00:08:50 -!- ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:16:48 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:17:07 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:24:15 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-48-171-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:26:08 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-48-171-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:21 necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:23 necroforest_ [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:58 -!- necroforest_ [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:23 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:36:36 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:52 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:36:53 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:19 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.212] has joined #lisp 00:40:32 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:56 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:06 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:12 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:55 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:25 drewc: new version of the stm at . It grew quite a bit (~650 LOC) to provide extensibility :\ 00:59:28 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-52-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:01:09 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-66-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:02:19 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.148.4] has joined #lisp 01:03:10 hmm... can you call INITIALIZE-INSTANCE on an existing object to 'reset' it, while maintaining identity? 01:03:25 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:03:32 I'm guessing as much, but I might be missing something here. 01:04:58 <_3b`> clhs reinitialize-instance 01:04:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reinit.htm 01:05:11 *_3b`* would guess that ^ 01:05:24 _3b`: reinitialize-instance doesn't have the defaulted initargs. 01:05:45 the intent here is for default-initargs and initforms to be executed. 01:05:56 <_3b`> ah, dunno then 01:06:16 well, slots have them 01:06:24 slot definitions 01:07:00 symbole [~symbole@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:21 ephcon_ [~ephcon@cpe-72-227-143-54.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:37 -!- seg_ [~seg@adsl-99-36-231-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:07:58 stassats`: right, but I'm wondering if a simple call to initialize-instance will restore the object to its 'initial' state. 01:08:10 I'm not sure, for example, if it actually reruns initforms if the slots are already bound... 01:08:20 if you call it with the right initargs 01:09:07 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw344124.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:11 necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:58 -!- ephcon_ [~ephcon@cpe-72-227-143-54.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:27:01 sykopomp: It seems that if share-initialization gets called with t you get all slots initialised with initforms 01:27:25 shared-initialize* 01:27:47 all unbond slots? 01:28:09 only unbound slots, yeah... 01:28:21 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D13B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:29:46 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 01:31:49 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:24 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:36:59 -!- mlfnav [~mlfnv@cpe-70-113-207-193.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:18 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-155-227.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:40:00 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:49 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:39 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:34 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:16 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:08 _8david [~user@port-92-195-103-179.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:50:07 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-14-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:00:11 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:03 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:05:13 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:05:27 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:12:04 JesterSks [~user@pool-72-66-104-166.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:59 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:49 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:23:36 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A5B1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:19 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:34:45 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:39:52 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.239] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:40:46 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.148.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:42:18 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:29 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-82-223.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:50:41 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:21 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-185-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:14 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 02:55:14 ldunn [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 02:55:58 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-82-223.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:47 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:58:12 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-82-223.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:59:05 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:07 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-82-223.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:07 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:02:26 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:02:34 hi lisp, seeing as lisp is the language that is the king of the hill--- my question is this. 03:02:56 FreeNode seems like a nice little IRC community for OS/dev/programming 03:03:21 chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has joined #lisp 03:03:30 but there's got to be something a little more exclusive and better--I just dont know where 03:04:49 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:05:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:06:21 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:58 ][V][ICHAEL [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:11 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:07:46 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:07:59 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:33 Has anyone had any trouble starting slime and getting "Error opening /dev/tty: No such device or address"? 03:12:59 are you dropping into ldb? 03:13:02 yes 03:13:16 are you using the wrong core? 03:13:30 That's probably it. Thanks! 03:14:09 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:18 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 03:15:52 sabalaba: Lisp communities already have way too many problems with being "exclusive" 03:19:09 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-52-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:19:57 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-52-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:20:44 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.196.111] has joined #lisp 03:24:33 -!- ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:25:37 p_l, I'm just wondering if there is a more exclusive hacker IRC-- 'hacker' in the classical sense 03:26:55 -!- chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:27:21 sabalaba: hang out long enough, and you will see enough insane ideas here to write a new HAKMEM full of tricks. This channel often doubles as #sbcl, as they call it, since lots of SBCL developers are here. 03:28:10 I asked this morning, and maybe I'll have more luck now, but has anyone used the cffi files that comes with gpgme? 03:28:52 by that time you could have written your own bindings 03:29:18 Except I can't even get it to work in C, le sigh. 03:29:32 I think the naming of gpgme was ironic. 03:29:52 p_l, thanks 03:30:10 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.212] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:30:26 Funny.. I just had Hacker's Delight in my hand before switching to this channel 03:31:12 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:31:17 Real hackers don't use IRC anyway.. if they did they'd have a daemon which they'd send an email to in order to speak 03:31:57 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:14 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:30 Real hackers live in a mushroom palace on the floor of the ocean and use dinosaurs for crockery. 03:33:42 sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@219.237.160.212] has joined #lisp 03:34:19 Backquote - I noticed it's reader-macro that expands to something implementation-specific. In use cases where it's used such that a call to list would be equivalent, should it be assumed to be equivalent? 03:34:41 Just wondering how much of backquote's "under the hood" behavior is standardized or can be expected to be. 03:35:03 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #lisp 03:35:15 What are CLISP's `weak {and,or} {relations,mappings}' good for? 03:35:43 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Cheshire Cat: I'm not all here myself...] 03:35:46 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 03:36:23 clhs ` 03:36:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 03:36:25 modius: The only under the hood stuff is "how much does it decide to reuse from the template?" 03:37:53 -!- sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@219.237.160.212] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:11 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:38:33 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:43 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 03:39:44 hi 03:39:58 is () a valid expression in common lisp o quoting is nessesary? 03:40:17 () is nil, according to Slime. 03:40:24 It is valid, afaik 03:40:26 I dunno if this is defined by the standard, but in SBCL it evaluates to nil 03:40:30 And nil evaluates to nil. 03:40:34 ok 03:40:39 i meant whether it standard 03:40:43 'nil also evaluates to nil. 03:40:49 sure 03:40:51 So use whatever makes you feel happier. 03:40:58 heh 03:41:00 ok 03:41:08 and '() 03:41:18 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_9.htm#OPCP 03:41:31 thanks 03:41:41 (eq 'nil ''nil) => nil 03:41:44 I did not know that. 03:42:03 Personally if I have '(a b) and '(a), then I think that '() is appropriate. 03:42:29 hmm, true 03:42:29 bork: What does ''nil evaluate to? 03:42:47 Zhivago: 'nil 03:42:54 Zhivago: If you again evaluate that, you get nil 03:42:56 herbie: I didn't ask you. 03:43:07 Zhivago: Oh, that was an instructional question 03:44:59 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: out] 03:45:42 The gist seems to be that quotes are nestable. Wonder if there's an good use for that... 03:46:23 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:46:23 herbieB: I don't think there is actually a Lisp-related question that Zhivago doesn't already know the answer to 03:46:42 ' is a reader macro 03:46:52 'foo is read as (quote foo) 03:47:01 Makoryu: Ha, that's probably true upon reflection, but alas my memory for names is shit 03:47:03 borkamaniac: ' is just a reader macro that transforms to (QUOTE ...) 03:47:04 nested quoting is usefull sometimes, in macros foe example 03:47:06 :p 03:47:15 `(... ',something ...) 03:47:25 also in nested `` 03:47:38 `(... `(... ','(...)...)...) 03:48:00 i don't remember how it was but one time I saw a `,', don't remember 03:48:34 Not `',? 03:49:30 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:50:14 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:09 Zhivago: no, no really 03:51:38 BTW: what function can print 'a to "(quote a)" instead to "'a"? 03:51:44 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-139-221-234.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:16 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-6-86.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:26 Are they different? 03:52:50 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: going to bed ...] 03:53:33 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:53:37 herbieB: differents strings, yes 03:53:37 Hello, I have a question from #lispgames: I want an output-stream I can push characters into it from my 3D window.. which is then connected to an input-stream being processed by a repl in another execution context. Is this possible? 03:54:40 WarWeasle: i don't understand well but maybe you want something like the SLIME swank? 03:55:25 Odd, (eql '(quote a) ''a) => nil 03:55:32 So I guess they are different in memory too :P 03:55:33 marioxcc: Similar, but in the same thread, if possible. 03:56:01 Well, i geuss (eql ''a ''a) => nil too 03:56:28 herbieB: maybe you want (equal '(quote a) ''a) 03:56:51 eql is nil for different (not same objects lists) 03:56:59 Yeah, that makes sense 03:57:00 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:16 Interesting, ((lambda (x) (list (car x) (cadr x))) ''a) evaluates to (quote a) with MIT-Scheme, but 'a with SBCL 03:57:48 franki-, try (set! *unparse-abbregiate-quotations?* #t). 03:57:59 Also try spelling it correctly, unlike I did. 03:58:07 haha 03:58:39 (eql ''a ''a) may be true. 03:58:43 Riastradh: Ah yes, now it says 'a too 03:59:29 Zhivago: should it? 03:59:34 it gives me nil on SBCL 04:01:21 I said "may". 04:01:39 If you kick the computer as you hit enter. 04:01:59 This is why mutating literal lists has undefined behaviour. 04:02:12 The implementation is permitted reuse. 04:03:27 _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has joined #lisp 04:03:47 Zhivago: ok, thanks 04:05:08 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-185-169.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 04:07:04 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:12:57 _8david` [~user@port-92-195-2-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:13:22 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:08 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:14:13 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-103-179.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:18:56 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:17 ][V][ICH` [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:44 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:24:57 ficthe [~ficthe@unaffiliated/ficthe] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 -!- ][V][ICHAEL [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:27:22 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-6-86.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:31:35 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:36:39 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:42 NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 04:46:51 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:57 Good morning everyone! 04:49:19 <][V][ICH`> 9:49 PST 04:49:24 -!- ][V][ICH` [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:50:01 Hi, beach. 04:50:15 ][V][ICHAEL [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:24 0550 BST 04:50:27 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:50:27 Now that it's morning, perhaps there are some Europeans who could lend me some insight about what CLISP's `weak {and, or} {relations, mappings}' are good for. 04:50:29 'morning 04:50:39 Riastradh: Hey, where have you been? Haven't seen you for a while! 04:52:13 Well, I decided one day a few months ago that IRC wasn't substantially helping me to reduce the amount of time I wasted, and then I sort of got addicted to not IRCing... 04:55:15 Actually I think what happened was that the machine I ran my IRC client on crashed and I forgot to start it up again. 04:55:30 heh! 04:58:30 -!- CheebaHawk is now known as PuffTheMagic 04:59:10 Riastradh: perhaps this http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html helps 05:00:21 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as CheebaHawk 05:00:30 though its "what is it good for" is just a rewording of the definition 05:01:10 stassats`, that's the paper where I learned of the existence of such beasts, but it doesn't justify their existence. 05:02:47 As I understood it, they come in handy when you have something large in memory that you may need in the future but you don't care if it gets gc'd 05:02:47 Riastradh: well, the canonical example of weak datastructure usage seems to be lazy computation of many kinds (stuff like object caches too) 05:03:27 also demand-loading stuff etc. 05:03:44 that too 05:03:57 I know what weak references are useful for. What I don't know is what these four particular manifestations of weak references are useful for. 05:05:03 they are variants of the datastructures that support weak references 05:05:42 so a weak hashtable doesn't invalidates the use of weak references by unnecessary triggering them etc. 05:06:13 I know that... What I asked about are weak {and, or} {relations, mappings}. 05:06:46 I know plenty of uses for what Haible weak pointers, weak mappings, weak lists, and weak hash tables (of various flavours). What I don't know are any uses for weak {and, or} {relations, mappings}. 05:07:38 ... they are actually listed in the paper 05:07:44 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:45 maybe asking Bruno directly will be better 05:08:15 Weak and mappings are useful to model properties of sets of objects that become worthless when one of the objects dies. Weak or mappings are useful to model properties of sets of objects that do not become worthless when one of the objects dies. Weak and relations are useful to model relations between objects that become worthless when one of the objects dies. Weak or relations are useful to model ... 05:08:21 ... relations between objects that do not become worthless when one of the objects dies. 05:08:44 that's just a description 05:08:48 I read that, p_l. But what are some examples of these cases? 05:08:59 Riastradh: have you worked with SQL? 05:09:37 Not much. 05:10:34 there are various properties you can attach to foreign keys, which describe what happens when the relation becomes unreachable ("ON DELETE" etc.) 05:11:00 SQL as such sucks. But the underlying relational ideas have some interest. 05:11:06 maybe I should be using AP5... 05:11:17 this way you can ensure proper behaviour of your datastructure in regards to weak pointers. 05:11:48 Can you give a concrete example of their use, p_l? 05:12:06 I couldn't find any with Google, either with the usual web search or with Google Code Search. 05:13:37 not right now, it would depend on the data... but lets say that I had a relation between objects, and instead of triggering a weak reference I want to trigger the destruction of reference when one of the objects becomes unreachable, because the relation no longer interests me (it might be for example recomputed a new later, with new data) 05:14:12 How about a set of parameters to generate a report that is meaningless if the requestor disappears? 05:14:28 Riastradh, I'd gather that a mapping from say, between "interesting" webpages and "interesting" keywords can be pruned when some pages or keywords are dropped from the interesting set. 05:15:05 Zhivago:yeah, but which might be also referenced from other place and you'd like to care less about keeping track of extra weak references 05:15:11 or interesting items and interested customers. 05:15:52 Riastradh: you could consider those weak datastructures as datastructures augmented with GC hooks 05:17:30 given how big of a leak can be caused by dangling references, those can be godsend 05:17:35 oh, how about like what chrome does prefetching DNS mappings when you are on a web-page? If you close that window you'd want the runtime to gc those prefetched mappings when the webpage memory was gc'd 05:18:25 wouldn't you just store them in one structure? 05:18:40 Well, you'd probably really want to use a quasi least recently referenced cache for that. 05:18:46 that wouldn't guarantee that they got gc'd at the same time 05:19:29 Zhivago, why would the set of parameters be stored in a weak {and, or} {mapping, relation} and not merely as the datum of a weak mapping whose key is the requestor? 05:19:41 JesterSks: neither do those weak things 05:19:45 That is, how does the and/or part enter into it? 05:20:41 riastradh: Well, it would be anonymous. 05:20:56 Anonymous? 05:21:00 I mean you could replace all pointers with symbols and a hash table ... 05:21:18 But we often don't want to be able to look up things by name. 05:21:51 (Although, personally, I think that lisp tends to go a bit too far in that direction, so ...) 05:22:12 I don't follow what this has to do with weak and/or relations. 05:22:53 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-32-110.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 05:23:06 Well, you can replace all weak relations with weak hash-tables. 05:23:18 But ... 05:23:28 I understand that. I'm not asking how to implement weak and/or relations. 05:23:41 Or how they can be implemented, or how to think about the way they work, or anything like that. 05:24:11 You were asking why you'd want these when you have perfectly good mappings. 05:24:16 I'm asking about examples of programs that need weak and/or relations in order to work at all, or without space leaks. 05:24:37 Riastradh: it's not that you *need* them, it's just that they make life easier. 05:24:53 The answer is "you don't always want to have keys for things". 05:24:55 p_l, for what programs do they make life easier? 05:25:35 Think about why we use anonymous pointers rather than keys into a jumbo hash-table. 05:25:37 By the way, in case it's not clear, `mapping' here, as used by Haible, does not have its usual mathematical meaning. Rather, a `weak mapping' is just a pair of a key and a datum. A `weak and/or' mapping is a pair of a list of keys and a datum. 05:25:59 (and `key' and `datum' are just labels like `car' and `cdr') 05:27:22 Riastradh: in whatever takes your fancy. It all depends on the data. Show me your data, then we can talk about datastructures to be used. 05:27:47 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 05:30:02 p_l, I have this fabulous data structure on which several operations run in O(sinh n) time. I am very excited about it, and I am going to go to a lot of trouble to implement it carefully. `Clearly,' you think, `this fellow Riastradh has a very interesting application which is not obvious to me, so I think I will ask him what it is all about.' `Well,' I reply, `what are your data? Once you have data, let's talk about data structures.' 05:31:07 Not really analogous. 05:31:45 This is not an exact analogy of a conversation, because you are not Bruno Haible (as far as I know), but I am nevertheless baffled by the reply that I need to give an example of data, which is precisely what I don't have, in order to learn what examples a data structure is good for. 05:31:47 Riastradh: excuse me if I sound slightly inflammatory at the moment, but I'm running on coffeine right now and have little motivation to deliver a full example 05:31:56 It's closer to "why would you use pointers rather than keys and a hash table?" 05:32:10 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:32:24 And that's a case where the client data structures become significant. 05:33:52 It's not close to that at all. There are bajillions of programs you could point to straight away that use pointers, and bajillions of such programs that use hash tables, and bajillions that use both. Can you identify *one* that uses weak and/or relations? 05:33:54 what these mappings aren't certainly making easier, that's finding their application 05:36:07 Riastradh, associating users to files in an ACL? 05:36:09 Weak or relations can be modeled by weak hash tables. 05:36:17 Weak and relations can't. 05:36:24 when you delete a user, remove his name from all ACLs. 05:36:31 when you delete a file, no need for the ACL. 05:37:44 Riastradh: I'll try to make a rather general example. I have some imaginary application A, which uses many interlinked data which is very dynamic in nature. In order to avoid memory leaks, I can either: a) carefully design my datastructures to ensure that no dangling pointers are left anywhere, which might either create a leak or innecessarily increase liveness of objects or b) use weak datastructures as equivalent of ... 05:37:51 ... saying "on delete purge this, this and this", automating the cleanup with less work necessary from the programmer. 05:39:01 sorry if it's not convincing or anything, but right now the only CS-related stuff I should be doing is UX :D 05:39:59 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-155-227.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:40:41 Which comes back to pointers vs. hash-tables. :) 05:41:13 Do you want to manage keys or not? 05:45:13 p_l, sorry, I don't see how weak and/or relations in particular enter into your scenario. 05:45:46 Riastradh, do you understand the ACL scenario? 05:46:30 *p_l* reaches for graphviz docs, this needs some pretty graphs 05:46:32 (access control list) 05:46:49 Fare, can you be more specific about how weak and/or relations work for that example? It sounds like you want a (key-weak, datum-strong) map from files to ACLs, which is in turn a (key-weak, datum-strong) map from users to permissions. 05:47:19 A file can have multiple ACLs. 05:47:25 Zhivago, I'm afraid I really don't understand what you're saying or how it has anything to do with weak and/or relations. 05:47:44 I have conquered gpgme and gnupg! w00t 05:47:58 sure, except that your key then is a pair of user*file, and becomes garbage if either side does. 05:48:45 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:57 so yes, you may implement that as a chain of unary mappings 05:48:57 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:49:02 Fare, so are you talking about representing an access control matrix as a map from pairs of users and files to permissions? 05:49:39 And you want the entry for some particular pair (user, file) to go away if either user goes away or file goes away? 05:49:40 or as a relation, that itself may be indexed in many ways. 05:49:59 Riastradh, for instance. 05:50:40 OK, so you have a relation in User x File x Permission, and you want every entry (user, file, permission) to go away iff user goes away or file goes away. Is that right? 05:50:55 or permission 05:50:58 even 05:51:05 Well, OK. 05:51:13 say if there are magic operations you can do on files that appear or disappear. 05:51:24 or expire 05:52:14 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:53:07 OK. So you will represent the tuple (user, file, permission) as a weak and relation with those three elements? 05:53:25 yes, for instance. 05:55:15 ideally, that's how the filesystems would work. Except that things get "interesting" in presence of partial backups/restore, disconnection/reconnection, disk used with an old version of the OS that doesn't GC properly, or in low-level superpowers mode. 05:55:25 OK. I'll buy that, although usually I'd just represent that as a record with three fields each containing a weak pointer. 05:55:49 Of course, the weakness doesn't help you to clean your list of these weak and mappings when they are destroyed. 05:55:59 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-155-141.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:56:05 Now what about weak or mappings? 05:57:09 a record with three fields -- how do you clean the record when one of the fields goes missing? 05:57:12 a hook on the GC? 05:57:44 weak "or" mappings. Hum. 05:57:54 It doesn't matter unless you're worried about the record becoming large, and having to check every field to see whether it has been broken. 05:58:16 what about logs of all operations done by users on a document? 05:58:36 as long as either the user or document survives, the log entry is interesting. 05:58:48 A group of mutually dependent agents. 05:58:48 if both die, the log entry becomes stale. 05:59:48 problem is, when a user is only interesting because of a log entry, this may cascade into making other entries interesting, then other log entries, then other users, etc. 05:59:50 sucks. 05:59:57 (decoupled via a bus, to make it clearer). 06:00:01 beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-155-141.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:03:20 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 06:05:34 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:43 OK, I'll buy that, too, Fare. 06:05:49 I'd still like to see some real programs that use these things, though. 06:05:54 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:07:00 do we have destructors in CLOS? 06:07:00 However, I'm off to bed now. 06:07:10 or maybe you don't care about cascading interests. 06:07:11 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:07:21 0707 here... too late for bed for me. 06:07:38 which only makes the GC harder. Now you have live, dead and zombies. 06:08:33 Fare: I still think my SQL example was quite good for that. I love strict specifiers in schema, much better than the popular style related to MySQL of doing everything manually :) 06:09:27 Riastradh, nity nite 06:09:50 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:14:13 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:15:37 -!- ][V][ICHAEL [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:17:12 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:24:45 If there's anyone on who uses Postgres via Postmodern - is it possible to do a query against the same connection while you're reading rows via that same connection? 06:24:53 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:07 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:31:38 dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:47 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:34:15 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest54506 06:36:04 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:15 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.196.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:40:47 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-119-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:42:11 schoene [~mark@cpe-65-189-214-151.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:03 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:19 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:00:46 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:04:40 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:24 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:13:04 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:28 CLHS 19.2.2.4.1 suggests that the pathname-host slot is implementation dependent and otherwise unconstrained, 07:14:08 but I seem to remember that there was somewhere something that kind of forced it to be either a string, a list of strings, or the special :unspecific or :wilfe 07:14:37 -!- Guest54506 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:15:42 -!- ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:15:55 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:16:09 -!- schoene [~mark@cpe-65-189-214-151.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:21:07 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:25:04 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:25:50 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 07:26:50 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-32-110.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:31:08 Modius: afaik, no you can't 07:31:33 connections can't be used in multiple threads at the same time 07:31:35 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:33:27 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:34:50 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:35:45 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:39:37 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:44:54 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:44:58 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:32 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:47:03 -!- ficthe [~ficthe@unaffiliated/ficthe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:48:09 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:48:28 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:39 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:38 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 07:52:36 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-152-111.net.novis.pt] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 27yrs 23wks 3days 1hr 21mins 27secs] 07:53:59 -!- JesterSks [~user@pool-72-66-104-166.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 08:00:17 does the protocol even supports that? I doubt it 08:00:39 (postgres' protocol) 08:01:31 p_l: I don't think so 08:01:41 from what I remember 08:01:47 there's no transaction id 08:01:53 -!- ldunn [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:21 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:04:59 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:05:10 galdor: also, postgres isn't multithreaded 08:06:30 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:06:33 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:06:40 it would be kinda hard for it to deal with multiple transactions in each session 08:11:25 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:15:22 still a damn sexy RDBMS :D 08:19:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:23:23 ficthe [~ficthe@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:45 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:12 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-3296.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:51 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:01 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 08:48:53 -!- ficthe [~ficthe@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:02:57 cmsfluff [~cmsimon@c-98-246-44-198.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:40 p_l: well scaling with processes (instead of threads) is simpler (and since I use OpenBSD for servers, I can't thank enough postgresql devs for this choice) 09:07:56 galdor: I know it quite well :) 09:08:38 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082FFB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:45 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082FD51.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:12:30 aloof [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/aloof] has joined #lisp 09:14:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:15:08 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:17:03 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 09:22:16 roklein [~roklein@p57A7B553.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:02 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 09:25:33 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 09:25:46 clim stream-read-gesture,Generic Function 09:25:47 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/22-2.html#_1082 09:26:02 Can someone please help me interpret the description of this function? 09:29:19 In the passage that starts with "stream-read-gesture works by ..." is mentioned "this generic function" Does that mean stream-read-gesture or stream-input wait? 09:29:57 It is hard to understand because that passage is syntactically strange. 09:30:42 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 09:36:30 It says "input-wait-handler is a function of one argument, the stream. It is called with stream-input-wait return false, (that is, no input available)". 09:37:16 Now, stream-input-wait waits until input becomes available, so the only time it could possibly return false is if a timeout was given, right? 09:37:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:37:29 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-333.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 09:37:45 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:47 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-119-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:52 francogrex [~user@109.130.101.123] has joined #lisp 09:40:27 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-210-111.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:41:33 I'm trying to read unicode characters into a lisp implementation that doesn't support unicode. But each time I encounter a unicode characeter, the debugger is invokded "nil is not of type character". in ccl and SBCL of course I don't have this problemm because they support unicode. Is there a way to resolve this (exclusing the obvious of course)? 09:42:37 The obvious being? 09:42:42 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFAAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:54 dealing with it as a byte array? 09:42:55 well: use sbcl or ccl 09:43:34 francogrex: Read it as (unsigned-byte 8) and use code-char to create the right character. 09:43:37 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:43:42 p_l I'm getting this while using cl-win32ole for info 09:44:09 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest38362 09:44:26 beach: ok, I suppose i'll need to modify the insides of the cl-win32ole library for that then 09:45:22 because externally (what i run) it's just this (print (ole ie :document :body :innerText)) 09:45:28 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:53 francogrex: You could probably use some delegate streams, but I can't remember how to do that. 09:46:39 beach: ok, I'll try to google for those see what I get 09:47:10 otherwise i'll also try fiddling with the lib to change reading as (unsigned-byte 8) 09:47:11 francogrex: Or try using flexi-streams 09:47:23 ok 09:49:59 -!- Guest38362 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 09:50:49 didn't babel support multiple charsets and translating between them? there was also some lib that somehow emulated unicode support (enough to transport and mangle the text a little) 09:51:23 p_l: You have to get them from the stream to the Lisp system first. 09:52:43 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-333.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:53:05 beach: well, one of them supported reading (byte 8) streams iirc. 09:53:16 yeah, I would be even ok with mangled text, just that it doesn't break that's all 09:53:53 usually those are one or two weird chars in an otherwise "normal" english page 09:54:04 francogrex: I think flexi-streams can handle that. 09:54:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:54:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.168] has joined #lisp 09:54:16 ok looking into it now 09:56:24 If you think that is overkill, just read bytes, and if they are less than 128 convert them to characters, otherwise discard. 09:56:54 k 09:57:38 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57:44 -!- aloof is now known as aloof_ 09:58:04 -!- aloof_ is now known as aloof 09:58:56 aloof_ [aloof@devio.us] has joined #lisp 09:59:43 -!- aloof [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/aloof] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:00:40 -!- aloof_ is now known as aloof 10:04:11 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D795.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 10:04:57 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:32 -!- aloof [aloof@devio.us] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:14 aloof [aloof@devio.us] has joined #lisp 10:08:58 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:09:08 Probably want unsigned-byte, in any case. 10:09:52 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:25 You can usually infer the encoding by looking at the octet distribution, but that's probably overkill. 10:10:44 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:11:37 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:14:00 well, just discarding the "unwanted character" is fine for the time being 10:14:20 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-201.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:14:24 iconv can be useful for that. 10:14:33 ok 10:14:42 It will convert what it can then you can singlestep over whatever it doesn't like. 10:14:55 -!- aloof is now known as Aloof 10:15:17 Actually, I think it has an option to replace those with something automatically. 10:19:09 -!- symbole [~symbole@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:12 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-201.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 10:24:26 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 10:29:04 -!- Aloof is now known as aloof 10:31:23 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-39-10.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:32:47 jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:33:15 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:33:27 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 10:33:37 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.101.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:37 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 10:41:22 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:55:46 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:57:00 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 11:00:38 Guthur [~michael@host86-139-221-234.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:32 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-278972d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 11:07:45 demopig [~root@unaffiliated/demopig] has joined #lisp 11:07:56 Given (defun *db* nil) is *db* a list? 11:08:41 (listp nil) -> T 11:09:15 demopig: Really "defun"? 11:09:30 The type list is (or null cons) 11:09:41 beach: I'm just going by the book :) 11:09:54 demopig: Are you sure the book said "defun"? 11:10:07 beach: Oops, defvar. 11:10:22 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:10:37 beach: (defvar *db* nil) 11:10:50 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest67722 11:10:52 galdor: Thanks. 11:10:57 -!- demopig [~root@unaffiliated/demopig] has quit [Client Quit] 11:13:37 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:14:26 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:16:25 -!- Guest67722 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 11:26:20 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:26:47 demopig [~root@unaffiliated/demopig] has joined #lisp 11:26:54 Ok, there's something that confuses me. 11:28:04 Given (defvar *db* nil) (push (x) *db*) (push (y) *db*) (format t "~{~{~a: ~%~}~}" *db*) 11:28:12 where x and y are made up of lists 11:28:49 like ("1", "2", "3", "4") and ("5", "6", "7", "8") 11:28:52 x and y return lists? 11:29:00 xach: yep. 11:29:04 (push (x) *db*) pushes the result of calling function x. 11:29:36 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFAAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 11:29:43 Think I'm going to start over this chapter again. 11:30:40 what ultimately confuses me is 11:30:46 The book has a format as so: (format t "~{~a:~10t~a~%~}~%" cd))) 11:30:55 cd is a list of four elements as shown above. 11:31:03 Well, a plist. 11:31:28 (:1 "1" :2 "2" :3 "3" :4 "4") 11:31:43 How does two ~a's cater for each plist element? 11:31:54 Not sure if I'm being articulate 11:32:16 demopig: ~{ ... ~} will eat up elements until the argument is empty 11:32:30 demopig: if there are two ~As inside, it will take elements two at a time 11:32:42 until NIL is found 11:32:45 that makes sense. 11:33:20 and if there's only one element, where it reads two at a time ... 11:33:35 demopig: not until NIL is found. 11:34:26 ah 11:34:49 ok 11:35:11 well, I'll start the chapter over from the beginning so I can recap on anything I missed. 11:35:15 Xach: thanks. 11:35:22 -!- demopig [~root@unaffiliated/demopig] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:37:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:38:46 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:16 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A4B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:22 Riastradh: have you had a satisfying answer on weak and/or mappings? 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13:47:23 That's true. Anything I can do for you? 13:53:45 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:53 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D795.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56:48 afternoon. 13:58:29 Hello aloof. I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 14:00:43 yeah, learning Lisp. 14:01:03 Congratulation! And welcome to #lisp. 14:01:16 beach: ;) 14:01:24 "welcome to freenode" more like :) 14:01:38 Sure, that too! 14:04:48 beach: oh, nothing. 14:04:52 random question 14:04:59 OK. 14:06:43 I removed my Nvidia driver from my Ubuntu 10.04 and I think it was responsible for the long GC-like pauses I had especially when the panel was being unfolded. Sometimes such a pause was followed by a complete crash. 14:07:23 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:08:41 which driver? 14:10:11 aloof: It doesn't give any detail. Just Nvidia accellerated graphics driver. 14:10:58 -!- aloof [aloof@devio.us] has quit [Changing host] 14:10:58 aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has joined #lisp 14:11:36 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:45 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:01 G'morning all. 14:12:02 Hello nyef! 14:12:06 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:35 nyef: Do you have time to help me interpret a passage in the CLIM 2 spec? 14:13:45 Sure, which passage? 14:13:51 clim stream-read-gesture,Generic Function 14:13:52 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/22-2.html#_1082 14:14:50 I guess the input-wait-test doesn't wait, it just returns true or false, but I can't figure out its role. 14:15:14 And I can't figure out which generic function takes :around methods. 14:16:17 My read on the :around method thing is that it applies to stream-read-gesture, not stream-input-wait or input-wait-test. 14:16:27 OK. 14:16:41 It also says "when stream-input-wait returns false (that is no input available)" but stream-input-wait normally waits when there is no input available, and it returning false would imply that it timed out. 14:17:04 Perhaps he meant input-wait-test instead of stream-input-wait? 14:17:17 It's the test used by stream-input-wait, surely? 14:17:26 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:14 Zhivago: So you agree that there must be a typo there? 14:18:47 Actually, my initial read is that this applies to the whole event framework, which is badly specified to begin with. 14:19:43 Also, the use of the word "input" here is confusing. Does it mean any input or just input that could be returned as a gesture? 14:20:07 input-wait-test is a function of one argument, the stream. The function should return true when there is input to process, otherwise it should return false. 14:20:12 Okay, stream-input-wait waits for input (in which case it returns true) or a timeout (in which case it returns false). 14:20:21 zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:36 Zhivago: Yes, I saw that. 14:20:47 So, where's the typo? 14:20:59 I guess the best thing would be to figure out what the problem is it tries to solve and come up with a solution to it. Perhaps I come up with the same one! 14:20:59 14:21:01 After the timeout expires, and if there is no input, then the input-wait-handler gets called. 14:21:15 stream-input-wait would call stream-input-test to see if there is input, otherwise presumably it calls inoput-wait-handler. 14:21:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:46 Now, what I find interesting is that stream-input-wait takes a timeout, but the test doesn't... 14:21:48 Zhivago: it says input-wait-handler is called when stream-input-wait returns false. 14:22:10 nyef: Yes, I take it the test exists only to abstract out how the envent queue is represented. 14:22:21 Yes, but that would all be contingent upon stream-input-test returning nil. 14:22:25 Quite probably, but it's still broken. 14:22:32 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:13 Zhivago: But when stream-input-test returns nil, presumably stream-input-wait waits until input is available, and does not return false (unless it times out), no? 14:23:15 Presumably the timeout interrupts input-wait-handler somehow ... gah 14:23:31 Zhivago: How can it? 14:23:41 OK, I am not the only one who is confused here. That's at least a bit reassuring. 14:23:47 Magic. 14:23:53 The timeout is handed off to stream-input-wait. 14:24:11 stream-input-wait is given the stream, the wait-test, and the timeout. 14:24:13 Signal on a timer with non-local transfer? :) 14:24:27 Well it has to be handed off via a special variable, in that case. 14:24:56 Actually, there's no reasonable way to implement stream-input-wait short of a loop calling the wait-test until it returns true or the timeout expires. 14:25:33 The timeout is as for stream-read-gesture, which doesn't take a timeout. :) 14:25:48 Hello? First keyword argument? 14:25:57 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 I don't get any keyword arguments here. 14:26:14 Maybe the html is broken. 14:26:31 Looks fine here. 14:26:32 Fifth paragraph in the description? 14:27:42 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:57 So far as I'm concerned, this is yet another example of the brain-damage inherent in the CLIM event/input system. 14:28:37 nyef: What are some more examples? It might be time to fix those problems. 14:28:52 Hmm. Cut and paste are also broken. This is odd. 14:29:48 -!- cmsfluff [~cmsimon@c-98-246-44-198.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:51 -!- CheebaHawk is now known as PuffTheMagic 14:30:02 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:24 nyef: I suppose the problem that this function is trying to solve is that some other activity is going on (such as pointer motion and button presses) while this function is being invoked, and we don't want it to return until those other activities result in a "real" gesture to return. Is that the correct interpretation? 14:31:29 zophy[[obsd]] [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:54 Anyway, thanks to both of you for taking the time! 14:33:10 Aren't gestures just the meaningful actions of the user? 14:33:22 I don't think that it's any more broken than CL's basic i/o model. 14:33:43 -!- lightbulb [~null@ppp-70-128-101-251.dsl.tulsok.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:12 -!- NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:55 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:35:29 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:35:30 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-139-221-234.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:37:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.101.123] has joined #lisp 14:37:35 beach: If you go all the way down to the description of the different kinds of events, it's not even consistent about it. 14:38:07 Depending on where you look, there are between two and... five? maybe four different major groupings of events. 14:38:27 billitch1 [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:39 I finally enabled-unicode and rebuild my system but (stream-external-format *standard-input*) shows only (:LATIN-1 :CRLF) ! 14:39:12 francogrex: Check your LOCALE. 14:40:37 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 14:40:47 beach: Another thing that amazes me in terms of error-handling is that all repaint and almost all input handling (and thus things like gadget callbacks) is specified to occur in the port input-processing thread. 14:41:37 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:42:09 -!- zbrown [455456b79f@unaffiliated/zbrown] has left #lisp 14:42:34 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.101.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:25 nyef: congrats (-: 14:44:38 still not celebrating? 14:45:38 mega1: What did I miss? 14:45:47 Heh. My celebratory beverage was a cup of peppermint tea. 14:46:04 beach: Threads on Linux/PPC. 14:46:16 nyef: Ah, very nice! 14:46:36 may I ask how much time went into this? 14:46:51 Original time estimate: One week. Actual time spent: Two months. 14:46:52 (including all the stuff that made it possible) 14:47:14 8 hours per day? 14:47:22 ZabaQ [~john.conn@host86-145-59-119.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:07 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:13 I suspect that CLIM has a few ideas that are worth stealing, mainly with respect to presentations, and the rest isn't. 14:48:16 Not 8 hour days, no. 14:48:47 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:49:05 My original thought was that we already have threading going on a couple CPUs, therefore the main trouble is going to be adding the support to the compiler. 14:49:09 Zhivago: Possibly, but it takes time to come up with something coherent. 14:49:11 Which is what I committed last night. 14:49:41 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:49:44 Do most of you use CL as your main language/s? 14:49:58 aloof: I certainly do. 14:50:07 Then it turned out that the runtime wasn't actually set up for threaded operation, and the x86oids got a free pass because of their control stack issues. 14:50:13 beach: That's true -- I've been playing with a simple message system for gestures and using cursors for dom tree management. 14:50:18 aloof: My main language is english, but CL is a close second. 14:50:56 nyef: :) 14:51:16 beach: As it develops I'd like to try something like presentations where they can be used to assemble commands. 14:51:32 beach: Yeah, just trying to think of application, where I can replace it with other languages. 14:51:35 From the runtime, it was then the barriers, and then it turned out that the GC never actually worked right... 14:51:44 aloof: Pretty much any application. 14:51:56 I'm starting to like it, so far - but that's probably because I'm uneducated on its pitfalls. 14:52:17 aloof: The other way around, I meant. You can replace existing langauges with Lisp in pretty much any application. 14:52:23 Pitfalls? The complete lack of Atari 2600 emulation in Lisp. 14:52:50 *nyef* hasn't played Pitfall II in ages. 14:52:53 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 14:52:54 Zhivago: Presentations are nice. 14:53:00 aloof: I like to start with (subtypep '(array integer) '(array string)) ;) 14:53:11 Mmm... Presentations are wonderful, I wish SLIME had them. 14:53:25 (SLIME presentations suck.) 14:53:39 beach: Presentations and commands are about all that I can see being worth salvaging. 14:54:43 -!- Hraban [~Hraban@94-226-250-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:05 Hmm. But first I need to get super macros working. 14:55:14 Zhivago: Good luck! 14:56:11 No luck required, just a little patience. 14:57:04 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:57:50 -!- _8david` [~user@port-92-195-2-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:59 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:58:50 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:06 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:02:38 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:58 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:03:16 bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:21 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:33 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:04:04 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:05:17 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D795.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:17:14 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:56 clhs compute-restarts 15:17:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comp_1.htm 15:20:05 the restart system is the one major part of CL that still confuses me. 15:21:07 It's certainly different from everything else. 15:21:37 which is probably why :-) 15:21:49 the part that confuses me is the pathname system 15:22:12 zabaq: signals + non-local transfer? 15:23:03 restarts are dynamically scoped functions 15:23:58 dto: Seems like it could be useful in building a VFS, though. All sorts of fields to handle FS-specific information. :D 15:24:14 possibly associated to condition objects 15:24:23 odin: I think of logical pathnames are being the only worthwhile bit, and they define a virtual lisp fs, imjo. 15:24:59 j? 15:25:08 tcr: that helps 15:25:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:26:01 The bit that annoys me about lisp pathnames is that there's no defined way to specify a different way to open a file (in order to substitute a different stream class, for example). 15:26:08 Odin-: yes 15:26:13 nyef: I finally got the trie printing work nicely, the pprint system isn't very easy to understand. The adding of words is much cleaner now also. I still need to add removal of words. I'll show the code, when that is ready, but now I need something to eat... 15:26:35 zabaq: Think of it as -- raise a signal, handle it, search for somewhere to jump to, do the jump. 15:26:45 Yeah true, understanding pprint involves lots of trial&error 15:26:48 peterhil: Congratulations. And enjoy your meal. 15:26:49 I also thought of later making a nondustructive version. 15:26:53 Thanks. 15:27:17 Zhivago: restarts are more general than that 15:27:33 I'm sure you know 15:27:39 I guess you're trying to simplify 15:29:08 I think you need some context to get started, yeah. 15:29:12 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:39 slyrus: herep 15:30:35 Anyone here used Clojure enough to have informed questions about Clojure's design vis a vis other Lisps? 15:30:49 (I've got a guy doing an interview with Rich Hickey for Code Quarterly) 15:31:13 Zhivago: I disagree in this case though. For long time I had a vague idea about restarts, pretty much what gigamonkey described in PCL, and had a huge revelation when I found out it's just dynamically scoped functions. 15:32:39 tcr: Fair enough. 15:32:48 I think it's worth looking at the implementation once one has a basic idea of the condition system 15:33:54 Well, dynamically scoped functions plus the ability to query whether they're fbound. 15:34:15 gigamonkey: or just dynamic variables bound to functions. 15:35:04 pkhuong_: yes. 15:35:24 gigamonkey: "dynamically bound functions possibly associated to condition objects" covers all aspects :-) 15:35:48 tcr: so Xof is working at your startup? (: 15:36:10 -!- aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:36:14 pkhuong_, yes, Fare gave reasonably satisfactory answers. 15:36:15 I'm constrained by NDA 15:36:29 well, your NDA just got violated by your blog post (-; 15:36:54 not horribly, as there is ambiguity, but still (: 15:37:16 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 Riastradh: I've used them [in hash tables] for interning (weak on both) and for caching (weak on either). 15:37:37 pkhuong_, huh? How did you use weak {and, or} relations? 15:38:06 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:36 -!- zophy[[obsd]] [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:38:40 interning, I had weakness set up so that the entry was dropped if either the key of the value would be GCed. 15:38:42 Hmm, methods might be another case. 15:39:39 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-82-223.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:39:45 If any of the classes disappear then you want all methods that have a specializer on it to go away. 15:40:18 Zhivago: if only the mop didn't specify *lists* everywhere 15:40:47 antifuchs: I got stuck in London yesterday on my way from KL to gothenborg and I spent the night on Xof's coach :-) 15:40:58 Well, what you can't see ... 15:41:07 (-: 15:41:10 Riastradh: and caching, when both the key and the value would be GCed (useful for non-EQ hash tables) 15:41:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:42:13 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:44:49 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:45:24 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:48:16 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:52:10 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:36 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-21-172.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@236.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 15:53:24 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:21 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:43 -!- prip [~foo@host136-122-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:59 timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:45 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:55 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-179-161.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:41 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-gjjdejtpaojgrkwj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:38 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:51 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-210-111.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 16:08:31 -!- cpage_ [~cpage@ip72-194-211-225.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:08 cpage_ [~cpage@ip72-194-211-225.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:13 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-32-254.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:16 francogrex [~user@109.130.101.123] has joined #lisp 16:15:22 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-234-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:25 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-234-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:59 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:18 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:07 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFAAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:26 despite hints i still can't get my head around this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113314 16:32:15 what's the stream you print to in the latter case? 16:32:36 standard-ouput rifght? 16:33:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:14 Right. 16:33:31 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:35 nyef, i tried Locale but still set to latin-1 16:33:46 Oh stream-external-format is not a generic function part of gray streams? 16:34:22 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:54 tcr: (STREAM-EXTERNAL-FORMAT *standard-output*) >> (:LATIN-1 :CRLF) CAN4T SEM TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE IT 16:35:11 sorry for capitals was an error 16:35:21 brb 16:36:52 gigamonkey: hey 16:36:55 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:38:16 ... Is it SETFable? 16:38:40 nyef: I think he meant he's not able to change it via changing locale settings 16:38:40 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-33-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:38:46 I hope at least 16:39:04 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 16:39:11 hello 16:39:14 /msg gigamonkey perhaps you could ask André Thieme, he has been working with Clojure for at least one year. 16:39:42 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 16:39:44 Oops! 16:41:04 tcr: yes through locale setting and when doing (setf (STREAM-EXTERNAL-FORMAT *standard-output*) :utf-8) system freezes! 16:41:18 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:23 stream-external-format is not an accessor 16:43:23 francogrex: how do you change locale? 16:43:53 tcr: i'm on windows so it's through the control pannel 16:44:13 (ext::stream-external-format-set *standard-output* :UTF-8) this also but doesn't do anything 16:46:23 *francogrex* thinks that maybe, just maybe in .emacs also need to change the encoding (confused) 16:50:15 slime-net-coding-system? 16:52:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-168.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:52:37 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:52:41 could something like this be done: (xxx (stream1 *standard-output* :direction :input :external-format :utf-8) ....) and then I would write to that stream 16:52:56 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:53:59 I guess sbcl does not take locale settings into account on windows 16:54:07 nyef probably knows 16:54:16 I don't actually. 16:54:36 It's been ages since I did serious windows hacking. 16:54:59 tcr: well, in sbcl (and ccl) i have no problem it works ok (sorry I haven't specified) it's ECL that's doing that 16:56:31 in sbcl (stream-external-format *standard-output*) >> (:CP437 :REPLACEMENT #\?) 16:57:14 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:10 navigator [~navigator@p54897447.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:27 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 so assuming CP437 is what I need here, trying to (ext::stream-external-format-set *standard-output* :CP437) doesn't help me 17:01:49 It's ok, I'll try to figure it out, may take some time but usually in the end (usually after midnight!) I'd find a way 17:02:56 tcr: Looks like SBCL does the right thing on windows. 17:04:15 yes indeed it does fine 17:09:49 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:19 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:10:19 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:13:59 _8david` [~user@port-92-195-2-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:53 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:16:52 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@host86-145-59-119.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:10 -!- ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@host86-145-59-119.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:27 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:17:34 ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:47 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:19:51 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host86-145-59-119.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:19:55 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 17:20:29 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.101.123] has quit [Quit: be back] 17:21:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:21:48 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:22:33 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:49 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:25:15 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:53 xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.88] has joined #lisp 17:26:19 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D795.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:27:04 bojovs [~bojovs@p4173-ipad49hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:27:22 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:27:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:28:01 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 -!- bojovs [~bojovs@p4173-ipad49hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:48 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.112.128] has joined #lisp 17:32:19 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 17:32:48 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33:08 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:17 me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-239-91.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b1c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:42:15 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:43:58 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b1c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:46:16 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:53 How do you usually do unit testing with Lisp? Do you use some package, or make your own? 17:52:35 i'd use some package 17:53:26 there are different unit testing tools, from primitive lisp-unit, to more featureful fiveam, lift, and so on. 17:53:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53:48 usually you make it its own system, too 17:54:05 schoppenhauer [~christoph@p5B0BD236.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:09 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@p5B0BD236.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:54:09 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:54:17 the only problem with it being its own package is that it'll USE the actualy package which means that you're restricted to exported symbols only 17:54:30 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 17:54:34 this can be a hassle when you're trying to find out why a test fails 17:54:40 I use sb-rt and have a separate package for the tests than whatever I'm testing. 17:54:48 because you're in the foo-test package and can hence not access the internal functions 17:54:56 -!- bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:55:27 Well, there are two ways to deal with that. One is to make sure your interfaces are sufficient for such testing. And the other is to allow FOO-TESTS to access internal symbols of FOO. 17:55:44 bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:56:12 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:05 Yeah I'd like to have a repl that's within two package simultaneously 17:57:47 What would that mean? 17:58:16 that you can use symbols present in either packages 17:58:36 tcr: and if there's conflicts? 17:58:47 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:59:06 I mean, what's the difference between importing all internal symbols from package A into package B, here? 17:59:29 it doesn't import newly interned symbols 17:59:31 between importing, and having 'a repl in two packages at the same time', I mean. 17:59:39 hm 17:59:56 though in which package that REPL would intern symbols is unclear 18:00:28 the first one specified is the master package or something like that 18:00:44 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:31 sykopomp: in case of name conflicts, the user decides 18:04:57 JesterSks [~user@pool-72-66-104-166.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 Speaking of packages, I tried to use sbcl's package locks but found them to be too strict 18:05:08 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 Too strict for what? 18:05:32 They're supposed to support one specific section of the spec. 18:05:34 they're made according to that 19.x.y.z section 18:05:54 but that does not reflect praxis beyond the cl package 18:06:09 Right. 18:06:18 If I have a package FOO with a function BAR, I want to save against redefinition of FOO in the function namespace 18:06:34 but I'm fine if another package using FOO to define a symbol macro called BAR 18:07:13 or a class etc 18:08:01 Ah. 18:08:09 Redefinition is the actual thing you face and want to guard against in a multi-men project working within the same package 18:08:15 Can't help you there. 18:11:46 nyef: nice work! 18:11:54 slyrus: Thanks. 18:11:55 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:12:08 slyrus: So now the question is, who covers the other OSes? 18:12:20 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:12:38 heh 18:12:53 nyef: Do you know why the value of a widetag is constrained and not an arbitrary bit pattern? Can it happen that that value is reached by the GC? 18:13:51 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:13:55 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 18:13:55 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 18:14:53 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:01 tcr: Sure, widetags are seen by the GC. Just look at CHARACTER-WIDETAG. 18:15:14 -!- roklein [~roklein@p57A7B553.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:15:37 So the constraints on widetags start with "must be an other-immediate", and go from there. 18:16:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:16:51 For certain efficiencies, they must be 8 bits wide, but two of those bits are for the other-immediate-lowtag, giving six bits of freedom. 18:17:02 Yo slyrus. 18:17:05 There's some reason why zero isn't valid. 18:17:10 hey gigamonkeyl what's up? 18:17:14 (Something to do with type tests, I think.) 18:17:22 ZabaQ [~john.conn@host86-145-59-119.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:24 I noticed that you were hanging out in #clojure the other day. 18:17:32 It's not obvious to me why it's reached by gc 18:17:32 And then after that it's mostly playing games with the bit patterns to optimize certain type tests. 18:17:42 gigamonkey: yeah, I have been for the last couple weeks 18:17:43 I mean why it's reached as an arbitrary lisp value 18:17:48 I wondered if you had any questions about Clojure's design that should be put to Rich Hickey in the Code Quarterly interview 18:18:10 Because objects on the heap have a header with a widetag... With the notable exception of conses. 18:18:12 I.e. questions that would occur to someone who knows other Lisps. 18:18:34 So if the GC sees a non-header value when scavenging the heap, it knows it's found a cons. 18:18:36 ah, lemme think about that for a bit 18:18:54 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:14 nyef: Doesn't conses have their own lowtag? 18:19:22 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:49 Sure, but if you're scavenging the heap spaces, then you just have an untagged native pointer to the next object to check. 18:20:11 I'd think that the GC needs to know about header layout and hence knows about which field contains a widetag 18:20:27 why is that not the case? 18:20:45 Again, conses don't have a header. The header is the field with the widetag. 18:20:53 ah 18:21:00 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 18:21:17 hm no I don't think I get it yet :-) 18:21:48 nevermind, getting struck by sudden jet lag 18:24:16 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:25:55 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:30:19 -!- bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:20 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:02 -!- ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:41:17 TomJ- [~tomj@78.148.49.136] has joined #lisp 18:41:21 -!- TomJ [~tomj@78.147.133.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:43:30 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:45 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:44:25 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:39 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:36 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:47:01 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:48:52 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:17 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:51:26 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:51:34 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:36 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:52:12 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:52:36 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:41 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.177.76.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:02:42 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:06:02 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:08:09 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:38 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:09:47 -!- _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:47 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:05 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:13:28 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:28 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:19 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.150.116] has joined #lisp 19:17:01 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:20:55 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:04 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.64.22] has joined #lisp 19:22:39 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:57 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 19:30:13 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:30:46 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:31:00 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-239-91.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:24 zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:27 -!- benny` [~user@i577A2240.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:33:40 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:34:47 How easy is it to cross-compile using ECL? How good is the support to call native C functions from a separate library? 19:35:04 I'd like to try to get lisp running on webos devices some day 19:35:23 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:55 benny [~user@i577A8623.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:36:21 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:37:40 It is built on the linux kernel which may or may not help 19:37:57 2.6.24 according to wiki 19:38:46 what is built? 19:38:49 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:39:24 says it shares alot of the common software stack 19:39:47 oh, webos, what an unfortunate name 19:39:49 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebOS#Platform 19:39:54 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:05 Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:40:32 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:40:37 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:40:51 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:41:33 -!- Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41:44 Guthur: the NDK allows the execution of C code... and it basically has a mature linux environment 19:41:48 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:56 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:04 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:25 thing is that in case you want to write an NDK app which you can use as a card (thus use within a normal webos application), you need to implement specific C functions. The other way around requires you to call specific C functions. I think it should be fairly simple to create an extension to use CL and parenscript for apps. 19:43:52 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:20 it could also be nice to just write lisp applications and only render the html/javascript for the interaction with the application 19:45:40 webos also has sdl bindings, so you could build SDL games fairly easily too 19:45:50 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:46:31 separate interface and logic parts? that's not nice, that's pretty obvious 19:47:18 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 19:47:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 19:47:35 stassats`: the nice thing is using lisp for applications running on a smartphone 19:48:20 i don't see the difference between using lisp for applications running elsewhere 19:48:55 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:55 there needn't be a difference 19:49:14 I just prefer lisp... so why would I try to use something else? 19:49:42 there can be several reasons 19:50:07 stassats`: I'm not trying to do the impossible here, neiter am I trying to promote webos... I'm just hoping that I can develop on webos, using common lisp 19:50:39 and i'm not trying to discourage you 19:50:59 i don't know where i got the idea that i'm against using Common Lisp on some particular platform 19:51:36 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:08 but my initial question still holds: will I, as a non-C guy, be able to create specifically named C functions with ECL. Even better: where can I find examples of such a thing 19:52:28 stassats`: you mean: where I got the idea that you were against it? 19:52:29 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:37 in the manual, i believe 19:53:02 stassats`: what kind of thing would I be searching for? Is there a specific term or something? 19:54:07 http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch23.html 19:55:27 stassats`: thanks! 19:55:32 *madnificent* grabs food 19:56:58 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.64.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:00:07 Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host189-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:01:46 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:02:37 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:05:02 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:05:41 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 20:06:20 -!- Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host189-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:13 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:52 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:47 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@rrcs-67-78-79-54.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:27 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 20:18:50 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:21:09 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:22:34 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-207-250.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:23:45 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-216-216.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:31 urandom__ [~user@p548A6717.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:37 Bronsa [~bronsa@host189-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:29:57 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:06 nyef & others: Thanks, I just read answers to the unit testing question. FiveAM seems like I could like it. 20:34:02 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:39:14 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:40:19 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:40:39 peterhil: The thing is, a unit-testing framework is one of those things that is trivial to build yourself. Even gigamonkey did it. 20:42:09 nyef: what do you mean "*even* gigamonkey did it" hrumph 20:43:25 *stassats`* thinks how to solve a problem when you don't want some methods to be called at certain times 20:43:41 maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:43:53 the obvious one is having a special variable *dont-call-now* 20:44:33 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:47:25 another one is, perhaps, contextl, but i don't know what contextl is yet 20:49:11 well, contextl would do what you want 20:49:38 me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-239-91.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:13 in the way i want? i don't want to rehaul my whole program because of it 20:51:10 stassats`: contextl lets you have dynamically scoped methods 20:51:10 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:22 gigamonkey: I mean it was trivial enough to go into a basic book on how to program in Lisp. 20:51:31 no more overhaul then using a special.. 20:51:50 ... "overhaul"? 20:52:34 instead of DEFGENERIC use DEFINE-LAYERED-FUNCTION, instead of defmethod, DEFINE-LAYERED-METHOD. Instead of DEFVAR use DEFLAYER, and instead of (if *dont-call-now* use DEFINE-LAYERED-METHOD :in-layer. 20:52:51 it goes with the label "context oriented programming", i don't know how much reorientation i need 20:53:06 "We're lost. Which way is magnetic north?" 20:53:14 well, the thing is, i want a new method on (SETF SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS) 20:53:25 stassats`: so use slot-value-using-layer 20:53:38 or rather (setf slot-value-using-layer) 20:54:33 that said, if it's just in the one spot and not a bigger pattern, use a specal. 20:57:01 what i actually have: i have modified-p slot in some class which contains other objects, and it's set to T whenever one of the objects gets modified, but i don't want to that to be done during loading of those objects 20:57:03 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:57:05 i figure the easiest way would be to set modified-p to NIL after loading and leave everything as it is 20:58:00 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:32 though since there are many objects, calling unnecessary methods could somewhat impact loading time 21:00:43 though, there are only 100,000 of them as of yet 21:01:12 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:42 francogrex [~user@109.130.157.51] has joined #lisp 21:05:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:00 aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has joined #lisp 21:07:15 well, it gets almost thrice as slow 21:09:10 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:47 i guess because it's called twice, once from shared-initialize, and then from my code 21:10:01 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-ce8372d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:51 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:31 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:09 nyef: when you're lost, magnetic north is NOT the direction to ask. It changes over time! 21:12:21 (and over places too) 21:12:51 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-ce8372d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:00 pjb: It was a quote, actually. The scenario was a couple people breaking into a restricted area and getting caught by a security robot. 21:15:32 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:15:43 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:10 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.157.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:55 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:57 -!- aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:18:36 varjag_ [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:20:09 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:20:55 lightbulb [~null@ppp-70-128-101-251.dsl.tulsok.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:07 perhaps i should set modified-bit in another place 21:21:53 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:22:58 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:16 hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@rrcs-67-78-79-54.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:19 but why adding a :before method to (setf slot-value-using-class) with an empty body increases consing by 4MB is beyond me 21:24:22 -!- hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@rrcs-67-78-79-54.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:07 Heh. "Mice are purported to work best when rolled around on the surface of a Lisp Machine Manual." 21:25:47 nyef: Nice! :) 21:26:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:09 beach: From a 1982 introduction to MIT computing facilities. 21:26:37 nyef: Why am I not surprised? :) 21:28:12 carlocci [~nes@93.37.211.73] has joined #lisp 21:29:21 ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:25 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:29 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host189-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:01 stassats`: it's a custom metaclass? 21:30:14 yes 21:31:19 hrm... i'm thinking you may have managed to defeat an optimisation and that would explain the consing.... 21:32:26 ie: before you added that :before, it was optimising your s-v-u-c calls down to direct slot accesses.. now you're forcing it to go throught the who s-v-u-c machinery. 21:32:54 *drewc* could be way off though. 21:33:24 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 21:37:33 zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:57 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:13 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:41:18 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:43:13 lispm [~joswig@g224045128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:09 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@rrcs-67-78-79-54.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 21:45:43 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:47:38 symbole [~symbole@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:33 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:49:26 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51:32 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:51:49 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 21:51:57 hi 21:52:21 is standard the use of "with-slots" with a struct? 21:52:39 -!- zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:06 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 21:53:29 no 21:54:58 ok, thanks 21:55:28 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:19 drewc: turns out this only happens during the initialization part of make-instance 21:56:36 calling (setf s-v-u-c) by hand doesn't cons 21:59:47 huh, initialize-instance conses more than allocate-instance 22:00:06 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:00:47 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:02:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-168.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:02:23 and initialize-instance doesn't cons at all on CCL 22:02:31 oh well 22:04:10 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:54 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.150.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:05:06 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:25 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:05:46 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:49 stassats`, does that matter a lot? 22:06:20 yes, relatively 22:09:33 adding dynamic-extent declartion to initialize-instance which applies intargs to shared-initialize reduces consing, though not entirely 22:11:24 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:27 doing the same to shared-initialize reduces it further 22:12:53 olgagirl [~olgagirl@ANantes-552-1-20-225.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:13:48 -!- olgagirl [~olgagirl@ANantes-552-1-20-225.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:36 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:20:25 could SBCL recognize (&rest args) (apply args) pattern? 22:21:06 stassats`: if it's inlined, I think it would. 22:21:33 Might cons up the list anyway, though. 22:22:13 I'm really not sure what the logic is around the &more processing. 22:22:55 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:24:21 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:33 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:24:34 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:25:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:27:29 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:44 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:32 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:33:22 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54897447.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:47 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224045128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:37 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 22:55:43 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:56:12 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:44 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:52 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:59:59 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:00:00 *stassats`* finally got lost in PCL 23:00:13 while trying to figure why change-class is so slow 23:01:11 leave a trail of breadcrumbs or you might not make it back out. 23:01:12 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:28 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:01:37 too late 23:02:21 though i got why it's slow, because of initargs checking 23:02:30 though why initargs checking is slow, i don't know 23:03:57 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:17 davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 stassats`: the ecl guide isn't really verbose regarding the embedding of ECL 23:06:59 can you call functions defined in ECL from C code? 23:07:11 do either CFFI or UFFI provide something like that? 23:07:48 madnificent: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dCallbacks.html#Tutorial_002dCallbacks 23:07:52 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:08:01 yay! 23:08:26 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFAAA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:08:53 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:41 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:50 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-33-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 23:14:12 nyef: Care to see or comment the trie code? It's at http://paste.lisp.org/display/113321 23:14:39 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:15:34 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:40 i see too much RETURN-FROM 23:16:19 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.88] has joined #lisp 23:16:22 stassats`: How would you break the recursion then? 23:16:30 huh? 23:16:37 return-from has nothing to do with recursion 23:17:12 peterhil: (if foo x y) for instance 23:17:29 Other input is welcome also. Especially tips on good style and lisp idioms. 23:17:33 aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has joined #lisp 23:17:53 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:17:55 <_3b`> DEFPARAMETER is an odd way to set *print-pretty* and *print-circle* 23:18:10 Indentation is wrong. It's usually 2 spaces. 23:18:20 Using both &optional and &key arguments in the same arglist is very odd. 23:18:38 I made the functions that way, because I wanted them to be tail-recursive. But I'm not sure will they use the tail recursion optimizations. 23:18:39 why are there lines containing only a closing paren? 23:19:20 -!- ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:19:36 *madnificent* likes the documentation on top :) Could include the license though 23:20:15 modnificient: I will fix those orphan parens... They are leftovers, from when trying to get the pprint-trie work right and fiddling with it. 23:20:35 I thought of using BSD license, when this is more polished. 23:20:43 peterhil: so, do you understand what return-from is doing? 23:21:00 Yes, it returns, from the named enclosing block. 23:21:07 returns from... 23:21:35 right, do you understand that it doesn't "break the recursion"? 23:21:37 If I have understood correctly. 23:21:46 Yes, that is the point also. 23:22:03 It comes back a level on the tree. 23:22:09 peterhil: what is returned when the function foo is called: (defun foo () 1) 23:22:18 peterhil: so, you're using return-from where it shouldn't be used 23:22:23 I 23:22:23 I'll paste some example usage session also... 23:23:00 modnificient: It returns the last expression, which is 1 23:23:00 setf of *print-miser-width* in pprint-trie is probably not a good idea. Bind it instead. 23:23:33 peterhil: aha, so why would you write something like (return-from find-seq nil) ? 23:23:37 rtoym: I didn't quite understand how the miser-thing works... So I disabled it for now. 23:23:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:24:06 peterhil: Instead of setf, (let ((*print-miser-width* nil)) ...) 23:26:01 *rtoym* tends to use cond instead of if if if needs to use progn on both branches. 23:26:20 peterhil: you could translate that previous part to (unless (null symbol) (fund-seq symbol (subseq seq 1))) and it would do the same thing 23:26:43 madnificent: (when symbol ...) 23:26:46 rtoym: perhaps that's clearer in practice too if if if 23:27:04 stassats`: there, you made me look like a fool. thanks :) 23:27:26 brb 23:27:31 Heh. If should have capitalized the first and third if's to make it clearer. 23:27:38 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-3296.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:28:01 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:19 rtoym: it's a clear and correct sentence... it looks funny when you only stare at it 23:28:43 buffalo buffalo buffalo? 23:28:52 minion: chant! 23:28:53 MORE POLISHED 23:29:47 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:40 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:46 Heh. Reminds me of "I said that that that that that man said should have been in italics." 23:36:13 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:47 Or the had had sentence 23:37:42 nyef: now that took a while to figure out 23:37:55 nyef: when you're caught by security robot, the correct answer is: "I'm the ambassador of the Supreme Chancellor, and I'm taking these people to Coruscant.". 23:39:17 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:40:08 rtoym: I forgot about cond... too many new things to learn at once. :-) 23:41:20 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: bitsurge] 23:42:09 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:43:45 pjb: I still haven't seen episodes 1 through 3. 23:44:06 pjb: And I haven't seen any of the movies in years. 23:44:16 ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:07 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.197] has joined #lisp 23:45:32 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:52 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722150226]] 23:47:02 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:22 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:18 rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #lisp 23:51:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.112.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:53:55 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:55:42 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:58:12 *p_l* haven't seen SW episode 3. Lost the drive after 2nd :/ 23:59:38 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp