00:02:06 -!- redline6561 [~yaaic@m545e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:14 redline6561 [~yaaic@m545e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:14 -!- redline6561 [~yaaic@m545e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:24 _3b: it's an artefact of LOOP's expansion. 00:02:29 redline6561 [~yaaic@m145e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:06 Iteration happens in two times, first increment (with setq), and only then is the range checked. 00:04:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:57 <_3b> pkhuong: i don't think that is what i'm asking about 00:08:16 <_3b> i'm wondering why the order of the LOOP clauses matters 00:09:12 <_3b> main difference i see in the expansion is 1 LET vs 2 00:09:47 <_3b> (aside from the obvious which clause it checks first) 00:10:21 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:15:16 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-94.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:16:37 <_3b> and naturally if i try to work with the expansion of the LOOP directly, i get different messages :/ 00:17:28 mm... yeah, the type system should be fine. 00:17:42 Except that "(def!constant sb!xc:array-dimension-limit (- sb!xc:most-positive-fixnum 2))" is a bit gratuitous. 00:18:01 <_3b> same thing with 5 for the limits instead of (length foo) 00:18:19 *_3b* didn't think of that simplification before the paste 00:18:42 *Fare* shuffles fd's around while reimplementing a layer around spawn 00:20:28 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:21:08 <_3b> if i expand the LOOP and use that, it fails to figure out the type of the RETEAT var instead 00:22:04 <_3b> *REPEAT 00:22:31 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:14 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:23:22 -!- pnq [~asdf@AC81C5B7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:27 -!- 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#lisp 03:58:59 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@118.143.5.5] has joined #lisp 04:07:21 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 04:12:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 04:13:16 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 04:13:19 trying to figure out how to create a fortran-like computed goto macro: GOTO (10 20 30 40) I 04:13:51 *toast`* computed goto -- is that like GCC computed gotos? 04:13:58 so if I evaluated to the value 2, I'd eventually get (go 20) 04:14:23 toast`: not sure, I came across it in some ancient fortran I'm looking over 04:14:43 i see. you should be able to simulate that with the appropriate LABELS block 04:15:07 trying to create GOTO is generally considered "not good" 04:15:08 or a macro around TAGBODY 04:15:38 can i assume you're trying to do this in common lisp? 04:15:39 Jasko: agreed, this is just messing around 04:15:49 toast`: tagbody was my original plan 04:16:08 I can't figure out how to get the value 20 out of the list and into the (go 20) statement 04:16:23 if you're mechanically translating, you could wrap it in a macro 04:18:07 the raw code would be (case (0 (go case0)) (1 (go case1)) ...) 04:18:22 oops, sory, (case I (0 (go case0)) ...) 04:22:31 lets, see, something like (defmacro computed-goto (the-cases expr) `(case ,expr ,@(loop x in 0 to (- (length the-cases) 1) collecting `(,x (go ,(elt the-cases x)))))) 04:22:46 wow, that was some terrible code (i'm just a noob, please pardon) 04:24:07 'go's argument has to be a literal value, not a runtime expression. i think that is where you are getting stuck 04:24:43 pasty bot's still dead eh? 04:24:44 (tagbody case0 ... case1 ... case2 ... (computed-goto (case0 case1 case2) 1)) 04:24:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111660 04:25:18 i'd avoid using the word 'labels', as that's a built in special form 04:25:30 nod 04:26:08 I see what you are getting at though, evaluating the elt form 04:26:13 in your paste, that won't do, because the tag in the (go _) must match a tag in the (tagbody) 04:26:28 nod, 'tis fubar ;) 04:29:28 I was thinking I could put the indexed tag into a list by it's self, then `(go ,@lst) 04:29:46 thanks toast`, gives me a bit more rope to hang myself with ;) 04:30:02 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111660#1 04:30:16 BUT, once you figure out how this code works, consider rewriting it with labels 04:31:48 yeah, GO is special. it doesn't evaluate its arg -- rather, it uses it as a non-computed "label" in the C sense of label -- although in common-lisp, it seems conventional to call it a 'tag' rather than 'label' 04:33:10 also, you should be able to debug the macro in the interactive environment. try (macroexpand '(cgoto (case1 case2 case3) (+ 1 1)) 04:33:20 nod 04:34:06 heh, i can never remember how to correctly write LOOP expressions 04:34:13 I'm trying to figure out what the fortran code is doing but it has many many many goto statements (it's 40 year old code) 04:34:24 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-232-49.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 04:35:38 heh, replace /x in y to z/for x from y to z/ 04:35:59 -!- pnq [asdf@ACA2BE32.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:36:53 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-oxotegtcdxdjhzpv] has joined #lisp 04:36:55 heh, now i remember why to use macroexpand-1 04:38:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111660#2 04:38:21 C-x Return in slime 04:38:29 er C-c Return 04:39:55 tthx, you gave me some good practice :-) 04:40:46 (had to look up the syntax for elt, case, *and* tagbody on that one) 04:43:11 that's pretty funky 04:43:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:39 would you expect any less from trying to write fortran in common-lisp? 04:43:49 ahaha 04:44:13 -- you're reminding me of "Real Programmers Don't Use Pascal" 04:44:29 "The easiest way to tell a Real Programmer from the crowd is by the programming language he (or she) uses. Real Programmers use Fortran. Quiche Eaters use Pascal." 04:44:49 I actually converted one of the .for files over to lisp with tagbody it wasn't bad. Had to write a numeric if though: (nif X 1 2 3) 04:45:07 o_O 04:45:16 nif? 04:45:53 < 0, = 0, > 0 04:45:57 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 04:46:29 like a compare func given to qsort, umm I think, been a while 04:46:45 C qsort, that is 04:47:49 (defmacro nif (expr whenless wheneq whengreater) (let ((expr-name (gensym))) `(let ((,expr-name expr)) (cond ((< ,expr-name 0) ,when-less) ...)))) 04:47:52 right? 04:48:24 yes 04:48:57 that one was easy, but the cgoto had me stumped ;) 04:49:23 eh, i code C++ by day. i'm the template metaprogrammer expert on my team 04:49:48 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 04:49:59 once you've taken the pain to learn _that_ hack of a kluge, common-lisp macros become a lot easier to parse o_O 04:50:44 if i may ask, what's the context for translating fortran into cl? 04:56:11 just studying some code, it's a compiler/interpreter for an ancient language calld APT (Automatically Programmed Tool), it's actully the first language to be standardized by ANSI 04:57:42 here's the fortran converted to lisp -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/111662 04:57:59 I just started typing and it fit pretty well 04:58:47 didn't help a damn bit for comprehending the code though ;) 05:07:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:08:41 plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 05:08:44 G'day! 05:10:14 the stacked when forms should probably be a case form, but meh 05:10:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:12:13 *stassats* scared to imagine debugging this code 05:13:05 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 05:14:01 they must of had blackboards full of flowcharts back then 05:14:09 bytecolor: heh, yeah, a good semantic translation is hard -- like with human languages, requires subtle understanding of idioms 05:14:35 mechanical, likewise, may round-trip but convey little understanding 05:14:59 sounds sweet. planning to run some code written in that language? 05:15:59 I have a friend that already hacked away at the code until he got it working, using f2c, so the C code is even worse than the fortran. But it actually works, well most of it. 05:18:31 my pie-in-the-sky dream is to embed the language in common lisp 05:21:32 I tried it in python once, but it felt too forced. but a lot of the statements tranlate over to lisp nicely. APT: p1 = point/ center c1 LISP: (setf p1 (point/ :center c1) 05:22:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.112.4] has joined #lisp 05:22:46 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:11 APT: has a few delimiter-type statements turn-this-on foo bar turn-it-off, those translate nicely to with- macros 05:26:39 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.112.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:27:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mmairdskxkrctakd] has joined #lisp 05:30:13 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:37:07 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:40:32 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:42:35 tcr [~tcr@115.134.227.5] has joined #lisp 05:49:44 -!- gabomagno [~gabomagno@CableLink38-32.telefonia.InterCable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:55:19 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 05:57:29 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 nostoi [~nostoi@80.31.173.160] has joined #lisp 06:05:44 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-13-231.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07:01 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 06:08:16 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-20-41.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:09:00 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:10:49 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:11:42 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@80.31.173.160] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:12:41 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:13:57 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 06:15:47 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 06:16:31 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:43 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:54 beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:56 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:24 beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:53 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 06:28:13 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:33:54 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:35:29 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:35:40 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:35:54 good morning 06:41:13 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 06:45:08 Is there something like __module__ == '__main__' to distinguish whether or not SBCL was invokved via script, or just compiled via C-c C-k? 06:45:08 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:58 eval-when? 06:46:15 how should that help? 06:46:42 you can exclude C-c C-k 06:47:15 Doesn't script look for a fasl file, too, and if there load from that? 06:47:38 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mmairdskxkrctakd] has left #lisp 06:47:51 lejoon [~lejoon@90-231-246-83-no156.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:01 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-33-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:48:32 i haven't used --script, and i actually have (pushnew :slime *features*) in ~/.swank.lisp and then #-slime(run-something) 06:49:18 Good point. Doesn't swank push :swank on *features*? 06:49:32 no 06:49:33 -!- lejoon [~lejoon@90-231-246-83-no156.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:49:51 I think it should 06:49:52 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-20-41.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:50:05 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:50:28 you can say that about any other lisp package 06:50:55 -!- plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:02 So? 06:52:24 so i think that you don't need to pollute *features* unless you have to do so 06:53:52 you -yourself- just said you make use of it in case of slime 06:55:02 well, because i need it! i don't think everybody needs it 06:55:38 I need it, too. Sounds like the majority of slime developers. 06:55:53 too bad there isn't more concise way than #+#.(if (find-package package) '(:and) '(:or)) 06:56:52 (standard way) 06:56:59 ASau [~user@77.246.231.30] has joined #lisp 06:57:18 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:57:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:57:45 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:59:01 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:59:49 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:02:30 something like (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\m (lambda (stream char arg) (declare (ignore char arg)) (if (find-package (read stream nil nil t)) '(:and) '(:or)))) 07:03:57 Seriously I'm going to push :swank the next time I'm annoyed by it 07:07:55 Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-219.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:08:45 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:04 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.121] has joined #lisp 07:11:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:15:38 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:18:01 lejoon [~lejoon@90-231-246-83-no156.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 07:19:49 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Client Quit] 07:20:01 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 07:20:13 billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 07:23:28 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:55 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hjwbynpsoghwnfqo] has joined #lisp 07:27:56 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 plage [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:37 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-33-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:35:57 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:36:36 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:55 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:40:30 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.228] has joined #lisp 07:40:39 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:15 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:41:38 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:42:25 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:46:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:16 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.244.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:57:51 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:01:30 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.244.110] has joined #lisp 08:01:56 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:06:34 -!- ko`otli [~coyotama@coyotama-1-pt.tunnel.tserv8.dal1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 08:08:45 -!- knobo [~user@82.89-10-22.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:14:55 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:15:21 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.228] has joined #lisp 08:16:28 -!- plage [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:26 -!- Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-219.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:20:08 npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has joined #lisp 08:20:23 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 08:21:10 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:21:41 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:18 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:29:44 tcr1 [~tcr@220.177.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 08:31:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.134.227.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:32:16 aw [~aw@p5DDA8B21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:19 what does frame mean inside sldb? 08:34:40 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 08:34:58 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:48 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:31 leo2007: call frame? 08:41:43 bandu [~coyotama@coyotama-1-pt.tunnel.tserv8.dal1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:26 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:37 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:42:51 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:37 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hjwbynpsoghwnfqo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:47:09 revel0__ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:47:24 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fblhvjbepcihjiwi] has joined #lisp 08:49:01 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 08:49:39 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:46 p_l: thanks. 08:53:32 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-122.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:55:24 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:52 Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-254.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:58:21 HG` [~HG@85.8.74.49] has joined #lisp 09:02:27 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:06:10 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:10:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:13:42 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.228] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:15:21 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:35 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:43 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:19:01 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:19:48 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.91.13.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:23:01 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:23:01 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:31 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn246.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:56 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:43 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 09:29:21 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7562a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:11 -!- lejoon [~lejoon@90-231-246-83-no156.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:33:01 -!- revel0__ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:35:04 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:37:40 _KY_ [YKY@unaffiliated/-ky-/x-0649748] has joined #lisp 09:37:53 <_KY_> What does "function" do? 09:38:14 <_KY_> If I apply it to a lambda expression? 09:40:03 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:40:25 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 09:42:06 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:43:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:36 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 09:43:51 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:45:02 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:46:40 _KY_: you'll get a lexical closure back 09:46:42 clhs function 09:46:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 09:47:20 <_KY_> A lexical closure closes some variables inside, right? 09:47:35 #' is a shorthand for FUNCTION as well 09:47:54 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:48:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:06 <_KY_> Why can't I just use the lambda expression, since it represents a function? 09:48:24 Hunchentoot 1.1.0 and SBCL 1.0.39. #:3000, peer: :54405" {B17A801}> is not a character input stream. Something I need to tweak? 09:48:43 <_KY_> (I'm looking at CLHS but I don't get it...) 09:48:53 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fblhvjbepcihjiwi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mgkicuehjzrqemjp] has joined #lisp 09:49:36 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:49 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:50:06 _KY_: it's unnecessary in the example that was in HyperSpec, but you'll find #' in many places 09:51:19 kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:27 kejsaren2 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:47 <_KY_> I can do all the things that example does, without using #' 09:52:49 argiopeweb__ [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:54:07 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:46 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:56:10 -!- argiopeweb_ [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:56:13 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 09:59:10 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:19 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.74.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:02:39 Hello 10:02:54 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:23 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:08 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:04:13 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:06:15 _KY_: A lambda expression does not represent a function in Common Lisp 10:06:56 (We have to be careful about words. Look up /lambda expression/ in CLHS' glossary) 10:08:03 -!- Algid [~endgame@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:38 isn't lambda a macro that expands to a function 10:12:25 <_KY_> And even after I use #' I still need to use funcall to invoke that function? 10:12:30 ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-21-203.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:17 #' is shorthand for the special operator function, just as ' is shorthand for quote 10:14:10 <_KY_> Lambda should return a function anyway 10:14:59 Yes, but it is returned by #' as a /value/ which must then be called by funcall. 10:15:14 _KY_: In CL, LAMBDA is a macro which turns into #'(lambda ...) 10:15:31 #' (or rather FUNCTION) is the special form in CL which creates lexical closures 10:15:47 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-122.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:16:36 <_KY_> But I can eliminate the FUNCTION in the example and the lexical closure still works 10:17:10 <_KY_> Secondly, your definition of lambda seems recursive 10:17:57 <_KY_> I mean recursive in a bad way =) 10:18:57 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 10:19:06 Good (almost) evening! 10:19:20 _KY_: No it's not recursive. Think about it. 10:20:22 tcr1: Which definition is _KY_ referring to? I just came here late. (My first irc chatting experience) 10:20:49 relcomp: I said that in CL, LAMBDA is a macro which explands to #'(LAMBDA ...) 10:20:51 _KY_: I was reading in ACL about lambda some days ago. in CL, (lambda (x) body) is a macro that expands to the list (lambda (x) body). 10:21:02 as tcr1 says :-) 10:21:10 no that's not right, it's expanding to (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) 10:21:14 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 10:21:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:34 and the lambda in (function (lambda (x) body)) is just a symbol, nothing more. 10:21:37 tcr1: #'foo is equal to (function foo) 10:21:49 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:29 <_KY_> Alright... 10:22:58 <_KY_> So what makes lambda work then? 10:23:02 you can undefine the lambda macro (I guess) and still be able to use lambda 10:23:05 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-136-193.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:23:09 _KY_: FUNCTION 10:23:12 Function is the special operator that produces functions. 10:23:18 Note that FUNCTION is a special operator. It neither evaluates nor macroexpands the argument but gves it a SPECIAL (nb) treatment. 10:23:39 Note that (lambda (x) body) is a function name, much like foo. 10:23:39 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:40 laynor`: no you cannot, you must not modify the CL package 10:23:40 <_KY_> nb? 10:23:53 Which is what permits ((labda (x) body) y) to work like (foo y) 10:23:58 Does this help? 10:24:10 tcr: I guess there's a way to do it right? 10:24:21 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:24:40 -!- kejsaren2 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:40 -!- kejsaren1 [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:25:28 What problem are you trying to solve? 10:25:32 sometime tail-recursion can be pretty difficult 10:25:34 laynor`: Depends entirely on the implementation 10:25:39 <_KY_> Then putting FUNCTION in front of lambda is redundant then 10:25:54 No is is not. 10:25:55 ky: Yes. 10:26:04 tcr: I see :-) but conceptually, the macro LAMBDA is totally redundant. 10:26:06 It is redundant in CL. 10:26:18 laynor`: ALL the macros are totally redundant. 10:26:25 In days of yore #'(lambda () ...) would produce a closure, where (lambda () ...) would not. 10:26:32 laynor`: try to program using only lambda or tagbody/go. 10:26:45 Thivago: It is not. 10:27:01 relcomp: Provide reasoning. 10:27:09 pjb: if I take off the lambda macro I just have to add #' 10:27:21 Try (#'(lambda (x) x) 'foo). You wiill get an error. 10:27:28 wwhy you want to compare a liver transplant to nail cutting? 10:27:31 Any programming language that goes beyond the, what, eight operations needed for Turing-completeness is full of redundancies! 10:27:32 :p 10:27:54 relcom: You do understand what redundant means? 10:28:28 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:06 OK. understood. The macro definition of lambda is redundant. 10:31:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:35:36 _KY_: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-relationship-of-lambda-and-lambda.html 10:39:50 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:41:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: os update] 10:43:54 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 10:43:55 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:55 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:30 is it possible a tailrecursion with a n-tree ? 10:44:38 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-1.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 10:44:49 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:45:12 I have to collect leaves 10:45:38 if there's something already done, please let me know 10:46:11 collect leaves in what order? 10:46:44 depending on the order, you can use iteration + an heap-allocated LIFO or FIFO 10:46:46 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:53 tcr doesn't matter, onoly the parent node must match a criteria and so the leaf 10:47:14 *only 10:48:05 tcr, I'm parsing the bodystructure of an imap fetch that can be pretty complex 10:48:35 -!- JoesphL0t [~JoesphL0t@64.120.233.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:49 JoesphL0t [~JoesphL0t@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 10:49:10 mmm... instead of simply traversing the tree I could reduce it 10:50:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:50:37 argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:24 seems difficult to tail recurse anyway 10:51:43 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B383.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:51 lejoon [~lejoon@90-231-246-83-no156.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:53:33 -!- argiopeweb__ [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:54:24 Just pass a stack along :) 10:55:40 kiuma: Sure -- you just need to remember the path you followed to get to where you are in order to backtrack. 10:55:55 kiuma: That's easily modeled as a stack. 10:56:25 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-201-249.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:38 stack, ok I'll think about it, thx Zhivago 10:56:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-201-249.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:09 On the other hand, why do you want a tail-call version? 10:57:31 <_KY_> Is there an implementation of lazy streams in CL? 10:57:47 KY: Are you familiar with the common lisp directory? 10:57:59 <_KY_> No 10:58:07 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:58:17 <_KY_> I'm using CLISP 10:58:21 Zhivago, to not consume the stack, clonsigna should be used also wor web applications 10:58:36 *for 10:58:56 Um, why don't you want to consume the stack? 10:59:06 And what do web applications have to do with it? 10:59:45 Zhivago, sorry we are speaking of different stack :) 10:59:53 I meant memory 11:00:08 Um, why do you think that tail recursion is going to use less memory? 11:00:13 Your stack solution seems good 11:01:47 HG` [~HG@85.8.74.49] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 I don't see how it would use less memory than using the control stack ... 11:02:44 I want to avoid possible stackoverflow 11:02:57 that's all 11:03:13 Do you care about exhausting memory? 11:03:19 sure 11:03:54 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:35 So, it doesn't actually fix anything. 11:04:51 Just limit the tree depth or traversal depth. 11:05:56 no your solution and my picture in mind work, I just need to fix them :) 11:06:44 The problem is that it sounds like your mind is currently faulty. 11:07:08 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:07:13 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 11:10:19 aperturefever [~shevek@athedsl-195980.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:10:35 -!- yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:11:28 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:36 vonli` [vonli@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:16:36 -!- vonli [vonli@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:11 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:30 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:05 Booh no change-class for conditions on sbcl 11:21:32 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.131.223] has joined #lisp 11:23:22 kiuma: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111672 (Take this paste brother and may it serve you well!) 11:25:41 relcomp, thanks a lot 11:25:50 yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has joined #lisp 11:26:08 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:26:12 morning 11:26:17 tcr: I don't seem to be able to find an explanation to the second method signature of change-class in the CLHS. Do you know what it means? 11:26:25 hey splittist; long time no see. 11:26:27 xan_ [~xan@snezana-fe0.wmx.mediaworksit.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:39 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 11:27:06 plage: indeed. My bad. 11:27:28 What have you been up to? 11:28:39 plage: Work. Life. (Interesting how I separate those... and separate them from lisp...) A fair amount of reasonably short-hop travel. 11:29:11 plage: last paragraph in change-class's description 11:29:27 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:59 tcr: Right, thanks. Missed it somehow. 11:30:26 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 11:30:28 splittist: Yes, interesting view :) To me, it's all mixed up, for better or for worse. 11:31:48 splittist: So does this event mark your return to Lisp hacking? 11:32:17 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-194-39.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:33:42 *plage* needs to find a GOOD example of the use of a nondeterministic finite-state automaton by tomorrow at 13:30. 11:34:32 ... which leaves me 19 hours or so. 11:36:39 There are artificial examples where the DFA is exponentially bigger than the NFA, but I have yet to find a convincing one. 11:37:11 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:31 <_8david> plage: regular expressions? 11:37:47 plage: one that doesn't look /too/ artificial? 11:38:03 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:38:40 _8david: I considered that as one of the possibilities. But I haven't introduced regular *languages* yet. Perhaps I'll just have to do that first, and use them to show the need for NFAs. 11:39:56 laynor`: Yes. There is the one that recognizes all sequences of 1s and 0s where the nth digit from the end is a 1. That one will make my students fall asleep instantaneously. 11:40:25 it's easy to understand though 11:40:46 laynor`: Indeed, but this crowd is very different. 11:41:40 dfas and nfas are regular languages recognizers though. and uhm, unless you introduce regular expressions, how do you define regular languages without saying they are the languages a fsa can recognize? 11:41:42 ^^; 11:43:03 I think I learned automatas before regexs, but I'm not totally sure 11:44:00 laynor`: I started with DFAs without giving the definition of the languageso such a thing is capable of recognizing, simply because I could use my previous definitions of directed graphs. There are interesting examples that can be found without using regular expressions, just intuitive definitions of languages. 11:47:31 mhm, not easy to find an interesting one indeed 11:48:34 you can recognize all the texts that end with the stereotypical happy ending, reciclying that 0101011 example 11:48:41 lol' 11:49:40 Interesting idea. Now make that understandable in French to Vietnamese students. :( 11:52:11 oops 11:53:23 laynor`: Yeah. Don't worry about it though. I'll figure something out. 11:53:31 plage: I hope so! 11:53:59 splittist: Excellent! 11:55:47 splittist: Any plans on what to work on? 11:57:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:38 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57:58 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:59:54 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:44 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:03:05 plage: what about recognizing all the routes (expressed as text) that lead to rome? Think about having a list of itineraries from any city to any other city. 12:03:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:04:42 laynor`: That sounds quite good. I'll substitute Da Lat for Rome, but that won't change anything. I'll definitely think about it. 12:05:04 laynor`: Thanks for the inspiration! 12:05:48 plage: just building out my document creation scripts, I think. 12:06:31 splittist: I guess we haven't been in compatible time zones for some time, so I am not quite sure what it is that you are working on. 12:07:05 -!- lejoon [~lejoon@90-231-246-83-no156.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:07:08 hello plage 12:07:14 hey mvilleneuve 12:07:52 mvilleneuve: I am totally confused about days and times, so I kind of didn't expect you here, but now that I think about it, it's quite normal. How are things? 12:08:15 plage: you're welcome XD 12:09:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-99-141.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:10:12 plage: this week should be more calm (and lisp-based) than the previous one. How about you? Not in Vietnam anymore? 12:10:22 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-136-193.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:10:33 laynor`: I think it will work: all tourist trips that have Da Lat as the third destination from the end. It is equivalent (worse) than the 01 example, and more concrete to my students. 12:12:02 mvilleneuve: I have another week in HCM, teaching language theory to second-year undergraduates who are few, unmotivated, and not as good as I would like them to be, during a period where the temptation to stay up until 3 in the morning to watch football is overwhelming. :( 12:13:05 ah, sorry about that... 12:13:22 mvilleneuve: It pays the bills ... :) 12:14:00 mvilleneuve: Besides, there is plenty of time for more interesting activities. 12:14:11 plage: can you tell me one of the addresses to which your local DNS resolves sql.z.xach.com? 12:14:44 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:14:50 Xach: Sure, you just have to tell me how to do that. 12:15:26 HerrBlume [~user@62.96.71.161] has joined #lisp 12:16:56 plage: With unix, you can use "dig sql.z.xach.com". 12:17:17 my computer prints a line (one of many) that looks like this: d3u7pqyuhnthu9.jfk1.cloudfront.net. 60 IN A 204.246.169.149 12:17:25 i'm curious about the "jfk1" part for other people 12:17:31 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:18:04 ams1 here 12:18:20 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:18:30 stassats`: Thanks. 12:18:41 Xach: I got Schiphol as well. 12:18:54 Xach: I don't see any jfkl thing, but I get plenty of d3u7pqyuhnthu9.cloudfront.net 12:18:59 plage: Ok, thanks. 12:19:07 plage: Try digging again. 12:19:10 *Odin-* had the same. 12:19:15 Well, you would have to wait 60 or more seconds 12:19:26 Then another dig, and all of a sudden, ams1 materialised. 12:19:32 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-10-217.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:20:01 This is part of the quicklisp project - I think I might use Amazon's CDN to serve files, so people have fast downloads in many geographic locations. 12:20:11 Xach: same answer pretty much. 12:20:25 *Xach* will have to do some cost calculations to see if the increased performance is worth it 12:21:59 Xach: You may not want to base your decision on what happens in a hotel in Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam. 12:22:16 plage: Oh, but I do. 12:22:28 Xach: OK, fine then. 12:23:02 plage: Adequate performance in more than just the USA is important to me. So while your location is not specifically the most important, any info from outside the USA is useful. 12:23:38 Xach: OK, I'll be happy to provide more information then. 12:26:38 Xach: fra2 here (GVA) 12:27:08 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:16 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:27:26 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:28:11 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sccicnhfhulfwizd] has joined #lisp 12:28:35 plage: by the way, I'm not so fresh about automatas, but why this http://pastebin.com/EWQzieRW won't do for the 01 sequence? 12:29:28 uhm, having problems with pastebin 12:30:58 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-oxotegtcdxdjhzpv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:31:19 plage: http://paste.lisp.org/+2E63 12:31:52 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:18 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:46 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:35:14 laynor`: I'm not smart enough at this point to answer your question, but the usual answer is that it will also recognize string that you don't want it to. 12:35:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 12:36:34 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:37:11 Xach: and consistently so, FWIW 12:37:18 laynor`` [~user@109.76.66.27] has joined #lisp 12:37:34 stupid internet -_-' 12:37:39 -!- laynor`` is now known as laynor 12:37:45 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:31 plage: anyway, I misread the 01 problem before :-) 12:38:48 laynor: Ah, I see. 12:38:59 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:14 laynor: I still think there is a tourist-destination example to derive from it, though. 12:39:52 -!- laynor` [~user@93.107.66.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:40:06 noodman [~noodman@host86-137-200-184.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:46 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:40:46 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 12:41:21 /who chrnybo 12:41:28 ejs [~eugen@228-141-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:39 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:44:03 what is a good IDE for Lisp? 12:44:08 Slime 12:44:28 laynor` [~user@109.76.66.27] has joined #lisp 12:44:29 does it have like a debugger etc... like eclipse..? 12:44:41 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:44:46 noodman: LW or ACL is closest to that. 12:45:26 it has a debugger and i don't know a thing about eclipse 12:46:02 *hypno* knows it takes a modern super computer cluster just to boot the thing... 12:46:18 so is emacs used by most lisp porgrammers? 12:46:22 programmers* 12:46:37 yes. 12:46:38 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:39 noodman: by most here, anyway. 12:46:46 ok 12:46:48 thank you 12:46:51 by most sane, anyway 12:47:03 The lispworks folks seem happy and sane to me. 12:47:09 But they don't hang out here. 12:47:19 Xach: no wonder, it has emacs built-in 12:48:39 -!- laynor [~user@109.76.66.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:48:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mgkicuehjzrqemjp] has left #lisp 12:49:41 Xach: Lispworks works with Slime too. 12:49:59 Intensity [DCL6d1TtoM@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 12:50:44 Joreji [~thomas@95-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:50:45 chrnybo: Yes. Many of the LispWorks users I know do not use slime, but use the IDE instead. 12:51:35 noodman: You can download and try out the LispWorks IDE for free as in beer. 12:51:56 guess it pays off in the long run. you basically get a fully multithreaded emacs for free with modern widgets and whatnot... 12:52:19 modern widgets? on motif? 12:52:43 i was thinking of CAPI. 12:52:56 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:19 -!- DrForr is now known as DrForr_YAPC 12:54:47 stassats`: afaik, LW6 goes with GTK these days. 12:55:50 Did anyone of you test a Lisp-machine emulator? I'd like to test one of these at http://www.unlambda.com/. Any advice which one is "best"? 12:56:28 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:56:50 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:57:05 -!- aperturefever [~shevek@athedsl-195980.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:57:18 -!- noodman [~noodman@host86-137-200-184.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:58:09 It's my inability to get paredit-like features on LW that keeps me sliming. [adjust tenses as necessary] 12:58:10 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:58:34 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:58:58 relcomp: I managed to run Meroko, but it can crash sometimes, and I didn't test networking 13:04:53 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:07:01 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:09:37 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:09:43 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 13:10:10 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:10:14 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 13:10:23 -!- aw [~aw@p5DDA8B21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 13:15:05 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:25 alama [~alama@c-75-73-224-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:10 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:21 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:18:43 kiuma: there are flaws in my paste - I put a correction there. 13:18:50 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jahukwnqfrwuziay] has joined #lisp 13:18:56 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:02 ... er , have put... 13:20:15 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-sccicnhfhulfwizd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:23 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-23-82-248-123-71.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:20:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:21:59 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 13:25:13 metasyntax [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:15 -!- moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju 13:26:23 anyone else having trouble with clbuild on a mac? 13:26:58 not recently 13:27:03 what's the problem? 13:30:13 running clbuild update --installed updates only a few systems, then dies; clbuild update --resume results in an error saying that the update was interrupted 13:32:03 i'm not sure which system is causing clbuild to choke 13:32:29 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-96-127.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:51 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:30 hmm, the pastebot seems to be ignoring me 13:34:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111677 13:35:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:36:27 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:37:10 sounds like it's the system that comes after babel (: 13:37:24 (alphabetically 13:37:32 yeah 13:38:08 well, if i look at the projects file, that's cffi 13:38:28 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:51 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:39:08 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:39:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111677#1 13:40:10 p_1: Nice. Meroko is up and running. 13:40:35 -!- hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Get FlowChat for the iPhone and iPod Touch! http://flowchat.me] 13:40:52 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:41:22 *p_l* gets a sudden urge to wage a war on fonts that make l and 1 looks so similar 13:41:30 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 13:41:31 hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:57 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-59-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:42:16 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:42:36 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.131.223] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 13:42:48 weird 13:42:56 alama: I do recall seeing something similar before 13:43:03 I don't know when the last update failed for me, though 13:43:08 (and how I resolved it) 13:43:10 being vaporware, quicklisp lacks that problem! 13:43:12 sorry to be so unhelpful 13:43:19 *Xach* scores one in the quicklisp column 13:43:37 minion: memo for plage: i've found it useful to use more concrete alphabets, e.g. business actions, instead of random symbols. 13:43:37 Remembered. I'll tell plage when he/she/it next speaks. 13:43:45 Xach: unwritten software is bugfree and runs at the speed of mouth (: 13:43:49 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:43:56 antifuchs: ok, thanks for looking at it, though 13:44:02 p_l: Nice. Meroko is up and running. (Sorry) 13:44:12 antifuchs: free ponies to the first million users 13:44:16 relcomp: don't worry, just get a better font :) 13:44:36 and moons, attached to free sticks. 13:44:47 p_l: I'm not worrying, I'm kidding. 13:45:32 ^_- 13:46:37 -!- hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:50 hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:11 -!- hadronzoo-mobile [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:47:46 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.186.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:48:44 Hmm, can anyone suggest prior art on a portable autoload mechanism, e.g. only load chipz when myapp:gunzip is called? 13:49:04 *Xach* has a couple heavy, slow fasls he wants to avoid loading all the time 13:49:09 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.140.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 13:50:03 Xach: do you use threads in that application? 13:50:07 Allegro Presto and new autoload system 13:50:42 pkhuong: no. 13:50:45 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:52 pnq [asdf@ACA4A679.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:11 Xach: good (: 13:54:13 Xach: you could use a large core file with everything loaded 13:54:24 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 13:54:31 That is not an option. 13:55:29 hi, I'm sure there is a filter function in lisp but I don't know the name, I need something like (???? #'evenp '(1 2 3 4)) => (2 4) 13:55:37 remove-if-not 13:55:40 Xach: thanks 13:58:27 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:47 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:59:47 -!- yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:56 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:52 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-139-157.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:07 G'morning all. 14:02:16 hi nyef 14:02:16 ignotus: or (remove-if #'oddp ...) :) 14:03:03 Anything interesting happening? 14:03:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:04:13 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-59-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:50 quicklisp! 14:06:30 -!- _KY_ [YKY@unaffiliated/-ky-/x-0649748] has left #lisp 14:06:49 well, interesting to me, anyway. 14:07:25 Odin-LAP [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 14:07:43 Xach: google doesn't say much about quicklisp, what is it? 14:07:57 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jahukwnqfrwuziay] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:08:18 quicklisp is my idea for bootstrapping into a lot of available libraries quickly & easily. it's a little like clbuild in that respect. 14:08:42 ok, I was hoping you weren't a student at the uni of malta: http://staff.um.edu.mt/jskl1/turbo.html#Lisp 14:08:46 not yet 14:08:52 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-1.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:10:52 quicklisp differs from clbuild in that it uses snapshots of projects (or copies of their release tarballs) and makes them available via http, so you don't need darcs, git, svn, or cvs, just a http client. it also includes said client in a single lisp file that works on all CLs on all platforms. 14:11:25 load a file -> you've got quicklisp and 200 projects available. now, whether the *projects* will work for you on your favorite platform and CL... 14:12:40 that's part of the idea, anyway. 14:14:36 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:15:22 interestig 14:15:43 so, something like github's (or sf.net's) repo snapshotting facility? 14:16:12 A bit. Plus extracted metadata with all dependency info. 14:16:19 sounds good 14:16:23 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:31 Also, snapshots are versioned, and never disappear, and same with metadata. So you can go back in time to something that works for you if needed. 14:16:40 (is the idea) 14:17:00 funny, I was meaning to do this with clornucopia/clappa way back when 14:17:07 it's a fine idea 14:17:23 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:17:46 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:49 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:27 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:21:02 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 14:22:01 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:22:47 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.231.30] has quit [Quit: off] 14:22:54 *Xach* has almost all of the pieces working for a useful 1.0 14:23:15 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 14:23:59 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn246.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 14:24:12 antifuchs: want to try the proof-of-concept demo? it's not very smart, but it works. 14:24:33 sure (: 14:24:45 argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 (I can't promise I'll try it today, though... probably tomorrow, though) 14:25:14 -!- pnq [asdf@ACA4A679.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:15 but it's so Quick! 14:25:15 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:49 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-89-94.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26:34 what happens if i run quicklisp in clbuild? (: 14:27:12 it might not download anything, but use its dependency info to find local stuff instead. 14:27:59 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:28:09 neat! 14:28:18 it didn't download ht, but loaded it fine 14:28:20 that's sweet 14:28:47 http://src.quicklisp.org/systems.txt has the auto-extracted dependency info 14:31:54 cool (: 14:34:14 Xach: how does one add a package? 14:34:32 xristos: I add a package by editing a text file and turning a crank. 14:34:42 xristos: At the moment, I'm the only one. 14:34:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:07 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:36:01 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:39:01 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:29 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:42:59 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:05 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 14:53:59 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.3] has joined #lisp 14:55:17 Xof: ping? 14:55:25 poing 14:59:23 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:59:40 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:48 hello 15:00:05 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:05 (pkhuong, that was for you...) 15:01:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@snezana-fe0.wmx.mediaworksit.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:04 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:07 Hello Xof. 15:06:09 janko [~janko@h204-246-2-54.mdsnwi.tisp.static.tds.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:22 -!- janko [~janko@h204-246-2-54.mdsnwi.tisp.static.tds.net] has left #lisp 15:06:30 Brogen [~Brogen@CPE-69-23-85-62.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:02 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:07:08 -!- Brogen [~Brogen@CPE-69-23-85-62.new.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 15:07:35 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:46 xan_ [~xan@snezana-fe0.wmx.mediaworksit.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:03 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:10:24 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:10:49 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 15:11:24 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:49 black_out [~kvirc@unaffiliated/black-cat/x-4307362] has joined #lisp 15:13:25 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 15:13:33 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:14:15 -!- black_out [~kvirc@unaffiliated/black-cat/x-4307362] has left #lisp 15:14:39 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 15:14:40 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:15:34 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:19:08 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:08 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:34 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:20:07 silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:27 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 LiamH: do you have a way in common lisp to get the jacobian (like the one in maxima) of a group of equations? 15:21:20 argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 15:21:28 leo2007: load maxima? :) 15:21:58 leo2007: I'm not sure what you mean. 15:22:22 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:22:47 p_l: I have been translating maxima's jacobian output to lisp manually. It is error-prone. 15:23:01 Symbolically? No. You could use maxima from lisp; I've done it before. It's a bit awkward, but can be done. 15:23:20 fe[nl]ix, ping 15:23:36 -!- argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:46 LiamH: yeah. that's why it is probably not worth it loading maxima just to do that. 15:24:31 but to answer your question, I don't have a special way of computing a jacobian symbolically in lisp, no 15:25:30 Fare: pong 15:25:36 -!- cheater99 [~cheater@ip-80-226-30-25.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:19 fe[nl]ix, I'm working on an enhancement to create-process that has more options. 15:26:28 Maybe we can discuss the interface of it. 15:27:04 Especially since on top of it, I kind of want to layer a function that registers handlers into the event loop. 15:27:06 I have a big uncommitted patch here 15:27:11 oh. 15:27:11 too 15:27:15 gah. 15:27:22 so we can discuss it 15:27:35 sorry, but I didn't have time to complete it 15:27:50 my version takes an alist of redirections, and resolves any circularity in fd renaming. 15:27:59 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:28:15 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:44 chainsaw_yum_ [~morgil@fl-65-41-132-249.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:01 LiamH: thanks for the info. BTW, what's new with the ccl bug? 15:29:14 which is especially important when you don't know what fd's are open in the parent. 15:29:56 fe[nl]ix, currently, I'm working in a different package quux-iolib, but if you're interested I could write it as a patch to iolib instead. 15:30:22 leo2007: Nothing, and unlikely to be anything unless someone knowledgeable on debugging CCL foreign functions steps up. Suggestion I got from #ccl didn't help. 15:30:34 fiveop [~fiveop@e179127106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:03 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:31:08 leo2007: got to get CCL maintainers interested in GSLL, I guess :-) 15:32:12 also, I'm using sysconf(_SC_OPEN_MAX) to get a number of fds - and by default closing all fds below that number except those asked about 15:32:45 Does ASDF keep a list of systems that have been loaded? 15:33:49 yes 15:34:10 it also remembers the path where they were loaded from. 15:34:16 and timestamp 15:34:24 Is it accessible to the user? 15:34:26 for every file 15:34:52 asdf internals haven't changed much in a while, so yes, though it's not overly documented. 15:35:14 patches to the documentation welcome, as usual. 15:35:36 (the docstrings should help you; ASDF code is mostly readable these days) 15:35:59 LiamH: thanks though. I guess for my current project ccl is out. I am using SBCL. Which version of SBCL are you running? 15:36:28 LiamH: ASDF::*DEFINED-SYSTEMS* 15:36:35 it's a hashtable 15:36:37 p_I: just found that 15:37:05 *p_l* headdesks at the font 15:37:15 for ccl-specific help, you may try #ccl 15:37:19 LiamH: Beware! p_l is peculiar with his nickname. 15:37:37 relcomp: no, I'm just freaked by the amount of times it is misspelled this way 15:37:59 Especially given that it isn't much of a nickname 15:38:11 *LiamH* likes alexandria:hash-table-alist 15:38:12 *Fare* recommends using find-system and find-component over peeking at defined-systems. 15:38:20 p_l: How did you do the "p_l headdesks at the font"? (I'm an IRC-newbie) 15:39:05 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:10 relcomp: /me 15:39:23 I'm interested in systems that are loaded, not all the ones available. 15:39:24 LiamH: no autocompletion ? 15:39:27 particular not peculiar (OOPS) 15:39:54 relcomp: it's actually just my initials 15:39:55 *relcomp* says thank-u to p_l 15:40:03 np 15:40:16 fe[nl]ix: autocompletion? 15:40:17 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:40:36 p_l: How did you guess my initials ;)? 15:41:00 relcomp: I didn't guess yours :D 15:41:41 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:43:02 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:43:44 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.148.99] has joined #lisp 15:43:55 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:45:21 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:45:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:46:56 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46:58 asdf:find-sysem will find any registered system (not just loaded ones); asdf::*defined-systems* shows all "found" systems (not just loaded). 15:47:03 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.140.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:47:38 LiamH: except that it is rare to have the system defined but not loaded 15:47:57 p_I: maybe for you; for me it's common 15:49:11 fe[nl]ix, there's a bug in iolib.os referring to undefined variable *environ* 15:49:41 LiamH, then you have used find-system already. 15:49:57 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@118.143.5.5] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 15:50:05 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@118.143.5.5] has joined #lisp 15:50:16 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:07 -!- Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-254.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 15:51:52 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:53:36 argiopeweb_ [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:43 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@118.143.5.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:56 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@118.143.5.5] has joined #lisp 15:55:05 beedit [~zeqw@95.171.151.154] has joined #lisp 15:55:20 -!- beedit [~zeqw@95.171.151.154] has left #lisp 15:55:42 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:55:55 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 15:57:17 LiamH: nickname auto-completion 15:57:47 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 15:59:35 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:07 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:00:25 asarch [~asarch@189.188.150.86] has joined #lisp 16:00:37 -!- benny [~user@i577A1A21.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:03 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:22 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:34 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:20 -!- laynor` [~user@109.76.66.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:05:35 laynor` [~user@109.76.66.27] has joined #lisp 16:08:09 milanj [~milanj_@109.93.74.140] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 -!- revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 16:09:04 -!- HerrBlume [~user@62.96.71.161] has left #lisp 16:11:06 anyone know of a bcrypt implementation? 16:11:40 cl-openid is proving to be shit, so I'll have to take passwords, i guess. 16:11:59 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:05 inklesspen: you can fix cl-openif 16:12:17 I don't have the required knowledge. 16:12:48 All I know is "it doesn't work for these two OpenID providers, one of which is obscure, and one of which is Google" 16:13:42 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 inklesspen: have you tried its mailing list? 16:16:38 nope. 16:16:57 anyway my question was not "how can I make cl-openid work" but "does anyone know of a bcrypt library" 16:18:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@snezana-fe0.wmx.mediaworksit.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:18:38 perhaps you mean blowfish.. see ironclad 16:18:51 no 16:18:54 I do not mean blowfish 16:19:14 what is bcrypt? 16:19:36 ... "It has 'crypt' in its name, the first stop is therefore ironclad." 16:20:00 bcrypt is a password hashing library that uses the expensive setup phase of eksblowfish (an extended version of blowfish) as the hash 16:20:31 it's the default password hash in OpenBSD 16:20:51 adeht: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Crypt_%28Unix%29#Blowfish-based_scheme 16:20:58 i looked at ironclad; it appears to not support it 16:21:22 Then it most likely doesn't exist. 16:21:29 8) 16:21:29 It seems odd that a google summer of code project (cl-openid) would not work with google's openid implementation. 16:22:01 fe[nl]ix: checking it out, thanks 16:22:08 I've seen implementations for python, ruby, erlang, java, perl, etc 16:22:15 i guess i could hook up the c library 16:22:31 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.140.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 16:22:51 rtoym: google just pays for it; they don't exert control 16:23:04 inklesspen: Are those pure-newlanguage implementations? 16:23:13 no, they use the c library 16:23:21 Figures. 16:23:37 I think mostly Lispers go "oh, a C library? Use FFI, man." 16:23:48 Haven't seen many pure wrapper libraries around. 16:24:04 inklesspen: write one with ironclad, shouldn't be too hard, it has bluefish iirc 16:24:14 oh god. 16:24:26 p_l: Blowfish. 16:24:35 *Blowfish 16:24:41 Although  no, that might actually be non-trivial. 16:24:44 the number one rule of crypto is: unless you are a cryptographer, do not attempt to implement an encryption algorithm yourself. they are too easy to screw up in ways you won't notice. 16:24:51 personally I was looking into implementing Skein 16:25:19 inklesspen: BCrypt doesn't require implementing an algorithm by yourself so long as you have a working Blowfish implementation 16:25:34 (the number two rule of crypto is: unless you have a very good reason (having to integrate with existing code that you cannot change, for instance), if you are not a cryptographer, do not use cryptographic primitives) 16:26:07 p_l: i thought eksblowfish was sufficiently different that using an out-of-the-box implementation would not work 16:26:15 even leaving aside that bcrypt only uses part of the cypher 16:26:29 inklesspen: You're forgetting the corollary to both of those rules, though. 16:26:32 inklesspen: afaik it uses full cipher 16:26:43 it just uses them in rounds 16:26:52 inklesspen: If you have a decent spec, you can. :p 16:26:54 (like 64 rounds of Blowfish) 16:27:24 and spec for BCrypt is rather readable, the same for source code to Skein implementations 16:27:25 Odin-LAP: no, you can't. you'll do things like naively use shortcutting string comparisons 16:27:31 or other such things that you don't know not to do 16:27:36 and your implementation will be insecure 16:27:49 unless by "decent spec" you mean something more detailed than even pseudocode 16:27:52 inklesspen: that's why CL is great, because we have pretty good stuff already available 16:28:18 p_l: i find this hilarious, since three minutes ago you were saying "implement it yourself" 16:28:46 inklesspen: Que? Why would anyone use string comparisons? 16:29:28 inklesspen: these rules usually apply to those who don't know them 16:29:30 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 16:29:58 inklesspen: And besides  you're not talking about a crypto primitive. You're talking about crypt. 16:30:08 *cough* 16:30:11 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 16:30:26 Odin-LAP: no, I'm talking about bcrypt 16:30:50 inklesspen: I meant parts necessary to write it, not the "complete implementation" 16:31:02 anyway, this conversation is pretty academic, since I can just use FFI on the bcrypt library, I guess 16:31:16 and also I came up with an idea for how to modify my app to not need passwords at all 16:31:17 so 16:31:17 inklesspen: Same difference. It's trying to do stuff that's not really possible, covering its arse by being computationally intensive. 16:32:17 So, you're not actually looking for the implementation to be secure. You're just looking for it to return the right results. 16:32:17 okay 16:32:52 I have, on the one hand, actual security professionals, whom I know to know about crypto, telling me that bcrypt is the single best option out there right now. 16:33:06 and on the other hand, I have Odin-LAP, some guy in IRC, telling me bcrypt is snake oil 16:33:08 I didn't say there was anything better. 16:33:14 :) 16:34:02 and on the gripping hand, I've actually read more about bcrypt than you have, judging by your conversation to date 16:34:16 inklesspen: bcrypt is *GOOD* 16:34:33 I personally used it for my password purposes back in Ruby days 16:34:51 and now? 16:35:18 inklesspen: didn't have a need for it lately, but when I need to implement a password storage? sure 16:35:38 inklesspen: The basic idea of 'crypt' (and related stuff) is to use computationally expensive stuff in order to slow up anyone using dictionaries or rainbows. 16:35:39 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:44 argiopeweb__ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 16:35:56 Odin-LAP: BCrypt was specially designed for that 16:36:04 p_l: Yes. That's my point. 16:36:39 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 I'm trying to figure out how you get from that to "you're not actually looking for the implementation to be secure" without some side-trips into LSD 16:37:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@220.177.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:37:31 hum. strace -f seems to make sbcl crash... 16:37:46 inklesspen: dunno, I find extreme lack of sleep to be a sufficient drug 16:38:27 inklesspen: The _implementation_ is very different from the algorithm. Nobody is going to be attacking the implementation in this case. So long as it gives you the correct results, something you'd verify with tests, nothing else really matters. 16:38:52 inklesspen: If you can explain to me why that's wrong, please do; I'm always glad to be enlightened. 16:39:03 -!- argiopeweb_ [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:39:04 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:27 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:39:30 easy. 16:39:35 debian. 16:40:18 I now know not to meddle with my cryptographic random number generator. But what else don't I know not to do? 16:40:49 ? 16:40:52 if you implement bcrypt and it's blazing fast, then you might have a problem :) 16:41:00 heh 16:41:36 And *hopefully*, that problem would be an incorrect implementation. :p 16:41:42 Odin-LAP: a year or two back, it turned out that all SSH keys generated on debian for the past few years were very weak, such that you could easily get the private key from the public key. 16:41:49 Odin-LAP: Why is that a result to be hoped for? 16:42:00 this was because some well-meaning fool had removed lines in the random number generator 16:42:09 the keys worked 16:42:11 nyef: Because otherwise it would mean you'd found bcrypt to be worthless for its intended purpose. 16:42:13 they matched the specification 16:42:23 but nobody thought to test how random they really were 16:42:28 Odin-LAP: And... this is a bad thing to discover, why? 16:42:43 inklesspen: but these (prng problems) are the usual problems with cryptographic implementations (there are others, of course.. e.g., timing problems).. hash functions are easier 16:42:44 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@118.143.5.5] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 16:43:09 adeht: bcrypt is a hash function based on cryptographic primitives 16:43:26 inklesspen: most of which are already implemented in ironclad 16:43:34 earlier I gave another example; shortcutting string comparison 16:43:40 my point was, it's too dangerous 16:43:43 inklesspen: if my understanding is correct 16:43:45 nyef: Errr. Because if you didn't, there's no reason to believe there is anything to discover? 16:43:59 I'm not confident in my ability to write sufficiently-strong tests to verify my implementation. 16:44:09 So I won't implement it myself. 16:44:14 argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:19 C library, FFI, that's what I'll do. 16:44:56 inklesspen: that's just obviously the right answer (not implementing your own). 16:45:08 -!- argiopeweb__ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:45:09 sure.. just understand that 20 years old bugs in trusted implementations have been found as well 16:45:49 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 16:45:56 yeah, but what's the probability of an undiscovered bug in (a) a widely-used open-source implementation that many security professionals have examined vs (b) my own custom implementation? 16:46:05 where would you place YOUR bet 16:46:28 sometimes it's problems that aren't likely to show up in a language like CL.. e.g., integer overflows 16:46:33 inklesspen: What's the threat model, and where does a possible implementation bug come into play? 16:47:00 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:02 inklesspen: do you really claim that you can come up with a probability of such a thing? 16:48:12 adeht: I think I can safely come up with a first approximation 16:48:17 inklesspen: In the case of a crypt-style function: Nowhere. It's not actually being used for its cryptographic properties, just its computational complexity. If it returns the correct values -- a fairly easy thing to test for, mostly -- then it's good. 16:48:20 inklesspen: I think you cannot 16:49:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:49:09 bruto [leech@78-2-118-113.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:49:31 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 16:50:44 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:51:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@95-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:55:41 -!- bruto [leech@78-2-118-113.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 16:56:55 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.244.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:04 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.74.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:58:52 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:00:05 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:57 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:00:57 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.148.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:01:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:01:53 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:02:29 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.244.110] has joined #lisp 17:03:28 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:05:12 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:07:17 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:28 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:07:41 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B202750.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:51 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:09:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: away!away!] 17:14:38 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:16:16 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:09 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:22:12 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:16 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:23:27 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:52 _8david` [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:45 -!- ejs [~eugen@228-141-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:24:51 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:19 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:19 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:26 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 17:25:33 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:55 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 17:26:24 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:29:17 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.150.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:38 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 17:31:01 getting there 17:31:04 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:15 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:31:32 *Fare* uses dup2(fd,fd) to detect if a fd is open, and can make an exact list of which fd's to close for posix_spawn 17:33:19 mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:40 mhd_ [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.74.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:07 -!- mhd_ [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:19 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:57 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-176.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:34:59 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:35:45 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37:01 SLIME question: what's the easiest way in the REPL to turn off "faces" (font changes, read only parts of output, etc.)? 17:37:53 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.186.156] has joined #lisp 17:38:45 -!- moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away] 17:39:56 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@203.110.244.110] has quit [Quit: Segmentation Fault] 17:41:04 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:43:58 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.86.186.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:44:04 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:44:29 mhd: font-lock-mode 17:44:30 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:58 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:45:43 mhd: you can also try disabling presentations if they annoy you 17:46:34 benny [~user@i577A7A64.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:11 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:48:17 bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 17:48:21 anyone by any chance have an example of how to render an url using cl-typesetting? 17:48:49 milanj [~milanj_@178.223.146.25] has joined #lisp 17:49:06 Fare: Wait, what? They're not set close-on-exec by default? 17:49:37 Fare: why not just call close and ignore EBADF ? 17:52:31 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:52:31 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:27 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:54:57 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:09 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:55:28 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.177.76.40] has joined #lisp 17:55:56 Fare: or better, (loop :for fd :from 3 :below (sysconf _SC_OPEN_MAX) :do (fcntl fd FD_CLOEXEC)) 17:56:55 carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.8] has joined #lisp 17:56:55 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:22 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:25 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:39 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:01:15 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:42 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:01:53 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:35 -!- mhd [mhd@clozure-D1451B0E.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:03:14 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:04:13 -!- mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:49 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 18:05:57 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:06:00 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:28 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:06:31 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-154-25.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:52 xan_ [~xan@cable-188-2-170-161.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:07:18 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.140.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:10:11 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:10:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:26 M-x font-lock-mode in *slime-repl sbcl* causes "Font-Lock mode disabled" to be printed. But then everything just works the same (purple colored prompt, red output, etc.). 18:14:45 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:15:21 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Actual parens today...] 18:15:23 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:05 SLIME question: what's the easiest way to disable presentations in the REPL? 18:16:22 don't load slime-presentations contrib 18:16:40 moah [~gnu@178.1.120.79] has joined #lisp 18:16:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-21-151.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:17:16 any easy way to disable presentations in a running SLIME REPL? 18:17:36 Fare: herep 18:17:49 mhd: restart it 18:18:41 sounds like a way, sad if that's the easiest. thanks. 18:19:17 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:27 there is a way, but i'm not willing to tell since not the easiest 18:19:45 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:20:13 please? 18:20:16 no! 18:20:24 open slime/contrib/slime-presentations.el and figure out for yourself 18:21:55 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:44 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:07 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:13 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.177.76.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25:32 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:26:31 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:26:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:05 I agree figuring out slime-presentations.el is probably *a way*, and not the easiest, to disable faces. Still, I'd like to know an easier way.... 18:28:15 -!- JoesphL0t [~JoesphL0t@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:40 are you going to disable it on a regular basis? 18:31:56 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:32:31 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082EE6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:36 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 18:32:45 I'd leave it enabled normally, but disable it regularly, e.g., when printing or taking screen shots, or when in a mode when I'm copy/pasting often and don't like some properties that come over (e.g., read-only text) 18:33:25 then i know an easy way: you can pay me and i will add this feature to Slime 18:33:55 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:34:03 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:05 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082EC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:34:21 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:27 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:36:35 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:55 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:10 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 18:40:36 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:03 ejs [~eugen@109.167.72.95] has joined #lisp 18:51:46 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.177.76.40] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 alama_ [~alama@c-75-73-224-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:35 -!- alama [~alama@c-75-73-224-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:36 -!- alama_ is now known as alama 18:53:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:59:00 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:01:45 Has anyone written a binding for the LLVM C API? 19:02:28 Ralith: yes. 19:02:35 Ralith: there's a way to compile code with LLVM in some SBCL branch 19:02:45 http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-llvm.git 19:02:51 that's a binding 19:02:54 sweet 19:03:03 I haven't worked on it for a few months, may need some updating 19:03:07 it's yours? 19:03:09 with new LLVM changes or whatever 19:03:10 yea 19:03:12 awesome 19:03:18 I'll let you know if there's anything screwy 19:03:34 like, for example 19:03:35 warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout. 19:03:38 :/ 19:03:50 can't seem to clone 19:03:55 um 19:03:59 Cloning the http or git url? 19:04:15 http 19:04:16 wups! 19:04:30 trying that 19:04:34 went through fine. 19:04:40 huh, why wouldn't the http url work? 19:04:45 not sure. 19:04:55 still kind of a newbie at git 19:05:08 me too 19:05:14 foom: Whichever hook it is that needs to repack stuff for the dumber protocol isn't enabled. 19:05:28 if that was actually a problem with something I did, I'd have no clue how to fix it. :) 19:05:37 Which seems rather odd, given that it's on repo.or.cz. 19:05:39 -!- bmac [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:05:48 presumably it's a problem with repo.or.cz, and not me, then? 19:06:07 bmac [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has joined #lisp 19:06:13 clone fined through http 19:06:16 cloned 19:06:21 fine, damn 19:06:26 oh, did you try to clone the http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-llvm.git url? 19:06:35 no, http://repo.or.cz/r/cl-llvm.git 19:06:44 I meant Ralith 19:07:00 cause the /w/ url isn't a git repo, it's a html page, despite the .git in the path. 19:07:22 (I wish they'd change that, it's too confusing) 19:07:33 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-94.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:07:43 foom: yeah, I used the /r/ 19:08:44 foom: you don't seem to be using llvm-c much; why's that? 19:08:57 I don't know what you mean 19:09:00 asarch [~asarch@189.188.146.114] has joined #lisp 19:09:23 the llvm C API? 19:09:51 this is a binding for the llvm C api... 19:10:02 then why does it include C++? 19:10:15 because some of the functions that I needed weren't in the llvm C api yet 19:10:25 redline6561 [~yaaic@m4f5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:25 -!- redline6561 [~yaaic@m4f5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:34 ah. 19:10:48 that's only a small part of it, mostly it's just a wrapper around the C API 19:10:49 did you send the wrapper for those upstream? 19:10:53 semyon421 [~semyon@ip-95-221-231-34.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:11:17 Yeah, I think so at least for most of them. :) But I haven't followed up since then. 19:11:25 kk 19:11:30 'cause your copy isn't compiling; llvm::Module::getModule no longer exists 19:11:37 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:46 right. Like I said, haven't updated it for new LLVM since Jan. 19:11:50 there's getModuleIdentifier and getModuleInlineAsm 19:11:54 which one's appropriate? 19:12:19 which function do you mean? in CLLLVM_LLVMModuleProviderGetModule? 19:12:30 yeah 19:12:58 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-252-244.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:14:09 I wanted an llvm::Module object from an llvm::ModuleProvider object 19:14:36 then why does g++ think you're talking to a llvm::Module? 19:14:49 what's unwrap do? 19:14:56 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:05 it turns the LLVM C type into the LLVM C++ type. 19:15:09 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-250-93.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:15:23 neat 19:15:33 hm 19:15:35 maybe they got rid of ModuleProvider? 19:15:36 module providers don't seem to exist 19:15:37 :/ 19:16:15 commenting that out seems to have worked 19:17:00 from the comment for LLVMModuleProviderRef: /* Interface used to provide a module to JIT or interpreter. This is now just a 19:17:00 * synonym for llvm::Module, but we have to keep using the different type to 19:17:00 * keep binary compatibility. 19:17:00 */ 19:17:39 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-252-244.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:17:56 okay 19:18:04 redwyrm [~user@adsl-065-005-176-229.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:58 that certainly makes things easier: it wasn't entirely clear what the heck the point of the module provider was anyhow. :) 19:20:03 heh 19:20:08 rest builds/loads fine. 19:20:51 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.133.145] has joined #lisp 19:22:31 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:16 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:24:21 foom: it would appear that all wrapped functions are of the form llvm:llvmsomethingorother 19:24:25 isn't that kind of redundant? 19:24:49 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:29 Ralith: Yeah. It's not a nice lispy wrapper, it's a trivial transfer into lisp of the C API. I just did (use-package :llvm). 19:27:52 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-61-250.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:55 well, your notes say you lisped up all the array stuff, if nothing else 19:28:11 indeed, I lisped up some stuff that really annoyed me. :) 19:28:35 ^^ 19:28:52 would you be opposed to correcting the naming? 19:29:07 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@ip-95-221-231-34.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:30:06 If there's an easy way to make it happen, I suppose I'd be fine with it. 19:30:36 well 19:30:42 do you want the generated stuff to stay generated? 19:30:48 yes. 19:30:58 okay 19:30:58 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:31:00 I'm not wedded to using SWIG, though, but it's the only thing that actually freaking (almost...sigh) worked. 19:31:05 then I can just move llvm to %llvm 19:31:06 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-96-214.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:31:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-99-141.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:26 and make the package llvm be a very thin lispiness wrapper of stuff in %llvm 19:31:38 how's that sound? 19:31:58 this is how it's done in cl-opengl, for reference 19:32:00 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-10-217.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:03 (although all of cl-opengl is handwritten) 19:32:32 if it requires copying every function declaration it seems not worth it. Something automated would be best. I wouldn't mind sed. :) 19:32:59 well 19:33:07 chances are there'll ultimately be a lot more than just renamed functions 19:33:46 there already is, but only for those categories I mentioned in the readme. 19:33:54 right 19:34:00 and that'd get moved out to the outer package 19:34:03 did your swig/llvm patches for generating get accepted? 19:34:12 we fe[nl]ix 19:34:13 swig hasn't even gotten a comment 19:34:17 sigh 19:34:18 I think the llvm one was. 19:34:20 -!- Blkt` is now known as Blkt 19:34:34 could you try regenerating the stuff with CFFI's function name lispifier enabled? 19:34:35 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-74-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:34:38 that should help a lot 19:34:43 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-250-93.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 19:34:53 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-250-93.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:36:27 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:02 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:38:11 foom: it really wouldn't be hard for me to do this extra layer of wrapping by hand. 19:38:18 I think that didn't work out, but I don't remember why. I don't have the patched version of swig installed right now either. :) 19:38:21 and it's even easier to maintain. 19:38:28 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-181.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:46 *Ralith* vaguely recalls it using #. to generate names, which is really ugly 19:39:28 You could just add a custom mangler to wrap-defcfun which I already hacked into generated/core.lisp via sed. :) 19:40:47 I would really rather have the framework in place for a full-on lispy wrapping. 19:40:54 much easier to maintain than a mishmash of regexps. 19:41:07 -!- redwyrm [~user@adsl-065-005-176-229.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 19:41:10 *sykopomp* really likes cl-opengl's API. 19:41:17 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:41:22 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has left #lisp 19:41:52 llvm:generic-value-to-float compared to llvm:llvmgenericvaluetofloat 19:42:17 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 19:42:17 If you think that's the way to go... I just like that this takes minimal effort to update to a new llvm version. 19:42:19 Joreji [~thomas@95-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:42:28 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42:31 yeah. 19:42:36 foom: how unstable is LLVM? 19:42:54 isn't apple using it internally for OSX now? 19:42:56 pretty unstable I think, but I guess the C API is a lot more stable. 19:43:20 it can't be too terribly unstable, considering how widely used it is 19:43:31 well, ModuleProviders disappeared. :) 19:43:34 :P 19:43:54 the general way they recommend using it is to statically link the libs into your program 19:43:59 any update issues that aren't trivially solved can be workarounded by using the %llvm:stuff too 19:44:10 right. 19:45:24 Hrm. How do you import from one package to another with renaming? Do make a macro wrapper for everything? 19:45:33 -!- xan_ [~xan@cable-188-2-170-161.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:14 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:46:15 import? 19:46:18 what do you mean? 19:46:24 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:10 foom: (in-package :llvm) (defun generic-value-to-float (arg1 arg2) (%llvm:llvmgenericvaluetofloat arg1 arg2)) 19:47:35 -!- laynor` [~user@109.76.66.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:49 laynor` [~user@109.76.66.27] has joined #lisp 19:49:32 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:27 -!- Odditus is now known as Oddity 19:50:35 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has left #lisp 19:53:07 pickles [~paul@d47-69-2-54.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:32 fe[nl]ix, where is type iolib.os::environment meant to be defined? 19:54:39 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-58.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:28 maden [~maden@dsl-157-149.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 19:56:06 oh, it's a class. Nevermind. 19:56:40 francogrex [~user@248.43-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:57:00 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-89-94.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:57:01 is this document of any value or is it just historical? http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp2/TM-3417_400_00_LISP2_LAP_Spec.pdf 19:57:07 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:58:51 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-94.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:59:37 plenty others there 19:59:55 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:01:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@95-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:01:55 Joreji [~thomas@95-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:03:15 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:15 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:34 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.146.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:50 fe[nl]ix, see what I pushed on git://common-lisp.net/projects/xcvb/iolib.git 20:13:07 also, if you want I can push my signalfd code to iolib.os, too. 20:13:59 argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 20:14:36 close-on-exec is linux-only. 20:15:14 and it's not guaranteed that SBCL and all libraries that were used while opening file-descriptors used the flag properly. 20:15:53 also, posix_spawn seems to abort if told to close a fd that isn't open. 20:16:23 (and yes, there's a big race condition here if used in a multithreaded setting w/o CLOEXEC) 20:17:10 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:17:13 fe[nl]ix, is CLOEXEC associated to the file descriptor or file description? only the former makes sense to me, so I assume it. 20:17:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:18:10 a fcntl CLOEXEC, beside not being fully portable, is also open to race conditions in a multithreaded setting if two threads want to spawn at the same time. 20:18:27 CLOEXEC flags are not something you can retrofit. 20:19:13 either they were used properly everywhere, or they weren't, and you shouldn't double guess the application/library code. 20:20:23 file descriptor 20:20:40 it's the only file descriptor flag defined. 20:21:07 see fcntl F_GETFD vs F_GETFL 20:23:35 btw, epoll is a pretty screwy API because of the fd vs file confusion. 20:24:12 what's a less screwy API ? 20:24:51 when I inherit a signalfd, am I notified for my own signals, or my parent's? 20:24:56 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:25:45 (and is there a way to use signalfd with asynchronous signals that doesn't drop signals?) 20:25:52 (I suppose not) 20:25:56 why not? 20:26:18 you block the signal and create a signalfd for it. 20:26:24 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-89-94.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:41 works well, that's what I do -- but under load I may still drop signals, so should consider that for any signal handling event received, there may be many (or zero) actual events to be processed. 20:28:04 oh, you mean drop auxilliary signal data 20:28:08 and the body of the signalfd_siginfo is pretty useless 20:28:18 yes. 20:28:29 SIGCHLD is a freaking disaster, for instance. 20:29:01 (I suppose it's useful for synchronous signals, when a signalfd isn't shared with asynchronous signals) 20:29:14 er, this isn't signalfd specific.. 20:29:25 indeed. 20:29:28 you don't lose more or less signals because it's in a signalfd than with normal signals 20:29:59 yes, sorry for seeming to imply the contrary 20:30:23 it's a general issue with signals, or with low-level interrupts, for the matter 20:30:45 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:57 *Fare* remembers horrors of PIC handshakes necessary to make sure there is no race condition. The hardware designers must be having fun, too. 20:33:40 *Fare* wouldn't want to be in charge of designing hardware interrupts in a CPU so it be efficient, doesn't drop interrupts, and interacts well with bus access. 20:34:12 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:35:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.7] 20:35:46 hey where's the lisp pastebot. 20:35:54 anyways, this is great: 20:35:54 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111692 20:37:05 foom, ouch. 20:37:15 What's the semantics of it, anyway? 20:38:28 I suppose the kernel automatically remove the overwritten dup2'ed fd from the epoll fd, but the userland epoll object doesn't know that because it doesn't intercept kernel calls, and is therefore mightily confused? 20:39:06 no 20:39:16 the kernel itself is confused? 20:39:20 the kernel removes stuff from the epoll set when the file description is closed 20:39:27 not when the file descriptor is closed 20:39:34 but it reports with the file descriptor 20:39:40 that's crazy - 20:39:42 yes 20:39:55 because there's a file description w/o file descriptor. 20:40:08 it still has a file descriptor: it's 0. 20:40:17 is that a kernel implementation bug, or a spec bug? 20:40:22 spec bug. 20:41:19 and the solution is that the user must always make sure to stop polling for a description before he drops the descriptor? 20:41:20 -!- laynor` [~user@109.76.66.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:28 -!- Odin-LAP [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:37 laynor` [~user@109.76.66.27] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179127106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:44:07 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-157-149.aei.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:28 probably the person who wrote epoll didn't fully understand the ramifications of fd vs. file 20:44:34 Fare: yeah. 20:44:46 same as what you have to do with e.g. select or poll 20:44:52 except, now it's not recoverable if you screw up. :) 20:45:11 not that kernel interactions ever are. 20:45:18 this comes up more if you fork() with an epoll fd open. 20:45:37 because you share the same epoll set, but the processes have different fd tables. :) 20:45:56 *Fare* wants his OS with monotonic logic by default. 20:46:31 That is a broken semantics, IMO. clone(CLONE_FILES) should've cloned the epoll sets too. 20:46:33 foom: close epoll fd in child, restart a new one? 20:47:12 Fare: yea, but of course then you need to track externally what the state of everything is supposed to be. 20:47:18 it's all work-around-able, it's just a crappy API. 20:47:36 interestingly, my *emulated* signalfd, when inherited will read signals from the parent 20:47:57 whereas I suspect a kernel signalfd, when inherited, will read signals from the child. 20:48:22 nope, man signalfd says not 20:48:45 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:48:48 it actually explicitly covers that case, amazingly enough. 20:48:58 maden [~maden@dsl-157-149.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 the semantics, again, make little sense, because the behavior of read() depends on which thread is asking 20:49:26 but apparently not which process is asking. 20:49:27 boggle. 20:50:00 my sin is to never have written TUNES. I'm paying everyday. 20:52:45 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7562a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:59 -!- francogrex [~user@248.43-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: erect] 20:54:07 with that digression completed, back to the xcvb farmer. 20:54:36 there's a DSL or two waiting to be born from XCVB, but I don't see what or where exactly. 20:55:13 maybe I should have taken an approach more like scons or something. 20:57:20 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-99-141.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:58:27 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:59:13 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B383.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:00:07 argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:57 mhd_ [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:57 -!- argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:16 *Fare* finds himself using change-class to add fields to an object returned by a library. Yeargh. 21:04:16 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:37 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:05:31 Ain't CLOS great! 21:05:32 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:47 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B383.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:48 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:00 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:08:29 -!- ejs [~eugen@109.167.72.95] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:09:09 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:15 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:15:39 hi, I know I can make this a macro, but for my own knowledge, why isn't BAZ in this scope when I eval this? paste.lisp.org/display/111694 21:16:04 <_3b> clhs eval 21:16:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm 21:16:41 <_3b> "Evaluates form in the current dynamic environment and the null lexical environment." 21:16:52 ok, thanks 21:17:59 egn: even better, use lambda :) 21:19:05 -!- moah [~gnu@178.1.120.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:20 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:24 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:19:28 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:42 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:21:10 sykopomp: yeah, I could and (funcall bar baz)... but my actual function that I'm using has a bunch of (let ...) scoped variables and I didn't want to pass them all. I'll stop being lazy and make it a macro 21:21:30 bmac_ [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has joined #lisp 21:22:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22:08 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:25 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:37 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:23:10 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:24 xinming_ [~hyy@218.73.133.103] has joined #lisp 21:23:41 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:24:01 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 21:24:48 -!- bmac [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:25:17 bmac__ [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has joined #lisp 21:26:52 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.46.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:28:53 -!- bmac_ [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:56 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:33 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:35 jbd [~user@67-198-71-121.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:03 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.177.76.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:45:11 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:11 -!- chainsaw_yum_ [~morgil@fl-65-41-132-249.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:46:13 I've seen this before but I don't remember the fix... clbuild says "error: update was interrupted." and then "Use "clbuild update --resume" to retry. (See also "clbuild skip PROJECT")." but update --resume is no better. 21:46:18 the error message isn't particular helpful. 21:46:34 Well, this seems better than expected. CMUCL time: 3.07 s user;, Fortran 90: 3.012s user, generating 10 million random double-floats. 21:46:39 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:48:02 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-21-203.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:17 ah right, the fix is to rm -rf source/alexandria 21:50:34 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:53 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:31 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:53:56 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:56:00 rtoym: that's a damn good time 21:57:06 p_l: Yeah, I was a bit surprised. But I had to cheat a little to provide a fast Lisp ftruncate function. 21:58:20 The stock ftruncate conses too much. I wasn't sure about the possible argument range so I couldn't use the two instruction version (fp to int/int to fp). 21:59:05 -!- mhd [mhd@clozure-D1451B0E.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:06 -!- mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:17 -!- mhd_ [mhd@clozure-D1451B0E.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:17 -!- mhd_ [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:00:08 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 22:03:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:10:03 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.91.13.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-21-151.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Zzz...] 22:16:31 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:19:16 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:23:34 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:38 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 rtoym: what about the statistical qualities of the numbers generated? 22:31:54 Don't know. The generator is supposed to generate floating-point values that match a provably normal sequence of real numbers. 22:32:22 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:58 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:34:09 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-59-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:35:49 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-59-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:56 ... A "provably normal sequence of real numbers"? Wouldn't that fit something crazy like, say, subsequent ascending bit-reversed integers? 22:39:45 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:40:52 nyef: yes, that would be an example 22:41:15 there are all sorts of easy normal sequences 22:41:59 whose normality is provable in weak arithmetics 22:42:42 *p_l* ponders if an ARM laptop would be a good testbed for SBCL/arm 22:48:59 django_nooob [~math@78.170.201.185] has joined #lisp 22:49:16 Hi 22:49:23 lisp useres 22:49:52 i want to ask you what do you think about Common-Lisp 22:50:24 in what kind of areas is good Common-Lisp ? 22:51:43 programming ? 22:52:04 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has joined #lisp 22:52:15 all kind of? 22:52:30 in web programming for example? 22:53:02 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-139-157.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:07 clop [~jared@64.132.38.198] has joined #lisp 22:53:17 JoesphL0t [~JoesphL0t@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 22:55:18 django_nooob: quite a lot of people nowadays use CL for webapps, probably because it avoids most of the issues with delivery 22:57:27 p_l: what means CL? 22:58:19 common lisp? 22:59:23 ARM laptop? What's that? 22:59:48 laptop with ARM cpu?^^ 23:01:45 does anyone make those? Or is that how you renamed your android cell phone? 23:02:28 Fare: There are such ones 23:02:37 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:00 I know at least of one company in Poland that makes those, and I think I had seen a laptop (or rather netbook) with ARM or MIPS last year 23:03:30 oh i see 23:03:36 the ones that I know from Poland though have a case that is probably more expensive than the electronics 23:03:58 common-lisp avoids most of the issues good 23:04:08 but it is hard to learn CL i assume? 23:04:14 django_nooob: depends 23:04:23 Do you know a programming language already? 23:05:50 yes 23:06:00 i know python for 2 months 23:06:01 the I recommend you start with PCL 23:06:02 i am new 23:06:23 minion: tell django_nooob about pcl 23:06:24 django_nooob: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:06:28 minion: tell django_nooob about gentle 23:06:28 django_nooob: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:06:42 use those two books for a start, in this order 23:06:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:59 but I recommend learning quite a lot about programming separately from the language 23:07:51 p_l: thank you! 23:08:12 it is great that there is something python common-lisp 23:08:13 -!- alama [~alama@c-75-73-224-163.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:09:06 (when it comes to algorithms, "Introduction to Algorithms" by Cormen is quite good) 23:09:18 *Corment et al 23:09:59 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:16 ok great 23:10:38 i like to learn lisp very much because they say it is very different 23:10:42 and powerful 23:10:49 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:13 exu0 [~exu@188.105.114.3] has joined #lisp 23:11:28 django_nooob: it can be, but without grounding in other concepts you might not get a good use of it 23:11:56 i understand, i will make a ground for it then 23:12:08 dysinger [~dysinger@209.172.114.240] has joined #lisp 23:12:14 and currently i am learning django for web development 23:12:51 there isn't anything as structured as Django, at least not at the moment (or not as "polished"), though Weblocks might seem similar 23:13:12 It's just that it's way too easy to make your own stuff in lisp than in many other languages 23:13:52 p_l: i like doing my stuff compare to using others framework or stuff 23:14:05 if it is that way then i am going to love lisp 23:20:08 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178.223.146.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:22:20 -!- nixeagle 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[~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:38 can some lispers help me with darcs? 23:42:38 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.62] has joined #lisp 23:44:09 hdurer^ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:17 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-96-127.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:57 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 23:45:10 bmac_ [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has joined #lisp 23:46:53 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:48:29 -!- bmac [~bmac@72.93.252.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:48:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:48:50 G0SUB [~ghoseb@unaffiliated/g0sub] has joined #lisp 23:50:38 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:50:42 tcr [~tcr@220.177.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 23:51:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] 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