00:00:17 No, the book by Miller and Benson. 00:00:46 <_Pb> thanks guys, i'm gonna save my money and go through PCL online, then 00:08:06 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 00:12:06 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 00:19:03 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:09 -!- _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:19:23 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/990f5de07517629c for reference 00:20:38 what is this T language of which he speaks 00:20:55 zfx: It's one of the early Scheme dialects. 00:21:19 zfx: it's a scheme-like. Riastradh was working on porting it to extant environment a couple years back. 00:21:33 ... How far did that port get? 00:21:57 ISTR that the compiler had backends for something like -one- architecture that can still be obtained, and that was sparc. 00:22:30 And then the loader was tied to solaris, and... 00:22:32 *nyef* shudders. 00:23:25 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:23:49 aw, T. i never used it, but my lisp mentor was from yale and talked of it often. 00:24:22 nyef: lisp style & design sounds really interesting. hope I can find that one day 00:25:50 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:27:19 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:29:39 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:44 -!- fatblued` [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30:56 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:32:43 /window 13 00:35:23 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:37:09 -!- err [~user@lawn-143-215-116-235.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:24 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:56 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-172.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:40:10 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 00:41:48 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.72] has joined #lisp 00:47:29 -!- pavelludiq [~user@87.246.26.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:10 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:39 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:37 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-117-17.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:02 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:25 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.59] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:56:42 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:26 zfx: there was an interesting post by Olin Shivers about the history of T 00:58:39 zfx: http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html 01:00:35 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A60A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:01:18 What's the date on this article? 01:02:21 2001 01:02:53 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 01:03:58 Modius: http://people.csail.mit.edu/gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg00650.html <- original post 01:03:58 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:53 sellout- [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-51-4.w90-45.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:07:18 -!- sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-119-114.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:07:18 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 01:07:45 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-117-17.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 01:08:27 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12:03 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:00 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:19:10 sellout- [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-82-183.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:19:23 -!- sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-51-4.w90-45.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:19:23 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 01:19:47 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:12 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@3.sub-72-120-79.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:11 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A46F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:16 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 01:33:21 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:37:09 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:54 _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has joined #lisp 01:48:13 err [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:28 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:36 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 01:57:37 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:15 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:05:04 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:32 anyone run into something like this before? it happens occasionally to me while using lispbuilder-sdl and slime. http://www.pasteit4me.com/767011 02:08:56 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:09:53 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:10:14 derrida: You've already checked for stale fasls? 02:10:20 the corruption message came after things were working fine and program running for over a day, i recompiled a couple macros, went to run one and noticed slime was disconnected, switched to buffer and saw that message 02:10:50 nyef: i've tried removing the existing ones and it crops up again 02:11:13 well, only for my project, which fasls do you mean? 02:12:20 The ones for slime, lispbuilder, etc. 02:12:46 i think i told clbuild to clean everything but i'll do it again to be sure 02:13:50 i thought i remembered seeing something about a threaded sbcl having issues with lb-sdl that resulted in a corrupted image? 02:14:12 That wouldn't entirely surprise me, either. 02:14:48 hm, i wonder if clbuild compiled sbcl with threading :\ 02:15:16 If it's a recent SBCL on linux, probably. 02:15:28 (I already know you're on x86-64.) 02:15:31 yeah very latest i think 02:15:34 :P 02:18:22 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:07 yep, it appears to be threaded 02:27:36 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 02:27:42 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:27:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:48 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:16 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:30 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:37:27 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:37:51 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:45:09 nyef: Now I got it the trie traversal to work, but it's still based on the same idea, as I need a serializer also: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113183#3 02:48:18 peterhil: Congratulations. The next step is for when you need to do that same traversal for some other reason: Split the traversal from the printing. 02:49:22 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:53:19 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 02:55:20 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:02:45 tcr [~tcr@203.82.94.89] has joined #lisp 03:04:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:18 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hturgddqjzjjiofr] has joined #lisp 03:06:17 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 03:06:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.94.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:47 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:10:56 tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.38] has joined #lisp 03:11:34 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 03:14:54 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:15:43 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:43 Good morning everyone! 03:17:49 jonathans [~jonathans@cpe-68-175-81-179.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:17 -!- jonathans is now known as Guest81735 03:18:57 -!- Guest81735 [~jonathans@cpe-68-175-81-179.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:00 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:21:34 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:22:46 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:33 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:31:47 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:34:28 -!- toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:41:27 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@mpe-2-170.mpe.lv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:42:15 -!- bigjust 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05:07:25 evening folks 05:07:30 Recur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:07:54 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:45 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:35 hello slyrus 05:12:44 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:22 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:15:14 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 05:16:41 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:28 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:22:35 sellout- [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-139-93.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:23:28 -!- sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-82-183.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:23:28 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 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revel0_ is now known as revel0 07:19:11 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.187] has joined #lisp 07:21:10 J13R [9c3ee7be@gateway/web/freenode/ip.156.62.231.190] has joined #lisp 07:21:29 -!- J13R is now known as Johannes42 07:21:33 how to handle unix signals in CCL? 07:21:37 hello 07:21:44 I am new to lisp 07:21:48 Hello Johannes42. 07:21:54 hi Johannes42 07:22:16 ost: CCL doesn't have much in the way of support for that at the moment... 07:22:28 I have this lisp program and it complains that it can't find the package EXCL. Does this mean I have to buy allegro lisp? 07:22:53 redline6561: ok, thanks 07:22:58 ost: The most recent discussion on the matter appears here. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/5993 07:23:16 ost: It does seem to be something many people want. Not sure where it sits on the devs priority list though. 07:23:20 Johannes42: What software requires this package? 07:23:39 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:23:49 a building software that compiles lisp, itself written in lisp, called buffy 07:24:09 beach: ^ 07:24:44 Johannes42: Never heard of buffy. Where did you get it from? 07:25:42 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:26:03 beach: I got this software package as a zip and need to get it to run, it seems the guys who used it run alisp. It needs the proprietory package excl, which only alisp seems to have. 07:26:30 Johannes42: Sounds plausible in effect. 07:27:07 yeah ... :/ I just thought maybe there are free excl replacements and that was an obvious thing, but I guess not 07:27:27 Johannes42: There might be, but I haven't heard of any. 07:28:23 http://lwn.net/Articles/398693/ # hey, look, it's not just me 07:29:12 Krystof: Getting tired of releases? 07:29:24 thanks anyway beach 07:29:35 Johannes42: Sure, sorry I couldn't help. 07:30:53 Johannes42: try http://www.cliki.net/ACL-COMPAT 07:31:21 ost: thanks 07:34:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:34:41 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl7-59-197.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:36:59 Krystof: people may want to use gnash now that the adobe plugin isn't available for 64 bits platforms anymore 07:37:29 (and people on OpenBSD don't really have a choice) 07:37:40 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 07:38:16 ldunn [~user@d110-32-137-195.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:39:28 -!- err [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:42:22 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 07:45:04 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 07:48:45 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:50:48 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:51:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:51:31 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 07:51:53 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:52:44 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:54:15 galdor: you miss the point 07:56:02 -!- revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:57:23 revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:57:24 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-137-233.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:58:40 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-149-78.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:00:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rkcfwxmxzkkttbwr] has joined #lisp 08:00:39 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:00:56 -!- Johannes42 [9c3ee7be@gateway/web/freenode/ip.156.62.231.190] has left #lisp 08:02:10 -!- revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:04:40 -!- rat_ [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:06:16 revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:07:05 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:07:55 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 08:09:50 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:10:42 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-14-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:10:53 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:15:38 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:39 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:05 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:05 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:10 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-13-202.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:19:18 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:19:51 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-33-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:20:33 In CLIM 2, the word "command" is used for two different things: 1. A named function with its arguments potentially labeled with presentation types, 2. A list of type (command-name arg1 arg2 ... argn) where an argument can be an argument or *unsupplied-argument-marker* indicating that the corresponding argument must be acquired by accept before the command is invoked. I would like to distinguish between the two. It seem to me tha 08:20:33 case 1 should be called `command'. What should I call number 2? 08:20:34 hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:42 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@124.76.15.251] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:21:21 command specifier? 08:21:41 That doesn't ring right to me. 08:21:44 How about "command invocation"? 08:21:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:22:48 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@138.82-134-78.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:24:20 sounds a lot more appropriate 08:51:49 apropos gnash-funding: why don't they offer (or did i miss it?) direct bank-transfer informations? 08:52:52 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:01 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:53:05 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:02 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:56:01 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 09:00:10 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 09:00:10 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 09:00:10 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:00:22 Any Slimv user here? I just started using it and am wondering if there are any common gripes with neat solutions I should be aware of? 09:01:14 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:14 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:01:15 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 09:04:24 revel0_ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:05:40 -!- revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:02 Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:08:05 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082C981.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:29 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 09:11:35 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F4CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:13:01 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:13:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 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has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:05:31 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:43 revel0_ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:05:59 drafael [~tapio@ip-118-90-131-15.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:08:42 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:39 toggg [~Shiva@3615mylife.foreverlovingjah.fr] has joined #lisp 10:10:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:11:36 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:11:37 -!- NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:49 -!- drafael [~tapio@ip-118-90-131-15.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:15:06 -!- revel0_ is now known as revel0 10:17:06 NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 10:17:32 Can you "deprecate" functions (in sbcl) s.t. at compile-time you get a warning (similar to Java's @deprecate tag)? 10:19:31 You could replace them with macros that expand to output a message at compile-time ... 10:20:32 use a compiler macro. Not entirely (but reasonably) foolproof. 10:21:09 lichtblau: OK, i'll try that. Thanks. 10:21:25 compiler macros should ensure you can still use apply and funcall on them without compilation errors (but make sure you have the updated function definition warn about the deprecation, too) (: 10:21:55 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Killed (evilmquin (Killed.))] 10:22:07 I thought about (defmacro defun-deprecated ...). 10:22:17 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has joined #lisp 10:22:23 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:38 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:04 relcomp: What functions are you thinking of deprecating? 10:25:12 beach: Own defuns, I want to replace by newer ones. 10:25:21 OK. 10:25:47 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:07 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 10:29:36 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 10:30:24 relcomp: http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/src/base/defobsolete.lisp 10:31:41 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 10:32:10 So, CLIM 2 has the concept of a "realizer" for panes, and the spec refers to a pane-realization protocol, but I can't find any description of that protocol. 10:33:06 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:50 fe[nl]ix: from iolib? Good hint. 10:38:05 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 10:39:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 10:39:39 -!- revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:39:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:40:09 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:39 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-152-239.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:39 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:45:54 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:19 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 10:46:58 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:18 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 10:53:21 fe[nl]ix: Thanks, works fine. 10:55:49 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:44 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BAA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:48 beach: there isn't much of a look-and-feel realization protocol, but I think it's in make-pane 10:58:01 the bit about finding out which concrete pane class to create given an abstract class name 10:58:19 Xof: Yes, I found that part. 10:58:30 looking in the cairo/gtk backend that lichtblau wrote will show you how mcclim believes it's implemented 10:58:46 OK. 11:00:29 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:33 lichtblau [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:11 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zvbjnqbshduywkna] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:03:54 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:13 Here is another CLIM-related question. Has anybody even tried to imagine the possibility of a toolkit like CLIM to use ready-made gadgets from other toolkits? Different display servers, OK, but toolkit components seem much harder to provide for. 11:09:15 I am asking because if I drop that requirement, I can make the low-level `designs' device independent, and make it possible to create those designs independently of the existence of any display server. 11:10:00 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:10:12 I would still allow for look-and-feel variations of course through some kind of style object. 11:12:48 the cairo/gtk backend uses gtk gadgets 11:12:59 Hmm 11:13:00 that is the point of the with-look-and-feel-realisation 11:13:34 similarly, the beagle backend use(s/d) cocoa gadgets 11:13:44 that's one of the hard bits in writing a backend :-) 11:13:50 Indeed. 11:14:55 Then, those backends don't work so well do they? 11:15:55 well, no. 11:16:05 Incidentally, this is something that Scott McKay says they got right in DUIM 11:16:33 I don't remember him saying that. I should probably look at what they do there. 11:17:22 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vqnlyutzlwebyzgf] has joined #lisp 11:18:25 xinming [~hyy@115.221.9.206] has joined #lisp 11:19:25 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has joined #lisp 11:19:52 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:23:00 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:23:00 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:23:00 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:23:00 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:23:00 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:23:00 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:23:00 -!- Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:26:24 hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:40 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:40 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:50 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 11:27:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:28:56 The DUIM documentation doesn't seem to be very verbose on how this is done. 11:29:19 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:29:28 *sigh* 11:29:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:30:27 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 11:30:31 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 11:35:08 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:35:25 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 11:35:32 lichtblau [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:38:19 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 11:40:42 lichtblau: here? 11:41:25 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-253.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:41:30 hi 11:42:16 lichtblau: I have a slot with "QListWidgetItem*" type, but when it's signalled, ensure-dynamic-member-types fails on FIND-QTYPE returning NIL. any ideas? 11:43:11 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:44:07 oh, (find-qtype "QListWidgetItem*" 1) succeeds 11:44:29 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:50 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:46:03 -!- laynor [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-239-50.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:07 laynor [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-239-50.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:46:10 hmm. AFAICT, find-qtype has no other caller, so we might as well change it to suit e-d-m-t's needs. So, walk over all modules until we find one that has the type? 11:46:53 that should work 11:47:42 are modules in *module-data-table* contiguous? 11:47:44 perhaps in the sense of making the argument truly optional, and if it's nil, do the searching instead of defaulting to 0. 11:48:28 yes, (dotimes (... *n-modules*) ...) should work. 11:49:26 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:35 *stassats* likes how problems are getting solved after a good sleep 11:49:42 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:53:56 any good naming schemes for sequences of sequences of items? Sequence of items: ITEMS, Sequence of sequence of items: ITEMS* ? 11:54:30 itemses 11:54:41 lichtblau: and what is the purpose of <> around variable names? 11:55:09 mega1: table? 11:55:24 metasequence 11:55:44 jdz: I'm only giving points for solutions that generalize to dimensions > 2 11:57:27 stassats: well, it's meant as a visual indicator that the variable holds one of the "tagged" things described under "Bit bashing" in info.lisp. As opposed to the actual smoke index without the extra bits. 11:57:31 mega1: tree? 11:58:00 why would you want to name a variable in a real program based on its structure, anyway? doesn't the variable have an actual purpose? 11:58:08 However, for some reason I'm sometimes still writing instead of module, and that doesn't actually follow that rule, because module numbers don't have these tags at all. 11:59:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:59:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:00:10 (For modules, either ignore the <>, or think of them as markers saying "this isn't the real CFFI module pointer (nor the data pointer), it's just the sequential module number which still needs a lookup into *module-table* to be useful.) 12:02:33 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:02:35 cmm: it's internal. I think it's fine to remind myself of the structure, type, etc. 12:03:08 else using the plural for sequences would also be out. 12:04:18 Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:06:38 mega1: I didn't mean to suggest that using the structure in naming is bad style or anything of the sort, just that you have other options :) 12:09:36 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has joined #lisp 12:13:43 Sometimes a pair of integers is just a pair of integers. :) 12:13:55 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:47 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:33 stassats: are you there? 12:17:44 pmd: looks like 12:18:09 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:18:29 nullisnil [~nullisnil@i59F57896.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:44 stassats: about the (position 0) thing, i was watching acl's xref hash-tables (start from excl::*relation-table*) and i saw several (:top-level-form "") without the position 12:20:16 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:25 pmd: ok, i already committed that 12:20:30 (sorry, xref::*relation-table*) 12:20:33 why does SBCL say (type-of 1) ==> BIT? 12:20:44 fusss: it's not? 12:20:52 fusss: optimization? 12:20:55 (loop for x from 0 to 3 collecting (type-of x)) ==> (BIT BIT INTEGER INTEGER INTEGER) 12:21:19 so, is bit a subtype of integer then? 12:21:26 clhs bit 12:21:27 stassats: yeah, i saw it, thanks :) i was just trying to justify it with facts. i suggested that on personal experience only, and i had that fix locally 12:21:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_bit.htm 12:21:32 0 and 1 are bits, aren't they? 12:21:33 it could be theoretically used to pack small values into bitfields... 12:21:46 fusss: btw, I noticd you in #android :D 12:21:48 ohboi 12:21:57 p_l: yep, me does that now 12:22:24 fusss: developement? nice 12:22:53 p_l: yeah, part of an insane umbrella contract that contained "must support android" in a footnote 12:23:15 lol 12:23:33 p_l: I will talk to you about it some other time, gotta finish some stuff first 12:23:56 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:00 Hi I am doing first steps and ran into a no-doc-problem while trying to get the value of an oid in elephant. Maybe i just do not see it - how do i get the oid? 12:24:04 no problem 12:24:05 p_l: small non-GUI android project: a networking lib. if you're wondering. 12:24:10 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 12:24:13 Hmm, I'm about to do some text output stuff in CLIM. Anybod know how to limit the width some text is allowed to use (in some other way than counting characters and using monospace fonts)? 12:24:37 Also, anybody know any way of creating an area with a background colour and saying "draw this inside this area"? 12:25:38 So far I've only been able to print text willy nilly, with the text appearing sort of wherever it likes, any way to say "print the text HERE"? 12:27:00 fusss: funny how you're working with networking... I was lately pondering hacking the necessary part into base OS instead of playing with iptables on device (fucking lack of proxy support) 12:27:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27:38 OliverUv: What do you mean by "limit the width". You can figure out how wide some text will be with some text style. 12:28:10 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:28:14 Well, I'd like some text to cut off after a certain width (instead of increasing the size of the table cell it will be inside) 12:28:37 OliverUv: Wrap it in a layout pane with fixed width. 12:28:38 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest39111 12:29:02 -!- nullisnil [~nullisnil@i59F57896.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: nullisnil] 12:29:10 OliverUv: Create a sheet with the background color you want and then use a drawing primitive. 12:29:37 OliverUv: You print the text where you want by moving the cursor. 12:29:43 Can I do this in presenters? I thought creating panes was restricted to inside application-frame-definitions 12:30:05 OliverUv: You didn't say it was inside a presentation. 12:30:13 ah, sorry 12:30:22 -!- Guest39111 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:30:45 OliverUv: You can use with-output-as-presentation, draw a rectangle and then draw your stuff. 12:31:26 hm, okay 12:31:45 I guess I'll have to do cut off text by myself? 12:32:31 Well, a table wasn't really meant for the kind of stuff you want. 12:33:17 lichtblau [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:43 in this case I wanted to have a table with a cell for each month, presenting the meeting objects of the day inside 12:33:50 How would you recommend going about it? 12:34:42 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:34:52 OliverUv: If you want the table to be fixed size, just draw it with graphics primitives rather than using a table, just the way I did with my calendar program that I showed you. 12:35:29 Hmm, yeah that wouldn't be too hard 12:36:14 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 12:36:34 OliverUv: If you draw the columns from left to right, and start by drawing a large white rectangle for the column, you will automatically erase whatever spilled over from the coloumns to the left of it. 12:36:54 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 12:37:46 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:13 good idea 12:38:50 definitely feels like a hack, but I'm not in need of anything universally appliable here 12:42:28 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:44 ah, wait, I can give a :clipping-region argument to with-drawing-options 12:43:02 I think that should also affect text outputs within that function call 12:43:19 It should, yes. 12:52:02 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:02:15 -!- topo_ [~topo@p57B9BE02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: topo_] 13:04:52 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:05:48 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 13:07:28 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:05 kiuma [~kiuma@host12-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:11:42 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 13:14:15 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:40 -!- toggg [~Shiva@3615mylife.foreverlovingjah.fr] has quit [Quit: :)  © ¿ !~§¤[1;21] 0.6+8*9X²2¨@#|/[_.-{3,4°5^5"'&6,55957(FR)<7%0=1=0%6>?&£`"5^5°4,3}-._]\|#@¨2²X9*8+7.0 [12;2]¤§~¡ ? 12±¾ ®  (:] 13:18:11 HerrBlume [~user@62.96.71.161] has joined #lisp 13:18:28 hello, is b9.com down? 13:18:49 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:07 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:25 sowa [~sowa@85.214.104.79] has joined #lisp 13:20:21 HerrBlume: Are you looking for logs? 13:20:35 clsql 13:20:48 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:09 beach: I'm looking for the clsql manual 13:21:35 I see. I don't know whether it is available elsewhere. 13:22:02 will the site be available again? 13:22:04 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:22:08 *HerrBlume* hopes everything is fine 13:23:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:23:45 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:24:05 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 13:27:48 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:29:30 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:29:35 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 13:29:36 HerrBlume: http://xach.com/tmp/clsql.pdf is built from recent clsql git 13:31:03 Xach: thank you 13:34:53 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-hdcejsyodvjmtbix] has joined #lisp 13:35:03 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:19 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:35:55 HerrBlume: http://xach.com/tmp/html.tar.gz is the html version 13:36:30 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-vlbyqzxbjenqtjzv] has joined #lisp 13:37:05 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:37:09 lnostdal [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:17 stassats [~stassats@ppp78-37-189-165.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 13:38:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@ppp78-37-189-165.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 13:38:32 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:39:32 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 13:40:04 Xach: Thanks, stored it for future reference, in case b9.com will not come online again. 13:45:06 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:45:27 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.51] has joined #lisp 13:56:35 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 13:58:42 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:01:34 hm, using the LIFT testing framework, how do I inspect the test results on the slime repl? I see there's a :break-on-failures? keyword arg, but that is not very convenient in the case of many failures 14:02:31 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:04:42 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:05:47 holly crap! there is a notorious SBCL non-bug that has been annoying me for literally MONTHS 14:05:50 wow 14:06:11 lisp connection was terminating "unexpectedly" and forcing me to restart everything 14:06:35 but when emacs asks you if you want to start a new session, say "n" and your old one will resume 14:07:03 it's gotta be a minor SLIME issue, and application stream I/O sending some non-EOF to slime to trigger this 14:07:31 when slime restarts you will end up in CL-USER but you can still (in-package :your-previous-package) and everything will be there 14:07:45 I have literally lost DAYS worth of work to this POS 14:07:48 gaaaah 14:08:21 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:24 "Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer" <-- NOT TRUE 14:09:31 whatever, how do you reproduce this? 14:09:45 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:10:12 R3KoN [~innapropr@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 14:10:36 well, i can trigger it over and over again, til kingdom come, evaluating my last repl commands 14:10:44 isn't that just the usual thing where SBCL writes bogus UTF-8 to the socket? 14:10:54 CL-USER> (in-package :tsg) 14:10:55 # 14:10:57 TSG> (cl-store:store has-noprices "has-no-prices") 14:10:58 ; Evaluation aborted. 14:11:00 TSG> (cl-store:store has-no-prices "has-no-prices") 14:11:01 CL-USER> 14:11:15 or even real utf-8 if the emacs-end hasn't been told to expect it 14:11:17 fusss: package "CL-STORE" not found, i can't reproduce 14:11:22 unless it does that by default, now 14:11:58 fusss: cl-store:store will return a binary blob, so maybe that's causing a problem 14:12:24 stassats: it's not cl-store specific, it happens with anything that manipulates externals files; but in this instance, i have it cornered. i can dump and image if necessary. SBCL 1.0.32/win32. 14:13:21 rsynnott: whatever cl-store returns is lisp READABLE 14:13:27 no thanks, i'll take only a reduced test case that doesn't depend on anything 14:13:51 xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:41 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:41 fusss: if you do it on sbcl for linux do you get the same thing? 14:15:58 I never had any similar trouble while using cl-store, though I'm on a somewhat older version of sbcl 14:16:40 rsynnott: it would be difficult for me to test it on linux since my linux setup is not as heavily used (just remote VPSes that serve web; not for everyday hacking) 14:17:19 rsynnott: it's not cl-store; it happens with skeletal with-open-file; but was never able to reproduce it consistently before 14:17:27 -!- sdkmvx [~martin@unaffiliated/sdkmvx] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:17:37 hrmm, weird 14:17:38 fusss: does your code send end-of-file signal by any chance? 14:17:38 sdkmvx [~martin@unaffiliated/sdkmvx] has joined #lisp 14:18:45 stassats: 14:19:06 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:19:23 no, all it does is read a file into a string buffer; and i have multiple phases/passes process that string into something else 14:19:51 can you paste your code? 14:20:49 let me put it this way; my code is processing 9k files in batch mode. it works 99.99999% of the time, but sometimes the repl just dies. 14:20:58 Somelauw [~anonymous@084-246-052-113.PN.nl] has joined #lisp 14:20:59 *Xach* blames windows 14:21:06 you've set the net encoding in your .emacs file? 14:21:27 Yesterday, I asked what a good implementation for CL was. 14:21:55 I was told SBCL 14:21:55 Somelauw: ? 14:22:03 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 14:22:07 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 14:22:07 But I don't like it's interactive mode. 14:22:07 that's a reasonable response to the question. 14:22:27 everybody uses slime to interract with sbcl. 14:22:35 fusss: can you update slime? there was a fix recently of breaking connection when end-of-file was signalled on an unrelated stream 14:22:41 For example, you can't go up to the precious expression. 14:22:50 I will take a look at slime 14:22:51 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 14:23:09 the raw repl in sbcl is very lean. 14:23:26 if you just want to bang away at a repl in the shell, clisp has a repl with gnu readline support. 14:23:28 stassats: i can update slime, yes 14:23:52 but I wouldn't say clisp is a 'good' common lisp. 14:24:14 Fade: (set-language-environment "UTF-8") (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) 14:24:24 14WAA1HGS [~user@p548A7847.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:41 Do I have to use emacs to use slime? 14:25:01 you can pretend you're not using it 14:25:02 Somelauw: google "rlwrap sbcl" 14:25:18 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:40 what is the effect of setting the net-coding system on a windows machine to 'utf-8-unix ? 14:25:43 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:25:57 this sounds like the kind of question p_l would have the answer to. 14:26:07 -!- 14WAA1HGS is now known as urandom__ 14:26:26 i don't think the encoding has anything to do with this issue 14:27:03 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 14:27:51 Do I need to combine emacs, slime and rlwrap all together? 14:28:03 no 14:28:06 no 14:28:08 Fade: I suspect that 'utf-8-unix' just means utf-8 with no BOM 14:28:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:28:15 rsynnott: *nod* 14:28:22 (which is, in practice, the case with almost all utf-8) 14:28:23 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:26 Somelauw: you need only Slime, which happens to be written for the Emacs paltform 14:28:44 rsynnott: except the ones generated by winblows programs 14:28:58 *_3b* would have guessed 'utf8 with unix line endings' 14:29:11 is the default encoding utf-16 on all windows platforms, or just on XP? 14:30:14 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:53 _3b`: could be that, either 14:30:55 or both 14:31:02 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:06 Fade: all after NT4, I think 14:31:13 Is there a commonlisp implementation which has a good native interactive mode? 14:31:23 utf-16 with BOM, endianism depends on endianism of machine 14:31:27 (so almost always little-) 14:31:33 -!- revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:31:36 Slime is pretty native for SBCL 14:31:44 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:31:59 Somelauw: LispWorks I believe does. 14:32:11 the slime fancy repl is the best repl i'm aware of. 14:32:23 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.51] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 14:32:33 beware, LispWorks IDE emacs-like 14:32:42 *Fade* chuckles 14:32:47 if you have an emaxophobia 14:32:57 jonathan` [~user@38.96.178.178] has joined #lisp 14:32:58 s/IDE/IDE is/ 14:33:25 considering how much of that we've seen in the past couple of weeks, I'm actually starting to wonder if there are a lot of non-verbal people who come investigating common lisp and run away because they hate emacs for whatever reason. 14:33:53 Fade: And what would be the action to take if that were the case? 14:34:08 I have no idea. 14:34:16 revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:34:18 I don't understand people who are phobic about emacs. 14:34:44 but I imagine something like the IDE that ships with clozure cl is what those people are expecting. 14:34:53 I don't either. But perhaps their Lisp experience without it would be so bad, that we should recommend they use Java instead. 14:36:15 i don't know, you can learn some lisp basics without Slime 14:36:19 -!- jonathan` [~user@38.96.178.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:25 of course you can. 14:36:29 There are definitely people who like Lisp but hate emacs. I know several of them. Many MCL users are like that. I think it's a real barrier for some people. 14:36:31 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 is helpful. 14:36:33 even without an implementation 14:36:43 I didn't discover slime until I had already learned basics. 14:37:03 and when you know lisp a little, you can appreciate slime better 14:37:27 the clozure cl IDE is obviously a response to this factor. perhaps it was even stronger among the OSX cognocenti that would have been their prime constituency. 14:37:29 Well, emacs is just unfamiliar. If you are unfamiliar using both CL and emacs, you will get stuck on problems twice as often. 14:37:55 I am more familiar using vim. 14:38:29 Do I have to configure slime or can I use it instantly? 14:38:32 Somelauw: it's still a bit rough, but there is some code that offers readline-like capabilities for SBCL, including completion and that sort of thing. 14:39:24 jonathan` [~jonathan@38.96.178.178] has joined #lisp 14:39:26 Somelauw: if you're reading Practical Common Lisp, it introduces Slime at the beginning 14:39:28 You can start it using (require :hemlock.tty) followed by (hemlock:repl). 14:40:21 If you don't use slime, clisp gives a better user experience. It uses readline, has history, and completes symbols as needed. 14:41:16 lichtblau. I am still in the terminal. 14:41:37 hemlock goes mad when i enter multibyte characters 14:43:38 Somelauw: there is nothing wrong with using bare clisp or rlwrap sbcl, especially for learning, but consider yourself warned that there are better environments 14:43:43 I am using Practical Common Lisp for an introduction to Common Lisp. Since I've already had emacs installed, I prefered to set it up manually with slime and clisp. When going through the hello world example, the REPL only shows "NIL" on (print t "hi"). Does it redirect it somewhere else by default= 14:43:48 *? 14:43:48 Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:44:06 sowa: what slime version? 14:44:19 sowa: Are you sure you did (print t "hi")? 14:44:24 That latest stable I guess, let me see. 14:44:46 When using clisp it does work as intented. 14:44:48 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:53 there is no latest stable slime, unfortunately 14:45:03 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:45:37 beach: i guess sowa meant format 14:45:37 I see. I'm on Ubuntu and just get me the latest via apt-get. 14:45:41 *got 14:46:06 sowa: That is most likely not the latest. 14:46:06 Sorry, I mean format, still haven't switched my brain for CL ;) 14:46:15 sowa: you might consider clbuild 14:46:42 sowa: switch to *inferior-lisp* buffer, your output might be there 14:46:58 if it is, then your slime is quite old 14:48:12 indeed, the newest slime in ubuntu is one year old 14:48:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vqnlyutzlwebyzgf] has left #lisp 14:48:50 stassats: that's where it is. 14:49:02 Arghh, it is printing (emacs:9570): CRITICAL **: murrine_style_draw_box: assertion `height >= -1' failed 14:49:14 and clisp doesn't playing along with slime as nice as SBCL does 14:49:27 s/playing/play/ 14:49:38 Somelauw: It is annoying, but it is not a problem. 14:49:47 I'll go for clisp. Does it have a decent interactive mode? Can I run it straight away? 14:49:54 yes 14:50:03 it even has completion 14:50:05 Does it require setup or anything like? 14:50:11 no 14:50:21 stassats: so I should better get me a newer version of slime and preferable switch to SBCL? 14:50:46 sowa: that would be the best direction 14:50:53 Cool _O_ 14:50:53 Thanks. 14:50:59 and newer version meaning from CVS 14:51:41 CVS... I thought I wouldn't need to touch a CVS repository since we've abandoned it at work. 14:52:01 you can grab a snapshot 14:52:44 and don't forget to _purge_ your slime from apt-get: apt-get --purge slime cl-swank 14:52:59 eh, forgot "remove" in there 14:54:55 -!- jonathan` [~jonathan@38.96.178.178] has left #lisp 14:55:53 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-193-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:55:59 -!- Somelauw [~anonymous@084-246-052-113.PN.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 15:00:46 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:03:18 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:56 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:04:13 stassats: the new environment seems to work better, thanks. 15:04:31 great 15:04:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:42 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:26 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 15:10:16 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@host12-178-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:10:18 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:34 carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.35] has joined #lisp 15:12:28 -!- HerrBlume [~user@62.96.71.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:45 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:46 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:02 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:14 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 15:22:43 x3nU [~xenu@sundance.6irc.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:56 -!- x3nU [~xenu@sundance.6irc.net] has left #lisp 15:25:04 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.155.167] has joined #lisp 15:25:04 Fade: utf-8-unix would be UTF-8, no BOM, LF as line separator 15:25:30 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has joined #lisp 15:25:39 p_l: thanks :) 15:27:16 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 15:28:20 *_3b* is catching up on submitting silly sbcl bugs, wonders if ((lambda () (nsubst 'new 'old 'old))) is too silly to bother filing a bug about 15:28:45 also, Windows doesn't use BOM that often 15:29:16 (mostly in files, streams/strings tend to be without it, or at least I haven't encountered it too often) 15:29:41 my friend who works more in windows might know better, but I don't think such thorough analysis is necessary :) 15:30:40 this always makes interacting with libraries especially fun :) 15:31:02 _3b`: what's broken with that NSUBST form? I see it warn and return what I'd expect 15:31:20 I seem to remember wxWidgets wanting data passed as UTF-8 in linux, UTF-16 in Windows, adn UTF-32 in mac, for instance :) 15:31:49 rsynnott: Windows uses UTF-16 in its system libraries 15:32:02 <_3b> antifuchs: where does the spec prohibit passing a literal to nsubst, even when nsubst won't/can't modify it? 15:32:02 that's why wxWindows might want it 15:32:20 <_3b> antifuchs: the warning is the part i'm objecting to 15:32:56 and then there's UCS-2, waiting to trick people into thinking that it's UTF-16 15:33:12 rsynnott: that's kinda how Windows ended up using UTF-16 15:33:42 *_3b* would not object to a style warning there, or full warnings when the literal can actually be modified 15:34:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-16/UCS-2#Use_in_major_operating_systems_and_environments - ugh 15:34:08 that is, NT started out with all internals running UCS-2, then they added UTF-16 support at some time later. NTFS though I think uses UTF-8 for NT filenames 15:34:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:34:16 UTF-16 strikes me as being pretty much the worst of both worlds. 15:34:19 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:26 16 bit characters and surrogate pairs. 15:34:39 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:35:00 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:00 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 15:36:01 Zhivago: I think the idea is backwards compat with UCS-2, and space saving for common uses compared to UTF-32 15:36:02 Zhivago: it was added for compatibility with an existing user base, what do you expect? :) 15:36:04 but still, messy 15:36:19 lnostdal_ [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:34 It all comes back to unitary characters being a bad datatype. 15:37:12 and then, of course, maybe there will be a BOM, and maybe there will not be. Who can say? :) 15:37:40 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:37:51 hoy 15:38:26 I have an interesting subproblem and wanted to ask how would you attack it 15:38:57 I would divide it into subproblems until you stopped wondering about how you would attack it. 15:39:19 the task is to generate a random lisp form with certain properties 15:40:13 Zhivago: But then a huge number of subproblems may show up, too many to be attacked :), 15:40:31 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:40:40 levente_meszaros: recursively 15:40:51 just guessing, but that probably comes into it. ;-) 15:41:09 certain properties mean: use only certain special forms, primitive functions, constants, argument types and return types 15:41:40 try to avoid erroneous forms that could not compile or execute 15:41:43 levente_meszaros: sounds like the random tester in the ansi cl test suite? 15:41:58 levente_meszaros: so what's the problem? 15:42:50 antifuchs, hmm, I must check that one 15:42:56 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:42:57 gigamonkey, yes, I do have a recursive one 15:43:12 but some constraints are more complicated 15:43:15 <_3b> write a grammar, pick things at random until you run out of options? 15:43:19 ike` [~user@lawn-143-215-116-235.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:44:15 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:19 I thought some backtracking might help for the more complicated cases 15:44:45 You don't need backtracking if you know the constraints. 15:44:54 Seems to me for each special form you know what kinds of things can go in the form; generate appropriately. 15:45:02 + wants numbers, so use a number-generating-form-generator for its arguments, etc. 15:45:42 say, you have three functions foo, bar and baz, out of which you want to use at least two but no more than twice in the whole form 15:45:52 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:47:00 e.g. (+ (foo) (* 2 (bar) (foo))) is ok, but (min 3 (baz)) and (* (foo) (+ 2 (bar) (/ (bar) (baz)))) are not 15:47:38 er... that last one is allowed in fact :( 15:47:55 levente_meszaros: Where did +, *, /, and min coe from? They were not mentioned in your list of three! 15:48:02 *come 15:48:20 beach, yes they are also allowed, say any number of times 15:48:31 these are all input arguments to the generator 15:49:14 the special forms so far I'm using: IF, LEXICAL VARIABLE and of course there's function application 15:49:23 so it's pretty simple now 15:49:58 but later I might need LET, LET* and FLET 15:50:08 recursion and loops are evil :) 15:50:22 milanj [~milanj_@91.150.119.203] has joined #lisp 15:50:57 the random form generated should be distributed evenly (whatever that means :) 15:51:23 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wpocrchoiatwlplf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:52:25 this last requirement is the one that makes me think that simply carrying a context along the recursion that describes what is allowed to be there and what is not 15:52:28 is not enough 15:53:04 am I wrong? 15:54:41 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:58 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:24 avallark [~user@59.93.4.60] has joined #lisp 15:55:46 -!- sowa [~sowa@85.214.104.79] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:56:40 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 15:57:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:29 Bronsa_ [~brace@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:59:13 Zhivago, yeah, backtracking seems to be a wrong idea 15:59:21 -!- Bronsa_ [~brace@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 15:59:25 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-188-109.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:59:42 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.80.221] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:00:50 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@138.82-134-78.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 16:01:09 cowhm [~cowhm@26.sub-97-181-212.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:44 I might simply generate function application arguments in random order to take function argument asymmetry into account (e.g. /) 16:07:19 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:12:04 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:12:20 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-1-244.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:51 -!- revel0 [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:14:42 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:16:18 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:35 revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 16:17:48 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:55 The base of the recursion would be generated for where it is anchored. 16:20:05 That's sufficient for everything else. 16:24:07 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:24:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:53 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:27:06 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:27:09 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:09 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:30:24 hello all :) 16:31:07 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.155.167] has quit [Quit: bye!] 16:33:44 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.227.202] has joined #lisp 16:37:46 timor [~timor@port-92-195-78-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:08 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-209-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:38:41 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 16:38:49 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-209-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:48 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:44:24 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 16:45:23 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 16:47:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 16:50:04 Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:50:07 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.6/20100721025642]] 16:50:21 fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:28 I can not seem to find any documentation for CL-SMTP. Does such a thing exist? 16:51:25 Shaftoe_: README seems to be the documentation 16:51:41 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:17 Hello all. 16:52:19 ah. indeed. thanks. 16:54:20 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.160] has joined #lisp 16:54:24 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:25 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:54:25 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:55:48 hola 16:56:48 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.9.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:50 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:31 -!- Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 17:01:44 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 17:05:22 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.227.202] has left #lisp 17:09:12 rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 17:09:18 Hi all 17:09:18 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:30 Hello rmarynch. 17:09:44 You assigned the nonlinear-lvar bug to yourself? 17:10:01 nyef: Hello 17:10:18 nyef: Yes, I would like to give it a try 17:10:30 nyef: but not now, a bit later 17:10:33 Ah, so you don't actually have a solution yet? 17:11:15 nyef: no. Should I assign only the solved issues? I do not know the current policy 17:11:44 I would probably only claim a bug that I have some angle on solving. 17:12:26 nyef: Well, I investigated it a bit, but the final solution is not clear 17:12:32 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.71] has joined #lisp 17:12:55 Yeah, it's an odd bug. 17:13:39 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:33 I will make it unassigned in this case. Maybe other people also think that I have a fix, this is wrong 17:14:51 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:56 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:20:49 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:22:09 ... So, the git repo still hasn't updated after more than 24 hours? 17:22:37 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 17:25:04 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:05 Could somebody please suggest the performance benchmark which can be used to evaluate CL implementations? 17:25:36 antifuchs: Hilfe! 17:25:48 what's up, fe[nl]ix? 17:26:12 nyef: remind me why SBCL hasn't yet switched to git, given that even SF now supports git ? 17:26:34 antifuchs: the SBCL mirror isn't getting updated 17:26:37 fe[nl]ix: ... inertia? 17:26:45 rmarynch: there was boingmarks or something like that? Don't remember correct name 17:26:54 rmarynch: write your application portably, and see which one works better! 17:26:55 fe[nl]ix: I've noticed that the sf.net rsync thing is down more often nowadays 17:27:15 haven't been getting email about this, though 17:27:24 minion: boinkmarks 17:27:25 boinkmarks: Benchmarks of the current & of old versions of SBCL, hosted at boinkor.net. http://www.cliki.net/boinkmarks 17:27:45 thanks 17:27:46 antifuchs: would it be possible to run the conversion job on the SF servers, and push to SF's git ? 17:27:59 that way you wouldn't need to rely on rsync 17:28:04 antifuchs: It worked five days ago, but it hasn't worked since the commits yesterday. 17:28:20 fe[nl]ix: I refuse to trust them (: 17:28:21 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 17:28:37 fe[nl]ix: also, a 1:1 backup of sbcl's cvs repo isn't a bad thing (: 17:30:08 Okay, I'm up to two patch hunks that are in the wrong commits over a series of about 30 commits. 17:30:15 On the whole, that's not bad. 17:30:19 eek? 17:30:24 With expressions that return _no_ value, do they technically return NIL? 17:30:28 you're getting that where? 17:30:32 <_3b> demopig: no 17:30:36 My outbound queue. 17:30:38 demopig: no, they return no value. 17:30:42 demopig: expressions that return (values) return no value (: 17:30:49 <_3b> demopig: though most places that would try to use it would interpret no values as NIL 17:30:54 antifuchs: So, when you evaluate them ... 17:31:00 _3b: Yeah. 17:31:02 So nothing for you guys to panic over, just something for me to sort out before getting as far as CVS. 17:31:03 demopig: that's what it evaluates to 17:31:18 demopig: if you use it as an argument, (values) counts as NIL 17:31:19 _3b: That makes sense I suppose. 17:31:26 but it's no value at all 17:31:33 not NIL, which is very much a value (: 17:31:43 <_3b> demopig: some places that would notice are multiple-value-list and multiple-value-call 17:31:43 nyef: phew, had me in a bit of a panic there (: 17:31:54 _3b: Ah, I see. 17:32:06 Fair enough, just thought I'd confirm. 17:32:37 I simply thought that they were treated as returning NIL values when evaluated, but I suppose that's context defined. 17:33:04 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:14 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:33:27 <_3b> multiple-value-bind and nth-value default to NIL when they run out of values, as does using (values) in a context that expects a single value 17:33:50 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:39 -!- milanj [~milanj_@91.150.119.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:50 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:53 ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 17:39:18 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:39:35 milanj [~milanj_@77.46.251.207] has joined #lisp 17:39:36 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:07 ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 17:40:11 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 17:40:22 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:41:07 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 17:43:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:45:48 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:50 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 17:46:06 ][V][ICHAEL [~user@207.178.208.5] has joined #lisp 17:48:09 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has joined #lisp 17:48:39 Good evening everyone! 17:48:53 Hello beach. 17:49:50 beach: hey hey 17:50:17 skihero [~kish@59.164.231.114] has joined #lisp 17:50:23 *beach* is in a terrible mood, and hopes that this won't show too much. 17:50:49 beach: you should write some lisp code for fun! 17:51:03 that always cheers me up :) 17:51:05 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:51:12 minion: tell beach a joke 17:51:13 beach: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 17:51:26 that's a funny joke.. 17:51:41 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 17:53:17 beach, the state of the world or something personal makes your mood terrible? 17:53:45 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 17:54:08 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:54:40 _3b: what do you think about my cl-glut problem? 17:55:30 Lycurgus: I spent all day talking to people coming here to fix things, and then had to clean up after them on top of that, and answering calls from sales people. It turned my entire day into a patchwork of 5-minute periods of "concentration" whereas I actually had something interesting to think about. 17:56:57 <_3b> Xach: not sure 17:57:34 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:57:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 17:58:04 <_3b> Xach: would adding a special you could bind or something you could add to *features* to avoid calling init be enough? 17:58:06 huangho [~vitor@201-66-209-190.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:58:39 _3b: why not allow the error to happen when glut is _actually_ run? 17:59:09 _3b: it would kinda suck to special case it, but it's better than nothing. 17:59:13 (as opposed to trying to initialize it at load time) 18:00:09 <_3b> sykopomp: feel free to send a patch :) 18:00:25 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:40 _3b: if you think that's acceptable, I can. 18:00:55 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:01:16 <_3b> 'that' isn't specified well enough for me to have an opinion at the moment 18:01:41 <_3b> if 'that' is 'works better in all cases with no performance impact' then sure :) 18:01:51 _3b: I'm suggesting removing the (init) call in glut/init.lisp, so that you don't try to initialize glut until you actually try to _run_ it. 18:01:57 <_3b> otherwise i'd probably apply it anyway rather than having to think about it 18:02:30 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:31 <_3b> if you've tested it and made sure it doesn't make the normal use cases worse 18:02:31 according to the comment, it's there simply to warn users early about not having glut set up properly. I say they'll find out soon enough if they actually intend to run it. 18:02:43 <_3b> (on multiple platforms, etc) 18:03:31 *_3b* reads the comment as saying 'make sure glut is initialized, so freeglut doesn't randomly kill your lisp image' 18:04:18 my poor lisp image is getting killed, too. 18:04:50 <_3b> right, so i'll accept that the current fix is wrong/insufficient 18:05:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:23 <_3b> i just don't have any time to dedicate to figuring out whether other fixes would cause regressions for other use cases 18:05:27 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 18:05:52 Is GLUT sufficiently well-defined as to be rewritable in Lisp? 18:06:07 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:06:36 <_3b> probably not much point in doing so 18:07:17 Fair enough. 18:07:49 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:08:05 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:08:22 <_3b> if you aren't trying to maintain compatibility with C code that uses glut, might as well just start from scratch 18:09:23 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 well, that was stupid. I represented a sequence of locks to release with intrusive next-lock pointers, protected by the same lock. Remember to read the next pointer *before* releasing the lock (: 18:09:38 <_3b> at which point the useful thing to do would be to improve glop instead 18:10:04 *sykopomp* agrees. 18:11:24 good evening 18:11:27 -!- ost` is now known as ost 18:11:35 Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:14:16 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:15:14 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:26 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:16:48 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:03 -!- toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:17:10 woah, just found this lil thang: http://cl-heresy.sourceforge.net/Heresy.htm 18:17:17 someone should submit it to /r/lisp :-) 18:18:20 So it can be flamed at the stake? 18:18:39 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:18:48 *Xach* bookmarks it for quicklisp 18:20:09 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:21:22 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.155.167] has joined #lisp 18:21:27 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 18:22:05 -!- prip [~foo@host97-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:23:33 nyef: /r/lisp is not for discussion, more like archiving and SEO 18:23:41 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:06 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:08 the name is good, anyway :) 18:26:14 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:20 Hello everyone. Is there a patch library for lisp? 18:26:31 Lis: in what sense "patch library"? 18:26:34 for maximum effect, submit to /r/haskell :) 18:26:51 ah sorry p_l I meant a diff library 18:26:56 Good evening 18:27:16 a library who compares 2 files and spits out their difference 18:27:26 better a 3 way diff library. 18:27:57 Lis: I saw a small utility in the CMU AI repo; probably ancient 18:28:24 Lis: there's cl-difflib 18:28:33 thanks 18:28:39 has anyone *already* tried to run ECL on Android? (Don't look at me, I barely had mine for a week, it takes time to setup the phone then crosstools xD) 18:28:53 p_l yes 18:29:05 but I just are not finished compiling it. 18:29:28 I think it would be better to port clojure to android, since android has a java vm. 18:30:07 http://www.google.de/#hl=de&source=hp&q=clojure+android&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=340825e95a231672 18:30:26 Lis: except DVM internals aren't really close to JVM internals 18:30:27 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:30:35 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.4.60] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:31:32 p_l you want to code lisp on android or you want to code with lisp for android? 18:31:42 Lis: both 18:31:50 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:32:12 well the second one is already possible. http://github.com/remvee/clj-android/ 18:32:41 beach, well glad to the hear the thing making your mood terrible is also something you get a paycheck for :) 18:32:56 woah, Lycurgus! 18:33:02 it's been years man 18:33:32 were you fusss then? 18:33:46 probably not 18:33:49 ah 18:33:58 i used to tease you about your name, founder of Sparta ;-) 18:34:32 Lis: http://web.archive.org/web/20061128085618/http://www.cs.rice.edu/~froydnj/lisp/diff_0.4.tar.gz 18:35:02 actually he was the founder of the classical state, the polity existing before him 18:35:20 p_l and here you have text about somoene who is porting clojure to android http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/14725172c626642c?pli=1 18:35:25 prip [~foo@host136-122-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:35:38 Lycurgus: Thanks, but I don't get paid to receive handymen at home, but to teach and do research. Granted, I am on vacation, but I would rather spend it differently. Thanks for your concern though! 18:36:13 thank you Lycurgus 18:36:25 oh, I thought fix things and sales people referred to coworkers 18:36:55 Lis: the issue is that Clojure is quite slow on Android, and it's not CL. ECL is there just for playing around, and I'm looking into specific Lisp-like environment designed for DVM 18:37:22 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:37:22 Lycurgus: I probably expressed myself sub-optimally given my shitty mood. 18:37:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:37:40 no, I made and unwarranted assumption 18:37:43 *an 18:38:05 *hasty inference 18:38:20 Don't worry about it. 18:38:42 Thanks for your concern. 18:38:54 evening 18:39:01 Hey Krystof 18:39:15 Krystof: Are you on holiday yet? 18:39:18 Hello Krystof. 18:40:09 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:14 p_l: mh. Well I dont know weather ecl needs some modifications for arm processors but you can just compile ecl into an so file and implement the REPL with java. Relink the standart streams and it should work. Android 2.1 supports external foreign libraries. Thats how quake2/quake3 was ported to android. 18:41:17 Lis: yeah, that's an option, however another way would be to write a SWANK client in java and run ECL as an application :D 18:41:27 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 18:41:55 holiday? haha, no 18:42:11 p_l you can look at the source of http://code.google.com/p/kwaak3/ to know how it is done. 18:42:13 I have had my holiday for the rest of eternity, and now what stretches in front of me is a broad vista of stress 18:42:26 grumpiness of release manager is almost guaranteed 18:43:55 p_l: yes if you just use ecl on your own device. But you need to recompile ecl for dozens of architecures if you want it to be used on more devices. Since the android devices (and thats a good think :D) not have the same processors. 18:44:25 Lis: for now, as long as I keep it compatible with ARM9 and with soft-float, it will work everywhere :P 18:44:53 and I doubt it to change soon 18:45:00 Krystof: Sorry to hear that! 18:45:03 especially since more and more stuff is tied to ARM 18:45:38 well, at least some of the stress has a chance of being fun stress 18:46:00 p_l: aaah... I don't think it is that easy. Many people tried to run foreign code on android devices and they all runned into the same problem. 18:46:12 it will be punctuated by cliffs of stress, and mediated by herds of wildebeest sweeping across the plains of stress 18:46:26 but at some points, there will be a view of the sea 18:46:49 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:47:02 Nice imagery. 18:47:14 Lis: if it's statically compiled, it will work without problems, there's even an equivalent of run-program available from Java 18:47:18 Krystof: Too indirect and poetic for me, but I get the point. 18:47:21 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:47:48 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:48:00 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:05 Lis: the issues are usually tied to 1) lack of knowledge regarding preparation to run native code (something NDK does automatically for *.so) 2) lack of preparation of binaries in a way that doesn't bomb 18:48:12 p_l: Try it and tell me if you succeeded :D 18:48:29 beach: I highly recommend Fawlty Towers to you, then 18:48:49 Lis: I'm currently building a crossbuilding toolchain, cause I need to modify my kernel :/ 18:48:52 p_l: 1 is already solved. There is also asm/c/c++ code floating throught the net. 18:49:06 p_l: just use google. 18:49:20 Krystof: Oh, I have seen it, and I like it very much, but I haven't seen every episode, and I probably wouldn't remember it anyway :( 18:49:27 (then I need to build some applications - which I'm going to statically link with uClibc - to resolve a certain issue that no-one at google is willing to fix for 2 years now) 18:50:07 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:50:10 Fawlty Tower, is there anything better? 18:50:14 p_l you do not need 2 you can just compile to native code with the google delivered toolchain and your code works on your device. Really use google there are people who made that already. 18:51:05 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:51:07 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:51:11 pjb: Monty Python? 18:51:26 With John Cleese, yes. 18:51:54 Lis: 1) NDK won't build kernel modules for me 2) NDK won't build native *applications*, it only builds shared libs (well, it can compile applications, but it's a can of worms 3) Full Android buildsystem includes building a cross toolchain anyway (and I'm thinking of rebuilding the whole system) 18:52:11 -!- R3KoN [~innapropr@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:07 i dont want to argue with this guy 18:53:10 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:53:32 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:32 there was me thinking that John Cleese's oeuvre was off-topic 18:56:13 rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 18:57:09 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:21 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 hors d'oeuvres vich must be obeyed at all times vithout qvestion! 18:58:01 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 nyef: I put describe-component into ir1-convert, and got near 100K of log which shows how the problem with nonlinear LVARs evolves. But I need some help to understand the log elements... 18:59:12 *stassats* ponders on how to make commonqt more lispy 19:00:12 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:00:48 SB-C::%UNKNOWN-VALUES - what is the purpose of this function? 19:00:51 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:00:52 rmarynch: Oh dear. My mental model is based around the intersection of LVARs and stack analysis. 19:01:15 besides clim, is there any other information on "lispy"-GUIs? 19:01:27 There's garnet. 19:01:49 minion: tell us about garnet 19:01:50 us: have a look at garnet: Garnet is a user interface development environment and Graphics Toolkit for Common Lisp and X11 or Macintosh developed by the User Interface Software Group in the Human-Computer Interaction Institute at Carnegie Mellon University. http://www.cliki.net/garnet 19:02:21 nyef: so, the component is correct before ir1-phases gets called? 19:02:31 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-hdcejsyodvjmtbix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:47 rmarynch: Essentially, though, what you have is an exit point which needs to take one of N LVARs depending on where it is entered from and results in a single LVAR. 19:03:07 (If I disappear, BTW, blame the thunderstorm overhead.) 19:03:35 nyef: Yow. That is an angry radar image. 19:04:50 Mmm. Fast-moving, at least. 19:05:22 And not -much- cloud-to-ground lightning, it seems. 19:05:40 nyef: how comes that the return value is finally corrupted? even in case there are two writers to the same LVAR, the final value should be ok. Is that the stack-cleanup who spoils it? 19:05:54 Semi-sortof. 19:06:11 The problem is that the LVAR gets written twice over some control flows. 19:06:19 vtz [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:06:42 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 19:06:45 And the stack analysis assumes that any LVAR written within a block is not live on entry. 19:07:01 oh, how could i forget CAPI 19:07:09 Thus adds a cleanup to remove a live LVAR. 19:07:51 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.219] has joined #lisp 19:08:42 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:11:18 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 19:12:11 nyef: understood. But did you mean 'on exit' ? 19:12:48 No, on entry to a block, any LVARs written to in the block are deemed to not yet be live. 19:13:24 stassats: there's also whatever ORBIT used, I think. 19:13:35 (am I confusing orbit with something else? 19:14:04 orbit, the scheme compiler? 19:14:07 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:36 http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.06/06.08/PearlLisp/index.html Ah no, I was thinking about this, instead. 19:15:23 nyef: I can imagine a 'simple fix'. We should count the writers, and do not discard the LVAR until there is a 'possible write' in the future 19:16:16 rolando [~user@50.132.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:16:49 Problem is that stack analysis is done on a per-block basis, and the LVAR is live until it is overwritten. 19:17:02 And, at that, the changeover happens within the body of a single VOP. 19:17:14 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.149] has joined #lisp 19:17:27 nyef: thats worse 19:19:28 -!- rolando [~user@50.132.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:04 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:24 Really, what we need is an SSA-style Phi function. 19:21:25 -!- cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:21:38 nyef: too big change, and possibly incompatible with CPS. Or not? 19:21:47 -!- skihero [~kish@59.164.231.114] has left #lisp 19:22:27 It's for -one- use. Doesn't have to be full SSA, just that that's the concept to use. 19:23:20 I have somewhere a message from Rob MacLachlan about loop analysis and ssaifying cmucl 19:23:32 it has been thought of for about as long as ssa has existed 19:23:36 the problem is time 19:23:45 The problem -always- is time. 19:23:46 (or, equivalently, money) 19:23:51 nyef: we need some interblock analysis, not necessarily SSA. A home-made algorithm could do 19:24:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:24:08 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:24:10 Right, and it's only one point that's known to fail. 19:24:26 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:24:32 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 19:24:35 cthuluh [moo@wxcvbn.org] has joined #lisp 19:24:44 huh. the sbcl cvs conversion really isn't working right. 19:24:45 wtf. 19:24:56 nyef: there is also 'block-compilation' bug. returns 4 vs 11, or so 19:25:15 nyef: is that from the same bugs family? 19:25:18 (but hey, at least it's refusing to convert, not creating very wrong patch sets) 19:25:25 Mmm. And some exponential blowup somewhere (lifetime analysis or type analysis?) 19:25:33 I don't know, actually. 19:25:43 what does it mean when SLIME highlights some frames in backtraces, when you compile with (optimize debug)? 19:26:00 I find the backend to be very easy to work with, but the frontend is still largely a mystery to me. 19:26:17 sykopomp: might be restartable frames? 19:26:18 sykopomp: that they're compiled with (optimize debug) 19:26:21 -!- vtz [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:23 ah, that (: 19:26:35 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 19:26:37 nyef: It is comparatively easy. The recursion is everything there :) 19:26:37 stassats: oh, so it just means they have extra info in there? 19:26:38 vtz [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:26:39 antifuchs: CPS? 19:26:46 stassats: thanks 19:26:59 rmarynch: compared to what? 19:27:05 beach: CPS? 19:27:36 antifuchs: "the sbcl cvs conversion really isn't working right" 19:28:03 beach: The git gateway. 19:28:08 beach: cvs -> git 19:28:21 actually, originally it means restartability, but since it comes after (optimize debug) it means both 19:28:21 Ah, OK, sorry! 19:28:24 version control, not code transformations (: 19:28:31 nyef: SSA at the IR2 level is less hard than IR1, but ISTM we'd really want it in IR1 :\ 19:28:36 -!- benny [~user@i577A8590.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:29:18 pkhuong_: I'm not disputing that, what I'm saying is that I still don't have a good model for IR1. 19:29:21 nyef: it is hard to say :) I mean that it is easy to analyze 19:29:30 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-189-128.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:51 I think RAM's memo on SSA was on ir2 blocks too. 19:31:40 In case there are many (or several) people interested, we may come up with some architecture draft. At least on the paper 19:33:05 Aren't LVARs already pretty close to SSA anyway? 19:33:20 ok, got the converter bug: I was still calling git-cvsimport, but the syntax had changed to "git cvsimport" a long time. an upgrade pulled the hard deprecation in. 19:33:28 yes, but we have regular settable vars too. 19:33:29 stuff is being imported now. 19:33:37 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:34:51 testtesttest [5cede29f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.237.226.159] has joined #lisp 19:36:02 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-189-128.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:37:22 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:34 thanks for the hint, nyef and fe[nl]ix. 19:37:55 I should have noticed this earlier, but after I did the upgrade, boinkmarks ran correctly, and then I forgot 19:38:36 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:39:03 And what is the rough estimate (man-hours) for SSA in SBCL? Six months or so? 19:40:05 really depends on how you want to do it. 19:40:16 as an IR2 pass, probably a couple weeks. 19:40:34 in the best way, of course :) 19:40:46 But that'll tend to duplicate logic. As a change to IR1, it might be better to try and redesign the IR from scratch. 19:41:33 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:41:42 Is there the established interface to IR2? Or IR1 and IR2 are coupled tightly? 19:41:59 (I mean how independent they are) 19:42:05 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:09 Bronsa [~bronsa@host197-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:55 as the compilation phases 19:43:21 very independent. 19:43:26 They don't even share the same types. 19:44:04 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:45:19 But could we count two more things: GPGPU support and implicit parallelism - while designing that new IR? 19:46:08 -!- testtesttest [5cede29f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.237.226.159] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:46:18 rmarynch: looks like an excellent way to ensure there's never any traction. 19:46:45 <_3b> compiling on gpu sounds fun :p 19:46:52 in the second point I mean the loops which spawn threads to run several independent parts of their body 19:47:31 Our threads are far too heavyweight for that to be a win. 19:47:51 nyef: thread pool. 19:48:18 Yeah, that might work. 19:48:21 for GPGPU, this is something like (with-gpu-arrays (a b) (launch-on-gpu #'calc-something a b)) 19:48:44 a and b are automatically mapped to GPU memory and back 19:48:51 error handling and special-variable access would suck, though. 19:49:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-216.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:49:38 intel made it sort of work on C++ with an explicit dataflow graph. 19:49:44 #'calc is compiled into PTX code (for NVIDIA) and launched. This is a man-year project :) But doable 19:50:17 nyef: maybe it should just do that with (optimize (speed #.most-positive-fixnum)) 19:50:25 <_3b> rmarynch: are you thinking of compiling arbitrary code to gpu, or just making it available for explicit use? 19:51:04 I think about numbers/arrays processing on GPU, some subset of CL can be perfectly mapped there 19:51:06 jonathan` [~user@38.96.178.178] has joined #lisp 19:51:20 antifuchs: that's not an (integer 0 3)! 19:51:27 -!- jonathan` [~user@38.96.178.178] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:33 pkhuong_: might have to adjust fixnum ranges, then (: 19:51:56 *_3b* thinks cmlisp would be a more interesting target for explicit GPU use 19:52:21 <_3b> rmarynch: have you seen cl-gpu? 19:52:39 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 19:52:53 _3b: is that a binding to C level API? 19:53:48 <_3b> rmarynch: http://github.com/angavrilov/cl-gpu from the description, it sounds like a bit more than that, but i haven't looked closely enough to tell how much more 19:54:15 <_3b> you will pretty much have to bind to C at some point to use GPU though 19:54:15 it is interesting 19:54:29 yep 19:55:02 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 19:55:25 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:56:13 once more problem: in case we redesign IR, my book draft becomes useless. This is my personal problem, of course, but anyway it is a bit sad 19:56:46 TomJ [~tomj@78.146.190.175] has joined #lisp 19:56:49 rmarynch: you might want to publish the book first, then redesign IR, then write a new revision of the book 19:56:55 twice the money! 19:56:59 vtz` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:57:07 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 19:57:07 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 19:57:12 ok, i'll wait for the second edition 19:57:37 note: this works only if you don't announce it first. 19:57:39 drat. 19:57:53 I do not write it to publish, it is just the documentation effort 19:58:29 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:33 IR ? 19:58:33 it was a bad joke anyway (: 19:58:37 minion: tell me about IR 19:58:38 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``IR''. 19:58:41 -!- vtz [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:47 minion: what does IR stand for? 19:58:47 Instrumentman Recheer 19:59:02 Don't believe his lies 19:59:28 rmarynch: I appreciate your efforts, by the way. your blog posts are really great. 19:59:44 thanks 20:00:12 <_3b> OliverUv: Internal/Intermediate (Compiler) Representation 20:01:37 -!- ike` [~user@lawn-143-215-116-235.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:41 a DSL? 20:01:54 ike` [~user@lawn-143-215-116-235.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:01:57 <_3b> no, just data structures the compi8ler uses betwen source and final output 20:02:26 that is a cool thing to write a book about 20:02:38 OliverUv: there are tons of books about compilers 20:02:45 I know that 20:02:56 I meant compiler specific data structures 20:03:27 I still haven't bought that dinosaur book 20:03:32 about that, too 20:03:46 dragons aren't dinosaurs :( 20:04:14 I mean Operating System Concepts 20:04:36 I think our OS intro course wanted us to buy the 8th ed for like 80 eur 20:05:06 I managed to get the max grade by using google, wikipedia and the lecture slides 20:06:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.154.74] has joined #lisp 20:06:56 OliverUv: directly at the exam? 20:07:07 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:57 So, there will be changes in IR anyway, and it is just the matter of time? 20:08:35 It's been talked about a couple times in the past. 20:08:58 being afraid of the future changes is just an excuse 20:09:07 Hey guys, is there a document describing how to connect to and communicate with the server part of slime? 20:09:31 Sikander: the source code 20:09:33 <_3b> Sikander: i'm guessing slime.el doesn't count? :p 20:10:26 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:10:29 :( 20:10:46 stassats: there is more fun in development, then in fixing the documentation to match the sources 20:10:55 I'm not very fluent in lisp yet, so it will take much figuring out then... 20:11:03 *stassats* remembers that he has a swank client written in shell 20:11:06 rmarynch: ergo, make source and documentation one and the same 20:11:08 ^_- 20:11:20 stassats: You don't know it yet, but I'm your new best friend :) 20:11:32 stassats: care to share that shell script? 20:11:44 let me figure out how it works 20:11:54 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:59 Theoretically, I'd only need a start, and from there I may be able to figure the rest out, together with the sources. The start would allow me to get into the design philosophy 20:13:33 But I'd be very appreciative if you could share what you already have 20:14:00 i just don't remember how to invoke it 20:14:17 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:14:55 stassats: Ok, whenever you have time and figured it out, I'd be very grateful 20:15:11 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:15:44 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-14-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:56 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-13-202.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:16 _3b: since my vi clone will be in cl, I don't feel like translating el to cl by hand. Plus I just want to figure some things out. 20:17:41 _3b: Plus I looked at the slime.el, but found it difficult to read :( 20:18:31 Sikander: there are several swank servers, some are quite small 20:19:07 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-89-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:19:35 Sikander: here you go http://paste.lisp.org/display/113231 20:19:51 though i wouldn't think that it's easier to read than slime.el 20:21:13 i wrote it and i have a hard time understanding it 20:22:26 stassats: Thanks a lot! I do think that it will help, since if I don't understand one part in one of the languages, I can look in the other and try to make sense of it :) 20:23:17 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:24:38 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:59 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:27:10 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:27:19 vtz`` [~user@83.228.48.88] has joined #lisp 20:28:31 -!- vtz` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:29:12 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:32:19 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-142-206.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:41 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 20:34:32 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:34:35 -!- NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:05 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:55 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:37:36 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:51 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 20:38:08 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:38:20 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:48 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:38:52 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-142-206.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:38:55 -!- vtz`` [~user@83.228.48.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:39:28 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:45 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:41:19 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-172.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 20:41:21 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:37 -!- peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:41 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:42:05 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:43:00 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:46:06 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:46:08 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:42 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:08 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:26 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.154.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:13 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:39 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:17 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - 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It'd be one of those flip-flop books that you can read from one side to the middle and then flip it over and read a different book to the middle. 21:21:07 One direction shows how to implement a Scheme compiler in C. 21:21:10 TomJ [~tomj@78.146.190.175] has joined #lisp 21:21:16 The other direction shows how to implement a C compiler in Scheme. 21:22:26 <_3b> and in the middle you have source code that will compile in either language, if reversed? 21:23:06 Uh, no. ;-) 21:24:09 gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:04 <_3b> gonzojive: does IN-PACKAGE in slime-proxy-repl work for you? 21:25:40 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:41 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 21:25:56 _3b: yes 21:26:14 <_3b> hmm, it is killing the connection for me... wonder if i broke it 21:26:48 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:26:48 gigamonkey: sounds fun, which platform would you target? 21:27:04 jvm! 21:27:31 DVM! :P 21:27:32 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:27:46 uh, target jvm with tail-call optimizing scheme? don't think so (: 21:28:06 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:28:09 antifuchs: well, it could be done the way it is done in PAIP 21:28:11 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:21 -!- gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:29:05 anyway, the evil platform to choose would be to make the Scheme compiler target C, and have the C compiler target Scheme (as much as possible) 21:29:05 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:30 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:19 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:03 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:33:03 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:37:52 cowhm [~cowhm@26.sub-97-181-212.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:11 rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 21:41:49 nyef: I am thinking about closing the documentation project in flavor of helping SBCL team to have SSA done. It seems to be the right decision for me. 21:41:52 -!- ike` [~user@lawn-143-215-116-235.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:34 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@26.sub-97-181-212.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:55 cowhm [~cowhm@26.sub-97-181-212.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:02 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:40 nyef: What do you think? It is really hard for me to decide about that - what to do with that book in this situation 21:47:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:48:48 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-209-190.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:05 josemanuel [~josemanue@228.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:50:54 huangho [~vitor@201-66-151-120.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:51:07 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:26 gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@26.sub-97-181-212.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:52 xinming [~hyy@122.238.73.103] has joined #lisp 21:55:23 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 21:57:37 rmarynch: I think that you'd need to demonstrate that SSAification would be a win and would be well-documented before it would be allowed in. 21:57:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:57:59 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:58:13 -!- gz_ [Clozure@clozure-2E21CFB1.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gz_] 21:58:14 -!- gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gz_] 21:58:18 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:58:19 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:34 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:39 gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:58 nyef: I am not going to develop it myself. I can just help other people - this is not a single-person task 21:59:53 Actually, the critical part -is- a single-person task. 22:03:17 too bad. And who is going to be that person? Why can't there be a team? 22:03:20 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@75.128.11.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:37 There can be a team, but someone has to come up with the basic design. 22:03:50 And demonstrate that it will work. 22:04:05 Snamich [~Snamich@75.128.11.42] has joined #lisp 22:04:43 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:33 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:05:49 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 22:06:25 ugh, some weird asdf breakage on ECL 22:06:52 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:13 i wonder if it's due to me using asdf-binary-locations-compatibility 22:07:16 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:07:44 looks like it 22:08:08 -!- gz_ [Clozure@clozure-2E21CFB1.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gz_] 22:08:09 -!- gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gz_] 22:08:40 nyef: I see that it is safe to write the book :) How long SSA for SBCL is been discussing? 22:08:47 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:39 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:48 nyef: probably several years? 22:09:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:10:41 ISTR it being mentioned as a possibility-or-wish back when I first got started hacking SBCL, so it's been years. 22:12:33 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-228-71.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:12:33 nyef: okay, let us assume that it is assigned to me. I will write the book, and investigate possible compiler improvements in parallel. Finally, I will come up with some suggestions on how to make it better 22:12:54 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14:08 That seems like a reasonable plan. 22:14:26 In that, even if it "fails", some good should come of it. 22:15:03 nyef: I would like to add SSA as a new pass, to save my 80 pages as is. This will be optimal, for both the documentation and the compiler 22:15:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:15:58 nyef: do you believe in such scenario? 22:16:36 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:16:38 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:16:58 I don't disbelieve in such a scenario. Again, I'm not familiar enough with this part of the compiler and the related tradeoffs and expected benefits to be able to judge. 22:17:51 -!- bgs101 is now known as bgs100 22:18:05 okay. This is the happy end, and I am going to sleep. Good night all 22:18:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:08 Sleep well. 22:19:13 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:58 antifuchs: sorry for the late reply. Not sure. Perhaps a made up (and thus slightly simplified) instruction set. MMIX or something. 22:24:03 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:38 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:41 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:29 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:29 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:50 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.155.167] has quit [Quit: bye!] 22:33:36 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:34:11 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 22:38:28 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 22:41:08 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77.46.251.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:43 Where is the semantics of :wild-inferiors in pathnames defined? I can find it in CLtL2, but not in the CLHS... 22:45:33 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@228.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 22:46:29 Possibly 19.2.2.4.3? 22:47:34 nyef: thanks! That was right. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/hyperspec/HyperSpec/Body/sec_19-2-2-4-3.html 22:47:53 "Bad place for a wild pathname." now ABCL doesn't want to play with ASDF 22:48:19 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 22:48:28 I could figure out what it meant and find it in CLtL2, but had trouble figuring out exactly what was supposed to be the specification of the semantics. Possibly an indexing fail... 22:49:06 does #\! mean something in wild pathnames? 22:49:31 stassats: I'm looking over the compatibility function now, and I suspect also that compatibility will be imperfect because Gary's stuff worked on classes of component, and Fare's matches on pathnames. 22:50:24 If you have a cl-source-file subtype that has a different output file type, you will lose with asdf-binary-locations-compatibility, because the underlying mechanism is different. 22:50:31 rpg: then maybe remove it altogether? 22:50:42 stassats: No! 22:51:02 asdf-binary-locations was far easier to use out of the box than Fare's new method. 22:51:14 that's why i'm using it 22:51:39 but if there were none, i'd have to read the manual 22:52:57 stassats: I'm looking at the manual now. I think removing (t t) is not the right patch. If ECL can't handle (t t) there is a hole in how the output-translations DSL is interpreted. 22:53:06 <_3b> gonzojive: don't suppose you have any uncommitted/unpushed changes to your slime fork? 22:54:12 rpg: any ideas what ! inside "jar:file:/**/*.jar!/**/*.*" means? 22:54:36 stassats: someone's using too much Java? ;-) 22:54:53 fidess [~user@41.207.203.144] has joined #lisp 22:55:02 hi from Abidjan 22:55:04 stassats: presumably that's ABCL... No, I'm afraid not. I have no idea what the jar Bang thing is supposed to denote. 22:55:21 well, ABCL is complaining about it 22:55:32 stassats: any idea where it's coming from? 22:55:40 asdf::wrapping-output-translations 22:55:48 Looks like it might be some kind of weird attempt to handle nested jar files.... 22:55:54 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Quit: Linking out] 22:55:59 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:02 Or, possibly, some kind of string concatenation gone wrong. 22:56:16 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.84] has joined #lisp 22:56:22 maybe someone was super-excited while writing that path 22:56:37 -!- Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:57:03 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:22 Just guessing, but looks like some fancy form of glob negation to me. 22:57:43 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:57:52 (not that it would do anything useful in bash with shopt extglob on) 22:58:21 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:58:23 stassats: Looks like something only an ABCL maintainer could explain, sorry. 22:58:37 _3b: I just pushed two patches. the most recent is from last night. the other one allows slime-proxy to hook into macroexpansion 22:58:48 bgs102 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 who needs maintainers when you have the source? 22:59:03 stassats: I'm going to put a comment on your ticket to suggest that we should investigate the (T T) failure rather than removing it. 22:59:07 This may explain a bit: http://download-llnw.oracle.com/javase/1.3/docs/api/java/net/JarURLConnection.html 22:59:25 -!- bgs102 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has left #lisp 22:59:32 "The syntax of a JAR URL is: jar:!/{entry}" 22:59:41 Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:00:02 djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 23:00:06 so, this is not accidental 23:00:17 Wow. It's not clear to me that trying to cram arbitrary URLs inside a CL pathname will be a happy thing to do. 23:00:19 are there any elephant users in the room? just curious 23:00:21 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:00:27 -!- bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:00:58 we have only an elephant in the room 23:02:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:02:35 ... "irrelephant"? 23:02:42 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-49.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:47 <_3b> gonzojive: ok, that would explain why in-package doesn't work on stock slime :) 23:03:52 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:04:16 _3b: sorry, i though I had committed all my slime stuff. i'm surprised that broke in-package. do you know why? 23:04:25 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:04:50 toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:05:03 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.73.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:05:20 <_3b> proxy-repl package handling sends a :proxy-event, which falls through destructure-case in dispatch-event and errors 23:05:29 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:31 xinming [~hyy@122.238.73.103] has joined #lisp 23:08:36 _3b: yeah, the proxy-event fix was a while ago. The main fix the REPL still needs is to associate a package with the REPL buffer, not the slime connection. This is a slime fix that I found a TODO for in slime-repl.el 23:09:01 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-193-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 23:09:24 _3b: or we could just commit to using a dedicated connection for a proxy client, and sharing the proxy and lisp repl 23:10:24 <_3b> toggling the main repl between proxy and normal mode was good enough for me, but i don't use the repl much (and hardly ever change packages in it) 23:10:49 <_3b> only tried it with the proxy-repl to see if it worked, since your refactoring broke packages for eval in normal buffers :) 23:13:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:13:20 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:03 <_3b> gonzojive: also, since adding the proxy contribs, i get a 'no default connection selected. switch to nil?' prompt when starting slime, any idea what causes that? 23:14:51 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:55 _3b: that i get too, but I don't know why 23:15:47 -!- fidess [~user@41.207.203.144] has left #lisp 23:16:11 xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:31 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:20:58 -!- xan_ [~xan@125.Red-88-24-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:00 -!- pavelludiq [~user@87.246.26.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:35 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:23 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:29:42 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:54 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:02 <_3b> gonzojive: i think that may be from setting up the proxy event hook too soon, so it tries to call current-connection before slime has finished setting up the connection 23:31:24 good detective work 23:32:10 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:33:28 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:33 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:34:04 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.10] has joined #lisp 23:34:58 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.10] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:19 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.10] has joined #lisp 23:41:27 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:55 Pavitra [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:57 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:08 -!- Pavitra is now known as pavitras 23:45:54 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:46:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:47:51 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 23:47:55 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.119] has joined #lisp 23:50:59 <_3b> hmm, except that it looks like it has a valid connection when the hook is called, but not when it tries to call slime-connection 23:51:22 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:43 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:52:11 <_3b> ah, possibly it switches buffers, and only has a buffer connection at that point 23:53:40 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:54:37 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:55:34 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-152-239.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:57:16 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:57:19 antifuchs: AYT? The cvs->git gateway seems to be either slow or still down. 23:57:33 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:00 _3b: figure out a fix? 23:59:05 <_3b> not yet