00:01:30 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:51 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:03:11 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 00:03:58 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-65.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 00:04:06 *_3b`* gives up, spammers have more patience than i do :/ 00:09:24 -!- jlf is now known as jlf` 00:09:25 <_3b`> drewc: if cliki.net has any automated antispam measures, see document and araneida pages... manual fixes don't seem to be effective 00:09:35 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:46 <_3b`> (or anyone else that does cliki admin stuff) 00:10:25 davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has joined #lisp 00:10:43 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:12:40 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:49 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-194.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:14:37 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:34 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:16:34 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:17:09 -!- jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:37 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:19:51 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:09 metasyntax` [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 00:20:15 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 00:20:27 -!- ski [~slj@c-e812e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:40 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:23:18 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:18 -!- benny [~user@i577A87FC.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:19 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:35 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:38 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:38 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:44 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:56 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:59 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:24:52 -!- abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:02 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:25:03 abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has joined #lisp 00:27:11 ski [~slj@c-e812e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:58 abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has joined #lisp 00:28:08 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:29:04 -!- abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:18 abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has joined #lisp 00:29:39 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.117] has joined #lisp 00:30:01 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:32:14 hadronzoo [~user@24.40.129.231] has joined #lisp 00:32:58 jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 00:37:49 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:19 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 00:39:19 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 00:39:19 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 00:42:33 where might i be able to host a small wiki for the #lispgames folks? it involves a lot of CL people but also some clojure etc, and we're not sure CLiki is the right place for it. We've used cliki for a few pages, but should we find something of our own? if so, can anyone suggest places to look? i'm thinking oddmuse-based wiki, something i can edit from emacs or from the web 00:43:24 it seems like the majority is cl-based stuff, but not all of it 00:43:31 dto: github? 00:43:42 *Xach* had the impression it had some wiki features 00:43:44 do they make standalone wikis? or only associated with some project? 00:43:53 ill look into that. could work, since i already pay 00:44:15 yeah, but you could make a project called lispgames-wiki or something. 00:44:42 Not something I've used, so I might be giving a bad suggestion, sorry. 00:45:24 hmm. 00:46:28 -!- abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:46:44 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-194.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:33 -!- nibiru [nibiru@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-crowwutdrwjnhijd] has quit [Quit: :/ ...] 00:48:13 half the time my search ends up on a wiki, it seems to be powered by wikia.com 00:50:31 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:50:48 really? Half the time I search for anything I end up on wikipedia.org. 00:52:03 well, except that one! 00:52:56 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A6A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:53:35 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-suqnwbhpxhrqivuc] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:53:58 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-geoihibnetrxialo] has joined #lisp 00:54:17 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:57:39 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:01:20 kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 01:01:20 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:02:03 abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has joined #lisp 01:03:47 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:53 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:04:03 kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 01:07:26 -!- hadronzoo [~user@24.40.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:07:39 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:03 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12:58 daniel1 [~daniel@187.35.236.156] has joined #lisp 01:13:00 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:13:08 -!- daniel1 is now known as aeouhtns 01:13:44 -!- aeouhtns [~daniel@187.35.236.156] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:09 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 01:18:16 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 01:22:57 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 01:23:33 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:27:57 Is there a reason asdf:*central-registry* should be null on sbcl 1.0.40.7 01:28:29 sdkmvx: yes, 1.0.40 includes ASDF2 01:28:36 sdkmvx: difference between asdf1 and asdf2. 01:28:49 ok that's new 01:28:52 *sdkmvx* googles asdf2 01:29:06 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:29:12 http://l1sp.org/asdf/manual 01:30:39 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has joined #lisp 01:31:34 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:17 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:34:09 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: kpreid_] 01:34:29 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has quit [Client Quit] 01:38:59 -!- abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:39:19 dodge [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/dodge] has joined #lisp 01:39:23 abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has joined #lisp 01:41:31 re 01:42:02 -!- davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:24 aeouidhtns [~daniel@187.35.236.156] has joined #lisp 01:48:50 tayloj1 [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:51 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:50:21 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50:22 xinming [~hyy@115.223.135.182] has joined #lisp 01:50:24 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:54 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:34 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.223.131.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:54:00 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-193-166.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 01:54:23 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:01:12 Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:12 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 02:06:49 davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has joined #lisp 02:13:10 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:13:52 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:54 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:24:38 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:29:06 dodge_ [dodge@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ogabtnighrmwplwk] has joined #lisp 02:30:27 have any of you ever written an object system in lisp just for fun? 02:30:35 knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:36 hi #lisp, i'm having trouble loading a foreign library with cffi under osx and sbcl 1.0.40 -- cffi complains, "no matching architecture in universal wrapper" but that appears to be false. i'll paste some relevant info in a moment. 02:30:59 I guess Sheeple started "for fun", but in the sense of the author writing it for a game engine 02:31:21 http://paste.lisp.org/+2F4Q 02:32:24 <_3b`> you are on x8664, it only has ppc64 and x86? 02:32:48 <_3b`> (and ppc7400, but that looks sufficiently hard to confuse for x8664 to ignore) 02:32:54 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 02:33:11 *sykopomp* ended up working on Sheeple for fun, not so much for the game part. 02:33:59 _3b`: gah. thanks. don't know how i missed that. 02:35:19 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:18 -!- tayloj1 [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:41:46 -!- gonzojive [~red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:48 gonzojive [~red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:45:17 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:08 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:50:35 asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.176] has joined #lisp 02:51:19 -!- dodge [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/dodge] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:57:15 -!- dodge_ is now known as dodge 03:04:02 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:05 steven_t: define 'object system' and 'fun' 03:04:14 *gigamonkey* is a bit late to the party. 03:04:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gnpchsbhwvuvusuz] has joined #lisp 03:04:58 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:09:33 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:09:39 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:40 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:12:19 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:15:30 kpreid_ [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:33 hi gigamonkey are you the guy who runs http://www.gigamonkeys.com/ ? 03:17:38 (bbl sleep) 03:17:40 steven_t: what do you think? 03:17:50 steven_t: yes. 03:18:12 cool, i am reading your stuff. and paul grahams stuff. thanks for your stuff :) 03:18:24 gigamonkey: did you write Practical Common Lisp? 03:18:25 You're welcome! 03:18:28 steven_t: yes. 03:18:46 right on 03:18:52 steven_t: "ANSI Common Lisp" ? 03:19:03 i read the first chapter, totally need to buy that book 03:19:06 *dodge* never read that, what's your take on it? 03:19:18 *steven_t* is being called to bed by an awesome wife 03:19:19 cya 03:19:40 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:20:02 he also wrote "On Lisp", but I think I'd still prefer Practical Common Lisp over either. 03:20:12 *gigamonkey* smiles at dodge 03:20:40 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:19 -!- knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: knuckolls] 03:25:44 scottj [~scott@c-24-10-236-120.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:04 *dodge* thwaps gigamonkey with his book. 03:26:50 -!- abugosh [~Adium@96.241.34.67] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:27:08 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:27:57 hrms 03:29:17 Snamich_ [~Snamich@97-119-20-220.omah.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:49 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@97-119-20-220.omah.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:31:49 -!- Snamich_ is now known as Snamich 03:32:04 -!- dodge [dodge@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ogabtnighrmwplwk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:32:20 dodge_ [dodge@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-wkbeeevjgcmsjzyp] has joined #lisp 03:32:26 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:32:50 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:08 -!- dodge_ is now known as dodge 03:34:53 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:35:38 hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:36:38 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:22 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:42:39 kpreid_ [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:11 -!- davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:59 knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:00 -!- knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:48:50 knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:50 -!- knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:49:53 knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:55 -!- knuckolls [~knuckolls@adsl-177-45-60.mem.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:53 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 03:52:23 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:52:44 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-222-164.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:53:32 Good morning everyone! 03:53:38 Morning. 03:53:45 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:55:29 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:37 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:44 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:59:27 beach: Morning. 04:01:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:44 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:04:02 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 04:04:09 good morning 04:04:19 hey cheese. 04:04:23 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:53 *_3b`* should possibly split the tests into smaller functions, as it is, the test .swf rebooted my n800 04:05:30 <_3b`> (also, it takes way too much time/ram to compile, but i can probably fix at least the ram part) 04:06:32 dodge: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 04:06:34 *_3b`* should probably also reuse 'registers' more, that should help with both problems as well 04:06:59 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:14 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:08 beach: I am :) 04:08:22 dodge: What brings you to #lisp? 04:09:31 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:10:51 -!- herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:10:55 beach: Lisp. 04:11:08 beach: you? 04:11:15 beach lives here. 04:11:17 qbomb [~qbomb@pool5-95.teleclipse.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:21 Getting rid of the linker script for cmucl executables should be a huge win in portability. If it actually works. 04:12:42 dodge: I find it an excellent place to keep in touch with new development, and to bounce ideas on others. 04:12:53 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:14:11 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:59 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.138.195] has joined #lisp 04:18:37 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:54 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:25:00 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.138.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:27 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 04:27:00 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:27:54 Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:55 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.227] has joined #lisp 04:30:45 herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:01 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:45 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:39:03 -!- dodge [dodge@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-wkbeeevjgcmsjzyp] has quit [Changing host] 04:39:03 dodge [dodge@unaffiliated/dodge] has joined #lisp 04:39:03 -!- dodge [dodge@unaffiliated/dodge] has quit [Changing host] 04:39:03 dodge [dodge@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-wkbeeevjgcmsjzyp] has joined #lisp 04:46:33 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:31 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:35 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:42 benny [~user@i577A87FC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:49:27 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-4-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:51:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-84-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:52:50 Man, Lisp is fast. 04:52:57 Compared to Python anyway. 04:53:07 Yeah, yeah, I know--languages aren't fast or slow, just implementations. 04:53:40 you can say Python is fast compared to Python 04:53:52 zing 04:53:54 Some languages seem to be designed to make it hard to write a good compiler. 04:54:05 Python, the compiler, and Python, the language 04:54:28 Is SBCL still considered to be Python (the compiler) based? 04:54:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6486.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:27 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:56:18 vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:56:27 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:57:34 hello 04:57:41 Yo manic12 04:57:45 hello manic12 04:57:48 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:21 manic12: still looking good for a CQ article from Mark. So thanks again. 04:58:46 yeah, Mark is great 04:59:05 stassats: actually, that would be Python is fast compared to CPython :-) 04:59:43 unladen swallow, PyPy/LLVM, Jython and others muddy it a little :D 04:59:45 but only CPython is official 04:59:52 true 05:00:03 Of course there is rpython which is a language that is less impossible to optimize. 05:00:47 Although, lately, I suspect that trace based compilers make much of that irrelevant. 05:00:57 Along with most type system stuff. 05:01:13 And that distributed systems will make the rest of the type system stuff mostly irrelevant as well. 05:01:19 A bit depressing, really. 05:01:32 Zhivago: what about for early error detection?? 05:02:15 that seems to be a bigger appeal to some people than the optimization bit... 05:02:48 Yeah, but you don't need type systems for that. 05:02:59 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:02:59 what do you mean? 05:03:13 Zhivago: I'm curious how you think distributed systems make type system stuff mostly irrelevant 05:03:29 You can just see if it's possible to trace through an error raising operation. 05:03:36 stackless python is another, more efficient fork 05:03:38 If all of your errors are unreachable ... 05:04:26 gigamonkey: I think that most distributed systems will be essentially inconsistent and untrustworthy. 05:04:47 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:57 gigamonkey: That makes type analysis essentialy a waste of time since type analysis requires your assumptions about things to be true. 05:05:05 gigamonkey: ask Mark 05:05:13 Zhivago: wasn't it proven that such a try can lead to infinite loop (so timeouts are kings) and if you reach timeout suddenly you can't prove errorless behaviour? 05:05:42 p_l: What try? 05:06:05 i'm totally lost 05:06:39 If you think about it, distributed systems are the epitome of LSP OOP. 05:06:40 Zhivago: tracing execution paths to find errors, isn't it basically a specific case of halting problem? 05:07:08 p_l: Not in the case that they're all unreachable. 05:07:45 that's a very limited case, though. OTOH, QuickCheck techniques work quite well in Haskell.. 05:08:34 Yeah, but that requires people to essentially do (somewhat half-arsed) proofing. 05:08:59 Which increases cost, and then you have the problem of "did they specify the types properly". 05:09:34 But, why do you think that errors should be reachable in a well formed program? 05:10:40 as for type systems being used to "prove" distributed systems - what if you specify "stable" reactions to errant behaviour of the network? Sure, the network is an unknown, but it's an unknown you can't check exhaustively (catastrophe theory can play with predictions, but it's not rigid enough for that) 05:10:51 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:12:17 Zhivago: maybe I'm considering "errors" to be much bigger set. As for error reachability, what I meant is that tracing to find the error might end up in an endless loop that *isn't* an error 05:12:27 p_l: You have to validate all of the data from the network. 05:12:48 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@pool5-95.teleclipse.net] has left #lisp 05:12:49 p_l: Once you do that, your type system is only operating on local information. 05:13:16 Zhivago: I'm reminded in those cases of Erlang-style behaviour: Expect failure and add local response to failure 05:13:45 And expecting failure means expecting invalid data. 05:14:19 At any point where you expect invalid input your type-system stops working. 05:14:29 -!- oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:14:45 You are forced to degrate to using types that operate on invalid data, then validating that, and then you can tighten them up. 05:14:48 the use of type system and proofing is then in establishing stable reactions to such cases (i.e. not interpreting faulty data assuming it's correct leading to weird crashes) 05:15:09 Which means that you're not going to be able to use the type system to deal with things on the other side of the connection. 05:15:19 (Which makes it essentially non-distributed) 05:15:42 oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:04 Unless you model failure cases in a global model... but that's no longer area of type systems, that's entering fields of probability and catastrophe theory :D 05:16:09 Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:16:26 Sure. 05:16:44 (which, btw, I might get to work on, since my father's old PhD advisor is pressuring him into writing a habilitation paper) 05:17:08 Anyhow, it seems to me that distribution and the 'proving the proof' problems impose very real practical limits on the utility of type systems. 05:17:12 when using sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die, what's a usual practice for not letting the toplevel function die? (what could one wait on and make it useful too)? 05:17:14 and I'm handily available to code the necessary computation :/ 05:17:17 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-222-164.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:17:35 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:17:43 Zhivago: not really, depends on how you use the type system and how well designed (and extensible) it is. 05:18:08 No. it doesn't. 05:20:10 (Which is kind of the point) 05:20:41 At some point the cost of determining that the proof is the right proof increases to the point where it isn't worth doing any more. 05:20:51 true 05:20:57 And the other limits are imposed by exposure to unreliable systems. 05:21:01 the art is in finding balance 05:21:12 Think about the effect of cosmic rays on type system logic ... 05:21:27 Mostly we get away with ignoring these things in small systems, but ... 05:23:26 Okay guys, so in a few days I'm going to be announcing a Code Quarterly programing contest/shootout. I'm counting on lots of good Lisp entries. 05:23:33 Zhivago: well, I can talk to a friend of mine about his experiences doing distributed systems in haskell (and dealing with wildly different DHCP clients in Haskell)... he is rather good with the approach, might offer real-life experience which I can't. 05:23:36 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:23:55 gigamonkey: what type of contest, what kind of tasks etc.? 05:25:01 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:44 p_l: I'm going to provide spec for a medium-sized bit of code--a parser for a text language similar to Markdown or ReStructuredText. 05:25:59 It's Markup, which I used to write my two books. 05:26:33 I've implemented it a half-dozen times myself and know that there's nothing terribly hard about it but it's just complicated enough that it requires some good style to not make a mess of it. 05:26:53 p_l: Here's an interesting question -- what happens in a statically typed system when a cosmic ray flips some bits in a word that you use? 05:27:03 The thing for CQ, is I'll accept entries in any language and style of programming and then will write an article comparing some of the best ones. (And probably put them all up on the web site.) 05:27:24 Zhivago: what happens to a trace system? 05:27:47 Zhivago: btw, regarding dealing with unreliable data - Mongrel had quite an interesting story about that. Its HTTP support is a giant Finite State Machine and supposedly it found more errors in HTTP implementations than the author ever suspected. 05:28:08 Zhivago: catastrophic failure, I guess, if ECC doesn't catch it. 05:28:34 hadronzoo [~user@24.40.129.231] has joined #lisp 05:28:47 p_l: Unless it just changes 57 to 102132143, for example. 05:29:05 p_l: But yeah, catestrophic failure or silent invariation violation. 05:29:45 Zhivago: funnily enough, a slightly similar case is described in some old advice on writing networked applications/protocols 05:29:46 sykopomp: It depends, but there are more tests to see if you're getting off trace. 05:29:53 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:29:56 Sure, checksums are a similar deal. 05:29:59 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:25 Zhivago: one of the routers had an issue that flipped some bits in certain cases, leading to corrupted transfers because the software believed in TCP checksumming 05:30:26 It comes down to the point at which you just say "to hell with it, I'm going to pretend that this system is reliable". 05:30:42 Yeah, and you don't have checksums between the segments. 05:30:58 But even with checksums you can get errors that go through once you start dealing with large amounts of data. 05:31:02 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-azqwlwswwxhhgdvc] has joined #lisp 05:31:51 anyway, when it comes to "reliable" systems, Erlang guys had some interesting sayings, including the hard truth that "it will fail and the only thing you can do is some defensive programming" 05:32:09 Once you accept that your components are largely unreliable you end up needing to do things like analysis to see if your results look reasonable. 05:32:33 Monitoring the system for unusual behaviours. 05:32:34 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 05:32:56 Zhivago: that's where catastrophe theory comes in 05:33:01 So my expectation is that things like type systems will essentially be limited to regions like lexical scoping is. 05:33:15 it's about modeling stuff that includes "someone tripped over a cable" 05:33:39 Zhivago: type systems are useful *parts* of a bigger reliability modeling system 05:33:55 the same for static analysis of code 05:34:39 (which was already tried on few quite big chunks of software, I recall some company making several patches to Linux kernel after using it to test their software) 05:35:01 (that is, their static analysis package) 05:35:23 it's one of the uses of LLVM, for example 05:36:20 p_l: Only if you trust the systems to be as you've analyzed them. 05:36:33 p_l: The more you trust, the more vulnerable you become. 05:37:32 Zhivago: anyone who believes in 100% reliability is an idiot, and the analysis should include *probability*, not assurance that "this won't fail" 05:38:27 The thing is that hw errors are way more catastrophic and much less probable than software errors, so just using proof-by-typing decreases probability of crash 05:39:03 -!- prip [~foo@host97-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:39:05 the higher the degree of reliability is needed, the more crazy checks are done, on all parts of systems 05:39:29 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 05:39:43 the probability of bit-flipping causing catastrophic failure of strongly-typed redundant system is lower than getting hit by stray rocket 05:40:15 (not to mention getting hit by a bird and crashing to death) 05:41:58 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has left #lisp 05:42:26 Question: Some GUI toolkits (in Java) have the concept of a "layout manager", whereas CLIM uses subclasses of panes for different layouts. Is it useful for the layout to be encapsulated in a different object, or was it done this way because Java doesn't allow multiple inheritance? 05:42:38 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:43:06 morning lispers 05:43:15 hello kiuma 05:44:03 beach: I think there's a bigger possibilty that it's because of lack of easy&reliable mixins 05:44:04 p_l: Static type system people must believe in 100% reliability. 05:44:04 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-254-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:44:41 Actually, hw errors are pretty common. 05:44:44 Zhivago: ... wtf? Maybe some zealots and misunderstood academics 05:44:57 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-254-143.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:45:30 Zhivago: they are common, true, but common enough in the area that will hit your application through bit-flipping instead of "system crashed because PCI Chipset started running mad"? 05:45:33 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-222-164.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:46:18 http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2009/10/dram-study-turns-assumptions-about-errors-upside-down.ars 05:46:29 If your application runs long enough, yeah. 05:46:44 Though I'll admit that I had some errors that were close to bit-flipping (I still don't know how hard-drive could just move addressing by one sector) 05:46:58 prip [~foo@host97-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:47:03 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-90.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:48:28 As for the study... I wonder how much the error rate increased due to denser packing 05:50:18 *p_l* if he could, would ensure that all his machines were running with ECC. 05:50:47 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-128-224.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:51:54 I recall a story where a company (that had no on-site sysadmin) called a tech for some minor update work. The guy checked the logs and found *LOTS* of ECC-corrected errors, but ECC managed to hold enough that the system didn't crash (afaik memory was declared "bad" and OS stopped allocating that area) 05:52:25 minor update changed to memory replacement/upgrade :) 05:52:41 p_l: Thanks! 05:52:47 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:54:20 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has left #lisp 05:54:35 beach: some decisions might also depend on design of the library - I recall that VCL greatly favored absolute layout and thus simply coded positions of objects into datafile 05:55:08 GTK keeps layouts as containers (and I think Qt as well). Neither use multiple inheritance (or at least very sparingly) 05:55:43 Yeah, I am beginning to believe that this is a way of getting around the lack of multiple inheritance. 05:55:54 alrighty folks. I have a lisp image that has clsql + clsql-odbc pre-loaded. When I restart the core file, the clsql package complains about an invalid handle. (handle in question is ODBC:%NEW-DB-CONNECTION-HANDLE). What is one to do? 05:55:59 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:16 beach: or maybe some inane idea that sounded right around Java 1.0 05:57:49 <_3b`> Shaftoe_: make sure all connections are closed before saving image? 05:57:51 and Java is chock full of such "implementation left as exercise to the developer" details 05:58:10 I see. 05:58:13 _3b`: it's done. I actually close my connections. And then on rewake, I call clsql:connect, which is when this occurs 05:58:14 l 05:58:49 <_3b`> Shaftoe_: or possibly avoid opening any connections before saving the image 05:58:52 (a combined pane/container class is *very* easy, no multiple-inheritance involved, since I believe the API is done through interfaces anyway) 05:59:15 _3b`: I'm going to try testing that right now. 05:59:37 <_3b`> Shaftoe_: otherwise, i'd guess dig in the source and see what it should be reinitialized to before save/on load 05:59:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 06:00:00 beach: remember that Java is the language where normal "open a file for reading without being dog slow" takes >=3 LOC 06:00:39 (till you get an idea to wrap it somehow) 06:00:40 ok. on a related note. how do I turn the top level function in the core into a repl proper (that doesn't just quit unless told to) 06:00:41 ? 06:01:14 Shaftoe_: have it run in a loop? 06:02:17 p_l: hmm. If you mean a loop as in the L in REPL, yes, that's my goal. If you mean a tight loop, then I'm not sure I'm following you 06:02:20 <_3b`> (sb-impl::toplevel-repl nil) ? 06:02:25 ah ha 06:03:36 _3b`: that does exactly what I needed. did you know that one before hand or did you just dig that up right now? 06:04:22 <_3b`> i dug it up last time i wanted to do that, just had to figure out which program it was in 06:04:32 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 06:04:55 another good idea is prepl package, which includes some basic line editing and helper commands 06:06:36 _3b`: thanks 06:06:50 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 06:09:25 jtza8 [~AndChat@wbs-41-208-221-101.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:11:37 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 06:11:39 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-150-194.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:17:07 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:52 <_3b`> beach: should sicl cons-high.lisp have an eval-when on mapcar? 06:18:53 -!- scottj [~scott@c-24-10-236-120.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:19:14 whoever it was the other day that doing some thing (unorthodox) would "result in tears". I don't know who it was but I am growing ever more fond of that statement =) 06:20:43 _3b`: You think so? Where is it used? 06:20:52 <_3b`> beach: pushnew i think 06:21:00 Ah, that's possible. 06:21:07 Sure, I'll have a look. 06:21:08 christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:12 tcr1 [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has joined #lisp 06:21:35 *beach* takes off for work. 06:21:45 *_3b`* wonders if (setf (getf 3 ...)) not complaining is something in sicl or my compiler (or setf macro) 06:22:28 <_3b`> (getf 3 ...) complains 06:22:34 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:23:24 vtz [~user@client-73-37-12.speedy-net.bg] has joined #lisp 06:24:08 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:25:23 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:26:05 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:54 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:27:33 _3b`: Well, I've solved my problem partly: never opening a db connection makes life better. 06:27:40 <_3b`> i guess it isn't specified what get-setf-expansion should do when you pass it something that isn't a place 06:28:08 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 06:31:52 -!- sad0ur [~sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:51 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:33:22 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:25 *_3b`* adds an error to my get-setf-expansion for that case, so (setf (getf 3 ...)) complains on my compiler too 06:38:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gnpchsbhwvuvusuz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:38:04 what does it mean when I try to setf a class allocated slot and I get a slot missing from object condition? 06:38:37 it means I'm not using package names. =) 06:38:40 nevahmind 06:38:56 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 06:42:08 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:42:46 I so love it when things just work. It's a rare treat that makes me go on in the midst of all the not-working chaos 06:43:26 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:43:31 *_3b`* adds 8 passing tests, wonders if i should back out the change they are supposed to test to verify they fail without it 06:44:40 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:45:14 *_3b`* decides that would be a good excuse to sit around avoiding thinking/working while waiting for build 06:46:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-131-96.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 06:47:39 <_3b`> doh, they still pass 06:47:47 sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:38 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:50:04 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-azqwlwswwxhhgdvc] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:57:04 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:07 -!- Tanami [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:00:38 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:03:23 _3b`: you're maintaining sbcl, if I remember correctly, right? 07:03:59 <_3b`> Shaftoe_: nope 07:04:18 he shoots and he misses. I have terrible memory. 07:04:19 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 07:04:26 <_3b`> working on my own toy compiler 07:04:38 ah. cl, I Take it? 07:04:41 <_3b`> (through breaking sbcl in the process once in a while) 07:04:44 <_3b`> something like that 07:04:49 hah 07:04:54 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:13 I'm sure whatever heresy it is your hiding will totally not impress me. I am a tabula rasa. =) 07:05:15 <_3b`> not likely to be actual cl any time soon, but i try to keep the subset of code that works on both as large as is convenient 07:05:28 oh. so it's just l? 07:05:54 <_3b`> more a question of unfinished than not trying to be CL (aside from a few areas) 07:06:07 what about clos&mop? 07:06:51 <_3b`> higher priority than CL numeric stack, lower than specials 07:06:57 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ggviomkngxpubdmj] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:07:15 <_3b`> will sort of depend on how hard it looks once i get to that point, though i would like clos if possible 07:07:49 i guess AMOP will be helpful in that respect 07:07:55 <_3b`> possibly 07:08:08 *stassats* is trying to use MOP without reading AMOP 07:08:30 -!- ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 07:09:27 except for the specification at alu.org 07:09:43 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 07:10:42 <_3b`> well, i guess at least the stuff i'm trying to test is actually getting used, so the tests working with or without the code being tested is still a positive sign 07:11:21 AMOP is one of those books that I will read the moment I have two seconds of *true* leisure time. Not leisure time I feel has to be well spent because I don't have any otherwise. 07:11:29 hopefully within a couple of years 07:12:14 i believe AMOP is worth reading if you want to better understand CLOS & MOP better 07:12:42 now that i have a grasp of MOP, i guess it will be easier to read it 07:12:58 oh, I agree with that entirely. However, I just can't justify it professionally just yet. 07:13:11 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-222-164.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 07:13:13 -!- vtz [~user@client-73-37-12.speedy-net.bg] has left #lisp 07:13:13 (iow, I don't *need* to better understand CLOS& MOP yet) 07:13:49 it doesn't mean I don't want to 07:14:07 hmm... 07:14:33 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-isyorqkljwddowok] has joined #lisp 07:14:51 *p_l* ponders a non-Closette, non-PCL CLOS&MOP implementation, written specifically for the implementation it runs on... 07:15:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:48 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-15-88.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:57 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:22:08 p_l: I believe there are at least three of those: clisp's, scieneer's and ccl's 07:22:18 oh and lisp500's :-) 07:22:31 (yes, lisp500 has most of a full MOP) 07:22:40 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-39-29.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:23:08 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-84-40.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:41 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-33.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:26 *_3b`* wonders if sicl format would compile 07:27:31 ... wow 07:28:10 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:40 <_3b`> i suppose i could try its LOOP too 07:29:39 <_3b`> ah, i guess format wants specials 07:30:21 Tanami [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 07:30:47 <_3b`> not sure if the CLOS stuff would all get compiled away by the compiler macro or not either 07:31:57 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-241-210.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:34:30 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-193-166.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:35:44 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:36:34 sykopomp: who was it that maintains paktahn, again? 07:36:37 er 07:36:44 anyone? 07:37:16 <_3b`> i guess READ needs specials as well 07:39:36 _3b`: I was under impression that dynamic scope was default in JS (and thus Action Script)? 07:40:17 <_3b`> p_l: it is a bit more confused at the VM level, and i'm not sure AS actually uses dynamic scope 07:40:19 -!- debes [~debes@212.126.215.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:40:22 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 07:40:22 _3b`: What do you mean by "SICL format would compile"? 07:40:42 <_3b`> (and either way, i have everything set up to use lexical scope) 07:40:47 <_3b`> spiaggia: on my compiler 07:40:54 Ah, ok. 07:41:20 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:41:36 <_3b`> spiaggia: i added setf-expanders.lisp, and they at least didn't break anything in the tests 07:41:42 _3b`: iirc AS3 allowed "plain" JS behaviour, the weird new stuff only happened if you used the more Java-like elements (and affected mainly those) 07:41:53 <_3b`> spiaggia: the tests i added to try to test them worked even without though 07:42:35 <_3b`> p_l: i think it is sort of the other way around, in that the intended use is the strictly typed stuff, with classes and namespaces and syigg 07:42:37 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:42:55 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 07:43:26 <_3b`> p_l: and at the VM level, i'm just accessing locals/registers, unless i actively search the scope stack for a name 07:43:55 <_3b`> which if i wasn't trying to maintain interop with normal AS3 code, would possibly work for specials 07:44:27 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:44:32 <_3b`> but gets more complicated with closures and methods, since they get their own scope stack rather than having one passed as an argument (or something like that) 07:44:32 _3b`: well, the info I found about AS3 suggested that JS was the base, but you're the expert here... I only ponder about using SACLA in future :) 07:45:00 _3b`: I am not sure what tests you are referring to. Your own tests of your system? 07:45:34 <_3b`> spiaggia: right 07:46:55 ecraven [~nex@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 07:50:04 <_3b`> spiaggia: http://3bb.cc/tmp/ctests.swf is it if you are bored 07:50:55 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:50 debes [~debes@212.126.215.62] has joined #lisp 07:52:56 <_3b`> or if anyone else wants to test it, particularly people with mac or old flash (v9 or later), not recommended for low ram systems though 07:53:28 <_3b`> should look like http://paste.lisp.org/display/112925 07:54:11 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:54:11 It displayed fine here. 07:56:44 *_3b`* should probably move the stuff that passes now out of the expected-fail and expected-error groups at some point 07:59:21 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:00:00 xan_ [~xan@145.52.240.210] has joined #lisp 08:00:28 -!- deepfire 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[~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 08:32:40 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 08:34:14 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:34:15 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 08:38:01 -!- aeouidhtns [~daniel@187.35.236.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:38:15 ASau [~user@77.246.230.215] has joined #lisp 08:42:07 sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:10 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:26 good morning 08:45:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ggviomkngxpubdmj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:45:58 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:49:44 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:52:11 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has 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[~juan@mobile-166-137-137-247.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:08 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 09:39:58 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:42:03 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:42:13 -!- sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has quit [Quit: sellout] 09:42:55 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:02 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:44:20 Is there a way to have any information about the position in the stream during a LOAD ? For example, (FILE-POSITION stream) would probably point to the closing paren of the evaluated form, but is there more than that ? What I am looking for is the position of the opening paren. 09:44:22 sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #lisp 09:44:39 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 09:46:02 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 09:46:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@62.140.137.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:46:49 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:51 -!- vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 09:49:05 vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:51:15 you have been banned from #lisp 09:52:23 please find another crutch for your antisocial behavior 09:53:55 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:54:31 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:55:44 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:57:03 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 09:57:47 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-84-40.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:01:11 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 10:01:22 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:03:23 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:04:03 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:04:20 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:06:07 kuwabara: there's nothing portably, other than implementing your own load. 10:06:56 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:08:25 F 10:09:27 fisxoj [~fisxoj@145.52.240.72] has joined #lisp 10:09:29 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:12:47 -!- dodge [dodge@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-wkbeeevjgcmsjzyp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:16 pjb: thanks 10:14:06 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:14:43 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@145.52.240.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:15:13 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:16 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:37 fisxoj [~fisxoj@145.52.240.72] has joined #lisp 10:15:58 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 10:17:19 -!- hadronzoo [~user@24.40.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:17:30 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:31 -!- sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has quit [Quit: sellout] 10:17:43 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 10:18:09 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 10:20:49 homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has joined #lisp 10:22:00 -!- homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has quit [Client Quit] 10:22:04 kuwabara: you might have some chance by modifying SICL source code (warning, it isn't a complete implementation of reader yet, and then you'd have to somehow fill it into your implementation of choice) 10:22:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:23:57 homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has joined #lisp 10:25:58 pjb: did you read the make-socket code ? 10:27:56 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:28:24 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest93598 10:29:19 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:32:55 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:20 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:33:34 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@145.52.240.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:33:47 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:35:03 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:49 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 10:39:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-131-96.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:04 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nhdajnicpckbuzvp] has joined #lisp 10:40:22 tcr [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has joined #lisp 10:42:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-131-96.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:56:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:56:37 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:57:39 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:24 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:23 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@wbs-41-208-221-101.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:02:48 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:06:23 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:09:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:54 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:09:58 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-241-210.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:10:27 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-193-209.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:12:08 jtza8 [~AndChat@wbs-41-208-221-101.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:12:19 I'm planning to start develop a prototype search engine for searching binary files. Do you recommend Drakma, UnCommon Web, Hunchentoot or CL-HTTP for the development of indexing and crawling parts? The framework should support HTTP 1.1. 11:13:02 peterhil: I don't think it matters much. 11:13:06 The last two are also web servers, but how well do they fit http-client program development 11:13:11 peterhil: You could also use sb-ext:run-program "curl" 11:13:16 Well, what do you prefer and why 11:13:35 I need more complicated fetching of files... 11:13:51 peterhil: I think you probably have bigger design issues than 'which HTTP library.' 11:13:53 I use drakma for my Amazon S3 library. 11:14:19 I use it because it works and provides incremental request construction (helpful for uploading a 1GB file without loading it all in memory) 11:14:44 for quicklisp, i rolled my own client because i needed more portability and fewer dependencies 11:15:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:15:47 Ok, thanks. 11:17:50 Doesn't Drakma support partial downloads ie. byte ranges? 11:17:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:19:00 RaLith: Guess so. I don't think the indexing etc. will be easy. 11:20:10 Xach: Never mind the previous question about Drakma and byte ranges... I was eating, and didn't re-read what you wrote. 11:22:02 RaLith: I do have a very simple but clever idea for indexing the binary files, though. But the text stuff is going to be hard. :-) 11:22:40 well, text indexing is a solved problem, at least on the middle scale 11:23:26 Yes, but deciding *what* to index and collecting metadata is not entirely solved... 11:25:30 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:25:30 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-193-209.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:32 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-180-93.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:28:05 hadronzoo [~user@64.134.183.27] has joined #lisp 11:29:39 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:30:25 antoni [~user@108.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:30 -!- antoni [~user@108.Red-88-7-133.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:45 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:33:24 -!- hadronzoo [~user@64.134.183.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34:10 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:33 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.47.155] has joined #lisp 11:37:01 Of course a page-rank style algorithm will help. But I'm not going to index full web pages of text, unless they are books, tutorials, references or manuals etc. So the problem is to decide what parts are important for metadata about files. 11:39:28 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.223.135.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:40:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-131-96.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:40:53 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:41:16 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:41:37 -!- homie [91fd03c5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:26 What do you think of the idea generally, btw? 11:44:26 seems like it wouldn't be useful to many 11:44:36 though if it works people'll probably come up with some very clever uses 11:45:08 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:46:13 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:46:34 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:33 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:49:12 Well, I didn't mention that you could specify what kind of files you want to search. For example "vector graphics program" for "Linux on PPC64 architecture". Or "Illustrations of musical notes" in some (or specific) vector graphics format. Or "Bach" in Ogg or FLAC format. 11:49:25 Probably yes, they will. 11:50:39 so basically you're cloning Spotlight? 11:50:54 Or "Mongolian font" in "OpenType" format. 11:50:59 oh, web indexing, nevermind 11:51:06 Well, there is a lot of similarity 11:51:14 ... but for the web. 11:51:16 :-) 11:51:51 natural language search of symbolic content? 11:52:06 peterhil: your examples look strangely legal wrt copyright laws 11:52:41 That's actually exactly why I got the idea.... I read about the Pirate Bay court decision. :-) 11:53:04 be careful of offending the notoriously litigious font people, though 11:53:09 ost: the market for searching for illicit binary content is pretty well nailed down already :P 11:53:20 I thought, why there are not so many legal uses for similar techinques? 11:53:25 rsynnott_: nah; google doesn't violate copyright 11:53:40 rsynnott_: if they bitch, they can bitch at the people who got spidered. 11:54:17 Ralith: That's a good point. Index of content is not the content. 11:54:44 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:55:10 peterhil: indeed; you're not doing anything new in a legal sense, afaict. 11:55:33 metasyntax [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 11:56:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:41 And I haven't this idea done, although there are some search engines for Windows executables, Versiontracker, Download.com etc... And some Russian FTP search engine 11:57:56 ...haven't seen... 11:58:30 peterhil: I presume you're familiar with the *nix file command's implementation? 11:58:42 I could even provide some measure of authenticity for the files. 11:58:47 Ralith: I am... 11:58:55 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn84.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:05 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:38 kk 12:00:00 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:02:00 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@wbs-41-208-221-101.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:44 jtza8 [~AndChat@wbs-41-208-221-101.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:02:50 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:13 minion: xyzzy 12:03:15 xyzzy: XYZZY is the buddy of PLUGH. http://www.cliki.net/xyzzy 12:04:42 sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #lisp 12:05:03 *jtza8* had to see what would happen. 12:05:36 hello , sombody working with weblocks and gbbopen? 12:06:57 minion: feedface 12:06:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``feedface''. 12:07:17 Well, now you can easily guess the basic idea. 12:10:42 Yeah, just thought there might be something special in there for xyzzy. You know, like an Easter egg. 12:13:02 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 12:13:28 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has left #lisp 12:13:41 I want to compile a program which has variable which will have a different value at runtime, but which generates an error at compile time. how do I declare it? 12:14:59 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:15:07 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:39 cisticola: use pastebin so we can see the program :P 12:16:56 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D81B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:09 http://paste.lisp.org is a bit better for lisp 12:17:10 davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has joined #lisp 12:22:34 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:25:29 -!- Guest93598 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:26:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:26:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:28:42 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-137-247.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:28:42 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:29:32 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:30:26 aeouidhtns [~daniel@187.10.43.201] has joined #lisp 12:31:23 cisticola: (defparameter *my-var* ) 12:31:37 cisticola: Then at runtime (setf *my-var* ) 12:31:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:28 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 12:32:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:32:35 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has joined #lisp 12:32:37 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:45 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has joined #lisp 12:36:46 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: family camp] 12:38:05 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 12:38:41 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:48 Guthur [~michael@86.148.29.214] has joined #lisp 12:43:25 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:45:12 carlocci [~nes@93.37.220.223] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:46:13 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 12:46:32 xan_ [~xan@145.52.240.210] has joined #lisp 12:48:11 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has joined #lisp 12:48:28 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:42 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has joined #lisp 12:49:03 Shiva [~shiva@unaffiliated/shiva] has joined #lisp 12:50:00 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:53:35 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.57.190] has joined #lisp 12:53:35 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.57.190] has quit [Changing host] 12:53:35 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:53:44 gonna write a awesome client API in lisp, yes, that means writing lua in lisp :P so what should I call it? cl-awesome or cl-awesome-client, or something else even?? 12:54:04 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@c3po.streamtech.nl] has joined #lisp 12:54:42 client for what? 12:55:21 rsynnott_: awesome 12:55:29 aweome-client, as in, awesome client 12:55:46 it'll use trivial-shell to execute awesome-client commands 12:55:58 what is awesome, I can't just google a word like that 12:56:06 which let's you execute lua into the current awesome image 12:56:09 a window manager 12:56:16 ah 12:56:16 very popular, in case you didn't know :P 12:56:21 never heard of it 12:56:38 http://thefacepalm.net/screenshots/current.png 12:57:23 looks like another wmii 12:57:33 it's sorta like it 12:57:34 or whichever of those minimalist ones were 12:57:38 the original 12:57:46 there's many 12:57:56 even on written in lisp, stumpwm 12:58:00 zc00gii: If you want to be all lispy, just use stumpwm :P 12:58:02 think ratpoison is too 12:58:12 i like his 8 irssi channels 12:58:13 sellout: I've tried it 12:58:16 gotta be distracting as fuck 12:58:16 I don't like it 12:58:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@145.52.240.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:20 pardon my french 12:58:23 OliverUv_: mine? 12:58:27 I'm in more then that 12:58:29 I never liked rtorrent 12:58:31 and it's not irssi 12:58:33 zc00gii: that your setup? 12:58:37 I use erc 12:58:45 oh 12:58:45 rtorrent? where do you see that? 12:58:45 zc00gii: No, ratpoison is C  the author wrote stumpwm after because he was frustrated with C. 12:58:50 never heard of erc either 12:58:54 sellout: oh, heh 12:58:58 zc00gii: lower left 12:59:09 that's a terminal? 12:59:33 oops! I was looking at this photo http://awesome.naquadah.org/images/6mon.medium.png 12:59:41 oh 12:59:42 heh 13:00:15 OliverUv_: I'm oin like 30 channels, btw 13:00:17 in* 13:00:26 :/ 13:01:17 awesome does look like the best of the minimalist clients out there, from looking at their about page 13:01:27 it's pretty nice 13:01:45 *zc00gii* names it cl-awesome 13:01:48 sounds cool :P 13:01:50 I see cortex there. 13:01:52 vimperator. 13:02:01 probably reddit. 13:02:06 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:02:15 wikipedia, emacs/magit. 13:02:27 hmm, a monitor just for htop? 13:02:36 asarch [~asarch@187.132.136.243] has joined #lisp 13:02:43 magit is awesome 13:04:16 OliverUv_: it's like what the 70s thought a windowing system would be! 13:04:25 Yes. 13:04:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:52 zc00gii: It should just be "clawsome", and have a logo with a big claw on it. 13:06:21 sellout: I already made the repo cl-awesome 13:06:35 (I don't know if the 'e' should be dropped or not  anyone have more marketing experience) ;) 13:06:53 I like your big hyphen, I don't have one 13:06:58 *zc00gii* only has a little - 13:07:05 _ 13:07:07 sellout: your idea is the best 13:07:09 clawesome 13:07:11 and your little underscore 13:07:12 THE CLAW 13:07:17 -!- vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:07:47 -!- OliverUv_ is now known as OliverUv 13:07:53 . 13:07:55 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:08:06 zc00gii: -   three dashes! And for good measure, a ±. 13:08:35   13:08:40 you also have that :P 13:08:49 mine's a big _ 13:09:06  _ 13:09:12 kinda looks funny :P 13:09:30  _  :D 13:10:15 -!- Shiva [~shiva@unaffiliated/shiva] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:40 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:15:26 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Quit: Segfault at ircc: core dumped.] 13:18:05 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 13:20:15 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-15-88.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:19 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-76.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:21:23 xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.31] has joined #lisp 13:23:59 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.47.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:24:26 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:25:10 uhm 13:25:27 easy way to replace certain parts of a string? 13:25:37 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 13:26:10 with what? 13:26:11 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:26:26 stassats: say, replace ( with \( 13:26:43 -!- gnooth [~test@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:26:48 Looking for a quick bit of advice on Clim programming 13:26:55 zc00gii: no easy way that i know of 13:27:14 Right onw I'm priting a table of things, and would like to also print a background for that table (just a rectangle) 13:27:16 i'd use cl-ppcre 13:27:22 how to best accomplish this? 13:27:39 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has left #lisp 13:28:12 stassats: good idea 13:29:39 -!- oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:29:54 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:02 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:30:45 oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:12 For tables where the size will be known this is pretty easy, but the contents of the table decide the size 13:31:31 is there a way to say, for example, "fill this clipping area with this color, and put a line around it" 13:32:02 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 13:32:15 can't you just choose background colour of your text? 13:32:16 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:47 or clim doesn't have such concept, i don't remember 13:33:10 Well, I want the entire table to have a background colour, not just the cells 13:33:12 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.12.175] has joined #lisp 13:34:09 to make just a background I guess I could draw a rectangle from 0,0 to 100000,100000 13:34:28 but I also want to make a border, which requires me to draw a non-filled rectangle of a correct size 13:35:32 Joreji [~thomas@90-208.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:36:31 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:37:19 found the functions medium-clipping-region, I think I can call that on the sheet I'm drawing on to get the current constraints 13:37:22 gonna check it 13:39:08 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:09 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:40:11 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:20 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45:59 fisxoj [~fisxoj@145.52.240.72] has joined #lisp 13:48:34 oh my, tables with backgrounds 13:48:44 OliverUv: I haven't found a good way to do them in CLIM yet 13:49:09 in classic clim, there's a workaround based on an output record move hook that gets called at the appropriate time 13:49:11 buuuut 13:49:17 I don't think this is advisable 13:49:34 beach might know how to do them correctly (: 13:49:54 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-84-40.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:10 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:52:36 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:36 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn84.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 13:53:11 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 13:53:35 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 13:53:46 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:53:57 *sellout* has a feeling that beach is gone on his French vacation month. 13:54:25 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@145.52.240.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:54:27 this is why I am not entirely satisfied with CLIM. The people who specified it did so at a time when things that we today consider extremely common use cases were not even known 13:54:44 so things like these haven't been implemented 13:54:58 I think I'll just give up on the background thing and let my app be butt-ugly 13:55:33 that'll fit in well with the rest of the overall impression the students get when they sit down at the lab computers 13:56:18 five year old version of Gnome, completely outdated editor versions, and shitty Solaris thin clients and all 13:57:43 current red hat? 13:57:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-208.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:57:58 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:00:20 Heh, nope, real Solaris 14:00:30 from like 2001 14:01:22 actually, I just ssh:ed in and checked 14:01:23 Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.10 Generic January 2005 14:01:54 but yeah, the admins are lazy as fuck - even though I understand the "don't fix it if it ain't broken" attitude 14:02:06 I consider the 2005 state of gnome broken compared to the current state 14:03:17 i cant wait to learn lisp 14:03:27 me too 14:04:03 CL, not scheme 14:04:07 Shiva [~root@unaffiliated/shiva] has joined #lisp 14:04:35 it seeems ive been moving in the direction of lisp for a while now.. i started with ObjC, then learned Python, then Ruby 14:05:06 steven_t: I don't get it. 14:05:13 thats ok 14:05:31 What do ObjC, Python and Ruby have in common with Lisp? 14:06:06 each language progressively gets closer and closer to lisp in terms of features and functionality 14:06:24 so faraway, so close 14:06:50 i dun get it 14:07:21 vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:08:16 -!- jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:42 -!- Shiva [~root@unaffiliated/shiva] has left #lisp 14:09:58 Joreji [~thomas@90-208.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:10:18 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A6B15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:23 phear [~root@unaffiliated/phear] has joined #lisp 14:20:13 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:21:33 -!- davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:18 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23:40 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:25:07 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 14:25:41 jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 14:25:46 3b here? 14:29:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:42 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 14:32:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nhdajnicpckbuzvp] has left #lisp 14:32:29 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 14:34:02 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:02 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:01 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:35:09 fe[nl]ix: yes, I wanted to check that make-socket did indeed bind and listen. 14:36:42 milanj [~milanj_@109.92.114.220] has joined #lisp 14:36:45 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:37:03 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:16 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 14:39:38 xan_ [~xan@145.52.240.210] has joined #lisp 14:40:20 fgtech^ [~federico@host226-156-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:40:40 -!- phear is now known as phear_ 14:40:44 -!- phear_ is now known as phear 14:40:52 <_3b> manic12: am now 14:43:44 -!- phear [~root@unaffiliated/phear] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:43:49 gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 14:44:53 phear [~user@unaffiliated/phear] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:46:19 jbd [~user@67-198-71-121.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 how can I find out exactly what caused a SIMPLE-ERROR condition? 14:47:14 <_3b> do you have a backtrace? 14:47:23 yes 14:47:46 it's not helping 14:47:51 <_3b> if you are in slime, try hitting v on the frames of the backtrace 14:47:59 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:06 <_3b> if you compiled with highe enough debug settings, it should be able to find the form 14:48:23 knob [~anon@adsl-64-237-162-31.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:27 Hello everyone =) 14:49:11 <_3b> (or if you didn't and the error is easily reproduced, recompile the functions in the backtrace with higher debug, with C-u C-c C-c or C-u C-c C-k for example) 14:49:35 <_3b> and if you aren't in slime, the same applies but you have to do it all by hand :/ 14:49:49 <_3b> well, except the v part, that will depend on which lisp you use 14:49:59 _3b: i'll try that, thanks 14:50:25 jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has joined #lisp 14:50:56 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-isyorqkljwddowok] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:51:10 <_3b> another popular strategy is 'look at the backtrace, look at the code, think real hard' :) 14:51:34 already tried that :) 14:52:51 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f650.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:47 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:54:15 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest74579 14:55:15 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:56:12 what I usually do is starting to do the refactoring and cleanup I already wanted to do, and then in a sudden the error comes obvious at some point :P 14:56:52 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Meep.] 14:58:27 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:28 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:59:05 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-253-194.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:43 pjb: any comments about the code ? 15:02:03 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:06 -!- sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has quit [Quit: sellout] 15:03:12 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-84-40.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:04:05 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:04:12 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.202.17.141] has joined #lisp 15:04:15 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:05:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:05:34 -!- gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 15:05:48 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:10 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:07:48 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:28 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:11:14 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:34 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:02 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:12 fe[nl]ix: nothing special. It's well done. 15:14:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:57 -!- Guest74579 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:15:21 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:16 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:40 Kenjin [~josesanto@95.69.42.232] has joined #lisp 15:19:01 fe[nl]ix: one thing. check-bound uses length, but I hoped to be able to write in a buffer before extending the fill-pointer. Now I have to set the fill pointer to the buffer size, and then reset it to the new length. Perhaps receive-from could have an option to automatically append to a buffer with a fill pointer? 15:19:43 *_3b* seems to remember running into that too 15:20:09 Good evening everyone! 15:20:43 Good evening! 15:21:23 Some unfaithful was thinking you were gone on holidays! 15:21:41 pjb: Bah! 15:21:41 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 15:22:05 In the packages.lisp file of McCLIM, there is a complete enumeration of all the ansi CL symbols. Why was it done that way as opposed to by looping over the symbols of the CL package? 15:22:08 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@95.69.42.232] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:19 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:26:26 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-lppatradariwujgi] has joined #lisp 15:26:51 Implementations are allowed to export other symbols from CL... 15:27:13 pjb: [wrt holiday] It's the other way around. I had to go to the university today, which is why I was "spiaggia" a large part of the day. 15:27:15 they are? 15:27:18 pjb: They are? 15:27:22 *_3b* thought they were not 15:27:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:23 IIRC. 15:28:13 -!- _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:18 Ah right, 11.1.2.1 says that no other may be exported. 15:29:04 What happen is that their home package may not be CL. But this shouldn't bother do-external-symbols. 15:29:21 -!- Draggor1 is now known as Draggor 15:30:16 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:30:57 That said, I remember that with some earlier versions of SBCL (I didn't check that on more recent ones), you got nasty warnings when you modified dynamically the export list of a package. You would have to use #. 15:31:10 Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:44 pjb: That is what is done in McCLIM. 15:33:05 sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:33 beach: oh, spiaggia is an alias of yours? 15:33:45 i believe it's italian for 'beach' 15:33:54 -!- kpreid_ [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid_] 15:34:09 ah 15:34:13 OliverUv: Oh, come on! Use some of your language skills! 15:34:28 OliverUv: strand, beach, spiaggia, plage. All the same. 15:34:31 Only got German, Swedish and English 15:34:37 Playa! 15:34:46 the latinate languages are weird. :) 15:34:57 ! 15:35:03 But I will probably start learning Mandarin at the beginning of sept. 15:35:05 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:05 although not that weird. 15:35:12 Which is going to be difficult but fun 15:35:15 stassats: How do you pronounce that? 15:35:15 (i hope0 15:35:32 stassats: Oh, plage! 15:35:41 Nah, 15:35:56 almost like plage 15:36:08 Interesting! 15:37:13 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:06 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:40:01 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:40:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:38   15:41:52 bah, the direction is probably wrong 15:41:57 my terminal apparently doesn't have a font for that. 15:42:03 what is it? hebrew? 15:42:05 look 15:42:09 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:42:09 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 15:42:10 looks like hebrew 15:42:11 Fade: yes 15:42:28 Ranta (in Finnish) 15:42:57 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e4988-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:08 <_3b> mine has no font, but gets the direction right :p 15:43:12 (should be " ", actually) 15:43:23 stassats: pl(j)asts? 15:43:37 don't give beach ideas! it's already hard to track him 15:43:45 heh! 15:44:23 Beach's not a number, he's the concept of a number! :-) 15:44:37 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.220.223] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 15:46:46 I suppose next time I am in Vietnam, I'll use "băi bin". 15:46:59 peterhil: the last sound is kind of like the j in jamais (sort of a softened "g" sound), not whatever "sts" may mean 15:47:40 all those are so short.. in my language it's longish :D   15:47:54 urdu? 15:48:01 georgian :) 15:48:05 ahh :) 15:48:06 looks pretty, that's for sure :) 15:48:31 -!- jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:48:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:36 hadronzoo [~user@209.30.41.146] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 beach: but irc nicknames must be ascii. 15:48:51 are any of you guys using non-latin identifiers in your lisp code? 15:49:05 Georgian does have some beautiful script 15:49:29 Fade: I would if only I used non-english words as identifiers... I find it painful to switch between english and another language in the same form. 15:49:36 Fade: not in code in any language, when it's up to me 15:49:39 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:55 pjb: Too bad! 15:50:21 I ran into some lisp in shanghai with chinese identifiers. 15:50:27 128 codepoints should be enough for anybody 15:50:30 it was a real 'through the looking glass' moment. 15:50:45 I suppose b~ai-bi^,en would do? 15:50:54 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 15:51:02 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.136.243] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:51:33 pjb: The VIQR code would be ba~i bie^?n. 15:51:50 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 15:51:51 I suppose, but _what_ would it do? 15:52:03 Fade: Thanks to alpha equivalence, it should not matter :-) 15:52:10 hah 15:52:14 -!- pjb is now known as ba 15:52:17 Georgian script is beautiful. As is armanian. Not to talk about mognolian  they can compose characters by "piling them up" in addition to the base character. 15:52:20 -!- ba is now known as ba\ 15:52:34 -!- ba\ is now known as ba 15:52:41 yeah, well, the code apparently did what it was supposed to do; I, however, was not able to read it. :) 15:52:42 -!- ba is now known as pjb 15:52:56 Seems that we cannot have tildes either in nicks on freenode. 15:53:15 Oh :( 15:53:17 Fade: what about google-translate? 15:54:06 OK, so no reasonable ideas as to why McCLIM mentions those CL symbols explicitly, rather than looping over the package symbols. 15:54:21 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:25 there was extremely limited access to external resources on the site. 15:54:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:49 according to coworkers, working on-site in China is Not Fun in all kinds of ways 15:55:50 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:55:57 Yay! I got libmagic to compile as 64 bit. Next on to recompiling libao... 15:56:43 peterhil: what platform? 15:56:47 nyef looked at my XCVB issues the other day and found that it was a bug/misdesign in how SBCL fails to allow for user-defined signal handling/blocking. Sigh. 15:56:49 cartan [~cartan@mail.luratech.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:13 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:58:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@145.52.240.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:03:18 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:04:37 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:10:51 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:40 *_3b* wonders if ddr3 is still expensive, or if i can put off optimizing ram usage by upgrading :p 16:11:55 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:14:15 _3b: ddr3 is sometimes cheaper than ddr2 these days, IME 16:14:21 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 16:14:39 though RAM prices in general are probably up a bit 16:15:08 there's a continuing supply shortage due to the Great Depcession; people were a little too eager to shut down production lines 16:15:10 <_3b> looks like i could add a 4gb stick for $100 or so, probably a bit more than i want to spend just to be lazy :) 16:16:16 <_3b> or replace the 6gb i have with 12gb for $300 16:16:30 what, 6GB isn't enough? :) 16:16:42 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:16:49 *rsynnott_* is stuck with 4gb at home and at work due to two computers produced at the close of the 32bit era 16:17:24 <_3b> well, i was hitting swap pretty hard on the 4gb laptop, so guessing i'll still stress the 6gb if i work on this machine 16:17:36 *_3b* has some not-quite-ram-efficient code :) 16:17:53 <_3b> at least for the pathological function in this test app 16:18:14 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:18:47 <_3b> something like 720 forms, each wrapped in an unwind protect, which mean jumps all over the place, and i don't use locals efficiently 16:18:47 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:26 <_3b> (and that isn't counting the times when i just start burning ram due to getting stuck in a circular list or whatever) 16:19:45 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:19:54 <_3b> but if i had 12GB, i could fill the sbcl heap and still have room for a few apps :p 16:20:10 <_3b> (filling ccl would still be bad if i remember right though :) 16:20:44 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:21:28 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-193-166.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:23 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:24:38 jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:25:23 -!- aeouidhtns [~daniel@187.10.43.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:25:25 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 16:26:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-208.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:26:48 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@c3po.streamtech.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:47 phear_ [~user@unaffiliated/phear] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:30:05 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:46 kpreid_ [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 16:32:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:37:29 -!- sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:41:20 -!- phear [~user@unaffiliated/phear] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:45:28 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@97-119-20-220.omah.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 16:47:25 moah [~gnu@188.109.205.50] has joined #lisp 16:47:54 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-4-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:53 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-82-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:50:20 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-lppatradariwujgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:53:54 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:56:15 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:07 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:20 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 16:59:52 hello 17:00:23 Fade: ppc64 (PowerPC G5 970) 17:01:08 *nod* 17:01:11 what operating system? 17:01:25 Mac OS X 10.5.8 17:01:32 ahh 17:01:59 I was guessing bsd, but that's close enough, I guess. 17:02:40 I use FreeBSD on one home server. And should install Linux for development on this Mac. 17:03:46 I run linux on my 32bit ppc mac. 17:04:12 nyef has been doing some good work to bring sbcl up to scratch on ppc boxes, but I still run clozure cl on that machine. 17:07:30 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:07:34 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:41 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:11:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:55 tcr [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has joined #lisp 17:14:24 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:38 pjb: if you can think of an interface that works well for adjustable and non-adjustable arrays, just send a message to iolib-devel 17:15:13 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:16:45 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17:27 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:33 carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.25] has joined #lisp 17:20:17 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-23-82-248-107-95.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:40 marienz_ [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 17:22:48 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 615 seconds] 17:24:21 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:25:06 fe[nl]ix, hi 17:25:13 got time to discuss libfixposix? 17:25:21 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:02 Fare: yes 17:28:19 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:23 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:45 fe[nl]ix, so should I generate one file per group of wrappers currently in iolib/src/syscalls/*wrappers* ? 17:29:57 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:05 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 17:30:29 Fare: one file per syscall 17:30:47 gigamonkey [~user@c-76-102-30-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:57 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:22 per syscall??? What about when there are plenty of related things like WIFEXITED and WEXITSTATUS ? 17:31:22 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:48 also, my current code uses upper case prefix LFP_ when the thing is all upper case, lfp_ otherwise 17:31:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:32:16 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:32:41 and I suppose you mean one .h file and one .c file -- should the .h file do the inclusion of .h dependencies, or should the .c file? 17:33:17 should the .h files do a #ifndef FOO_H #define FOO_H #endif thingy? 17:33:41 Fare: that convention is used to distinguish between functions and macros, but since the library will only contain functions there's no point in having some of them upcase 17:33:47 Hmmm. 17:33:56 Hey Zhivago, you around? 17:34:10 fe[nl]ix, so should I downcase the macro WIFEXITED into a function lfp_wifexited ? 17:34:24 Fare: yes 17:34:27 ok. 17:34:30 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:34:32 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:45 can you answer the other questions above? 17:34:48 Fare: and put every public function in libfixposix.h.in 17:35:03 if it's feasible, I'd like to have everything in just one header 17:35:04 -!- marienz_ [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 17:35:09 oh, so all of them in the same .h file? 17:35:36 yes 17:35:51 ok - what about .c files? do or don't put related things in the same .c file? 17:37:30 related things, yes 17:37:37 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 17:37:54 see select.c, which I committed today 17:38:16 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:39:49 -!- oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:40:00 I guess he's not here. 17:40:22 leave him a memo 17:41:01 oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 I'll probably just check back later, because I was hoping to have a conversation rather than ask a single question and get a single answer 17:41:34 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:40 ¯\O_o/¯ 17:45:34 Makoryu: what's that? Looks like an adult trying to save a child from drowning and failing. 17:45:50 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:54 Hah 17:46:10 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 17:46:11 No, it's one person shrugging and making a bemused expression 17:46:12 :p 17:46:56 Re: drowning. Everyone, especially folks with kids, should read this: http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/ 17:47:14 that's a good article 17:47:43 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:50:33 gigamonkey: thanks for the link, reading now. 17:50:34 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-101-39.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 Many of the comments are also worth reading. 17:52:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:44 Okay, say you're judging a piece of code, what criteria would you use? So far I've got: correctness, code readablity, speed, memory usage, creativity, code length. 17:53:35 error handling, debuggability, robustness. 17:53:47 asarch [~asarch@187.132.136.243] has joined #lisp 17:53:49 fe[nl]ix, what about the dependency of iolib to it? 17:53:51 yeah that was a good article 17:53:56 fe[nl]ix, are you going to handle that? 17:53:57 thanks for sharing 17:54:16 should we just rely on libfixposix being installed (e.g. in /usr/local/lib)? 17:54:24 pkhuong: How is robustness different from error handling? 17:54:31 gigamonkey: does readability imply maintainability? I might be able to read a piece of code and know what it does, yet not be able to change or fix it.  17:54:32 <_3b> complexity? 17:54:39 Fare: yes 17:54:51 ok 17:54:54 Fare: that's why I'm making a release now 17:54:54 ttyl 17:54:54 hargettp: probably not, I had just added "ease of modification, extension" 17:54:57 ok 17:54:57 <_3b> (or simplicity/elegance) 17:55:06 gigamonkey: :) 17:55:07 of iolib? last release before new strategy? 17:55:25 btw, cffi patches to be sent to cffi-devel? 17:55:51 gigamonkey: with robustness, I meant something that addressed the problem that we don't always control the rest of the code. So, sure, erroring out is one option, but, often, ensuring sane execution, with a runtime-warning, may be more useful. 17:55:52 Fare: exactly 17:56:08 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:56:42 Fare: I'll have a week or so of vacation starting from tomorrow and I hope I'll get to that 17:56:52 I have a few patches of my own to push 17:56:56 e.g. getting error handling right may barf on minor syntax errors, while robust code would be more like practical HTML parsers. 17:56:58 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:57:26 pkhuong: right. So they aren't always totally aligned. 17:57:42 hargettp: It's the other way around; readability is a necessary condition for maintainability. 17:57:55 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:58:00 beach: agreed 17:58:22 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 17:59:23 *beach* is in a rotten mood for some reason. 17:59:51 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:26 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:35 -!- vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:36 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.136.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:53 pkhuong: so how about, robustness is a measure of how the code deals with illegal input (input broadly speaking). Non-robust software makes demons come out your nose and burns down your hose on illegal input. 18:01:05 robust code either errors out gracefully or does something sane. 18:01:30 Whether you want your software making up some "sane" behavior in the case of illegal input probably depends on what kind of software it is. 18:02:10 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:02:39 *_3b* would use 'robust' more for things that have fallbacks for after the graceful erroring out 18:03:41 <_3b> "fail early" isn't good enough by itself if it is controlling my airplane :) 18:03:55 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.160.5] has joined #lisp 18:04:07 gigamonkey: PHP has a very very _bad_ tendency to "make up 'sane' behavior" 18:04:17 I'd rather have the program scream at me in the most informative way possible :\ 18:04:35 man that was a scary article :/ 18:04:38 sykopomp: I think that's often wise. 18:04:50 steven_t: yeah, no kidding. But good stuff to know. 18:04:53 especially since my wife often takes my 3 kids to the pool when im working 18:04:56 gigamonkey: 'sane' behavior? I think the problem is that the sane behavior tends to cascade. 18:05:00 definitely good to kow. thanks for sharing it 18:05:04 *stassats* imagines "you're doing it wrong" style-warning from SBCL 18:05:06 so it might not be a problem now, but it ends up being a problem months later. 18:05:43 one day, the error happens -- but it's so far from where you should have caught it, that it takes forever to actually deal with it. 18:05:58 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:06:00 *sykopomp* likes style warnings. 18:06:02 Robustness is the ability of some software to behave in a reasonable way for input that was not specified. While it would be according to the specification in that case (since it is not specified) to erase your hard disk or explode the nuclear power plant, that would not be robuest. 18:06:14 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 18:06:23 *robust 18:06:36 beach: yes. 18:06:38 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:05 Robustness is *not* inventing false answers to incorrect input. 18:07:25 So the question is, assuming your software is going to be robust, is it ever really a good idea to do anything other than cleanly failing on illegal input? 18:07:39 If not, then robustness is basically the same as proper error handling. 18:08:03 *p_l* is astonished how much google fails at Proxy Support 18:08:12 <_3b> in a lot of cases, the important part is what happens after you fail 18:08:18 The only thing I can see is if there are a small number of very specific ways that you expect the input to occasionally be somewhat invalid, detect those cases, and fix them on the fly. 18:08:24 gigamonkey: The key word here is "cleanly". 18:08:27 <_3b> do you reboot and process the bad input again, and get stuck in a loop? 18:08:36 gigamonkey: depends what you mean by clean failure 18:08:44 proxy support; something that no-one, anywhere, does properly :) 18:08:48 <_3b> or do you have some sort of recovery, or backup systems, etc 18:08:58 but even doing that much risks nasal demons months later :\ 18:09:00 hint: "enter the debugger" is rarely the right course of action for a user-facing system. 18:09:18 rsynnott_: tsocks is much better than what I have on Android :P 18:09:39 i'd like to see more debugger prompts 18:09:44 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:10:03 Fade: you don't need to throw people into the debugger. 'Fail' can just mean 'throw a condition and set up a handler somewhere further up' 18:10:05 gigamonkey: You might be referring to a different kind of exceptional situation, namely "failure", which is one module using another module in violation of preconditions. Then you are right, all you can do is abort with an error message, because you don't know what state the software is in. 18:10:11 like PCL's example with reading logs. 18:10:11 gigamonkey: you can design your application from the very beginning with assumption of failure and simply trying to reach certain low probability of it, then have a good restart routine... 18:10:21 sykopomp: of course 18:10:49 I think it's fundamentally an unanswerable question, i.e. a judgement call. You might say returning to status quo ante would be "clean". But what if the program did a lot of work before hitting the erroneous input. In that case you might like to somehow save the work done so far and then provide a way to pick up where you left off after fixing the input. 18:11:17 asarch [~asarch@189.188.143.77] has joined #lisp 18:11:57 gigamonkey: the first issue is that we are talking about failure response without knowing the domain :D 18:12:08 there's also the possibility that one day, networking and other kinds of I/O will be as reliable as we usually consider function-to-function flow of data, and we can just apply a type system to it and not worry about it too much :) 18:12:23 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12:26 gigamonkey: Example, it is very unlikely that the specification of a word processor would explicitly indicate what happens if you pull up a menu and then hit M-C-H-a while simultaneously moving the mouse. So, it would be according to spec to erase the hard disk. But you don't want to terminate execution, and instead you want to give some error message or just do nothing. 18:12:50 Another way to look at robustness is that it's a reaction to the reality that specs are never perfect. If there's some input that's not covered by the spec, in many domains it would be better for the programmer to fill in the gap in the spec and do something "reasonable". 18:13:15 But if you're writing life critical software the correct thing to do is to go back to the drawing board and fix spec. 18:13:20 symbole [~symbole@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:31 Definitely. 18:13:53 there was an interesting article about writing software for NASA 18:14:42 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:14:46 one idea i got from it is that it's an utterly boring process 18:15:04 stassats: as with all such constrained systems 18:15:09 I tried to get one of those NASA guys for Coders at Work but could never get in touch with them. 18:15:22 the process of the shuttle avionics group at nasa has been the subject of quite a few articles. 18:15:46 i was referring to this http://www.fastcompany.com/node/28121/print 18:15:47 So to get back to my original question to pkhuong about the difference between error handling and robustness, I think error handling is a measure of how well the software deals with the non-happy cases in the spec while robustness measures how the software deals with unspecified input. 18:16:01 as it results in an unbelievably low bugcount per kloc. 18:16:17 and costs a huge amount of $/loc 18:16:22 for sure 18:16:33 nobody but nasa could afford to write software that way. 18:16:38 bugs cost more 18:16:46 it's only really applicable to life critical systems. 18:16:51 *_3b* wonders if that is actually true (abut nasa stuff being more expensive) 18:17:30 <_3b> given how much some big companies manage to spend without actually finishing anything, how does the cost/feature for nasa-code compare to 'enterprisy' code 18:17:57 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:07 <_3b> $/loc only matters if loc/feature is constant 18:18:10 well, in the avionics group, the spec is law. 18:18:17 feature creep is non-existant. 18:18:25 _3b: favorably 18:18:33 <_3b> true, enterprisy stuff has different constraints :) 18:18:34 _3b: I think $/feature point, is also quite high, if you want to go there. 18:18:40 er, function point? 18:18:40 Fade: writing the spec is not much different from writing the code 18:18:46 also true. 18:19:01 "actually understand the domain" 18:19:21 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:19:28 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:33 *stassats* usually writes code to understand what code he needs to write 18:19:52 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 18:20:34 well, i think in lisp, the costs of doing that are so low that you usually get a rough alpha from writing the spec. 18:20:41 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:20:43 in other environments, that's not actually the case. 18:21:07 ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 18:21:27 <_3b> well, in the nasa style environment, not being able to run the initial version is probably an advantage :) 18:21:42 knuckolls [~knuckolls@office.americanroamer.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:58 astalla [~astalla@93-36-224-236.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:22:01 -!- knuckolls [~knuckolls@office.americanroamer.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:23:27 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:28 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:24:01 I find some non-trivial amount of total project time is usually spent figuring out what a 'normal' input will be. 18:24:23 the law of strange inputs. 18:24:35 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6B15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:21 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:28 it's amazing to me that any html parser anywhere ever manages to render the majority of things even vaguely correctly. 18:26:20 <_3b> well, to some extent that is just convergent evolution... they just have to render it /similarly/ and the content will converge to match 18:26:34 HTML parser development appears to function similarly to evolution by natural selection 18:26:37 :) 18:26:38 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 18:26:42 that's an interesting observation. 18:27:04 the parsers slowly change to account for the evolution of HTML (as written; nothing to do with the standard) 18:27:15 those which do not keep up are left behind 18:27:26 i think evolution is a good way to write software 18:27:29 sometimes, they even spawn new parsers (apple webkit to google webkit) 18:27:51 thankfully, there is no recombination involved, though 18:27:54 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e23a0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 18:27:58 gigamonkey: or stuff like amorphous computing, in which redundant unreliable components are made to work together and degrade gracefully. 18:28:01 I think Creative Commons needs some "No-Attribution" licenses: 'you can use this but you can't blame me.' 18:28:17 hah 18:28:26 similarly, the way HTML is written changes slowly to fit the parsers 18:28:38 gigamonkey: you could just PD it and put it up on some random page that's not linked to your identity :) 18:29:01 *rsynnott_* wonders could one actually keep a parser up-to-date through recombination and polling sets of users on whether it was correct :) 18:29:02 there is CC-0 18:29:29 http://creativecommons.org/choose/zero/ 18:29:55 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:30:18 or better http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ 18:31:33 I guess they don't mention that here http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses since it's not a license? 18:32:15 maybe they're not fond of it 18:32:16 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:33:00 gigamonkey, what is the status of Code Quarterly? 18:33:07 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:32 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:53 symbole: working on it. Shooting for a first issue in Fall 2010 but won't fall off my chair if it turns into Winter 2011 (i.e. beginning of next year) 18:34:01 *gigamonkey* is slightly slowed down by a new baby in his life. 18:34:35 great 18:35:16 congratulations :) 18:35:37 Fade: thanks! 18:36:27 gigamonkey: Congrats! 18:36:54 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:58 I guess there's the chance that one of your kids will become a rare third generation lisp programmer. :) 18:37:17 Anything's possible, I suppose. 18:37:21 "these are your father's parentheses..." 18:37:22 Richard Dawkins wrote a bit about this sort of thing in his recent book, actually (he was an early proponent of computer models of evolution, though for demonstrating and studying evolution rather than evolving software, which appears to be harder 18:37:42 Hraban: :-) 18:38:19 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:38:31 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:47 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:18 gigamonkey: I guess, you don't have much time right now, but I found a minor typo in PCL. Well actually two, but I did not write the first one down. 18:40:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@118.101.174.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:40:35 peterhil: email them to me if you get a chance (peter@gigamonkeys.com) 18:40:36 -!- cartan [~cartan@mail.luratech.com] has quit [Quit: wrrrmmmm] 18:40:44 Ok, I will. 18:41:28 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:44:42 symbole: the thing I'm working on as we speak is a Code Quarterly Coding Challenge where I'll solicit entries in any language and coding style folks want to use that implement a medium-sized spec I'll provide. We'll publish them all on our web site and I'll write an article discussing the best ones. 18:45:56 gigamonkey, that sounds exciting. are these algorithmic, or app building challenges? 18:46:30 The first one is going to be more app building. Basically to implement a parser for the lightweight markup language I used for my books. 18:46:34 I remember this coming up here...and was really really off topic, but wanted to ask it again...the Advantage keyboard - anyone have one of those that's active at the moment that doesn't mind me pming them? 18:46:50 It's not terribly hard but it has enough weird corner cases to require some cleverness to come up with a clean solution. 18:47:34 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:47:34 (At least I *think* there's a clean solution out there--I keep reimplementing it because I keep coming up with code that's hairier than the problem seems like it deserves.) 18:47:44 <_3b> should *print-circle* affect (format t "t~{~a~}." (list #1=" " #1#)) ? 18:48:40 clhs *print-circle* 18:48:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm 18:48:50 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:49:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-254.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:49:29 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:58 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:56 benny` [~user@i577A3208.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:18 should (mapc #'print (list #1=" " #1#)) be affected? 18:54:37 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:39 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 18:54:46 *_3b* would expect no for both cases 18:55:05 *_3b* 's expectations are not always met though 18:55:33 -!- benny [~user@i577A87FC.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:55:41 ACL doesn't agree with your expectations on the first case 18:55:59 <_3b> right, thus the question :) 18:56:17 the answer is "screw ACL" 18:56:55 <_3b> that may prove to be a reasonable answer too 18:59:03 <_3b> the first example is particularly fun since acl appears to coalesce strings in COMPILE-FILEd code 18:59:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:59:58 *_3b* will just make the strings different for now 19:00:28 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 19:01:24 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:01:35 <_3b> now i just need to figure out why it won't compile circular literals with C-c C-c from slime, and if that is related to why it won't compile the ones in my real code from C-c C-k 19:02:40 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:50 Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:55 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@dhcp184-49-168-47.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:55 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:35 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:09:31 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:11:22 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:44 gruseom [~daniel@136.159.108.4] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:56 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 19:16:33 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:41 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 uh, how should I ,@ a variable in a macro that is already in a ,(...) sexp? 19:17:13 -!- jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #lisp 19:17:16 <_3b> add a ` somewhere? 19:17:17 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 19:17:40 <_3b> or maybe . or APPEND or NCONC or something might help 19:17:48 _3b: tried that, this is elisp, but #emacs doesn't really seem much of a emacs lispy channel 19:17:50 <_3b> (or more context) 19:17:57 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:13 *_3b* doesn't know much about elisp 19:18:17 ,(multiple-value-bind (name) (read-from-string 19:18:17 (format "(slime-eval '(cl-awesome::%s %s))" 19:18:20 function ,$args) name)))) 19:18:25 something along the lines of that 19:18:36 ...except replace that $ sign with a @ sign 19:18:39 typo :P 19:18:51 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:23 <_3b> well, it is in the right place for . to work at least, not awake enough to tell if it actually would or not though 19:19:35 zc00gii: why not just APPLY #'FORMAT 19:19:45 <_3b> that sounds like a better idea 19:19:46 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:52 good idea 19:20:00 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:09 and like, (append function args) 19:20:38 <_3b> you mean (cons function args)? shouldn't need it if it is like CL apply 19:21:10 what is the word for "raising a number to the power of number" (sorry, not a native speaker, don't know the name of the operation in english) 19:21:17 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:52 <_3b> exponentiation? 19:22:24 and what is the lisp function for it? 19:22:35 <_3b> clhs pow 19:22:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for pow. 19:22:39 *_3b* loses 19:22:43 expt 19:23:13 <_3b> yeah, that 19:23:24 thanks 19:24:52 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:25:57 _3b: 19:26:01 (apply #'format "(slime-eval '(cl-awesome::%s %s))" 'foo '(bar baz)) ---> "(slime-eval '(cl-awesome::foo bar))" 19:26:05 that's odd 19:26:13 oooh ic 19:26:19 hmm' 19:26:29 looks like I'll just have to do a hackish let + loop 19:26:45 clhs expt 19:26:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_exp_e.htm 19:26:56 zc00gii: what do you want it to return? 19:27:16 "(slime-eval '(cl-awesome::foo bar baz))" 19:27:28 this is elisp 19:27:32 so I can't iterate 19:29:31 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:30:05 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 19:30:46 How about: (format "(slime-eval '(cl-awesome::%s . %s))" 'foo '(bar baz)) 19:31:37 <_3b> or for that matter, you could probably print the ` and ,@ into the string as well 19:31:47 What's a good concise intro (book or web) to common lisp that'll make me ready to write clisp? I don't need philosophizing since I already know haskell 19:32:20 minion: please tell dv- about pcl 19:32:21 dv-: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:32:43 not particularly concise, but truly great book 19:32:44 dv-: note that 'clisp' is the name of a Common Lisp _implementation_. When referring to Common Lisp, we usually say 'CL', or just 'Lisp' 19:33:52 dv-: Common Lisp is not a functional language, so I'm not sure how a background in Haskell helps :-) 19:33:59 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:34:31 Someday I'm going to write something about "Haskell is the Lisp that everyone who hates Lisp hates" 19:35:50 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 19:35:59 is that true? 19:36:04 haskell is pretty hard. I hope CL is easier 19:36:22 ost: well, depending how you look at it. 19:36:42 It's taken some people a very long time to even get started with CL. See gavino. 19:37:19 dv-: I think CL is easier than Haskell. 19:37:39 dv-: Common Lisp was the first programming language I actually learned (messed around a little bit with python). I don't find CL to be very hard at all :) 19:38:37 dv-: CL (as with most Lisps, really) is way closer to the "P-family" scripting languages than to Haskell 19:39:08 dv-: there's one very easy book that I learned CL with, though 19:39:13 minion: please tell dv- about gentle 19:39:13 dv-: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 19:40:08 minion: smoother than what? 19:40:09 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 19:41:11 gigamonkey: than PCL, for example 19:41:50 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 19:41:55 sykopomp: i'll check both books out and pick one to start. thanks 19:42:12 dv-: what kind of background do you have with programming? 19:42:26 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:28 *gigamonkey* hrumphs at sykopomp 19:42:37 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 gigamonkey: hey now. When I was having trouble with PCL, you're the one that recommended Gentle Intro :) 19:43:42 and I still read PCL afterwards! 19:43:46 sykopomp: it's a hobby. I know C, ruby, haskell, and so on 19:43:54 sykopomp: really? Maybe I wast just trying to get you off my back. ;-) 19:44:08 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:10 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:44:11 gigamonkey: That's possible :( 19:44:28 dv-: you are exactly the target audience for PCL. 19:44:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:04 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:46:40 That's good. It's rare that I'm the target audience of anything :p 19:47:12 sykopomp: well, we're all friends now so no harm done. 19:47:26 :) 19:47:39 -!- ost` is now known as ost 19:48:11 50UAAGIV6 [~user@p548A53D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:51 inertial scrolling in Emacs! 19:50:14 -!- 50UAAGIV6 is now known as urandom__ 19:50:32 ost, is the most annoying thing ever 19:51:01 true, too fast 19:51:44 lol 19:51:50 -!- leviathan [~quassel@c-82-192-226-27.customer.ggaweb.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:52:42 -!- knob [~anon@adsl-64-237-162-31.prtc.net] has quit [] 19:52:50 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:10 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 19:53:19 vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.205.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:53:39 I read that as 'ost is the most annoying thing ever' 19:53:54 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:54 I was thinking that was a little harsh 19:54:31 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:56:05 aeouidhtns [~daniel@187.10.43.201] has joined #lisp 19:56:21 fsl [~weechat@77-253-228-178.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 19:56:25 <_3b> any trivial-gray-streams maintainers around? 19:58:24 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:54 timor [~timor@port-92-195-42-206.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:01 sykopomp: gavino is bad argument, is there anything he doesn't have problem? 20:03:14 plinko [~plinko@ppp-124-120-123-179.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:03:53 vtz [~user@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-82-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:47 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:06:07 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-93-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:07:09 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:09:41 leviathan [~quassel@c-82-192-226-27.customer.ggaweb.ch] has joined #lisp 20:12:39 hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:12 postamar [~postamar@69-196-143-7.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:18 -!- postamar [~postamar@69-196-143-7.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:59 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:16:13 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 20:17:59 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:07 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20:57 ASau`: tongue _firmly_ in cheek. 20:21:12 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:48 sykopomp: there're saner examples when people have difficulty with CL. 20:22:02 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 20:22:40 -!- hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:22:55 ASau`: again, tongue it cheek :) 20:25:23 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:27:11 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:30 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:27:41 it seems like I'm only seeing half of your dialogue there, ASau` and sykopomp (: 20:29:12 antifuchs: , " It's taken some people a very long time to even get started with CL. See gavino." 20:30:43 oh, thanks 20:32:56 -!- fgtech^ [~federico@host226-156-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:00 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:36:31 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:31 hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:35 #lisp is getting strange! 20:36:48 Really? I think it's getting blessed. 20:37:13 two replies in a minute is rather unusual... 20:38:57 plinko: What do you know? 20:41:01 mhd [~mhd@pool-98-118-119-86.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:38 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:41:42 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 20:42:02 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:42:24 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:35 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 20:45:53 beach: still in a bad mood? 20:46:10 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:46:21 beach: absolutely nothing apart from what I've seen in the past few hours 20:46:31 Guthur: Much better, thanks. I spent some time with my (admittedly small) family, which helped. 20:47:34 beach: Do you have kids? if you don't mind me asking 20:47:51 No, that's why the family is small :) 20:48:03 -!- mhd [~mhd@pool-98-118-119-86.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:43 hehe, well at least you are a bit further along than myself, I have yet to find a wife, a vital ingredient as one can imagine 20:50:19 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.143.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:51:59 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 20:52:05 Guthur: I'm 55 years old and my wife is 62. And, yes, it is vital to have some distraction from work. Though, you may know that my wife translated Lisp in Small Pieces from French to English. She will sign your copy at the next ELS! :) 20:53:00 Ah, beach, I think she was the one who encouraged me to write up the talk I did at the 2005 Amsterdam meeting. I occassionally feel bad that I never did. 20:53:10 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:26 gigamonkey: That sounds very much like her, yes! 20:53:45 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 20:54:09 gigamonkey: The same time when you sold and signed my copy of PCL as I recall. 20:54:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 20:54:41 Yes. That was a lot of fun, getting all those copies of PCL into such eager hands. 20:54:56 -!- hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:55:35 Yeah, you looked like a green author. I am sure you are much more experienced by now. 20:55:53 I should try to get to ELS next year, hopefully I will see you there 20:56:08 Guthur: That should be fun! 20:56:30 Guthur: Where are you physically located? 20:57:11 Ireland 20:57:24 The northern part 20:57:33 Close enough. 20:57:49 -!- fsl [~weechat@77-253-228-178.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:57:53 I was in the middle of exams this year so couldn't make it 20:57:57 hdurer`` [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:04 I understand. 20:58:08 there was that whole ash business as well 20:58:31 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:34 That might still be an issue, though. 20:58:45 Hey guys, is there a CLX expert around? I have a problem that xlib:font-plist returns nil on the current font. 20:59:27 Guthur: I take it they lowered their standards so as not to endanger the "economy". 21:00:03 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 21:00:04 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 21:00:04 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 21:01:02 varjag_ [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 Sikander, nyef is the only knowledgeable person I know regarding CLX. 21:02:13 A cffi groveller wizard then? What is the correct syntax for (cvar ...)? When I write it as in the on-line user manual, I get a compilation error. 21:02:26 bound to be others though I suppose 21:02:26 Guthur: Ah, ok, thanks 21:02:26 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:21 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 I figured out (and got it working) how to apply affine transforms on glyphs. I want to put this in McCLIM, so that I can FINALLY have vertical labels in my on-screen plots. 21:04:12 (in the CLX backend of McCLIM that is) 21:05:01 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:16 Sikander: see http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Groveller-Syntax.html#Groveller-Syntax 21:05:27 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05:28 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:52 Fare: ping? 21:06:22 fe[nl]ix: That's exactly the syntax that won't compile due to a mismatch in arguments (or such). Thanks, though 21:08:43 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f650.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:10:53 Sikander: I'll try to look into it, then 21:12:31 -!- vtz [~user@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:05 fe[nl]ix: Wait, can cvar only work for a type equivalent to :int? So no :pointers? 21:13:32 Sikander: it should work with pointers too 21:15:10 fe[nl]ix: I have something like (cvar ("foo" +foo+) :pointer) and it bails with invalid number of elements in the inner list. 21:15:51 try just (cvar "foo" :pointer) 21:16:07 fe[nl]ix: Where do I put :read-only t? 21:16:24 (cvar "foo" :pointer :read-only t) 21:17:18 fe[nl]ix: Won't work. I can pastebin the error, if you're interested. 21:17:35 ok 21:17:46 but now I'm going to sleep 21:18:42 hdurer`` [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:44 I really appreciate how defparameter can take a third argument, a documentation string 21:19:09 -!- plinko [~plinko@ppp-124-120-123-179.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:53 fe[nl]ix: Ok. Just so you know: http://paste.lisp.org/+2F5V 21:20:10 (and yes, I dislike the flac naming) 21:20:55 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 21:21:33 Man, I suddenly realise that I had this same problem while I was working on the ncurses backend for McCLIM. if this can get resolved, that would be fantastic. 21:21:40 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:22:55 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:03 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:25:11 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:54 wow, those are really ugly names (: 21:32:03 Sikander: but it's cool that you're working on this (: 21:32:48 hdurer`` [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:21 antifuchs: You mean flac? I'm working on it for mixalot, actually 21:35:50 (and so also for shuffletron) 21:37:11 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:37:56 -!- phear_ is now known as phear 21:38:12 dustybin [dustybin@wizbox.org] has joined #lisp 21:38:21 -!- dustybin [dustybin@wizbox.org] has left #lisp 21:39:52 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:40:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:41:03 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:41:54 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:15 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:42:47 Goodnight 21:42:52 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 21:44:23 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-76-102-30-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:03 -!- hdurer`` 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[~notrael@purpletree.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:40:05 Komi [Komi@62.32.130.224] has joined #lisp 22:40:14 notrael [~notrael@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 22:40:27 hello, i have a lisp paste coming up, i'm having a quoting issue i can't figure out 22:40:35 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:43:10 well, it didn't post automatically, so: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112965 22:43:21 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.202.17.141] has quit [Quit: bye!] 22:44:20 my issue is in the second defun: the ,id is evaluated, and the repl doesn't have that data yet, obv. 22:45:00 jhalogen: you are in a defun, I think what you mean is defmacro 22:45:17 i tried that, made no apparent difference 22:45:24 (defmacro generate-tree-pathname-fns 22:45:32 same "id is unbound" error 22:45:54 well with defun you will just get that progn list returned 22:46:04 if you want the things to be executed afterwards it needs to be a macro 22:46:07 yes, it's a helper fn for another macro 22:46:10 ah ok 22:47:01 why do you want that comma by that id 22:47:11 :directory '(:relative ,id)) 22:47:25 when the fn i called, it needs to be evaluated 22:47:31 there is no id in your lexical environment 22:47:35 and :directory requires a quoted list 22:47:39 yeah, that's my prob 22:47:45 beach`` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-159.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:48:20 :directory (list ':relative id)) 22:48:31 try that 22:48:35 ahh i haven't tried that combo yet, let me see 22:48:44 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-101-39.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 22:48:59 make-pathname, is that a macro or a function? 22:49:20 I'm not sure if you should quote the :relative 22:51:49 -!- beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-128-8.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:42 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:52:58 OliverUv: that made progress, thanks, i have another issue to deal with in the function now to see if it does the trick 22:53:07 no probs 22:53:32 clhs make-pathname 22:53:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pn.htm 22:54:02 jhalogen: use :directory (:relative id)) I would think 22:54:04 jhalogen: though, if make-pathname is a macro then you probably never needed to quote that list in the first place 22:54:14 yeah, if it is a macro then it should be what bfein said 22:54:27 OliverUv: see link. 22:54:31 I annotated your paste with what I think it should look like 22:54:40 that's a pretty standard way of feeding options to macros, while it is rare to do so with functions (as far as I know) 22:55:00 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-42-206.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:12 lovely macros 22:55:54 bfein: unknown function :RELATIVE. :) 22:56:32 yeah 22:57:16 `(:relative ,id) or (list :relative id) 22:57:22 make-pathname is a CL function 22:58:34 actually, this generate-tree-pathname-fns is pretty scary. 22:58:42 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.25] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:58:47 sykopomp: i'm all ears! 22:59:14 sykopomp: (it's a helper fn for a macro) 22:59:26 right, I gather that much. 23:00:01 read-from-string is less than ideal, I think, for one. 23:00:45 sykopomp: i agree, i feel guilty every time i use read-from string after format in that manner, but i use it for development 23:00:48 actually, what I'm more concerned about is what you're trying to achieve by generating a metric ton of functions. 23:01:04 sykopomp: do you have an hour? 23:01:08 jhalogen: no 23:01:23 but I don't see why you need to use macros and generate all this garbage. 23:01:42 sykopomp: garbage? 23:01:59 sykompomp: not sure why the assumption is my intentions are impure. 23:02:01 programmatically generated symbols/function names :) 23:02:18 I just don't see why you're trying to use a macro here. 23:02:30 sykopomp: it's even worse than you think. you should the macro it's a helper for. 23:03:01 sykopomp: you would probably request my immediate arrest. 23:03:01 what is the problem you're trying to solve? 23:03:26 defning tree structures that automatically geneerate classes and hunchentoot handlers. 23:03:57 it is very far along and already used in a commercial system 23:04:07 it's just getting even heavier macros right now 23:04:09 oh goodness 23:04:13 yep. 23:04:19 heavy macrology is usually a pretty bad sign. 23:04:39 i'm open to other approach suggestions, but so far it is working. 23:04:50 can you show me an example of what it looks like, when used? 23:04:57 (paste it) 23:05:29 currently, each tree defintion macro call generates ~500 lines of code 23:05:49 i can't paste it at the moment, perhaps later 23:06:05 what I'm asking for is the macro call :) 23:06:10 not the expansion. 23:06:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112965#2 23:06:56 beach``` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-101-228.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:07:14 oh goodness me. 23:07:16 (prepares for onslaught of questions) 23:08:11 Looks like it desperately needed a refactor at one point 23:08:17 probably too late now 23:08:18 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 23:08:21 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:27 oh yeah, at some point 23:08:27 Guthur: now it needs to be taken out back and shot? 23:08:28 there are two things that look weird, jhalogen 23:08:31 (:span :class "pghdr" "New Order")) 23:08:41 (:a :href "/mc/" "Home")) 23:08:49 let me preface by saying that macro call works. 23:08:54 ah ok 23:09:04 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.160.5] has joined #lisp 23:09:04 OliverUv: I don't see anything wrong with that bit. 23:09:09 hi, ¿is there some way to evaluate the keys in a cond form? 23:09:14 hi, * 23:09:30 marioxcc: cond has no 'keys', and it evaluates the test. 23:09:42 rpg: pong. I sent you mail. 23:09:49 let's just say this is not the finalized syntax. 23:09:55 if you're talking about CASE -- no, but you can try evaluating them at read time, if that makes sense. 23:10:13 jhalogen: macros really should be a thin veneer over a functional/CLOS-y/both interface. 23:10:29 that macro generates classes. 23:10:35 sykopomp: sorry, i mean case 23:10:49 jhalogen: godspeed, looks like you're handling some heavy stuff 23:11:01 is there some way to evaluate the keys in a case form? 23:11:07 -!- beach`` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-27-159.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:11:07 jhalogen: why does it need to generate several functions?... 23:11:13 marioxcc: I already answered that. 23:11:14 thanks oliver, it hasn't exactly been painless 23:11:29 the ilc2010 paper for asdf2 is taking shape... 23:11:46 Fare: excellent! I just started using asdf2 last night :) 23:11:59 rpg: sorry for crowding you out of the redaction and rejecting some of your input :-/ 23:12:03 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.160.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:12:13 sykopomp, any positive or negative feedback so far? 23:12:47 Fare: I had some trouble with the tree-search stuff. Maybe I'm using it wrong, but it wasn't excluding my clbuild dir, even though I told it to exclude "clbuild" 23:12:47 sykopomp: please ignore that mis-paste, sorry 23:13:02 (i don't meant to ask that? 23:13:08 marioxcc: no problem. 23:13:23 thanks 23:13:30 marioxcc: is there a specific reason why you're using CASE here? 23:13:39 sykopomp: the tree needs to generate those functions for file handling called by other code. it's linked to the tree name so the fns are generated at the macro definition time. do you think i could replace them with anonymous functions somehow? 23:13:50 marioxcc: COND is likely what you want, if you want to evaluate your test. 23:13:51 sykopomp, weird. I gotta go now, but if problem persist you can paste your config and/or submit a bug on launchpad 23:14:11 Fare: I'll do that. I didn't look too deeply into it. Thanks. 23:14:30 so far, though, it seems fine. Not needing a *central-registry* is a big plus :) 23:14:38 odds are the order of arguments matter and you're not actually excluding things, or some such. 23:15:00 sykopomp, so I argue in my ilc2010 candidate paper to be. 23:15:01 sykopomp: well, i really need something like a case using a different test 23:15:37 i need something like a string-case 23:15:58 there's a string-case, yeah. 23:16:04 as a library 23:16:34 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:52 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.195] has joined #lisp 23:17:33 sykopomp: sure, i could write a macro too but 23:17:58 there isn't a standard way 23:18:03 (I mean, using standard macros) 23:18:09 marioxcc: pkhuong wrote a fast string-case for CL. 23:18:14 I can't find the link right now, though. 23:18:36 thanks :) 23:18:42 -!- obneq [~lukas@178-83-215-239.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:23 http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/talks/2009-05-28%20Milan/string-case.lisp Here's one.... 23:19:34 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:35 it's SBCL-specific, though :) 23:20:06 davazp [~user@83.49.73.28] has joined #lisp 23:20:11 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:54 -!- hadronzoo [~user@209.30.41.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:20:55 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:34 sykopomp: thanks you very much :) 23:22:37 sykopomp: i sincerely appreciate your criticism. to further horrify you, i have annotated the paste with the deftree macro that macro call uses. this is all in development so any suggestions are greatly appreciated. (the mvc framework this is a part of will be released as open-source in october.) 23:22:44 i'm using SBCL anyway 23:22:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112965#3 23:23:41 (has not been made hygienic yet) 23:24:04 hadronzoo [~user@209.30.41.146] has joined #lisp 23:28:54 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:54 -!- mhd [mhd@clozure-D1451B0E.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:30:54 -!- mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34:27 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D81B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:35:29 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.114.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:38:35 -!- vedm [~user@84-73-159-214.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:23 milanj [~milanj_@212.200.217.42] has joined #lisp 23:41:04 OliverUv: Success, thanks 23:41:19 congrats! 23:41:45 such a simple booboo on my part :) 23:43:54 i still have a lot to learn, and this project is a great vehicle 23:44:07 jhalogen: I have more time now that I'm home. Taking a look now. 23:45:15 -!- balooga1 is now known as Balooga 23:45:24 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-57.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:45:27 asarch [~asarch@189.188.143.77] has joined #lisp 23:45:29 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-76.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:45:43 sykopomp:thanks 23:46:06 jhalogen: there's no difference between leaf-nodes and inner-nodes?... 23:46:31 :leaf-nodes (client garment-blocks) is equivalent to :leaf-nodes (client) :inner-nodes (garment-blocks) 23:46:32 sykopomp: there is, it's just not for everything at the moment 23:46:48 for now, you caould define inner-nodes as leaf nodes 23:46:57 or vice versa 23:48:04 well, first thing's first.... 23:48:21 just so I don't waste your whole day telling you about what a bad idea it is to have this deep macrology... 23:49:56 sykopomp: sounds like the right track... 23:50:11 beach```` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-20-85.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:53:29 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:53:49 -!- beach``` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-101-228.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:54:13 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-180-93.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 23:55:02 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:56:16 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247]