00:01:12 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:34 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:01:55 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:27 pnq [asdf@ACA33A31.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:36 nyef: Does many of the devs really have access to those archs? 00:03:35 -!- Wombatzu` [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Quit: vacation] 00:04:17 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:04:28 Paraselene_ [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:43 -!- Paraselene [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:06:25 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:06:57 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:17 -!- uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:16:34 Guthur: Probably not, which I'll admit makes it hard to give a damn. 00:16:49 ...would the usage of an emulator be an acceptable substitute? 00:17:09 Tried that once already, never again. 00:17:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:17:24 hehe, yeah I can understand that. 00:17:34 I've been there a little myself. 00:18:00 Getting access to the GCC compile farm would let me hit sparc and mips, which would give me substantial coverage, but... 00:19:14 (It'd also let me hit HPPA, but screw that.) 00:19:31 HPPA? 00:19:51 The HP PA-RISC systems. 00:20:40 Do you know what would be far more worthwhile that any of those... 00:20:47 ARM, hehe 00:21:53 Sure, and I have an ARM. But it's not a question of worthwhile targets, it's a question of what parts of SBCL are truly maintained. 00:22:34 Ya I suppose, I kind of lost sight of the initial thread. 00:23:21 According to wiki PA-RISC is only going to be supported until 2013 anyway 00:23:38 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 00:24:06 yea, ARM would be a nice supportable target, as soon as someone actually does the port. :P 00:24:08 Oh that's the servers support 00:24:14 As near as I can tell, the maintained targets are x86/linux, x86-64/linux, ppc/linux, and some half-hearted gestures towards x86oid/darwin. 00:24:55 I'm a little surprised darwin doesn't get a little more love 00:25:01 Admittedly, many of the maintainers have lives, but... 00:25:12 I thought there was a decent number of users there 00:25:17 darwin is actually a bit of a pain. 00:25:29 Darwin is just such a pile of crap, it's really hard to get yourself to care about it 00:25:41 But, yeah, I'm also a bit surprised about the lack of darwin love. 00:26:37 Well, it does get a fair amount 00:26:38 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:26:53 foom: Tell that to TRACE :ENCAPSULATE NIL. 00:26:55 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:27:04 i mean, it's not like the sum total of sbcl love is that high. 00:27:54 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:28:05 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:38 Is there something that can/should be done about that, though? 00:28:47 The bar is quite high for SBCL hacking though. 00:29:09 forbid everyone from having a life outside SBCL hacking? :) 00:29:27 Actually, where -is- the bar for SBCL hacking? 00:29:43 understanding how the darn thing works 00:29:58 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:30:28 Okay, but some parts are easier to understand than others. 00:31:08 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:11 *p_l* has access to MIPS, Alpha and ARM, but the Alpha is problematic 00:31:26 So, hey, let's say I want to fix bug 586105. 00:31:29 the MIPS is less problematic because I've got an usable emulator... 00:32:01 I go "WTF, no idea what's going on" 00:32:10 And that's about that. :) 00:32:17 emulating Alpha... give me an opteron or i7 and we might talk 00:32:56 Right, the compiler is quite a bit of black magic. 00:32:58 (though I suspect "a windows XP VM" would fit for Personal Alpha) 00:33:04 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:31 The compiler is almost the only part of SBCL that actually needs work. :) 00:33:56 well, the GC too. 00:34:05 Tell that to the problems with the debugger, the platform support (particularly windows), etc. 00:34:29 Is there more than threads wrong on windows? 00:34:32 Like this? "Hello Mr Debugger, you don't need work." 00:34:37 Guthur: Oh, yeah. 00:34:38 <_3b> i could report some of my 'not worth reporting' bugs if you want easier stuff to fix :p (at least i think some of them looked easier) 00:35:22 Heh. I'm not actually looking for bugs to fix, I'm looking for fixes to bugs that bug me. 00:35:32 The debugger doesn't need work? What? I can point to two debugger features which I know to be broken on all non-x86oid platforms. 00:35:32 There was pprint-logical-block bug to 00:37:56 okay, maybe Mr Debugger shouldn't listen to me then. :) 00:38:02 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.83.231] has joined #lisp 00:39:16 Part of my point, though, is that the non-x86 targets get almost no attention. 00:40:19 Though I guess that if a couple of the heavy hitters really attacked the known compiler problems the other stuff might start becoming more obvious. 00:40:48 non-x86 targets also have almost no users. 00:41:21 That's also true. 00:41:23 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:41:26 I mean, in general, x86, PPC, ARM are the only targets that people use these days. 00:41:42 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 00:41:45 Good morning! 00:41:48 there's certainly hardware out there for the other stuff, but it's in quite a minority. 00:42:07 And SBCL on PPC can't have been keeping any users before a couple months ago, given what I fixed on it. 00:42:20 Hello plage. 00:42:42 PPC is still widely used? 00:43:15 fsmunoz: SBCL/PPC spawned an OpenBSD port recently, and there was that report about someone running it on a BlueGene/P. 00:43:35 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:42 nyef: I can see some use for a threaded SBCL/sparc on both Linux and Solaris... 00:43:55 nyef: interesting 00:44:28 hmmm... SBCL/plan9/ppc64 :3 00:44:41 Is the "jump" to POWER processors very high? 00:44:57 good nights 00:45:03 fsmunoz: you mean in the difference between instruction sets? 00:45:08 fsmunoz: or price? 00:45:16 p_l: instruction sets 00:45:57 fsmunoz: afaik anything newer than PPC970 that isn't an embedded chip should be fully compatible with both ppc64 and power 00:45:59 Far be it from me to say what others should be working on, but it really seems to me that the most bang/buck is making sbcl/x86*/linux and sbcl/x86*/windows better; the other archs really aren't worth much more than a checkbox "yep we've got it". :P 00:46:12 p_l: right, thanks. 00:46:59 So theoretical it would run on Linux on POWER7... I might ngive that a try 00:47:12 (or POWER6) 00:47:26 foom: till you get an answer "we would like to buy your softrware but it doesn't run on our infrastructure - your competitor uses Java so we can drop-in" ;-) 00:49:34 java only supports linux x86, linux x86-64, solaris sparc, solaris x86, solaris x86-64, windows x86, and windows x86-64 00:49:38 I sometimes wonder what's going to happen to the ppc port of ccl. Perhaps the linuxppc will live on while darwinppc bit rots as our ppc Apple hardware dies off. 00:50:00 (at least from Sun) 00:50:04 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:50:07 foom: you forgot PPC/PPC64/POWER, Alpha (rather old one) 00:50:11 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:36 PPC Java runs strong 00:51:00 there's also a JavaMachine,sort of 00:51:23 Sun Java doesn't appear to be available for that 00:51:29 foom: plus AIX and Linux on POWER 00:51:48 And i/OS 00:52:01 you keep saying these things, but they're not here: http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp 00:52:08 (although here I'm not sure if it is former-Sun JDK or the IBM one) 00:52:25 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:26 foom: I was refering to a JRE, not specifically the former-Sun one. 00:53:48 sure, and Common Lisp implementations run on all sorts of stuff, just maybe not SBCL. :) 00:53:56 hehe 00:54:26 anyhow...gotta go. 00:54:37 foom: the IBM JDK and the Sun one are however pretty interchangeable... I never heard of issues with changing them, and several application servers allowed for choosing one or the other. 00:54:40 later 00:54:52 But you are right, they are different implementations. 00:55:10 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 00:56:23 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BB7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:56:31 foom: IBM JDK is still alive and kicking 00:56:50 there are even applications that might explicitly require it (DB2, for example) 00:57:14 p_l: almost everything nowadays 00:57:31 Eclipse is the basis of pretty much everything (for good or worse) 00:57:46 iirc IBM's works on PPC/PPC64/POWER, AS/400, x86 (dunno about amd64) 00:58:18 All the Rational portfolio is based on it, Lotus Notes idem, Symphony, Websphere, most installation wizards for DB2 etc are in java 00:58:35 p_l: AS/400 isn't a different HW arch any longer though 00:58:45 fsmunoz: the binaries for it are a different arch 00:59:23 fsmunoz: only some minimal core set is actually native code on it. I haven't seen 128bit ppc so it isn't it :P 00:59:24 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.151] has joined #lisp 00:59:31 p_l: yes, because the OS is different, but the hw as converged, it's all Power that runs AIX, Linux and i in different LPARs 00:59:39 (AS/400 has 128bit pointers) 00:59:41 s/as/has/ 01:00:22 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:00:35 Yes, that was something from System/38 IIRC 01:00:46 fsmunoz: yes, but the applications on iOS are architecture-agnostic to both OS and applications it doesn't matter if you run them on original CISC cpus or POWER 01:00:57 -!- wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:01:44 Yes, exactly 01:02:44 You are correct, it matters little what the underlying hw is in the case of i/OS because of TIMI 01:03:04 Actually, TIMI is the target, not the CPU itself 01:03:13 Timi!!!! 01:09:17 nyef: There's the option of completely rewriting the compiler... 01:10:39 pkhuong: I was thinking maybe of doing something like I did with my radical-refactoring/genesis branch, actually. 01:10:51 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 01:12:01 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 01:12:15 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:19 ... Oh dear. 01:13:31 nyef: I think the main issue with the compiler is that nobody really owns IR1 01:13:34 Are LVARs supposed to be write-once, or single-assignment? 01:13:50 Err... 01:13:56 I mean, only assigned to from one place? 01:14:48 there can be multiple setters (when lvar-uses is a list). 01:14:58 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.134.184.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:14:58 Hrm... 01:20:46 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:23:24 Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 01:27:50 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.134.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:42 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has left #lisp 01:28:49 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:17 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 01:29:40 Hrm... I'd almost think that it's CATCH that's the problem... 01:29:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:59 nyef: where is the greatest and best clx? 01:32:20 AFAIK, my repository, glx-fixes branch, but if you don't need GLX you'll find that the asdf-installable version is sufficient. 01:32:37 (Nothing has changed on the main branch since that release.) 01:35:17 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:36:47 sweet. 01:37:36 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:37 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:39:31 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:39:58 nyef: Does CLX do input? 01:40:32 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:40:33 Guthur: Do you mean XIM? 01:41:00 I'm only really somewhat familiar with xlib 01:41:14 So I was wondering if it offers near the same 01:41:41 With input events 01:41:42 Yes. CLX and libX11 are roughly equivalent. 01:42:27 It does the older-style input stuff, not the newer XKB / XInput stuff. 01:42:48 So if you want your fancy keymaps or your pressure-sensitive tablet, you're out of luck. 01:43:34 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:44:02 Zhivago, Do you maintain it as well? 01:45:07 No, but I used it some years ago. 01:45:15 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:46:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:46:53 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:18 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:55:02 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:27 aw|rerun [~aw@p5DDAB267.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:41 -!- aw 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has joined #lisp 04:27:15 slyrus___: Hey, haven't seen you for a while. What's up? 04:28:02 -!- uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:28:30 in chicago for a conference. minimal hacking time these days, although I did manage to get myself distracted from what I really wanted to hack on by removing the dlshim from the darwin builds. what's up with you? 04:29:32 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 04:30:55 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 04:31:08 I am in Ho Chi Minh city to give a course. 04:31:29 sounds nice. how is it over there? 04:32:05 I bit too hot. Everyone is waiting for the rainy season to start so that things will cool off a bit. Otherwise, good as usual. 04:32:22 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:39 "34°C feels like 41.9°C" 04:33:26 11 °C, i want more! 04:33:59 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0043-78-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:40:53 *p_l* wants scotland to move several degrees south, nights are supposed to be dark 04:45:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:46:20 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:00 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.151] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:48:32 Nah, not in the summer. 04:48:34 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@1503024517.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 04:50:37 plage: I somehow didn't notice last year that northern scotland is apparently close enough to north pole to get quite bright nights in summer -_-; 04:52:19 p_l: How far north is it? I lived for a few years at 60°. 04:53:12 And frodef used to live in Tromsų. 04:54:13 57°99.36N, 2°636W 04:54:31 *p_l* knows another guy from Tromso 04:55:19 that's north enough, so you should stop wondering 04:55:26 stassats: thanks 04:55:37 I've been running spare for last few days 04:55:57 *p_l* left curtains open... 04:56:08 *stassats* is at 60° 04:57:13 I somehow didn't notice this last year, and I was stupefied by it 05:08:17 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 05:10:00 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:22 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-82-170.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: G'bye] 05:14:08 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:21 pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has joined #lisp 05:20:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vhreruzerwbyddtc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:13 -!- pizzledizzle 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[~asarch@187.132.137.165] has joined #lisp 10:48:59 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-134-113.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:20 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 10:55:57 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:59:03 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 11:00:25 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 11:00:42 Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 11:01:14 peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-38-150-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:16 -!- peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-38-150-228.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01:44 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.129.207] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 11:03:41 Good evening! 11:04:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:52 pocket_ [~pocket_@p1128-ipbf1408hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:08:03 Hello 11:10:05 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:51 How to rotate surface with specified center point (with lispbuilder-sdl)? 11:11:19 is sbcl's compiler using sb-walker? 11:11:37 chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 11:11:55 because it seems to be rather like an approximation, or at least using sb-cltl2::macroexpand-all suggests that 11:11:57 p_l: dude. couldn't you just patch ECL to support disabling of IO? 11:12:07 then all you need is a timeout custodian and rlimits 11:12:33 *attila_lendvai* records a bug in launchpad 11:12:40 ECL's a complete lisp implementation right? 11:13:06 i'm saying ECL because i recall its source is quite accessible and its quite simpleg 11:15:18 hi lisp 11:15:38 chrisdone: Depends on what 'complete' means, of course. 11:16:10 Odin-: complete enough to run common libraries 11:17:15 I believe it is, yes. 11:18:32 But nevertheless, one of those implementations you shouldn't assume it'll work. :p 11:19:22 ~_~ The Lisp Factor 11:22:27 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:23:39 hello holycow 11:23:55 bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 11:24:12 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0043-78-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:24 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:25:28 skirsdeda [skirsdeda@lan-78-157-72-57.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 11:25:45 hey everyone 11:25:57 is there any way to run mcl ift based code 11:26:01 on windows or linux 11:26:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:26:15 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:14 what is ift? 11:27:19 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:26 I am totally new to lisp anyway 11:27:28 it's some 11:27:31 interface tools 11:27:32 library 11:27:34 it seems 11:27:37 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:27:38 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-216.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:26 any mcl experts around here? :) 11:32:50 skirsdeda: I think if anyone knew the answer to your question, they would give it to you. 11:44:25 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:15 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-6-14.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [] 11:48:29 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.129.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:06 WePac [~bubble@p54AA78D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:33 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-136-216.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:54:12 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-197.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:08 -!- thorne [~user@67.42.142.120] has 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[~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:20:51 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:43 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:22:17 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:23:10 daniel_ [~patata@81.32.84.180] has joined #lisp 12:24:17 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:25:40 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-138-154.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:50 G'morning all. 12:26:06 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:10 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:28:47 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:56 'morning nyef 12:31:06 Start work on the new compiler yet, hehe 12:31:13 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:31:28 -!- daniel_ [~patata@81.32.84.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:34:28 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ckkpkvequyxkuwmk] has left #lisp 12:35:52 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:56 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:36:05 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 12:38:08 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-82-170.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:39 hullo 12:40:52 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 -!- aw|rerun is now known as aw 12:50:26 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-94-203.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:45 Not doing a new compiler, trying to make heads or tails of the current one. 12:51:01 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:51:30 Really, if I can't figure this one out, how would I know to be able to make a better one? 12:51:54 Murdox [~uhhh@host86-183-25-99.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:35 Sometimes software that grows organically can become unfathomably even to the best engineer. 12:53:17 Maybe if it was thoroughly documented it might be ok 12:53:20 Is it? 12:54:02 It's sparsely documented. 12:55:15 Even large corporations have to throw out old unmaintainable code from time to time. 12:55:29 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 12:55:51 But maybe SBCL compiler isn't in that bad a state, I've never looked at it. 12:56:02 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:56:18 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host86-183-25-99.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has quit [K-Lined] 12:56:20 Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-179-104-236.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:21 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 12:56:26 lichtblau [~user@pD95409D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:46 I think that what it desperately needs is refactoring. 12:57:36 -!- Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-179-104-236.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [K-Lined] 12:57:42 refactoring ? 12:58:35 sepult: Do you mean ? for the term or the fact that SBCL needs it 12:59:06 For that matter, SBCL-as-a-whole needs refactoring. 13:00:18 I think I might agree there, when I looked at the pprint-logical-block macro, it felt a little yucky 13:00:26 But maybe it has to be like that 13:01:10 I'm thinking even coarser than that. Break up src/code/ into multiple directories, one for filesystem/streams stuff, one for the debugger, etc. 13:01:18 ska` [~user@124.157.133.189] has joined #lisp 13:02:48 That would be helpful for newbies like me to get a better picture of the various components. 13:03:09 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:13 Hell, I've got a tree with genesis in a subdirectory of src/cold/. 13:03:29 As separate files. 13:04:35 And there's so much -noise- in things like the stack analysis part of the compiler. 13:05:36 Is there no impetus among the community of developers to perform a reorganisation like that? 13:06:37 Seems like each IR1 object has a slot for a corresponding IR2 object, but any function that needs to work with both has to grab both, there's no convenient function to just access an IR2-related slot given the IR1-object. 13:06:58 Right now there's very little impetus for -anything-. 13:07:39 But you may be right, I should suggest the idea on sbcl-devel at some point. 13:08:04 Maintenance of this nature lacks the 'glam' factor as well. 13:08:27 Probably effects the motivation 13:08:52 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.133.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:23 Though I'm sure there is some meaty stuff that could be done, someone mentioned GC last night 13:09:55 GC is... risky to mess with, in a sense. 13:10:15 Is it not easy to slot in a new one? 13:11:07 I'll admit, bar enjoying the benefits of GC I know very little about them 13:11:26 There are a few places distributed throughout the system that depend in various ways on the effects of the current GC strategies. 13:12:11 It's not impossible to do, as the move from cheneygc to gencgc on ppc showed. 13:13:27 Is there good, freely available, GC strategies that could be used, or is it a software patent minefield. 13:13:56 It's more likely to be a Hard Problem minefield. 13:14:10 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 Ah, ok, I was thinking that maybe all the obvious solutions might owned by someone. 13:14:54 They might be, for all I know. 13:17:45 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-96-233-72-164.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 13:20:10 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:06 there are plenty of published papers on interesting GC approaches that are probably not too patented 13:22:21 some of them are probably linked from http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Papers if that still exists 13:23:17 Some recent ones as well 13:23:56 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0043-78-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 13:24:05 Krystof: What do you think about the idea of splitting up src/code/ into multiple directories and breaking down some of the files into smaller pieces? 13:26:11 slyrus___ [~slyrus@206.173.140.9.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:06 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:31 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755625.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:48 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:13 nyef: well, GC is fairly well-delineated, so a complete rewrite isn't pure madness. 13:38:12 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:24 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has left #lisp 13:42:25 davazp [~user@83.55.178.113] has joined #lisp 13:42:39 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.137.165] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:11 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 13:48:51 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.249.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:50:55 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.250.72] has joined #lisp 13:54:52 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-55-139.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:08:10 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:11 -!- slyrus___ [~slyrus@206.173.140.9.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:11:45 AussieSteve [~chatzilla@dsl-220-253-76-236.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:12:23 nyef: I can see the former, but not quite so sure about the latter as a general principle (though it may make sense in certain cases) 14:12:38 it might be worth blessing a modern vcs before doing that kind of stuff 14:17:42 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 14:21:41 -!- kislotnik [~kislotnik@93.180.201.173] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:24:19 Another idea is 1.1 in December, and then annual minor version bumps thereafter. 14:28:14 -!- AussieSteve [~chatzilla@dsl-220-253-76-236.NSW.netspace.net.au] has left #lisp 14:28:59 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:31:15 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:23 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@89.135.200.126] has joined #lisp 14:32:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.200.126] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:32:25 -!- 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[~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:15 just released version 0,2 of my Common lisp roguelike. It's pre-alpha, but testing is appreciated. See comp.lang.lisp for details. 15:42:13 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 15:44:08 ping ... 15:44:32 ... pong. 15:45:06 Congratulations on the new release. 15:45:06 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:29 Meanwhile, looks like it's time for me to disappear for the rest of the day. 15:45:41 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-138-154.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Bye all, gone until probably tomorrow.] 15:49:41 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-166-61.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:51:22 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:23 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:21 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-197.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:15 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-207-225.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 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slyrus___ [~slyrus@206.173.140.9.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:01 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 17:54:01 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:15 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-135-150-153.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:38 astalla [~astalla@net-188-153-5-81.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:59:42 -!- uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:59:44 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-36-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:02:33 do any of the ERC guys hang out here? 18:03:00 Perhaps on #emacs, but a lot of us use erc. 18:03:09 er, i meant ECL 18:03:46 I'm starting to use ECL, for some specific projects. 18:04:39 i'm trying to define a function along side QUIT and EXIT for the REPL and i just cannot figure out how to get the make file to include mine 18:05:08 josemanuel [~josemanue@251.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:05:17 The "make file" ? 18:05:43 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-130-167.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:05:48 well in main.d there are two definitions of in-built REPL functions, @(defun ext::exit (&optional ( ... and same for quit 18:06:06 Do you need to define it in C? 18:06:11 yeah 18:06:44 i need to access the internal environment of ERC 18:06:45 And you did so in a new .d file? 18:06:55 no, in main.d 18:06:59 I would just add new.o to OBJS in Makefile.in 18:07:29 then how do you make the lisp engine aware of it? 18:07:39 In main.d, you won't have to change anything to the Makefiles, but you may have to add the symbol in symbols_list.h 18:07:51 i did that, and to symbols_list2.h 18:08:09 I believe it is automatically generated from symbols_list.h 18:08:32 Yes, check Makefile.in, there's a rule to produce symbols_list2.h 18:08:36 i copied the EXIT function verbatim but with my own 18:08:40 ah ok cool 18:09:18 So, just add the symbol in the system package, in symbols_list.h. 18:10:23 i already did that 18:10:41 do i need to do a make realclean or something? 18:10:50 maden [~maden@dsl-149-190.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 18:11:41 *chrisdone* tries taht 18:11:48 You may try that, but I don't think it's needed. 18:11:51 -!- dls [~chatzilla@dsmythe-host117.dsl.visi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:52 slyrus___ [~slyrus@206.173.140.9.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:24 well the ecl program is picking up (si:exit) just fine but for my function i get 'not found in package' 18:12:30 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 18:12:34 ~_~ 18:12:47 paste a diff? 18:13:24 ok one moment 18:14:09 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-16-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:15:34 pjb``: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111180 18:15:43 hacking new functions into the ECL source seems a strange thing to do.. 18:15:55 (unless you're hacking new ECL features, I guess) 18:16:44 pjb``: hm, ignore 'int sandbox' in external.h 18:17:21 hefner: i'm trying to do a sandboxing feature, which i think requires internal access that normal lisp can't touch 18:17:45 chrisdone: have you tried to call it with (si::sandbox ...)? 18:17:49 hefner: i.e. run the sandbox function and then IO and FFI calls are disallowed 18:17:54 pjb``: yes, and si:sandbox 18:18:08 it's finished building now. i'll try again and paste the output 18:19:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111180#1 18:19:51 there must be some kind of table somewhere that i'm missing 18:21:47 i don't even know if it's possible to safely sandbox ECL. i just thought i'd try file IO as a proof of concept. i'll ask on the mailling list 18:21:54 leadnose_ [leadnose@kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 18:25:42 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:24 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082F1CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:47 chrisdone: well, here it works. 18:28:40 http://paste.lisp.org/+2DSC/2 18:28:48 dls [~chatzilla@dsmythe-host117.dsl.visi.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:15 -!- dls [~chatzilla@dsmythe-host117.dsl.visi.com] has left #lisp 18:30:07 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082D111.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:30:51 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d81428b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:58 what! 18:31:09 Now, I configure my ecl with --enable-rpath. Here are the commands I used: http://paste.lisp.org/+2DSC/3 18:31:32 i'll try it :-) 18:31:39 buildapp gave me this: whats wrong? Fatal END-OF-FILE: 18:31:41 end of file on # 18:31:42 chrisdone: perhaps without rpath it loads the system libecl instead of yours. 18:31:53 pjb``: that's a bloody good point 18:32:09 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:32:44 building... 18:34:40 chrisdone: I think a sandbox needs not necessarily change the internals of the language. CL is flexible enough that you can build your own sandboxed reader, evaluator and compiler on top of the CL ones. 18:34:42 pjb``: instead of having it as a toggle, my plan would be: have it take no arguments, when called enable the sandbox, and subsequent calls are a no-op. so you load up ECL with your libraries that you know are safe, and then lock everything (IO, FFI, sockets, etc etc) down 18:35:24 astalla: i was under the impression it is mostly impossible to properly sandbox lisp within lisp 18:35:34 It's true that it would be nicer to do it only at the CL level. 18:35:37 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:40 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]] 18:35:51 tantan_ [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 18:36:17 chrisdone: You could use my reader.lisp to be able to prevent reading random symbols such as CL::EVAL. 18:36:24 why is it impossible? to build a blacklist of symbols and forbid to use them should be relatively simple. 18:36:42 astalla: you must build a whitelist of symbols! 18:37:13 and trust the compiler to produce 100% safe code 18:37:22 pjb``: isn't it roughly the same? 18:37:36 astalla: not from a security point of view. 18:38:16 In either case, I think doing it at the level of the lisp implementation will be much more work than configuraing a VM. 18:38:23 s/raing/ring/ 18:39:04 pjb``: but since Lisp symbols are not fixed in number, if you keep a whitelist you have to update it with user-defined symbols 18:39:29 so in the end what remains fixed is the set of symbols not in the whitelist, that is, a blacklist 18:40:07 Well, I was thinking of system symbols. Symbols in the user packages will all be allowed (as long as they're short enough to be read). 18:40:25 stipet [~user@c83-253-30-85.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:41:07 ok, I guess the difference you are point out is allow by default vs deny by default 18:41:21 Yes. 18:41:27 and for security denying by default is better 18:41:28 I see 18:42:15 about the VM... doing it at the CL level is certainly much more work 18:42:54 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-17-172.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:42:59 pjb``: can i see your reader.lisp please 18:43:52 http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/lisp&h=2bd7b3ddda2b821a45e1d79cd70a07939e014e17&hb=d07cab304cfb8415d1c47ef26c50a2b3f18a98db&f=common-lisp/reader.lisp 18:45:06 however, there are situations where you cannot easily spawn a VM. I'm thinking about distributed applications, for example. 18:45:22 ikki [~ikki@189.247.2.225] has joined #lisp 18:45:23 Yes, but it's easier to control, from the outside of the VM. 18:45:36 sure 18:48:02 stipet` [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:23 pjb``: could you support EVAL by providing your own? 18:48:33 Yes. 18:48:35 rather than disallowing it 18:48:51 "i reject your eval and substitute my own!" 18:48:59 You could wrap it, and code walk the expression, to filters out unallowed primitives. 18:49:05 right 18:49:07 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:49 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-30-85.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:49:52 you should probably be using your own EVAL for everything 18:51:34 otherwise perhaps I can declare (speed 3) (safety 0) and use a vector with dynamic-extent to scribble over the stack and break out of the sandbox 18:52:01 and then fight alongside your brethren for zion 18:52:06 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:52:18 stipet`` [~user@c83-253-30-85.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 sounds trivial enough to me 18:52:55 hefner: but if everyone's whitelisted, speed 3/safety 0 wouldn't be there, no? 18:53:08 s/yone/ything 18:53:30 benny` [~user@i577A79AF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:01 -!- stipet` [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:54:06 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:54:16 that statement seems content-free 18:54:40 but sure, if you had a perfect sandbox, then you'd have a perfect sandbox 18:54:45 if you don't whitelist speed and safety, it would do, yes. 18:54:48 I'm just making the point that there's more to it than whitelisting symbols 18:57:07 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:21 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:53 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 well i'll suggest it to the lisper interested in doing this for trylisp.org 'cause i said i wouldn't be doing it 18:58:29 So I noticed application startup with cl-launch is pretty slow, could I use a sbcl "server" and just connect to it and execute expressions in a new thread? 18:59:34 ska` [~user@124.157.133.189] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 And for trylist.org, it would definitely be better to give a VM, so that the prospect may try a whole session in a row. 19:01:03 -!- tantan_ [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has left #lisp 19:01:21 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-67.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:30 -!- stipet`` [~user@c83-253-30-85.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:33 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-67.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:02:40 ugh. I should know better to IRC from the worthless macbook. 19:02:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:05 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 19:04:03 pjb``: how do you mean by ``a whole session in a row''? 19:04:19 to let the prospect enter several sexps, one after the other. 19:04:32 You need to keep the lisp session alive for a while. 19:05:03 oh sure. saving the state would be important 19:05:11 It's ok to provide them with a web interface, but it's better to provide them with a telnet interface (like Franz did). 19:05:21 why is that better? 19:05:54 Because one nice thing about lisp is the REPL, and it is meaningful only as an interface to a modifiable state. 19:06:36 what's the difference here? 19:07:09 (defun f (x) (1+ x)) / (f 42) vs. (progn (defun f (x) (1+ x)) (f 42)) 19:08:12 pjb``: sure the former is better, but what difference does it make whether it's web or telnet? they're both interfaces to a server session 19:08:48 chrisdone: telnet is session based, http is stateless. 19:09:04 chrisdone: so you have more work to do to establish a session with http. 19:09:29 However, you may want to allow a user to reconnect later to his session, so that in both cases you will have to manage that too. 19:09:38 hmpf -- hard to be a CL user on windows. (perhaps just hard to be a windows user) 19:09:48 Phoodus [foo@174-17-6-14.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:03 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:04 toast`: I had no big difficulties being a CL user on cygwin. 19:10:06 pjb``: both would require some kind of password or unique ID i imagine 19:10:11 Yes. 19:10:26 my choices are commercial but expensive, or experimental SBCL, or compile it myself -- which i can do, but is hard to teach with 19:10:45 clisp works nicely on MS-Windows too. 19:10:48 pjb -- hehe, which is to say you're not really a windows user. you're a unix user on a windows box 19:11:09 i used CLISP on windows and it worked well 19:11:12 true, but doesn't CLISP force you to GPL your apps? 19:11:13 Well, I could access MS-Windows APIs from cygwin, if I suddently became crazy. 19:11:14 toast`: how so? clisp works. I use ABCL on windows quite successfully too. ASDF supports windows better these days. 19:11:22 chrisdone: It would basically be some kind of "free-shell". 19:11:27 toast`: what do you care if you're teaching with it? 19:11:38 yeah, i just updates to the latest ABCL. startup time tanked since 0.12 19:11:46 it's not 3 seconds on my box 19:11:47 toast`: it happens that it doesn't, as long as you don't use any clisp specific stuff. 19:11:59 chrisdone: looking to teach fellow coworkers 19:12:04 (or if you use clisp specific stuff, as long as you do so thru a portability library). 19:12:07 toast`: tanked? 19:12:11 what's that? 19:12:25 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-194-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:45 chrisdone: i just had some good success with introducing mercurial, but only because the installation, setup, getting started was smooth. "here, compile this" is not smoothe 19:13:01 (no, not celebrating mercurial -- just using as an example) 19:13:09 toast`: how many second was it with 0.12 on your system? 19:13:10 pjb``: but of course the point of it being on the web is that it doesn't take you out of the browsing experience. it's independant of operating system or user capabilities. people have been using tryhaskell on the iphone, for example. i'm going to add graphics (already added simple raphael support) to it. there's much more potential on the web to excite than a boring terminal 19:13:20 ehu: about 500ms 19:13:31 toast`: and now? 19:13:53 wait, 0.08 was that fast... i'm now on 0.12 19:14:00 now it's 3 seconds. 19:14:07 the only thing slower is ironpython 19:14:09 same java version? 19:14:20 oh, hmm, forgot about that 19:14:21 maybe not 19:14:41 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755625.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:51 I'm finding that 1.5 is faster to start up in than 1.6 19:15:00 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d81428b.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 19:15:02 oh, that might have been it 19:15:11 (though maybe not *that* much) 19:15:31 also, assigned memory settings make a difference 19:15:54 if I assign 512 MB, startup takes longer than with lower amounts 19:16:00 gonzojive [~red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:16:16 toast`: though I'd like to get that amount down. 19:16:35 toast`: astalla was working on it. His changes landed on trunk after 0.20. 19:16:47 you could give trunk a spin, to see if it differs 19:17:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-124-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:17:18 (is giving 0.20 a go) 19:17:24 *toast`* brb 19:17:33 toast`: any feedback is much appreciated! 19:17:40 oh, hey, you work on abcl? 19:17:52 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-229.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:04 yes :-) 19:18:10 sweet 19:18:13 I have a .asd file. Before I load the system defined in the file I want to add a path relative to the system to the asdf:*central-registry*. Any idea how to customize an asdf:load-op to execute some code before the system locates its dependencies? 19:18:15 ehu: did they end 19:18:15 love the name btw :) 19:18:18 I do almost all development on it with Windows. 19:18:20 md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 19:18:25 ehu: did they end on trunk? 19:18:28 would really like to tell people "just install the Armed Bear" 19:18:38 the less-reflection branch you mean? 19:18:51 astalla: yup. I thought you decided to merge? 19:19:23 ehu: I didn't merge, I was just considering it :) 19:19:54 ah! :-) ok. well, maybe we should discuss again. 19:21:20 gah, 0.20 takes like 15 sec 19:21:38 Startup completed in 10.609 seconds. 19:21:45 ? 19:22:01 that's nearly impossible. 19:22:02 java -jar abcl-0.20.0\abcl.jar 19:22:44 ok :) 19:22:45 seems strange to me too 19:22:50 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:05 well, come into #abcl and we'll try to figure out what's going on. 19:23:21 well, if it's not _supposed_ to take that long, that's a whole 'nother story. :-) 19:23:35 i gotta go, but i'll be back on later, see you in abcl then 19:23:51 sure. 19:23:54 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 19:24:20 astalla: wonder what's going on there. 19:24:35 climacs:climacs hangs in clisp-2.48+ 19:25:39 ehu: maybe a jdk 1.6 pre-update10? 19:25:53 wasn't that known to be slow? 19:26:08 yup. good ieda. 19:26:10 idea. 19:29:10 Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@79.126.72.104] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 -!- smanek is now known as neoashaman 19:32:34 -!- Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@79.126.72.104] has left #lisp 19:33:40 sepult: hangs doing what? can you interrupt it and get a backtrace? 19:33:59 yep 19:34:58 last error is GC: user break 19:35:47 "~S user break" (EXT:GC) 19:36:31 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:37:34 ESA::RETURN-TO-ESA 19:40:09 for some reason slime indents DEFMETHOD bodies by 8 spaces instead of 2. any ideas why? 19:40:23 I'm probably missing some contrib package or something 19:40:36 pnq [asdf@AC8138C2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.2.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:15 -!- dulouz [~dulouz@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:43:57 it seems many things are unbound yet 19:46:25 ikki [~ikki@189.247.6.135] has joined #lisp 19:47:11 hi 19:47:26 i need to exec commands from CL 19:47:29 i'm on SBCL 19:47:34 what's the better way 19:47:47 (it's for a one-use script, i don't need portability) 19:47:55 sb-ext:run-program. 19:48:17 thanks :) 19:49:42 sepult: sorry, can't help you. 19:54:14 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:10 uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:45 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:05:10 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:32 -!- lichtblau [~user@pD95409D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:47 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:52 hefner: no problem, i got all the libs from cvs climacs,mcclim,flexichain,slime and spatial-trees 20:10:03 got clisp from cvs too 20:10:14 and bound them all to start from clisp 20:10:27 neither in clisp do they work nor in sbcl 20:11:01 semyon421 [~semyon@ip-95-221-70-56.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:11:11 all loads ok, just when running it hangs 20:11:24 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.6.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:11:45 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:51 and when running clisp as inferior in emacs, emacs hangs too, unless i kill the clisp climacs process with htop 20:11:54 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-166-61.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:12:09 i can't even send it a C-c C-c in emacs 20:12:23 -!- chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has left #lisp 20:12:57 lichtblau [~user@pD95409D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 I'm skeptical that it really doesn't work in SBCL 20:14:06 heh 20:14:22 seriously, none of those systems have changed much in months 20:14:29 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@ip-95-221-70-56.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:33 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:53 suggests something screwy on your machine 20:15:37 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.133.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:16:34 I'd try running mcclim demos to make sure they work, or failing that, CLX demos 20:17:27 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.164.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:45 ok 20:18:53 i think i found some problems regarding my setup here 20:19:27 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:21:02 -!- slyrus___ [~slyrus@206.173.140.9.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:22:19 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:40 ikki [~ikki@189.139.218.188] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 20:30:36 -!- uranther [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:30:57 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@124.125.181.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:36:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.218.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:43:51 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 20:44:37 -!- joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:45:14 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-94-203.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:57 -!- md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:20 joga [~joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 20:51:03 ikki [~ikki@189.247.8.155] has joined #lisp 21:02:44 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:08 -!- pnq [asdf@AC8138C2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:26 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:13:46 *hefner* wonders why it is that under darwin, a segfaulting program freezes up for about half a second before it prints the "segmentation fault" message and exits 21:16:52 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-149-190.aei.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:16 maden [~maden@dsl-149-190.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 21:20:40 hefner: you don't need to crash a program to make it freeze on MacOSX, just poping down a menu is enough in general. 21:22:00 -!- sdkmvx [~martin@unaffiliated/sdkmvx] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:23:01 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 21:26:46 -!- Aszarsha [~foo@91-164-143-100.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:29:58 wtf, whereis sb-posix registered normally ? 21:30:35 i mean where does sbcl look for when it searches ? 21:31:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:05 marioxcc [~user@200.92.164.200] has joined #lisp 21:32:32 Aszarsha [~foo@91-164-151-253.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:40 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.164.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:54 marioxcc [~user@200.92.164.200] has joined #lisp 21:32:56 Kibane [Kibane@83.231.63.80] has joined #lisp 21:33:23 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:34:34 sepult: $SBCL_HOME/contrib/sb-posix/ iirc. 21:34:43 see sbcl(1) for some more info 21:35:14 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755625.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:00 i have it in /usr/lib/sbcl/sb-posix but somehow it won't find it 21:38:12 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:39:21 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:04 -!- fsmunoz [~fsmunoz@a81-84-225-153.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:43:24 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:43 not /usr/local/lib/... ? 21:44:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping 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