00:00:22 <_3b> oh, i guess slime-proxy-connected-p binds slime-dispatching-connection, which is all that is set at that point 00:00:59 <_3b> any idea why it does that? 00:01:07 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:01:09 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:13 My debugging skills are inadequate, are there any debugging tutorials for cmucl or sbcl? 00:04:23 _3b: I believe because we want slime-connected-p (called by slime-proxy-connected-p) to use the slime-proxy connection to check if it is connected, not any other slime connection. 00:04:33 cisticola: i don't know of anything like that. 00:04:59 cisticola, are you familiar with the basic commands? like how to inspect an object? 00:08:36 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 00:10:19 oconnore: I am using slime and can pick menu items like inspect, I have tried using trace and step but to no good effect, To be truthful I add code to write objects to file or princ to standard output most of the time. the backtrace output is sometimes useful but I have more difficulty getting value out of that with sbcl 00:11:10 cisticola: i often compile individual functions with high debug via C-u C-c C-c when I can't find specifically what's going wrong 00:11:23 cisticola: when i do that, their frames show up in green and using "v" jumps to the exact error form 00:11:34 cisticola: and showing the frame includes more local variables. 00:13:57 <_3b> gonzojive: hmm, don't understand how the code works well enough to tell if that is reasonable or not... possibly should check for the other 2 connection variables being set 00:14:43 Xach: that is the sort of info I would hope to get from a tutorial, Thanks I will give it a try. 00:16:34 <_3b> gonzojive: or maybe slime-proxy-connected-p should return NIL if (slime-proxy-connection) is nil? 00:17:39 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:55 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:32 _3b: do you know how to get a backtrace when you are prompted with 'no default connection selected. switch to nil?' I'm not sure how it goes wrong in initialization exactly 00:20:26 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 00:20:29 <_3b> i just put (backtrace) in slime-auto-select-connection 00:20:48 <_3b> and a few message calls to see what connection vars were set when 00:22:00 protip: M-x debug-on-entry RET slime-auto-select-connection 00:22:13 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:22:18 <_3b> i think the proper fix is either adding slime-dispatching-connection or (slime-current-connection) to the beginning of the AND in slime-proxy-connected-p 00:22:27 <_3b> not sure which of those though 00:22:31 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:22:55 oh, you don't want to break, only a backtrace 00:23:24 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:29 <_3b> debugger is probably at least as useful as a backtrace in this context :) 00:23:54 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:55 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 00:23:55 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 00:23:55 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 00:24:38 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:18 CAPI seems quite nice, too bad it's lispworks-only 00:28:15 _3b: maybe you can annotate http://paste.lisp.org/display/113238 00:28:27 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:29:15 i think something similar can be faked on top of commonqt 00:30:01 meanwhile, my current program is hanging, I have interrupted it and pasted part of the backtrace here http://paste.lisp.org/display/113237 00:31:03 <_3b> gonzojive: http://paste.lisp.org/+2FDI/1 00:31:16 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7847.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:31:35 cisticola: are you reading from a socket? 00:31:40 cisticola: And what, pray tell, is FD 7? 00:31:44 <_3b> cisticola: anything in *inferior-lisp* that looks related? 00:31:55 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:31:55 Oh. Has to be a socket. 00:32:06 "0.0.0.0:0" seems odd, though. 00:32:34 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:32:35 Are you trying to read from a "mother" or "host" socket instead of using accept()? 00:33:11 *nyef* hasn't done any serious socket work in ages. 00:33:50 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 00:34:05 <_3b> cisticola: are you sure it isn't just hanging due to a blocking read when there is nothing to read? (possibly forgot to flush a buffer on other end of connection or something?) 00:34:57 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.15.251] has joined #lisp 00:35:02 I am retrieving web pages sequentially, via drakma, works 99% of the time. 00:35:19 but hangs once in awhile 00:35:40 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@75.128.11.42] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 00:36:00 that must be pain to debug 00:38:04 stassats: yes, if it would only crash I would know how to handle it. 00:38:58 that's easy: (sb-ext:with-timeout 5 (drakma:http-request ...)) 00:39:38 perhaps it already has a parameter for this 00:39:45 <_3b> only on lw 00:40:27 stassats: thanks, I will incorporate that right away 00:41:15 <_3b> ccl also i guess, not that that helps on sbcl :) 00:42:07 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 00:42:14 stassats: Eek! Don't use WITH-TIMEOUT! 00:43:04 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:58 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:44:13 sb-sys:wait-until-fd-usable has timeout parameter 00:44:42 And there's the whole deadline mechanism, which provides for synchronous timeouts. 00:45:51 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:14 which, i presume, can be set with sb-impl::fd-stream-timeout 00:47:39 _3b: stack trace at http://paste.lisp.org/display/113238#2 00:48:17 <_3b> gonzojive: yeah, that looks like what i was getting 00:49:46 ARRGH dentist appointment now. got to run, got submerged in lisp again.. 00:50:35 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.34] has joined #lisp 00:50:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:51:05 <_3b> gonzojive: at that call to the hook, slime-dispatching-connection is set, but slime-buffer-connection and slime-default-connection are not, so rebinding dispatching-connection makes (slime-connection) call slime-autoselect-connection 00:52:38 <_3b> presumably (slime-proxy-connection) returning NIL should be enough to tell slime-proxy-connected-p is false, so if we skip the call to slime-connection-proxy-output-buffer in that case, it won't pop up the message 00:55:27 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:57 -!- akamaus [~maus@94.231.115.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:03:33 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:03:35 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04:03 cmsimon [~cmsimon@c-67-171-167-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:09 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@c-67-171-167-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:04:09 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 01:05:28 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 01:07:47 _3b: works for me 01:08:19 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:09:36 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:25 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.35] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:14:51 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:36 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-78-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:39 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:52 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:04 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:18:46 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-151-120.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has left #lisp 01:21:24 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 01:22:00 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:24:59 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:26:15 Vecklock [~Vecklock@76.73.167.82] has joined #lisp 01:26:21 -!- Vecklock [~Vecklock@76.73.167.82] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:16 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:28:41 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:29:37 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:34:19 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:34:23 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:34:40 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 01:37:37 has anyone worked with cusp? 01:45:38 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:33 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:46:42 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:46:44 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:22 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:43 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:03:45 ficthe [~cutintape@unaffiliated/ficthe] has joined #lisp 02:05:51 Other than list copy and remf (or traversal/build), is there a single op that lets you get a copy of a property-list with a property or propertieS removed? 02:08:45 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:13:07 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:14:03 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:15:16 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:27:39 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:42 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:34:30 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:28 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:38:54 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:43:19 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 02:43:21 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:23 Plasticism [~anonymous@APointe-a-Pitre-106-1-69-135.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:47:47 -!- Plasticism [~anonymous@APointe-a-Pitre-106-1-69-135.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 02:48:16 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:49:15 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.49] has joined #lisp 02:50:29 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:47 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.49] has joined #lisp 02:50:49 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:53:04 ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:08 -!- rme [rme@clozure-12B5D59B.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 02:57:08 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-49.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:02:48 Modius: alexandria:remove-from-plist 03:10:31 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:10:40 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:13:08 -!- toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:19:33 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:14 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:25:39 -!- jbd [~user@fw1-aus1.rackspace.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:27:37 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:29:28 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:09 -!- ficthe [~cutintape@unaffiliated/ficthe] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:15 ficthe [~cutintape@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bkexycsoxizsbljq] has joined #lisp 03:49:14 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:50:27 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 03:50:44 good morning 03:51:57 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-49.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:04 About eight minutes to that here. 03:52:23 about 2 hours there 03:55:34 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:50 -!- rme [rme@clozure-12B5D59B.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:56:50 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-49.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:10 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:53 ... midnight. Good night. 03:59:58 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:00:06 Good morning everyone! 04:00:19 ... 04:00:41 05:59 < nyef> ... midnight. Good night. (nyef has quit) 06:00 < beach> Good morning everyone! 04:01:41 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:49 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:12:42 -!- hugod [~hugo123@bas1-montreal50-1279440157.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:17:42 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:22:59 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:24:33 -!- sdkmvx [~martin@unaffiliated/sdkmvx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:22 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440259.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:38:34 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:48:51 -!- ficthe [~cutintape@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:55:07 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 04:56:10 minion: memo for nyef: forgot to re-enable the gateway cron job. Things will be working from now on. 04:56:10 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 05:02:20 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-72-142.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:04:57 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-152-239.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:07:39 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:08:27 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:10:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:10:55 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-246-207.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:58 benny [~user@i577A7A2B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:11:59 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:25 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 -!- fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:02 NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 05:24:06 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-82-223.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:37 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-72-142.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:49 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:46:34 akamaus [~maus@94.231.115.95] has joined #lisp 05:49:23 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:50:49 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:56:34 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:12 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:15 holy crap. lispmeister posted this on twitter a while ago, and it is really great: http://vimeo.com/9790850 06:16:48 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:10 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:26 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 06:23:18 antifuchs: first time seeing impromptu in action? 06:24:14 no, I saw it before 06:24:40 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 06:24:40 but the explanation and the video editing before the piece captured me. 06:24:52 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 06:24:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 06:24:52 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:27:59 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-238-233.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:24 ASau [~user@77.246.230.215] has joined #lisp 06:32:27 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:33:25 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:33:44 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:57 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 06:33:58 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:35:12 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:37:25 anyway, now I will check out impromptu myself (: 06:40:54 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:42:58 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:45:16 -!- ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:45:28 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:46:12 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:00:18 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:03:20 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:31 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:34 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:05:40 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:07:55 -!- Intensity [WxXhzchx8G@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:07:59 -!- easyE [98Litalb9w@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:20:20 Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-167.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:25:30 jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:31:30 lightbulb [~null@ppp-70-128-101-251.dsl.tulsok.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:40 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-238-233.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:40:13 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:43:54 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-49.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:40 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:49 -!- ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:49:24 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:52:33 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:35 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:55:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:56:53 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:00:12 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:00:22 -!- Adlai``` is now known as Adlai 08:00:28 -!- Adlai [~adlai@46-116-52-110.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 08:00:28 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:06:53 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:09:32 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:11:03 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 08:20:10 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-19-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:22:19 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-89-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:24:04 xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:52 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:28:51 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-14-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:30:40 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:22 sunwukong [~vukung@catv-89-133-25-46.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:44:24 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 good morning 08:45:09 hi mvilleneuve 08:46:37 any ideas how to debug errors in foreign code under SBCL? the error is 3 layers deep in C doe and SBCL/slime are just giving me "foreign function: #x422670", though the library was compiled with debug options 08:46:44 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52:43 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:44 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@138.82-134-78.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:57:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:03:38 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:03:54 easyE [hCHkihNfMQ@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:17 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082FB30.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:59 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:09:08 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 09:09:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 09:11:19 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C981.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:11:56 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:13:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:17:39 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:18:34 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:44 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23:58 ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 09:24:04 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:24 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 09:24:54 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:26:47 tomu415 [~tomu415@adsl-67-112-122-213.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:50 -!- tomu415 [~tomu415@adsl-67-112-122-213.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 09:27:30 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:29:35 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 09:29:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 09:33:11 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:35:11 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 *relcomp* just tried (setf (values) (values)) and it worked fine. 09:36:52 it shouldn't? 09:37:25 It should, of course. (setf) works, too. 09:41:52 -!- easyE [hCHkihNfMQ@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:46 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46:32 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:40 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.15.251] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:49:26 lichtblau [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:45 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:55:57 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bfbqbwanxwsderzm] has joined #lisp 10:03:48 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:07:03 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:46 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:13:34 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-96-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:14:17 Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:15:37 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:42 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:45 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:48 Demosthenes [~demo@m430536d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:09 -!- xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:57 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:58 joekidd [~joekidd__@dynamic-78-8-236-117.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 10:31:18 -!- joekidd [~joekidd__@dynamic-78-8-236-117.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 10:33:16 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 10:35:19 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has joined #lisp 10:36:15 xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:00 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m430536d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:42:50 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 10:50:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CADB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:00 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:52:13 -!- Tanami [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has left #lisp 10:54:09 -!- qebab [finnrobi@apollo.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:54:33 -!- andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:56:39 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 11:00:10 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:02:11 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:03:28 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:03:34 tanami [~eval@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 11:04:06 urandom_ [~user@p548A628C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:48 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.128.37] has joined #lisp 11:08:33 -!- tanami [~eval@150.101.97.171] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:10:02 shouldn't all setf macros work with multiple value places? 11:10:35 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 11:12:39 eg. (incf (values a b) (values 1 2)), (push (values 1 2) (values a b)), etc. 11:12:40 AFAIK CLIM implements that, but not standard CL 11:13:01 Oh? 11:13:31 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:13:54 *delYsid* was thinking about setf* 11:14:00 delYsid: standard cl states nothing about multiple value setf macros... and one or two implementations (i believe sbcl and clozurecl) give errors when using such macros on values places. acl ignores the other places. whichever, it's not portable behaviour 11:14:08 er, nevermind 11:14:56 delYsid: wait, i'm not talking about setf itself, but about the macros that end up setf'ing (either by explicitly calling setf or setf-expanding and calling the reader/writer forms) 11:15:40 delYsid: but thanks anyway, i'll take a look at what clim says 11:18:27 pmd: 5.1.2.3 seems to contradict that 11:19:42 lispm [~joswig@g224127091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:43 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:44 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:20:44 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 11:23:55 mal__: contradicts what? 11:24:16 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:27 mal__: oh wait, that setf-macros should indeed support values places? 11:25:00 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:10 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 11:25:30 mal__: because, as i'm seeing it now, most of these macros state that theyr're equivalent to some setf but only evaluating place once 11:26:34 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-96-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:03 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:27:40 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 11:30:07 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:30:17 I think the (incf (values a b) (values 1 2)) example should work. I don't see where in the section on INCF it's restricted to the first value only 11:33:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:33:17 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:27 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:36:34 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224127091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:40 toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:41:52 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:43:25 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:50 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:45:05 i start with (setf a 0 b 0), then (incf (values a b) (values 1 2)). clisp, ccl, sbcl: only support 1 value and signals an error; acl: increments a, sets b to nil (damn!) can anyone try lw? 11:46:18 sort of surprised that worked at all 11:46:59 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:47:01 rsynnott: why? 11:47:15 i'm not: (setf (values a b) (+ (values 1 2) (values a b))) 11:49:53 lw signals an error too 11:51:00 defsetf seems to be specified in a way to support multiple values 11:51:26 define-modify-macro doesn't 11:52:10 (ok, define-modify-macro is acceptable that it doesn't support multiple values, it would be very odd i believe) 11:52:46 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:03 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:05 does anyone know how incf is implemented in the open-source implementations? 11:53:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53:44 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 11:53:51 their sources are open, aren't they? 11:53:59 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:03 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-167.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 11:54:24 clhs 5.1.3 11:54:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ac.htm 11:54:27 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:29 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-155-141.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:35 yeah, but someone might have it "cached" in "memory" 11:55:10 looking how incf is implemented is just M-. away 11:55:59 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:03 ok i'll look into it (i wasn't running them under slime) 11:58:00 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:06 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:05 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:00:05 beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-155-141.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:04:57 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:05:32 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:42 ok, so sbcl's problem is the use of get-setf-method, an internal that specifically says "This is a specialized-for-one-value version of GET-SETF-EXPANSION (and a relic from pre-ANSI Common Lisp). Portable ANSI code should use GET-SETF-EXPANSION directly." 12:07:11 more or less... it also uses define-modify-macro to define incf 12:08:08 lie, clisp uses define-modify-macro 12:09:55 "problem"? 12:09:58 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-193-21.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:10:27 what should (incf (values a b) (values 1 1)) do? 12:10:33 pmd: it's hardly a problem, surely? 12:10:49 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 12:11:08 stassats`: ok, i call it a problem. i'd expect both setf and setf-macros to support multiple values. however, everyone has lived happily ever after even so they don't 12:11:20 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 12:11:20 stassats`: (values (incf a 1) (incf b 1)) 12:11:25 for example 12:12:12 so read "problem" as "pmd calls it a problem because he's being picky today" 12:13:22 fe[nl]ix: i'm asking what it should do per standard 12:13:34 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 12:13:56 i am mostly interested in knowing if the spec actually says something about this than the actual implementations, as fe[nl]ix has just shown the "obvious" work-around (not so obvious if you're trhowing code at a setf-macro) 12:14:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14:34 incf says "incrementing and decrementing the _value_ of place" 12:14:45 singular 12:16:04 generating a "good" random lisp form is difficult 12:16:16 ok, i'll buy that, 5.1.3 also states value in singular... but... :\ ok 12:16:59 clhs setf 12:16:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 12:17:03 so since it doesn't say what happens when given multiple-value places, we should assume it's undefined behaviour and not count on it, right? 12:17:11 "the value" as well, so no 12:17:41 stassats`: sorry, i didn't catch that, "no" to what? 12:18:48 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:43 pmd: values work in setf 12:19:56 stassats`: wait, clhs setf also refers only value in singular, although it explicity supports multiple-value places as in 5.1.2.3, so what matters is that place can be a values place no matter what 12:20:09 that's what i was talking about 12:20:44 so do you think that other modifier macros should also support multiple values? 12:20:53 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:20:54 s/multiple values/values places/ 12:22:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bkexycsoxizsbljq] has left #lisp 12:23:19 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 12:24:13 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:17 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:15 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:29:30 what backtracking libraries are there? (other than screamer) 12:30:03 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:30:56 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-25-66.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:08 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:24 xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:04 lusory [~bart@bb119-74-203-203.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:41:35 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-193-21.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 12:41:53 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:43:32 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:09 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:44:10 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A628C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:44:40 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:10 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.96.202] has joined #lisp 12:45:10 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.96.202] has quit [Changing host] 12:45:10 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:45:50 urandom__ [~user@p548A65D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:04 levente: what is a backtracking library in general? 12:47:59 mega1, do you know screamer? 12:48:07 yes 12:48:27 are you looking for another implementation? 12:48:29 it does have non-deterministic operations 12:49:17 it just seems a bit too heavy, but maybe I should use that 12:49:49 I'm trying to generate random lisp forms 12:49:56 with certain properties 12:50:10 the naive recursive approach is not good enough 12:51:24 jonathan` [~user@38.96.178.178] has joined #lisp 12:52:18 you don't have tight performance constraints if you are even considering screamer or non-determinism by backtracking, right? 12:53:05 it's genetic programming, so narrowing the search space might be more important than that 12:54:01 and evaluating the fitness function is expensive enough 12:54:38 when would the random form generator be invoked? 12:54:56 during making the initial population 12:55:02 and later during mutation 12:55:36 there's also crossover but it does not involve making new forms 12:57:03 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-19-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57:18 right now forms are built up from constants, lexical variable references (these come from the generated lambda's formal parameters), if forms and function calls 12:57:19 what about trying to make the encoding fault tolerant instead? 12:58:11 variable types, return types and argument types are also considered 12:58:35 mega1, I don't know what you mean by that 12:59:01 I mean don't operate on the lisp AST directly or constrain it so that the mortalility of newborns is reasonable. 12:59:29 other constraints include: form depth minimum, maximum, available functions, some constraints of nesting of functions and special forms, etc. 13:01:27 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:01:27 perhaps the size "constraints" can be softened by making the the probability of nesting more levels progressively less and less as the formula gets deeper 13:01:44 and penalize runtime complexity in the fitness function. 13:01:55 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest57898 13:02:27 the size constraint is softening might help (simplify) 13:02:34 the other thing I'm already doing 13:03:39 the current problem I have is that the probability of making a useful mutation is too low 13:03:58 I really think that it's an encoding issue. 13:04:00 and most of individuals in the population are full of useless code 13:04:09 yes 13:04:32 cixa` [~user@121-10-N1.aster.pl] has joined #lisp 13:04:37 hi 13:04:47 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-6.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:05:11 mega1, I'm not sure I get what you are suggesting 13:05:15 -!- cixa` [~user@121-10-N1.aster.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:31 I'm suggesting that the lisp AST may not be the right medium if the task even if the task requires a general purpose language. 13:06:45 *even if the task 13:07:14 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:50 in the "learning programs: a hierachical bayesian approach" paper there is for example a transformation that kills variables 13:08:17 that may make combinations more likely to be meaningful 13:08:57 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 13:09:17 In general any long-range dependency is problematic if there is no fault tolerance (that is, a way to fix the broken dependencies). 13:09:44 mega1, may I call you on skype? 13:09:54 sure 13:12:43 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:17:37 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 13:18:21 mega: Use sexual reproduction for improvement -- mutation only to maintain the gene pool. 13:19:55 icecube [~user@p549C6865.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:07 hi folks, i need a good howto 4 ecl (for building stand alone executables, or embedding in c code) 13:21:19 do anybody know a good one ? 13:21:50 I believe it is documented in the ecl documentation. 13:21:57 Not knowing how to spell "for" might be a problem, though. 13:22:27 ;) 13:22:39 http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/index.html <- Oh, look. It's in the obvious place. 13:22:44 See "system building". 13:23:46 Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:30:41 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:30:52 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:32:20 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDF616.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:36:34 subhro [~bsdboy@122.180.3.102] has joined #lisp 13:38:10 ty 4 the hint 13:38:48 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:38:53 -!- subhro is now known as Deesl 13:38:54 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@122.180.3.102] has quit [Changing host] 13:38:54 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 13:41:36 Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:41:58 jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:44:39 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:46:07 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 13:48:59 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 13:50:19 stassats`: Are you sure you want to be passing :standard-initial-bindings nil to ccl:process-run-function? See http://www.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2009-April/009125.html 13:51:56 i'm not sure 13:54:09 -!- Guest57898 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:56:07 rme: after reading this, i still don't understand what are the drawbacks 13:57:50 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:58 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:47 -!- jonathan` [~user@38.96.178.178] has left #lisp 14:00:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:01:27 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-133-233.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:03:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:04:50 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:05:38 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:54 stassats`: One issue is thread-safety. For example, gensym expects *gensym-counter* to be thread-local; it's not protected by a lock or anything. There's a similar concern with cl:random and *random-state*. 14:06:17 ok, i'll revert it 14:06:27 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:07:00 i wasn't sure about, so i applied it to see if anybody complains 14:07:03 Also http://www.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2005-January/006051.html 14:07:25 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.215.106] has joined #lisp 14:08:35 stassats`: Thanks. 14:09:12 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ilnquruywhccpnar] has joined #lisp 14:10:30 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:03 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 14:28:03 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:29:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:24 rme: I don't understand how "At any point in time, exactly one binding of any special variable is current.", since "current binding" is made relative to a thread, while special variable is not. I would expect that a special variable has as many current bindings (some of which may be identical) as there are threads. 14:35:45 From the perspective of the current thread. 14:36:20 Xach: good link about tim daly :) glad to see something like it pass by 14:37:10 Zhivago: yes, that's a good interpretation 14:38:14 madnificent: I couldn't take his JGraphT example seriously 14:41:12 adeht: the general notion is nice. He has written some commercial apps in lisp and hints at code being simpler to some extent 14:41:29 madnificent: I did thoroughly disliked the Yegge post when it was written, and wrote a piece-by-piece critique (but not published it) 14:41:48 adeht: why don't you publish it? 14:41:48 adeht: the time is now! 14:41:56 ^ that 14:42:00 I think that horse is dead 14:42:09 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:32 how so? 14:44:10 madnificent: some years back I actually cared about arguing against Lisp misconceptions.. I spent a lot of time debunking those on reddit.. nowadays I just "meh" and go back to do something better 14:44:14 adeht: apparently not. Yegge is post is 4 years old, but keeps coming up as if its current. 14:44:20 :) 14:44:44 adeht: also, if you wrote the comments, just post them... I understand you not wanting to spend extra time on arguing about it 14:45:03 *hargettp* agrees with madnificent 14:45:26 uh 14:46:22 well, I still have it somewhere.. maybe sometime I'll polish it and put it somewhere public 14:46:32 adeht: yay! 14:46:34 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:07 I also recall there were many other critiques though 14:48:24 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:49:25 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:05 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 14:51:18 Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:51:27 hi all. 14:52:01 so, just how reckless is (sb-ext:quit :recklessly-p t) ? 14:52:54 Shaftoe_: 5 points off your driver's licence 14:53:24 lol 14:53:30 oh my 14:54:28 I was just noticing that (sb-ext:quit) would always get aborted (by swank?), but *exit-hooks* is nil. So I've just opted to use recklessly instead. 14:54:32 Am I a bad person? 14:59:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:58 Shaftoe_: how does it get aborted? 15:00:01 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:15 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:00:28 if I type it in the REPL: ; Evaluation aborted. 15:00:44 ah, yes 15:00:46 if I do a defun: (defun test () (sb-ext:quit)) and type (test) in repl, same 15:00:56 if I launch a thread: (sb-thread:make-thread #'(lambda () (sb-ext:quit))) 15:00:58 sb-ext:exit just kills the evaluation thread 15:01:17 => 15:01:18 # 15:01:34 yeah, it seems way lower level than anything I want to be bothering with 15:02:14 like I said, it's clearly dynamically binding *exit-hooks*, because in the repl it appears as nil 15:02:37 (either that or it doesn't even use *exit-hooks* and just hard codes) 15:02:44 <_3b`> slime uses lots of threads 15:03:05 <_3b`> so only killing one of them doesn't quit 15:03:21 (sb-ext:quit) is for the image htough. not a thread 15:03:34 *_3b`* usually just kills the buffer 15:03:36 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Quit 15:04:26 <_3b`> see the bit at the top about threading though 15:05:05 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:48 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:05:58 <_3b`> "sb-ext:quit terminates all threads in the current session, but leaves other sessions running." 15:06:05 aye. was just about to paste that. 15:06:09 *_3b`* has no idea how slime interacts with sessions stuff though 15:06:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:06:26 alright. so 5 demerit points on my driver's license it is 15:06:28 =) 15:06:31 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:43 <_3b`> if you don't use slime-scratch much, there is always ,sayoonara 15:06:47 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:07:22 the code is actually meant to be run automatically. (i.e. my goal isn't to type this in the REPL) 15:07:36 (on the image itself) 15:07:51 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.128.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:08:08 Ahh. nice. 15:08:18 I didn't know typing , immediately opened the command prompt 15:08:20 thanks for that one. 15:08:29 <_3b`> ah, dunno then 15:10:19 man, spam is getting ever cheekier these days. 15:12:12 Yeah. 15:13:07 Hrm, do most people use sbcl for their inferior-lisp-mode/slime? 15:13:34 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:50 <_3b`> sbcl or ccl here, testing on others once in a while 15:13:57 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:14:22 demopig: who cares ? 15:14:25 jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has joined #lisp 15:15:21 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:15:24 -!- icecube [~user@p549C6865.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:32 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:39 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:41 icecube [~user@p549C6865.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:46 _3b`: Hrm, alright. 15:16:07 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 15:16:11 Yeah, I'm pretty happy with sbcl so far 15:16:22 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:16:33 I wonder if there's a SLIME for vim. 15:16:48 <_3b`> a few, none as complete 15:17:23 Figures. 15:17:53 <_3b`> vim extension language seems to get in the way of most attempts, or people just give up and use emacs/slime 15:18:45 Well, I saw something called slimv but it doesn't seem very mature. 15:18:53 <_3b`> (or vim architecture, not really sure about the details) 15:19:02 I've been using emacs for a while, but I just wondered if vim was capable of similar stuff. 15:19:48 _3b`: Reminds me of the hilarity that is ZIMBU 15:21:35 Capable is such a slippery word ... 15:22:00 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:03 s/was/were 15:23:40 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:59 Zhivago: Do you use emacs? 15:24:56 I find it simpler, tbh. 15:25:07 Slime made me smile quite a bit. 15:25:53 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:27:03 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:45 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:35 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:38:21 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:42:54 -!- Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:47:55 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:48:13 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:49:18 -!- Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 15:52:17 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 15:52:40 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 15:53:37 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:52 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bfbqbwanxwsderzm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:33 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has joined #lisp 15:58:39 gaustin [~gaustin@97-119-193-126.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-50.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-1-244.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:00:39 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:40 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 16:01:44 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:25 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.152.56] has joined #lisp 16:03:10 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:08 hargettp_ [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 entropax [~entropi@192.55.54.38] has joined #lisp 16:08:01 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:08:02 -!- hargettp_ is now known as hargettp 16:09:00 -!- icecube [~user@p549C6865.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:12:23 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-217-166.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:34 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-35-245.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:17:07 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 16:19:44 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:26:47 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27:13 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:27:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:27:51 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:28:21 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:30 Hello all. 16:28:30 nyef, memo from antifuchs: forgot to re-enable the gateway cron job. Things will be working from now on. 16:29:41 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 16:30:39 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:32:33 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:32:52 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 16:34:57 cowhm [~cowhm@111.sub-97-180-38.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:53 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:50 zbeasnyy [~mornfall@ip-89-102-11-250.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:41:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:41:58 jamief [~jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:42:15 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 16:42:35 there was a lib for lisp who enables executing external command, does someone know how it is called? 16:42:57 cl-shell 16:43:10 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@138.82-134-78.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 16:43:14 external-program 16:44:04 Or, depending on your implementation, possibly the built-in RUN-PROGRAM ? 16:45:25 programm args must all be simple strings for (run-program "dir" "*") 16:45:48 Oh, you want -globbing- as well? 16:46:12 Uhm no, I just want to send it a * (star) 16:46:38 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:46 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 16:46:59 '* #\* "*" all seem equally ugly, but "*" might be easier to understand in the scope of an args list 16:47:01 ... and dir? Really? 16:47:25 (ok, theyr'e not equally ugly :p) 16:47:29 I thought surrounding stuff with "'s makes a simply string? 16:48:04 Actually, is the reader required to produce simple strings, or just strings? 16:48:24 And is it permitted to use base-strings when the contents allow? 16:48:24 simple strings 16:48:45 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:48:58 and the above code returns Error: Program args must all be simple strings : "*" 16:50:50 that looks like a simple string, try '("*") 16:51:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:51:50 what exactly does the ' do? 16:51:54 Lis: that looks like a ccl error message. The args must be a _list_ of strings. 16:52:07 clhs ' 16:52:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm 16:52:14 aaah so ' makes a list 16:52:21 Lis: that's the most basic thing you should know 16:52:46 Lis: no, ' does not make a list 16:53:36 adeht: well, it kinda does! It makes a list with QUOTE in the CAR, and whatever follows it in the CDR ;) 16:53:57 '* would make a symbol with the name "*", methinks 16:54:02 sykopomp: right 16:54:02 so It's like a pointer in c? 16:54:06 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-157-196.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:07 Lis: no 16:54:09 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-157-196.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:54:09 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:54:16 Lis: you're new to lisp, right? 16:54:24 Lis: it quotes the expression that follows it. 16:54:27 Lis: 'foo is just a shorthand for (quote foo).. the result of evaluating this form is the symbol foo 16:54:47 Lis: so the result of evaluating '("*") is ("*"), a list containing one element that is the string "*" 16:55:08 Lis: the quote operator just returns its argument 16:55:10 clhs quote 16:55:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 16:55:14 it's sad seeing such things being explained in here 16:55:22 so it's a lamda thing? 16:55:29 okay, I call troll. 16:55:35 minion: please tell Lis about PCL 16:55:35 Lis: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:55:53 stassats`: that's overkill! 16:55:57 minion: please tell lis about gentle 16:55:58 lis: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:56:15 wow cool, thanks 16:57:05 jmbr_ [~jmbr@vpn222.vpn.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 16:57:08 -!- jamief [~jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has left #lisp 16:57:12 jamief [~jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:38 sykopomp why does asking questions involve a troll? 16:58:04 Lis: it's a pretty common tactic. 16:58:22 Lis: why did you associate lambda with quote? 16:58:26 Lis: you are not allowed to ask questions before you've read Practical Common Lisp 16:58:29 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 16:58:30 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:31 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 16:58:49 Lis: Your questions are so basic, it is like someone shoing up in an IRC channel for C and asking "what is the `;' about". 16:58:54 becouse it returns the object you feed it with... at least thats how I understood your explanation 16:58:57 *showing 16:59:13 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:14 Lis: that is wrong 16:59:16 Lis: no, it does not 16:59:30 the answer given was unclear. 16:59:46 -!- zbeasnyy [~mornfall@ip-89-102-11-250.net.upc.cz] has quit [Quit: the old ways are lost] 16:59:57 Lis: QUOTE returns the argument given to it, not evaluated. 17:00:39 I better read that book first :D 17:00:40 Lis: for example, (lambda ()) does not return () 17:01:13 jmbr__ [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:02:28 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:59 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@vpn222.vpn.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:04:04 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:05 Hello slyrus_. 17:06:03 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 17:07:04 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 17:07:41 sykopomp: Why is PCL overkill? 17:07:46 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:07:50 I'm reading it, haven't had any qualms so far. 17:08:18 hmm. Not overkill. 'too advanced'. 17:08:30 tongue was sort of kind of close to cheek. 17:08:34 maybe! 17:08:47 PCL is fine :) 17:08:59 PCL is very fine 17:09:10 though gentle introduction describes rules of evaluation better 17:09:15 damn fine -> damn sexy 17:09:38  PCL is damn sexy 17:11:38 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:45 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-183-174.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:16:27 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:16:54 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 17:18:01 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 17:19:44 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-179-136.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:13 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 17:27:34 -!- jamief [~jamie@tansur.doc.gold.ac.uk] has left #lisp 17:29:47 someone @ #emacs: #lisp is why nobody uses lisp. 17:29:49 comments? 17:30:32 pmd: Trying to start a cross-channel flame war or something? 17:30:56 *Xach* doesn't care what a random person in #emacs thinks about #lisp or CL 17:31:15 We use lisp. We are not nobody. #emacs is why people keep coming here for emacs-lisp help. 17:31:20 Xach: no, otherwise i'd post the nick 17:31:34 "#lisp, harming CL industry since 2003" 17:31:55 Xach: really, i'd like some comments, because i've read similar things about comp.lang.lisp 17:31:56 "#lisp considered harmful" 17:32:20 presumably the truly awful IRC channels filled with idiots for very popular languages like PHP can do no harm :) 17:32:30 pmd: you can read similar things all over the internet 17:32:53 some even specifically blame 50 years old of this channel 17:33:04 Actually, let's go one further: People don't use lisp for a variety of reasons, but #lisp and comp.lang.lisp serve as good proxies for their real reasons. 17:33:24 nyef: i agree 17:33:36 #emacs, mutilating programmer's hands since 1974 17:33:37 I think he's just asking what Lispers like about Lisp. 17:33:58 Hraban: Find me a SLIME for vim that works :) 17:34:18 just use the mouse :P 17:34:20 wow. IRC wars, language wars, and editor wars, all in one conversation! 17:34:43 *demopig* sighs. 17:34:47 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 17:34:53 maybe we should talk about software licensing and copyright now, too. 17:35:12 i think is better than 17:35:45 Nah, the appropriate thing to discuss next is actually european politics and gun control laws. 17:35:57 ah yes. 17:36:08 human rights and china 17:36:18 I guess it's boredom hour everywhere. 17:36:21 (Things got -weird- here at night several years ago.) 17:36:49 it's lunch time in the midwest! 17:36:51 Well, I'm semi-bored. Just kicked off an SBCL build, and have one more to do afterwards before I can do today's commits. 17:37:17 Hrm. 17:37:25 (Which will break PPC/non-linux. Guaranteed.) 17:37:34 SBCL 1.0.29.11.debian :( 17:37:44 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:37:47 nyef: what kind of goodies do you have queued? 17:37:52 nyef: and nothing of value was lost? 17:38:03 mega1: Today's stuff is GC work. 17:38:30 stabilizing? 17:38:40 Cleanup and stabilization, yes. 17:38:57 Unifying the two versions of interrupt-context scavenging, for example. 17:39:04 And dealing with the interior-pointer disaster. 17:39:21 pmd: some people are very opinionated about political correctness in channels and forums and if they don't receive the treatment they expect, they just inveigh against #lisp/c.l.l. 17:40:14 The next batch after this is a number of runtime cleanups for threaded operation on non-x86oids. 17:40:34 And after that there's just PPC stuff for GC invariant cleanups and threading support. 17:41:07 nyef: what happened to larger fixnums? 17:41:43 Umm... That's a good question, actually. 17:41:46 -!- jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:42:51 I'll put that in my queue for reevaluation. There's something wrong with it in terms of the type system that's not caught by the test suite, I remember that much, but nothing beyond that. 17:42:53 *stassats`* is hoping for some cool changes, like larger fixnums, twofold performance improvements, etc. 17:46:36 Tell you what, if you have some ideas as to -how- to get those twofold performance improvements, let me know. 17:47:13 <_3b`> well, if you have a bunch of PPC cores, ppc threading might work for that :) 17:47:28 Only have two PPC cores, I'm afraid. 17:47:43 <_3b`> well, still might work for the right workloads 17:48:12 one could do only half the work... that ought to result in a 2x speedup... 17:48:25 And PPC threading is going to land soon. And by "soon", I mean "it will be in 1.0.42." 17:48:29 fe[nl]ix: so lisp has handled all this trouble quite nicely, given its 50 years 17:48:48 so lisp is for the strong of mind 17:49:05 sure, the result wont be correct, but it will be fast. This has been good enough for C programmers all these years! 17:50:55 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@catv-89-133-25-46.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:52:39 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.152.56] has quit [Quit: bye!] 17:53:50 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 17:54:54 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:57:40 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:28 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:33 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:03:27 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:03:36 Strange time to be adding PPC threading :) 18:04:07 rsynnott: What, a scant handful of months after obtaining a decent PPC system? 18:05:06 adding a new mast when the boat is sinking :) 18:05:54 It also paves the way for precise register scavenging on x86-64, and thread support on other targets, including ARM should anyone finish an ARM port. 18:06:21 nyef: well, I was thinking more 'just as the last consumer PPC systems are going away' 18:06:34 I assume the system's a g5? 18:06:46 Yeah, it is. 18:06:58 And what do you mean "the last consumer PPC systems are going away"? 18:07:06 *nyef* points to the Wii, which has a PPC-style CPU. 18:07:11 or consumer PCs, rather 18:07:18 yep, all the games consoles still use them 18:07:29 and probably will for a while; they're VERY cheap 18:07:31 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:39 Leads to the question, though, will we start to see PPC laptops again? 18:07:53 I mean, we already see MIPS laptops on occasion, right? 18:08:14 and one or two ARMs, yep 18:08:37 unfortunately, the only company doing serious work on laptop-appropriate chips was bought by Apple 18:09:06 for purposes which remain a bit mysterious; turns out that the A4 work was done by ANOTHER chip-maker bought by Apple 18:09:59 Strategic move: Denial of resources to competition? 18:11:35 probably not that much of a market for their products, though 18:11:58 they weren't really ARM-competitors; more proper-laptop/desktop space 18:12:37 (it was widely expected that Apple would use them in their laptops, and apparently negotiations had started, but then Apple abruptly jumped ship to Intel) 18:15:13 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:51 Apple is amazing, in a way. They switched the underlying CPU architecture on their flagship computer line -twice-, and got away with it. 18:19:12 the first time was more amazing than the second. 18:19:20 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: (* (! t) nil)] 18:19:38 True. Having the interrupt-handling path for -every- hardware interrupt go via a CPU emulator was impressive. 18:19:49 the first emulator was practically flawless, and ran 95% of the OS itself as well as apps. 18:20:42 nyef: I don't know what the first time was, but the second time around, they had plenty of money to go around :) 18:21:05 sykopomp: Are you going to ILC? 18:21:53 Xach: most likely not :( 18:21:55 foom: the first time was also _extremely_ slow, though 18:22:03 the transition took years 18:22:10 sykopomp: The first time was when they moved from 680x0 to PPC. 18:22:20 sykopomp: why on earth not? it's practically local to you. 18:22:32 I'll forever live in regret at missing out on the last ILC. I was 2 hours away from Boston :( 18:22:38 rsynnott: yeah but the emulator was fast! 18:22:40 Heh. "Took years" is one way to look at it. Did they -ever- have a native-mode Finder before moving to OSX? 18:22:42 there was also a sort of a third time, in between; MacOS9 to MacOS10 18:22:45 Xach: Mostly time and money issues. 18:23:05 nyef: I think so. 18:23:08 not a hardware change, but a massive software one, and handled surprisingly gracefully 18:23:11 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 18:23:11 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 18:23:11 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 18:23:12 nyef: I think they ported the finder to Carbon at some point 18:23:16 nyef: yeah; I think they got rid of the last around 8.0 18:23:28 rsynnott: they never "got rid of the last" 18:23:35 no? 18:23:38 rsynnott: the OS had 68k code in it to the end. 18:23:47 bizarre 18:23:49 Xach: ...also, NV is very far away. 18:23:58 why bother rewriting the bits not on a speed-critical path? 18:24:00 it worked great. :) 18:24:00 PPC->x86 was less convenient, of course 18:24:14 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:24:39 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:24:51 opens the possibility of a non-ARM iphone, of course; maybe even a magic-ppc one 18:25:48 mega1: Actually, now that I think of it, there seems to be something wrong with SBCL's interrupt-handling and deferral mechanisms... 18:25:59 uh-oh 18:26:08 *Xach* suddenly realizes that gavino is practically local to reno, too 18:26:14 mega1: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/handling-unix-signals-from-sbcl.txt 18:26:25 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 18:26:43 is it related to how we exit signal handlers? 18:27:04 mega1: I was already a little worried, given the possibility of calling ENABLE-INTERRUPT on a non-deferred signal, but then Fare tried to handle SIGCHLD... 18:27:17 It's related to the deferrable signal sets. 18:27:39 Xach: D: 18:28:00 I've got a pile of signal-handling stuff to go in soon, just for the PPC stuff, but even there I've left some known holes. 18:28:17 *mega1* is reading 18:29:10 -!- _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:29 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 18:29:38 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:42 mega1: What're you reading. 18:31:56 DeadPanda [~Brett@host86-150-115-114.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:18 demopig: the linked file from nyef above 18:32:21 demopig: Presumably, the draft article I posted a link to... 18:32:31 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.252] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 -!- DeadPanda [~Brett@host86-150-115-114.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:56 Ah. 18:33:18 any lispbuilder-sdl users? is there an easy method to set a single pixel? 18:33:38 nyef: it sounds reasonable to defer only those signals that may cause lisp code to run 18:33:58 mega1: That's what I thought. Still ends up requiring an audit, though. 18:34:15 but frobbing the deferrable_signals var is racy 18:34:24 Yeah, I know. 18:34:55 I mean there can be threads blocking the old set from before the new lisp handler was added. 18:34:56 oh, (draw-pixel and (draw-pixel-* 18:34:59 astalla [~astalla@93-36-227-190.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:35:12 But, as far as this particular application goes, it can easily be covered by doing it in only one thread and when no child is running. 18:35:33 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.73.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:35:45 that's not enough 18:35:47 Actually, not if it's set up right. The problem comes when -removing- a lisp handler when a thread has it deferred. 18:36:07 nyef, mega1: we need to run a C handler for SIGCHLD 18:36:34 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 18:37:04 it's a problem if you run lisp code in a pseudo atomic 18:37:09 Seriously, though, add a handler for SIGWINCH that does a GC, then start firing SIGWINCH at the system while it tries to do something else. 18:37:13 and that's what can happen in the first case. 18:37:25 Or pick any other non-deferrable signal. 18:37:44 electriceloquenc [~anonymous@pool-71-178-112-102.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:47 gc sounds good 18:38:01 GC in PA? 18:38:06 -!- electriceloquenc [~anonymous@pool-71-178-112-102.washdc.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:38:07 I have to go now, will be back in 1.5 hours. 18:38:18 ah 18:38:19 Fair enough. 18:38:25 Have fun. 18:38:53 Possibly by the time you get back I'll have done the next round of commits (the GC fixes). 18:40:01 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:21 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:43:00 pregier [~pregier@somalia.ittc.ku.edu] has joined #lisp 18:43:30 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:49 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:45:06 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:44 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 18:46:20 is there any web server/framework that doesn't emphasize on "continuations" but on events? I am going to write AJAX heavy app. 18:47:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-149-150.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:48:01 and I don't want something thread based (like is apache) but something like nginx 18:48:21 or node.js probably 18:48:38 minion: hunchentoot? 18:48:38 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a robust and easy to use HTTP server. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 18:48:57 -!- oconnore [~eric@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49:03 Does CL have dynamic scope? 18:49:12 it does 18:49:19 stassats`: Verifiable? 18:49:25 josemanuel [~josemanue@153.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:49:42 verifiable on what? 18:49:52 Without CLOS I mean. 18:50:23 Sure, CL had dynamic scoped variables well before it had CLOS. 18:50:28 By something like a decade. 18:50:33 demopig: i can't put these two facts together to construct a meaningful question 18:50:43 nyef: only a decade? 18:50:49 oh, CL 18:50:56 sykopomp: CLtL1 to ANSI, yes. 18:51:31 lexical scoping was an addition in CL 18:51:39 not dynamic 18:52:24 Hrm. 18:52:26 can i get in my 'special variables suck, but dynamic scoping rocks' rant here? 18:52:30 Someone is just saying otherwise. 18:52:48 drewc: We'll take it as read, thanks. 18:52:50 With an air of certainty, so I just wanted to verify. 18:53:04 demopig: saying what? 18:53:08 So, PPC/non-Linux is broken as of 1.0.41.14. 18:53:41 nyef: To your earlier sentence "Sure, CL ..." he responded "That sentence does not imply that dynamically scoped variables were default at any point in CL history." 18:54:36 Actually, lexical scope is default for any variable name introduced via LET-binding or as a function parameter, but dynamic scope is used for any declared variable. 18:54:36 It doesn't matter either way, just wanted to confirm. 18:54:58 All this copying-pasting is getting on my nerves too. 18:55:01 demopig: unlike CLOS, dynamic scoping is part of CL's special forms ;) 18:55:25 *sykopomp* imagines the amusing idea of DEFCLASS/DEFGENERIC being special forms. 18:55:48 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:55:51 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:13 zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:27 timor [~timor@port-92-195-78-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:32 sykopomp: defun and defmacro aren't special either 18:56:36 what does that mean? 18:56:46 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ilnquruywhccpnar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:22 stassats`: well, I meant more along the lines of significant parts of CLOS being special forms. 18:58:52 then i can't understand what you mean 18:59:42 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:59:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:00 Morning 19:00:16 stassats`: My interpretation of special forms is that they communicate the 'core' semantics of the language. I interpret not having directly CLOS-related forms be special forms (something like methodlet, for example) to mean that CLOS isn't as 'core' as dynamic variables. 19:00:41 sykopomp: do you know the reason for the introduction of symbol macros? 19:00:45 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:51 adeht: with-slots? 19:01:03 yes, iirc 19:01:19 sykopomp: my interpretation is that they either affect the control flow or modify the environment 19:01:57 stassats`: they do, but not everything that affects control flow or modifies the environment has to be a special form. 19:02:04 so then the question is 'why _these_?' 19:02:14 Why don't we just make SKI the special forms? :) 19:02:16 sykopomp: there are a few places in CL where CLOS is indeed relegated to a second-class citizen 19:02:21 sykopomp: e.g., conditions 19:02:36 /whois adeht 19:02:37 adeht: there's places in CL where _lambda_ is relegated to a second class citizen. 19:02:42 e.g., conditions 19:03:00 sykopomp: it'll be either a special form, or a macro which uses a special form eventually 19:03:16 adeht: call-next-method, I think 19:03:23 stassats`: but why choose a particular set of special forms? 19:03:28 if all you need is S and K... 19:03:49 ok, this is pointless 19:04:09 splittist: what about it? 19:04:20 stassats`: less ridiculously, why not if/set!/lambda/quote? 19:04:32 adeht: Symbo 19:04:44 l macros 19:04:57 splittist: what does call-next-method need symbolmacros for? 19:05:08 splittist: ?.. call-next-method is a local function 19:05:14 ^ 19:05:36 splittist: there's of course all this hackery with make-method-lambda 19:06:28 what hackery are you talking about? 19:07:39 nyef: I am still making the trie. I tried to make a print-object method, but just found about :type and :named options on defstruct. This is going to be easy. :-) 19:07:46 sykopomp: the introduction of those local functions (and with MOP, of your own) 19:08:06 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-192-173.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:08:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-149-150.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:08:07 sykopomp: there's discussion in AMOP about environment access 19:08:09 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 19:08:11 I like lisp, because it is like building the lego bricks. Everything just fits together perfectly. 19:08:13 peterhil: ... You realize that the :type option is rarely-used for a reason, right? 19:08:21 Why? 19:08:36 Because it makes the struct seem like lists or vectors? 19:08:41 nyef: to defclass? 19:08:45 oh, to defstruct. 19:09:03 Right. Completely defeats TYPE-OF. 19:09:21 I've a terminology question: which term do you use for malicious part of a code? 19:09:40 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:53 sid3k: hax 19:09:56 the fun-part obviously 19:09:58 lol 19:10:06 I might as well implement the trie using lists, so I see no problem. 19:10:08 i'd better not have malicious parts in my code 19:10:10 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:10:45 sid3k: backdoor, logic bomb, payload.. 19:10:46 stassats`: my program reads malicious codes from a list and tests security libraries 19:10:47 is it considered malicious when you have a colorfully-worded condition to prevent users from doing Very Stupid Things? 19:11:06 I first thought of making it using cons cells, but struct seemed handier. And objects take more space, although could be otherwise more useful. 19:11:26 zc00gii: If you want to set more than one pixel, then use sdl:with-pixels. 19:11:27 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:11:32 I need to be able to store huge amount of data in the trie. 19:11:52 I've been working on a program getting xss attack codes from a list and sends test requests to a website written in a crappy language 19:11:56 Huge being 100MB to gigabyte. 19:11:58 peterhil: Have you considered using arrays? 19:12:08 Err... gigabyte? 19:12:09 peterhil: did you consider using, say, fixnums? 19:12:23 I'm not sure your heap will take a gigabyte. 19:12:33 I'm very sure that my heap won't take a gigabyte. 19:12:53 on x86? 19:12:59 Well, actually I don't need quite that much. I can use a sliding window on the data. 19:13:59 sykopomp: what does hax mean? is it suitable to highlight malicious part of a code placed on its above in a code list? 19:14:31 sid3k: otherwise spelled as h4x. It is what h4x0rz write. 19:14:46 what does it mean? 19:14:49 hack? 19:15:00 I'm not familiar with that stuff 19:15:15 ugh, textspeak 19:15:20 or some close relative, anyway 19:15:30 <_3b`> rsynnott: ancestor maybe? :p 19:15:40 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:42 whoever decided that that arbitrary 160char limit was a good idea should be shot 19:15:57 <_3b`> 'elite' is a bit older than 'text' :) 19:15:59 balooga: unfortunately, it isn't shown in the doxygen-like docs 19:16:07 balooga: how is it used? 19:16:09 (for a while there actually were text message systems that went up to 65k, but they required special phone-side software and never caught on) 19:16:10 right, everybody knows that it's 72 19:16:30 nyef: Arrays are an option too. I will try other options if needed. 19:18:30 i'd guess the array will have the same overhead as structures, unless you use one array for several objects 19:18:52 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.37] has joined #lisp 19:19:26 -!- oconnor [~eric@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:20:01 stassats`: I think it does. I tested with graphiz how much memory different types of nodes consume. Structs consume one 8 bytes for each slot plus slot contents. 19:20:13 zc00gii: Hi 19:21:13 I found a handy utility to print the cons cell structure of objects. 19:21:19 peterhil: that's if you're not storing your content in these 8 bytes 19:21:45 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21:51 dtrace ? 19:21:54 sdraw ? 19:21:59 peterhil: you can have specialized slots, and specialized arrays, which will store data immediately 19:22:29 the advantage of structures is that you can have some slots specialized, and some not 19:22:31 stassats`: I just said that... "plus slot contents." 19:22:49 anyway, I want to ask a algorith question. Imagine a program taking a list of malicious html codes and posts this code to test script of purify libraries to test security of them. I'm getting list from this page: ha.ckers.org/xss.html. Test script of the purifying libraries takes those codes and returns cleared one. My program will display Fail message when a library can't clear the given malicious code. But How can I be sure about that 19:22:49 response of a library is cleared or not? my current solution is to put an extra property named "match", containing malicious part of the code and test response of the library whether it contains that part or not 19:22:50 peterhil: which can be 0 19:23:02 I know 19:23:08 any ideas? 19:25:58 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:26:07 -!- benny [~user@i577A7A2B.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:55 I want to ask a algorith question. Imagine a program taking a 19:26:55 list of malicious html codes and posts this code to test script of 19:26:55 purify libraries to test security of them. I'm getting list from this 19:26:59 page: ha.ckers.org/xss.html. Test script of the purifying libraries 19:27:02 takes those codes and returns cleared one. My program will display 19:27:05 Fail message when a library can't clear the given malicious code. But 19:27:08 How can I be sure about that 19:27:11 response of a library is cleared or not? my current solution is to put 19:27:14 an extra property named "match", containing malicious part of the code 19:27:17 fck, sorry guys 19:28:09 peterhil: and in case of arrays, you can store several items in a single machine word 19:28:28 ... How on -earth- did we survive without git? 19:28:52 We had darcs. 19:29:09 Not for SBCL we didn't. 19:29:15 nyef: I wondered the same thing a while ago. 19:29:44 It's true that DVCS changed life... 19:29:51 *sykopomp* wonders how the tables turned on mercurial. 19:31:17 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:21 is there any lisp tools relating to spice (not "spice lisp")? 19:32:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.154.74] has joined #lisp 19:33:02 autocad's scriopting language? 19:33:06 scripting* 19:33:11 spice as in food additive? 19:33:12 if they still use it 19:33:29 spice was an electric simulation software too. 19:33:50 zc00gii: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/source/browse/trunk/lispbuilder-sdl/examples/pixels.lisp#22 19:33:55 SPICE (Simulation Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis 19:33:57 ) 19:34:53 or the spice girls 19:35:27 ouch, overloading.. spice as in electronics. Would like ffi bindings or netlist<->sexp 19:35:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.59.134] has joined #lisp 19:36:07 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:36:19 zc00gii: I haven't written the API documentation for it yet. But that example shows how to use it. 19:36:44 balooga: thanks 19:36:57 -!- gaustin [~gaustin@97-119-193-126.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: gaustin] 19:37:08 ace4016: Wasn't autocad's scripting language AutoLISP? 19:37:37 (Spice Lisp was an old academic project that almost nobody's ever heard of.) 19:37:45 balooga: I was going to just going to open up base/pixel.lisp and file it, but thanks :) 19:37:56 yea; though now that i think about it, i'm not sure how much electronics autcad does anymore 19:38:06 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:08 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-219.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:51 balooga: it doesn't show with-pixels :| 19:40:04 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:09 xristos: Hello :) 19:40:15 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:40:47 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:49 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.219] has joined #lisp 19:42:05 stassats`: Actually I could store the child nodes as an array. 19:42:13 Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:56 It's a long shot but is anyone who worked/developed RCL (http://common-lisp.net/project/rcl/) around here? 19:43:54 francogrex: I haven't but I wrote my own using sb-alien a while back 19:44:34 slyrus: using cffi I suppose? 19:44:42 nice 19:44:44 no, sb-alien 19:45:22 slyrus: i see; it's sbcl specific then. quite a nice task :) 19:47:45 zc00gii: What do you mean? 19:48:15 zc00gii: The example doesn't work? 19:48:50 balooga: no, I'm saying it doesn't show how to use with-pixels, only with-pixel, no s 19:49:10 but, I think I get it 19:49:14 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-109-192-209-061.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:15 it's like a let binding 19:50:29 hello, after half a year-ish of not looking at lisp i'm trying to find my way back in and immediately stalled at parsing a string word by word. it's probably trivial, but how do i parse a string? :( 19:50:55 cl-ppcre split 19:51:05 bad_alloc: using subseq maybe? 19:51:15 also 19:51:43 jewel: ppcre? 19:51:51 bad_alloc: cl-ppcre:split 19:51:57 -!- emma is now known as em 19:52:00 bad_alloc: see also: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre 19:52:10 minion: split-sequence? 19:52:11 split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 19:52:12 bad_alloc: that is one of many ways, but it's pretty easy. 19:52:51 kay, thanks :) 19:53:01 Lis [~Lis@p5B2041B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:01 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:55:52 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-109-192-209-061.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:56:08 toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:57:38 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:58:46 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.122] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:59:55 -!- toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:39 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:56 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:03:56 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:05:49 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:05:58 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:07:43 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:09:57 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has joined #lisp 20:10:52 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:13:16 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:23 I found interesting page comparing syntax accross different languages: http://rigaux.org/language-study/syntax-across-languages/ 20:14:10 You can also select one language, to have a handy "cheat sheet": http://rigaux.org/language-study/syntax-across-languages-per-language/CommonLisp.html 20:14:36 minion: tell peterhil about clqr 20:14:37 peterhil: direct your attention towards clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 20:15:24 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:42 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:17:43 stassats`: Thanks! I already printed the HyperSpec page on loop, and added similar markings as the diagrams on this one! This is very useful. 20:17:47 stassats`: does that booklet contain _all_ symbols in the hyperspec? 20:17:52 yes 20:17:58 nice 20:19:35 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:24 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.155] has joined #lisp 20:22:32 -!- Lis [~Lis@p5B2041B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:22:50 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:05 Ok, now I just have to remember how to bind a book... :-) 20:24:18 And have a press and suitable glue. 20:24:24 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 20:24:30 Hi 20:24:46 what is the customary way to set waypoints using SLIME 20:25:02 what is a waypoint? 20:25:09 sorry 20:25:15 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:16 s/waypoint/breakpoint 20:25:32 inserting (break) and recompiling 20:25:49 Now that's something that'd be nice to re-add to SBCL... The ability to set breakpoints without recompiling. 20:26:33 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:35 ok thanks, i don't mind recompiling 20:28:08 Do plists act as hashes or dictionaries in CL? 20:28:32 I guess it matters less when you can just edit the source and recompile a single function. 20:28:45 demopig: Mu. 20:29:01 nyef: Not sure what "mu" is 20:29:06 <_3b`> plists are used in similar situations to hash tables, as are alists 20:29:06 demopig: you can use them as dictionaries, but over a certain size, it's much better to just use a hash. also, plists are bound toa symbol (iirc - I might be wrong, I don't use them) 20:29:11 Mu is a classic way to "unask" a question. 20:29:13 demopig: just use hash tables... 20:29:18 <_3b`> they are not implemented as hash tables though 20:29:19 demopig: Mu is a weird answer that is neither. Unasking the question, in a way 20:29:20 demopig: it means your question is wrong 20:29:22 ("Have you stopped beating your wife yet?") 20:29:38 A plist is one way to associate values with keys. There are other ways to do that, too, such as hash tables. 20:29:56 rme: Fair enough 20:30:08 <_3b`> p_l: plists are not limited to symbols, they are the general term for the layou used for symbol property lists (and named for property lists) 20:30:09 Guthur [~michael@host86-132-122-162.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:20 _3b`: ah. okay 20:30:24 ... And what's the difference between a "hash table" and a "dictionary", anyway? They seem rather the same to me. 20:30:30 demopig: see?stuff can get confusing :D 20:30:42 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:08 nyef: the hash table is an implementation of a dictionary. 20:31:10 demopig: plist are O(n) acess on averange, hash tables are O(1) 20:31:22 pkhuong_: Ah, okay. So either way, a key-value store? 20:31:23 <_3b`> plists and alists have the advantage over hash tables of being able to easily add an entry with dynamic scope, though if you need that a lot, some sort of tree would probably be better 20:31:35 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:37 nyef: right. 20:31:46 p_l: I never said it couldn't. 20:31:50 _3b`: Umm... -what-? 20:31:52 marioxcc: O(n) worst case 20:31:53 _3b`: or just do it with unwind-protect and shallow binding. 20:32:03 p_l: But I'm not very confused at this point 20:32:27 <_3b`> pkhuong_: not sure that qualifies as 'easily' :) 20:32:36 nyef: shadowing existing keys? 20:32:57 <_3b`> nyef: stuff like (let ((*foo* (list* :new-key :new-value *foo*))) ...) 20:33:09 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 20:33:46 <_3b`> like when building a lexical environment while codewalking 20:34:01 _3b`: I'd do it with hash tables still. 20:34:34 _3b`: Sure, but that's not entirely the p/alist there. 20:34:45 What did I start 20:34:56 nyef: I'm back 20:35:09 mega1: Welcome back. 20:35:15 <_3b`> yeah, was about to say i probably went a bit beyond the scope of the original question :) 20:35:35 I committed my GC changes. 20:35:42 _3b`: Haha 20:35:57 *_3b`* goes back to what i'm supposed to be working on :) 20:36:38 *attila_lendvai* had some fun reading nyef's commit messages. the messages themselves were somewhat educational... 20:36:44 stassats`: sure, but if the worst case is expected a tree is usually better: http://enfranchisedmind.com/blog/posts/problems-with-hash-tables/ 20:36:53 -!- NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:56 attila_lendvai: Oh? Glad you enjoyed them. 20:37:07 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-14-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:38 nyef: what I meant two hours ago is that doing a GC stops all threads. So adding a new deferrable at runtime then GCing before installing the handler should be enough to prevent the kind of race I was worrying about. 20:37:47 seriously? "Oh noes, probabilistic data structures are probabilistic"? 20:38:22 attila_lendvai: What, in particular, am I doing right here, so that I know to keep doing it? 20:38:40 pkhuong_: i mean real time life-critical software and so... 20:39:34 nyef: well, mostly working on something interesting and writing informative commit messages for small commits, pointing out the problem and the implemented solution... :) 20:39:41 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 20:39:43 Ah. 20:39:52 So the small batch size is a win? 20:40:05 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.154.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:41 nyef: we're also fooling around with implementing vm's, and while we have the highlevel view/ideas, we pretty much miss the ugly details you're dealing with in those commits 20:41:17 nyef: yeah, i definitely prefer small commits if the effort required to separate them is reasonable 20:41:23 attila_lendvai: Fair enough. The next six deal with some of the pervasive non-threadedness of the runtime, 20:41:30 marioxcc: there are hash tables for that too, especially lookups. I'd also make sure to be worried about gamma rays. 20:41:35 ... separate them? What? 20:42:16 Most of these patches are their original size and shape. 20:42:51 nyef: i meant the effort to keep the commits small, as opposed to let's fix this, but then clean up that, oh, but that's lame there too... kinda large commits 20:43:10 Ah. But that's a minor discipline thing. 20:43:28 sometimes keeping a fix small is hard, because it requires cleaning up random interrelated things... 20:43:55 And being able to say "oh, this is broken, and should have been fixed before I even started this" and then fix it and send the fix "back in time" to where it belongs is really nice. 20:44:13 but darcs/git help a lot with that... 20:44:26 You'll notice that the stuff I'm commiting is fairly coherent in terms of what gets messed with in each batch? 20:44:46 It wasn't developed that way, I just kept using git rebase --interactive. 20:45:08 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:32 although i still need to find the reasonable use-cases with git so that we can become friends... 20:45:56 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:06 nyef: git rebase is the best for stuff like that 20:46:06 things like git stash show -u stash@{1} doesn't reallty help... 20:46:11 nyef: nice patches, btw 20:46:58 attila_lendvai: Oh, I never SHOW my stash. It's for short-enough term storage that I tend not to forget what's in there. 20:47:00 *attila_lendvai* has a separate section for git in his notes.txt 20:47:25 froydnj: Thanks. 14 down, 25 to go. 20:48:04 attila_lendvai: The other trick I like is git add --interactive or git add --patch. 20:48:21 nyef: will they be committed today? 20:48:29 i'm already rebuilding SBCL 20:48:38 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:48:41 *attila_lendvai* adds that to his notes to try next time facing the horror of git's interface 20:48:49 stassats`: No, six are for tomorrow, and the rest are PPC-specific. 20:48:54 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 20:48:56 I can't really conquer make-array 20:48:59 attila_lendvai: emacs's patch mode. 20:49:02 (make-array 5) --> #(0 0 0 0 0) 20:49:37 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:37 nyef: ppc-specific doesn't mean it won't break things, i'm building for testing and such 20:49:50 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:50:02 stassats`: And, actually, these next six are ones that I need to cross-test on all of my target platforms to make sure I didn't break anything. 20:50:19 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:50:45 pkhuong_: you mean that git add --patch can be used together with emacs's patch mode? and it's recommended because it simplifies thing? 20:50:47 i wish there were guides like "git for emacs users -- latest recommended best practices"... 20:50:52 that's just a 1 dimensional array with 5 elements 20:50:52 In this case, ppc-specific means "does not touch non-ppc code at all", with one exception which falls under the "cannot possibly break" category. 20:51:02 attila_lendvai: I do that, but it's probably not recommended. 20:51:05 how can I get a true 5 dimensional array? 20:51:09 something like..... 20:51:20 zc00gii: (make-array '(2 2 2 2 2)) ? 20:51:48 nyef: ah, thank you 20:51:54 clhs make-array 20:51:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 20:51:56 Might help. 20:52:13 <_3b`> git gui makes it easy to add single hunks/lines of changes to a commit (right click in the diff window) 20:52:31 is the same as git add --patch 20:52:44 *sykopomp* really likes git add --patch 20:52:46 i'm using the default VC, but there is some more fancy git-mode 20:52:58 żmagit? 20:53:05 *_3b`* needs to try out magit one of these days, looks like it does some nice stuff 20:53:16 i like VC because it also works with cvs, etc. 20:53:29 pkhuong_: well, i very much miss the way you can chose change-by-change with darcs, so i'll take a look at that next time i git 20:53:36 which are faster? lists or arrays? 20:53:44 *_3b`* is still using the default 'new VCS' strategy of using whichever mode claims to act like pcl-cvs :p 20:53:48 attila_lendvai: you can also diff specific files. 20:53:51 zc00gii: wrong question 20:53:51 zc00gii: faster at doing what? 20:54:00 (or commit specific files) 20:54:08 sykopomp: faster in general 20:54:19 zc00gii: red is much faster. 20:54:21 zc00gii: I think you need to grab a basic data structures and algorithms book. 20:54:26 I'm almost to the point of scripting away the whole git->cvs committage thing. Being able to say "take commits between hash N and hash N from git and commit them to CVS with appropriate version frobbing" would be nice. 20:54:40 As a rule of thumb, you probably want to use an array by default if you're worried about memory usage or computation time. 20:54:45 sykopomp: well, I assume arrays 20:54:47 zc00gii: generally vectors, but then stick to simple vectors, and there are tasks where lists can be faster due to they better fitting the problem 20:55:04 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55:15 well, each cell will contain an assoc list, does that change anything? 20:55:35 nyef: i'd put that effort into what's missing from moving to git as primary 20:55:38 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:44 nyef: there is a command with a suggestive name git-cvsexportcommit 20:55:48 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-12914.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:47 zc00gii: it depends on your usage pattern 20:57:09 stassats`: it'll be like, a 800x700 array 20:57:17 attila_lendvai: magit lets you stage individual hunks or lines from within emacs; it's very useful 20:57:29 stassats`: Yes. I have that part down. And a shell script to frob the version numbers in version-number.lisp-expr and to prepend to the commit message. 20:57:31 you can do the same thing from the command-line, I guess 20:58:07 attila_lendvai: Actually, it's starting to look like what's missing is the will to make the change. 20:58:21 zc00gii: usage means how do you access your data, how do you modify it 20:58:25 *attila_lendvai* makes notes 20:58:38 attila_lendvai: Until that change is made, though, I'll spend some effort on reducing the pain of dealing with CVS. 20:58:38 zc00gii: anyway, that's a very basic thing to be discussed here 20:58:39 git commit -i or maybe -p 20:58:42 stassats`: setf + (assoc) 21:00:14 i should do something similar for accessing slime cvs repository 21:00:54 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:01:45 I'm playing with hunchentoot in slime. There is one thing that I don't like at all about it. The sbcl process take up 140 megabytes of RAM. Do I have to live with it, or will it be much better when it's deployed? 21:02:35 Do you have very little RAM, or a reason to be concerned about that kind of memory usage? 21:02:51 loxs: Is that actual RAM, or is it showing the massive overcommit used for reserving the heap space? 21:03:09 oh good point 21:03:09 140mb doesn't sound like overcommit 21:03:44 loxs: there are other lisp implementations you can choose from with different performance and memory usage profiles. 21:03:44 stassats`: On a 32-bit box? 21:03:53 nyef: yes 21:04:01 Okay. 21:04:02 nyef: it's around 512M there 21:04:19 *nyef* stopped worrying about running system size a while ago. 21:05:09 and SBCL will not automagically consume less memory if your code isn't optimal in that regard 21:05:47 here is the memory usage: VIRT: 8280M, RES: 140M, SHR:28072 21:05:49 how well does (optimize space) work on SBCL? I've never actually tried it. 21:06:21 sykopomp: i've seen it producing larger code than with (space 1) 21:06:28 that's sad 21:06:33 sykopomp, I have lots of RAM on my laptop, but not the same on my linode (where I will deploy my website if I choose to write it in CL) 21:06:33 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:06:34 sykopomp: not that much. 21:06:47 it plays a bit with inlining and padding for inline constants. 21:06:58 Otherwise, I'm not sure what else is consistently affected. 21:10:19 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:30 compiling with (debug 0) may be more saving 21:11:45 <_3b`> might also try running 32bit sbcl, i think it is a bit smaller 21:12:58 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:44 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:07 decided to put my (incomplete) dbus client library online: http://github.com/death/dbus 21:16:28 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:58 i put incomplete stuff online for backup purposes 21:22:52 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:28:41 nyef: I've had a membar problem on x86 for the first time today (: Too tired to figure out where it is, I just made everything into a CAS. 21:30:31 Heh. 21:30:50 pkhuong_: Let me know if I need to tweak anything once you -do- figure it out. 21:31:09 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:35:04 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:23 I'm reimplementing for quick reader-writer locks. 21:36:19 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host10-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:37:51 -!- akamaus [~maus@94.231.115.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:38:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-50.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39:34 schoene [~mark@cpe-65-189-214-151.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:21 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 21:44:45 -!- rme [rme@clozure-12B5D59B.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 21:45:22 xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.88] has joined #lisp 21:45:54 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-49.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:48:24 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:09 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-12914.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:51:18 drwho [~drwho@184.77.143.32] has joined #lisp 21:52:11 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-35-245.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 21:53:31 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 21:53:33 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-227-190.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 21:53:39 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@153.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:53:41 -!- schoene [~mark@cpe-65-189-214-151.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:54:28 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-131.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:56:35 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 Fullma [~fullma@41.249.99.65] has joined #lisp 21:57:06 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:58:44 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 21:59:14 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:27 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:57 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 22:01:34 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:45 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:02:06 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has left #lisp 22:02:32 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.86.215.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:16 I'm wanting to make pairs (not assoc lists, mind you) generated for every cooridant possible with any given grid dimensions 22:09:24 what's the easiest way to do that? 22:10:14 why do you want to do that? 22:11:02 ... "cooridant"? 22:11:44 that's a hard word to spell 22:11:54 And, wow, even assuming "coordinate", there's a huge number of presuppositions in that statement. 22:12:26 I even see a possible presupposition for integer coordinates. 22:12:28 nyef: shut it, I'm high 22:13:07 (Since enumerating over rational or float indexes would be nasty...) 22:13:19 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:26 *stassats`* wonders whether REBMEM is a good function name 22:13:28 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:40 stassats`: I can assure you, it's not. 22:13:43 basically 22:13:45 maybe in the 60s 22:14:01 I'm wanting something like pairlis, but one that doesn't add the .'s 22:14:03 well, it's MEMBER, but the other way around 22:14:21 <_3b`> zc00gii: so lists, not pairs? 22:14:23 Far too cute. 22:14:31 _3b`: exactly 22:14:50 stassats: what do you mean? 22:15:07 <_3b`> zc00gii: (mapcar 'list keys values)? 22:15:21 hmm 22:15:22 sure 22:15:29 adeht: (subseq list 0 (position value list)) 22:15:30 but now I'm forgetting how that'll help me implement it :< 22:15:40 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:15:42 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:15:44 minion: tell zc00gii about gentle 22:15:44 zc00gii: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 22:15:52 ... It's odd. I've been hacking lisp for something like seven or eight years now, but the various map functions really aren't part of my toolkit. 22:16:01 <_3b`> (loop for i below foo append (loop for j below bar collect (list i j))) ? 22:16:07 stassats: usually ldiff is used for that 22:16:11 minion: I knoe /how/ to program in lisp 22:16:12 lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 22:17:24 _3b`: good idea 22:17:28 zc00gii: i don't think that you do, hence my recommendation of a basic book. Your question is very very trivial, and not one i would expect from someone who knows how to program at all, let alone in lisp. 22:17:32 minion: are you a bot? 22:17:32 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 22:17:55 adeht: (ldiff list (member value list))? 22:18:02 drewc: actuallu, I do, so I appreciate you not to tell me I can't do something, thank you 22:18:02 stassats: right 22:18:12 drewc: I thought you ignore'd me a few months ago? 22:18:27 i can see why. 22:18:28 /ignore'd* 22:18:38 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 22:19:06 adeht: actually, that's indeed better since already have the result of MEMBER 22:19:08 thanks 22:19:20 stassats: yep :) 22:19:43 i'm splitting the list in half 22:21:25 hmmm... Ruby on Rails, Haskell on a Horse... Somehow I'm tempted to nickname mine "Lisp on Maglev" 22:21:48 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113270 22:21:49 _3b`: thanks, that worked, but is a bit slow, hopefully that'll give me an idea for a better algorithm 22:23:00 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-133-233.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 22:24:25 hey nyef, do I need to do something for darwin/ppc? 22:25:23 Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:47 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:27:54 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:58 (I should switch that DO loop do DO*) 22:28:25 i'm actually doing back/forward button, and maybe using two lists will be better than searching every time 22:32:12 p_l: How about Lisp on a Beaver? 22:32:21 stassats: that reminds me of two things.. one is the code in PG's ANSI Common Lisp to deal with back/forward, and the other is something I wrote when I started with Lisp to deal with it 22:32:50 -!- em is now known as emma 22:32:51 antoszka: ... hahahaha 22:33:43 stassats: I don't remember when my old code is though 22:33:47 *where 22:33:48 two lists seems like a good idea 22:36:01 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has joined #lisp 22:36:08 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDF616.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:37:03 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:40 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:39:19 slyrus_: Yes. Should be fairly obvious. 22:39:34 slyrus_: The patch that kills it is 1.0.41.14. 22:40:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-192-173.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:40:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.59.134] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:40:26 slyrus_: I'd consider suggesting getting the threading support going there as well in a week, but... 22:40:39 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:07 Ok, I'll fire up the beast. It's too bad replacing the power supply on these g5's is such a PITA. 22:47:55 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:27 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:42 I wonder if I can transfer the dual CPU mobo to the one with the good PSU. 22:48:58 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:05 While you're at it, you might make it possible to access CR as well as CTR? 22:50:33 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.9] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:55:49 hohoho_ [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:55:58 nyef: I'm actually doing that right now for openbsd, I was going to boot into darwin next and test there too 22:56:07 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:56:17 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:17 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:17 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:17 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:18 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:18 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:56:35 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:40 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:45 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:56:50 joshe: Cool. 22:56:59 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 22:56:59 So that just leaves {Net,Free}BSD? 22:57:11 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:17 joshe: Looking forward to having threads? 22:57:21 just netbsd 22:57:36 Nobody did a freebsd/ppc sbcl port? 22:57:57 I wrote something that looks like it should work based on netbsd's cvsweb, but I have no way to test 22:58:13 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:37 no, I don't know if anyone uses freebsd on ppc 23:00:49 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Adios] 23:01:27 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:01:57 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-230-199.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 23:06:18 Uh, no paste announcements? 23:06:41 Anyway, I just pasted a draft abstract for my ILC talk. Feedback welcome. http://paste.lisp.org/display/113271 23:08:33 gigamonkey: I'd say "canonical implementations" rather than single ones 23:09:03 and quote "benevolent dictators", because it's a stupid term 23:09:03 gigamonkey: I think I'll be sorry to miss that talk. 23:09:04 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:19 adeht: yeah on the canonical. Maybe "dominant" 23:09:30 nyef: I hope so. ;-) 23:10:07 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:47 joshe: don't let me stop you :) 23:11:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:12:15 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 23:13:33 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:13:45 slyrus_: it's a pretty trivial fix and it's not like I was using this old thing for anything else 23:14:40 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:15:07 gigamonkey: btw, there is only one BDFL, and only for Python, afaik :D 23:15:27 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:15:29 p_l: not anymore, last I heard 23:15:33 ... Larry Wall isn't a BDFL? 23:15:53 nyef: didn't claim to be one, at least 23:16:11 Fair enough. 23:16:15 personalism can't work in the long-run.. and "long-run" in the programming world is pretty short 23:17:46 p_l: that may be true. But lots of people use the term even if few have been appointed. 23:18:21 And certainly many projects run on that basis even without the title. 23:18:29 I don't think Matsumoto for example is a BDFL, even if he still leads Ruby (MRI) developement 23:18:51 (I recall when the rule on perl5-porters was, "Whatever Larry says is right. But you can try to change Larry's mind.") 23:20:06 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:35 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 Is there an library that calls into gpg handy? Not surprisingly, searching for gpg and common lisp on the net turns up a lot of stuff around packages, and not this specifically. 23:22:48 the Unix way: run-program 23:23:46 Indeed, that's what I was going to do, but putting in the passphrase becomes a small problem. 23:24:54 But I'll just work around that :) 23:26:03 Soulman2 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:18 *nyef* tries to remember the magic invocation for copying a git branch from one machine to another... 23:26:39 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:57 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:27:26 nyef: git clone? 23:27:35 No, into an existing repository. 23:27:44 It's going to be some variant on git pull, I'm sure. 23:27:54 Spewns1 [~jake@97-92-216-245.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:53 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:20 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:31:32 nyef: you need to add a remote and fetch 23:31:47 Yeah, that's about where I was headed, I think. 23:32:19 Maybe I -should- clone. 23:33:10 git remote add ze-remote ~/repo ; git fetch ze-remote branch-name:local-branch-name 23:35:52 Hrm. 23:36:19 Okay, after three error messages I'm going to give up and rsync. 23:36:52 *_3b`* thinks you can do the fetch with options to git remote add also 23:37:28 3b: yeah, at that point I just edit the config file ;) 23:39:48 *nyef* wonders if he really needs to test on both x86-64 and x86... 23:43:11 what would be to criticise about Arc from an common lisp user perspective? is Arc worth a look? 23:45:03 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:30 Okay, build-test time... 23:46:22 urandom: there is a lot of c.l.l/reddit discussion 23:48:05 oh i dont read reddit, is only found stuff about it not supporting unicode 23:48:25 urandom: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/67gu9/take_the_arc_challenge/ for example 23:48:58 some of it may not be applicable to today's arc, of course 23:49:02 adeht thanks 23:52:34 nyef: .15 builds on ppc already 23:53:02 slyrus_: Oh? It should be losing during GC. 23:53:27 *stassats`* finally got back/forward with pop-up menus right 23:53:39 nyef: this is without threads, right? 23:53:42 cheney or gencgc? 23:53:46 such seemingly easy problem isn't as straightforward 23:53:55 Both. 23:54:29 Okay, try (defun foo () (bar)) (foo), and then GC from the debugger. 23:54:32 well, it seems to build... 23:55:20 how do I gc from the debugger again? 23:55:31 (gc), isn't it? 23:55:33 urandom__: I'm not sure CL'ers even have much of a CL-specific response to Arc. It's a slightly goofy (and thin) layer on top of Scheme. 23:55:56 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-78-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:04 Hrm. 23:56:10 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:56:29 Actually, might have to (defun foo () #'bar) (foo), and tweak debug until it works. 23:56:46 The debugger really doesn't like being useful when there's no debug info for the current frame. 23:57:12 nope, that seems to work fine. 23:57:13 running the tests should be enough to trigger it, right? 23:57:22 and it built the contribs, of course 23:57:22 because that's all I did to test on openbsd 23:57:40 gigamonkey: I gave this link because many of the posters are lispers (and pg responds) 23:57:56 I'm still about 5-10 minutes away from my darwin build finishing 23:58:30 gigamonkey well thats just the main implementation, i am interested in the language 23:58:36 I'm not sure if the tests would trigger it. 23:58:53 Basically, it'll happen if the GC occurs when there's a saved interrupt-context. 23:59:16 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 urandom__: I suppose. But if that's all the implementation is, then we can infer something about how many really new language ideas it's added. 23:59:53 But I haven't taken a very close look at Arc, so take with a pinch of salt. 23:59:54 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp