00:02:28 drewc`` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:52 -!- drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:16 sellout- [~greg@81.253.38.19] has joined #lisp 00:08:55 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:10:52 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.36.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:10:52 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 00:15:07 bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-193-210.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212.200.192.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:15:45 Does a gnu TODO file have a specific sytax? I noticed emacs highlights bulleted lines: * foo, but it's in outline mode as well so maybe that's what's doing it. 00:20:54 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:27 -!- Edward [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-222.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:27:11 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:27 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Quit: server being moved] 00:34:19 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 00:37:06 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.74] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:39:07 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 00:39:50 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 00:40:33 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 00:46:36 bytecolor: you mean org-mode? 00:47:56 MeshGear [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has joined #lisp 00:48:12 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:19 ephcon 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[~josesanto@bl13-220-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:10:01 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.163.240] has joined #lisp 01:10:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-59-234.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:52 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:21 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-220-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:18 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-27-22.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:13:21 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-60.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:30 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-59-234.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:15:32 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.4.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:33 xinming [~hyy@115.223.130.120] has joined #lisp 01:19:44 sykopomp: um, not sure, modeline says (Todoo Outl Fill) 01:19:45 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 hm 01:21:07 nope, not org mode. 01:22:57 was just wondering if gnu has a spec for a TODO file, google just gives me actual TODO files ;) 01:23:12 bytecolor: you'll have to ask #emacs ;) 01:23:26 nod, thanks anyhow sykopomp 01:23:28 There is a todo-mode. 01:23:48 C-h a is your friend in emacs. 01:27:30 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:28:34 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:24 -!- Madsy^ is now known as Madsy 01:29:36 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0507.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 01:29:36 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 01:30:27 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:48 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:37:19 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:13 antoni [~user@108.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:32 -!- phear [~phear@unaffiliated/phear] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:47:25 matthew_ [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:01 -!- antoni [~user@108.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:54:16 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:09 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:58:02 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:17 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:00:27 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:57 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:53 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:58 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:00 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.22] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:04:18 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:00 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 02:09:02 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:10:00 -!- matthew_ [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:14:41 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 02:17:06 -!- djinni`` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 02:17:14 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:39 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.22] has joined #lisp 02:27:03 any particularly passionate opinions about which continuations library may be preferable? 02:28:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:29:02 sykopomp: ask drewc`` for his really simple monadic style library. 02:29:26 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 02:29:51 drewc``: please tell sykopomp about simple-monadic-style-library 02:30:25 sykopomp: there's a version somewhere on lisppaste. 02:30:45 pkhuong_: how do people usually find pastes on lisppaste?... 02:30:54 rm_ [614c3062@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 02:30:59 besides just paging through until something seems like a match 02:31:27 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 02:31:42 sykopomp: google: drewc continuations site:paste.lisp.org? 02:31:51 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.20.96] has joined #lisp 02:33:38 pkhuong_: that came up with a couple. Not sure if those are the ones you were talking about, but thank you :) 02:34:47 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:37:50 knob [~anon@adsl-64-237-162-31.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:54 Hello everyone =) 02:38:10 I'm trying to remember the site for a Lisp beginner... it was something to do with monkeys I believe?? 02:38:15 any help? 02:38:35 the_unmaker [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:38 knob: practical common lisp? 02:38:52 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 02:39:04 That's the one! 02:39:05 Thanks 02:39:13 You're welcome. 02:39:20 I'm just starting out... reading that with Emacs opened on the other window =) 02:39:47 (: 02:40:04 I tried doing some stuff with PCL but it... didn't really have a lot of exercises up through what I'd read of it (Chapter 7?) and I tend to learn by doing, so... 02:40:26 MeshGear: so what have you done so far? 02:40:33 knob: The trick is to browse the book inside emacs ;) 02:40:59 MeshGear: there's no explicit exercise in PCL. You get to devise your own 02:41:01 -!- Axioplas1_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:41:23 successful lisp seems good 02:41:26 adeht: Started looking at other textbooks, mostly? PCL seems to give a nice big picture overview for tying things together so I go back to it every now and then, but... I have no idea what I've been working through, actually. 02:41:26 Book inside emacs? like man pages? 02:41:31 Successful lisp is one of them 02:41:39 MeshGear: You're not the first to comment this. Only book I can think of available online that has some exercises is the gentle introduction to symbolic computing. But those exercises get tedious. 02:41:41 it boggled me early tho too 02:41:56 I wish lisp books would define thier terms better 02:42:01 lnostdal [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:06 knob: Nah. There's a webbrowser in emacs. Or you can use emacs-w3m package. 02:42:22 Aahhhh.... ok ok... now I follow you. =) 02:42:51 I also just bookmarked the gigaMonkeys site, and the one schmrkc just mentioned, A Gentle Intro to Symbolic Computation 02:42:58 Thanks for the help so far everyone =) 02:43:16 MeshGear: PAIP has plenty of exercises 02:43:38 xristos: I also heard that recommended although it's... pricey. 02:44:00 well worth it 02:44:32 there is also a pdf on the web but it's missing pages 02:45:06 schmrkc: Yeah, I had a similar issue when I was messing around with scheme and HTDP. Lots of exercises but they weren't very... they lacked forward momentum. 02:45:38 I got discourages learning lisp 02:46:02 :( 02:46:07 discouraged 02:46:12 Riht. Ya PAIP is the best bet there. But the trick really is to make up your own challenges. 02:46:41 Or go over to .. what is that site.. 02:46:45 Euler? 02:46:52 right. yes. that's the one. 02:47:01 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:47:18 does lisp have clever ways to share data between boxes? 02:47:26 boxes? 02:47:34 like say have large array on box1 02:47:42 can you copy it ram to ram to box2? 02:47:48 like import an array? 02:47:54 the_unmaker: some did, but mostly people use an ORM these days or explicit message passing these days. 02:47:56 without going to disk? 02:48:01 you can serliaze it and send it over the netwrk 02:48:05 Oh that sort of box (: 02:48:14 FWIW that's gavino 02:48:16 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:48:18 orm=sql database 02:48:27 I thought lispers tended to avoid sql db 02:48:27 I tried doing Project Euler a bit but I... sort of kept writing C-code in lisp for that I guess 02:48:29 tcr1: doesn't seem too bad yet (: 02:48:48 jfyi 02:48:59 MeshGear: Sounds good :) 02:49:11 also i'm possibly really bad at math and not sure what sort of things I was even trying to implement anyway. 02:49:48 I can't remember ever reading a programming book that offered a lot of exercises.. on any language. Other than PAIP. 02:49:58 Maybe I've been missing out. 02:50:04 Either way. Write that book, MeshGear ! 02:50:13 SICP has lots of exercises too 02:50:23 oh right. forgot about that one. So two :) 02:50:32 hmm.. LiSP too. 02:50:33 PAIP also gives you some of the answers ;p 02:50:39 well forget what I just said then. 02:51:43 MeshGear: you could try and write a small game 02:51:47 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 02:52:30 I'm not so much looking for a lot of exercises as I am just... a small number of *good* exercises. Also adeht I thought about doing that "Cloack of Darkness" thing, since that's kind of a standard IF test game. 02:56:29 My biggest problem right now is that I'm very unsure about what Lisp's capabilities even are. I mean, in a theoretical sense, I've heard a lot about what makes it so cool, and that sounds great and all, but it's the practical side of things. So I could come up with my own exercises but I don't feel like I'd be doing them in an appropriate manner. 02:56:39 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-163-129.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:44 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-163-129.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:57:09 MeshGear: figure out a small program you'd like to write and do it in lisp 02:57:20 that's the best kind of exercise 02:57:32 I already mentioned AAL today in another channel: 02:57:51 Jonathan Amsterdam (of ITERATE fame) had a prologish system for text adventures called AAL (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.programmer/msg/5a52f42932e72689?hl=en , http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sources/msg/3c792d55dd8702c1?hl=en ) .. it would be interesting to do something like that for MUDs 02:57:54 and read some code now and then. 02:58:36 MeshGear: Forget all about "appropriate manner". 02:59:34 sykopomp: what kind of monadic style library are you looking for? 02:59:39 -!- drewc`` is now known as drewc 02:59:41 google groups down? 02:59:55 drewc: I'm looking for something along the lines of cl-cont, really. 03:00:09 but I've seen you going on about something you were working on that might be nicer. 03:00:20 I've come across something that seems to beg for continuations. 03:01:22 first question that comes to mind is : why not just use direct continuation passing style? 03:01:57 I kinda like how cl-cont hides a lot of the nasty details. 03:01:58 MeshGear: common mannerisms in CL code you learn like in any other programming language.. over time. (: and then you will still have people all OMG you're not using recursion. why you use loop? lol. etc. 03:02:05 second is, where did i leave my monadic continuation stuff? 03:02:21 drewc: in your closette, maybe? 03:03:01 I mean, I'm asking for continuations, but ideas might be useful, too. 03:03:18 well, what are you looking to do? 03:03:36 I'm handling TCP client I/O. I was having trouble figuring out how to get a _flow_ going. 03:03:44 I'm working on a toy MUD for ILGE2010. 03:04:16 specifically, the task of going like "Hello, what's your name? ..." "Oh okay, let me create an account ..." etc etc. 03:04:39 and continuations seem to be a way to make the code flow more like a regular application 03:05:29 The biggest problem in MUDs, imho is time. 03:05:30 (for an old, failed MUD I was working on, someone came in and modified my code to use this strategy, and it was working quite nicely) 03:06:01 Zhivago: this is for immediate responses. I have a method for 'scheduling' events to happen at a later time, too. 03:06:23 I mean for co-operations. 03:06:37 demopig [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/demopig] has joined #lisp 03:06:50 X opens the door. Y moves through it. X closes the door. The room on the other side fills with water. 03:07:01 okay 03:07:08 what about it? 03:07:12 As for continuations, probably what you're really interested there are coroutines. 03:07:27 if he has continuations he can do coroutines 03:07:30 In IF that problem is simple, since time is bound to one player's turn sequence. 03:07:59 Zhivago: what I _want_ is to be able to write (prompt-player "What's your name? "), and have prompt-player return the response, whenever it's received. 03:08:06 In a MUD it becomes much harder, and most ignore the problem, which makes co-operative problems much less interesting. 03:08:07 i'd simply do state machines + macros though 03:08:23 the state machine is what I'm trying to avoid :\ 03:08:40 sykopomp: the prompt thing maps well to coroutines 03:08:51 sykopomp: Sure, coroutines will do that -- you can implement coroutines with continuations or other things. 03:08:55 but how often are you going to use it 03:09:12 xristos: every single time I directly prompt a player for some kind of reply? 03:09:26 how often do you prompt the player for a reply in a mud? 03:09:27 You might find that using threads to implement coroutines is easier. 03:09:35 xristos: pretty often... 03:09:36 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:01 Zhivago: I don't really want to worry about spawning tons and tons of threads, issues with safety, etc. 03:10:46 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.38.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:38 sykopomp: well, it seems that my latest monadic continuation code is on my other laptop, which is not here at the moment. I'll dig it up for you when i get the chance. 03:11:48 drewc: thanks. 03:12:06 oh, well there's this : 03:12:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/92830 03:12:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:45 it's just BIND and RETURN and a macro for let* notation. 03:13:10 drewc: heh. 03:13:23 drewc: what do you think of continuations as a solution to this, by the way? 03:13:51 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:14:50 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:51 BrianRice` [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:50 sykopomp: isn't most time in a mud spent by the users moving around, executing commands and getting responses ? When do you actually prompt for things and wait for reply (disregard login) ? 03:16:23 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:26 xristos: More importantly: why _don't_ muds prompt you more often?? 03:16:33 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A47C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:40 I can think of so many ways I could make use of prompts. 03:17:20 They do prompt you a lot. The question you're probably asking is "Why don't they hijack the normal context more?" 03:17:32 And the answer is that it's probably because that's really annoying. 03:17:43 that's probably how i'd do it, though again for these simple cases i'd probably just write it in direct continuation passing style. 03:17:52 Needing to figure out when to just say "max" rather than "tell foo 'max'" 03:18:44 Zhivago: context hijacking happens a lot in similar games. 03:19:03 sykopomp: personally i think that if there is a novelty in muds it is in clever event processing and fusion between entities 03:19:27 Consider the case where an agent is waiting for a response from two people in order to do something. 03:19:33 i don't see 'interactive' prompts as something that's missing but maybe i'm wrong 03:20:04 Continuations aren't really going to help you at this point, unless the continuation is just a "receive a message" continuation. 03:20:10 xristos: consider having a complex shop that hijacks your context to make things easier to use, for example. 03:20:19 In which case it's probably better modeled as some kind of context in the agent. 03:20:40 sykopomp: you can make the shop easy to use without it hijacking the context 03:21:15 xristos: context could also be useful for, say, combat. 03:21:31 in what way ? 03:21:40 To make it more boring. 03:21:43 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:56 To prevent you from rubbing the monkey's tummy while people are fighting. 03:22:22 or to make it easier to write code that does complex things? 03:22:30 _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has joined #lisp 03:22:51 -!- brewski_ [~wbruschi@cpe-74-78-76-73.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:23:15 i think that for simple things like login sequence, coroutines work well 03:23:24 not necessarily having to fill your code with variables for each and every context you'll ever be in, no matter how short? 03:23:52 if you try to do the same for combat, you will have to write additional code to take care of multi-entity interactions 03:23:58 it's not a straight 1-1 mapping any more 03:24:09 hm 03:24:14 alright. 03:24:15 at the end of the day you have your state machine for each entity 03:24:30 and combat is simply processing on top of that 03:24:44 so i'm thinking macros would make it less tedious 03:25:54 so lisp is really ebter than python due to better abstractions? 03:25:57 better 03:25:59 i'm speculating wildly btw as i've never written a mud and it's been years since i last saw one 03:26:04 and beter than c due to productivity? 03:26:08 so maybe you can prove me wrong ;) 03:26:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:26:19 I cant get rolling with leanring lisp yet 03:26:23 im kinda stumped 03:26:26 the_unmaker: is that you, gavino? 03:26:29 successful lisp si closest 03:26:32 yeah 03:26:37 Im in pain 03:26:41 I thought so. /block 03:26:47 the: Start by learning ho to spell "can't" "learning" and "I'm". 03:26:59 How, even. 03:27:04 lol 03:27:07 Teehee! 03:27:16 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 03:27:37 And then you can work on not being mentally retarded. 03:27:51 Zhivago: maybe you can work on being harder to troll. 03:27:55 Zhivago are you Russian or a fan of Pasternak or something? 03:30:40 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:57 pizdets- [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:02 -!- pizdets- [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:33:49 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 03:33:58 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:35:27 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:37:06 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:38:13 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:38:31 SegFaultAX [~MK_Bernar@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:27 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:58 -!- the_unmaker [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:44:08 -!- jvia [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:44:34 happycube [~cpage@ip72-194-211-225.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:50 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:47 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:42 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 03:49:45 *demopig* sighs. 03:51:41 araujo_ [~araujo@61.173.116.67] has joined #lisp 03:51:49 Hm. I guessss I could try rewriting some of the standard library functions from scratch 03:52:41 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:45 -!- araujo_ [~araujo@61.173.116.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:48 ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:51 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:53:01 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:53:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:53:47 MeshGear: that's a nice idea.. you may want to talk to beach, he has a project called SICL: http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/ 03:54:52 Yeah that could help. Thanks. 03:55:28 sleepytime 03:58:37 rv509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:51 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:03:46 -!- demopig [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/demopig] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:07:18 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:07:28 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 04:08:15 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:24 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:34 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 04:20:34 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:44 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 04:23:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-121-233.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:45 -!- andrewszhao 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[~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26:07 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:30 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 05:35:07 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@98.14.173.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:36:37 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 05:45:03 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:47:15 hi. my SLIME's sbcl connection is just dying with every error. when i press q to quit the restart menu and go back to the *inferior-lisp*, it says it lost the connection 05:47:44 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 05:47:44 back to *inferior-lisp*? 05:47:54 you're not using REPL? 05:48:26 avallark [~user@59.93.35.185] has joined #lisp 05:48:33 hello all :) 05:48:55 lat: Hello. 05:48:55 losing the connection does not mean that the inferior lisp crashed, stassats 05:49:11 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-106.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:49:32 tcr: i'm wondering why dto is "going back to the *inferior-lisp*" 05:49:48 the inferior lisp continues to play music. 05:49:51 killall sbcl does not work. 05:49:54 dto: What does the inferior-lisp buffer contain? what slime-events? 05:49:54 Consider setting swank:*log-events* to true 05:49:54 *tcr* is actually leaving now to the pool 05:49:57 kill -9 as root is required. 05:50:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:50:16 what kind of errors are you getting? 05:50:47 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-119-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:14 hold on. 05:52:23 just simple undefined function stuff. but it dies right then. 05:52:49 ok putting this on lisppaste. 05:54:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113033 05:55:13 ok, killing the *inferior-lisp* buffer stops the other music 05:55:38 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:52 does this happen without slime? 05:56:43 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-220-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 05:56:57 hold on. 05:57:41 nope. 05:58:06 i need to switch to the other, better computer. 05:59:43 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:55 i'll be back in a few minutes, stassats 06:00:00 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:00:15 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.35.185] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:33 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:46 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-106.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:04 -!- demopig [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/demopig] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:06:23 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:06:51 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest52482 06:10:03 nostoi [~nostoi@80.31.171.175] has joined #lisp 06:11:50 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:57 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07:26:16 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:26:19 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:27:20 timor [~timor@port-92-195-41-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:28:20 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:02 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:31:15 eugu [~eugene@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 07:34:41 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:35:24 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 07:37:05 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:39:06 Good morning everyone! 07:40:31 Hi beach. 07:43:01 Hello lat. 07:43:05 Hello beach. 07:43:26 lat: I was looking for you earlier :) 07:43:37 demopig, hi. 07:44:58 demopig, and why were you looking for me? 07:45:33 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-91-83.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:45:40 beach: I looked at CLIM today! 07:45:49 The spec? 07:46:08 well, LispWork's guide on their site. 07:46:18 which seemed to explain things decently. 07:46:23 I see. 07:47:10 how many of McCLIM's backends _actually_ work? (other than the CLX backend) 07:47:30 sykopomp: I think the CLX one is the only one that works well. 07:47:36 :( 07:47:48 -!- Guest52482 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:47:57 that's really sad, considering what I was reading about CLIM :( 07:48:32 Davsebamse [~davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:49:02 sykopomp: Yeah. I would have loved to have an OpenGL backend for instance. And I would also have liked to have a CLX framebuffer backend, to do things like anti-aliasing better. 07:49:21 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f7ef.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:21 beach: is writing a backend a lot of work? 07:49:40 lat: See query. 07:49:41 sykopomp: Not *that* much. 07:49:51 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:44 sykopomp: The most work is probably with the drawing primitives, unless your display server already implements the exact semantics that CLIM wants. 07:54:13 really? Drawing the primitives with opengl doesn't strike me as something difficult. 07:54:20 getting good text rendering working, on the other hand... 07:54:38 Can tk (used by ltk) display unicode fonts correctly? For me it is displaying some Greek characters as blanks. Very disappointing. 07:54:39 sykopomp: Yeah, like I said, it depends on what your display server can do. 07:55:07 azathoth991 [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:29 how is lisp better than ruby or java? 07:55:50 azathoth991: for one, it's actually on-topic in this channel! 07:55:51 minion: tell azathoth991 about features of common lisp. 07:55:52 azathoth991: please see features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 07:55:58 I think Lisp wins by default! 08:00:03 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:02:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:24 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 08:05:08 I think the work in doing a clim backend is in event handling, isn't it? 08:05:19 text, too 08:05:51 there are plenty of display-only backends (postscript, svg, canvas -- some of these admittedly out of tree) 08:10:40 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-134.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:11:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-7-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:12:31 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:32 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:46 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-51-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:12:56 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:13:44 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:23:52 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:24 hmm, http://ideone.com is neat. 08:28:42 they can execute common lisp in clisp and present the results (sandboxed) 08:29:28 antifuchs: any details on how the sandboxing works? 08:29:33 anyone here running a lisp powered dynamic website? 08:30:01 sykopomp: I'm sure they're using some pre-made mechanism. my feeble attempts at reading /etc/passwd were thwarted hilariously, at any rate (: 08:30:04 azathoth991: cliki.net, common-lisp.net are some examples. 08:30:16 maybe mmapping the file will yield better results (: 08:30:22 I saw coreserver, huncentoot, spiffy and cl-weblochs 08:30:39 sykopomp: http://ideone.com/uaRJ9 (-: 08:30:45 and something called lisp on lines 08:31:02 anyone have any experience making a dynamic site based on lisp? 08:31:07 azathoth991: there's also UnCommonWeb 08:31:33 uncommon web, wow that rings a bell, is that different from lisp on lines? 08:31:43 stassats: i'm still having trouble, and i've moved to a whole different machine 08:31:46 azathoth991: lisp on lines is built on _top_ of it. 08:32:14 there's also dwim.hu, but that's more Hungarian Common Lisp than ANSI Common Lisp 08:32:16 ;) 08:34:01 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:29 teepeedee2 08:35:31 woa 08:35:53 I think that one made /. as 'fastest webserver in the world' or some craziness like that? 08:37:08 yes, he concedes to thsi one guy who inspired him though who made one in c++ called ulib or something 08:37:20 but apparently fast 08:37:45 Lisp can be very fast :) 08:38:25 I think is a webserver can find out 1000 clients wnat same page in next 4 seconds, say, then it can serve it from emmory cache, that will be win 08:38:43 ENOPARSE 08:38:51 you wouldn't believe the bs with tomcat java apache and oracle I go through at work 08:38:56 memory 08:38:58 sorry 08:39:06 I would probably believe you if you told me. 08:39:13 but I'll take your word for it. 08:39:30 abusign computer hardware in epic ways 08:39:33 abusing 08:39:52 with a maximum of inflexability and updatability 08:41:15 sellout [~greg@81.253.38.19] has joined #lisp 08:44:09 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-109-99.revip2.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 08:47:49 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:54:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:33 sykopomp: how are you? 08:58:12 stassats: i'm pretty stuck. slime crashes on both machines on any error and emacs keeps trying to connect. the whole situation has become unusable. 08:58:14 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f7ef.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 08:58:39 maybe i should switch to cvs emacs 08:58:50 i don't think that will help 08:59:06 and i don't have any ideas 08:59:14 why not try vi editor for a while 08:59:27 other than looking at *inferior-lisp* and *slime-events* for something interesting 09:00:10 dto: is your code public? so i can try to reproduce it here 09:00:18 Hmm. I just realized why unbound variables are sensible after all. 09:00:26 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 09:00:38 demopig_ [~demopig@injekt.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:46 They allow independent system to form a consensus without forming a dependence. 09:01:12 stassats: any error whatsoever. starting SLIME and typing (+ 5 'a) 09:01:14 -!- rm_ [614c3062@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.76.48.98] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:01:14 makes it happen 09:01:14 -!- demopig [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/demopig] has left #lisp 09:01:29 e.g., the first system can see that it is unbound and set it up, and the second system can see that it is not unbound and use the value. 09:01:32 dto: just bare slime and bare lisp? 09:01:41 yes. no libraries loaded. 09:01:47 does not occur when running sbcl from the shell 09:01:49 latest slime 09:01:58 and sbcl? 09:02:05 i'm using whatever comes with ubuntu. 09:02:08 lucid 09:02:17 this just broke when i updated slime this week. 09:02:30 but before that i hadn't updated it in a while 09:02:51 a) try updating again, b) if this doesn't help, paste *inferior-lisp* and *slime-events* buffers 09:02:53 error in process filter: let*: sldb-quit returned [Restart not active [NIL]] 09:02:53 error in process filter: sldb-quit returned [Restart not active [NIL]] 09:03:07 To avoid unbound values you'd need defvar to encapsulate the same magic. 09:03:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113036 09:04:05 dto: do your slime and swank agree on versions? 09:04:12 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:04:47 annotated *inferior-lisp* on that paste 09:04:54 how do i tell? don't slime and swank come together? 09:05:03 i saw sbcl compile swank after my cvs update 09:05:22 they do, but you can load different versions 09:05:29 Kenjin [~josesanto@89.214.139.34] has joined #lisp 09:05:29 how do i test 09:05:50 C-h v slime-protocol-version 09:05:58 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:06:27 Its value is "2010-07-30" 09:06:28 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:35 ok 09:07:04 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07:06 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082BE1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:07 i'm going to try building emacs from cvs 09:08:25 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:08:33 i doubt this will help 09:08:47 getting more recent SBCL would be more appropriate 09:08:48 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.38.19] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:00 sellout [~greg@81.253.38.19] has joined #lisp 09:09:01 ok. 09:09:35 do you have anything in your ~/.swank.lisp? 09:09:57 no. 09:10:34 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082F2AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:13:51 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89.214.139.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:14:03 ok i'll look into getting a newer sbcl 09:15:28 -!- 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http://paste.lisp.org/display/113037 <-- !?!?!?!?!?!?!? 11:17:11 could somebody explain just how I managed to break backquote? 11:17:48 it's on a fresh image, btw 11:18:21 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 11:20:41 <_3b> what is it supposed to do? 11:22:50 where is it broken? 11:22:55 ,vars 11:23:01 it inserts nothingness 11:23:10 when VARS clearly has a value 11:23:24 <_3b> not until you call preprocess 11:23:26 or at least according to my understaing of Lisp it does 11:23:30 has ? 11:23:35 _3b: ooh 11:23:40 that was dumb, yes 11:23:42 thanks 11:25:16 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:26:10 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:27:33 beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-145-254.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:27:39 Good afternoon. 11:28:16 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:29:07 Krystof: What is difficult about event handling? 11:29:30 [sorry for leaving before, but my modem didn't make it through the thunderstorm] 11:30:00 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:32:55 -!- kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:35:16 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:20 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:40:17 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:35 In the company I've been working, some of Java and PHP coders always says things like "lisp is dead 20 years ago" 11:41:53 sid3k: Why do you think they say that? 11:42:53 I don't know but it's hard to handle that eric cartman behaviours 11:43:15 In our company we think that Java and PHP should have been killed 20 year ago :-) 11:43:21 sid3k: Why do you care that they say that? 11:43:35 because it demotivates me 11:44:18 until now I don't get them serious but 11:44:55 I think there may be a good way to defend the way we choose 11:45:04 sid3k: The probably do it because they feel threatened by having to learn something new if Lisp were to become popular. 11:45:10 It is explained here: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 11:45:45 thanks for the link 11:45:56 sid3k: Ridiculing the opinions of others is one trick to avoid that those opinions ever become a threat to them. 11:49:16 beach: I mostly speak empirically, in that there are lots of display-only mcclim backends but almost no working event-handling mcclim backends 11:49:36 Krystof: OK. 11:49:50 I would guess that good event handling in a backend involves lots of detail, lots of drudge work and some very difficult mapping between backend-paradigm and clim-paradigm 11:50:55 Sounds plausible. 11:51:21 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:55 ionine_ [~ionine_@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:28 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 -!- ionine_ [~ionine_@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:21 peterhil_ [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:07:21 Davsebamse [~davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 12:12:18 chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.52.177] has joined #lisp 12:17:42 francogrex [~user@109.130.157.242] has joined #lisp 12:17:59 hi did anyone take pics in the meeting (and posted them)? 12:18:11 "One possibility for these people is to discredit other people's knowledge." what an observation 12:18:15 thanks beach 12:18:20 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 12:18:27 why is Bill Gosper so legendary? 12:18:49 sid3k: Sure, I didn't come up with that myself, though. 12:19:52 *beach* hasn't heard of Bill Gosper. 12:20:25 he worked on Maxima and HAKMEM and invented HashLife 12:20:34 fitzjeff [~nickw@188-220-131-190.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:20:52 and he wrote about contiuned fractions 12:29:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:34:35 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:40:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:40:35 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 12:43:04 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-41-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:57 beach: Good-day 12:46:41 hello demopig 12:46:59 demopig: Are you new here or is it just a new nick? 12:47:37 beach: New here, learning Lisp, been here for a day or so, but my shell went down. 12:49:20 (Where Lisp is CL) 12:49:57 demopig: For work or just out of personal interest? 12:50:14 -!- devslashnull [~james@220-253-98-188.TAS.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:39 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:49 Just out of personal interest. It's a good investment, imo. 12:51:29 Indeed. 12:51:34 :) 12:52:21 demopig: Why do you think so? 12:54:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:56:27 Davsebamse [~davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 12:57:02 Zhivago: There are probably much more reasons but probably cleverly designed syntax/semantics, a vast data type, things like runtime typing, gc, macros, it's decent for explorative purposes and seems to have a rich object system, things like first class co-routines/functions and continuations, etc. 12:57:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@125.176.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:57:31 Well, CL doesn't have first class coroutines or continuations. 12:57:43 I guess that's Scheme then. 12:57:54 continuations, but not coroutines. 12:58:01 Ah. 12:58:26 Well, I'm not versed enough to give an educated response, but those are reasons I felt worthy of learning. 12:58:36 Fair enough. 13:01:34 Ah, hmm, CL doesn't have call/cc? 13:01:41 Nope. 13:03:43 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 13:04:45 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:05:00 You can cps transform everythin and build one, at a cost ... 13:06:38 -!- fitzjeff [~nickw@188-220-131-190.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:11 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:37 I see. 13:12:30 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:48 YellowSea3 [~user@d60-65-84-128.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:52 well 13:14:09 is web blocks like the only developed lisp web framework? 13:15:19 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:37 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:58 think its probably time to unsubscribe from comp.lang.lisp 13:15:59 YellowSea3: what do you consider a web framework? 13:16:16 i stopped reading it a long long time but stayed subscribed anyway 13:16:16 YellowSea3: I count hunchentoot as one, for example (: 13:16:46 it feels a little like sinatra or camping, if you are familiar with the ruby ones 13:16:52 all i know coming from a C and Python background lisp looks totally foreign to me 13:16:56 (but at times it feels more like rack (-:) 13:16:58 100 percent foreign 13:17:24 you shouldn't need much familiarity with lisp to know what you want from a web framework (: 13:18:11 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:29 yea i know lisp just looks totally foreign 13:18:36 its almost crazy cause that never happens 13:19:06 YellowSea3: That probably means you will learn something new by studying Lisp. 13:19:36 i mean even though i dont use c++ i can stil see what its doing pretty much 13:20:12 blandest [~user@109.166.142.222] has joined #lisp 13:20:31 yeah it's bit sad how most programming languages are completely the same 13:21:00 I don't like where this is heading. 13:22:06 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:22 -!- kejsaren2 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:42 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:47 soupdragon: The disadvantage of believing that all programming languages are equivalent is that it's not true 13:26:03 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:26:22 elaborate way to say "you're wrong" 13:26:35 *stassats* sniffs a turing tarpit 13:28:46 So give me some ideas on how to improve on CLIM's command tables. Right now, they contain the command-line names of commands, which means you have to have a set of command tables for each language, and multiple hierarchies of them as well. I would like to separate out the command-line name to a structure that can be localized for different languages, but how? 13:29:46 DeadPanda [~Brett@host86-152-63-53.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:49 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:12 (define-command com-name ...) which will create and use com-name structure/class/whatever and then have something like (add-translation 'com-name "rus" ') 13:32:39 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@4306ds4-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 13:33:36 stassats: Yeah, something like that. I am thinking about whether to expose the structure of the translation table, or invent a protocol for it. 13:34:13 i guess you'll also want translations for other things, like messages 13:34:24 Yes. 13:35:46 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.180.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:37:55 I was thinking of defining a class "language" with an instance for each language, but another possibility would be to make a subclass for each language so that one can use it more easily for method dispatch. 13:38:33 Like: (command-line-name *language* 'com-name) 13:38:37 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 13:39:55 maybe thinking in terms of locales would be better 13:39:55 fusp [~khaled@41.104.109.171] has joined #lisp 13:40:29 Wouldn't there be the same decisions to make? 13:41:18 Well, don't forget collation. 13:41:29 -!- DeadPanda [~Brett@host86-152-63-53.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: DeadPanda] 13:41:30 That's one thing that really annoys me with badly done 18n. 13:41:48 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.180.18] has joined #lisp 13:41:49 Zhivago: And that is not defined for locales? 13:42:11 locales add things like different punctuation in some places 13:42:13 "I know, I'll translate these names into Korean and leave them in the English lexographical order!" 13:42:31 That will make people happy. 13:43:07 Also you probably have ordering issues with incrementally constructed commands. 13:43:19 e.g. in English pi is 3.14 and in Russian it's 3,14 13:43:23 But I haven't dealt with CLIM for a while, so ... 13:45:34 Either way, I would have to make a decision as to whether (say) en-us is a subclass of language, or an instance of it. In the first place, I could use ordinary class method dispatch. In the second case, I guess I could use named constants such as +en-us+ and an eql-type dispatch. 13:46:28 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.180.18] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:31 ... where the value of +en-us+ is an instance of locale (sorry, I said language, I meant locale). 13:48:22 beach: why wouldn't you want to use a subclass? 13:48:59 <_3b> subclass probably makes it easier for people to override some specific piece they don't like 13:49:04 pkhuong_: Because it would only have a single instance, I would imagine. 13:50:26 _3b: I guess so. 13:50:28 beach: and then people will imagine otherwise [especially when there are multiple geographical variation on the same language, or inversely] (: I don't really see what you gain with the instance; worst case, you can still define a default instance *en-us*. 13:51:10 OK, this kind of advice is what I am looking for. 13:51:26 There are a few ways to format numbers in french. It wouldn't make sense to have to redefine all the eql-specialised methods when inheritance could let you override only the number formatting ones. 13:51:54 Good point. 13:52:46 Or you could basically have a message-passing prototype object system, which would let you have both singletons and inheritance. 13:53:11 kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:12 So a locale could be a class that inherits from a language class, a country class, a class that defines how to format numbers, a class that determines whether you use Celsius or Farenheit, etc. 13:53:34 kejsaren2 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:36 pkhuong_: I think that would be out of scope for this project. 13:54:09 beach: hash table of (generic) functions (: 13:54:21 Anyway, thanks for discussing this with me. 13:54:58 Well, most of that falls under presentations plus look-and-feel. 13:55:55 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:13 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:59:30 <_3b> anyone around who knows ccl win64 internals? 13:59:49 -!- kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:21 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:26 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:11:34 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:07 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:19:59 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:58 What is the irc channel for the cl.net admins? 14:26:27 Hraban [Hraban@94-226-250-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:26:28 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.223.130.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:27:15 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has joined #lisp 14:28:40 rtoym: #tech.coop 14:28:52 Thanks. 14:36:56 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:08 MeshGear [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has joined #lisp 14:40:02 astalla [~astalla@net-188-153-2-134.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 14:40:07 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:41:02 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:05 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:44:59 fe[nl]ix: What linux system do you use? Would you like to try out my experimental/fixed cmucl that generates executable images? 14:45:01 I just can't do it 14:45:18 lisp is so foreign to me 14:45:42 "You can do it. We can help." 14:47:07 well I mostly do web development not sure if theres enough stuff in lisp for that to benefit me quite yet but i will check around 14:47:52 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:09 rtoym: Linux/x86/glibc-2.11.2; if you compile it, I can test it :) 14:48:36 fe[nl]ix: Fair enough. I'll upload the binary now. 14:49:57 Lisp has so many parenthesis 14:50:19 and my right parenthesis is sorta iffy right now 14:55:29 This could really expand the brain or make it go crazy 14:56:04 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:56:14 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:56:18 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 14:57:27 YellowSea3: you'll learn to ignore the parens. 14:58:33 i mean i am looking at lisp code it seems like many things like if's and let's have no need for a parenthesis, what was the point of them? 14:58:49 How would you get rid of parentheses in if? 14:59:21 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:19 YellowSea3: Keep in mind that lisp takes the approach of data and code being kinda one and the same...there's a tree-like structure derived from your code. 15:00:33 <_3b> YellowSea3: keep in mind everything in CL is an expression, instead of the usual 'expression' vs ' statement' thing in a lot of languages 15:00:36 yea i just noticed that hehe 15:01:09 <_3b> YellowSea3: so you could for example do (+ (let ((a 1)) a) (if (foo) 2 4))) 15:01:47 what is best to use common lisp or scheme? 15:01:57 Invalid question. 15:02:03 Remove the word "best" and try again. 15:02:07 mostly because it really depends 15:02:10 <_3b> common lisp, because this is a channel about common lisp 15:02:16 lol _3b 15:02:27 ah 15:02:35 what is to use common lisp or scheme? 15:02:38 scheme, because we don't want trolls here 15:02:39 EPARSEFAIL 15:02:40 sorry, should not have used the word best 15:02:50 Invalid question. Take a remedial English course. 15:02:52 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:02:52 YellowSea3: Are you a student, or is this something side-work you're trying to learn? 15:03:15 *_3b* 's point was as much that even if you phrased the question better, the responses will still be biased, so not much point :) 15:03:23 troll wantz homeworkz done 15:03:25 I am a web developer for a company, and this is for my own personal thing, i do python development now but if i can do something cool they will allow me to play 15:03:25 fe[nl]ix: http://common-lisp.net/~rtoy/cmucl/cmucl-2010-07-31-exec-x86-linux.tar.bz2 15:03:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-192-231.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 15:04:24 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-91-83.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:24 YellowSea3: You sound about in the same position as I...if you have a CS degree already, then going through SICP may still be kinda helpful - and it goes through scheme. Personally I went with CL, since scheme isn't much of a jump from CL if I decide to go through SICP eventually 15:04:36 adeht, did you smell a whiff of troll to then, hehe 15:05:10 "Unhandled memory fault at #x61." oh well, that's like searching needle in a trace stack 15:05:18 only reason I said scheme was because the gui of drscheme was very popular when people were creating gui's for different programming langs years back 15:05:29 and I have heard scheme is "good" but you know 15:05:52 bloody Qt through bloody FFI 15:06:17 -!- fusp [~khaled@41.104.109.171] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:07:40 YellowSea3: You'll find more libraries with CL, and many really good libraries too. For example, you can spread your web development into CL by using various frameworks. It has more "real life" pracitcal use, at least that's how I feel. Scheme is simpler to use (I believe). So...it's hard to say :) Personally I'd vote for CL just because I was doing the same Q&A 2 years ago (web developer, doing python/PHP/Ruby) and went with CL and 15:07:40 haven't been sorry about that. 15:08:51 -!- astalla [~astalla@net-188-153-2-134.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 15:09:05 TDT: there's less to learn in scheme because there's less, period. The fundamental complexity is a bit higher in scheme (full continuations), but that's it, ime. 15:09:44 Thanks for the clarification pkhuong_ - I haven't used much in scheme so I didn't know for sure :) 15:10:00 TDT: whee do you do your web dev now? 15:10:48 If you can program, you should be able to learn scheme pretty much in a day -- excluding continuations and macros. 15:10:55 as soon as you actually want to use scheme, you have to find the right SRFI (not hard) and learn them (just as hard as learning any other interface, including standard libraries). 15:10:59 YellowSea3: I work in Iowa, mostly RoR at this point, and some PHP work yet. 15:11:10 Ruby :\ 15:11:35 I really dont like its "module" / namespace system 15:11:35 YellowSea3: Yeah, I much more prefer Django, but I'm a minority in the office, as I am with being an emacs user :) 15:11:48 Pylons > Django 15:11:53 Pylons is more like rails 15:12:52 YellowSea3: instead of nonsensical abuse of comparison operators, why don't you answer Zhivago's initial question about IF 15:12:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:56 Django is good too but its very clear its mostly for cms based sites, also it kinda has the zope feeling your in your own little world 15:14:16 adeht: i really dont know much about lisp right now, need a few days :\ hopefully i can learn pretty quick 15:14:31 why quick 15:14:39 why not take Ten Years 15:15:04 well im not that stupid :P 15:15:12 You are calling me stupid 15:15:21 you are if you don't know that it does take ten years 15:15:59 ahhh ok, I see where you guys are coming from now ........you can never learn something 15:15:59 YellowSea3: There's a good article you really should read..let me get it for you 15:16:11 "you can never learn something" - not what I was saying 15:16:16 just donot ruth 15:16:19 I know a c++ guy who said he still doesn't know c++ 15:16:19 rush* 15:16:27 YellowSea3: http://norvig.com/21-days.html -- read this before arguing about the 10 years thing :) 15:16:28 http://norvig.com/21-days.html 15:16:29 read this http://norvig.com/21-days.html 15:16:30 :( 15:16:30 well C++ is nebulous and ugly 15:16:33 hes like 60 and was working for xerox 15:16:34 haha 15:16:43 so there is too much to learn and nobody really wants to learn it all anyway 15:17:07 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:25 "i know that i know nothing" 15:18:03 hmmm.....i have only been programming since 2003 15:18:12 YellowSea3: I will give you one tiny bit of advice..if you decide to go down the CL route, you will need to have a lot of patience. I have been at it 2 years, heck over that now, and I still feel like a green newbie at the language and definitely compared to the knowledge held by others here. 15:18:16 its my only job so I couldn't wait 10 years :) 15:18:53 TDT: that is not so encouraging :) 15:18:58 YellowSea3: but being OK with that is important, and being persistent in continuing to learn and not expecting "overnight results" is important 15:19:09 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:19:10 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:14 I learned ocaml quite well 15:19:18 YellowSea3: The same is true of *any* language out there. There's a lot in programming theory that just takes time to grasp 15:19:22 >> fairly hard language in some aspects 15:19:25 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:48 -!- newbie [~kvirc@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.0 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:19:58 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:56 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-42-172.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:24:04 personal experience, I used the R language then moved to C++ and didn't like it and when I first saw lisp that was it, i said to myself that's the thing for me. It's also a personal taste, not everything can be explained rationally. 15:24:14 commonqt was working half an hour ago for me on sbcl, and it's not 15:25:02 hi Fare 15:25:29 without any reason, that's what you get for using FFI 15:25:31 how is the performance of common lisp? 15:25:31 fe[nl]ix: Once you have the tarball, run (save-lisp "/tmp/exe" :executable t). If that works, then run /tmp/exe. You should get a repl, as usual. 15:25:41 YellowSea3: it's ok 15:25:56 fe[nl]ix, hi 15:26:02 were my changes OK? 15:26:09 <_3b> YellowSea3: implementation dependent (and depends on coding style too) 15:26:47 fe[nl]ix, wrt SA_* and SIG* constants, should I make one enum per category? 15:26:56 i mean about the same as smalltalk , i forget there most popular implementation but yea 15:27:04 or are we talking ruby/python/php/perl ? 15:27:28 YellowSea3: you can google for that information, there's some ubuntu site that has interactive charting options to chart language and speed. 15:27:35 How to tell net.html.generator library (Allegro serve) to produce html code in multiple lines, indented not just in one long line ? 15:27:42 rtoym: it works 15:28:02 fe[nl]ix: It does? Cool! It doesn't work on common-lisp.net. 15:28:16 <_3b> YellowSea3: some implementations compile to interpreted bytecode, some compile to highly optimized native code, with type inference, etc 15:28:27 TDT: yea debian shootout but no lisp stuff on there 15:28:32 Blkt [~user@net-93-146-133-246.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 15:28:36 YellowSea3: are you sure? 15:28:40 YellowSea3: It had sbcl last I checked 15:28:58 Fare: yes 15:29:02 good day everyone 15:29:07 hi Blkt :) 15:29:12 hi fe[nl]ix 15:29:15 <_3b> YellowSea3: sbcl can compete reasonably well with c for some things 15:29:18 YellowSea3: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/lisp.php 15:30:08 _3b: well... 15:30:17 almost 15:30:34 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=sbcl&lang2=gcc 15:30:56 how do enums help over other constants? 15:31:07 easier introspection via gcc-xml? 15:31:20 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:42 francogrex: C is faster! Let's write in C! 15:32:04 yea its not in the overall benchmark though hmm 15:32:22 Fare: that, and a better experience when using gdb 15:32:48 <_3b> francogrex: what part of 'for some things' does that disagree with? 15:32:48 stassats: we almost all do to some extent 15:33:01 is emacs lisp common lisp or its own thing too? 15:33:03 francogrex: i don't 15:33:12 almost all 15:33:14 YellowSea3: it's a separate thing 15:33:28 all kinds of fun stuff 15:33:39 TDT: the 64 bit backend is better loved, these days. 15:33:46 how does it help w/ gdb? you get enum constant expansion? 15:33:51 stuff seems really good for the brain but I wonder how much real world purpose lisp carries 15:34:12 YellowSea3: 100% of real world purpose 15:34:18 assembly is faster, let's write in assembly! 15:34:34 (and compressed binary requires less typing) 15:34:35 Fare: i do... from lisp 15:34:54 adeht++ wow he can sure call em 15:35:16 stassats: wonder if my boss would like to start making all the clients websites in lisp hehe 15:35:27 pemryan [~pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 15:35:46 YellowSea3: again read http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html 15:35:47 dedicated hardware is faster, let's create custom-made computers! 15:37:52 <_3b> wasn't someone compiling lisp to fpga? 15:38:26 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:33 _3b: marc battyani 15:38:35 actually, producing fpga from lisp 15:38:43 different thing 15:39:20 francogrex: yea nice article, still it took alot to convince them to use Python over PHP now lsip heheh they might just fire me on the spot 15:39:24 how could commonqt stop working, i didn't change anything, damn 15:39:38 at least it works in CCL, though segfaults in CCL aren't continuable 15:39:51 not good for development 15:39:52 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-55-127.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:52 YellowSea3: do you have to restrict yourself to just one language? 15:40:12 tell them you'll do what they want and use whatever you can, a mixture 15:40:34 honestly they will do whatever I want really as long as the job gets done 15:40:38 YellowSea3: You can concentrate on the concepts rather than the language itself..and as francogrex said, why restrict to one language 15:41:04 looks like python has some things in common with lisp 15:41:27 no wonder, they're both programming languages 15:41:51 closer 15:42:38 are you suggesting that nearly all programming languages pretty much do the same? :o that they might be, for lack of a better word, complying to a sort of ... universal machine... if you will, that can do any mathematical operation? 15:42:41 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:42:53 dude 15:42:56 nobody is talking about turing machine 15:43:10 why does every single thing anyone says get reduced to a turing argument here? 15:43:15 Hraban: they all lead you to falling into a turing tarpit 15:43:23 there's a lot more to programming languages that turing equivalence 15:43:38 soupdragon: good to know 15:43:38 soupdragon, of course. And 15:43:39 ? 15:43:40 I can't understand why you people are so imperceptive to subtlety 15:43:42 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:46 my infinite speed shall get me out of the tarpit 15:44:16 actually, it's interesting that most programmers defeat turing's argument, making their language NOT turing equivalent in practice 15:44:32 -!- MeshGear [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:44:40 zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:48 Hraban: if you read the article i referred to above you'll have an answer to your questions/wonderings 15:45:04 i'm reading it 15:45:25 or there's my classic argument that C isn't a universal language in the turing/kolmogorov sense 15:46:56 YellowSea3: as an aside, i also work in an environment that is controlled by pointy-haired bosses but there they want you to write everything in SAS 15:46:58 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:47:49 so what did i do? I used SAS but to a minimum: I embedded lisp code in C and made dlls that I called in SAS; that was it, to them i was doing sas and they were happy 15:47:51 can you generate SAS from Lisp? 15:47:53 C is a superset of assembly instructions and a system tool 15:48:15 Fare: not directly, but you can call dlls 15:48:24 zophy: nonsense 15:48:50 I'm sure a cl to sas translator would also be possible if one is motivated enough 15:48:50 zophy: Please don't talk nonsense. 15:49:29 >If you define a language that has car, cdr, cons, quote, cond, atom, eq, and a notation for functions expressed as lists, then you can build all the rest of Lisp out of it. 15:50:04 keep in mind that the assembly C was affected by was PDP-11's ;) 15:50:09 hmm, I think I'd need mathematical operators as well 15:50:19 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:33 all you need is lambda 15:50:34 <_3b> Hraban: depends on whether you are talking practical or theoretical 15:50:36 Well, you can replace car, cdr, cons, quote and cond with lambda. :) 15:51:09 (defun * (x y) (+ x (* x (- y 1)))) ^_^ 15:51:20 oh wait :s 15:51:25 didn't check for when it reaches 1 15:51:46 Hraban: now define PRIN1 15:52:03 (defun * (x y) (if (= y 0) 1 (+ x (* x (- y 1))))) that's better! i think 15:52:09 *Hraban* should really reboot to linux 15:52:09 That's easy -- start by defining streams in terms of lists :) 15:52:23 nonsense is a superset of assembly instructions and a system tool 15:52:27 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-61-82-250-91-96.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:02 Hraban: see, in your definition you need many things, =, +, -, 1, 0 15:53:21 well, i can define + in terms of - 15:53:23 eek, I've been using Forth too long, prefix notation is looking wrong 15:53:36 <_3b> Hraban: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding 15:53:38 defun.. 15:55:30 http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/lambda-calc-div-neg.txt 15:55:54 -!- pemryan [~pem@159.226.35.246] has left #lisp 15:55:54 ooooh 15:56:05 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.157.242] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:58:14 http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/lambda-arithm-div-term.scm ( ??? ) it's... beautiful 15:58:53 "one can probably teach a bird to do that." 15:59:54 phadthai_ [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:54 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:41 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:01:44 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ip68-9-237-174.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 16:01:58 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:02:21 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:31 kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:36 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:37 -!- phadthai_ [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:05:55 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:55 -!- kejsaren2 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:59 timor [~timor@port-92-195-41-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:01 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:12 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:42 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:50 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 16:25:02 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:07 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-97.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:20 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:29:11 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-42-172.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 16:29:18 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:35 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:38:24 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:30 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:02 josemanuel [~josemanue@242.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:43:11 Edward [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-167.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:43:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:44:32 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 16:44:41 fitzjeff [~nickw@188-220-131-190.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:47:00 rvirding [~chatzilla@h86n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-192-231.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:51:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:55:00 how do I compile sbcl to 64bit? 16:55:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:29 windows? you can't 16:55:50 well, you can, but you need to port it first 16:56:04 ok. 17:06:22 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:11:39 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:30 Joreji [~thomas@64-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:13:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:14:24 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:18:59 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:50 okay! cxml-rpc now lives on github: http://github.com/antifuchs/cxml-rpc 17:23:01 ...and has some documentation. whew 17:23:36 -!- _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:26:46 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:31:04 gko [~gko@111.82.108.140] has joined #lisp 17:31:27 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:32:02 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 17:35:09 jvia [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:25 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:54 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:46:00 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-1.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:47:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:43 francogrex [~user@109.130.157.242] has joined #lisp 17:51:01 anybody happily using ECl-10.4.1 ? 17:52:05 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:58:16 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f7ef.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:45 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:28 -!- blandest [~user@109.166.142.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:02:32 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e3915-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:02:40 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e18dc-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:04:30 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.52.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:01 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 18:06:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 18:07:38 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 good evening 18:10:28 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-228-225.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:10:56 francogrex: 10.4.1? i have 10.7.1 here 18:11:06 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:12:41 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:03 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:13:19 stassats: oh, I downloaded on sourcefourge there they had only the 10.4.1 18:13:30 but does it build ok? 18:13:54 it does 18:14:05 fusp [~khaled@41.104.109.171] has joined #lisp 18:14:21 for some reason i'm having trouble with gmp building here 18:15:34 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 18:17:53 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:17:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:20:36 hmm, what do you know, uname -m = 686 ! 18:20:58 the number of the beast, almost 18:21:02 Fullma [~fullma@41.140.153.194] has joined #lisp 18:21:08 I always thought it was i386 18:21:17 it is a beast, I am on puppy 18:21:39 amazing dstribution 18:22:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:23:50 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 18:24:56 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:26:17 ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:17 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:26 stassats: what system you have, do you remember your ./configure options ? 18:28:03 --enable-threads --enable-unicode 18:28:04 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 18:28:16 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:28:18 % uname -m => i686 18:28:26 ok thx 18:30:03 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:50 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:35:20 -!- Edward [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-167.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:14 Edward [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-75-147.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:41:40 Komi [Komi@83.231.92.2] has joined #lisp 18:42:22 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:42:25 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 18:44:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1sXuHnf_lo 18:45:29 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:47:01 -!- demopig [~demopig@unaffiliated/demopig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:56 -!- jbd [~user@67-198-71-121.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:56 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:19 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-146-133-246.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:55:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:55:39 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:56:06 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:57:12 ikki [~ikki@189.139.131.141] has joined #lisp 18:58:05 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: soupdragon] 19:00:14 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:18 demopig [~phear@unaffiliated/demopig] has joined #lisp 19:01:36 -!- ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:39 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 -!- kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:03:09 lambert [~lambert@85.69.171.149] has joined #lisp 19:06:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.157.242] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:08:51 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:58 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:37 clisp has no tail recursion? 19:10:25 you mean does CLISP, the implementation, have TCO? 19:10:39 in any case, it doesn't 19:10:39 Or CL? 19:10:44 well, both then :P 19:11:06 Hraban: it's not mandated by the spec, no. Some implementations still have it, though. 19:11:06 -!- lambert [~lambert@85.69.171.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:16 also if the standard had it, but clisp didn't, or the standard didn't but clisp did, then clisp wouldn't be an implementation of the standard, therefore either way :> 19:11:27 clisp will optimize a local tail call, IIRC 19:11:51 cliki says it hasn't, but the article's incomplete 19:11:56 -!- daniel__1 is now known as daniel 19:12:00 <_3b> well, standards doesn't disallow it 19:12:00 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:22 TomJ [~tomj@89.240.46.92] has joined #lisp 19:12:32 hmm 19:12:52 Looks like it isn't mandated, and there are iteration primtives to serve that purpose. 19:13:02 Hraban: for implementations that do support it, you can use declaim optimize to pick different levels of TCO (including turning it off, for debugging) 19:13:33 -!- Fullma [~fullma@41.140.153.194] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 19:14:06 (defun plus (a b) (if (zerop b) a (plus (1+ a) (1- b)))) and look at (disassemble 'plus) 19:16:09 and compare with (disassemble (lambda () (plus))) 19:16:47 in Clisp 19:17:21 in the first case tail call is optimized, but not in the second, so Clisp doesn't do a proper tail call optimization 19:19:57 hmm 19:20:06 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 19:21:43 -!- demopig [~phear@unaffiliated/demopig] has left #lisp 19:21:44 what exactly does (1+ a) and (1- b) do? o_O i thought operators came first 19:21:53 Hraban: they do. 19:21:57 <_3b> 1+ and 1- are operators 19:21:58 1+ and 1- are symbols. 19:22:18 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:22:27 <_3b> clhs 1+ 19:22:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_1pl_1_.htm 19:22:42 ah, ok :) hadn't encountered them ever, thanks 19:23:04 demopig [~phear@unaffiliated/demopig] has joined #lisp 19:24:21 only the ansi standard document and the hyperspec contain/describe all official lisp functions and abilities? or are there other books available? 19:25:18 no 19:26:39 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:27:18 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:27:34 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 19:27:36 goner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/goner] has joined #lisp 19:27:56 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:33 -!- moah [~gnu@178.1.125.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:31:33 [OT] is O(N lg N) > O(lg N) ? 19:31:54 marioxcc, both of them are sets. 19:32:03 You really cannot compare them this way. 19:32:06 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:21 true 19:37:22 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:36 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 19:38:46 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:41:06 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@242.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:42:44 Is there a way to show all methods for a given class? if I C-d d on gsl:permutation the description tells me there are 43 methods, but how can I list these? 19:43:14 <_3b> C-c I #'gsl:permutation ? 19:43:31 C-c I 'gsl:permutation 19:43:42 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-204-54.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:54:28 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:54:48 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:18 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:56:10 Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host56-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:57:22 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-16.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:57:29 folks, any ideas where (or whether) can I contact the authors/users of cl-xmpp? There is a list of them here: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-xmpp/ 19:58:43 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-8-182.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:45 <_3b> some of those are regulars here, possiblyt in other timezones though 19:59:35 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:07 <_3b> it also has a link to a mailing list 20:00:44 -!- _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:01:01 hm, somehow I failed to spot it :) 20:03:09 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 20:03:22 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:03:27 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 20:04:36 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:39 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 tcr1 [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 20:05:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:09:27 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f7ef.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:11:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-204-54.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:12:13 urandom_ [~user@p548A5391.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:42 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.122] has joined #lisp 20:13:53 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-7-47.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:37 ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has joined #lisp 20:15:41 -!- ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has left #lisp 20:16:10 sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-134-250.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:18:57 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:40 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 20:23:57 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 20:25:51 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 20:27:19 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:30:21 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:17 -!- goner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/goner] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:27 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:32:10 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 20:32:33 goner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/goner] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 20:36:43 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-21-197.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:38:21 hmm 20:39:38 i have a list like (t nil t) and i want to do something like (eval `(and ,@(t nil t))) i know its wrong to call eval so how else do i do it? 20:40:05 <_3b> clhs every 20:40:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 20:40:53 <_3b> or more generally, for things that aren't macros, APPLY 20:41:10 -!- Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host56-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:41:11 benny` [~user@i577A1FF6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:54 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 20:43:55 -!- benny [~user@i577A73BF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:45:20 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:45:50 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:17 it works 20:47:18 kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:29 now if i can only remember why i was writing this function in the first place... 20:48:30 Bronsa [~bronsa@host56-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:49:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:51:38 dreish_ [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 20:51:41 ionine_ [~ionine_@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:52:22 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:52:36 one of the bonuses of naming your functions properly 20:53:03 -!- eugu [~eugene@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:53:49 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:54:51 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:37 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:55:57 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:09 Hi, I'm looking for a data structure with efficient insertion and membership 20:57:39 possibly specialiced for spartial access (to store the open set in a pathfindng algorithm) 20:57:48 ¿any suggestion? 21:00:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:01:01 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:05:02 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:03 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 21:10:09 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:13:14 marioxcc, have you looked at spatial-trees http://www.cliki.net/spatial-trees ? 21:13:46 It might not be what you are looking for since it is for allowing queries based on coordinates or location in regions. 21:13:59 It sounds like your problem is more rooted in graph theory. 21:14:09 I have not used it, so I cannot comment on efficiency. 21:14:11 well, it's for a tile-based game 21:14:23 so I look for coordinates 21:14:37 example: is tile at (23.56) on the open set? 21:14:44 if not, do X and put it on the open set 21:14:48 something like that :) 21:14:53 thanks for the link 21:15:20 No problem. 21:15:50 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-154-24.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:15:50 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-154-24.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:15:50 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:23:57 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:43 kejsaren2 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:19 -!- kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:28:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:29:42 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 21:30:16 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:20 Hi ^^ sorry if i'm asking some silly questions, but i want to learn a functional programming langauge and i'm hestitating between haskell and lisp (with a little preference for lisp) can you just help me to make a decision 21:30:53 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-222-164.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:59 You ask that in a lisp group. What kind of answer do you expect? Besides, lisp isn't really a functional programming lang like haskell. (But I don't know haskell). 21:32:24 yeah 21:32:26 andrewszhao1 [~andrew@221.131.77.110] has joined #lisp 21:32:27 well, there is scheme 21:32:29 which is functional 21:32:42 there are several dialects of Lisp (which is a family of computer languages) 21:32:56 main ones are scheme, and common lisp (the main topic of this channel) 21:33:00 scheme isn't functional either. 21:33:03 common lisp isn't functional, scheme is 21:33:26 sykopomp: ¿it isn't? :S 21:33:28 Wait, what's the new definition of "functional language" this week? 21:33:29 no 21:33:36 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:33:45 Makoryu: semantically side-effect-free? 21:34:03 sykopomp: Uhh. That's "functionally pure language" 21:34:20 Makoryu: having lambda doesn't make a language functional. 21:34:41 sykopomp: I'd agree with that. What does, though? 21:34:49 Pattern matching? 21:34:55 actually i do mathematics..which one could help me better ? 21:34:58 how is pattern matching functional?... 21:35:28 fusp: You might feel more at home with Haskell's mathematics-oriented, unreadable, extremely terse syntax. 21:35:52 *rtoym* always thought doing more math helped with mathematics. 21:35:54 fusp: I think the real difference between Lisp and Haskell is the communities. If you really enjoy bickering with people about pointless little things all the time, you'll love Lisp. If that's not your thing, go with Haskell for now 21:36:21 such negativity. 21:36:27 thanks :) 21:36:55 oki maybe i'll go with lisp 21:37:04 so common lisp ? 21:37:20 fusp: I like common lisp. This channel is dedicated to it, though. 21:37:25 fusp: The question of which Lisp to choose is one of the things people always bicker about 21:37:46 fusp: And also the question of what languages qualify as Lisps 21:37:51 fusp: Common Lisp isn't so much a functional language, but it's multi-paradigm, and supports many neat things -- including proper closures. 21:38:04 minion: features? 21:38:05 features: Common lisp allows implementations to have extensions, and has an official way of testing for them, via membership of the *features* list. http://www.cliki.net/features 21:38:11 hmmm 21:38:27 What was the link to that blog post with a summary of CL's features?... 21:40:03 hmm it semms difficult to make a choice since i don't have any idea :s 21:40:49 fusp: I would recommend starting with Scheme and then reading Practical Common Lisp 21:41:32 Makoryu, okii i'll do like that ..thank you ^^ 21:42:05 fusp: I don't really agree with him. I don't understand the suggestion. 21:42:17 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:23 minion: please tell fusp about gentle 21:42:23 fusp: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 21:42:31 gentle is a great text, so is PCL. 21:44:22 -!- Hraban [Hraban@94-226-250-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:45:30 xinming [~hyy@122.238.77.253] has joined #lisp 21:47:42 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-222-164.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:39 hmm so should i start by reading gentle ? Makoryu , sykopomp , minion 21:48:48 ¯\O_o/¯ 21:48:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-205-192.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 21:49:05 fusp: yes 21:50:26 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:39 i really liked "A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" , its awesome 21:52:10 oki dokii..thanks all ^^ 21:52:11 Hraban [Hraban@94-226-250-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:53:40 -!- kejsaren2 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:55:44 ephcon [~ephcon@97.80.103.25] has joined #lisp 21:56:43 mathrick: how many women use emacs vs. men? 21:56:58 how would I know? 21:57:06 pjb: that can be parsed in some interesting ways. 21:57:11 heh 21:57:15 :-) 21:57:29 Anyways, we can guess than less than 5% of emacs users are female. 21:57:50 Therefore emacs-deldo won't have a big market... 21:57:59 um 22:02:14 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:02:41 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:02:58 -!- andrewszhao1 [~andrew@221.131.77.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:28 fusp: I have been told the SICP is a good one: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 22:03:32 it uses Scheme 22:03:42 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:53 It's not specific to scheme, tough 22:04:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-205-192.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:04 Kenjin [~josesanto@188.140.18.130] has joined #lisp 22:05:32 Indeed: http://www.codepoetics.com/wiki/index.php?title=Topics:SICP_in_other_languages http://eli.thegreenplace.net/category/programming/lisp/sicp/ 22:05:42 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 22:07:49 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:07:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.163.240] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-143.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:08:20 _ace4016_ [~jmarcelin@adsl-11-98-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:32 francogrex [~user@109.130.157.242] has joined #lisp 22:10:57 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@188.140.18.130] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 22:12:04 thank you marioxcc, pjb 22:12:15 :) 22:13:49 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:11 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host56-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20:48 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:22:51 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:56 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@97.80.103.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:23:33 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.163.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:28 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.163.240] has joined #lisp 22:25:46 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-228-225.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 22:28:33 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:09 wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.46] has joined #lisp 22:29:25 well 22:32:59 -!- fitzjeff [~nickw@188-220-131-190.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:34:30 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:27 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.178] has joined #lisp 22:40:39 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-52-179.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:40:55 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 22:41:58 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-10807.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:43:24 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-145-254.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:36 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-23-121-25.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:41 andrewszhao1 [~andrew@221.131.77.46] has joined #lisp 22:44:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:08 -!- andrewszhao1 [~andrew@221.131.77.46] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:22 -!- sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-134-250.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:46:33 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:28 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:54:34 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:45 jmbr [~jmbr@141.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:57:52 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-34-211.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:30 seg_ [~seg@adsl-99-36-231-80.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-121-233.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04:30 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-40-253-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-180-79.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:25 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-34-211.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:14 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.157.242] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:21:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:23:01 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:08 newbie1 [~kvirc@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:23 -!- newbie1 [~kvirc@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:32:14 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.46] has joined #lisp 23:33:20 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:19 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.238] has joined #lisp 23:40:31 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:41:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:51 bobrown [~user@static-72-89-161-74.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:58 Any asdf hackers around? 23:46:15 So far, only asdf users. 23:46:22 Might work .... 23:46:58 I have some test code that relies on a data file being present when tests are run. 23:47:54 The code currently uses *compile-file-truename* or *load-file-truename* to find the test data file. 23:49:01 With new ASDF 2.x the code ends up looking for the data file in ASDF's fasl cache directory, which fails. 23:50:00 What's the canonical way to deal with test data files ... files that need to be around when running (asdf:operate 'asdf:test-op 'my-system) ? 23:51:03 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:12 perhaps specifying that it's a source-file would make asdf search it in the source directory? 23:51:22 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.92.2] has quit [] 23:51:59 It's not ASDF that can't find the test file. It's my test code. 23:52:28 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 23:52:56 bobrown: oh. I would try to use asdf functions to find the path to a component... 23:53:00 The test code needs to have some handle to its original location. 23:53:29 Possibly the test code can query the location of its component. 23:54:04 asdf:system-source-directory for example. 23:54:35 Or asdf:system-relative-pathname 23:54:41 yes 23:55:09 It's a bit odd, however. Then the code becomes dependent upon having been loaded with ASDF. 23:55:27 You can always insert an indirection. 23:55:34 <_3b> do you read *compile-file-truename* at compile time or load time? 23:55:49 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.171.216] has joined #lisp 23:55:56 (defvar *my-path* #+asdf (asdf:system-source-directory :myself) #-asdf *load-pathname*) 23:56:33 pjb: yes, something like that would work 23:56:47 _3b: At compile time I think. 23:57:01 <_3b> bobrown: with #. or similar? 23:57:10 *_3b* would expect it to work in that case 23:57:32 I've got a DEFCONST that evaluates an expression with *compile-file-truename* in it. 23:58:09 (defconst +pwd+ (make-pathname :directory (pathname-directory (or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*)))) 23:59:54 (defconst +test-file-name+ (merge-pathnames "test-file" +pwd+))