00:00:01 Thanks Maria for getting me unbanned. I want to learn ANSI CL and CLOS. :-) 00:00:15 don't think me Kevin thank Xach 00:00:24 thanks zack 00:00:38 -!- bigjust`` is now known as bigjust 00:01:16 andreer: That ccl windows fix was also ported to the 1.5 branch. You can update from svn to pick it up. 00:01:50 it looks like I lost my nick.. 00:02:45 KevinD_: Were you klined? 00:03:01 I don't think so. my sis can still get on. 00:03:04 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:06 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:28 if I was k-lines nobody could get on. or can they kline a nick name 00:03:46 oh, that's nice. i really should get that into lispbox. about that other annoyance, i currently use a batch file to start the 32 or 64-bit version, seems to work fine 00:03:50 hi 00:04:04 KevinD_: They could k a specific mask, although they typically don't. 00:04:23 oh. how can I check to see if my nick was klined? 00:04:36 KevinD_: web users were banned because of some abuse earlier. 00:04:36 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:05:04 oh. I got locked out of #() because of that. They told me to come back in 2 weeks. 00:05:22 I guess somebody pissed somebody off or something like that. 00:05:39 ((lambda (x) x x) (lambda (x) x x)) ; the y cominator 00:05:41 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:05:43 Is it bad form to put the first statement of a loop on a new line? Is there a lisp style guide? 00:06:19 CLTL 2 or PAIP by Novig have stuff about Style. 00:06:31 SegFaultAX: there is a lot of decent CL code to read. 00:06:48 SegFaultAX: http://weitz.de/ has a lot of code I'd consider formatted conventionally. 00:07:05 Xach: Well in Python for example we have a specific style guide we try and follow judiciously. 00:07:06 SegFaultAX: depends on how much horizontal space you have left. 00:07:14 Anybody writing an OS in Lisp? 00:07:15 scott__ [~scott@207.204.222.251] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:48 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.17] has joined #lisp 00:07:52 pkhuong: Only on a second level indent. Would you consider it "bad" form in the general case? 00:08:35 SegFaultAX: Emacs with the cl indent function produces conventional formatting almost all the time. 00:09:01 http://sporkcode.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/run-your-own-virtual-lisp-machine/ <-- talks about a Lispy OS ;) 00:09:15 thanks MAslan 00:09:15 Xach: Sorry, vim user here. 00:09:17 thanks sis 00:09:26 EMACS is the best :-) 00:09:39 I try not to engage in holy wars. 00:09:48 SegFaultAX: best to read a lot of code, then, to get a feel for how to line things up. 00:09:50 Use what suites you. 00:09:57 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:11 Xach: Understood, thank you. 00:10:40 any editor is good. use what u like. I hate Micro$haft stuff though. 00:10:57 any free editor is good IMHO :-) 00:11:14 any editor is good as long as one's comfortable with it. 00:11:21 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:40 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:11:54 SegFaultAX: Rob Warnock has some tips for using an editor that doesn't have any particular extra support for Lisp, let me find the link. 00:12:11 SegFaultAX: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 00:12:42 Xach: Thank you so much. I'll grok that in a bit. 00:13:21 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:13:26 My scrollback is failing me, what was the link on the cl macro manpages? 00:13:54 SegFaultAX: for any symbol , you can try http://l1sp.org/cl/, e.g. http://l1sp.org/cl/defmacro 00:14:17 http://l1sp.org/search/macro will do a simple search 00:15:18 *Xach* apparently fails at a memorable domain name 00:15:22 fatblueduck [~chris@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:15:41 hey im looking for the link to an image that was referred to in cll 00:15:56 its an image showing how programmers see themselves 00:16:10 and there are some star trek characters for lisp and forth 00:16:19 and the .net programmer is a hooker 00:16:27 does anyone here know where that image is? 00:16:33 Data is for Lisp and Forth and Prolog :-) 00:16:52 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:16:59 fatblueduck: http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2010/01/how-common-lisp-programmer-views-users.html 00:17:32 Xach: thank yo 00:17:44 -!- KevinD_ [4a2c4d70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.44.77.112] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:18:04 Hm. That's not the one that popped into my mind, but it's pretty neat nevertheless. 8) 00:18:14 KevinDHaX0r [4a2c4d70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.44.77.112] has joined #lisp 00:18:23 Yeah, the other one is pretty funny too. 00:18:26 Hi. I got my nick changed :-) 00:18:42 http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg 00:18:42 I love Lisp Macros they are more powerful then C macros. 00:18:51 KevinDHaX0r: Please stop babbling randomly. 00:18:54 They let u define other language in Lisp.. 00:18:56 sorry. 00:18:58 I liked your other nick better 00:19:04 *Xach* too 00:19:12 do you want me to change it. 00:19:23 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:19:26 KevinDHaX0r: if you want people to think you are a hax0r, putting "hax0r" in your nick is not the best way. 00:19:30 -!- KevinDHaX0r is now known as KevinsBack 00:19:37 changed it. 00:20:05 I'm not sure Ted Kaczynski is a good emblem for Forth, though. O_o 00:21:58 What exactly does it mean to be a dialect of lisp? Is that analogous to saying c like? Or is it extensions of the language or what? 00:22:51 dialect of lisp at minimum prefix notation. data and code same format. 00:23:09 SegFaultAX: there is no single language called "Lisp". There's a not-agreed-upon set of properties or ideas that make a language Lisp-like. You could consider a Lisp-like language a "dialect" of Lisp, I think. 00:23:16 KevinsBack: So using infix instead of prefix? 00:23:22 hadronzoo [~user@75.20.238.206] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 good extras: great macro sysem, extendable 00:23:41 I get my notations mixed up. FUnction comes first and then operands 00:23:50 So in what way is Scheme lets say, a lisp dialect? 00:23:59 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:24:02 (Function Op1 Op2 ... OpN) 00:24:19 It is because it treats programs as data in scheme, and now has macros. 00:24:20 *Xach* doesn't think about such things much, or care 00:24:23 KevinsBack: That'd be prefix notation. 00:24:51 but I don't like to argue about if Common Lisp or Scheme is better; I use both, and they are both better then Java or C 00:24:53 KevinsBack: If the operands come after the operator that is. 00:25:05 I'm rather new to CL. Can anyone recommend a SQLite 3 interface? I'm using SBCL. 00:25:07 SegF: oh. 00:25:18 hadronzoo: The only one I've heard of is in clsql. 00:25:20 Both Lisp and Scheme beat C. 00:25:37 SegFaultAX: there's ANSI CL I guess 00:25:38 Xach: OK, thanks. I'll try using that one. 00:25:40 hadronzoo: elephant 00:25:43 So will CL run in a scheme environment? 00:25:49 SegFaultAX: No. 00:25:55 Why? 00:26:01 I wish they would add call/cc to ansi cl, but I like ansi cl the way it is ... 00:26:11 SegFaultAX: I don't think anyone has implemented something like that. 00:26:38 bougyman: I need to read an existing SQLite DB, so unfortunately the schema is inflexible. 00:26:40 Xach: So the language is different enough that they are incompatible? 00:26:47 SegFaultAX: they are substantially different languages. 00:26:55 Peter Novig wrote a Scheme in Common Lisp -- but I don't know if someone did it the other way around. 00:27:12 Xach: So is it a dialect of lisp then? 00:27:18 asarch [~asarch@189.188.158.185] has joined #lisp 00:28:16 Maybe this is all above my head for right now. I need to actually learn the language first. :) 00:29:01 hadronzoo: FFI and libsqlite3? :> 00:29:36 Odin-: At least, but it would be nice to have a somewhat lispy interface 00:29:54 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 00:29:58 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 00:30:07 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:09 SegFaultAX: I don't really know, sorry. Common Lisp and Scheme are languages defined by their respective standards. They are similar in some ways, but are different in significant, incompatible ways. 00:30:19 hadronzoo: have you considered googling for "common lisp sqlite" and looking at, e.g., the first hit? 00:30:25 I am just learning both scheme and ansi cl but they seem like close cousins like c and C++/java are 00:31:20 pkhuong: I saw a few options, but because I'm new I don't know about the quality of each 00:31:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:31:46 pkhuong: Is this an off-topic question for this channel? 00:32:21 outworlder [~outworlde@187.114.96.89] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 hadronzoo: no. 00:32:43 KevinsBack: Calling Java a cousin of C++ is pretty farfethced IMHO. 00:32:45 hadronzoo: it would show you'd done some homework to say "Which of X, Y, Z would you recommend?", maybe. 00:32:58 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Sleeping machine to test WoL...] 00:33:14 KevinsBack: Maybe a bastard retarded nephew thrice removed. 00:33:28 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:33:30 lol 00:33:38 SegFaultAX: I think this page gives a good summary of the differences: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispSchemeDifferences 00:33:44 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:45 -!- legis [~legis@unaffiliated/legis] has left #lisp 00:33:49 I don't like C++ or Java ;; CLOS blows both C++ and Java out of the water. 00:33:49 Xach: The three I saw were CLSQL, clisp-sqlite, and cl-sqlite 00:33:49 lispm [~lispm@d176208.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 00:34:04 hi Lispm, did u ever use a lisp machine? 00:34:14 andreer: Thank you for the link, bookmarked. 00:34:18 There's only two possibilities on the cliki page that'll work on SBCL. CL-SQLite and CL-SQL. CL-SQL can be a bit weird, but is still widely used. cl-sqlite worked well enough for me when I used it; the documentation was nice, and the design seemed sane. 00:34:26 KevinsBack: he owns at least one. 00:34:27 yes, i have some 00:34:38 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 00:35:16 I know I am asking this prematurely but does CL have a concept of continuations and monads? 00:35:17 cool. is a 3620 or XL1201 00:35:47 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-205.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:51 I have read quite a bit on those particular constructs, and they fascinate me. 00:35:52 pkhuong: cl-sqlite looks like exactly what I need (I don't need to interface with any other engines). Thanks 00:35:59 a 3640, three Macivory, a nxp1000, and a non working xl1200 00:36:27 I own a MacIvory but the Mac crashed :-( 00:36:36 TR2N [email@89-180-179-16.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 00:36:37 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:41 I used to own a 3620 but I got rid of it when it broke. 00:36:48 Now I use LispWorks for WinXP 00:36:50 *lispm* used Macs are not that expensive 00:37:03 SegFaultAX: monads (for programmers) are basically a design pattern, so yes. CL doesn't have first-class continuations, but there are libraries that offer various sorts of continuations, more or less transparently. 00:37:27 I want to extend my LispWorks to turn it into a Lisp OS for a PC 00:37:46 pkhuong: Are continuations more popular in haskell? 00:37:50 KevinsBack: why LispWorks? 00:38:40 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 00:38:59 outworlder: Allegro CL was too expensive for me. 00:39:00 SegFaultAX: less so, if anything, since monads offer a more principled (read, not as gratuitously powerful) way to implement much of the functionality continuations are used for (e.g. backtracking search or exceptions). 00:39:00 -!- Edward_ [edward@ARennes-299-1-89-165.w92-159.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:39:27 KevinsBack: what about something like sbcl? or is it a commercial project? 00:39:59 don't forget Movitz 00:40:17 outworlder: I don't see how sbcl is incompatible with commercial projects. 00:41:35 pkhuong: it is the other way around actually. he is doing it in lispworks for some reason. I assumed a project like an OS would need contributors, unless he's got massive funding 00:42:36 with SBCL you get the source and with LispWorks not 00:42:58 I want to do an Open source lisp OS. 00:43:09 or get one started at least. 00:43:15 many people wanted to do that 00:43:36 Movitz is one 00:43:43 lispm: is Movitz in an usable state? 00:44:05 I have no idea what is usable for you 00:45:10 I'd recommend forgetting the OS idea and start hacking with SBCL (or similar) 00:45:18 does it boot into an interactive repl with full CL, able to use a filesystem, network support? 00:46:09 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:46:26 what's there is pretty barebones, but it should not be too difficult to try it out 00:46:38 well, for what is worth there is almost a lisp "OS" 00:46:59 or a emacs lisp one, that is 00:47:02 scsh would make a good lispy os, I use it for IRC bots. 00:47:58 When do you not need to close a #' with a traling '? 00:48:50 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-55-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:48:56 abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:04 SegFaultAX: #' is not part of a balanced set of 's 00:49:07 ... why would you ever need to "close" a #' with a subsequent ' ? 00:49:19 SegFaultAX: #' is reader syntax for (FUNCTION ) 00:49:20 Oh it's not? 00:49:43 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:49:46 -!- calardin [~user@unaffiliated/calardin] has left #lisp 00:49:58 Did I miss something here: (remove-if-not #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) 00:50:15 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-64-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:15 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-190.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:34 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:34 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:50:34 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:50:58 What is that second ' doing? 00:51:12 SegFaultAX: it is quoting the list 00:51:24 SegFaultAX: ' is reader syntax for (QUOTE ) 00:51:43 SegFaultAX: otherwise you would try to call a function called 1 with the args 2..10 00:51:45 tama [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-190.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:47 SegFaultAX: that form would read as (REMOVE-IF-NOT (FUNCTION EVENP) (QUOTE (1 2 3 4 5 ...))) 00:51:48 What does quoting do? 00:51:48 abend [~alx@76.76.146.16] has joined #lisp 00:51:56 Ohhh. 00:52:02 SegFaultAX: I suggest reading a good book. It'll cover this on page 0 or 1. 00:52:30 -!- coyo|pingout [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-190.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:52:46 Should I take that to mean that practical common lisp is not a good book? 00:53:13 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:53:14 if you talk to Lisp it thinks that data is code, quote then makes Lisp think data is data 00:53:25 I see. 00:53:43 So then arguments passed to macros are automatically quoted? 00:54:12 no 00:54:23 arguments are not passed to macros 00:54:26 SegFaultAX: I'd read that to mean that you should read PCL better; the chapter about macros might be a good place to look for an explanation of how macros work. 00:54:53 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-190.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:55:00 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.158.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:16 macros get source code and generate new source code, that new source code picks up the arguments (or not) 00:55:20 pkhuong: Well I am following what the author writes, but he doesn't explain syntax sometimes. 00:55:29 there are some more basic books as PCL 00:56:04 Touretzky, what's it called? 00:56:05 I'll just shut up and type what he gives me without question. :) 00:56:32 Gentle introduction to symbolic computation 00:58:52 Principles of Arificial Intelligence Programming by Peter Novig is a good book about ANSI CL. 00:59:19 Good night 00:59:19 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.135.78] has left #lisp 00:59:26 but more advanced 01:00:04 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:00:32 PAIP is a good book to learn about how to do AI in Lisp. 01:00:50 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:00:50 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 01:00:59 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:01:53 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 01:01:54 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 01:01:54 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 01:01:58 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 01:02:21 most of the AI stuff in PAIP is pretty old-fashioned and relatively basic 01:04:21 The AI problems is PAIP were fairly old even when the book was written, but they provide a good vehicle for demonstrating the application of CL to real problems. (And Norvig's CL style is good.) 01:04:43 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:00 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:05:07 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:05:27 and some of his code examples were reused by others: Prolog and Scheme implementation for example 01:06:19 nice. 01:06:38 great way to learn AI and Lisp, I will get it for Kevin. 01:06:50 -!- Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:06:54 Thanls sis 01:07:15 *Thanks 01:10:03 -!- lispm [~lispm@d176208.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:17 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-253-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:11:04 -!- hadronzoo [~user@75.20.238.206] has left #lisp 01:12:27 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-75-20-238-206.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:09 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:24:21 cl-sqlite is working perfectly by the way, thanks. ASDF is impressive. 01:25:57 it's an impressive something all right 01:26:17 :) 01:26:18 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:29:12 Ooh. The neighbors to the back of the house are letting off fireworks. Just over the tree line, and perfectly in line from my seat, through the window, to the display. 01:30:26 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:31:25 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.17] has joined #lisp 01:34:44 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:53 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:55 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:37:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:49 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:46:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.78.227] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:46:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:48:20 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-253-204.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 01:48:54 -!- tama [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-190.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 01:49:48 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:50:40 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:51:54 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:52 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:53:00 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-190.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:20 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:56:36 -!- KevinsBack [4a2c4d70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.44.77.112] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:56:36 -!- MAslan2010 [~chatzilla@74-44-77-112.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [K-Lined] 02:00:32 does sbcl not use utf-16 ? 02:00:37 on windows ? 02:01:13 it can. It's probably not the default. 02:05:06 Almost certainly not the default. 02:05:53 *nyef* remembers hand-encoding a utf-16 / ucs-2 string in a (simple-vector (unsigned-byte 16)) once. 02:07:04 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:39 now that we have utf-16{le,be} external formats, there are easier ways. 02:08:13 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:11:26 Sure. But we didn't back then. 02:20:06 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:21:32 -!- via [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:21:58 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:21:58 jvia [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:03 Encoding utf-16 shouldn't be hard, unless you have characters outside the BMP. 02:24:42 asarch [~asarch@189.188.158.185] has joined #lisp 02:26:04 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27:28 Okay, I need sleep. 02:27:32 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:29:00 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:30:40 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:31:06 Snamich [~Snamich@166.189.101.119] has joined #lisp 02:33:17 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.158.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:47 legis [~legis@unaffiliated/legis] has joined #lisp 02:35:23 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:37:17 asarch [~asarch@189.188.158.185] has joined #lisp 02:37:32 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 02:41:36 thaostra [~joshua@71.168.114.217] has joined #lisp 02:41:37 brett_h [~brett@99-12-194-0.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:49 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 02:42:37 -!- outworlder [~outworlde@187.114.96.89] has quit [Quit: outworlder] 02:43:23 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:24 aperture [~aperture@fl-74-4-63-25.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:37 hello. 02:49:41 M_Lion [439f2c33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.159.44.51] has joined #lisp 02:50:12 Hi. 02:52:33 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:40 What types of Lisp are there? I've heard of common lisp, but what is the best for a beginner (one who knows only Python)? 02:53:54 maybe scheme 02:53:55 Common Lisp or Scheme. You can do more industrial stuff with Common Lisp, and Scheme is more of an academic language. Both are good, and worth learning. 02:53:55 -!- M_Lion [439f2c33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.159.44.51] has left #lisp 02:54:49 Thank you. 02:55:16 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-151-225.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:54 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.249] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:59:03 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-151-225.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:59:21 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:02:06 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@174-30-74-223.desm.qwest.net] has left #lisp 03:03:07 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:05:19 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-164.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:10 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qozizqiieebissom] has joined #lisp 03:09:24 -!- asarch 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03:44:48 pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.201] has joined #lisp 03:45:48 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-121-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:45 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:49:56 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 03:50:16 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:50:54 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 03:57:47 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:02:37 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 04:02:42 hello 04:04:19 hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:10:04 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:11:23 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:12:08 mrk00lnerd [5f9ae6fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.154.230.252] has joined #lisp 04:13:10 hi 04:13:10 -!- mrk00lnerd [5f9ae6fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.154.230.252] has quit [Client Quit] 04:13:44 -!- Fare 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[~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:06 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qozizqiieebissom] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mupothjwkzjpnqgm] has joined #lisp 04:59:45 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:24 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.158.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:59 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 05:01:58 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:37 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:28 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:04:48 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B827.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:12 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-233-190.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:08:29 if there's a macro such as (defmacro foo (x) x), why does (foo g), and (foo 'g) produce different results, assuming g bound to 5, let's say? if the macro doesn't evaluate it's arguments, should they both return 5 as the result? 05:08:33 -!- mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:08:33 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kivbcyutliugtmps] has joined #lisp 05:10:00 I suggest that you try (defmacro foo (x) (print x)) for more enlighenment. 05:13:49 ok, i think i understand. 05:19:01 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-84-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:21:04 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:24:12 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-178.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:26:17 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26:33 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:28:43 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-3-84.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 05:31:25 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has 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[~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:00:33 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@AMontsouris-158-1-2-138.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:37 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:08:07 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:51 Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:15:20 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:15 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:46 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 10:19:04 dfox [~dfox@rb5cd235.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 10:19:07 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-142-164.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:35 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-254-231.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:57 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-151-225.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:01 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:21:43 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-193-44.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:22:21 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:26:23 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn341.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 10:26:38 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:32:35 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:35 Blkt [~user@160.80.129.224] has joined #lisp 10:36:52 aplanas [~aplanas@169.Red-80-39-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:15 -!- aplanas [~aplanas@169.Red-80-39-174.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 10:38:20 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:09 good day everyone 10:39:27 *Xach* feels the excitement again 10:40:44 *antifuchs* is abuzz 10:42:07 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-22.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:42:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:06 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 10:44:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:28 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:29 plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:45:34 Good afternoon! 10:46:09 hi plage 10:46:11 Sunshineeeeeeee! 10:49:19 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.129.224] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t] 10:53:50 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:54:15 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:54:19 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 10:55:39 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7566ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:05 -!- dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [Ping 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Quit] 11:11:39 dabd [~dabd@gtkdbio.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 11:12:42 -!- dabd [~dabd@gtkdbio.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12:48 dabd [~dabd@gtkdbio.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 11:17:32 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.20] has joined #lisp 11:19:01 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:19:37 relcomp [~chatzilla@195.37.186.62] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:22:44 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-36-219.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:22:49 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 11:26:48 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:27:37 asarch [~asarch@187.132.139.75] has joined #lisp 11:32:23 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.139.75] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:52 tic: around? 11:38:07 tic: Do most universities in Sweden teach in English these days? What about science and technology? What about neigboring countries? 11:43:59 hello plage 11:44:06 hey mvilleneuve 11:44:26 in norway, from my own experience, most (if not all) material is in english, but lectures are mostly (but not all) in norwegian 11:44:44 andreer: OK, thanks! 11:45:41 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:11 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 11:46:46 plage: depends on what kind of course we are talking about. all master degree courses are in english at chalmers university at least. 11:47:30 hypno: What do you mean by "master degree courses"? Does that include first-year courses? 11:48:05 plage: well, "all" as in "all i've had". ;)... however, most (if not all) other courses the first 3 years are in swedish. 11:49:03 plage: you have 3 years as an undergraduate. those 3 years are for bachelor degree and is taught mainly in swedish. another 2 years for a master degree, and those are taught in english (since some applicants come from other countries) 11:49:27 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-117-225.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:58 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Client Quit] 11:52:44 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:59:32 hypno: Got it! 12:01:01 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:06 plage: this applies for most studies at chalmers only tho. it may very well be different at say KTH, but those are a bunch of sad sissies anyway. 12:07:59 -!- plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:37 -!- peddie__ [~peddie@adsl-99-60-3-15.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:18 peddie__ [~peddie@99-27-201-7.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:50 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:01 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:28 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:21:00 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-114-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 12:21:39 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 12:29:44 abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:55 -!- dfox [~dfox@rb5cd235.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:43:33 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:20 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-56-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:50:54 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:47 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-114-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:20 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-55-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:53:57 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-98-110-225-6.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:56:49 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.153.129] has joined #lisp 12:58:47 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn341.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 12:58:50 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:00:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:45 Hmm, for this gist: https://gist.github.com/9b4165fffaa8c7fe2cb0 I am trying to basically set an alist in the following type of format (defvar *commands* '((title . 5) (description . 8) ...)), and later on in my main function, I do a (loop for x in *commands* do (define-card-command (first x))), and noticed that the macro in the gist doesn't really take the first element of the list, x. It tries to define something like 13:01:45 |GET-CARD-(FIRST X)|, which well..isn't the way I want to go. I could just take the first of x, assign it through a let binding and pass it that way, but kinda curious..shouldn't everhthing between ,(...) be evaluated? 13:01:51 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:03:21 TDT: macros take source code and return source code. you are passing define-card-command the code (FIRST X), not the value of (FIRST X) at runtime. 13:03:49 TDT: if you want to define a bunch of things based on some data, you could use a macrolet. 13:04:20 Xach: Ah ok, I haven't used macrolet so I'll go that route just to get some experience at that. Thanks, I'll read up on it 13:04:58 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:07:43 Or add a functional layer underneath your macros 13:08:36 Depends on how static the data is :-) 13:09:15 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-135-237.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:10:06 Was just discussing with my colleage: Why is (elt 0 lst) called (first lst) and not (zeroth lst)? 13:10:13 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.131.114] has quit [] 13:10:56 I'd argue because it's technically the first item, but element 0 is still the first item. First doesn't need to mean 1 :) 13:11:03 relcomp: FIRST is an english word. It also happens to return the first element in the list. 13:11:22 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-179-217.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:11:28 relcomp: It's even worse: (nth 1 list) == (second list) 13:12:11 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:13:04 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:14:17 (defun english-nth (pos lst) (nth (1- pos) lst)) ? 13:14:59 and the Interlisp nth was a 1-based nthcdr... 13:15:40 relcomp: why do you link English with 1-based indexing? 13:15:41 splittist: Is Interlisp the historical source of first ... ? 13:16:17 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.153.129] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 13:16:25 adeht: that was addressed to pkhuong -- a joke. 13:17:12 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kivbcyutliugtmps] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:17:12 oh, let's not have this argument :P 13:17:22 it's largely a preference thing 13:19:07 relcomp: I don't think so. I suspect a million independent implmentations where thinking in 'English' it's natural to have FIRST SECOND etc, but not natural to have ZEROTH, but when generalising the programmer starts to think in 'Programmerish' where 0-indexing is common and convenient. /amateur-psychology 13:21:26 imagine disclaiming marks around all uses of 'natural' above. 13:21:52 rsynnott: it's wholly a preference thing, but preferences aren't always arbitrary 13:22:07 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:22:35 adeht: oh, there WERE definitely good reasons for the zero-based thing. Still are, at a very low level 13:23:06 splittist: That makes sense. 13:24:57 rsynnot: Yes, for example (nthdcr 0 lst) => lst. 13:25:31 #'cr == #'identity ;) 13:25:51 ? 13:27:18 rsynnott: like having an additional trap for undergrads who must implement heapsort? ;) 13:27:59 tayloj [~tayloj@indigo-15.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 13:29:39 jasonx [jasonx@93-138-79-15.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:31:52 If you're an undergrad who has to implement heapsort, you're already trapped... 13:33:03 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.102.74] has joined #lisp 13:33:03 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.102.74] has quit [Changing host] 13:33:03 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:34:16 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-155-215-188.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:27 fiveop [~fiveop@g229077004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7566ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:02 fcky [~Usuario57@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 13:42:05 hello 13:42:07 is any modern software written in lisp? 13:42:30 fcky: Gavino? 13:42:50 fcky: Yes. 13:43:14 can you list a couple? in what area is it used most commonly? I'm googling on gavino 13:43:31 fcky: Gavino is a troll who asks questions like that. 13:43:53 fcky: What would qualify a project as "modern" to you? 13:44:12 I'm not a troll I'm genuinely interested. is lisp still used today? 13:44:23 Xach in last couple of years 13:44:41 fcky: Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language that can be used for pretty much anything. 13:44:43 fcky: Google the international lisp game expo, there's a bit of a contest where you can test some lisp games :) 13:44:44 fcky: Yeah, but then I guess even COBOL is still used today 13:44:49 obviously, software written since the 1500s 13:45:02 fcky: http://postabon.com/ is a CL-powered web application. 13:45:04 tcr I meant projects started in the last couple of years 13:45:38 fcky: Common Lisp has a live an kicking open source and commercial community, if it's that what you're looking for 13:45:55 fcky: InspireData is a recent end-user desktop CL application. 13:46:18 http://www.medialab.com/sitegrinder3/ is a CL-powered photoshop plugin 13:46:24 fcky: I'm part of a company founded in the beginning of 2010, we use Common Lisp 13:46:50 tcr: I wish there were companies like that in Iowa :) 13:48:05 fcky: Now that you know it is still used, what will you decide based on that knowledge? 13:48:10 ok thanks for your answers. is there any other area where lisp is more commonly used, instead of desktop apps? 13:48:30 We use it for tcp/ip optimization for mobile broadband 13:48:33 just trying to figure out where lisp is at ATM 13:48:55 as xach said, it's a general purpose language and can be used for web, desktop apps, and so on. 13:49:10 *Xach* uses it to generate graphics files at http://wigflip.com/ 13:49:44 I use it to parse and accumulate link statistics from twitter 13:50:05 why isn't it used nearly as often than as say C++ or Java? it seems to be a lot more powerful 13:50:40 fcky: That's a bit like "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" 13:50:50 Power is a relative term, but there was a really good article that talks about the C/C++ side of things. 13:50:51 well, it's probably used for webapps more than C++ is, anyway ;) 13:51:04 fcky: It's mostly there where it was 20-10 years back, used by a small but insistent community; its open source world grew considerably since then though 13:52:02 fcky: Maybe because such decision is often not made by the technically most competent people 13:52:04 Why do more people eat at McDonald's than The Fat Duck? Is there, or is there not, a spoon? 13:52:17 why isn't Mozart heard nearly as often as say Britney Spears or Lady Gaga? 13:52:32 adeht: too many notes! 13:52:58 fcky: The question you should ask is, "What can learning Common Lisp do good for me?"; and the answer to that is, I'm prett certain, a whole lot 13:53:33 adeht not sure if that's a valid analogy. shouldn't programers prefer to use the tool that makes their life easier? 13:53:33 Depends on you background of course, but given the kind of questions you ask, I'm pretty certain it will make you become a better programmer 13:53:45 Can you afford NOT to learn CL? 13:54:04 fcky: you seem to assume that they are aware of all the alternatives 13:54:13 I am learning it, I'm impressed with it. just puzzled why it seems to be so unused relative to other languages 13:54:51 fcky: There's a bit of history behind that 13:54:52 hmm, I can't find that article on "Good Enough Software" which focused heavily on lisp in the discussion. was quite good. 13:54:53 because brackets are terribly frightning 13:55:02 fcky: and that they make their decisions based on technical arguments 13:55:33 the correlation between popularity and 'goodness' is a complex one. see e.g. Mao, Stalin 13:55:35 fcky: It has been used pretty wide-spread in the AI community throughout the late 70s and 80s, but that industry overpromised, and failed, and the failure was partially if not largely attributed to Lis 13:56:08 My hypothesis is that interop and collaboration are more important that a language "power" 13:56:12 Or maybe that's exaggereted, any way it made it smell funny 13:57:02 pkhuong: Important for what? 13:57:13 decision parameters. 13:57:32 tcr: yes, I've heard and even used that argument, but all that seems to remain of that era in the popular imagination is the idea that lispers are smug, but that lisp (or LISP) has some mysterious power 13:57:40 (one out of two...) 13:58:45 -!- Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 13:58:54 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 13:59:16 pkhuong: assuming a non-piano.aero context... 13:59:32 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-114-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:59:56 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:03:53 -!- bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has left #lisp 14:04:55 fcky: personally I conjecture that the choice of a programming language is usually _not_ done by the programmer.. it is done by management people (in the industry or university) who hear about this or that new language being promoted by a big company or used in another company.. the people who learn programming usually begin their study with a popular language (or after a bit, two) and hang on to it until the fad is over and they are 14:04:55 "outdated" 14:05:12 Grue` [~grue@188.16.86.80] has joined #lisp 14:05:33 -!- Grue` [~grue@188.16.86.80] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:37 -!- ski [~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:06:40 adeht yeah that's probably true 14:08:19 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:10:15 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 14:10:57 -!- Tanami [~rlynow@150.101.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:11:14 splittist: the mysterious power myth is incredibly hard to bust 14:11:34 antifuchs: I do my best (: 14:11:37 splittist: I find it almost easier to disprove that I'm not smug (: 14:11:39 dlowe1 [~dlowe@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:41 wait 14:11:50 or that I'm good at double negations 14:12:32 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:53 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:17 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:52 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:59 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:33 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 longkid [~longkid@58.186.132.127] has joined #lisp 14:16:58 hello all 14:16:58 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-155-215-188.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:17:31 How can I get the pathname of my source file? 14:18:57 *load-pathname*, *load-truename* 14:18:57 clhs *load-truename* 14:18:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm 14:19:15 if you mean at load-time, of course 14:19:31 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-121-52.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:20:35 Yes, I want to get pathname of .lisp at load-time 14:24:52 specbot: clhs *load-pathname* 14:24:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm 14:24:57 jtza8 [~AndChat@41.56.54.50] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 Was just testing... 14:28:08 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:28:16 christop` [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:47 gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:43 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:16 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:00 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@41.56.54.50] has quit [Quit: Bye] 14:33:25 FareWell [~Fare@wsip-70-164-182-189.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:51 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:35:02 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:38:09 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:15 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit 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has joined #lisp 15:02:19 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 15:05:35 -!- FareWell [~Fare@wsip-70-164-182-189.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:36 (string-downcase (symbol-name 'good-morning)) 15:10:30 manic12: sloppy. no need for symbol-name. 15:10:56 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:11:29 wow, you learn something new every day 15:14:15 all before 8:15 am too 15:14:44 *Xach* lives to serve 15:16:09 -!- abend [~alx@76.76.146.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:16 -!- fcky [~Usuario57@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 15:22:04 jvia [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:44 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:34 (concatenate 'string 'Thanks " " 'Xach) 15:23:42 er um 15:23:52 dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:52 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:53 -!- dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 15:24:02 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@195.37.186.62] has left #lisp 15:24:22 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 15:24:25 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 15:24:44 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:13 -!- longkid [~longkid@58.186.132.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:25:39 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:50 varjag [~eugene@243.196.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:29:08 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:28 when the messiah comes to unite the israeli jews and the palestinians do you think he'll have time for the ansi vs modern mode disagreement? 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srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:57 *Xach* finds himself wishing slime would prevent him from defining (t t) print-object methods 16:55:33 slimy, the helpful slime assistant, could say "It looks like you are trying to define a print-object method for a specific class. Would you like some help?" 16:55:43 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:57:42 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:00:37 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:03:11 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:05:07 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:33 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 17:10:10 sounds more like some MOP magic 17:12:28 Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 succumb to the temptation and use (def print-object (princ )) from this point on! 17:12:46 Or PCL tweaks. Aren't print-object methods restricted by the standard? 17:18:39 only for standardized classes, in practise you can even overwrite those modulo package locks 17:19:07 tcr: and what's the status of T in that? 17:20:05 -!- splittist [~David@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: T for 2] 17:21:34 Oh good call, why doesn't sbcl signal a package lock violation? 17:21:54 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-gclppnihjuamfacj] has left #lisp 17:22:08 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-gclppnihjuamfacj] has joined #lisp 17:22:27 *Xach* feels his wishes coming true 17:24:04 outworlder [~stephen@189.90.170.251] has joined #lisp 17:24:22 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has left #lisp 17:24:49 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 rme: ping 17:25:58 fe[nl]ix: here 17:26:21 I'd ask Xof about that 17:27:07 rme: require doesn't find tools/asdf.lx32fsl 17:27:13 is it a bug ? 17:28:38 "lx32fsl"? 17:28:44 rme: using 1.6-dev-r13940M-trunk 17:29:09 fe[nl]ix: does it find tools/asdf.lisp? (require 'asdf) certainly should work. 17:29:22 nyef: ccl/Linux/x86 17:29:44 So, ccl/linux/ppc would be...? 17:29:53 "lp32fsl" or "lp64fsl"? 17:30:16 nyef: lx64fsl 17:30:35 rme: nope 17:30:37 ccl/linux/ppc32 is .pfsl actually 17:30:40 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:00 Is there a ccl/linux/ppc64? 17:31:16 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 17:31:16 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 17:31:16 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:31:19 yes, .p64fsl 17:31:28 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-193-44.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:31:40 (CCL::MODULE-PROVIDE-SEARCH-PATH :asdf) => NIL 17:31:48 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.78.227] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:32:11 $CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY points to the correct directory 17:32:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 17:32:47 oh 17:32:55 if I unset it, it works 17:32:58 hmmm 17:33:01 ? 17:33:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:34:07 It's sometimes useful to do (probe-file "ccl:") 17:36:08 oops, my fault 17:36:21 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.79.59] has joined #lisp 17:36:23 I can't even remember why I set $CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY in the first place 17:36:23 By default, the ccl: logical host will refer to the directory containing the image file. 17:36:44 oh, right 17:36:55 I save images in a different directory 17:36:59 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:37:13 -!- revel0__ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:37:23 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 17:38:25 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 17:39:15 rme: thanks :) 17:39:33 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.249.218] has joined #lisp 17:40:41 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:52 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:13 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 17:50:26 Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.164.193] has joined #lisp 17:54:47 Uhm, variables defined in a package can simply be reached with :packagename:variablename ?? 17:56:14 packagename:variablename 17:56:45 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-192-64.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:03 tayloj [~tayloj@indigo-15.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 17:58:31 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:59:23 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441126.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 17:59:47 Lis: packages deal with symbol management. 17:59:56 packagename::variablename, unless it's exported 18:01:21 -!- Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:05:11 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 18:12:18 pkhuong, universities teach in English in the higher levels, i.e. Master and up. 18:12:25 err, plage 18:13:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:13:17 tic: plage is fast asleep in his chair right now, and gone. 18:13:34 minion, memo for plage: universities teach in English in the higher levels i.e. Master and up. When I studied, most, but not all classes were in English in the last few years. Don't know about the now Bologna system. 18:13:34 Remembered. I'll tell plage when he/she/it next speaks. 18:13:46 Xach, got him nearby? :-) 18:15:17 mpr312 [~chatzilla@pool-74-101-147-57.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:52 What am I doing wrong here: http://codepad.org/JasWpUNY 18:16:21 carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.177] has joined #lisp 18:17:41 Lis: not paying attention to the answers to your earlier question. 18:17:59 hm 18:18:06 Lis: :modecl::GET should not have a : in front. 18:18:32 yes. But the last line is without the prefixed : and returns NIL 18:19:46 Lis: the symbol used as the key is modecl::testkey, and you're trying to look up cl-user::testkey. 18:20:11 ah 18:20:27 Lis: also, while it doesn't matter on ccl, DEFPACKAGE with no :use option will not necessarily define a package that uses the CL package. 18:20:37 yaaaa. thanks Xach :D 18:23:02 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:38 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-gclppnihjuamfacj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:18 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:45 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:34:22 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:05 -!- dabd [~dabd@gtkdbio.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:36:40 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B7C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:36 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082CE21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:44:39 md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 18:47:00 md1` [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 18:50:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:55 -!- md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:11 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:04 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 18:53:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:31 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:06 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:56:23 moah [~gnu@188.109.145.248] has joined #lisp 18:57:11 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:01 rpx__ [~rpx@9-36.4-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:58:15 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-192-64.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:59 Hi, if I want to read in a bunch of floats from a binary file. Should I still use (with-open-file ..... :element-type '(unsigned 8)) 18:59:18 Sorry '(unsigned-byte 8) 19:00:02 rpx__: that'd be a decent first step. 19:01:19 Xarch: but then I do not understand how I can read in floats with read-byte 19:01:30 *nyef* 's bag of tricks includes loading a simple-vector (unsigned-byte 8) of a suitable size, then holding the GC at bay while he reaches out and smacks the in-memory representation into an array of whatever other type he wants. 19:02:12 you could also do something like that with the FFI. 19:02:26 rpx__: there are several libraries for that purpose 19:02:48 rpx__: one is called ieee-floats, another is called ie3fp 19:03:07 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:03:07 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 19:03:10 Xarch: alright, thanks a lot. 19:03:22 Xach: I will look into it 19:03:27 *Xach* wonders why europeans sometimes misspell his nick as Xarch 19:03:46 Xach: because I think about architecture 19:03:57 Funny keyboard layouts, maybe? 19:04:11 Xach: but sorry, I will try to spell it correctly in the future 19:04:35 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:48 nyef: Some days I switch between American, French and Swedish,, it messes with ones head 19:04:49 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 19:05:53 anyway, thanks a lot for all helps. I wish you all a great day 19:06:10 time to read about ieee-floats 19:06:17 -!- rpx__ [~rpx@9-36.4-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:06:20 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:20 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:21 oconnore [~oconnore@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 19:10:13 rpx_: http://repo.or.cz/w/gsll.git/blob/8c2cd8a64d8f21331cb71c9e1b386cb3582d6d99:/floating-point/floating-point.lisp 19:10:38 This seems to be something that gets reinvented fairly often. 19:11:03 -!- md1` [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:43 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:12:56 WoodenBoy [~WoodenBoy@87-194-114-233.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:32 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:16:57 -!- oconnore [~oconnore@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:20:06 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:46 francogrex [~user@109.130.71.73] has joined #lisp 19:23:13 LispX [4a3f7089@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.63.112.137] has joined #lisp 19:23:38 (format t "~,3F" "16.23") how to get use the 16.23 value for this? 19:23:57 lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:08 ... you want to READ-FROM-STRING, perhaps? 19:24:16 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:16 hi 19:24:22 hi LispX 19:24:53 how r u? 19:25:27 -!- lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:30 lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:40 gr8 19:26:50 LispX: bit sore. 19:27:38 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 19:28:22 -!- LispX is now known as WoW42 19:29:03 anybody use LispWorks? 19:30:14 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:30:33 WoW42: i use it tiny bit. a lot of helpful lispworks users hang out on the mailing list. 19:30:41 WoW42: they are quite friendly and nice. 19:31:17 cool. 19:32:00 are you using LispWorks? 19:33:47 nyef: sure thanks 19:34:05 gonzojive_ [~red@adsl-76-204-79-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:12 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.212] has joined #lisp 19:34:17 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:34:47 -!- lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:36:26 I cannot figure out what advantage :PRESERVE-WHITESPACE confers to that function 19:36:51 clhs read-preserving-whitespace 19:36:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 19:37:00 it says: specifies whether to leave the character next to the object's representation 19:37:49 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:37:56 There's some specific use for it, but I forget what. 19:39:25 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:50 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 19:40:56 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3136674082163215@naggum.no.html is the only use in the naggum archive 19:41:17 -!- WoW42 is now known as MAslan2010 19:41:47 -!- MAslan2010 is now known as Guest12530 19:42:27 well, it seems I can live without the PRESERVE-WHITESPACE key 19:43:12 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:44:17 hi 19:44:51 -!- Guest12530 [4a3f7089@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.63.112.137] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:46:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:47:33 hey 19:47:51 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:51:53 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:54:36 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:54:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:55:06 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:12 m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:54 hugod [~hugod@h237.six.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:49 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.71.73] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:12:00 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:49 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-135.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:15:42 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 20:20:36 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:22:04 -!- hugod [~hugod@h237.six.net] has quit [Quit: hugod] 20:23:24 Phaedrus_ [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:06 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:24:06 symbole [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:24 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:52 -!- Phaedrus_ [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:09 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-239-154.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 20:25:39 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:55 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:00 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:33:02 dfox [~dfox@rb5cd235.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:33:37 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:34:34 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:37:25 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.164.193] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 20:41:35 mindCrime [~chatzilla@12.155.80.90] has joined #lisp 20:42:20 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:43:25 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:42 I am pary way through Practical Common Lisp, but I have one quick question. Does CL have a concept of OOP or is there an equiv or is it just completely different? 20:43:52 Part way* 20:44:14 it has OOP 20:44:23 and more! 20:45:44 Ok, cool. Continuing on with this wonderful book... Thank you for the speedy reply! 20:46:09 and PCL has chapters about it 20:46:52 SegFaultAX: the OOP section might be a bit confusing at first, but read it 5 more times, and you'll get it. 20:46:54 stassats: TBO I have just been going chapter to chapter in order, not really browsing the contents. 20:47:11 stassats: The table of contents I mean. 20:47:31 stassats: So I don't really know what's in store for me, which makes it more exciting. 20:47:53 keep on reading! 20:48:03 symbole: I'll go into it with an open mind. Plus I have this wonderful community to support me :) 20:48:05 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-46-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:21 I feel more and more my imperative mind is being replaced. 20:48:23 minion: Keene? 20:48:24 Keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/Keene 20:48:30 15+ years rewired in 2 days. 20:48:37 i really understood CLOS after reading this book 20:48:56 minion: logs 20:48:57 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 20:49:13 apropos rewired, SegFaultAX, did you read sicp? 20:49:19 stassats: CLOS? 20:49:23 Why, oh why, are all the lisp books so expensive? 20:49:30 minion: CLOS? 20:49:31 CLOS: The Common Lisp Object System is based on generic functions, multiple inheritance, and declarative method combination. http://www.cliki.net/CLOS 20:49:52 Odin-: to keep the unwashed away 20:49:58 stassats: Oh nice. Is minion written in Lisp? 20:50:04 SegFaultAX: yes 20:50:06 stassats: But it's also keeping me away! 20:50:12 stassats: Is he open source? 20:50:18 *Odin-* is a poor, poor humanities student. :( 20:50:18 SegFaultAX: yes 20:50:24 arent most of them available for free anyway, at least PCL? 20:50:28 stassats: Do you have information on that? 20:50:36 SegFaultAX: yes 20:50:38 moah: PCL is actually not that expensive. :p 20:50:49 stassats: Would you mind conveying it? :) 20:50:55 *gigamonkey* smiles on anyone buying PCL 20:51:15 *gigamonkey* also notes it's available on the web for free. 20:51:25 After PCL I intend to finally read SICP. 20:51:29 *moah* bought PCL in part _because_ the author chose to make it available on the web for free. 20:51:49 SegFaultAX: http://common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/ 20:52:01 moah: same here 20:52:23 *gigamonkey* smiles to see his plot working exactly as planned. 20:52:46 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:55 gigamonkey: Hardcopy is more convenient. You're welcome to the money. ;) 20:53:07 Actually, minion is derived from the cliki-bot example in cl-irc, and just runs in the lisppaste image. 20:53:29 (Okay, not -just- runs in the lisppaste image, as there's a small amount of crosstalk, but...) 20:54:24 stassats: Wonderful, thank you so much. 20:54:42 nyef: paste.lisp.org doesn't have source code display anymore? 20:54:59 It does, I believe. 20:55:40 i don't see a link 20:56:02 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@adsl-76-204-79-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 20:56:02 and http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/cliki-bot four-o-fours 20:56:11 Hunh. 20:56:22 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 Not sure what happened to it, then. 20:57:25 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-35-250.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:57 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 20:58:36 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Client Quit] 20:59:47 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:00:47 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:01:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:02:14 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:16 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:03:43 Joreji [~thomas@64-165.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:04:24 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:04:33 -!- sjbach [~sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:49 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:04:49 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:05:25 -!- alec [~aberryman@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06:57 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.145.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:06 gonzojive_ [~red@adsl-76-204-79-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:35 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:14:09 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-108-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:10 is there a way to get a binary stream out of a usocket stream ? 21:14:36 pr_ [~pr@p4FE2C8FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:37 -!- pr_ [~pr@p4FE2C8FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:14:44 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:15 oh, got it, there's an element-type key argument when connecting 21:16:45 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-50-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:18:01 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:18:01 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:18:01 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:21:20 Matt_S_G [~Matt@94.99.94.32] has joined #lisp 21:22:41 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.177] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 21:26:07 If you quote a list does that just mean that none of it gets evaluated? 21:26:24 And it just returns a list object? 21:26:45 SegFaultAX: (quote [anything]) evaluates to [anything]. 21:27:14 pkhuong: I don't understand that. 21:27:33 pkhuong: Why is that necessary? 21:27:36 SegFaultAX: there is no list. 21:27:43 you can't get a list object. 21:27:51 So then what type is [anything]? 21:28:09 SegFaultAX: [anything], unevaluated. 21:28:49 (Literally taken, [anything] is the symbol with print-name "[ANYTHING]", accessible in the current package, and is thus of type SYMBOL.) 21:29:02 nyef: (quote (1 2 3)) 21:29:05 nyef: but I'm running CL-SQL! 21:29:05 oh 21:29:06 sykopomp: So it could be unevaluated lisp code, such as in macros? 21:29:07 nevermind. 21:29:23 SegFaultAX: yes. That is what the whole backquote thing does. 21:29:29 backquote isn't 'macro syntax' 21:29:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:29:54 sykopomp: It's just quote all syntax, right? 21:30:19 sykopomp: Except where , comes before a symbol. 21:30:22 SegFaultAX: the backquote is like QUOTE, except it lets you evaluate some bits and pieces inside the otherwise unevaluated region, and splice lists into it. 21:30:23 Backquote is quasiquote is in some sense a "template" system. 21:30:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:30:42 '(foo bar baz) and `(foo bar baz) do the same thing. 21:31:00 Do the parens need to be quoted? 21:31:23 Would ('1 '2 '3) be the same as '(1 2 3) Is that even legal? 21:31:39 SegFaultAX: that is legal, but probably not what you intend. 21:31:52 sykopomp: Are those eq? 21:32:04 no, because the first one results in an error. 21:32:12 sykopomp: Why? 21:32:13 so I guess it's not quite legal. 21:32:32 SegFaultAX: it's going to try to evaluate ((quote 1) (quote 2) (quote 3)) 21:32:54 sykopomp: And that's illegal? 21:32:55 and the car of an evaluated sexp has to be either a symbol or a lambda expression. 21:33:13 Car? Sexp? 21:33:32 (car '(1 2 3)) => 1 21:33:51 Is that like a shiftf? 21:33:54 sexp is an s-expression, or 'symbolic expression'. 21:34:22 SegFaultAX: do you know how lists work? 21:34:49 i know, they use magic! 21:34:56 sykopomp: I only know up to about chapter 6 of PCL. 21:35:17 there is no list object. There are only cons cells (aka nodes). The car is the 'value' slot of the node. The cdr is the 'next node' slot of the node. 21:35:17 Maybe I should just run with it, and it will become clear as time goes on. 21:35:37 SegFaultAX: maybe you should read Touretzky 21:35:43 I agree 21:35:48 lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:53 minion: please tell SegFaultAX about gentle 21:35:53 SegFaultAX: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 21:35:53 Is that a better introduction? 21:35:58 much better 21:36:01 it's a wonderful book. 21:36:16 PCL assumes you're familiar with a lot of stuff already. :) 21:36:36 sykopomp: Is it geared for veteran imperative developers? 21:37:08 SegFaultAX: It's geared towards experienced programmers. 21:37:37 or rather, generally familiar with a variety of concepts, and at least one other programming language... 21:38:05 sykopomp: Well like I said after 15+ years of development I am trying to get into functional. 21:38:19 So anything that is geared for the non novice it better for me. 21:38:22 SegFaultAX: Common Lisp isn't particularly functional. 21:38:25 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:38:36 sykopomp: Declarative. 21:38:47 it's not particularly declarative either. 21:38:55 in fact, it's quite procedural and object oriented. 21:39:10 -!- outworlder [~stephen@189.90.170.251] has left #lisp 21:39:31 meta 21:40:28 sykopomp: Well however it should be described it's quite unlike anything I use professionally. 21:40:39 it is a programmable programming language 21:40:44 ^ 21:40:47 sykopomp: Which is almost exclusively C and Python. 21:40:58 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:41:06 lispm: Good enough definition for me. :) 21:41:15 SegFaultAX: alright. Just want to make sure you're not specifically looking at functional programming, which CL really won't provide. 21:41:26 in the sense that Scheme/Haskell/etc would. 21:41:34 CL doesn't force you into it. 21:41:58 Kinda like how Perl doesn't force you into much. (Except line noise, but that's a different argument.) 21:42:14 sykopomp: I want to learn it because I want to be a better developer. 21:42:16 still there is support for some parts of functional programming and it is hard to avoid that 21:42:26 sykopomp: Life long learner and all that jazz. 21:42:27 SegFaultAX: go ahead and check out Touretzky. 21:42:55 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:59 SegFaultAX: then you should unerstand quoting. The concept is omnipresent in real programming; e.g., "\", "\\", "\\\\", ... 21:43:09 SegFaultAX: You can also skip ahead to chapter 12 of PCL to get the scoop about cars and conses. 21:43:18 sykopomp: I'm gonna work through a bit more of this. If I still feel lost I'll make the switch. I hate stopping halfway through a text. 21:43:58 gigamonkey: Good tip. Although I think I can safely wait for now. Baby steps. 21:43:59 sometimes it might not be necessary to understand a chapter with the first reading 21:44:23 SegFaultAX: consider checking it out later, though. I quite liked the way Gentle explained functions/procedures :) 21:44:29 it may be useful to reread some PCL chapters later 21:44:32 I'm sure not everyone is a big fan of the boxes, though. 21:44:36 lispm: I'm getting that impression. Although now that I am on the macros chapter, things will pick up a bit I think. 21:44:37 You could also re-read chapter 4 where I talk about s-expressions and QUOTE. 21:45:36 I think it is always a compromise. one might introduce all the basic concepts first, but then one loses some reades who want to see practical stuff early 21:45:41 gigamonkey: I did, I just feel like there is something that he is not explaining fully. I understand how to use them, but not their implementation. 21:45:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:46:07 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7566ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:15 I am a very pragmatic and detailed learner. 21:46:35 So when things are unclear even in simple examples I try and find the answer. 21:46:42 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:55 I guess that's proving to be more hassle, since he explains it in the next chapter more often than not. 21:47:39 minion: Keene? 21:47:40 Keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/Keene 21:47:45 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:47:49 you can also mark the pages with colored strips, so that you can see which parts you want to reread 21:48:01 What was the other one? 21:48:21 lispm: (E-book edition) 21:48:37 SegFaultAX: so what thing are you currently finding unclear. 21:48:37 annotate the pdf 21:49:16 gigamonkey: Right now only the data type returned by QUOTE 21:49:27 Depends what you quote. 21:49:40 '1 is a number. '(1 2 3) is a list '"foo" is a string. 21:49:55 Can I 2 line paste in the channel? 21:49:59 However 1 and "foo" are 'self-evaluating' forms so '1 is the same as 1 and '"foo" is the same as "foo" 21:50:02 Does it have any real use except for lists and symbols? 21:50:07 lisppaste: url 21:50:22 Odin-: probably not. 21:50:27 It's just 2 really short lines. 21:50:38 pkhuong: lisppaste is still devoiced, apparently? 21:50:39 Though that points out another one 'foo is a symbol. 21:50:46 nyef: apparently. 21:50:47 gigamonkey: By the way, I must thank you for that book. Made it a lot easier for me to get somewhat up to speed. :) 21:50:55 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 21:50:57 It used to have more uses in older dialects, where many data objects were not evaluating to itself 21:51:09 fortunately that has been changed for CL 21:51:10 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/235678/ 21:51:35 He is talking about how one might implement unless if it wasn't already. 21:51:46 SegFaultAX: so what's your question about that? 21:51:56 So I understand that (if ...) is returned to the spot where the macro is called. 21:52:03 SegFaultAX: It returns a list. 21:52:16 SegFaultAX: Lisp doesn't really work like most programming languages. 21:52:18 Well, "returns" is maybe not the best term there. 21:52:30 It's sort of right; sort of misleading. 21:52:31 gigamonkey: Correct me. 21:52:54 gigamonkey: Maybe that's my hangup, semantics. 21:53:04 Where the UNLESS macro is used, it is "expanded" into the form that the macro returns. (So, yes, there is a "return" going on.) 21:53:22 SegFaultAX: Macros are really a part of the compiler. 21:53:47 The code that contains the use of UNLESS is then compiled with the expansion replacing the UNLESS form (i.e. the list starting with the symbol UNLESS) 21:53:48 SegFaultAX: And the code that you usually write actually represents the abstract syntax tree for your program. Macros are a way to plug into that. 21:54:19 Ohhhh, I get it. So it's not returned per se, it just does something similar to a text replacement with the result of that function? 21:54:29 Not that crude but similar, right? 21:54:32 Right. 21:54:42 Say better, where the UNLESS macro is used, it is expanded into the form that the macro-function returns. The macro expands, the macro-function returns the expansion. 21:54:43 Got it, perfect. 21:54:43 Think of macros as a way to write plugins for the compiler. 21:55:15 (And we'll go into what you can do with -real- modifications to SBCL's compiler later.) 21:55:35 Internals are scary. O_o 21:55:35 hehe 21:55:43 What nyef said is good. Just keep in mind that DEFMACRO is defining both the macro (the thing the compiler/evaluator recognizes) and the macro-function (the thing that runs to produce the expansion) 21:56:03 So if it's understood that a macro is going to be used as a sub, why does it's "return" need to be QUOTEd? 21:56:19 SegFaultAX: Because it needs to return a particular kind of data structure. 21:56:36 Odin-: What kind? 21:56:43 [mzm] [~ziggy@92.98.194.63] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 SegFaultAX: A "source form". 21:56:45 SegFaultAX: I don't understand the question. 21:56:47 *lispm* lists 21:56:47 SegFaultAX: you may also want to skip ahead to Chapter 8 and read "The Story of Mac" which may help. 21:57:12 SegFaultAX: A singly-linked list, which is what s-expressions represent. 21:57:14 SegFaultAX: it needs to return some data that the compiler can understand as Lisp code. 21:57:19 So it's not like a crude eval of a string, it actually returns lisp? 21:57:25 SegFaultAX: Yes. 21:57:34 yup 21:57:35 Which is usually a list but could be some other things. 21:57:37 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@12.155.80.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:55 For instance: (defmacro foo () "hello, world") 21:57:58 (print (foo)) 21:58:01 the lists as source code can contain all kinds of data 21:58:28 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.224] has joined #lisp 21:58:30 SegFaultAX: Most languages parse program text into a syntax tree, but Lisp just reads in a data structure; you actually write the syntax tree directly. Macros "return" pieces of that tree. 21:58:36 So this is prolly way over my head, but can you take some string at stdin, and make it a source form? 21:58:38 The (foo) expands into the string "hello, world". In the context of the call to (print that's legal code so (print (foo)) is the same as writing (print "hello, world") 21:58:42 Something like an eval? 21:58:51 clhs READ 21:58:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 21:58:59 A better example would probably be (defmacro my-when (condition &body body) (list* 'if condition body)). How would you perform substitution or other macroexpansion-time computations if the body of macros were always quoted? 21:59:07 READ is half of it; EVAL the other. 21:59:16 (If I got the question right.) 21:59:28 READ EVAL PRINT LOOP 21:59:33 SegFaultAX: imagine if you write C code in the abstract syntax tree the compiler uses, and that AST was an easy-to-manipulate data structure that was also in C (for example, if everything was returned as a plain old array) 21:59:40 that's what you interact with 21:59:58 and then imagine that you can choose to not compile bits of C code until later. 22:00:00 No sweat, I got this. 22:00:04 cool 22:00:16 Does lisp do lazy eval? 22:00:20 Nope. 22:00:23 -!- mpr312 [~chatzilla@pool-74-101-147-57.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:00:39 If it's interpreted is it run ad hoc or preporcessed fully? 22:00:50 what is this lazy thing anyway? i know haskell use it. 22:00:54 SegFaultAX: unspecified. 22:01:08 pkhuong: Implementation detail? 22:01:30 hypno: An expression is not evaluated until the moment its result is needed. 22:01:31 SegFaultAX: right. Although a standard compliant implementation must include a compiler, and that compiler is specified to at least perform some operations like macroexpansion. 22:01:56 SegFaultAX: Ah. Ok. Thanks. 22:02:03 -!- [mzm] [~ziggy@92.98.194.63] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:02:12 pkhuong: I imagine run time macro expansion would be really slow. 22:02:20 SegFaultAX: why would it? 22:02:48 It's just splicing object graphs together. 22:02:56 Because you have to modify the tree in real time? 22:03:39 your UNLESS does not do very much 22:03:45 It seems like insertion into a large execution tree without continuations would have a horrible worst case run time. 22:03:46 SegFaultAX: there are lazy evaluation systems for CL, though 22:04:03 Well I meant in the general case. Not my macro per se. 22:04:18 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:04:20 as for interpreted/compiled, it's implementation specific and murky area 22:04:23 p_l: Something like deferred methods? 22:04:34 SegFaultAX: why would one need to insert in the AST, if the expansion is performed just in time? 22:04:46 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-135.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:04:54 pkhuong: I wasn't aware it used a JIT. 22:05:21 pkhuong: Wouldn't that be implementation detail, as well? 22:05:21 There used to be a time when "just in time" meant "just in time", and not "COMPILED just in time". 22:05:33 -!- Euthydemus is now known as Euthydemus_ 22:05:52 pkhuong: Forgive me, Python has poisoned my brain. 22:05:53 :) 22:06:05 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441126.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:06:14 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:16 You are asking about implementation details. I'm pointing out that, if macroexpansion is performed during evaluation, there's not necessarily any need to insert the expansion anywhere. 22:06:28 Also, and I hate to admit this, I am occasionally forced to use Java from time to time. 22:06:54 pkhuong: Hmm, I see your point. 22:07:31 you just replace the code you execute with the expanded version 22:07:33 So does CL have a notion of deferred methods or something compatible? 22:07:58 SegFaultAX: you can implement them rather easily by passing closures around 22:08:27 What are deferred methods? 22:08:31 And, even if one wants to (e.g. to avoid expanding forms multiple times), it's simple to perform the substitution while walking back up the syntax graph (it's now hip to call that trick a Zipper) 22:08:42 gigamonkey: think passing closures around 22:08:43 I know this is probably a horrible question to ask, but does lisp suffer from the GIL? 22:08:53 GIL? 22:08:57 SegFaultAX: some implementations do have one 22:09:01 Odin-: Global Interrpreter Lock 22:09:18 The bane of concurrency in Python the language. 22:09:20 Odin-: CPython-related - Global Interpreter Lock, since CPython doesn't do real threading 22:09:28 most suffer from the GGCL 22:09:38 global gc lock 22:09:38 That would be in the non-threaded implementations, wouldn't it? 22:09:41 yeah, concurrect GC is hard 22:09:49 SegFaultAX: implementation dependent. I don't think any threaded implementation has one right now (some operations are serialising on certain implementations, like GC, allocation or compilation/loading of code) 22:10:17 Odin-: ACL and LW <6 used to have some rather coarse locking on most platforms even if they use system threads 22:10:43 pkhuong: ACL afaik still has, next version is supposed to get rid of it 22:11:03 Odin-: In general we don't do threading in Python. We use multiprocessing instead. Although GIL is not Python specific. 22:11:09 p_l: Huh. Any particular reason? 22:11:22 though AFAIK it could be rather easy for them to get GC-level locking, just that they want fully-concurrent implementation 22:11:35 Odin-: concurrency in infrastructure code is hard. 22:12:00 Odin-: and until SMP or multi-core machines became prevelant it didn't matter much. 22:12:08 pkhuong: Yup. I was wondering if it was a case of "rewiring our internals for this is taking a while" or if there were any general things they were running into. 22:12:15 Odin-: concurrency is hard, unless you are using certain schemes that don't necessarily fit ANSI CL. 22:12:39 Odin-: they are trying to get concurrency "done right" for CL, afaik 22:12:42 p_l: Does CL lend itself to MapReduce well? 22:12:43 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 22:12:53 Like Erlang's bazillions of lightweights? :> 22:12:54 clhs map 22:12:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map.htm 22:12:56 clhs reduce 22:12:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm 22:13:00 ^_- 22:13:02 -!- Euthydemus_ [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:02 SegFaultAX: what would make a language not lend itself well to map and reduce? 22:13:08 plus they have customers with large applications that might break under concurrency 22:13:13 mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.134.184.80] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 pkhuong: Being Python? *cough* 22:13:16 pkhuong: case study - Java 22:13:44 pkhuong: I meant MapReduce which is more or less a paralelization design pattern. 22:13:54 lispm: Ooooh, yeah. Existing code base, the largest single inhibition for base system development. :/ 22:14:04 p_l: and yet python and java were among the first languages used for MapReduce at google (the other being C++). 22:14:09 pkhuong: Not necessarily related to the common functional routines map and reduce. 22:14:16 SegFaultAX: what you are describing is an old functional pattern that has its name taken from Lisp :) 22:14:21 SegFaultAX: I'm pretty sure pkhuong knows what you're talking about. 22:14:43 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@indigo-15.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:14:45 gigamonkey: Surely, I was just clarifying what I meant. 22:14:45 pkhuong: that's because C/C++, Python and Java are among "official" languages at Google 22:14:49 As he asked, what would make a language suited or not to implementing a MapReduce system, in the sense you're asking about? 22:15:32 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:15:47 Java makes it harder in the sense of lack of nice function passing, so you either statically encode methods or deal with fugly Runnable (iirc) 22:15:56 gigamonkey: I'm not sure I know of a fitness test per se. Just that it can be a cumbersome pattern which can be exacerbated by the language. 22:16:17 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:16:21 Google's framework doesn't suffer from it much because afaik they have rather static code base 22:16:22 gigamonkey: What p_l said. 22:16:54 p_l: Hmmmm. Seems to me that having to implement an interface in Java is par for the course. I don't see how MapReduce makes that worse than any other kind of coding in Java. 22:16:58 So is CL not used in high concurrency applications much? 22:17:07 p_l: so, empirically, Java and Python scale nicely with map/reduce. And very few languages can send closures across the wire; does that mean that except for a few obscure languages like Termite and AliceML, nothing is well-suited to MapReduce? 22:17:20 pkhuong: that's not what I meant 22:17:27 pkhuong: Just cumbersome. 22:17:33 SegFaultAX: MapReduce isn't about (high) concurrency at all. 22:17:53 pkhuong: I didn't mean to imply that. 22:18:13 Avisch [~NONE@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:14 pkhuong: I guess I'm just rather used to passing a lambda to map and reduce, and thus my rather cumbersome experience in java 22:18:16 pkhuong: My question was not really connected to paralellization. 22:18:38 and I did point that it's fine when you can statically encode that 22:18:48 Grrr, I hate languages without GFs. 22:18:50 I don't think any implementation supports the sort of lightweight processes nor the failure-handling infrastructure that erlang offers, for instance. 22:19:22 CMUCL has similiar processes i believe, but they are not preemptive and they are not trustworthy. :) 22:19:41 yeah, Erlang & Mozart are kinda rare examples 22:20:05 Well. 22:20:14 How prolific is Erlang? 22:20:20 there was Wasp Lisp (or something similarly named) that supported Erlang-style concurrency 22:20:21 SegFaultAX: depending on how much transparency you're looking for an how complex your application's control flow is, a simple library with macros may be good enough. 22:20:22 Where is it used other than Academia? 22:20:29 Erlang's design basically was a result of some telephony engineers going "we need a decent programming language for what we're doing". 22:20:34 SegFaultAX: depends where you look for. And it's definitely not an Academia thing 22:20:36 ITA, just bought by Google, is our big success story, lately. 22:20:40 SegFaultAX: it comes from the telecom industry, actually. 22:20:50 Oh, I thought you were still asking about CL. 22:20:55 Erlang is the case of "oops, never been in academia" :D 22:21:05 Lucent did the same with Lisp 22:21:15 p_l: heh. But Joe Armstrong went *back* and got a PhD based on his work. 22:21:33 *Odin-* loves the double titling thing with Erlang, though. 22:21:36 gigamonkey: And showed that industry can make nice things as well :) 22:21:37 however, there are many ways to skin the concurrency fish in lisp. lightweight threading systems are not necessairly the only way to go around it. dtc for example have been suggesting a state machine planner + state machine as a better model instead of lwps. 22:21:38 Ericsson-language 22:21:50 Lucent used Lisp for writing ATM switch software 22:21:54 Really? I have been seeing a lot of research articles lately. Mostly on reddit. 22:21:55 hypno: and I'd tend to agree. 22:21:58 Or ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agner_Krarup_Erlang this guy. 22:22:00 they used message passing 22:22:13 in a large scale with Lisp 22:22:46 with embedded switch processors running LispWorks on a concurrent OS 22:22:49 lispm: Lucent also had some stuff with explicitly separate (i.e. OS-level) CSP 22:23:00 If I build an executable with SBCL, what external dependencies does it have. I.e. to what other systems will I be able to ship that executable and expect it to run? 22:23:12 gigamonkey: shared libs your deps used 22:23:13 What is LispWorks exactly? 22:23:25 pkhuong: so do i. i dont think lwps are at all that important - it is just hype for the moment. however, on the dtc note, have you seen anything of (production) quality code of that in practice? 22:23:27 gigamonkey: libc. 22:23:28 a commercial Lisp implementation 22:23:32 p_l: you mean non-Lisp shared libs, I assume? 22:23:36 hypno: linky for dtc? 22:23:37 Hello, first time here. Could I have some help with a win32 sbcl problem? 22:23:38 SegFaultAX: a company that sells commercial lisp implementation of the same name 22:23:46 pkhuong: http://195.43.248.109/~hypno/dtc.txt there you go. 22:23:48 gigamonkey: yes. At least for SBCL 22:23:59 gigamonkey: ECL is a bit of special case 22:23:59 pkhuong: i just love the way he spells it out in that post. :D 22:24:05 So, that's no worse than if I built a C executable, right? 22:24:10 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:10 hypno: well, explicit state machines were pretty much the only solution for concurrency. 22:24:13 gigamonkey: yes 22:24:18 gigamonkey: modulo the order of magnitude difference in executable size ;) 22:24:30 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:39 Yeah, there's that. 22:24:49 hypno: (for production code) until a couple years ago. 22:25:18 I'm toying with forcing/asking Code Quarterly authors to use my Markup language for submitting articles. But I can't do that in good conscience do that unless I provide them some tools for dealing with it. 22:25:36 -!- lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:37 I've got a Python implementation but working on it is making me sad. 22:25:42 lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:46 gigamonkey: would web service + a tiny shell script be good enough? 22:26:09 pkhuong: that's a good question. 22:26:09 Avisch: Possibly. What's the problem? 22:26:27 Is there much web stuff done in Lisp these days? 22:26:27 -!- lispm [~lispm@d227097.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:38 You mean a shell script to send stuff off to the web service, I take it. 22:26:44 SegFaultAX: webstuff is pretty easy these days in lisp. :) 22:26:49 Does lisp have popular web frameworks? 22:26:56 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 22:27:04 If I could keep my @#$#@$!@# web server from falling over with out of memory errors. 22:27:11 gigamonkey: right. And an optional heavyweight executable for people who really like working offline. 22:27:34 nyef, I get an error similar to this error https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/564938 22:28:01 gigamonkey: Did you write a code markup language? 22:28:08 Text markup. 22:28:16 gigamonkey: Like TeX for code? 22:28:22 I trying to compile asdf.lisp, it worked before. I cleared my windows for the heck of it (I didn't need any data) 22:28:28 No, like TeX for text. ;-) 22:28:31 reinstalled, but the error still persists. 22:28:32 SegFaultAX: I'd say the ease of writing web stuff since creation of Hunchentoot caused environment that is rather anti-framework, in the sense that it's so easy to write your own. 22:28:48 Similar to Markdown but a bit more general purpose. 22:28:52 I mostly use it for writing books. 22:28:56 gigamonkey: Then why not use TeX? 22:29:05 Or LaTeX 22:29:09 Because I also want to generate HTML and RTF output. 22:29:14 *p_l* is actually investigating writing a commercial web framework 22:29:27 (part of a bigger project) 22:29:29 gigamonkey: you could use tex4ht (: 22:29:38 And because it's even more minimal markup than TeX. 22:30:02 Because the stuff that groks the markup is implemented in Lisp (or whatever) rather than in TeX itself. 22:30:02 gigamonkey: Is it something like HAML? 22:30:13 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:24 Avisch: Hrm. Feels like a missing recieve-pending-interrupts somewhere, maybe... 22:30:27 gigamonkey: A prettier general format, which can be easily translated to a number of formats. 22:30:42 abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has joined #lisp 22:30:49 This HAML? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haml 22:31:13 It seems these "easy-to-write-and-convert" markups are a dime a dozen these days. 22:31:17 gigamonkey: Correct. 22:31:20 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 22:31:21 Used to be mostly Perl's POD... 22:31:23 SegFaultAX: Haml is rather HTML-specific 22:31:34 No, for the reason p_l just gave. 22:31:48 Haml looks terrible 22:31:56 Well, SGML general. 22:32:04 nyef: I also get a ""GC invariant lost, file "gencgc.c", line 936"" error if I use a slightly different exe 22:32:12 It's just logical markup in a lightweight form. It's most like Markdown but, as I said, slightly more general purpose. 22:32:19 It really doesn't have anything HTML specific per se. 22:32:27 Oh, joy. 22:32:28 gigamonkey: Got any example? 22:32:50 gigamonkey: (Btw, I think that's a great idea.) 22:33:01 adeht: it's quite good for HTML and CSS 22:33:23 Running through possibilities here, but I'm drawing a blank on being able to set up a system to replicate the problem on. 22:33:28 SASS is even better for CSS. 22:33:41 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 22:33:45 p_l: no thanks.. I prefer yaclml for html 22:34:43 nyef: I will have to leave in the next 5 minutes. Can we resume this conversation at a later time if the problem takes a while? 22:34:49 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 22:35:01 adeht: sure, but for separate files it was quite good. I usually use yaclml now :) 22:35:22 that reminds me that it would be useful to write a patch for yaclml with html5 stuff 22:35:55 p_l: good idea :) 22:35:57 Avisch: Certainly. My dinner is going to be ready soon as well, so I'd have had to run soon anyway. 22:35:58 A CL->HTML? That sounds pretty damn cool. 22:36:37 Avisch: Which version of windows are you running, btw? 22:36:49 nyef: xp professional 22:37:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@AMontsouris-158-1-2-138.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:37:21 Uh, are pastes not being announced? 22:37:23 Okay, so this is a really basic problem. 22:37:26 SegFaultAX: here's an example http://paste.lisp.org/display/112324 22:37:30 gigamonkey: No, the bot got devoiced a while ago. 22:37:37 minion: paste 112324? 22:37:37 Paste number 112324: "Markup example" by gigamonkey in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/112324 22:37:43 SegFaultAX: there are several systems for easy crafting of HTML/SGML/XML code 22:37:55 p_l, pkhuong, gigamonkey, nyef, hypno, lispm, Odin-: Thank you for all of your help. I really appreciate it. Sorry if I missed anyone. 22:38:32 Avisch: I'm going to have to figure out how to set up a win32 build machine to debug this, I think. 22:39:28 gigamonkey: Are the number of prefixed * an indication of header strength? 22:39:38 Yeah. That's from Emacs's outline mode. 22:39:53 nyef: thats fine. Should I leave for now and get back when I have more time? 22:40:12 gigamonkey: This is kind of a mashup of markdown and TeX. Very clean. 22:40:45 Avisch: Sure. And I'm gone as well for a bit. 22:41:08 coyo|pingout [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:24 One last question before I hit the book again... Does CL have a notion of regular expressions? Or is there a standard implementation of them? 22:41:37 cl-ppcre 22:41:47 gigamonkey: Did you write PCL in that? 22:41:49 Perl compatible and, on some Lisp's, faster than Perl itself. 22:41:54 Odin-: yeah. 22:42:12 yeah, cl-ppcre is a damn fine lib 22:42:22 gigamonkey: You wrote PCL? 22:42:33 I implemented it early on in the writing of PCL once I decided I'd better drink the Kool-Aid and use an all-Lisp toolchain. 22:42:37 SegFaultAX: yup. 22:42:44 gigamonkey: Haha. Cool. :) 22:42:56 gigamonkey: Oh man, I am so sorry if I offended you. 22:43:11 gigamonkey: I really love your book, just a few things were unclear to me is all. 22:43:12 Before that I had a nasty Perl script using lot's of regexps. Which was a nighmare. 22:43:21 nyef: see ya around. 22:43:22 SegFaultAX: No worries. Happy Lisping! 22:43:35 -!- Avisch [~NONE@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:43:35 Ironically, that's exactly how Gruber's Markdown is implemented. 22:43:38 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:06 I feel like an ass now. 22:44:16 SegFaultAX: Why? 22:45:01 Odin-: Well I feel like I was critisizing the book more than my own shortcomings in comprehension of its contents. 22:45:13 Odin-: I have a lot of reverence for authors. 22:45:37 Odin-: Even if I don't particularly care for the content, such as me + most fiction novels. 22:45:42 Ehh, they're just people. 22:46:16 *Odin-* is in a field where nobody's really "for real" until they've written at least one book. :/ 22:46:17 Odin-: Books are art IMHO. 22:47:48 Boticelli was just a person, but he still deserves a degree of reverence for his contribution to art. I generally feel the same way about books and their authors. 22:48:58 What am I, chopped liver? 22:49:00 Odin-: http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2007/09/25/uh-oh/ 22:49:26 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:27 Xach: Gah, sorry I missed your name. 22:49:45 Xach: surely those automotivators count for a book or two 22:49:49 Xach: Thank you for all of your help, as well. 22:50:03 Xach: *chop* *chop* *chop* 22:50:04 Well, I mean, I'm a contributor to Practical Common Lisp. 22:50:18 I contributed a lot to the cover part of the book. 22:50:31 Xach did all the heavy lifting. 22:51:04 gigamonkey: Isn't that just a result of the way computer scientists count? "None, one, whatever." 22:51:59 So COND doesn't fall through, correct? 22:52:12 Odin-: Could be. Though I think it's also an astute observation about psychology. If the first book doesn't put you off ever doing another, you'll probably keep doing them. 22:52:50 gigamonkey: Just look at Don Knuth :) 22:53:02 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:11 SegFaultAX: look at the link I just posted. He's the one who told it to me. ;-) 22:53:15 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:46 SegFaultAX: Knuth is a monster, I tell you! Tantalizing people with cliffy hiatus etc..... 22:54:03 So, what was his big announcement the other day? 22:54:05 gigamonkey: More than likely. Also seems to go for the humanities folks ... if you're put off by turning out pages upon pages upon pages of stuff, you won't cut it ... and then there's no option besides academia. :p 22:54:09 *p_l* cries to heaven about where the fuck is his new edition of TAoCP 22:55:17 -!- coyo|pingout [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:55:43 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 hmm... does the 2004 english edition of TAoCP use MMIX instead of MIX? 22:56:33 I wonder if they will release his unfinished 3 books post mortem, Tupac style. 22:56:58 ... apparently not 22:57:14 SegFaultAX: I'm still waiting for the MMIX update for first three 22:57:19 p_l: Funny story about Knuth from Hal Abelson http://paste.lisp.org/display/112325 22:57:34 You think you've been waiting a long time 22:57:54 ... oh fuck 22:58:06 sorry for language, but that's kinda extreme 22:59:58 Anyone watch his interview on web of stories? 23:00:22 *gigamonkey* wonders how many copies a good biography of Knuth would sell. 23:00:50 http://webofstories.com/play/17060 23:00:57 gigamonkey: I'll buy one... *after* I get my hands on MMIX-updated TAoCP :> 23:01:20 and preferably all 8 volumes of it 23:01:47 (MIX can't handle ASCII, even) 23:01:58 p_l: It's not certain it'll catch on. 23:03:29 you mean later volumes of TAoCP? 23:03:42 ASCII, I think. 23:03:48 ah 23:03:57 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@AMontsouris-158-1-2-138.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:04:52 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 23:04:54 sorry, I missed those days, the oldest stuff I used was SIXBIT and 7bit ASCII (and once, only once, EBCDIC-based MVS) 23:05:24 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:41 heyhey [512beecb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.43.238.203] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 Wow, I just realized that my best friend is a bartender at DNA Lounge which is owned by Zawinski. Interesting. 23:08:13 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:10:16 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:15 I read he quitted programming for nightclub management... 23:11:23 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:27 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@adsl-76-204-79-152.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 23:12:24 a wisdom I lack 23:13:44 you just keep using Lisp and we'll see... :o) 23:14:06 heyhey: it's less of a technical issue, I'd say 23:14:29 I was kidding, but enlighten me please :) 23:14:59 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt@94.99.94.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15:03 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:37 -!- jasonx_ [jasonx@93-138-17-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:15:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-165.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:16:40 I guess you mean he became disillusioned with the programming comunity? 23:16:55 heyhey: I see issues between me and management of most possible companies in the future. Owning a club sounds like heaven. 23:17:06 and I barely started working :> 23:19:03 p_l: I think the club owning plan involves making big bucks on the stock market first. 23:19:12 or perhaps, like many people, he was just waiting for achieving professional success in order to pursuit his real dream 23:19:44 p_l: you should read his blog about owning a club. Not all fun and games either. 23:19:44 heyhey: I read he just made money on the stock market. and I guess that made him decide do something worthwhile with his life :) 23:19:52 exactly schmrkc 23:20:05 -!- varjag [~eugene@243.196.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:11 Well, he made his money as an early employee at Netscape. 23:21:12 I am somehow disapointed that someone found something more interesting than lisp programming :) 23:21:28 heyhey: oh he's not the only one who has done that :) 23:21:33 Which might or might not be described as "on the stock market". 23:21:37 gigamonkey: I see. 23:21:38 And he wasn't doing Lisp by the time he quit. 23:21:58 If it was listed and the money was made from selling shares. ya I guess :) 23:22:15 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:19 well 23:22:25 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:22:26 why would anyone do lisp after fixing the bignum, eh? 23:22:57 -!- mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:19 gigamonkey: nothing is just fun and games once you start using your brain... unless your definition of "fun and games" are twisted enough to match Dwarf Fortress 23:24:21 p_l: fun and games + paying taxes pretty much :) 23:25:23 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229077004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:26:40 personally, the projects that I have that require big money (i.e. after and if I get rich) tend to be rather crazy stuff 23:27:04 Nice. 23:27:19 going to space? 23:28:06 heyhey: going to space is cheap, compared to that :D 23:28:18 A true lisper would invest it /all/ in a Symbolics comeback! 23:28:22 Moving to Saturn? 23:28:30 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:33 schmrkc: I was thinking asteroid belt 23:28:35 hmm, to the center of earth then :) 23:28:52 schmrkc: and getting a new body 23:29:01 :P 23:29:14 Interesting. 23:29:18 Especially #2 23:29:44 coyo|pingout [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:44 I guess he meant hiring a personal trainer 23:30:00 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 23:30:11 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:39 Yes. 23:30:58 *schmrkc* can smell a sale miles away. 23:31:04 nothing involving clonation 23:31:26 nope 23:31:32 and no cloning 23:31:36 *cloning 23:31:39 that's just barbaric brute force 23:31:58 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:08 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:39 why cloning when you can replace the randomly-designed machinery with fine tuned nanomachine-based system? (Some *pessimistic* predictions suggest we might get far enough in 50 years, yay!) 23:33:44 ech. 23:33:45 especially when microsoft enters that market 23:33:52 and what fun is that when you can just put barbells over your head. 23:34:05 'just let us reboot your body' 23:34:44 Press the any key to reboot your body. 23:35:00 "I don't have an any key..." 23:35:35 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.87.249.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:35:37 schmrkc: I find the concept of "I can get a near-hit with Davy Crockett and only get singed a bit" quite alluring, despite low probability of such event... 23:36:15 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:28 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:37:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:38:09 Lis [~Lis@p5B206116.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:58 -!- scott___ [~scott@207.204.222.251] has quit [Changing host] 23:42:58 scott___ [~scott@botters/staff/tsion] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 -!- scott___ is now known as scott_ 23:47:22 sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:52 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:19 -!- coyo|pingout [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]