00:02:00 -!- davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:53 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:24 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:36 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:03 jhalogen: #5 00:06:24 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:30 rvirding [~chatzilla@h86n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:20 sykopomp: wow, thanks. i have yet to use flet, very cool 00:08:46 -!- beach```` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-20-85.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:08:57 sykompomp: is that using the working #4? 00:09:12 no, I haven't tried it 00:10:04 sykopomp: don't worry, i'll change it, your definitely works though 00:11:01 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:26 now my guilt for using read-from-string is gone 00:19:22 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:24:40 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.117] has joined #lisp 00:27:40 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:45 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:28:02 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:03 -!- svitalnes [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:28:34 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:45 Hey, here's a cool idea for a user interface (stop me if this exists) 00:28:51 I mean on the command line 00:29:06 svitalnes [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:29:13 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:25 I want an interface like the Aliens had on District 9. 00:29:54 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:30:03 You have a shell where all the builtins, including most of the standard Unix commands that wouldn't otherwise be builtins, are actually hooks that signal a master Lisp image to fork and run a function on its input 00:30:30 And you can connect to that master image with SLIME (or something like it) and edit stuff as you please 00:30:43 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:30:54 I guess there would have to be a special macro for designating a function for export to the shell 00:31:54 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:32:06 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:33:42 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:33:47 And maybe the shell and the master image could even be the same process 00:34:45 So that you can just start a new shell to get the original `ls` command, if you don't remember how to change it back to what it was 00:35:04 ...Maybe with a command to enslave a shell to a running image 00:35:05 Hmmm 00:36:00 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:36 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-67-170-242.shv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:48 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-67-170-242.shv.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 00:37:11 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-6-86.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:08 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:33 Does this strike anyone as needlessly complicated, or what? >_> 00:49:41 I really can't understand what that's suppose to do... 00:50:03 You can use CL as a shell script if you want 00:51:23 Well naturally you can just call functions directly, yes 00:52:04 I guess this is how all true lispers just naturally interact with the operating system 00:52:47 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:12 there are no true lispers 00:53:14 Maybe, I don't, probably wouldn't either 00:53:26 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 00:53:26 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 00:53:26 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 00:53:39 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:52 I enjoy graphical interfaces 00:54:05 for my CLI, I use fish 00:54:20 good for somethings, and terminal is good for others 00:54:21 posix is powerful enough for me 00:54:26 yeah 00:55:28 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:55:54 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:02 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:00:22 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:03:23 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:18 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:05:37 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:08:28 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:09:40 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:54 Does someone know of return-subsystems-of-status from lispbuilder-sdl-mixer? 01:11:37 I searched the whole source for "return-subsystems-of-status" and just found one line (when (= 0 (sdl:return-subsystems-of-status SDL:SDL-INIT-AUDIO t)) ??? how can I find out what function this object is mapped to? 01:11:44 Lis; Balooga might, he's over in #lispgames 01:11:54 wow great thanks 01:11:55 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: kpreid_] 01:12:23 tcr [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has joined #lisp 01:14:20 hello. whats the preferred way of getting ecl work under windows 7 (64 bit)? 01:18:04 symbole [~symbole@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:47 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:20:11 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:48 you compile it 01:21:11 do you want to have a true 64bit lisp? 01:22:09 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22:51 Lis: dont care about 64 bit so far (as long as it works under 64 bit windows). "compiling": with what compiler. the stuff on the ecl-webpage seems to be deprecated and the cygwin-compilation fails. 01:22:54 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:22:58 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:23:15 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23:20 -!- oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:23:27 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:23:37 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:23:42 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:00 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:24:01 well If you just want it to work download visual studio express, run the setenv script in the vs dir cd to the ecl source where the windows makefiles are stored and run make. 01:24:01 jan247_ [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 01:24:03 -!- jan247_ [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 01:24:03 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:24:31 oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:24 Lis: Thats what the website sais, but the version of visual studio express has changed, and nmake.exe cannot be run under win64, at least the one linked 01:25:28 what broke the compilation with cygwin?!? for normal you can compile ecl without problem on cygwin 01:25:36 kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 01:25:59 dah thats not possible. nmake can run on win xp on win 7 whereever 01:26:15 just give me the error you get i you run nmake 01:26:59 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:00 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:50 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:54 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 01:28:37 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:28:37 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 01:28:48 Lis: http://paste.debian.net/81779/ <-- error in cygwin, cannot copypaste the error from nmake, but it sais "The version of this file is not compatible with the version of Windows you're running." 01:29:42 seems you messed up your cygwin installation 01:30:03 I dont think so 01:30:06 reinstall cygwin... make shure you do not mix mingw and cygwin path in your windows PATH environment variable 01:30:20 no mingw is installed 01:30:29 cygwin installation is new 01:30:52 (i just installed it for having git) 01:31:42 are you shure you installed all needed packages for development? 01:31:45 kpreid___ [~kpreid@66.109.105.172] has joined #lisp 01:32:26 at least the configure-script didnt tell anything different 01:33:43 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:10 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:27 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:34:27 -!- kpreid___ is now known as kpreid_ 01:34:27 Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:35 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:35:20 syamajal_ [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:29 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:43 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 01:35:47 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:04 whait i have a short look at the build script 01:37:33 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.130.224] has quit [] 01:37:39 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:37:46 Do you go into the msvc dir to build it? No you use the configure script right? 01:37:57 yes 01:38:00 since I am in cygwin 01:38:14 (btw vc++ installed ... gonna try this now) 01:39:07 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:39:37 (well, nmake seems to do something ...) 01:39:54 hm this is a know cygwin problem. Some fixed compiling other libs by disable shared 01:40:31 hm? 01:40:42 you mean I have to recompile other stuff? 01:40:46 found your solution, but you need to modify the compiler options for cygwin -fPIC or -fpic, it's meaningless on windows32. Newer versions 01:40:46 of GCC will complain about it, rather than you run into this problem. 01:41:28 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:42:05 ok, do you have a link to what you found? 01:42:09 No you have to modify the makefile script or better patch regenerate the configure script and remove the -fPIC or -fpic option from the compiler options. 01:42:15 http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin/1999-11/msg00539.html 01:43:17 apparently, vc++ seems to work well ... but I prefer both alternatives so I try it. thank you! *tries* 01:43:34 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:45:04 I told the ecl developer about this incident... He may fix it someday... 01:45:46 Lis: ok thank you. hm. but for now: do you have an idea where -fpic is added? I cant find it in the makefiles. 01:45:55 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:23 phew no Idead. Maybe add it then... I dont know the gcc compiler options very well :D 01:46:24 there is alocal.m4 01:46:29 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:46:29 ok 01:46:30 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 01:46:34 well i just hope that the vc+ 01:46:39 + compiler works 01:47:24 ok, seems to have worked. 01:47:49 nice 01:48:19 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:37 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 01:48:38 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 01:48:38 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:49:13 -fPIC is in configure on line 4378 4508 01:50:13 http://codepad.org/Qj3v7Jru there you go :D 01:51:34 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:52:37 Lis thanks. 01:53:52 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:55:58 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@66.109.105.172] has quit [Quit: 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quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:53:47 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A53D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:28 -!- phear_ [~user@unaffiliated/phear] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:54:45 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 03:54:58 good morning 03:56:33 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:49 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:18 Zhivago, you there? 04:01:01 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:04:03 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:04:19 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:18 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:47 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:11:43 is the actual cffi version aviable on common-lisp.net? 04:12:57 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 04:20:05 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:21 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.6] has joined #lisp 04:21:01 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:23:06 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:23:27 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.12.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:23:38 morning 04:24:49 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:27 -!- Guthur [~michael@86.148.29.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:14 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 04:30:24 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:38 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:33:09 Lis [~Lis@p5B204ECA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:51 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-134.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:40:54 hey 04:40:56 Good morning everyone! 04:41:06 I want to apply a function to every pair in a list 04:41:38 (that is, for '(a b c) I want to (f a b) (f a c) (f b c)) 04:41:47 and collect it with some function 04:42:00 is there any existing higher order function for that, or do I write my own? 04:42:12 (i just designed my own for fun, on paper) 04:42:37 (loop for (a b) on list unless (null b) collect (f a b)) or something like that. 04:43:17 wow 04:43:29 loop can do everything! 04:43:54 OliverUv: Oh, sorry, my thing only does adjacent pairs. I didn't see your (f a c). 04:44:19 ah, ok 04:44:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:35 I am also struggling with what to call my function 04:44:48 I think it'll be "np-complete" 04:45:00 OliverUv: Just quadratic. 04:45:07 what? 04:45:28 OliverUv: alexandia has map-permutations 04:45:30 (loop for rest on list append (loop for b in (cdr rest) collect (f (first rest) b))) 04:45:35 each element has to be checked with each other element? 04:45:47 OliverUv: Yes, that's quadratic. 04:45:54 huh no, yeah you are right, that would make it quadratic 04:46:11 ugh 04:46:30 I have a latency to this server I'm running my irc client on 04:46:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:46:50 it is continuously unsteady between 200 and 4000 ms 04:47:05 (total guesstimate) 04:47:09 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:51:15 hadronzo` [~user@ppp-70-251-117-133.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:17 -!- hadronzoo [~user@209.30.41.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:52:17 how do I run the cffi tests 04:52:27 `(asdf:load-system 'cffi-tests) and then? 04:53:48 (asdf:test-system 'cffi-tests) 05:02:55 but I need to do load-system any way? 05:04:11 you already did, didn't you? 05:05:13 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:26 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:45 yes 05:05:57 good 05:07:55 right now I am confudes why ccl keepts telling Can't open shared library "libtest.dll". I did pushnew to cffi:*foreign-library-directories* 05:08:16 -!- hadronzo` [~user@ppp-70-251-117-133.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09:54 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:29 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:12:18 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:12:20 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c122-106-121-61.rivrw6.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:12:37 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 05:14:49 dlowe [~dlowe@c122-106-121-61.rivrw6.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:18:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112972 05:19:23 Behold! The indentation in this file is a warning, Limp makes you feel crippled sometimes. 05:20:27 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.207] has joined #lisp 05:20:58 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:23:20 everything in this file looks horrible 05:23:46 I agree. 05:25:29 OliverUv: What was wrong with my nested loop above? 05:26:15 Ah, I didn't see it! 05:26:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ofegunsxhpdttixh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:27:07 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:29:40 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-57.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:22 I need to learn loop 05:31:14 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hkfiskqyrnuzjxuz] has joined #lisp 05:32:18 OliverUv: You also need to learn to use English identifiers, to indent your code, and how to organize arguments to IF. 05:32:47 fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 05:33:13 beach: English identifiers are out of the question because I am not coding for myself, but for teh university 05:33:14 -!- fade is now known as Fade 05:33:28 I know how to indent the code, but my editor does not 05:33:41 OliverUv: Use a real editor! 05:34:10 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:34:22 OliverUv: Your university should accept English identifiers. 05:34:24 The if-arg organization is a workaround for the editor, as the if clauses would otherwise look like ... hell 05:34:34 beach: I wish 05:34:39 OliverUv: Use a real editor! 05:34:57 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 05:34:58 I have used emacs before. It hurt too much. 05:35:23 OliverUv: But what you are doing doesn't hurt? Hmm! 05:35:32 not my hands 05:35:40 only my eyes and brain! 05:35:57 they've been through worse 05:36:34 OliverUv: I have used Emacs for 30 years. Never had a problem. You must not have put your control key in the right place, or perhaps you are not using all the functionality you could. 05:36:49 Both! 05:37:30 i guess you're just prejudiced 05:37:31 I would like to learn emacs properly, as it would feel good to be bi-editorial 05:37:34 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:37:39 but at the moment I have a pressing deadline 05:37:43 OliverUv: Also, it's a bit insulting to submit code like that for others to read, as if those others are supposed to translate your identifiers, and indent the code for you before reading it. 05:37:44 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:37:51 and no printer to print cheat sheets on 05:38:06 beach: ah, this one I submitted just so you could see how ugly it was 05:38:24 but yeah, the last few times now I've fixed up my code before I post it 05:38:26 OliverUv: Oh, I wish you had told us that. 05:38:39 Sorry, I should have made it more clear 05:38:54 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:08 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 05:40:03 i don't think anybody here wants to see ugly code just for the sake of it 05:40:57 OliverUv: Why are you using Limp? 05:41:21 because just lisp is not enough! 05:41:22 schmrkc: I wanted to get started with using SBCL quickly, while still avoiding the horrors of using SBCL directly 05:42:00 OliverUv: Limp is dead. for vim you should use slimv 05:42:12 http://i28.tinypic.com/11ttoa1.png <-- here is what I have accomplished with McClim so far, that shows all the days of a year - and represents them differently depending on which functionality the student has implemented sao far 05:42:27 schmrkc: I wish I had known that! 05:43:07 oh nice. I have been needing a mcclim calendar 05:43:24 I had followed this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/94792/using-vim-for-lisp-development 05:43:29 are you synching it with google? 05:43:35 didn't mention slimv 05:44:00 schmrkc: Sorry, no, and it doesn't support leap years (and therefore not weekdays either!) 05:44:15 Oh ok. 05:44:33 it is a simple calendar app with a custom type system and some abstraction layers to teach students about those things 05:45:05 I just stole the emcs leap year code meself. 05:45:07 emacs even 05:45:37 OliverUv: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 05:46:29 OliverUv: unlike limp this has had activity the last 2 years. 05:47:06 -!- ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:47:25 OliverUv: limp is dead because tic is too busy trying to outlift me. And I am sure you understand how much time that must take out of his life. with him not being very strong and all. 05:47:47 *schmrkc* hopes tic has some of that autohighlight thing on his name. 05:48:07 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-119-98.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:48:43 OliverUv: slimv lacks a lot of the niceness from slime. like the find callers etc. 05:49:15 ah, too bad 05:49:20 but it seems at least better than Limp 05:49:23 thanks for the tip 05:49:45 Yes. and it also seems alive. 05:49:47 schmrkc: you also weight lift? 05:50:01 Correct. 05:50:09 nice 05:50:25 I have stopped tranining the big lifts for the while though. 05:50:35 I've been lifting for maybe 4 months straight now 05:50:44 only double kettlebell complexes atm 05:50:51 don't see much growth because I don't eat enough, but I'm not skinny 05:50:56 :) 05:51:09 Man, I can't do squats any more :((((( injuries 05:51:13 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:51:15 or deadlifts 05:51:31 front squats and deadlifts were, hands down, my fave lifts 05:51:54 I was able to zing around vim at one time but then I got into cl/emacs. I'd probably be lost in vim now and I used it for a long time. 05:52:00 I've mostly been lifting for strength . Now I am on a hypertrophy progarm for 1some weeks. 05:52:09 went to an all-free-weights (except for rowing and lat pulldown) gym in Sweden 05:52:25 now that I'm in Taiwan I go to a gym with some machines, so I can do at least some leg exercises 05:52:35 how easier life would be if I saw what I typed 05:53:06 Same here! This ssh session has an insane latency (Taiwan-Norway, 200~7000 ms) 05:53:18 sometimes up to 20s 05:53:32 dureing night time it gets better 05:54:06 OliverUv: My server that runs irssi is doing too much stuff at the moment. I work at a gym that has mostly machines. But it is ok for now. 05:55:23 OliverUv: I really like your calendar app. I mean the looks of it. 05:56:27 thanks! 05:57:03 This is the year-view, as you can see. Days with bookings are different shades of orange depending on how much is booked, darker->busier 05:57:58 By default, the calendar has 4 shades of orange for 1, 2, 3 and 4+ meetings 05:57:59 OliverUv: That is so much better than what I had. 05:58:45 if the student has implemented the functionality for checking the lenght of a booking, it instead has 1440 shades (scale down for how much RGB can represent) - one shade for every minute it is possible to be busy during the day 05:58:48 OliverUv: the leap year stuff is not so complicated. 05:59:00 time to put some numbers on it 05:59:24 Can't implement the leap-year functionality, am not allowed to complicate the student app 05:59:32 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:51 o.O 05:59:54 also, I doubt you'd find any of the coee here interesting to hack on - it is all in Swedish (also required by the university for entry-level course) 06:00:00 that's not complication 06:00:25 Actually I guess I might be allowed to do it, but I don't have the time. I've still got boatloads of work to do, and only 21 days. 06:00:35 the has to be swedish thing is very strange 06:00:39 s/coee/code/ 06:00:58 Basically the course doesn't have, and has never had, English as a prerequisite 06:01:15 so it has to be tailored for Swedes 06:02:30 Once I'm done, though, I should have time enough to go through it and translate it plus adapt it so it doesn't need the old calendar system 06:02:34 -!- segmond [~seg@99.25.83.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:03:03 (which is bloated with home-made type systemand stuff that the students are hacking around with) 06:03:15 No promises. 06:03:59 OliverUv: I am surprised you like front squats though! people tend to not like them. Or any sorts of squats. 06:04:29 I.. don't understand this not english as prerequisite. 06:04:39 everyone writing software in sweden understands basic english. 06:04:53 and all programming languages are english... and well.. the names of the symbols in lisp doesn't really change the function. 06:04:56 but oh well :) 06:04:58 unis can be crazy. 06:05:24 still nice to see lisp and mcclim :) 06:05:25 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05:26 yeah 06:05:56 No McClim in the course until I add it, though, and none of this is supposed to be necessary for the student to see unless they want to investigate it hemselves 06:06:11 Hmm.. 06:06:19 hang on here though. 06:06:33 You are allowed to add mcclim, but not leap years & dates ? ;) 06:06:49 haha, as long as the students don't need to see it I can add it 06:07:00 ok ok. 06:07:03 but it should be open for their investigation aswell, which is why swedish 06:07:15 i'm taking it all in stride :p 06:07:17 right. 06:07:27 I guess you have to adapt to the language requirement. 06:07:28 Also yeah! Front squats are the hardest exercise I've done, it requires so much focus 06:07:46 they get worse when you do them with double kettlebells instead of a bar (: 06:07:54 if lower back starts sagging even a little bit, or you start pulling your arms up too high, you're going to feel it 06:08:01 i love it 06:08:21 all that stuff is wonderful for me, I can't stand the tediousness of sitting in a machine and lifting 06:08:38 (: 06:08:38 that sounds hardcore :D 06:08:40 weight-lifting off-topic, i've never seen it here before 06:08:53 mannnnn, I want my muscle inflammations to go away 06:08:56 New breed of lispers, stassats :) 06:09:08 had them since I did HIIT on bike 6 days a week like three christmases ago 06:09:29 whenever I think they're gone, they eventually re=appear 06:09:50 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 06:10:10 was so dissapointed last time, had been off the leg exercises for like 1.5 years 06:10:41 OliverUv: Dan John has a very nice HIIT idea. He calls it an adaptation of the tabata protocol, but it is not, but anyway. It is all front squats. You should try it when you get well. You need a load that you can squat 10-15 reps in 20 seconds. and then you.. do that for 20 seconds as fast as you can. then rest 10 seconds. and repeat for 8 sets. 06:10:42 taken pills that had the worst fucking side-ffects, thought I was going insane 06:11:09 but seriously, will you stop this off-topic? 06:11:16 stassats: Ya well ok. 06:11:16 stassats: ok 06:11:34 there are private messages and all 06:11:42 (: 06:11:50 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 06:12:13 This is the first channel I am on where people care about topic, so it is easy to forget. Feel free to remind me if I forget again. 06:12:21 I just get carried away in conversations 06:12:29 -!- Lis [~Lis@p5B204ECA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 06:12:32 OliverUv: sometimes it does, sometimes it does not :) It depends on *how* OT it is. 06:12:50 talking about off-topic is off-topic! 06:12:55 haha! 06:13:03 We are at a stalemate! 06:13:20 OliverUv: But I understand that if you are not me then you would be not so happy about seeing 15 screenfulls of me blabbering on about deadlift variations :) 06:13:50 yeah 06:14:00 http://i.imgur.com/ze7NH.jpg 06:14:00 "What happened to my #lisp" 06:14:05 oops. 06:14:23 andreer: made me lol though 06:17:03 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17:43 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:18:12 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 06:18:33 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-177.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:21:06 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-222-164.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:24:15 good morning 06:24:36 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:25:28 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has left #lisp 06:27:04 Ralith_ [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 06:27:19 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 06:30:03 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-40-253-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:34 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 06:30:36 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has quit [Client Quit] 06:30:57 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 06:31:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 06:31:08 Newbie question - how do I know whether a specific value is a list or an atom? I'm trying to traverse a tree recursively. 06:31:44 <_3b> clhs listp 06:31:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 06:31:48 <_3b> clhs atom 06:31:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm 06:31:53 <_3b> clhs typecase 06:31:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tpcase.htm 06:32:01 but what is NIL? 06:32:34 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@wbs-41-208-221-101.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:32:42 _3b, thanks. 06:32:49 Exactly what I was looking for. 06:32:55 <_3b> true, for recursive tree traversal, you probably want to look for CONS rather than LIST 06:33:00 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:42:10 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 06:43:46 sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:49 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has 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[Quit: Leaving.] 10:01:28 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:01:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:04:22 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:06:29 r0man [~r0man@212.45.111.145] has joined #lisp 10:06:58 -!- r0man [~r0man@212.45.111.145] has left #lisp 10:07:43 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:09:59 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:27 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest6341 10:10:30 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-210-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 10:10:46 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:13:13 Might someone know why this happens? http://codepad.org/XJguYK9n 10:13:19 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-177.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:15:11 <_3b> the .dll exists there and is 64bit? 10:15:15 yes 10:15:38 I copy pasted the paths, rechecked them and used them for SET PATH=... and then it works 10:16:12 does the dll depend on a second dll in those directories? 10:16:49 it's the cffi testsystem, wich has no dependencys 10:17:44 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:17:45 but why does it work if I add the paths to PATH ?!? Do I need to make the (pushnew somewhere different= 10:17:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:19:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:19:58 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:20:00 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:20:23 anyone? 10:21:02 if there is really no dll being depended on in that path, then I think openmcl-devel and/or cffi-devel will be a good place to ask for help. 10:21:42 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:22:15 Personally I have no clue about dll loading on windows in the first place, but also put all my dlls into PATH anyway. But the clozure guys will know how it is meant to work. 10:24:09 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:24:14 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:24:31 I send them a email. 10:24:53 sent 10:28:10 <_3b> ah, looks like cffi tests override *foreign-library-directories* 10:28:24 ok 10:28:42 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:54 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 10:29:01 <_3b> load-test-libraries in bindings.lisp tries to bind it to the dir the code was loaded from 10:29:34 <_3b> so you probably either need to move the .dll to the test/ dir, or fix that 10:30:30 the debug/ looks like a vc output directory 10:32:04 if I have (defun plane/ (&rest args) ...) and I call: (plane/ (+ 2 2)), how can I access the pre-evaluated lambda list from within plane/. I see (plane/ (+ 2 2)) in the backtrace, so I'm assuming it's in there somewhere. I tried (function-lambda-expression #'plane/) but I get back nil. 10:33:00 bytecolor: you sound confused 10:33:19 stassats: I get that way a lot 10:33:23 <_3b> 'lambda list' refers to the names of args etc when you defined the function.. '&rest args' in this case 10:34:10 ah, hrm so how is that backtrace displaying the args I actually passed to plane/ ? 10:34:27 <_3b> debugger magic probably 10:34:56 <_3b> it could be looking at the source for example 10:35:36 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.86.10] has joined #lisp 10:35:37 i believe it's not magic and bytecolor is just misinterpreting what he sees in the debugger 10:35:49 <_3b> that is possible too 10:36:17 something like (eval (plane/ (+ 2 2))) 10:36:53 <_3b> yeah, that would make sense as well 10:38:47 <_3b> possibly you want a macro if you need access to the unevaluated arguments, hard to say without knowing what you are trying to do though, still might not help 10:42:16 plane/ takes a lot of different forms like: (plane/ 0 0 1 4), (plane/ p1 :perpto v) and I'm parsing the argument list. So I want the original args for better error reporting. If I just use (error "fuuu ~S" args), it's not much help. 10:43:27 nod, a macro would work 10:44:36 *_3b* would vote for a better api over a macro 10:45:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:45:43 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:02 davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has joined #lisp 10:46:12 <_3b> not sure unevaluated args would be any more generally helpful anyway 10:46:43 <_3b> at best it might help find it in the source, but that is what the debugger is for 10:46:55 nod 10:51:27 -!- sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 10:52:35 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:08 sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:57 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@vc-41-17-135-14.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:57:15 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.86.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:57:55 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:03 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:00:32 ok I added the all the stuff to the path variable. Now it loads and I get http://codepad.org/zOXsC10Z 11:00:39 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:02:06 <_3b> check the .dll and see what the symbol names look like, might need to change options when building it to get it to export the names the way the lisp is looking for them 11:02:20 <_3b> (with or without _ at beginning, stuff at end, etc) 11:03:00 <_3b> or maybe add a definition for DLLEXPORT for ms compilers if it needs one 11:04:17 dllexport is defined with this build 11:04:57 <_3b> to __declspec(dllexport)? is that valid for ms compilers? 11:05:09 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05:36 <_3b> (or if it is defined to something else outside the .c files, possibly the .c file shouldn't be overriding it) 11:07:10 woooohow 11:07:14 i suck hard 11:07:17 i fogotten a define 11:11:37 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:11:39 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:12:30 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 11:12:42 <_3b> oops, guess i can't update cl-opengl bindings for gl4.1 stuff, the don't seem to have the .spec files up yet :/ 11:14:37 now I get what I wanted. A ccl kernel exception http://codepad.org/ipHkwcOp 11:15:04 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:21:15 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:21:17 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hkfiskqyrnuzjxuz] has left #lisp 11:24:05 <_3b> yeah, that looks pretty broken :p 11:25:57 do I need to configure cffi for 64bit dlls? 11:26:15 *_3b* wouldn't have thought so 11:27:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 11:28:13 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DC48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:42 <_3b> can you build the test .dll with gcc and see if they behave differently? 11:35:40 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:03 hm 11:36:28 I just found one gcc 64bit port for windows. I'll try it 11:37:10 besides... the powershell is that powerfull It can't even log a session to file. 11:37:12 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:37:15 fgtech^ [~federico@host146-205-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:37:44 the best one explained cmd /c powershell.exe > log.txt might work :D 11:37:46 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:38:12 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:15 powershell is the new powerfull shell on windows... for those who do not know 11:38:25 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:35 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-162-208-163.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:20 <_3b> Lis: you might also try removing the #define STDCALL __stdcall from the .c files, and see if that changes anything 11:42:41 <_3b> or rather removing the __stdcall part 11:44:29 nope 11:44:57 I think the pointer size is buggy becouse lists with 2 integers return first the wrong value and second the right value 11:45:14 did changed it nothing happened 11:45:53 <_3b> did you restart the lisp/unload/reload the .dll? 11:46:01 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:46:27 i just close ccl, yes 11:46:36 with the red windows cross :D 11:49:03 this is what fascinates me Expected values: " !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~" 11:49:04 190 Actual values: "" 190. 11:49:20 oh sorry... I thought removed the linebreak... 11:49:50 The folks over at Franz seem to be nice people. At least one I emailed. :) 11:49:53 Thought I might say that. 11:52:52 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:40 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:56:04 Hi, I need treat slot setting and initialization by initforms or initargs differently, 11:56:12 but methods on shared-initialize cannot be defined according to MOP 11:56:28 any idea? 11:56:43 davazp: have you tried adding a method on initialize-instance? 11:57:18 let me to explain my situation better 11:57:28 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:57:58 I have a class with a table of property/value (properties can be duplicated) 11:58:28 davazp: define on initialize-instance and reinitialize-instance 11:58:43 I have build a CLOS layer upon this class, to treat properties as slots 11:58:45 does someone here use a 64bit lisp? 11:59:05 Lis: on linux 11:59:17 however some properties have default values (as initforms) which shouldn't be added to the table 11:59:18 what does (machine-type) return? 11:59:52 Lis: fyi, on mac with sbcl it returns "X86-64" 11:59:55 so, I define slot-value-using-class to add properties to the table, but when it is been initialized by initform 11:59:57 DAH 12:00:02 "X86-64" on mine (sbcl on linux) 12:00:04 <_3b> "x86_64", "X86-64", "64-bit x86-64" 12:00:09 i solved it 12:00:17 it simply is not recognizes as 64bit 12:00:28 mine returns x64 wich is not in the cffi sources as machine type 12:00:29 stassats, hargettp: MOP says portable programs shouldn't call shared-initialize directly, I think 12:00:44 but how to add that .... I never coded lisp :) 12:00:53 <_3b> Lis: where does it check? 12:01:03 davazp: that's why you would define your methods on re/initialize-instance 12:01:13 _3b C:\Users\Lis\Documents\work\cffi\src\features.lisp 12:01:36 line 41 12:02:00 stassats: but, I cannot define primary methods on re/initialize-instance, then, as I can know if 12:02:20 slot-value-using-class was called by 'initform-ing'? 12:02:24 <_3b> Lis: are you sure that path is right? i don't see that 12:02:33 davazp: so, define non-primary methods 12:02:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@145.52.240.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:02:41 davazp: are you trying to prevent initialization of your slots / properties? 12:02:50 yes I copy pasted _3b 12:03:22 scroll a little to the bottom... there are all architectures starting at 66 12:04:13 hargettp: more or less, I want to set a special variable to T, to slot-value-using-class knows if it is initializing the slot 12:04:49 davazp: but if you are trying to prevent initialization to default values--why not drop your :initform in the slot definition? 12:05:05 <_3b> Lis: this file? http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cffi-cffi;a=headblob;f=/src/features.lisp 12:05:14 exactly 12:05:23 but I just read it deprecated 12:05:55 anyway I searched the whole your for x64 and found nothing. 12:06:00 <_3b> that list is things it sets up on its own, where di you see (machine-type)? 12:06:04 hargettp: I want :initform option, but they were treated differently 12:06:12 your extending initialize/reinitialize-instance methods can bind your special variable 12:06:19 davazp: different in what way? 12:06:47 (defmethod initialize-instance :around ((o your-instance-of-your-metaclass) &key) (let ((*initializing* t)) (call-next-method))) 12:07:14 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:07:37 yeah, but I want to do it some slots.. 12:07:51 oh, great, I will define a new slot type to this 12:07:51 -!- fgtech^ [~federico@host146-205-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:07:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:08:11 thanks Xof, hargettp, stassats 12:08:16 davazp: :) 12:08:17 _3b machine-type is nowhere but I just read that on a post somewhere on the net... so I thought cffi has to do some platform checks 12:08:25 :-) 12:08:39 <_3b> Lis: it does, but it uses #+ 12:09:06 <_3b> Lis: does this return 1? #+64-bit-target 1 12:09:23 yes 12:09:25 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:09:49 <_3b> Lis how about #+x86-64 1 ? 12:09:57 yaya i got you 12:10:01 does return 1 12:10:10 <_3b> ok, seems like that should be OK then 12:10:26 would had been to easy.... 12:11:23 <_3b> that string test fails on ccl 1.4.something on 64bit linux, so wouldn't worry as much about that one 12:12:03 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 12:12:34 I don't understand WHY the second value of every list is shown correcly. btw. I could think of 10 reasons why this happens 12:13:22 <_3b> i think the next thing i would do is add some printfs to some of the functions that fail, and see what the args they see look like 12:14:24 I suppose the order of slot initializing is undefined, right? 12:14:44 I would need more specific slots to be initialized later 12:15:37 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:16:17 I also do not understand where the expected and actual values are print out... if I search the source for "Expected value" nothing is found?!? 12:16:29 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:16:33 <_3b> that is part of the deftest macro 12:16:43 ah 12:17:17 *stassats* imagines using (reverse "eulav detcepxE"), just to fool grep 12:17:48 i expect registering on the cffi mailing list... 12:19:55 -!- Guest6341 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:20:14 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c122-106-121-61.rivrw6.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 12:20:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:22:33 and i put that on the clozurecl mailing list 12:22:46 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 12:22:55 Would anyone here happen to have the color .vlod file for Genera-8-5? 12:22:58 now I need some more coffee 12:23:34 color? 12:24:32 stassats: yes 12:24:58 yes what? 12:26:52 stassats: It's a different world file that has color stuff loaded. I just saw it in the built in docs of opengenera. 12:28:24 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:28:43 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:29:29 <_3b> Lis: what does the code in http://paste.lisp.org/+2F6D return? 12:29:51 <_3b> Lis: (in a fresh CCL, don't need to load cffi or anything) 12:30:01 it returns f 12:31:51 <_3b> how about the annotation? 12:32:15 <_3b> oops, reload... wasn't actually annotated yet :) 12:33:09 annotation? 12:33:14 i'm confused 12:33:22 <_3b> reload that page and scroll down a bit\ 12:33:40 http://paste.lisp.org/+2F6D/1 12:34:10 stassats: when is the last time you wrote 1000 lines of lisp in one sitting 12:34:16 now it returns (1, "f") 12:34:51 Quadrescence: i never do such stupid things 12:34:54 <_3b> hmm, wonder if that is windows sprintf being broken rather than the problem we are actually looking for :p 12:35:13 stassats: Do you tell the people under you to code 1000 lines? :D 12:35:22 <_3b> Lis: try changing the "%.2f" to "%f" 12:35:51 Quadrescence: i don't understand what this interrogation is about 12:35:56 still the same _3b 12:36:12 stassats: Sorry, just poking fun and whatever. 12:37:14 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:07 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:41:01 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:41:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:42:14 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:56 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:37 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:43:51 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:44:19 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-177.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:44:41 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:46:19 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:38 i recompiled with mingw 64bit and got the same error. 12:47:42 <_3b> Lis: how about http://paste.lisp.org/+2F6D/2 ? 12:48:09 returns (0 1) 12:49:41 baha... our windows server crashed 12:49:50 and I'm not on the windows network 12:49:56 so my internet and stuff keeps working 12:50:00 <_3b> http://paste.lisp.org/+2F6D/3 ? 12:50:02 our admin is awkward 12:50:03 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.17] has joined #lisp 12:50:19 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.4.146] has joined #lisp 12:50:38 mh 12:51:39 fgtech^ [~federico@host146-205-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:52:04 can visit that site right now couse i forgot that it also runs dns.... 12:53:22 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:54:48 <_3b> and naturally it is an vhost or whatever, so you can't just put the IP in the url :/ 12:55:12 that would work... 12:55:39 i should someday get my apache ssh tunnel to work 12:56:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:56:57 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:05 rvirding [~rvirding@gamestudio.smart-lab.se] has joined #lisp 12:58:02 p8m [~dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:35 hmm, SBCL 1.0.41 isn't very exciting, i hope .42 will see more cool changes 12:59:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:59:59 -!- fgtech^ [~federico@host146-205-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:12 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:15 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:40 your last code returned (4294967296 1) 13:02:42 beaumonta [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 13:02:51 <_3b> hmm 13:03:07 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 13:03:28 <_3b> (cffi:foreign-type-size :long) ? 13:04:48 returns 4?? 13:06:34 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 13:09:24 on windows it should be 8 13:09:57 yay sourceforge web interface of doom 13:10:32 updated web interface of doom 13:10:41 now with 66% fewer navigation bars 13:10:53 and doubled loading time 13:11:11 is that the beta? or the current abomination with the worst of all possible web interface worlds 13:11:19 <_3b> Lis: (cffi::type-keyword (cffi::parse-type :long)) ? 13:11:24 something that looks like it's about to update the document in place, but then reloads the whole page anyway 13:11:37 Lis: Windows is funky in 64-bit--check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit 13:12:02 _3b that returns :long 13:12:04 <_3b> Lis: and (ccl::foreign-type-bits (ccl::parse-foreign-type :long)) ? 13:12:08 Lis: look for LLP64, the memory model Windows x86-64 uses 13:12:12 Lis: *data model 13:12:45 Lis: I think returning 4 is correct 13:13:00 ya 13:13:20 I read a post who told it's 64 bit... no who to trust more :D 13:13:21 also, stassats, in 1.0.41 you get ~15% faster fasl-loading time for clos-heavy code! 13:13:24 that is exciting!! 13:13:49 indeed 13:14:28 but there are more speedups in that direction coming for 1.0.42? 13:14:44 Lis: I hear ya' :) I ported a bunch of code from 32-bit -> 64-bit on Windows a few years ago--it got weird :) 13:14:56 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 stassats: yes, I have another speedup of about ~10% or so 13:15:42 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:15:58 god if I just knew lisp a little better 13:16:24 if you keep adding speed ups like that, you will end up at 0s run times 13:16:25 Lis: that's amendable 13:16:34 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-67.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17:00 <_3b> Lis: did the last form return 32 or 64? 13:17:06 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.41, ABCL 0.21.0, GNU CLISP 2.49 13:17:10 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:14 Joreji [~thomas@90-208.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:17:18 _3b it returner :long 13:17:21 returned 13:17:24 <_3b> Lis: the one after that 13:17:49 <_3b> Lis: (ccl::foreign-type-bits (ccl::parse-foreign-type :long)) 13:18:03 it returned 32 13:19:42 <_3b> Lis: http://paste.lisp.org/+2F6D/4 <- try that 13:19:43 is it possible to print out a whole bitmap a little before the pointer returned by cffi and after it? 13:20:23 becouse If we read one allocated var and read over the bound we will throw an error... 13:20:27 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 13:20:28 like pointer arithmetics in c 13:22:09 oh, damnit asdf2 new random file location behaviour 13:22:13 I do not have time for this 13:22:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-208.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:23:45 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:24:13 krystof: did you look at asdf:apply-output-transformations? Help's you find the location of files/directories using the new model...instead of based off of *load-truename* 13:24:28 krystof: just know that was the missing link I needed...hope it helps...http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Controlling-where-ASDF-saves-compiled-files.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-saves-compiled-files 13:24:35 haha the clozurecl people are funny... one told me the clozurecl problem would not apply for my error I should talk to the cffi people 13:24:44 hargettp: no, you're missing something: I don't have time for this 13:24:53 krystof: lol indeed 13:25:23 <_3b> Lis: this part at least seems to be a cffi problem 13:25:38 Krystof: I do. what's the problem ? 13:25:43 asdf-install isn't working with ASDF2, or is it? 13:25:45 mail coming to sbcl-devel 13:26:11 stassats: eh, working for me on sbcl 1.0.40...just had to get used to new .fasl location for some of my cleanup code 13:26:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:11 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:00 hanneso: i've seen reports about some missing functions, but i'm not using asdf-install myself 13:28:14 i see now, it's only should fail when verifying gpg signatures 13:29:41 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:30:13 funcal.lisp ;; The CHAR argument must be passed as :INT because chars are promoted 13:30:13 ;; to ints when passed as variable arguments 13:30:17 antifuchs: are you still running boinkmarks? 13:30:56 but then the numeric tests would work well 13:30:57 Krystof: I should be, yeah (: 13:31:06 let me check the last results 13:31:38 is 1.0.40.7 recent? 13:31:43 (I hope so (-:) 13:33:39 yes 13:34:09 it would make me mildly less grumpy to see some graphs of 1.0.40.x, but sbcl.boinkor.net/bench/ says no 13:36:53 hm all foreign-funcalls do work 13:37:19 <_3b> Lis: did you see my last annotation? 13:38:59 -!- phear is now known as phear` 13:39:05 -!- phear` is now known as phear 13:39:09 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:40:28 nope, but now i did... why you told but it tells > Error: Reader error on #, near position 5945, within "-features:windows) (":> Reference to unknown package "CFFI-FEATURES". 13:40:54 -why you told 13:41:11 i need more coffee 13:41:29 <_3b> hmm, wonder if it hasn't been loaded yet at that point 13:41:42 <_3b> does #+windows 1 return 1? 13:41:51 i can manually load it 13:42:37 <_3b> if so, just replace all the cffi-features:windows with windows 13:43:36 Krystof: oh. 13:43:44 Krystof: it's http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks nowadays 13:43:52 sorry, I really really should get that redirect going 13:44:01 <_3b> Lis: actually, replace cffi-features:windows with windows either way, trivial-features should be setting that up 13:44:07 oh, wait 13:44:14 there's no numbers for 1.0.40 13:44:22 so there is no page for that commit 13:44:39 dude your awesome 13:44:47 no crash 13:44:54 20 of 235 test failed 13:45:07 Krystof: editing the URL and pressing reload works, though (-: 13:45:09 try http://sbcl.boinkor.net/boinkmarks/index#;SBCL,(:ARCH :EMULATED-X86 :FEATURES NIL),baker/1.0.40 13:45:24 (copy&pasting or inserting appropriate %20s) 13:47:25 still wrong values for the char functions 13:47:32 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-103-9.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:35 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-103-9.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:06 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.86.10] has joined #lisp 13:56:38 what's the cause of the big perf loss in ctak/stak/puzzle/frpint*/... in 1.0.34? 13:57:42 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212.200.217.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:57:59 -!- davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:00 jajcloz [~jaj@108.7.68.199] has joined #lisp 13:58:22 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f967.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 13:58:41 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f967.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:53 *_3b* guesses that was the switch to threaded by default 13:59:06 <_3b> (since threaded buld #s were about the same, and stop at that point) 13:59:38 <_3b> well, for some of them,,, i guess not fprint 14:01:02 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:01:51 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02:47 zophy[obsd] [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:42 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:05:46 hi, i need a help with weblocks and the basic widgets, the widget counter example, works inside a navigation but not in a compositing widget, where is my mistake? thanks http://paste.lisp.org/display/112989 14:06:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-37-16.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:09:10 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:27 <_3b> yeah, does seem to have been switching to threads by default, don't know why fprint jumped so much though 14:10:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cuwpikmxgtwnepbw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:28 <_3b> doesn't seem to have threaded build stats between .32 and .34 so can't see what happened there 14:13:06 balooga1 [~00u4440@adsl-99-162-208-163.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:56 thanks Xof! 14:14:47 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-134.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:15:54 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-162-208-163.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:58 urandom_ [~user@p548A459A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:26 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-134.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:21:00 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.99] has joined #lisp 14:21:01 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:22:15 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.240.46.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:47 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8910 14:23:52 milanj [~milanj_@109.92.118.200] has joined #lisp 14:24:04 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.118.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:13 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:50 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:54 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:35 would it be accurate to say that the concept of lists and cons/car/cdr are roughly equivalent to a linked list, where car is the value and cdr is a pointer to the next element in the list or nil if there is no more? 14:32:53 (actually car would be a pointer to the value represented by that node) 14:33:19 *_3b* would say that is phrased poorly, but possibly correct 14:33:21 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:45 <_3b> lisp lists are linked lists (not just roughly) 14:33:47 steven_t: lists are exactly that, linked lists 14:33:56 neato! 14:34:14 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 14:34:22 <_3b> (but not that CONSes are not inherently lists, you can build trees out of them, or use them as individual pairs, etc) 14:34:23 and list/cons distinction is only in NIL 14:34:25 im on the Lists chapter in paul grahams ANSI Common Lisp 14:34:42 man this stuff is fasinating! 14:34:45 <3 14:35:21 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 14:35:38 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:57 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:37:07 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:07 tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.50] has joined #lisp 14:43:37 steven_t: actually, depending on the implementation, some values may be stored directly in the car (or the cdr). For example, fixnums or characters are not bigger than a pointer, therefore instead of allocating them on the heap and having pointers to them, they're usused stored in place of the pointer. 14:43:38 Demosthenes [~demo@189.sub-75-194-214.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:01 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-134.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:19 (On the other hand, for characters, they may be bigger, and that's why (let ((x #\x)) (eq x x)) may return nil !) 14:46:07 -!- Tanami [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:47:34 Tanami [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 14:49:32 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.86.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:52:08 Joreji [~thomas@82-111.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:52:22 antifuchs: that gives me a shiny page with lots of blank graphs :-/ 14:53:00 Xof: hmm, strange. which browser are you using? 14:53:02 it works for me 14:53:06 the graphs aren't very interesting 14:53:08 but they're there 14:53:16 aha, firefox gives me pictures 14:53:23 chromium/epiphany do not 14:53:38 funny, I'm trying in chrome (: 14:53:48 maybe it takes a little longer to render or something 14:53:55 not very interesting? Look at clos/instantiate 14:54:01 yeah, or DDERIVE 14:54:06 I didn't scroll down, admittedly 14:54:25 well, clos/instantiate. that's pretty cool 14:54:39 that's, uh, really cool (: 14:55:30 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@189.sub-75-194-214.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:56:55 you're welcome :-) 14:57:26 <_3b> i like how 'comment changes' seems to have had a big effect on tak :p 14:58:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 pjb: awesome to know, thanks 15:02:14 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:02:56 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:02:56 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WAAAAAAAAGH!!] 15:06:57 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 I am drawing blanks on this and need some hints 15:07:10 "The value #\VULGAR_FRACTION_ONE_HALF is not of type BASE-CHAR." 15:07:47 I have this utf-8 stream that I need to process with cl-ppcre and xml-emitter; but xml-emitter is using REPLACE on the input, and I get that error 15:07:52 -!- Guest8910 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:08:24 is there a decent way, semi-non-ugly way of escaping non-ascii characters in utf-8 input? 15:08:41 <_3b> 'escaping'? 15:08:45 (describe (type-of #\VULGAR_FRACTION_ONE_HALF) ) 15:09:17 *_3b* would just avoid using base-chars 15:09:36 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 tcr1 [~tcr@203.82.80.8] has joined #lisp 15:10:00 <_3b> (or base-string, or whatever it is) 15:11:13 -!- inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has left #lisp 15:11:13 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@adsl-99-162-208-163.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:12:18 hargettp: EXTENDED-CHAR: names a primitive type-specifier: 15:13:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:15 I just wanna render them in a form other than #xABABA 15:13:24 fusss: yes...and #\ VULGAR_FRACTION_ONE_HALF is not a BASE-CHAR, so why are you surprised by your error message? :) 15:13:56 I think the bigger issue is why XML-EMITTER treats input as ASCII 15:14:04 fusss: good pt :) 15:14:25 <_3b> probably written on a lisp with bigger base-char (or just poorly optimized) 15:19:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:23:21 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-177.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:24:43 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A459A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:47 fallacious_n [~user@78.35.6.130] has joined #lisp 15:25:50 -!- fallacious_n [~user@78.35.6.130] has left #lisp 15:25:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:27 -!- codewad [~codewad@c-24-17-171-213.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:29:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:33:00 -!- Hraban [~Hraban@94-226-250-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:23 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 15:36:05 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-119-98.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:16 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:10 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-23-82-248-107-95.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:41:36 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:20 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 15:45:52 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:59 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:08 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:50:16 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:18 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-115-113.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:29 Can I treat string-input-streams as file-streams when interfacing with a cffi wrapper library? 15:54:48 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 15:55:27 no 15:55:45 meaning "not directly" 15:56:07 Specifically magicffi library. Python-magic has a handy magic.buffer() method. Maybe I should try to define that for magicffi? 15:57:41 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:37 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:18 There seems to exist magic_buffer() function in libmagic. 16:02:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:04:22 moah [~gnu@178.1.125.247] has joined #lisp 16:07:17 What's the indirect way? Making a temporary file? 16:07:34 whatever suits your imagination 16:08:37 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:50 Hello all. 16:09:08 nyef: heya! 16:09:51 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:10:37 *stassats* imagines pressing M-. on (function-name a b c) and if it's not found adding a (defun function-name (a b c) ) 16:10:47 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:10:50 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 16:18:54 easier done than said 16:20:56 hey nyef 16:21:14 klm1 [~user@p57A7B744.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:21 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:22:00 and it looks useful, though probably inserting at the end is not always the best place 16:22:42 Doesn't sound useful to me at all 16:23:14 why defun and not defmethod (or deftransform or defmacro? :-) 16:23:21 open a slime-scratch buffer with the definition 16:23:37 i type a call before definition and i was tired of copying the name and writing a defun 16:23:41 or make indirect buffers in specified places like org-capture does (: 16:23:50 Xof: can't win them all 16:23:51 M-. on that thingie not working most often means that the relevant code is not yet in the image 16:24:08 tcr1: well, not M-., i said M-. just as example 16:24:27 that sounds almost like what redshank set out to do, doesn't it? 16:24:30 It's more a variant of C-c C-y? 16:25:35 fundamental [~fundament@cvar.townhouse.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 16:26:06 Personally I'm working zig-zag not in any way top-to-bottom :-) 16:28:43 i do both ways, and i'm not really planning to committing this hack, because it's indeed incomplete and i don't see a way to make it complete in a reasonable way 16:28:49 actually it's top-to-bottom but depth-first 16:29:11 maybe it's really more fit for redshank, where it can ask what kind of definition you want, etc. 16:31:50 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 16:32:23 Xof: let's say you have foo call bar, both are declared inline, then notinline (to make the inlining decision up to the user); now if I just declare foo inline, the call to bar will not be inlined. Additionally inlining bar will not work because that call is not lexical apparant. Could it be that declaring bar first maybe-inline, then notinline would do the right thing? 16:32:27 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:33:22 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:10 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34:43 -!- zophy[obsd] [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:35:28 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:59 The first "declare inline" should actually have been "declaimed inline"; the latter means a literal (declare (inline foo)) on the call site of foo 16:38:42 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:39:25 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2-dev] 16:39:38 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:42:55 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-134.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:42:59 Good evening everyone! 16:43:32 Hello beach. 16:44:18 Demosthenes [~demo@m332436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:21 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:09 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:39 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@203.82.80.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:28 bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:53:25 -!- bozhidar` is now known as bozhidar 16:54:35 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 16:58:53 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 good evening 17:01:37 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:38 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:04 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:05 -!- sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 17:05:29 Fare: Unchanged from Tuesday morning: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/handling-unix-signals-from-sbcl.txt 17:06:52 nyef, thanks 17:08:38 -!- lusory [~bart@bb119-74-154-178.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:14:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:31 Axioplas1_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 17:16:38 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:17:55 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:18 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 17:26:04 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:27:44 -!- sepisultrum [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:30:01 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:31:23 timor [~timor@port-92-195-112-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:28 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:40 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:51 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:26 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.161] has joined #lisp 17:40:16 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:11 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:43:31 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:46:27 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:13 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 17:48:15 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.161] has joined #lisp 17:58:07 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-112-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:34 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m332436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:27 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:00:07 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:28 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-111.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:03:53 Hmmm... I guess I need to convert the values back and forth between lisp: 18:03:54 23 > (magic-buffer cookie arr) 18:03:54 > Error: value # is not of the expected type CCL:MACPTR. 18:04:21 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:40 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 18:05:09 It's kind of amazing, I would never even think about trying to add methods to Python extension libraries (because I do not know enough C), but this seems to almost work! 18:07:26 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:07:44 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:11:12 mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:26 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:51 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:14:54 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 18:15:17 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:44 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:32 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:54 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-167.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:18:40 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:08 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:12 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 18:19:31 sabalaba [~sabalaba@61.48.70.8] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:24 guyal [~guyal@adsl-68-123-188-249.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:54 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:26:01 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 18:27:18 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-440.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:56 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:28:59 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:08 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@61.48.70.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:30 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:48 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:01 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 18:31:02 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:42 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:57 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:24 How do I define a pointer to a struct with cffi? 18:33:55 -!- rvirding [~rvirding@gamestudio.smart-lab.se] has left #lisp 18:35:11 http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcstruct.html 18:35:14 maybe 18:35:17 i dont know 18:35:50 <_3b> in cffi a pointer to anything is just :pointer, or you can use (:pointer ) to tell readers it is a pointer to a 18:35:59 -!- mhd [mhd@clozure-D1451B0E.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:36:08 <_3b> (as far as i know, cffi itself just ignores the part currently) 18:36:11 -!- mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:11 mhd_ [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 -!- mhd_ [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:43 _3b: I used that, but it didn't seem to work. But I found foreign-slot-pointer function, which returns a ccl:macptr 18:38:24 I already maaged to crash ccl with (ccl:%int-to-ptr 0) 18:41:29 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:38 I can't build SBCL on MacOS X 18:44:17 ost: Oh? 18:44:36 ost: did you make sure you have the latest source? .9 should build, I think. 18:44:47 (I can't build SBCL on MacOS X either, but in my case it's because I don't -have- MacOS X.) 18:45:28 I get the same error with readdir as was supposedly solved after 1.0.39 18:45:55 btw, 1.0.39 works for me, but not .40 nor .41 18:47:31 -!- guyal [~guyal@adsl-68-123-188-249.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 18:49:03 ost: You're not on PPC, are you? 18:49:21 I'm on Intel 18:49:22 *nyef* will be breaking non-linux ppc builds soon. 18:50:50 ost: with readdir or with the readdir test? do you have a non latin-1 character in a filename on your root directory? 18:51:29 (and there was a different breakage that Xof recently fixed -- getprotobyname_r) 18:51:35 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 18:51:39 I get exactly the same error as in https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/592897 18:51:44 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 18:51:56 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.253.122] has joined #lisp 18:52:06 except for encoding is UTF-8, not latin-1 18:52:48 slyrus: Perhaps "unbroke" is a better term than "fixed"? 18:54:02 ost: right, but are the names basically correctly decoded but with a decoding error or are they as hosed in that lp bug? and what version of macos? 18:54:13 did you try setting the encoding around the readdir test? 18:55:39 I stepped the test, encoding is not an issue; direntry names are garbled 18:55:52 I have 10.6.4 18:56:08 32-bit or 64-bit? 18:56:13 64 18:56:22 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:56:24 can you paste the output of those two test cases from that bug? 18:56:31 -!- benny [~user@i577A3208.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:57:24 not right now 18:57:45 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@108.7.68.199] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 18:57:52 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.253.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:57:55 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 18:57:55 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 18:59:06 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:23 good, because I can't track down the problem now either 19:01:51 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving this cruel UTF-8 world] 19:02:06 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:40 milanj [~milanj_@109.92.110.119] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:03:04 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:27 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:36 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:41 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:50 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:23 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:26 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:30 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:34 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:09 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 19:16:30 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:17:03 benny [~user@i577A3953.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:51 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-cohchifdqsayscmi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:56 mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 Edward [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-32.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:28:40 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:28:58 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:29:26 mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:42 electronvolt [~Jesus@c-67-172-214-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:39 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 19:32:47 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:49 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:05 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:33:09 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:34:28 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:39 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:49 x2Sx_ [~x2sx@59.41.94-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:10 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:35 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:20 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 19:44:39 oh good, I was wrong 19:46:14 -!- electronvolt [~Jesus@c-67-172-214-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:46 Building an old version by accident? 19:48:14 I stepped wrong code =) 19:48:39 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:48:57 actually it was an encoding problem 19:49:12 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:39 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:05 why does build script set LANG=C? 19:51:03 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-rpkxvdqdacivpeyl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:51:06 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-asrpkxbapnryogni] has joined #lisp 19:53:51 That I couldn't tell you. 19:55:07 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:38 _hrrld [~Miranda@searspoint.nvidia.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:09 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:18 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 19:58:51 <_hrrld> Hi, generally speaking, are backquote and comma only used for macros, or are they valid anywhere? 19:58:52 Cut and paste from an originally C targeted script? 19:59:18 _hrrld, If you want to make a literal list they are useful 19:59:39 _hrrld: you don't need them for macros. 20:00:24 _hrrld: backquote syntax is just a handy way of building lists from a template. You can use them to build lists anywhere, when it's convenient. 20:01:19 *nyef* has taken to occasionally using a backquote in a read-time evaluation. 20:01:27 <_hrrld> Oh, neat. I didn't know that. Is there something a normal quote can do that a backquote can't? 20:02:27 _hrrld: `(foo) and '(foo) do the same thing. 20:02:39 _hrrld: They're a little faster to parse, because unquoting isn't permitted inside them. But only a little faster. 20:02:58 Yes. A normal quote can tell a programmer "this is data, with no funny tricks". A backquote requires the programmer to look for commas before they can know that. 20:03:12 Makoryu: More than a little faster for a human parser. 20:03:20 nyef: Well yes, naturally 20:03:28 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:28 Especially if it's a complicated expression 20:03:45 *sykopomp* just found out that `(foo . ,@bar) is 'undefined' 20:03:59 (I know "expression" is the wrong word, but "form" is also the wrong word. So... ¯\O_o/¯ ) 20:04:18 sykopomp: Right, that makes sense. 20:05:33 I remember trying to implement unquote in a parser once 20:05:37 My head kind of exploded 20:05:43 It was very messy 20:05:45 *Guthur* votes for performance in the parser 20:05:55 *sarcastically* 20:05:57 hehe 20:06:00 scheme implements backquote/unquote as macros, no? 20:06:11 sykopomp: Usually 20:06:26 *sykopomp* feels as if that's nicer than pulling off stunts at read time. 20:06:35 AIUI, scheme carefully doesn't specify a reader strategy. 20:07:01 Whereas CL specifies that they are reader-macros, but not what they expand to. 20:07:09 `,foo becomes (quasiquote (unquote foo)), IIRC 20:07:56 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-66-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:08:30 nyef: what does SBCL expand those to? 20:08:41 does it just do all the frobbing at read-time? 20:08:41 sykopomp: Bind *print-pretty* to NIL and find out? 20:08:50 hm 20:09:21 (You need to get the pprinter out of the way, as it's actually set up to reconstitute the backquotish syntax. 20:09:23 ) 20:09:53 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-16-166.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-167.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:11:02 nyef: it just gives me `(FOO ,BAR) :\ 20:11:17 (well, I'm binding *print-pretty* to NIL and doing a read-from-string...) 20:13:01 sykopomp: Umm... Why would *print-pretty* affect -reading-? 20:13:24 And don't forget that the REPL results are printed after the dynamic-extent of the form producing the results. 20:13:33 Well, I'm a bit confused as to what I need to try printing :\ 20:13:56 (let ((*print-pretty* nil)) (print '`(foo ,bar))), perhaps? 20:14:32 gah. 20:14:40 Which? 20:15:22 well, it somehow slipped my mind that the REPL's printer was _above_ the let. 20:15:55 ah 20:16:03 well, that's interesting. 20:17:47 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:59 Some implementations just use LIST* /et alia/, and they can't pprint them back as backquote expressions. 20:18:18 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: lnostdal] 20:18:49 nyef: so BACKQ-LIST is just LIST, but it's got a unique name for the purpose of pprinting? 20:18:55 lnostdal [~lnostdal@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:11 (don't have a SLIME handy to M-. on) 20:21:02 (I made SLIME become handy, and have answered my own question) 20:21:28 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:21:45 That was quick, SLIME is usually pretty slow for me to download 20:22:14 quicklisp is magical. 20:22:24 (so is ssh) 20:22:29 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 20:22:57 yep, I will likely move to QL 20:23:21 I'm having a bit of trouble with ASDF2, unfortunately. 20:23:24 at least with the transition :\ 20:24:14 Is that something that is coming up with QL and ASDF2? 20:24:23 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:28 it's really just an ASDF2 issue. 20:24:39 or rather, an issue with _moving_ to ASDF2. 20:25:01 When did that come into SBCL? 20:25:10 QL installs it. 20:25:14 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:17 ah 20:25:42 folks, why doesn't (string 1234) work? How is this done? 20:25:45 anyway, the tree searching stuff for finding .asd files has caused a few headaches... 20:26:16 clhs string 20:26:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm 20:26:19 loxs: ^ 20:26:44 loxs: You might be interested in a (format nil "~X" 1234) instead. 20:26:54 Or "~36R". That's always a popular one. 20:27:43 sykopomp: Yes, it's just LIST with a special name that the pprinter knows. 20:27:43 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:44 (> "~:@R" * **) 20:27:46 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:28:39 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 20:30:16 nyef, it may be because of my other-languages-impaired-mind but I fail to see the idea behind the string function in that case 20:31:12 loxs: (string 'foo) => "FOO". 20:31:26 And maybe one or two other uses. 20:32:03 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:17 still have a lot to learn :) 20:32:22 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_string.htm <- see Notes section 20:34:42 *Krystof* sees this format stuff and raises you (setf format) 20:35:34 Krystof: 404: http://www.cliki.net/format-setf 20:35:35 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:50 loxs, there's princ-to-string by the way 20:36:05 blandest [~user@93.122.219.152] has joined #lisp 20:36:11 yeah, I found it in the notes 20:36:13 http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/format-setf.lisp 20:36:25 over 10 years old now. Let's standardize it 20:37:04 this doesn't seem to be available in SBCL 20:37:06 *sykopomp* is intimidated by the header. 20:37:22 Krystof: I thought the standard was perfect and never needed to change again 20:38:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:02 sykopomp, what is your ASDF2 issue? 20:39:08 Makoryu: that doesn't stop us from making new standards 20:39:12 Krystof, where is sbcl-page? 20:39:19 Krystof: I'm hoping to start landing the PPC-threads stuff this weekend. 20:39:19 in sbcl cvs, module "sbcl-page" 20:39:39 benny` [~user@i577A1879.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:40 Krystof: Is this what that secret poll was all about? I guess that was you 20:39:42 Fare: Well, I had this old directory with all sorts of code in it -- I enabled the tree search, and it started finding .asds in places I didn't even know existed ;) 20:39:45 Even without documentation. 20:39:57 (not necessarily something wrong with ASDF2, just an interesting hiccup during transition) 20:40:00 is there something like "list slicing" (however it's called) in common lisp? 20:40:20 loxs: A destructuring bind? 20:40:26 then, it kept trying to find the files those ASDs referred to after I nuked the responsible directories... 20:40:28 loxs: It depends on what it is supposed to mean. 20:40:30 a secret poll? No 20:40:38 loxs: Or more like the foo[bar:baz] feature in Python? 20:40:40 or at least it is sufficiently secret that I know nothing about it 20:40:49 (It's also in FORTRAN and Ada and some other stuff) 20:40:49 Makoryu, exactly 20:41:15 -!- benny [~user@i577A3953.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:41:15 (the python stuff) 20:41:16 sbcl.org still says 1.0.40? Is that the same sbcl-page issue? Where is the link to cvs on the main page? Can't find the string "cvs" on the download page. 20:41:19 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:41:20 loxs: Still learning the wrong way I see, by searching for features of your previous languages. 20:41:44 beach, well, I don't know the right way yet, sorry 20:41:46 loxs: I'm sure someone could write a WITH-SLICE macro in about ten minutes 20:42:22 sykopomp, keep finding them - cached in the same image, or more instances in the tree? 20:42:23 loxs: Like where you specify start and end indices and then mutate a list, and the return value of the entire block is a modified list 20:42:39 loxs: Well, if you tell us what it is that you want to do, it would be easier to recommend a good way to do it, than if you refer to a feature of some inferior language that many of us might not know in order to in some way emulate it in Lisp. 20:42:39 loxs: I'm not sure that's in the standard though 20:43:02 beach: Whoa buddy 20:43:25 loxs: there's subseq, but it's usually avoidable 20:43:47 beach: I thought attacking programming languages, calling them "inferior," and implying that they're morally offensive was something people didn't do here anymore 20:43:49 (and what was the conclusion of the discussion wrt moving sbcl to using git?) 20:43:57 Fare: What I remember: 1. Try to load a system, 2. For some god-forsaken reason, it tries to load a seemingly unrelated .asd deep in the tree (resulting in error), 3. Nuke the directory where that deep .asd was, 4. Try to load the system again (it tried to load the files related to the old .asd that is now gone) 20:44:26 sykopomp, you may need to re- (asdf:initialize-source-registry) 20:44:30 Makoryu: politically correct much? 20:44:32 I'm honestly not even sure _why_ it was trying to load that .asd. That was quite confusing. 20:44:33 you cure the symptoms 20:44:36 I'm just playing with the interpreter. No particular problem that I need to solve. Just interested to know how am I supposed to do such a thing, or in this particular case, to find out that (probably) I'm not supposed to do such things 20:44:37 lol 20:44:40 Fare: does it do that every time you restart the image? 20:44:40 doctor 20:45:05 adeht: Is that bad 20:45:13 loxs: Are you sure you are playing with an interpreter? Or are you confusing interpretation and interactivity? 20:45:22 Fare: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/develop 20:45:29 adeht: I mean... Should I be more of an elitist asshole? Would that bring me more acceptance in this channel? 20:45:41 beach, I guess I'm wrong with this too. 20:45:55 Makoryu: There is a much simpler explanation, namely that I am again in a rotten mood. :( 20:45:55 Makoryu: getting worked up on such a remark is being a moralist asshole 20:46:01 the conclusion wrt sbcl moving to git was that there were one or two things that it would be nice to be sure we can do, and then someone needs to do the work to do it 20:46:04 For reference, I found this with google http://sourceforge.net/scm/?type=cvs&group_id=1373 and it told me how to checkout with CVS 20:46:07 beach, not confusing, just accustomed to call the shell "an interpreter" sorry 20:46:15 Krystof: What were the one or two things, again? 20:46:19 I can't remember 20:46:20 isn't there a tool to look for circular and non-fitting deps for packages ?' 20:46:24 I probably took notes 20:46:25 adeht: I didn't really feel very worked up about it... I thought I was pretty calm really 20:46:26 'cause ISTR one of them being the version-numbering. 20:46:29 Krystof: what kind of things? 20:46:32 loxs: No need to be sorry. Just learn. 20:46:32 beach: Fair enough 20:46:45 nyef: version numbering in what sense? 20:47:00 p_l: In the sense of "not screwing up the version numbering scheme we currently use". 20:47:07 Makoryu: sure seems a lot of noise for such a calm mood 20:47:13 beach, Python may be inferior if we speak about good design etc. If we talk about popularity it's another story ;) 20:47:18 maybe that page (or its instructions) could be linked or copied on the download page or some such? 20:48:00 *foom* is for abandoning the current commit-numbering scheme. 20:48:01 loxs: This is important to me, because to my students it goes like this: interactive => interpreted, interpreted => slow, Lisp is interactive so Lisp is slow. 20:48:28 adeht: I think if I was actually angry I would convey that anger pretty clearly in my text 20:49:02 Krystof, how do I reproduce the failure? env CURRENT_RELEASE=1.0.41 make ? 20:49:07 nyef: how it would screw? you mean the 1.0.. ? 20:49:12 adeht: If it makes you feel better I will try not to be such a bleeding-heart commie liberal moonbat in the future 20:49:21 p_l: Yeah. That's the one. 20:49:22 Makoryu: thank you 20:49:22 I don't really see why it matters 20:49:22 loxs: Indeed. If I were using a programming language because of its popularity, I wouldn't be here. 20:49:32 Fare: I think you also need to put sbcl's NEWS file in the sbcl-page directory 20:49:36 we would all be coding Java, of course :) 20:49:50 beach, neither me :) 20:49:51 Fare: I didn't write this, and I barely know how it works :-/ 20:50:05 SBCL *could* switch to git, not change the version numbering scheme, and not automate it either. You'd just need to rebase before you commit every time. 20:50:15 Makoryu, adeht: I am sorry I used the word "inferior". Let's move on! 20:50:27 foom: What, after all the trouble I went to to automate it? 20:50:27 Krystof, you mean, copy it from the sbcl module to the sbcl-page module on cvs, or arrange for the script to find it at the right place? 20:50:42 nyef: Well I still think it'd be best to abandon the whole scheme. :) 20:50:47 Fare: copy the NEWS file from 1.0.41 into the sbcl-page directory 20:51:24 I mean, at run-time, or make it the new source home for it? 20:51:30 If it's automated, that makes it harder to abandon 2 weeks after switching to git when it's realized that the commit numbers aren't all that important afterall. 20:51:37 This all looks like it's beyond my access rights :-/ 20:52:01 Fare: you don't really need the cvs access rights, I think 20:52:39 nyef: doesn't sound hard to automate it, assuming for example that it would be only in the "origin" repository 20:52:41 *Fare* looks at the makefile and sees the commented out NEWS:: entry. 20:52:41 you just need to copy the NEWS file from the 1.0.41 into the sbcl-page checkout directory on your file system 20:52:57 p_l: nyef *already* automated it. 20:53:03 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:53:04 p_l: Right. And, again, it's already -done-. 20:53:13 Check the sbcl-devel archives. 20:53:21 nyef: ok. So what is the show-stopper? 20:53:29 Exactly! 20:53:39 someone actually putting it into production? 20:53:49 p_l: that no-one is sufficiently strongly motivated to put on a show 20:54:13 or this particular show, anyway 20:54:13 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:51 So, if someone -were- to put up an SBCL git repository with the version-generating commit-hook, would it actually get used? 20:56:12 nyef: certainly if said someone also made the CVS repo read-only at the same time. :) 20:56:14 so, now that I know that list slicing is not a good idea, is it a good idea to use "indexed lists" (are they called arrays here) and fetch elements by position? 20:56:42 loxs: You didn't explain to me what you mean by "list slicing". 20:56:57 but arrays are indeed pretty useful for random access. 20:57:16 and you can "slice" them by creating displaced arrays 20:57:22 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:57:23 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:57:25 loxs: Nor "indexed list". 20:57:31 adeht: to a certain extent 20:57:40 beach: In python [a, b, c, d, e][1:3] - that's list slicing 20:57:50 pkhuong: right.. and then there are TKP's libraries 20:57:51 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:51 clhs SUBSEQ 20:57:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 20:57:55 loxs: ^^^ (: 20:57:59 loxs: The problem with indexing into lists is that you have to traverse the entire list to get to any given element 20:58:20 loxs: So you need to know Python to understand that concept? 20:58:31 loxs: lists count as sequences, so you can use the sequences functions to operate on them 20:58:44 Makoryu: that's a problem under some circumstances. In other circumstances, it's just an implementation detail. 20:59:17 Shaftoe_: True. I guess if he's only working with short lists it doesn't matter anyway 20:59:22 loxs: subseq does that slicing; check out the sequences dictionary for other neat things it can do (: 20:59:23 Makoryu: iow, I think at this exploratory stage, it could be sufficient to just tell him about subseq. 20:59:43 Makoryu: aye 21:00:52 antifuchs: Aww. I am trying to get loxs to give a definition, rather than having us say something defensive such as "well, you understand, it doesn't quite exist like that in Lisp,...". 21:00:59 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:01:05 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:01:23 beach, "indexed list" (don't care if it's academically correct term) is a list where every member can be identified by it's sequential number. And from last night's discussion I thought you know a little python. Sorry if that's not true. 21:01:55 loxs: that is the case with any sequential data structure. 21:02:00 loxs: I do, but Python is off topic here, so I would prefer that we define the concepts from first principles. 21:02:22 includinc CL's lists 21:02:23 loxs: That's known as a "vector" or a "sequence" in most langauges. 21:02:28 including* 21:03:01 thanks, I'll read about vectors and sequences then 21:03:05 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 21:03:30 loxs: CL has a number of types that fall into the category of 'sequence' 21:03:44 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:03:54 sykopomp: Yeah, and the number is 2? :) 21:04:17 beach: well, it's much more if you count the individual kinds of array. 21:04:20 loxs: In Lisp, a list is a concrete data structure consisting of linked cons cells, each containing an element of the list. (simplification). 21:04:29 (such as strings) 21:04:31 sykopomp: Fine :) 21:04:46 and it may be silly, but I don't care about academical correctness too much. That's not to say I don't like what you are trying to do, beach. Thanks for giving me some hard time :) 21:05:42 loxs: I think you will find that sticking to accepted terminology as soon as you possibly can makes discussion much more productive and much more rewarding. 21:06:09 loxs: XP 21:06:10 *sykopomp* points out how overloaded the term 'vector' is, even as a sequential data structure. 21:06:11 I agree 21:06:30 homie, what do you mean by XP? 21:06:32 *sykopomp* also likes the overloadedness of 'map' and 'hash' 21:07:16 one of the agile programming concepts mentioning the need for clear communication terms 21:07:16 loxs: So if we don't mean the same thing when we say "list", how are we supposed to agree about "list slicing"? 21:07:21 the problem with asking for "something like [$foo in another language]" is that we can't tell exactly which part of $foo you're looking for. 21:07:40 that's what beach told you' 21:08:30 homie: Ah, yes, interesting. XP is the first development model I know about that is honest about that and a lot more things that have been supressed by other models. 21:08:53 i just glanced over it 21:09:12 I'm starting to understand why is lisp not very popular :) 21:09:14 homie: Me too; just enough to give a course in it :) 21:09:18 i thought it to be more of a programming thing, and found it to be more of methodology 21:09:33 s/methodology/religion/ 21:09:41 loxs: please share. 21:09:56 beach: Because it's pre-Madonna? 21:10:06 nyef: :) 21:10:11 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:23 *nyef* loves that pun. 21:10:29 homie, don't call xp agile, or scrummasters will find and cook you alive 21:10:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:10:58 eh ? 21:11:09 sykopomp: XP does exaggerate a bit, but it is very refreshing to someone who has worked in industry and used waterfall. 21:11:10 there's a bit of animosity between the preachers 21:11:30 it's even put under a directory named agile, that document' 21:11:33 lol 21:12:07 nyef: that was a dirty pun indeed. booo. :) 21:12:08 well, most people (including me to some extend) just want to have some work done. They are not trying to be absolutely correct, nor they are trying to use the perfect language. And they are probably not trying to be very smart. Just to have some simple problems solved :). 21:12:21 beach: aspects of XP/Agile are, indeed, quite refreshing. Waterfall has been a pain :\ 21:12:21 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0507.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:12:21 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0507.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 21:12:21 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 21:12:24 XP viewed side-on is what extreme programmers look like after a week practicing XP 21:12:34 beach: my main beef with these methodologies is how strict they seem to be (to me) 21:13:02 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:13 and "inferior" languages offer problem solving with less fuss. 21:13:27 loxs: then use those languages! 21:13:47 (incf drewc`) 21:13:51 drewc`, well, in my case, I haven't still decided in which campus I want to reside :D 21:13:51 in emacs it's all inferior' 21:13:53 lol 21:14:19 homie: unless it's the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. 21:14:21 loxs: seems like you're dead set on doing things the same way you've always done then. Lisp is different. 21:14:26 yep 21:14:36 so.... 21:14:41 Lisp is 'superior'? :) 21:14:44 sykopomp: spiral with strict adherence to rules can be beneficial sometimes, though 21:14:48 drewc`, I am not. And that's exactly the reason I'm having this conversation right now 21:15:05 p_l: probably. I haven't worked in a place that actually does full Agile. 21:15:11 drewc`, I just don't know other ways (yet) 21:15:20 sykopomp: I used to run emacs as an inferior process to SBCL. Does that count? 21:15:36 loxs: If there is a necessary condition for a language to be popular that its practitioners refuse to define what they mean, and prefer to argue about undefined terminology, then I think I prefer to use a less popular langauge. 21:15:37 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:15:38 nyef: it was inferior -- and then it became superior. 21:16:07 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 21:16:32 reminds me of inertial systems 21:16:47 beach: would be nice if we weren't stuck with the 'agreements' made decades ago, by people who don't even care about the language anymore. 21:16:52 I could do with less of that. 21:17:12 sykopomp: I agree with that analysis. But then, why on earth does it matter whether you use "XP" or something that is "mostly XP". In fact, the books I have read (by XP advocates) say, "hey, you don't have to use all of this, just try a few things that seem to work in your current situation". And that's sound in my opinion. 21:17:35 sykopomp: Spiral is actually "iterated" waterfall, btw 21:17:38 sykopomp: What do you mean by that? 21:18:01 beach: Being stuck with a 20-year-old, unchanging standard. :( 21:18:05 as nice as it is... 21:18:17 loxs: well, learning the correct names for things is a big part of learning to use any new language.. academical correctness, whatever that is, has little to do with the motivation behind the use of well defined terminology/jargon. 21:18:22 urandom_ [~user@p548A598E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:33 sykopomp: all you need is for new stuff to get implemented across the board... 21:18:46 sykopomp: While I know what you mean, I just can't figure out why people seem to think that this situation is worse than having no standard at all. 21:19:00 beach: I'm not comparing it to having no standard at all. 21:19:03 beach, drewc`, I'm not saying that I don't want to learn, or that I refuse to learn. I just asked a question for something that I didn't know the right terminology (yet) 21:19:14 I'm comparing it to having a _series_ of standards. 21:19:17 sykopomp: Some people do, though. 21:19:25 then again, I'm sure Schemers are cursing that process as well. 21:19:28 see R6RS 21:19:30 Meh. We have a standard. Honor it in the breach. 21:19:47 sykopomp: who's stuck with a standard? just because ANSI hasn't updated doesn't mean CL hasn't evolved! 21:19:57 loxs: Try to explain it instead of referring to Python. You might actually find that what you want is ill-defined and hard to explain, so parhaps not a good idea. 21:20:09 drewc`: _CL_ hasn't evolved, because CL is the standard. 21:20:23 _implementations_ have evolved, with the same disadvantages of not having a standard. 21:20:28 sykopomp: no, it's not. never has been. 21:20:42 drewc`: I'm confused about what you mean. 21:20:52 CL is not the standard, the standard describes a CL 21:20:58 beach, to my pythonic thinking it was perfectly well-defined and easy to explain. But not to users of superior languages as it seems :) 21:21:05 loxs: as for list slicing, SUBSEQ could be macroized into similar form 21:21:11 clhs subsq 21:21:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for subsq. 21:21:11 drewc`: what's CL then, if not the implementations, and not the standard? :) 21:21:13 clhs subseq 21:21:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 21:21:38 sykopomp: both, and more than the sum of its parts. 21:21:45 a nebulous concept loosely described by a patchwork of things that claim to be 'cl', then? 21:22:04 at this point, this is just semantics. 21:22:39 loxs: OK, so take "list slicing". Is it an expression that returns a value? Is the value allowed by the (non-existing) standard to share structure with the input? Does it have to? What is the complexity of the operation? Do we even know? 21:23:04 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-251-148-150.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:24 Is it anything like "array slicing", which I still have to sit down and hack up for SBCL? 21:23:28 beach: are there parts in CLHS that specify what the complexity of operations should be?? 21:24:02 somehow noone has that problem with ansi c 21:24:12 drewc`: did cltl3 completely lose steam, btw? 21:24:17 not supporting threads, ui, or os-independent pathnames 21:24:21 sykopomp: Not often (if at all), but it is usually clear what the best possible complexity would be. 21:24:28 but i guess someone does 21:25:14 beach, this again comes to priorities. For me these things were never (till now) source of such questions. and I have done quite some work with these techniques. And to be honest, that's what I care about. Even about CL. And I leave such hard problems for your kind to solve. 21:25:17 varjag: Perhaps the reason for that is that ANSI C doesn't have any data structures other than the array. 21:25:19 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-213-145.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:45 loxs: it's never a question until it bites you in the ass. 21:25:45 sykopomp: the purpose of ANSI CL was/is to promote the portability of code among a variety of existing CL systems, not to define itself as the only Common Lisp. I don't consider ANSI CL the one true common lisp as it's missing operations that were and still are in common use across lisp implementations. 21:26:12 sykopomp: CLtL3 is on the back burner, i don't have the time at the moment to commit to it. 21:26:26 beach, i mean noone complains that c99 is old and limited 21:26:33 loxs: So your original question can be rephrased as "Does Common Lisp have this unspecified feature on this unspecified data structure, whose behavior is unspecified?" How do you expect an answer to that? 21:26:35 varjag: they don't??? 21:26:49 nope 21:26:54 never met anyone yet 21:27:25 Possibly because it's just understood as a fact? 21:27:26 a lot of people have that opinion that c is fundamentally broken 21:27:39 which is totally different issue from standartisation effort 21:27:39 Jesus. Are you guys still talking about that? 21:27:46 I've been watching this thing about subseq for a while now, and I have a meta comment to make: users of lisp shouldn't assume that others don't want to learn. They should only assume that pretty much every language out there is of a different ideological nature. It's terribly off putting to accuse someone of being narrow minded 21:27:54 heh. Makoryu: exactly my point. 21:27:58 Hey, does subseq work with setf? 21:28:01 I just did like an hour of work 21:28:16 clhs subseq 21:28:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 21:28:19 Makoryu: ^ 21:28:28 Well there you go 21:28:49 beach, my question was more of the kind: "I know this, I have no idea what you think about it. So, could you please tell me something on the topic". And in fact you did. In fact more than I needed :) 21:28:50 loxs: The only possible result of such a question is a futile dialog like "-Sure we have subseq. -But subseq doesn't do what Python does in this case! -Oh, but for that we have setf! -But setf doesn't do what Python does in this other case!" until you require Lisp to actually *be* Python, which it isn't. 21:28:59 (con't) ...someone of being narrow minded when all they are is using a different way of thinking. 21:29:10 loxs: Write "foo[2:10] = bar" as "(setf (subseq foo 2 10) bar)" 21:29:41 beach: well, if it comes to that, there's cl-python 21:30:25 beach, I don't require Lisp to actually be Python. I just want to learn the lispy way. A simple answer of the kind "go play with other toys" would do :) 21:30:55 loxs: I hope you are not interpreting this as my picking on you. It is the contrary. I see in you a very likely victim of Lisp indoctrination, so I want to pursue it as much as possible. 21:31:19 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 loxs: the point is that we wouldn't like you to write python (or fortran, or...) in lisp 21:31:36 loxs: Other people would have left #lisp a long time ago. Your still being around shows that you are actually interested in this way of thinking. 21:31:47 You guys suck 21:31:49 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:31:57 /ragequit 21:32:03 the python way 21:32:05 What's his problem? 21:32:13 *cough* 21:32:27 beach, I am in fact interested. And I am a bit surprised that you don't believe it :) 21:32:43 loxs: Oh, but I *do* believe it. 21:33:01 loxs: Otherwise, I would have stopped talking to you a long time ago! 21:33:13 beach, wrong term again. I *was* a bit surprised :) 21:33:15 loxs: please remember that the Python Way is not the only way to do things. It's likely that approaching things in a _similar_ way will get you results in CL, but they won't necessarily be great results, nor will they necessarily be 'idiomatic'. 21:33:42 loxs: I realized this almost from the start. 21:34:05 sykopomp, that's the only way I know thoroughly. And comparing the two ways seems like (at leas partially) a good way to go. 21:34:23 loxs: you may have to let go of that assumption. 21:34:29 if anything, the CL way is 'do it the best way you can and make the language support it'. The trick to learning CL is learning to think outside of what languages force on you. 21:35:22 loxs: instead of asking about an analogate to the means you have in python, we want you to ask about how to attain the ends in your mind with the means idiomatic in lisp 21:35:28 in fact, the reason to come to CL is that I found lots of defficiencies in Python. I wanted to be able to do some of the "tricks" in more elegant ways 21:35:42 loxs: You may have to let go of that :) 21:35:56 loxs: Yeah, yeah, we got that part. Now we have to train you to become a Lisper. 21:36:01 you could trivially create a python-like sequence structure that supports the semantics found in Python and solve the problem that way, but unless 'creating python like sequences' is actually you problem, that's the wrong way to go about solving things. 21:36:21 -!- moah [~gnu@178.1.125.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:33 loxs: If you want Python, you'll have to use Python. If you want to write Lisp, you'll need to be a bit more creative than that, and understand problems from a more general perspective. 21:36:50 yeah, I know that 21:37:00 sykopomp: And some of us are willing to help loxs with that. 21:37:07 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-440.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:37:22 I can see that too. Thanks :) 21:37:42 loxs: you probably won't see a very big advantage to macros or metaprogramming if you don't change your approach, for example... 21:37:58 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:38:06 loxs: you're a good sport, i think you'll do well :) 21:38:17 that said, I do understand that you don't _have_ that perspective yet, so using python to explain it can be useful -- even then, there's better ways to approach it. 21:38:24 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:37 drewc`, well, I can bear a lot of critique, that's for sure :) 21:38:39 "I want to do X and Y to my string. In Python, I would usually use its list splicing, like so ... " "How should I approach this problem in CL?" 21:38:40 loxs: I repeat, you should not feel like you are being picked on. You should feel like you passed the first test of willingness to being educated, and what you feel as being picked on is just the first part of your education. 21:38:54 loxs: I bet you'll get lots of help that way :) 21:39:23 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39:24 drewc`: Well put! 21:39:47 sykopomp, I was thinking that I asked the question in a similar way. Sorry if it sounded differently. May be because of not being a native speaker of the English language. 21:39:51 loxs: that's a good thing... we don't pull many punches around here, but if you can weather the beating you always learn something :) 21:40:07 loxs: Most of us aren't. 21:40:34 [I think] 21:41:04 beach, even if you are picking on me, this doesn't matter, as long as you do it with the right terminology ;) 21:41:10 loxs: I think the difference is a little subtle. In one, you ask for an analogous construct in CL. In another, you ask for a general solution to a problem and give some perspective from what you know (and acknowledge that the perspective you're giving in python-specific) 21:41:11 :D 21:41:26 silenius [~silenius@dslb-088-072-001-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:24 sykopomp, they seem quite alike to me, but you are right. There is a difference. And that difference seems to matter to the people around here 21:42:25 sykopomp: Wow, you guys are so eloquent today. 21:42:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-15.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:42:42 sykopomp, it for sure wouldn't matter to the folks in #python :) 21:42:43 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:45 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:02 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:03 sykopomp, and now that I do know the difference, I'll be careful 21:43:15 loxs: I repeat, you are *not* being picked on. We are exploiting your willingness to listen and learn in order to educate you. 21:43:29 andrewszha1 [~andrew@221.131.77.5] has joined #lisp 21:43:31 -!- andrewszha1 [~andrew@221.131.77.5] has left #lisp 21:43:37 beach, yeah, I believe you :) 21:43:51 whew! 21:43:52 loxs: pythoners may consider the differences small, but coding in python, from a lispers perspective, is like coding with both hands tied behind my back. 21:43:55 beach: time for swirlies! 21:44:26 andrewszha1 [~andrew@221.131.77.5] has joined #lisp 21:44:36 -!- andrewszha1 [~andrew@221.131.77.5] has left #lisp 21:44:56 sykopomp: on IRC? Pretty hard! 21:45:02 drewc`, in fact, I can already confirm this, from the small knowledge of CL that I have. The more I know, the more I find flaws in python. 21:45:37 beach: we'll schedule him for the next ILC 21:45:52 sykopomp: You're on your own. I won't be there. 21:45:58 :( 21:46:13 Too much traveling lately. 21:46:22 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:22 *drewc`* is having way to much fun with append-only b+-trees 21:47:38 -!- klm1 [~user@p57A7B744.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:49 i never thought an index could get me so excited, but this is very cool stuff. :) 21:48:03 drewc`: what's this for? 21:48:07 rucksack? 21:48:36 what is the idea behind dividing functions and variables in two different namespaces (if I am right in my observations)? 21:48:36 sykopomp: yeah, or something that will evolve from rucksack and support a similar API 21:48:43 -!- silenius [~silenius@dslb-088-072-001-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:48 loxs: think of them as verbs and nouns 21:48:52 drewc`: are there any plans to support CCL, by the way? 21:49:21 loxs: there's fewer conflicts. There's other namespaces/subenvironments as well. 21:49:25 alright! it's time for me to start the ranks of full-time cl programmers again (: 21:49:36 there's a particularly fantastic example in PAIP, but I don't have the book handy :) 21:49:39 borism [~boris@130.77.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:49:50 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 21:50:01 sykopomp: it will be portable anywhere bordeaux-threads runs at first, but it doesn't actually require threads as long as i can serialize writes somehow, so it should be portable everywhere. 21:50:13 (portable as in 'can be ported', not 'has been ported') 21:50:17 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:18 drewc`: Mind your memory barriers! 21:50:22 drewc`: oh? Do you have a release date for this version? 21:51:02 sykopomp: yes, i can give you a date range of sometime later this year until the heat death of the universe.... likely significantly closer to the former date. 21:51:10 loxs: so you can write (if (typep list 'list) list (list list)) and get away with it (-: 21:51:19 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:51:23 antifuchs: welcome back! :) 21:51:24 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:28 drewc`: alright ;) 21:51:28 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51:30 thanks, drewc` (: 21:51:36 drewc`, but if I think of them as verbs and nouns, I get a bit confused by the fact that I can use a function as a noun. 21:51:47 antifuchs, that's too "high-tech" for me yet :) 21:52:02 loxs: it's called a gerund. 21:52:08 loxs: you can store a function in a noun... because 'function' is both a noun and a verb, innit :) 21:52:33 hm, yes 21:52:49 (too bad cl doesn't specify "function!" as a debugging aid) 21:53:08 loxs: the end result is that you don't get conflicts when referring to something as a verb, and something as a noun... 21:53:27 loxs: (defun mylist (list) (list list)) 21:53:53 sykopomp, that's it. Thanks. Now I see :) 21:54:25 loxs: in lisp-1s, you need to make sure conflicts like that never happen. 21:54:45 that means clojure, right? 21:54:52 or scheme 21:54:53 clojure, arc, and scheme 21:55:00 loxs: and python, actually. 21:55:15 Norvig called Python a lisp-1. 21:55:52 antifuchs: Nice example. My favorite one is from McCLIM: (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft) 21:56:14 beach: hah! that's a good one (: 21:56:16 *sykopomp* needs to carry PAIP around with him. 21:56:25 sykopomp: it's a big book! 21:56:32 sykopomp: As a bludgeoning weapon? 21:56:33 drewc`: because it's full of KNOWLEDGE 21:56:38 nyef: that too 21:56:40 *drewc`* often wishes for a pdf of that one 21:57:46 (defun f (f) (block f (catch 'f (tagbody f (return-from f (throw 'f (go f (f (make-instance 'f :f f))))))))) 21:57:52 it irritates me that I think I'm missing a few. 21:58:09 antifuchs: [OT] thanks for a wonderful party, and a very kind "thank you" letter! We had a great time, and I actually made you parents think I speak some German! 21:58:28 beach: you're very welcome, and I'm glad you enjoyed it (: 21:58:35 loxs: it's also a matter of efficiency.. a symbol's function cell must contain a function if anything, whereas in a lisp1 the value may be something else 21:58:38 you did impress my parents a lot, btw (: 21:58:54 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-136-023.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:08 adeht: I don't see how that's necessarily a problem in practice. 21:59:21 at least not in the common case, with an anything-but-naive compiler. 21:59:41 sykopomp: well, that's an argument from the discussion of Pitman & Gabriel 21:59:42 antifuchs: Great! :) Don't know why, though. Your father is a great guy. I didn't get to talk as much to your mother. 22:00:06 adeht: it's also given a counterargument in that same discussion. 22:00:48 sykopomp: what was the counterargument again? 22:02:20 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:03:23 adeht: the most dynamic way is to internally implement a lisp-2, but the simplest analysis is simply that most globals are bound once. 22:03:26 adeht: now that I actually pull up the paper, it seems like it's not so much a counterargument as it is an acknowledgement that this isn't always the case (that compilers can do inference, or introduce declarations) 22:04:28 pkhuong: I see 22:08:17 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:08:17 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:08:17 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 22:08:20 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:53 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:16 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:23 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:21:03 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:22:53 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:32 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:06 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:53 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:34:47 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:18 mhd [~mhd@cust-206-40-162-83.bos-static.gis.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:04 is there some kind of built in language reference in SLIME? 22:36:19 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:37:30 loxs: hyperspec-lookup is usually installed along with it, there's even a copy of one in SLIME sources, iirc 22:37:36 you can look up things in the hyperspec with C-c d-h 22:38:01 sorry, C-c C-d h 22:38:19 you can download the hyperspec and have (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "file:/home/user/lisp/HyperSpec/") in your .emacs 22:38:21 my fingers know it, not my brain 22:38:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:39:43 Minishark [cegner@devio.us] has joined #lisp 22:40:13 thanks 22:41:35 loxs: what kind of stuff are you interested in? 22:41:35 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:43 (wrt programming) 22:41:52 anything in particular you're trying to put together? 22:42:04 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:08 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:09 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:23 -!- blandest [~user@93.122.219.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:42:26 -!- _hrrld [~Miranda@searspoint.nvidia.com] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 22:48:06 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:49:12 abend [~alx@76.76.146.16] has joined #lisp 22:51:43 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-136-221.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-33.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:55:41 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:55:48 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:55:51 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:28 sykopomp, it will for sure be web (in the broader sense) 22:56:45 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:51 and it will maybe involve XMPP as well 22:57:38 !!! 22:57:47 are you one of the devs for Diaspora? ;) 22:58:04 sykopomp, probably the first thing I'm going to write is a client library for CouchDB 22:58:22 loxs: there's already several of those. 22:58:28 and at least two view servers. 22:59:08 no, I'm not involved with diaspora. And I'm not interested in social networking :) 22:59:31 I was mostly kidding ;) 22:59:57 anyway -- http://github.com/sykopomp/chillax is my client + view server 23:00:06 there's also clouchdb, cl-couchdb, and cl-couch 23:00:12 ...one of those includes a view server. 23:00:13 sykopomp, if I happen to find some nice library for CouchDb, then probably I'll write (the second thing) some library/framework for writing XMPP components 23:00:32 wow, you use CouchDb :) 23:00:36 all of them need some work, tbh. 23:00:45 Personally, I think mine is the best, of course. 23:00:46 *cough* 23:00:52 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:03 loxs: I'm not using it for anything right now, though. 23:02:08 sykopomp, I've been using couchdb in production for more than 2 years now. So I certainly have the need for a nice client library 23:02:29 if I happen to learn CL good enough, I may help you with the lib :) 23:03:04 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:03:17 sykopomp: pffft... *use* CouchDB... that's not the lisp way! :P 23:03:43 drewc`: ofc, the lisp way is to implement my own database using with-open-file and s-expressions. 23:03:50 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:03:51 The Chapter 3 Database 23:04:25 sykopomp: heh... i'm just doing what couchdb does, only using lisp rather than erlang. 23:04:32 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:48 drewc`: heh 23:05:20 drewc`: I'd rather use rucksack. The lack of docs is a little painful, though, so I can't really figure out what went wrong when a call doesn't do quite what I expect. 23:05:37 most likely, I'll just end up using postmodern for my current project. :\ 23:05:44 using the serialization primitives from rucksack + a minor modification of the b-tree code and i pretty much have the couchdb backend but it stores lisp objects rather than documents. 23:06:18 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:06:41 loxs: let me know if you decide to try it and need/want help. Having users is a good motivation to improve code :P 23:06:58 rucksack is quite cool, but yeah there's little docs. 23:07:00 (and I finally pulled in a patch that ported Chillax to use CLOS instead of Sheeple..) 23:07:16 drewc`: the tutorial linked doesn't quite work, for example... 23:07:42 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 23:07:55 sykopomp, I probably will try it, whenever I learn enough lisp to write something meaningful :) 23:08:07 ;) 23:08:10 sykopomp: i tend to M-. from the simplest of examples, but that's not an approach for those who haven't done the sort of things rucksack does in CL before :) 23:08:34 loxs: and then you can join me in eagerly awaiting the release (and optimization) of rucksack :P 23:08:56 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:00 *sykopomp* goes home. 23:10:02 sykopomp, I don't even know what rucksack is, but it's not impossible :) 23:14:33 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:14:47 minion: Tell loxs about Rucksack 23:14:48 loxs: look at Rucksack: Rucksack is a persistence library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/Rucksack 23:14:50 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:30 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:32 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:16:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-139-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:49 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-136-221.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:30 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:21:44 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:22:22 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-139-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:41 how do you guys split a string in parts? For example if I want to split "abc-def-ghi" into ("abc" "def" "ghi")? 23:28:33 In general, I'd appreciate if someone can refer me to some articles on string and list manipulations 23:29:25 I probably made a mistake again, saying "list manipulations", as that's what Lisp is doing in general :) 23:29:38 minion: split-sequence 23:29:40 split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 23:29:44 minion: cl-ppcre 23:29:45 cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 23:29:48 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 23:30:17 thanks 23:30:20 loxs: split-sequence is good enough for simple tasks, cl-ppcre is a (very very fast) regex implementation. 23:30:33 loxs: note that cl-ppcre is faster than perl in some cases ;) 23:30:41 perl's regexen* 23:31:11 thanks 23:31:21 that's pretty cool 23:31:52 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:57 regexps are magic, but I always miss a way to say "if this, but not this" 23:34:25 sykopomp, as far as I can see (at least in gentoo) there are two packages. One being cl-ppcre-unicode. Is it a lot slower? 23:35:34 fe[nl]ix would know more about the gentoo packages. 23:35:48 my gut reaction is to avoid distro-specific packages like the plague, though. 23:36:32 my gut reaction is to trust gentoo :) 23:37:00 (wouldn't say the same for ubuntu though :)) 23:37:13 OliverUv: that is usually pretty easy in perl-derived regexp libraries. for example foo(?!bar) means "foo" not followed by "bar" 23:41:01 jsnell: oh, nice! 23:41:27 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-220.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:11 nyef: You are the resident clx expert, no? 23:42:15 so I could do something like /([.!)]*hello)/ to find within only one set of parentheses? 23:42:22 Sikander: To a degree, why? 23:42:30 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:42:43 *nyef* has sudden vague memories of font rotation. 23:42:44 nyef: I have problems with xlib:font-plist always returning nil. 23:42:53 nyef: Yes, I got that to work actually 23:42:55 ... At a guess, you're using the wrong API. 23:43:17 (otherwise, even non-greedy matching wouldn't work, as they would match ( shouldn't ( be matching hello ))) 23:43:18 What do you mean, using the wrong API? 23:43:26 Well, what are you hoping to accomplish? 23:43:42 Have you tried -setting- the font-plist to anything? 23:43:44 er, I mean I could do something like /([.!(]*hello/ 23:43:46 First, I'd like to know what properties are listed in the plist 23:43:52 assuming parens don't need to be escaped 23:44:11 Then, I'd like to set those properties to something, yes. 23:44:25 But if I don't even know which properties are actually relevant... 23:44:39 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:54 actually maybe non-greedy matching would fix that problem, but I don't think so 23:45:02 Currently, I'm achieving affine transforms by taking the current name of the font, and opening a new, transformed font temporarily 23:45:37 I was wondering if it was possible to look at the plist, and just _set_ certain properties so that it would transform the current font 23:46:02 The current way works fine, but looks like a hack 23:46:12 (which it is, obviously) 23:46:38 Umm... Wait, transform the -current- font? Aren't they supposed to be, you know, immutable? 23:46:51 ... 23:47:00 I thought that the font-plist is setf-able 23:47:12 jmbr [~jmbr@141.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:47:24 Sure, it should be. 23:47:33 So perhaps I don't understand what font-plist is supposed to be. But it always returns nil... 23:47:41 Right, it's a storage hook for extensions. 23:47:50 I thought, that perhaps you can set spacings etc.? 23:48:23 Umm... Not that familiar with this part of CLX, but aren't spacings calculated by the server? 23:48:32 Ok, so if it's not possible to do so, then I have basically something that works. 23:48:57 I was wondering if there is any interest in putting this in clx, or if I should just add it to the McCLIM CLX backend 23:51:07 Umm... Send the patch to the clx-devel list, so we at least have a record of it, and then just add it to the McCLIM backend for now? 23:51:24 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:51:48 That way it's available in McCLIM, and it can possibly be included in CLX. 23:52:02 nyef: Ok, will do. 23:52:24 What sucks, though, is that apparently the Xserver is aware of horizontal spacing, but not vertical one. 23:53:03 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:07 So when the font is rotated, the new horizontal spacing seems to go like the cosine of the original horizontal spacing. 23:53:20 So rotating pi/2 basically puts all letters on top of each other 23:54:10 In any case, it's great; shear also works. 23:54:35 So finally, I can have vertical y-axis labels in CLX! 23:57:43 -!- ][V][ICHAEL [~user@207.178.208.5] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]