00:00:23 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:00:23 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:23 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:03:03 lispm [~lispm@g224127221.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:29 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:04:58 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224127221.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:48 jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 00:25:08 argh 00:25:12 llvm is NOT designed for use from lisp 00:25:22 it calls exit(1) when there's an error >.< 00:26:55 <_3b`> libs that do that are such fun :( 00:27:08 <_3b`> no option to specify your own error callback? 00:27:08 -!- dabd [~dabd@a81-84-114-181.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:27:46 _3b`: in theory I can tell it to just print a message instead of dying, but it dies anyway. 00:28:15 <_3b`> helpful of it :p 00:28:33 it's probably the fault of the llvm wrapper tbh 00:28:36 it's kind of shoddy >_> 00:30:24 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:39:23 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:45:45 ... Damn. SBCL's signal/interrupt handling documentation doesn't cover what I need to know. 00:46:33 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:32 Ok. The changes seem to be working. 00:51:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:51:38 Now to do it on all the other platforms, right? 00:52:03 _3b`: do you have your arglist implementation? 00:52:04 Maybe for x86, but that's about it. 00:52:34 Heh. Not bothered about PPC or any other platforms? 00:53:22 <_3b`> gonzojive: the autodoc modifications you mean? 00:53:57 _3b`: yes, i'm defining a bunch of proxy-funs for parenscript and maybe i could use what you have so far 00:54:00 Now way to test on ppc anymore, and all others are pretty much dead. 00:55:39 I'm almost prepared to argue that SBCL on anything other than PPC, x86 and x86-64 is pretty much dead. 00:55:39 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:56:04 And the only reason that SBCL on PPC -isn't- is that I acquired a G5 not so long ago. 00:56:23 Unfortunate, but that seems true. In a few years, ppc and sparc will be dead too. 00:57:04 I do wonder about ppc. 00:57:18 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:57:28 That it will be alive or that it will be dead? 00:57:41 <_3b`> gonzojive: yeah, i think those are on this machine... i'll see if i can find it and put it up somewhere in a bit 00:57:42 Isn't pretty much every architecture except IA-32 and derivative dead? 00:57:57 (In general, not in terms of SBCL support.) 00:58:02 It seems somewhat important to keep at least -some- "alternative" architectures alive, though, just for the maintenance effects. 00:58:05 ARM 00:58:22 ARM is still quite popular, PPC has more than a few embedded devices to its name, etc. 00:58:33 MIPS too. 00:58:37 There may even still be some MIPS devices out... Yeah. 00:58:38 Whether it'll be possible to keep the ppc lisp going. I think it will; the Darwin ppc port will probably wither eventually. 00:58:48 <_3b`> gonzojive: it isn't quite as functional as the plain arglist stuff though, since doing lookups on the browser looked more complicated for autodoc 00:59:02 Yeah, Darwin/PPC is probably dead at this point. 00:59:08 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:16 Can you get a ppc machine anymore? At least something that a hobbiest can afford? 00:59:20 I have a G5 PowerMac, and run Linux on it. 00:59:27 _3b`: whoa, you were doing lookups on the browser? 00:59:37 rtoym: Used PPC macs aren't hard to find. 00:59:53 <_3b`> gonzojive: it should on the code you have already, for non-autodoc stuff 01:00:02 Then there's the Wii... 01:00:12 Sure. I can still get SGI and HPUX machines too, but I'm not going to. 01:00:19 ... GameCube, if you want to go that route... 01:00:37 Wii uses ppc? Didn't know that. 01:00:45 ccl runs/ran on the ps3, but sony killed the other os option. 01:00:54 <_3b`> gonzojive: not that built in functions have arglists, or that it can fund anything for methods of some random local variable, but works if it can get to an actual js function given the context 01:00:54 broadcom makes a lot of MIPS32 devices 01:01:24 _3b`: I was just going to use a cache of info from parenscript defuns and defmacros for now 01:02:01 _3b`: cool 01:02:14 <_3b`> gonzojive: yeah, not sure whether i would bother for browser lookups for autodoc or not 01:02:30 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:02:41 The architecture that's the most interesting from an SBCL-maintenance standpoint, though, is Alpha. 01:03:03 Why is that? 01:03:09 any idea how impossible extending the debugger to reach into the browser will be? 01:03:26 hadronzoo [~user@64.134.25.41] has joined #lisp 01:03:58 It's got that 32-bit-wide-heap, 64-bit-wide-registers thing going on. 01:04:00 <_3b`> i hadn't looked at it yet, probably depends on where the error came from though 01:04:09 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:04:20 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 01:04:23 gonzojive: Don't look for reasons why something is impossible, look for ways to do it! 01:04:57 -!- hadronzoo [~user@64.134.25.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:11 <_3b`> errors directly from evaluating code sent to the browser should be OK, not as sure about stuff like errors in event handlers and such 01:05:35 PPC is interesting because it's the one target that supports both cheneygc and gencgc, and soon to be the one non-conservative target that supports threads. 01:05:45 hadronzoo [~user@64.134.25.41] has joined #lisp 01:05:54 (Just as soon as I manage to nail the remaining GC bugs... And whatever else goes wrong.) 01:06:35 <_3b`> then the question will be whether we can track the mapping from js<->ps well enough to map errors back to original source locations 01:07:56 <_3b`> presumably worst case, we can make an extension and do whatever it is that firebug does to catch errors 01:08:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:55 <_3b`> (at least assuming we can find someone who has any sort of clue how that works) 01:09:39 _3b`: it's not too bad to make a firebug extension. I think there's a 5-part tutorial out there on how to do a basic one. 01:09:42 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:09:51 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:10:05 <_3b`> hmm, hooking into firebug itself would probably simplify things, hadn't thought of that 01:10:37 _3b`: it looks like that original swank-arglists.lisp patch is the easiest way to get basic arglists working with the cache. what do you think of that approach? 01:11:05 <_3b`> not sure what you mean 01:12:30 _3b`: I patched the slime contrib swank-arglists.lisp. with this patch we can just bind a few specials during arglist calls: http://github.com/gonzojive/slime/commit/40a84e1e5ea07f5068de61863bb00c22e7ccf833 01:13:59 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:14:14 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:16:20 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.145.138] has quit [] 01:16:31 <_3b`> gonzojive_: i think http://github.com/3b/slime-proxy/blob/master/slime-proxy.el#L74 is the part that was handling basic arglists, possibly i forgot some step(s) required to make it actually take effect though 01:17:29 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B98D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:18:28 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:18:32 <_3b`> though i think all that adds is the ability to recognize (@ foo) as an operator which might have args to look up 01:18:36 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:08 nyef: You load all of the assem files early in genesis, and then again later? Are all the assem files needed? 01:20:40 <_3b`> from that point http://github.com/gonzojive/slime-proxy/blob/master/swank-proxy-ps.lisp#L20 should take over before normal swank sees the request anyway 01:21:18 <_3b`> (unless you are talking about autodoc arglists, which you may be now that i read the filename of your patch more closely :) 01:21:37 rtoym: The assem files are run through assemfile as well as the compiler, in order to have both the routines and the VOPs. Any assem file that isn't needed for a given platform contains only comments. 01:22:28 (Typically, comments to the effect that it's not needed on that platform.) 01:22:31 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:43 <_3b`> bah, and slime is checked out from CVS, so i have to figure out how that works to see what i changed :/ 01:23:06 Ah, I didn't know that, never having looked at how assem files worked. I guess the tramps don't need to be vops. 01:23:41 _3b`: ah yes, I do. i think that defvar in proxy-slime.el doesn't take effect because the arglist function is already defined for me 01:24:04 Indeed they don't. 01:24:46 Phoodus [foo@174-17-116-185.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:08 I think the worst reader conditional we've had in the assembly files is one that dispatches on both assembling, which is a feature, and win32, which is a target feature. 01:26:55 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.58] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 <_3b`> ouch, i was hacking on 3 month old slime too 01:28:34 _3b`: grand. 01:29:33 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:31:06 <_3b`> or maybe i wasn't working on that stuff on this machine after all 01:31:11 *_3b`* checks other machine 01:33:12 <_3b`> ah, that looks like it 01:33:25 <_3b`> still checked out from cvs though :( 01:36:02 <_3b`> gonzojive: and now that i think about it, i already pasted the changes for someone else to look at : http://paste.lisp.org/display/111874 01:36:44 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:37:20 <_3b`> probably similar to what you have 01:38:01 <_3b`> (or at least imilar idea) 01:38:19 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:43 <_3b`> oh yeah, i think i remember what it was that made me give up... emacs couldn't be convinced to parse (@ foo) right as an operator without rewriting a bing chunk of something 01:42:44 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:43:29 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:37 -!- jbd [~user@67-198-71-121.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:45:36 <_3b`> gonzojive: probably reasonable to go with your patch, and rename the stub hooks in slime-proxy from my version to match yours so it still works on unpatched slime 01:49:26 <_3b`> gonzojive: though hooks that allowed for eventually adding in non-symbol operators would be nice 01:49:41 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 01:51:04 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:51:08 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:14 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.120.35] has joined #lisp 01:53:14 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.120.35] has quit [Changing host] 01:53:14 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:55:48 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:56:38 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:57:43 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 02:01:20 Does anyone here have a working ltk file using the grid geometry manager he is willing to share so I can see how grid is supposed to be used? 02:04:53 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 02:05:03 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:05:12 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 02:06:47 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:07:00 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 02:08:52 aeouhtns [bd2f71a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.47.113.161] has joined #lisp 02:09:10 hello all 02:09:34 christoph_debian [christoph@sf-ogame.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:39 this is a CL channel, right? 02:09:59 <_3b`> mostly CL, yes 02:10:21 mostly? are there schemers here? 02:10:35 <_3b`> there is #scheme for scheme 02:11:08 yes, but which other dialects are here? 02:11:27 <_3b`> #lisp focuses on CL, but sometimes allows talking about dialects with no channel of their own 02:11:38 like arc? 02:12:08 <_3b`> well, except arc and newlisp :p 02:13:00 <_3b`> basically, assume it is a CL channel until you have been here a while :) 02:13:01 oh, thank you 02:13:51 well, I guess I'll stay here ("Scheme took defun out of Lisp") 02:14:30 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:41 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.150] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:17:54 lemoinem [~swoog@40-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:21 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.199.83] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:22:09 why does lisp haves that much parentheses? 02:22:48 It scares the hungry ghosts 02:22:53 *aeouhtns* goes pick more coffee 02:22:55 good 02:22:59 It keeps the riff-raff away. 02:23:08 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@40-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:23:12 Which gui toolkit for cl has the best documentation? 02:23:28 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:35 tk, maybe? 02:23:40 Garnet. :-) 02:23:56 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.83] has joined #lisp 02:24:26 best docs or bigger docs? ;-P 02:25:28 best means many working examples 02:25:54 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:03 dont know 02:26:21 I am not Into GUIs :-) 02:26:57 Garnet docs seemed pretty complete. But I haven't played with garnet in ages. CLIM is probably not too bad. 02:28:10 but, if you did not care for documentations or any help, you could go EFL 02:29:47 In 1995, active support for Garnet at CMU was dropped as key people moved on and development focus shifted. The toolkit itself, however, is quite feature complete and stable 02:30:06 that is what garnetlisp.sourceforge.net says 02:30:44 Nobody asked for a recent, actively supported gui. :-) Just one with the best docs. 02:31:15 lat: But McCLIM has quite a few examples included, some more complete than others. 02:31:22 yep 02:32:01 Actually, I would like to use ltk, but need an example file showing how to use grid. 02:32:07 I don't know the state of any other guis. 02:32:52 but Garnet is not supported anymore 02:33:31 and there is the risk of Garnet getting incompatible with eventual new Common Lisp standards 02:33:58 rtoym, is McClim the most actively supported gui? 02:34:17 The likelihood of a new CL standard is about as likely as Garnet being actively supported again. 02:34:31 true... 02:34:39 lat: I don't know. But you can find some McCLIMers here sometimes. 02:35:00 McCLIM seems to be the most active out there 02:35:08 at least is what google says 02:35:22 and mcclim-devel 02:35:24 lat: do you know cl-gtk2? 02:35:40 rtoym, can you make a data imput screen using McClim? I could not find any examples. 02:35:58 it is not a CL toolkit, but it is a nice binding 02:36:02 Data input screen? What's that? 02:37:01 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:37:02 davazp, do you use cl-gtk2? 02:37:16 <_3b`> lat: http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=ltk%3Agrid+lang%3Alisp&hl=en show what you are looking for? 02:37:30 I have not written any graphical application, but I will use cl-gtk2 when I do it :-) 02:37:57 *_3b`* suspects web browser is one of the more popular lisp UI libs :p 02:38:24 does wxwidgets support common lisp? 02:39:14 there is wxCL 02:40:50 nope 02:41:02 the page is not found 02:41:23 However I have not get to compile any ui lisp library successfully, but cl-gtk2 and ltk. 02:41:55 DanLentz [~danlentz@mobile-166-137-139-119.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:03 rtoym, basically just need text field and label widgets. 02:43:15 yep 02:43:18 _3 02:43:24 ltk haves good docs 02:43:26 right.. I have the source in the hard disk 02:43:45 lat: Probably, but I don't know for sure. 02:43:47 lat: if your gui is simple, I recommend you use ltk 02:44:44 it is simple and has a nice tutorial 02:45:12 anyone here uses stumpwm 02:45:30 aeouhtns: link for wxcl http://sourceforge.net/projects/wxcl/ 02:45:43 yes, i saw it 02:45:50 but the official website is down 02:45:53 _3b, thanks for the link. That is what I'm looking for, but (alas) it doesn't seem to work. 02:46:29 last commit 1446 days ago 02:46:45 that is veryold 02:46:53 aeouhtns, I use stump. It is great. I'm 3 or 4 times more productive with stump. 02:47:30 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.58] has joined #lisp 02:47:36 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:38 lets be a little offtopic: what distro you use,lat? 02:48:29 stump fails to build for me 02:49:06 davazp, yes, but the ltk tutorial does not show how to use grid. 02:49:21 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:50:04 lat: if you learn a few about tcl/tk, you could expand ltk easily 02:50:19 if grid is not supported, I don't know 02:50:47 otherwise, you could give a try, even if there are no examples 02:50:48 ltk = lisp tk? 02:51:06 aeouhtns, ubuntu. But I'm not a stumpwm expert. They are on the stumpwm channel. 02:51:19 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:51:28 i use archlinux 02:51:41 and write a beautiful tutorial about your experience! someone should writte the first :-) 02:53:00 and then pass the tutorial's link to everyone here :-) 02:55:47 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:12 davazp, I seldom ask questions until I have tried to use the code and played with it for several hours. In this case, I've also examined the tk docs, but they don't show how to use ltk. 03:02:00 oh, but I am sure someone here could help ltk questions 03:05:21 hankhero [~Adium@c-b21fe996-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 03:17:32 maybe at the tk channel? 03:19:38 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:36 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 03:22:24 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:29 a simple example of grid: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112562 03:27:03 for grid specific arguments, see tk documentation :-) 03:27:39 I have not worked with ltk, only for fun, but it is intuitive 03:28:43 _3b, I'm looking closer at that link, and it may be what I need after all. I'll let you know. Thanks. 03:29:07 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp/External_libraries/Ltk contains another grid example 03:32:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:33:09 davazp, many thanks! That helps also. 03:34:16 hey, how do i run external commands from inside lisp 03:34:17 ? 03:34:31 aeouhtns: that would depend on that lisp. 03:34:38 How do you do it from inside C? 03:34:51 depends on the lisp and probably on the OS, depending 03:34:58 Yes. 03:35:22 say sbcl/clisp on unix-based 03:35:53 CL as a language doesn't have anything like the Python module that handles that... 03:35:56 absalom: you may use asdf:run-shell-command 03:36:02 asdf is often available. 03:36:15 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:36:18 Yes, but asdf is not mentioned anywhere in the spec, iirc 03:36:46 CL as a language has exactly things like Python modules to handle that. There are a lot of libraries that provide such features in a portable way. 03:37:03 absalom: we're over it, aeouhtns mentionned sbcl and clisp! 03:37:06 yep, asdf is available 03:37:16 thank you 03:37:45 The di9fference is that Python always comes with that stuff. It lacks a spec entirely, of course, but... 03:37:59 absalom: I'd bet cl-python doesn't. 03:38:00 Always may be a bit of an overstatement, but... 03:38:19 If you get the standard Python youy get the stuff. 03:38:35 absalom: moreover, even with normal python, it comes as long as you can install the needed stuff without errors, which doesn't occur more often than with lisp! 03:38:44 Right, agreed. 03:38:56 yay, now i can run rm -rf / within lisp! 03:39:29 aeouhtns: you could do it without an external program: #-(and) (delete-file "/**/*.*") 03:39:54 but that is not as fun 03:40:19 what is better sbcl or clisp 03:40:33 *aeouhtns* prefers clisp 03:40:46 is there any particular reason to prefer one over the other? 03:40:55 *aeouhtns* loves automatching parentheses 03:41:10 isn't that done by the editor 03:41:22 i mean on the repl 03:41:24 or do you mean something else 03:41:25 hmm 03:41:29 ok , i don't know 03:41:39 i only know a little bit of lisp 03:41:46 same for me 03:41:50 i took an AI class years ago and they made us code in lisp 03:41:51 it was fun 03:41:57 Eno_: I summary the situation as, sbcl has better performance and library compatiblity, while clisp has 03:42:01 lisp _is_ fun 03:42:02 a smaller footprint 03:42:11 ah 03:42:40 you choose :-) 03:42:48 AND clisp has automatching parentheses on the REPL by default :-) 03:43:18 But, anyone not using Emacs is a fool!!1111 ;) 03:43:20 aeouhtns: you should use slime, I think 03:43:28 what does automatching paranthesis on the rpl mean? 03:43:30 REPL 03:43:49 REPL is the interactive lisp 03:44:04 oh right 03:44:11 ok, now i understand 03:44:24 much easier to program 03:44:30 unless you use emacs 03:44:35 Eno_: when you use clisp in a terminal (not in emacs), when you type a closing parenthesis, it blinks the corresponding opening parenthesis. This is useful. 03:44:41 yes 03:44:43 yeah, i thought all 'real lisp coders' used inferior lisp in emacs ;p 03:44:49 Eno_: however, we most often use CL from emacs, where emacs does it itself. 03:45:01 okay 03:45:07 but as I cannot live with emacs... 03:45:15 Eno_: they often use slime, which itself uses inferior-lisp under. 03:45:31 I meet a good man (I felt sorry for him :-)) which program in lisp in gedit. oh god 03:45:50 i use vim for coding 03:46:00 we all feel sorry for him 03:46:04 don't know how to use emacs 03:46:07 *aeouhtns* uses vim 03:46:23 -!- rme [rme@clozure-8BB102E1.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:46:23 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-123-72.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:46:33 *aeouhtns* is too lazy for emacs 03:46:43 *aeouhtns* wants to code with ed 03:46:51 *davazp* is too lazy for no emacs 03:46:57 GNU Ed rocks! 03:47:06 I am happy with paredit 03:48:18 macros does lisp syntax worth, paredit does lisp syntax to be perfect :-) 03:48:24 aeouhtns: really, you could take half an hour to run the emacs tutorial: launch emacs, type control-h t and follow the instructions. 03:48:29 *Phoodus* uses MS Word to code lisp 03:48:34 lol 03:48:52 Phoodus: and you do the font-locking yourself with MS-Word styles? 03:49:15 Wrote it in VBscript myself! ;) 03:49:16 it is easier to edit any other syntax :-) 03:49:31 vimers should write a paredit for them 03:49:34 pjb: i did it once, but i sleeped in the middle 03:50:11 and :wq is sooo easy to type on dvorak keyboards... 03:50:27 mokogobo [~mokogobo@h0.151.16.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:56 -!- mokogobo [~mokogobo@h0.151.16.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:06 pjb: but i will try again 03:51:09 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 03:51:20 emacs is a whole new way of life 03:51:36 not sure if I am ready for it... ;P 03:51:49 I've got some issues with emacs and slime, but it's still the best option out there 03:52:37 As they say, "Emacs is a great operating system, but its editor sucks!" :) 03:52:42 *aeouhtns* loves M-x butterfly 03:53:09 As they say, "Scheme took defun out of Lisp" 03:53:26 *aeouhtns* agrees with Phoodus 03:54:13 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has left #lisp 03:54:43 fFFFFFFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffffff 03:54:46 anyone here got llvm experience? 03:54:58 no, but I wish I did :-/ 03:55:05 ME! 03:55:22 only when I tried to compile etoile 03:55:43 took HOURS to build a special version to build etoile 03:55:58 but llvm rocks 03:57:04 aeouhtns: used the IR builder? 03:57:30 -!- aeouhtns [bd2f71a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.47.113.161] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:58:10 aeouhtns [bd2f71a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.47.113.161] has joined #lisp 03:58:22 what is that? 03:58:28 nvm, solved it 03:58:31 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 03:58:36 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:58:50 -!- hadronzoo [~user@64.134.25.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:59:13 -!- chairos [~jon@inklesspen.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:59:39 has anyone read Practical Common Lisp? 03:59:47 hadronzoo [~user@nmd.sbx06329.dallatx.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:02 many people have 04:00:06 some even wrote it 04:00:51 it is a good book 04:01:17 *aeouhtns* loves #lisp 04:02:35 why some people code lisp allcaps? 04:02:46 maybe i should look at emacs as though i'm learning a new OS instead of a new editor 04:02:52 maybe that way i'll be more presistant 04:03:09 aeouhtns: the default reader case in Lisp is typically uppercase 04:03:27 aeouhtns: some people like it.. it's not typical in code written the last several years though 04:03:29 so in that case, the code merely reflects how the lisp environment would print it 04:03:45 -!- marvel_ [~marvel@unaffiliated/marvel] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:03:46 Lisp is older than lower case. :) 04:03:51 heh 04:03:52 i would need to change my keyboard layout to move alt/ctrl and i can't be arsed 04:04:08 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:15 coding in all caps seems that the code has tons of dust on it 04:04:19 ugh. 04:04:37 GOTO 10 04:04:42 lol 04:04:50 old times 04:05:00 Commodore 64 04:05:09 i heard there was a time that code was printed verbatim and instuction books for games/software and magazines 04:05:20 before my time with computers, though 04:05:38 is there common lisp for C64? 04:05:51 why not, C64 is turing-complete 04:06:00 yes there exists one, but maybe noobody has made it 04:06:03 so there * 04:06:06 *aeouhtns* says to himself (before my time too, born in 97) 04:06:32 haha 04:06:34 hadronzo` [~user@64.134.145.74] has joined #lisp 04:06:36 i was born in 84 04:06:43 but i didn't get into computers till '99 04:06:53 meder [~meder@c-69-143-116-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:10 these days i found a zip drive 04:07:11 lol 04:07:15 you are pretty young! 04:07:17 There are lisps for C64, but not common lisp 04:07:23 the pre-usb model 04:07:43 Phoodus: Scheme, maybe? 04:07:43 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:07:48 I don't think you could fit all the CL symbols into C64 RAM :) 04:07:52 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:07:59 hahaha 04:08:13 you need to get the C64 lisp extension man 04:08:19 -!- hadronzoo [~user@nmd.sbx06329.dallatx.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:08:34 that is vaporware 04:08:41 it seemed like i was touching an ancient stone from iomega 04:08:48 lol 04:09:05 lisp extension = additional hardware, i mean 04:09:26 i'm bringing you guys OT, i'll go watch a movie 04:09:27 bye 04:09:33 i got it 04:09:46 which movie? 04:10:01 Brooklyn's Finest 04:10:11 never heard of 04:10:19 (me either) 04:10:35 *aeouhtns* laughs to death 04:11:54 In my opinion, going offtopic is better than going completely idle, but then I never contribute anything useful to the channel, so what do I know. :) 04:12:25 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:12:54 oh, I guess I could brag about my 16MB of RAM in my C64 before that tangent goes away 04:12:57 <_3b`> no, idle is better than off topic for #lisp 04:13:07 <_3b`> if you prefer off-topic, that is what #lispcafe is for 04:13:30 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:13:32 <_3b`> (not off-topic specifically, but a place where people won't complain about it as much) 04:13:45 I thought #lispcafe was for if you preferred idle *ducks* 04:15:38 -!- hadronzo` [~user@64.134.145.74] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:18:14 there is #lispcafe 04:18:19 ? 04:18:21 great! 04:18:44 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:26 i think off-topic is better than idle 04:19:41 idle makes people afraid of asking real questions 04:20:04 <_3b`> off-topic makes people leave though 04:20:29 <_3b`> and makes it harder to see real questions 04:20:36 depends of the level of offtopic 04:20:39 learn about the concept of SNR 04:20:45 Good morning everyone! 04:20:54 good morning! 04:21:08 Hi beach. 04:21:17 <_3b`> either way, unless you have a time machine, it is too late to change the policy for #lisp :) 04:21:47 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:53 -!- emma is now known as emm 04:22:22 wow, this movie is way too serious 04:22:28 can't watch it 04:22:41 -!- emm is now known as emma 04:22:51 so hello back Eno_ 04:23:04 hi 04:23:05 hey beach 04:26:15 has anyone here tried RacketL 04:26:25 *Racket? 04:26:38 (shitty dvorak keyboard) 04:27:23 davazp and _3b`, many thanks! The links to examples you gave were all I needed to see how to use grid. 04:27:44 <_3b`> google code search is good for that sort of thing :) 04:27:55 remember, write a tutorial and send to all us :) 04:28:04 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:28:12 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-94-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:51 _3b, thanks. I didn't know about google code search. It will be helpful indeed. 04:31:12 lat is right. _3b` showed us 1.There is a special engine for source code 2.It works indeed! 04:32:51 better RT @lat _3b, thanks. I didn't know about google code search. It will be helpful indeed. 04:33:20 that is what happens too much twitter 04:36:26 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@mobile-166-137-139-119.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:57 Does anyone know why bauhh.dyndns.org is down? 04:42:11 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:42:34 bye, gonna test stumpwm 04:46:43 aeouhtns_ [bd2f71a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.47.113.161] has joined #lisp 04:46:50 lol 04:47:12 -!- aeouhtns [bd2f71a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.47.113.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47:19 hahaha 04:47:20 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:16 -!- aeouhtns_ [bd2f71a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.47.113.161] has quit [Client Quit] 04:49:06 code was indeed printed in magazines, and then... 04:49:30 after typing the whole thing in you would inevitably screw up in saving the listing to the external tape drive... 04:49:59 It is very easy to screw that up. 04:52:42 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 05:00:25 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:01:22 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:01:23 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-236.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:02:00 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:40 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 05:08:44 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:11:14 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-199.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:37 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:42 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 05:34:56 marvel_ [~marvel@unaffiliated/marvel] has joined #lisp 05:44:47 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:45:29 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Food. Windows. Games. etc] 05:46:47 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:52 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:55:08 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-22-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:56:48 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:58:09 ephcon [~ephcon@cpe-98-14-252-149.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:01:57 timor [~timor@port-92-195-82-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:05:08 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:49 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:12:07 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:41 How do I compare SAPs? 06:19:44 for equality 06:19:47 in SBCL 06:20:28 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:56 lemoinem [~swoog@162-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:02 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:06 hi 06:21:23 Ralith: sb-sys:sap= 06:21:51 is it just me or is MAKE-LIST strictly a performance hack? what uses does it have aside from speed? 06:22:37 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-208-226.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:23:04 leo2007: argh. I don't suppose any of the standard equality tests are supersets of that? 06:23:22 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:30 Ralith: they failed. 06:23:37 fusss: it's not for performance. 06:23:42 leo2007: huh? 06:24:40 I have a function that used to work under ccl but failed in sbcl and was told to use sap=. 06:24:52 fff 06:24:54 *_3b`* has wanted to use standard EQ* on SAPs before, don't think i ever got around to filing a bug/feature request though :/ 06:24:56 I'm trying to use a hashtable here 06:26:00 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:26:08 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:26:18 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 06:27:02 any suggestions short of an alist? 06:27:08 Ralith: have you seen the hash-table extensions with custom EQs? 06:27:56 genhash 06:28:07 http://www.cliki.net/genhash 06:28:24 don't particularly want to pull in a dep for this :/ 06:29:36 *fusss* once required alexandria because of FLATTEN 06:29:54 once you use rich libraries you code becomes richer, higher level, and more succinct 06:30:00 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c-b21fe996-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:37 i have ~8 indispensables dumped into all my work cores 06:31:24 -!- marvel_ [~marvel@unaffiliated/marvel] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:36:12 fusss: what are they? 06:39:22 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:39:48 Bajio8 [~bajio@212.98.134.19] has joined #lisp 06:39:50 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest8132 06:41:20 leo2007: alexandria, babel, trivial-http, cl-ppcre, puri, cl-base64, cffi, split-sequence, local-time, closer-mop and cl-store 06:41:54 also throw in boreaux-threads and usocket 06:42:20 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:43 all bots are down. 06:43:30 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has left #lisp 06:44:19 -!- Guest8132 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 06:44:43 fusss: thanks. 06:44:52 np 06:44:54 Hii all 06:45:26 Hey Bajio8 06:45:46 Bajio8: is that short for Baggio? 06:46:28 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:46:30 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:46:30 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 06:46:48 No my name is Bajio8 06:46:56 lol 06:47:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:48:57 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Client Quit] 06:49:27 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:29 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:49:29 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 06:49:31 -!- ionine_ is now known as blinzy` 06:49:37 -!- jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 06:49:42 -!- blinzy` is now known as methionine_ 06:49:43 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:50:17 -!- methionine_ is now known as methionine 06:50:27 -!- methionine is now known as methionine_ 06:50:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:51:30 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:22 Ogedei [~user@e178202210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:00:17 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178202210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:05:25 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:06:22 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:08:03 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-82-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:02 -!- Bajio8 [~bajio@212.98.134.19] has left #lisp 07:11:24 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-134-65.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:52 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.120.35] has joined #lisp 07:11:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.120.35] has quit [Changing host] 07:11:52 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:17:32 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:20:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:21:01 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:32 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:34 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:21:35 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 07:22:51 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]] 07:23:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-169.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:24:03 dr_maligno [~dr_malign@88.18.231.176] has joined #lisp 07:28:48 jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 07:36:16 somehtingelse [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 07:36:25 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - 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Doesn't seem to work well for me 09:16:36 <_3b`> nope, i don't even use the single repl all that much :p 09:17:29 Komi [Komi@62.32.130.162] has joined #lisp 09:17:29 _3b`: it basically tries to use a single connection for multiple repls, which would be useful for the proxy situation 09:18:14 <_3b`> does anything in the spec require (tree-equal '("a" ("b" ("c"))) '("a" ("b" ("c")))) to be false? 09:18:36 <_3b`> gonzojive: yeah, i think that is where i got the idea for the channel stuff (or at least examples of how to use it) 09:19:05 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 09:19:59 the proxy repl is somewhat annoying now because things like (in-package) in the lisp repl affect the proxy repl. especially 09:20:24 C-c C-c is satisfying though 09:22:45 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 09:22:49 _3b`: why do you ask about tree-equal? If you use EQL as a test those should not be tree-equal, but with EQUAL they should be I think 09:23:41 <_3b`> what says they should not be with EQL though? 09:25:56 *_3b`* is trying to figure out if that is an invalid (or at least unportable) assumption in sacla tests, or something broken in my code 09:26:22 <_3b`> well, nonconformant rather than broken, since i probably won't fix it any time soon :p 09:26:26 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:26:29 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:26:54 _3b`: i'm looking around in chapter three of the spec for how literal strings and lists are supposed to be evaluated 09:27:18 <_3b`> EQ page says (eq "Foo" "Foo") 09:27:26 <_3b`> could be true or false 09:27:38 Ogedei [~user@e178214065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:59 then the question is about quoted lists 09:28:23 I think '("x") is supposed to cons up a new list 09:28:42 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:28:48 <_3b`> well, tree-equal should walk the lists, so list part shouldn't mater 09:28:50 eek, nevermind, maybe list EQLity is not important 09:28:56 <_3b`> (i think quoted lists can be combined too though) 09:29:23 <_3b`> in compiled code at least 09:30:12 eeek, that would be a nightmare of a bug 09:30:49 <_3b`> which? 09:31:41 is somebody here using usocket ? clients close their connection to the server, and END-OF-FILE is never signaled 09:31:45 with SBCL 09:32:32 if '("x") is not given distinct memory that is assumed by the programmer to be distinct 09:32:53 <_3b`> well, you aren't allowed to modify it 09:32:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:33:36 <_3b`> so only way to tell would be to see if it is EQ to something else 09:34:53 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:34:56 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89.180.135.76] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to 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connection] 13:45:11 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:59 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 G'morning all. 13:47:32 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 13:48:46 Ogedei [~user@e178222060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:51 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178222060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:40 -!- meder [~meder@c-69-143-116-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:56:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 13:56:49 -!- navigator [~navigator@p5489349A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:38 nyef: Aloha. Tried out your closure-tramp-as-real-lisp-function idea. Seems to work just fine. 13:58:54 navigator [~navigator@p5489349A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:25 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:59:29 Oh, cool. 13:59:41 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:59:44 nyef: Did notice one thing though. According to lisp.map, there are now 2 copies of closure-tramp, and all of the other functions in assembly routines. I think loading the assem files twice is the problem. Removing the assem files from the list seems to work. 13:59:46 Still an assembly trampoline, though, right? 14:00:02 Mmm... Makes sense. 14:00:52 Yes, still a Lisp assembly routine. The self-pointer in the function header is messed up, but that shouldn't matter. 14:00:53 The assembly files have to be loaded once as compiled by assemfile, and once as compiled by the compiler, AFAIK, but CMUCL might be doing something subtle instead? 14:01:15 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:40 Mmm... I'd worry if the self-pointer was messed up, but it's also fairly easy to fix. 14:02:08 (Well, provided that you can dump a word-sized fixup to an absolute address.) 14:03:09 Oh, maybe I messed that up. I should skip the foo.assem files, but still load the foo.sparcf files. 14:04:15 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.3.202] has joined #lisp 14:05:41 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:07:10 I made the self pointer 0. I didn't know how to get a correct value into that slot. 14:07:10 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:08:04 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:09:30 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 14:09:45 Simple-fun-self of a simple-fun is a tagged pointer to the object itself. 14:10:26 Yes. 14:10:38 So... dump a fixup to closure-tramp there? 14:10:55 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-134-65.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:10:59 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:08 How do I dump a fixup? 14:11:15 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:11:40 Actually, this should only matter if someone gets a hold of the closure-tramp object directly and tries to funcall it. 14:11:48 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.104.82.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:17 That shouldn't be happening. If you do that on purpose, you deserve to lose. 14:12:24 Fair enough 14:12:50 Dumping a fixup is a bit backend-dependent, and tied into the assembler / fasdumper machinery. 14:13:00 And thence to the fasload machinery. 14:14:47 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.15.192.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:14:54 meder [~meder@c-69-143-116-194.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:24 I think I'll look into that when I try to do this for x86 on a much faster machine. 14:18:38 Fair enough. 14:18:56 Should be easier on x86, as there's that :ABSOLUTE fixup. 14:19:08 (I forget if it's a fixup type or a fixup kind or something else.) 14:21:21 plediii_ [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 14:23:47 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:23:47 -!- plediii_ is now known as plediii 14:36:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:40:58 blandest [~user@92.80.140.16] has joined #lisp 14:41:08 carbocalm [~user@206-248-156-163.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:28 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 14:43:05 subopt [~eric@72.183.122.243] has joined #lisp 14:43:12 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:43:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:48:57 -!- AqD|Home [~AqD|Home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: AqD|Home] 14:52:21 -!- subopt [~eric@72.183.122.243] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:55:00 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:18 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:25 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:04 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 15:01:31 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:06:45 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:14:57 ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has joined #lisp 15:19:17 -!- blandest [~user@92.80.140.16] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:24 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:20:12 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 15:20:49 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:21:01 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:13 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 Oh, neat. The MIPS backend has some nice GC race conditions on call-in/call-out. 15:23:12 my contribution to todays dumb question(s): what's your favorite bit-set-p? I'm doing (> (logand trybit target) 0) 15:23:38 clhs logbitp 15:23:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logbtp.htm 15:25:11 Admittedly, LOGBITP requires an index, not a mask. 15:26:03 me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-233-184.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:16 nyef: thanks!, great, yeah in my case doing mask or bitpos is just an convention. 15:27:18 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:13 nyef: isn't mips cheney, ie single-thread? 15:31:22 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:32:12 Doesn't stop an asynchronous interrupt, just makes them far less frequent. 15:32:27 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:45 Ah, ok, so that's how cmucl loads the assem and sparc files. Genesis loads the assem files, but not the sparcf ones. The sparcf ones are loaded by loadbackend. 15:33:10 So, I can remove the assem files after loading the first time. 15:33:35 rtoym: Nice going. Is there much left to do? 15:34:24 Don't think so. Except for the self pointer slot, which I'm going to ignore for now. 15:34:44 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:44 If you were to have periodic access to a ppc system, would it be helpful to you? 15:35:56 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 maden [~maden@modemcable238.203-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:36:56 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-34-125.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:37:25 A ppc system on Darwin? Yes, that would be nice. I do kind of want to keep ppc going. x86 is not so interesting to me. 15:38:11 I don't have darwin, but I do have linux. 15:38:13 (From a hacking point of view, even though I end up doing most of my cmucl stuff on an intel mac.) 15:38:43 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.97.67.191] has joined #lisp 15:38:52 I don't think anyone has ever asked for cmucl/ppc on linux. 15:39:08 Heh. 15:39:26 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:40:07 So in that respect, it's less interesting. I'd have to put in all the C code stuff and that's a ton of work for not much reason. 15:40:38 Fair enough. I'm not entirely sure how to set up some way for you to access my machine anyway. 15:40:47 Maybe when I win that huge lottery, I can fill up my house with interesting computers to play with. 15:41:02 *rtoym* needs to buy that lottery ticket first, though. 15:41:42 xan_ [~xan@109.144.212.89] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 One thing that annoys me is that I -have- a MIPS system, but it runs linux 2.4 only, and failed to run SBCL at all the one time I tried it. 15:44:11 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:47:04 -!- Guest65853 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:47:46 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.130.162] has quit [] 15:48:04 Good evening! 15:48:43 Hello beach. 15:49:08 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:49:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:52:26 Hi beach! I wanted to contribute my reader to sicl, but I see you already have one. 15:53:39 pjb: We could merge them I guess. Mine is missing a lot of stuff, like most of the standard reader macros. 15:54:35 pjb: I would like to implement the floating-point reader algorithm that is guaranteed to generate a floating-point number as close as possible to the decimal value read. 15:54:36 While mine has the #1=(#1#) bug, I fail to understand the problem with standard-objects. There's no reader for them. Do you mean when we have user reader macros? 15:54:59 Yes, I already downloaded the paper, but not to time implement it. 15:55:10 I thought the problem was with structs, not standard-objects? 15:56:19 Well, with structs, indeed, we would need to know how to access the slots. Or else, we'd have to delay the construction of the structure. But since it can be done by user reader macros, perhaps in the general we do need to access the slots. 15:56:36 pjb: I am just saying my reader is missing most standard reader macros such as #n( etc. 15:57:26 beach: otherwise, there's the legal problem of public domain. This will occur only 70 years after your death. Perhaps people would want to use sicl before? 15:57:31 nyef: For standard objects you need the MOP. 15:58:03 What reader syntax is involved, though? 15:58:24 Or does #S work for classes as well as structs? 15:58:37 pjb: Right. I think some countries have problems with public domain. As I recall, there is a license that obtains the same thing. 15:58:40 ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 beach: perhaps we would need to talk to our deputies, and have IP law amended for this kind of relinguishment of rights. 15:58:54 beach: but not in France. 15:59:07 My deputies would be in Sweden. 15:59:17 beach: well, since you're working in France... 15:59:27 Aren't you residing France? 15:59:30 *in 15:59:42 pjb: Yes, but I don't vote so no deputy will listen to me. 15:59:50 :-) 16:00:41 -!- somnium [~user@adsl-65-179-75.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:43 nyef: Any reader syntax where an object that is about to be read is labeled with #n= is a problem. 16:00:58 Ah, right. 16:01:35 Whaa? The value of *pseudo-atomic-bits* isn't constrained to be a valid boxed object? 16:01:48 Well, (#1=x #1#) is ok since the reference is backward. #1=(#1#) has a forward reference. 16:02:48 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02:49 nyef: And this includes user-defined syntax such as using #[ to read standard objects. 16:03:10 ... Joy. 16:03:17 pjb: In the first case, the object that is labeled is not being constructed while the label is active. 16:03:30 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:43 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:17 interferon [~interfero@pool-96-224-161-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:53 Yes. 16:06:00 Couldn't you argue that the object labeled by #n= is not well defined in such cases? 16:06:32 -!- interferon [~interfero@pool-96-224-161-178.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:55 2.4.8.16 seems to leave a certain amount of wiggle room for precisely that language. 16:06:57 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.104.82.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:02 About PD, the problem is that even if some country defines the right properties for PD software, that doesn't allow people in another country with another definition to use it. In France, people would still have to wait 70 years after your death. Before, they wouldn't know what to do with it, what rights they'd have. So at very least, there should be specified another license. 16:08:41 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.112.122.82.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:36 benny` [~user@i577A7870.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:10:52 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 16:11:52 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:18 -!- benny [~user@i577A2F23.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:40 zophy-ng [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:16 pjb: is that really public domain ? i thought this was basic copyright protection, which falls into public domain after 70 years 16:15:34 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable238.203-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:41 explicitly putting it into PD is different i guess. 16:16:06 billitch: Some jurisdictions do not -allow- for someone explicitly placing a work into the public domain. 16:17:10 hm some jurisdiction don't allow anyone to do anything unless specified otherwise 16:17:39 -!- segv [~mb@p4FC1A0A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: segv] 16:17:40 but copyright laws are pretty unified in non-in-war-with-us countries, no ? 16:17:59 billitch: right, so you can say you put something in the public domain, and you can cover the 'rest' of the jurisdictions by simply using something like a liberal MIT or BSD. 16:18:55 pwang [~user@60.195.252.108] has joined #lisp 16:19:39 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 16:21:00 but how is it important ? my personal view is that keeping my name on the copyright allow me to enforce open source, i don't see any benefit to letting it into PD 16:21:32 billitch: some people don't have anything to enforce. 16:22:21 billitch: some of us don't care to force things to be open source. If you're willing to MIT/BSD something, PD isn't that big a jump, aside from enforced attribution. 16:23:41 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:07 i guess i'm too binary on this, either i want want to distribute or i don't, but in any case i try to do it properly 16:27:39 If i want to distribute something i like to keep the right to distribute it again later, so i ask people to keep my name somewhere on it. they're still free to modify it or shove it elsewhere.. 16:28:25 is there advantage to let into PD rather than licensing MIT or BSD style ? 16:28:33 less hassle :) 16:29:01 billitch: My understanding is that you don't absorb any copyrights to derivatives, or any new code that happens to be associated with the code you've MITd. 16:29:40 so you don't lose any rights to distribute something, because you don't automatically _gain_ any rights to distribute new code based on your original. 16:32:10 billitch: even MIT/BSD require some bookkeeping when it comes to others using your code. The other part is that, when collaborating with a group of people on a single project, you either have to keep careful track of which lines of code belong to whom, and attribute copyright for those lines to them. 16:32:20 ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has joined #lisp 16:32:24 or, alternatively, force any contributors to assign copyright to you for their contributions. 16:33:06 neither alternative is particularly nice. Asking contributors to place their code in the public domain simplifies the process of collaboration. 16:33:19 my 2 cents' worth, at least. 16:33:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:35:07 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 16:35:13 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:16 i think the problem is elsewhere, because if you have to PD your entire project it became a virus and cannot collaborate so much anymore, at least not with people not letting their work into PD 16:35:43 it's not a virus. Only the public domain code remains in the public domain. 16:36:12 if your collaborators do not wish to put their code in the public domain, then the 'official' project doesn't have to accept their code. 16:36:28 yes but to avoid hassle you have more hassle to convince a whole open source crowd to abandon their rights 16:36:47 I haven't found it to be that hard at all. 16:37:08 Actually, I faced more resistance when the topic of copyright assignment came up. 16:37:28 and keeping track of individual copyright is pretty impractical as a project grows, and lines of code evolve. 16:38:09 how do you implement "letting into PD" ? 16:38:31 "I assign all of this code to the public domain." 16:38:33 done. 16:38:53 from what I've read, you just need a clear statement somewhere that you've revoked your rights. 16:39:55 ok 16:40:13 IANAL, though! 16:41:16 this is multiplicative and absorbant, my view of MIT and such is that it's more additive : each modifier of a line adds its copyright to it, but leaves the license untouched so there is no conflict 16:41:33 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:41:33 -!- pwang [~user@60.195.252.108] has left #lisp 16:42:41 billitch: that gets complicated.... 16:42:41 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:56 it does not change anything to the license terms 16:43:00 sykopomp: not all jurisdictions recognize the public domain 16:43:03 I just don't see a reason to make something more complicated than it has to be. For some projects, I don't care enough to enforce my 'rights'. 16:43:12 also, you don't need to sign away your copyrights 16:43:13 ehu: yeah, we talked about this earlier. 16:43:17 pwang [~user@60.195.252.108] has joined #lisp 16:43:17 in some areas you can't 16:43:23 you could just add your name at the top of a file and consider deletion of your code a modification of your jointly copyrighted file, where you retain copyright even when no "lines" you wrote are still present. 16:43:26 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:31 however, you can make it free for distribution and modification 16:43:41 (like ASF licence) 16:43:45 ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has joined #lisp 16:43:56 why not push down granularity of copyright to character ? 16:44:10 billitch: too much of a hassle. 16:44:45 just put your name at the top of the file and let anyone do the same if they care to do so =) 16:44:45 lawyers tell me you can't copyright single lines or characters; possibly not even functions. 16:45:01 there's no way to enforce copyright on code opening a socket stream. 16:45:15 there are simply only 1 or 2 ways to do that. 16:47:23 Cute. src/compiler/alpha/macros, in the commentary for WITH-FIXED-ALLOCATION, mentions that Flag-Tn must be wired to NL3-OFFSET... But there is no flag-tn parameter. 16:47:31 billitch: what is really the purpose of such copyright retention? 16:48:26 sykopomp: really just having my name and email there 16:49:01 and letting people know that they can do whatever with it as long as they keep it there 16:49:05 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:49:30 billitch: I don't care much for that, although git takes care of that for the most part. 16:49:39 -!- pwang [~user@60.195.252.108] has left #lisp 16:50:09 I mean, to clarify -- I don't care much for that in some situations. I still use GPL/AGPL sometimes. 16:50:16 and most of my current code is MIT-licensed. 16:50:19 of course that's a very selfish interest, this is a way to get paid for this code 16:50:33 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-208-159.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:50 like a personal ad =) 16:51:07 sometimes, I don't care much about that. 16:52:03 and I find that dealing with the implications of who has copyright over what, ensuring proper attribution, etc etc, ends up being more of a hassle than it's worth. 16:53:02 if you want to be an ass you can always skip ensuring attribution until the writer lands you an email 16:53:15 Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:53:23 it's nice to know some projects use it, i like these minimalistic interfaces to the law-API. i would never do like DJB but the 0-byte license file of qmail used to impress me with its perfect conciseness and expressivity 16:54:02 meaning : he distributes copies. end of topic 16:54:57 heh, touch LICENSE and that's that 16:55:26 hm technically there are stil 4kb for the inode 16:56:03 4kb for the -inode-? What on earth filesystem...? 16:56:18 put your code into the library of congress 16:57:03 you can do this easily now, just write a script that will post your entire codebase to twitter 16:57:05 electronic attribution can be easily faked 16:57:07 and that will go into the LoC 16:57:16 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:33 nyef: my ext3 filesystems have 4096 bytes disk usage for each empty directory 16:58:07 though an empty file is not an empty directory.. 16:58:58 stassats: lol 16:59:19 we should backup the library of congress just in case also 16:59:19 The problem AFAIK, is that the legislations (mostly those of countries not at war against the USA) agree on _restricting_ rights. Here we want to unrestrict rights! And we need to have some guarantee, some recognition from the jurisdictions. And ideally we would want to have it in one way, internationnaly, for the our projects developed on Internet. We need some kind of extra-territoriality for ideas and code. 17:01:21 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-151.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:01:47 but giving rights is a restriction to not allow anyone to remove them 17:02:15 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 billitch: by engraving on metal plates and sending to the Moon? 17:02:27 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:53 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:21 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-120-72.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:53 stassats: of course, there is tremendous work ahead for humanity, our freedom is at stakes ! 17:05:28 -!- OliverUv [~oliver@c-f685e555.024-50-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06:15 Bwah? There's a "taddcctv" instruction for sparc? 17:07:33 maybe we should have copyright servers holding hashes for files or loc mapping copyright ownership and license terms 17:08:23 with some semantic web maybe we could even browse all that code in a sensible way ? 17:09:04 maybe we should breed a new non-greedy human species? oh well, that's too much off-topic, closing up 17:09:27 yeah serious trolling and bashing ahead 17:10:15 having some greed for non greedyness is quite taoic though 17:10:21 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-3009.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:11:26 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:11:41 *sykopomp* wanted to suggest some kind of rights management, for digital stuff, but I guess it's too late. 17:17:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@109.144.212.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17:15 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:05 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:44 pwang [~user@125.39.108.5] has joined #lisp 17:22:00 -!- pwang [~user@125.39.108.5] has left #lisp 17:26:38 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:15 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 17:34:52 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:53 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-161-100.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:35:06 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-233-184.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:37 pjb: exterritoriality tries might be dangerous... 17:43:29 ... Is there some rule on PPC that says that the result of an AND instruction doesn't appear for reading at the result register until -after- the following instruction? 17:46:12 sellout [~greg@81.253.70.232] has joined #lisp 17:47:05 Xach: I will indeed be in Europe for the Boston Lisp Meeting. Are you making it down to Boston? 17:49:00 -!- navigator [~navigator@p5489349A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:49:24 navigator [~navigator@p5489349A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:31 Hrm. And what are the consequences if the pending-interrupt trap is foiled at PA? 17:52:19 nyef, regarding inode size... Your excuse is: asynchronous inode failure 17:53:03 -!- peterhil [peterhil@ZYMKDCCCXXVI.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:06 I'm having enough other asynchronous failures, I don't want to have to think about asynchronous inode failures. 17:55:20 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.70.232] has quit [Quit: sellout] 17:55:35 p_l: true, but the current way is not relevant, for things that are on the Internet. 17:57:08 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-22-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:27 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 18:01:11 nyef: taddccctv is deprecated and shouldn't be used. But I guess if you're only running 32-bit apps, it's ok. 18:01:59 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:27 Well, it's -not- used, but it's an awful long mnemonic. 18:02:51 .... o_O 18:02:56 that's long, yeah 18:04:20 How about the wonderful ppc mnemonics where a period follows the mnemonic to say that the flags are affected? Who's idea was that? 18:04:22 Ah. I see where I went wrong with this analysis. #xb is 1011, not 1010. 18:04:38 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:04:40 Probably someone at IBM, given that the convention was inherited from POWER. 18:04:43 I thought ppc was fully interlocked. 18:04:53 Or it could be inherited from somewhere else... 18:05:10 Yeah, it is, I somehow lost my ability to convert hex to binary in my head for a bit. 18:05:25 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:05:26 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-151.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:06:02 Well, whoever invented that should be forced to wear glasses and stare at tiny little fonts and debug assembly code for the rest of his life. :-) 18:06:27 Hence my complete confuzzlement as to what was going on. I thought one of the important bits of data was being stomped, and it wasn't. 18:06:41 rtoym: Heh. Printouts and magnifying glasses. 18:07:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-169.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:07:25 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:42 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:11 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:21 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:08:30 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA93C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:34 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.97.67.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:15 Oh, hell. What were the consequences of a missed interrupt in PA again? 18:12:32 I just found -another- bloody race condition. 18:15:18 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 18:16:57 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-216-141.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17:33 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:18:58 nyef: given that PowerPC was kind-of simplified POWER, the naming convention is probably derived from whatever POWER derived it from (probably ROMP, which probably derived it from something else? :P) 18:19:33 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-8-255.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:55 Right, the period-suffix convention is clearly visible in the examples of POWER mnemonics given by the PowerPC archref. 18:20:37 *p_l* recalls that IBM stopped making separate PowerPC and POWER anymore, it seems 18:21:37 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-95.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 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[Client Quit] 19:34:29 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:34:31 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 19:35:14 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:24 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:26 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:35:26 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 19:36:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:41:08 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:49 qfluid [~mzhang@mzhang-linux.ucsd.edu] has joined #lisp 19:44:41 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:46:23 hi, just started playing with clisp, and by mistake typed something (erf 0) and REPL won't return to prompt or print out debug msg...C-c etc doesn't work either. How do I get back prompt? 19:47:39 qfluid: no prompt at all? 19:47:52 I'm rather partial to killall -9 recently, but that's because of the bug I've been hunting for most of the past month. 19:48:29 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:48:49 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:49:06 So if a conference (e.g. the ILC) is on the 19th, 20th, and 21st, am I likely to need to get into town on the 18th to be ready to go first thing in the morning of the 19th? 19:49:16 *gigamonkey* hasn't been to enough conferences. 19:49:53 is this the one in reno? you'll probably stay up all night at the blackjack tables on the night of the 18th 19:50:21 milanj [~milanj_@109.93.202.190] has joined #lisp 19:51:26 Luckily my first experience with gambling was a losing one--put me off it for good. 19:53:17 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 19:58:02 children: the genetic lottery 19:58:47 gigamonkey: i'm a conference newbie, but i'd plan to have some cushion to be there ahead of the registration/sign-in timeframe. 19:59:31 You down with ILC? 19:59:58 yeah, you know me! 20:00:01 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:03 *gigamonkey* cheers! 20:00:08 *Xach* is going to BLM too 20:00:17 So when are you going? 20:00:40 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:00:43 I haven't heard the schedule yet, haven't made any plans. 20:05:09 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-94-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 20:05:41 sellout [~greg@81.253.73.62] has joined #lisp 20:05:43 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:06:49 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:58 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:07:22 thunk 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[~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:28 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:59 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:21:46 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-82-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:09 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:25:49 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:03 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:07 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:38:09 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:38:10 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 21:39:36 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: brb] 21:43:58 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:44:43 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:57 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07f188.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:52:48 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.3.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:09 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-070-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:05 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:51 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:55:53 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:57:22 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:01:55 What's the cleanest way to CFFI to a function defined in a header? 22:02:57 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:03:48 copy its definition and compile it to a library. 22:04:39 any way to get CFFI to do that? 22:04:55 I know it can do something along those lines to determine the size of a type at compiletime 22:07:29 Automatic wrapper-function generation? 22:08:53 no, automatic compilation and linking of a header 22:08:54 nyef: I guess taking its address wouldn't pollute the address space as much. 22:09:13 s/address space/global namespace/ 22:09:46 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 22:14:24 Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 22:15:42 lispm [~lispm@g224126127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:45 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:05 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224126127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:16 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA93C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:27 Xach, sorry had to run earlier, here's situ: http://paste.lisp.org/+2EV0 22:18:53 as you can see, I can type bunch of stuff, but to no effect. 22:21:51 pkhuong: So dump the function address to a public variable in a wrapper library, and just call through that? 22:23:26 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:52 nyef: I was thinking to aggregate it all in a function, and call the function early to get a bunch of function pointers. 22:24:31 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:25:01 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:02 (or an array of function pointers if the standard you're using allows such initialisers) 22:25:04 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:25:04 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 22:35:02 Either way, you end up with a wrapper library. 22:38:05 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-120-72.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 22:39:37 -!- faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:42:50 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:43:32 hi all, I was playing with lisp in REPL, and am typed a func wrong and now I can't get back prompt: http://paste.lisp.org/+2EV0 22:43:40 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 22:44:02 barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has joined #lisp 22:44:05 I suppose I could kill it in shell and restart, but since I am still playing around, things like this might happen again, often...how do I get back the prompt? 22:44:42 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:12 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:33 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 22:45:41 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:45:55 <_3b`> qfluid: that function should return, and C-c (^C) should interrupt things, so it looks like something else is wrong with your lisp 22:46:24 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:36 <_3b`> (assuming you didn't do something else strange before that to get it into an unusual state) 22:46:40 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:57 baddog` [~user@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:47:34 -!- baddog` [~user@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:47:34 baddog` [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 22:48:13 *_3b`* doesn't use clisp enough to help beyond that though :/ 22:49:12 -!- baddog` is now known as baddog 22:51:21 ephcon [~ephcon@pool-173-77-26-166.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:34 dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:52:27 _3b`, arh...thanks, killed in shell then 22:52:42 _3b`, yep, restarting and issuing the same func works. 22:53:00 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:18 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:37 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 22:56:02 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:08 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.202.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:02 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:55 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.122.82.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:04:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:04:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:10:15 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:32 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:07 mindCrime [~chatzilla@eth0-2.nmd.four.lax.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:28 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:41 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 23:24:56 -!- baddog [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:34 What's the map function that iterates over successive cons cells of a list? 23:28:17 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:30 clhs mapcar 23:28:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 23:28:34 It's one of those. 23:28:37 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e216c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 23:33:27 -!- zophy-ng [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:38:48 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:50 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:38:50 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 23:41:58 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:07 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 23:49:55 Is there a way to get the lambda list of a function? 23:50:31 clhs function-lambda-expression 23:50:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 23:50:43 Note that it permitted to forget the actual definition completely. 23:50:57 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.84.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:02 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:21 so, no reliable way :/ 23:54:08 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:27 Is there any way to get cffi:defcfun to make an &optional argument, and supply it with a default value? 23:56:30 looks like no 23:56:31 -!- 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