00:00:36 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@sf-ogame.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:02:41 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:21 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:46 pix4 [~pixel@p4FC555CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:21 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:49 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:11 *stassats* wishes for a structured editor 00:09:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:10:03 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:42 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:32 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:14:48 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:16:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:46 JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-139-006.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:50 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:15 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:44 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30:14 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:30:38 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:05 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-13.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 00:40:16 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:30 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:41 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.81.247] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:41:56 Komi [Komi@83.231.80.212] has joined #lisp 00:42:10 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:31 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:45:41 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:28 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:58:26 prcas [~prc@187.54.143.221] has joined #lisp 00:59:02 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 00:59:16 rlb3_home [~user@168.sub-75-222-33.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:01 merach [~none@c-71-199-6-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:29 -!- merach [~none@c-71-199-6-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:14 merach [~none@c-71-199-6-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:18 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.80.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:02:31 BrianRice [~water@c-71-59-208-140.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:12 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:40 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:29 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:12:02 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:13:56 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:10 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:15:35 Anyone has had problems building the library "lift" on sbcl 1.0.40 ? 01:15:56 I believe it's been mentioned a couple of times recently, yes. 01:16:01 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:07 I forget what the actual reason was. 01:16:26 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:26 nyef: ah, I'm glad it's not my incompetence :) 01:16:30 At the same time, if you're not working with test cases, you don't need lift. 01:16:55 upward: if you're using asdf-install, just exit the debugger and repeat your install request 01:17:10 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:17:29 and the actual reason is that asdf-install is stupid 01:17:55 ... might be amusing to just remove asdf-install from SBCL for 1.0.42. 01:18:07 Certainly for 1.1. 01:18:19 stassats: Alright I'll try that 01:18:39 Are there projects in the works to replace asdf with something else? 01:18:54 asdf has nothing to do with your problem 01:18:56 Several, but do you mean asdf or asdf-install? 01:19:00 not asdf, asdf-install 01:19:24 yes asdf-install, sorry 01:19:34 actually the answer to either is "yes" 01:20:01 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.88] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:23:50 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.117] has joined #lisp 01:28:10 mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:16 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:30:45 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:25 -!- merach is now known as merAch 01:34:13 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:11 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36:07 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-158.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:36:09 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-158.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:37:46 rlb3_hom` [~user@179.sub-75-199-147.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:49 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:42:01 -!- rlb3_home [~user@168.sub-75-222-33.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:42:45 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 01:44:09 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:47:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:51 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:27 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:53:30 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:57 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:12 -!- pix4 [~pixel@p4FC555CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: zzZZzz] 02:03:56 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:25 sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:05:33 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e03de-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 02:10:23 -!- sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:11:01 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:52 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:16:00 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:16:21 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:22:45 abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:49 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:28:31 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-139-006.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30:37 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:31:45 *tcr* uses SBCL's package locks for fun and profit 02:31:47 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-29-158.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:32:00 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-72-210.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:32:17 They definitively solve a problem in a multi-men project 02:32:31 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:57 multi-men, multi-packages project :- 02:33:59 :-) 02:36:26 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:53 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:38 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:42:00 asarch [~asarch@189.188.200.37] has joined #lisp 02:43:41 Hm, bah, sbcl's package lock are not fine-grained enough 02:44:07 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 02:44:18 hi 02:44:33 Hi 02:44:34 is it possible to actually get at the values displayed by (room)? 02:44:36 :-) 02:44:43 ¿what the difference between proclaim and a top level declare? 02:45:12 Shaftoe_: Yes, look into its source 02:45:22 marienz: DECLARE is not allowed at the toplevel 02:45:29 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:31 tcr: thx 02:45:49 marioxcc: top-level declare is named declaim 02:45:54 ok 02:46:55 and the difference between proclaim and declaim is that proclaim is a effecting the run-time environment, whereas declaim also effects the compilation environment 02:48:08 ok 02:48:10 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:10 -!- lsk_ [~user@118-169-33-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:14 ¿what about special variables? 02:48:14 lsk_ [~user@118-169-33-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:16 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Martian Death Ray] 02:48:19 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:48:27 i mean 02:48:30 if i do 02:48:33 (defvar *x*) 02:48:40 (let ((*x* ...)) ...) 02:48:51 ¿is the *x* in the let of lexical or dynamic scope? 02:49:41 defvar expands to (declaim (special *x*)) and that one creates a persuasive special-variable meaning that ALL occurences of the symbol *x* in an evaluated context refer to a special variable 02:50:01 there is no way to make it locally unspecial 02:50:10 oh, ok 02:50:14 so that's why 02:50:25 (defun f (*x*) ...) would give an error 02:50:26 that's one of the reasons for the *foo* naming convention 02:50:26 ¿true? 02:50:33 No, why should it? 02:50:34 oh, ok 02:50:43 because then *x* would be special 02:50:55 and functions use lexical variables, as i understand (CL) 02:50:58 don't they? 02:51:06 it will create a function which binds the special variable *X* to the first argument passed to it 02:51:17 No 02:51:22 oh, ok, thanks 02:52:07 (defun foo (-x-) (declare (special -x-)) ) would create a local special binding named -x- (assuming no global defvar for -x-) 02:52:08 I think I need to paste a large sign above my monitor that says "look at the source" 02:52:33 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:40 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:18 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:53:23 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:53:28 marioxcc: http://www.flownet.com/ron/specials.pdf I've never read it but supposedly it will help you 02:54:17 It's awful. 02:54:30 oh, lol 02:55:11 Awful as in tainting? 02:55:25 I think so. 02:55:29 *tcr* sighs 02:55:52 don't worry, i know what lexical and dynamic scope is, i just was unsure about it usage in CL 02:56:00 Oh, sorry. 02:56:09 thanks all you very much :) 02:56:11 I saw "flownet" and I thought it was the packages paper again. 02:56:23 abeaumont [~abeaumont@126.83-213-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has joined #lisp 02:56:24 *Xach* can't remember if the specials paper is awful 02:56:57 oh hehe 02:57:01 marioxcc: It's hopefully not just about the difference 02:58:09 i'd take a look at the pdf 02:59:21 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 03:00:13 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:24 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:05:41 drewc`` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:35 -!- drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:08:22 Alright. I have a question regarding sbcl code. in sbcl/src/code/gc.lisp, inside room-minimal-info, there is 6 calls to format t one after another. 03:08:33 is this just to make the code cleaner looking? 03:08:42 or could there possibly be a reason for this to be this way 03:11:09 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e68b3-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 03:11:12 Shaftoe_: Why not do it that way? 03:12:02 CL doesn't have C's approach of magically merging adjacent string literals. 03:12:17 in FORMAT you have, kind of 03:13:05 Except that it doesn't let you indent the wrap properly, iirc. 03:13:18 xach: format is quite an expensive function call. I'm jsut going to test my assertion before I say anything though 03:13:35 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 03:13:44 shaftie: See formatter. 03:14:00 A call to format is not necessarily a call to format. 03:14:04 Shaftoe_: no it isn't. 03:14:04 -!- meder [~meder@c-71-206-10-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:14:30 A call to format is not necessarily a call to format. 03:14:30 -- i don't understand 03:14:35 And in an interactive function, it doesn't matter. 03:14:38 can you explain please? 03:14:59 marioxcc: Extend your literary abilities upward. 03:15:33 marioxcc: The compiler may inline quite a bit of it 03:16:06 marioxcc: with a constant control string (which many, many cases it is) a lot of work can be done at compile time. 03:16:27 if you aren't pretty-printing, you can eliminate much of the runtime work too. 03:16:31 I guess the only statement here which I 100% agree with is that it doesn't matter for an interactive function 03:16:57 oh, ok :) 03:17:36 shaftoe: Have you read about formatter yet? 03:17:51 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:40 meder [~meder@c-71-206-10-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:47 Zhivago: I've read about it. But you make it sound so ominous that I'm wondering if I've not. 03:20:23 I just specifically recall having profiled the difference between (concatenate 'string a b) and (format nil "~a~a~%" a b) and it was night and day 03:20:29 compiled and all. 03:20:59 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:13 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:50 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:26:07 Shaftoe_: concatenate is extra-lightweight. 03:27:14 Xach: I know. My point isn't that we shouldn't be using format or something like that. It's just that format is no light function. I was just wondering if it was merely for formatting purposes that the format function was used that way, or if there was some sort of side-effects which don't even know that I don't know about. 03:27:16 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 03:27:42 Shaftoe_: You don't know what you're talking about. 03:27:46 clarification: I was just wondering if it was merely for code legibility purposes that the format function was used that way, 03:27:56 Xach. alright. 03:27:57 Thanks. 03:28:01 Good night. 03:28:16 I think you'll find that is pretty typical CL, and nobody who writes would or should worry about that. 03:29:25 I wouldn't know. 03:29:34 -!- Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725148.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 03:32:46 what's the difference between a string and a character vector? 03:33:44 marioxcc: a string IS a vector specialized to hold only characters, or a subtype of character. 03:34:17 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_string.htm 03:34:58 interesting 03:34:59 thanks 03:36:10 tanami_ [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 03:36:15 -!- tanami_ [~markovic@150.101.97.171] has quit [Client Quit] 03:37:03 An unfortunate design error, imho. 03:37:03 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:17 Zhivago: why it's an error? 03:38:05 Well, it assumes that all strings can be meaningful decomposed to the same set of atomic constituents and that these constituents represent glyphs and characters. 03:38:38 This isn't really true -- the most obvious case is in German with the double schloss (or however you spell it) 03:39:01 So CL can't manage upcase or downcase transforms in the general case. 03:39:32 More generally it means that to be entirely conformant your characters need to be unicode combining character sequences if you want unicode support. 03:40:06 Which essentially turns characters into little strings (although this isn't enough to fix the previous issue, which needs to change the length of the string) 03:40:50 This isn't to criticize the designers of CL who were mainly encoding current practice, but it was an unfortunate choice when they got so much else right. 03:40:59 ok 03:41:22 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:42:05 Python and javascript made better choices in terms of not having characters. 03:42:48 But they compromise too heavily by making them appear arrays anyhow. 03:42:54 -!- lsk_ [~user@118-169-33-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43:39 well, I know very little about python or javascript 03:43:48 but i think i get your point 03:44:19 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:19 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 03:45:49 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:48:31 Well, just imagine you say "I'd like to print the first three characters of this string" 03:49:08 You can't just say (print (subseq string 0 3)) 03:50:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:52:34 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:55:53 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:31 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A75C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:21 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:46 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:03:27 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:04:12 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:04:50 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:59 Am I missing something, or is there really no standard way to do things in milliseconds besides GET-INTERNAL-REAL-TIME (if you're lucky?) 04:11:24 Just seemed like the sort of thing there's be a cliki.net library for, since I'm assuming that most implementations have a way to talk about system milliseconds. 04:17:54 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@2403:0:500:1:218:deff:fe54:bd88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:42 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:05 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:55 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:15 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26:28 jleija [~jleija@ool-44c7e1d1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:29 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.200.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:32:55 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 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[~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:04 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:56:09 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has joined #lisp 05:02:39 -!- jleija [~jleija@ool-44c7e1d1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:04:22 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:06:52 -!- galabad [~root@cpe-76-189-137-138.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it.] 05:10:05 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:26 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:56 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:11:27 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:39 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has joined #lisp 05:17:36 -!- abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:19:19 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:20:38 -!- drakej1 [~Marsha@216-67-27-210-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 05:24:05 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:26:33 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:26:38 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:59 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 05:33:14 -!- ionine` [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 05:33:36 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:24 Good morning! 05:37:38 lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has joined #lisp 05:38:16 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:47 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 05:39:01 -!- lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has quit [Client Quit] 05:40:22 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 05:42:09 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47:44 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:55 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:54:29 -!- Hraban [~Hraban@94-226-250-36.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:57:04 sykopomp: Did anyone figure out why my program is slow on our machines? 05:57:15 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:31 beach: I don't know. I haven't seen anything about it recently. 05:57:43 OK. Thanks. 06:07:30 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:09:13 -!- Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:10:41 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:23 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:52 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:17:50 sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:18:03 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:55 <_3b> beach: seems to have gotten slow between 1.0.36 and 1.0.37, fast again by 1.0.39.21 06:35:07 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:35:11 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:35:40 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:51 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:38 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:11 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 06:38:06 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 06:39:57 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:40:00 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:41:04 -!- sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: sellout] 06:42:55 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44:48 <_3b> beach: probably 1.0.36.24 and 1.0.37.36 06:46:18 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:51:08 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:37 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:56:22 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has joined #lisp 06:56:37 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:50 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:58:36 -!- prcas [~prc@187.54.143.221] has quit [] 06:58:50 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:02:29 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:04:50 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:06:29 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:13:30 sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:13:58 sdkmvx [~martin@unaffiliated/sdkmvx] has joined #lisp 07:15:49 -!- sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 07:20:18 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:28:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:15 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:09 timor [~timor@port-92-195-20-88.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:48 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 07:36:55 -!- bleakgadfly [~cato@168.81-166-171.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:41:43 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:26 fungo_ [~wangbo@58.20.106.254] has joined #lisp 07:45:57 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:33 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:30 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:54:05 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:57 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:57:22 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 07:58:43 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 08:02:06 -!- fungo_ [~wangbo@58.20.106.254] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:04:00 _3b: Thanks! So I should just quit worrying about it and wait until a more recent binary shows up? 08:05:15 Though I imagine that the SBCL maintainers would be interested in what happened, so that the problem won't be repeated. 08:05:33 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:06:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:08:22 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:08:52 <_3b`> beach: i'd probably build a new binary, but I usually build my own anyway... if the problem isn't too annoying, waiting is probably a reasonable thing to do 08:09:14 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:15 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:09:43 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8794 08:10:14 _3b`: I'll probably wait, unless it becomes a problem in some more critical application. For this one, I just load a database when I start the application, and then I never have to load it again, so I can wait a minute or so for it to load. 08:11:10 -!- Guest8794 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 08:11:19 _3b`: What would be nice though would be if the maintainers would put up a more recent binary for amd64 or sourceforge. 08:16:49 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:17:56 s/or/on/ 08:18:58 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:19:01 fungo_ [~wangbo@58.20.106.254] has joined #lisp 08:22:40 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has joined #lisp 08:23:35 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:25:49 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:25:59 -!- fungo_ [~wangbo@58.20.106.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:27:23 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:55 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:13 josemanuel [~josemanue@40.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 xan_ [~xan@5351F837.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 08:39:21 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 08:43:50 jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 08:44:49 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:43 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:33 <_3b`> does it say somewhere in the spec that (EQUAL (SUBLIS '(((A) . 1)) '(((A)))) '(((A)))) is required to be true (specifically that the (A) can't be the same cons in compiled code)? 08:51:55 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:43 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54:24 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:01 <_3b`> ah, i guess sbcl combines them too when i remember to test with compile-file, so i'll count that as a bug in the test 09:00:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:00:35 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:12 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:03:14 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:05:11 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:07:05 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F307.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:53 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082CD08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:08:57 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:09:25 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:37 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:14:57 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:17:25 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:33 fsl [~fsl@77-253-228-178.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #lisp 09:19:55 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 09:22:59 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-121-212.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:23:55 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:28:35 iop [~user@p57A7EE6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:48 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:55 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:34:08 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:05 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:01 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.244.110] has joined #lisp 09:39:02 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.244.110] has quit [Changing host] 09:39:02 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 09:40:32 -!- iop [~user@p57A7EE6E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:00 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@126.83-213-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:45:49 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:46:03 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:14 I was trying to get R.Scott McIntires libraries, rsm-string, working on sbcl, I've commented out the declaims. but subsequent compilation still fails unless I quit and restart then it succeeds? 09:47:13 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:48:01 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 09:48:16 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:26 ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-76-206.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:52 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:53:23 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 09:53:41 -!- fsl [~fsl@77-253-228-178.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:12 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 09:55:16 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:50 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:08 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.73.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:56:58 <_3b`> cisticola: you mean if you try t compile it with the declaims, then remove them and try again, it fails? 09:58:55 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:00:13 are declaims proclaiming types? 10:00:50 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:57 _3b`: yes, thats it 10:04:45 <_3b`> that seems reasonable, if it got far enough before failing that some of the broken declaims took effect 10:06:21 and the non-portable declaims stay in effect for ever? 10:07:40 <_3b`> non-portable ones i wouldn't expect to take effect, but portable but incorrect ones might 10:09:09 Better get them right first time then, not something I'm good at. 10:09:53 <_3b`> i think you could override them with a correct one 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:45 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:12:08 <_3b`> yeah, that seemed to work 10:12:23 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 10:13:27 Hi guys, recently I found some time to try and get font transformations into clx. But I run into a problem. 10:14:07 _3b`: good, thanks 10:14:10 When I try to open a font with a transformation by its name, clx refuses to open it. Can anyone point me to an explanation of how clx communicates with the server? 10:14:23 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-13-87.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:38 Sikander: i can point you to the source code 10:14:42 :( 10:15:17 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-247-192.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:19 stassats: I tried, but with not that much lisp experience, I get stuck all over the place :( 10:16:12 stassats: It's not entirely clear to me when something is requested from the X server, or when it's just stored somewhere for caching purposes. 10:16:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-42-204.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:16:27 <_3b`> hmm, EQUAL doesn't handle circularity, that's annoying :( 10:17:35 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:17:41 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-13-87.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:19:55 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-158-40.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:21:21 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:11 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:29:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:28 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:35 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:39:13 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:24 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has joined #lisp 10:40:17 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 10:41:41 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 10:42:22 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-90-145.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:33 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:39 Sumpen [Sumpen@216.168.1.54] has joined #lisp 10:45:00 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:53 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:48:02 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 10:48:51 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-208.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:49:00 Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:53 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:30 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-121-212.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:24 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:53:25 netytan [~netytan@85.211.6.238] has joined #lisp 10:53:44 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:59:15 <_3b`> are #1='(a #1#) and #2='(a #2#) 'similar'? 10:59:52 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 11:02:45 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:59 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:13 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:03:19 anyone have some symbolics *.bfd font files or know what they are? 11:05:35 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:08:23 mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 11:08:50 *fusss* is googling symbols from ancient code and finding similarly named ones in texinfo documentation 11:10:18 fusss: I have a file named FixedMediumLispm-13.pcf.gz 11:10:36 I can't remember where I downloaded it from, but it works under X 11:11:54 fe[nl]ix: i am gonna contact lispm and pick his brains :-) it's not that important, but just wanted to know the file format for BFD fonts (hard to google, since GNU calls its obj format BFD) 11:12:17 Isn't that the X11 format? 11:14:43 <_3b`> ah, guess it helps if i don't quote the #1# 11:17:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:17:30 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17:50 <_3b`> hmm, (eq (cdr '#1=(a . #1#)) (cdr '#2=(a . #1#))) is NIL when COMPILE-FILEd by sbcl? 11:23:42 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:42 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has joined #lisp 11:24:31 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-158-40.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25:57 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:40 lusory [~bart@bb116-14-104-43.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:30:46 pcos rocks! 11:31:12 one quality paper every ~6 months 11:31:30 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:31:31 "How to Make Lisp More Special" 11:33:55 f'uss 11:34:11 *Xach* has another demo of quicklisp ripe for trying 11:34:39 #quicklisp has the scoop 11:35:30 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:17 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:41:29 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:42:17 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:00 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:39 Hraban [~Hraban@94-226-250-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:46:51 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:48:38 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:53:56 xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.53] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-244-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:51 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-244-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:59 abeaumont [~abeaumont@192.83-213-161.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has joined #lisp 12:01:16 c|mell [~cmell@87.250.48.107] has joined #lisp 12:04:29 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:41 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:14:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-221.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:19:04 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-107.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:19:08 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-29-158.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:45 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:21:27 -!- rlb3_hom` [~user@179.sub-75-199-147.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:32 christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:50 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:38 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30:00 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:08 minion: memo for gigamonkey: your blog is MIA 12:31:08 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 12:35:23 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:38 fusss: it moved to wordpress or blogspot 12:35:44 fusss: check planet.lisp.org side link 12:36:04 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:04 tau [~lksjd@189-127-55-202.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-218-89.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:20 hey, i am using debian and intenting to study common lisp, what is the tools which i need to download for getting into the world's lisp ? 12:38:16 an interpreter, SBCL is a good one 12:38:18 emacs, slime, sbcl 12:38:31 and an environment, usually Emacs with SLIME 12:38:33 not sure about debian packaging though 12:38:45 I'm using Vim with Limp, which is working out well, too 12:38:52 debian's testing package is quite up to date 12:39:03 You may have to get slime manually though 12:39:12 It's not that hard though 12:39:37 i'm running debian sid, and the slime package integrates nicely with emacs, doesnt even need a startup file, just M-x slime 12:39:49 cinch, What version is Slime 12:40:11 Version: 1:20100605-1 12:40:50 reasonable enough I suppose 12:41:00 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:41:44 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:56 hm. 12:42:23 what a coincidence 12:42:36 so, must i download only slime package ? 12:42:41 slime just got a new version couple hours ago in sid ;p 1:20100722-1 12:42:45 Xach: cheers! 12:42:48 morning folks 12:43:15 what is the best to beginners , slime or sbcl ? 12:43:46 tau: slime is a development tool to make emacs into a lisp IDE. sbcl is the actual lisp implementation you will use. 12:44:09 Guest10162 [~WoodenBoy@87-194-114-233.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:44:19 tau: you can use a lisp implementation, without slime/emacs, but somewhere down the line you will need to get better with emacs 12:44:33 tau: what platform are you on? Windows/ 12:44:35 ? 12:44:59 he's on debian, which version though? stable/testing/unstable? 12:45:08 fusss: no, debian. 12:45:13 cinch: stable. 12:45:26 tau: sbcl or clisp should work 12:45:30 should be enough to do "aptitude install emacs slime sbcl" but i cant test it here 12:45:56 cinch: well, we will discover now whether it goes. 12:46:02 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:23 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@216.168.1.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:46:32 then launch emacs and do M-x slime 12:47:52 i am still downloading it, cinch , i got by using the apt-get. 12:49:21 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-22-25.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:29 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:22 tau: you can use only SBCL, but that will be very painful - using a programming tool connected to SBCL, such as Emacs+Slime or Vim+Limp makes the whole thing much more friendly 12:50:52 if you've used neither Emacs nor Vim before, Emacs will be easier to get started with 12:51:00 i finished, cinch. hmm, M-x ? 12:51:21 OliverUv: yeah, i downloaded the emacs + slime. 12:51:23 whether Emacs or Vim is better is a subject of eternal debate. 12:51:27 ah, nice 12:51:40 M-X means you press and hold the meta key and press X at the same time 12:51:47 i never have used emacs, OliverUv but i will learn it. 12:51:51 meta is usually the windows-key on normal keyboards, I think 12:51:52 or Alt 12:51:57 alt 12:52:26 though i guess it might change which is why M is used instead of alt :P 12:52:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:01 hey, i did alt + m + x, it gave me a input text to enter, so i typed 'slime' and it outputs 'no such file or directory'. 12:53:40 M-x means: hold down alt and press x 12:54:01 then type in slime 12:54:22 cinch: yeah, i did. 12:54:51 cinch: i entered with 'slime' and it returned a information meaning it doesn't exist, but i installed it. 12:55:08 it is emacs22. 12:55:10 sec ill try it out on this debian stable box 12:55:38 Good afternoon everyone! 12:55:41 cinch: k 12:55:57 Spewns: How is learning Lisp going? 12:56:16 tau: press alt + x not alt+m+x 12:57:25 cinch: i did. 12:58:07 im installing it on this box, its taking awhile because it ran out of memory lol 12:58:15 cinch: lol 12:58:20 *cinch* needs to configure openvz better 12:58:23 k 13:00:30 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:30 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:18 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:45 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:04:01 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:04:12 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 13:06:31 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:29 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:11:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.161.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:13:57 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14:54 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:38 -!- rlonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:28 moah [~gnu@188.109.199.198] has joined #lisp 13:21:13 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:26:07 'morning 13:26:17 Hello Fade. 13:26:24 Hello, beach 13:27:05 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:30:10 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:33:05 http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/mi.png # what I did on my holidays 13:34:51 looking good, that for SBCL? 13:34:51 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:35 yes 13:36:50 everything but the rightmost is expected to be in 1.0.41 13:38:13 -!- c|mell [~cmell@87.250.48.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:31 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:39:22 how do i modify the cdr of an element direcly? if i have a list '(a b c e) and i want to insert 'd between c and e, can i change the cdr of c to point at d, and the cdr of d to point at e? 13:41:20 Hraban: Are you sure that's an accurate description of what you want? 13:41:27 Hraban: What do you want the resulting list to be? 13:41:34 Hraban: You can do that. 13:41:36 '(a b c d e) 13:41:52 in more C like words, i just want to manipulate pointers to insert an element in a linked list 13:42:02 with (setf cdr). 13:42:16 Hraban: Modifying a '(x x x) is a bit frowned upon though. But yeah :) 13:42:30 doh! 13:42:46 Krystof: i tried that and got an error, now i see i tried (setf (cdr instead of (setf cdr :| 13:42:56 thanks 13:43:08 marcus_: then what other options are there? aside from rebuilding the entire list anew? 13:43:15 Hraban: You are not allowed to modify constant data. 13:43:25 Hraban: list instead of ' :) 13:43:35 beach: I think it is allowed. Just has undefined consequences :) 13:44:02 Right, that want I meant by "not allowed" :) 13:44:28 (: 13:44:42 *_3b* would assume any program that invokes 'undefined consequences' is not conorming 13:44:46 <_3b> *conforming 13:46:09 *marcus_* wouldn't. But maybe this discussion is a bit... 13:46:17 well the discussion will have undefined consequences :) 13:46:27 <_3b> (though i guess depending on how you interpret 1.5.2, it might only be non-conforming if it depends on specific behavior) 13:46:54 Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 Hraban: the idiom would be to take the data from the source '(a b c e) and return a new list with the desired structure. 13:48:50 yes, but isn't that inefficient? creating a whole new list just to add an element? 13:49:12 <_3b> you don't need to create /all/ of the new list, the end can be shared 13:49:15 Hraban: 1. Make sure the list was constructed like this (list 'a 'b 'c 'e). 2. Use (push 'd (cdddr list)) 13:49:25 the answer is 'that depends' but in practice, it's unlikely any kind of issue. 13:49:28 are you sure that the list is the right data structure in any case? adding items to random bits of lists is inefficient in any case 13:49:57 what Krystof said. 13:50:40 Krystof: Any chance I can convince an SBCL maintainer to put up a more recent binary for Linux amd64 on Sourceforge so that I can get rid of my performance problem? 13:50:44 Hraban: The well kept secret is that lisp is not all about lists (: 13:51:02 :o 13:51:07 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 here, have a hash table 13:51:48 beach: that worked perfectly, thanks :) 13:51:59 beach: can you not build a binary yourself? 13:51:59 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:33 *Hraban* suffered from conceptual blindness at being able to push an element anywhere but on top of a list 13:52:39 Krystof: I could. I just thought it would be more efficient if done once by someone who know how to set the right parameters, rather than by each client who does not. 13:53:01 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.6.238] has quit [Quit: netytan] 13:53:22 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:30 Hraban: (push x l) just (roughly) means (setf l (cons x l)) whatever place l happens to be. 13:53:52 <_3b> Hraban: i'd say it is more blindness to lists being composed of pieces each with their own head :) 13:53:59 m-. push 13:54:41 beach: the builds on sourceforge are done by (the equivalent of) taking the source release and typing ./make.sh in the top of the source tree 13:54:55 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:56 Krystof: OK. 13:55:27 or at least that's how I make the one I make. Other people's binaries may vary 13:56:07 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:45 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:26 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:12:53 -!- tau [~lksjd@189-127-55-202.i-next.psi.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:13:35 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18:58 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-244-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:19:55 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:08 Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725148.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:20:16 hi all. 14:20:26 I have a peculiar situation on my hands. 14:20:48 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-244-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:00 I'm using Hunchentoot and after my package is loaded, it seems the special variable *catch-errors-p* is unbound 14:21:11 hunchentoot:*catch-errors-p* 14:21:20 asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.140] has joined #lisp 14:21:27 doing a grep of the entire project gives only two hits: 14:21:39 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:41 an unless statement, and a defvar statement which sets that special to t 14:21:56 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:23:07 is there any mechanism by which it could become unbound? without its name being used? or do I just need to search harder for where it's being unbound? 14:23:13 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:25:01 that's tied to it's startup logic, I think. 14:25:32 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26:11 thwap to me. 14:26:44 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-239-29.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 14:27:18 I think 'maybe-invoke-debugger' is the generic function that defines the machinery that handles that particular special. 14:30:24 Fade: That doesn't explain how it can become unbound if globally initialized to t. 14:31:13 that's true, but it gives a place to start looking. :) 14:32:13 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:15 Alright. I think the code is somehow different on the server than what I just downloaded. 14:32:24 G'morning all. 14:32:28 I'm going to download again and recompile on server. 14:32:54 I just counted, and my current ppc-threads branch is some 43 patches long. 14:33:05 Far too much work-in-progress inventory. :-/ 14:33:10 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:37 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:47 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 14:35:11 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-242-224.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:36:33 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 14:37:59 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:40:14 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-242-224.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 14:42:41 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:38 Shaftoe_: perhaps the file where the defvar lies is not loaded? 14:44:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@5351F837.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:45:18 pjb: actually, I've found that there are differences in the files between 1.0.0 and 1.1.0, and effectively, for the copy I had on the server, the varaiable defvar wasn't there. 14:45:47 But for some reason, the code in ./specials.lisp didn't complain when it tested an unbound variable. 14:46:06 (I mean, the code in ./conditions.lisp) 14:46:14 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:29 ok. 14:48:57 pjb: I will let it be for now and assume that my sanity is intact, and that indeed a variable can't be unbound without being named. As an aside though, I'm not exactly sure why (unless *catch-errors-p* ...) wasn't chunking with an unbound variable condition. 14:49:00 nyef: is that ppc work going into sbcl's mainline anytime soon? 14:49:20 Fade: It's currently slated for early 1.0.41.x, why? 14:49:26 just curious. 14:49:47 I have a bunch of stuff that lives in CCL on my powerpc machine. 14:50:01 xan_ [~xan@5351F837.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 I'm doing some cleanup now, and there's still the documentation to write... 14:50:07 *nod* 14:54:19 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:02:56 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@5351F837.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:04:06 are cffi interfaces thread-safe ? 15:04:48 galdor: CFFI itself is thread safe if implementation's FFI is thread safe... rest depends on your code and on the library 15:04:55 ok good 15:04:57 thank you 15:05:40 galdor: CFFI where possible transforms everything as close as possible to native FFI for your implementation 15:06:41 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:33 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:13:21 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-121-212.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:51 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-227-119.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:16:13 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.249.41] has joined #lisp 15:16:19 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 15:22:02 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23:31 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:14 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:00 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@192.83-213-161.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has quit [Remote 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[~codewad@c-24-17-171-213.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:00 -!- benny [~user@i577A194F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:24:36 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:59 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:27:08 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:45 JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-137-206.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:08 pix4 [~pixel@p4FC57AD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 *_3b`* should run sbcl with a smaller heap if i'm going to play with circular lists, everything getting swapped out is annoying :p 16:33:53 _3b`: Might be interesting to add something like a per-thread allocation limit that signals a continuable error if you exceed $n$ alloc regions. 16:34:47 <_3b`> yeah, i was thinking warnings/continuable errors when the heap hit a certain size might be nice 16:35:26 hey _3b 16:35:56 <_3b`> manic12: 'lo, were you trying to get 3bil to work? 16:36:25 *_3b`* wonders how sbcl externalizes circular lists 16:36:53 yes I was 16:36:58 <_3b`> (aside from the 'incorrectly' part, assuming i'm testing it right) 16:37:09 _3b`: Externalizes under what circumstances? 16:37:17 <_3b`> compile-file 16:37:20 'cause they should work Just Fine in fasls. 16:37:27 (should) 16:37:48 Well, unless you're doing a cross-compile. That has a good chance of sucking. 16:38:08 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:19 <_3b`> (eq '#1=(a . #1#) (cdr '(a . #1#))) <- that should be T, right? 16:38:36 Umm... No? 16:38:59 Well, it should if you just COMPILE it, but under COMPILE-FILE it's not guaranteed. 16:39:32 <_3b`> things that are EQ should stay EQ under compile-file 16:39:46 Nope. 16:40:00 <_3b`> clhs 3.2.4.4 16:40:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdd.htm 16:40:09 <_3b`> first sentence 16:40:30 *_3b`* may be completely confused though, getting literals working right in my compiler is making my brain hurt :p 16:40:37 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-10-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:43 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:47 "are the identical" what? 16:41:05 <_3b`> heh, hadn't noticed that part :p 16:41:21 it's repeated 16:41:33 Doesn't apply in this case. 16:41:44 The objects aren't identical. 16:41:53 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:42:04 <_3b`> #1= and #1# ? or am i missing something 16:42:14 [sbahra] [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:43 You're missing that '(a . #1#) isn't identical to #1# ? 16:42:47 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-23-156.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:43:02 <_3b`> ah, i did that again, didn't i 16:43:13 <_3b`> ok, thanks :) 16:43:17 oh, heh 16:43:25 Hrm. 16:43:41 Maybe it is broken, given the requirement for EQLness of substructures. 16:44:22 <_3b`> actually, which wins out of ' and ## ? 16:44:37 How do you mean? 16:44:44 They take effect at different times. 16:44:53 <_3b`> the #1# doesn't get quoted, correct? 16:45:12 <_3b`> (did i mention i've been getting confused by this stuff? :p ) 16:45:33 first you read, resolving #= and ## 16:45:34 faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:45:40 then you evaluate, resolving ' 16:46:38 <_3b`> ok, so i'm back to not seeing why they aren't identical then :/ 16:47:05 Bug? 16:47:21 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:30 _3b, where is the #= ? 16:47:55 (eq '#=(a . #1#) '#1#) ==> T 16:48:34 I mean (eq '#1=(a . #1#) '#1#) ==> T 16:49:10 <_3b`> Fare: right, but (eq '#1=(a . #1#) (cdr '(a . #1#))) => NIL when COMPILE-FILEd on sbcl 16:49:40 *_3b`* isn't sure if that is an sbcl bug, or a bug in my brain, or just unspecified 16:50:28 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:41 I'm beginning to believe that it's an SBCL bug. 16:51:10 <_3b`> it also doesn't coalesce circular lists that look the same to me, but are not identical (not sure if they are actually 'similar' or not), but i don't think that is required 16:51:31 It's not required, although permission is granted. 16:51:50 <_3b`> that's how i read it too 16:51:58 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:28 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 16:54:14 probably a sbcl bug. What are you trying to use read-time circular datastructures for? 16:54:29 <_3b`> conformance testing :p 16:54:48 are you expanding the pfdietz test suite? 16:55:01 <_3b`> no, just trying to find bugs in my toy lisp 16:55:13 <_3b`> (mostly using sacla tests at the moment) 16:55:23 -!- lusory [~bart@bb116-14-104-43.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:34 you have a toy lisp now? 16:55:36 is that a CL to JS compiler? 16:55:55 <_3b`> not-quite-cl to flash bytecode 16:56:07 isn't flash on its way out? 16:56:31 Fare: not really 16:56:31 <_3b`> on apple hardware maybe, but not very quickly elsewhere 16:56:31 for html5? 16:56:33 what with bad support on mobile devices 16:56:59 (eq '#1=(a . #1#) (cdr '(a . #1#))) ;; I think the first argument is pointing to a cons cell with a.#1# and the second argument is pointing to the pointer in the first argument? 16:57:03 JS seems to have a stronger support and community 16:57:03 Fare: JS is still rather unreliable, expecially for some advanced apps that won't fit usage model of mobile devices at all 16:57:08 so arg1 points to cons cell, arg 2 points to arg 1 16:57:08 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:57:35 Fare: otoh, Flash has (somehow) stable performance profile, no weird cross-browser differences etc. 16:57:42 <_3b`> Fare: js doesn't have nice ad networks for games, or nice game deployment, or fullscreen, or mouse capture 16:57:45 p_l: aren't there plenty of js frameworks to help in these cases? 16:57:50 altrhough I don't know the pointer arithmetic in CL, so never mind me 16:58:02 Fare: not with performance or stuff that is missing from browsers 16:58:10 <_3b`> js frameworks don't make matrix math on chrome sudden;y 10x faster :p 16:58:23 also, you can pack "HTML5" apps into flash to use its superior performance :) 16:58:30 _3b`: it'll get there soon ;) 16:58:49 <_3b`> pkhuong: consistently across browsers though? 16:58:59 *manic12* is trying to keep up 16:59:12 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 16:59:30 also, I'm not sure, but it seems that Flash 10 already has GPU acceleration... 16:59:35 _3b`: bah, iOS. Tradeoffs. 16:59:49 why won't the Explorer team just give up and adopt Webkit? it's not like they have any important source code in IE they need to keep closed 16:59:51 _3b`: also, WebGL. 17:00:14 <_3b`> pkhuong: yeah, WebGL is why i know firefox does matrix math 10x as fast as chomr/safari :p 17:00:20 but alas not even that will force-upgrade all the IE6 deployments out there 17:00:26 <_3b`> (not that it actually matters, since it seems slow elsewhere to balance it out) 17:00:49 <_3b`> also why i know it is a hassle to deploy JS apps :p 17:00:58 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-107.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:01:13 what's the best target to reach the most platforms? 17:01:20 (html5?) 17:01:25 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:01:30 <_3b`> depends on which users and which platforms 17:01:39 <_3b`> (and which features you need) 17:01:40 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 17:01:45 manic12: .txt ! 17:01:59 desktop users 17:01:59 With Flash, I can reliably deploy a web-based photoshop clone :> 17:02:07 graphics 17:02:24 <_3b`> well, if you only want desktops, flash will probably give you good coverage 17:02:27 *p_l* actually used a graphics suite done in Flash. Very fast 17:03:09 flash=>now, ???=>later 17:03:12 manic12: Flash, sadly, is probably the platform of choice 17:03:16 xan_ [~xan@62.140.137.154] has joined #lisp 17:03:32 manic12: thunder 17:03:45 <_3b`> depends on whether you care about all the people stuck on ie6 or not 17:04:03 <_3b`> yeah, i was thinking warnings/continuable errors when the heap hit a certain size might be nice 17:04:24 one of david lichtblau's many unmerged branches does exactly this 17:04:28 manic12: you need to say more about what do you want to achieve... personally, I always liked "normal" programs, and "Web" still doesn't sound well for me 17:04:31 I could demand a good browser 17:04:58 server based product configurator 17:05:06 <_3b`> Krystof: cool, if i make sbcl explode a few more times, i may have to go look for that :) 17:05:47 p_l: I used to also think all that hype about web programs was total BS 17:05:49 i just don't want to write it and then support a dying client 17:06:00 OliverUv: I'm not saying it's BS, it's just that I don't like it 17:06:07 now I have seen a good enough web programming environment to think differently, Google Web Toolkit 17:06:23 oh yeah, manic12, what kind of graphics are you out to deliver? GWT might be for you! 17:06:23 it got much, much better with frameworks like jQuery etc. but still.. 17:06:50 <_3b`> manic12: if you are writing a web app, that isn't particularly graphics heavy, normal js+html is probably good 17:06:53 semi-interactive 3d 17:07:00 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:07:06 there's gwtQuery or whatever it's called now, a lib for GWT that implements the same things as jQuery 17:07:09 :) 17:07:37 with much more efficiently compiled javascript, of course 17:07:40 <_3b`> ok, 3d is a bit harder if you want wide support 17:07:46 hmmm... does GWT's compiler uses Java bytecode or does it read Java's source? 17:07:53 source 17:07:57 damn 17:08:17 I have someone else interested in doing the gui, I'm going to work on the configurator portion 17:08:18 <_3b`> 3d is a hassle in flash too though, so hard to say 17:08:19 if you haven't seen the talks on deferred binding, which is a kickass compiling technique the GWT team invented, you should definitely check it out! 17:08:22 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 just search youtube or google video for deferred binding 17:08:35 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:08:47 it is probably the coolest piece of compiler technology i've seen (granted I haven't looked at compilers much) 17:08:53 OliverUv: You sure it's not "reinvented"? 17:09:17 nyef: The theory has probably been lying around, but it is applied for the first time 17:09:35 Again, are you sure? 17:09:45 _3b, I still want to try 3bil 17:09:47 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-121-212.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:09:48 though they had to name it by themselves, and I think they should know about most compiler tech 17:10:09 nyef: of course I'm not sure! There is way too much unused and obscure research for me to be aware of! 17:10:30 <_3b`> manic12: how is it breaking? 17:10:33 so, you shouldn't make bold claims if you're unsure 17:10:47 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 17:11:28 stassats: They seem like a good and honest team, but yeah I guess I should be de-hyping it 17:11:38 anyway it is the coolest stuff I've seen around 17:11:40 *_3b`* 's favorite bit of (useless) compiler tech is parallelizing recursion using the y combinator :p 17:12:46 _3b: the code walker 17:13:37 trying to walk a dotimes form in clarrays and tries to find a super walker, which isn't there 17:13:52 <_3b`> manic12: you are running with modern mode? might try without, i have a bad habit of missing shift-key timing so i leave some accidental Caps laying around if i don't catch them 17:13:56 no 17:14:10 ansi mode 17:14:23 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:14:36 <_3b`> ok, i guess next thing to try would be pasting a backtrace for me to look at 17:14:54 ok 17:15:00 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15:26 (promised myself I wouldn't hack this weekend) 17:16:07 <_3b`> can look at it some other time if you prefer 17:17:11 I enabled some of your debugging format statements 17:17:31 might need to undo those to give you a good backtrace 17:17:42 but i'll post the error message 17:18:48 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:04 i pasted it, lisppaste didn't say anything though 17:20:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112812 17:22:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-140-154.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 17:23:23 <_3b`> in the backtrace, do you see calls to recur? if so, what form is being passed to the top call(s) to that? 17:26:24 <_3b`> actually, i guess given what it prints in the error, that wouldn't help 17:26:31 i posted the backtrace 17:26:44 -!- merAch [~none@c-71-199-6-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:28:23 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:28:53 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 17:29:28 <_3b`> hmm, strange 17:30:37 merAch [~none@c-71-199-6-23.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:02 <_3b`> manic12: what does (special-operator-p 'dotimes) say? 17:31:16 francogrex [~user@109.130.69.76] has joined #lisp 17:31:40 returns special operator 17:31:57 <_3b`> it doesn't return NIL? 17:31:59 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:06 no 17:32:22 Hi all, I'm curious about this cahnnel; dan`b is the founder, does he still hang out here sometimes? 17:32:45 <_3b`> manic12: umm, complain to your lisp vendor then, i don't see DOTIMES in figure 3-2 :p 17:33:11 i'll tell halflich monday 17:33:36 francogrex: Haven't seen dan?b in ages. 17:33:50 <_3b`> (not that i should be relying on the host lisp for that anyway, so i'll probably patch that at some point) 17:34:14 nyef: it's funny how the owners of channels just stop caring after some time :) 17:34:37 they don't realize how big the seed the planted has become 17:34:40 OliverUv: "deferred binding" looks like an old concept (precompilation) serving as a workaround for lacking "dynamic binding".. it's also susceptible to combinatorical explosion 17:35:28 adeht: yes, that seems correct, they are aparently working on something to mitigate the combinatorial explosion 17:35:39 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:54 however, for most applications the combinations are limited to langauge regions and browser versions 17:35:58 francogrex: well, danb wasn't here not for so long to not see this 17:36:37 although if you get very advanced, you can start adding more things - it is for these cases they are working on that 17:37:13 ok 17:37:15 also, for debugging you usually just use one combination, only doing the full compile once you are ready to integrate 17:38:15 OliverUv: usually there are smarter ways to manage multiple varying aspects than generating all possible permutations ahead of time 17:38:41 <_3b`> manic12: see the annotation 17:38:45 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:49 as it turns out, those ways have already been explored by most other frameworks! 17:39:17 thanks 17:39:18 GWT are doing a lot of smart things the other frameworks are doing, too, it's not the only feature 17:39:21 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:57 <_3b`> manic12: let me know if that works, and i'll add it to the main repo once i've got my current code mess sorted out 17:40:12 the domain of problems they are using deferred binding for now are sensible, I'd say, though I am still uneducated and lacking in experience 17:40:13 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:25 ok, I will 17:41:10 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:44:41 -!- pix4 [~pixel@p4FC57AD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:46:50 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Quit: reboot and upgrades] 17:47:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@62.140.137.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:51:43 It's time to sort out the mess that is my .emacs and get clojure and common-lisp to live in something like harmony 17:52:13 -!- mauke [~mauke@p3m/member/mauke] has left #lisp 17:52:58 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:44 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 17:53:46 -!- vtz [~user@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:00 _3b it's complaining about illegal ignore declaration ( :key i think) 17:54:21 <_3b`> manic12: in sicl-cons-high? 17:54:22 but it got much farther 17:54:43 sacla-loop 17:55:02 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:09 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:12 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:55:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-140-154.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:27 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:28 <_3b`> hmm, backtrace? 17:59:17 pasted. 18:00:26 pasted err msg too 18:02:24 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:57 Good evening! 18:04:49 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 18:05:29 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:01 Hello beach. 18:10:02 nyef: Hey, what's up? 18:10:21 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:10:46 -!- Guest10162 [~WoodenBoy@87-194-114-233.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:53 <_3b`> manic12: if i'm reading that back trace correctly, i have no idea what is wrong... it is trying to compile with-temporaries right? that doesn't actually declare anything... 18:11:12 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 18:13:08 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:05 *_3b`* wonders if that file being in cl-user instead of some specific package is a problem 18:14:31 *manic12* got a phone call will be off soon 18:14:38 beach: Not much. Sorting out the patch series for ppc-threads. 18:15:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-59-222.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:17:21 <_3b`> manic12: when you get back to messing with code, might try adding (in-package :avm2-compiler) to the top of sacla-loop.lisp 18:17:33 ok 18:18:04 navigator [~navigator@p5489534E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:40 Can someone give me their take on thisquestion: http://francoatgrex.tripod.com/ it's about metaprogramming but I don't totally belive the answer I got (you can /query me with opinion if yoiu don't want to discuss this here). thanks 18:20:53 <_3b`> manic12: if that doesn't help, i'd guess try macroexpanding the destructuring-bind in with-temporaries, and see if anything looks odd there 18:21:59 What I want is to give an example macro in lisp to those SAS users and show them that they will not be able to do that in SAS 18:22:30 "SAS"? 18:22:38 scandinavian airline services 18:22:58 nyef: yes it might as well be scandinavian airline services 18:23:14 francogrex: I'm sorry. Just what the heck are you talking about, and what is this SAS? 18:23:38 it's the statistical software wihich has its own programming language where they also use macros 18:23:51 <_3b`> francogrex: to some extent it sounds like you are close to falling into the turing tarpit with that discussion 18:23:56 But what they appear to be saying is that there's some level of metaprogramming available, but not what level. 18:24:11 It does seem to be a conversation well worth staying out of. 18:24:17 but I think they are very wrong in thinking that their macros are quivalent to those in lisp 18:24:30 Where did they say that they believed that? 18:24:33 yes that's why i didn't want it here 18:24:45 well the C++ templates are all compile-time, not runtime 18:24:46 I mean at work all the time 18:25:00 so you can't, for example, do something in templates based on user input 18:25:24 _3b`: yes I want to fall in it with my collegues but not here; here I just want an opinion 18:26:28 <_3b`> francogrex: well, if you can execute code at compile time, you have all the power of lisp macros 18:26:37 <_3b`> (if not the convenience) 18:27:19 <_3b`> and if you can run compilation in stages, mixed with running what was just compiled, that is close enough too 18:27:41 and why would they care if their software is great for whatever they are doing? 18:27:41 hmm 18:27:41 *marcus_* follows nyef's advice and stays out. 18:28:01 _3b`: but lisp is magical :((((( 18:28:13 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:30 <_3b`> as far as examples of big lisp macros, maybe loop, series, iterate, screamer... 18:28:48 _3b`: is there a simple example to test that or do i just ask them to try what you have written to me above? 18:28:55 ok 18:29:32 when you define application frames and such in CLIM it creates functions for you to modify them with, based on the names of your frames 18:29:59 how about I ask them create a "while" macro, it should be simple 18:30:14 so the macro (define-application-frame my-frame ...) will also have side-effects of creating functions like define-my-frame-command 18:30:23 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:38 OliverUv: Definitely. 18:30:39 francogrex: do-while is a good example macro, yeah 18:31:14 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:31:17 *_3b`* would also argue that the quoted answer is wrong... the important feature of CL macros are that they /aren't/ a 'language in their own right', they are exactly CL 18:31:38 or just ask them to define if, then show that it can be used to terminate recursion 18:31:39 ok thnx; i'm almost sure they use the word macro very freely and they won't be able to recreate our while macro even 18:31:55 <_3b`> as opposed to for example c++ where you have some completely unrelated metaprogramming languages built out of CPP or templates or whatever 18:32:03 _3b`: yes ok, the quote was just to invite them to discuss 18:32:09 OliverUv: An application frame is basically just a class (that happens to inherit from clim:application-frame). You typically access its slots using normal accessors or slot-value. 18:32:18 for that, they absolutely must not eval the else-branch, which is exactly the strength of macros 18:32:37 beach: yeah, I know, I was just giving examples of what macros can do that functions can't 18:32:43 3b: being able to execute code at compile time certainly doesn't mean you have all the power of lisp macros.. 18:32:54 i agree with adeht 18:33:05 OliverUv: Oh, sorry. I thought you had a question. Missed the context! :( 18:33:12 3b: that's more akin to some eval-when facility ;) 18:33:20 <_3b`> OliverUv: that 'strength' is more or less just covering a corresponding 'weakness' in cl, IF is easy to build out of lambdas for example 18:33:45 <_3b`> adeht: well, i was sort of also assuming the ability to include files mentioned in the link 18:34:18 <_3b`> adeht: so full form would be 'run code during compilation, and in some way feed the results to the compiler' 18:34:43 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:47 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 francogrex: I would not be surprised if this SAS had something exactly like lisp macros. It is not an especially unique feature. 18:35:05 <_3b`> like for example building a program in C, running it to generate more source, then compiling that 18:35:30 <_3b`> you could even argue that CLisp is just C metaprogramming :p 18:36:00 actually, I recall C being used "with" macros quite often 18:36:14 marcus_: I really doubt it though, I'll ask them for demonstrating an example 18:36:18 *beach* once presented an in-house implementation of Lisp in Pascal as just Pascal meta-programming. 18:36:20 it's just much mor cumbersome than Lisp 18:36:35 3b: now that's what I call a turing tar pit ;) 18:36:51 _3b`: with all that effort they are going through, you might just say SAS supports macros because it is possible to implement common lisp in it 18:36:57 <_3b`> adeht: more or less my point :) 18:36:59 francogrex: out of curiosity.. why is this important? 18:37:19 adeht put it much more eloquently than I, good job. 18:37:30 <_3b`> so unless you have some very specific point to make, i wouldn't expect to convince anyone 18:37:35 it's a discussion, we're not hurting anyone, it's not like we are wasting our time on this while instead we could solve the problem of world hunger meanwhile 18:37:52 -!- benny [~user@i577A1B0C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:02 *_3b`* should be solving the problem of circular literals breaking my compiler :p 18:38:06 francogrex: Solving world hunger could very well make the whole world economic system collapse. So don't do that :) 18:38:22 marcus_: because they are trying to pass their macro as the same as lisp macros 18:38:53 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:53 I really don't belive it because i have seen how it works, it's just they use it as we use functions 18:39:05 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:22 francogrex: It looks like C macros to me. 18:39:25 marcus_: Fortunately, world hunger isn't a technical problem. If it were, it would already have been solved. 18:39:49 nyef: But then we would have the endless "is this food free or open?" discussion :) 18:40:34 marcus_: I'd say solving world hunger takes priority over keeping an economy based on scarcity running 18:40:34 francogrex: Actually it looks more like C functions. hmmm. 18:40:57 we can build much better economies after the world stabilizes again 18:41:04 but I believe this is slightly off topic! 18:41:13 Yes I was joking. 18:41:42 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:41:48 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:00 francogrex: Just ask 'em if they have macros for writing macros. 18:42:02 speaking of knitting, NSFW> http://www.iltasanomat.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/uutinen.asp?id=2228088 18:42:24 marcus_: ok 18:42:25 <_3b`> yeah, looks like with sas vs cl macros, it would be more a 'convenience' argument than 'power' 18:42:54 <_3b`> separate language, operating on strings vs same language operating on AST 18:42:57 isn't it always, I mean between turing complete languages? 18:43:26 I could argue for that turing complete version of minesweeper 18:43:43 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 18:43:50 hi, is it possible to define 'let' without using not macros? 18:44:13 ? 18:44:14 pdelgallego: No. 18:44:21 apparently it's possible to ask a question without not using double negation 18:44:27 pdelgallego: What do you mean? LET is already defined. 18:44:33 -!- maetbag [~user@95-29-1-127.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:44:36 #lisp.. sometimes. 18:44:39 You can't define your own let without macros, no. 18:44:43 He means if he can (defun my-let ...) :) 18:44:45 and have that work. 18:44:51 lexical bindings etc 18:44:59 evalution order etc. 18:45:04 haha yeah that too 18:45:05 typos also. 18:45:21 marcus_: I am impressed that you know that that's what pdelgallego means, because I seem to never know what these questions mean. 18:45:38 beach: It's a talent I have acquired from working with people the last year :) 18:45:53 beach, I am writing my own interpreter and I would like to write let as a specail normal form, but without depending of the 'let' of the hosting language 18:45:58 marcus_: You work with PEOPLE? Oh dear! 18:46:23 pdelgallego: There is no such thing as a "special normal form". 18:46:24 pdelgallego: Wait what.. How are you implementing your other normal forms? 18:46:28 when making really obvious typos, that you want to correct but which the reader wouldn't gain knowledge from your correcting them, the handy acronym TPS can be usd 18:46:31 tps 18:46:32 beach: Indeed. loving every minute of it :) 18:46:37 as in That Plus Spelling 18:46:48 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:49 OliverUv: thanks! 18:47:05 pdelgallego: eh. special forms. not normal forms :( 18:47:15 no problem! 18:47:17 pdelgallego: Are you implementing Common Lisp? 18:47:22 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:47:37 marcus_, beach, I am implementing a subset of Scheme. 18:47:43 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:46 doing SICP eh? 18:47:59 pdelgallego: Why do you want to avoid using macros though? 18:48:00 OliverUv, Lisp in Small Pieces 18:48:08 pdelgallego: Then you are out of luck, because this channel is mostly about Common Lisp. 18:48:10 oh, never heard of 18:48:22 <_3b`> LET has different evaluation rules from a normal form, so it pretty much has to be a macro or special-form 18:48:27 OliverUv: Never heard of LiSP? 18:48:27 scheme's let works the same as CL's 18:48:35 beach: nope 18:48:40 OliverUv: With declarations and all? 18:48:48 OliverUv: It is a nice book :) 18:48:51 minion: Tell OliverUv about LiSP. 18:48:51 OliverUv: please look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 18:48:59 beach: iirc, but I can't guarantee it 18:49:01 OliverUv: and if you're like beach you can read the new edition! 18:49:03 marcus_, becuase I trying to keep it as simple as possible 18:49:09 OliverUv: The English version is much better than the original in French. 18:49:31 pdelgallego: Right. But implementing special forms without using macros.. seems to make it harder really :) 18:49:45 beach: Have you read the second ed. ? 18:49:45 OliverUv: Scheme doesn't have CL declarations. 18:49:55 marcus_: Nope. Have you? 18:50:26 beach: No. I looked at the table of contents and it seemed.. not really worth it. 18:50:31 only available in the french too. 18:50:32 krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:38 Wanted to know if it was worth the buy. 18:50:38 marcus_, I guess I spend last our trying to go from (let ((var val) ...) exp1 exp2 ...) to ((lambda (var ...) exp1 exp2 ...) val ...) 18:50:51 marcus_: I could deal with the French. But I kind of know what to expect. 18:50:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-59-222.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:51:09 pdelgallego: And to do that, in CL, you need to change how stuff is evaluated. so you'd macro that up. 18:51:23 beach: Right. ok. I'll spend that money on another book :) 18:51:34 marcus_, I guess I have no other option then. 18:51:36 pdelgallego: That's not a problem. 18:51:53 beach, how it would be solved? 18:51:55 oh right, the 1-lisp vs 2-lisp issue might be something to care about when comparing scheme vs cl implementation of let 18:51:58 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA9290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:08 OliverUv: LiSP does a lot of that :) 18:52:20 pdelgallego: Just write a macro. 18:52:33 though both interpreters should have some standard way of saying "evaluate this within this new lexical environment" 18:52:36 announcing the next release of my Common Lisp roguelike, Menace of the Mines. The major new features are magic and dungeon levels and the website (along with the rest of the features) is at http://motm.sourceforge.net/ 18:52:41 benny [~user@i577A80D3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:48 beach, ... yeah I was trying to avoud macros ... but I guess is the better option here. 18:53:06 pdelgallego: Unless you go with... (let '((....))) 18:53:19 *p_l* doesn't see much problem in implementing special forms without macros... 18:53:20 pdelgallego: If you don't want a macro, then you would just write it in the language that your implementation was written in. 18:53:43 p_l: How'd you do it then? 18:54:15 <_3b`> marcus_: the compiler/interpreter knows about them... that is what makes them 'special' 18:54:19 p_l, how wound you do it then? 18:54:22 krzysz00: I was hoping for screenshots :) 18:54:39 _3b`: Yes. But if they don't know about 'em. and you're implementing them at the repl. 18:54:39 pdelgallego: Your question is strange because you are not using CL, and you are not telling us what the implementation language is. We know you are implementing Scheme, but that's not enough, because if you want to implement something that cannot be expressed portably in the host language, you have to resort to the implementation language. 18:54:56 a rule of thumb when you're implementing your interpreter, pdelgallego, when evaluation order needs to be changed, and you therefore can't use functions, prefer to do it in a macro rather than a special-form of it's own 18:54:58 <_3b`> marcus_: if you can't modify the compiler, you need macros 18:55:03 marcus_: inside compiler :) 18:55:05 beach, sorry I using r5rs. 18:55:08 right ya. 18:55:18 pdelgallego: Then you are in the wrong channel. 18:55:20 Which is actually what pdelgallego is doing. writing the compiler/interpreter. 18:55:22 so it should be ok :) 18:55:27 it is better to keep your interpreter as clean as possible, so if you can implement it as macro rather than special-form, you should 18:55:27 pdelgallego: This channel is about Common Lisp. 18:55:28 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-250-135.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:55:45 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:53 pdelgallego: #scheme might be of more help :) 18:56:00 i *could* update the screenshots 18:56:10 beach, Ok didn't know that. I though it was all kind of lisp 18:56:15 ... but UI-wise, not much change. 18:56:31 krzysz00: I haven't seen any screenshots at all :( 18:56:39 oh wait. 18:56:40 n/m 18:56:44 where have you loked. 18:56:50 found it! 18:57:15 marcus_: gr8 18:57:24 *marcus_* downloads. 18:58:07 while and unless are ok but does anyone have something a little more complex, yet not as complex as iterate or loop? 18:59:00 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 ONCE-ONLY ? 18:59:27 * 18:59:48 francogrex: do-list 18:59:48 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:16 do-times might be easier 19:00:44 OliverUv: but those already exist 19:00:45 or you could try your hand on cond 19:00:46 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:00:54 francogrex: who cares! make them yourself 19:01:02 exercise your macro muscles 19:01:17 i could, just wanted something nonexistant 19:01:22 ah 19:01:23 francogrex: You can do exactly the same stuff in SAS as you can in lisp. 19:01:48 marcus_: are you positively sure? do you have an example? 19:02:08 francogrex: ok, make a macro that creates a queue 19:02:13 I am positively sure. You might have to jump through some odd hoops, but I am 100% sure. 19:02:20 I don't have an example. 19:02:39 it should work like this: you say (create-queue franco-queue) 19:02:44 francogrex: write a macro that writes a macro. All is well. 19:02:55 marcus_: it means they can extend their language 19:03:01 ? 19:03:05 you should then be able to say (push-franco-queue 'mything) 19:03:18 and then (pop-framco-queue) => MYTHING 19:03:24 should work automatically 19:03:33 francogrex: sure, why not. 19:04:37 though if they don't have the source code for their compiler/evaluator, they might need to re-implement it in order to get run-time defined macros working? 19:04:43 Sure. 19:04:52 and have code recompile itself and whatever. 19:05:02 that's a lot of hoops 19:05:05 sure is. 19:06:18 francogrex: or a bit easier, create a macro like (create-counter francounter 0) 19:06:19 hmm, well then the avregae user doesn't have the source code 19:06:43 then it should work like (francounter) => 0, (francounter++), (francounter) => 1 19:07:01 OliverUv: not bad 19:07:52 OliverUv: Only one or two more hoops than CL needs to make a decent crossplatform GUI ;) 19:08:40 The ultimate example of a macro that produces a macro is DEFMACRO. 19:08:42 marcus_: What do you mean by that? 19:08:50 beach: I'm joking! 19:09:07 marcus_: Yeah, but I didn't get the joke. 19:09:42 beach: I was poking fun at the not so 2010 state of crossplatform GUI programming available in the free lisps. 19:10:05 marcus_: I see. 19:10:32 marcus_: haha yeah, but consider the difference! One gives you a crossplatform GUI, the other gives you macros with which to implement said GUI 19:10:37 astalla [~astalla@93-36-226-77.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:10:57 marcus_: maybe you saw this: mail.cmu.edu.tw/~yufenli/.../SAS/WHY%20USE%20MACROS.ppt 19:11:00 but yeah, CLIM is starting to feel less and less lovely 19:11:13 OliverUv: In what way? 19:11:33 sorry bad link 19:12:00 it has been specified for common-use-case scenarios of the mid nineties 19:12:20 (Badly specified, at that.) 19:12:45 so although it is possible to make something modern with it, it certainly hasn't been made for it 19:12:49 Watch out for CLIM3!!! 19:12:57 haha 19:13:01 but its design is a nice showcase of CLOS-oriented thinking 19:13:09 OliverUv: That's not a joke. I am working on it. 19:13:15 <_3b`> beach: have you released new info about clim3 aside from screenshots? 19:13:19 beach: I am on the edge of my seat! 19:13:22 yeah i know 19:13:48 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:48 this: http://mail.cmu.edu.tw/~yufenli/class/SAS/WHY%20USE%20MACROS.ppt 19:14:04 _3b`: No, but things are shaping up in my head (and in the form of code). I know what the lower layer should look like, and I know how to use the concept of a layout manager. 19:14:41 <_3b`> beach: cool, hopefully some of it will be adaptable to the things for which i want something clim-like 19:14:55 _3b`: You would have to tell me what they are. 19:14:57 slide 10 and slide 23 contradict each others 19:15:11 *_3b`* hasn't yet found time to learn enough clim to figure out which parts of it i want or not 19:15:13 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-137-206.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:15:55 _3b`: You have to learn to use "he" rather than "I" when you type /me. Otherwise it looks pretty strange. 19:16:07 <_3b`> beach: i do it intentionally :p 19:16:13 :/ 19:16:34 WHY 19:16:34 *_3b`* isn't sure exactly why though 19:16:39 haha 19:16:58 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:19 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:29 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:36 xb 19:20:36 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:39 oops 19:22:27 <_3b`> beach: the 2 main things i want to look at something clim-like for are flash and GL apps 19:24:28 _3b`: how far advanced is your compiler? 19:25:23 *p_l* would love something that would allow JQuery-like approach for GUI in CL 19:25:24 <_3b`> p_l: it has most of the conses dictionary now, thanks to beach 19:25:44 <_3b`> p_l: still misses major features like special vars 19:27:06 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:15 <_3b`> almost has working literals, and some of the infrastructure for setf is done 19:28:15 -!- meder [~meder@c-71-206-10-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:30:13 meder [~meder@c-71-206-10-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:57 _3b`: I would be very interested in your opinions about CLIM3. It won't be long before I make some more stuff public. 19:31:27 _3b`: And I am very glad that I have a first, devoted, customer of SICL. 19:31:43 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:33:22 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:27 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 19:34:34 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:37:25 _3b`: I take it you have seen the setf expanders of SICL, right? 19:37:25 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:49 <_3b`> beach: yeah, haven't added any except what is in cons-high yet though 19:38:03 _3b`: OK, just checking. 19:38:09 -!- meder [~meder@c-71-206-10-49.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:38:13 p_l, is there a good summary somewhere of what is the JQuery approach to GUI? 19:38:20 <_3b`> that is probably next on my list after i finish literals (and make SETF actually use setf-expansions) 19:38:50 deepfire: basically, imagine having a way to query the interface using stuff similar to CSS selectors 19:39:19 I found an equivalent written in Java for Swing :) 19:39:29 p_l, is this the single distinguishing quality? 19:39:31 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:50 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:30 <_3b`> after that i probably need to switch back to trying to write end-product apps rather than working on the compiler for a while though :) 19:40:31 deepfire: that was what I intended to ask about - JQuery itself is just a library to allow simple coding of HTML/JS stuff (so of course it follows HTML DOM etc.) 19:40:34 deepfire: I think the one quality that sets it apart is that you don't have to care whether you're matching just one element or several 19:40:50 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.69.76] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:40:55 danlei [~user@pD9E2CC5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:56 Non-immediate rendering, with flexible ways of naming the subtrees of the scene graph -- that's how it looks like so far to me. 19:41:04 also, you can alter your UI behavior by adjusting classes on your elements. very nice, that. 19:41:25 sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:14 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:11 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:44:50 p_l: care to share the Swing JQuery-like lib? 19:44:52 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.199.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:45:47 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:49 astalla: wait, I'll find the link back 19:45:59 thanks 19:46:39 that could be really handy when I'll resume work on my CL-Swing library 19:46:41 http://squery.posterous.com/why-should-js-coders-have-all-the-fun-0 19:48:20 I like how GWT started out with Swing-like ui building and then quickly realized it sucks 19:48:48 so they built UiBinder, where you use html-like xml to define the object hierarchies, and then CSS to place the things 19:49:09 I feel like I am a GWT fanboy, I have to quit talking about it 19:49:16 starting now 19:49:39 OliverUv: oh, haven't heard about it, I had used the Swing-style code... 19:50:14 lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has joined #lisp 19:50:23 p_l: it is so lovely 19:50:33 your GWT code becomes oh so clean 19:50:39 removes just about all the boilerplate 19:51:25 If you haven't heard about that... have you heard about how you definitely should be using Model-View-Presenter and an Event Bus based architecture? 19:51:30 carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.232] has joined #lisp 19:52:06 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:52:13 heh 19:52:14 OliverUv: nope, but I wouldn't mind hearing that out 19:52:31 -!- lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:46 *p_l* has to finish his library for linking CL+Hunchentoot and JS libs 19:53:01 what's hunchentoot? 19:53:10 minion: hunchentoot? 19:53:11 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a robust and easy to use HTTP server. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 19:53:29 Zik [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has joined #lisp 19:54:19 p_l, Revolve: take a look at this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDuhR18-EdM 19:54:30 (best practices of GWT, from Google IO 2009) 19:54:48 -!- navigator [~navigator@p5489534E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:55:52 OliverUv: is google paying you for the advertisement? 19:56:06 i wish 19:56:39 they should be! I am fanboying for them handsomely, as though I were an Apple devotee 19:57:08 I have mixed feelings for GWT. 19:57:27 OliverUv: though i don't think here is the right place 19:57:55 yeah, which is why I intended to stop talking about it 19:58:20 so yeah Revolve and p_l I am happy to talk more about it but we can do that in PM 19:58:37 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 19:58:59 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:46 -!- [sbahra] is now known as Samy 20:03:27 beach: what's CLIM3? 20:03:46 *p_l* would love a declarative UI library for CL :3 20:03:57 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:13 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:35 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:06:32 p_l: ...mcclim? 20:07:05 *nyef* is... still badly underwhelmed by McCLIM. 20:08:25 -!- sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:09:14 _3b`: What would you -do- with a CLIM-like system for GL applications? 20:10:11 dnolen__ [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-79.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:10 p_l: do you know about my (very unfinished) library, "Snow"? http://common-lisp.net/project/snow 20:11:27 stassats: CLIM looks like fine proposition for a *backend* of such approach, IMHO 20:11:29 here's a simple example: http://common-lisp.net/project/snow/examples/swixml/helloworld.lisp.html 20:13:19 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:14:20 Fare: Short explanation: the successor of CLIM2. Longer explanation: I feel uniquely well placed to identify the shortcomings of CLIM2 (since I implemented a large part of it), and I know the shortcomings of McCLIM and the mistakes we made (I still consider it great though), so I think I should attempt to design the successor. I would have loved the help of gilberth, but he is not around very much any more. 20:15:25 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:31 astalla: now imagine (frame ...) completely outside with-gui, coupled with CSS-like styling engine and JQuery-like ways to access the objects that create the UI 20:15:48 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:27 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-14149.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:08 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:17:15 urandom_ [~user@p548A7C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:49 beach: Oh! I didn't know you were involved in producing McClim! Then I actually do have hopes about CLIM3! 20:17:53 p_l: frame outside with-gui could be possible, but a bit overkill for now. There's already CSS-like layout (no classes though, and you can only control layout, not other properties; further, you can't change it afterwards, due to how Swing layout works) 20:18:18 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:18:29 adding JQuery-like capabilities would be really nice, I hadn't thought about that 20:19:43 beach: will CLIM3 work well on android-like devices? 20:19:54 OliverUv: Look for copyright Robert Strandh in the source files of McCLIM. 20:19:55 on a JS backend? 20:20:09 (or flash backend) 20:20:59 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:08 Fare: I have no idea because I have no idea what those devices require. I am not designing it with a lot of requirements on what backed you use though, and as with CLIM2, different backends are accounted for. 20:21:11 *stassats* isn't ready to wait 5 years for CLIM3 20:21:41 stassats: Trying to put pressure on me? :) 20:22:23 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-250-135.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 20:23:19 i'm just thinking that it would be great to have a better CLIM, but it's not going to be very soon 20:24:00 seeing how long it took to get mcclim, which didn't include writing a specification, and it isn't in the best shape yet 20:24:14 oh, Robert Strandh sounds Scandinavian, was it you that said to say hi to Haraldsson a few days ago? 20:24:26 OliverUv: Yes. 20:24:40 cool, now that I have a name I'll definitely mention you 20:25:23 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-76-206.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:30 beach: so were you a D:are or C:are? What happened to you after examen? 20:25:43 OliverUv: The first-ever graduate of D. 20:26:14 OliverUv: But Anders knows me very well so don't worry. 20:27:10 wow! 20:27:16 stassats: I am a university professor. My mission is to learn and to publish and teach about my findings. If that is useful to others, that's great. If not, that's too bad. 20:28:12 OliverUv: I worked for ASEA (now ABB) for a few years, went to the US for a PhD, got a job as a professor in Bordeaux, and have been here ever since. 20:28:23 ah nice! I worked as a high-school-programming teacher for a year, and spent a semester as a lab assistant in the lisp course (and logic and beginners' c++) 20:28:39 Teaching, in my opinion, is one of the most noble pursuits! 20:28:52 mcclim is useful to an extent, but it could be more useful 20:28:58 Bordeaux, which state? 20:29:03 OliverUv: Indeed. A bit frustratigng from time to time, but still very satisfying. 20:29:11 Bordeaux, TX 20:29:24 cool 20:29:24 OliverUv: It is called France in most languages I know. 20:29:32 ah, ok 20:29:34 maybe i should get cvs access to commit my own patches, seeing how mcclim's launchpad isn't very active 20:29:38 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-239-29.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 20:29:39 OliverUv: Don't listen to Krystof. 20:30:08 yeah the middle-aged teachers I spent a lot of time talking to during my teacher-year all said that teaching is a difficult balancing of enthusiasm 20:30:14 too little and you will be a boring and bad teacher 20:30:14 OliverUv: France, Frankrike, Frankreich, Pháp. 20:30:22 too much and you will burn yourself out when you meet unmotivated students 20:30:30 (I once had an e-mail from someone asking where Cambridge was... and when informed that it was in England, mailed back "no i mean what state is it in") 20:30:39 haha 20:30:47 Nice! 20:31:03 Krystof: ... Massachusetts? 20:31:09 thanks :-) 20:31:51 I could definitely see myself teaching more in the future, many of the students I had as a TA told me a few months afterwards how they missed me, because their next TAs were not as motivated 20:31:57 I enjoy it a lot 20:33:15 Once, when I rented a car at the Raleigh-Durham airport, I sais I live in France, and they asked "is that in England, sir?", so I said "No, France is a country", and the young woman said "Well, there you see how much I know, ha, ha". 20:33:37 astalla: I had seen a sort-of equivalent to XPath for S-Expressions, except it was for Ruby 20:33:58 beach: christ 20:34:48 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:34:49 OliverUv: I see what you mean, but it fact it is not as weird as it seems, given that US states are the size of European countries. 20:35:20 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:26 the reason I thought it would be a Bordeaux in the US was "went to the US for a PhD, got a job as a professor in Bordeaux" and the massive immigration causing New York (York being an English town) etc 20:35:32 OliverUv: Ask you average Västgöte where Iowa is located and they have no clue. 20:35:57 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:36:03 yeah, I guess 20:36:28 OliverUv: In CS, we have the privilege of being able to travel a lot. 20:36:53 *beach* goes to spend time with his (admittedly small) family. 20:37:20 beach: Indeed! I am currently working for LiU from my girlfriends' parents' old apartment in Taiwan 20:37:27 enjoy 20:37:53 OliverUv: You are physically in Taiwan? Nice! 20:37:55 s/girlfriends'/girlfriend's/ 20:38:00 p_l: I wouldn't do it with xpath over sexprs, rather I'd walk the GUI component tree 20:38:01 Yes I am! 20:38:04 *beach* really vanishes. 20:38:14 really enjoy! 20:38:18 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-208.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:27 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-254-230.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:38:35 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:39:58 p_l: sexprs are just source code, they don't exist anymore at run-time (though I was planning to store in widgets a reference to the defining expression for debugging/documentation purposes) 20:40:42 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 20:41:23 astalla: yeah, but you could call it "list path expressions" :) 20:41:23 lm3620 [lm3620@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-qceirexqjurwekje] has joined #lisp 20:41:48 Does anyone know how to get the snap4 virual lisp machine to work under ubuntu? 20:42:12 lm3620: "with difficulty"? 20:42:32 lm3620: grab an *old* ubuntu, preferably with X.Org <7.x 20:42:35 lm3620, what's particularly hard about it under ubuntu? 20:42:44 I got it to compile. but when I try to run it it says it can't load the .vlod file. 20:42:46 Oh, right. X incompatibility. That was it. 20:42:47 Fare: modern software versions? 20:42:58 snap4 is a mess 20:43:25 cause it's a binary translation of (nearly) handwritten assembly 20:43:31 can I downgrade my x.0rg 20:43:51 *stassats* discovers :direct-superclasses option, why didn't he see it before 20:43:56 p_l: "list path" as in: path is expressed with sexps rather than xml? sure, that's the plan :) 20:44:10 lm3620, I run everything as root 20:44:20 lm3620, so it knows to use the tunnel, etc. 20:44:21 is their something better then snap4 fare 20:44:44 lm3620: you don't want to. If any, try getting some old X.Org (6.8?) and compile it with only Xephyr for output, then get snap4 to use its X11 libs and use 6.8's Xephyr 20:44:48 nyef: what would I need to do to get it to load the .vlod 20:44:53 lm3620: nope 20:45:46 lm3620: No clue, unfortunately. The one time I tried using snap4 was on a 32-bit machine with qemu, and that didn't work so well. 20:45:59 what's Xephyr? 20:46:17 Fare: it's an Xserver that uses another X11 server for output 20:46:33 I have a .vlod -- indeed I haven't used snap4 for a while, and I find it's blocked after drawing the initial rectangle for the screen :-( 20:46:42 it's more advanced than its daddy Xnest 20:47:09 It works, I just get a can't find .vlod error while the vlod is in the directory. 20:47:20 nyef, will you be there tomorrow? 20:47:32 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:00 ikki [~ikki@189.139.97.228] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 enera: Unable to open world file Genera-8.5.vlod 20:48:32 No such file or directory 20:48:43 as root 20:48:56 genera: Can't TUNSETIFF for VLM network interface #0 20:48:57 Operation not permitted 20:49:03 when not root 20:49:19 lm3620, do you have a .vlod at all? 20:49:32 How do I specify where Genera-8.6.volid is. Yes I do. 20:49:36 sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:43 edit the genera.world: /DL/genera/snap4/Genera-8-5.vlod entry of your .VLM 20:49:55 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:50:04 ok. 20:50:04 run as root to have tunnel rights 20:50:12 as for X breakage... I dunno 20:50:23 it is in ~/Lispm/snap4/ directory 20:50:58 so I would type in genera.world: ~/Lispm/snap4/Genera-8-5.vlod right 20:54:55 you might want to expand that ~ 20:55:09 and make sure the file exists (ls -l it) 20:55:35 Even when I use /home/wakko9warner/Lispm/snap4/Genera-8.5.vlod it still can't find file :-( 20:55:44 and that is the full directory it is in. 20:55:46 does the file exist? 20:55:48 ls -l ? 20:55:49 yes. 20:56:13 are you in the directory where the .VLM file is? 20:56:15 -rw-r--r-- 1 wakko9warner wakko9warner 54804480 2006-08-07 13:18 Genera-8-5.vlod 20:56:32 you can strace the process to see what it does 20:56:33 do I need to change the permissions. 20:56:53 I am in the directory with the .VLM file, it is in same directory. 20:57:13 and the VLM_debugger is also there. 20:57:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:57:25 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-61.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:57:38 sudo ./genera 20:57:38 processor 0xffffffa60 20:57:38 RunPOST 20:57:38 [iInterpret] 20:57:38 0xffffffa60 20:57:39 ivory 0x1000000000 20:57:39 epc 0x1f0000000, fp 0xfffffc000, lp 0xfffffc018, sp 0xfffffc010, cp (nil) 20:57:40 icachebase 0x7f2a1618c000, endicache 0x7f2a16d8c000 20:57:40 I guess I'm done!! r1 0x2 20:57:41 genera (POST): OK 50000 447 20:57:41 keycode1 23, keycode2 0 20:57:42 InitializeNetworkChannels() 20:57:42 MaxNetworkInterfaces 8 20:57:43 0 myAddress 0a000002 20:57:54 p_l: if you have it, can you make a tarball of all that? 20:58:13 I have a tar of it. 20:58:31 downloaded it a few days ago. 20:58:35 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 20:58:48 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:03:04 I mean, of the old X stuff to make snap4 woek 21:03:30 yes what about it. I need help getting it to work. 21:04:31 genera: Can't TUNSETIFF for VLM network interface #0 21:04:31 Device or resource busy 21:04:40 what does this error mean :-( 21:05:29 I used sudo ./genera -w Genera-8-5.vlod 21:05:37 seems like an ioctl to unset the interface, and error is that it's in use 21:06:16 hmm, when i have (:default-initargs :direct-superclasses (list class)) in a metaclass, i don't have that class as a superclass when i use defclass, but i do get it when using make-instance 21:06:23 i must be missing something 21:07:15 so far so good I got it to work with the -w flag :-) 21:07:15 lm3620, did you modprobe tun ? 21:08:17 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:19 got into the cold load stream :-) so I hope all goes well 21:10:46 running up to get an old set of symbolics manuals. 21:11:45 asarch [~asarch@189.188.150.8] has joined #lisp 21:12:05 How do I get out of the cold load stream and into the front end processor. 21:12:19 Fare: nope, I wasn't desperate enough :) 21:12:32 I actually have a chance of running the original VLM2 21:12:57 I just need more RAM and a graphic card, I think I can get necessary install media 21:13:50 so, how am i supposed to specify the default superclass from a metaclass? 21:14:50 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:51 by adding a method to ensure-class-using-class? 21:16:55 I got snap4 to work I am now in the "cold load stream" how to I get the Genera VLM to load. 21:17:13 p_l: what's VLM2? A successor to snap4's VLM? 21:17:35 and how much RAM and gfx card do you need to run decades-old software, anyway? 21:18:06 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@40.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:18:21 Fare: the graphics card should be able to handle the resolution, at least (: 21:18:47 (modern virtual machine software lets you use scrolling if the full screen doesn't fit, though (-:) 21:19:44 Fare: VLM is the onein openGenera 1.0, VLM2 is the one in OpenGenera 2.0 and which was sort-of translated to form snap4 21:19:52 hi Fare 21:20:31 Fare: as for graphic card- I need one that works without needing BWX instructions and I need more RAM than 32MB 21:21:08 slava, lo 21:21:13 however, finding RAM suitable for four-channel bank of 36bit SIMMs proved hard to do 21:21:46 32MB for the whole computer? for the gfx card? 21:22:22 wait, you mean you're trying to run OpenGenera on an Alpha? 21:23:27 32MB on the whole computer. And yes, I actually got an Alpha 21:23:29 plediii [~plediii@adsl-99-88-239-16.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:48 -!- TheLolrus is now known as TheLolrus-away 21:23:50 rescued from scrap and chock-full of incriminating personal data 21:24:41 (if not for the time lapsed since it was "scrapped" I could give it to Police to get thecompany that scrapped it to jail) 21:24:52 p_l: the solution is obvious: finance your RAM upgrade with blackmail. 21:25:02 haha 21:25:14 too much time 21:25:25 a polish company? 21:26:00 yeah. And we've got rather scary laws regarding handling of personal data 21:26:46 it's just that by now the timeframe to get this in court has lapsed (the machine was switched off in 2000 before I grabbed it few years ago) 21:27:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-221.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:28:01 still, I was quite surprised when a machine that was basically lying to be thrown out ran correctly at first touch :) 21:29:16 *stassats* doesn't get why ensure-class-using-class is run only when i call defclass twice 21:30:14 btw, does anyone have a portable CL implementation of coroutines? 21:30:14 stassats, maybe it would run the first time if you ran finalize-class or something? 21:30:29 Fare: i tried 21:30:38 p_l: I once implemented green threads on top of arnesi's call/cc 21:31:18 Fare: I was thinking of getting a sort-of MxN threading on top of bordeaux-threads 21:31:28 stassats: how are you running defclass? 21:31:49 p_l: asking for trouble, eh 21:31:56 antifuchs: (defclass name () () (:metaclass metaclass)) 21:32:28 Fare: well, I'm separating "fibers" from threads explicitly... it's just that the same code might utilise multiple threads as well 21:32:34 stassats: I mean, how are you evaluating the expression? running it from the listener, compiling a file, loading a file? 21:32:45 from the REPL 21:32:56 p_l: cooperative or preemptive? 21:33:18 and compiling, the result is the same 21:33:46 Fare: cooperative&explicit for coroutines, normal b-t stuff for threads 21:34:18 hm. 21:34:21 just that sometimes coroutines might serve you just as well as making multiple threads and having them communicate :) 21:34:50 *stassats* is completely puzzled 21:35:06 stassats: I lack experience with the mop, but I got bitten by having to eval-when class definitions. so that's not it. 21:35:09 p_l: so you can start from a normal single-threaded green coroutine thingie and add locking primitives and advanced scheduling 21:35:44 when i use standard-class, it's called right away 21:35:46 stassats, could be a bug in your MOP 21:35:57 let me try another MOP 21:36:24 the same on CCL, doh 21:36:29 Fare: I was thinking mostly of "dataflow" like use for coroutines 21:36:34 i must be missing something extremely obvious 21:36:52 Komi [Komi@62.32.153.39] has joined #lisp 21:37:38 when I use sanp4 to load open genera 2.0 it won't read system time and puts me into the coad load stream , how do I fix this. 21:38:08 lm3620, you need your inetd to export time service or something 21:38:14 stassats: just to narrow it down, ENSURE-CLASS is being called? 21:38:50 lm3620, try uncommenting daytime, time, etc., from your inetd.conf 21:39:02 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:40:28 oh, wait, the first time it's called with NIL as a class 21:40:44 i was right about missing something obvious 21:41:15 what were you missing? 21:41:24 that information 21:42:43 sebi` [~nil@unaffiliated/stuhlbein] has joined #lisp 21:42:50 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:43:41 I got an exit process initalize Genera, so I just wait now, right. 21:44:03 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 21:44:44 hm, then taking this into account, my :default-initargs :direct-superclasses should work 21:45:24 MOP sure is tricky 21:46:52 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-153.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:47:17 if e-c-u-c is called with NIL as a class, it calls (make-instance metaclass ...) 21:48:08 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 21:48:27 and calling (make-instance 'metaclass) manually does what i want from :default-initargs, but not when it's called from e-c-u-c 21:49:06 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-216-241.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:26 which doesn't make sense at all 21:53:20 won't there be an explicit :direct-superclasses nil in the make-instance call from ensure-class-using-class (null)? 21:54:23 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:55:45 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 21:56:12 stassats: if I'm guessing right as to what you're trying to do, try the first entry in http://www.cliki.net/MOP%20design%20patterns 21:57:11 -!- TheLolrus-away is now known as TheLolrus 21:57:47 looks like what i'm doing 21:58:04 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:58:37 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:59:16 and it works, when the class is already defined 22:00:23 by "it" you mean your code, or the code that is on that cliki page? 22:00:36 the code on that cliki page doesn't use :default-initargs 22:01:11 the reason is that there will be an explicit :direct-superclasses initarg from ensure-class-using-class, so your default initarg will not be used 22:01:41 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:49 my code, it's almost exactly the same 22:02:18 the difference is in the way i append arguments 22:03:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:24 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:06:51 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-226-77.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:07:18 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:35 rodyaj [~rodyaj@cpc2-live19-0-0-cust590.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:40 -!- rodyaj [~rodyaj@cpc2-live19-0-0-cust590.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 22:09:20 Krystof: it indeed adds :direct-superclasses nil, so what do i do? 22:10:27 oh, i see now 22:11:24 Fare: Yes, I should be there tomorrow. 22:11:39 hi, what's a lightweight and embeddable LISP interpreter? I feel adventorous, and i'd like to give Lisp a whirl 22:12:18 orry, slightly errornous sentence, I meant "where would I get an lightweight and embeddable Lisp Interpreter".. :P 22:12:58 -!- sellout [~greg@gar31-3-82-234-48-135.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:14:21 Damn, I've not done anything with lisp for too long. How do I regenerate fasl files again? 22:14:31 sebi`: depends what kind of Lisp you want. This channel focuses on Common Lisp, which tends to be rather heavyweight compared to Scheme, for example 22:14:48 sebi`, for what target platform? 22:14:52 oh 22:15:02 minion: tell sebi` about linux-quickstart 22:15:02 sebi`: direct your attention towards linux-quickstart: Linux Common Lisp Quickstart (Emacs, SLIME and SBCL + clbuild): http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 22:15:06 crossplatform if possible, but i'm on Linux right now 22:15:06 p_l: heavy weight as compared to what scheme? 22:15:08 cYmen: COMPILE-FILE, or using ASDF or similar? 22:15:37 Hm...I thought there was some automatic way to do it from the shell for all the fasl files flying around on the system. 22:15:42 sebi`, for embeddable cross platform, try ECL 22:15:43 I think this happens after sbcl updates? 22:15:52 ECL? do you have a link for me? 22:15:57 Fare: various small scheme implementations... even the last one I used was in ECL's range (assuming you didn't use any "weight-reducing" options) 22:15:59 Damn, it really has been too long. 22:16:07 minion: ecl? 22:16:08 ecl: Embeddable Common Lisp, a member of the KCL Family, is a Common Lisp implementation initially developed by Giuseppe Attardi and currently maintained by Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll. http://www.cliki.net/ecl 22:16:15 sebi`: I don't recommend ECL for someone who doesn't know CL well 22:16:28 for learning, go with SBCL or CCL, IMHO :) 22:16:36 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:53 okay, i'll just stick to the clisp (which just happens to be preinstalled on my system for some mysterious reason :P) 22:18:08 sbcl looks fine too 22:19:05 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA9290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:34 now that i solved the problem, i don't understand why e-c-u-c supplies :direct-superclasses NIL 22:20:13 my reading of http://alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#ensure-class-using-class suggests that it will be only included if it was actually passed to e-c-u-c 22:20:50 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:22:13 dlowe [~dlowe@c122-106-121-61.rivrw6.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 sebi`, clisp is great for some things, but quite quirky for others 22:25:05 same for common lisp in general, I suppose 22:25:21 okay, what would it be quirky at? 22:29:24 don't get me started 22:29:30 what do you want to do with it? 22:29:49 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:48 *nyef* once tried using gnu clisp for -actual work-. Never again. I'd rather set up a linux VM and use a real system. 22:31:56 -!- lm3620 [lm3620@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-qceirexqjurwekje] has quit [Quit: Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?] 22:33:02 nyef, what was wrong with it? I've only used clisp as an apt-get-installable calculator... 22:33:21 and to compile sbcl. 22:33:48 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-14149.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:35:02 syamajal_ [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:06 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:37:45 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:54 some things are very pleasant about clisp, but I probably wouldn't use it for production. 22:38:18 Fare: nothing fancy, just learning 22:38:41 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:39:00 problem w/ clisp for learning is limited (style)warnings and introspection 22:39:06 I find the whole ABORT... stuff on ^C a little odd when running clisp :P 22:40:14 I'm used to sbcl, and ccl has received much love lately, partly thanks to ita funding 22:40:34 and clozure tenacity 22:40:51 -!- krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:44:10 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:11 -!- drewc`` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:26 -!- Zik [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:49:35 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2CC5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:12 danlei [~user@pD9E2CC5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.97.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:55:26 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:52 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:26 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:10 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 22:59:12 -!- syamajal_ [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:26 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:14 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:11:38 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-20-88.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:25 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2CC5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:13:52 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:06 rottenrecords [~rottenrec@pool-108-13-54-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:13 -!- rottenrecords [~rottenrec@pool-108-13-54-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:18:41 rottenrecords [~rottenrec@pool-108-13-54-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:36 ikki [~ikki@189.247.77.32] has joined #lisp 23:22:09 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:24:50 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:17 -!- rottenrecords [~rottenrec@pool-108-13-54-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:25:39 rottenrecords [~rottenrec@pool-108-13-54-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:54 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:17 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:57 -!- faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:27:12 did my earlier messages get through? my stupid internet connection crapped out. 23:29:28 minion: please tell rottenrecords about logs 23:29:28 rottenrecords: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 23:29:49 thanks 23:30:24 minion: please tell logs about pagination 23:30:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``pagination''. 23:30:27 damn 23:31:37 ok, i guess they didn't get through... 23:32:58 are there any compelling reasons to learn common lisp over the many other variants out there? like DrScheme? 23:33:28 rottenrecords: Common Lisp is the greatest and best programming language in the world. 23:33:56 how is it different from DrScheme? 23:34:04 (you *might* hear similar claims about other programming languages, but they are mistaken) 23:34:14 i mean, from the perspective of a beginner 23:34:23 rottenrecords: The names of things are funnier. 23:34:40 will it teach me more about programming? 23:34:52 And if you squint your eyes just right, the code makes Magic Eye pictures 23:34:55 rottenrecords: It will teach you about programming Common Lisp. 23:35:38 *stassats* isn't at peace with CLOS and MOP today 23:36:00 so essentially there's no reason to pick one over another? 23:36:20 i learned both 23:36:28 which did you learn first? 23:36:33 Common Lisp 23:36:45 rottenrecords: Read http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html . I don't know anything about Scheme or DrScheme but unless it supports all the same things, it won't be as awesome 23:36:57 TomJ: will do 23:37:02 and i like and use it more, but that's me, you may find it differently 23:37:32 well, the reason i was leaning towards DrScheme was because it comes with a book and i think i read that it introduces you to different parts of the language gradually 23:37:58 common lisp comes with a book too! 23:38:03 minion: pcl? 23:38:04 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:38:18 can i get it in live tree form? 23:39:03 you can bury it, wait till it decomposes and grow trees out of it 23:39:16 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:36 interesting... 23:39:38 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:48 i'll try that with The Fountainhead first 23:41:24 only if it agrees to the contract. 23:43:54 rottenrecords1 [~rottenrec@pool-108-13-54-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:05 -!- rottenrecords [~rottenrec@pool-108-13-54-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:57 -!- rottenrecords1 is now known as rottenrecords 23:45:06 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-107.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:45:22 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-11-58.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 Komii [Komi@83.231.20.63] has joined #lisp 23:49:19 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.153.39] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:49:22 -!- Komii is now known as Komi 23:52:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:39 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:26 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:43 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:46 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:56 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]