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The code is very simple: http://pastebin.com/pqMK08sw 01:54:07 SexpImp: (gimme-string pl) calls the macro with the symbol PL as the only argument. 01:54:26 Macros work with the source of their arguments, as s-expressions. 01:55:16 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-49-76.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:35 minion: advice on frobnitzer? 01:58:35 #11938: If you have `some weird error', the problem is probably with your frobnitzer. 01:58:49 -!- thunk is now known as thunk|away 02:03:01 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:17 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:11 -!- dlowe [~user@c-66-30-114-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:09:22 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 02:11:13 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:29 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:14:36 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 02:16:32 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:04 -!- thunk|away is now known as thunk 02:18:36 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:18:36 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 02:19:16 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:23:07 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 02:24:27 Dear G'd... I need some extra macro classes :( 02:25:01 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-6.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:25:26 SexpImp, macros are just for trivial stuff like capturing bindings or reflecting syntax into lists, all the computation happens in procedures -- learn lisp without macros and you will know how to use them 02:28:07 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 02:30:00 *cmsimon* hugs soupdragon 02:30:07 hiya :) 02:30:14 (: 02:31:07 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:31:16 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-185.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:31:56 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:32:59 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:05 hola 02:33:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:07 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.45] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:37:06 -!- thunk is now known as thunk|away 02:41:34 anyone had lispbuilder-SDL working with ccl on win32? 02:41:57 the examples seem to freeze emacs/ccl 02:42:14 soupdragon: interesting assertion. I wouldn't go as far as saying that macros only perform "trivial" manipulations. 02:42:17 ignis [~quassel@c-98-226-186-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:38 -!- ignis is now known as ignis_ 02:44:32 -!- thunk|away is now known as thunk 02:44:46 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 02:46:32 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:32 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:05 symbole [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:00 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 02:55:09 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 02:57:52 Snamich [~Snamich@166.189.151.139] has joined #lisp 02:58:19 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:06:27 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11:27 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-131-55.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:14:02 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 03:15:53 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-75-4.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:54 -!- lusory [~bart@bb119-74-201-132.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19:17 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:11 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-230-28.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:22:38 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:25:50 on-lisp is a pretty good read though, I've been using the shite out of anaphorics 03:26:41 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-135.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 03:27:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:28:16 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:28:56 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 03:28:59 how do i set the WM caption in lispbuilder-sdl? 03:29:12 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:42 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:09 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:45 (sdl:set-caption "foo") 03:32:07 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:33:05 or (sdl:window 640 480 :title-caption "foo) 03:33:13 "* 03:33:46 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 03:34:35 my net is painfully slow today :/ 03:34:58 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: soupdragon] 03:35:35 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:35:49 thanks bytecolor :-) 03:37:09 i will be murdered in ILGE2010; zero experience here :-/ 03:40:45 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:26 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 03:42:50 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-135.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:46:27 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 03:46:29 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Client Quit] 03:47:15 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 03:47:39 I have a handler function for :video-expose-event; which aught to draw random dots and lines, but it only draws ONCE 03:51:18 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 03:53:44 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:25 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:19 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 04:03:58 i can do everything when reacting to input events; but i want to do screen updating without i/o, like a demo 04:04:01 jonathans [~jonathans@cpe-68-175-81-179.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:10 Test 04:04:19 -!- jonathans [~jonathans@cpe-68-175-81-179.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:36 Good morning everyone! 04:10:45 hey beach 04:10:48 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.200] has joined #lisp 04:14:29 heh, lispbuilder has both INITIALIZE* and INITIALISE* functions :-P 04:18:10 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:21:23 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.200] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:26:36 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:38:02 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@166.189.151.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:38:03 !konsole 04:40:40 sorry, wrong window 04:43:58 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:48:08 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 04:51:30 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:13:51 -!- rme [rme@clozure-F99A37CC.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:13:51 -!- rme [~rme@pool-68-238-7-51.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:25:21 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:44 XAMPP [~XAMPP@botters/xampp] has joined #lisp 05:27:07 are there any lisp bots in here? 05:27:35 *eval 05:27:57 XAMPP: There are bots, but no eval bot. 05:28:00 KevinDHaX0r [439f2c33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.159.44.51] has joined #lisp 05:28:05 ah thanks 05:28:10 -!- XAMPP [~XAMPP@botters/xampp] has left #lisp 05:30:57 rat_ [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:44 How do I do a case statement over strings? Or something idiomatically equivalent, anyways. 05:33:02 rlpowell: I think there is something like that in Alexandria. 05:33:15 -!- SexpImp [c95281f7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:33:33 (case (intern "fo") ('|fo| 1)) -- Ugh. I think I would be swallowed by hell if I used that in production. 05:33:57 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 05:34:13 You don't event need the intern 05:34:31 rlpowell: If the number of cases is large and you care about performance, use a hash table, otherwise, use cond. 05:34:45 find-symbol is enough :-) 05:34:48 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-193.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:34:50 rlpowell: also, drop the quote 05:35:59 beach: Thanks. 05:36:04 *rlpowell* forgot about cond. 05:40:22 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-13-253.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:07 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-75-4.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 05:45:25 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:49:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:49:29 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:00 anyone here use the Y-Cominator to write anonymous recusive functions. 05:52:57 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53:11 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 05:53:49 KevinDHaX0r: No. 05:54:23 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-36-12.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:58:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.203] has joined #lisp 06:04:58 The SICL project now has an embryonic web page on cl.net, and there are only 5 more functions to implement in the cons-high module. Some more tests are needed before a release though. 06:06:01 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 06:06:06 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:47 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:07:04 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:53 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:12:09 -!- ignis_ [~quassel@c-98-226-186-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:12:49 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]] 06:15:21 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 06:15:45 -!- barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:16:24 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:24 -!- KevinDHaX0r [439f2c33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.159.44.51] has left #lisp 06:20:03 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:20:46 -!- mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:21:54 hm 06:22:23 I wonder how long it's been since anyone tried to build sbcl on sunos/sparc 06:22:52 Snamich [~Snamich@32.170.18.13] has joined #lisp 06:25:16 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:25:16 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:55 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:16 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:31:55 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-172-144.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:35:37 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:35 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 06:42:49 good morning europe 06:44:17 hello manic12 06:44:26 hi beach 06:46:14 my brain is too dull to code and too awake to sleep 06:46:34 Write documentation. 06:47:03 theres only 15 minutes left in the pay period 06:47:16 That's enough for a good docstring. 06:48:32 i do have a module i need to document, but that would take a few days 06:50:00 this is actually a good time to review what i need to do tomorrow 06:51:14 of course that would be an exercise in avoiding reality 06:52:18 reality= laundry; clean bathroom; etc. 06:52:59 fortunately reality is OT! 06:59:43 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:00:40 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:38 good morning california 07:02:07 somebody ask a lisp question so i can attempt to be useful 07:02:18 besides pkhuong 07:02:48 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:03:45 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:39 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:54 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:07:12 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e1a49-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 07:09:05 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:36 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:12:43 manic: What does (subtypep '(array integer) '(array real)) return? 07:13:47 my first guess is nil, but i would have to cheat and try it 07:14:19 oops 07:15:01 next 07:16:12 are there any legitimate questions? 07:16:42 Tryuing it wouldn't help. 07:16:51 You'd actually have to do some reading. 07:17:17 what's hard to read about "t" 07:17:27 It's wrong. 07:17:36 t is wrong? 07:17:44 Yes. 07:17:59 so i was right and i need to file a bug report? 07:18:08 No. 07:18:24 You need to do some reading. :) 07:18:44 of what the spec? 07:19:45 Sure. Then you can work on your punctuation. 07:21:09 so i was right but my punctuation and my lisp are wrong and i need to read, anything more useful? 07:21:36 You could probably also get a life and go outside more often before it is too late. 07:21:53 it's 12:20 am i just got home 07:22:30 Excuses, excuses .... 07:23:02 this is oakland, not much going on at 12:20 unless you're a pot smoker 07:23:23 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 07:25:31 san francisco, however, is hopping 07:27:01 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:27:06 still though, I'm confused as to why I am being toyed with like a mouse about to be killed by a cat 07:27:43 *manic12* should be happy that he is of some entertainment value 07:27:47 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 07:29:18 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-75-4.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:24 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-75-4.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:33:25 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-49-215.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:33:26 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:54 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:17 Zhivago what is the point? 07:37:06 just say it instead of being elusive and aloof 07:38:12 manic12: You might be overreacting. You kind of asked for it. 07:38:30 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-49-215.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:39:15 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.97.54] has joined #lisp 07:39:15 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.97.54] has quit [Changing host] 07:39:15 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:39:22 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:44:04 explaining would be helpful, but helpful is OT 07:45:02 manic12: you don't need to take all answers, some are there just to be ignored 07:45:02 Zhivago: Hey man. This interests me. Would you care explaining why sbcl says T and it is wrong and all, or maybe be so kind as to point me to what sections of the spec I could read to figure this out? 07:45:30 schmrkc: sbcl isn't wrong to say T. 07:45:46 Zhivago: you "t is wrong" ? 07:45:50 eh 07:45:53 s/you/yet/ 07:46:02 schmrkc: In answer to a different question. 07:46:05 Oh! 07:46:25 Well n/m then :) 07:47:23 now i'm totally confused 07:47:27 schmrkc: The interesting part to read about is upgraded-array-element-type 07:47:36 Excellent. 07:47:48 *schmrkc* needs something to do this slow morning and fires up the old w3m. 07:47:52 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48:24 Personally, I think this is an area of maldesign in CL. 07:49:29 is "undefined" the answer?? 07:50:23 I'd prefer "implementation specific". 07:50:41 you could have just said that 07:50:42 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:52 It depends on how the implementation has chosen to represent the arrays in question -- i.e., on classes. 07:51:18 *manic12* is happy to not be totally wrong 07:51:26 maniac: I could also have ridden around in circles on a unicycle while balancing a fish on myhead. 07:51:35 upgraded-array-element-type + subtypep reading in clhs seems to tell the story quite well. 07:51:40 that would have been cool 07:51:52 ANd a perfidious story it is. 07:51:55 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 THis also applies to floats. 07:52:10 hrrrm 07:52:20 It does leave a bit of a sour taste. 07:52:21 But not, as it happens, to conses. 07:52:37 so the other day in the first minute i learned something from Xach, today it was a bit more difficult 07:52:59 maniac: It's probably because of your personality. 07:53:24 just say it, unicycle and all 07:54:51 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:55:57 simpletons prefer simple honesty, it's a personality thing 07:57:00 manic12: Here's a suggestion. If someone suggests you read, ask what to read specifically :) 07:57:26 i sort of did, just not specifically enough 07:58:12 the C in IRC is Chat afaik though 07:58:59 internet relay confounding 07:59:10 er something 08:01:06 -!- rat_ [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:14 Zhivago, I hold nothing against you. So long as we both understand that I'm a retard, and I can live with that, can you? 08:01:28 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 08:02:01 If you're mentally retarded you should probably find a different hobby. 08:02:21 Banging rocks together or something. 08:02:45 yeah, it's enough that Lisp is my full time job, I should have other hobbies. 08:03:02 Probably. 08:03:29 An inappropriate career choice can often bring unhappiness. 08:03:46 Zhivago - the fortune cookie (: 08:04:00 what career should you get into then? 08:04:19 manic12: I personally think it is appropriate to have a hobby maybe not exactly the same as one's fulltime job. Especially if the job is very computer oriented :) 08:04:34 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:36 i agree 08:04:45 i like to hike 08:05:04 *schmrkc* ponders if he should or not. 08:05:08 Well, retards traditionally go into careers involving furious masturbation or carrying things from place to place or the french government. 08:05:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:05:17 never been good at rhyming though 08:05:42 Well, probably most governments. 08:06:05 But there is documentation about the French government. 08:06:06 you can get a job as a furious masturbator? 08:06:50 I think it falls into the job description of Village Idiot. 08:06:53 they're called fluffers. 08:07:29 george bush is a fluffer? 08:08:33 Zhivago you must get lonely 08:09:11 Due to? 08:09:24 or do you party with extra-terrestrials? 08:10:10 due to communication issues trying to relate concepts to all the feeble minds around you 08:10:43 Oh, that's no problem, really. 08:10:51 but I do appreciate being challenged 08:11:02 By what? 08:11:11 subtypep 08:11:16 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 08:12:36 i have a pet cat, she loves love, she doesn't care about calculus 08:14:31 Does it smell like cat food? 08:14:56 coders are more or less like technicians in my lab, most coders who use lisp are no smarter than those don't although they feel so. 08:15:09 cat food is one of the four components of love 08:15:54 the other three are water, clean litter box and affection 08:16:09 leo: How are they on grammar? 08:16:37 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:17:19 eventually if you stay in lisp long enough you tend to graduate to realize that non-lisper coders are just as smart, but you feel sorry for them anyway 08:17:38 most people here speak proper educated British accent except foreigners like me. 08:18:10 are americans foreigners too? 08:18:17 yeah 08:18:37 some Americans try to sound British, but it is just ridiculous. 08:18:43 stassats: It depends on how fortunate the circumstances of your birth were. 08:18:47 haha 08:19:36 manic12: Feeling sorry about how non-lispers pick languages with easy access to good quality libraries, and Getting Things Done.. ? 08:19:55 most smart people around me actually are very humble. 08:19:59 schmrkc: slackers! 08:20:20 leo: Does that make you feel better about it? 08:20:36 stassats: Ya. chosing the easy way out :) 08:20:40 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 08:20:45 not really, it teaches me a lot though. 08:24:33 dr_maligno [~dr_malign@69.Red-88-8-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:32 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:07 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:34:55 Have a nice Sunday, everyone. 08:35:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.10] 08:39:18 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has joined #lisp 08:41:00 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:41:32 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:43:04 -!- Adlai```` [~adlai@109.65.19.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:47:07 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:52:49 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 08:53:40 -!- coyo is now known as SleepingYote 08:55:11 fiveop [~fiveop@g229108096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:05 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:05:22 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:43 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:48 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:25:17 peterbb [~peterbb@13.181.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:27:23 bleakgadfly [~cato@168.81-166-171.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:10 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e2efb-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:38:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-143-125.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:47:24 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:50:27 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-62.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:52:51 good day everyone 09:53:52 dabd [~dabd@a81-84-216-81.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 09:55:27 -!- dr_maligno [~dr_malign@69.Red-88-8-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:56:17 xan_ [~xan@host217-39-12-124.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:10 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-143-125.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:06:03 -!- dabd 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leaving] 10:37:11 dr_maligno [~dr_malign@89.129.213.77] has joined #lisp 10:38:05 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-193-94.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:41 nha_ [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:57:32 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:19 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:03:21 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:54 -!- nha_ is now known as nha 11:11:09 -!- dr_maligno [~dr_malign@89.129.213.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:18:22 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 11:31:59 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:37:55 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B97A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:02 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:38:41 dfox [~dfox@r11mg201.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 11:38:54 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:53 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:40:50 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-135-174.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:12 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:43:41 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:43:42 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:11 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:19 moah [~gnu@188.109.145.248] has joined #lisp 11:49:09 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:51:01 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 11:51:34 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:52:15 *Xach* feels the super-excitement building 11:55:57 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:32 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 11:59:53 I could slice this tension with a kitchen knife 12:02:22 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:45 quicklisp out RSN? 12:06:14 No doubt about it! 12:06:45 *Xach* has figured out how to manage single-implementation libraries and semi-secluded universes like dwim.hu 12:07:26 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-129-169.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:08:57 rme [~rme@pool-68-238-7-51.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:40 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-128-172.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:11:58 -!- beach` is now known as beach 12:14:24 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:17:06 mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:54 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:29:12 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 12:36:07 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined 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services] 12:58:27 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:58:29 -!- beach` is now known as beach 13:00:17 antifuchs: do you have time for a short pm? 13:00:39 what's up? 13:04:30 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:04:30 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:25 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:08:12 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:09:16 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:12 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:16:51 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:02 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:19:22 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11mg201.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20:29 chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.53.46] has joined #lisp 13:22:52 kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:23:32 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-62.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:58 bgs100 [~ian@h106.238.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:01 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h106.238.22.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:24:01 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:27:26 lichtblau: do you think SSE intrinsics should go in sb-ext, or in something like sb-sse? 13:37:42 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 13:39:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@host217-39-12-124.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:39:51 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:59 G'morning all. 13:40:06 hello nyef 13:41:08 So, I've just turned up -another- group of windows where the GC will corrupt the program counter on PPC. 13:42:46 And I can see why they haven't been found before: It's a -lot- harder to land an asynchronous signal on one under a unithreaded regime. 13:57:10 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.53.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:10:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-138.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:14:03 Ugh. And the convention half the time is to overwrite reg_CODE while there is no other live reference to its current value other than the program counter itself. :-/ 14:15:17 hmmm... quick question, how good is SBCL on SPARC? 14:16:05 (or should I go with SCL?) 14:16:28 p_l: Go with something other than SPARC! 14:17:10 whr [~user@chello084010174193.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:17:47 beach: I've got schematics for radiation hardened SPARC 14:18:04 tone12345 [bc52292f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.82.41.47] has joined #lisp 14:18:40 p_l: sbcl doesn't do threads on sparc, and only has a two-space GC. If you want to actually make that sparc useful, you probably want SCL. 14:18:47 ok 14:19:11 Or, you know, do the work to make SBCL not suck on sparc! 14:19:41 I -think- I have PPC mostly in shape now, modulo these GC problems. 14:19:56 nyef: I think that if I get to work on *that* I'll have more work in building the cpu to work on GC :P 14:20:51 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:20:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-138.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:21:03 frito [~user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:19 francogrex [~user@109.130.59.169] has joined #lisp 14:23:00 How do you monitor the latest news in CL? Is it here or the usenet group or another site updated daily/weekly? 14:23:02 it's something I discussed with friend in robotics course :) 14:23:09 francogrex: planet lisp 14:23:21 http://planet.lisp.org/ 14:23:53 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:23:53 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:24:02 p_l: ok thx seems quite uptodate 14:24:12 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:24:21 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest98202 14:24:25 francogrex: For newsgroups there is comp.lang.lisp 14:24:30 -!- Guest98202 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:25:07 -!- tone12345 [bc52292f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.82.41.47] has left #lisp 14:25:40 btw, someone has a kill-file for that one to share? 14:25:54 beach: yes I like that also i go there to read almost daily 14:29:09 offtopic/can you belive there are worms running aroound behid my PC screen, everyday i see more! 14:29:17 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:31:33 p_l: wait for people to link to interesting threads here (: 14:32:20 francogrex: http://password-taxi.at/EQL <--- you might be interested 14:32:25 pkhuong: haha 14:33:32 p_l: very nice 14:34:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:35:59 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.59.169] has quit [Quit: will be back in the evening] 14:39:14 -!- frito [~user@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:01 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-62.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:50:20 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:51:45 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:12 -!- s3r3n1ty [~s3r3n1ty@190.213.44.77] has left #lisp 14:58:33 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:01:22 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:45 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:45 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:08:10 chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.52.34] has joined #lisp 15:11:37 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:16:18 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:19:21 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-185.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:19:38 hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-185.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:19:52 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-62.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:19:56 fundamental [~fundament@cvar.townhouse.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 15:22:55 bojovs [~bojovs@p5067-ipad46hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:23:20 -!- bojovs [~bojovs@p5067-ipad46hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:23:40 bojovs [~bojovs@p5067-ipad46hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:23:43 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:08 hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:28:02 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:14 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:10 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:33 -!- Blkt` is now known as Blkt 15:35:55 -!- bojovs [~bojovs@p5067-ipad46hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:16 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:39:29 anyone have any experience getting sbcl to run on a virtual server when it quits with an memory allocation error ? 15:40:08 "memory allocation error"? 15:40:18 it's a known problem 15:40:29 But -what- error? 15:40:33 p_l: cmucl works reasonably well on sparc. I used to use it as my primary platform. No threads, but it does have gencgc. 15:40:47 lemme run it and get the error 15:41:13 zophy: Is it the "failed to validate" error or a different one? 15:41:25 p_l: cmucl having gencgc makes fixing up sbcl to have gencgc much easier. 15:41:49 And once sbcl has gencgc on a platform it becomes a lot easier to add threading. 15:41:50 nyef, omg, it runs today 15:42:09 Having ppc/gencgc is much easier to get sparc/gencgc going on sbcl than using the cmucl version. 15:42:10 zophy: Can't help you, then. 15:42:24 rtoym: Probably true, actually. 15:43:11 nyef, up 159 days, geez i don't know what changed 15:45:47 peddie____ [~peddie@adsl-99-22-93-70.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:57 -!- peddie___ [~peddie@adsl-99-69-97-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:12 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:00 nyef, it was an error about mapping memory at 0x9000000, i'll bet it happens again 15:53:01 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:04 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 There are only two or three possible causes, one of which is mmap randomization. 15:54:36 Another of which is virtual memory limits. 15:55:31 i only have 1 gig of memory on that server 15:56:44 whatever virtual server tektonic.net is using, i forget 15:56:49 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:59 ah, openvz 16:01:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:11 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:48 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:49 -!- benny [~user@i577A7C85.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:48 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:34 bbbbbbbbaaaaa [~yujiwen@2001:250:1006:5087:21b:77ff:fed6:1f70] has joined #lisp 16:16:06 New testing idea for SBCL: Install a signal handler (such as SIGUSR1 or SIGUSR2) that just calls GC. Start a long-running SBCL and kill it often with that signal. 16:16:25 Basically stress the GC invariants. 16:16:46 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 16:23:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:26:35 benny [~user@i577A72A7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:21 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:43 ignis [~quassel@c-98-226-186-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:44 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-11-221.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 16:29:11 -!- ignis is now known as Guest19443 16:29:50 -!- Guest19443 is now known as ignis_ 16:31:09 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 16:34:24 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:05 http://paste.lisp.org/+2EPH 16:36:11 C ould someone see what's wrong with my .lispworks file in lw-add-ons http://paste.lisp.org/+2EPH 16:36:54 -!- bbbbbbbbaaaaa [~yujiwen@2001:250:1006:5087:21b:77ff:fed6:1f70] has left #lisp 16:37:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:38:47 Use the debugger to figure out what's causing it, or comment out each form until it works. 16:38:57 *rtoym* doesn't use lispworks. 16:40:40 -!- hkBst [~hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has left #lisp 16:42:26 I get the error : In a call to LENGTH: :UNSPECIFIC is not of type SEQUENCE. What could that be ? I'll try commenting out 16:43:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-152.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:44:21 Your defvars look wrong. 16:44:38 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:07 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:51 -!- bigjust` is now known as bigjust 16:55:13 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:56:36 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-36-12.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:57:46 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-43-174.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:04:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:52 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:10:02 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:40 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:11:58 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:13:42 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:17 What does # character mean, like #+ or #- ? 17:17:30 clhs #+ 17:17:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 17:18:07 # is a dispatching macro character 17:18:33 Joreji [~thomas@90-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:21:15 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:21:53 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:04 eugu [~eugene@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 17:35:19 blandest [~user@109.166.138.93] has joined #lisp 17:41:37 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:43:52 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:33 -!- SleepingYote [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:48:15 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.183] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 hmm anyone know of a way for custom setf-expanders to have lexical scope? 17:49:43 (using define-setf-expander that is) 17:50:05 phadthai: have a toplevel expander into a form that'll be expanded via macrolet. Or, if setf functions are enough, you can simply define them as local functions. 17:50:43 macro expanders are prefered as this is to enable some inline optimizations 17:50:54 thanks I'll look into using macrolet with it 17:51:18 why can't you use inline functions or compiler macros for that? 17:52:19 I tried inline functions but the implementation ignored the inline directive; but setf expander tests were a working solution, just that I need it to be restricted to a lexical scope 17:53:25 and what implementation is that (also, if the compiler doesn't use inline declarations, is forcing inlining really the simplest way to get the performance you need?) 17:53:25 perhaps that compiler macros would work, I've not tried using them yet. This is to provide accessors to internal C structure fields via FFI 17:53:50 -!- hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-185.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:03 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-185.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:54:16 ECL with a custom FFI library built on top of its C inline capabilities 17:54:43 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:59 and you're compiling that code; it's not executed via the interpreter, right? 17:55:19 right 17:55:35 for interpreted code it's possible to use setf functions 17:56:28 francogrex [~user@109.130.59.169] has joined #lisp 17:56:32 mm.. how do you know the inline declaration is completely ignored (or that inlining helps)? 17:56:53 Another option might be to macrolet the place to something that expands to a call to a genericish expander that calls a lexical function... 17:57:21 the macro generating the setf functions used directives to tell the compiler to inline them but I've not seen any inlined calls in the resulting C source 17:57:50 Have you seen the out-of-line calls 17:57:51 ? 17:58:16 Are the corresponding C functions declared inline, per chance? 17:58:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.73.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:59:12 (inline or static) Or maybe ECL simply trusts the C compiler will be able to tell which functions to inline well enough; that's a reasonable assumption. 17:59:25 ECL doesn't declare inline C functions so far I think; it also needs symbols to load objects in many cases, although that might be an area of future work 17:59:51 yes possibly that telling the compiler to automatically inline some functions would inline some of them 18:00:16 nyef: do you mean the explicit function calls by out-of-line calls? 18:00:18 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.67.219] has joined #lisp 18:00:23 yes they were visible 18:00:59 Fair enough. 18:01:26 dfox [~dfox@r11mg201.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 this is a non-critical micro-optimization phase, since the library works fine, so I'm getting aquainted with some CL features I've not used before at the same time 18:02:31 so thanks for the suggestions I'll try solutions around them 18:03:11 Okay, I -might- finally have the bogus-program-counter bug nailed. 18:11:36 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:14:12 ... except that I forgot about the scheduler. I'll have to re-check my work after the build completes. 18:15:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:51 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:24:27 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:24:42 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:24:48 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:30 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-11-221.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 18:26:31 That ECL ignores inline declarations is unfortunate, partly because function calls are relatively expensive in that implementation, but also (since having begun to acquire the ability to infer types) for their utility in writing efficient polymorphic functions, where inlining at the C level is unlikely to yield the same benefit. 18:26:48 Oh well, no hurry. ECL marches forward. 18:28:22 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:29:39 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:30:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35:23 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082C0F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:44 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:39 how to I shadow specifically one function from a specific package. I have iterate:count and common-lisp-user:count and I want to shadow the one of iterate (I used to know how but I forgot) 18:37:32 <_3b> clhs defpackage 18:37:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 18:37:52 hefner: I find that ECL has many nice features but some basic ones like declarations and inlining continue to be deficient despite constant updates 18:37:53 <_3b> :shadowing-import-from ? 18:37:54 francogrex: shadowing-import-from 18:38:26 does iterate still have COUNT exported? i only have COUNTING here 18:38:33 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082BFEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:41 oh maybe they fixed it 18:38:52 I have probably an older version! 18:39:03 francogrex: you could say the same thing about every lisp implementation, for various choices of basic features 18:39:32 stassats: wouldn't that be CL:COUNT? 18:39:34 hefner: true 18:40:09 *antifuchs* releases clucumber 0.2.0 18:40:27 pkhuong: no idea 18:41:55 *Xach* would expect to find a clucumber in a clornucopia 18:42:21 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.59.169] has quit [Quit: be back after the world cup final match] 18:43:45 cddr [~user@5ac75eca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:21 Xach: it's an odd cl package, in that it's a ruby gem (: 18:44:34 lol 18:45:20 basically, "gem install clucumber" and you can write your cucumber step definitions in common lisp. Now guaranteed compatibility with sbcl and allegro CL (ansi) 18:47:32 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:47:49 what's supposed to happen if you `use-package' a package that doesn't exist? 18:48:02 Komi [Komi@83.231.89.76] has joined #lisp 18:48:02 A package-error is signaled. 18:48:04 cddr: an error 18:48:08 hi 18:48:21 sbcl just seems to freeze for me 18:48:26 *p_l* gem install clucumber 18:48:48 cddr: your sbcl is too old 18:49:03 cddr: let's guess, you're in slime? 18:49:07 yup 18:49:21 SBCL 1.0.37.36 18:49:31 let's not guess, let's update instead 18:52:05 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-43-174.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:52:43 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:17 johanlindberg [~johanlind@81-234-18-19-o286.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:29 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 19:01:03 does anybody use actors/stm with cl? 19:01:16 minion: cl-stm? 19:01:17 cl-stm: CL-STM is a concurrency library providing Software Transactional Memory. http://www.cliki.net/cl-stm 19:01:31 slime is just gosh darn sweet 19:02:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:07:35 rkm_ [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has joined #lisp 19:09:25 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:18:30 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:36 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:19 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-234.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:40 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:22:25 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 19:22:51 When installing CL-TYPESETTING using SBCL, I'm getting the error: "package "EXT" not found." What is the "EXT" package? 19:23:26 extension package of some implementation 19:24:55 stassats: I see. So CL-TYPESETTING is not compatible with SBCL? 19:25:12 maybe 19:25:55 NIR[f] [~root@188.92.193.208] has joined #lisp 19:26:03 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:59 francogrex [~user@109.130.59.169] has joined #lisp 19:27:17 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:27:17 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:18 niels_ [~chatzilla@ip72-218-209-107.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:04 EXT is more likely a CMUCL thing than an SBCL thing. The equivalent SBCL package is SB-EXT. 19:29:05 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:38 nyef: Thanks, I'll try that 19:30:07 for people who work with "cl-sql" type libraries; did you find a good way to define user functions in cl and register them in the relational database that is accessed by CL? 19:31:03 *stassats* got a dozen of zombie mcclim frames 19:31:17 lolage` [~areyoufuc@cpc2-blfs1-0-0-cust267.belf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:33 now i need to figure how to kill them 19:31:38 Axius [~hi@92.82.65.82] has joined #lisp 19:32:00 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:02 killing CLX thread wasn't a good idea 19:34:24 -!- fundamental [~fundament@cvar.townhouse.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:36:06 (map-over-ports #'destroy-port) might still clean the mess up (you may need to run that twice), provided those functions actually exist (my mcclim knowledge is rusting over) 19:36:56 -!- eugu [~eugene@212.1.246.237] has left #lisp 19:39:05 nyef: That was the problem. Changing ext:run-program to sb:ext-run-program in graph.lisp worked. Thanks again. 19:39:21 can i put an application-frame inside another application frame? 19:39:46 stassats: in theory, yes. in practice, it's a SMOP. 19:39:49 s/sb:ext-run-program/sb-ext:run-program/ 19:39:51 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:40:43 or is it better just to have several panes and switch between them and between command tables? 19:42:26 stassats: that is to say that you have the opportunity to make history as the person to finally realize the often-discussed but never implemented frame manager for embedding application frames inside a pane within another frame =p 19:42:58 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:42 stassats: it depends on your application. 19:44:36 oh well, i'm only starting to understand this whole frames/panes/layouts business, i guess it will be more clear later 19:45:15 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.65.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:15 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.105.51] has joined #lisp 19:46:15 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.105.51] has quit [Changing host] 19:46:15 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 19:47:25 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:48:14 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:48:59 stassats: Maybe, maybe not. The "application framework" side of CLIM (command tables, application frames, etc.) is possibly the worst of the under-designed areas of CLIM. I often try to ignore the command framework entirely unless my application includes an interactor pane. 19:49:40 my application does include an interactor-pane 19:50:15 *hefner* struggles searching for a way to rephase "only suitable for trivial applications" that doesn't belittle existing, non-trivial McCLIM applications 19:50:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:01 you used plural there 19:53:17 francogrex: it's impossible with existing libraries, though ECL, LW and ACL can be used for that, at least on Postgres, it's just that no one wrote support for it 19:53:58 francogrex: out of no-sql databases, CouchDB has support for IP-connected external view engines 19:54:16 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:39 for ECL and Postgres, you'd have to make a shared library that would be then loaded by postgres, which would use the Postgres extension api 19:54:44 Trivial UIs, I suppose. I count things like climacs and gsharp as non-trivial, but their UIs might be considered trivial. 19:55:46 p_l: ok, I'm using SQLITE and plain-odbc (with ECL) 19:56:00 (this business of calling things trivial is not very precise, and better if I stop doing it) 19:56:22 francogrex: you can use CFFI (or ECLs native FFI) to register functions with SQLite engine 19:56:54 but only if you're directly linking SQLite, not through ODBC driver 19:57:40 p_l: well, I like odbc but I can also use cl-sqlite that links direct 19:57:43 Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-102.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:58:14 so then I would write the extensions in C 19:58:18 francogrex: you'll probably have to play with CFFI directly anyway, somehow I doubt cl-sqlite includes the necessary callback interface 19:58:34 (but you can use cl-sqlite to access it) 19:58:51 ok i'll try 19:59:03 Good evening everyone! 19:59:17 beach: evening 20:01:08 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.89.76] has left #lisp 20:01:45 hi 20:04:49 -!- rkm_ [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:47 -!- Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-102.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 20:06:10 Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-102.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:07:52 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:59 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:44 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:10 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:18 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: bew] 20:15:37 -!- x-ip [~x-ip@unaffiliated/x-ip] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:15:37 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:42 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.145.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:06 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.59.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:16:29 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:01 -!- Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-102.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:50 *hefner* has spent 25 minutes searching for the correct single message worth of words to say concerning the distress caused by Xach, nyef, and similar CLIM (or McCLIM) haters, particularly considering I don't even like CLIM much myself anymore but am compelled to defend the spirit McCLIM effort 20:25:50 spirit *of the* McCLIM effort, rather 20:25:50 but considering my long history of insensitive bitching and moaning, I'll just accept this as comeuppance and valuable life experience :) 20:27:36 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:42 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:02 *p_l* never got the feeling thta Xach or nyef hated CLIM... 20:28:02 <``Erik> O.o 20:28:41 *nyef* isn't a fan of McCLIM, and finds the CLIM spec to have some truly brain-damaged parts. 20:32:09 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:32:32 riza [~riza@unaffiliated/riza] has joined #lisp 20:33:06 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-73.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:20 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:38 At the same time, CLIM has some truly nice ideas in it that just need a proper home. :-/ 20:35:17 reminds me of Common Lisp 20:36:04 *manic12* is trying to determine if he is brain damaged or in need of a proper home 20:36:34 they aren't mutually exclusive 20:36:56 *manic12* realizes he is just brain damaged 20:37:22 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:25 Axius [~hi@92.82.65.82] has joined #lisp 20:38:12 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:37 for some reason I like mlisp 20:39:27 what's mlisp? 20:39:37 "modern mode" 20:40:12 -!- riza [~riza@unaffiliated/riza] has left #lisp 20:40:53 sad modern mode 20:41:08 mindCrime [~chatzilla@eth0-2.nmd.four.lax.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:37 apparently unfit for our (post-?)post-modern era. 20:41:46 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:02 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:11 post^n-modern 20:42:13 unfit ? 20:42:26 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:42:40 fe[nl]ix: it doesn't see much use, does it? 20:42:57 now is easier to say than post^n-modern 20:43:08 *hefner* likes the idea 20:43:32 you do?? 20:44:11 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:44:12 pkhuong: I wouldn't know 20:45:41 -!- NIR[f] [~root@188.92.193.208] has left #lisp 20:45:59 hefner what do you like about it so i can use your argument 20:46:24 Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-61-149.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:46:48 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:52 manic12: preserving case is nice for FFI. But then there's always :invert. 20:46:54 manic12: I don't know any technical details of ACL's modern mode, but I hate the default upcasing behavior of the CL reader (to which there is no sane alternative) 20:47:20 can't you set default-print-case or something like that? 20:47:40 (read manic reader) 20:48:20 if some implementation would default to :preserve at all times it'd be pretty sane i think (at all time; even bootstrapping the compiler itself etc. since then the symbols in the CL package would also be lower-case) 20:48:34 yeah, i like interning strings exactly as they are in cheap parsers and sending them through a case form 20:48:37 argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 20:48:41 -!- argiopeweb_ is now known as argiopeweb 20:48:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:24 lnostdal: it would not be sane if it purported to implement Common Lisp 20:49:43 yeah 20:49:54 apparently in allegro, i haven't checked yet, there is a way to say what case mode you want at the top of a file to be compiled 20:50:10 so you can have both modes in the same image 20:50:55 i suppose implementing ones own reader is an option .. one that handled anything cl: in a special way 20:51:05 ..then went for :preserve for the rest 20:51:45 (switch back to old reader; then it would still have implemented common lisp -- at the "same time" :P) 20:51:49 case doesn't matter much outside of european charsets 20:53:38 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.52.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:53:44 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:54:15 retreating into your own little sandbox isn't much of a solution 20:54:53 yeah, switch to the jvm instead .. blah .. *afk* 20:55:21 what? 20:55:21 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.65.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:27 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:41 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 21:00:22 waterh [~waterh@114.143.89.199] has joined #lisp 21:00:34 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:38 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:00:43 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:07:54 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-179-16.net.novis.pt] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 27yrs 27wks 2days 12hrs 5mins 58secs] 21:09:03 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:09:45 TR2N [email@89.180.179.16] has joined #lisp 21:10:40 -!- Blkt`` is now known as Blkt 21:11:11 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@13.181.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:12:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:14:23 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:14:27 Komi [Komi@83.231.89.76] has joined #lisp 21:14:34 Alright, back to sexprs. 21:14:35 hi 21:18:55 peterhil [peterhil@ZMKCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:20:27 Hi! I have an array defined as (setq state (make-array 3 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 64))) - How can I set some symbol for referencing the values? 21:21:32 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:21:40 clhs d-s-m 21:21:40 DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 21:22:52 Ok, thank you! 21:23:23 asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has joined #lisp 21:23:32 but that's not a good thing 21:24:06 hi specbot 21:25:41 stassats: I thought so, but care to explain why? I'm just trying to get into functional programming and learning lisp, and thought of porting tiger hash as an exercise... 21:25:47 hmm... writing a forth compiler in CL then writing your app in said Forth... I'd say it's quite crazy app 21:26:10 peterhil: having STATE doesn't look like functional programming 21:26:19 Yes I know... :-) 21:26:33 not that Common Lisp embraces functional programming 21:26:36 I'm trying to get rid of that eventually... 21:26:41 nyef: hey, I still intend to find some time to work on my problem. Will you be on tomorrow? 21:26:51 peterhil: for functional programming, I'd rather recommend Haskell. Common Lisp is multiparadigm and while it's nicer for functional programming than most, it's nowhere close to hardcore FP language 21:27:19 yeah, not masochistic enough 21:27:29 -!- waterh [~waterh@114.143.89.199] has quit [] 21:27:29 Avisch: I should be on tomorrow, but I still don't have a suitable machine for developing on. 21:27:53 p_l: I have looked into Haskell and actually read about two thirds of Learn you a Haskell, but didn't quite get into it. 21:28:04 well, I wouldn't call Haskell or Erlang masochistic, though Erlang isn't for faint of the heart, IMHO. Come to think of it, neither is haskell nor common lisp... 21:28:18 Java is masochistic 21:28:27 p_l: :-D 21:29:01 Java is sadistic 21:29:15 Intercal is sadistic. 21:29:22 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229108096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:29:26 kwertii_ [~kwertii@ResNet-33-73.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 21:29:43 Now I have read about common lisp from OnLisp and Essential Lisp, and I am starting to feel I'm beginning to really "get it" and maybe getting something useful done eventually. 21:30:45 peterhil: you had chosen a truly awful combination of books... ok, maybe not so for Essential Lisp, but OnLisp for beginner? Yuck 21:31:08 I have read a couple of old lisp books about ten years ago, and althought it seemed very clever and elegant I didn't try anything with an interpreter and so didn't really get it at all... 21:31:11 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-73.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:31:11 -!- kwertii_ is now known as kwertii 21:31:19 peterhil: I am not sure I understood what you meant by "set a symbol for referencing the values". 21:31:45 peterhil: Also, don't confuse interpretation with interactivity. 21:31:46 peterhil: Graham's coding style is rather bad, try PCL or Gentle Introduction (which use the common idiomatic style of CL source) 21:31:51 p_l: Do you have some better recommendations? 21:31:58 minion: tell peterhil about pcl 21:31:59 peterhil: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:32:03 minion: tell peterhil about gentle 21:32:03 peterhil: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 21:32:46 you will probably get more out of Gentle for now, given your target. It's rather thorough regarding how things work 21:33:10 Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:33:48 (I usually recommend PCL to people who are new but used other languages, as it's similar to books about other languages and allows fast start. Gentle gives more in-depth understanding and is fine book to start learning programming) 21:34:04 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:05 Ok, thanks. I'll take a look on those. Althought my impression about Essential Lisp has been that it explains the concepts in a way I can easily comprehend. 21:34:35 Maybe I try not to get too much influence on that books coding style then... 21:35:37 I am quite familiar with Ruby and Python. 21:35:59 yeah, but Essential Lisp (at least the book I know under that title) uses rather old dialect. 21:36:14 (which shows in your use of setq) 21:36:41 Ok 21:36:53 another good book is PAIP, which you can find in good university libraries 21:36:55 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 21:37:02 minion: paip 21:37:03 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 21:37:05 abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:12 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-234.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 21:37:45 while it's quite old, the language didn't change much from that time and PAIP contains quite a lot of interesting techniques, not only AI 21:38:28 (though in reality, nearly everything other than number crunching, whether business or scientific, somehow tends to have been spearheaded by AI) 21:38:41 What's wrong with setq? Are you saying I talk funny? 21:38:48 rme: no 21:39:07 *rme* laughs 21:39:14 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@32.170.18.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:39:38 setq is used to distinguish old school hackers from novices, so novices shouldn't use it 21:39:45 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:04 it's just that I feel that it's usage at the very beginning of ones lisping career can spell disaster in which someone manages to confuse all of the set forms :D 21:40:10 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:40:22 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:40:40 -!- johanlindberg [~johanlind@81-234-18-19-o286.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:37 I wonder if Maxima's source code fully compiles under CL... I recall it had some land mines due to being much older than CL 21:41:44 What is your opinion about using lisp to do audio dsp? That's why I want to learn lisp now, because it seems some problems I have in my software synthesis project could be solved or at least easily experimented with with lisp. 21:41:48 (and the old code is still there) 21:42:07 p_l: it works with SBCL, so I don't see why not. 21:42:10 peterhil: definitely doable, though you probably will want SBCL 21:42:26 I have it already. And I also found Nyquist 21:42:34 peterhil: hefner has done a couple such projects. 21:42:38 pkhuong: yeah, some of the old parts are system-specific, so they don't get loaded when you compile it... but imagine someone playing too much with copy-paste :P 21:42:46 ... Forwarding pointers. I forgot to check to see if reg_CODE was a forwarding pointer. :-/ 21:42:48 peterhil: Works great for me. I have used it for several things. Nothing real big though, so can't tell you about performance. 21:42:57 (Well, pointed to a forwarding pointer.) 21:43:03 p_l: don't play with it, the code is ugly 21:43:08 pkhuong: look into Maxima's OS interfaces and pathnames support ;D 21:43:15 it's written by mathematicians 21:43:16 it's partially written in Maclisp :D 21:43:27 p_l: Maxima is (should be) completely CL. Mostly portable too, except for a few things like accessing envvars and running shells. 21:44:24 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:26 rtoym: 3~4 years ago when doing project with it I ended up reading source while figuring out best way to hook it to my app... I recall stumbling into ITS Maclisp-compatible code. Was fun :D 21:46:08 p_l: Even 3-4 years ago, it was pretty much CL. That it's Maclisp-like just means CL still supports that aspect of MacLisp. :-) 21:46:15 I wonder if I'll manage to see someone mistakenly try to use those parts in CL program 21:46:23 rtoym: it was actually code to support ITS 21:46:42 *stassats* doesn't understand p_l concerns 21:47:00 stassats: hmm.. I wonder, maybe the heat is getting to me. 21:47:05 ... Might be amusing if someone ported SBCL to ITS. 21:47:06 Oh, the conditionalized stuff. Yeah, a lot of that has been ripped out. But some old stuff (symbolics) still exists. 21:47:42 nyef: someone other than me, I've got enough with my plans to one day sit and try to get SBCL onto VMS 21:47:55 (MVS might be also interesting platform, and actually usable) 21:47:55 Fair enough. 21:48:07 And I'm still having trouble with SBCL on Linux/PPC. 21:48:27 Though I may -finally- have the bug-of-the-day wrapped up. 21:49:21 (Well, hopefully wrapped up. There's no real way to tell that the GC has completely stopped trashing the program counter, link register, or count register by -testing-. 21:49:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-152.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:49:55 nyef: well, you could write a virtual machine, port linux to it, and run sbcl in there (: 21:50:12 and get no PCLSR? 21:50:14 nyef: also, I fear SBCL would need to get much much "smaller" in terms of code size 21:50:30 4MW is not that big 21:51:28 *nyef* screams in frustration. 21:51:37 Once again, "no size function". :-( 21:52:17 nyef: also, SBCL/ITS would require cross compiling, I believe :) 21:52:32 SBCL's source tree wouldn't work with ITS filesystem 21:52:32 *nyef* points out that SBCL was -designed- to cross-compile. 21:52:47 Too deep? 21:52:54 nyef: and too long filenames 21:52:59 Ah. 21:53:10 That's what LPNs are for, surely? :-D 21:53:12 ITS paths have to fit in four words 21:53:13 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:39 (4*36bit = 144 bits) 21:53:43 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #lisp 21:54:08 that's two words for directory name and two words for file name 21:54:35 (24 upper-case letters altogether) 21:55:00 I recall spending weeks looking for "create directory" function, only to find out it's not necessary... 21:55:38 Surely, by now, somebody must have updated ITS to extends this limits a tad. 21:56:14 pjb: no development since 1990, and even then it was in "maintenance only" sort for a decade 21:56:36 good riddance 21:56:37 Otherwise SBCL (any CL program!) should be using logical pathnames. 21:56:51 though someone was suggesting 64bit upgrade to PDP-10 along with 64bit ITS :D 21:57:52 bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:21 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:29 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:01:20 The other book I'm reading is actually called "Successful lisp" by David B. Lamkins and not Essential Lisp. I remembered it wrong because of the name of the 3rd chapter. 22:02:10 right 22:02:15 that one isn't so bad 22:02:23 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:02:26 definitely better choice than On Lisp, IMHO 22:02:33 I also found "Structure and Interpretation of computer programs" because someone recommended it at stackoverflow 22:02:34 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:08 Yes, that is also the book that I found explaining the concepts better, and not OnLisp 22:05:42 SICP is excellent 22:07:25 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:07:45 -!- blandest [~user@109.166.138.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:22 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-47-161.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:10:16 md1 [~user@85-135-142-115.adsl.slovanet.sk] has joined #lisp 22:10:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:11:24 Okay, under what circumstances might reg_CODE not point to a valid lisp object? 22:12:08 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-243-213.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:13:00 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0337.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:13:00 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0337.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 22:13:00 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 22:14:31 Are assembly routines wrapped as code objects? 22:14:46 Yes, but they don't set reg_CODE. 22:15:01 No literals, and can't be moved, so no point. 22:15:21 But even then, it'd still be a valid lisp object. 22:15:47 -!- bigjust`` is now known as bigjust 22:18:07 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:18:37 -!- andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:23:27 Okay, wait. reg_CODE is a boxed register. That's one of the givens. 22:23:54 Therefore, I should first be checking for pointerness if someone's playing sillybuggers. 22:24:09 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:22 wait 22:24:29 you can write inline asm in lisp? 22:24:43 Depends on the implementation. 22:24:53 mit-scheme and clisp, in my case 22:25:06 No clue. 22:25:10 k 22:25:25 but some implementations support that? 22:25:29 Revolve: yes. 22:26:30 I know how to make SBCL accept inline ASM... but not how to get it to do the lifetime bit for such ASM. 22:26:43 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 22:27:29 antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:27:37 -!- antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 22:27:46 ... Hrm. I get the distinct feeling that "lispobj *code = (lispobj *)code;" won't do what I want. 22:28:04 doh (: 22:29:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:29:24 heh, you could do inline asm in ECL, via inline C 22:29:30 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:55 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:34:27 Revolve: clisp doesn't support, no idea about mit-scheme 22:35:08 some lisps have explicitly available "LAP", aka Lisp Assembly Programs - among those are afaik ACL, CCL and CormanCL 22:35:34 Thansks 22:35:45 Thanks* 22:38:36 abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:22 Also, if you're mad, you can always inline assembly in SBCL by using VOPs ;-) 22:39:31 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:39:57 *_3b`* didn't find it too mad last time i tried (not that my attemts were any faster than it could do on its own) 22:40:25 kenpp` [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:40:36 -!- kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:39 p_l: I don't see what's mad about it either... 22:41:03 pkhuong: nah, just the feeling I got when I said something about using VOPs for FFI 22:41:04 Mmm. Sometimes it's even necessary, like if you want to be able to use x86oid I/O ports. 22:41:31 manic12: herep 22:43:48 nyef: well, I did already explain my issues for that. VOPs are definitely less mad than constructing a foreign array and filling it with bytes, then coercing the lisp to call it as a function 22:44:25 -!- peterhil [peterhil@ZMKCCCVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:45:35 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.183] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:45:56 Not that we don't do precisely that for callbacks, just the other way. 22:47:01 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.142.221] has joined #lisp 22:49:44 peterhil [peterhil@YKMCXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:51:23 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:12 hmm in a setf expander, am I right that the accessor (last value) is called at setf time but not otherwise? That for say, (foo-bar) to expand to *foobar* if that's what the accessor does, a macrolet built using get-setf-expander must be used? 22:52:43 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:52:50 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 22:53:16 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:36 homie- [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:54:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:57 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:12 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:30 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 23:01:02 Okay, that's covered as best I can figure out, now I need to look at how funcallable-instances and closures work. :-/ 23:01:21 Can someone explain to me what a hash actually does? 23:01:41 #(1 2 3) or #'some-function 23:02:14 <_3b`> clhs # 23:02:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 23:02:22 <_3b`> clhs #( 23:02:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm 23:02:26 Oh, the reader syntax, not a -hash- hash. 23:02:34 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:43 *_3b`* assumes you can find #' from there 23:02:52 (A hash-function performs dimensionality reduction.) 23:04:57 So it's just a shortcut control character more or less? 23:05:31 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.89.76] has quit [] 23:06:07 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:13 -!- md1 [~user@85-135-142-115.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:05 <_3b`> it is a dispatching macro character 23:07:26 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-47-161.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:28 <_3b`> combined with another character, it selects a reader macro to be used to READ whatever it is after it 23:08:01 <_3b`> some of those reader macros #' for example, are just shortcuts 23:08:18 <_3b`> for FUNCTION in that case 23:09:34 So is the implementation just a bunch of macros that wrap the body? Like (FUNCTION (body)) 23:09:50 <_3b`> of #' you mean? 23:09:57 For example, yea. 23:10:49 <_3b`> reader macros are normal functions, which just happen to be called in specific cases by the reader (the same way macros are normal functions called by the compiler) 23:11:07 Oh I see. 23:11:18 <_3b`> #' probably does something like (list 'function (read)) 23:11:46 Just off the top of your head, how much of a lisp implementation is written in lisp? 23:11:56 <_3b`> (on sbcl it is `(function ,(read stream t nil t)) ) 23:12:01 Quite a bit, some, almost none, none? 23:12:05 <_3b`> depends on the lisp implementation 23:12:24 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:48 SegFaultAX: Probably the average is around quite a bit. 23:12:54 <_3b`> most probably require at least a bit of their runtime implemented in some other languages for talking to a host OS, but might hide that behind a DSL written inlisp 23:12:54 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:13:14 A lot of Common Lisp is really library code, presuambly that's mostly written in Lisp. 23:13:27 Then you have the runtime as _3b` mentions. And the compiler. 23:13:38 The compiler is likely in Lisp. 23:13:51 true, even ECL which uses C has a fair amount of CL code in its source 23:14:10 So is it mostly lisp all the way down to the assemlber runtime? 23:14:20 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:27 Well, the runtime could be written in something higher level than C. 23:14:27 Turtles all the way down so to speak. 23:14:54 There are actual SBCL implementors here who could probably tell you about that implementation specifically. 23:16:22 gigamonkey: Would you say lisp is a hard language to parse/lex compared to something more algol-ish? 23:16:36 gigamonkey: Or less so? 23:16:38 SegFaultAX: depends on your goal. 23:16:47 <_3b`> depends on whether you want to be able to parse things that use the programmable reader or not 23:17:26 SegFaultAX: parsing is easy, transformations are the hard stuff 23:17:30 If you want a clean parse, then yes. For an normal implementation of the reader, it's somewhat simpler. 23:17:38 also, reader macro 23:17:40 *macros 23:17:49 Well actually I meant the more general syntax. Creating s-expressions from code and that. 23:18:11 SegFaultAX: s-exps are incredibly easy to parse. 23:18:26 Reader macros, as was just mentioned, hair things up because at that point you need a full CL implementaton. 23:18:40 gigamonkey: How far are internal s-exp from the lisp itself? 23:18:44 SegFaultAX: S-expressions are simple text format for datastructures made of cons cells 23:18:51 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:54 phadthai: why are you named after a noodle dish? 23:19:06 SegFaultAX: they are what you get after you run reader macros 23:19:35 p_l: Am I right in understanding that a cons cell is essentially an element of a lisp list? 23:19:49 p_l: actually, reader macros return the data structures directly, not text, right? 23:19:51 SegFaultAX: other way around 23:20:01 SegFaultAX: a lisp list is made of cons cells 23:20:45 gigamonkey: thats why I said it when it was called for "internal" Sexps 23:20:54 hefner: :) it just happens to be a dish I enjoy, and I've used that nickname since a long time 23:20:56 soupdragon: ? I meant that a cons is an element of a lisp list, and we call it a cons instead of a element. 23:21:03 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:21:25 SegFaultAX: a cons cell is a pair of two objects (which are either an atom or reference) 23:21:28 SegFaultAX: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 23:21:40 it can be used to build lists and trees easily 23:21:46 Right, it's a pointer to this, and next. 23:22:00 It's a singly linked list, right? 23:22:10 <_3b`> a cons is a cons 23:22:18 And that's the purpose of car and cdr respectively? 23:22:18 <_3b`> lists happen to be made of conses and nil 23:22:25 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-185.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: zzz] 23:22:38 <_3b`> you can use a cons as a 2 element tuple, a binry tree, whatever 23:23:09 <_3b`> you can interpret a binary tree made from conses as a list of binary trees, or a list of lists of lists, etc 23:23:18 SegFaultAX: Gentle introduction has wonderful part on CONS cells and evaluation rules etc. 23:23:27 the purpose of car and cdr is to make people ask "why the hell did they name them car and cdr?" ;) 23:23:34 yeah 23:23:38 heh 23:23:59 and then say that LDQH and LDQ don't sound as fun 23:24:28 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:32 <_3b`> harder to chain those :p 23:24:36 yup 23:25:13 (instruction mnemonics for hypothetical 64bit implementation with 32bit pointers) 23:25:29 Joreji [~thomas@90-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:26:03 *gigamonkey* wonders what effect, if any, the PLT Scheme rename to Racket is having 23:27:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.10] 23:27:27 Thanks for all the information guys. Still working through gigamonkey's book. Again, thank you all. 23:27:42 are they still going forward with the big scheme, little scheme split? 23:27:52 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 23:27:59 bytecolor: dunno. 23:28:04 bytecolor: nope 23:28:23 gigamonkey: racket is going slightly away from typical scheme, I think 23:30:02 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:39 ECL has really shaped up since I tried it last; it just built our web app. ~8kLOC. 23:31:32 with nearly 30 deps 23:31:37 bytecolor: it's split up between many more dialects. Very interesting stuff. 23:32:16 pkhuong: nod, I was keeping track for a while, but I started leaning more and more towards cl. 23:32:46 Call me a dinosaur, but I'm more than happy with most of the Schemes that decided not to track R6RS. 23:33:01 -!- Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-61-149.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:33:44 caoliver, likewise 23:33:47 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:49 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:49 fusss: ... you know, somehow I'm still astonished how 8kLOC makes a whole web app 23:33:51 scheme is one cool language, but it's just too 'wild west' for me 23:33:52 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 23:33:56 damn, too late :) 23:33:58 fusss: ... you know, somehow I'm still astonished how 8kLOC makes a whole web app 23:33:58 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34:10 kinda shows why CL is impressive :) 23:34:13 bytecolor: Wild west? explain! 23:34:24 hey all, what would you recommend to write GUI applications? CLIM seems very interesting but McCLIM seems unmaintained... 23:34:34 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.86.74] has joined #lisp 23:34:36 p_l: macrology 23:34:46 caoliver: I think 'diversity' is the word, but not in a good way ;) 23:34:55 nowhere_man: your favorite gtk binding 23:34:57 nowhere_man: depends on platform 23:35:24 p_l: lambda-gtk is unmaintained, but its code works on win32 and linux 23:35:58 cl-gtk2 afaik is going to support win32 23:35:58 bytecolor: sort of like Lisp pre CL. 23:36:09 Are there web frameworks for lisp similar to django or cakephp? 23:36:22 caoliver: I wasn't programming then, but I can imagine 23:36:49 p_l: do you know of one lisp that works with in on win32? sbcl, ccl and clisp failed for me. 23:36:57 any opinions on cl-gtk and cl-gtk2? 23:38:24 nowhere_man: what platform do you want it for? 23:39:01 Lisp GUIs are broken but lisp graphics libs are awesome; SDL and OpenGL are well supported and more fun 23:39:08 I'm working on Linux/amd64 and Windows XP/x86 23:39:28 nowhere_man: cl-gtk2 is not bad 23:39:36 nowhere_man: do you morally object to dealing with C++ libraries? 23:39:39 You could draw your own in SDL. :P 23:39:52 <_3b`> fusss: OpenGL only looks well supported because you don't know it well yet :p 23:40:03 fusss: cl-gtk2 should be usable with CCL on win32, though it might require some work 23:40:32 nowhere_man: GUIs are strength of commercial implementations 23:40:40 caoliver: would you happen to know of papers on WIMP GUI implementation? i am tempted. 23:40:50 fuck, lost power 23:40:56 ... 23:41:01 fusss: I'd like something as portable as possible and robust, how it's done under the hood matters less 23:41:23 No idea. I'm actually thinking more along the lines of squeak. 23:41:32 wxWindows and Qt have Lisp bindings as well, the qt one i saw recently looked good 23:41:48 ltk is quite portable 23:42:02 At least the Smalltalk sources is there and MIT X11 licensed. 23:42:10 fusss: wxWindows? 23:42:26 I recall only one abortive lib for it 23:42:36 adeht: oh, yeah 23:42:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:52 minion: tell nowhere_man about ltk 23:42:52 nowhere_man: please look at ltk: LTK is a Common Lisp Graphics Toolkit Library for Tk, which provides a complete CLOS binding to the Tk widget set. http://www.cliki.net/ltk 23:43:56 fusss: isn't the Tk GUI the one that looks old and ugly? 23:44:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:16 nowhere_man: if you're determined, you can dig into Tk theming 23:44:18 not that it's bad technically, but if I do a GUI, I reasonnably need it to look good 23:44:44 I'd prefer something shiny out-of-the-box ;-) 23:45:02 nowhere_man: it really depends on your Tk libs and how recent they are 23:45:20 Tk links against Gtk now and looks fresher than it did when it used Lesstif 23:45:42 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 23:46:06 the recent win32 update looks very native http://magicsplat.com/wits/screenshot.png 23:46:32 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:48:52 and FWIW, the Ousterhout book on Tcl/Tk just had a second edition released; back from the dead, I guess 23:49:41 http://www.bin-co.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/tk_screenshot.png :) (yeah, that's not a gtk-linked one :) 23:49:51 <_3b`> does it look native but then behave subtly differently? those are even better than the ones that don't try to look native :p 23:52:48 phadthai: you can tell it's motif by the diamond-shaped radio button and solid-filled arrow element 23:56:57 -!- whr [~user@chello084010174193.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:57:28 -!- peterhil [peterhil@YKMCXXXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:57:40 *fusss* trying to build cl-gtk2 again on win32 23:59:52 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@eth0-2.nmd.four.lax.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]