00:00:20 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:00:28 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:09 -!- igor-explorer_12 [~igor-expl@213.88.72.55] has left #lisp 00:05:15 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:06:28 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07:04 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Client Quit] 00:07:09 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-212-103.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:10 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-212-103.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:07:10 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 00:13:39 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:45 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:16:52 cmsfluff [~cmsimon@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:08 -!- peterhil [peterhil@YYCCLXXXVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:20:03 Komi [Komi@83.231.84.137] has joined #lisp 00:20:14 hi 00:27:48 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 00:28:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:29:29 In CL (SBCL, specifically), is there a way that I can wrap a bit of code so that the following error will simply be ignored? debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-SLOT in thread #: The slot WORLD-OBJECTS is unbound in the object #. 00:29:38 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:29:41 I kind of thought unwind-protect would do it, but seems not so much. 00:31:23 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:33:13 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.106] has joined #lisp 00:33:26 Ah, handler-case. Yay PCL. 00:34:36 abdel [~abdel@86.85.150.158] has joined #lisp 00:34:55 -!- abdel [~abdel@86.85.150.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:16 abdel [~abdel@86.85.150.158] has joined #lisp 00:35:19 rlpowell: or slot-unbound. 00:35:21 hello 00:40:15 -!- ferada [~user@g230249169.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:40:35 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:33 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 00:42:52 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.185] has joined #lisp 00:46:29 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:00 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:35 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:53:54 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 00:54:40 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:26 peterhil [peterhil@ZYMMMDCCLXXXVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 01:00:42 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:03 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.134] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:02:32 rlpowell: or you can defmethod on slot-unbound 01:02:43 -!- abdel [~abdel@86.85.150.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:55 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-170-131.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:51 hey rahul. 01:04:54 hey 01:05:02 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 01:05:32 hmm 01:05:47 I should whip up some dinner 01:06:09 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-221.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:08:33 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839C1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:10:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:11:47 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:12:18 -!- ikki 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[~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:33 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:44 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:00:51 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:01:46 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:04:17 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:06:26 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:06:28 abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:38 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:07:43 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:14 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:48 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 02:11:03 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.184.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:51 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-98-216-106-0.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 02:16:57 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e6166-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 02:23:22 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:24:14 -!- m`` [~m@usealice.org] has quit [Quit: alice.] 02:25:42 m`` [~m@usealice.org] has joined #lisp 02:29:40 thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:01 -!- thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:37:15 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:37 konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 02:45:29 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:49:55 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:19 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:08 -!- Guthur [~michael@host81-132-170-159.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:56:30 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:57:51 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:02:51 asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.182] has joined #lisp 03:05:21 rolando [~user@33.96.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:11:50 *reads backlog* 03:12:09 do you guys *really* think that the CL community is one that's centered around building small reusable libraries that all work well together? 03:12:14 that is what my post is about 03:12:20 Tom_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 03:12:22 CL tends to be big systems for one person 03:12:30 not lots of libraries for lots of small projects 03:12:52 jrockway: there's no such thing as "the CL community" 03:13:28 nobody writes libraries that integrate/cooperate with other people's libraries 03:13:47 i wish i had the backlog from 2 years ago when i was asking about using some complementary html-generation libraries together 03:13:56 the answer i got was that i was an idiot for not writing my own 03:14:02 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:15:23 *rtoym* doesn't see how two html generation libraries would be expected to work together. 03:15:24 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:15:44 there you go :) 03:16:00 Yeah, but does that work with any other language? 03:17:38 -!- rolando [~user@33.96.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:19:27 fe[nl]ix: Say, did you get the build to work? 03:19:41 rolando [~user@196.114.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:22:02 rtoym: I gave up. I'm using the pre-built binaries you uploaded 03:22:28 Darn. So it still failed when you removed the -batch? 03:22:35 Or did you not try anymore? 03:23:32 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:12 jrockway: that's like asking how you can write a for loop in Java inside a C++ function 03:27:29 html-generation libraries are languages 03:27:54 say you want to (iterate) over a something-that-iterate-knows-how-to-iterate-over, but you also want to produce an HTML DOM at the same time 03:28:02 makes sense, but depends on macros playing nice with each other 03:28:07 possible to do, possible to not do 03:28:50 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:33 People don't normally go out of their way to make sure their code is incompatible with someone else's code. 03:29:52 jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 03:30:02 -!- jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #lisp 03:33:42 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:36:00 jrockway: then it's probably a good idea to try and understand how the html-generation library is supposed to be used... That, and consider using a library that's not broken wrt other macros (i.e. not iterate, or screamer to a lesser extent). 03:37:09 The problem, if there is any, is probably technical and due to the fundamental brokenness of "portable" codewalking. 03:37:18 anyway, the main point of my post on HN was that CL is not the same, library-wise, as other languages 03:37:27 CL and Perl have very different library cultures 03:37:39 so don't use CL, dislike how libraries work there, and never try anything other than java again 03:37:46 i don't think that argument is anti-CL or pro-CL 03:37:51 it's just advice :) 03:38:11 jrockway: but your example is irrelevant to that advice. 03:38:38 that is why i did not provide this example 03:38:46 because i made it up right now, after not doing much lisp for two years :) 03:39:00 like i said, i wish i had that conversation 03:39:10 then i could post it verbatim and we could be debating something concrete 03:41:18 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:19 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:38 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 03:50:26 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.12.106] has joined #lisp 03:53:20 hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:53:23 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 03:53:35 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:59:38 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:28 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06:58 asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.182] has joined #lisp 04:10:24 -!- puddingpimp [edrnwec@118-92-140-106.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:12:27 Does clos-db produce a database using pure lisp? is the data stored as text? is 04:12:30 it 04:12:41 easy to use? 04:13:17 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:13:57 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 04:14:08 Is clos-db still being developed? Is it mature and reliable? 04:17:39 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:19:42 Good morning everyone. 04:19:57 Is there anyone here using clos-db, so I can get help when needed? 04:20:06 Hi beach. 04:24:00 Is there a better cl database library than clos-db? I need the data stored as plain text. 04:24:05 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:24:41 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:27:54 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:33 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-9-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:32:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:33:24 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:33:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 04:36:57 paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:31 Why not use a text file? 04:41:56 That's what I do. But most of the time, I just keep the data in memory. I refuse to accept this distinction between primary and secondary memory that Unix imposed on us. 04:42:35 I used to think like that. Now I think that distinction is valuable. 04:42:46 I don't think unix invented the concept of a filesystem 04:43:01 Without it reification becomes precarious. 04:43:03 right 04:43:17 and even then, you will want to keep backups of reified data 04:43:26 breaking the illusion 04:43:27 rahul: No, but they took a system (Multics) without that distinction and made a more stupid one. 04:43:40 without? 04:43:47 beach: multics has a filesystem 04:43:58 it definitely didn't have transparent persistence 04:44:11 rahul: It had a hierarchy of segments. 04:44:20 that was for security 04:44:21 -!- rolando [~user@196.114.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:44:25 Transparent persistence is a seductive lure. 04:44:26 not for persistence 04:44:38 kind of like transparent clothing 04:45:03 but it's not the emperor that wears this clothing. it's the concubine 04:46:01 Transparent distribution is the same basic problem as transparent persistence. 04:46:18 It makes sense for things like sleep mode on a notebook, but that's about it. 04:46:20 well, it's amplified 04:46:30 it's transparent persistence with multiple parties 04:46:36 right 04:46:42 but that's only temporary 04:46:50 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-164.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:46:54 Well, it's more that persistence is like distributing to someone to use after you're dead. 04:47:15 sure 04:47:38 fatalnix [~fatalnix@cpe-67-253-110-223.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:49 Just curious, is there a way to use the value in a string as a function object, I tried using for example, #'*something* , (fnction *something*), etc. 04:49:42 No. 04:49:54 You might be interested in COMPILE. 04:51:42 <_3b> (fdefinition (read-from-string *somestring*))? 04:51:49 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:51:59 ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:17 -!- Tom_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:52:17 Well one of the things I was thinking of applying it for was creating a function that would take a list of functions, concatenate all of their return values and return that, I figured I'd have to do it like that. 04:52:17 <_3b> (except probably find-symbol instead of read-from-string, if you don't make all the strings yourself) 04:52:48 <_3b> what does strings have to do with 'list of functions'? 04:52:55 _3b: I don't think he is talking about the name of a function, but a function object. 04:52:57 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:52:59 fatalnix: (mapcar #'funcall (list of functions...)) 04:53:15 I'd have to use apply, actually 04:53:24 unless 04:53:25 <_3b> beach: ah, could be 04:54:41 never heard of mapcar before :) 04:55:10 Zhivago, beach, rahul, I need the data stored to disk looking similar to this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2EWM 04:55:57 lat: so write a function that prints that to a stream 04:55:57 lat: Just use print and program print-object to write it that way. 04:56:12 print-object may fit your needs, may not 04:56:33 don't force it. it may be easier to just use your own entry point 04:56:58 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:57:17 Right. Use print-object only if you need to mix it with ordinary Lisp printing functions like for lists or arrays. 04:57:24 wow that is really cool :D 04:57:50 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 04:58:06 ragnul, "entry point"? 04:58:14 thanks a lot 04:58:42 lat: As in a function called print-my-object-to-a-stream. 04:59:00 lat: As opposed to CL print. 04:59:46 lat: Do you need to read them back in? 05:00:03 beach, yes. 05:01:09 lat: Then I recommend the format I often use: [name-of-class :initarg1 value1 :initarg2 value2 ...] I then write a trivial reader macro on #\[ that does (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list)) 05:03:16 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:03:44 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:04:25 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:03 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:15 beach, thanks. I'm learning slowly but surely. I've written several useful cl programs so far. Too bad I'm not in France. I would love to take your cl programming course. 05:08:54 rahul, thanks to you also! 05:09:20 lat: I annotated that paste with the library I wrote and use. 05:11:08 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:11:51 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:18 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:15:22 beach, that is very helpful! Many thanks! 05:15:44 lat: No problem. 05:16:03 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:17:00 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:02 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:47 Hmm. I think I've pretty much got this alternative lisp syntax sorted out. 05:22:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zjsuszsjmflvyyrd] has joined #lisp 05:23:30 http://66.246.138.59/list.html 05:23:55 ... looks kinda like verbose haskell 05:24:26 puddingpimp [jbrvggys@118-93-75-174.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:24:58 Well, the verbosity is a separate issue. 05:25:44 That's a literate programming experiment. 05:26:15 xxx. becomes (xxx) and a-b becomes (a b) 05:26:46 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:26:54 foo: introduces a new level at which xxx. can work with a double indent, and with a single indent xxx. becomes xxx instead. 05:27:02 And that's it. :) 05:27:25 Why would you want an alternative syntax? 05:27:44 Well, I started with the aim of something highly readable. 05:27:53 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:03 hmmmmmmmpf 05:28:16 And, honestly, excessive delineation of clauses with parentheses makes that hard. 05:28:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.87.180.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:28:42 So I started by stripping the parentheses off the outermost and innermost levels. 05:29:05 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.180.213] has joined #lisp 05:29:10 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:18 That made things a lot easier to read. The I allowed that outermost stripping to tunnel deeper into the text. 05:31:46 I'm reasonably happy with the result, and all of the usual macrology works since it's actually just another way of writing arbitrary s-expressions. 05:33:38 -!- fatalnix [~fatalnix@cpe-67-253-110-223.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:34:59 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:36:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.87.180.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:39:45 I've kind of come to the conclusion that to make things usefully concise you need to be quite verbose. 05:40:36 Zhivago: looks like applescript! 05:41:12 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.167.90] has joined #lisp 05:41:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:41:28 Yeah. Fortunately it doesn't have grammar. 05:41:45 This is for my non-functional lisp experiment. 05:42:06 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 05:43:24 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:46:54 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 05:49:03 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.87.167.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:49:39 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:48 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:03:28 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 06:03:46 blist 06:04:31 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:05:33 does anyone know whether there are any projects working on s.t. you can code lisp to the android? I have just seen that some guys are making it possible to use php on the droid 06:05:36 ? 06:10:33 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:25 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:35 -!- ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Quit: bbl] 06:20:17 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:25:17 What does "s.t." mean? 06:26:44 such that 06:27:23 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:27:27 I award you the prize for "stupidest use of an acronym". 06:27:37 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:27:51 good morning 06:27:58 I believe that there are scheme interpreters for android, at the least. 06:28:33 Zhivago: ok.. 06:28:42 But you could google that for yourself. 06:28:58 billitch1 [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:05 i thougt that s.t. was widely used in technical text (at least the ones that I have read) 06:29:22 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:29:30 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:29:34 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 06:29:41 Zhivago: I have found a couple but I have not could find anyone which where doing exactly the same as the php guys 06:30:30 What? Implementing php? 06:30:51 You might want to be less vague. 06:30:53 implementing php for the android, yes 06:32:00 So you're looking for people implementing php on android in lisp? 06:32:58 no 06:33:12 So, what _are_ you looking for? 06:33:31 http://phpforandroid.net/ 06:33:59 replace php with lisp, I have found jawara as the only one 06:34:06 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75436b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:16 hello mvilleneuve 06:37:23 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:37:32 davse: Too vague. 06:37:34 Davse_Bamse: Yes, s.t. is widely used. But we have Emacs abbrevs, so that you don't need to make your acronyms visible to others. 06:38:40 *beach* takes off for work. 06:39:12 beach: ok 06:45:32 morning 06:47:51 morning 06:47:57 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:48:11 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 06:48:52 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:50:39 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75436b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:27 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:54:31 Is there a better word than normalize for a function which, well, normalizes a designator? 06:54:52 canonicalize? (canonize) 06:55:09 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:55:18 Good one although I'd had hope for something short. So far I used COERCE, how bad is that? 06:55:25 coerce-foo that is 06:55:31 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.185] has joined #lisp 06:55:55 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:15 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:15 well, another approach is to have your normalization function be named the same as your type 06:56:28 so (defun namestring (pathname) (let ((pathname (pathname pathname))) ...) 06:57:15 Yeah, I like that in case I actually have a deftype for the thingie too but in my case it's user input 06:57:25 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:57:35 I'll go with canonicalize 06:57:44 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-174.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:59:14 there's always "frob" 07:01:32 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:07 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:29 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:32 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:04:36 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:06:30 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:07:28 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:11:15 Lorenzo_ [~Lorenzo@net-188-217-112-9.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 07:11:17 hi 07:11:22 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 07:12:08 hi 07:14:19 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:36 What do you think of this book? http://www.amazon.com/Scheme-Programming-Language-4th/dp/026251298X/ref=dp_ob_title_bk 07:15:22 I have not read it, sorry 07:15:30 no problem 07:15:52 I need a good book about scheme 07:16:24 or lisp 07:17:24 you don't happen to be lorenzo of the salon, do you? 07:17:30 then would I recommend Practical common lisp 07:17:44 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ here Lorenzo_ 07:18:10 thanks! 07:18:11 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e6b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:28 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e6b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:20:26 mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 07:22:06 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:26:54 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:06 lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has joined #lisp 07:28:37 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:30:23 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zjsuszsjmflvyyrd] has left #lisp 07:30:32 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:31:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:32:28 -!- Lorenzo_ [~Lorenzo@net-188-217-112-9.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:45:07 hello Krystof 07:45:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:45:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:07 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:03 morning lispers 07:48:36 today, I'll probably start the webmail implementation based on CLAW :) 07:48:43 hi spiaggia 07:48:51 back in France? 07:48:55 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:49:40 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:07 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:50:55 spiaggia, your nick reminds me that I need vacation (spiaggia = beach in italian) :) 07:51:21 kiuma: You do need a vacation then, yes. 07:51:29 Krystof: Yes, I've been back for 3 weeks. 07:51:53 Krystof: And my mandate as a HOD ended last Friday night!!!! 07:52:16 kiuma: On my laptop, I am "plage". 07:52:17 yay 07:53:20 I suppose you saw this, but I am so proud of it that I'll announce it again: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/clim3.png 07:53:46 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:24 spiaggia: what is it? 07:54:55 clim3 ? 07:55:04 mvilleneuve: It's a proof-of-concept implementation of the lowest layer of a still-incomplete specification of CLIM3. 07:56:14 spiaggia: congratulations. What will you do with your expanded leisure time? :) 07:56:33 Krystof: Work on SICL, CLIM3, and learning Vietnamese. 07:58:14 minion: tell OliverUv about CLIM. 07:58:14 OliverUv: look at CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 08:01:49 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-217-90.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:10 áh yeah, I am working in clim actually, just had no idea there was a clim3 specification in the words 08:02:16 *works 08:02:32 OliverUv: It is going to take quite some time. 08:03:17 who is working on it? I tried googling but found nothing 08:03:29 OliverUv: Just me. 08:04:02 ah, I see 08:04:28 will it end up as huge as clim2 ? 08:04:37 (if you finish it) 08:04:51 OliverUv: Part of the purpose is to simplify CLIM2. 08:05:19 OliverUv: But I have nothing against huge per se. I do have a lot against insufficiently powerful. 08:05:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:06:19 ah yeah, but trying to wrap my head around clim2 now, just trying to make some nested presentations, it's difficult 08:06:58 OliverUv: Think of it as an investment, just like learning Lisp instead of some language with a smaller specification. 08:07:32 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:09:56 yeah 08:10:23 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 08:10:58 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:54 hm, SBCL complaining about utf-8 characters in my latin1 encoded file :/ 08:12:13 Did you use the right encoding when you opened it? 08:12:35 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:13:47 OliverUv: how about not using latin1 ? 08:14:14 I did all that work to get external-formats almost usable a few months back 08:14:57 *sob* 08:15:33 Krystof: that's useful when you need to read data from external sources(or "clients") 08:15:49 but for your own source code, there's no need to use latin1 08:17:14 fe[nl]ix: i'm extending some legacy systems which require latin1 encoding, but I think I can UTF-8 them for the time being 08:17:20 Krystof: I thought that had worked for quite some time? What was it that you did this recently? 08:19:37 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:19:38 OliverUv: Are your latin-1 characters in source code, or in a file that you read? 08:19:53 source 08:20:18 hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:25 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:20:54 It looks like compile-file takes an :external-format argument. 08:22:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:26:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:13 (:EXTERNAL-FORMAT :UTF-8): the octet sequence (228 109 116) cannot be decoded. 08:26:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:26:39 :/ 08:28:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:50 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:28:52 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 08:30:21 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:31:36 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:31:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:31:39 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 08:33:32 OliverUv: And you are sure those are not the latin-1 characters ä, m, and t? 08:33:46 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-161-21.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:33:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-173-65.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:33:48 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 08:36:17 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Restarting ERC...] 08:37:17 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:37:33 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hodpfwvbokzawpnk] has joined #lisp 08:44:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:45:47 spiaggia: i think they are, I am not certain why it is complaining, åäö are legitimate latin1 characters 08:46:05 anyway, I UTF-8'd my files now and it is working 08:46:17 thanks for the help 08:46:24 But you said you are using UTF-8 encoding. No wonder it can't handle latin-1 then. 08:46:47 I don't understand why you are surprised. 08:47:16 What? I must have misspoke, the files are latin1 08:47:23 (or were) 08:47:41 It looks to me like you take a file encoded in latin-1, open it using UTF-8, and then you are surprised that it can't read a sequence of latin-1 characters. 08:47:48 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:11 If you have a file encoded with latin-1, in order to read it, you have to open it with latin-1 encoding of course. 08:48:16 I guess that would be the truth, I am not sure how SBCL is trying to interpret the files 08:49:05 OliverUv: It looks like you are opening a file encoded in latin-1 using an external format of utf-8, and so SBCL is trying to interpret the contents as utf-8 which it isn't so it complains. I am not sure why this is surprising to you. 08:49:45 Indeed it shouldn't be. I thought SBCL tried to open in latin1, then complained about international characters 08:49:55 i feel dumb! 08:50:32 OliverUv: Why would SBCL open a file with external format latin-1 if you explicitly tell it that it is UTF-8? 08:51:01 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:52:55 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:51 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:54:15 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:45 -!- paperkettles [~chris@ip72-195-132-159.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: paperkettles] 08:55:48 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-chkyqlclqhpxsbhq] has joined #lisp 08:56:37 OliverUv: Sorry for insisting, but I am trying to understand your thinking here, because I can't make any sense of it. 08:56:40 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-217-90.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 09:00:31 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:41 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:01:40 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:05:11 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 09:05:34 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082DE76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:05:40 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082D4E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:15:35 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 09:17:15 Is there a function to convert a char digit to a integer? For example, #\1 -> 1. I am currently converting the char to a string and then using (parse-integer), but that seems overkill. 09:17:31 clhs d-c-p 09:17:31 DIGIT-CHAR-P: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm 09:18:21 stassats: Great! Thanks. 09:18:25 didi: (- (char-code c) (char-code #\0)) 09:19:10 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-88-83.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:10 spiaggia: Thank you. It works too. 09:19:44 didi: No problem. 09:21:24 not as portable 09:21:41 pretty sure the spec makes no guarantees about char-codes 09:22:29 OK then, (case c (#\0 0) (#\1 1) ... (#\9 9)) 09:27:57 Ralith: good thing it has digit-char-p 09:29:28 dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 09:31:36 -!- puddingpimp [jbrvggys@118-93-75-174.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:40 Ralith: have you come across many EBCDIC machines lately? :) 09:35:33 why, just the other day I didn't see one! 09:36:52 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:24 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 09:37:31 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:40:58 -!- jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 09:42:18 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:43:40 puddingpimp [bpasrca@118-92-156-2.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:44:13 kazoo [Unix@pool-71-104-18-19.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:15 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B47E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:18 Komi [Komi@83.231.80.198] has joined #lisp 09:56:27 hi 09:56:29 paperkettles [~chris@2001:5c0:1104:f400:226:bbff:fe0c:b57f] has joined #lisp 09:56:58 hello 09:57:22 -!- cmsfluff [~cmsimon@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:59:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-161-21.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59:57 spiaggia: ah, sorry, I never told it explicitly that it was UTF-8. That (:external-format :UTF-8) was part of the debugger's print 10:00:02 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:29 nha_ [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:00:36 spytheman [~user@95.111.111.212] has joined #lisp 10:00:38 OliverUv: Ah, OK. Well, just tell it that it is Latin-1 instead. UTF-8 is the default. 10:02:10 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Night.] 10:05:20 -!- nha_ is now known as nha 10:05:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-159-191.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:07:13 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:07:28 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:14 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:31 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:43 -!- kazoo [Unix@pool-71-104-18-19.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:52 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:11:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:11:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-159-191.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:17:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:29:30 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:32:39 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 10:35:56 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 10:40:46 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:41:45 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:42:46 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-241-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:45:10 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-134-44.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:45:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-241-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:45:14 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:46:26 Why am I getting these errors: http://paste.lisp.org/+2EWR 10:47:16 Especially, why this line: cd /home/lat/lisp/ltk/ 10:47:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-134-44.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:47:25 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-222-90.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:47:27 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:48:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-222-90.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:48:49 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-254-135.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:48:51 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:50:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-254-135.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:50:35 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-216-22.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:50:37 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:52:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-216-22.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:52:24 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-197-226.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:52:26 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:55:18 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:09 Ralith: there are certain ordering guarantees 11:00:20 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:18 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-174.vologda.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-9-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e6166-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-94.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-33.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:01:18 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 11:03:19 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.73.16.plusnet.thn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-174.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-9-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e6166-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-94.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-33.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:04:19 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:05:08 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:05:10 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.80.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:05:49 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 11:07:31 lichtblau: ping 11:15:34 hi 11:18:46 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:21:42 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:25:38 primalux [~Miranda@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 11:26:53 Could someone take a look at a slow (compared with others) function? Is there a eloquent reason why this function takes the most time to run? http://paste.lisp.org/+2EWS 11:27:25 I am trying to mirror a list. '(123) -> '(121) 11:27:40 uh 11:27:47 didi: LENGTH, and ELT on lists are O(n) operations 11:27:50 why does '(123) go to '(121)? 11:28:27 Krystof: I want to mirror the right side. 11:28:37 tcr: Humm... 11:28:52 navigator [~navigator@p54892D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:55 '(123) is a list with a single number in it, 123. Did you mean '(1 2 3)? 11:28:59 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.73.16.plusnet.thn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:08 Krystof: Yes! Of course. Sorry. 11:29:55 tcr: So you're saying that every time I run (elt) I am doing a O(n) operation? 11:32:20 didi: Sure remember that lists in Lisp are singly-linked 11:33:00 tcr: OK, I think I understand now. A vector would be more suitable 11:33:00 actually they're just chained pairs of cons cells which is even worse (for other reasons :-)) 11:33:28 Right? 11:33:42 didi: if you just want to reverse a list, there are better approaches than what you're doing there 11:34:08 I haven't yet understood your actual goal you're trying to achieve 11:35:20 rsynnott: Well, I don't want to reverse it. I want to mirror it. 11:35:51 For example: '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) -> '(1 2 3 4 3 2 1) 11:37:02 Xach, Why am I getting these errors when compiling zpb-ttf: http://paste.lisp.org/+2EWR 11:38:01 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 11:39:41 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 11:40:02 didi: reverse the list, take the first part from first list and last part from second list ? 11:42:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:35 Xach, Also, why is the line "cd /home/lat/lisp/ltk/" there? That is a directory I have a different lisp project in, but I don't understand its relation to zpb-ttf which is in a completely different directory.. 11:42:39 didi : what if the list has an even number of elements ? 11:42:59 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 11:43:09 also, do you really need to mutate the list, or would it be fine to make a new list ? 11:43:29 ski: '(1 2 3 4) -> '(1 2 2 1) 11:43:46 ski: That would be fine. As long as it is fast. 11:44:32 (btw, is this homework ?) 11:44:46 ski: No. Just a little puzzle from a site. 11:44:58 didi, so you are discarding the last half of the list? 11:45:03 Are there free solutions available that will allow me to compile lisp code into Windows DLL Files, which I could then execute e.g. from C# or C code? I have seen that many of the commercial Lisps, like Lispworks, seem to charge for "application delpoyment" - are there any that dont? 11:45:12 lat: Yes. 11:45:19 well, in any case, you don't want to use `elt' (nor `length') on lists, if you can avoid it 11:45:45 ski: Gotcha. 11:45:57 I will try to use vectors instead. 11:45:57 though i suppose `length' wouldn't in this case be *that* bad 11:46:10 ski: Yes. I think (elt) is the one to blame. 11:46:29 ski: is nth better? 11:46:42 the simplest solution i can think of it to first compute the length, then run down the list, shunting the elements as you see them onto another list, until you hit the middle 11:47:08 then when you go back, add the elements to the shunted list, returning it 11:47:15 ski: Hum... That seems better than a vector. 11:47:39 ski: I will try it. Using cars and cdrs, right? 11:48:00 TomJ: as far as i know lispworks is the one that is not charging for deployment 11:48:02 ski: is there takeWhile in lisp? like in haskell? 11:48:09 didi : yes 11:48:22 That's going to be a challenge. OK. 11:48:51 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:49:00 jdz: *not* charging? So I can make DLLs in lispworks personal? ( I know I can't use Lispworks PErsonal for any commercial purpose, but maybe I can develop the code and then get a Pro license when I'm ready to sell it) 11:49:35 TomJ: not the "personal" edition, no 11:49:55 jdz: ok then sorry I don't follow what yo umean - lispworks personal is the only one that's free. So what are you saying that they don't charge for? 11:50:50 TomJ: well, if you buy the Allegro CL, you still have to pay stuff when you want to deploy (but you might be able to negotiate something with the company) 11:51:21 jdz: ah I see, so the others charge you initially and then for each commercial app? but lispworks is a flat fee? ok, that's even worse :) 11:52:12 Davse_Bamse : i don't know 11:54:05 TomJ: depends. I think full ACL license gave you no restrictionson deployment, it's just that "percentage of application sales" was a common way to get a cheaper license 11:54:28 p_l: right OK 11:54:53 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-88-83.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:55:15 I assume that I can make compiled UNIX libs and binaries using e.g. GNU clisp? (In which case, wouldn't GNU clisp work on Windows too..?) 11:55:55 TomJ: I don't think you can build libraries with clisp, no. ECL might work better. 11:56:51 ski: ok 11:56:57 Oh ok. I had assumed most/all lisps compiled native binary code. Thanks, looking at ECL. OK so C as an intermediate language, fair enough 11:57:44 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-92.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:00:23 This looks good, thanks pkhuong 12:00:49 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:16 Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:06:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:09:01 TomJ: most do, clisp doesn't. 12:09:18 TomJ: though compiling to binary code doesn't always mean compiling to shared libraries or conventional executables. 12:09:54 Xach: yeah understood. Thanks 12:10:34 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.12.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:11:32 Is it just me, or is every OS in general use today a variously degraded copy of Multics? 12:11:46 Odin-: just you. 12:11:53 Odin-: just you. 12:12:46 Unix was a degraded copy of Multics, and that's where most of today's "serious" environments come from. (And MacOS X.) 12:12:53 Odin-: wrong 12:13:10 And CP/M was a degraded copy of Unix, and let's not mention the evil that came from there. 12:13:13 p_l: Oh? 12:13:20 Unix was written based on *experiences* with Multics, not as a copy of multics 12:13:31 p_l: Mmm, yes. True. 12:13:48 p_l: That's sort of what I was trying to imply with the 'degraded', though. 12:13:53 in many places the original Unix team actually went in opposite direction of Multics 12:14:12 the things that are common are stuff that was simply "obvious" 12:14:53 I believe there is little more similarity between Multics and Unix than between Unix and TOPS-20 12:14:55 p_l: The Unix group did what they did because AT&T pulled out of Multics, and all they had were minicomputers. It wasn't that they tried to do something better, just preserve as much comfort as possible, given the lousy hardware they had. 12:15:12 spiaggia: they actually wanted to play around and run a game ;P 12:15:42 and they happened to work on Multics before and took some of the ideas 12:15:57 *Odin-* is kinda curious where the shared libraries and 'conventional executables' came from, though. 12:16:06 johnthesavage [~stoic@209-217-211-157.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 TOPS-20 probably has more in common with BSD4.x than Multics has, due to the TCP code 12:16:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hodpfwvbokzawpnk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:16:43 Guthur [~michael@86.148.29.214] has joined #lisp 12:17:01 Because I happen to know that 'conventional executables' weren't much in place until around the time of Multics and its contemporaries... 12:17:12 Odin-: because you didn't need them 12:18:19 p_l: Yes, much like they don't make an awful lot of sense when working with Lisp, I believe... 12:18:20 then multiprogramming became available 12:18:52 'multiprogramming'? 12:19:14 Context switching? :p 12:19:18 Odin-: multiple programs instead of "load one piece of binary code and run" 12:19:24 Yeah, okay. 12:19:54 -!- johnthesavage [~stoic@209-217-211-157.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:55 ITS for example had dynamically loadable libraries without "conventional executables" 12:20:03 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-swdckmpetjdgwlbr] has joined #lisp 12:20:05 OTOH, it used a debugger for shell... 12:20:10 And the straightforward way to do that is to have a big byte block that the system knows it should execute? 12:20:35 *Odin-* is curious about alternate models and why the computer world is as it is. 12:20:44 Odin-: DOS' .COM executables are actually that - it's "load into memory segment and jump to offset 0x100 12:21:21 p_l: Yeah, well, that was designed to be used on absurdly simple hardware as I understand it... 12:21:23 ITS executables were core dumps, iirc 12:21:34 Odin-: a.out wasn't better 12:21:39 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:40 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:46 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-51-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:22:11 a.out's magic number was jump offset (or jump instruction?) to code 12:22:13 p_l: Wasn't Unix built on hardware that was already outdated at the time? 12:22:15 (on PDP-11) 12:22:16 p_l: so is a dos (or x86) memory segment 64kb? I recall that limitation on .com files 12:22:20 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 12:22:27 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-51-20.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:33 *Xach* is sorry to have said anything 12:22:36 Odin-: 16bit segmented addressing 12:22:37 Odin-: Isn't all hardware outdated all the time? (: 12:23:04 Odin-: not really, just cheap. PDP-7 wasn't the newest thing available, though. 12:23:08 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-stlztmhrphlfauxl] has joined #lisp 12:23:08 schmrkc: In some sense, yes, but not others. 12:23:11 and now let's go back to Lisp 12:23:19 Hehe. Sorry. :) 12:24:37 Although, on a mildly similar note ... has no Lisp Machine system code made it into the open? 12:24:56 I think I saw some of that the other day 12:25:01 Krystof: So what's causing long fasl load times? 12:25:05 Odin-: MIT's CADR is available, as are parts of TI Explorer iirc 12:25:16 yes MIT CADR . http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/mit/mit_cadr_lmss.html 12:25:35 homie [~user@xdsl-87-78-39-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:39 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-78-39-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:42 Interesting. 12:28:22 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:28:42 personally I'd rather try making a LispOS-like thing with nanokernel design instead of resurrecting old stack machines... :P 12:29:11 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:43 (or just plain worked to get available implementations better. In the free time left after dealing with "life") 12:31:07 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-78-39-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:31:19 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-78-39-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:31:59 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:33:40 homie [~user@xdsl-87-78-39-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:43 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-78-39-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:18 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:34:45 btw, is there some version of sb-heapdump that is compatible with current SBCL? Or do I have to update it myself? 12:35:01 especially since even Symbolics was task switching, not really multitasking 12:37:49 Is there any workable way to do context switches in CL? 12:38:41 Well, I suppose that would get built on top of threads, which depend on OS support, which makes the thing recursive when talking about implementing an OS in Lisp... 12:38:52 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 12:39:44 most commercial lisp implementations had green threads for a long while and are now moving towards OS level threads 12:40:25 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:06 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:11 mal__: which implementations? 12:41:43 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:42:15 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:26 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:43:48 mega1: allegro and lispworks 12:43:50 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:04 howdy mega1 12:44:18 hello 12:44:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-stlztmhrphlfauxl] has left #lisp 12:45:46 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:46:55 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 dto: your blog's format clobbers the pretty screenshots :( 12:48:23 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:49:37 dto: also you don't link to 3b's postmortem...where can I find it? 12:49:53 ah, /me clicks through the clicki clicky 12:50:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:52:30 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 12:53:35 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:55:23 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:55:51 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest56258 12:56:09 Odin-: many lisps have had something called LAP - Lisp Assembly Program 12:56:50 p_l: I used to use the nick Odin-LAP for my laptop. I got to hear about those then. :) 12:57:42 also, it's perfectly possible to implement SBCL only with SBCL, no C involved, similar for other Lisps... then you can always add the kernel portions and have a lisp os 12:57:46 p_l: I figured it was basically something like embedded assembler? 12:57:51 yeah 12:57:58 usually with lisp-style syntax 12:58:32 p_l: Movitz is attempting to do something of the sort, I believe. 12:59:18 Though porting SBCL to no-OS seems like it would give you a far more complete system faster... 12:59:30 Odin-: ask nyef about SBCL-OS 13:00:24 Although, the way things are in the computer world now, I fear you'd need to have something akin to Zeta-C to make it useful. :( 13:00:46 Xach: what screenshots? 13:00:53 jdz: the pretty ones 13:01:16 Xach: oh yeah, i can imagine a bunch of pretty screenshots. awesome. 13:01:30 jdz: On dto's blog, silly. 13:01:51 well, that was the next thing i was going to click :/ 13:01:55 any (other) sbcl committers about who want to talk about whether we really want a release this month? 13:02:28 particularly interested in people with large out-of-tree almost-finished branches (e.g. nyef, lichtblau, win32 threads off the top of my head) 13:03:04 win32 threads are finished? 13:03:14 tcr: my holiday hacks sped up many cases of make-instance, including those that you get from defclass, defmethod and defgeneric forms 13:03:37 at least operational? 13:04:20 tcr: there's a related issue in defmethod, which in the common case recomputes (twice) the discriminating function for each defmethod to exactly no effect at all -- this was about 10% of load-asdf.fasl when I measured it 13:04:25 krystof: Is there a chance there wont be a SBCL release this month? 13:05:01 Guthur: there's always a chance. I'm not sure I can be bothered when the tree has had 6 commits, but I also don't want the no-freeze period to be no-activity-either 13:05:21 -!- Guest56258 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 13:05:22 that's why I want to ask the opinion of other sbcl committers, particularly those with large out-of-tree almost-finished branches 13:06:03 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:07:20 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 13:12:33 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:00 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:23:49 asarch [~asarch@189.188.153.86] has joined #lisp 13:23:56 -!- primalux [~Miranda@95.158.0.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:26:07 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-88-83.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:46 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-174.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:12 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.153.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:15 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.73.16.plusnet.thn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:46 asarch [~asarch@189.188.153.86] has joined #lisp 13:34:59 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 13:35:18 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:19 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:36:38 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 13:37:46 My (mirror) function is getting horribly complex, I think. Not good. 13:42:35 Krystof: would there be time for SSE intrinsics this weekend (maybe)? 13:49:40 rrice [~rrice@99.164.35.250] has joined #lisp 13:50:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:53:59 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:21 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:28 -!- spytheman [~user@95.111.111.212] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:56:45 pkhuong: well, I'm entirely happy with not releasing this month if people would use the time to merge some of the huge stuff that maybe is difficult to get in in a single three-week period 13:57:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-197-226.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:57:50 lichtblau: could you make a new tarball for cl+ssl ? 13:58:34 didi: Yes. A good solution is simple. 13:59:21 uhm, I'm only barely following CL+SSL at the moment. Can you ask Anton? 13:59:30 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e6166-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:57 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:216:d3ff:fefc:90a2] has joined #lisp 13:59:58 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:00:45 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:01:09 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:01:13 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:59 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:42 fe[nl]ix: (how) are you using cl+ssl, BTW? it's not exactly integrated with iolib yet. 14:02:45 ryepup [~user@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:03:18 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:42 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:49 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 14:04:02 hm, I am getting no-function-defined errors but when I check with find-symbol, the function is there! 14:04:21 OliverUv: find-symbol doesn't tell you if a function is there. 14:04:58 OliverUv: fboundp will tell you if a symbol names a global function. 14:05:04 is there any way to elevate an SBCL STYLE-WARNING to be considered a compiler error? I want warnings like "BAR is being redefined as a macro when it was previously assumed to be a function." to be show-stopping errors (ideally with "yeah, I know, do it anyway" restart) 14:05:23 ryepup: handler-bind 14:05:40 *Xach* would need more minutes to give a complete recipe 14:05:57 Xach: and that would wrap the asdf load or what-have-you? 14:06:02 ryepup: yeah 14:06:02 I can do it from there 14:06:14 lichtblau: kiuma requested a more recent cl+ssl in the gentoo repository 14:06:14 cool, that's easy enough. 14:06:15 (with-fatal-style-warnings ...) 14:06:30 (handler-bind ((style-warning (lambda (c) (restart-case (error 'show-stopping-error) (continue () (muffle-warning c)))))) ...) 14:06:59 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-88-83.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:07:11 [untested, obviously] 14:07:32 lichtblau: do you have any time to merge into sbcl any of your nice stuff this summer? 14:08:58 Un4SeeN [~unseen@196.207.27.99] has joined #lisp 14:11:05 -!- Un4SeeN [~unseen@196.207.27.99] has left #lisp 14:11:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-197-226.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:12:20 At the moment I think I'd be more likely to spend that time working on the win32 branch. (Unless it turns out that, say, win32 needs relocation.) 14:13:15 the threads? 14:13:17 OliverUv: do you see the trouble? 14:13:53 yeah I think somewhere along the line my functino isn't getting defined after all 14:13:57 trying to investigate why 14:14:53 also slot names are interfering with non-object-system function names :/ 14:14:57 yes, win32 threads, or threads in general, for that matter. I haven't checked yet whether sb-concurrency has everything that allegro's mp package has, but presumably there's some work left to be done there. 14:15:00 I didn't expect that 14:15:17 KevinsBack [5052d17f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.82.209.127] has joined #lisp 14:15:29 As far as non-threading win32 work needs to be done, I don't know yet whether that work would end up being in SBCL proper or in iolib. 14:15:29 Hello. 14:16:01 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.153.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:16:02 *KevinsBack* is going to use Lisp to own WP soon. :-) 14:16:12 OliverUv: slot names alone won't interfere, but accessors, readers, and writers might. 14:17:17 What's WP, World Peace? 14:17:17 Anybody here know of the famous Lisp programmer, Erik Naggum? 14:17:20 own WP? 14:17:43 never mind. 14:18:07 KevinsBack: I do. 14:18:10 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:18:10 *KevinsBack* loves Erik Naggum, world's best Lisp programmer. 14:18:16 KevinsBack: I think most people do 14:18:32 the late Erik Naggum alas 14:18:34 Xach: ah, then it is the accessor, yeah. 14:18:57 he was so sarcastic, I loved his usenet posts :-( 14:19:09 I don't have readers or writers, so I thought the accessor wouldn't be a problem since it has to be used in the context of (slot-value ..) 14:19:19 I guess it can be used in other contexts aswell then! 14:19:42 they helped me learn to communicate with idiots and morons who do not realize that Lisp is the best language ever made :-) 14:19:54 KevinsBack: Go away. 14:20:03 and now you will use him to own wikipedia? 14:20:26 why Xach, don't you love Erik. 14:20:35 also best tool for the job, though arguably lisp is one of the most malleable tools... though it takes a lot of work to mould it to fit your needs 14:20:36 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 14:20:39 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*5052d17f@*.80.82.209.127 14:20:47 -!- KevinsBack [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Don't be an idiot or moron.) 14:20:54 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 14:20:57 harsh 14:21:15 OliverUv: the :accessor option is a bit like shorthand for defmethod (and defgeneric if needed). 14:21:33 OliverUv: you can also have separate, explicit defgenerics for the accessor name. 14:21:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:23 *Xach* has found that very handy lately, and wants to write a post about it 14:24:27 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:24:34 cool 14:24:48 oh, you blog about lisp? hand me your url! 14:25:08 hey 14:25:20 can help 14:25:30 didi : lisppaste ? 14:25:34 OliverUv: it shows up on planet.lisp.org 14:25:40 OliverUv: actual blog is xach.livejournal.com 14:26:12 input 14:26:14 http://xach.livejournal.com/tag/lisp has the lisp stuff 14:26:20 dj-datavirus627: what's up? 14:26:25 or for 14:26:28 cmd 14:26:28 well lookie here, planet lisp was already in my feeds 14:26:32 just almost never appearing 14:26:43 on the google reader home thing 14:27:15 asarch [~asarch@187.132.88.236] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 Xach, Why am I getting these errors when compiling zpb-tff: http://paste.lisp.org/+2EWR 14:28:19 lat: That does not show enough context for me to guess. 14:29:34 lat: What lisp implementation are you using? 14:29:47 Xach, sbcl. 14:30:27 ski: Let me just clean a little bit. 14:30:46 lat: Can you provide more context, like how you got that output? 14:31:51 ErikNaggum [5f9ae6fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.154.230.252] has joined #lisp 14:31:59 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e6b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:14 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 14:32:49 -!- ErikNaggum [5f9ae6fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.154.230.252] has quit [Quit: "goes back to his grave."] 14:33:02 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*5052d17f@*.80.82.209.127 *!*PUJOL@*.mart-bsr1.chi-mart.il.static.cable.rcn.com *!*4810dd5a@gateway/web/* *!*g@207-180-177-44.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com 14:33:05 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 14:33:10 Xach, while in the buffer for zpb-ttf.asd hit C-c C-c. Those error messages popped up in a different buffer. 14:33:32 lat: Ah. That's in the category of "don't do that, then" 14:33:51 ErikNaggum [5f9ae6fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.154.230.252] has joined #lisp 14:33:51 lat: To load zpb-ttf, use something like (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'zpb-ttf) 14:34:13 system files like that aren't meant to be compiled with C-c C-c. 14:34:13 hi 14:34:13 ski: Tak it easy, ok? I'm just a newbie I am not proud of that. http://paste.lisp.org/display/112641 14:34:18 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:54 Proud of the code, I say. I cool with being a newbie. 14:35:42 didi: fyi, (floor (/ foo 2)) is the same as (floor foo 2) 14:35:52 Xach: Nice. 14:35:56 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:36:18 And I saw a bug. (cpy-half-reverse) does not exist. No more, I mean. 14:36:22 didi : itym s/cpy-half-reverse/copy-reverse/ 14:36:27 didi: consider subseq 14:36:27 ski: Yes. 14:36:37 heh, Xach, I've actually read quite some Zach Beane posts on that feed already, didn't know that was you 14:36:38 relcomp: Sure. I will look. 14:36:55 A pleasure to know you also enjoy buddhabrots :) 14:37:55 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54892D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:16 Xach, I am always attempting the impossible. :>) Thanks for the help. 14:38:29 lat: No problem 14:39:06 ski: It misses an element when there is a odd number of them. 14:39:36 Macro's are so way cool. :-) 14:39:44 didi : well, i suppose this way could work, too .. (though i was actually thinking of only looping through the list only once (apart from `length')) 14:39:52 didi: oddp 14:40:16 ski: I tried the way you proposed, but I couldn't do it. 14:40:33 didi : hm, point .. so you either need to both round up and down in the odd case, or use another approach 14:40:56 relcomp: I tried that too and it didn't work. But there was a bug. I will try again. 14:41:04 ski: always round up. 14:41:24 ErikNaggum: Please use a different nickname. 14:41:55 -!- ErikNaggum is now known as ErikN 14:41:55 why xach, I love erik. 14:41:58 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 14:41:58 relcomp : then `(mirror (list 1 2 3))' will yield `(1 2 2 1)' (using didi's current scheme) 14:42:17 ErikN: It's not polite to join a group using the name of a dead colleague. 14:42:17 is this better. :-) 14:42:18 ski: therfore you need oddp. 14:42:32 relcomp : sure 14:42:38 .. or doing it another way :) 14:43:09 -!- ErikN is now known as Lispisgood 14:43:19 :) maybe. Don't know. Each of us seems to have a different approach. 14:43:19 troll spotted 14:43:30 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-chkyqlclqhpxsbhq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:43:44 *ski* just has the "obvious" direct fused recursive loop in mind 14:43:49 But the ideas are so much helpful. :D 14:44:20 I want to honor his memory :'-( but don't know proper way. 14:44:44 Lispisgood: Writing stupid things on IRC is not a good way. Lurk and learn. 14:45:38 notrael [~notrael@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 14:45:38 I will watch. I moved from comp.lang.lisp to here. 14:45:55 http://explorationsindevelopment.blogspot.com/ has potential 14:46:56 xach: site looks awesome, I wish I could code graphics like that. 14:47:21 Lispisgood: maybe he'll share the source code if you ask nicely. 14:47:29 relcomp : actually, on second thought, i see i will need something like `oddp' in my variant as well 14:48:08 Xach: That's not really kevin smith! >:( 14:48:50 sykopomp: perhaps there are two 14:48:50 who is kevin smith? 14:48:54 ski: another way is evenp ? 14:49:05 Lispisgood: a person named kevin smith writes at the blog I just linked. 14:49:54 for the curious, this is what I ended up with to escalate macro style warnings to errors: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112642 14:50:08 relcomp : hence "something like" ;) 14:50:45 ryepup: that is some old-school fragility right there! 14:51:03 Xach: they're both directors! 14:51:19 Lispisgood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_smith 14:51:55 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:51:56 thank you. 14:52:52 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:53:49 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:18 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:25 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:11 -!- Lispisgood is now known as ErikNaggum 14:55:11 -!- ErikNaggum [5f9ae6fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.154.230.252] has left #lisp 14:55:16 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.117] has joined #lisp 14:57:50 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:58:25 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:50 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:29 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:08 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:33 how weird 15:03:58 in my sbclrc I have a function that loads up the legacy code, which gets defined in the common-lisp-user package 15:04:02 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:04:31 then in the function I require my new things, where inside another package I import some of those functions 15:04:56 *didi* go get some rest. His brain is on the fritz. 15:05:07 when I did this all in one function, it would give me conflict errors, saying there were functions in my new package with the same names as the ones I'm importing 15:05:27 but when I split that sbclrc function up in two, one which loads the legacy code and one which requires the new code 15:05:36 the conflict errors dissapeared 15:05:57 If you paste the before & after code, maybe someone can explain what's going on. 15:06:20 it's a lot of code 15:06:24 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:06:46 if you don't know immedately what the problem is I think I'm going to spend some more time researching it 15:06:50 thanks :) 15:10:36 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 15:12:28 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:17:52 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 15:22:56 I lied. I couldn't go rest. I got the algorithm to work, but now I hit another road block: The system doesn't seem to allow the amount of memory that the recursive solution requires. 15:24:45 Use a tail recursive form. 15:25:20 Hummm... 15:26:00 (And then convert that to an iterive form) 15:26:11 didi: is this still the list-mirroring thingy? 15:26:29 rsynnott: Yes. :( 15:27:14 yeah, tail recursion would do it (assuming that your implementation does tail recursion optimisation) 15:27:20 alternatively, you could do it iteratively 15:28:00 The actual mirror is not the problem, but the constrains that the system impose. 15:28:18 -!- dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:45 rsynnott: I tried using (elt) but as I am using lists, time exploded. 15:29:21 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 15:29:55 rmarynch [~roman@bras-11-ge-62.122.200.238.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 15:30:05 Hello all :) 15:30:07 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.88.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31:15 didi: well, one approach would be, find length of list, then iterate through list maintaining current position (so just getting cdr of list each time for next step); before halfway point push element to result. At halfway point, take a copy of the result, and start stepping through that, pushing to the result. finally reverse result and return 15:31:24 if I'm understanding your requirements properly 15:31:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31:53 nus- [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 15:32:01 gee, how would you find the length of the list? 15:32:02 that way it's more or less linear time 15:32:23 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:17 what? 15:35:19 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 hi rmarynch 15:37:37 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:25 -!- nus- is now known as nus 15:38:49 didi: what are exactly the requirements of mirror? 15:39:35 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:19 pjb: It needs to mirror a list at its central point. Left to right. '(1 2 3 4 5) -> '(1 2 3 2 1) ; '(1 2 3 4) -> '(1 2 2 1) 15:42:20 Tortoise and hare. 15:42:32 rsynnott: Doesn't your solution mirrors it right to left? I am slowly getting it. 15:42:59 like (replace (reverse list) list :end1 (floor (length list) 2)) ? 15:43:34 that's rather simpler than mine :) 15:44:59 stassats: :O 15:45:05 That was impressive. 15:45:19 -!- peterhil [peterhil@ZYMMMDCCLXXXVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:26 symbole [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:35 peterhil [peterhil@YMMDCXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:50:45 didi: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/112641#1 15:51:20 Notice that the second solution is O(n), like the first... 15:51:30 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:53 stassats, but it doesn't work if the list has an even number of atoms. 15:52:06 lat: it doesn't? 15:52:33 and it works on any objects, not only atoms 15:56:22 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:32 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:57:58 Hum. I think emacs couldn't handle the load of something. I will try from the terminal. 15:58:25 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:25 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 16:00:37 -!- peterhil [peterhil@YMMDCXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:18 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:03:10 stassats, sorry. I was wrong. It works for both even and odd numbers of objects. Very neat! 16:04:33 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:27 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:45 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:05:49 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-197-226.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-197-226.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 16:09:39 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-217-90.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:20 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:11 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:12:46 -!- benny [~user@i577A2072.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:13:01 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:17 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-197-226.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:14:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112644 16:14:54 I am almost there. The (mirror) thingy is part of a bigger algorithm (not so bigger). Thank you *very* much all of you who helped me. This is indeed a _very_ friendly channel. I'll try more later. 16:15:21 didi: don't tell anyone! we have a reputation to uphold! 16:15:29 benny [~user@i577A1889.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:31 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:15:38 Xach: Hahaha. Nice. 16:15:45 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-217-90.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:15:49 Again, thank you very much. 16:15:51 Bye. 16:15:53 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:16:29 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-217-90.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 *stassats* likes his solution better 16:23:05 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 16:23:12 it even works on sequences, not just lists 16:23:47 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:48 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-136.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 16:24:02 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:216:d3ff:fefc:90a2] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:24:05 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:24:22 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:24:46 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:26:00 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 16:26:48 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:27:24 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 16:30:05 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e6d2f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:32:05 -!- paperkettles [~chris@2001:5c0:1104:f400:226:bbff:fe0c:b57f] has quit [Quit: paperkettles] 16:32:09 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-87-43.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:32:40 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:58 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-9-57.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:35:52 bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:36:18 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:30 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-11-ge-62.122.200.238.utm.if.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:41 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 16:42:59 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:43:06 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:45:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-73.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:47:26 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:48:06 -!- Guthur [~michael@86.148.29.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:55 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:49:58 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:03 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 16:53:05 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:05 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75436b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:46 heh, here's a fun way to get some wacky errors from sbcl 16:56:11 mkdir /tmp/wtf ; cd /tmp/wtf ; rm -rf /tmp/wtf ; sbcl 16:56:34 CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 22947(tid 140737353991904): 16:56:35 Memory fault at f4f7a000 (pc=0x1000722ac5, sp=0x7ffff517d490) 16:56:51 lots of that, then ldb 16:57:10 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-217-90.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 16:58:26 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:59:28 heh 17:00:40 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 17:01:21 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:56 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-92-16.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:02:03 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:02:23 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 17:02:35 this is actually an http question: what is the default charset when it's not stated in the Content-type header? 17:02:44 I've seen US-ASCII in RFC 2046 (MIME types) and ISO-8859-1 in RFC 2616 (HTTP 1.1) 17:02:54 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-33.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:57 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 17:03:15 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:10 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:04:18 pmd: I'm not sure what the ultimate answer is, but the exposure in modern browsers of UI to force a charset suggests to me that nothing is particularly reliable. 17:05:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:06:33 pmd: what the default is is more or less irrelevant 17:06:50 because a browser, if faced with an unspecified charset, will GUESS 17:07:08 I agree with both 17:07:14 (this was especially problematic in the days of windows codepages, when IE in particular guessed by frequency analysis) 17:07:24 rsynnott: it never guesses right for me 17:07:44 my confusion is mostly whether HTTP's default ISO-8859-1 should stand over the text/plain's default US-ASCII 17:08:25 so your blog might be in Russian for years, and then one day you add an entry which messes up the frequency distribution enough that it decides to render it in greek characters 17:08:34 happily, this doesn't actually happen much anymore 17:08:41 pmd: it probably should 17:08:57 but in practice that's not how real-world software handles it anyway 17:08:59 rsynnott: but in the russian case, you should define a charset 17:09:21 there also are Accept-{Charset,Language}: 17:09:22 oh, you should, absolutely! 17:09:36 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:47 but random people making their website in frontpage didn't know this, and, hey, it looked okay when they looked at it in IE! 17:10:09 my intention is to define a simple fall-through charset when none is stated, without analysing content 17:10:38 UTF-8 may actually be a better bet than ISO-8859-1, these days 17:10:49 EBCDIC 17:11:00 (sadly, BOM never caught on enough that you can rely on them being there in UTF-whatever, so that's no help) 17:12:42 well, i'll fall-through to ISO-8859-1, since it's a superset of US-ASCII, and it works whether the client thinks that by not stating a charset it should assume ISO-8859-1 17:13:02 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:13:09 (oh, i forgot to say i'm on the server side, and i always reply with charset=UTF-8) 17:13:30 (so it's a matter of what i do when a client doesn't state the charset of its POSTs) 17:13:45 pmd: ah 17:14:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:14:18 most browsers will do POSTs in the charset of the page that the form is on 17:14:27 in any case, they should always supply a content type 17:14:51 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 17:14:57 I assumed you were on the client side, which is much messier 17:14:57 *stassats* hates encodings babilon 17:15:47 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 17:15:59 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:37 carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.161] has joined #lisp 17:17:26 rsynnott: well... the client side *seems* messier just because there are many more content transfers from server to client than vice-versa, but that's another story :) 17:17:30 thanks everyone 17:18:10 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:12 quick rucksack question: What data does rucksack keep in live memory? Does it force all of a database's instances to stay live? Does it force their _data_ to stay in-memory? 17:20:25 silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:53 if i remember correctly from rucksack.txt, it caches them and cache size is limited 17:21:24 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 17:21:29 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:21:44 stassats: thank you. 17:22:00 Now, does that apply to the _entire_ clos instance, or just the data associated with its slots? 17:22:34 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181209024.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:23:04 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:22 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@2002:4c73:b93b:0:5ab0:35ff:fe75:6f10] has joined #lisp 17:28:13 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:49 Hey, what do you guys think of Clozure CL? 17:29:02 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@2002:4c73:b93b:0:5ab0:35ff:fe75:6f10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:05 i think it's great 17:29:29 is practical common lisp a good book? 17:29:38 TheLolrus: very good. 17:29:38 very good 17:29:42 yay 17:29:59 TheLolrus: it's dead-sexy, even 17:30:11 sweet. 17:30:48 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:31:12 I'm learning lisp because I thought it'd be interesting. I know python already. :P 17:31:16 :) 17:31:19 moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-068-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:19 oh yeah, what do you guys thing of clojure? 17:33:36 usable? useful? any specific gripes you have about it? 17:33:48 OliverUv: mostly, offtopic. 17:34:12 #clojure is a good place to ask clojure questions 17:36:00 alright 17:36:01 thanks 17:36:10 and while youre at it, try asking common lisp related questions there. ;) 17:39:16 xan_ [~xan@xdsl-87-78-103-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112647 plain defmethod without any fancy eql-specialization seems to leak too .. not seeing this in CCL or ECL 17:40:02 .cl or .lisp ? 17:40:09 .lisp 17:40:15 alright. 17:40:59 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:42:23 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 17:42:38 actually, i'd like to hear oppinions about clojure from the point of view of common lispers 17:42:48 lnostdal: defmethod returns a method 17:43:04 pmd: they're quite different languages 17:43:15 there are quite different opinions 17:43:20 what editor is compatible with Clozure CL :\ 17:43:31 TheLolrus: emacs+slime work pretty well. 17:43:32 On principle, I think that Clojure is a good idea. 17:43:32 how true is this statement: There has not really been a lot that is distinctly new in programming languages in the last 25 years, and what a lot of people think is new in languages is just incremental steps toward becoming more like lisp. 17:43:41 stassats, yeah, and then i remove it 17:43:47 sykopomp, I don't want to learn emacs though :\ 17:43:54 emma: 41.74% 17:43:59 TheLolrus: that's unfortunate. You could try clisp, in that case. 17:44:01 lnostdal: i meant to use it instead of sb-mop:generic-function-methods 17:44:05 Xach: that's not bad. 17:44:07 emma: I think that it is not true in any meaningful fashion. 17:44:13 emma: oops, i meant 14.47% 17:44:18 stassats, ah, yeah .. 17:44:23 that's a little worse. 17:44:30 stassats, let's pretend i did that .... :) 17:44:31 emma: I can adjust it until you feel best. 17:44:40 90? :) 17:44:44 Sure, why not. 17:44:46 92%! 17:44:57 emma: Lisps developed many obvious ideas early -- most other languages that develop those same ideas these days are not inspired by lisp, per se. 17:45:01 I made this comment in another channel. They said no it wasn't true. I said no it was, just ask anyone in #lisp. 17:45:09 I was hoping someone here would back me up 17:45:19 emma: Well, can you think of an example? :) 17:45:31 emma: How about generic functions? 17:45:36 Zhivago: ...garbage collection? 17:45:44 Zhivago: okay yeah. I agree that it may not be an intentional effort to be more like lisp. But intentional or not that's how it seems. 17:45:48 generic functions aren't original to lisp, no? 17:45:57 syko: Falls into "obvious idea". 17:46:07 syko: Nothing to do with lisp per se. 17:46:38 Zhivago: I think you give too much credit to people, particularly language designers, if you think generic functions are an obvious idea. 17:46:46 lnostdal: well, it eats lots of CPU, for how long should i run it? 17:46:53 syko: Name a non-lisp that has them ... 17:46:59 well, i was talking with a friend of mine that doesn't know much common lisp but is impressed by clojure. i, on the other hand, am quite familiar with common lisp but not at all with clojure, so i think it would be a good start to have a biased oppinion based on yours 17:47:11 emma: Lisp just happens to be old enough and flexible enough to have been a platform to test quite a lot of stuff :) 17:47:22 syko: Generic functions aren't an obvious idea, and they're not magically flittering around the universe of languages. 17:47:22 Zhivago: as soon as I remember the name of the language that _originated_ them, I'll have your answer. 17:47:36 I seem to recall someone mentioning their real origin. 17:47:41 syko: Generic functions are a counter-example. 17:47:56 I was lamenting really the lack of originality in a broad sense, in all of western civilization, in art and everything else. Everything seems so derivative these days. That's what made me think about computer languages. 17:48:09 emma: Originality is usually bad. 17:48:09 emma: nothing wrong with derivation. 17:48:21 stassats, hmm .. memory use rises quickly here .. setting --dynamic-space-size to 128 leads to a crash soon enough 17:48:22 How would you make something that wasn't a derivation? 17:48:22 There are so many more ways to be wrong than right. 17:48:35 Am I wrong to think that there hasn't been any really profoundly innovative thing in programming languages in say, 20 years? 25? 30? 17:48:46 dlowe: integrate it 17:48:53 stassats: booo 17:48:54 Sure little changes to make things easier to do, but any really new ideas? 17:48:54 emma: there has never been anything profoundly innovative, if what you mean by that is 'completely original' 17:49:15 emma: Depends on what you mean by profound. 17:49:17 emma: you can basically translate other languages to lisp more easily than vice-versa 17:49:30 emma: You need to start using more meaningful language. 17:49:38 emma, visit esolangs.org 17:49:48 what so I can't use clozure cl unless I use emacs? 17:50:21 TheLolrus: That's not the case. Emacs is better than nothing, though. 17:50:21 TheLolrus: you can, it's just that writing Lisp without Emacs tends to be tedious 17:50:24 lisp and scheme were like the end of history 17:50:38 emma: Don't be stupid. 17:50:42 lnostdal: with 128 it crashed after about a minute 17:50:42 TheLolrus: no, the environment will just suck, comparatively. If you're using OSX, though, you can use Clozure's own environment. 17:50:51 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:54 I'm using Fedora 17:50:55 ...which, iirc, is an emacs-like environment. 17:50:56 now you are asking quite a lot :P 17:50:56 and why? 17:50:57 but it's not emacs! 17:51:05 emma: Look at what haskell is doing. Or erlang. Or Qi. Or ... 17:51:21 TheLolrus: SLIME provides a very nice, and advanced, common lisp development environment. 17:51:28 you don't _need_ it, it'll just be more tedious. 17:51:31 True enough i don't know much about any of those. 17:51:34 stassats, ok, and if EQL-specialization is used, pointing to a large object created a new for each iteration, it'll crash very fast .. 17:51:39 you'll be reduced to developing the way python developers develop their applications. 17:51:42 ahah! :D the alfa and the omega. well, character-wise,  <  <  17:51:45 which is kind of a joke by CL standards. 17:51:45 sykopomp, wouldn't it take long just to learn emacs? 17:51:46 emma: You seem nice for a troll, but I suggest you do a bit of research. 17:51:55 TheLolrus: no. Emacs is pretty easy to learn. 17:52:06 specially if you keep the menus. 17:52:28 stassats, (even if sb-pcl::*eql-specializer-table* in pcl/defs.lisp is set to :weakness :value .. perhaps related; i dunno ....) 17:52:48 Zhivago: Okay :) 17:52:55 you can make it feel a lot like a 'regular' editor (move around with arrow keys, control+x/c/v for cut/copy/paste) 17:53:30 TheLolrus: environments like SLIME are one of the biggest selling points for lisp, in my opinion, because they really change the way you develop an application. 17:53:31 would http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/LispbuilderSDL work with Clozure CL 17:53:32 ? 17:53:41 TheLolrus: yes. 17:53:43 then I might try it then :P 17:53:47 sykopomp: I always thought it was disappointing that there was nothing like slime for python 17:53:48 oh sweet 17:54:02 it turns out to be a little impractical, though; in particular, python module reloading is messy 17:54:20 rsynnott: and that even if you try, you can't quite get a lisp-like environment, since redefining python classes doesn't update instances. 17:54:21 Is haskel a lot different than lisp? They are both functional languages. 17:54:33 emma: common lisp isn't really a functional language. 17:54:43 not purely functional 17:54:50 lnostdal: interestingly, the number of conses increases 17:54:59 emma: it doesn't even emphasize function-leves programming 17:55:03 Common lisp is procedural. 17:55:10 hm. i didn't know that. 17:55:11 and common lisp is eagerly evaluated, does type checking at runtime, and has a very different syntax. 17:55:12 emma: Haskell is nearly completely different 17:55:17 i really always thought lisp was functional. 17:55:34 It supports a functional style of programming within a procedural model. 17:55:36 I don't know a lot about any of this stuff, guys, but I'm learning about it. 17:55:39 A bit like C. 17:55:44 Zhivago: I prefer 'multi-paradigm'. I don't think allowing side-effects makes it any more procedural than having lambda makes it functional. 17:55:56 I've mostly learned scheme though. 17:56:04 emma: I'd say neither. It's just that a) Scheme got a hardon for FP b) it's easier to do FP in Lisp than in many "mainstream" langs 17:56:04 syko: What is a procedure? 17:56:05 emma: scheme is not common lisp. 17:56:07 Is scheme more functional than lisp? 17:56:23 emma: No. Scheme is also procedural. 17:56:26 hm. 17:56:37 I don't think i know what FP is then. 17:56:46 syko: I say that a procedure is a sequence of operations over time. 17:56:49 Zhivago: a specific term that schemers like using for functions with side-effects. 17:56:55 :) 17:57:02 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:02 syko: Side-effects have nothing to do with it. 17:57:11 To me FP means you build your procedures to take arguments and produce some result, and the results can be fed to other procedures that do the same. 17:57:21 syko: It's just hard to see the the flow of time without them. 17:57:28 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:37 is FP something different than that? 17:57:43 lnostdal: increases the most, that is 17:57:51 syko: And you're wrong. Schemers use procedure regardless of side-effecting. 17:57:51 emma: some people argue that FP is only 'pure' functional programming. 17:57:55 stassats, ok, i think the sb-c::info stuff in globaldb.lisp uses lists to store its data, but i haven't really figured this stuff out; not sure it is related, except when using eql-specialization it seems shared-initialize :after (eql-specializer t &key) in pcl/std-class.lisp (line ~341) adds the object to the info-db thing .. and yeah, after removing the method i can surely find the object still in that db .. not sure this is related t 17:57:55 o the case when no eql-specialization is used, though 17:58:20 emma: others argue that functional programming is having higher-order functions/procedures. 17:58:31 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:58:32 and then there seems to be some wiggle room as far as how _often_ these are used, when trying to label a language. 17:59:06 in scheme and i think probably cl also, the procedures are first class. 17:59:15 so python might have functions as first-class objects, and technically have map/filter/reduce, but it's not considered a functional language because these are not really commonly used. 17:59:21 I hope to god a lot of lisp users don't use macs. 17:59:22 lnostdal: i know that some kind of INFO isn't removed on threaded builds, but i don't remember which and whether it's relevant 17:59:32 And also because it is procedural, too. :) 17:59:34 TheLolrus: a lot of them do?... 17:59:34 yeah so does javascript really, i think. 17:59:42 stassats, ok 17:59:46 Zhivago: well what's the definition of 'procedural' then? 17:59:49 And javascript is procedural, too. 18:00:01 Zhivago: what is a functional language, then? 18:00:01 syamajala, I don't know, a lot of screenshots I see of slime and other lisp stuff are on OSX 18:00:04 don't know why 18:00:11 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:00:14 emma: In a procedure you proceed from one operation to the next in a sequence over time. 18:00:18 TheLolrus: Why is OSX a problem? 18:00:26 emma: A function, on the other hand, is a relationship that exists outside of time. 18:00:30 schmrkc, I hate it. O.o 18:00:32 stassats, that seems like a bad idea IIUC; adding and removing methods is sort of the dynamic language thing(?) .. *shrug* .. no leaking in CCL, though 18:00:46 TheLolrus: Are you 15 years old? 18:01:02 emma: Essentially procedural languages have time, and functional languages don't. 18:01:06 schmrkc, ._. 18:01:10 Zhivago: then it's hard to believe any language is functional because they are all running on computers. 18:01:20 emma: Irrelevant nonsense. 18:01:24 schmrkc, personal attacks I see? 18:01:39 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:01:48 emma: That computer is a machine that runs an implementation of the program specified in the language. 18:01:48 TheLolrus: Attacks? 18:01:55 TheLolrus: Sure. I'm mostly curious. It seems a bit irrational to hate an OS. And I know that a lot of dem 15 year old linux users hate MS. 18:01:59 TheLolrus: that's because MaCOS is a convenient UNIX-alike which has historically worked well on laptops, I suspect 18:02:04 or used to anyway. Perhaps hating MS is not the in thing anymore. 18:02:06 emma: How that implementation works is irrelevant -- what is important is the specification and its semantics. 18:02:10 lnostdal: i was referring to sb-kernel::ctype-of-cache-clear, but calling it doesn't change anything 18:02:19 ._. 18:02:19 Zhivago: the computer has to calculate something procedurally to decide what the image of the function is? 18:02:32 Zhivago: so what is a functional language? An example. 18:02:32 emma: For all you know your programs might be being run by people doing interpretative dance -- who cares? 18:02:39 back in the day, running Linux on a laptop was a bit of an ordeal, due to manufacturers treating ACPI as more a set of vague guidelines than a standard 18:02:44 syko: Haskell is one. There are plenty of others. 18:02:44 emma, you're a trolololol 18:02:46 TheLolrus: And I can somewhat relate. When I was 15 I hated SAAB, because my dad drove a Volvo. 18:02:51 no im not 18:03:06 emma: You're confusing the implementation of something with the specification of something. 18:03:14 emma: A program in a language is a specification. 18:03:15 Zhivago: Monads or not, you can still sequence operations in haskell. 18:03:26 so it has time, even if it tries to pretend it doesn't. 18:03:27 schmrkc, actually it's because I'm a free software activist. 18:03:29 Zhivago: There is no functional programming language, if you go by that definition. 18:03:35 TheLolrus: Anyway, I don't see how it could possibly worry you what operating system other lisp users use 18:03:47 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:50 syko: No. You can add a variables and treat them as though they mean things at different times. 18:03:59 (i can't resist) is Mac OS X functional? 18:04:15 TheLolrus: Ok. So why does this make you so full of hatred? 18:04:20 osx is Unix certified ;) 18:04:25 Zhivago: sounds like procedural programming. 18:04:27 *rsynnott* dislikes OS fundamentalism 18:04:32 Deltafire: but only on Intel, oddly 18:04:35 Zhivago: 'compiling' down to monads is no different than 'compiling' down to SSA. 18:04:58 if you want to argue abstraction levels. 18:05:02 syko: You're being confused by macros :) 18:05:14 Zhivago: which compile code :) 18:05:19 just like compilers do. 18:05:19 TheLolrus: Shall we turn this into the good ol' BSD vs. GPL ? 18:05:27 oh, please, no 18:05:32 syko: No. Which rewrite your code to carry addition variables. 18:05:35 vim vs emacs please :D 18:05:47 Zhivago: it's just code rewriting. 18:05:51 Deltafire: vim runs in emacs, emacs does not run in vim. Flawless victory. 18:05:54 syko: Yes. It's just code rewriting. 18:05:58 Zhivago: your argument seems irrelevant, if you're just basing it on level of abstraction. 18:06:10 syko: The semantic universe in which that code operates has no sense of time. 18:06:24 not to mention the fact that the 'abstraction' in haskell makes it behave just as procedurally when it comes to the real world. 18:06:32 syko: You've just slapped on a variable and said "I'll treat this like it means something like time". 18:06:39 i wish i really understood what Zhivago was saying. 18:06:47 syko: No. It makes it appear procedural to the programmer. 18:06:53 It seems pretty awesome if some problem can actually be solved without 'steps' 18:06:57 Zhivago: correct. 18:07:04 emma: Pretty much you can safely ignore the whole "functional" and "procedural" words and just write code. 18:07:05 Zhivago: You're talking from the wrong orifice. 18:07:16 Zhivago: That is what compilers do. 18:07:17 syko: How procedurally it behaves in 'the real world' depends on how the compiler decides to deal with what happens after that appearance is taken away. 18:07:24 emma: math is without steps quite often :) 18:07:28 it lets the programmer pretend they don't have to carefully fit things into registers. 18:07:30 odin: Please be quiet until you have something intelligent to say. 18:07:31 do you mean that when a program written in a functional language executes it all happens all at once? it's not like one function and then another and so on? It's all sort of instantaneous? 18:07:39 really, you're just arguing about levels of abstraction. 18:07:41 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:07:42 i know more about math than I do about CS 18:07:48 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has left #lisp 18:07:53 syko: No. Really I'm talking about models of the universe. 18:07:56 and Haskell, even if it wants to pretend it's side-effect-free, still semantically supports side-effects. 18:08:02 emma: No, he means that he doesn't care about reality. 18:08:12 emma: When you program stuff in haskell, for example, it gets compiled to code that is executed one op after another. 18:08:24 emma: Basically, he's pretending that maths is the real world, rather than a poor approximation. 18:08:33 syko: In one model you have an implicit notion of time. In another model you don't -- but you can simulate it by passing around additional parameters. 18:08:39 sykopomp: well you have to have some outer functions with side effect capability, else how you can communicate with the user or files or anything 18:08:43 Odin: Wrong. 18:08:46 emma: But this is not something you put in your code. Like what order stuff is done and so. 18:09:08 Zhivago: How so? 18:09:09 Odin: I see that your talent for malcomprehension hasn't left you. :) 18:09:09 i see. 18:09:25 Odin: Find anywhere that I make any such claim. 18:09:35 emma: the substitution model might be a good place to start to get a feel for functional programming 18:09:48 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 18:09:51 Zhivago: Errr. What? 18:09:54 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:10:06 emma: But also there are like 50 defitions on just what is functional programming. So it depends on who you ask. 18:10:11 i worked through the substitution model in scheme. But that does seem very 'orderly'. Because one thing is evaluated first and then substituted etc.. 18:10:11 Zhivago: I'd rather press you for somewhere you *don't*. 18:10:13 emma: definitions. 18:10:25 Odin: So, you can't? 18:10:26 Zhivago: Only, since it's not explicit, I couldn't really expect you to notice. 18:10:45 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:46 Odin: A liar and a troll ... 18:10:49 Zhivago: "I'm talking about models of the universe" comes pretty close to saying it outright. 18:10:50 emma yes but the importance in the substitution model is the minimization or elimination of state 18:11:05 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-126.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:20 Odin: Then you do not understand that statement. 18:11:30 Zhivago: honestly, I still disagree. I believe that 'simulation', if it amounts to the same end result (being able to order operations in terms of real world time), ends up with basically the same thing. 18:11:37 even if the semantic model is 'cleaner'. 18:11:43 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:08 kinda bothers me .. and it's weird; _no_ one is using eql-specialization methods to dispatch when handling UI events, for instance? .. doing that now would lead to all widgets referred to (specialized on) leaking .. stassats :P 18:12:24 Odin: If you think that "models" implies that "maths is the real world", then you have a severe problem. 18:12:40 ya end result will be pretty much the same. Perhaps if one had a 'functional' CPU and stuff.. not so. 18:12:43 syko: It ends up with being able to achieve the same results. 18:12:50 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 18:12:51 Zhivago: You really are a class-A twit, aren't you? 18:12:57 oh gosh 18:13:00 sigh 18:13:13 Odin-: if you're just going to start flinging insults, please take it to /q 18:13:15 syko: But that doesn't mean that you're achieving them in the same way. 18:13:44 Odin: No cogent reply, then? 18:13:45 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 Zhivago: You said you were talking about different models of the universe. One of those models is maths, the other is reality. You're arguing that the maths model is superior. Hence, you're arguing that maths is reality, rather than a poor approximation. 18:14:07 Odin-: I don't see how he's arguing that. 18:14:08 Odin: Wrong. Reality isn't a model. Maths isn't a model either. 18:14:09 Zhivago: I made no extrapolation out of the single word 'model'. 18:14:36 Odin: What did you extrapolate it from? 18:14:44 schmrkc, sorry was playing with my doggy :D 18:14:46 Odin-: I'm not quite sure we are reading the same IRC channel here. 18:14:53 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:53 I see you are all involved in a lively and productive discussion about issues that are useful in the real world in obvious and pragmatic ways. 18:14:53 the uncertainty principle would indicate that in some cases, math is the *only* model 18:14:57 Who wants popcorn? 18:14:57 Odin has a severe comprehension disorder. 18:14:57 we have to be able to communicate some of these ideas better. 18:15:09 TheLolrus: eehm.. I must inform you, as an unbiased cat owner, that cats are by far the superior animal. 18:15:11 Unfortunately it appears to be getting worse over time. 18:15:13 TheLolrus: (: 18:15:24 emma: I think the big lesson to take home is that not everyone agrees on what 'functional' programming is. 18:15:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181209024.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:33 astalla [~astalla@93-36-224-71.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:15:36 TheLolrus: I didn't mean to insult you with 15 year old! I have sleep deprevation and I'm a bit grumpy :P 18:15:39 likewise, I don't think everyone agrees on what 'object-oriented' programming is. 18:15:48 Zhivago: If you ever tried to actually _explain_ what it is that I'm supposedly misunderstanding, I might take you more seriously. 18:15:56 schmrkc, BSD allows proprietary works, and Apple's products are proprietary. And they want a "open web" yet even their browser is closed. 18:16:19 schmrkc, heh about the cat comment. By the way, I was insulted because I'm 12 ;) 18:16:36 Odin: So far all of the claims you have made about what I've been saying have been incorrect, and everyone else seems to think you're gibbering incoherently, so I think we can sum it up with "everything". 18:16:51 i know a little bit about math i wonder if this is kind of like a mathematical proof. In a mathematical proof in some sense the theorem is connected to the hypothesis conditions in a timeless way, but on the other hand to follow the reasoning you cant help but read one line at a time. 18:17:07 TheLolrus: I am insulted by all twelve year olds who use IRC! Please feel ashamed of yourself. 18:17:07 emma: sure, why not. 18:17:12 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:17:16 emma: Consider the function x -> x*2. 18:17:16 lichtblau: Are you going to update hemlock re the iolib ewouldblock thing? 18:17:30 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 Makoryu, nooooooooooooo 18:17:33 emma: If we have 2, then we'll get back 4, and that can't change. 18:17:36 Zhivago: I don't mean just this one instance, but whatever. 18:17:47 emma: well a mathematical function uses the substitution model too 18:17:55 emma: The function is a relationship that exists outside of time. 18:18:04 Oh the humanity! 18:18:07 okay 18:18:12 Odin: Yes. You appear to have a severe and ongoing problem with basic comprehension. 18:18:22 emma: Imagine that you built everything like that. 18:18:28 I think i've seen the word 'immutable' used and it might be the word to desribe that? 18:18:40 gigamonkey [~user@c-24-7-84-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:41 emma: So that you'd eventually have a function where you put in your question, and got back the answer. 18:19:00 okay 18:19:24 emma: That would be a program built by composing functions, and there would be no idea of 'time' or 'change' in it. 18:19:58 Zhivago: (lambda (x) (* x 2))? :) 18:20:00 It seems that TheLolrus's shift-key is hanging: 10.7% of the time he/she wrote UPPERCASE. 18:20:01 For example, like this: 18:20:01 FFFUUUU 18:20:02 that's interesting because one interpretation of a 'function' is that it is a mathematical object for modeling change. 18:20:03 Odin-: If an assertion that you are stupid is not enough explanation for you to figure out what you don't understand, then you must in fact be such an assgoblin that you can't hope to ever understand Zhivago's infinite wisdom 18:20:05 rofl 18:20:10 oops wrong channel 18:20:12 >.< 18:20:20 emma: In a procedural system you have time and change, but by avoiding those you can produce procedures that implement functions. 18:20:22 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:23 Zhivago: Which is the mathematical model of the universe, right? 18:20:30 Odin: What is? 18:20:33 you can think of a function as being this very static relation between a domain and a codomain but you could also interpret it as a transformation of the domain 'into' the image 18:20:50 Zhivago: The one where you have pure functions without state, time and change. 18:21:30 Odin: That's a computational model here. It isn't modeling the universe. 18:21:53 Odin: You could try to set up a model of the universe in such a computational model, but that's another story. 18:22:15 Zhivago: So you *weren't* talking about two models of the universe, as you said earlier? 18:22:19 emma: Just as long as by 'transformation' you don't imply 'change'. 18:22:38 It's kind of nuanced and it depends on how you look at it. 18:22:46 Odin: I guess you have difficulty with context. 18:22:59 Zhivago: Where's the context change? 18:23:12 emma: f(1) -> 2 doesn't mean 1 is now 2. 18:23:15 1 is still 1. 18:23:27 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:28 so I don't really consider that change. 18:23:32 From one perspective a function is a set. It's as changless as can be. But from another perspective that unchanging set is modeling change. It's a transformation of the domain into its image in the codomain. 18:23:53 Odin: At the point where you introduce "reality" you're not talking about the computational system any more. 18:24:11 emma: I interpret "change"/"transformation" to mean that the original set no longer exists in its original form. 18:24:28 emma: If the domain changes, then it isn't a function. 18:24:34 Zhivago: Even if the only possible use for the computational system is its interaction with reality? 18:24:53 Odin: What does that have to do with modeling reality? 18:25:25 TheLolrus: My gosh. We must not start the BSD vs. GPL here. #lisp is very bored of this :) 18:25:36 schmrkc, heh 18:25:56 schmrkc: sometimes, I want to GPL all my code just to tick off the BSD nerds. 18:26:11 also, public domain > BSD 18:26:25 sykopomp: (: 18:26:33 if you think developers should have control, at least don't be a hypocrite. 18:26:38 sykopomp: I'd love to put all I do in the PD. But it can not be done with swedish laws. 18:26:57 schmrkc: oh? Sweden is one of those exceptions? 18:27:05 sykopomp: Other way around. 18:27:08 sykopomp: Yup. 18:27:17 sykopomp: "Public Domain" for new stuff is a very unusual concept. 18:27:27 why is it against swedish laws? 18:27:28 Odin-: what are you talking about? 18:27:37 schmrkc: then use MIT/BSD or a similar license 18:27:48 Odin-: I dunno. It seems I found a hecklot of PD on "new stuff" back in my amiga days. 18:28:05 sykopomp: Is there a public-domain-like license you recommend? 18:28:28 sykopomp: I mean, the WTFPL comes to mind, but you may well have other preferences 18:28:29 sykopomp: Works that are, chronologically, subject to copyright, cannot be placed in the public domain in most countries. 18:28:33 Makoryu: public domain is not a license. 18:28:40 sykopomp: I know it's not. 18:28:43 -!- UnwashedMeme1 [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 18:28:44 TheLolrus: If you create something in sweden you own it. There is no way to un-own it. 18:28:45 Makoryu: if you want to go public domain, put your work in the public domain. 18:28:56 schmrkc, oh. 18:28:57 unless you're not allowed to by law. 18:29:04 sykopomp: The problem with "placing a work in the public domain" is that many countries have no provision for explicitly releasing it into the public domain 18:29:06 in which case, MIT does the trick for those exceptions. 18:29:10 TheLolrus: other than dying + waiting :) 18:29:15 schmrkc, heh 18:29:23 Makoryu: you're free to license it as MIT only for exceptional jurisdictions. 18:29:28 sykopomp: Okay, that's what I was asking 18:29:47 hello, is there a way to loop through all ascii characters? 18:29:47 "I place this work into the public domain. In jurisdictions where this is not legal, consider it MIT licensed." 18:29:49 Makoryu: Many explicitly do not allow it to be done. 18:30:32 somthing like 'a'..'z' in perl? 18:30:38 Odin-: Hmm, interesting. I had assumed in good faith that some countries just have incompetent copyright law, rather than actively destructive copyright law 18:30:43 sykopomp: f(1) -> 2 is like having a ductile wire that you are stretching. 18:31:04 Makoryu: DMCA is pretty destructive. 18:31:04 zard1989: do you want all of ascii or just the alphabet? 18:31:07 so is ACTA. 18:31:16 Makoryu: maybe you're too optimistic about the nature of the copyright lobby. 18:31:18 sykopomp: or if you have some function that takes a set of vectors and returns a set of vectors so that it describes a rotation. that's what i mean. 18:31:19 Xach: just the alphabet 18:31:23 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 18:31:24 sykopomp: Nonsensical. If you can place it in the public domain, it's in the public domain elsewhere, even where authors cannot usually place stuff in the public domain. 18:31:28 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:29 a function is a very static thing that from another perspective has 'motion' 18:31:49 zard1989: one easy way is to make a literal string with the characters you want and then something like (loop for char across *alphabet* do ...) 18:32:03 Makoryu: It's a result of U.S. and English copyright law being bolted on to other legal regimes. 18:32:08 sykopomp: Well yes, I'm aware that the US's copyright law is totally broken. But at least it permits an early release of a work into the public domain. 18:32:15 sykopomp: speaking of lobby. It seems that some lobby organisation has gotten real far with pushing the "you can use this device for pirating music so you must pay extra fee directly to the music industry" on to cellphones here! 18:32:19 Odin-: not in jurisdictions that do not consider works to be public domain unless X years have passed. 18:32:20 *Makoryu* sighs 18:32:27 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-24-7-84-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:34 Makoryu: When the "no such thing as public domain" came into existence, copyright only covered what are called "moral rights" in the U.S. thingummy. 18:33:30 Odin-, sykopomp, do you happen to know if any country has laws prohibiting permissive copyright licenses like the MIT license? 18:33:54 Makoryu: I believe poland prevents you from selling MITd software? 18:33:55 Because that would be way more fascinating than boneheaded laws about public domain 18:34:02 I think I was talking with p_l about something like this. 18:34:17 -!- chiiph [~chiiph@gentoo/developer/chiiph] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:27 something about not being allowed to sell things without warranty. 18:34:34 Xach: thanks. i guess there is no built-in function for this. 18:34:35 chiiph [~chiiph@dumbledore.com.ar] has joined #lisp 18:34:35 -!- chiiph [~chiiph@dumbledore.com.ar] has quit [Changing host] 18:34:35 chiiph [~chiiph@gentoo/developer/chiiph] has joined #lisp 18:34:45 hoh. countries allow selling without a warranty? 18:34:50 sykopomp: never heard of that for software 18:34:57 very common for physical products 18:35:00 sykopomp: Well, I know for a fact that that is not the case where I am. 18:35:10 rsynnott: I remember someone mentioning it to me. I believe it was p_l 18:35:20 zard1989: nope. 18:36:10 sykopomp: Where, indeed, authors cannot release their works into a public domain, because the legal framework was established to ensure that _credit_ couldn't be stolen, rather than preventing others from making money. 18:36:14 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:57 I don't know how to 'steal' credit. 18:37:07 is this like copyright 'theft'? 18:37:09 the public domain thing is a different issue; deliberately releasing a new work into the public domain is questionable in many if not most juristictions 18:37:36 sykopomp: You were not allowed to publish a book by another author in your own name. 18:37:37 rsynnott: questionable does not equal illegal. 18:38:07 Odin-: that's plagiarism, and it strikes me as a different crime from 'theft'. 18:38:37 sykopomp: s/steal/take/; 18:38:45 'misrepresent' 18:38:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:48 sykopomp: it's not so much illegal as that there is no way to do it, and it is invalid 18:38:49 zard1989: (loop for i from 10 below 36 for char = (digit-char i 36) ...) 18:39:20 so if you release something as 'public domain', you could, in some places, then turn around and tell users they're violating your copyright 18:39:28 sykopomp: And, yes, that's plagiarism. That's exactly the thing that author's right (the system used pretty much everywhere but the U.K. and U.S.) was established to prevent. 18:39:35 (because there is no such thing as releasing something in the public domain in some countries) 18:39:58 in practice, this is highly unlikely to ever happen; if nothing else it could be viewed as fraudulent on the part of the releaser 18:40:13 sykopomp: Copyright, on the contrary, was established to prevent non-rightsholders from making money from publishing works without the consent of the author. 18:40:37 what's the difference between releasing to the public domain and releasing with a licence that says "anyone can do anything with this"? 18:40:44 sykopomp: Another interesting distinction between the two schemes is that author's right is inalienable. 18:40:51 astalla: Your name on it. 18:41:06 astalla: the latter works nearly everywhere, and you retain the copyright 18:41:16 the former is a scary legal mess 18:41:19 sykopomp: (Which is why you can't put stuff in the public domain, incidentally.) 18:41:57 Odin-: in poland, you mean? 18:42:06 Did we ever agree on what object oriented programming was? 18:42:10 sykopomp: In continental Europe. 18:42:26 ok, I get it... note taken, public domain is a no-no :) 18:42:32 schmrkc: stop deliberately trying to introduce horrible arguments :( 18:42:33 schmrkc: Such an agreement is strictly imaginary. You are more likely to encounter a unicorn. 18:42:45 stassats: thanks! though the length of alphabet is half of the macro :p 18:43:12 rsynnott: Sorry. I thought it was talked about a bit back after the fp discussion, and I was interested in if there was some agreement. 18:43:22 Makoryu: Cools. 18:43:31 sykopomp: (Or, actually, in those bits of Europe not under the British Crown.) 18:43:42 (At the time.) 18:43:43 ah, okay, I thought it was just an attempt to replace an annoying argument with a different annoying argument :) 18:44:22 rsynnott: Nah. I saw something about OO and then I went outside on the balcony for a bit. and then I come back to the copyright law. 18:44:39 rsynnott: I fear maybe I actually started this when I joked with that there lolrus about bsd vs gpl :( 18:45:04 *schmrkc* can't quite scroll that far back. 18:45:10 symbole_ [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:11 Indirectly. 18:45:21 schmrkc: I like trolling people by telling them that Java/Python/C++/etc aren't really OO. 18:45:37 sykopomp: How about COBOL 2002? 18:45:44 Odin-: totally OO, srsly. 18:46:06 sykopomp: I haven't even been trolling today :(((( 18:46:21 schmrkc: hard to tell sometimes, since you brought up bsd vs gpl :) 18:46:47 sykopomp: Yaaa.. it was more me poking fun about that there lolrus hating os x :( 18:47:04 when I do troll I fail, when I don't I fail. 18:47:06 oh gosh. 18:47:10 reality distortion field, etc. 18:47:28 sykopomp: obviously OO is a lie anyway. It all gets put into registers anyway :) 18:47:38 double anyway. 18:47:39 eh 18:47:41 *schmrkc* needs some sleep. 18:47:49 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:50 schmrkc: so do 'functional' languages, which brings us back to the beginning. 18:47:55 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Quit: kernel upgrade] 18:48:05 yup yup. 18:48:07 now we can talk about eternal golden braids. 18:48:17 isn't that some book? 18:48:18 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:21 yes :P 18:49:08 this conversation is way off the map, topic wise. 18:49:13 heh 18:49:14 yeah. 18:49:22 I'm gonna go buy some cheese to see if things go back to normal. 18:50:29 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 18:50:39 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:41 Fade: Which map would that be? 18:50:57 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:51:58 Fade: still on territory though ? 18:52:08 the map is not the territory. 18:52:10 etc etc. 18:52:11 =D 18:52:23 map of discussions about lisp, sane discussions 18:52:52 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 18:54:08 thanks to Alfred Korzybski, we know where we are on the map 18:55:58 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:32 ... we are not. 18:57:35 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:45 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:23 *rsynnott* was going to make a terrible pun involving mapcar, but perhaps it's best avoided 18:58:28 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:29 -!- symbole_ [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]] 18:59:35 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:43 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:54 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:11 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-92.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:00:32 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:41 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:01:42 erg I don't like emacs 19:01:47 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:49 sykopomp: in Poland, "public domain" is kinda like MIT license 19:02:07 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:11 MIT license works fine 19:02:53 it's just that *author* rights are untransferrable (nor you can give them up), however *financial* rights are 19:03:07 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:04:49 TheLolrus: it's worth the trouble. 19:04:56 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:05:45 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 19:06:17 rsynnott: possibly map nil ("we're not getting anything out of it") 19:06:30 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:07:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:43 It seems eating cheese solved the problems. 19:07:56 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:09:04 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 19:09:13 -!- chiiph [~chiiph@gentoo/developer/chiiph] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:30 chiiph [~chiiph@gentoo/developer/chiiph] has joined #lisp 19:09:44 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ip67-88-206-98.z206-88-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B47E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:12:14 TheLolrus: I am using Limp for vim, it is working pretty well actually! 19:12:29 I've tried learning both vim and emacs and I hate it 19:12:32 :\ 19:12:45 it has the best slogan "Limp: when you need more than just a Lisp" 19:12:55 it's a pun about disabilities! 19:12:59 that's not very tasteful 19:13:36 TheLolrus: emacs for lisp is like eclipse for java. 19:13:37 TheLolrus: I recommend learning one of them. It is an investment of your time that will pay off. Download and print a cheat-sheet for all the most normal commands 19:13:45 ergonomically speaking, I'd recommend vim 19:13:51 it may not be your preferred environment, but when you use it in context, it's quite fantastic. 19:13:57 because emacs has you bending your fingers and contorting your hands all the time 19:14:01 how bout http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/os-eclipse-lispcusp/index.html 19:14:15 however, emacs is usually more popular and better integrated with ... most things 19:14:22 lisp, universities 19:14:27 emacs works nice when not with dvorak 19:14:30 I was under the impression that CUSP (like Limp) was no longer maintained. 19:14:47 billitch: I disagree. Emacs is just fine with dvorak. 19:15:03 it still works 19:15:05 I hope :P 19:15:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:15:13 works fine with colemak, too. I do have the control key mapped to the keys next to the space bar 19:15:18 that seems to help the most 19:15:21 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 well i have to try dvorak then =D 19:15:43 dlowe: why not caps? 19:15:53 sykopomp: Limp might not be maintainted, I think the last updates are from '08, but the bitrot hasn't gotten to it yet! 19:15:58 billitch: You mean you havent tried emacs with dvorak, yet you imply that it is not a good combo? 19:16:01 sykopomp: symmetry 19:16:23 ah 19:16:27 that is so OCD 19:16:34 dlowe: I've gone back to working on that MUD, by the way. 19:16:37 please notice that i never implied anything about dvorak, only about, quote, not dvorak. 19:16:43 would cusp work with Clozure CL? 19:16:47 dlowe: I'd love to ask you questions if you're up for it. 19:16:52 billitch: Well I misread it then. 19:17:02 sykopomp: cool. I stopped working on mine. I got distracted by another game design altogether 19:17:11 sykopomp: see you in #lispgames :) 19:17:17 dlowe: alright! :) 19:18:32 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:44 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:36 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 19:30:49 navigator [~navigator@p54892D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:58 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.132.72] has joined #lisp 19:31:19 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:42 is ccl's arm port already usable? 19:32:57 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 19:37:35 turbo24prg: there's an arm port? cool 19:40:18 checked timeline and there's a branch 19:40:27 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:41:57 hmm... I wonder if it's further along than ARM port of SBCL 19:42:08 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 19:43:02 p_l: since it's probably for paid work, I would expect so. 19:43:23 clozure's latest twitter has a subtle hint 19:43:32 erm, tweet, that is 19:44:31 hmmm 19:45:14 well, if they have an ARM port, they'd also need to address memory usage (assuming their port is for the purpose of running code on iOS/android/moblin/meego 19:45:17 ) 19:46:53 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:46:56 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:31 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ip67-88-206-98.z206-88-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 19:47:49 sykopomp: iOS is already scrapped, I'd say 19:47:52 sykopomp: ccl uses less memory than sbcl, at least for me, at least on x86 19:48:11 and yes, CCL has lower memory usage it seems 19:48:45 *p_l* had several megabytes worth of difference, enough to consider switching to CCL for his project 19:49:44 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 19:50:30 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:51:38 is ecl useable on arm/linux? 19:51:57 pkhuong: discontinuity.info down? 19:51:59 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:26 Xach: pinging the admin (: 19:52:33 Odin-` [~sbkhh@157.157.121.26] has joined #lisp 19:52:43 *Xach* needs his string-case.lisp fix! 19:54:12 turbo24prg: yes 19:54:27 turbo24prg: clisp works fine on arm/linux too. 19:54:31 turbo24prg: ECL afaik tends to have problems not related to cpu architecture 19:55:08 Xach: I just uploaded a temporary copy at . Working on quicklisp? 19:55:19 also, it was probablythe first CL I've got to run on win32 with threads 19:55:19 -!- coyo [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 19:55:47 pkhuong: yeah. i actually have a cached copy, so it's not a major deal. it just hung my updates for a bit. 19:55:47 alt24 [~user@207.178.208.5] has joined #lisp 19:56:01 turbo24prg: GCL, which is a distant relative of ECL, ran on Windows CE/arm in the past (possibly still) 19:56:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:15 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:45 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:57:17 p_l, schmrkc: thanks for the hints 19:57:46 p_l: if anything, CCL has some advantages when it comes to actual development. 19:58:03 "it'll compile so fast, you'll think it broke" is a relevant comment I read once. 19:59:03 aha 19:59:04 *haha 19:59:06 heh 19:59:32 sykopomp: well, both things are arguments for its use in my project 19:59:55 chiiph_ [~chiiph@dumbledore.com.ar] has joined #lisp 20:00:41 -!- chiiph [~chiiph@gentoo/developer/chiiph] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:02:26 p_l: SBCL still complise pretty speedy code, so it's still appealing for final distribution :) 20:02:31 compiles* 20:03:20 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:28 Xach: looks like a network hiccup between the prairies and the east coast. 20:03:36 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 heh. The prairies. 20:04:43 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:53 sykopomp: maybe, but I think CCL will still curb&stomp performance of PHP and Ruby :) 20:05:42 that is probably true. 20:06:26 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:06:54 and that's what the competition will be probably using (with occassional Java or JVM-based language... but it's "passe") 20:07:28 web application, I guess? 20:07:38 are you using any particular web framework? 20:07:39 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:51 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:03 sykopomp: writing my own 20:08:39 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:11:06 fatblueduck [~chris@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:38 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-13827.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:30 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 20:12:38 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:12:51 sykopomp: part of the project :) 20:16:47 also, none of the frameworks fit me 20:18:03 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:20:35 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:18 -!- rrice [~rrice@99.164.35.250] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:24:39 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:54 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:54 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 20:29:49 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:07 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-164.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:41 ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-55-164.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:00 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:50:52 Having a spot of bother with cl-opengl and clozure on win32. 20:50:54 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.240.204.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:51:22 ccl claims get-integer-v is an undefined function, but it looks as if it's defined in funcs.lisp 20:51:41 had to roll back to my swigged opengl binding 20:53:41 francogrex [~user@109.130.92.76] has joined #lisp 20:54:31 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75436b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:54 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-swdckmpetjdgwlbr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:08 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-161-184.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:59:25 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:01:34 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.238.252.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:02:36 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-55-164.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 21:03:40 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-73.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:04:59 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54892D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06:12 ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-55-164.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:09 rirombo [~rirombo@h113.187.19.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:37 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-88-20.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:36 navigator [~navigator@p54892D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:33 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:40 Good evening everyone! 21:13:06 ferada [~user@g230248110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:14 beach: good evening 21:13:20 Hi 21:14:14 ZabaQ, You would most like have to use %gl to get it 21:14:36 %gl:get-integer-v 21:15:15 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-068-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:39 The low level bindings are all available through %gl. They are not necessarily exposed directly through gl 21:15:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 21:16:23 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:33 minion: chant 21:16:34 MORE GENERAL 21:16:48 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:48 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:03 Unfortunately ECL continues having build problems on my windows. Anyone using it succeeded with the new version? 21:18:56 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:00 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:12 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:19:27 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:19:27 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:19:27 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:20:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:39 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-224-71.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 21:20:45 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:20:52 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:22:25 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:36 Is there a lib for Serial port IO 21:22:40 ? 21:24:37 francogrez: win32 build is missing serialize.c 21:25:08 francogrex: fixed that and a few other things, but need a win32 getuid() replacement to make it work. Stuck 21:25:32 Guthur: (with-open-file (stream "/dev/ttyS0") ...) 21:25:44 Gutur: silliness. 21:26:01 I hate this keyboard 21:26:03 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:26:07 stassats: You can't set the speed that way though 21:26:28 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:29:08 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-217-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:29:16 Guthur: you can 21:29:22 -!- rirombo [~rirombo@h113.187.19.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:29:40 if you use ccl you could look at ccl:library;serial-streams.lisp 21:30:10 ZabaQ: ok thanks. Hope it works out well. 21:30:27 Does anyone know of a library (or extension to SBCL) that has specially efficient hash tables for the case where keys are strings? 21:30:40 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-206-155.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:25 rpg: SBCL is not efficient in this case? 21:31:31 lispm [~joswig@d221128.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:44 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:47 stassats: How? 21:32:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.92.76] has quit [Quit: it's late here, see you tomorrow.] 21:32:46 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:59 It may not be a speed issue though, you see I had tried w-o-f but I got a decoding error on stream 21:33:12 Guthur: (sb-posix:tcsetattr (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd stream) ... ...) 21:34:40 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:37:41 rpg: If EQ tables are fast enough, you could define your own fast hash function on strings and use the hash value as the key. 21:38:01 paperkettles [~chris@2001:5c0:1104:f400:226:bbff:fe0c:b57f] has joined #lisp 21:38:16 rtoym: Yep. I was going to just pull a string hash-function from the literature and use that. But I figured it was likely that someone had already done the work ;-) 21:39:21 Maybe sbcl already has a fast string hashing function. I don't know though. 21:39:56 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54892D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:38 rtoym: My colleague didn't see it in the manual; I'll troll around the source. 21:44:52 rtoym: Looks like it has sxhash-simple-string... 21:45:11 rtoym: I'll check and see how well it's working for us. 21:47:57 TomJ [~tomj@78.146.242.48] has joined #lisp 21:48:57 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:05 is there a function to dynamically create a package nickname 21:49:08 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B47E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:25 (package-nickname #@red #:hotscarlet) ? 21:49:52 rename-package 21:50:49 Krystof: But don't I have to rename the package as well? 21:51:18 Ah, no.. 21:52:37 timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-126.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:54 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.132.72] has quit [Quit: bye!] 21:55:28 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:12 ZabaQ: AFAIK, yes you have to rename the package too. So you have to call rename-package twice. 21:58:24 TomJ- [~tomj@89.240.46.92] has joined #lisp 21:58:27 (let 21:58:27 "The consequences are undefined if new-name or any new-nickname conflicts with any existing package names." tells it clearly. 21:58:40 oh, no, no, don't be ridiculous 21:59:19 (rename-package name name) isn't going to cause trouble 21:59:23 -!- Odin-` [~sbkhh@157.157.121.26] has quit [Quit: Whatever.] 21:59:49 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 22:00:47 It could. 22:00:59 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:52 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0084.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:01:53 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0084.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 22:01:53 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 22:02:18 -!- TomJ [~tomj@78.146.242.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:56 if anybody could take a quick look at this I'd appreciate it 22:02:59 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6174666/almavis.lisp 22:03:00 In any case, what does it cost to write instead (rename-package (rename-package name (gensym)) name) ? 22:03:34 In a fresh sbcl instance, I first load some code with lots of defuns and such, which all go into common-lisp-user 22:03:35 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Quit: Oo] 22:04:02 after that, I do (require 'asdf) and (require 'almavis), which compiles and loads this code 22:04:15 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:27 problem is with the (import ...) statements, it says I have conflicting symbols in the almavis package 22:04:44 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:05:00 I do not understand why. As far as I know, nothing with those names has been run in the almavis package yet, unless the compliation caused the symbols to be created 22:05:12 (they are used further down in the code) 22:05:13 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.73.16.plusnet.thn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:19 Share the code, friend. 22:05:29 oh, there it is! 22:06:10 OliverUv: where is the rest? 22:07:30 by the rest, do you want all the legacy code that gets loaded into common-lisp-user or the rest of my almavis package? 22:07:30 I can note that the rest of the almavis package does not contain references to those symbols, at all 22:07:41 OliverUv: i'm curious where you define the package. 22:07:56 ok, hold on 22:08:00 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:18 package.lisp http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6174666/almavis/package.lisp 22:09:24 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6174666/almavis/almavis.asd 22:09:31 and I have these source files also, though I don't think they matter 22:09:31 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6174666/almavis/almavis-ar.lisp 22:09:42 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6174666/almavis/almavis-grafik.lisp 22:09:45 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:10:14 -!- lambert [~lambert@85.69.145.12] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:11:26 pr_ [~pr@p4FE2C6A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:27 -!- pr_ [~pr@p4FE2C6A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:20 Joreji_ [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:20:54 any ideas? 22:20:55 what Lisp is that? 22:20:55 sbcl you say? 22:20:55 -!- puddingpimp [bpasrca@118-92-156-2.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:20:55 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 22:20:55 yep 22:20:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:20:56 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@m650f36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:05 -!- bougyman [bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:21:05 bougyman [bougyman@pdpc/supporter/gold/bougyman] has joined #lisp 22:21:15 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e6b3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:21:40 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:22:15 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-126.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:52 -!- lispm [~joswig@d221128.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:26 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 22:25:37 here is a debug message telling me about th econflict 22:25:38 debugger invoked on a SB-EXT:NAME-CONFLICT in thread #: 22:25:41 IMPORT COMMON-LISP-USER::DAGALMANACKA causes name-conflicts in 22:25:43 # between the following symbols: 22:25:46 COMMON-LISP-USER::DAGALMANACKA, ALMAVIS::DAGALMANACKA 22:25:59 OliverUv: i know the problem. 22:26:04 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:26:15 OliverUv: import has load-time effects, but compiling the file has compile-time effects. 22:26:31 5: (IMPORT COMMON-LISP-USER::DAGALMANACKA #) 22:26:38 from the backtrace of above debug message 22:26:46 OliverUv: put them in an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) if you want them to happen at compile time. 22:27:00 OliverUv: of course, it would be better to get your defpackage right 22:27:06 mm 22:27:32 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:41 and defining stuff in cl-user is also pretty weird 22:27:46 how would I go about doing that? Create a package and such for the legacy code? 22:28:18 OliverUv: that would be one way to do it. 22:28:18 well, the legacy code is educational code for people learning programming for the first time, it just has the bare basics and thus no package things 22:28:39 It helped me learn Swedish! 22:28:45 i could add the package info to it while I program it, and remove it once the time for intergation comes 22:28:53 heh 22:29:03 OliverUv: anyway, the problem is that the symbols are read before they imported. 22:29:12 OliverUv: because compile-file must read it 22:29:17 ah, ok 22:29:24 yes I understand that is a problem 22:29:32 hm 22:30:13 Can I fix my defpackage to handle this without wrapping the legacy code in a package? 22:30:31 I think so. 22:30:36 Hooray! 22:30:39 as long as you arrange to load it first. 22:30:49 Yes, I do that now. 22:31:15 Have some functions in sbclrc that load legacy and then compile etc 22:31:30 better to express that in an .asd 22:31:36 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: going home...] 22:34:23 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:35:14 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:02 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37:09 oh, I didn't know what could be done in a .asd, really, I just followed your quick'n'dirty guide 22:37:10 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:37:38 Can you point me to sources telling me how, or tell me yourself? 22:37:39 -!- mindCrime is now known as mindCrime_ 22:38:41 <_3b`> beach: s/let/let*/ in POP in cons-high i think 22:40:01 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-13827.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:40:32 <_3b`> beach: in (pop (car x)), reader-form needs to be able to see the bindings of vars 22:41:06 sykopomp : yes, purely functional is relative to syntax; you can easily translate to a related syntax, which is not purely functional. the point is that equational reasoning works for the former, but not the latter 22:43:25 (another way to look at it is that in purely functional languages, effects are represented explicitly, which means you can tell that a certain effect is not present, because of the interface being different (you have to call the function differently)) 22:43:32 <_3b`> beach: and REMF SETQs store-var without binding it, which seems a bit odd 22:44:35 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@xdsl-87-78-103-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:48:58 <_3b`> beach: and PUSHNEW seems to be missing some , and calls KEY in both branches of IF KEY-P 22:52:47 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:52:49 ferada` [~user@g230248110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:15 -!- ferada [~user@g230248110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:08 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:10 -!- ferada` [~user@g230248110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:24 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:54 medgno [~user@c-75-72-238-81.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:49 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:57:49 OliverUv: well, you'd make a system file for your legacy stuff, and then a system file that :depends-on the legacy system so they all get loaded on demand as needed. 22:58:15 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:59:36 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:59:41 bzzbzz 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