53 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:27:57 minion: help memo 13:27:57 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 13:28:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 minion: memo for stassats: Because otherwise it's value (which depends on i) will not get updated each iteration of the loop. 13:28:44 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 13:28:52 see if he remembers the conversation later 13:29:00 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:29:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has joined #lisp 13:30:02 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:30 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:31:47 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.192.4] has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:45 phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 jxonas [~chatzilla@201.82.4.152] has joined #lisp 13:38:44 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:39:45 pmurias [~pawel@static-78-8-208-43.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 13:40:05 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-35-234.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:40:11 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:41:28 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:41:34 how are lisp images implemented? (i'm looking for info how i could implement them for my own Perl 6 compiler) 13:41:38 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 13:43:30 pmurias: Not sure what you are asking. Usually, you would write a Lisp compiler in Lisp, and have it generate native code, which you would then bootstrap with an existing Lisp system. 13:44:20 pmurias: You can write a lot of the high-level Lisp functions in Lisp. The low-level stuff you might have to write in assembler or C, such as low-level i/o, arithmetic, memory management, etc. 13:45:16 pmurias: I don't see how Perl would be useful here at all. 13:45:48 beach: what i want to do is to implement saving a Perl program to an image 13:45:55 not implement lisp 13:45:59 Oh, I see. 13:46:39 and i'm curious if there are any smart ways of doing that 13:47:41 urandom_ [~user@p548A5407.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:28 The easiest is probably to just take a shapshot of the (mmapped) memory, but there are probably issues such as open file descriptors, etc. that you have to deal with. 13:49:32 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.241.219] has joined #lisp 13:52:44 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:56 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:01 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007033.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 13:53:43 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:53:57 hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:04 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:13 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:53 Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 14:00:54 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:17 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C26B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:23 rtoym: the reason for [1, 2[ rather than [0,5, 1[ is that you don't lose 1 bit of precision. 14:15:21 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007033.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:18:47 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 pmurias: instead of mmap, you could use the garbage collector. It knows how to enumerate all the active objects. So you can save them to a file, and later restore them. 14:19:18 pmurias: If it's a mark-and-sweep collector, it just enumerate the objects, you can add the copying to and from the file. 14:20:19 pmurias: if it's a copying GC, then it should be trivial to implement copy-to-disk and copy-from-disk versions of it. Then saving and loading images can be seen as garbage collection done between a disk-based heap and the RAM-based heap. 14:21:08 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A5407.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:01 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23:25 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23:31 The problem with open file descriptors and similar 'external' resources, you can solve it by having a specific condition thrown when trying to work with these resources in the restored image. The applications can then deal with these conditions in an adequate way. 14:23:58 carlocci [~nes@93.37.209.246] has joined #lisp 14:24:11 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-73-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:24:29 pmurias: notice that in the case of files, clisp tries hard to re-open them (and seek to the saved position). But it's not always possible (the files may have disappeared, or worse, changed). So you still need a way to signal the "disconnect". 14:25:07 In the case of network sockets, it wouldn't be possible to "seek" to the right place in the protocol anyways... 14:26:56 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:56 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tjhcfefbzzflfmtk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:28:07 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:28:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:29:46 minion: forget my memos 14:29:47 OK, I threw it out. 14:30:01 OliverUv: it will be updated on each iteration 14:30:25 consider (loop for i to 10 for y = (+ i 10) do (print y)) 14:31:46 stassats: oh nice, that'll clean my code up a bit 14:31:57 I was only considering the alternative with 14:34:25 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:34:59 cbeok [~user@76.84.47.156] has joined #lisp 14:35:02 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:35:19 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-73-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:36:20 Demosthenes [~demo@m3e2436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:37 lnostdal-android [~androirc@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:38 Bronsa [~bronsa@host213-186-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:48:04 what is common way for generate dsl syntax with macro ? 14:48:18 for example, clsql syntax 14:49:06 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Quit: Meow, meOUT!] 14:50:59 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 14:51:11 hi 14:51:16 hello 14:51:50 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:38 now that made my coffe, i'll try resolve my last weblocks error 14:55:42 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 14:58:09 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 14:58:11 milanj: macro characters 14:58:29 milanj: or, to be more precise, reader macros 14:59:03 jdz, hmm syntax need to be read under changed read table 14:59:15 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:25 but how to generate that code, it's not lisp list 14:59:34 -!- cbeok [~user@76.84.47.156] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:00:16 milanj: reader macro function reads from a stream, so if it is not lisp syntax, just don't use lisp reader 15:00:21 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:58 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:46 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 15:01:48 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 15:01:48 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 15:01:50 hm, it can be done with (read-from-string (generate-non-lisp-syntax)) under changed read table ? 15:03:35 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.41] has joined #lisp 15:04:43 milanj: to be honest i don't quite understand what is it you want to do 15:05:24 milanj: DSLs in lisp don't usually (in my experience) go into the realm of custom reader syntax. 15:05:39 milanj: Regular old macros should get you most of the way there. 15:06:36 That said, depending on what kind of syntax you want, you might be able to just get away with some read macros. (let ((*readtable* *my-altered-readtable*)) (read-from-string (generate-some-syntax))) 15:06:57 yes, that was my guess 15:07:28 i need something like "[and [= [foo] bar] [= [baz] bla] ......" 15:07:49 milanj: CLSQL already provides that syntax. 15:08:14 yes, but i want to generate that syntax 15:08:26 if you want to write it yourself, I suggest not doing that. 15:08:28 look at postmodern. 15:08:40 I quite prefer that approach. Specially since it doesn't need the silly read syntax. 15:09:02 minion: postmodern? 15:09:03 postmodern: Postmodern is an interface to PostgreSQL SQL databases. http://www.cliki.net/postmodern 15:09:32 ok,thanks 15:14:24 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:00 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:21 milanj: if you just need to use brackets instead of parentheses you still have a sexp. 15:15:25 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:15:33 It's trivial to add a reader macro to #\[ so that you read lists from it. 15:15:54 milanj: otherwise, if you need to mix non-sexp-based syntax with lisp code, indeed reader macros are the way to do it. 15:16:35 Kenjin [~josesanto@92.250.50.64] has joined #lisp 15:16:38 milanj: as mentionned, they work on the source stream, so they can read character by character and do all the lexical analysis and syntactic analysis required. The only thing of course is that reader macros must return a lisp object (that doesn't need to be a sexp). 15:17:24 milanj: however, as you noticed, it is not often that such alien syntaxes are implemented in lisp, because they don't have the advantages sexps have. 15:17:49 milanj: I'm not as experienced as the rest of these folk, but here's an example I've seen (and used) that shows how to use *readtable*and #\{ and #\} to simplify reading hashtables: http://frank.kank.net/essays/hash.html :) 15:18:03 milanj: just as an example of the type of thing you might have to do, if you go that way :) 15:18:44 hargettp: the problem with a syntax such as {:test => 9, "foo" => 3} is that it's not easy to manipulate. 15:19:07 pjb: oh, I here ya'....I'm just pointing out the example to show what's possible :) 15:19:08 hargettp: it would have been easier if you had written a macro or a function accepting a sexp such as (:test 9 "foo" 3). 15:19:36 hargettp: sure. Just to show that it demonstrate my point about why it's not often done. 15:20:09 It would only be justified as a user interface requirement... 15:22:18 chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has joined #lisp 15:23:12 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.36] has joined #lisp 15:23:12 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m3e2436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:23:43 pjb: whether one should is different than whether one could....agree with you that generally one should not bother with the overhead of reader macros :) 15:23:53 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:12 pjb: I use a utility _function_ called MKHASH, with lambda-list &rest keys-and-values. :) 15:25:30 works quite nicely, and I don't need any funky syntax. Indentation provides more than enough as far as visual cues go. 15:27:01 -!- splittist [3ecb7bee@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.203.123.238] has quit [] 15:27:23 -!- hjack [~hjack@2001:470:e1d0:29a:dead:beef:face:666] has left #lisp 15:27:40 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:28:24 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.245] has joined #lisp 15:30:50 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:32:45 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:50 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 15:34:47 hargettp: how does the {...} syntax know the hash compare function? 15:36:29 (forget it, it's always 'equal) 15:36:39 pmd: ...or any other hashing parameters, indeed 15:36:57 *Xach* always specifies a :size to help get the fastest hashes 15:37:02 I think it's supposed to provide inspiration only, not a fully-operational extension (: 15:37:34 I was just showing one specific example of how to use reader macros....not at all intended to be general...and I'm not even the author of it :) 15:37:45 btw, is it best to use an 'equal hash or an 'eql hash where we use (sxhash key)? 15:37:46 antifuchs: indeed 15:38:11 also: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3222747467111424@naggum.net.html 15:38:13 wait, i'm being silly here... 15:38:26 pmd: iirc, sxhash doesn't make very useful guarantees... 15:38:52 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:39:18 god damn it 15:39:22 drawing with clim is useless 15:39:59 text stream cursor doesn't care about its local-coordinates when I specify its position 15:40:00 sykopomp: exactly, it would be silly to use sxhash's result as the key, and then a string could collide with an object, and there would be no way to tell 15:40:14 G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 15:40:15 The only justification I can think of for using {} for hashtables is to transparently be able to read and write JSON. 15:40:33 so, sxhash is (only) supposed to help people implement their own hashtables? 15:40:55 pmd: not necessarily. You might want to just generate hashes for stuff. 15:41:13 and specifying :clipping-area in a with-drawing-options has a similar problem, where it won't care about being in a cell in a table (though all other things will consider their table cell as their drawing area) 15:41:24 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:28 sykopomp: right 15:41:30 sxhash isn't really useful for anything 15:41:36 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:41:45 hacking around the first one was easy, this clipping area thing will take effort >:( 15:41:52 I am highly opposed to effort. 15:41:53 jsnell: what other way do you have of hashing without diving into implementation details? 15:41:57 jsnell: well, SBCL uses it in CLOS, iirc. 15:42:24 but I guess SBCL knows exactly what guarantees its sxhash is going to make :) 15:43:13 pmd: well, (defun hash (object) 42) isn't a lot worse than sxhash for some kinds of data 15:44:15 basically sxhash is only useful for a very small set of types, and those you could support by having your own hash 15:45:20 and as a bonus you won't be tripped up by stupid lisp implementations that e.g. implement sxhash of fixnums by shift to the left (when they meant to shift to the right) 15:45:35 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:46:59 Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 15:53:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:44 FareTower [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:36 Are there any implementations that actually enforce the 'immutability' of literal data? 15:55:46 SBCL 15:55:54 does anyone understand buffering in SBCL and how to control it? Apparently, SBCL isn't READing SEXP from a named pipe until after the buffer is full or the pipe is closed. 15:55:55 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:27 I wanted to use pipes as a messaging mechanism - it's not boding well. 15:57:09 stassats: oh. So it does. 15:57:17 I must've not seen that big loud warning before :) 15:57:43 it coalesces literal objects during COMPILE-FILE 15:57:55 sbcl doesn't enforce immutability 15:58:17 it warns at compile time for some cases where a literal is modified, but not others 15:58:19 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:58:28 jsnell: it yells at you, though. And I guess it might cause bugs if it doesn't compensate. 15:58:30 and it doesn't for example write-protect literal objects 15:59:11 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:59:34 well, it doesn't enforce it technically, but you'd better not modify literal objects 15:59:42 (because of coalescing) 15:59:59 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:27 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-35-82-250-203-180.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:01:47 sure, but by that metric probably every CL implementation "enforces" immutability of literals 16:03:18 CCL, for example, doesn't 16:03:41 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:04:03 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:04:04 CLISP doesn't warn, either. Don't know if it's just silent about it, though. 16:05:24 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:02 you don't need coalescing for mutation of literals to cause funny behavior 16:06:23 (defun foo (x) (let ((a "a")) (when x (setf (aref a 0) #\b)) a)) 16:06:37 (foo t) (foo nil) 16:07:23 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:07:28 This really doesn't seem like such a worthwhile optimization. 16:07:48 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-db8672d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:08:29 not creating new object every time it's called sounds good 16:08:35 Does it help that much, considering the problems it might cause if you're not careful about 3.7.1? 16:08:47 and it does warn you 16:08:51 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 16:09:48 stassats: it sounds good, but not creating a new object every time every other function is called does, too. 16:10:11 I think you guys are totally missing my point 16:10:21 for it to be limited to 'literal' objects seems more like trouble waiting to happen. Specially when it comes to strings. 16:10:32 jsnell: you're trying to make a point? 16:10:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@92-100.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:10:55 yes, my point is that your definition of enforcing is totally ridiculous 16:11:47 sykopomp: well, if you're writing non-conforming programs, problems are always waiting 16:12:00 sorry. What I meant to ask was whether that would have a tangible effect on programs considering _actual_ implementations. 16:12:29 enforcing the immutability means that the implementation doesn't let you modify the literal 16:12:43 jsnell: okay. I meant something different. 16:13:04 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:13:38 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-26-180.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 FareTower: do you mean unix local sockets, or Windows Named Pipes? 16:15:32 unix named pipes 16:15:58 FareTower: ah...not used in SBCL yet, sry 16:16:39 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@92.250.50.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:11 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:19:15 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:08 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:25 *FareTower* wraps his head around sb-impl:refill-input-buffer 16:30:43 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:08 Has anyone been hearing anything about ILC plans? 16:33:50 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 16:33:53 rpg: I've heard of two guys working on an asdf paper 16:36:20 -!- tankrim` [~user@c-2ffce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:37:06 arquebus [~d@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 16:37:16 -!- arquebus [~d@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:04 ;-) 16:38:12 jdz [~jdz@host114-70-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:38:20 I was wondering what people have heard about the size of the submission pipe. 16:38:33 rpg: oh too short, I fear 16:38:41 many people didn't expect an ILC this year 16:40:33 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-19-241.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 16:41:54 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-4-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:03 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:49:15 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:49:35 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 16:49:43 FareTower: What will you do with the audio recordings you made at the most recent Boston Lisp Meeting? 16:50:32 Unhappily, I ran out of memory before then end :( 16:50:34 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:14 how long was it ? 16:51:18 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:51:24 4 h ? 16:52:01 gutenmorgan 16:52:12 FareTower: But I only spoke for five minutes! 16:52:45 xach: thank you for the lispjobs suggestion yesterday, i have received a ton of fascinating communication and CVs 16:53:30 jhalogen: glad to hear it. 16:53:44 Xach: I don't know if I started the recording then :-/ 16:53:46 jhalogen: lots of people read planet lisp, which republishes lispjobs entries. 16:53:56 Xach: call me a bad, bad, recorder. 16:53:59 FareTower: How about the photographs? 16:54:16 I took photographs? Then my camera remembers. 16:55:31 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-35-234.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 17:02:14 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:02:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 17:04:49 *Xach* wonders if Fare's cowboy hat restricted the flow of blood to the brain 17:05:20 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:23 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:06:51 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:09:11 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:11:24 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:11:25 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 17:14:36 -!- TomJ [~tomj@78.148.49.136] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:16:15 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:47 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-179-220.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:11 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:18:23 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:23:10 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:22 Where can I find something that defines an XLIB-GL package? 17:30:34 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:31:04 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:11 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:16 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:40:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:16 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:45:32 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.86.241.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:35 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:46:35 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:47:54 are you trying to run McCLIM's OpenGL backend or similarly ancient code? 17:49:17 danlei [~user@unaffiliated/danlei] has joined #lisp 17:50:08 mmmmmaybe 17:51:21 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:22 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.181.157] has joined #lisp 17:56:25 xach: re planet lisp: it was very nice opening my browser and seeing the post there (planet lisp is my homepage) 17:56:42 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:58:01 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10556.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:10 sykopomp: you suggested cl-smoke and common qt yesterday as opposed to my Qt approach. Others are steering me in that direction as well. I think I will abandon that mutant approach. 17:59:10 *stassats* spots a Smug Lisp Weenie 17:59:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 18:00:34 i hope you're talking about me 18:00:52 easyE [zdC1tHjw64@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:55 jhalogen: yeah 18:01:16 stassats: awesome, it's official 18:01:36 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008244.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:01:47 i'm actually trying to use commonqt, it's quite usable 18:02:02 good to hear. 18:02:06 not without some hacking 18:02:06 jhalogen: what was your QT approach, as a matter of interest? 18:02:25 *rsynnott* is unsure if commonqt's Windows issues ever got sorted out 18:02:35 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.245] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 18:02:38 -!- curi [~curi@h100.243.23.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:02:59 rsynnott: implementing Common Lisp in Qt. There's an ecl in Qt now, with no clos. 18:03:05 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:05 ah 18:03:07 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:03:11 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 18:03:14 i have a repository http://github.com/stassats/commonqt/ which addresses some issues i encountered (not windows) 18:03:23 that sounds like... considerably more work than commonqt :) 18:03:35 *sykopomp* didn't know Qt was a language. 18:03:43 (or some kind of implementation VM) 18:03:44 ha yes 18:03:56 *rsynnott* tried using wxWidgets at one point 18:03:59 that was a bit of a mess 18:04:12 sykopomp: it's diverged enough from c++ to be considered independently, in my opinion. 18:04:25 had to steal the C++->C binding from the Haskell wxwidgets implementation... 18:04:27 although, who cares, it's still painful 18:04:32 rsynnott: it WFM on windows, but presumably for noone else 18:04:42 lichtblau: commonqt? 18:05:03 (but mainly only because the stupid sbcl.core references /home/david/*.dll, I think) 18:05:19 heh 18:06:00 rsynnott: stealing from haskell, that's novel 18:06:15 jhalogen: well, it had a usable C binding 18:06:19 wxWidgets itself is C++ 18:06:27 i've met some great haskellers here in LA 18:06:44 the idea of using SWIG seemed hopelessly optimistic :) 18:07:22 curi [~curi@h100.243.23.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:52 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-148.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:10:02 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 I've finally decided that the path of least resistance is just to use cocoa on ccl and carefully pretend that Windows and Linux don't exist :) 18:12:46 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:13:25 wx is very crashy 18:13:32 from our experience, anyway. 18:13:54 in all honesty, i've found regular (modern) TK to be the most stable and portable GUI builder. 18:14:08 and today's TK uses native widget sets, so your apps don't all look like Motif anymore. 18:14:32 rsynnott: ha. windows, yes. linux, i'd be dead in the water. and windows is rearing its head in my devel again. sigh... 18:14:51 bougyman: what's native on linux? 18:15:04 printk? 18:15:06 bougyman: oh, really? I hadn't realised that 18:15:09 stassats: it'll use gnome or kde, otherwise fall back to the standard TK stuff we know and hate. 18:15:14 makes it a less awful prospect then :) 18:17:09 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 18:17:49 if I wanted to write something commercial, i'd probably use LispWorks and CAPI 18:18:43 TK is the only lib we've been able to actually write one codebase for and have it portable without any hacks. 18:21:09 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008244.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:17 lichtblau: hmm, i'm trying out hemlock.tty's hemlock:repl for the first time, and i don't quite understand how it works. when i evaluate something, it zooms off the top of the screen. 18:27:22 Xach: damn. Mac user? 18:28:27 or more generally speaking, which kind of terminal are you using? 18:28:40 lichtblau: xterm 18:28:47 v215 18:30:11 hmm! xterm should work. When exactly does the problem occur? Can you type/edit a line? Is it only after RET that things go wrong? 18:30:55 lichtblau: I can edit a line. The prompt appears in bold at the bottom of the terminal. If i evaluate something with a lot of output, I see a lot of output, then a lot of blank stuff scrolling it up off the screen. 18:33:42 hah, never noticed that. Rather embarrassing failure mode. 18:34:08 Turns out I never tried it in plain xterm, only using screen-in-xterm, and screen doesn't do that. 18:34:18 ah 18:37:01 Thanks for letting me know. It even looks like I'll have time for some lisp hacking this weekend. 18:37:14 gnome-terminal has a completely different failure mode, fyi 18:37:42 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:37:52 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:04 *Xach* found bugs in tilde.lisp as a result of playing around with this, too 18:38:05 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:38:42 *lichtblau* heart tilde.lisp 18:42:18 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.209.246] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 18:43:59 interesting, not even gnome-terminal and konsole agree 18:45:32 what's tilde.lisp ? 18:45:59 lichtblau: urxvtc 18:46:08 fe[nl]ix: something that makes sbcl aware of ~ at the start of namestrings. 18:46:19 fe[nl]ix: with its traditional unix shell meaning 18:46:27 ok 18:47:02 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:24 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:47:31 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:49:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:50:02 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:02 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:14 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.87.181.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:41 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:01 has anyone noticed that lispworks' font sizes are slightly smaller than in native windows? 19:02:34 for instance, i use consolas-8 everywhere for monospaced text, and it is different in lispworks than in every other application 19:04:04 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725746.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:04:47 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host213-186-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:07:13 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.20.7.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:20 Lis [~Lis@p5B2042AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:47 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.208] has joined #lisp 19:09:14 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.208] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:06 hi all. 19:11:12 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 19:17:07 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:05 Does anyone actually maintain the CLSQL list? 19:21:19 Shaftoe: Yes, Kevin Rosenberg does. 19:21:22 I receive periodic updates, but I've tried submitting a couple of patches and have received no response. 19:21:49 (I also tried joining, afair, and that was not successful either) 19:24:27 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 19:28:52 does anyone have his email? 19:29:22 kevin at b9.com is him 19:29:28 thanks 19:29:33 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:30:07 -!- benny [~user@i577A145E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:47 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:37 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 19:37:54 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:41 -!- danlei is now known as loona 19:40:50 -!- loona is now known as danlei 19:45:15 milanj [~milanj_@77.46.210.175] has joined #lisp 19:46:17 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 19:47:51 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C26B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:47:59 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:05 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:12 -!- Lis [~Lis@p5B2042AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:58:09 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-179-220.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:34 Xach: herep 19:58:54 howdy 19:59:31 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:04 olgagirl [~olgagirl@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:01:10 So you collect interesting c.l.l links. You haven't happened to gather up a list of all the threads where iteresting discussion of the standardization process occured, have you? 20:01:33 gigamonkey: I haven't sorry. It wasn't a topic of interest to me at the time they occurred. 20:01:42 I'm interested now, somewhat, but not enough to go back digging. 20:01:45 Oh well. Guess I'll be doing it. 20:02:07 gigamonkey: please let me know if you find anything out. i am fascinated by the process they went through. 20:02:09 I do have a searchable index of all of Kent Pitman's posts, similar to my Erik Naggum searchable index... 20:03:18 gigamonkey: did you get more information from guy steele than was published in caw? 20:03:39 -!- olgagirl [~olgagirl@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:12 jhalogen: then come to the next ILC (in Reno). I'll be talking all about it. 20:04:27 Xach: ah, url please! 20:04:41 gigamonkey: excellent. i will be there. 20:04:44 gigamonkey: not finished 20:05:04 avallark [~user@59.93.13.163] has joined #lisp 20:05:07 is kevin still active as a lisper? haven't heard from him in years 20:05:09 hello all :) 20:05:18 FareTower: quite. 20:05:46 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:48 gigamonkey: great book you have with practical common lisp. just came in to say thank you for the book. 20:05:48 gigamonkey: I'll see how much trouble it'll be to send you something useful and get back to you. 20:05:52 jhalogen: wc -w raw/guy-steele.txt final/guy-steele.txt 20:05:52 59016 raw/guy-steele.txt 20:05:52 18703 final/guy-steele.txt 20:05:52 20:06:08 avallark: glad you liked it! 20:06:14 :) 20:06:20 Xach: thanks. 20:06:52 gigamonkey: well I am liking it.. still only going through the initial chapters :) thanks for providing the online free copy 20:07:17 avallark: No problem. Enjoy. 20:07:33 gigamonkey: was that a file transfer? nothing came through. never done one through irc before. 20:07:45 christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:46 gigamonkey: went through a lot of trouble to combine all of them into a single pdf file. but its quite clunky as its from the html, it would be really great if you could have a pdf file out. 20:07:51 jhalogen: no. it was some shell output. 20:08:24 -!- Fare is now known as Guest92123 20:08:28 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:08:48 xach: ahh. that's what it looked like, i didn't think irc could be so fancy. 20:08:55 -!- jxonas [~chatzilla@201.82.4.152] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 20:09:42 xach: are you speaking at ilc as well? 20:09:44 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:09:50 jhalogen: no, I was just showing you the relative sizes of the raw transcript of my Steele interview vs the final text. 20:10:23 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:55 rvirding [~chatzilla@h115n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:05 gigamonkey: i didn't read the lines underneath because i am so narcissistic, now it makes sense. 20:11:51 gigamonkey: now i am REALLY looking forward to your talk. 20:14:27 Xach: what was that thing that KMP used to talk about? "Substandards"? 20:14:42 jhalogen: No plans to formally speak. Maybe I'll do a lightning talk again. 20:14:43 As in a way to layer some standards over/under/around CL 20:14:45 gigamonkey: yeah. 20:14:57 Nothing ever came of that, right? 20:15:14 That that I know of. 20:15:27 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 20:16:27 "Opening design to democracy is a good way to randomize the design" -KMP 20:17:14 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:17:41 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 20:18:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:19:44 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:19:47 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:57 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:21:10 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:16 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:23:28 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10556.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:26:55 92AAAXVQI [~user@p548A41B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:11 -!- 92AAAXVQI is now known as urandom_I 20:28:25 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.20.7.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:56 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.125] has joined #lisp 20:32:03 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:32:58 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:15 Okay, now I can't even find any of the endless Pitman v. Garret wars. My google fu is weak. 20:34:43 I don't remember many (any?) of those. Maybe I filtered them out. 20:34:54 lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:35:13 They would have been in the Gat days. 20:35:16 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 20:35:48 -!- lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:08 I'll summarize: Gat/Garret: "Unless there's a way to change things, Lisp is busted." Pitman: "No." 20:36:29 And, #@$%@#$% Google Groups. Would you stop deciding which articles to expand and which to contract. 20:36:37 google groups is pretty terrible now. 20:36:49 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:37:52 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 20:37:58 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:38 francogrex [~user@109.130.155.195] has joined #lisp 20:39:49 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.13.163] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:39:55 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:41:35 benny99 [~benny@f055053140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:04 -!- benny99 [~benny@f055053140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:02 benny99 [~benny@f055053140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:12 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.155.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:40 -!- danlei [~user@unaffiliated/danlei] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:44:59 Maybe I can't find them because they were really Gat v. Seibel wars and I've repressed the memories. 20:46:38 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 20:47:21 danlei [~user@unaffiliated/danlei] has joined #lisp 20:47:41 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07d6be.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 20:55:03 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-34-133.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:16 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:05:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:00 -!- benny99 [~benny@f055053140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:08:24 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-133-1.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:08:24 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-133-1.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:08:24 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:10:02 Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-34-133.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-34-133.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:13:17 francogrex [~user@109.130.155.195] has joined #lisp 21:14:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:14:40 Ah, this is promising. A thread started by Garret, subject line "How Common Lisp sucks" 21:15:10 If one has a large list of lists that needs preserving for other sessions would (with-open-file (stream... (print list stream)) be the best way or should one use serialization ... or? 21:15:37 -!- jdz [~jdz@host114-70-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:15:51 francogrex: depends what the leaves are, but that might be reasonable. 21:15:59 "best" depends on too many variables. 21:16:24 Though you'll probably want to wrap your writing and reading in WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX 21:17:59 gigamonkey: ok/ by best I meant that in the next session just to be able to pick up from where i stopped with that list without or with minimal mucking around to get the original list back 21:19:22 gigamonkey: all his reverse psychology made CL get better and better year after year, apparently. 21:20:46 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:27 -!- bighouse [~bighouse@modemcable154.162-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:09 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:25:30 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-34-133.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:26:13 francogrex: assuming everything in the list of lists can be printed readably, it should work. 21:26:37 If it's really big, it might not be the most performant thing. But I wouldn't worry about that until profiling shows you it's a problem. 21:27:17 I've gotten away with implementing a persistent data structure WRITE'ing out a big list after *every change* 21:28:04 gigamonkey: ok great, i'll do that then, thanks 21:28:06 _3b`` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:13 Buganini_ [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 21:30:28 -!- pmurias [~pawel@static-78-8-208-43.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:34 mqt` [m@lambda.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:51 pr_ [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 21:30:53 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: tltstc] 21:31:05 zc00gii_ [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:10 johanbev_ [~johanbev@136.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:17 zfx_ [1028@gouda.underthedesk.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 nullman` [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:51 egn_ 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[Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:45 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 21:56:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:00:58 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:07 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:02:49 atomx` [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 22:03:22 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:45 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:58 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:05:59 Xach: am I misremembering or did you somehow suck down all the c.l.l posts for some time period? 22:06:55 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:07:07 benny [~user@i577A1F4E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:57 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:20 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:54 lispm [~lispm@d220000.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:27 -!- efnx [~schell@cpe-76-174-254-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: efnx] 22:14:58 -!- lispm [~lispm@d220000.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:27 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 22:17:57 gigamonkey: L. Ron did it and offered it to the world. 22:18:17 -!- zc00gii_ is now known as zc00gii 22:19:09 gigamonkey: he got it from some internal google contact, was my impression. 22:19:29 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:20:14 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:23 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.155.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:36 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:31 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:26:08 Xach: Ron as in Garret? 22:26:47 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:20 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:27:53 yes 22:28:14 Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-77-215.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 22:28:35 Onyxyte_ [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:51 Which, better yet, I found most easily on a Xah Lee web page. 22:28:56 About Erik Naggum. 22:29:28 Just because I'm curious. Was that "L." short for "Laugh"? 22:30:06 Lafayette, I think. 22:31:03 Eh. Now I'm confused. Never mind, I guess. 22:31:48 *Xach* tries to remember how his new search index works 22:32:37 gigamonkey: L. Ron Hubbard! 22:33:59 Xach: *whipsers* The major reason I wrote the IOLib tutorial was so I wouldn't forget how to use it. :) 22:34:00 sykopomp: that's how I first read it. 22:34:36 psilord1: I was really in the thick of working on it but got seriously derailed for months...oops. 22:36:47 Xach: I have a graveyard of such things. Sometimes I walk among them..."Lovecraftian Interactive Fiction 2001-2004 R.I.P", "mp3->sheet music AI" 1998-2008 R.I.P" *sniff*. I need a drink. 22:37:33 that mp3 thing would be useful. :) 22:38:14 *Xach* has the data for a rob warnock & kent pitman search archive 22:38:19 *Xach* must finish the software 22:38:21 psilord1: oh, you're the guy that wrote the iolib examples/tutorial! 22:38:25 Fade: It got pretty far, actually, I needed a small cluster of computers to make it go... 22:38:26 psilord1: thanks for that. It's quite nice :) 22:39:47 sykopomp: No problem! I appreciate your thanks very much. 22:39:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77.46.210.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:40:43 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:55 I built a Master/Worker system on top of it designed to be interfaced with batch scheduling systems and be able to handle several hundred to the mid thousands of slaves. 22:41:07 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.160] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 I'm about to release it in a week or so, except I've never realeased anything for CL before and aren't entirely sure how to go about it. *sheepish grin* :) 22:41:26 psilord1: I still need to figure out how to write a nice ring buffer system for my server :( 22:42:05 Isn't that just a circular list? 22:42:31 no 22:43:05 (this is mostly a problem because I've never worked with ring buffers, and I've never written an event-based tcp server before) 22:43:25 sykopomp: Didn't I implement a ring buffer in example 8 or something in the iolib tutorial? 22:43:44 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:43:47 psilord1: did you? As far as I could tell, you were just draining each buffer as soon as you could. 22:43:47 For the nonblocking i/o example? 22:44:09 so whatever you had in the input buffer got immediately dumped in the output buffer, and vice-versa. 22:44:34 sykopomp: well sure, but in accordance to the reads and writes it doesn't have to always be the case that the buffer is drained. Stuff could sit in there for a bit. 22:44:34 fe[nl]ix: A ring buffer is not a circular list? Then I must have the terminology mixed up. 22:45:05 psilord1: I'll have to look more closely, then :) 22:45:38 I punted on doing it for output by simply having a queue of strings. That's probably good enough... 22:46:08 a circular list can be a ring buffer, but it's quite inneficient 22:47:10 rtoym: a circular list could be considered a ring buffer, but usually it's a vector with start&end offsets/pointers 22:47:25 abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has joined #lisp 22:48:29 fe[nl]ix: Ok. I usually use vectors with start/end pointers, but with Lisp, I could just a nice circular list and not worry about the adjusting the pointers ath the "end". 22:48:58 sykopomp: ok, I looked at my codes, I don't implement a true ring buffer, instead I read the data up until the end of the array and when the last write is done, I restart from the beginning. This is slightly different than a ring buffer. 22:49:09 yeah 22:49:17 However, in the master/worker codes I did, I was much closer to a ring buffer. 22:49:40 psilord1: turning off the read/write seems like it may be a better alternative to having an overwriting ring buffer, too. 22:50:18 What I did there was if I found there was wasted room in the vector when reading (because the consuming pointer was close behind it) I slide the entirety of the valid data to the start of the array and kept reading. 22:50:39 This way I maximized how much I could read in one go. 22:50:52 but you had to shift the entire array over? 22:51:12 Is that not as bad an idea as it sounds? 22:51:16 Kritoslap [~Kritoslap@188.24.230.157] has joined #lisp 22:51:24 sykopomp: Yup, I shifted it. It absolutely didn't hurt performance since talking on the network is far slower than moving bytes in ram. 22:51:34 -!- Kritoslap [~Kritoslap@188.24.230.157] has left #lisp 22:51:38 -!- Guest4935 is now known as mqt 22:51:46 hm 22:52:11 I thought about a true ring buffer, but honestly the bookeeping of the indicies was worse in maintenance costs for a performance increase I couldn't justify. :) 22:52:20 yeah. 22:52:26 that makes sense :) 22:52:27 rtoym: can you pass a circular list to unix:unix-read ? 22:52:35 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:52:47 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 22:52:50 ldunn [~user@d110-32-133-1.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:52:59 sykopomp: And after much analysis, I found I only ever shifted a very small number of bytes at any given time, even with 16K or bigger packets. This is with buffers that were 128K or so. 22:53:47 sykopomp: I even profiled it, and there just wasn't a concern. The actual work of the master or slave algorithms dwarfed the memory copying costs. 22:54:43 sykopomp: So, I chose the more maintainable method for implementation. I've been coding long enough to know that you really only ever fix things like that when they become a problem, and they are only fixed by adding complexity. So Don'T Do It unless you have to. :) 22:54:55 :) 22:55:27 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:42 shifting would indeed fix the issues I had. I think I'll do that! 22:55:59 -!- urandom_I [~user@p548A41B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:43 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h115n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:56:45 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 22:58:45 sykopomp: Yeah, definitely give it a go, You'll find that you can keep going with the codes which use it, and if it becomes a problem, you can always fix it later.... I really thought it would be a problem in the way I implemented it for the exact same reason you thought. :) It just wasn't. 23:00:46 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:16 sykopomp: I remember now the fundamental reason why the ring buffer wasn't a good thing to use.... Basically, the kernel can only write bytes from the network layers into a contiguous piece of memory. Crossing an edge of a vector to wrap around isn't contiguous. Hence the read/write must always be split into two pieces. 23:01:33 ah 23:01:39 Since the split *must* happen, then the sliding algorithms makes the split as efficient as possible since you always read and write the most you can. 23:02:55 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:22 Suppose your buffer is 16K long, and you have 1K messages. then 1 our of 16 messages would need to be slid, and there is a random percentage chance from 1byte to 16K that you'd have to move to the beginning to keep reading the rest of the packet. 23:03:45 well, 16k -1 I should say. 23:06:46 Of course, in my case the packets aren't so well sized, they range from a few bytes to hundreds of K depending on the data going back and forth. But if you had set sized things, you can compute precisely the cost of sliding in relation to network communication. 23:08:08 I wasn't paying attention when I wrote the 1K packets in 16K of buffer cause you'd always read the 16'th packet so that the end coincided with the end of the buffer. If you read varying sized packets, the algorithm is more obvious. 23:09:44 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-166.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:12:39 -!- johanbev_ [~johanbev@136.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:12:42 johanbev [~johanbev@136.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:14:00 I'm out for a while. Later! 23:14:52 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:58 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 23:15:13 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 23:16:05 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 23:16:08 PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 23:17:25 psilord1: thanks again for the help :) 23:18:46 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:19:44 sykopomp: no problem, and now I'm really afk. :) 23:22:10 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:23:25 fe[nl]ix, hi 23:23:32 hi FareTower 23:23:41 -!- FareTower is now known as Fare 23:24:57 -!- benny [~user@i577A1F4E.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:52 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:26:27 Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:30 -!- danlei [~user@unaffiliated/danlei] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:36:03 by outputing plenty of spaces, I can work around SBCL's buffering of named pipes as if they were files. 23:36:06 benny [~user@i577A1F4E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:36:06 sigh. 23:36:17 I still think fd-stream's buffering code stinks. 23:36:23 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:36:45 there's no reason to insist on filling a 4096 byte buffer when the buffer already has enough data to fulfill the request. 23:36:45 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 23:36:51 for a character 23:37:03 -!- Onyxyte_ is now known as Onyxyte 23:37:23 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.26] has joined #lisp 23:40:12 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:23 *Fare* therefore successfully uses the XCVB standalone backend with SBCL as a slave. Yay! 23:41:44 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:39 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:48:38 -!- Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:49:00 Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:07 -!- curi [~curi@h100.243.23.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:50:14 lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:50:47 -!- lauanana [~lauanana@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:29 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:53:52 curi [~curi@h215.215.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:37 http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100810012924AAloakw 23:59:52 -!- atomx` [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]