00:00:11 pjb``: I agree, that was meant for Zhivago 00:00:27 The Wikipedia article starts well, but once having defined correctly resolution, it goes on using it in a different meaning! 00:00:36 that's almost as many as plage's laptop screen. :) 00:00:43 :-) 00:01:26 foom: Yeah, but I would need a magnifying glass, or very strong reading glasses to work on it. Plus, the keyboard would be a problem. 00:01:43 Resolution determines what images can be displayed rather than how big they appear. 00:02:29 minion: chant 00:02:30 Otherwise you could increase your resolution meaningfully by using a telescope. 00:04:13 -!- Paraselene [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:22 Paraselene_ [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:42 By common usage, display resolution refers to the pixel dimension of your monitor. By definition, resolution refers to the amount of differentiable units in a given area, for displays and printers that would be dpi. Where telescopes enter the picture is a little unclear to me 00:08:09 *plage* foolishly thought #lisp above arguing about names of things, which, after all, are arbitrary. 00:08:38 *vonli* isn't above arguing anything when he's supposed to be reading for exams 00:09:26 vonli: They enter it at the point that plage and pjb confuse resolution with pixel density. 00:10:40 *plage* studies Vietnamese instead. 00:11:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:11:51 Zhivago: they don't confuse them, they're using the actual definition of the word resolution rather than the common usage. 00:15:58 vonli: No, they're confusing resolution with display density. Resolution determines the fidelity of an image, not how large it is. 00:16:28 vonli: Consider the images that a 1, 4, and 16 pixel display can resolve. 00:16:50 Zhivago: you're introducing a third meaning. 00:17:31 No. This is what resolution means -- it's about what can be resolved. 00:18:02 Think of it in terms of sensor resolution if that helps -- the degree of differentiation. 00:19:07 This sensor can resolve 16 distinct regions of light. This display can display 16 distinct degions of light, permitting a sensor to resolve 16 distinct regions of light. 00:20:35 So you're saying that the common meaning of resolution derives from this, and therefore is valid. 00:21:17 I could accept that. 00:22:03 Yes -- I'm saying that resolution is a measure of what can be resolved. 00:22:32 The conflation with pixel density comes from variable resolution in a fixed size display. 00:22:43 ok. 00:23:00 It wasn't 2000 dpi, but in year 2000, a 200 dpi screen, that IBM issued: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/12/03/high-res-screen.aspx 00:23:50 In any case, for usual eye-display distance, when we reach 30,000 dpi, the human eyes can't resolve the pixels, so the images displayed on that kind of display would be indistinguishable from reality. 00:25:35 Ok, that pixel density at those distances exceeds the resolution of the human eye. 00:27:57 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has joined #lisp 00:28:12 pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.171] has joined #lisp 00:29:07 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.83.231] has left #lisp 00:29:11 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.44] has joined #lisp 00:30:07 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.10.96] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33:46 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:36:43 -!- urnthr [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:38:09 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.10.96] has joined #lisp 00:42:49 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 00:42:55 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.10.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:46:13 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:46:20 greetings 00:46:25 knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-78-79.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:34 lispniks, this is OT but I trust your collective judgement 00:46:48 anyone know of good books on 2D graphic algorithms? 00:46:57 _just_ 2D 00:47:06 mostly GUI rendering stuff 00:47:25 -!- pnq [asdf@172.130.100.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:47:27 clipping, fill, layout management, etc. 00:47:42 ideally, a book on "how to make your own GUI toolkit" 00:48:12 if not a book, then a cheatsheet or similar bag of tricks 00:48:18 -!- bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-bbknoybfjpcjskwg] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:48:48 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-7-237.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:50:09 we have "DirectX User Interfaces" at work but it's hand-wavy and leaves the meaty stuff up to Direct(X|Input) 00:50:30 bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-ayotwhobnavhhvpl] has joined #lisp 00:51:02 Doesn't wikipedia describe clipping, filling, etc? 00:51:10 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:51:11 i bet the McCLIM hackers have some bookmarks up their sleeve 00:51:29 -!- bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-ayotwhobnavhhvpl] has quit [Changing host] 00:51:29 bgs000 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:51:29 -!- bgs000 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Changing host] 00:51:29 bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-ayotwhobnavhhvpl] has joined #lisp 00:51:31 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 00:52:19 rtoym: i could edit my own howto, but i just wasted a week on layout management; a field too cluttered with high-brow algorithms and very few concrete examples, and was afraid i might be led stray by fun theory 00:53:18 fwiw, most stuff is hardware oriented, while i am working with html canvas and svg 00:54:11 fuss: also OT but: http://news.squeak.org/2010/06/03/all-you-ever-heard-about-graphics-anti-aliasing-is-wrong/ 00:55:10 the thesis should translate to lisp gui 00:55:45 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:55:59 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:57:52 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.230] has joined #lisp 00:58:25 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:38 *fusss 00:58:58 JuanDaugherty: yeah, saw that few days ago and though the same 01:00:41 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.10] has joined #lisp 01:00:48 -!- knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-78-79.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:01:41 I'd be surprised if you'd really need to do your own clipping. Rogers's _Procedure Elements for Computer Graphics_ has a chapter about clipping. Sort of an old book, but at least it's not in the style of "C++ Super Graphics Unleashed for Dummies". 01:02:49 Any particular reason not to use opengl or directx or sdl or whatever? 01:05:08 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.171] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 01:09:45 Zhivago: me? directx and opengl for web GUIs? 01:12:54 html5 canvas? :) 01:15:27 Samy [~sbahra@c-68-48-66-31.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:46 dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-pfdzmbazjnncixlu] has joined #lisp 01:16:49 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BEAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:17:19 Zhivago: "fusss> fwiw, most stuff is hardware oriented, while i am working with html canvas and svg" 01:17:59 hlavaty` [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:18:03 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:19:01 Um, and don't they take care of clipping and filling and so on? 01:21:04 nm, i plan to read actionscript sources for the algorithms 01:22:16 Hmm, I think that perhaps we have very different ideas of what fill and clipping algorithms do ... 01:23:28 ekQQ [EKUBAL@plus.ds14.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 01:24:01 -!- ekQQ [EKUBAL@plus.ds14.agh.edu.pl] has left #lisp 01:28:25 _danb_ [~user@124-171-25-183.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:29:19 pnq [asdf@ACA28F28.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:26 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:27 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:38:03 -!- rme [rme@clozure-2840C3A0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:38:03 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-81-185.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:40:34 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-26-104.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:41:23 -!- peddie__ is now known as peddie 01:43:43 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-pfdzmbazjnncixlu] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 01:45:26 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.83.231] has joined #lisp 01:48:13 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 01:48:19 http://openendedgroup.com/field/wiki/OverviewBanners2 01:48:21 i found so interesting ide for python. actually not just ide. 01:48:48 they said environment for experimental code and digital art. 01:49:22 PissedNu1lock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 01:49:39 TDT` [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:08 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-138-154.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:50:16 xiackok: notice that once you have an application with an embedded Python, it should be easy to add to it an embedded Common Lisp, using the same API and ECL. 01:50:45 There should be task force to do that to all the Python "enabled" applications, like Dia, etc. 01:51:06 Let's ECLize all the applications! 01:52:25 pjb``: i saw last night a program so similiar to that. he live coding. opengl + sound. coded in lisp 01:52:28 andreer_ [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 01:52:49 Xach_ [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:50 [df]_ [~df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:58 inklessp1n|work [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:59 Then you can write a read-print socket interface in ECL and connect it to sbcl :) 01:53:01 codemonk1yx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:02 yacin_ [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 01:53:25 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- inklesspen|work [~jon@inklesspen.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- [df] [~df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- hlavaty` [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:26 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:26 -!- codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:26 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:54:24 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.10] has joined #lisp 01:55:23 xiackok: i am actually making a web IDE :-) 01:55:50 but how can you connect to any program ?? like Field (i wrote link just) 01:56:03 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0110-178-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:56:37 fusss: at the moment in the web?? or you deployed a testing version anywhere= 01:56:59 it's 5 days old, let me paste a screenshot, hold on 01:56:59 dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-qjreginypjbzrdsp] has joined #lisp 01:57:37 im waiting :) 01:57:39 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:58:17 GrayGnome` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:58 is it an aperception on my part or are clbuild and asdf at cross purposes? 01:59:07 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:17 I have this pseudo-C code m a tutorial: samplePeriod = 1 << k; // calculates 2 ^ k 02:00:45 aw1 [~aw@p5DDA8E2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:49 Is ((period (ash 1 k))) correct? 02:00:57 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:01:13 -!- GrayGonme [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:02:26 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:07 xiackok: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2083231/webgui1.PNG 02:03:20 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2083231/webgui2.PNG 02:03:45 -!- aw|rerun [~aw@p5DDA93FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:25 fusss: is it page designer?? 02:04:29 yes 02:04:44 where did you use lisp? 02:04:47 but you should able to embed "lisplets" RSN 02:05:14 like a scripting language?? 02:05:28 it's 100% jquery, but the model you're creating is synched with an app server that creates a CLOS model corresponding with your hand-made DOM 02:05:44 xiackok: i am not zealous about the lisp part, but it's all I know 02:06:17 the textarea is just a placeholder, i will be using an in-place editable div 02:06:25 Recur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:46 tricky part are the fonts, arabic looks ugly without decent fonts, and for that it's sIFR 02:07:07 -!- pnq [asdf@ACA28F28.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:09:20 xiackok: i also built a social-networking thing in CL, complete with 3rd party apps and elaborate security model 02:09:34 i can take screenshots of it but i will have to boot it first 02:10:05 fusss: if i understand you are using lisp as like a web server. i dont know about arabic fonts but 02:10:07 arabic alphabet is very nice(artistic). 02:10:32 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:10:53 fusss: im writing web applications with django/python for 3 years. im newbie to lisp. 02:11:07 basically, lisp is the glue between database models and in-browser DOM models; the apps themselves have to be stateless to accommodate load-balancing 02:11:52 xiackok: the hunchentoot ecosystem is nothing like the fat frameworks you're used to 02:12:07 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-54-36.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:12:07 but every lisper has a bastardized subset of pylons in his code base 02:12:24 http://pylonshq.com/docs/en/0.9.7/_images/pylons_as_onion.png 02:12:26 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-118.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:56 in that image, hunchentoot has the following builtin: status code, error handler, session, and routes 02:14:08 fusss: yes i hear hunchentoot its seems like django. but i dont know about power 02:14:30 registery management in pylons parlance is something language related, and you have to code with load-balancing in mind; don't expect one lisp webserver to do all the work 02:14:33 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:56 no, hunchetoot is nowhere near django, more like web.py 02:15:16 fusss: im sorry not hunchetooth. 02:15:52 fusss: yes im again looked hunchetooth you are right like web.py 02:16:00 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-qjreginypjbzrdsp] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 02:16:50 palter [~palter@72-254-58-217.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:26 fusss: i need interest web programming in lisp. but before i must learn lisp coding and style. 02:17:59 fusss: think, i learned object db at last night ehueh 02:18:00 you can clone jottit.com in a few days 02:19:08 using cl-markdown http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-markdown/ 02:21:40 it would be easy with hunchetooth :) 02:22:15 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:46 im at the moment working on arkheological slide cataloger with learning lisp. i used rucksack for presistent 02:23:48 objects. what you are using in your web application (not social bookmarking) for saving web pages?? 02:23:49 you wont know til you try it; pro-tip, try to add user-customizable themes. just a ~/theme/user-id/theme-number/ directory, some file uploading, and HTML-TEMPLATE markup 02:23:57 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-54-36.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:30 postmodern, persistent objects that are actually persistent, not ephemeral beings 02:24:47 everyone loves toy object stores until they lose data 02:24:56 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 02:25:37 postmodern is for postgresql?? 02:25:55 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 02:28:52 yes 02:29:40 postgre sql is relational database?? 02:31:31 yes, but postmodern abstracts away most of it, so you only see CLOS objects (until you want performance and need to tweak stuff) 02:33:25 xiackok: on the "less relational" side there is Elephant, bknr and cl-prevalence (at least). Although Postmodern can also be used without directly using the relational stuff (queries, etc) 02:34:34 hmmm m looking now 02:37:04 (plus CLSQL on the opposite end) 02:38:35 dysinger [~dysinger@67.201.78.8] has joined #lisp 02:41:18 fusss: maybe later i will use but at now its complex for me 02:41:35 xiackok: np 02:41:43 but fwiw, it's simpler than clsql 02:41:56 a lot more 02:42:26 (I say this as someone who doesn't know a lot of SQL, and recently tried to use the two) 02:42:37 Plus, good docs 02:44:48 there is no problem with sql but i want just focus on lisp :) 02:45:55 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 02:48:34 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.132.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:48:59 maxigas [~user@host86-173-4-249.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:14 I can (require :foo) fine but (defpackage :bar (:use :foo)) fails with "foo does not designate any package". That's on Ubuntu, Emacs23, Slime and SBCL. Any tips? 02:53:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:55:28 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:55:51 -!- palter [~palter@72-254-58-217.client.stsn.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 02:56:25 maxigas: Perhaps you are confused on what require and :use actually do. 02:56:34 uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:46 maxigas: http://weitz.de/packages.html 02:57:53 palter [~palter@72-254-58-217.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:48 -!- palter [~palter@72-254-58-217.client.stsn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:00:12 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 03:00:32 tcr: Hey, that's cool! 03:00:53 nice, thx 03:06:09 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:06:25 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.77.120.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:26 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:13:09 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:29 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:55 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:10 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:14:46 BrianRice [~briantric@75-93-58-1.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:36 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667660-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 03:19:12 Xach_: what kind of problems ? 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05:09:30 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:09:37 just wanted to be part of the hello gang 05:09:46 Ah, OK. 05:10:11 inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:23 Cassy [~cassidyma@218.15.22.140] has joined #lisp 05:11:15 can i haz hellos too? 05:11:30 would that be "mr. the plague"? 05:12:05 doh, plage, not plague. unfortunate read error 05:13:28 Zzzz... good night all 05:14:36 'night Devon 05:15:07 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:15:08 toast`: It's part of a family of nicks that all mean "beach" or "shore" (beach, spiaggia, plage, ...) 05:15:35 ah, that makes more sense 05:17:09 p0a [~user@athedsl-4373140.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:17:24 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:17:28 hello toast` 05:17:49 (format t "hello adu") 05:18:00 Hello, why does slime never load the whole file when I compile a file with slime & load it (C-c C-k), and the file contains functions which operate on "global" variables? 05:18:26 I have written some functions that operate on *foo* and a WITH-FOO macro. The functions don't know that *foo* is special. 05:19:13 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:19:39 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:41 shouldn't special variables be declare before using them? 05:19:44 +d 05:20:00 I'll fix it 05:22:02 Another question: how do I tab the format such that it always takes up at least n characters space? ie " foo" and " test" 05:24:20 I think ~T does it 05:24:35 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node200.html, on ~T 05:24:41 (just happened to have it open right now) 05:26:56 hehe, thanks 05:29:14 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29:50 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:30:35 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:59 -!- aw1 is now known as aw 05:33:47 -!- Cassy [~cassidyma@218.15.22.140] has left #lisp 05:35:48 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:36:23 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:41 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:58 how can I make ~T take an argument? 05:38:45 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:38:50 ie (format t "~T" 10) 05:41:13 try "~2,a" or something similar 05:41:35 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-0-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:42:13 p0a: ~,vt 05:42:55 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:43:04 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-60-109.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:43:15 thanks 05:43:26 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 05:45:38 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:13 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:39 -!- p0a [~user@athedsl-4373140.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: ybe] 05:49:38 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:27 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:27 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:55:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:57:01 are the common functions (map some elt) really generic functions? 05:57:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.206.212] has joined #lisp 05:57:50 toast`: no 05:58:00 very noob question, but it's been a long time since i've touched cl or clos 05:58:05 ok, they only work on builtins? 05:58:22 toast`: that's right 05:58:56 is there a standard set of CLOS generics for these operations? 05:59:37 there is a library, I believe 06:00:09 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 06:01:32 thx, i'll look around for it 06:01:33 toast`: search for "User-extensible sequences in common Lisp" 06:05:14 that's a nice approach -- modify the builtin functions to call into the sequences library functions instead of signalling a type error 06:06:12 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:06:14 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]] 06:06:33 2007, recent paper. is there much ongoing growth of CL? 06:06:46 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:07:00 2007 is recent? =) 06:07:24 heh, better than 199x 06:13:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.206.212] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:13:25 where's a good place to listen? one of the various open implementations? 06:14:13 listen to what? 06:20:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:22:23 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:23:44 -!- aw [~aw@p5DDA8E2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 06:25:13 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667660-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:29:18 IceD^ [~iced@live.bn.by] has joined #lisp 06:29:30 it turns out that in sbcl there is no tail recursion 06:29:33 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-0-69.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:30:02 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:30:22 I tried asdf-installing hunchentoot in my macports-installed sbcl and one of the dependencies failed due to a lack of the package MOS. Google is not helping me here; any tips? 06:30:45 inklesspen, exact error please 06:32:00 IceD^: it turns out that that is not true 06:32:10 (cool, people are reading what I wrote three years ago :-) 06:33:04 -!- pnq [asdf@AC826BD1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:33:32 IceD^: is that SBCL 1.0.39? 06:34:18 IceD^: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111244 06:34:51 IceD^: possibly what you mean is that under the default compilation settings, calls in tail position are not converted to jumps 06:35:18 oops, not MOS, MOP 06:35:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:35:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:35:38 (or maybe you mean something else) 06:36:46 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:04 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 06:37:28 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 06:40:02 IceD^: any ideas? 06:40:27 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 06:41:30 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-54-10.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:41 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:49 hm, here's someone who had the same problem: http://paste.lisp.org/display/98816 06:46:16 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:46:56 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6642b1-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 06:47:13 ost, 1.0.39, right 06:47:49 Krystof, explain? 06:47:51 err 06:48:02 not explain - give me right compilation settings ;)) 06:48:26 IceD^: 1.0.37 compiles (labels ((foo () (foo))) (foo)) to a perfect "L0: EBFE JMP L0" 06:49:49 the same with 1.0.39 06:50:08 well, I managed to create simpliest sample 06:50:17 classic factorial impl 06:50:38 (defun fact (x) (if (= x 0) 1 (* x (fact (1- x))))) 06:50:42 hm, I'm getting the same compilation error with 1.0.39 on debian 06:50:49 this is worrisome 06:51:09 aha 06:51:13 it's a bug in Lift 06:51:13 joyous 06:51:21 IceD^: in what respect is that a recursive call in tail position? 06:51:31 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-95.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:51:52 Krystof, is it not? 06:51:58 IceD^: =) 06:52:00 I'm a little bit sleepy again 06:52:34 and always got a problem telling if that's tail or not :) 06:52:53 inklesspen, good think - http://paste.lisp.org/display/98816 - you are not the first 06:53:53 yep, there's a patch on the mailing list 06:54:03 ahha 06:54:06 but it's not in the repo yet 06:54:10 got solution on russian forum 06:54:35 i'll just go back to working through practical common lisp, and hope it's fixed in a few days 06:54:45 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:54:48 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:09 IceD^: if the call is the "last" thing to happen in the body of a function, it's in tail position 06:55:13 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-118.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:21 I understand this 06:55:31 and yes - last thing is * 06:55:35 in your fact, after the recursive call does its stuff, its return value has to be multiplied by x before returning that value from the actual fact function 06:55:58 sorry 06:56:26 my problem is that I need to think about it each time 06:56:37 don't really know why 06:56:44 you don't have years of experience yet 06:56:52 don't worry, it'll come 06:56:56 13 h 06:57:03 13 years of real experience 06:57:10 (4-5y of lisp exp) 06:57:13 of writing tail recursive functions? 06:59:57 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:00:21 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:03:15 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:35 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:04:43 good morning 07:04:53 hello mvilleneuve 07:10:38 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.83.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:18:21 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:20:28 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:23:25 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:25:43 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:30:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:31:05 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:31:46 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:31:54 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:32:04 spearalot [~spearalot@host213-123-170-251.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:16 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 07:36:26 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I got a couple of dependency issues on the way (part of packages is loaded by hand without clbuild) - now I'm stuck with one of them - lift which seems to have moved from darcs to git. I have added it by hand but clbuild still complains when it tries to update it. What should I do? skip doesn't work because it's outside clbuild 09:08:49 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:13 somebody should punish lift's mantainers 09:12:12 zoldar: try making lift a non-dependency 09:12:25 zoldar: delete source/lift then change the repo in clbuild to the git one then issue clbuild install again 09:12:34 if you have an existing lift checkout from darcs, you can run "clbuild trash lift" to remove it, so that the next "clbuild install lift" can get it from git instead. 09:12:40 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:13:27 clbuild already knows the new lift git repo, but existing directories don't get switched automatically over when that sort of thing happens 09:13:46 i have lift installed outside clbuild at the moment 09:13:55 so i suppose i should remove it 09:16:08 zoldar: incidentally if you're using sbcl, lift is currently broken on sbcl (and possibly other implementations) 09:17:24 so does weblocks really rely on it actually ? 09:18:28 finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has joined #lisp 09:20:05 zoldar: lift is a test framework, so not really 09:20:13 greg` [~user@77.246.87.158] has joined #lisp 09:20:30 heh he - second lift issue for today :) 09:21:13 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 09:21:23 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:33 in my opinion, asdf-install could use the ability to backtrack to a known-good package, rather than always installing the latest 09:23:06 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn190.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:09 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:27:52 inklesspen: asdf-install is the least maintained thing out there, I fear 09:28:14 I see. 09:28:25 perhaps when I get the hang of things, I'll dive into that. 09:29:45 -!- greg` [~user@77.246.87.158] has left #lisp 09:30:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:31:07 well, (almost) all language specific install/build tools are crap 09:31:36 s/language specific // 09:32:05 inklesspen, some general purpose are more-less ok 09:32:37 there is good solution for this - use proper distro which will take care of it for you 09:32:44 such as 09:32:46 i use debian 09:32:56 they provide an out-of-date sbcl 09:33:04 gentoo 09:33:09 i'm hardly confident they'll provide an up-to-date hunchentoot 09:33:10 got latest scbl 09:33:13 sbcl* 09:33:16 if I wanted to compile all my apps, I'd use minix 09:33:24 and just typed emerge weblocks - and it's here 09:33:39 with latest bugs 09:33:40 it's not you compiling - it's distro installing package for you 09:34:05 ost, I can switch to previous one (emerge " what's the point of using gentoo if you're _not_ compiling from scratch? 09:34:24 isn't that its whole reason for existing? 09:34:24 while I'll not put gentoo into production, it's damn best for developer 09:35:19 inklesspen, again - I'm _not_ compiling it - I'm just typing emerge as well as you are typing aptitude install 09:35:27 *ost* is sticking with Lispy for prod 09:35:40 IceD^: yeah, like i said 09:35:40 the difference is that in case of gentoo it work 09:35:51 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:03 debian can compile from source too 09:36:07 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:36:10 i used macports to install sbcl on my dev machine. 09:36:11 kinda like gentoo 09:36:31 billitch, whatever - I do not care if gentoo compiles it or not 09:36:51 yeah compiling from source often means breaking your system with each updates 09:37:01 I only know that when I'm typing emerge weblocks - it's here, not just like in debian 09:37:08 (and I don't want to start flame war) 09:37:38 I just strongly suggest to try gentoo (~ + lisp overlay) 09:37:43 as dev box 09:37:52 oh sure, for open source lisp packages i prefer repo-install though 09:38:05 if it'll not work for you - you'll just loose few hours 09:38:25 having too much fun with my shiny new macbook pro 09:38:27 and if it'll work - you'll not have installation problems anymore ;] 09:38:58 many languages use specific install tools because they have certain requirements that don't fit the schems used by other languages... 09:39:01 IceD^: just wait for your gentoo to crawl under successive broken updates, it'll happen 09:39:10 mine died few months ago 09:39:13 or to make it easier to develop 09:39:18 replaced it with OpenBSD -current =) 09:39:21 billitch, mine is working for last 7 years 09:39:38 cabal and RubyGems are much easier to use than using official packages when you're a developer 09:39:43 mens - installed it in 2004 09:39:46 6 years 09:39:47 IceD^: revdep-rebuild often ? ... 09:40:00 billitch, 1-2 times/year 09:40:01 *p_l* wants to replicate certain features of those, like uploading packages... 09:40:15 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:33 IceD^: uh you don't really use your system ?? mine was revdep-broken every 2 weeks 09:40:34 cabal - yes 09:40:46 rubygems - will disagre - it's damn bad 09:40:48 (for me) 09:41:04 what's wrong with rubygems ? 09:41:06 billitch, I'm updating each 1-2 months 09:41:19 ah ok 09:41:24 me almost everyday 09:41:41 billitch, for using - it's almost OK (except bad docs), for writing gems, well, there are issues 09:42:01 billitch, I'm not playing with it, I'm just using it, as tool 09:42:28 anyway for lisp you should take a look at repo-install : http://www.machineinsight.com/repo-install/ 09:42:30 and it survived from one of the first public releases till these days 09:43:11 (and migrated through 3 or 4 boxes) 09:43:19 IceD^: I prefer staying up to date for security reasons.. production debians update 6 times a day with no problem 09:45:03 I'm talking about dev box 09:45:27 for production I'm using suse (old habbit, back from 1998) 09:45:51 well i think dev box should be more secure than prod sometimes 09:45:58 why so? 09:46:17 ...hum i don't like my code / ssh keys / etc to leak ? 09:46:26 (my sources) 09:46:55 that's why you have hardware router which will restrict any inbount connection? 09:47:08 billitch: Sometimes you need physical separation as well... 09:47:20 my friend learnt that when a worm escaped his lab xD 09:47:20 and use noscript as well 09:47:47 (and no, hw router wouldn't help... since the worm was written to attack Cisco IOS) 09:47:49 I'm doing install from scratch because I've messed up with various package managers (lispy/clbuild/manual install etc.). I want to stick with clbuild - should I use it to install sbcl itself? or is it better to install it separately by hand? 09:47:52 p_l: ha too bad 09:48:14 i frankly trust pf from openbsd to be one of the best fw available out wide 09:48:24 zoldar: better. separately. by hand. 09:48:27 billitch: he found about it yearslater, when he caught by chance a packet used for inter-worm comm. 09:49:02 p_l: that's a long time, how did it get it in the first place ? 09:49:06 well, hardware router + no open ports outside chroot makes me happy 09:49:10 billitch: it was also too late to disable it, because the RSA key that was used for command channel expired... 09:49:14 (I'm kinda paranoid, yes) 09:49:27 billitch: experiment in AI coupled with worm writing 09:49:50 it wasn't supposed to enter internet at all xD 09:49:55 p_l: haha this sounds like ghost in the shell 09:50:04 billitch: kinda part of inspiration 09:50:04 and the last thing, I'll do - is to trust debian maintainers 09:50:15 I still remember "new zeland no-bug" 09:51:07 this discussion is a bit OT 09:51:14 new zeland gov decided to change timezone and didn't make it according debian release schedule - so debian guys didn't put it into security update ;] 09:51:22 fe[nl]ix, yeah 09:51:27 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has left #lisp 09:51:48 *p_l* thinks that ASDF2 will make a lot of good in terms of Lisp packaging 09:51:57 so when do we package a lisp only os distribution ? 09:52:20 let's focus on the bright side of life 09:53:24 billitch: there's one for OSF/1 ;-) 09:53:58 well, it uses DEC OSF/1 for host ^_- 09:54:47 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-65.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:01:35 p_l: ow; i meant one to work with.. 10:02:26 Sukoshi`` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 is anyone developing movitz ? 10:03:07 tunes ? 10:03:51 billitch: I assure you, that if you manage to get a running alpha with a graphic card and Tru64, it works :) 10:03:59 -!- Sukoshi`` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:24 Sukoshi`` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:31 -!- GrayGnome` [~MuneNoKag@user-11fa65f.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05:49 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-36-65.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:07:13 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:14 p_l: i'll have to see it for real 10:07:19 ^^ 10:08:03 the funny thing was how owner of Symbolics made the torrent of OpenGenera 2.0 into an advertisement with a single comment :) 10:08:22 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:09:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:12:11 p_l: sounds mysterious 10:15:52 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 10:15:56 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:42 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:24 alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:22:35 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:22:48 fe[nl]ix: couldn't compile the C parts. 10:23:12 -!- aerique_ is now known as aerique 10:23:22 Xach_: I'd like to see the errors 10:25:06 fe[nl]ix: i will get them for you. 10:25:07 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.44] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:25:12 Xach_: thanks :) 10:25:34 fe[nl]ix: they had the spewish quality that made me think my development environment has a broad problem, though other things work ok 10:26:47 Xach_: if you're on debian/ubuntu, installing "build-essential" should suffice 10:27:19 -!- billitch [~billitch@g229049227.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:27 benny [~user@i577A1D0E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:54 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-83.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:34:11 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-83.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:35:36 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nqdbejrcyuvyqjrw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:06 fe[nl]ix: darwin 10:36:25 oh 10:39:46 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:58 billitch [~billitch@g225098030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:52 here comes the paste! 10:43:10 oops. hmm. 10:43:12 *Xach_* tries again 10:45:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.6.238] has joined #lisp 10:45:33 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111247 10:49:11 Xach_: please paste /private/tmp/qls/iolib/src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix.c lines 295-315 10:49:32 it seems that line 304 is the only error 10:50:26 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 10:51:26 #ifdef 0 it says 10:51:51 should it be #if 0? 10:52:14 alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:52:16 I don't know, I must see the context 10:53:02 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 annotated 10:53:10 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:26 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 10:53:29 -!- root` [~user@lixandru-ag.mediasat.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:53:49 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 10:53:52 no, that's a bug in the groveler 10:54:03 how did that 0 get in there? 10:54:06 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:13 pkhuong [~pkhuong@173.176.100.238] has joined #lisp 10:54:35 *Xach_* did not do it! 10:55:11 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:10 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:27 luis: default value if constant not present 10:58:15 What should I do? 10:58:54 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 11:00:11 p_l: i thought the owner of symbolics died in 2007 11:00:16 actually, it's a bug in iolib 11:00:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:00:26 I pushed a fix 11:01:20 billitch: Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com. <--- said commnt 11:01:21 Xach: thanks 11:01:25 *comment 11:01:44 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:01:51 *Xach* rebuilds 11:02:17 billitch: personally, I can't call it anything other than endorsement for a torrent that turned a copyright infringement into an advertisement xD 11:03:15 aw [~aw@w4359.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:42 that comment is gold =) 11:06:03 i think this kind of release may be good for them actually 11:06:25 zomgbie [~jesus@chello062178135013.2.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:06:27 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 11:06:55 even completely illegal, those who can't afford it are already making a lot of noise about it 11:07:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.6.238] has quit [Quit: I'm not here anymore.] 11:08:46 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-59-208.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:09:13 but there is no Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com 11:09:55 ost: http://www.symbolics-dks.com/ 11:10:49 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:11:40 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-174.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:12:12 fe[nl]ix: builds fine now, thanks for the fix 11:12:19 yay 11:12:25 lol, "MACSYMA UPGRADE SPECIAL OFFER" 11:13:25 -!- IceD^ [~iced@live.bn.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:13:28 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:20 Xach: what are you using iolib for ? 11:15:37 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello062178135013.2.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:15:53 fe[nl]ix: adding it to my library install project 11:16:10 fe[nl]ix: so, nothing right now, but if it's easily available, maybe something in the future 11:21:42 Xach: tell us more about this library install project :) 11:22:24 it is super awesome! 11:22:30 =) 11:22:34 i can mention more later, gotta drive. 11:22:45 fe[nl]ix: that is very funny 11:23:31 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:29:16 uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:56 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:32:46 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:34:02 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qvaytujewanfcghn] has joined #lisp 11:34:35 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:14 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qvaytujewanfcghn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:42:24 -!- sid3k` is now known as sid3k 11:44:42 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cwwjzbewqfmbwcuk] has joined #lisp 11:48:25 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-59-208.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 11:55:32 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:56:22 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:03 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:59:59 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:00 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-118.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:05:23 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:56 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:10:00 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:06 luis: so far, it's very approximately "the library parts of clbuild as http-based snapshots". with the http part bootstrapping from a single lisp file you cl:load. cross-implementation and cross-operating system. 12:15:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 12:15:55 the cross-operating system part comes from implementing tar and gunzip in portable cl. 12:16:00 davazp [~user@83.55.178.113] has joined #lisp 12:16:07 (thanks, froydnj!) 12:17:40 zomgbie [~jesus@chello062178135013.2.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:18:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:20:39 -!- aw [~aw@w4359.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 12:20:47 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-197.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:06 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-62-34.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:46 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:58 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:26:30 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:33 heh, mine isn't as simple, unfortunately 12:28:37 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 though I plan on making it very easy to use for end-user 12:29:07 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:36 Xach: sounds interesting 12:30:47 -!- pjb is now known as Guest63768 12:31:05 I'll have to recover my windows machine for mine, though 12:31:12 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:31:18 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:25 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:36 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 12:31:55 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 i was able to start from a fresh lispworks for windows personal edition, load the bootstrapper, and write out a sweet, beautiful PNG with vecto in a couple minutes. 12:32:07 -!- Guest63768 is now known as pjb`` 12:32:10 (I need Windows Devkit + .NET for some parts - not necessary for using it or even building,other than distribution package for win32) 12:32:56 -!- pjb`` is now known as pjb 12:33:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:52 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:17 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:34:48 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:15 alama [~user@193.136.122.17] has joined #lisp 12:36:59 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:39:14 Odin- [~sbkhh@hugmyndahus.hir.is] has joined #lisp 12:40:01 *lichtblau* still thinks there should be a SBCL-for-Windows installer with a clickable little GUI listener out-of-the-box 12:40:57 Perhaps the "install 3rd-party packages" bootstrap script could be included with that to grab exciting add-on packages afterwards. 12:41:14 For who, exactly, though? 12:42:56 Actually, partly for myself. Building SBCL in msys is annoying enough. Working in cmd.exe is out of the question. I don't like having to set up emacs on Windows either. 12:43:14 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 Odin-: clbuild has always been a dogfood project, too. I wouldn't have worked on that if I hadn't used it myself. That others find it helpful is nice, but that alone wouldn't be sufficient motivation to keep working on it. 12:45:47 The same rule applies to any analogous project for Windows. 12:46:03 Sure, it just sounded like a "someone needs to do this" kind of thing, not "I'd find this very useful". :) 12:46:35 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:07 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:26 *Xach* discovers (setf) is a valid form 12:47:41 O_o 12:48:25 Odin-: well, I guess I'm working on it, progress is just a bit slow. Qt-based Hemlock mostly has gone from non-existing to mostly working on Windows in a year. I've started toying with a GUI for clbuild, which would in theory support Windows, but it currently lacks a reimplementation of the shell script in Lisp to be actually useful. 12:49:46 lichtblau: the third-party tarballs are indexed with plain text files at the moment, with the idea that other tools could be built on the project data + relationship data. 12:50:04 *Xach* is implementing one particular use of that data, can imagine more 12:50:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:53:10 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:53:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:53:42 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:55:38 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:55:50 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:07 aw [~aw@w4359.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:40 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111078.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:58:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qfvzwmwsirwpuxwe] has left #lisp 12:58:47 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:14 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has left #lisp 13:00:18 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:02:36 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:37 Xach: and (setq) too. 13:03:01 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:17 lichtblau: I implemented a 'shell' in CL. 13:04:07 POSIX sh compliant, or some such insanity? O_o 13:04:36 exoskeleton? 13:04:57 pjb: it makes perfect sense from the description, but i had a half-written form (setf ) in a defun and i ignorantly expected it to error on compile. 13:05:00 Odin-: no, nothing compliant, but similar. 13:05:19 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:05:47 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:05:53 pjb: clsh sounds like it would be an intriguingly insane project. 13:06:00 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:03 8) 13:08:31 pjb: open source by any chance ? 13:09:21 Yes. Let me paste it, it's not public yet. 13:09:43 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:05 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 13:10:39 maybe i wouldn't mind helping it being posix compliant 13:12:28 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:12:38 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:12:42 The purpose is to be able to write little embedded command shells in applications. 13:13:12 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:13 You define 'buit-in' commands in CL with define-command, and you invoke the command 'REPL' command-repl. 13:13:52 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:13:54 I use it in a little program used to browse ls-lR files, where I implement cd, pushd, popd, pwd, and ls commands. 13:14:08 and eventually find. 13:15:05 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 13:20:41 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111254 13:21:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:47 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:20 The code to expand the pathnames (*, ?, {}, []) is in ls-lR-browser.lisp 13:22:51 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn190.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 13:24:22 Joreji [~thomas@77-010.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:26:59 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:44 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.45] has joined #lisp 13:28:37 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-253.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:13 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-201.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:32:22 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:22 bigwavejake [~bigwaveja@cpe-174-096-081-102.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:36:21 i'm using drakma to download an rss feed, but i keep getting a stream of bytes, even when i set *drakma-default-external-format* to utf-8... how can I get a string? 13:36:43 :element-type 'character somewhere perhaps? 13:39:46 pjb, i don't see anything like that in the docs... any other ideas? 13:40:00 Sorry, I never used drakma. 13:40:21 pjb: your lisp shell looks very nice 13:40:22 You can convert the bytes to strings. There are implementations dependent functions for that, and some libraries provide a portable API. 13:40:31 billitch: thanks. 13:41:10 It should be packaged. The path expansion stuff should be modularised for use in general applications. 13:41:28 Right now, it uses ls-lR-filesystem functions. 13:41:53 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B201FAC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:59 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:04 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:44:30 is it ready to be packaged ? will you publish a git repository ? would you be interested in posix compliance ? 13:45:43 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 13:47:38 bigwavejake: does sever return the right mine type? 13:47:41 mime 13:47:52 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 13:48:13 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:49:01 billitch: I don't have time now and for the forseable future to further work on it. If you're interested, I would put up a git repository. 13:49:33 bigwavejake: read documentation of flexi-streams and use stream output in Drakma 13:49:48 no! 13:49:53 stassats: ? 13:50:11 pass the right mime type 13:50:18 *p_l* only had a case of getting both text and binary data, so that's what he did 13:50:52 pjb: i dont plan to use it in short term but i could contribute pipes and redirections, i would definitely git clone this =) 13:51:15 billitch: I'm not sure what the purpose of POSIX compliance would be however. POSIX shells are quite quicky. 13:51:19 Redirections would be good. 13:51:22 e.g. (drakma:http-request ... :content-type "text/plain") 13:51:33 tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.48] has joined #lisp 13:51:39 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 13:52:11 uh oh, it's for sending, ignore me 13:53:26 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello062178135013.2.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:29 stassats, so :content-type is ignored with an http-request? 13:54:30 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:31 quicky ? 13:54:35 (but fixing the server works) 13:54:45 quirky 13:54:54 bigwavejake: it's for sending data 13:55:36 pjb: What license is your option parsing stuff under? 13:56:45 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:46 GPL 13:58:29 Published at: git clone http://git.informatimago.com/public/ls-lR/ 13:59:33 pjb: yay 13:59:38 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-138-154.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:49 G'morning all. 13:59:56 pjb: Any chance you consider licensing it under mit? 14:00:14 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:01:09 Yes. If I win the lottery, I will. Otherwise commercial licenses may be negociated. Otherwise, I need more time to meditate about it. 14:02:13 I'm fond of the LGPL, myself 14:02:56 You see, I really had a couple of customers asking me about modifying some programs that were proprietary, whose vendors didn't answer requests for sources or patches, so I'd really want to see the sources of the commercial programs in exchange, as the price, of my sources. 14:03:03 longkid [~longkid@113.22.179.196] has joined #lisp 14:03:52 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:03:54 Which is to say, that I would really prefer you to use my code under GPL than buying me a commercial license. 14:04:06 fiveop [~fiveop@g229178218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:19 how is the progress on replacing asdf with asdf2 in sbcl? 14:04:25 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 14:05:02 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:54 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-54-10.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:10 attila_lendvai: lack of time + nobody cares enough 14:06:20 (I guess anyway) 14:06:42 we'd like to play more with xcvb, but it needs asdf2 for building 14:07:05 kroger [~user@187.59.135.122] has joined #lisp 14:07:06 It's supposed to be self-upgradable so that should not be a big problem, is it? 14:07:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:47 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-108-118.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 i use asdf from git with sbcl 14:08:05 tcr: i think asdf2 is the one that contains many changes that made its self upgradability flawless 14:08:42 billitch: so, does it mean i'm wrong, and i can just load asdf2 over the asdf in sbcl? 14:08:58 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:58 pjb: I publish stuff because I like to do so. Pay back is improvements, and praise. I see no point in restricting people how they use my stuff. 14:09:07 ...and lose cl:require integration, which i don't care about much 14:09:17 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:42 I mean it makes me feel good and proud if they do use it, so why restrict it? 14:09:59 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-54-10.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:03 -!- kroger [~user@187.59.135.122] has left #lisp 14:10:10 Unless someone has something on GPL vs MIT license that hasn't been said over a thousand times on usenet, I suggest a subject change 14:10:40 *attila_lendvai* deleted his unsent line about the subject 14:10:53 screw 'em both, i vote Public Domain! 14:11:07 tcr: well, while you have a job, I can understand that. But you don't always have a job. In my case, I'm free-lance, and there are low periods, and I can confirm that there are people out there who don't let you use their electricity, network connection, shelter and food without counterpart. 14:11:13 DWTFYW license? 14:12:18 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 14:12:20 pjb: imho, you need to be famous enough for people to come to you with money. GPL is an obstacle to that, especially when use it on generally useful things like command line parsing 14:12:23 It's true that it really doesn't amount to much, and if you can keep your computer for a long time, you can reduce your expenses to a minimum. But when this minimum is to available, you just cannot go on producing free software. So again, I see GPL as a way to provide me more work, more customers. 14:12:30 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.178.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:28 attila_lendvai: how can I tell if it is asdf2 ? 14:13:48 also, most people pay for services, not software... especially in CL 14:14:06 attila_lendvai: you're right, but there are also other requirements, which may not always be fullfilled. 14:14:25 *Xach* sells CL software 14:14:54 *Xach* has also sold CL libraries to other CL hackers a few times... 14:15:00 billitch: (featurep :asdf2) ? 14:15:02 *Xach* ain't quitting the day job 14:15:16 pjb: if i were to buy a commercial license from you for your stuff, would i then be free to do what i want with the sources? 14:15:37 billitch: are you using this? git clone git://common-lisp.net/projects/asdf/asdf.git 14:15:42 hypno: almost, yes. 14:15:47 if a type is defined by deftype, can I defmethod specialised on it? 14:16:02 leo2007: nope unfortunately not 14:16:11 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.179.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:16:14 not even if it expands to a proper class name 14:16:30 -!- aw [~aw@w4359.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 14:16:30 seriously, how much money did you make by selling licenses? 14:16:35 -!- errkle [~user@lawn-143-215-206-57.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:45 I never sold any. 14:16:49 and I can't put a built-in type/class in the super-class list, right? 14:16:51 attila_lendvai: yes 14:16:57 pjb: "almost" suggest some restriction. would those be no more drastic than what is available under PD/MIT/BSD-license? 14:17:01 errkle [~user@lawn-143-215-206-57.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 attila_lendvai: but i'm not sure if it's asdf2 14:17:30 billitch: also, a "git log" will show a "Releasing ASDF 2.000. Yeah!" close to the top 14:17:43 leo2007: yes 14:17:53 hypno: I would keep the copyright on the source, otherwise the commercial license would let you do whatever you want with it, yes. 14:18:09 pjb: ok, good. 14:18:29 we use BSD license for all of our software and we still make a lot of money... did I say a lot? 14:18:33 maden [~maden@dsl-150-186.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 14:18:35 tcr: thanks. 14:18:59 -!- errkle [~user@lawn-143-215-206-57.lawn.gatech.edu] has left #lisp 14:18:59 levente_meszaros: but I assume it's not just libraries. 14:19:05 You're making money on applications. 14:19:06 heh, a lot... you mean we're still alive? :) 14:19:07 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:19:16 the money comes from services and custom software instead of licenses 14:19:20 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:29 pjb: that's the point: you make money on services (apps) not on libs 14:21:05 As I said, the problem is not people in the "community" who also produce freedom software. GPL doesn't target them. If you produce freedom software, you should have no problem in including GPL software with it. 14:21:08 and a random fact: the projects themselves which made the money (and are not BSD of course) are about 1% of our codebase. 99% is BSD. 14:21:34 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:21:40 You might want to avoid "derivate" your software from GPL software, if you want to avoid having to GPL it, but this gives a lot of leeway. 14:21:58 but if the 99% can make otehr lispers more productive, they'll hardly compete with us on the market we're on 14:22:10 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:15 -!- Samy [~sbahra@c-68-48-66-31.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:37 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:57 It's really a "philosophical" question, and I definitely need more time to think about it. Later. 14:22:58 ...and of course by contribution will make value for us 14:23:18 attila_lendvai: and goodwill from other programmers 14:23:20 i'm not sure about this... it's just another point of view... 14:23:40 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:23 dlowe: although, i hardly know about people using anything from that 99%... so, what i said is a bit of wapour... :) 14:24:41 although, perec and stefil gained some momentum 14:24:54 attila_lendvai: well, you've got my goodwill for stefil and helping out with local-time 14:24:56 pjb: What I need is an option parser thingie; I haven't actually looked at your beyond the one example you showed. From that I think i'll want it slightly differently, but your code maybe a good starting point. So ideally I'll return value. 14:25:16 tcr, what about Fare's command-line-options? 14:25:28 we use that and it does its job pretty well 14:25:39 but our threaded http server and the ajaxy component ui over it is completely unknown, while i think it's maybe even more useful than perec 14:26:04 Yeah maybe I'll build on top of that 14:26:20 tcr: have you had a look at unix-options ? It's a CL package to parse unix style options. 14:26:34 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 14:26:40 dlowe: ...as you get my goodwill for darcs initializing local-time :) 14:26:49 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cwwjzbewqfmbwcuk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:30:28 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-12-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:30:40 ok, i'm using trivial-http instead of drakma. i get a stream back from http-get. how do i read the entire contents of a string into a variable? 14:30:55 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:23 ... READ-SEQUENCE, maybe? 14:31:23 *how do i read the entire contents of a STREAM into a variable? 14:31:51 bigwavejake: what type of stream? 14:32:06 socket stream... it's an atom/rss feed 14:32:24 bigwavejake: I mean character or binary, actually. 14:32:36 Xach, how can i tell? 14:33:06 bigwavejake: describe might tell you. 14:33:09 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:28 bigwavejake: anyway, one way is to make an adjustable vector, then use read-char or read-byte to get items from the stream and vector-push-extend them into the vector. 14:33:32 (with-output-to-string (string-stream) (alexandria:copy-stream http-stream string-stream)) 14:33:34 bigwavejake: there are many other ways. 14:33:42 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:33:55 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:45 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:50 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:29 -!- bigwavejake [~bigwaveja@cpe-174-096-081-102.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:39:46 Or read-sequence to try and do it as much as possible in bulk 14:40:18 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:40:42 sellout [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:15 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:16 finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has joined #lisp 14:44:05 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:32 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:46:53 -!- uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:47:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-62-34.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:53:35 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:42 Devon [~devon@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:54:47 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:59 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:55:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:58:48 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:29 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:11 -!- gz_ [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 15:00:11 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:58 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:02:22 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-109-60.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:04:25 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-99-23-146-3.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:04:42 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-146-3.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:31 aw [~aw@xhss48-406aa.wh13.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:52 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.48] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:17 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:37 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:08:58 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 15:11:24 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:15 blackthorn <- trivial-features cli-parser cl-fad iterate cl-containers mt19937 usocket cl-store lispbuilder-sdl lispbuilder-sdl-image lispbuilder-sdl-mixer cl-opengl 15:14:51 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:15:52 Xach: link? 15:16:14 p_l: to blackthorn? 15:16:27 http://code.google.com/p/blackthorn-engine/ is it 15:16:48 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:54 thx 15:17:51 'game engine'? 15:17:56 That's vague 15:18:16 Magical and revolutionary. 15:18:38 Most everything is. 15:18:52 current game :depends-on (:iolib :rucksack :local-time :cl-ppcre :ironclad) 15:19:10 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d819ddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:11 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:19:16 milanj [~milanj_@79.101.139.186] has joined #lisp 15:19:17 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-253-120.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 hi 15:19:42 can I get the path of '~/' somehow? 15:19:51 wakeup: cl:user-homedir-pathname usually. 15:19:52 user-homedir-pathname 15:19:56 :( 15:20:05 I even typed out three extra characters. 15:20:19 oh thx 15:20:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:21:58 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:22:10 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:46 Xach: what software do you sell 15:22:49 *p_l* ponders using #. to generate instance classes for cli-parser 15:23:10 felideon: I sell roflbot and I've sold the layout system behind http://xach.com/moviecharts/ 15:23:36 oh nice 15:23:59 really? There's a market for roflbots? 15:24:55 Xach: do you run all the lispstuff under your domain on the same lisp instance? 15:25:26 hypno: i have separate instances for l1sp.org, xach.com, and wigflip.com 15:25:39 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:25:42 Xach: gotcha. 15:25:46 dlowe: yes indeed. people email me several times a week asking for it. only a few turn into buyers, though. 15:26:05 *Xach* needs to make a lighter-weight product; the current one involves installing a lisp webserver 15:26:24 seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #lisp 15:26:51 Xach: they want their own roflbots rather than using your site? 15:26:55 *billitch* works on mutualized CL webapp server 15:27:07 felideon: yes. 15:27:28 so have you retired yet? :P 15:27:41 felideon: nope 15:27:48 clearly I am not writing stupid enough software 15:28:10 s/stupid/brilliant 15:28:12 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:28:27 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:37 the software is stupid, the idea for the software is brilliant :) 15:28:43 -!- aw [~aw@xhss48-406aa.wh13.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 15:28:52 dlowe: sounds like par for the course for everything 15:29:02 I have people frequently contact me for projects for which I have no time :( 15:29:10 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:23 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:24 One guy wants what is basically easystreet with a different font, for previewing custom australian license plates. 15:29:35 software is always better stupid, the interface only make it brilliant 15:29:47 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:50 lemo1nem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:50 -!- lemo1nem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:31:32 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:31:43 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-137-144.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:56 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:32:28 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-16-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:32:40 a bit like humans, we always prefer them stupid but with a good interface, right ? 15:33:46 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:54 i would add that only lisp can give you the best s-exp ever 15:33:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-62-34.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:34:21 symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:34:51 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@136.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:35:12 johanbev [~johanbev@136.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:33 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:36:25 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:36:42 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 no one has ever made that joke in the past 50 years 15:38:02 it's not just programming : isn't science as a whole just a big list of stupid reductionisms with good abstraction, modularity, vocabulary ? 15:38:46 ... That's a bit -too- reductionist a viewpoint, isn't it? 15:39:29 why ? 15:41:42 simpler, composable concepts are always more powerful, the rest being concatenation of data, and concepts as data 15:42:13 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 like in "i really wish macros were simpler" 15:43:44 That's great, except reality doesn't seem to operate on simple composable concepts. 15:44:04 i think that reality does not operate 15:44:33 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-rqbvvwwimsojzztf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:36 ah, well then science is pretty meaningless then, isn't it 15:44:57 science is messy 15:45:00 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:45:00 we model operations in a reality (truth assertions on observations), and these operations are in the end composition of neural spikes, what more simple thing could be ? 15:45:34 science is useful when brought simple by technology, built on simple tools easily composable 15:45:49 your certainty overwhelms 15:46:08 most scientists do not share your faith 15:46:21 huh interpretation, not faith 15:46:36 whatever 15:46:51 like i said : there is no truth, just assertions based on observations, most scientist forget that 15:47:05 ... 15:47:16 hi... I have a question about depolyment of a web application using hunchentoot on sbcl onto a remote server.... 15:47:25 yay! A lispy topic! 15:47:32 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 15:47:51 lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:30 if I dump a core file and tell sbcl to load an init script with this core file, do I need any of the fasls? 15:48:31 rrice: Ask the question quickly some weird fallibility of science is about to begin 15:48:40 dlowe: to end this, maybe we don't define simple the same : in my view lisp is a simple language, much more than C for instance 15:48:40 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 15:48:47 weird/weird discussion 15:48:53 of 15:49:25 lambda calculus is simple 15:49:36 rrice: no 15:49:46 i just wrapped up teaching a course on type theory :-> 15:49:57 rrice: you might find buildapp helpful for this, too. i made it with situations like that in mind. 15:50:46 Xach: I'll have to look into that. Thanks 15:50:48 rrice: One other approach is to run the sbcl on the server and then remote in on the swank port 15:51:02 You can use screen to detach the process and leave it running 15:51:23 Guthur: other approach to what? 15:51:33 Guthur: i think you are addressing a different issue 15:51:45 To running sbcl and hunchentoot on a remote server 15:51:52 Maybe I misinterpretted 15:51:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:52:32 Guthur: that's what I have now. I had two sets of clbuild, one local, one remote. I was thinking that it should be simpler.... 15:52:35 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:52 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:53:34 I just push the code to a bare git repo on the server then remote into sbcl and load with asdf. 15:53:46 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:53:53 code/source 15:54:29 Guther: Ideally, I would want to develop on the local and push to the remote, but I see why having the source remotely would be helpful. 15:54:47 rrice: I do develop locally 15:55:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:26 That's why it's a bare repo, it's just one way to push 15:55:49 It allows me to quickly push a branch to the server 15:55:52 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:57 Guthur: I understand. That was another option I was considering. So many options :-) 15:56:09 dlowe: i guess we just lack common vocabulary, maybe my vision of "simple" is a bit broad... =) I have to run, sorry for the noise... 15:56:46 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:56:48 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@67.201.78.8] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 15:57:05 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-195-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:57:23 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-54-10.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:29 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 15:58:53 Guther: So, your repo contains sources of all dependencies. Then your app is compiled on the remote server, right? 15:58:55 sepult` [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:52 rrice: I usually handle dependencies separately 15:59:59 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:10 I'm just about to move to clbuild on my server actually 16:00:32 -!- billitch [~billitch@g225098030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01:18 It'll be interesting to see how I can integrate the git repo approach with clbuild 16:01:40 You could use git hooks to copy the .asd file after a push 16:01:50 copy/link 16:01:53 sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:27 Which might be an interesting way of 'registering' a project with clbuild 16:02:35 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 16:02:42 Hello folks, I wonder if people can give me some comments on my first piece of CLOS code here http://paste.lisp.org/display/111264. Thank you. 16:02:51 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:02:51 Guthur: That's what I was wondering, too. I have clbuild on both sides. The main issue: one clbuild has more updated dependencies than the other. 16:03:22 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-16-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:04:13 rrice, not sure if there is really a nice way to do that, unless maybe you could possibly make the clbuild a bare repo as well, not sure how successful that would be, but seems like it might work. 16:05:03 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-16-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:05:21 But clbuild should allow you to keep repos up to date quite easily. 16:05:35 Guthur: Maybe a hybrid approach. Put the common dependencies in monster.core, and have a git repo for my app :-) 16:06:11 leo2007: why not create the plots in a macro, with-xxx-plot 16:06:30 hehe, I have some interesting decisions coming up by the looks of it as well. 16:06:50 I'm still rebuilding my server at the moment, need to get the MTA setup first 16:06:54 xristos: you mean discard CLOS and just use macros? 16:07:40 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-137-42.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:08:03 leo2007: no i mean it seems you create plots and throw them away after one operation 16:08:11 Blkt [~user@93-33-137-42.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:08:14 so instead of me doing (line-plot (make-line-plot) 16:08:23 i'd like to do (with-line-plot plot ... 16:09:31 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.101] has joined #lisp 16:09:58 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-16-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:10:23 xristos: I see. I have been thinking about wrapping that inside a function (to be exported) to offer a flexible interface such as http://www.mathworks.com/access/helpdesk/help/techdoc/ref/plot.html 16:10:25 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 16:10:43 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 16:10:58 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 16:11:51 hi, is it possible to make all of a packages symbols external, without specifying them one by one? This is a special package that doesn't use :cl and only contains handful of symbols 16:12:36 leo2007: effectively what i'm saying is you could add another macro to setu an environment like you do in do-plot but have it take the data you use to initialise aswell and create the plot 16:12:55 in case i don't want to keep the plot object around 16:13:31 ignotus: if it contains just a handful of symbols, why not specify them one by one? 16:13:54 ignotus: (the plain answer to your question is yes, use do-symbols) 16:15:23 adeht: I would always forget adding it to the list of external symbols if I do that by hand; thanks I'm checking out do-symbols 16:16:01 aw [~aw@p54B3E00C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:51 xristos: something like (defmacro with-line-plot ((plot x &optional y) &rest body) ....) 16:18:31 the macro take the data x and y and create the instance that is bound to plot 16:18:45 -!- aw [~aw@p54B3E00C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:37 aw [~aw@p54B3E00C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:57 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:23 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 16:21:42 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:22:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:11 dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-werbtoztxlhapfof] has joined #lisp 16:22:20 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:23 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:12 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:25:38 aw|rerun [~aw@89.204.153.66] has joined #lisp 16:25:48 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:49 -!- aw [~aw@p54B3E00C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:25:51 -!- aw|rerun is now known as aw 16:28:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:52 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:53 drewc mentioned he used cl-stm. Anyone else tried it and liked it? 16:34:21 marioxcc [~user@200.92.161.173] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:38:09 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.101] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:42:19 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:43:00 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-151-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:49 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:02 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:46:02 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:59 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:47:07 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:47:07 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:50:43 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:44 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:51:25 lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:58 -!- maxigas [~user@host86-173-4-249.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:58:34 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-161-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:58:42 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:59:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-151-229.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:00:35 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:02:18 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-135-165.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:00 hi, is this the best way to "undefine" a function? (defun foo ()) (unintern 'foo) 17:03:18 clhs fmakunbound 17:03:22 clhs fmakunbound 17:03:24 Err... 17:03:24 hm 17:03:30 Damnit, specbot gone again? 17:03:34 dlowe: nyef: thanks 17:05:22 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 17:05:57 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@204-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:06:10 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.186] has joined #lisp 17:06:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:06:51 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:07 peddie_ [~peddie@adsl-99-56-139-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:46 -!- peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-25-114-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:07 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:19:10 is there a specified way to get load/compile order out of an ASDF system? 17:23:31 p_l: (defun asdf:get-load-compile-order (system) :undetermined) :P 17:24:11 heh 17:24:40 sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:53 -!- alama [~user@193.136.122.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:33 hi drewc. do you still use cl-stm? 17:25:50 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:04 Xach: nope, hate the code walker 17:26:12 ok 17:26:14 Xach: are you looking for an STM solution? 17:26:33 drewc: no, looking to add to my vast blob of libraries 17:26:49 I don't want to add things just for the sake of adding 'em. 17:26:54 abugosh [~Adium@m3b2436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:54 well, maybe I do, a little :) 17:26:59 :D 17:27:10 *Xach* has lisp-on-lines, after all 17:27:17 :P 17:27:31 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-171-25-183.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:39 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-werbtoztxlhapfof] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 17:29:53 *Xach* has 288 systems from 190 projects available 17:31:29 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-179-51.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:32:22 Xach: this is for your distribution? that's a significant number of libraries! 17:33:08 Xach: and you checked them all? 17:33:16 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:35:05 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:48 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:37:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:39:01 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:14 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:41:33 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 17:41:55 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 17:42:29 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:42:31 hello 17:43:24 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@hugmyndahus.hir.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:43:33 stassats: "checked" in what sense? 17:43:52 stassats: they are projects for which at least one of the included .asd files successfully compiles & loads its system. 17:43:57 Xach: that they're working 17:44:12 in most cases, that means the main .asd (few projects have multiple .asds) 17:44:31 stassats: they work in a superficial sense. 17:44:55 I think this could be used a basis for less superficial and more useful testing. 17:45:08 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:11 -!- Intensity [UsRba9orpO@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:46:20 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:47:42 stassats: I did test Vecto on LispWorks for Windows. Works great :) 17:47:47 1 down, 189 to go 17:49:42 -!- zoldar [~zoldar@ods82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:51:21 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:43 http://xach.livejournal.com/192603.html from a couple years ago is now playing a useful part in this project 17:51:51 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:53:15 ayanes [~ayanes@jam3.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 17:53:37 -!- abugosh [~Adium@m3b2436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:53:45 Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:54:47 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 17:55:49 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56:02 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:00:25 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-57-82-249-60-10.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:21 -!- aw [~aw@89.204.153.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:02:09 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-161-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:17 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:06:40 sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:04 uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:35 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: lnostdal] 18:12:25 -!- PissedNu1lock is now known as PissedNumlock 18:12:47 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:13:30 lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:53 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:44 *p_l* notes that no "let's make java code in Lisp" system supports anything newer than 1.4 18:16:04 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:16:24 -!- ans [~user@user123.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:29 p_l: probably the idea has gone out of fashion 18:16:39 what systems are there that do that, anyway? 18:17:23 jil and LinJ 18:17:52 jil generates bytecode directly it seems, while LinJ creates Java source 18:18:13 Maybe I'll manage to get some Java 5 stuff done through special symbol names... 18:18:22 (in LinJ) 18:19:06 hmm, what are you trying to do with it? 18:19:11 dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-hdlmbixcnkxgbudj] has joined #lisp 18:19:29 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.186] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 18:19:33 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:19:37 (while searching for LinJ, I found this wonderful item: http://tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html) 18:19:56 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.186] has joined #lisp 18:20:46 hah, i saw that year ago, good read 18:21:45 p_l: why not just use ABCL or clojure? 18:21:54 *drewc* is not a fan of CL->foo code generators 18:22:51 billitch [~billitch@i59F736BD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:29 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:23:39 drewc: for a small number of threads, there are a few lock-based STMs that could work without or with very little instrumentation. 18:24:24 pkhuong: i'm using pascal costansa's CSTM code personally 18:25:23 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.109] has joined #lisp 18:25:28 Where's that? 18:27:09 Vinzent [~Vinzent@188.16.68.143] has joined #lisp 18:27:30 the only copy in the wild, AFAIK, is on my hard drive 18:27:59 join us now and share the software! 18:28:05 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082CED4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:11 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-38-71.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:28:33 lisppaste: url? 18:28:47 come on then lisppaste... 18:29:05 not that i don't know the url or anything... 18:29:51 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-12-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:43 heh 18:31:24 -!- ayanes [~ayanes@jam3.kyla.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:31 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082FAFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:31:43 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111267 18:32:29 i'm working personally on an MVCC layer for that as well. pluggable transaction strategies is a big boon IMO 18:33:26 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:36:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:36:17 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:36:37 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:51 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:37:26 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:37:57 Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@79.126.85.186] has joined #lisp 18:38:26 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:17 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:39:20 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:36 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:30 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 drewc: ABCL doesn't run on Dalvik, I'm not a big fan of Clojure so far... 18:41:10 p_l: What are your main issues with Clojure, other than it not being CL? 18:41:26 p_l: ahh, Dalvik 18:41:28 Zhivago: if you would ask me: it not being CL. 18:41:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 p_l: maybe abcl needs a dalvik backend? 18:41:55 ehu: So, nothing, then :) 18:42:00 Zhivago: my main issue is that you can't reasonably use it for real programs without also knowing Java 18:42:25 Zhivago: back when I tested it, being not-so-easy to setup, slow funcalls (probably fixed by now) and volatile changes (now that it's 1.1 it might have changed). Also it's not CL... 18:43:16 michael__ [~chatzilla@dslb-094-217-035-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 -!- Vinzent [~Vinzent@188.16.68.143] has quit [Quit: Vinzent] 18:43:27 p_l: so, why do you need a full cl->java translator? why not a DSL (with a compiler in CL) spefically for android development? 18:43:31 Zhivago: it not being CL could also be interpreted as "not fit for (my) purpose" 18:43:42 ehu: Yes, but I'm not interested in that reason. 18:43:55 drewc: because that's kinda what jil and linj are :D 18:45:02 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:40 p_l: linj is a compiler from a lisp to java... do you really need that? i was thinking more of an android specific DSL than a lisp. 18:45:45 tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:57 p_l: if you decide to work on a dalvik backend, or digging up enough info to implement one: keep me in the loop. 18:46:03 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:46:09 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:51 drewc: LinJ is more of a CL-like Javaesque language with a compiler in CL, with the whole language designed to resemble CL 18:46:52 i suppose it depends on the app, but i've delivered php apps that were compiled from s-expressions. Semtantically, very close to php, syntactically closer to lisp.. with macros of course. 18:46:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-76.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:36 -!- seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:15 seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #lisp 18:48:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:48:32 ehu: big change that would allow ABCL to work for Android would be complete removal of runtime code emit and usage of normal .class files instead of custom loader 18:48:34 p_l: right... and i'm wondering why you need such a general purpose tool for what seems (to me) to be a fairly specific problem. Mostly because i'm looking to get into some android development myself, and you might know something i dont. 18:49:10 p_l: actually that's a small change. 18:49:19 am i alone i not wanting or needing a full cl in my (browser/phone/toaster/wristwatch)? 18:49:21 our .cls files are .class files 18:49:25 in not wanting* 18:49:54 and runtime code emit simply means to make a few compile-related functions do nothing but coerce to a function 18:50:31 drewc: You'd need a full JVM feature set to make any bigger app. LinJ is basically a Sexp-to-Java generator with some nice stuff that is missing from Java (it's slightly more intelligent, so less typing necessary) 18:50:41 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:50:42 p_l: dmiles_afk already did that once to make abcl run on .Net (C# integration) 18:51:08 drewc: http://paste.lisp.org/display/105701 <--- have an example of LinJ version of Android "Hello World" 18:52:40 (btw, android-7.jar contains classes for Android 2.1) 18:53:52 -!- michael__ [~chatzilla@dslb-094-217-035-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:53:52 p_l: and what does the generated code look like? 18:54:35 drewc: the presentation on Linj made it clear that idiomatic generated java code was the goal 18:54:42 taht presentation was from 5-6 years ago though 18:54:47 maybe more. 18:54:48 -!- sellout [~greg@75-25-126-88.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 18:55:32 http://paste.lisp.org/+29K5/1 18:56:00 p_l: yeah, i've seen that, which is why i was asking. 18:56:37 drewc: afaik mathrick plans to make the XML part generated from a DSL as well 18:57:50 http://developer.android.com/guide/tutorials/hello-world.html <--- well, the LinJ code is actually more related to the later, XML-powered example 18:58:42 -!- billitch [~billitch@i59F736BD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:59:39 Is slime rather sketchy or is it just me? 18:59:39 First it croaks when I slime-eval-last-expression on a megacharacter long sexpt, now 18:59:40 Error in KERNEL::UNBOUND-SYMBOL-ERROR-HANDLER: the variable SWANK-BACKEND::*SLDB-STACK-TOP* is unbound. 18:59:40 -!- Arelius [~user@208.80.117.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:31 Devon: not generally sketchy. 19:00:32 Devon: are you using the latest slime with the latest release of your lisp? 19:00:41 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:43 Devon: what implementation? 19:01:43 p_l: what do you need from Java 1.5+? 19:02:39 (list slime-protocol-version (slime-lisp-implementation-version)) ==> ("2010-04-12" "20a (20A Unicode)") 19:03:03 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:03:21 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03:51 mathrick: Generics 19:04:06 cmucl, oh well 19:04:17 Devon: why CMUCL? any particular attachment to it? 19:04:23 mathrick: they will be necessary for any serious app 19:04:45 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:49 p_l: I guess 19:05:01 mathrick: right now, I gave in and installed java dev. kit for Eclipse (I had eclipse for TOMOYO GUI) 19:05:21 There was something missing from SBCL but I don't even remember what anymore 19:05:28 Xach: speaking of sharing the code, have you published your shell macros anywhere? 19:05:42 (sorry if you have, but I haven't seen it anywhere and I asked before) 19:05:56 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 19:06:00 p_l: eclipse is incredibly painful to use 19:06:04 certainly not correct *default-pathname-defaults* merging. 19:06:10 Devon: so you have no reasons to use cmucl? 19:06:27 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:45 -!- Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@79.126.85.186] has left #lisp 19:06:48 Devon: While the CMU manual lists a lot of nice stuff that isn't in SBCL, I can't recall any that would be actually necessary (there was class sealing and some stuff related to block compiling etc... nothing more) 19:08:27 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:32 Whatever my initial reason for favoring CMU over SBCL was, I've forgotten it so it probably no longer holds. 19:09:12 Maybe all the !'s were too weird for me. 19:09:22 then I advise you to use SBCL with Slime, because more people use it in that combination 19:09:26 Devon: well, there are many good reasons to choose SBCL over CMUCL that still hold, so i think you should go for it. 19:09:36 so I hear 19:09:39 Devon: you are hacking on the implementation? 19:09:51 which means that it's more tested 19:09:56 btw, was it possible to bootstrap CMUCL without the same CMUCL version? 19:10:01 I was but I can't get the latest CMUCL to compile anymore. 19:10:18 Xach: I'd be definitely interested in having it put anywhere in a semi-coherent form, as it's exactly what I wanted to have, and you claimed it to be a surprisingly pleasant alternative to sh 19:10:36 Bootstrapping cmucl required various kinds of interesting magic to go from version to version. 19:10:40 Devon: SBCL is written in Common Lisp, so it's a much nicer environment for hacking, imo. 19:10:43 p_l: no, AFAIK 19:11:10 full bootstrap of CMUCL has you go back to spice lisp I think and some long forgotten machines 19:11:32 mathrick: my personal search suggests that full bootstrap of CMUCL requires a PDP-10 19:11:32 LOL 19:11:39 I have one 19:11:52 Devon: PDP-10? seriously? 19:12:12 p_l: yeah, I didn't want to give particular names without doing the research I was too lazy for :) 19:12:49 mathrick: Well, I did have a HTTP server written in Maclisp somewhere... Been running some PDP-10 code few years ago :) 19:12:51 am I still pointing and laughing at people who can't compile CMUCL? Seriously? In 2010? 19:12:55 only the emulator myself, but BoB S. and Doug H. had 'em in their garages last time I asked and they're happy to let me hack on 'em. 19:13:36 what exactly functional programming means to common lisp? 19:13:57 leo2007: a certain style that isn't necessarily the easiest to follow 19:14:15 (if you want to go hardcore functional, get Haskell) 19:14:45 p_l: my friend told me that a year ago but I don't seem like haskell's syntax. 19:14:50 leo2007: an occasionally very useful style that's by no means the primary or (God forbid) exclusive style of programming in Lisp 19:15:02 functional means "it works" 19:15:05 heh 19:15:29 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:58 given that CPP is a pure functional language.... 19:16:17 but is it turing complete? 19:16:33 it's turings all the way down! 19:16:34 (and it even supports template metaprogramming and OO with C++ monad!) 19:16:46 *p_l* grabs brain bleach 19:17:05 pnq [asdf@ACA4A80B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:12 *leadnose_* doesn't know whether p_l meant c-pre-processor or c++ 19:17:37 all i know that it's off-topic 19:17:37 leadnose_: C Pre Processor. And yes, it's turing complete, you just execute your code in C monad ;-) 19:17:47 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:10 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-88-125-101.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:34 thecakeisalie [~user@173-164-85-86-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-122.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:19:30 sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:07 p_l: for FP in common lisp, how to avoid mutable variables? 19:20:28 leo2007: don't mutate them 19:20:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 19:21:15 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 19:22:00 that's it? 19:22:05 leo2007: yup 19:22:38 -!- thecakeisalie is now known as proq 19:22:45 -!- proq [~user@173-164-85-86-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:22:45 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 19:23:30 do you know how haskell does it? 19:24:15 the same way, you can't change variables in haskell 19:25:15 ice_man` [~user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:21 urnthr [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:31 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:27:01 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:15 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-201-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:28:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-010.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:29:14 I got CRC when pulling the clbuild darcs repo, would this be usually something on my end or the repo. 19:29:23 CRC errors* 19:29:38 -!- uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:29:40 you can safely ignore it 19:30:09 stassats, Is it something in the repo? 19:30:29 Guthur: darcs bug.. darcs gzcrcs --repair 19:30:46 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:31:31 adeht, Ah ok, cheers 19:32:14 leo2007: haskell acheives pure functional programming by being a purely functional programming language. 19:33:53 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.63.100.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:33:54 In CL, being an unpure language that supports a style of programming that might be called 'functional', it's a style choice. 19:34:14 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 19:35:12 you have to tie hands behind your back yourself 19:35:26 -!- urnthr [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:35:39 if you want to simulate FP, write a perfectly good program but don't let yourself compile it. 19:37:08 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:11 i practice imaginative programming, before sleep 19:37:51 tambot, whoowns audit 19:37:56 micloop [~michael@dslb-094-217-035-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:07 sorry, wrong window... :-/ 19:38:10 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:38:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:00 I'm trying to compile SBCL with clbuild on a server, but it complains with -> make.sh: 118: time: not found 19:41:11 'time' is available though 19:41:19 as a shell command? 19:41:24 you need a /bin/time 19:41:25 Yep 19:41:30 ah 19:42:27 Well actually I assume it is in /usr/bin/time, it does work from the command line 19:42:41 or you can run make.sh with bash 19:42:51 Guthur: which time? 19:42:52 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:08 Actually its not in /usr/bin/ 19:43:20 ("which time" is a shell command) 19:43:44 For timing the execution 19:43:50 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-174.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:43:58 time ls will time the listing of the directory 19:44:02 no, literally! 19:44:40 "which" is a shell command which "shows the full path of (shell) commands." 19:44:49 Ye just trying that 19:44:56 It doesn't return anything 19:44:57 this unix, with its confusing names 19:45:43 -!- micloop [~michael@dslb-094-217-035-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:46:25 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-hdlmbixcnkxgbudj] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 19:47:41 In your experience, is this correct, "almost anything you can do with macros you can do with a higher-order function"? 19:48:02 leo2007: not almost, but everything 19:48:30 macros just make some interfaces much nicer 19:48:39 but then, you can do everything with lambda calculus, and so we descend into a turing tarpit 19:49:38 stassats: that's interesting to know. 19:49:50 leo2007: of course... everything you can do with macros you can do with 1's and 0's 19:50:31 (it's completely pointless statement of course) 19:51:19 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 19:52:09 and one might say, if one cared about such things, that anything one can do with higher-order functions, one probably shouldn't be doing with macros. 19:52:22 so, macros work on the syntactic level, and themselves are just ordinary functions transforming source code 19:53:42 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:55:59 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:56:07 alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:57:10 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:57:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-88-125-101.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:05 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:33 So who wants to peek at the preliminary data for this project, which I think is already useful? 20:01:27 oh, darn it. 20:01:29 *Xach* fixes 20:01:31 Umm, should ; compiling (defun CIS ...) take a long time 20:02:08 Xach: i do i do! 20:02:23 Guthur: i suppose that really depends on what is in ..., doesn't it? 20:03:36 drewc: On it's moved on, sorry I've just never notice it take so long on one function 20:03:41 SBCL compile 20:03:47 http://src.quicklisp.org/releases.txt and http://src.quicklisp.org/systems.txt have a lot of data about snapshots and semi-snapshots of recent Lisp libraries. 20:03:50 CIS is a function i've never used 20:04:23 also, http://src.quicklisp.org/.tgz links to the latest thing in releases.txt, for quick access. 20:04:39 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:51 I need to add more metadata; I have a long list info about where each project was fetched from. 20:04:56 long list of info, rather. 20:05:24 ASIN seems to be taking just as long, possibly a memory issue actually 20:05:34 My VPS is rather lacking in that department 20:06:03 Guthur: are you hand holding SBCL while it compiles? 20:06:23 stassats: Just waiting really 20:06:35 I'm going to go off and do something else now 20:07:44 Guthur: run 'top' in another ssh login in your VPS 20:07:59 it'll tell you SBCL is doing something. (or kswapd) 20:08:14 *ehu* does that 20:09:12 drewc: are you thrilled to your very bones yet? 20:11:15 hehe, the compiling is hanging the system up so bad I can't even open a ssh connection 20:11:22 Phoodus [foo@174-17-6-14.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:12:17 that doesn't sound right. 20:12:22 how much memory does this system have? 20:12:34 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:12:43 palter [~palter@192.42.249.134] has joined #lisp 20:12:47 -!- palter [~palter@192.42.249.134] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:25 256M 20:13:35 -!- bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-ayotwhobnavhhvpl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:13:39 I'm running other memory hungry services as well 20:13:44 I should have shut them down 20:14:14 Xach: I am! 20:14:20 dysinger [~dysinger@conference/railsconf/x-unxfqnsvvunoewot] has joined #lisp 20:14:31 256 megs is the new 16K 20:14:50 Its the common entry level VPS 20:14:52 you're probably getting a swap storm. 20:14:54 It's 20:15:10 compile the system on a machine with more ram? 20:15:26 drewc: releases.txt and sources.txt are also versioned, and no .tgz file is ever deleted, so another concept is being able to always go back to a particular set of projects that work for you. 20:15:32 I've sent it to the background, now I'll just stop the other processes 20:15:45 Fade: That would probably be more advisable 20:15:51 bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-rwpfazxzifthafkb] has joined #lisp 20:16:26 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 20:16:28 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:39 *drewc* notes the tech co-op's as of yet un-announced new VPS price is $5 per 128m RAM , which means $20 gets you more RAM than SBCL has heap! 20:16:52 if you actually get signifigant swap pressure, the system load will skyrocket in I/O 20:17:02 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:17:10 sorry in case I've only missed it in the scrollback, but do you only re-package existing tarballs, or do you download using other methods from upstream, and then turn the result into tarballs? 20:17:14 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has left #lisp 20:17:15 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has left #lisp 20:17:27 -!- bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-rwpfazxzifthafkb] has quit [Changing host] 20:17:27 bgs000 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 -!- bgs000 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Changing host] 20:17:27 bgs000 [57o9@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-rwpfazxzifthafkb] has joined #lisp 20:17:29 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 20:17:41 lichtblau: a mix. 20:17:56 Xach: that's brilliant. 20:20:05 billitch [~billitch@g225098030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:02 Oh kswapd0 has indeed been taking a considerable junk of CPU time 20:21:49 there we go, things are moving again 20:24:11 http://src.quicklisp.org/sources.txt has some source info 20:25:14 pnq_ [asdf@AC823B53.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:32 -!- pnq [asdf@ACA4A80B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:26:18 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:27:19 this is one piece of the thing I'm trying to put together; the other is bootstrapping into automatically downloading everything you need for a given project. i have that working from a single ~30KB file that works in sbcl, ecl, lispworks (all platforms), allegrocl, clisp, and abcl. but the UI is still pretty rough, it's more of a proof-of-concept than something i'd actually want to use. 20:27:19 -!- seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:53 even without that bit, i think the project archive is useful. 20:28:35 Xach: heh, sounds like exactly the project me and nyef false-started not so long ago... which we had decided, after long converstations, was the only right way to do it. 20:28:57 Xach: so, i'm behind you 100%. What can i do to help? 20:29:21 -!- pnq_ [asdf@AC823B53.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 20:29:54 drewc: There are hard things I'd like to do (or see done). For example, a buildbot or buildbot-style status report of what builds on what platforms, what doesn't, and why. 20:29:59 seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #lisp 20:30:17 tracking down useful and interesting software I forgot or don't know about 20:30:31 *Xach* has to go get the boys, laters 20:31:49 i'd be willing to throw some infrastructure at such an effort. 20:33:41 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d819ddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:14 I can do some amount of testing on PPC/Linux/SBCL. 20:35:45 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-137-42.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:11 i have a lot of mips and sparc gear 20:36:31 I _think_ I have a G5 tower somewhere at the office. 20:36:34 Fade: Any of it running SBCL? 20:36:57 I believe I have an SGI O2 running irix and a pre v1 sbcl 20:37:00 Yeah, about the only thing currently annoying me about my G5 is the lack of working hibernate. 20:37:15 Hrm. 20:37:31 i haven't used the machine for a long time, but it used to be my main workstation. 20:38:10 -!- marienz is now known as uber_mort 20:38:30 -!- uber_mort is now known as marienz 20:38:31 an R10k cpu 20:39:06 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 20:39:20 SBCL on non-x86oids gets very little love, and while I don't want to break anything that people are using, I don't know that I can really be that careful about things. 20:39:57 oh, well, I have enough of the crap that I could nail up a host at my facility dedicated to sbcl hackery. 20:40:33 Though, I'll admit, the actually -interesting- target, as far as I'm concerned, is alpha, due to its memory model. 20:40:35 I think we just got a palette of sun gear with niagara cpus in it. 20:40:46 Isn't alpha dead yet? 20:40:52 oh god. I agree, but I don't want to think about alpha. 20:41:00 it brings on mourning pangs. 20:41:35 that said, I've been looking for a wildfire system. ;) 20:42:19 -!- seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:09 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 20:43:20 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 20:43:32 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:44:21 All the world seems to be x86 or arm, these days. 20:44:32 mips is still loose and viable. 20:44:47 and there's a gravity well worth of useful sparc gear. 20:44:50 There's still embedded PPC... 20:45:04 seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #lisp 20:45:10 niagara is an interesting target, especially for parallel stuff. 20:46:36 On a slightly different topic, I'm thinking that valid_lisp_pointer_p() should be implemented for cheneygc, and not just gencgc, thus moving the entire concept out of the core and into the runtime. 20:46:57 Partly in case someone wants to write a replacement GC, it's one less thing that needs rewriting in lisp. 20:47:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:47:38 there's a ton of MIPS, mostly embedded, then there's PPC which is very popular in high-end embedded stuff (i.e. the kind where it matters that its ruggedized, not that it's small - telecoms etc) as well as PPC big iron (there's a lot of SPARCs there as well, though Oracle seems determined to destroy the platform...) 20:48:23 since sun opened up the design of all of their processors, I can't see sparc going away any time soon. 20:48:35 Fade: they only opened T1 and T2 20:48:37 i'm actually surprised godson was built on mips instead of sparc. 20:48:39 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:59 oh.. I thought they made a final release.. 20:49:01 There's also LEON which is a separate design. SPARC64 cores are owned by Fujitsu 20:49:05 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:50:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:50:28 italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-192-236.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:08 anyone know the syntax for clsql when selecting from a (postgres) function? 20:51:27 at any rate, I'd love to see sbcl on ppc, mips, and arm get to parity with x86. 20:51:42 i'd be willing to host a buildfarm. 20:52:27 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-108-118.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:29 PPC/linux needs backtrace work, dynamic-extent work, and ROOM fixing. 20:52:39 *rtoym* wishes he still had a mac ppc box. 20:52:55 drewc: Are the prices here up to date -> http://tech.coop/Virtual%20Private%20Server 20:53:22 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:25 I have linux/ppc gear, but only my powerbook at the moment. If I can resurrect that G5, I could make it available. 20:53:35 rtoym: I'd consider helping out by doing build and test, but the thought of compiling CMUCL scares me. 20:54:36 nyef: It's not nearly as frightening as every says. Especially since not much has happened to require hairy builds. 20:54:44 Er, s/every/everyone/ 20:54:58 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:24 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-137-144.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:28 i didn't know cmucl was still being developed. 20:55:36 But, really, mac ppc is pretty much dead. 20:56:07 oh, I think I have a dissused Power4 machine running AIX. 20:56:21 Fade: Yes, it's not dead, it just smells that way. 20:56:43 does cmucl do things that sbcl does not? 20:58:04 Fade: More bugs! :-; There are a few things. double-double floats, sealed classes/methods, green threads. Localization support. 20:58:16 Breakpoints! 20:58:28 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:47 breakpoints, eh? :) 20:58:55 Oh, yeah, and working trace :encapsulate nil on all platforms. (Soon to be remedied on sbcl, I think.) 20:59:36 Oh, possibly not. It's not like anyone actually knows that it's still broken on non-x86oid, non-ppc targets. 21:00:03 well, I noticed, but it didn't matter (much) at the point where I did. 21:00:14 (I certainly don't know, as the changes to make the PPC version go might have fixed the others.) 21:00:44 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:01:01 what's the status of threading on PPC? 21:01:06 I can't live without a working trace :encapsulate nil. 21:01:16 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:43 I'd quite like working generic function tracing 21:01:53 mmmm 21:01:57 Heh. 21:02:10 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d819ddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:27 hilariously broken 21:02:30 I'll consider improving actual -functionality- after the great debugger source reorganization. 21:02:51 And, speaking of, I've got a possible angle for making that version number thing happen with git. 21:02:57 hey 21:03:18 any idea how I can pass arguments on functions I call with (sb-thread:make-thread) ? 21:03:23 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:03:30 wakeup: Use a lambda. 21:03:39 ah right 21:03:51 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 21:03:53 lisp really requires me to think around the corner^^ 21:04:43 How is generic function tracing hilariously broken? 21:05:15 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@users.v-lo.krakow.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:03 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-9-177.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:07:21 tracing gfs particularly with :encapsulate nil traces the actual function object, which can be shared (as a closure) between many generic functions 21:07:28 Speaking of... Does (defun buu () (multiple-value-prog1 (values nil nil) (catch 'bar (return-from buu (eval '(throw 'bar 1)))))) (buu) return garbage on cmucl? 21:07:47 adding methods to a traced gf can change the function of a gf without changing the gf's identity 21:08:10 doing things in the wrong order can then lead to utter confusion 21:08:16 in fact my head hurts 21:08:29 rtoym: we have sealed structure classes ;) 21:08:44 Mmm... Perhaps encapsulate nil is entirely the wrong thing to use for generic functions, then? 21:09:21 (As it -does- in fact patch the code in the function to cause a trap.) 21:11:58 Krystof: yeah, I don't see how that could work given our implementation of GFs. 21:15:26 Fade: if there was any bigger interest, I could help in acquiring an IA-64 machine if someone was interested in porting... 21:16:55 Going back a bit, threads on SBCL/PPC are not yet implemented at all, AFAIK, but getting gencgc usable on PPC was a major prerequisite. 21:17:52 Call it a wizard-week or two to get the basics going, and then longer to get it properly cleaned up and settled in. 21:17:54 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229178218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:18:16 what does it mean if (sb-bsd-sockets:receive s nil 1) does not return? 21:18:23 nothing sent right? 21:18:29 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:46 Might mean you forgot to set O_NONBLOCK. 21:19:05 sound spromising 21:20:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:21 Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 21:20:39 Fade: As for wildfire, I could try to ask at my old workplace, but transport costs would be enormous 21:20:58 nyef: how do I do that? 21:21:30 sockets are bidirectional right? 21:21:34 I don't remember, as I haven't used sockets directly in ages. 21:21:47 would throw errors I guess 21:21:51 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d819ddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:15 Anyway, O_NONBLOCK is for making sure that things return even if there's no data. 21:23:40 dullard [~user@93-96-113-8.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:25:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:25:25 I don't care as much about working on semi-esoteric platforms as much as giving authors feedback about gratuitous and easy-to-fix incompatibility. 21:26:10 Like assuming integer arrays are always initialized to all zeroes (not specified, and they aren't on lispworks), or using sb-ext:octets-to-string when also having babel or flexi-streams as a dependency, etc. 21:26:29 p_l: they have wildfire systems they aren't using still? that's astonishing. 21:26:37 most of the people who have them don't like to let them go. 21:27:46 at any rate, I own a couple of datacenters, so if there's interest for an sbcl buildfarm, I'd be willing to donate bandwidth and electricity, plus some of the hardware I have already. 21:27:55 Xach: if ccl gives you any heartburn that I could possibly cure, please let me know. 21:28:32 ccl, too, for that matter, as it's my secondary CL implementation. 21:30:01 -!- Aszarsha [~foo@88-121-118-251.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:30:29 -!- peddie_ is now known as peddie 21:30:46 rme: sure, will do. 21:30:50 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:00 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:02 Xach: That is, if ccl is one of the implementations you're interested in supporting. I don't mean to be presumptuous. 21:34:22 rme: definitely it is 21:37:34 Fade: they made a switch a year or two ago to POWER6 for the function that this wildfire was doing... they might have moved it for a different task, but it was running an unsupported OS (Tru64) 21:37:46 rme: especially on windows 21:38:08 (there were two EV6x machines - an ES40 and GS160 - and a GS1280) 21:38:08 nyef: If you compile buu, then yes, random garbage and an error. If you don't then nil, nil is returned. This is a known bug, I think. 21:38:23 Yeah, MISC.232 / Nonlinear-LVARs. 21:38:25 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:44 p_l: *nod* 21:38:56 It seems to be three of the high-priority bugs in SBCL's tracker. 21:38:59 rtoym: is the CMUCL l10n support anything more than just the ability to have CMUCL messages printed in other languages than English (which IMHO is a very annoying kind of localisation to have, and I say it as a non-English native speaker) 21:39:21 also, why do you need trace :encapsulate nil so badly? 21:39:25 Fade: they replaced them with a p565 and p595 (and possibly more, but those two I worked personally with) 21:39:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-122.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:39:39 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39:39 that IBM power gear is pretty nice. 21:39:48 I don't think it's as nice as the wildfire class stuff, though. 21:39:50 davazp [~user@83.55.178.113] has joined #lisp 21:39:53 -!- silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:24 mathrick: Yes, that's all it can do now. 21:40:38 Fade: quite nice but I heard complaints about its SMP configuration in contrast to the hypercube of EV7 and K8/K10 21:40:51 yeah, well, you would. :) 21:41:08 mathrick: trace :encapsulate nil traces recursive functions. Without it you get just the first call. 21:41:35 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:42:28 the p565 I helped install used two external ring buses to connect its nodes, dunno about internal connections between the two cpu modules in each node. the second ring bus costs you the secondary I/O bay iirc. 21:43:38 Fade: btw, 5 years ago I had seen a T3E for sale (with modest price) xD 21:43:51 :) 21:44:22 I have a small alpha that could probably be coaxed into life. 21:44:29 a little 21064 21:44:48 ~256 processors (EV56, I think), 2T of storage and 50 gallons of blood to cool it... :D 21:45:06 that's quite the node. 21:45:08 *p_l* has a 21064A but has preciously little memory) 21:45:20 yeah, I think my multia has only 512M 21:45:36 Fade: I have 32M :P 21:45:55 I have no fast scsi2 disks, though. 21:46:02 and nearly no-one had seen a 1G config for it 21:46:05 I guess I could mount the root partition on nfs. 21:46:41 although that way leads to heap exhaustion. 21:46:53 rvirding [~chatzilla@h29n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:06 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:47:19 I think I have few disks like that, but two of them are in my current alpha 21:47:53 rtoym: ah, right. I can see how that can be useful, having needed it recently :) 21:49:52 Many thanks to Helmut Eller for fixing it so that it works for all functions. It used to be some functions had to have encapsulation for tracing. 21:50:37 The thing about some of the old machines is that they're loud. I had an SGI Indigo 2 for about a week before I got rid of it (it was not only loud, but hot!). I had an AlphaStation XP900 at work for a while, and while it was not quite as bad as the Indigo 2, I ended up giving it away as well. 21:51:21 rme: the newer sgi gear isn't so bad, but my Octane2 does have a very distinctive whine. :) 21:52:03 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:05 btw fwiw there seem to be two symbolics on sale on ebay right now 21:52:12 all the nostalgia talk made me check :D 21:52:32 (i dont have anything to do with the listings) 21:52:55 Speaking of... Does (defun buu () (multiple-value-prog1 (values nil nil) (catch 'bar (return-from buu (eval '(throw 'bar 1)))))) (buu) return garbage on cmucl? <-- it faults here on SBCL 21:53:00 ie. unhandled memory fault 21:53:01 rme: I've been around Pentium 4 machines. RISCs don't bother me :D 21:54:27 mathrick: Not entirely surprising, it returns garbage. 21:55:01 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:14 ska` [~user@124.157.196.127] has joined #lisp 21:56:33 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:36 nyef: I'm not exactly sure what the result should be 21:56:52 but I think (nil nil) 21:57:02 nyef: Oh, that fails on sbcl too? 21:59:01 mathrick: Yeah, that's what the result should be. 21:59:27 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 rtoym: Yeah, the basic problem is that there's one LVAR that needs to be live over the entire body of a block that assigns to it. 22:01:26 p_l: what's wildfire, and where the hell did you work to have such equipment? 22:02:59 ans [~user@84.41.90.123] has joined #lisp 22:03:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:47 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:06:11 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B201FAC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:28 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-9-177.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:37 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:09:58 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:10:42 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:11:16 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:11:54 mathrick: Wildfire was an Alpha chipset,iirc it refers to the EV7 systems (so the chipsets only do I/O + routing) 22:11:59 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@static.77.8.networkiowa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:12:18 And the place was Polska Telefonia Cyfrowa 22:12:24 this works: (clsql:sql 'select [lower "test"]), this doesnt: (clsql:sql 'select [myfun "test"]), any ideas? 22:12:58 p_l: ahh, that makes sense to have crazy gear 22:13:26 italic: is myfun a function you defined on your sql system? 22:13:30 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:32 mathrick: it was also the place where I learned not to trust Oracle 22:13:33 Xach: yes 22:13:58 italic: i don't have any ideas, then, sorry. 22:14:23 I just sit idle and google stuff when I look at this room, makes me learn stuff -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaServer#Wildfire_Family 22:14:35 I didn't know what it was either 22:15:05 1: "SELECT * FROM LOWER('bob')" 2: "SELECT MYFUN \"test\"" 22:19:50 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:06 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:24:46 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has 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[~Egoz@114.79.55.54] has joined #lisp 23:40:13 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.196.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:20 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-134-185.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:42:37 -!- koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:43:23 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:43:34 *Xach* feels the excitement rumbling and bumbling 23:46:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:46:28 mathrick: btw, I wouldn't mind going back to such workplace. Datacenters are soothing in a way... 23:50:33 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 23:56:19 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:57:13 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #lisp 23:57:25 Intensity [lO65s0cHWg@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp