00:00:09 adeht: yeah, I just read some more of it. 00:00:10 hm 00:00:19 Takes a beating as far as I can tell. 00:00:30 from the reddit posts i get that many lisper hate Arc or expected more from it 00:00:53 Well, if you can't break it now, don't worry about it. If it's going to break, it'll definitely happen once threading starts up. 00:01:01 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-179-136.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:01:06 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:01:37 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:01:41 (As that's how I found the underlying problem in the first place.) 00:01:43 i dont care about the implementation at all, i just care if the language is any good 00:02:12 you have to see for yourself 00:02:54 the only impact of Arc i've seen is too much pointless discussions about it 00:03:58 yeah too much talking but i like the writing style of the guy behind it 00:05:01 I really need to spend a weekend sometime getting threading working on openbsd 00:06:22 i would like to get some input like "that feature is nice about Arc, makes stuff much easier than in CL" or "bah its not nearly as powerfull as CL cause of this or that" 00:06:36 speaking of testing... whatever happened to pfdietz's ansi test suite? 00:08:11 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:08:38 joshe: Threading on openbsd generally, or for SBCL? 00:08:57 for SBCL 00:09:15 joshe: And if it's specifically SBCL/PPC, you'll have to wait a week. 00:09:17 although openbsd needs work on threading in general 00:09:42 (I haven't finished committing the ppc-threading stuff yet.) 00:10:00 the only complete threading library is 1:n unfortunately, the 1:1 library still needs a bunch of kernel work 00:10:23 Can you use 1:n with n=1? 00:10:26 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:10:40 jch [~jch@94.254.224.100] has joined #lisp 00:10:53 I wouldn't worry about ppc until had x86* working 00:11:16 the last time I tried I ran into mysterious errors which I couldn't ever figure out 00:11:22 *stassats`* imagines a single language, single platform, single os, single character encoding world 00:11:39 joshe: Random corruption post-GC, maybe? 00:11:58 when you don't need to do NxNxN work, though it doesn't seem fun 00:11:59 stassats`: One world, one web, one program? 00:12:36 *urandom__* dreams about modern lisp-maschines 00:12:41 nyef: perhaps, I don't remember 00:13:17 urandom__: Intel CPUs seem quite modern 00:13:18 I have a half-complete ccl port to openbsd somewhere too 00:13:55 intel? x86 is crap 00:14:04 fast crap, though. 00:14:07 the beauty of lisp-machines isn't in hardware 00:14:35 it just happened that general purpose hardware wasn't quite advanced back in the day 00:14:44 urandom__: well, I think CLers would prefer a language with arrays (as Xach pointed out in the reddit thread) and lots of folks like CLOS which I assume Arc does not have since pg is not one of them. 00:15:16 x86 is a crappy isa, but there are brilliant implementations. 00:15:20 hm, run-sbcl.sh is broken on darwin 00:16:15 x86 is good enough, "the perfect is the enemy of the good" 00:16:37 ah, my sunos/freebsd patch fixes it 00:16:43 kroger [~user@189.115.244.221.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:16:43 i dont care about performance of x86, i want simplicity and awesomeness and fun 00:17:15 _hrrld [62f57ad2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.245.122.210] has joined #lisp 00:17:28 programming for x86 isnt really fun, at least at low level 00:17:33 <_hrrld> is defmacro typically implemented as a macro, or a special form? 00:17:43 clhs defmacro 00:17:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm 00:17:49 hrrld: ^ 00:18:51 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:20 gigamonkey well lack of arrays does really speak against Arc, is there a reason for it, will they be added later? 00:19:26 though standard macros can be implemented as special operators 00:19:40 and vice versa 00:20:11 I kind of feel a little of PG, he gets a lot of stick, and I think this comes through a little in peoples appraisal of Arc 00:20:36 I'm not drawn to Arc though personally 00:20:36 <_hrrld> adeht: That was enlightening, if dense. 00:20:50 <_hrrld> stassats`: What do you mean by "special operators" ? 00:20:56 nyef: fyi, bsd/darwin ct/ctr patch sent to sbcl-devel 00:21:08 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:21:13 hehe s/of/for 00:21:23 _hrrld: car of a special form 00:21:24 I'm not feeling PG 00:22:10 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:22:15 <_hrrld> stassats`: Oh, I see. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you. 00:22:27 joshe: Cool, thanks. 00:22:44 _hrrld: and that's what you incorrectly identified as a special form 00:23:30 <_hrrld> stassats`: Indeed, I've been conflating the idea of a special form with a special operator. 00:23:39 _hrrld: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#special_form 00:24:47 its really ridiculous to bitch at Arc cause it lacks currently unicode, i cant believe people are doingt that 00:24:48 <_hrrld> stassats`: The idea of a macro as an installable special operator is interesting, I'll need to ponder that. 00:25:23 installable? 00:25:46 <_hrrld> stassats`: meaning, defined at runtime by the user. 00:26:02 <_hrrld> stassats`: my other special operators are hard-coded into the evaluator. 00:27:43 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:27:46 macros can't modify the lexical environment and control-flow 00:27:55 but they can employ other special operators to do that 00:28:24 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has left #lisp 00:28:45 for example, LET, which is a special operator, can be implemented in terms of LAMBDA 00:28:47 <_hrrld> Though, it seems that defining a macro modifies the lexcial environment. 00:29:11 stassats: not really 00:29:27 Heh. I'm reminded of the brain-twisting epiphany I got when I realized how Smalltalk boolean objects worked with respect to method dispatch. 00:29:29 at least not in CL :) 00:29:34 adeht: you mean call-arguments-limit? 00:29:46 stassats: no, I mean &rest, &key, etc. as parameter names ;) 00:29:53 *variable names 00:31:43 well, you'd have to show some ingenuity 00:31:59 *nyef* sighs. 00:32:00 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:11 well, run-program.impure seems to have hung, but that's probably not the bug we're looking for 00:32:34 Build-test scripts tend to work better if you remember to actually check out the commits you want to test. 00:33:11 -!- _hrrld [62f57ad2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.245.122.210] has quit [Quit: thanks. (:] 00:34:09 adeht: ((lambda (&key ((:optional &optional) nil)) &optional) :optional 10) 00:34:16 => 10 00:36:48 hmm looks plausible but are you sure it's equivalent (ordering etc.)? 00:38:31 should be 00:39:09 just need to place optional arguments in the right order 00:41:32 nice 00:43:01 -!- Spewns1 [~jake@97-92-216-245.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:44:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has left #lisp 00:45:33 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:46:07 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CADB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:49:04 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:07 Where can I find SICP for common lisp again? 00:50:36 -!- jch [~jch@94.254.224.100] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:52:08 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has joined #lisp 00:54:19 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:32 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:30 [01:09] Indeed: http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ 00:56:30 00:57:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-64-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:59:19 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-6.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:07:57 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:32 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:08:35 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:04 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14:10 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 01:15:29 -!- ][V][ICHAEL [~user@207.178.208.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:48 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 01:16:25 anybody have experience debugging memory faults that occur when calling code through CFFI? SBCL's stack trace is garbage, and I don't know how to debug what'g going wrong in the C library 01:16:45 I think the c lib is built with -O2 if it makes any difference 01:16:49 though I can rebuild it 01:17:48 You could try using gdb 01:18:08 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:32 <_3b`> yeah, attach with gdb and ask it what is at the foreign addresses 01:19:44 TR2N [email@89-180-152-111.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 01:23:09 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:23:59 sweet i didn't realize you could attach to external processes 01:25:32 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:03 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:27:06 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.54.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:39 Intensity [VmQThPz4yj@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 01:28:46 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:43 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-131.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:31:51 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:34:33 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has joined #lisp 01:37:11 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A65D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:01 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has joined #lisp 01:46:04 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:51:40 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:57 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.122] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:54:47 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:51 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:17 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:43 ficthe [~cutintape@unaffiliated/ficthe] has joined #lisp 02:01:33 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:57 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 02:04:50 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:21 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-132-122-162.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:07 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:10:16 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:13:10 Does anyone else remember McCarthy saying someting at one of the ILCs about how he felt CL was holding back Lisp generally? 02:13:12 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:13:50 gigamonkey: How's it going? 02:15:41 Hrm. Sounds more like Chuck Moore talking about Forth. 02:16:11 demopig: good. Right now I'm working on my ILC talx. 02:16:12 talk. 02:16:37 *nyef* wonders if Alan Kay ever griped in such a way about the Smalltalk standard? 02:17:10 -!- Soulman2 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:17:54 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 02:18:02 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@111.sub-97-180-38.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:13 nyef: well, I think Kay wasn't entirely pleased with the direction Smalltalk went around Smalltalk-80 02:19:26 well, I have to partially agree, but only partially... there are enough tools to pull it forward, but then you reach the wall of propagating that... GHC has it much easier (and still accepts Haskell 98 stuff, iirc) 02:20:47 gigamonkey: in what way would CL be holding the lisp world back? 02:21:36 OliverUv_: to the extent that I recall his comments correctly, I think the basic point was that CL was good enough that nobody was working on new ideas. 02:21:49 Somewhat like Alan Kay's remarks that Lisp and Smalltalk eat their young. 02:22:05 where "good enough" could also be phrased "so good" 02:22:12 OliverUv_: well, when you compare the rate of change that happens in other languages (look at Haskell), then compare it with amount of *agreed upon* amount of new things coming to CL ;D 02:24:35 heh yeha ok 02:24:49 And yet, sometimes the CL community adopts stuff *fast*. Look at ASDF. 02:25:12 and yet ASDF feels so ad-hoc 02:25:20 everything in the CL world feels so ad-hoc 02:25:49 Some things seem to be well-put-together, but yeah, a lot of stuff seems ad-hoc. 02:26:00 OliverUv_: grab mopintro and tell us how soon you decide that you should write the next great ORM... 02:26:18 *p_l* counted less than 12h for himself 02:26:34 ephcon_ [~ephcon@cpe-72-227-143-54.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:47 i can decide more things faster! 02:26:51 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-1-210.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:59 mopintro.ps ? 02:27:50 OliverUv_: yeah 02:28:16 stassats`: I don't recall exactly... In reality it was probably <3h from when I picked it :D 02:29:27 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:29:40 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.174.194] has joined #lisp 02:30:40 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:52 heh 02:34:23 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:35:20 [OFFTOPIC]: in graph theory, what is the term used to describe the connectivity (neigbours count) of a vertex? 02:35:34 degree? 02:36:00 I believe it is degree, yeah 02:36:03 -!- ephcon_ [~ephcon@cpe-72-227-143-54.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:36:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_(graph_theory) 02:36:13 my discrete math books are on the other side of the world ;_; 02:36:15 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:36:23 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.clojure.user/34269 02:36:24 nice 02:37:11 yeah, it is degree 02:37:13 thanks :) 02:37:44 Aah, who here was working on Quicklisp again? The quicklisp blog isn't on Planet Lisp. It should be. 02:38:03 ah, xach 02:38:05 irony of ironies! 02:38:11 i'll remind him when he wakes up 02:38:40 minion: memo xach you should put the quicklisp blog on planet lisp 02:38:41 lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 02:38:57 minion, help leaving memos 02:38:58 minion: help memo 02:38:58 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 02:39:20 minion: memo for xach: you should get the quicklisp blog on planet lisp 02:39:20 Remembered. I'll tell xach when he/she/it next speaks. 02:39:47 that'd be shameless self-promotion 02:39:51 Is Quicklisp one of those incredibly promising new designs that will definitely be a suitable replacement for Common Lisp as a heavy duty development platform with low startup and runtime overheads? 02:40:31 no 02:40:38 Makoryu: Quicklisp is not a replacement for Common Lisp. 02:40:43 It makes using Common Lisp easier. 02:40:55 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:41:39 This is probably for the best, because there are way too many lisps like what I just described and it gets confusing 02:42:13 gigamonkey: you said something about CL stopping Lisp from improvement? :D 02:42:23 I can only think of three that could be taken semi-seriously. 02:42:28 and only one that is 'serious' 02:44:31 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.174.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:44:46 sykopomp: Oh? 02:45:36 I am currently working in Java to re-implement an algorithm I prototyped in lisp. If I replace all of the required curly-braces and semicolons in Java with parens it turns out that the Java program has more parens than the lisp program. The lisp program is 20 lines, the Java program has crossed 100 lines and is still growing. <--- hehehehehe 02:46:56 p_l: It'd be easier to take the prototype and ABCL and call it done, wouldn't it? 02:48:32 christoph_debian [christoph@sf-ogame.de] has joined #lisp 02:49:23 nyef: probably someone who shouldn't is reading the source and calling the shots 02:50:29 Oh nasty. In MacLisp you used CDR to get the PLIST of a symbol. 02:50:41 *p_l* had such an issue during last two years of studies... he could easily write the necessary task in clojure in much cleaner and saner way. Working in Java ended causing really weird method names that got bad comments from professors xD 02:51:15 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 02:51:28 gigamonkey: Makes sense to me, given where the plist of NIL is stored in SBCL... 02:52:04 So you special case things so (cdr nil) => nil? 02:52:19 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.254.201] has joined #lisp 02:52:22 gigamonkey: and CAR contains list of varius bindings? 02:52:33 Yeah, the value and hash slots of nil-the-symbol are the car and cdr slots of nil-the-cons. 02:53:19 nil, the impersonator 02:53:30 nil-the-symbol is allocated one word off the usual allocation granularity, and then games get played with lowtags... 02:53:46 Makes symbol access a hair slower, but list access faster. 02:55:05 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-114-32.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:56:44 I think if some of these bright folks who want to design a new Lisp really wanted to do something interesting, they'd go back and explore further the paths Interlisp was heading down 02:57:22 *p_l* recalls seeing an Interlisp manual in library 02:58:23 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-6-86.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:56 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:02:46 -!- toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:06:39 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-72-142.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:12:25 sykopomp: What new Lisp dialects did you consider serious? 03:13:01 Okay, on the last build, and everything looks good... and the last build is actually one of those "no way it could fail" ones... 03:13:07 schauerlich [~shower@unaffiliated/schauerlich] has joined #lisp 03:15:55 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-102-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:05 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-235-209.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:31 Hmmm. According to the Garbriel and Steele Evolution of Lisp paper, SETF is an abbreviation of SETFQ where the FQ stood for "quote the function". 03:19:23 ... I thought it was a -raven-, not a function? 03:19:28 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:27 -!- drwho [~drwho@184.77.143.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:20:37 a "raven"? 03:21:25 nevermore? 03:21:40 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as CheebaHawk 03:21:58 heh 03:22:05 Ah. 03:22:25 _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has joined #lisp 03:23:24 nyef: U MENA QUOTSE 03:26:35 gigamonkey: I see there's some Interlisp-VAX documentation floating around online 03:27:01 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:27:03 Did you mean a more recent lisp that just happened to have the same name? 03:27:45 Makoryu: nope, the old one. Which basically lost out to MacLisp when Common Lisp was created. 03:27:53 Ah 03:29:13 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:22 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:31:32 CONS should take more arguments. Preferably 4. 03:32:08 For indicating mutability of the cells, perhaps? 03:32:29 just to go back to the roots 03:32:37 adeht: ? 03:32:58 p_l: I read not long ago that (i) CONS predates Lisp and (ii) it took 4 arguments 03:34:11 What would you do with the prefix and the tag? 03:34:45 http://www.artinfo-musinfo.org/scans/lb/lb3p14.pdf 03:35:33 that reminded me of Pitman's reference to HUNKs 03:36:10 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:28 Zhivago: don't you know CPR can save lives? 03:40:09 -!- ficthe [~cutintape@unaffiliated/ficthe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42:10 CPR? 03:42:25 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-6-86.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:15 -!- [mzm] [~ziggy@de1-as20249.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:45:23 marioxcc: from that paper adeht just linked to. 03:46:13 On the IBM-704 in addition to the well-known CAR and CDR there were also CTR and CPR 03:47:31 oh 03:47:33 haha, ok 03:49:36 ... Joy. sb-bsd-sockets is failing tests on my machine again. 03:49:49 ... because the loopback interface got unconfigured again. 03:50:03 Oh well, I'll fix it later maybe. 03:50:29 what did you do to get lo unconfigured? 03:50:41 I rebooted. 03:50:46 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:50:50 Before that, I think it might have been a kernel upgrade. 03:51:00 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-179-136.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:45 Given that it took 10 days for me to notice, I don't think it's a huge deal, you know? 03:52:23 Anyway, I'm tired, and I'm going to bed. 03:52:26 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all] 03:52:42 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fkiuuknunlvherxe] has joined #lisp 03:53:53 Okay, is this a joke. Gabriel and JonL White are talking about the NIL implementation. And then they go talk to a guy named Nils Nilsson! 03:54:00 Facemunch [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:13 poor guy XD 03:54:59 famous AI guy 03:57:43 -!- Facemunch [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:54 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:13:05 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:25 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-179-136.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 04:18:57 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:32 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-235-209.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:42 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-235-209.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:23:42 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 04:27:12 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:30:46 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 04:32:03 Good morning! 04:32:22 morning 04:32:40 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:32:47 morning... 04:33:09 good morning 04:33:14 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-235-209.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:33:31 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:34:09 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-235-209.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:33 pardon my unending ignorance, have we ever discovered dialects of lisp not depending on garbage collection ? 04:35:06 billitch: No person I know would consider such a thing a dialect of Lisp. 04:35:27 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-72-142.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:48 sub-dialect, then ? 04:36:31 You could always make a C-like language with a lispy syntax 04:36:37 maybe it's not lisp then... =) 04:36:45 billitch: *sigh*, you would have to define what dialect or sub-dialect means. Otherwise, we get into futile discussions whether this or that is considered to be "a Lisp". 04:36:55 billitch: BitC may be of interest. 04:37:04 Makoryu: Or, since sub-dialect has not beed defined, I vote for C. 04:37:12 (let ((x 'int 5) (y 'double)) (bluh x y)) 04:37:13 billitch: I'm not sure why you'd want a language to not have GC, though. 04:37:38 Ralith: BitC has a very conventional syntax now 04:37:48 That was always the plan, by the way 04:37:49 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:38:25 Makoryu: they finally got around to that, hm? 04:38:29 Yes 04:38:42 I was under the impression it was mostly dead before that ever got acted on 04:38:55 *Ralith* afk 04:39:03 they knew the value of gc even back in those early days, with hardware they had.. no gc?? srsly? :) 04:39:08 Ralith: Well it's currently un-re-non-dead 04:39:25 billitch: regarding the original question - IBM-704 LISP 04:39:32 at least one of early iteration 04:39:36 *iterations 04:39:49 Ralith: thanks for the pointer. i'm just wondering, and also having all threads stopped is annoying sometimes when you try to avoid latency 04:40:01 How about Lisp on the Symbolics 3600. No GC for quite a while, according to the Gabriel and Steele paper I just happen to be reading. 04:40:19 some iterations later they got a two space copying collector which used tape 04:40:26 (Though there was a way to swap your program to disk which is in effect a very slow stop-and-copy GC.) 04:40:35 billitch: That's a result of the way it was implemented. There are real-time GCs that don't have to stop the threads. 04:41:11 GC issues mainly come back to the "let's shove everything into one space" problem. 04:41:12 gigamonkey: I recall it might be related to original CADR GC issues. Apparently working with GC off waiting for the imminent crash was common. 04:41:54 beach: are there any free implementation of such beasts ? 04:42:06 billitch: I don't think so. 04:42:32 bill: See incremental gc algorithms -- there should be a couple around. 04:42:36 billitch: you might look at things like the Jikes Research VM. 04:42:50 It may or may not have such a GC. 04:43:26 You make the allocator do sufficient work to collect as much space as it is allocating, amortized. 04:43:45 Jikes RVM look beasty indeed 04:43:51 LispWorks supposedly has a realtime Lisp, but it's not exactly CL and isn't normally available. 04:44:34 benny [~user@i577A7FD9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:04 Zhivago: incremental GC like in sbcl/x86 ? 04:45:46 um, sbcl doesn't have incremental GC, unless some breakthrough happened recently 04:46:18 i thought so, i must be mixing up 04:46:37 SBCL/x86 and amd64 uses generational GC 04:46:51 so that's the right word for it 04:46:54 conservative, generational, but still "stop the world" GC 04:47:26 supposedly the reason why Allegro still hasn't got proper native threads is because they want to "get it right" 04:47:44 billitch: there's been a lot of work on fancy GC in the Java world. 04:48:18 Java got a lot of GC work for the simple reason that they have enough funds available to pour into it to make anything move fast :) 04:48:46 gigamonkey: yes but this starts to feel much farther from lisp =) 04:49:24 actually maybe my wondering is deeper : why i cant just describe stack-based programs with symbolic expressions, and why would it seem so useless that nobody cares to do it ? 04:49:37 I recall some people stating that the GC in Sun's JVM7 was one of the rare pieces of actual original new GC work 04:50:06 billitch: in a way, Chicken Scheme does that partially XD 04:51:18 (it runs GC when it reaches stack limit) 04:51:28 billitch: It gets so tiresome to replace (f (g x)) by (let* ((temp1 (g x)) (temp2 (f temp1)) (free temp1) temp2)) 04:53:04 billitch: You look at a program like that and ask yourself what it's doing, and the answer invariably is "it is doing memory management", in other words, the only thing you don't care about, and certainly not the "business logic" of the program. Thus GC is necessary for writing understandable and maintainable code. 04:54:23 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-235-209.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:55:01 beach: i guess there are more complex examples but.. (defmacro with-stack-vars ((&rest bindings) &body body) ...) 04:55:54 and i guess with-stack-vars could also be named slet for conciseness 04:56:57 but maybe i should just learn stack based langages 04:57:44 What do you mean by "stack based" and what does it have to do with GC? 04:58:29 Hurrah for linear combinators. 04:58:31 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 05:01:46 beach: If you know the type of every function, or if you've got uniform representation of some sort, you wouldn't need that level of manual temporary variable management 05:01:54 beach: isn't gc only about collecting in the heap ? 05:02:58 billitch: What do you put on the stack? Can you no longer have pointers in the language? So no lists, no trees? Otherwise, you end up with a language that kan handle only small numbers. 05:03:18 Makoryu: Can you elaborate? 05:04:26 the stack is setf-able memory too, you can write anything you want in it, if you dont use too much 05:05:27 but indeed you will have to go in great length decribing the amounts of memory for each stack frame 05:05:33 So you do all the allocation on the stack and nothing a function ever allocates can survive its invocation. So things like (make-tree x) is not possible? 05:06:19 billitch: I am afraid such a language would be quite useless. 05:07:12 beach: well either x is already allocated enough space or #'make-tree gives enough info to the compiler so it knows where to put the result 05:07:22 or how much place is needed 05:07:31 place/memory 05:08:06 the ML way is the latter 05:08:08 billitch: I think the point is you can't write functions like (defun foo () (make-tree x)) because the value allocated by make-tree is garbage as soon as foo returns. 05:08:35 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:06 yes, static types... not very lispy 05:09:30 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:44 billitch: why not lispy? 05:10:05 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:10:25 Because it goes too too far from the archetypal Lisp 05:10:32 Or maybe not too far enough 05:10:35 It's unclear. 05:10:45 p_l: actually i don't know, i wish there was a way to describe them 05:11:25 beach: I'm not sure any explanation I give will come out very lucid at all right now. Blame alcohol! 05:11:27 Uh, oh, the point I predicted has happened. We are discussing that is lispy, without definining what it means. 05:11:43 Was there ever a good definition anyway? 05:11:47 I think there never will be. 05:11:49 Makoryu: No problem. We'll do it some other time. 05:12:04 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-72-142.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:12:07 Makoryu: Which is why such discussions are futile. 05:12:14 Lispy means that it accords with my prejudices -- it is essentially a term of propaganda. 05:13:03 beach: Anyway my actual point was going to be that automatic stack management of temporary variables is hardly unprecedented in (statically typed) languages with manual memory management 05:13:50 In fact it was the original feature that made FORTRAN appealing, before any control structure more expressive than GOTO was introduced 05:14:05 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:14:06 gigamonkey: but we could write (defun foo (x) (make-tree x)) where x is stack-allocated with apropriate size 05:14:33 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128011023.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:14:34 and type inference could let the compiler find this size 05:14:35 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-93-203.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:14:48 bill: See dynamic-extent declaration. 05:14:53 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128011023.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:12 beach: And even if you were only compiling down to C, you could do neat tricks like expressing multiple return values as out variables 05:15:31 That is, pointers into the stack that you would pass as extra arguments into the called function 05:15:43 billitch: I'm assuming MAKE-TREE needs to allocate some memory. Simpler example: (defun foo (x) (cons x x)) 05:15:45 And it would assign to those pointers rather than actually returning shit 05:16:43 Makoryu: well, that would mean you're passing pointers to preallocated space as arguments to the function... 05:16:49 Makoryu: Consider (defun foo (x) (funcall x)) and the effect upon multiple value returns. 05:16:57 unless, of course, you're willing to break ABI of possibly 99% of architectures 05:17:22 (MMIX is one of the few that explicitly support multiple return values) 05:17:27 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:28 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-72-142.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:17:30 Zhivago: These would be hidden extra arguments 05:17:46 How would they find their way into the appropriate funcall? 05:17:52 Zhivago: Visible only to the compiler rather than the language itself 05:17:53 Magic 05:17:55 I don't know 05:17:58 Type inference 05:18:05 Same thing as magic 05:18:13 But we're passing a dynamically determined function ... 05:18:19 PCHOOOOO 05:18:19 gigamonkey: then the compiler must know where to put the result of (cons x x) on the stack before calling it 05:18:36 Makoryu: OCaml has good magic 05:18:47 Zhivago: I think in a language with manual management of, like, various shit... 05:19:03 Zhivago: Well, in any case this isn't really compatible with dynamic typing 05:19:28 but very unpleasant syntax 05:19:43 billitch: btw, if you dig enough in Lisp history, you can encounter a special form known as ERALIS 05:19:55 Zhivago: You would surely have to know, at compile time, the stack effects of foo, and you would have to be able to compare them to those of x 05:20:29 Well, it's more that foo would need to emulate the effects of x. 05:20:36 not sure if PDP-1 LISP still had it, though (which is the oldest implementation I know how to reasonably find and run) 05:21:09 Zhivago: Express it as part of the type signature as understood by the compiler. 05:21:11 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-155-227.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:22:01 Ok, in which case your options for late binding are severely curtailed. 05:23:03 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-93-203.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:23:20 Zhivago: They already are regardless, if we're discussing manual memory management 05:24:07 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:24:32 I think a fully dynamically typed language with manual memory management would be crazy, impossible, and/or so unexpressive as to be fairly useless 05:25:24 billitch: okay. I've lost track of what we're talking about now. Time for bed I think. ;-) 05:25:27 Goodnight. 05:25:32 Happy coma 05:26:30 gigamonkey: happy garbage collection cycle ;) 05:27:23 Makoryu: i think the point was to avoid memory management, to the point where no gc is needed 05:27:32 Zhivago: Hey, if CL never got another revision to the standard, would you be comfortable with Clojure replacing it as the dominant Lisp? 05:27:37 billitch: *cycles 05:28:19 makoryu: Um. I don't know. Probably. 05:28:24 p_l: yes, unless he sleeps by 20 min increments 05:29:37 billitch: There are ML dialects with insane space bat versions of escape analysis, where you write as if there were a GC, but the compiler analyzes the cose and writes all the manual allocation for you 05:29:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:07 billitch: So this can be done, but I am pretty sure you need to know a lot about the program at compile time in order to do it 05:30:13 Hence, static typing 05:30:26 The main problem with clojure as I see it is that it is too tightly wedded to its java environment. 05:30:26 Zhivago: So, even if you were writing compilers and such? 05:30:40 Yes, that's the main complaint about it I see all the time 05:30:41 But it could be divorced with sufficient effort. 05:30:48 Makoryu: sounds awesomely unavailable 05:30:55 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:31:30 I'd probably prefer to see Shen succeed, or at least its kernel language. 05:31:36 Shen? 05:31:48 The CL divorced version of Qi. 05:32:09 Zhivago: is it really different from Qi ? 05:32:15 Ohhh 05:32:26 I never liked Qi 05:32:35 i have to look into shen now. 05:32:37 Maybe this is because the dude wrote all his specifications in MS Word 05:32:48 For some reason that drove me crazy 05:33:04 billitch: the funny thing is how closely "GC" metaphor fits sleep.. 05:33:13 "Shen is virtually the same as Qi. It is Qi conceptually seperated and liberated from the bonds of running only in Common Lisp." 05:33:17 ^ For billitch 05:33:25 including the issues of asynchronous signal interrupting GC 05:33:33 http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/klambda.htm <- From here 05:35:54 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-238.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:23 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:40:16 p_l: (yes, and how the dreams and the way our brain abstracts things fits lambda calculus somewhat) 05:40:54 p_l: and i hope you don't get too much interrupts ! 05:41:21 Makoryu: if i understand correctly from it's author, Shen is parts of Qi written in Qi and prolog ? 05:41:31 ¯\O_o/¯ 05:41:54 I literally first heard about it ten minutes ago 05:41:59 I don't know much about it. 05:44:05 Shen is Qi rewritten with a specific set of primitives rather than randomly using CL. 05:44:17 ok, the blog is insightful 05:47:14 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:48:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:49:17 NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 05:53:39 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-155-227.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:56 So, I'm aware that there's probably nobody intimately familiar with this lib here, but just in case: I'm using cl-prevalence (or, more accurately, a wrapper around it from weblocks, but it's a light wrapper) 06:02:22 I'm getting: 06:02:23 There is no applicable method for the generic function # when called with arguments (# # #). [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 06:02:29 when trying to save a store. 06:02:58 What is a unix namestring? 06:10:25 Looks like you're trying to store functions ... 06:19:46 -!- schauerlich [~shower@unaffiliated/schauerlich] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:04 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:35 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:33 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:21:40 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:42 Zhivago: *OH*. 06:22:46 Zhivago: How did you tell that? 06:23:25 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:30 Wait, no, I don't think I am. 06:26:44 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:28:28 rlpowell: why is serialize-xml-internal being passed a function, then? 06:30:43 I don't know. I don't know what # or where it came from or what it does. 06:31:02 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:05 I didn't call S-SERIALIZATION::SERIALIZE-XML-INTERNAL ; it's way down the stack. 06:31:17 well, I have no idea what the semantics of that lib are, but researching how those values got to be there may help resolve this. 06:31:36 also working out exactly what that function is supposed to take 06:31:56 What I'm actually calling is (snapshot *worlds*) 06:32:08 Which is exactly right; (snapshot *players*) works fine. 06:33:06 Ralith: I don't know it either, which is why I thought I'd check in case someone on did. :) 06:34:21 I have a suspicion now, though. 06:35:09 well, work out what's different in the values of those two, then :P 06:53:31 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-1-210.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 06:54:32 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:05 timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:31 are hunchentoot's "continuations" the same what other languages (erlang) call "light processes" or (node.js) "asynchronous programming"? 07:00:07 hunchentoot implements continuations somewhere? 07:01:11 and btw, no, continuations in lisp (and functional langauges altogether) usually mean something different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation 07:01:22 it can be however used to implement lightweight threading 07:01:59 erlang is slightly different case because it explicitly uses a shared-nothing architecture, so its processes really don't look like threads 07:02:20 (as for async examples, VMS is great source - it has *NO* synchronous I/O) 07:02:59 -!- kroger [~user@189.115.244.221.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:21 -!- ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:05:26 what is VMS? 07:05:32 akamaus [~maus@94.231.115.95] has joined #lisp 07:05:38 minion, tell me about VMS 07:05:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``VMS''. 07:07:08 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-238.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 07:07:50 Virtual Memory System, an Operating System produced by DEC for VAX, later for Alpha and now IA-64, still available from HP for all three supported architectures (though VAX isn't supported in new versions) 07:08:16 you could say that the API of the OS is based around async. interfaces 07:08:35 I see 07:09:24 (C std. library of most compilers for VMS simply calls a "wait for event" function to simulate sync. IO) 07:13:41 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-195-55.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:14 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:14:39 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:15:03 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 07:18:59 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:20:09 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:23:00 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:23:02 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:26:22 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-83.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:26:37 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fkiuuknunlvherxe] has left #lisp 07:29:47 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:30:15 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest82131 07:31:00 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:31:01 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 07:31:12 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 07:31:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 07:31:40 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:12 eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 07:42:51 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:58:32 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:17 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 08:08:51 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:11:54 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 08:29:49 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:30:16 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:32:13 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:35:28 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.154.117] has joined #lisp 08:35:36 eugu [~eugu@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 08:37:44 tcr [~tcr@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:37:49 xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-166-88.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:43:14 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-166-88.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:43:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-166-88.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:43:17 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 08:43:23 lnostdal-android [50cb8c7b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.203.140.123] has joined #lisp 08:45:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-166-88.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 08:45:16 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-166-88.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:45:18 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 08:47:16 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 08:51:00 Anyone here from London? 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hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-179-136.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:46:06 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:15 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-14-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:12 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.239] has joined #lisp 12:52:38 Has anyone used the cffi that comes with gpgme? 12:54:07 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D13B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:00 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-64-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:16 herbieB: that sounds interesting. where can i see more about that? 13:00:17 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:17 Xach, memo from OliverUv_: you should get the quicklisp blog on planet lisp 13:00:53 Xach: Uhm, it just comes with the standard gpgme download 13:01:13 Xach: Only it looks somewhat incomplete, or I am just failing in some way 13:01:55 Xach: (or at least, when I did USE="common-lisp" emerge gpgme, it came with) 13:02:38 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Meh.] 13:04:03 Ahhhh, it looks like they call "finalize" thinking it'll just be there, because it's written to be used in clisp 13:04:06 Why does this not surprise me? 13:04:49 because you're not easily surprised? 13:04:58 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:05:11 -!- OliverUv_ is now known as OliverUv 13:05:37 No, that's not it :P 13:09:28 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.140.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:14:10 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:17:07 Maybe they want a kind soul to fix it for whatever implementation they use? :) 13:17:20 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has joined #lisp 13:17:34 They should probably put some documentation in it for said kind soul to figure out how the hell to use it 13:22:13 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:23:42 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 13:27:10 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:26 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has joined #lisp 13:27:53 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27:56 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has joined #lisp 13:27:57 hoy 13:28:12 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:20 G'morning all. 13:28:38 is there some useful code for experimenting with combinatory logic? 13:29:47 e.g. there could be a number of predefined combinators, some predefined simplification rules, a simplifier 13:29:48 hi nyef 13:30:08 etc. 13:31:26 a transformation from lambda calculus expressions to combinatory logic expressions maybe... 13:31:31 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:34:50 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:36:58 tcr [~tcr@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:43:39 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 13:44:43 I hereby deem the gpgme cffi library fail 13:45:51 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:45:55 *nyef* hopes he didn't just screw up with committing to SBCL. 13:46:35 you're certainly making it a much more interesting month to be release manager :-) 13:46:42 Heh. 13:46:56 Okay, that's today's commits done. 13:47:37 19 left after this, plus one for fixing the documentation. 13:48:04 thank you :-) 13:48:15 You're welcome. 13:48:16 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 13:49:16 My latest trick is a script for taking a series of git commits one by one, exporting them to CVS, doing the version-number dance, and committing to CVS. 13:50:37 So I can just say "../export.sh master HEAD", and it just commits the entire current branch. 13:50:46 (Okay, that's not the actual script name.) 13:50:57 export is taken 13:50:57 No error checking, unfortunately. 13:51:03 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51:21 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:25 OliverUv: Wouldn't matter if you use a pathname, would it? 13:52:00 I have git sbcl-export, but it doesn't commit automatically because I rarely do NEWS updates in my local git branches 13:52:45 nyef: ah you're right, but I've got my scripts in ~/bin, which is on my path 13:53:08 ~/bin being a symlink to a dropbox folder i'm using on many different computers 13:53:24 Krystof: I didn't used to do NEWS updates in my local branches, but I've taken to creating for-commit branches with NEWS updates and whatnot. 13:53:31 (dropbox automatically versions and backs up my files, which is sweet) 13:53:57 but I can't use dropbox on servers where others are already using it, because it is one-account-per-computer, for some reason 13:58:41 nyef: I'm impressed 14:00:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-166-88.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:01:10 i need to learn git 14:01:31 I also have a script that takes a range of commits and does a build and smoke-test (uses run-sbcl.sh to make sure that sbcl built, no real test beyond that). 14:01:41 Stops with a message after the first failed build. 14:02:48 All the cool guys lisp. 14:03:08 Anyway, everything left in my current queue is PPC stuff... And one minor refactoring in the compiler, of the sort that simply can't fail. 14:03:52 nyef: How did sbcl go? 14:03:59 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:44 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:09:55 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:10:39 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:22 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:14:34 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:14:55 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:34 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:17:28 vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has joined #lisp 14:18:35 -!- demopig [~demopig@unaffiliated/demopig] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:20:34 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 14:22:13 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:23:11 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:27 -!- Guest82131 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:33:00 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:42 -!- toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:46:28 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:05 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B62E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:16 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-32.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:01:42 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:03:00 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:42 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:07:29 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:44 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:12:16 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:19:52 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:21:01 Uh-oh. 15:21:22 Just had to abort my commit script because it asked for my sourceforge password... after about three commits. 15:23:26 Okay, that's six more patches down. 15:27:04 demopig [~demopig@unaffiliated/demopig] has joined #lisp 15:28:43 -!- vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has left #lisp 15:32:54 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 15:36:14 Luke [~Luke1@99.23.130.220] has joined #lisp 15:39:38 binarin [~user@epoint.ru] has joined #lisp 15:40:15 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.196.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41:12 -!- Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 15:41:30 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:49:19 -!- demopig [~demopig@unaffiliated/demopig] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:51:16 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:51:35 schauerlich [~shower@unaffiliated/schauerlich] has joined #lisp 15:57:49 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:00 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-217-166.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:01:36 anyone know a way i can write an sdl windows contents out as a png? 16:02:48 derrida: I would guess there's a built-in way, but if there's a way to get the pixel sample values, you could stuff them into ZPNG, a CL PNG writing library. 16:03:27 cool, i'll dig a little harder in the lb-sdl docs and check that out 16:03:57 navigator [~navigator@p5489428D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:21 Xach: thanks ;) 16:06:47 Xach: hehe, i totally overlooked (sdl:save-image ..) which will get me a bmp anyway 16:07:27 -!- TomJ [~tomj@78.146.190.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:12:32 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-179-161.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:39 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:59 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:06 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:15 lispm [~lispm@d221169.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:50 avallark [~user@59.93.5.189] has joined #lisp 16:27:03 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 16:27:10 hello 16:29:40 -!- lispm [~lispm@d221169.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:56 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 -!- zbigniew is now known as eliza` 16:31:29 -!- eliza` is now known as zbigniew 16:32:48 ost: hello :) 16:36:55 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.5.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:37 avallark [~user@59.93.5.189] has joined #lisp 16:38:45 I *win*. CLIM3 has working layout panes: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/clim3.png 16:39:34 sweeeet 16:39:46 looking good 16:39:57 beach: Congratulations. 16:40:07 yes, grats :) 16:40:07 beach: where can I read about what's new in clim3? :D 16:40:42 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-32.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 16:42:19 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:34 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.5.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:47 avallark [~user@59.93.5.189] has joined #lisp 16:45:13 beach, it looks nice! 16:45:14 sykopomp: You can't quite yet. 16:45:45 OliverUv, nyef, hargettp Adlai: Thanks! 16:45:50 each time I poke my head in here (every week or few) there's something new on clim3.png :) 16:46:51 -!- lightbulb [~null@ppp-70-128-101-251.dsl.tulsok.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:47:46 Adlai: I spend about two days per week on it at the moment. 16:47:54 beach: very nice! 16:48:11 drewc: Thanks! 16:49:57 beach, maybe it's just my skewed perspective that makes progress look fast, but it's definitely there and steady 16:49:58 sykopomp: In essence: we merge sheets, output records, and designs. We make output recording mandatory, and we clearly define when the layout protocol is run on the hierarchy of "output records" is. We replace space/min/max by something called an elasticity function, which is both simpler and more powerful. 16:50:46 sykopomp: We simplify the options to layout panes because we have very rigid and very elastic panes that we can stick in a vbox or an hbox and get whatever layout we want. 16:50:48 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:07 ²/win 2 16:52:14 sykopomp: drawing primitives become creators of (device-independent) zones (which is the concept that replaces sheets/designs/output-records) and as with CLIM 2, they are "realized" when attached to a port. 16:52:33 Or perhaps safety in numbers ... 16:52:38 oops. 16:54:26 sykopomp: We get rid of mirrored sheets as a concept that application code needs. I hope to get rid of mediums as well, because many of the medium properties won't be needed. 16:54:55 beach: it sounds like a major overhaul :-o 16:55:23 sykopomp: zones have relative positions, so we don't need quadratic algorithms to manipulate the zone hierarchy. 16:55:29 sykopomp: Yes, that's the point. 16:55:45 it sounds easier to learn, too :D 16:56:12 sykopomp: yes thank god! 16:56:14 Yes, and easier to debug. 16:56:44 Actually, with somebody (thank you a lot, beach) to lead your way, CLIM2 isn't very difficult 16:56:54 but simplifying it is always very welcome 16:57:00 /quit 16:58:00 OliverUv: Most of it is fairly straightforward, and McCLIM works well for most of the standard stuff an application needs, but there are some dark corners, and we never did figure out how to avoid quadratic algorithms when we manipulate the hierarchy of output records. 16:58:14 I mean, if we compare CLIM2 to Java Swing, the latter is incredibly unexpressive but understanding the system is instant, as compared to CLIM2's somewhat linear learning curve 16:58:31 or perhaps CLIM2's curve is 2 16:58:43 2^n, while Java Swing is linear 16:59:14 Because in Java Swing everything is pretty much hierarchical building blocks, you just have to learn which blocks are available 17:01:32 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.5.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:01:55 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 17:05:34 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:08:37 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 17:08:38 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:10:01 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:44 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:10:49 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest14335 17:12:49 urandom_ [~user@p548A5B1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:36 mcore [~mux@230-144.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #lisp 17:16:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113292 anyone? :) 17:16:56 -!- Guest14335 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 17:17:23 ... don't use clisp? 17:19:01 -!- mcore [~mux@230-144.dsl.iskon.hr] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )] 17:19:42 TomJ [~tomj@78.146.190.175] has joined #lisp 17:19:49 nyef: I have sbcl/ccl already running, so that is an option. was playing with multiple lisp slime and this poped up.. 17:20:33 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93460.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:20:42 <_3b`> temporary-file-directory in emacs maybe? 17:20:48 s/poped/popped/ 17:23:27 _3b`: cheers, that did it :) 17:24:07 -!- TomJ [~tomj@78.146.190.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:28:51 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.177.76.140] has joined #lisp 17:29:39 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31:24 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:34:53 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:36:23 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:20 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-122.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:40:19 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:24 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw344124.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:22 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:46:01 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:14 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 17:51:57 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw344124.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:32 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:57:24 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 17:59:27 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:54 devon [~devon@xyzzy.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:01:53 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:03:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:26 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:17 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:29 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 18:28:00 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:28:44 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:31:07 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B62E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:07 ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:22 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:51 -!- Luke [~Luke1@99.23.130.220] has left #lisp 18:55:45 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:24 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 19:01:52 -!- binarin [~user@epoint.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02:29 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:04 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 19:07:05 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-189.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 19:09:12 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:09:31 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:03 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFEF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:30 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:16:48 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 19:22:31 I'm trying to debug a horrid memory fault error that's happening in foreign code. Should I be stopping the GC while calling into foreign code that mallocs/frees? 19:23:04 *_3b`* wouldn't expect that to be required 19:24:34 zbrown [455456b79f@unaffiliated/zbrown] has joined #lisp 19:25:43 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:26:40 I don't know any implementation of Common Lisp that has a parallel garbage collector. 19:28:36 how is that relevant to the question? 19:30:02 benny` [~user@i577A2240.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 Help! I have (socket-make-stream conn :element-type 'character :external-format :latin-1 ...) but still get error # (:EXTERNAL-FORMAT :UTF-8): the octet sequence (197 103) cannot be decoded. 19:31:06 -!- benny [~user@i577A7FD9.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:32:40 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-80-122.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 19:33:09 scratch that.. I'm looking at the wrong stream :) 19:33:37 segv [~mb@p4FC1ACB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:10 gonzojive: no 19:36:22 ... Damnit. I managed to break sb-concurrency again. :-( 19:37:53 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:13 Good evening everyone! 19:39:18 Hello beach. 19:42:39 Is it possible to read binary data using sb-ext:run-program? 19:43:46 lhz: It -should- be possible. 19:44:40 -!- navigator [~navigator@p5489428D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:41 lhz: yes 19:45:02 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:45:08 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:46:24 JohnnyL [~excellent@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:31 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:46:32 stassats`: when you call a subroutine, the caller is stopped automatically, until the subroutine returns. 19:47:02 stassats`: therefore when lisp calls a foreign function, no garbage collection may occur. The GC is automatically "stopped". 19:47:22 All this of course, unless the GC works in a separate threads. 19:48:22 thanks.. read-byte works, read-line doesn't 19:48:24 And then, when you -have- such a situation with the GC running in a separate thread, typically there's a way to tell the GC "don't move these objects". 19:48:32 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:37 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-195.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:40 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:49 lhz: There's an "of course read-line doesn't work there" moment available to you now: read-line is in terms of text streams. 19:49:06 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:49:08 nyef: I'd like to have one, but I still don't know any CL implementation having a GC running in a separate thread. 19:50:45 If you have multithreaded SBCL, the GC always runs in some thread, but not all of them at the same time. 19:50:47 lhz: what are you doing? by default sb-ext:process-output returns a bivalent stream 19:51:11 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:51:45 <_3b`> does sbcl stop foreign code during GC, or just stop the thread when it returns to lisp? 19:52:41 Hmmm aside from Emacs & VIM, does anyone know of a editor with strong support for scheme/lisp that is supported on Windows? It doesn't have to be free eiother :) 19:53:11 zbrown: I hear LispWorks has a good IDE. 19:53:12 zbrown: I think eclipse pretended to have CL support some time ago, with CUSP. 19:53:13 zbrown: I'm sure the PLT^H^H^HRacket people have something. 19:53:46 beach: ya I've been palyign with Lispworks and its pretty nice 19:54:13 sykopomp: hmmm Eclipse won't be on that list then, too slow on a netbook 19:54:14 zbrown: Eclipse has a plugin called CUSP that does a decent job of working with Lisp; all free....idk if I have tried on windows, but iirc, can't think why it wouldn't work 19:58:05 lightbulb [~null@ppp-70-128-101-251.dsl.tulsok.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:19 zbrown: i'd hardly consider VIM an editor with good lisp/scheme support, but then i require mere than syntax highlighting and paren matching when i think of lisp/scheme support. Lispworks and Allegro both come with IDEs that include editors... LW's is emacsen, AFAIK. 19:58:27 *hargettp* apparently doesn't read before he types :) 19:58:46 gbyers [~gb@c-68-35-35-22.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:18 good evening, gbyers! 19:59:28 Hi. 19:59:53 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 20:00:16 Hmm, I *know* I should know that name. 20:01:36 beach: Yes, you should. Think CCL. 20:01:48 Gary's google karma is apparently weak -- unless he's the same one as the associate for bible research 20:01:53 nyef: Thanks! 20:02:15 -!- JohnnyL [~excellent@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:02:28 http://www.biblearchaeology.org/about/staff.aspx # not that Gary Byers 20:03:49 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.6.150] has joined #lisp 20:03:53 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:04 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 20:04:05 Krystof: :D 20:04:05 I used to get email from people who thought I was that guy. I can only assume that he used to get some intended for me, so things even out. 20:04:58 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:36 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:50 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B62E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:22 JohnnyL [~excellent@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:03 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:09:20 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-66-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:09:47 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 20:17:44 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:53 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:21:15 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:26:42 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:26:53 -!- schauerlich [~shower@unaffiliated/schauerlich] has left #lisp 20:27:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-233-135.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 20:30:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:22 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:00 lispm [~joswig@d221169.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:34 pjb: "therefore when lisp calls a foreign function, no garbage collection may occur." 20:33:38 this is not true 20:33:54 Xach: around? 20:33:54 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:13 Tim Daly mentioned the visitor pattern and MAP, this caused some confusion on hackernews 20:34:14 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:34:15 TomJ [~tomj@78.147.133.69] has joined #lisp 20:34:30 I've added a Lisp example to the Wikipedia page 20:34:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visitor_pattern 20:34:36 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:34:38 any comments? 20:35:06 Visitor pattern is double-dispatch is poor-man's multimethods. 20:35:36 double dispatch is not needed in Lisp 20:35:50 double dispatch would be needed to emulate the Java solution 20:36:01 hahaha that's great. 20:36:29 Visitor pattern is about walking a object structure and calling methods on the objects 20:37:02 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:50 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:48 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:04 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:45:07 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:45:39 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:13 Fare [~Fare@c-76-24-31-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:57 -!- NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:43 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:51 -!- lispm [~joswig@d221169.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:11 postamar [~postamar@69-196-168-149.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:08 -!- gbyers [~gb@c-68-35-35-22.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:54:49 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:59:30 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93460.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:49 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-132-122-162.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:04:29 Guthur [~michael@host86-139-221-234.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:01 -!- _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:12:45 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:15 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:19:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-233-135.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:23:50 Very quiet here. 21:24:48 i just painted for about an hour 21:24:51 http://picasaweb.google.com/eMbry00s/Foton?authkey=Gv1sRgCJGsxvjjiI7sMQ&feat=directlink 21:24:53 Everybody is probably busy elsewhere. 21:25:28 I'm trying to find out if the PPC-threading failures I'm seeing are from code changes or if it's an environmental thing. 21:25:28 that last image (acrylic painting), made looking at the pastel crayon sketch/painting, which was made looking at the subject matter 21:26:07 nyef: global warming and such? 21:26:21 OliverUv: Looks very tidy, almost Swedish. 21:26:46 stassats`: Kernel upgrade, and I'm now running a web browser and watched a youtube video within the browser process instance. 21:27:18 beach: I am Swedish. 21:27:38 hej och hå, farbor blå, etc 21:27:44 OliverUv: I know, it was a joke! 21:27:47 haha 21:27:57 it is not supposed to be tidy though! 21:28:10 OliverUv: that was my second joke. 21:28:21 drewc: what's up? 21:28:34 golly gee 21:28:57 the painting is not as dark IRL, but this photo captured the contrasts and sharpness surprisingly well... better than most of my photos of my paintings 21:29:21 OliverUv: It is hard for me to tell what animal that is, given that I can't really tell what size it is. 21:29:55 ah, that is a squirrel who built a nest between the AC intake and the window bars just outside my work room 21:30:30 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:31 OliverUv: I considered that as a possibility, but then didn't see a tail, so wasn't sure. 21:30:32 though I haven't seen him in a few days, I wonder if he has been drivern away by my uneven day-night-rhythm 21:30:37 One can't call it a rhythm, really. 21:30:55 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:24 Anyway (to get back on topic), I am fairly pleased with the day since I made some progress on CLIM 3. It is too large a thing to do on my own I would think, but things are getting clearer in my head at least. Once, gilberth agreed that he would help me, but I haven't heard from him for a while. Perhaps this is a good time to give him a call. 21:33:25 Xach: i'd like to move my stuff from clbuild to quicklisp, and i have some time today... i can has preview? 21:33:47 drewc: sure, hop on over to #quicklisp 21:34:39 heapos [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/heapos] has joined #lisp 21:35:25 OliverUv: In what place were those pictures taken? 21:35:49 my GF's parents' old apartment in Taiwan 21:36:10 OliverUv: Nice! 21:36:12 where I am living at the moment 21:36:16 should I declare notinline every function in ASDF, to have a good claim that it's an implementation bug if can't upgrade code? 21:36:18 yes, it is very nice! 21:36:21 but incredibly warm 21:36:35 (even though in practice it probably won't change a thing either way) 21:36:36 however, I manage, and the good outweigh the bad, so I am sad to be leaving at the end of the month 21:36:44 OliverUv: How warm? Warmer than in Moscow at the moment? 21:36:56 I should certainly think so! 21:37:12 [Moscow had 40°C today] 21:37:48 damn! 21:37:51 no, it is not that hot 21:37:56 here are some graphs http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=heat+and+humidity+taoyuan 21:38:08 and smog from the wildfires 21:38:18 the humidity is what makes it feel so warm, approacing 90% daytimes 21:38:24 tps 21:38:40 Yes, almost as humid as in Bordeaux. 21:38:46 Fare: Why? Don't they default to notinline? 21:39:09 nyef: they default to making no guarantee. 21:39:18 especially for in-file calls. 21:39:18 beach: wow, you've got it that humid down there? 21:39:36 then I know you know, at least 21:39:40 -!- heapos [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/heapos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:48 humidity+heat = sauna-ish 21:39:49 OliverUv: We frequently have 95% humidity, but rarely when it is really warm. 21:39:55 ah 21:40:08 -!- p8m [~dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:40:09 when I arrived in Taiwan and stepped outside the airport, my glasses fogged up 21:40:21 *Fare* was writing that article for ILC2010, when it became obvious that SBCL had a good claim at failing to upgrade gf's that hadn't been declared notinline. 21:40:22 that was the first time my glasses fogged up from going outdoors 21:40:27 I was like "shit" 21:40:29 heh 21:41:21 problem to test if notinline helps, I'd have to make an incompatible change in calling convention somewhere. Meh. 21:41:27 OliverUv: When I moved to Baltimore from Västerås, I had a similar experience at the airport: Shit, nobody told me it was going to be this hot here. I can't survive here! 21:41:30 there should be a #weather channel, after all, it's the most discussed topic 21:41:41 stassats`: Sorry! 21:41:45 upgrading code is HARD. At least, it's possible in CL. 21:42:00 beach: luckily for me it has never been as bad as the first impression! How has it been for you? 21:42:08 but much harder than could be. 21:42:10 beach: i'm just trying to resist the urge to participate 21:42:18 the inline/notinline is a conceptual bug. 21:42:19 stassats`: haha, very sorry, we are Swedish, after all 21:42:27 stassats`: I was hoping someone would react to my CLIM3 news instead. :( 21:42:50 if it isn't on planet lisp, it didn't happen 21:43:01 CL, just like Erlang, should have defined syntax for both dynamic and static calls, and let the user define semantics independently from optimization. 21:43:09 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:11 OliverUv: Now I'm fine. It's my wife (who grew up in Houston) who has more of a problem now. 21:43:31 Xach: but quicklisp isn't on planet lisp..? 21:43:31 and factor shows that you can inline a dynamic call w/o losing the dynamic semantics. 21:43:37 OliverUv: it hasn't happened yet 21:44:07 beach: oh, that is unexpected for me.. but then I have the prejudice of north America being all south of Sweden (not true, I guess?) 21:44:36 btw, who wants to review rpg's and my article for ILC2010 when we have a complete draft? 21:44:47 (also, I have no BLM speaker for August 2010) 21:45:02 Fare: I would like to review. 21:45:16 beach: CLIM3 news are exciting, though i've been trying to use Qt from lisp in the past week 21:45:27 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@202.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:45:35 stassats`: How is it working out? 21:45:53 rpg's? 21:45:57 oh, a person 21:46:05 it's not as pleasant in some places as CLIM, but at least it works (most of the time) like i want 21:46:06 OliverUv: You'ld be surprised. My wife hesitated moving to Bordeaux, because it is way further north than most places in the USA. 21:46:27 Xach: ok, I'll send it to you when it's more advanced than it is now (unless you're into early reviews) 21:46:39 (thanks) 21:46:46 i miss presentations and stream panes 21:47:06 beach: huh. I am always surprised by how much of all continents are north of the equator (most of them!), so I don't usually expect to be surprised about things being south of anything 21:47:09 stassats`: I hope that CLIM3 will remain in the spirit of CLIM2 but be much simpler to learn and to implement, so with fewer obscure bugs. 21:48:07 stassats`: CLIM3 will definitely keep presentations and stream panes. 21:48:35 though instead i got better international fonts and input, lots of widgets with lots of options 21:49:15 oh yeah, I assume CLIM3 is UTF-* compatible? 21:49:16 -!- postamar [~postamar@69-196-168-149.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: postamar] 21:49:37 stassats`: The international fonts are probably already available in McCLIM. I use mcclim-truetype for my Vietnamese stuff. 21:49:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:50:40 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:45 OliverUv: That's not even a consideration, because UTF-* is just an external coding system. Once you get it into internal form, there is no problem, and that's the responsibility of your Lisp system. McCLIM can already do that with mcclim-truetype. 21:50:57 beach: i used it, it's only good if you have all the glyphs in one font 21:51:30 beach: nice! 21:51:32 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:34 stassats`: That's sad! 21:52:39 qt can select automatically another font for parts 21:53:17 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93460.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:53:21 i think it wouldn't be hard to add that to mcclim, but that's an additional work nevertheless 21:53:30 paint dries surprisingly fast in Taiwan! 21:53:47 stassats`: I know how we (humanity) got into that mess, because we need to distinguish between external memory and main memory, so wee need to "load" fonts, so we need a code-point-to-glyph mapping, etc. We also got into this mess because most languages don't have the compiler available at runtime, so we must invent a stupid little language for "hinting" that is simple enough that we can write an interpreter for it. 21:54:46 not that i hadn't spent too much time trying to sort issues with lisp<->qt layer, but it was fun and i learned something about C++ 21:55:05 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:06 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:55:10 stassats`: Congratulations! 21:55:37 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:35 Where do CLIM3 news get posted? 21:56:37 and recently took a look at LispWorks's CAPI, it's quite nice 21:57:43 pjb: They don't at the moment, other than what I tell you here. 21:58:07 ok. 21:58:30 and making a Qt back-end for CLIM would be good 21:59:04 Indeed! 21:59:35 i'm getting this weird error from sbcl, looks related to xcb, it happens somewhat sporadically, at least i can't tell what triggers it, this is the output to the inferior-lisp emacs (slime just goes dead without notice) http://sprunge.us/WQKB?cl 22:00:19 xcb? what are you doing with it? 22:00:58 i'm not doing anything with it, just trying to run my lispbuilder-sdl code :D 22:01:26 that means that lispbuilder-sld is using XCB 22:01:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:47 and some assertion fail in it, so it's not a SBCL error 22:03:35 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.6.150] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 22:04:45 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.6.150] has joined #lisp 22:05:28 pjb: I have no particular official claim to the title as the author of CLIM3, and I am not nearly as smart as Scott McKay, so I can't do this entirely on my own, but I can provide ideas and directions. At the moment, though, things are not clear in my mind, and I need to experiment. Therefore, both the code and the spec is in flux. I could show it to a select number of people who would understand all that, and who would be willi 22:05:28 work with me to discuss those problems, but not yet to a broad audience that would have unhelpful comments. 22:06:47 interesting, i don't even have a xcb_io.c on my system. just a backup from an old coly of libX11 source. i wonder where the hell it's looking. 22:07:04 pjb: To mention one example, yesterday, text output was all wrong. Had I posted what I had yesterday, people might have taken that as the "truth", and would have been very unhappy. 22:07:13 derrida: It's probably from debug info in the compiled xcb on your system. 22:07:56 *derrida* facepalms 22:08:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:08:44 so, what would be a good next step for trying to resolve this? it's happening too frequently for me to just deal with it by continuously restarting my program. 22:09:19 update x libraries 22:09:56 Is xcb thread-safe? Are you using multiple threads? 22:10:13 i thought that might be the issue so i recompiled sbcl without multi-threading 22:10:23 didn't go away :( 22:10:33 nyef: that was one of its goals, i believe 22:10:56 *beach* is currently in a situation where each modification requires removing all the .fasls and restarting SLIME :(. This is must less comfortable that GDB 25 years ago. 22:11:10 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:11:33 i havent had to deal with that in a while 22:11:55 beach: Really? How'd you manage that? 22:12:03 i thought asdf2 fixed that 22:12:23 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:12:23 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:12:23 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 22:12:45 nyef: I managed to get an SBCL binary for my system that is particularly buggy. 22:13:09 Ah. 22:14:01 nyef: I have been told I could compile my own, and I might do that some day, but I don't have the infrastructure to do so, so I have to consider the time spent on doing that compared to the additional time I have to spend compiling my system. 22:14:09 i'll recompile sbcl for the hell of it, bunch of changes since 2 days ago it looks like. 22:14:48 derrida: Most of which shouldn't affect you, unless you're using a PPC system. 22:14:56 And you're not. 22:15:06 i'm not right now, but i'm very excited to hear ppc was updated 22:15:10 (I know: Mine is the only PPC system with threads.) 22:16:06 Okay, my breakage -is- a code-change. Which means I can track it down. 22:16:10 (Yay.) 22:16:13 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:16:59 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:18:27 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 22:18:42 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFEF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:19:59 One of the things I would like to work in CLIM3 is inter-application presentations, so that an `accept' in one application could be satisfied by a click on a presentation in another application. I think this is mainly a question of "focus", i.e, which input context (of which application) is current. 22:20:32 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:24:52 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:26:41 Then, we could create an application-independent library of presentation types, such as `date', `weight', `temperature', etc. 22:26:50 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-210-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 22:27:16 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:27:43 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:42 mlfnav [~mlfnv@cpe-70-113-207-193.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:51 Cross application Click-and-drag and copy-and-paste is a solved problem, there should be no difficulty in implementing cross application presentations ;-) 22:35:15 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFEF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:18 pjb: Sort of true. Copy-and-paste is a necessity because Unix has processes. I am considering one application getting the full data structure of the other without copying. There should be no difficulty in implementing cross-application presentations, but one has to think about which application is currently "in charge" if several applications are in the state of wanting an object of a particular presesentation type. 22:36:53 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:49 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:53 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-76-24-31-46.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:31 Indeed, if there was only one memory space there would be almost no problem. My point is that you could implement cross-application presentations as a kind of copy-and-paste. The only difficulty being to gather all the needed objects to be sent to the other application. But you're right, perhaps we would want to only send a reference, and implement a kind of Distributed Object protocol, to further send messages (RPC) from one 22:38:31 application to the other. 22:38:41 pjb: if you use "focus by click" there is no problem, because it is clear what application is in charge, but if you use "focus follows mouse", you have to provide some "focus freeze" faciltiy where you "stay focused" until you clicked on some presentaton. 22:39:51 pjb: At the moment, I am not thinking about inter-Unix-application presentations. That's a much harder problem. 22:39:57 I'm specifically making references to OpenStep (MacOSX) Distributed Objects. 22:40:02 ok. 22:40:24 pjb: I don't know OpenStep so I am not sure what that means. 22:41:56 The dynamic object system implemented in Objective-C (similar to Smalltalk) allows them to implement easily enough a Distributed Object system, where you can send a reference to a remote object to a different application, which can then send messages that will be executed in the original applications thru some kind of (automatically and dynamically genrated) RPC. 22:42:38 In Lisp it is a little more difficult, since we would also like to implement non-generic functions such as car and cdr on distributed objects. 22:43:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:23 pjb: What you are saying makes me nervous. How can you send a reference to an object to a different application (having a different address space)? 22:44:57 In DO, it is implemented as a special class of objects, NSProxy, that implements only the 'no-such-method' method, to forward all the message received to the original object. 22:45:03 pjb: You also make me nervous by talking about "sending messages" which seems to exclue multiple dispatch. 22:45:17 beach: That's right 22:45:23 Indeed, DO is based on Objective-C which has a Smalltalk-like object system. 22:45:34 There are more difficulties in CL. 22:45:35 Spewns1 [~jake@97-92-216-245.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:32 Looking at the solutions implemented in CL Object Databases could help. 22:47:56 pjb: Even with single dispatch, I still can't see how I can send a reference to an object in my address space to a different application and and expect that application to be able to (say) modify a slot of that object. 22:49:05 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDFEF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:49:14 That would work like this. In the original appl, you would have a function to send a reference of an object. It would keep that object with a public identifier in a map, and send the public identifier to the remote app. 22:49:30 In the remote app, it would receive the public identifier, and create a proxy object with that identifier. 22:50:09 When the proxy object receives a message (when a function is called with this proxy object), this proxy object sends back a requests to the original application, which would forward the function call. THe result being sent back. 22:51:39 pjb: Fine, but what happens if the remote application sends (say) a `graph' to the orignial application? 22:51:58 A new proxy would be created in the original application. It can work both ways. 22:52:01 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:16 This is a kind of implementation where the objects stay in their home spaces. 22:53:02 pjb: I don't get it. If the orignial application says (graph:successors node) what does itget? 22:53:51 If the node was a proxy from the other application, it would send a RPC to the other to get the result. If the result is an object, an proxy would be instanciated in the caller for that resulting object. 22:54:13 http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/DistrObjects/Concepts/architecture.html 22:54:29 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-173.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:55:20 -!- Spewns1 [~jake@97-92-216-245.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:48 pjb: I have a hart time believing that it is possible to make separate address spaces a totally transparent thing, but I can't see the flaw in your answers. 22:56:49 Actually, it's not too different from the presentation mechanism. When you have a presentation, you don't have the object itself, but a representation of the object. And when you manipulate the presentation, the operations are forward to the real object (eg slime presentations vs. swank objects). 22:58:32 pjb: Not quite right, but I see what you are trying to say. 22:59:15 Well, it's not totally transparent, you have to publish some 'root' distributed object. 22:59:36 But further creation of proxies and message sending can be made quite transparent, given the right language. 23:00:00 pjb: What about multiple dispatch? 23:00:51 beach: I'm not sure how this prevents multiple dispatch. Perhaps it makes it harder to implement, but it's still possible. 23:01:24 In the case of CL, we have the classic difficulties we find also with OO databases, that is, the basic data types (integers, conses, etc, vs. CLOS objects), and functions vs. generic functions. The fact that if you call a function that doesn't exist, a unique handler doesn't get called, so you have difficulties to dispatch a proxy method... 23:01:44 pjb: Oh, another problem, what if I do (setf (child ) Now for multiple-dispatch, the problems are magnified. What happens when the dispatched objects are proxies on different applications?! 23:02:16 pjb: right 23:03:21 The setf should resolve to a g-function call (setf-child remote local) and the implementation of that gf for the remote proxy would forward a proxy of local. So that the remote child would be set to a proxy of the local object. 23:04:09 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:10 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:15 pjb: So the remote application has to be aware of the existence of remote objects? 23:04:31 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 23:05:10 Well, this is a generic question. We could hide it somewhat. But the programmer would better be conscious that some of the objects would not be local, and he would have to deal with possible communication errors. 23:05:41 pjb: OK, I see. Thanks. 23:05:46 But syntactically, the program could be totally oblivious of the proxies. 23:07:38 By the way, in Objective-C, you could even declare the class of the objects, so that the compiler can check the messages sent to it, but at run-time it can be a different class (eg. a proxy class) with no other method implemented but the no-method handler. 23:07:53 pjb: really? If I wrote a remote-ignorant method like this: (defmethod bla ((obj1 type1) (obj2 type2)) ...) could it be possible for a remote application to instantiate objects *o1* and *o2* so that this method would be run? 23:08:28 In the case of Objective-C with single dispatch, yes. 23:08:54 (this example has multiple dispatch) 23:09:19 In the case of multiple dispatch, we could make some assumption. For example, we could say that the method called will be in the application of the first dispatched object. 23:09:47 Then we would dispatch on the classes of all the objects, but the method selection would be done in the application of the first one. 23:10:20 The other objects, if not in the same application would be proxies. 23:11:27 pjb: It sounds like magic to me. 23:11:33 Another way would be to override the mechanism computing the methods to call so that it would involves all the applications concerned, and call-next-method could call methods from one application to the other. 23:12:27 Well, the question is whether it would be worthwhile to do it. 23:12:46 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 23:12:54 It would indeed be quite difficult to implement for CL, and while it would be cool, the benefit is not really obvious. 23:14:01 If the user selects a presentation from another application, it could as well mean copy-and-paste, (and possibly copy whole graphs of objects). It would be simplier to implement, and the user could just be careful. 23:14:20 pjb: My question was not whether it was worthwhile, but whether it exists. I was asking you whether there is an existing system that makes the existence of Unix processes transparent, even to applications that weren't written with that possibility in mind. 23:15:18 It exists since the 90's. NeXTstep/OpenStep had at least a 10-year advance over the rest, and unfortunately, 20 years later, MacOSX keeps this 10-years advance... 23:15:30 pjb: copy-and-paste would be contrary to the spirit of CL. 23:15:42 davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has joined #lisp 23:16:55 beach: what would be in the spirit of CL, would be the single address space. The only thing we can do on unix, is to try to simulate that. Help from the implementation would be most useful in this respect. We could have at least hooks in a given implementation so that applications can easily share parts of their addressing spaces, either thru shared memory or other IPC. 23:18:05 Sounds right. 23:18:16 For example, clisp can be compiled with an additionnal user slot to all lisp objects (or perhaps only conses, I don't remember), and this is very useful when we want to implement that kind of things (or OO databases). 23:18:24 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.6.150] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 23:19:32 pjb: that's an interesting nice touch. 23:21:55 Okay, found a diff that may have caused the problem: A VOP argument lifetime which caused a problem before got unfixed. 23:24:43 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B62E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:03 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:09 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:19 NextSTEP afaik used Smalltalk's model for its inter-process objects (something done in Ruby as well) 23:38:42 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:50 *stassats`* is amazed to see modern languages without keyword parameters 23:42:33 stassats`: tuples or messages are interesting alternatives. (e.g. foo().a_is(...).b_is(...).call(...)) 23:43:50 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:21 that's something like what i'm seeing in this Java book 23:44:57 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:47:37 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:51:03 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:51:45 -!- JohnnyL [~excellent@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:52:30 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:55:38 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp