00:02:43 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:23 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 00:04:26 Paraselene_ [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:39 -!- Paraselene [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:27 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 00:10:25 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 00:16:54 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 00:16:59 hm. I seem to have overestimated rucksack's capabilities 00:17:35 having a persistent instance with a slot bound to another persistent instance does not at all do the right thing 00:18:19 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229145122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:22:53 fiveop [~fiveop@g229145122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:28:50 rtoym: that's what i started with, but after the Nth one, locally binding occurred to me 00:29:41 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66302b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:47 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f666803-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 00:33:54 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:39:54 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:44:16 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:58 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f666803-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:47:15 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:38 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:55 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:06 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-149-144.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:45 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229145122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:50:46 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has joined #lisp 00:55:02 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:23 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:06 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.122.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:11:27 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:12:46 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.10.201] has joined #lisp 01:15:12 ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-115.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:36 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:22:03 syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-249.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:23:24 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-116-188-249.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:24:00 Samy [~sbahra@c-68-48-66-31.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:10 chupish [~litestar@ool-182ed347.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:21 -!- chupish [~litestar@ool-182ed347.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:31:31 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-138-154.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:32:36 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C43F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:34:29 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@65.10.101.91] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 01:41:29 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:34 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 01:46:46 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:47:41 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:25 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:53:35 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:15 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-201.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:45 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:57 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:00:26 -!- lusory [~bart@bb119-74-157-111.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:02:08 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:02:17 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-244-9.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:02:53 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-108-89.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:03:50 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-21-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:08:48 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:57 plage` [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 02:09:06 Good morning #lisp! 02:12:04 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:54 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:10 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:00 plage [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 02:20:13 Good morning #lisp 02:20:28 Say hello to my students who are attanding my CL talk! 02:22:03 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:22:39 Hello to students. 02:22:51 hello 02:23:24 Hello 02:23:35 (! (hello students)) 02:23:39 I'm interested. Where is this talk being held? 02:29:40 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:30:57 -!- plage` [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:07 pnq [asdf@AC81C3F5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:10 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 02:40:51 -!- plage [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:30 -!- dullard [~user@93-96-113-8.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:21 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 02:46:08 hohoho [~hohoho@cdu19b185.cncm.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:46:08 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:21 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 02:57:57 -!- jikanter [~jordan@207-229-151-10.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:00:31 plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 03:00:48 I am not having much luck connecting to #lisp today. 03:01:57 So, in fact, the didn't see your greeting! :( 03:03:27 Where are the bots? 03:05:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:05:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:05:18 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.230] has joined #lisp 03:05:40 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.136.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:12 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:08:15 fe[nl]ix: Around? 03:10:23 plage: were your students impressed by #lisp? 03:11:01 -!- silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:04 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:07 plage: yes 03:18:58 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@cdu19b185.cncm.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:06 curi_ [~curi@c-69-181-152-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:12 -!- curi_ [~curi@c-69-181-152-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:46 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:08 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 03:35:36 -!- plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:28 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:40 dysinger [~dysinger@67.201.78.8] has joined #lisp 03:45:37 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-115.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:51:21 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:45 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-201.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:05 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:32 hello 04:02:58 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:46 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 04:06:09 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:10:09 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:13 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.48.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:32:57 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.63.100.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:32:58 -!- stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:33:29 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:36 stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 04:35:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:17 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.102.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:44:28 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:45:27 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:50 -!- pnq [asdf@AC81C3F5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45:59 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:33 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 04:47:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aqahvjpnqczxefbc] has joined #lisp 04:51:28 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 04:51:39 hello 04:52:03 can I change the external format of *STANDARD-INPUT* in sbcl? 04:52:51 a) start it with the right LANG 04:53:36 stassats: what if I want to change it dynamically? 04:55:22 then b) reopen it with a different external format: (setf *standard-input* (sb-sys:make-fd-stream 0 :external-format :koi8-r)) 04:55:59 stassats: thanks! :) Let me try it. 04:57:56 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 04:59:43 stassats: is fd-stream faster than the default stream? 04:59:49 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:00:06 the default is an fd-stream 05:02:06 adding that setf form makes my program faster: it reduces the run time by 5 seconds. Why? 05:02:34 12.992 seconds ==> 7.750 seconds 05:02:37 because you are using a different external format? 05:03:14 no, in the last test I ensure the external formats are the same 05:03:34 because you're using a different element type? 05:04:15 what element type? The one returned by read-char? 05:04:29 element type of a stream 05:05:19 I didn't state that explicitly in the setf form: (sb-sys:make-fd-stream 0 :external-format :utf-8) Does this change the element type? 05:06:54 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-192-151.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:27 (and the outputs are also the same) 05:07:31 and don't forget about buffering 05:08:07 <_3b> DESCRIBE both and compare? 05:08:27 i bet buffering causes the difference 05:08:31 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.136.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:10:21 *_3b* wonders if synonym streams add enugh overhead to be noticable 05:10:34 stassats: do you know what's the default value for buffering when the standard *standard-input* is initialized 05:10:42 echo-area: :line 05:13:12 It seems this is not about buffering: tried :none, :line and :full, and in all the cases the program becomes faster 05:14:00 <_3b> try just setting *STANDARD-INPUT* to sb-sys:*stdin* and see if that is faster? 05:14:04 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-192-151.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:14:46 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:48 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@unaffiliated/g0sub] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:14:59 <_3b> only other differences i saw were bivalent vs not, and replacement character in the external-format 05:15:06 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:15:16 yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:22 G0SUB [~ghoseb@unaffiliated/g0sub] has joined #lisp 05:15:26 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-36-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:15:31 <_3b> (assuming the different functions were due to those) 05:15:43 _3b: I tried (setf *standard-input* sb-sys:*stdin*), but it doesn't become faster (as fast as before) 05:16:28 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 05:17:04 echo-area: try (sb-sys:make-fd-stream 0 :element-type :default :external-format '(:utf-8 :replacement #\replacement_character)) 05:17:18 oh, and buffering :line 05:18:34 yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:55 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:27 ah I see. I think it's because :external-format. Using :utf-8 is (much) faster than using '(:utf-8 :replacement #\replacement_character) 05:20:39 because of 05:21:22 that's good to know 05:21:56 thank you all :) 05:22:20 though if i were after speed, i'd use (unsigned-byte 8) though it's not always easily applicable 05:23:06 -!- rme [rme@clozure-A0F87EC.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:23:06 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-135-165.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:23:24 i once had to write my own streams on top of sb-unix:unix-read 05:25:32 <_3b> is there any way to go from a closure in slime-inspector to the source? 05:25:52 <_3b> (aside from looking at the source location by hand) 05:26:47 if M-. doesn't work, then your lisp doesn't provide a source location 05:27:13 <_3b> M-. on what though? 05:27:38 stassats: never tried (unsigned-byte 8). I'm still a newbie of cl. But that's a very useful clue :) 05:27:45 on a presentation 05:29:12 hm, inspectors presentations look different 05:29:22 <_3b> hmm, i just get an 'edit definition of:' prompt, or complaint about no definition for &rest or {1002ac2b99{> or whatever, depending on where it hit M-. 05:29:43 in any case, you can copy presentation to the repl with M-RET and then M-. on it 05:30:01 <_3b> ah, that works 05:31:09 while i'm looking how to make it work directly in the inspector 05:33:42 oh well, inspector doesn't use presentations at all, so it wouldn't be as easy 05:36:01 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:42:47 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:42:51 -!- tootroot [~baka@omega.talkflack.com] has quit [K-Lined] 05:44:46 -!- spoofy [~lsj@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:45:06 spoofy [~lsj@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 05:45:23 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 05:45:29 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-55.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:57 milanj [~milanj_@109.92.122.245] has joined #lisp 05:46:16 plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 05:46:23 Good afternoon! 05:47:13 hi plage 05:50:03 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:50:25 plage: you were saying ? 05:54:47 min 05:54:50 -!- nekobaka [~baka@c-67-187-153-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:54:53 . 05:55:03 oops, sorry 05:55:12 fe[nl]ix: No longer important. 05:57:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:58:10 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:39 argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 06:02:39 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.122.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:04:10 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 06:04:57 -!- plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:13 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:03 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:11:44 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 06:13:38 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:16:07 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:16:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:18:24 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:19:42 rtoym: dtc said scl's *d-p-d* issues stem from its support of urls as pathnames. 06:23:45 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:24:03 good morning 06:26:27 hi mvilleneuve 06:26:36 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:27:28 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit 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[~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:25 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:57:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755247.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:57 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:03:02 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-qyebwmpmhkqpwyio] has joined #lisp 08:03:11 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:04:49 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:07:53 Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 08:08:31 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:09:22 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:15:55 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:16:43 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:16:59 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:20:59 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:04 what do you use for fast output? 08:22:22 PRINC and FORMAT are too slow 08:22:30 a fire hose! 08:22:59 echo-area: what kind of data are you outputting? 08:23:16 stassats: four strings 08:23:24 repeated many many times 08:24:16 first, try WRITE-STRING 08:25:26 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 08:25:46 stassats: that's very fast (19.701s ==> 6.224s). What is the alternative? 08:26:00 Fare [~Fare@tui75-1-81-57-73-68.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:10 are the 4 strings repeated in the same order? 08:26:35 Phoodus: yes 08:26:36 you could try exploding out combinations and pre-building multiple strings based on combinations of those 4 08:26:39 echo-area: try WRITE-SEQUENCE, but i'm not sure it'd be faster 08:27:13 then create 1 string with all 4 included, and see if it gets any faster. That's 4x less calls out to kernel space 08:27:14 and another way, if you use unibyte strings, treat them as octets and write to a binary stream 08:27:26 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:27:44 (unless there's some batching on the lisp end, I'm not sure of that) 08:27:45 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:28:13 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nbblwhoztywyqicf] has joined #lisp 08:31:11 all these suggestions mean one thing: to output an object fast I need to use manually written output functions other than the more general function FORMAT, right? 08:31:44 the more speed you want, the more ugly your program becomes 08:32:30 are you solving some kind of a programming contest? 08:32:46 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:32:55 hi Fare 08:32:56 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:33:49 no, I'm trying to use cl in my daily work. These programs were writing with Perl previously. And because they process large scale data, I want them to be fast 08:34:04 you can come all the way down to writing parts in assembly, from Lisp 08:34:24 but first, you need to verify what is slow 08:34:44 i/o is usually quite slow 08:35:13 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:29 stassats: is it deemed ugly by you if the code making a program faster is carefully kept in a small place? 08:36:14 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:37:02 depends on how you look at it 08:37:51 fe[nl]ix: iolib is a good example for other libs to follow. 08:38:14 leo2007: ?? 08:38:51 fe[nl]ix: well documented, maintained etc. 08:39:07 there is iolib documentation? 08:39:08 "well documented" it is not :D 08:39:39 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 08:39:40 stassats: yes there is 08:39:41 some 08:39:51 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:40:03 i can say it's easy to use it without documentation 08:40:10 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:40:12 you have sources, after all 08:40:41 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 fe[nl]ix: this is broken http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/new/download.shtml 08:43:23 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aqahvjpnqczxefbc] has left #lisp 08:43:30 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.42] has joined #lisp 08:46:29 this post didn't show up: "iterate, finally" http://paste.lisp.org/display/111313 08:47:37 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:48:33 falls under "then don't do that", if you ask me 08:49:07 yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:51:09 fe[nl]ix, hi 08:51:22 I left Rome, now in Paris, this weekend back to Boston 08:51:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.6] 08:53:12 ... because, if finally is to be allowed within a body form at all, it would seem to me that (iter (with-user-macro (finally x))) should work, even if with-user-macro expands to a (when ...) 08:54:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 08:54:49 An issue somewhat related to the ppcre:register-groups-bind annoyance, where the compiler isn't certain that the regex will always match, but the programmer knows it. If I know that my when is only coming from macro, but will always enter its body, why not use a finally in there? 08:57:26 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:27 But then, why _is_ finally allowed within a body form? It's not allowed in a LET, it isn't affected by control structure IIUC, so it perhaps it should be one of only few top-level-only iterate features. 08:58:25 I think finally (and initially too) should be only allowed at top level iterate forms 08:59:37 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:03 lichtblau: I agree 09:05:10 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:21 Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:05:58 Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has joined #lisp 09:06:09 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 09:07:07 Fare: interested in discussing ASDF configuration mechanism ? 09:07:36 ave Blkt :) 09:08:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.144.44] has joined #lisp 09:08:24 we fe[nl]ix 09:09:10 yet another iterate artifact: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111313#1 09:10:35 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-36-34.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:14:23 Phoodus: Making a large string and then output it is not faster, but slower 09:14:41 (I made the large string by WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING 09:14:42 ) 09:14:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.144.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:15:52 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-twurrbhbuwrcqnuw] has joined #lisp 09:16:00 alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 09:16:35 hmm, what is ITER:WITH for again in the first place? In LOOP, my mental model was that WITH is the workaround for not being able to wrap a LET around the body forms. So that doesn't apply with ITERATE. 09:17:13 -!- randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:18:14 lichtblau, ITER:WITH is for the same purpose 09:18:27 I think iterate should not allow WITH forms within the loop body 09:19:27 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21:12 yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:15 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:25 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:23:06 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:23:11 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 09:24:14 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-36-34.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:35 hi levente_meszaros 09:25:35 hoy Blkt 09:25:35 molqr [~m@202.3.77.11] has joined #lisp 09:25:39 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:27:21 -!- Fare [~Fare@tui75-1-81-57-73-68.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:29:25 hello ppl ... a complete starter here ... i m on gnu/linux with emacs and slime .... and was following this http://ww.telent.net/lisp/according_to/slime.html tutorial ... problem is when i M-x slime i am not getting the CL-USER> promt ... after i M-x slime what i get looks like this ..http://pastebin.com/KSBAtqrw 09:30:16 molqr: you should load slime-repl contrib 09:31:14 ost, i see .... thanks for pointing it out ... but where can i get that? 09:31:52 molqr: (slime-setup '(slime-repl ...)) 09:33:02 ost, many thanks.... when i set up slime on archlinux the instruction told me to put a line (slime-setup) in .emacs but after the first compilation i had removed it.. thanks for pointing it out to me.. :) 09:35:34 ost, yes sir its working now :) many thanks 09:37:11 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:38:08 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 09:39:42 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CBD5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:14 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:15 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:39 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:44:35 npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has joined #lisp 09:47:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-twurrbhbuwrcqnuw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:28 -!- molqr [~m@202.3.77.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:52:55 alexi5 [~alex@69.57.246.87] has joined #lisp 09:54:27 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:55:37 a4k7 [~a4k7@p5DE8F6FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:42 yo 09:55:55 how can I find out if an object is a list? 09:56:11 listp 09:56:34 thx 09:57:42 mxey [~mxey@shells.chaosdorf.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:10 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:07:39 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:11:06 yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:33 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:15:07 ans [~user@84.41.90.123] has joined #lisp 10:26:42 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:27:48 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-59-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:04 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.102.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:33:46 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:33:48 Joreji [~thomas@74-158.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:39:35 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 10:41:59 if you don't allow WITH and FINALLY in the iter body, then you hinder the posibility of constructing convoluted loops whose body is built up using nested macros. one can argue not to do that, but then why forbid it? just don't do that... 10:43:09 i'm all for early warnings/errors, but i don't see how someone uses an iteration clause accidentally (besides package problems, but that's a usual and orthogonal issue) 10:43:38 don't write finally in your macro expansion -- unless you know what you are doing 10:47:43 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.102.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 10:51:45 hdurer [~hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-sanroxyeemgskexq] has joined #lisp 10:52:20 -!- hdurer [~hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-sanroxyeemgskexq] has quit [Client Quit] 10:53:07 I agree with the macro argument. But isn't the desire to write macros forthe iterate body a special case that can be handled similarly to toplevelness in the CL compiler? 10:53:43 only PROGN, MACROLET and friends preserve form toplevelness in Lisp, perhaps the same argument should apply to iterate? 10:55:44 IOW, instead of blacklisting difficult situations like classic iterate does, whitelist the ones that make sense. 10:56:18 hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 11:06:26 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:43 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 11:11:38 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 11:14:17 classic iterate doesn't placklist these. the argument is for the new one to blacklist them, but i don't like the idea of blacklisting just because we haven't seen a useful example. the toplevelness tracking sounds reasonable, though. because i'm yet to see a reasonable example where someone wants to inject a toplevel clause using a macro inside non-teoplevel-preserving control structures... 11:15:30 although i can see how INITIALLY, WITH and FINALLY can be useful inside a macro for some random weird features, e.g. some debugging related stuff recording the evaluation counts of forms, etc 11:16:03 nha_ [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 11:18:46 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 11:29:15 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:29:45 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:05 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 11:31:58 pjb-at-work [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:39 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:15 hdurer`` [~hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-glrntzhgjpicolfd] has joined #lisp 11:38:27 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-glrntzhgjpicolfd] has quit [Changing host] 11:38:27 hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 11:39:06 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:39:54 lichtblau: hrm, how about a macro that can only be used anywhere inside an iterate, and that wants to cache stuff in the dynamic extent of the loop. it needs WITH at arbitrary positions to introduce the binding for the cache outside the looped body... 11:39:57 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:19 Is there an easy way in slime to find the definition of a reader macro? 11:41:30 not in the standard. 11:41:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:45:43 leo2007: short answer: no 11:46:29 attila_lendvai: so I guess I have to grep the source? 11:46:47 i have no idea how you will grep the source for a reader macro 11:47:25 leo2007: you can use get-macro-character or (get-dispatch-macro-character) to find out a reader function name 11:47:46 leo2007: (swank:find-definition-for-thing (get-macro-character #\")) 11:48:06 just what ost said :) 11:50:06 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:13 -!- krl [~user@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 11:51:12 unless the reader is a closure... and assuming that the reader is actually set into *readtable*... 11:51:32 if you want to inspect the state, then... well, use inspect on *readtable* 11:51:44 (swank:find-definition-for-thing (get-macro-character #\.)) returns nil 11:51:56 what lichtblau suggests about whitelisting a number of forms for toplevelness sounds reasonable to me 11:52:12 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-6-14.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [] 11:53:00 leo2007: that's because #'get-macro-character returns nil 11:53:14 levente_meszaros: read my caching use-case again. i want WITH anywhere, even buried under control flow primitives to introduce a binding for a cache unconditionally 11:53:31 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:31 attila_lendvai, your example is quite artificial and does not make too much sense to me 11:54:26 blandest: ok, I have this #m and I want to find out how it is implemented. 11:54:35 you can either make your macro toplevel in iterate, so that it both introduces the binding the the code that fills the cache 11:54:50 but the approaches suggested don't yield results except NIL 11:55:00 or simply separate the two parts, if collecting is under a conditional branch for example 11:56:16 leo2007: what does (get-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\m) return? 11:56:43 ost: # 11:57:18 leo2007: out of luck, grep for "macro-character" 11:57:22 <_3b> leo2007: try M-. or right click and 'find definition' on that 11:57:34 <_3b> assuming you have presentations enabled in slime 11:57:50 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:57:58 levente_meszaros: so, you are arguing to limit some functionality and to make the implementation of a use-case more cumbersome, for... why exactly? because according to your opinion the use case is made-up? instead, show me convincing examples where allowing it will silently introduce hard-to-find bugs... 11:58:31 Thank you all. That's it. 11:58:49 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 11:58:53 Good evening! 12:00:16 -!- nha_ [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:00:35 attila_lendvai, I have not yet seen such a use case, I only got a very vague idea... 12:01:47 Xach: That's interesting. Does that mean no merging with *d-p-d* at all for pathnames? I kind of wonder how urls work in that scheme. 12:03:56 brickhazel [~brickhaze@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 12:03:57 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:09 attila_lendvai, also, you should not allow *something* just because it does not introduce hard-to-find bugs... 12:07:13 it should also make sense and combine with other things in a way that it still makes sense 12:10:42 Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has joined #lisp 12:12:09 rtoym: there's an ext:*default-pathname-base* 12:13:48 Yeah, I was just reading the docs. 12:14:47 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:15:20 i still don't see how and why forbidding it is better then avoiding it. and on the other hand i have struggled with too many random limitations that made a whole lot of sense to someone else... and i still think that my cache example is not far fetched at all. 12:16:06 ...in a single macro, usable anywhere in any iterate loop. 12:17:38 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23:31 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:24:16 unless you have at least one such useful example, it is artificial and vague 12:24:43 -!- mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:55 waynes [~user@218.82.166.223] has joined #lisp 12:25:12 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:50 Hi guys. What are you do with lisp? 12:28:22 waynes: I have a website that generates amusing and/or useful graphics with Lisp. 12:29:13 Xach: gnu common lisp? 12:29:28 waynes: No, I use SBCL on AMD64 Linux. 12:29:29 waynes: programming. 12:30:18 what clisp is most popular? 12:30:19 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:30:41 plage: programming for what? 12:31:08 Xach: Hadn't hear "SBCL" before. 12:31:26 waynes: Anything I program, I program in Lisp. I have a personal calendar application, an application to help me learn Vietnamese, etc, etc. 12:31:27 waynes: In this channel, sbcl is the most popular. 12:31:35 waynes: In other contexts, other CL implementations are more popular. 12:31:39 <_3b`> waynes: clisp is the name of a common lisp implementation, if you want to abbreviate 'common lisp', use CL 12:31:39 aw [~aw@141.76.6.162] has joined #lisp 12:32:29 <_3b`> waynes: and note that 'gnu clisp' and 'gnu common lisp'/gcl are two different things 12:32:37 ic . _3b` and Xach. 12:33:20 waynes: And since you asked, abbreviations such as "ic" "u" etc, are frowned upon in this channel. 12:33:58 I like clisp but I don't know what can it do. 12:34:00 perhaps the reading of an FAQ and a short exam should be required to gain entry :) 12:34:06 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 <_3b`> waynes: CCL is another popular CL implementation here 12:34:18 waynes: What do you like about CLISP? 12:34:18 for example, I can I connect the postgresql by clisp? 12:34:42 plage: It simple. 12:34:54 waynes: postmodern is one way to connect to postgresql from lisp 12:34:59 plage: It's simple. 12:35:13 waynes: in what way is it simpler than other CL implementation? 12:35:23 no death-kittens on Windows 12:35:31 waynes: These are honest questions. I don't know CLISP. 12:35:57 plage: ./configure && make && make install is simpler (in the sense it's more like other unix software) than the installation procedures of some other CLs. 12:35:59 waynes: warning, GCL is *obsolete* 12:36:28 I had never heard of GCL. Last update in 2005. Has a Debian package, though. I'm trying it 12:36:40 Xach: I've actually only managed to build clisp once. libffi and/or libsigsegv was a pain. 12:36:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:37:26 I built clisp many years ago. Just worked. But, IIRC, it's a byte-code, not native compiler 12:37:45 pkhuong: It's a superficial simplicity 12:38:16 it does have some JIT, apparently 12:38:42 clisp.cons.org 12:38:59 is that the GCL? 12:39:08 no, that's clisp 12:39:21 http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/ - is gcl 12:39:25 (you don't want to use it) 12:39:35 rsynnott: thank you. 12:40:02 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:09 Fade: where are you located and are you still interested in that wildfire? :D 12:40:15 Anyway, I think my CL seminar went quite well today. I had some good questions, and some more students who would like to work on CL projects. 12:40:56 plage: do you think something like Hackety Hack could be replicated for CL (or on CL with easy access to CL it's built on?)? 12:41:26 what licence is sbcl use? 12:41:32 waynes: public domain 12:41:34 p_l: I have no opinion because I don't know what Hackety Hack is. 12:41:42 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-115-130.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:41:49 http://wiki.github.com/steveklabnik/hacketyhack/ <--- hackety hack (original), http://viewsourcecode.org/why/hacking/theLittleCodersPredicament.html <--- essay that started it 12:42:03 <_3b`> p_l: might be interesting to try to make as a flash app 12:43:12 p_l: I'm fairly convinced javascript is the way to go for that. 12:43:24 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:23 p_l: No idea. I often have no clue about what makes things popular, or on the contrary what makes things less popular. To me it's all magic, which is why I am not convinced about reproducing "winning formulae" that worked elsewhere. But by all means try it if you think so. 12:44:32 gcl is a little less than half as fast than ccl running (tak 18 12 6). Not a benchmark, but a good measure of function call overhead. 12:45:11 plage: I wasn't thinking about "popular", I was thinking more of "make a LOGO on top of CL with CL bits easily accessible" 12:45:45 p_l: Then I totally missed the point of the URL you gave me. Sorry! 12:45:49 something you could give a kid that got their first computer to play with, but equipped with tools necessary if the kid wants to go further 12:45:52 billstclair: On the other hand, gcl is (was?) the fastest lisp running maxima's test suite. Whatever that indicates. 12:46:16 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.220] has joined #lisp 12:46:19 Cool 12:46:20 rtoym: it indicates that Maxima is one of the few apps that GCL actually targeted... (or the other way around) 12:46:57 given that Maxima still has chunks that would compile under Maclisp, it didn't require ANSI compliance ;-) 12:47:09 aerique: I'd like to try Okra, but I'm having trouble installing ogre from source. Can you suggest an easy way to get the prerequisites for Okra? 12:47:29 p_l: That doesn't follow as far as I can tell. 12:47:39 p_l: Maybe. But that "targeting" went away long ago, especially after William Schelter's death. It's fairly generic Lisp now. 12:49:02 rtoym: yeah, but nearly useless compared to other open source implementations, IMHO 12:50:01 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 12:50:10 By the way, Is the lisp still the import tool language of AI? 12:51:01 p_l: That's a different issue. You were talking about maxima/gcl targeting maxima/gcl. The recent cvs gcl is much better, I here. I haven't tried it because I always have a hard time building it. 12:51:11 Er, hear. 12:51:13 waynes: Depends who is your professor or if you're the head of the project :) 12:51:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755247.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 p_l: lol 12:52:23 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-138-154.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:26 p_l: I see your meaning. 12:52:33 G'morning all. 12:52:33 waynes: It would be much easier if you told us why you think the answers to those questions are important to you. 12:52:39 hello nyef 12:52:46 waynes: in reality? Academia seems to be uniformly Java with exceptions (Edinburgh's has lots of Haskell, some projects/classes in various places use tools that might resemble prolog or Lisp but are still often written in Java etc.) 12:52:49 hi, does sbcl supports declaring return type of a function ? 12:52:59 billitch: yes 12:53:08 and would this declaration imply type assertion ? 12:53:10 -!- a4k7 [~a4k7@p5DE8F6FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 12:53:28 billitch: It's in the standard. Why would SBCL not support it? 12:53:30 clhs ftype 12:53:40 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:53:41 http://l1sp.org/search?q=ftype 12:54:52 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.220] has joined #lisp 12:54:55 plage: no reason. 12:55:13 the standard tells about assertions of declarations ? 12:55:20 waynes: Then you might get answers that are not what you expect. 12:55:21 assertion* 12:55:36 waynes: Such as "yes!" 12:56:17 billitch: whether the type hint is actually used depends on implementation... but I doubt that it generates an assertion (no reason to, IMHO) 12:56:34 at least unless you code with (speed 0) (safety 3) (debug 3) 12:56:46 Well, no reason to beyond SBCL's notion of declarations-are-assertions. 12:57:22 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:57:53 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 12:58:20 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:58 Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has joined #lisp 13:00:05 nyef: yes, so can i assume it is an sbcl bug if return type contradicts declaration ? 13:00:14 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:00:14 plage: OK. I am just curious how is the lisp,the old programe language as C, now 13:00:31 p_l: and i want to declare function return type, not the call, my understanding of clhs is that ftype declares calls to the function 13:00:32 plage: I am not very well in English. sorry. 13:00:55 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-16-229.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:02 clhs: function 13:01:08 billitch: I guess only if the mismatched function signature belongs to a function that is part of SBCL, otherwise it's a bug in the code 13:01:44 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_fn.htm 13:02:43 nand` [~nand@dslb-088-067-059-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:52 Hello. 13:03:08 Hello nand` 13:03:08 hello nand` 13:03:13 I've heard a great deal about Lisp and other functional languages - including things like "things are far easier to program in Lisp" 13:03:16 Hello plage 13:03:37 I'm wondering - what's a good example of something that's easier to implement in a functional language like Lisp than it is in imperative languages like Ruby? 13:03:46 nand`: Problem number 1: Lisp is not a functional programming language. 13:03:57 nand`: Ruby 13:04:22 -!- alexi5 [~alex@69.57.246.87] has quit [] 13:04:28 it can be :) 13:04:32 ruby is as much functional and imperative and oo than common lisp 13:04:34 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:50 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 13:04:53 ruby is less aspect oriented though 13:05:13 I've been getting the impression - I thought Lisp was pure functional though 13:05:13 billitch: AoP is buzzword in CL ;-) 13:05:18 What about other languages like HAskell? 13:05:19 plage: what's lisp is,if it is not functional programming. 13:05:21 nand`: nope, for pure functional look at Haskell 13:05:29 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-115-130.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: now I remember why I don't hang out here] 13:05:33 nand`: i dont think anyone will come up with a sufficiently persuasive example of that. study both languages, write a few programs and see how they differ and feel instead. 13:05:39 waynes: #lisp is pretty interesting that way though. The members are pretty forgiving in the beginning. If you improve, you get accepted. If you stay at a pretty low level you get rejected. And this goes for your knowledge about Lisp as for your knowledge about English. 13:05:45 nand`: Lisp is a family of languages, some with stronger FP leanings (Scheme) some fully multiparadigm (Common Lisp) 13:05:58 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:06:07 -!- waynes [~user@218.82.166.223] has left #lisp 13:06:09 p_l: When I say "Lisp", I was referring to Common Lisp - should have elaborated 13:06:17 waynes: Common Lisp is usually referred to as a "multi-paradigm programming language". 13:07:02 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:07 p_l: yeah, but AoP can need so much efforts to have in other languages, i really like generic functions in clos 13:07:22 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:07:30 pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has joined #lisp 13:07:30 -!- pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has quit [Changing host] 13:07:30 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 13:07:41 nand`: If you meant Common Lisp, it is definitely *not* a purely functional language. 13:07:46 and i think ruby might have easier access to prototype orientedness 13:08:26 the visitor patterns seem so stupid when you know CLOS 13:08:32 plage: I am getting this impression 13:08:38 I did not know that 13:08:57 nand`: you can write a DSL allowing only lambdas... =) 13:09:01 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 billitch: "prototype orientedness"? 13:10:12 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442118.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 13:10:19 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:28 nand`: It's OK. Don't worry about it. You are welcome here as long as you want to learn (Common) Lisp. But if you need to be purely functional, this is probably not the best place for you. 13:10:34 adeht: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming 13:10:43 javascript like 13:10:46 billitch: there are several prototype-based object systems in CL 13:10:55 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:11:01 billitch: and afaik Ruby is class-based 13:11:06 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 13:11:09 adeht: open source ? 13:11:10 plage: It's fine, I was just interested about (Common) Lisp - not functional languages in general, since what I've heard comes from a CL programmer actually 13:11:20 billitch: yes.. e.g., sheeple and KR 13:11:28 adeht: and you can reopen classes, each object has an eigenclass 13:11:37 adeht: nice ! 13:11:40 nand`: That changes things completely. 13:11:45 ... An "eigenclass"? 13:12:16 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 13:12:32 plage: Indeed it does, which is why I was surprised at the revelation. 13:12:41 yes its an instance of the metaclass specific to an instance of the class... if that makes any sense 13:12:42 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:12:52 nyef: eigen is german for "own", if that helps make sense of it 13:13:14 maybe this can help : http://www.klankboomklang.com/2007/10/05/the-metaclass/ 13:13:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 13:14:05 billitch: that's really not how it happens... You can compare metaclasses for EQ. 13:14:12 it make ruby object system quite open (and messy) but very useful due to short syntax 13:14:20 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:15:09 pkhuong: EQ? i was talking of ruby's concept of eigenclass 13:15:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:13 billitch: and asserting that each CLOS instance has such a thing. 13:17:20 Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 13:19:20 erm i may have skipped mentioning eigenclasses are in ruby.. 13:19:34 weird concept anyway 13:20:25 i really prefer CLOS 13:21:27 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:22:56 Blkt` [~user@160.80.128.93] has joined #lisp 13:23:22 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:25 pkhuong: the same in CLOS would mean (defmethod plop ((arg (eq *class-instance*)))) ? 13:23:52 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:24:11 billitch: what's that supposed to mean? 13:26:22 this might be a stupid question: what was the biggest Lisp server app other than those at ITA that you know? 13:26:38 wigflip.com of course! 13:27:07 hmm. the american express thingy, perhaps? 13:27:09 pkhuong: i guess specializing a method on EQ with class instances.. a strange idea made possible by ruby's eigenclass, that is defining methods for single instances 13:27:11 p_l: I saw a pdf describing a Common Lisp trading platform - built on lispworks if I recall correctly 13:27:24 mulander: that sounds like netfonds's product 13:27:27 yeah, that is netfonds. primetrader server stuff. 13:27:34 Xach: yes I believe it was netfonds 13:27:38 p_l: I don't know how big it is, but there's neuroarena 13:27:47 didnt they switch to erlang? 13:27:57 nope, that was vendetta online 13:28:12 and they still use a lot of lisp code 13:28:14 Oh, very cool then. :) 13:28:45 billitch: do you have an example in the wild of that? 13:28:52 p_l: http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/netfonds-primetrader.html 13:29:07 anyway ruby is OT but i was wondering if this kind of specialization could exist in CLOS 13:29:34 billitch: a mixin and a higher-order function makes more sense. Multiple-dispatch and prototypes are a bit messy. 13:29:40 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 13:29:54 adeht: i have to go soon, an example of what ? 13:30:57 cl for server apps makes perfect sense, but it's a shame there's not more of a framework in place to deal with that kind of applications. especially when it comes to the really cool things that are possible with lisp; i always end up with this annoying feeling that there are too many loose ends that are not tightened down sufficiently (hot-swapping in highly concurrent systems? back-out of code if faults found? protocol dsls? logging framework?, distribut 13:31:57 hypno: I'd be more concerned about lower level issues like needs for a lot of memory 13:32:06 pkhuong: i'm not sure i understand fully, i'd like to ask but have to go 13:32:20 how does sbcl enjoy a server app which uses 8 or 16GB of RAM 13:33:15 galdor: sure, there's another thing. heavy io and gcing seems to be "tricky" as well, especially if the lower parts are implemented in pure cl+ffi and not in some wrapper lib. 13:33:18 galdor: It enjoys it very well. In fact, it's laughing all the time. 13:33:21 galdor: depends on the data. 13:33:37 -!- billitch [~billitch@188.106.99.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:00 *_3b`* is more concerned with fitting my sbcl server apps into 256mb :p 13:34:23 galdor: a full GC for 16 GBs for boxed data will likely introduce significant pauses. Unboxed data is special-cased though. 13:34:35 ok 13:35:00 -!- Blkt` [~user@160.80.128.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:19 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:16 <_3b`> pkhuong: does unboxed data reduce the space needed for a full GC, or does it still need room to copy that too? 13:36:27 some people remove the data from reach of normal GC completely... (mmap-ed areas with some weird tricks) 13:37:29 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:51 pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has joined #lisp 13:42:16 Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has joined #lisp 13:44:57 -!- pemryan is now known as pem 13:45:43 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:47 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:46:19 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 13:47:04 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.128.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:47:55 hypno: the day CL gets something like heroku would be nice :) 13:48:46 -!- mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:49:29 p_l: heroku? 13:50:30 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 13:52:10 -!- aw [~aw@141.76.6.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:53:22 ah, some ruby cloud thingy.. 13:53:23 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:54:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B6CCBC.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:54:21 well, yes, that is probably nice too, but way to confining compared to an inlanguage defacto standard for doing these things. or perhaps, those issues are orthogonal in many ways. 13:54:39 argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 13:56:15 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56:19 -!- segv [~mb@p4FC1B21B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: segv] 13:59:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:01:45 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:55 hypno: "these things"? 14:05:20 hypno: heroku is an example of hosting service, Rack and others would be probably closer to what you meant, I guess? 14:05:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:50 plage: the stuff above for example? hotswapping stuff? protocol dsls? reject faulty code? automatic degradation of services (and hence code) if it errors? distribution? logging? tons of stuff that make CL into a production system and environment and not just a language. i consider it onpar with an OS and as such, should never ever crash or go into some wacky state. 14:06:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:07 hypno: sounds like you want Erlang OTP 14:06:22 just with CL instead of Erlang 14:06:43 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:08:15 well, erlang sort of comes close in many ways. i'm not particulary fond of the laguage itself, let alone all of the moronic "benchmarks" which supposedly "proves" something if you have an axe to grind and a mind to the likes of john harrop, but yes, i do think erlang gets a lot of things very right in this regard. 14:09:59 hypno: I don't care about benchmarks too much (though recent OTP - iirc >R12 - on Sun's T2? squeeee!!), but OTP was kinda built specially for "non-stop" applications 14:10:00 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:11 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:10:16 at the same time, i think the very same stuff erlang does well, CL /can/ do, of course, but has not such a worked out, streamlined strategy to go using it.... 14:10:22 however I doubt you could pull that with mutable data 14:11:31 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node351.html <-- does anyone happen to know what #M is? 14:12:25 It says right there 14:12:27 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 14:12:34 mathrick: shorthand for map-fn 14:14:06 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:14:57 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:15:05 I really like series, but I still think it isn't a complete replacement for iteration constructs. (loop while x do ...) is particularly annoying to replicate 14:15:52 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:17:24 davazp [~user@13.Red-79-154-141.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:26 maden [~maden@dsl-148-31.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 14:18:58 -!- [df]_ [~df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:19:46 aw [~aw@xhss48-406aa.wh13.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:01 dlowe: oh, I was looking for it and missed 14:25:05 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 14:28:49 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:30:59 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:22 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:31:29 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 14:33:00 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 14:33:11 maxigas [~user@host86-173-4-249.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:21 Is there a function in Common Lisp to "unpack" or "explode" a list? I am thinking about something like (list 1 2 3 (explode (list 4 5 6))) => (list 1 2 3 4 5 6) 14:35:00 APPLY? 14:35:48 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:36:10 (list* 1 2 3 (list 4 5 6)) => (list 1 2 3 4 5 6) 14:36:21 well, alexandria:flatten works as well (flattens everything into a single list, like this: (alexandria:flatten '(1 2 3 (4 5 6))) => (1 2 3 4 5 6) 14:36:42 dlowe: thanks, that is exactly what i need. :) 14:37:06 maxigas: just keep in mind that the lists will share structure 14:37:33 -!- Samy [~sbahra@c-68-48-66-31.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:38 dlowe: what do you mean? 14:38:17 maxigas: it's linked lists, right? 14:38:43 dlowe: yes, i think i understand the concept of linked lists. 14:38:54 maxigas: so you have a list 4 -> 5 -> 6 14:39:20 maxigas: what list* does is to add 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> list at end 14:39:42 so your shorter list is part of the longer list 14:40:05 dlowe: something like (cons 4 (cons 5 (cons 6 '()))) 14:40:54 dlowe: doesn't become (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 (cons 5 (cons 6 '()))))))? 14:41:04 maxigas: I mean that it will do (let ((x '(4 5 6))) (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 x)))) 14:41:46 aha 14:42:03 this isn't going to matter if you treat your lists as immutable 14:42:28 but? 14:42:36 but if you start messing with the contents, it will matter a great deal 14:42:54 if you expect there to be two completely separate lists 14:43:49 ah no, i want them to behave just like a list that would be created as (setf mylist '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) 14:44:19 maxigas: note that mylist would be immutable 14:44:36 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 14:44:38 you could just do (list* (list 1 2 3) (copy-list (list 4 5 6))) 14:45:30 and yeah, quoted lists should be considered immutable 14:45:50 OK, i think i got the idea. i'll have to look into mutable and unmutable lists then, but i can look that up in the docs. :) 14:46:38 If you're just learning, I'd stick with immutable lists for now. It'll become clear pretty quickly when you need to know the difference 14:46:51 basically, all literal objects are immutable 14:47:19 thank you very much 14:48:04 and per se, there is no distinction between mutable and immutable lists 14:49:20 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:51:34 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-62b1e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:53:08 stassats: other than "the consequences are undefined if ..." and the resulting utter confusion when you actually invoke it :) 14:53:27 and technically the implementations are allowed to place literal in read-only memory 14:53:32 *literals 14:54:54 mathrick: i mean there is no such data type as "immutable list" 14:55:48 yeah, I know what you meant, I just wanted to stress that you're still supposed to keep track of what you're allowed to mutate 14:55:58 ...which is one sore point in the CL standard, really 14:56:30 Submit an immutable cons type to CLtL3 :) 14:56:52 making literals indistinguishable from other instances, yet explody when handled was not a good decision 14:57:04 dlowe: it's hard :) 14:57:11 and you'd need immutable arrays too 14:57:21 mathrick: mutating literals is fun! 14:57:22 xD 14:57:26 no it's not 14:57:41 *p_l* is not responsible for any weird things happening due to following that statement 14:58:16 mathrick: on SBCL it is, no matter how unreliable it is. It was just plain funny :D 14:58:19 -!- moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju 14:58:21 p_l: making 2 + 2 = 5 is fun too, but it still has no place in a sane language 14:58:35 Actually, what's really fun is getting a literal reference to mutatable data. 14:59:02 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:59:09 p_l: it's made extra funny by the fact that compiled literals and REPL literals seem to be separate in SBCL. So you will get utterly mistifying bugs you can't reproduce in REPL 14:59:19 nyef: wha? 14:59:39 i'd ditch immutability of literal lists and vectors from CL, it only adds unnecessary confusion 15:00:04 The function holds a pointer to, say, an array in its literal vector, but the array is separately allocated, and thus doesn't count as a literal for mutability purposes. 15:00:24 Saves a dereference of a pointer value at runtime. 15:00:52 nyef: but SBCL doesn't enforce immutability, so what's the difference? 15:01:11 sbcl does coalesce constant forms 15:01:27 Having a separate pointer to the array also means you can mutate it from outside the function. 15:01:37 Or use it in multiple functions without a closure. 15:02:05 *p_l* had crazy bugs by modifying literals already 15:02:17 mathrick: that distinction is the standardized distinction between compile and compile-file 15:02:19 nyef: you say the array can't be moved? 15:02:26 compile-file is allowed to coalesce constants, compile is not 15:02:34 Xof: oh, right 15:02:47 doesn't make the bugs any less mistifying, though 15:02:56 stassats: Where did I say that? 15:03:29 nyef: scratch that 15:03:29 The pointer dereference saved is a symbol value slot or similar. 15:03:56 (Now, my having used an array in static space for this is an entirely separate matter.) 15:04:45 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:05:47 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:06:00 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 15:06:36 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-qyebwmpmhkqpwyio] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:14 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:07:28 stassats: it only adds confusion because you can't make immutable non-literal lists and vectors. 15:07:32 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:43 it would be nice if you could... 15:08:02 (also, that the compiler doesn't actually enforce the immutability is a bummer) 15:08:51 Actually, enforcing that immutability would be possible with a bit of VM work. 15:09:04 Yea, I've thought of that. It'd be nice 15:09:23 That's what C does: char *foo = "asdf"; 15:09:28 Essentially, extend the GC to allow for truly read-only pages, with a way to write to them anyway for the loader... 15:09:30 foo[0] = 'a'; -> segfault 15:09:57 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 15:10:19 aha i found a caveat: observe this: (list* 1 2 3 (list 4 5 6)) => (list 1 2 3 4 5 6) BUT (list* (list 1 2 3) 4 5 6) => ((1 2 3) 4 5 . 6) 15:11:28 maxigas: Yes. And being surprised by this behavior means that you have more to learn about how LIST and LIST* work, as well as possibly how lists are stored in memory. 15:12:38 nyef: i am just doing that. :) 15:14:13 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:04 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:17:16 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-21-217.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:20:58 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:16 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 15:30:01 molqr [~m@202.3.77.11] has joined #lisp 15:30:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:31:25 hello good ppl ... a beginner with gnu/linux and emacs slime with sbcl here ... now that i have slime-repl buffer ... how do i close it in the right way? 15:31:59 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:32:45 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 15:32:55 C-c C-d worked for me (i am not sure if it is the "right way") 15:32:59 molqr: ,s 15:33:00 Is it true that it is not possible to write a recursive function with lambda? For example ((lambda (x) x) 0) => 0 works but I cannot imagine ((lambda (x) (if (> x 0) (lambda??? (- x 1)) 0)) 10) 15:33:11 maxigas: look up "y combinator" 15:33:20 dlowe: OK 15:33:50 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-16-229.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:34:28 maxigas, C-c C-d does not work for me.. emacs 23 here ... C-c -C-d expects me to write something else also... 15:34:30 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:48 dlowe, sorry but is that a command? 15:34:57 molqr: yes. 15:35:07 molqr: in the SLIME repl, at least 15:35:36 dlowe, wonderful.. it worked :) thanks so much 15:36:20 -!- davazp [~user@13.Red-79-154-141.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:47 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 15:37:08 btw, someone mentioned lack of tools for server work... 15:37:27 ah, hypno 15:38:26 hypno: would you consider an "application framework" in terms of basically wrapping all necessary initialization etc. into simple package that can be reused (for all kinds of applications) a good start? 15:39:32 I mean things like a wrapper that would support setting site-specific settings from standardised locations, parse arguments and in case of server code, daemonize and start swank? 15:41:33 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 15:42:13 -!- molqr [~m@202.3.77.11] has left #lisp 15:44:06 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:38 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 15:44:43 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:46:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:48:08 p_l: well, sounds like a better version of init files, so yeah, i guess. 15:48:40 -!- maxigas [~user@host86-173-4-249.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:51 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-147-223.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:26 varjag_ [~eugene@219.61.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:54:37 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nbblwhoztywyqicf] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:55:36 -!- benny [~user@i577A37A1.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:09 chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 15:56:13 p_l: beep 15:56:49 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:57:23 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:43 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:02:30 chrisdone: pong. Didn't have much time to work on the sandbox, but I can draw a spec sometime this week 16:03:01 (been slightly ill) 16:03:14 -!- pjb-at-work [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:04:18 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@67.201.78.8] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 16:07:32 hypno: I've been also looking into multi-environment management, so that multiple different versions of packages could be used for different projects 16:07:38 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 16:07:44 (basically making way for tools to manage configuration) 16:08:15 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 16:10:14 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-36-34.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:10:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-158.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:55 p_l: hmm. that sounds cool. do you mean within the same cl image?! 16:11:11 regarding init files, I was planning on adding logical pathname translations into "framework", so it would have pre-defined translations for certain paths 16:11:28 hypno: unfortunately that would require special support from implementations 16:11:38 (.NET has something like that, actually) 16:12:27 OTP also supports something similar, but it has to do with immutability of data/code in Erlang 16:12:52 Some Erlang systems have indeterminate version numbers because of that ;-) 16:12:59 heh 16:13:56 Kae [b@c-94cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:14:17 they have apps where they know where is lower bound of version number and where is upper, but nothing about distribution of it in-between ;-) 16:16:34 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:00 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:17:27 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:54 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:23:00 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-226-205.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:02 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-226-205.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:06 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442118.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:23:10 milanj [~milanj_@178.223.159.225] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 ... If they have bounds but don't know the distribution, do they assume a gaussian distribution, an IID distribution, or what? 16:24:00 nyef: a mad fractal 16:24:00 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 16:24:10 Ah. Pathological monsters? 16:24:40 nyef: depends how big rate of failure you expect and how many operations are running, I guess 16:27:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:28:44 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:52 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:29:18 hdurer`` [~hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-tcmlnelvpffaionn] has joined #lisp 16:29:41 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 defun [~michael@61.sub-75-246-197.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:46 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:33:13 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-226-205.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:21 can anybody tell me where I'd find normal salary range for lisp programming jobs? 16:33:58 *_3b`* suspects there isn't enough of a sample to estimate it usefully 16:34:44 I've been asked to provide my expected salary range and have no idea what to say 16:35:08 defun: that has more to do with what you want/need than what other people are getting. 16:35:26 that's always a tricky question :) 16:35:30 <_3b`> yeah, location is probably the important question there 16:35:51 location is denver colorado 16:35:53 defun: ask them to propose a salary? 16:36:10 defun: what would a non-lisp programmer at a similar level around there be getting? 16:37:07 somewhere between $80-90k I think 16:37:13 -!- fnordus [~dnall@S0106002129a44223.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:37:18 defun: double that 16:37:55 -!- aw [~aw@xhss48-406aa.wh13.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 16:38:01 i like the idea of asking in a public chat room where the interviewer might be sat reading 16:38:06 "range" is particularly amusing.. tell them there's no upper bound 16:38:07 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:38:58 chrisdone: have any better ideas? 16:39:00 defun: what kind of position? 16:39:21 defun: is that secureoutcomes.net? 16:39:29 <_3b`> chrisdone: if it were somewhere worth working, i'd hope they'd give a hint in that case :p 16:39:39 p_l: yes 16:39:59 fe[nl]ix: that might be ambitious 16:40:08 <_3b`> heh, nice web page there :p 16:40:08 defun: ... given the type of work, I'd start thinking of $150k... maybe down to $120k depending on benefits 16:40:35 _3b`: :P 16:40:57 benny [~user@i577A2CCB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:09 p_l: thanks! 16:41:11 defun: the position is important, there. 16:41:20 are you going to be a lead? 16:42:29 bougyman: no, it's for the more junior of the two positions they have open 16:42:50 defun: programming positions in the 6 digits just aren't as prevalent as they used to be. 16:43:00 _3b`: it is particularly funny given the name "secure outcomes" 16:43:04 -!- nand` [~nand@dslb-088-067-059-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:43:11 i've got high-end java people working for well under that, ruby and C, too. 16:43:20 only two lispers on my team, neither are 6 digits. 16:43:45 bougyman: where do you live? 16:43:46 bougyman: what are they paid and where are you? 16:43:58 im in dallas, similar cost of living and salary as denver. 16:44:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:44:17 10 years ago most of this team would be 100k+ 16:44:37 i'm getting resumes for new people at 60k to replace them, though. 16:44:49 ouch 16:44:52 it's market that drives salary, and it's an Employer's market, atm. 16:45:00 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:45:22 defun: you just went from rich to bankrupt in 5 minutes! 16:45:31 that being said, shoot for the moon. 16:45:57 madnificent: appears that way, huh? 16:45:58 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:00 heh. 16:46:02 i'd rather pay 95k to someone asking for 150k than 80k to someone asking 80k. 16:46:03 make sense? 16:46:11 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:46:21 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 16:46:26 bougyman: not really, but I'm listening 16:46:28 starting salary in Norway for a CL programmer - $53k ... 16:46:41 defun: but maybe, bougyman is your new employer! And maybe he's just getting the price down 16:47:28 madnificent: true enough... 16:47:31 defun: i understand that someone's self-worth (desired salary) is going to be what they know they should be earning. the 80k guy knows he's only worth 80k, the guy asking for 150k knows (or thinks) he's a badass. 16:47:35 p_l: I'd work there for less.. og jeg skal lære norsk, også ;) 16:47:40 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:47:43 i'd rather steal a badass at 95k than hire a grunt at 80k 16:47:45 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:11 bougyman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect 16:48:15 vi snakker norsk 16:48:57 it's a bit of a chess match. 16:49:13 I see... 16:49:15 i turn down every offer, twice. 16:49:17 Does anyone use elephant and managed to get it working with db4.7 or 4.8? 16:49:19 I need an agent :-) 16:49:22 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:49:50 thanks guys! gotta run... 16:49:51 my current gig offerred me 20% less than what I ended up agreeing to. 16:49:55 -!- defun [~michael@61.sub-75-246-197.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:50:03 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 16:50:55 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:20 bougyman: what about us fools that do this for fun? 16:51:36 what's our self-worth? :P 16:52:01 p_l: you're free to write a usocket-compat system for iolib :D 16:52:21 derrida: priceless 16:52:50 i support many open source projects, too. 16:53:19 that was part of the deal when I agreed to come on to this place, they let me support open source projects financially and with manhours. 16:53:25 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 16:53:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:53:43 fe[nl]ix: I probably will 16:54:00 usocket didn't support IPv6 last time I checked, while IOlib did 16:54:12 And I want hunchentoot on v6 :) 16:54:35 then better write a hunchentoot iolib backend 16:54:50 derrida: I was using it a while back with 4.7 16:54:57 I don't remember having any trouble 16:55:03 (this was on MacOS) 16:55:03 damn 16:55:16 bougyman: what do you do about the problem of under a bus syndrome for lispers? 16:55:43 dallas has so little public transportation, not an issue? 16:56:05 rsynnott: hm, i'll try again today. it was at the end of the night last night :) 16:56:06 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:14 derrida: which OS and CL are you using? 16:56:14 i'm not saying lispers are prone to getting hit by buses, mind 16:56:26 rsynnott: (arch)linux/sbcl 16:56:29 fe[nl]ix: lots of stuff uses usocket, though, so I'll probably do both (update ediware for iolib and adding usocket-compat) 16:56:36 chrisdone: what do you mean? 16:56:41 derrida: hmm, that's pretty standard. Have you asked on the list? 16:56:57 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:57:04 not yet, i'll dig deeper now 16:57:58 bougyman: well if a lisper becomes unavailable (e.g. hit by a bus) then you have a codebase that's got to be maintained by a quality lisper. the lisper population is low 16:58:00 you're using the darcs version? 16:58:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:15 chrisdone: it's not that low. 16:58:30 that's the same issue i've had with good ruby programmers, though. 16:58:44 if an emergency happens, i just steal someone from the open source world. 16:59:08 fair enough 16:59:52 So, essentially, the job supply exceeds the demand? 17:00:12 Err... other way around. 17:00:19 The job demand exceeds the supply? 17:00:30 funny, i read it as you intended and didn't notice 17:00:35 same 17:00:52 nyef: I think it resembles Emacs' learning curve due to amount of lispers and lisp jobs and various weird things related to that which muck things at small numbers... :P 17:01:30 Heh. Probably. 17:01:47 that's the real problem I have 17:01:53 finding lispers who are vimmers. 17:02:36 I'll use vi in a pinch, but give me my emacs, please! 17:03:03 Standard Lispers use ed 17:03:05 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 17:03:12 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:03:12 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:03:50 bougyman: why specifically vimmers? 17:04:05 Surely it doesn't particularly matter what the other people on a team are using as an editor? 17:04:14 adeht: nope, standard lispers use ZMACS, EMACS and TECO 17:04:26 ed was for C users :D 17:04:29 rsynnott: it's offensive when other people use different editors. 17:04:42 p_l: but ed is the standard editor. 17:04:43 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-229-110.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:05:02 <_3b`> p_l: cl:ed is for C users? 17:05:15 rsynnott: it absolutely matters. 17:05:21 we pairs program. 17:05:28 you can't pairs program on different editors 17:05:33 bougyman: sure you can. 17:05:43 _3b`: no, /bin/ed 17:05:45 bougyman: you only need one person on the keyboard at a time. They can use their favorite editor. 17:05:54 bougyman: everyone can learn emacs... certainly with pair programming 17:05:59 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12-rhwh-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 sykopomp: we pair with shared screens, not shared keyboard. 17:06:10 madnificent: i didn't say we don't know emacs. 17:06:16 vim is the preferred editor. 17:06:22 and the most efficient, for our team. 17:06:24 bougyman: it doesn't even take that long. They're used to clicking and having only C-c, C-x and C-v to their disposal... then you can just augment that. 17:06:25 says a lot. 17:06:30 it's a bit different with vim 17:06:33 ah 17:06:37 bougyman: vim is nowhere near as efficient as emacs for lisp code :) 17:06:40 *rsynnott* is not a great fan of pair programming 17:06:45 sykopomp: it is for us. 17:06:48 *madnificent* loves pair programming 17:07:03 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:07:03 how do you get the indentation right with vim? :) 17:07:07 rsynnott: me neither.. I guess it works for some, not for me though. 17:07:14 bougyman: it's not very good for lisp. 17:07:17 by using the standard lisp ai. 17:07:23 hmm 17:07:23 although I totally support projects that try to get it to that point! 17:07:24 sykopomp: that's a biased statement. 17:07:32 the standard lisp ai?! 17:07:40 bougyman: no, that's an informed statement based on the fact that there's no acceptable alternative to SLIME + paredit for vim. 17:07:44 none of us limp users feel at all crippled. 17:07:51 sykopomp: have you used limp? 17:07:55 bougyman: limp is actually usable these days? 17:07:59 slime, though, knows when something is a (with-bla style macro, and indents appropriately (and differently) 17:08:06 I was under the impression that it was incredibly crashy and unusable. 17:08:09 sure, it's a hack, but the functional results are an adequate lisp environment. 17:08:15 it's not crashy. 17:08:20 and definitely not unusable. 17:08:25 is it as featureful as slime? 17:08:27 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:39 maverick_ [~maverick@122.166.187.239] has joined #lisp 17:08:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:08:44 sykopomp: it's as functional as RIDE, the ruby ide we use that's based on limp. 17:09:16 very few things ARE as featureful as slime, I find :) 17:09:50 i think the individual's editor choice is a personal one, based as much on them as on the editor itself. 17:09:56 *nyef* finds that some of the features of slime just aren't good enough to use. 17:09:56 and we happen to be vimmers. 17:10:15 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-13-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 that's curable! 17:11:03 nyef: such as ? 17:11:22 for me personally, it's a speed thing. 17:11:30 every function i do is speedier in vim. 17:11:53 i feel the same way about dark themes 17:11:53 i don't think anyone wants a "vim vs. emacs" debate here 17:11:59 :P 17:12:01 from opening a file to searching or search/replace or tab completion or project browsing or _insert task here_ 17:12:08 stassats: 'cept maybe the emacsers :) 17:12:19 adeht: neg 17:12:19 fe[nl]ix: Presentations. 17:12:21 adeht: after all, we know we'll win 17:12:22 derrida: light themes are obviously superior. 17:12:27 madnificent: exactly 17:12:34 schmrkc: but .. but .. black is faster 17:12:54 derrida: but not as many features 17:13:17 you've got me there. 17:13:36 *schmrkc* will go celebrate with some coffee. 17:13:39 is emacs really that much slower? I remember doing things in vim, but it never occured to me that emacs was really slow 17:13:45 :D 17:13:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:13:53 it's slow when you're on meth 17:14:24 it's pretty easy to benchmark, madnificent. 17:14:27 see for yourself. 17:14:53 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 17:15:08 bougyman: but is it significant? It may well be 10 times slower, that still makes it more than fast enough for all my tasks... So I'm wondering what you're doing that would make it that much slower 17:15:10 I suppose it's just that if you're used to Vim you'll be slower with emacs until you get used to it 17:15:13 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:25 and vice versa 17:15:54 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:16:04 bougyman: you mean to enter the commands then? Or the execution time of the commands? 17:16:05 madnificent: i suppose like some of you i'm in an editor most of the day. 17:16:10 so seconds add up. 17:16:20 SECONDS? 17:16:26 madnificent: execution time, also the amount of keystrokes necessary for a command. 17:16:31 yes, 60 seconds is a minute. 17:16:35 they add up. 17:16:36 nyef: anything else ? 17:16:39 you can't tell me that there are *seconds* of difference between emacs and vim for search/replace. 17:16:51 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 17:17:09 That was the big one for me. 17:17:23 I'll stay out of this trolling for once (: 17:17:25 nyef: anything in particular about them? 17:17:31 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 17:17:51 stassats: Being able to define their appearance, for starters. 17:17:56 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2-dev] 17:18:06 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:18:18 bougyman: I've always found :%s/ to take a lot of time... emacs made that a tad easier for me. Besides continously having to change the mode with VIm was quite nice when I used it. I switched for lisp + dvorak 17:18:31 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:45 nyef: you can customize its face 17:18:54 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node362.html <-- okay, that confuses me 17:18:56 -!- chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:10 stassats: On a per-object-type basis? 17:19:35 no, but you really want to do that? 17:19:37 madnificent: If you really want to be a vimmer, you're never in edit mode. Think of it like photoshop. Edit mode is the exception, not the rule. 17:19:39 Yes. 17:19:55 nyef: what's your use case? 17:19:59 herbieB: I know, but from time to time you're actually entering code 17:20:06 rsynnott: pair programming can be incredibly efficient, and personally I find it helps me focus, but there's a huge danger of mutual distraction at the same time 17:20:10 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:20:25 I don't believe in the "all code must be pair-programmed" bullshit though 17:20:39 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:45 As a simple example, being able to have icon objects show up graphically in my repl buffer. 17:20:58 nyef: I don't think I've ever used that 17:21:00 madnificent: Oh, ok. Yeah, I don't really think about things in term of time from edit mode. 17:21:01 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-226-205.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:07 It's trivial to do in CLIM, but it's impossible to do with SLIME. 17:21:16 madnificent: I also so rarely use %s. I used to use it a lot, but I don't anymore. 17:21:27 nyef: well, it just a SMOP 17:21:56 Sure, but there aren't even -hooks- for it, so it's invasive wrt slime and can be broken without warning when you update. 17:22:39 HG` [~HG@xdslfa157.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:53 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfa157.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:53 dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-zynewfqkwlamxzcr] has joined #lisp 17:23:38 p_l: where did you get the 53k$ figure for norway? I find it extremely hard to believe 17:23:47 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 17:24:03 I was working here in DK, as a PHP programmer, and I was making more than that 17:24:10 and Norway is much more expensive than Denmark 17:24:24 i was thinking about fixing presentations, because they're mess with the repl in unpredictable ways 17:24:34 are we talking before or after taxes? 17:24:40 mathrick: from a friend who applied to a GPL-only shop 17:24:43 madnificent: before 17:24:44 mathrick: before taxes 17:24:50 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 17:24:52 p_l: oh, copyleft? 17:24:54 aw [~aw@141.76.6.162] has joined #lisp 17:24:55 yes 17:24:57 p_l: that seems very low, alright 17:25:06 ah, there are gpl-only shops? 17:25:09 doing lisp stuff? 17:25:14 I missed the chance to work for them by my own stupidity 17:25:15 he did mention that it was a little low, but they also mentioned 20% raise in a year :D 17:25:18 funny; you don't see much gpl lisp stuff 17:25:42 rsynnott: probably because it's kinda hard to distribute libs that are GPLed :) 17:26:00 p_l: I'd work for that pay, but I still think it's low, especially for norway 17:26:02 *rsynnott* is increasingly unconvinced that the gpl is a good idea at all 17:26:10 rsynnott: so am I 17:26:16 LGPL is good for libs 17:26:21 -!- maverick_ [~maverick@122.166.187.239] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:26:27 well, I can see GPL being used in apps and apps only 17:26:41 but in Lisp, you rarely ever have something that can't be made into a library 17:27:06 even the lgpl is a bit weird; theoretically if you're not using the library as a dynamically linked library you have to redistribute the means to put the app together 17:27:10 also "linking" is a stupid concept and basis for judging derived works, and that's before you even consider applicability to lisp 17:27:17 which can be very difficult in some environments 17:27:36 rsynnott: the whole linking business is stupid, though I can see where they're coming from 17:27:39 mathrick: I suspect it simply isn't applicable to lisp as worded; it's not something you can do 17:27:44 I'm all for exceptions and clauses like LLGPL 17:27:56 it'd be fine if everything was written in C 17:27:59 as it is, though... 17:28:04 I can see GPL used for the bits that are purely application-related (i.e. "business intelligence" parts), it can be even an advantage to what normally would be a proprietary solution (if you maintain good ties with non-aligned developers, to avoid forks) 17:28:09 rsynnott: yes, but you still have the requirement, which means that GPL is very risky if you wanted to apply it to Lisp at al 17:28:10 l 17:28:18 *Xach* is glad we moved on from emacs vs vi to more productive topics 17:28:25 as in, it could jeopardise the entire legal status of whatever you write 17:28:39 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:53 oh, what I mean is that GPL would be fine if everything, everywhere, was written in C 17:29:01 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:29:08 once you start dragging in other environments things become problematic, though 17:29:20 rsynnott: I used to write C exclusively, and I still had gripes with basing things on linking 17:31:41 *p_l* ponders if the "viral" nature of GPL wasn't actually designed especially for Lisp 17:31:56 -!- MetalDust_Clouds is now known as MetalDust 17:32:21 I recall FSF starting kinda from RMS vs. Symbolics dispute, after all 17:32:35 rsynnott: it's just not what I consider a sensible basis for deciding whether things are derived or not 17:32:47 especially since it leads to idiocies such as code that's GPL only at runtime 17:33:00 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 17:33:10 or being allowed to distribute A and B, but not A+B together 17:33:36 inklesspen|work [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:56 Scorpion_Script [~scorpion@host71-11-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:34:14 -!- Scorpion_Script [~scorpion@host71-11-dynamic.53-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:29 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-31-32.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:49 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-74-223.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:36:43 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:57 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:38:00 peddie__ [~peddie@adsl-99-25-113-214.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:08 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B200791.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:18 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:40:39 -!- peddie_ [~peddie@adsl-99-56-137-212.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41:33 p8m [~dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:34 -!- Kae [b@c-94cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:05 maverick4ml123 [~maverick@122.166.187.239] has joined #lisp 17:51:46 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as smoke-cheeba 17:54:11 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-59-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:54:55 -!- smoke-cheeba is now known as ni|llll 17:55:15 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-175-108.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:25 -!- ni|llll is now known as PuffTheMagic 18:02:08 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-13-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:01 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-17-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 -!- maverick4ml123 [~maverick@122.166.187.239] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:52 Hun [~hun@95-90-181-241-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:17 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-181-241-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:17:58 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:19:33 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:17 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:24:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24:16 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-xkcaimpsrlvgcyun] has joined #lisp 18:24:37 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:03 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:30:09 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082FD4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:51 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-216-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:59 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B9A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:32:01 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-36-81.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:40 so has anyone ever used the generators as described in CLtL2? 18:32:49 why'd I want to have both that and Series? 18:35:10 mathrick: generators? 18:35:26 *Xach* slays the cxml.asd dragon 18:35:42 leo2007: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node362.html 18:36:03 Xach: sing more about your brave deeds 18:36:55 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 18:37:19 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:13 mathrick: that is not part of most lisp implementations, right? 18:38:14 mathrick: I've used series, but never generators, except when series produces such things. 18:38:34 leo2007: http:series.sourceforge.net 18:38:35 leo2007: no, it's an appendix as you can see 18:39:29 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:43 so what happened to minion anyway? 18:39:56 rtoym: thanks. I've installed it already. 18:40:03 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.129.207] has joined #lisp 18:40:06 Minion and specbot are both parts of the lisppaste image. 18:40:16 ... And someone keeps swiping minion's nick. 18:42:41 can't minion reclaim it? 18:42:51 I mean, it's just a registration with nickserv 18:42:55 and 2 irc commands 18:43:32 any idea whether series can run in ccl? 18:43:55 minion doesn't have the brains for it... but does have the nickserv registration. 18:44:09 you could try it faster than you type it in IRC 18:45:39 I'm getting this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/224026 18:46:40 leo2007: I've never tried series with ccl. Probably needs to import compiler-let from some package. If ccl doesn't have compiler-let, then series won't work. 18:46:53 *rtoym* goes to try it with ccl. 18:47:01 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-31-32.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:39 rtoym: I have never heard of compiler-let. 18:47:48 clhs compiler-let 18:47:56 Oh, right, no bots. 18:48:07 it has ccl:compiler-let 18:48:21 but there is no compiler-let in CLHS anyway 18:48:35 stassats: thx 18:49:17 Oh, I didn't know that. 18:50:29 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:34 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 18:50:36 Hmm. There seems to be some support for ccl in series; it already imports compiler-let. 18:50:49 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-248-44.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:50:51 *Xach* is struck by the hydra of iolib 18:50:58 hydra ? 18:51:29 rtoym / leo2007: I used to use Series in CCL, but it's been a while, so maybe there's just some regression on one side or the other. 18:51:55 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:46 sellout: Ok. Not much has changed in series, so I blame ccl. :-) 18:53:33 fe[nl]ix: the system files that do eval-when loading of other systems are confusing my automatic dependency calculator. 18:53:34 I get some warnings compiling s-code.lisp. The tests run, but eventually produces an error about alter-fn being undefined. 18:54:12 rtoym: we are seeing different errors. which ccl are you using? I use 1.5 18:54:24 Xach: unfortunately I can't avoid that 18:54:35 fe[nl]ix: That is baloney. 18:54:42 leo2007: 1.5, 32-bit. 18:54:43 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:54:54 fe[nl]ix: More convincing would be "It's a lot easier to do it that way" 18:54:57 Xach: no it isn't 18:54:58 1.5 64bit here 18:56:07 leo2007: Sounds like a difference between 32-bit and 64-bit then. But I'll take a look at series and try to get it running with ccl. 18:56:18 fe[nl]ix: Really, there's absolutely no way to get what you want in *any* other way? 18:56:23 rtoym: thanks for that. 18:56:40 Xach: for example, in iolib.os.asd, the symbol cffi-grovel:grovel-file needs to exist and name a class by the time that the DEFSYSTEM that contains it gets read 18:56:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:07 Xach: this is a typical use case for an uninterning reader 18:57:11 which, alas, we don't have 18:57:18 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:25 *non-interning reader 18:58:26 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:58:44 It looks to me like asdf2 might break cxml's use of *load-truename* 18:58:53 hello 18:58:54 Xach: Fare and JJGarcia are aware of this problem. hopefully it will be solved in a future ASDF release 18:58:58 -!- ost` is now known as ost 18:59:05 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:00:28 Xach: that can be solved with a #-asdf2 (merge-pathnames "xml/" ...) #+asdf2 "xml/" 19:00:48 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-103-81.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:42 pnq [asdf@AC818385.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:04 that also affects binge, bordeaux-threads, cl-gd, clot, cl-pdf, clsql, flexichain, protobuf, and snmp. 19:03:26 Xach: I had a report that it's broken, claming that a #. is needed, but no real indication whether ASDF1 or ASDF2 was meant, so ignored it. 19:03:43 Sounds like a bug in asdf2 to me. 19:04:00 If the real answer to to drop the merge-pathnames rather than add a #., that's good news. The #. doesn't feel like an option. 19:04:44 lichtblau: with asdf2, :pathname "xml/" is enough 19:04:55 fe[nl]ix: thanks 19:05:36 Xach: bordeaux-threads loads fine in ASDF 1 and 2 because it uses *load-truename* at read-time 19:06:48 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-xkcaimpsrlvgcyun] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:08:52 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:07 *Xach* tries another tack 19:14:46 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:15:28 rtoym: get a help from #ccl http://paste.pocoo.org/show/224039 19:17:30 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-51-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:37 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-107.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:23:29 -!- Raptelan [~Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:25:07 Raptelan [~Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 19:26:55 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.129.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:29:02 *Xach* wins for iolib too 19:29:12 excellent 19:29:56 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:14 lichtblau: bah, glibc's posix_spawn is broken. if the child fails to exec(), it still returns 0 19:32:59 jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has joined #lisp 19:33:06 marioxcc [~user@201.132.54.80] has joined #lisp 19:33:28 chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 19:33:45 anyone from Franz in here? 19:33:52 sounds like an easy mistake to make. How would you avoid that? 19:35:10 chrisdone: I don't think I've seen any, ever. 19:35:26 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:35:50 lichtblau: I'll try to understand better what's happening. perhaps it's just my fault 19:38:12 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:45 Xach: ah. i was thinking maybe franz would be interested in resurrecting their online REPL in a JSON flavour so that trylisp could be written with it, in exchange for some linkage to their site. tryhaskell got 7,000 visits this month with 449 conversions (>1 minute on the site). i think trylisp.org could get the same so maybe it would be in their interest 19:39:25 -!- moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away] 19:40:31 Xach: hm the lisp.org site is kind of sad. is the lisp community just not interested in marketting or what's the beef? 19:40:53 Isn't lisp.org owned by the ALU? 19:41:12 chrisdone: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ 19:42:03 "There is no Lisp community" =) 19:42:13 Probably if someone maintained an awesome lisp website 19:42:30 they could eventually manage to get permission to take over lisp.org. 19:45:16 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 Xach: that's describing the state of lisp. is that necessarily how lispers want it to be? 19:45:46 *stassats* sees USE-HOMONYM restart in CCL for the first time 19:45:54 nifty! 19:47:41 chrisdone: Which lispers? 19:47:57 Xach: programmers who know and use common lisp 19:49:01 chrisdone: I think there's a pretty big diversity of opinion among that group. 19:49:22 I would like a pretty website. I don't want to work on it. 19:49:25 so it's like herding cats 19:49:51 chrisdone: But with more claws and less purring. 19:50:03 I am working on making my Lisp life easier, and I hope it carries over to others, but who knows. 19:50:07 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:51:36 *Xach* suddenly needs a faster computer, disk 19:51:38 lol @ claws...and what about hissing 19:51:51 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:52:16 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:49 Xach: there are all sorts of uses in industry, research and academia for haskell, all sorts of users. but that doesn't mean they want disparate communities, implementations, etc. lisp itself has comp.lang.lisp, #lisp, common-lisp.net, Planet Lisp. it's not like lispers can't organise and get together for a common purpose. i'm not sure what's missing 19:54:01 it's not? 19:54:14 there're still lisp jobs going at CREATE-NET, btw http://www.create-net.org/create-net/cda/aree/index.php?section=26&area=5&op=detail&id=65&form=1&category=researchers 19:54:33 Xach: sorry? 19:54:49 You said "it's not like lispers can't organise ... for a common purpose". 19:54:56 It seems like it is exactly like that. 19:55:03 Instead of not exactly like that. 19:55:19 they once organized, for a common lisp 19:55:29 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 19:55:30 hmm. maybe it's the purpose, not the localisation, that's the issue 19:55:30 They -twice- organized for a common lisp. 19:56:13 -!- peddie__ is now known as peddie 19:56:19 chrisdone: i don't have any issues, why should i bother? 19:56:29 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:30 stassats: perhaps that's the attitude of the common lisper 19:56:58 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 19:57:44 sunwukong [~vukung@catv-86-101-32-45.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:57:48 Anyway, I'd like it if a lot of things were better and easier, but I don't have time to work on all those things myself, and I don't really like throwing them out there all the time; if other people had the expertise and time, they probably would do it. 19:58:07 CL folks have been very generous. 19:58:11 anyway, i'll see what franz say. at least they must be interested in marketting 19:58:23 sure 19:58:33 chrisdone: maybe Franz is past marketing of lisp itself. 19:58:34 s/tt/t 19:58:35 in marketing franz lisp? 19:58:48 stassats: sure 19:58:53 chrisdone: they seem to be switching to marketing solutions instead. 19:59:10 web 3.0 et al? 19:59:16 yup. 19:59:20 graph analysis 19:59:23 etch 19:59:24 etc. 19:59:34 i would be surprised if they didn't want to sell their products 20:00:16 stassats: they are. However, they seem more convinced that good solutions will help that purpose than just claiming "our Lisp is your ultimate solution" 20:00:40 morten_ [~morten@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:00:40 franz seems very much past marketing their lisp 20:00:48 they sell allegrograph nowadays 20:00:51 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:56 -!- morten_ [~morten@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:09 that's what I'm trying to say, yes. 20:01:10 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 20:01:11 which also makes sense given their otherwise insane licensing scheme 20:01:30 (compared to the other options out there) 20:01:49 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:58 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@catv-86-101-32-45.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 20:02:53 ehu: yes, obviously amongst the blind etc., and I know their licensing scheme used to be common, but I still think it's rather insane 20:03:10 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.248.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:31 first of all, there are many licensing options from franz (and not one), and second of all, no-one of those is particulary insane if they fit your business modell. 20:03:59 and your budget ... 20:04:33 well, a business modell that do not factor in budget and resources are /ipso facto/ insane, however. 20:04:34 hypno: sure, but that's why AG is so important here. Because you're almost certainly a better fit if what you need is AG, as opposed to a guy who just needs a lisp 20:04:43 lisp is incidental to their core product nowadays 20:04:46 -!- pnq [asdf@AC818385.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04:47 xinming [~hyy@125.109.246.182] has joined #lisp 20:05:29 hypno: there are many very real situations in which the price doesn't matter in pratical terms 20:05:33 *practical 20:05:47 and often too low a price is actually an obstacle 20:05:51 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:56 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 20:08:50 -!- mxey [~mxey@shells.chaosdorf.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:20 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:23 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 20:15:09 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:17:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:37 oof. 41 minutes for a full build. gotta sell more roflbots and get a *real* computer! 20:25:53 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@219.61.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:26:21 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:59 Xach: or a thin client and a good VPS. 20:29:00 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 20:29:45 ehu: amazon ec? 20:31:56 Is there any CMS in CL? 20:32:20 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:32:30 sellout: do blog engines count? 20:33:04 pkhuong: I don't think so  something more flexible. Just idle curiosity, really. 20:35:05 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:25 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:36:54 pkhuong: that's an option. For me tech.coop works very well too. 20:41:28 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:41:35 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:41:40 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 20:42:02 Phoodus [foo@174-17-6-14.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:08 I hear the tech.coop data center is on a boat in the Pacific  sounds risky to me ;) 20:42:39 heh. 20:42:40 sellout: I thought that was just the administrative offices, and the data center was somewhere in the atlantic? 20:43:08 nyef: sitting at 3km depth, right next to the Google data centers. 20:43:34 *copec* is lisp newb and as such his pinky finger is getting a lot more accurate with all these parentheses 20:43:35 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 20:43:42 helps dealing with the heat issues. 20:44:07 copec: switch to another keyboard :-) 20:44:16 heh 20:44:19 (keyboard layout) 20:44:32 what works for you 20:45:08 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@64.134.6.158] has joined #lisp 20:45:17 copec: I reach for the paren keys with my middle and ring fingers. Why are you using your pinky? 20:45:47 It does seem like a bit of a stretch... 20:45:48 I try to type proper all the time 20:45:58 using your pinky is not proper 20:45:58 Proper is with the middle and ring. 20:46:06 copec: not a US keyboard layout? 20:46:09 (querty) 20:46:14 *qwerty 20:46:16 qwerty. 20:46:23 -!- argiopeweb_ is now known as argiopeweb 20:46:24 right. sorry. 20:46:28 hrmmm 20:46:39 yes querty 20:46:50 but still: the dutch keyboard has diacritical marks on different locations, even with qwerty 20:46:50 I think I might have been being crazy however 20:46:58 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:47:28 ehu: I wish the person who got the idea to make "localised" layouts caught fire retroactively 20:47:48 lol 20:47:59 *ehu* uses dvorak 20:48:10 that's not a localization though 20:48:12 *aidalgol* tried Dvorak. 20:48:20 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 20:48:21 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.6.158] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:24 Drove me friggin crazy. 20:48:29 Pinkies are for shift and left-ctrl keys only. 20:48:40 mathrick: some of them chose anonymity 20:48:44 Even though I could touch-type with it. 20:49:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:49:13 ost: I can still wish, I don't really care about their identity as long as they catch fire 20:49:14 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:23 dvorak too, for that matter 20:50:45 mathrick: the person still training qwerty should catch fire. 20:50:50 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:52 there's no use for it anymore. 20:51:14 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 mathrick: series implements the appendix, does it? 20:52:13 Since qwerty was designed for slow-typing 20:52:43 leo2007: appendix A, yes. But appendix B is generators, which are similar to series 20:52:48 and I don't understand why have both 20:53:29 ehu: that's load of bullshit, and you'll find that somehow all the studies of dvorak superiority were conducted by a guy coincidentally named Dvorak 20:53:52 mathrick: A few people have said how wonderful series is so I am checking it out. Are generators same as those in python? 20:53:57 but that's very, very off-topic 20:54:09 leo2007: why don't you read the appendix? And no, not directly 20:54:24 I'm reading. cheers. 20:54:57 I think the appendix B generators are meant to be a far more general concept 20:54:59 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:55:17 python generators are really lazy containers for use with 'for' 20:55:40 that's a very limited scope compared to a general, functional iterative construct 20:56:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.203.184] has joined #lisp 20:56:36 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-135-165.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-58.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:14 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-zynewfqkwlamxzcr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:58:02 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:46 davazp [~user@13.Red-79-154-141.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:07 does (scan-range :from .5 :by .1 :type 'float) return? 21:03:29 uhh, scanners don't "return" 21:03:35 they provide elements 21:03:41 this one names an unbounded series 21:05:46 pickles1 [~paul@d47-69-2-54.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:05 mathrick: ok i was confused by the example. 21:06:32 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:55 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:26 astalla [~astalla@93-36-228-203.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:07:56 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:08:03 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: I'm late! I'm late! I'm late!] 21:09:15 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-36-81.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:16 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:19 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:30 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:10:50 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:08 hi, does anyone know what plans the major implementations have about asdf2? 21:11:44 howdy 21:12:05 If ccl is major, then asdf2 is currently in the trunk and will be included in a future 1.6 release. 21:13:10 Hrm... Maybe I should try ccl one of these days... 21:14:49 me too 21:15:03 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Puf!] 21:15:42 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 21:15:52 fnordus [~dnall@S0106002129a44223.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:27 Sukoshi`` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:56 and clisp and sbcl? 21:16:59 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:34 davazp: I don't think anyone uses those. 21:19:22 -!- GrayGnome` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:19:32 pickles [~paul@d47-69-2-54.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:33 -!- pickles1 [~paul@d47-69-2-54.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:42 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 21:21:55 bah 21:23:08 I think it would be specially important in clisp in order to delivery clisp scripts with dependencies 21:23:26 slyrus: hi 21:24:43 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:57 hi davazp 21:26:46 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 21:26:54 huh, Series dies spectacularly when you try to work it from the REPL and mistakenly tell it to print an unbounded series 21:27:29 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:28:34 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 21:34:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:35:13 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:13 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:37:41 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:40:34 is lisppaste +q again? 21:40:54 anyway, http://paste.lisp.org/display/111334 <-- is this just me, or is it very, very broken? 21:43:38 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178.223.159.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:02 davazp: abcl 0.20 includes asdf2 too 21:50:18 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:51:21 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:37 pnq [asdf@AC818662.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:02 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:16 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-228-203.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 21:57:05 mathrick: no problem here with ccl 21:58:23 hi 21:59:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 21:59:11 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 21:59:25 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:31 #Z(:A :B :A :B :A :B :A :B :A :B) 21:59:35 that's the output 21:59:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755247.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:05 gah, Series' code is impenetrable 22:02:28 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-5-206.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.203.184] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:02:30 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 22:03:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:04:21 maden_ [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:07:15 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:10:21 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:06 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:53 -!- fiveop_ [~fiveop@g229114132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:24:19 leo2007: so it only happens if the optimisations are on 22:24:32 which makes it a tad hard to track down 22:25:08 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 22:25:09 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:18 Kae [b@c-94cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:25:53 and the solution is to remove LIST from the backquote in the definition of SERIES 22:26:05 I think somebody was reworking some code and got confused 22:26:30 leo2007: what's the value of *OPTIMIZE-SERIES-EXPRESSIONS* for you? 22:27:20 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:28:50 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:36 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:15 aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:41:05 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:54 http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1666410&group_id=3235&atid=103235 22:43:03 okay, so it's supposedly closed, but no new release 22:43:05 annoying 22:46:11 dysinger [~dysinger@67.201.78.8] has joined #lisp 22:52:57 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:15 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:54:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:55:13 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 22:55:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:05:45 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:48 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:06 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:24 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:16:40 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:10 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:56 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 23:20:29 GrayGonme [~MuneNoKag@vpn3-144110.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:23:11 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:23:20 -!- Sukoshi`` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:54 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:26:00 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:27:51 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:28:27 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:46 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:29 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.111] has joined #lisp 23:38:44 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:38:46 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:40:10 verysad [~waga@188.26.40.83] has joined #lisp 23:40:17 Hello. 23:40:38 I want to donate a marble and a mouse to somebody. 23:41:16 hmm, why would you want to do that ? 23:41:49 just because i want to give some one a present 23:41:55 verysad: is the mouse still alive? Did the mouse eat the marble yet? 23:42:00 hehe 23:42:05 a computer mouse 23:42:43 i initialy wanted to donate my serial mouse, but i thought nobody uses serials now, so i will donate a laser mouse 23:42:47 i have already a mouse 23:43:00 but you may not have a marble 23:43:11 and i have another new one as fallback... 23:43:41 is it a marble mouse? 23:43:46 then a capacitor 23:43:58 or a potentiometer 23:44:01 :) 23:44:11 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:44:16 or a tenis game 23:44:18 i have 23:44:47 -!- pnq [asdf@AC818662.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:45:36 verysad: in case it was unclear, I was serious 23:45:50 no 23:45:54 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 23:45:55 a marble 23:45:56 I wonder how good those marble mice are. I've seen a few people work with them, and they seem happy :) 23:45:57 and a mouse 23:45:59 oh :( 23:46:13 i never saw a marble mouse 23:46:21 i was not happy with a marble mouse 23:46:31 i can also donate a PIC microcontroller 23:46:33 it was getting dirty too early... 23:47:02 verysad: search for logitech marble mouse 23:47:02 the optical ones are good 23:47:20 sepult: so the issue was the dirt, not the way it works from an interface pov? 23:47:27 verysad: why are you sad? 23:47:27 yep 23:47:30 oh 23:47:39 i am sad 23:47:43 it was not inaccurate or so 23:47:47 did it take you a long time to get used to it? is there any reason besides RSI that I should use it? 23:47:47 andit was working 23:47:52 but it's not important 23:47:58 why 23:48:10 just when it would get dirty it would be hard to position the pointer right where you want it to be 23:48:11 and it gets offtopic and i'm risking a ban 23:48:33 well, a sad man comes here and wants to give away stuff... possibly not trolling. So I wondered 23:49:40 s/man/man/woman 23:49:44 So you wondered what? 23:49:59 why you're sad 23:50:10 I will be risking a ban. 23:50:11 sepult: would you advise it to other people? 23:50:15 then /msg 23:50:19 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 23:50:34 Well because i don't have time to run during school. 23:50:38 sheesh, it's not like we kick that fast, right? 23:50:49 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-138-154.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:50:57 Can someone please help me get my newbieish code to compile? 23:51:07 Last time i said something offtopic i got and ip ban on freenode. 23:51:30 well, it's possible. Certainly if people think you're trolling 23:51:35 it's only for 2 to 3 weeks if at all 23:51:45 bans are not lasting for ever 23:51:52 aidalgol: can you attach the errors you get from compiling it? 23:51:53 yes 23:52:07 but it's still not very nice. 23:52:21 i have to use dalnet or efnet. 23:52:22 it's appropriate sometimes.... 23:52:37 And none of my friends are there. 23:52:55 -!- chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:53:04 madnificent: Done! 23:53:22 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:43 verysad: If the IP ban was on a school IP, it was probably not because of you alone. 23:54:06 People in schools don't use irc anymore. 23:54:13 lol 23:54:17 Most of them have never heard of them. 23:54:22 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B200791.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:54:27 aidalgol: you'll likely want to make (let (top-card (card deck)) ...) be (let ((top-card (card deck))) ... ) 23:54:33 (that's not it though) 23:54:34 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:55:22 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:55:29 aidalgol: ;; Deal nine cards to each player <-- you 'll need a deck to use (take-card) 23:56:17 madnificent: Thank you! 23:56:28 *aidalgol* is still retuning his brain to Lisp. 23:56:29 aidalgol: and you have ((setf cards-left (append cards-left card))) which should become (setf cards-left (append cards-left card)) 23:56:34 -!- verysad is now known as waga 23:56:44 aidalgol: you have made your errors consistently, that's a good thing 23:56:51 :) 23:57:12 aidalgol: what are you using to write lisp code? 23:57:23 madnificent: Emacs. 23:57:30 maxigas [~user@host86-173-4-249.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:41 I'm a bit better with Emacs Lisp. 23:58:11 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:37 argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 23:58:42 aidalgol: when compiling a file, you can use M-n and M-p to scroll over the errors/warnings that the image gave, that may make it easier to find errors 23:58:54 *madnificent* doesn't know emacs lisp 23:59:06 which is a bit bad 23:59:13 aidalgol: wait, you're not using slime? 23:59:34 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:59:37 madnificent: So I should use M-x compile clisp -c go-fish.lisp ? 23:59:49 no, you should use slime.