00:03:18 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:05:56 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:08:56 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:09:28 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:26 abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-252-120.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:53 ccl has an extension: if ccl:*print-abbreviate-quote* is non-nil, then the normal printer (not just the pretty printer) will print lists whois first element is QUOTE or FUNCTION specially. (It's t by default.) So if you use ccl, that could be getting in your way. 00:19:13 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 00:19:28 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:20:31 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:40 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4DD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:26:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:12 -!- vulak [~user@brln-4dbc4921.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Ein guter Abgang ziert die Übung.] 00:26:22 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:26:26 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal42-1178046578.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:26:55 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has joined #lisp 00:27:42 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:29:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-252-120.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:29:42 davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has joined #lisp 00:30:10 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:46 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:40 abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has joined #lisp 00:32:51 abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-252-120.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:06 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-49-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:35:05 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-66-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:41:46 pocket_ [~pocket_@p1196-ipbf3801hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:42:39 how do you count how many packages are already loaded ? 00:42:51 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A357.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:45:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.151.35] has joined #lisp 00:45:37 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:45:45 (loop for i in (list-all-packages) ...) but what ? 00:46:41 err match # ? 00:46:43 packages is not something that gets loaded 00:46:57 i mean the systems 00:47:54 use asdf:map-systems 00:48:04 Sorry if this is a stupid question but why doesn't (expt (expt -1 1/2) 2) return -1? 00:48:53 what should it return? 00:49:01 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:49:04 -1 seems to make sense 00:49:14 Elench: rounding errors 00:49:18 Hmm, actually (expt -1 1/2) doesn't return i 00:49:23 ok, thanks 00:49:23 oh, you se "doesn't", i read as does 00:50:08 (loop for i in (seqt s (list-all-pacakges) collect s)) ? does not make sense or ? 00:50:29 it does not even work 00:50:31 antifuchs: welcome, in advance, to Oakland! 00:50:31 urgh 00:50:43 homie: doesn't make sense at all 00:50:50 what are you trying to do? 00:51:20 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal42-1178046578.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 00:51:23 count how many # occurrences there are 00:51:34 clhs length 00:51:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 00:51:51 homie: 1 or 0 00:52:09 wtf is seqt supposed to be O.o 00:52:19 which can be accomplished with (find-package "BLA") 00:52:46 homie: it sounds like you think list-all-packages is returning a string. 00:52:48 that's incorrect. 00:52:50 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok071104.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:52:51 clhs list-all-packages 00:52:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_a.htm 00:53:39 i think homie is just confused and doesn't want to tell what he's really trying to do 00:53:53 probably 00:54:01 but we might as well correct some misconceptions along the way 00:54:22 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p1196-ipbf3801hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 00:54:29 and perhaps even convey how awesome the clhs is 00:54:30 if only we knew what they are 00:54:34 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:55:09 guessing's fun! :D 00:57:51 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-152-155.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:58:06 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.151.35] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:59:30 o o 00:59:45 (length (list-all-packages)) gives me 290 00:59:53 eheh 01:00:38 Is fli (Foreign Language Interface) only for win32 C APIs? 01:01:46 Nevermind, it seems it is LispWorks FFI 01:05:44 Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has joined #lisp 01:07:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:08:52 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:09:51 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:14:34 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:35 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:17:13 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:23:43 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:26:12 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 01:36:17 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:40:28 argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:28 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440259.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:46:00 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:05 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:56 danlei` [~user@pD9E2C802.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:05 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2CF22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:50:09 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 01:56:44 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.2] has joined #lisp 01:57:26 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:49 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:04 Mesh [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has joined #lisp 01:59:42 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.151.35] has joined #lisp 02:02:35 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:03:51 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 02:06:08 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:06:48 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:07:42 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:12:53 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h115n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:18:23 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:20:46 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:04 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok071104.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:34 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:23:39 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:29 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.151.35] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:25:22 homie: that's not possible: there are no libraries for CL. 02:26:59 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:31:56 Good morning everyone! 02:32:57 pjb: ?? 02:33:10 morning beach 02:33:36 peterhil_: CFFI may be of interest 02:34:08 mode +b #lisp 02:34:36 ups 02:34:43 eheh 02:35:07 :) 02:43:05 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:09 i know this is offtopic, but I'm interested in lisper's views on the google-verizon pact (if the room will allow) 02:46:10 It will lead to the wide-spread adoption of functional programming in a procedural environment. 02:46:25 hahaha touche. 02:46:29 if that is an accurate analysis, then I am fully supportive! 02:46:37 me too. 02:46:44 akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-173-095-175-246.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:01 I don't know. I guess it depends on google's support for the K Lambda on android. 02:47:38 is that qi thing? something to do with python compilation? 02:47:40 hi, whats the best way to match argv like "--script" with sbcl? http://paste.lisp.org/display/113392 this is what i have so far 02:48:33 i'd like to see a common lisp implemented in Qt 02:48:37 wanting to do it without having to include any other libraries 02:48:37 slap that on nokia phones 02:48:38 Yes, and nothing to do with python. 02:49:29 thank you for the illuminating explanation. 02:49:30 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.151.35] has joined #lisp 02:50:01 But it should make it easier to target dalvik from lisp. 02:50:57 hmm.. that is definitely interesting. i've been meaning to explore dalvik. 02:52:12 is there a current methodology for targeting dalvik using common lisp? 02:52:29 akimbo: It is a bit strange. h_dir and c_dir seem to be special variables, but the naming convention for Lisp variables is to use `-' rather than `_' to separate words. And for special variables, it is a good idea to use "earmuffs", i.e. `*' around them. 02:53:02 mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:03 are they really called earmuffs ? 02:53:10 or is that your invention ? 02:53:10 beach: is that all variables or just ones i want as global 02:53:35 homie: I don't have enough imagination to invent something like that. 02:53:42 lol 02:53:57 akimbo: Earmuffs for globals only. The `-' is for all variables. 02:53:57 it sounds weird 02:54:10 but at the same time enjoying 02:54:14 ah ok 02:54:18 homie: That's what it looks like: *hello* 02:54:55 any way to match an argv like "--test=moo" 02:56:18 homie: I assume you have done a (defparameter h_dir ...) or (defvar h_dir ...) beforehand, because setf needs for the variables to exist already. 02:56:34 oops, that's for akimbo 02:56:40 jep 02:56:54 beach: ahh no i didnt 02:57:43 all my variables need to be declared beforehand? 02:58:20 akimbo: Check whether (subseq arg 0 7) is equal to "--test=" and then get (subseq arg 7) for the value. 02:58:25 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 02:58:38 akimbo: All non-local variables have to be created. It is not a declaration. 02:59:04 akimbo: Local variables need to be created to, but that's done with `let'. 02:59:11 is there anyone out there who has experience implementing a common lisp in c++ who would be interested in talking about it? 02:59:14 ah ok 02:59:23 tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has joined #lisp 02:59:27 jhalogen: Why in C++? 03:00:00 Zhivago: i need to target Qt for real-time 3d applications 03:00:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:00:10 akimbo: Why not traverse the list looking for items starting with --, and then collecting that item and the next into an association list? 03:00:34 Zhivago: thats what i want to do im just curious on the match operation 03:00:37 My hope is I can capitalize on the Qt libs by implementing Common Lisp within it 03:02:22 i can't come up with a better strategy for making executables that can include lisp code that are capable of truly modern graphics functions 03:04:44 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.178] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:05:10 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-173-66-252-120.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:38 -!- toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:06:27 akimbo: So did you see my suggestion for matching? 03:07:59 -!- Mesh [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Like it? Visit #hydrairc on EFNet] 03:10:53 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.151.35] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:11:33 jxonas [~jxonas@187.106.53.93] has joined #lisp 03:11:45 beach: i did but is there another way where I dont have to give it the positional arguments? 03:12:12 akimbo: use (position #\= arg) to find it. 03:12:16 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Quit: brb.] 03:12:26 beach: ok let me try this 03:14:05 stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-18-206.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:14:05 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 03:14:09 -!- stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-18-206.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 03:14:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:14:26 beach: yay thats awesome! 03:15:29 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 03:17:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:44 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:43 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok071104.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:28:20 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:43 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:04 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 03:37:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dbaxfpeszwkynrac] has joined #lisp 03:39:29 Does anybody have any ideas about how to spell/grammar check a language such as Vietnamese? 03:39:32 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 03:39:53 Traditional spell checkers won't work very well because almost all "words" are legal. 03:40:53 beach: I give it to my wife for checking. 03:40:53 what about the PAIP way ? 03:41:22 tessier: Good plan. My wife doesn't know Vietnamese though! :) 03:41:30 homie: What way is that? 03:41:33 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-152-155.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:55 beach: That can be remedied! 03:42:03 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42:09 tessier: In theory it could, yes. 03:42:30 however it requires someone who knows the language well 03:42:32 beach: There are two possibilities that I see... 03:43:07 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43:54 give it to tessier's wife? 03:45:41 She would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. 03:47:24 -!- rme [rme@clozure-B3A8751D.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:47:24 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:48:38 beach: Vietnamese oversegments, so you're dealing with a syllabification rather than a lexicon. 03:49:07 beach: You'll need to start by determining the 'word boundaries'. 03:49:19 Yeah, that's exactly the problem. 03:49:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:50:21 This is essentially a segmentation problem. 03:51:31 I can see how to find word boundaries if there are no spelling errors in there. But then, if there aren't, then I don't need to spell check it. 03:52:12 Well, it's the same either way. 03:52:17 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:31 You're trying to find a minimum beam cost with different groupings. 03:52:43 essentially the cost under given variations. 03:52:53 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ahlehxllposmmryp] has joined #lisp 03:52:57 This can be extended to changing syllables. 03:53:34 If your beam cost can be significantly reduced by substituting a syllable with a high error probability then you can edit the text to use that and assume that is the correct spelling. 03:54:01 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:07 The classic approach here is to find the viterbi path. 03:56:01 You can then look for high cost gradients as being likely spelling error indicators -- essentially spelling errors should be unusual choices. 03:56:49 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 04:00:12 Searching for viterbi ngram vietnamese should find the appropriate literature. 04:03:28 Zhivago: Thanks! 04:05:46 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:06:45 Welcome. 04:10:04 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:35 Languages that make 'class' a reserved term really annoy me. 04:12:28 Languages with reserved words really annoy me. 04:13:15 Yeah, much like cl:map 04:13:52 joshe: like CL? 04:15:03 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 04:15:32 Fortunately CL has packages so that you can disambiguate authors. 04:15:52 I knew as soon as I hit enter that someone was going to nitpick me :/ 04:16:45 I thought you just hated CL. :) 04:16:46 joshe: #lisp stands by its name 04:21:19 fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-235-159.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:25 greetings 04:21:29 rlpowell: herep 04:22:37 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:41 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:24:02 minion: message for rlpowell: I need to pick your brains on spath and its usability as an XPath processor. Perhaps as a s-expy drop in for the Java XPath libs. will shoot you an email by 08/14 if you're not around by then. i am reachable at 'bigthingist' on gmail. Cheers! 04:24:02 i need a wash and dry 04:24:18 fusss: Try `memo' 04:24:25 oh 04:24:40 minion: memo for rlpowell: I need to pick your brains on spath and its usability as an XPath processor. Perhaps as a s-expy drop in for the Java XPath libs. will shoot you an email by 08/14 if you're not around by then. i am reachable at 'bigthingist' on gmail. Cheers! 04:24:40 Remembered. I'll tell rlpowell when he/she/it next speaks. 04:24:47 thanks beach :-) 04:24:53 fusss: No problem. 04:26:01 and on that note, if anyone got plexibbus-xpath to behave sanely, i would love to know about their setup; what lisp and OS. because i have been struggling with it. 04:26:56 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:27:18 fusss: Hi. 04:27:19 rlpowell, memo from fusss: I need to pick your brains on spath and its usability as an XPath processor. Perhaps as a s-expy drop in for the Java XPath libs. will shoot you an email by 08/14 if you're not around by then. i am reachable at 'bigthingist' on gmail. Cheers! 04:27:23 not really struggling, but i am running a lisp fork of a massive java app just to use XPath, and pretty soon I am gonna cave-in and will need to re-learn Java. been avoiding it successfully so far, running this freak API compatible web service of my own writing. 04:27:31 You are the first person to ask me about any CL thing I've ever done. :) 04:27:40 rlpowell: private? 04:28:01 rlpowell: i have been nagging you about weblocks as well, and GNU Smalltalk. I am a fan :-) 04:28:29 fusss: I've never touched smalltalk in my life, but yeah, I remember the weblocks. 04:28:38 Now if only I was currently spending any time on any of these things. :) 04:28:50 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:51 awwwww, that must have been s1011010101 04:28:54 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 04:29:21 It's been pretty quiet in here tonight. I don't think anybody'll mind if we talk here. But whatever. 04:29:21 dude, I am cornered by crap and need to ask a bunch of questions. accept the pvt please. 04:29:28 oh 04:29:55 but the chan is logged 04:31:25 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 04:32:23 fussssssssss 04:33:24 hey Samy 04:33:37 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:40 sbahra: haha, every time we talk I am in a different city :-P 04:33:49 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.235] has joined #lisp 04:34:52 I left D.C. again 04:41:45 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 04:46:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:48:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:50:31 -!- jxonas [~jxonas@187.106.53.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:51:36 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:38 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-235-159.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 04:54:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:55:11 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 04:56:57 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Sleepy] 05:00:15 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:05 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:11:20 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2C802.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:13:25 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:44 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:16:21 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:19:11 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:22:24 -!- lnostdal-android [~yaaic@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:45 lnostdal_ [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:46 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:44 -!- R3cur51v3 is now known as Wvm\R3cur51v3 05:28:00 -!- Wvm\R3cur51v3 is now known as R3cur51v3 05:28:04 -!- R3cur51v3 is now known as Wvm\R3cur51v3 05:28:23 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-13-190.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:30:10 hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:31:48 tcr1 [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:19 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 05:33:49 lnostdal-android [~yaaic@77.19.65.138.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 05:34:14 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-148.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:35 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:43 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:38:14 Alchemy [~alchemy@dyn-62-56-61-228.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:38:25 -!- Alchemy [~alchemy@dyn-62-56-61-228.dslaccess.co.uk] has left #lisp 05:38:36 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:38:50 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:39:11 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:39:16 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:10 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:42:30 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:42:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-199-196.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:43:00 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-199-196.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:57 im trying to do some simple test of a var is not nil but having some issues in my main function http://paste.lisp.org/display/113396 05:44:52 i keep getting "Asserted type NUMBER conflicts with derived type (VALUES NULL &OPTIONAL)." during compilation 05:45:33 akimbo: /= can only be used on numbers. 05:45:33 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-148.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:45:37 clhs /= 05:45:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm 05:46:08 akimbo: use (not (null *src-dir*)) 05:46:33 ah 05:46:47 *_3b`* would just use *src-dir* directly 05:47:06 _3b`: That is frequently not considered good style. 05:47:27 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:47:56 <_3b`> beach: not by me :) 05:48:05 akimbo: Rather than (+ mumble 1) use (1+ mumble) 05:48:16 _3b`: Yes, I understood that! :) 05:48:36 <_3b`> particularly in this case, i'd find (and foo bar) much more readable than (and (not (null foo)) (not (null bar))) 05:49:03 beach: in the positioning statement? 05:49:56 akimbo: Wherever you use (+ anything 1) use (1+ anything) instead. 05:49:59 <_3b`> aside from the reduced complexity, it seems like the 'not' part is the important part, as opposed to the 'nil' part, so no reason to use NULL 05:50:07 ok 05:50:19 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 05:50:25 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-147-144.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:05 akimbo: Oh, and not that it matters much, because *argv* is going to be short, but it is not terribly efficient to use position and nth to figure out the following argument. 05:51:35 what is a better way to do it? 05:51:44 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:50 <_3b`> akimbo: also, the logic on that IF seems a bit strange... you only check for commandline options if the vars are set, and they can only be set if you checked for command line options? 05:52:17 akimbo: (loop for (arg val) on *argv* when (string= arg "--src" (setf *src-dir* val))) or something like that. 05:52:21 _3b`: yea im still working out making sure both options are set before proceeding 05:52:40 beach: ok ill look into that :) 05:55:19 soo tired ;( thanks guys for the help going to get some rest 05:55:59 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:56:01 -!- akimbo [~akimbo@cpe-173-095-175-246.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: sl333p] 06:02:48 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:54 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 06:04:39 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05:54 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:12:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:10 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:16:36 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:18:13 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:24:55 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-152-155.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:25:04 timor [~timor@port-92-195-19-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:25:07 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-19-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:19 -!- Wvm\R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:26:31 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:56 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:23 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:28:31 Wvm\R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:35 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 06:31:24 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:31:43 I'm so happy! I just learned about the second danger of using let in macros, the one where you are using let outside the quote/backquoted expression! 06:34:04 there's no danger involved 06:34:09 OliverUv: symbol hygiene ? 06:34:13 it's "just" a thinko 06:34:34 billitch: confusing macro's code executed at compile time and expansion code 06:34:43 (the latter will be executed at run-time) 06:35:11 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:35:41 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:35:56 billitch: not really, but I am not sure I know what symbol hygiene is any more 06:36:03 I gotta look that up again 06:36:46 tcr: Yeah, I forgot that I don't have the environment available so any expressions there must depend only on the symbols used as arguments for the macro 06:36:56 OliverUv: i don't if "symbol hygiene" is a proper name but i meant exactly what tcr said 06:37:03 so you can't call the macro with a function call as argument 06:37:37 because the function call needs an environment to execute in 06:38:46 if you are interested and don't get what I mean I can translate this code and upload it to paste, but that would be for your enjoyment, I've already started moving the let inside the quote and gensymming to my hearts content 06:38:55 OliverUv: yes or you can see macros as only processing the litteral forms you pass them, and not execution time values 06:39:30 yeah, that's the way I usually think of them 06:39:47 wubo` [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:06 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:41:11 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 06:41:29 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:52 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:42:02 good morning 06:42:32 hi 06:43:07 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:43:26 hello mvilleneuve 06:47:55 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:29 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:53:52 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:42 -!- SeSe [~SeSe@92.23.149.255] has left #lisp 07:03:07 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:05 sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:34 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:41 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:30 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:07:12 _8david [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:26 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-2-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:09:57 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:10:30 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:11:38 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.155.229] has joined #lisp 07:11:52 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:13:20 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:14:12 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:40 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:00 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:15:19 -!- Wvm\R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@96-42-84-114.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:40 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B8DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:20 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:16:48 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:17:40 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:18:08 Hum, is there a way to open a file in emacs, and immediately have slime launched with the loaded file already slime-eval'd? 07:18:23 Something I could alias so to call it from the CLI 07:18:36 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-71-27.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:18:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:19:04 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:19:18 Axioplase: is it really so hard to use C-c C-k? 07:19:27 emacs -nw -black-magic file.cl (and, if possible, split the window in two parts: one with the file, one with the slime repl) 07:19:45 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:27 Axioplase: i guess you just write a function to do what you want in your .emacs, and then use --eval or somesuch to call the function 07:20:39 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-152-155.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:45 jdz: I don't like having each time to m-x slime, c-x c-2 to split, c-x b to iswitch and have both the file and slime, and then m-x slime-eval-buffer 07:20:54 but to be honest, i don't see how this can be useful... 07:21:08 (I don't always have an emacs running) 07:21:26 and when you write some lisp code, it is all in a single file? 07:22:21 jdz: I want that to run a program and benefit from embedded readline. Though I could use rlwrap, sbcl and a call to LOAD, but I'd lose the ability to add stuff as I run the program. 07:22:28 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 07:22:46 jdz: As far as current code I write in CL is concerned, yes. Single file. 07:22:50 Axioplase: you know you can connect to a running lisp if you start the swank server? 07:22:51 Yes there's a slime function which starts slime and loads a file 07:23:03 bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.161] has joined #lisp 07:23:44 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 07:24:06 http://i.imgur.com/zsPDr.png 07:24:12 jdz: I want to run slime at the same time as emacs. I don't care once emacs is launched, so connecting to a running lisp is not what I care about. 07:24:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:27:22 jdz: so, something like emacs -nw -run-slime -split-in-two-with-file-above-and-slime-below -and-then-slime-evaluate-the-file -and-finally-put-focus-in-the-REPL file.cl 07:27:45 I can't remember the name, and I can't find the function 07:27:47 Which would save me much time, as I keep doing this manually 07:27:58 tcr: I can't find it either 07:28:54 Axioplase: do you know C-c C-z? 07:29:06 that should save you at least some time, until you find the right function 07:30:25 jdz: quite good. Now I just wish that m-x slime would run in background, and not replace the currently viewed buffer 07:30:33 Seems you have to roll your own, basically use slime-lisp-options + slime-start and a custom :init-function 07:30:45 It does not replace the currently viewed buffer 07:30:51 (I guess I could script that in emacs, but I'm a vim user. I use emacs only to run/debug code) 07:30:55 It should not even hijack focus 07:31:06 navigator [~navigator@p548973E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:15 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:40 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.161] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 Axioplase: so, there's your problem right there! :) 07:32:29 tcr: it immediately shows *inferior-lisp* instead of my buffer and then the REPL. 07:33:09 Do you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) in your .emacs? 07:33:11 Now, I guess you see why I'm pissed of (and I see why we were not really understanding each other) 07:34:00 tcr: nope! 07:34:35 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:49 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34:53 but it doesn't seem to change anything. 07:36:55 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:38:24 Sorry I don't have the time right now 07:38:26 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:38:52 Anyway, thanks. I'll try later too to fix this out. 07:39:36 I suggest you try to use Slime like most people do 07:39:56 And give up Vim for Lisp programming, too :-) 07:41:25 or use slimv! 07:41:37 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:16 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:48:38 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 07:50:39 Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 07:53:42 Demosthenes [~demo@236.sub-75-194-240.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:39 nostoi [~nostoi@83.39.37.130] has joined #lisp 07:56:40 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:41 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 07:57:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-45-52.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:00:16 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Quit: red1ynx] 08:00:18 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@83.39.37.130] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:05 Joreji [~thomas@92-100.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:07:13 Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 08:08:46 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:45 Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 08:09:57 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:10:23 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:11:02 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:54 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:19:18 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B8DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 08:22:09 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 08:23:33 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:24:04 Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 08:25:52 Pholious [4dfb2441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.251.36.65] has joined #lisp 08:26:11 Hey guys, is there a basic regexp replace function in common lisp? 08:26:44 minion: cl-ppcre 08:26:45 cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 08:28:28 think it's (replace-regexp-in-string "[^l]l" "EL" "hello hello") in emacs, but doesn't seem to work in common lisp? 08:29:16 I need some help with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113398 08:30:16 Pholious: Common Lisp is not Emacs Lisp. use a library such as cl-ppcre for regular expressions 08:30:27 Macro troubles :( 08:30:53 arbscht: ahh, just figured it required a download, figured it would be in the basic library :D 08:31:00 arbscht: cheers 08:34:04 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e962.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:54 OliverUv: You need a base case in the macro's code itself 08:35:05 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e962.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35:23 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e962.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:49 (if (basep ) `(progn ,@body) `(something (recursive-invocation ))) 08:36:41 if the values are not constant at compile-time you have to move the recursion into the expansion itself, e.g. via expanding to labels 08:36:42 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:37:47 the values are not constant at compile time 08:38:00 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.155.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:38:02 I'm not sure what you mean by expanding to labels? 08:39:08 In case it's not constant at compile-time you cannot unroll the loop at compile-time 08:39:24 instead you have to expand to code that loops (or recurses for that matter) 08:39:44 Shouldn't (= x (rationalize x)) return T if x is a floating-point number? 08:40:38 it is only a floating point number at eval-time, not expand-time 08:41:13 OliverUv: My question is unrelated to your problem. 08:41:19 What is the correct terminology for this? Expand-time feels pretty self evident, should I call the evaluation which is done after expansion runtime? 08:41:31 beach: ah, ok. My mistake. 08:41:59 beach: no. did you mean (= x (float (rationalize x))) ? 08:42:05 Ah, sorry, I was reading rational and rationalize backwards. 08:42:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42:55 fe[nl]ix: no I didn't mean that. 08:43:23 tcr: Hm, feels like I'm postponing the problem. I'll do some sketching and ask further questions later, I think. Thanks for the help. 08:43:49 beach: yes, rationalize is an approximate conversion 08:44:25 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@adsl-68-123-188-249.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 08:45:10 I guess this could be solved by telling the compiler to not touch the macro, and instead just have that part be interpreted. Any way to do this? 08:45:51 You are confused 08:46:09 Krystof_: Right. Now is there any kind of requirement on rationalize, such as giving the one with the shortest denominator? 08:46:32 OliverUv: You have to expand to code that loops at run-time 08:46:45 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440259.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:46:50 because your loop depends on runtime values 08:46:56 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46:59 beach: formally, probably not; you could implement rationalize as rational 08:47:01 Does that make sense to you? 08:47:15 Krystof_: OK, that's what I thought. Thanks! 08:48:26 tcr: Ah, right, I think so. I might still be a bit confused. 08:48:31 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 08:48:39 Right yeah it's clear. 08:49:17 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:46 It's a delicate issues, and it usually takes quite some time until one got all the implications of the different times you can evaluate code in Common Lisp 08:50:25 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:50:30 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:50:40 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:13 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:52:07 yeah 08:53:06 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440781.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:53:18 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:54:15 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:56:22 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:57:34 So, I am a bit confused. The CLHS entry for FLOAT says it returns number that is mathematically equal to its argument. Either that is wrong since not all rationals can be represented exactly as floating-point numbers, or else I have a different definition of "mathematically equal". 08:58:57 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e962.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 08:58:58 It *might* have been the case that they meant "as defined by =", but that is not true either because = converts the floating-point number to rational before comparing, so they can still be different. 09:00:21 or just within single-float-epsilon of its argument ? 09:01:08 There is no entry en the glossary for "mathematically equal". 09:01:55 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:18 good morning 09:02:48 Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 09:02:51 hi antifuchs 09:03:25 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:04:13 hello antifuchs 09:07:39 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek146.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08:30 is there an off-topic lisp channel? 09:09:17 Quadrescence: theoretically 09:09:23 lispcafe or something like that 09:09:33 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082E48A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:27 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:49 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:11:42 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:12:07 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:12:35 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082ECDB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:16:35 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21:25 Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 09:21:25 toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:23:41 jan247_ [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 09:23:41 -!- jan247_ [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 09:23:41 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:24:43 antifuchs: Congrats on the Franz job. 09:24:57 thanks (: 09:26:10 Working on Allegro or semantic web stuff? 09:26:39 (I thought I heard someone say that's their biggest source of income now...) 09:27:29 plans are that I'll work on both, actually. 09:27:39 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:27:39 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 09:27:49 so, yay! 09:30:02 you'll never be able to work on sbcl anymore :-) 09:31:27 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:31:31 yeah, there may be some unpredictable conflict of interest scenarios 09:31:47 but I won't stop running boinkmarks or the git gateway in the foreseeable future. 09:32:00 ...which is pretty much the only work I've done on sbcl in the past (: 09:37:44 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.150.156] has joined #lisp 09:38:42 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:21 *tcr* wishes for (DEFSTRUCT (FOO (:TYPE PLIST)) ) 09:47:33 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:49:01 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-71-27.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51:19 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:01:30 is Vladimir Sedach around? 10:01:33 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:51 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:01:55 his crusade against macros on cliki is... well, questionable. 10:02:21 what crusade ? 10:03:48 stuff like "I am just going to delete this, not only is it NIH, but NIH of a "def" macro? I mean it would be funny if it was a joke... -- Vladimir Sedach?" 10:04:12 where ? 10:04:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@92-100.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:04:31 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:04:48 he's annotating the description of dozens of other project's he spares with a warning to read the great macro debate... 10:04:56 fe[nl]ix: http://www.cliki.net/Recent%20Changes?start=30 10:06:00 Well, if there were any real criticism of the macros in question ... 10:06:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:12 he's doing a lot of useful things, too 10:08:41 Surprisingly it's always the use of macrology of others that border justifiability. :-) 10:08:43 i just wonder why he's not annotating iterate while annotating bind with that warning... my point is: the line drawn between "good" macros and "bad" macros by him is merely a subjective opinion. 10:09:08 tcr: heh, great minds... :) 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:24 That's why you need to provide criticism when criticizing. 10:10:45 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:11:40 heh. that page is a bit one-sided. 10:11:52 Zhivago: i very much agree with that. but still, the majority of those criticisms re macros would be subjective preferences anyways... 10:12:57 also, he's linking to a post by brucio... isn't he the guy whos posts were torn apart regularly by lispers? 10:13:52 brucio is satire. 10:14:06 he's xach's lisp weenie alter ego 10:14:10 heh, yeah, i just read that post... :) 10:15:03 Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 10:15:18 although you shouldn't mention to him that I said that. spoilers and all (: 10:15:51 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:17:11 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:41 danlei [~user@pD9E2C802.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:07 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@236.sub-75-194-240.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:24:23 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A46F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:40 He linked to that as an example of satire. 10:26:56 i couldn't help editing that page... i hereby invite you all to contribute: http://www.cliki.net/The%20Great%20Macro%20Debate 10:27:59 ost``` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 10:27:59 -!- ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:50 i read "parodied" as: look at that post, it's so stupid that it's beyond limits... -- until i read it. 10:39:33 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:35 -!- az [~az@2a01:4f8:101:4a2::9c00] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 10:42:06 I really liked the "Graceful IF" post. 10:43:10 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:43:20 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:43:39 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:43:55 bos dias 10:45:23 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:35 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:45:37 is no easy begin with weblocks 10:45:54 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:46:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:48:03 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:49:23 *Xach* scowls at antifuchs 10:49:56 What happened to brucio in the end? 10:50:02 Permanent erasure? 10:50:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-45-52.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:50:52 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:44 Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:53:40 salva: why do you say that? 10:55:29 Zhivago: Cease and desist letter from pg :-) 10:55:30 im trying build and e-shop with weblocks and gbbopen, and go slow 10:56:19 salva: Going slow is not a bad thing, if going fast is likely to make you stumble 10:56:32 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:56:47 maybe my problem is that im learning lisp 10:57:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:58:00 Hard to do without a working ' key. 10:59:11 i was debeloping webs this years in more clasic way, php java, etc and is more easy go from on framework to another 11:00:03 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 11:03:07 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:06:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 11:06:45 i cant find an answer that realy likes for, why isn't lisp the first language in use? it will be? 11:07:12 There are many reasons, and no. 11:08:21 i think that it could be for web 11:09:02 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 11:09:56 in a point betwen a cms and a webframework, with a set of macros, 11:10:36 the funcinality of drupal in a lisp layer with utilities 11:13:16 Lisp will never be the first language in use. 11:13:30 The closest that you'll get is javascript, at least for the next ten years. 11:13:34 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:15:24 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ahlehxllposmmryp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:15:40 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 11:16:16 i think that in web develop will be decided by the framework , weblocks is one of the best 11:16:37 You are insane. 11:16:54 These technologies are determined by network effects to a large extent. 11:17:37 Those network effects mean that an established dominant language, such as C, is very difficult to dethrone. 11:18:02 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has joined #lisp 11:18:23 There are many competing frameworks for web development. The only disruption in the near future looks to be server-side javascript. 11:19:11 That might have a chance in a couple of years of pushing large chunks of python and ruby out, because it significantly reduces the cost of distributing code between server and client. 11:19:59 Zhivago: ability to handle many thousands of connections may become an issue, if comet takes off 11:20:18 Comet is dead, long live websockets. 11:20:32 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:49 But that's also pretty trivial. You can handle 30,000 sockets on one machine without much imagination. 11:20:58 Even a half-arsed scripting language like ruby can do it. 11:21:24 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:21:38 And even if it couldn't, you could write that bit in C without much difficulty. 11:21:51 Death of comet greatly exaggerated, I suspect :) 11:22:16 Nah. Comet is so horrible compared to websockets that as soon as websockets are available it will just go away. 11:22:49 i think that another disruption will be the cost of develop a reusable extension for your web application, and lisp has much to say on that 11:23:13 i feel like going all GWT fanboy in here, but I'll resist 11:23:17 I think javascript has more to say on that :) 11:23:19 Zhivago: IE10 will probably come out in 2013, and will presumably support websockets 11:23:30 Well, gwt is an attempt to do what server-side javascript is doing. 11:23:41 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@user-12ld6f8.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 11:23:42 By 2013, no-one will care what IE is doing. 11:23:45 given normal MS browser rollout times, that means reasonable marketshare by maybe 2015 11:23:49 Zhivago: that's optimistic ;) 11:23:58 Ok, no-one important. :) 11:24:02 revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:24:04 Zhivago: yeah, but I would never want to program in javascript what I can program in java 11:24:17 oliver: That's a valid opinion. 11:24:19 and have compiled to JS optimized for different browsers automatically 11:24:44 though I'm not really experienced enough in JS to think of my opinion as entirely valid 11:25:08 But there are lots of people with sufficient taste to not want to program in java :) 11:25:24 and who wants to be the guy taking Java's side in a language war? :p 11:26:03 Well, I think java has its strong points. 11:26:13 I'd just rather they be inflicted on other people. 11:26:13 well we just need to write a CL->Java compiler and we're done :) 11:26:21 Well, there's abcl. 11:26:49 Ah. I fixed my super-macro delegation problem. :) 11:27:04 running on JVM isn't enough, GWT compiles Java code, not JVM byte code 11:27:09 Now I can write generic macros. 11:27:28 Just compile lisp to javascript. 11:28:20 but then I don't get to leverage (ugh, that word) all the good tools and libraries in the GWT world 11:28:41 anyway i'm gonna see to my labels-needing recursive macro problem now 11:29:32 To be honest I think I'd rather write javascript than java :) 11:30:16 or there's always actionscript (which is a horrifying _combination_) 11:31:38 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 11:32:41 at end i dont like complex interfaces in web aplications, for a e-shop for example, i really likes commonQt for shop administration, and the ajax solution in weblocks i think is good 11:33:52 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.150.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:35:38 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-ce8372d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 11:35:42 ah this has to be possible to do way cleaner if I just learn to use loop 11:35:51 I've seen the magic it can do. Time to get real! 11:36:16 is there an article on it explaining it well, or is CLHS the way to go? 11:37:26 this seems alright http://gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 11:40:25 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 11:44:59 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:45:37 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:46:10 Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:46:39 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:19 ost```` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:49:05 ost````` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:49:13 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 11:49:30 rdd`` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:52:13 -!- ost``` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:52:55 -!- ost```` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:53:10 -!- rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:53:18 -!- rdd`` is now known as rdd 11:55:54 damn, the loop facility is awesome 11:56:46 It has some serious drawbacks, but for some common idioms it can be useful. 11:57:35 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:37 -!- ost````` is now known as ost 12:05:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:41 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-38-3.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:31 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:12:32 mega1_ [~quassel@pool-02cdc.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:12:53 Zhivago: can you give examples of drawbacks? 12:13:31 Inextensible. 12:13:36 Ad hoc :) 12:13:51 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:14:33 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:15:00 heh, sure 12:19:42 don't use in macro expansions 12:20:57 cmm: why? 12:23:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:24:04 my memory as to the source of this particular piece of received wisdom is all rusted over by now, I'm afraid 12:24:14 cmm: :) 12:24:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:24:51 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:25:27 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:27:01 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:27:34 perhaps because LOOP's syntax is defined in terms of symbol names and not symbols themselves, so you may accidentally confuse its parser if your macro expands into a loop invocation where the index name is your-package:for, for instance 12:28:25 cmm: is that still true? I presumed the various elements of LOOP relied on symbols defined in :CL...interesting 12:28:51 everything about ANSI CL is still true, that's the beauty of the thing 12:29:14 *defined in package :COMMON-LISP, that is...as symbols 12:29:16 cmm: One thing is because LOOP-FINISH will silently be hijacked 12:29:18 cmm: LOOP is indeed cares only about symbol names, so it won't be confused 12:30:33 stassats: well, "(loop for for" will probably work, so bad example. I'm sure better examples could be invented by someone sufficiently motivated to do so :) 12:31:17 and I'm not sure 12:31:19 ooh, and what tcr said 12:31:59 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:32:45 why would anyone run loop-finish in the body? 12:33:17 unless you advertise it as a feature 12:33:35 well, a macro without any backquotes in the loop invocation therein is probably safe enough 12:33:41 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-55-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:34:00 You misunderstand. (loop for  do (macro-expanding-to-loop . (when foop (loop-finish)))) 12:34:31 cmm: Another thing is to expand to flet, and call that function. I don't like that way because the local function will probably create a backtrace frame 12:35:33 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-49-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:35:40 tcr: this argument works for any macro that expands to flet, no? 12:35:51 -!- lnostdal-android [~yaaic@77.19.65.138.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:15 Yeah, unless it's so simple that the call will be inlined. 12:36:48 which might be the case for loop, but not in case of special binding or uwp 12:37:50 backtrace-friendliness is probably the last thing I'd worry about with macros. ideally you implementation should make the uglyness go away (but probably none does) 12:39:10 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:45 revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:45:28 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:12 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 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[~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:42 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-21-13.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dbaxfpeszwkynrac] has left #lisp 13:30:34 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:33:25 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.150.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:34:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:36:34 fusp [~khaled@41.201.197.67] has joined #lisp 13:38:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:41:48 re loop and hijacking: hu.dwim.reiterate uses lexical scoping (via cons cell identities), so it's a non-issue there. and of course it supports named loops for explicit control... 13:42:04 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:43:34 So integer-decode-float seems to be permitted to scale the first two return values arbitrarily. 13:44:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:39 I would have expected the exponent returned to always be what is stored in the exponent field of the float minus the bias. 13:46:28 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.130.128] has joined #lisp 13:46:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:47:11 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:44 revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:52:38 jxonas [~chatzilla@201.82.4.152] has joined #lisp 13:54:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:27 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.6/20100721025642]] 13:54:40 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56:13 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:44 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 13:58:02 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:28 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:00:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:00:24 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.172] has joined #lisp 14:02:49 beach: it could depend on whether the float representation has an implicit leading one. 14:03:27 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:03:57 lnostdal-android [~androirc@77.19.65.138.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 14:04:09 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@77.19.65.138.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:31 lnostdal-android [~androirc@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:17 *Krystof* likes conferences: chances to hack in plenary sessions 14:05:37 :D 14:05:38 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:06:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:39 pkhuong_: I don't see anywhere that that is all it depends on. The CLHS seems to allow any scaling between the two return values. In particular, I was surprised by the result for denormalized numbers. 14:11:31 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:39 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:16 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:13:05 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.57.68] has joined #lisp 14:14:04 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.110.10] has joined #lisp 14:14:09 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.110.10] has quit [Changing host] 14:14:09 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:14:45 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 14:14:50 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:15:25 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 14:15:40 'morning 14:15:41 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:16:23 Hello Fade. 14:17:12 pkhuong_: I guess float-precision is what we have to figure that out. 14:17:43 tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has joined #lisp 14:18:15 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-177-199-37.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:31 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:39 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:52 -!- jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-199-196.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:22:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:24:03 LiamH1 [~none@132.250.248.92] has joined #lisp 14:24:17 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:01 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-tngvgxtqexpizwxu] has joined #lisp 14:27:18 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.117.228] has joined #lisp 14:27:18 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.117.228] has quit [Changing host] 14:27:18 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:28:00 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:43 -!- Pholious [4dfb2441@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.251.36.65] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:28:47 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 14:29:35 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:29:46 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:31:13 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 14:31:23 rolando [~user@57.14.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:32:55 Pholious [~Pholious@dhcp-077-251-036-065.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 14:33:03 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:38 Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has joined #lisp 14:35:09 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@muziek172.hku.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:39:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:40:33 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:44:57 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:09 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:50:06 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:20 G'morning all. 14:50:27 Hello nyef. 14:50:33 hi nyef 14:54:10 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:55:58 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:24 Heh. Gmail is now showing me ads for "PPC Keyword Management". 14:58:42 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:03 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 15:01:58 Okay, hopefully non-threaded x86oid builds work as of 1.0.41.44. 15:03:34 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-107-196.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:53 nyef: grats :) 15:06:13 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-129-251.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:00 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:10 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:13:22 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:15:23 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:16:39 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 15:17:54 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:49 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:07 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:32 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128021009.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:21:55 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:11 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:12 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e962.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Quit: [BX] Hey, where's the cream filling?!] 15:22:32 Oh, joy. I'm trying to watch a video from opencourseware on my G5 using mplayer... and it looks like every vertical strip about 8 pixels wide is backwards. 15:23:31 bad interlacing? 15:23:38 Endianness issues. 15:23:39 perhaps they got lazy about endianness as big-endian consumer machines died out :) 15:24:03 The same video looks fine on another machine, but the audio breaks up. 15:24:27 is it some terribly obscure codec? 15:24:47 ... "ffodivx"? 15:24:50 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 15:25:01 Selected video codec: [ffodivx] vfm: ffmpeg (FFmpeg MPEG-4) 15:25:13 ooh, ffmpeg 15:25:32 I hear it's very optimized 15:25:51 Makes it a little hard to read the blackboard when the video is screwed up like this, you know? 15:26:30 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:36 you could try VLC 15:27:10 under a PC emulator, that'd be the safest choice 15:27:16 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:47 Or... I could track down the appropriate place to file a bug. 15:29:01 sounds suspiciously like an endian-related bug to me 15:29:12 these codecs work by splitting things into blocks 15:29:18 generally 8x8 blocks 15:29:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:28 Yeah, exactly. 15:29:37 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:30:08 -!- scode [~scode@94.75.242.212] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:21 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 15:32:15 demise of the PPC mac has made programmers lazy! 15:32:32 time for panic of the day 15:32:38 mega1_: Oh? 15:32:45 Though they were sometimes lazy before; Word for Mac long had a bug where it would mess up on the endian-ness of certain classes of embedded image 15:32:48 how did you know? :-) 15:32:58 the Mac version assumed they were always big-endian, the Windows version always little-endian 15:34:40 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:56 nyef: I think in a number of places we rely on that initializing an object then writing a reference to it to a place can not be observed out of order. 15:35:36 Wouldn't surprise me. 15:35:36 that is, another cpu can not see a half initialized when going through that reference 15:35:37 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:50 *a half initialized object 15:36:02 At the same time, this falls under the "library has not been audited for thread safety" thing. 15:36:07 no 15:36:13 We have -never- guaranteed this. 15:36:26 this falls under sbcl will crash if you allocate a struct 15:36:33 ... What? 15:36:49 Mechanism? 15:36:55 what if the other cpu will not see the widetag? 15:37:01 the lowtag? 15:37:04 (Remembering that stop-for-gc-handler is a memory barrier.) 15:39:31 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:39:37 maybe it's a non-issue becuase the pages used by gc are large and aligned enough to make it impossible that a cpu has what another cpu is initializing in its cache 15:39:50 Looks like vlc is displaying stuff better. I'm willing to chalk up the rest of the visual artifacts to the codec, compression level, and original video size. 15:40:19 *nyef* points out that each thread has its own allocation region as well. 15:40:52 yup 15:42:33 that puts us in the interesting situation that reading a random location in the heap (caching it) can cause a crash 15:43:15 Not really: You're still supposed to use a barrier before you expose things to other threads. 15:43:15 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128021009.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:13 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:28 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-14-245.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:30 nyef: but do we? 15:45:03 Most of the time? Probably not. But for things like hash tables, probably. 15:45:38 Remember that use of compare-and-swap, atomic-incf, spinlocks, and mutexes are all memory barriers. 15:46:15 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:29 I do. But allocating a and writing the reference to a cons needs a barrier by this rationale 15:46:59 Only if it needs to be accessed by another thread. 15:47:54 global bindings, closures, slots 15:48:10 array elements 15:48:35 (closures is really closed over bindings) 15:48:38 beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-14-245.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 Programming with threads is hard, let's worry about interrupt-handling instead. 15:49:28 lol 15:50:32 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:51:09 Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:51:55 (compare-and-swap is not a full memory barrier on all platforms) 15:52:15 Which threaded platforms is compare-and-swap not a full memory barrier on? 15:52:42 (suspense in the air) 15:52:49 (Hint: The only threaded platforms are x86, x86-64, and ppc, and it's definitely a memory barrier on ppc.) 15:53:20 And it uses lock cmpxchg on x86oids, doesn't it? 15:53:41 yes, it does 15:53:53 And that's a memory barrier on x86oids, isn't it? 15:53:57 yes 15:54:15 I meant it in general, not in the context in sbcl. 15:54:40 Fine, fine. 15:54:42 I should not have used "compare-and-swap". 15:55:08 If I can find a truck to move it to the machine room, I have a four processor alphaserver 4000 with four gigs of ram. 15:55:24 Fade: Sweet. 15:55:27 should anybody be interested in continuing this spate of porting work. 15:55:44 Maybe in a month or two? 15:56:00 I'll see if I can get the machine relocated. 15:56:02 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93576.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:10 it weighs about 900lbs 15:56:20 Ouch. 15:56:45 classic DEC overengineering. 15:57:15 is there anything in cl that /tries to/helps with thread programming? 15:57:16 Fade: I'm having trouble pushing more stuff to nyef's todo list, maybe your approach is better. 15:57:39 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-21-13.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:57:51 But having an alpha will surely lead to him fixing my issue as well. 15:57:51 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:55 well, alpha is a kind of ur-architecture. 15:58:01 natch 15:58:17 I mean apart from obvious language features. 15:59:02 mega1_: Actually, unless you have some actual use-cases you can highlight (with failing test cases), I'm not seeing your issue as an issue. 15:59:34 *mega1_* thought he was winning the argument 15:59:46 that's apparently disputed 15:59:55 haha 16:00:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:00:26 I'm not too keen on writing a test case for this. 16:00:33 Wasn't there some mail, possibly from nyef, to follow the linux kernel stuff? 16:00:37 I'm an x86oid man, you know. 16:01:05 udzinari: It's the other way around 16:01:11 yes, but he doesn't trust it enough to use it 16:01:15 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:42 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:01:46 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:48 udzinari: The language does not really cater for parallelism 16:01:49 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-142-214.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:02:02 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-21-109.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:06 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:02:10 A few minutes of failing to persuade someone and I'm turning into a troll already. 16:02:28 You're subtle and have credit to waste :-) 16:02:38 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:03 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:42 Why oh why is integer-decode-float not restricted in terms of scaling between the significand and the exponent? 16:04:52 Intensity [mKYtzqDEJV@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 16:06:27 what do you mean? 16:06:56 It's not restricted to normalized representation? 16:07:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:34 housel: the CLHS seems to allow for any scaling between the significand and the exponent as long as significand * 2^exponent is a rational number representing the exact value of the float. 16:08:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08:31 so you would restrict it to be the smallest integer that has all of the significant bits? 16:08:55 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:33 Sounds true. In particular, I would have wanted the exponent to remain constant for denormalized numbers. 16:10:10 Not so much for the purpose of programming, but proving that what I do is correct is a pain in the neck. 16:10:51 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:12:13 I need to prove that if you take s and e as the result of calling integer-decode-float on some x, then integer-decode-float *might* have return (s + k) and e on the successor of x, where k is 2(d - p) where d is the number of digits of x (as returned by float-digits) and p is the precision (as returned by float-precison). And that works if x is denormalized as well. 16:12:32 Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:13:26 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:47 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-35-82-250-203-180.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 beach: To further mess up things, look at what integer-decode-float returns for 0.0. 16:15:03 rtoym: That is definitely allowed. 16:15:53 -!- Pholious [~Pholious@dhcp-077-251-036-065.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:16:10 rtoym: As long as s * 2^e is an accurate representation of the float in question, it's fine. 16:17:08 Sure. But *I* was surprised to find out that cmucl return an exponent of -1075. 16:17:18 returns 16:17:28 nyef: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-checked_locking has a relevant section, search for "broken" 16:17:30 rtoym: Oh, that's perfectly logical. 16:18:13 rtoym: That's the exponent bias of a double-precision IEEE float when you return the mantissa as an integer. 16:18:21 Heh. ccl returns -1074. 16:18:25 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:31 wubo`` [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:47 And ecl and acl return 0. 16:18:50 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:19:32 You mean bias and 53. The bias is 1023, right? 16:20:14 rtoym: The bias is 1023 only if you consider the mantissa to be a number between 1 and 2. 16:20:25 morning 16:20:26 -!- wubo` [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:20:29 Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:20:29 hello slyrus 16:20:58 rtoym: If you consider the mantissa to be an integer, the bias becomes 1075 (or so). 16:20:59 I'm sure there must be many, but does anyone know of a library like http://github.com/joshua-choi/fnparse for CL? 16:21:01 beach: Hmm. Ok. I need to dig up the IEEE754 spec to look at again, then. 16:21:36 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:37 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:22:04 rtoym: The thing is that the representation is unique, but what each of the mantissa field and exponent field represents is ambiguous. Hence decode-float and integer-decode float. 16:22:12 Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:22:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:23:49 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:46 rtoym: What I have read in the past considers the mantissa to represent a number between 0.5 and 1, and the first digit is always 1, so not represented. This is also what decode-float does. Wikipedia considers the mantiassa to represent a number between 1 and 2, so they are 1 off on the exponent. Burger and Dybvig consider the mantissa to represent an integer, so their exponent is off by 52, and integer-decode-float can do whatev 16:24:46 it wants, including different things between two calls. 16:26:24 I'm pretty sure the IEEE754 spec says 1 <= mantissa < 2. 16:26:28 IIRC IEEE has the mantissa in [1.0, 2.0) definition, C and CL use [0.5, 1) 16:26:51 rtoym: The thing is it doesn't matter, and IEEE has no business standardazing how we think about it. 16:27:27 josemanuel [~josemanue@176.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:27:35 GODDAMMIT! All that matters is the float that is represented by the fields in the machine word, not how we think about them. 16:28:37 I'm pretty sure there's a reason the mantissa is between 1 and 2 and not 1/2 and 1. But I don't remember what that is. 16:28:40 [sorry, lost my calm there for a sec] 16:28:41 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:29:05 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:29:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:29:16 rtoym: I can assure you that there is no such reason, because it it is only a matter of how we interpret what is stored. 16:29:23 "God gave us the integers, all else is the work of man." 16:29:28 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:29:31 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:29:31 yeah, yeah. 16:29:35 Perhaps losing a bit of precision, or a bit in exponent range. 16:29:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:29:54 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:30:05 rtoym: I can assure you that there is no difference in precision, because it is only a matter of how we interpret what is stored. 16:30:31 It might matter if you're doing it in hardware. 16:30:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:31:12 rtoym: I can assure you that it would be done the same way in hardware, because it would be stored the same way, and the only difference is how we in our heads interpret what is stored. 16:31:15 But, yes, I agree you can interpret the bits in any way you want as long as it's consistent with the final value. 16:34:20 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-154.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:53 And I think IEEE does have something to say. Without that, we might still be dealing with Cray style numbers of DEC G format (or whatever that was called) or IBM base 16 floats. 16:35:06 s/of DEC/or DEC/ 16:36:33 rtoym: I will give them credit for, and I will grant them the right to tell us how to represent a particular number in the computer, but I won't let them control how I think about it, if it doesn't matter to how it is stored, how the computations are done, or anything else except how I think about it. 16:36:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-107-196.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:37:04 rtoym: Are you saying integer-decode-float is a violation of the IEEE standard? 16:37:18 Fair enough. Except for the computation part. The spec is pretty clear on that too. 16:37:50 *whew* 16:37:52 Nope. integer-decode-float and decode-float are perfectly fine. I just wish it were IEEE style. :-) 16:40:15 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-55-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:40:25 rtoym: It is interesting that the first time I read about it (must have been som computer-architecture book), they used 0.5 - 1, and then I read the Burger-Dybvig paper who just used integers without any explanation, and that's how I started understanding that that aspect is just in our heads. Then today I read the Wikipedia article that assumed 1 - 2, which I hadn't expected. 16:40:27 Well, just for consistency with IEEE. But I actually prefer 0.5 to 1 instead of 1 to 2, because it seems to work out nicer. 16:40:50 rtoym: It works out exactly the same, because it is only in our heads. 16:41:10 rtoym: The computations are all the same. 16:41:39 Yes, of course. But it's a pain to read the spec and then do CL because everything is off by one (or more). 16:41:46 IEEE spec 16:42:08 rtoym: Because the only thing that counts for computation is what the representation stands for, and it should not depend on how we think about it in our heads. 16:42:46 rtoym: The number represented is always s * 2^e no matter how we think about it. 16:44:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:44:37 Except for denormals where the actual bits are weird. The implied one bit goes away. Or something like that. 16:45:32 good morning all 16:45:39 hello jhalogen 16:45:50 hi beach! 16:46:10 i have a technology company i am hiring for on a project basis 16:46:19 we are committed to common lisp 16:46:34 please check out http://symbolicspace.com/hiring.html 16:46:42 if you are available to work 16:46:44 jhalogen: Send a note to lispjobs.wordpress.com too. 16:46:46 rtoym: It is definitely weird, but it is only in my head, for SBCL to still return 53 for a denormalized number, and then modify the exponent accordingly, but it is allowed, the result is the same, and the difference is only in my head. 16:46:54 xach: will do 16:47:43 jhalogen: FYI, there is something on that page that requires authentication. My browser prompts for a password after displaying almost everything. 16:47:49 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 xach: are you using chrome? 16:48:16 jhalogen: Me? No, but I have a couple 100 students that might be. If you could email me an offer, I'll post it to their newsgroup. 16:48:24 jhalogen: Yes. 16:48:29 beach: that was to the group, thanks 16:48:44 jhalogen: ? 16:48:46 xach: yes, hunchentoot's http auth doesn't play nuce with chrome for some reason 16:49:04 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:09 -nice 16:49:15 beach: But I think it works out better if you can then just (scale-float (float mantissa) expo). 16:49:20 jhalogen: I don't think you have access to masterinfo.officiel on the servers of the university of Bordeaux. 16:49:40 rtoym: You should be able to do that anyway. 16:49:50 beach: i meant the offer was to #lisp, not just you :) 16:50:14 jhalogen: beach is in "confused old man" mode. 16:50:15 jhalogen: Please email me something more than a url to strandh at labri dot fr 16:50:24 beach: thank you, will do 16:50:33 beach: Yeah, I guess so. The mantissa is smaller and the exponent is larger (less negative). 16:50:50 rtoym: That's what I have been trying to say all along. 16:50:52 How can I convert an integer to bit-vector? 16:50:58 rtoym: It is only in our heads. 16:51:06 peterhil: there are many ways. why might you want to do that, though? 16:51:13 beach: Yes. 16:51:13 xach: if you cancel the auth it will work, this only happens in chrome. it's hunchentoot behine nginx 16:51:31 jhalogen: I also use hunchentoot behind nginx, but I don't think I've run into that issue yet. 16:51:33 I want to calculate elias codes 16:51:57 peterhil: I don't know what that is, but how does a bit vector make it easier? 16:52:22 xach: it's my fault, i'm using a cheap http auth macro in my templates 16:52:26 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:53:15 I just need to fiddle with bits. 16:53:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_gamma_coding 16:54:16 Especially ones with exact number of zeros prepending them. 16:54:35 So, no integers won't do. 16:55:08 peterhil: I've done this gross thing before: (read-from-string (format nil "#b~A" integer)). Assuming the bit vector order and integer order are correct. 16:55:57 Oops. That's "#*~b" 16:57:04 rtoym: Thanks, that will do well for testing out an idea. 16:57:39 Xach: I can make a LUT or whatever when need be, but right now I just need to fiddle with individual bits. 16:57:43 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:34 peterhil: that's pretty easy to do with an integer directly 16:58:41 with logtest, logbitp, etc 16:58:50 logcount...all that fun stuff. 17:01:26 *rtoym* eventually ended up using logbitp because the bit vector wanted to be in LSB order. 17:04:44 Ok, good. I was just reading the doc about those. 17:04:59 beach: Why to you need to prove that? And don't you mean s shifted by k, not s + k? 17:05:03 Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 peterhil: how are you storing the encoded forms? 17:10:26 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 17:10:42 writing them out to a stream or something? 17:10:59 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 17:11:01 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-21-212.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:11:39 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 aeouhtns [c9062e32@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.6.46.50] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-tngvgxtqexpizwxu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:10 -!- aeouhtns [c9062e32@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.6.46.50] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:35 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:36 I eventually write them out to a stream. 17:18:12 But actually using integers is a much better idea, because I still need to compare and perform arithmetics with them. 17:18:58 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@pool-02cdc.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:19:38 newlisper [~newlisper@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 seems like logcount would be quite handy there 17:21:18 Hi! Exploring CLOS a bit and had a question about the CL standard: although (according to some histories I read) CLOS was based on stuff that included mixins (MIT Flavours), why was the mixin feature not made convenient? I know we can implement mixins/roles/aspects/traits with MOP instructions, but a defclass with a ":does" would have been nice. What was the controversy? 17:21:34 Xach: I thought so too, but it's the number of bits written, not the number of 1 bits. 17:21:49 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:22:01 rtoym: oh, oops. integer-length, then. 17:22:11 newlisper: the answer to that question would probably require you go spelunking in google groups. 17:22:14 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440781.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 17:22:43 I guess you could email kent pitman or guy steele. 17:22:46 or maybe not. /me doesn't quite understand the article. 17:22:56 newlisper: Um, they look pretty convenient to me. 17:22:58 newlisper: you just inherit from the mixin class. what's inconvenient about that? 17:23:07 newlisper: What precisely is the inconveniene? 17:23:12 I first use the elias codes to determine dyadic intervals. 17:23:38 Now, if you were asking "why does CL use C3 linearization ...." 17:23:47 er, doesn't. 17:23:57 Ah, yes. integer-length should do the trick. 17:24:11 Xach: Why not integer-length? It looks like you prepend the integer with N zeroes, where N is 1 less than the number of bits. 17:27:38 newlisper: are you a new lisper or a newLisper? 17:27:56 I'll look into the suggestions. I am currently tainted by Perl Moose's take on roles, so I will want to figure out how to exclude/resolve specific functions from a class that I consume. 17:28:07 Do I want to know what "C3 linearization" is? 17:28:14 nyef: Sure. 17:28:26 Aren't mixins usually done by creating a mixin class and adding that to the class hierarchy? 17:28:28 nyef: It makes superclass lists consistent. 17:28:53 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:29:04 Ah. Neat. 17:29:13 Xach: new Lisper... until I actually complete my first large project :) Then I'll be lessnewLisper 17:29:22 Yeah, why doesn't CL use C3 linearization? 17:29:38 And, of course, the reason that CLOS doesn't specify this is... it was new in '96, and the spec was finalized in '94? 17:29:39 rtoym: because it was invented after CL was standardized 17:29:47 Before its time and too frozen to evolve. 17:30:02 That's a good reason. 17:31:47 Pholious [~Pholious@dhcp-077-251-036-065.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:31:47 rtoym: Are you going to ILC2010? (sorry if I've asked you already) 17:32:17 Xach: Very unlikely. 17:32:49 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2C802.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:27 danlei [~user@pD9E2C802.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:53 -!- newlisper [~newlisper@128.252.233.244] has quit [Quit: Thanks! That helped!] 17:34:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.86.57.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:21 C3 is frustrating because CLOS' linearization was || this close to just happening upon C3. 17:37:30 clhs 4.3.5.1 17:37:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cea.htm 17:37:53 third paragraph: I _think_ if this had said 'leftmost' instead of 'rightmost', CLOS would've been using C3. 17:38:50 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 17:39:36 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:39:43 ok here's the lispjobs posting 17:39:45 http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2010/08/11/lisp-projects-symbolic-space-ny-and-la/ 17:39:51 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.241.219] has joined #lisp 17:40:50 *rtoym* has Lisp experience, but none of the others. Sniff. 17:41:22 rtoym: send me something anyway 17:42:44 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 17:43:07 what? and lose 27 years seniority at ericsson? 17:44:26 but i offer free fruit smoothies on tuesdays! 17:47:10 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@sf-ogame.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:30 all joking aside 17:47:37 Eek. Extra fructose?! 17:48:03 nyef: indeed, and spirulina 17:48:14 Ugh. 17:48:20 ok, now really all joking aside 17:48:29 i'm not really looking for "employees" 17:48:34 people looking for side work is best 17:48:45 i believe in co-autonomy 17:48:52 it has worked well thus far 17:49:34 Hrm. I've got the implementation-hacking background, but haven't seriously tried using C++ since before templates... And didn't like it then, and like it less now. 17:50:07 yes, c++ has wronged me as well. 17:50:29 but Qt has become a world-class project in my opinion. 17:51:11 i barely consider Qt C++ these days. 17:51:28 and once we get a Common Lisp in there 17:51:45 we can leverage the libs and right everything in lisp 17:51:50 right=write 17:52:11 yes, i know about common qt and cl-smoke 17:52:40 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0507.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:52:40 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0507.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 17:52:40 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 17:53:09 why not use them? 17:53:12 So, how about using ECL? 17:53:54 there is an ecl embedded in qt right now, a Swiss gentleman in Tuscany's project 17:54:01 very promising 17:54:40 sykopomp: i need to deliver cross-platform binaries with extremely good graphics performance 17:54:54 so my strategy is get a repl in a Qt app 17:54:56 Xach & rtoym: integer-length works wonders. I dont't need to even calculate a logarithm. 17:55:08 may be insane, but... 17:55:34 the problem with eclqt is no clos 17:55:38 jhalogen: you forgot to work "enterprise" into your speach. rectify immediately k tnx 17:55:51 peterhil: CL is pretty sweet! 17:56:20 cmm-: we are monetizing our synergies 17:56:26 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-117.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:56:36 Xach: Sure is... I won't be looking back to Ruby and Python unless I have to. 17:56:36 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: Rebooting: 13:56:21 up 201 days, 20:41 (D:)] 17:57:18 cmm-: and leveraging our human capital for enterprise. 17:57:23 cmm-: better? 17:57:29 scrums! 17:57:35 agile! 17:57:35 etc 17:57:57 (A friend works for IBM; they don't really speak the same language there) 17:58:12 i think it's SCRUM 17:58:31 that sounds right out of hitchhiker's guide 17:58:38 yeah it's kind of funny 17:58:52 please don't feed the dolphins SCRUM 17:59:15 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:00:19 antifuchs: cxml-rpc repo down? 18:01:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-213-194.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:07 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-240-213-194.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:01:07 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 18:01:57 rmarynch [~roman@bras-4-ge-62.122.200.230.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 18:02:06 Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 I was recently shown an amazing self-description with the words synergy, enterprise and so on scattered throughout. I assumed it was a hilarious IBM-er parody. It turned out to be from the linkedin page of an IBM technical lead :S 18:02:27 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:02:51 rsynnott: heavens help us 18:03:12 hopefully few lispers are caught in such lunacy 18:03:26 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 18:04:26 lnostdal: did you move/kill all your repos? 18:04:36 rsynnott: thank you for your hunchentoot tutorial a few years back, that was helpful 18:04:47 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 18:05:00 fairly sure it's hopelessly out-of-date now :) 18:05:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:05:27 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:28 probably 18:05:30 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:54 there was a good hunchentoot lispcast too. someone named eric. what happened to that? 18:05:54 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:05 yes, gitorious had trouble with case sensitivity, Xach .. and github has more cool features anyway 18:11:22 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:54 samo [~samo@88.200.108.138] has joined #lisp 18:19:24 -!- fusp [~khaled@41.201.197.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:21:06 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-64.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:23:58 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:49 fusp [~khaled@41.201.197.107] has joined #lisp 18:26:36 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.77] has joined #lisp 18:27:37 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:28:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:31 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:35 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@12.237.68.16] has joined #lisp 18:31:51 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C069.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 18:36:12 ... Is that permissible to skip CL functions inlining by the compiler when caller or callee is an anonymous function, and the non-anonymous function is declared inline? 18:37:08 rmarynch: (declare (notinline ...))? 18:37:19 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:37:36 no, I mean our IR1 frontend. Could it skip such cases? 18:37:55 Doesn't it do so under certain policy settings? 18:38:05 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:38:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:38:52 Please look at the bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/515603, which I am fixing now 18:39:26 there is a problem: detect the recursion, and skip the inlining of recursive function 18:40:26 the simple idea is to compare leaf-%source-name for caller and callee 18:40:27 Ah, right. So, this is more a case of wanting to recognize self-calls of inlined functions, isn't it? 18:40:35 yes 18:41:14 Isn't there already some machinery for recognizing self-calls? 18:41:19 but for recursive call in that example, %leaf-source name of the caller is sb-c::.anonymous 18:41:31 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:42:21 it seems that no. The basic idea is to see whether two nodes (caller and callee) are in the same IR1 functional 18:43:13 but these IR1 functionals are different even in case of recursion! 18:43:45 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 18:44:09 -!- samo [~samo@88.200.108.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:10 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:19 but one of them is always anonymous (the one which was generated by IR1 on the fly). So, by prohibiting the anonymous-case inlining, we can fix the bug. 'Normal' (non-recursive) inlining still works in this case (I have checked on simple example) 18:48:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 Does anything actually dispatch on sb-c::.anonymous, and if not what about using a gensym? 18:48:45 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:09 how gensym can help here? 18:49:22 Provides a unique name for each anonymous? 18:49:44 Umm... Might have to associate said name to the inlined anonymous function. 18:49:56 What about converting anonymous lambdas to named-lambdas? 18:50:16 the recursive inlining is a recursive process, all that anonymous are in fact different objects 18:50:27 and they eat memory :) 18:50:34 Wait, what? 18:50:50 But aren't they from the same set of underlying functions? 18:51:44 no, they cannot be compared easily. Their inner variables are different, thanks to gensym 18:52:14 you mean that they all start in one root? 18:52:18 Yeah, sortof. 18:52:41 no, the inline is literal - nodes are merged into the caller's body 18:53:13 Umm... These are coming from a transform that supplies a full lambda form, aren't they? Can you convert that to use named-lambda to obtain a usable name? 18:54:27 Well, sb-c::.anonymous _is_ that name, it is quite usable (to EQ, etc). The problem is whether we should drop anonymous inlining or not 18:54:51 I really don't know at this point. 18:55:06 Do you know what the consequences of doing so would be? 18:55:33 in case a caller is anonymous, the full call will happen 18:55:42 nothing dangerous 18:55:57 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 18:56:15 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 18:56:16 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 18:56:18 delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:56:29 now, we have the inlining depth hardcoded to be 200, just to catch such cases. But this is a bit ugly 18:56:44 Yes, but how would that affect performance of correct code that isn't presently affected by this problem? 18:57:51 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid 18:57:52 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 18:57:52 delYsid [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 it is hard to say. A test is needed. Performance will not improve, this is for sure 18:58:27 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:40 well, maybe I will provide the initial patch and drop a mail to sbcl-devel. Let us see what other people thing 18:58:56 think* 18:59:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-251-202.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:59:54 nyef: thank you for your participation in the brainstorming :) 19:00:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 19:00:28 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:19 No problem. 19:01:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:05:35 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:58 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@176.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:10:38 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@12.237.68.16] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 19:11:08 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:29 cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has joined #lisp 19:12:45 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:13:02 -!- cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has left #lisp 19:13:35 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:14:32 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:15:55 -!- navigator [~navigator@p548973E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:15:56 aha! 19:16:08 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:09 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:16:09 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:17:31 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 19:17:47 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-64.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 19:18:19 Xach: "aha"? 19:19:35 nyef: just found the cause of an odd problem. 19:19:51 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:21:02 nyef: one system file defining two different systems for a single source file. one system builds a fasl that references fiveam (via *features* and reader conditionals), and records that dependency in a :depends-on. the other system doesn't. but if you build the former first, it doesn't rebuild the fasl if you later (in a different session, without fiveam) try to load the latter. 19:22:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:22:54 so it loads the fasl and promptly croaks on a "package not found" 19:23:18 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:36 Ah. 19:23:48 Almost too clever for its own good? 19:24:20 possibly 19:25:12 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host37-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:48 probably the author didn't imagine my build strategy, which is no crime 19:27:42 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-64.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:33:39 -!- benny [~user@i577A86EA.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:05 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-4-ge-62.122.200.230.utm.if.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:38:24 -!- ski [~slj@c-e812e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:39:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:40:05 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:26 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:29 hi, i'd like see a mini lisp implementation in c++ or java, for learn how implement a lisp, some link? thanks 19:41:56 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:03 -!- TomJ- [~tomj@78.148.49.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:13 Salamander: lisp500 19:42:20 whoops, intended for salva 19:42:33 benny [~user@i577A145E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:37 Krystof: thanks 19:45:39 TomJ [~tomj@78.148.49.136] has joined #lisp 19:47:02 Xach: the official cxml-rpc repo moved to github.com/antifuchs/cxml-rpc 19:47:11 hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:48:06 antifuchs: phew. i can't live if living is without cxml-rpc. 19:48:18 haha 19:50:28 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:31 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:21 heh 19:54:48 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:56:23 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:56:31 francogrex [~user@109.130.155.195] has joined #lisp 19:57:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:58:03 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:58:48 hi all, those of you who use cvs to get the latest of ECl do you need to enter a password? 19:59:59 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-94.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:27 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@12.237.68.16] has joined #lisp 20:01:27 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@12.237.68.16] has quit [Client Quit] 20:03:10 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-94.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:27 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:20 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-94.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:04:27 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.155.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:44 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-94.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:49 -!- rolando [~user@57.14.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:05:03 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:06:23 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:37 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:10:33 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93576.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:12:20 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has joined #lisp 20:17:55 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 20:19:14 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@12.237.68.16] has joined #lisp 20:21:57 rolando [~user@164.96.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:22:39 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:24:29 -!- hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 20:30:10 -!- fusp [~khaled@41.201.197.107] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:31:07 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:32:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:33:33 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:41:52 timor [~timor@port-92-195-19-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:42 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:45:55 -!- jxonas [~chatzilla@201.82.4.152] has left #lisp 20:46:49 francogrex: I didn't the last time I checked out ecl. But I'm too late in answering. 20:49:25 Isn't the anoncvs password typically "anonymous" or something silly, if it even asks for one? 20:50:41 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e962.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:52:37 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:50 Something like that. It's been a while. 20:53:29 -!- Pholious [~Pholious@dhcp-077-251-036-065.chello.nl] has quit [] 20:53:31 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.168] has joined #lisp 20:59:31 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:10 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 21:02:11 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:47 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 21:12:47 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:14:17 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:14:17 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:14:17 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:14:42 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:53 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-82.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:08 Krystof_ [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 21:17:36 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:46 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440781.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:18:21 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:18:28 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:59 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:21:58 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:32 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:52 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:05 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 21:33:49 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:35:10 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:19 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d816332.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 hiho 21:37:35 I just wanted to ask, is gcl any good? 21:37:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:52 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:38:32 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:38:49 probably not 21:39:10 Well, I think gcl is ok. 21:39:21 It has a less-than-stellar reputation. 21:39:24 well, i didnt saw that anyone is using gcl 21:39:59 You might be better off with ecl, cmucl, ccl, or sbcl. 21:40:00 Plus, there's been some recent activity for an imminent 2.6.8 release. Sounds gcl will be much better than it was. 21:40:01 (Or, you might not.) 21:40:34 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:40:36 FWIW, the primary Lisp for maxima is still gcl. 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joined #lisp 22:09:58 lnostdal-android [~androirc@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:05 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:11:40 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 22:11:41 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:12:40 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:14:26 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:04 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15:35 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:15:37 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:47 urandom_ [~user@p548A6823.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:25 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:31 err 22:17:35 sorry 22:17:40 anyone awake ? 22:18:59 efnx [~schell@cpe-76-174-254-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:52 Krystof [~csr21@84.246.5.106] has joined #lisp 22:20:57 http://paste.lisp.org/+2FIN 22:24:26 homie: looks like you have an odd non-whitespace blank character in there 22:24:30 homie: maybe an  ? 22:24:55 the | #| is the giveaway. 22:25:02 that ain't right. 22:25:03 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:25:30 right, but i don't have any   there or anywhere 22:25:37 the same code works just fine with sbcl 22:25:41 2.48 22:25:52 err i mean clisp 22:26:10 and my sbcl version is 1.0.40.0 debian 22:26:23 homie: can you try to reproduce it by manually typing the code? 22:26:29 and i started it even with --no-userinit --no-siteinit 22:26:31 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 22:26:39 wait 22:26:42 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:46 i have to type that in at the repl 22:26:50 homie: shows no problem on (non-debian) sbcl 1.0.40 here 22:26:57 heh 22:27:19 there's something wrong here but i don't know exactly what 22:29:33 ldunn [~user@d110-32-144-145.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:29:39 -!- LiamH [~none@132.250.248.92] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:54 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:32 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:36 http://paste.lisp.org/+2FIO 22:32:42 ok it works by hand 22:33:21 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-19-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:19 homie: you had something in there. 22:34:46 yes but i don't know wher it comes from 22:35:09 pasting it should not do anything 22:35:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:35:21 and pasting to clisp works but not sbcl ?? 22:35:50 and i have another problem with cl-octave 22:36:08 some unicode code points are not recognized or are not convertible 22:36:13 so the package does not load 22:40:32 http://paste.lisp.org/+2FIP 22:40:54 loading it from an asdf package i did has got the same problems or some resembling ones 22:42:07 -!- rolando [~user@164.96.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:45:23 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:47:22 homie: a hexdump or hexl-mode will show you what the characters are 22:49:15 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 22:49:20 Hexdump is one of the basic tools that I end up writing for just about every environment I use. 22:49:37 Or I use someone else's hexdump, but it's still a basic tool. 22:50:06 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:14 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:51:31 abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has joined #lisp 22:51:59 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:53:49 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:57:10 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:05:05 Xach: ok i have it opened with my hexl-mode now, but i can't figure out what is what, never used hexl before 23:06:21 http://paste.lisp.org/+2FIR this is the output of the hexl mode 23:06:40 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:07:06 by the way, i copied my my-defs asdf package to the system comon-lisp folder to test it with clisp, and clisp works without any foss with it 23:07:14 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:07:28 i mean loading it with asdf works even with clisp 23:07:56 could it be something system specific rather ? 23:08:08 homie: exactly what i said it was. 23:08:28 homie: you have non-breaking spaces in there. 23:08:33 ok then maybe i should reinstall my sbcl 23:08:41 homie: maybe you should fix the source code file. 23:08:43 perhaps that will fix it ? 23:08:48 hrmmm 23:08:51 convert non-breaking spaces to actual spaces. 23:08:55 ok 23:09:14 see the 09 09 09 c2 a0 stuff? 23:09:28 09 is tabs, c2 a0 is encoded non-breaking space 23:09:40 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-144-201.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:09:54 you want 20 20 20, actual spaces 23:10:08 homie: did you create that file? 23:10:18 oww 23:11:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:21 i yes, i wrote it just in an emacs buffer and copied the center functions code from gmane cl-faq mailing-list just to test 23:12:47 there you go 23:12:51 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:37 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 23:13:56 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 23:14:13 *Xach* happy to help 23:18:50 -!- efnx [~schell@cpe-76-174-254-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: efnx] 23:20:00 heh, just reindenting the whole file did the trick somehow 23:34:52 emacs-dwim [~user@pool-173-70-179-110.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:05 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:22 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:11 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:35 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:39 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:40:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:41:15 s/cl-faw/cl-quiz/ oh my 23:41:25 s/cl-faq/cl-quiz 23:41:27 gah 23:41:56 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.116] has joined #lisp 23:42:54 well 23:43:12 the clisp prints it better than sbcl however 23:44:11 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:15 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 23:44:19 -!- macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has quit [Client Quit] 23:44:32 http://paste.lisp.org/+2FIS 23:45:50 homie: (progn (terpri) (my-defs:center "This" "is" "et cetera")). 23:46:50 macrolet [macrolet@unaffiliated/macrolet] has joined #lisp 23:47:09 (Someone actually filed a bug about that behavior once. Dunno what happened with it, but it was because the line-position thing was getting thrown off by the "* " that is the input prompt.) 23:47:51 so it is an actual bug ? 23:47:52 oh 23:47:56 eh 23:50:53 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A46F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:54:25 zekriad [~zekriad@173.218.58.185] has joined #lisp 23:55:11 -!- zekriad [~zekriad@173.218.58.185] has quit [Client Quit] 23:57:44 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.56] has joined #lisp