16:14:12 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:12 16:14:12 -!- names: ccl-logbot TheLolrus Shaftoe_ kleppari ak70 cmm ehu deepfire dreish xinming_ dto Yuuhi Aferlak12 xyxxyyy manic12 Athas Hraban jleija Toekutr carlocci Tanami Euthydemus homie wbooze tayloj rdd pizzledizzle sanjoyd Jabberwockey Davse_Bamse NNshag lvillani leviathan stis_ Guthur salva gravicappa rahul prima_lux levente_meszaros jmbr pjb jmcphers morphling mega1 Komi daniel abeaumont marcus_ pchrist beach pdelgallego Fare potatishandlarn timor mrSpec zophy 16:14:12 -!- names: abend cmeow legumbre Fade setheus Krystof Yamazaki-kun codewad mbohun billstclair ephcon stepnem benny MetalDust prip Jasko Eno_ kephas hugod mathrick drewc zfx bozhidar cinch TraumaPony bytecolor ``Erik meder burton` PuffTheMagic Buganini lusory marienz gz antoszka zard1989 antifuchs Dodek bgs100 cupe xristos Demosthenes cthuluh koollman Amadiro derrida Tordek slyrus_ JuanDaugherty silenius nixeagle Xach s0ber pp206 fe[nl]ix WOG eno plediii oconnore 16:14:12 -!- names: ace4016 REPLeffect slyrus TomJ stettberger Dazhbog metasyntax Beetny AntiSpamMeta spacebat lnostdal sad0ur tcr sid3k rtoym phadthai Madsy cYmen OliverUv Tristam lisppaste specbot chiiph m4thrick Tasunteld jsnell dym_ holycow djdatavirusd627 Xantoz Xof pkhuong xavieran boyscared krappie BrianRice syntaxman redline6561 lemoinem [df] Odin- notrael ianmcorvidae Anarch dmiles_afk ecraven emma arbscht bleakgadfly minion tomaw rlb3 kvsari lharc Draggor gnooth 16:14:12 -!- names: bfein foom dcrawford svitalnes sykopomp araujo hdurer_ nasloc__ rapacity mornfall az christoph_debian tessier clop srcerer slyrus__ z0d yahooooo Khisanth cods hohum delYsid eldragon Holcxjo Patzy spiaggia Ralith joshe rlonstein vsync ramus Salamander bougyman mal__ qebab rread tic jpanest reb djm tltstc gzip4 johs DrForr dejones rootzlevel eli nuba kuwabara Intensity Obfuscate ineiros kloeri Revolve ASau`` fmu fda314925 andreer jrockway inklesspen Tabmow 16:14:12 -!- names: joast aoh frodef acieroid Deltafire Ginei_Morioka easyE pr rlpowell zbigniew mqt ski l_a_m _3b djinni`` scode erg hc_e franki- clog turbo24prg galdor Aisling mtd p_l nullman tychoish golgotha Axioplase_ yacin codemonkeyx erk__ _3b` felipe pkhuong_ gonzojive cpt_nemo joga Adrinael housel burton MrWGW johanbev hanneso kencausey amaron herbieB ojuice levene rsynnott Zhivago luis PissedNumlock qsun Pepe_ rotty tvaalen pok 16:14:51 Stattrav [~Stattrav@2403:0:500:1:218:deff:fe54:bd88] has joined #lisp 16:15:00 -!- benny [~user@i577A17A8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:15:20 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:25 clhs: get-internal-real-time 16:15:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_in.htm 16:15:46 depends on 16:15:57 benny [~user@i577A194F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:19 clhs: internal-time-units-per-second 16:16:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_intern.htm 16:16:30 urandom__ [~user@p548A634A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:25 *manic12* figured he would mention that since there is such a high emphasis on standardization on #lisp 16:21:30 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-121-212.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:46 -!- ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has left #lisp 16:23:08 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-72-210.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:13 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-42-228.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:23:54 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:20 madrik [~user@122.168.177.251] has joined #lisp 16:24:23 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:18 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:52 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:27:34 fe[nl]ix: sorry for the delay. still interested? join #quicklisp if you don't mind. 16:29:16 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:23 *levente_meszaros* is evolving a square root function using genetic programming 16:32:11 Should help to heat your house. 16:33:38 evolve one specifically for the quadratic equation 16:34:36 this is hard enough 16:35:36 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@2403:0:500:1:218:deff:fe54:bd88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:09 I allow three primitives +, / and (integer 0 100) in the body 16:36:19 and reference to the parameter of course :) 16:37:22 do it on a gpu 16:38:00 does lispaste work? 16:39:33 currently the best I get is 5 percent relative error on average 16:40:20 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:46 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-78-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:42:12 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:42:47 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-15-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:43:21 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e64e8-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:54 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e03de-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 16:45:07 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:07 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:05 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:21 Hello all. 16:49:33 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 hi nyef! 16:49:53 Anything going on? 16:49:58 nyef: i made a change to the progress reporting that i think is an improvement 16:50:00 hi 16:50:08 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:20 nyef: if you kill ~/quicklisp and reload quicklisp.lisp, you can see the difference. 16:50:35 I don't need to refetch quicklisp.lisp, though? 16:50:48 not unless you want to. the changes to that file are cosmetic. 16:51:06 Okay, starting that computer up now... 16:52:26 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:40 Should I also kill out the ASDF cache for it? 16:53:01 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:53:33 I don't know if that will make any difference. 16:53:57 Better safe, then. 16:54:14 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:56:45 -!- jleija [~jleija@ool-44c7e1d1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:51 Hmm! 16:57:14 That's not bad. 16:58:01 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:59:48 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.132.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01:38 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 17:02:28 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:05:33 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:06:35 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:04 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:40 Stattrav [~Stattrav@2403:0:500:1:218:deff:fe54:bd88] has joined #lisp 17:10:51 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:55 lsk_ [~user@118-169-33-71.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:33 stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 17:13:55 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-13.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:15:09 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 17:15:38 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A634A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:18 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:19:36 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-101-39.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 17:19:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:02 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.48] has joined #lisp 17:21:07 lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has joined #lisp 17:22:23 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:35 "SB-EXT:ATOMIC-INCF allows atomic incrementation of appropriately typed structure slots without locking." 17:22:42 -!- lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:43 What does appropriately typed structure mean? 17:22:59 structure slots 17:23:02 (when I do a (defvar *tmp* 0) , it doesn't accept *tmp* as being appropriately typed) 17:23:09 hmm. 17:23:16 0 is not a structure, by far 17:23:44 so I need to create a structure to increment a global index? 17:23:48 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.177.251] has left #lisp 17:24:11 Shaftoe_: There are other options available. 17:24:27 Shaftoe_: Are you sure you want to do that? What is the global index going to be used for? 17:24:36 It's a hit counter. 17:25:37 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:38 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:26:23 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:50 Shaftoe_: "appropriately typed" means "unboxed word-sized integers", possibly unsigned integers. 17:28:10 Alright. I'm just using a destruct. But can anyone tell me what is the philosophical (or perhaps implementation dependent) reason a simple variable isn't good enough? 17:28:16 Umm... ATOMIC-INCF is also a synchronization point of some sort. 17:28:17 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 it is. 17:28:40 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:49 it's a locked opcode that requires no syncronization 17:28:53 (no other) 17:28:53 (At this point, across the board, it's a full memory barrier.) 17:29:07 Umm. Locked opcode? Not on my machine it isn't. 17:29:21 by locked opcode, I mean an opcode with a bus lock 17:29:25 It's a multi-instruction sequence here, involving a linked load and a conditional store. 17:29:34 really? 17:29:39 what machine are you using? 17:29:44 A PowerPC. 17:29:55 interesting. I didn't know it was multi-instruction 17:30:15 Has to do with the multiprocessor synchronization design. 17:30:19 Same applies to Alpha, BTW. 17:30:51 indeed (about MP). So tell me how it syncrhonizes across CPUs if a bus lock isn't issued? 17:30:58 navigator [~navigator@p54892721.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:07 (Although, on Alpha, SBCL doesn't actually use the multiprocessor stuff, it just does a without-interrupts around the increment.) 17:31:40 Simple. If another CPU stored to the location since it was loaded, the store fails, and that is reported back to the program. 17:32:01 So it's done in a short loop: Eventually it has to succeed, in theory. 17:32:11 oh dear. =) 17:32:13 that's no good. 17:32:13 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32:30 I mean, sure it must work. But that's kinda painful 17:33:16 Actually, you could probably work out worst-case bounds for contention on a system of N processors, but... 17:33:23 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33:32 for all of its madness, x86 got this right. 17:33:42 lock inc [mem] just works 17:33:53 ... for N=2 it's two executions: For there to be contention, one of the processors had to complete. 17:33:54 it locks the bus, it does an atomic operation on the memory slot. end of story 17:34:15 but that's given that there's no contention on the lock 17:34:28 imagine that the two processors are in quick succession adding to the counter. 17:34:48 this is where an lock inc would be useful: you don't want syncrhonisation for this sort of stuff 17:35:01 so imagine that A always somehow manages to beat processor B 17:35:20 B keeps on trying, gets rejected, returns to user, says "try again". 17:35:29 by the time B tries again, A has done it again. 17:35:34 this can theoretically go on forever. 17:35:37 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 17:36:13 Yeah, but you have to be malicious about it, -and- have no other asynchronous events going on in your system. 17:36:22 clearly. 17:36:35 (Whoops: There goes the timer interrupt, processor A goes to deal with it...) 17:37:05 drakej [~Marsha@216-67-27-210-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:11 but about the malice: you don't necessarily need to be malicious. Only highly loaded and high contention. 17:37:47 On a two-CPU system? No, because you're also trying to do something -else-, and the locking is overhead. 17:37:50 in any case, these are more crucial in kernel code than usermode for that exact reason you mention (interrupts). So it's all theory at this point. The odds are very low 17:39:36 Right. And you can't just lock the bus for an RMW transaction on load-store architecture machines anyway. 17:39:44 5EXAA6J33 [~user@p548A634A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:54 (btw, just to be pedantic. the "lock" prefix on x86 is only overhead on a single processor system) 17:40:16 ... It's free on multiprocessor systems? -What-? 17:40:29 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 17:40:47 (even there, it's not overhead technically since it guarantees a barrier on the memory bus) 17:40:59 it's not frere. It's always expensive. I'm just saying it's less usefull hence "overhead". 17:41:33 however, even there, it *is* useful because you could have pipelining in a single CPU which would do weird things with a simple inc operation (without the lock). 17:41:41 Overhead is overhead, regardless of its necessity. 17:42:12 tumbao [~vinzent@188.18.78.113] has joined #lisp 17:42:15 (How long before we start getting bug reports for threading problems on OOSTORE x86oids?) 17:49:37 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:33 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:18 -!- 5EXAA6J33 [~user@p548A634A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:35 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:17 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:03:11 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:07 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:09:42 -!- Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:10:59 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:13:16 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:54 -!- Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:24 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 18:16:24 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 18:16:24 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 18:16:52 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:18:01 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:22:23 Komi [Komi@83.231.81.247] has joined #lisp 18:24:40 acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:00 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #lisp 18:25:57 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:43 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:57 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:29 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:33:36 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:39 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:34:42 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:45 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:10 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:41:21 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54892721.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:42:13 acieroid` [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:10 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:27 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:41 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:45:07 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:46:56 -!- Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:47:26 -!- tumbao [~vinzent@188.18.78.113] has left #lisp 18:49:30 is there any implementation of generators with yield in common lisp? The one i find (http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/Python%20Generators) does not seem to support first-order generators 18:50:02 do you really need generators? 18:50:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:51:04 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:07 stassats: what would be an alternative? I want to use it for creating musical sequences 18:51:36 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:14 that's a very broad definition of your problem 18:52:19 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #lisp 18:53:15 yes, i'm not quite on the clear on what exactly i want to do either, but i guess the answer to my original question is "no"? Is those constructs generally frowned upon? 18:53:22 *are 18:53:26 krl: how are you trying to use them? :) 18:53:52 krl: no, if their use is warranted 18:54:04 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:20 i want to be able to have a function that returns a sequence of chords when called, without the caller having to keep track of the progression 18:54:24 for example. 18:54:42 you can use closures for this, you know. 18:55:15 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:55:56 sykopomp: ah. i guess that's true. i will research this. thanks 18:56:12 http://ridiculousfish.com/kay/prize.html <-- who knew! 18:56:25 (defun generate-generator (list) (lambda () (pop list))) 18:56:51 krl: (funcall (generate-generator '(foo bar baz))) 18:58:54 mathrick: doesn't have the chin 18:59:52 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:28 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:11 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:03:43 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-9328.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:56 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-9328.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:04:42 rvirding [~chatzilla@host-90-237-129-19.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:12 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:06:24 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:31 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:09 fualo [~fualo@markov.genomecenter.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 19:11:27 naive question: are clisp hashtables O(1) access? 19:11:29 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:39 should be 19:13:42 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:14:39 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:40 and i hope by clisp you mean the implementation, not Common Lisp, the language 19:16:23 stassats: yes, my mistake 19:16:31 yes what? 19:16:42 I wasn't clear about implementation/language 19:17:04 stassats: how are they internally built? is there a mutable vector behind the scenes? 19:17:05 you're not making it any clearer right now 19:17:12 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:17:57 stassats: my assumption was that clisp would be the same as sbcl, the implementation I use 19:17:57 fualo: i don't know the details, but i'm sure it's a usual hash-table 19:18:43 so, you're asking about SBCL, now, that's clear 19:20:03 and in SBCL hash-tables are hash-tables indeed 19:20:25 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:21:54 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:22:44 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:00 I have a problem that is puzzling me, I can do ./clbuild lisp and sbcl starts fine, but if I M-x slime from emacs I get "Warning: Cannot find an executable for implementation sbcl" 19:24:28 do you start slime with ./clbuild slime ? 19:24:49 stassats: If I do that everything goes well 19:25:28 stassats: Does that mean my problem is in my .emacs ? 19:25:38 is there any good way to trigger a VOP, just to test what it outputs? I'm poking around the sbcl assembly code and figured out how to run (sb-assem:assemble) and get machine code put into a segment (vie calling sb-assem:inst), but I'm not really seeing the entry point to VOPs atm. 19:25:55 upward: if not, you need to set inferior-lisp-program to the right value 19:26:00 upward: your problem is in the .emacs, set your (implementation right 19:26:12 give me a sec and I'll toss you mine 19:26:52 (setq inferior-lisp-program "~/clbuild/clbuild lisp") is my inferior lisp 19:26:55 upward: http://gist.github.com/488906 19:28:36 upward: a random guess might be you need to have something like '("clbuild" "lisp") as well. 19:29:07 sorry for barging in ^-^ 19:29:30 nixeagle: well, you could do (disassemble (lambda (x) (declare (what-type-this-particular-vop-expects x)) (name-from-which-vop-translates x))) 19:29:40 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:31:21 upward: anyway, that doesn't look like an error message from slime 19:31:48 if you use inferior-lisp-program method of specifying executable 19:32:52 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:18 nixeagle: Using a VOP? Either the full DEFKNOWN a function and then put it in as a :TRANSLATE option for the VOP, or use %PRIMITIVE. 19:33:19 stassats: mmm, maybe I'm thinking vops are getting called somewhere they are not. Does ir2 require a lambda just to emit a VOP? 19:33:43 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:57 upward: right, that warning is issued by clbuild 19:34:22 oh yeah, that reminds me I found another FIXME I'll toss a patch in for in x86-64/insts.lisp 19:34:27 If I specify the path of the binary directly the problem is fixed. Perhaps darwin doesn't like the fact that "~/clbuild/clbuild lisp" is not directly a binary 19:34:27 There's a simple-ish example of using VOPs in contrib/sb-rotate-byte/*-vm.lisp. 19:34:39 oh cool, I'll poke at that 19:34:58 upward: well, at least it starts it 19:35:11 otherwise it wouldn't be able to show you the warning 19:35:18 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:25 The (:policy :fast-safe) parameter is necessary if you want the VOP to always be inlined, even in "safe" code. 19:35:40 otherwise what happens 19:35:57 it's not always inlined? 19:36:07 otherwise 19:36:26 Full-call. 19:36:56 (That one bit me a while back, and... I think it was jsnell that clued me in.) 19:36:57 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:03 alright, I've gotten this far on my own, I'll go poke at stuff and break a few sbcl compiles and come back with more questions :D 19:37:15 thanks :> 19:37:49 you can fiddle with VOPs without recompiling sbcl, you know 19:38:30 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:42 stassats: I'll have to recompile to test my patch at least ^-^, and that is what I've been trying to figure out, how to fiddle with vops without a recompile :P 19:39:00 C-c C-c? 19:39:17 oh that easy eh 19:39:18 It's -very- nice to be able to fiddle with VOPs without a recompile. Tweak everything to get it into line, -then- move it into the cold load. 19:39:53 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 19:40:36 oh wow, some archs don't have rotate-byte ^-^ 19:40:53 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:12 nixeagle: They do, just not optimally. 19:42:26 yeah I was noting the lack of *-vm 19:42:41 Hrm. All of the important architectures do, though 19:42:49 nixeagle: you can be the one to add it! 19:43:06 whatever is your favorite architecture 19:43:18 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@host-90-237-129-19.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:39 stassats: maybe I can ^-^, if I can get a mips build of sbcl going. 19:43:50 Anyone who starts fixing things for non-x86oid, non-ppc architectures runs the risk of being drafted to fix GC invariant lossage. 19:44:16 nyef: hah I understood all of that but the last 3 words ^-^ 19:44:31 ok well I know what GC is, so last 2 ;) 19:44:53 invariant is some condition that shouldn't change 19:45:08 lossage ;) 19:45:17 I kinda read the two as together ;) 19:45:20 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:45:23 "lossage" is the degree to which something loses. 19:45:24 so we have invariants changing ;) 19:45:37 Xach: working on getting the new ABCL release out right now. 19:45:50 What we have is things changing that shouldn't. 19:46:13 Basically, -no- compiler backend (other than x86oids) follow the rules for GC. 19:46:17 And they never have. 19:46:33 Even CMUCL suffers from this, to a degree. 19:46:41 oh fun 19:49:36 sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:49:45 oh wow rotate-byte is nice for understanding how all of the ir* stuff works. :> 19:49:52 And, of course, this doesn't matter in normal, single-threaded use, because the number of asynchronous signals involved in a typical single-threaded session can be measured in round numbers. 19:50:40 (Which explains why it only cropped up once I enabled threading: Every GC stop and every interrupt-thread involves asynchronously signalling at least one thread, if not all other threads.) 19:51:22 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:42 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:46 *stassats* wonders how fun is porting SBCL to other architectures 19:52:16 no clue, I'm still trying to understand the basics atm by poking around the code 19:53:04 sadly in a month I have to take a C++ course :< 19:53:52 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.48] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:54:02 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:11 stassats: if you don't need it by yesterday, I suspect it's quite fun 19:54:36 stassats: You might find improving the support for an existing architecture to be more interesting. 19:54:51 nyef: that's what i just though 19:55:08 t 19:55:09 stassats: Consider, for example, taking the MIPS backend and converting it to use gencgc as an option. 19:55:18 I'd be dead without M-. :< 19:55:18 though we're still short an ARM backend 19:55:26 (Or the Alpha or SPARC backends...) 19:55:50 I'd prioritise SPARC over Alpha between those two... 19:55:55 ooh how would you get started on an arm backend anyway 19:56:02 minion: arm-port-log? 19:56:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``arm-port-log''. 19:56:03 I've actually read the arm manuals 19:56:05 Danmit. 19:56:10 nixeagle: nyef already did 19:56:11 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:17 run a emulator 19:56:19 oh drat 19:56:24 got started, i mean 19:56:27 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 19:57:34 oh wow 3 years in the making 19:57:47 Yeah, like SBCL/Win32 in that respect. 19:58:05 is that source somewhere I can look at? 19:58:16 looking at something other then x86 that I know ought to be interesting... 19:58:47 nixeagle: you can already look at other architectures 19:58:54 oh, that you know 19:58:58 ok 19:59:09 Should be on repo.or.cz somewhere, but I'm not sure it's been synced recently. 19:59:17 oh git :> 19:59:27 i know arm is great for embedded, but when are we going to have servers? 20:00:03 something has to keep intel honest 20:00:10 manic12: the moment SBCL is ported, who needs servers without SBCL anyway 20:00:13 *udzinari* wishes he could run sbcl on n900.. 20:01:01 *manic12* appreciates sbcl but is actually a franzian 20:01:02 Clozure are spreading the rumors that they are porting CCL to ARM 20:01:36 nyef: this be it? http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/arm-port 20:01:36 stassats: Are we spreading rumors, or have you just been reading commit messages? 20:02:00 nixeagle: That'd be it. 20:03:11 sellout: i've only read a c.somewhere post by rme 20:05:02 oh, /me sees iPhone link on clozure.com 20:06:03 -!- notrael [~notrael@purpletree.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:23 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:47 deepfire_ [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 20:08:49 -!- deepfire_ [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:00 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2-dev] 20:09:05 how does one get epoch time on sbcl? 20:09:34 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@126.83-213-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:09:37 sb-posix:time 20:09:38 "epoch time"? 20:09:44 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:46 ditto ? 20:10:00 number of seconds since the beginning of the UNIX epoch? 20:10:04 I think he meant unix epoch 20:10:07 yep 20:10:22 isn't unix epoch jan 1 1970? 20:10:34 rvirding [~chatzilla@host-90-237-154-248.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:45 epoch, how pretentious 20:11:08 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.48] has joined #lisp 20:11:21 yes. unix epoch 20:11:33 I just need to pass it to a tool that requires epoch time. 20:11:44 there's all sorts of leap second shenanigans converting from UTC to epoch 20:12:00 There's some given conversion between universal-time and unix-time. 20:12:03 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.48] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:12:15 stassats: sb-posix:time does the job. Thanks. 20:12:26 They're both seconds-since-somewhen, IIRC. 20:13:09 start of the lisp epoch predates lisp by 50 years 20:13:10 possibly. However, decoded UTC, ie "the real time" is not linearly mapped to elapsed seconds because of said leap seconds. 20:13:17 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:17 galabad [~root@cpe-76-189-137-138.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:31 abeaumont [~abeaumont@126.83-213-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has joined #lisp 20:13:34 and that is why I am extremely reluctant to roll out manual conversion routines of such things. 20:13:49 will google go lisp after buying ita? 20:14:03 no 20:14:07 (- (get-universal-time) (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1970)) 20:14:13 haha,why not 20:14:31 i think the question is why 20:14:43 because it's faster to program in than python 20:14:57 for people who know both 20:15:01 oops, something's wrong 20:15:17 and ita has shown the more powerful search program capablities of lisp 20:15:34 stassats: First thing that's wrong is that the encoding could profitably be done at read-time... 20:15:48 there's way too many people at google who do not program lisp 20:16:05 nyef: but that's not wrong by 10800 seconds 20:16:06 stassats: leap seconds are wrong =) 20:16:19 are not 20:16:40 (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1970 0) here you go 20:16:51 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:10 themyke123 [~themyke1@adsl-190-134-46.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:16 what's yourah. I'm impressed. 20:17:22 .. hah 20:17:30 I mean: Ah, I'm impressed. 20:17:37 and what's yourah? 20:17:47 is that a wine? 20:17:48 typing from a different window "what's your ... " 20:18:04 ... time zone? 20:18:06 wow the arm target-insts is an easy read :> 20:18:29 (no, I was asking something to someone else in a different window... lines got mixed) 20:18:38 -!- themyke123 [~themyke1@adsl-190-134-46.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 20:19:02 anyways, I'm impressed it just works. so that would mean the encode/decode universal time takes care of the leap seconds. 20:19:08 which would make sense. 20:19:12 no, it ignores it 20:20:18 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:21:01 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 20:22:19 -!- sellout [~greg@AMarseille-256-1-118-14.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:22:32 nixeagle: Heh. It possibly won't stay such an easy read. 20:22:58 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757c17.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:04 nyef: hehe well that was much easier for me to grok then x86, I'm still trying to figure out how the compiler structure works exactly. 20:23:33 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 20:23:35 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:55 stassats: I see. So the leap second is unencodable in universal/unix time. 20:25:15 right 20:25:17 mmm why is rotate-byte using internal symbols of sb-vm like sb-vm::unsigned-reg, does it have to? 20:25:29 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:31 I'm looking at sb-rotate/x86-vm.lisp 20:25:33 because they're not exported? 20:25:45 stassats: right, why 20:26:14 the README states: (2) to provide an example of the things that can be achieved by using the external but unsupported interfaces to the compiler. 20:26:45 I just think something might be fixable or improvable here 20:31:15 Possibly just adding the symbols to the package-data. 20:31:46 The SC-numbers are being exported, but not the SCs themselves. 20:33:27 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:16 does the number itself means something architecturally? 20:35:37 No, but there's a maximum of... sixteen of them? 20:37:17 oh well, it's one of the dark spots in my sbcl internals understanding 20:37:28 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:03 Yeah, there's a variable-length encoding for an sc-number plus sc-offset that's used for debugging info and error-codes. 20:38:20 (Internal-error codes, that is.) 20:38:35 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:39:23 another random question I've had for a while, if I wrote random unittests for some of these functions I'm reading, would they be accepted into the test suite? 20:39:34 (assuming a test does not already exist) 20:39:58 Do they find bugs? 20:40:21 Right now, things are mostly working, and a full build-and-test cycle takes far too long. 20:40:29 ah 20:40:39 Adding to the test cycle without catching bugs isn't exactly a great idea. 20:40:44 fair enough 20:41:38 *nyef* has been trying to figure out some angle for taking the build-length down from its 20-30 minute length to something more workable, like 5-10. 20:41:55 nyef: buy a new CPU? 20:42:12 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:44 No budget, plus it's not exactly easy to find faster CPUs on some architectures. 20:42:49 nyef: would any of the tests be running in multiple cores (if available)? If not would that at least help the test cycle? 20:43:19 build it on ec2 20:43:50 nixeagle: That would help for the test cycle, yes, but doesn't help for the full build. 20:44:26 damn, i'm lingering around a single line of code for half an hour, #lisp is distracting 20:44:42 nyef: well yeah but if the test cycle is a large part of a build/test getting the tests to run faster or use more available resources ought to do some real damage to the run time. 20:45:08 nixeagle: Sure, but, again, that can be thrown on a server farm, and thus is less of an interesting problem 20:46:16 Especially when you're trying to cycle for a single bug: You're only going to be running -one- test file, but if it's a code-generator bug you're going to be doing a whole lot of full builds. 20:46:56 nyef: yeah I ran into that issue doing that patch to cold/shared.lisp 20:47:40 Then again, tweaking the runtime code is nice: Make, genesis, target-2-load, and test. 20:47:54 The compiler is unchanged, so you don't need to rebuild any fasls. 20:48:29 Just rebuild the cold-core to update its map of what's where in the runtime, then reload all of the fasls that belong in the warm-core. 20:48:37 urandom_ [~user@p548A75C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:17 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:20 Or there's slam.sh, the key part of which can be used even with an arbitrary XC host, so long as you have an after-xc core... 20:50:25 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 20:51:15 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-172.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 if I do a source transform that is actually run in place of whatever existing function definition is already there? That looks like what is happening to rotate-byte. There is a (defun rotate-byte (...) "docs..." (rotate-byte count bytespec integer)) but it looks like the transform translates that to (%rotate-byte count size pos integer) am I reading that right? 20:52:08 and %rotate-byte is a name from which the VOP translates 20:52:10 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:14 right! 20:52:54 but why is %rotate-byte actually implemented, that plays as the "default" option for arches without a specialized implementation? 20:54:11 nixeagle: Right, or for when the VOP fails to trigger, for one reason or another. 20:54:54 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:24 ok, then one of the last parts I don't understand is why we have a transform for #-(or x86 x86-64 ppc) in compiler.lisp that does not transform to %rotate-byte, or is that just for 32 bit rotation? 20:55:50 actually, %rotate-byte isn't the name of the VOP 20:55:56 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 and transforms transform into something like %unsigned-32-rotate-byte 20:56:22 stassats: yeah it is %unsigned-32-rotate-byte, I'm just curious why that exists when there is already a default fallback 20:56:27 when the args are known 20:56:55 ah ok 20:57:53 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:09 i don't think you need transforms, since you can have several vops which translate from the same name but with different types 20:59:21 but i'm fuzzy about it right now 21:05:38 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05:49 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-236-47.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 21:06:41 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@126.83-213-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:07:26 mmm before I get much further with this, I ought to ask if there are any good reading material I should be looking at on sbcl internals wiki or elsewhere about compiler structure. I mean looking at the code and "reversing" it is fun, but time consuming, at least moreso then looking at some docs. 21:08:08 nixeagle: http://insidelisp.blogspot.com/2010/04/book-chapter-11-what-is-python-and-what.html 21:08:10 nixeagle: http://insidelisp.blogspot.com/ 21:08:49 cool :> 21:09:27 nixeagle: You might also find some of the stuff in http://www.lisphacker.com/codex/ and http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/ to be of interest. 21:10:42 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-205-41.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:11:17 the more sbcl internals hackers, the better 21:11:49 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:56 stassats: Amen. 21:12:22 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:12:34 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@host-90-237-154-248.mobileonline.telia.com] has left #lisp 21:12:57 anywhere where I can look at that book chapter by chapter instead of fishing around a blog's archives? 21:13:15 nixeagle: Not yet, unfortunately. 21:14:29 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:43 abeaumont [~abeaumont@126.83-213-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has joined #lisp 21:18:07 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:19:56 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:08 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@126.83-213-160.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:06 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:21:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:22:33 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-236-47.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:58 Xach: abcl 0.21 binaries (and sources) available from its releases/ directory. 21:28:01 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:28:08 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 21:28:08 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 21:28:08 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:28:10 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:39 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:29:21 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:23 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:32:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-112.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:34:11 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:34:20 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 21:37:12 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:47 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:35 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:48 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:09 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:42:01 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:26 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:43:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43:44 essayer vimperator ou conkeror. 21:43:47 wrong window 21:43:59 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:44:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:47:38 -!- Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:47:38 -!- Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:49:31 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:49:54 ht-ajax, does it work with current hunchentoot? 21:50:06 ... which operator is "ou"? 21:50:23 *nyef* is thinking "with" or "or"... 21:51:00 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:52:46 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:59 nyef: 'or', I guess, since vimperator and conkeror are kinda incompatible 21:53:28 Ah. Domain knowledge is a wonderful thing. 21:53:43 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A75C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:44 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:54:34 oh, there's also ht-simple-ajax 21:54:41 that seems to build fine 21:55:34 Revolve [revolve@94.23.20.44] has joined #lisp 21:58:48 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:38 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:27 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:04 urandom_ [~user@p548A75C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:15 -!- Revolve [revolve@94.23.20.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:30 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04:18 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:52 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:05:03 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-20-88.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:33 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:05:41 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:06 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-253-28.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 22:07:47 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:34 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #lisp 22:11:42 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:12:52 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:13:10 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:21 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:15:49 slava [~slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:52 Fare: ping 22:16:46 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:16 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:25 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:28 there got to be a better way to modify lisp code programmatically 22:19:46 huh ^-^ 22:19:50 Better way than what? 22:19:54 i'm really tired of they way slime does it 22:20:29 stassats: ok, what does slime do that you hate, and what do you want instead :P 22:20:32 nyef: well, doing forward-sexp, backward-sexp, etc. like you would do manually 22:20:49 nixeagle: if only i knew what i want 22:20:51 stassats: mmm are you using paredit (I'm assuming yes) 22:20:52 i'd implement it! 22:21:10 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:21:17 Mmm. I need to enable paredit in my "new" setup. 22:21:30 nixeagle: i am using it, but i am writing code to automatically edit code 22:21:32 I've even started missing paredit for C code. 22:21:39 stassats: oh 22:22:06 stassats: I'd be using paredit to do that, I have some slime extensions using paredit that I wrote and they do fine 22:22:33 i don't see how paredit would help 22:23:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:07 stassats: dunno it just does a really good job manipulating the lisp code. As far as "refactoring", which is what I think you are hacking on... I don't have a clue 22:23:40 i'm currently on adding and remove symbols into :export of a defpackage 22:23:45 s/remove/removing/ 22:23:48 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-253-28.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:25:14 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:25:20 most of the things were done not by me, i'm just extending and fixing bugs, and i'm not very happy 22:25:58 stassats: ah, you can remove and add export symbols as is I think, unless you are talking about something else 22:26:12 slime-export-symbol-at-point 22:26:25 it is in slime-package-fu 22:26:34 nixeagle: that's where i am at, thanks 22:26:44 stassats: oh sorry! trying to help :< 22:26:53 I've poked at slime hacking in the past and given up :< 22:27:24 too bad 22:27:52 stassats: hehe, the only hacks I have are basically to my "live buffer" and to my slime-scratch extensions. 22:28:13 Mmm. Every so often I take a look at slime to see if I can make it do various things, and typically come away disappointed in how it's set up. 22:28:33 nyef: i'm staying disappointed 22:28:53 What impresses me about swank is how it is setup to fairly portably do things like get function arglists and such 22:29:06 *stassats* is currently hacking on exporting structures slot accessors, constrictors etc. in one go 22:29:14 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-172.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:22 nixeagle: there's nothing impressive in it 22:29:25 stassats: oh that would be awesome 22:29:43 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-172.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:29:50 nixeagle: it's already in CVS, albeit somewhat slow 22:29:59 and works only on SBCL 22:30:18 looks like it is time for me to update, and I only use sbcl except for every now and then clozurecl 22:30:43 adding ccl support is in the plans 22:31:09 also adding support for doing the same but on standard-classes 22:31:15 ok, still reading that sbcl book :> 22:31:32 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 22:31:39 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-172.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:18 oh well, and i've broken export-symbol, by accidentally inserting p, i guess while doing C-p 22:34:48 i always insert some junk with a screwed key-binding 22:35:36 hah 22:40:35 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:12 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:36 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:06 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:44 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:49:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:52 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:45 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:46 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:20 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:09 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:18 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:05:01 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:08:56 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 23:09:16 ionine` [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:50 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:12:00 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:37 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:58 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:16:50 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:21:19 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:14 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:42 jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:25:25 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:32 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:18 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40:36 alright, now slime has M-x slime-export-class which now works on classes (MOP) and structures (SBCL and CCL) 23:41:54 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:17 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:39 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:46:15 -!- nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:20 drakej1 [~Marsha@216-67-27-210-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:15 -!- drakej [~Marsha@216-67-27-210-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:48:18 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:39 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:49:32 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.7/20100713121444]] 23:49:48 ... How does it know where the defpackage form is? 23:49:59 magic! 23:50:06 No, seriously. 23:50:38 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:50:51 it employs several strategies, first by looking at the source location, then by finding packages.lisp in the current directory 23:51:02 then by finding defpackage in the same file 23:51:09 *nyef* winces. 23:51:49 That'll usually work, though. 23:52:26 and it does 23:53:16 i guess it could fallback to the user and ask "where on earth is your defpackage?" 23:53:18 Sure, it's just not hard to construct a scenario in which it doesn't. 23:53:39 Does it search for any defpackage, or just defpackage? 23:53:57 *nyef* tends to start his files off with cl:defpackage and cl:in-package, which screws some things up. 23:54:32 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-9328.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:54:49 nyef: that'll work 23:56:34 and i actually described it quite simplistic, the code is much more messed up