00:00:53 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:01:18 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:22 Paraselene [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:12 pnq [asdf@ACA326FA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:18 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:26 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:57 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:11:11 mathrick: still awake? 00:11:16 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:12:30 madnificent: somewhat, in my bead and reading linj :) 00:12:34 *bed 00:12:34 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:52 sounds like the perfect solution 00:12:53 good luck 00:13:01 thanks 00:14:47 -!- vmmenon 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ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-98.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:06:53 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:09:23 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-33-41.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:11:23 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:57 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-229.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:33 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: foo.] 01:38:56 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 01:39:26 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: vmmenon] 01:40:07 minion: clhs list-all-packages 01:40:13 hmm... 01:40:16 clhs: list-all-packages 01:40:36 slyrus, They are AWOL 01:41:22 lazy bots 01:43:07 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-229.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:53:54 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:53:55 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:21 help 01:56:40 oops nvm that 01:58:00 varjag [~eugene@60-248-142-238.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:18 So, in Gnome, they have this pygobject-codegen that parses their C headers and generate a 'scheme' file, and then use it to generate a python module to bind to Gnome functions/methods. Is there anything exploiting these .defs 'scheme' files to generate lisp FFIs? 01:59:24 seems a very round about way to swig C, is there a reason for it? 02:00:27 pjb``: Why would that be preferable to gobject-introspection? 02:00:54 I don't have the impression they use Swig. The reason here is that I'd want to embed ecl into planner which is a gnome application and they use pygobject-codegen to generate the python FFI to embed python in it. 02:01:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:01:13 And I don't know anything about gnome. 02:01:44 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:56 Anyways, it seems I could use these .defs files to generate the needed CFFI easily. 02:02:51 OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:10 Perhaps there's something done with GTK already... 02:03:12 -!- sundaysatan [~sundaysat@c-65-96-217-93.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:03:32 pjb``: Seriously, have a look at GObject Introspection. 02:04:27 ok. 02:04:49 Yes, that should answer my other question which is what kind of object system do they have... 02:05:26 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:05:49 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:08:13 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:09:28 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:50 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-62b1e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:10:28 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:55 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:58 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 02:14:35 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:14:41 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:42 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 02:15:02 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:56 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0126-56-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:14 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:57 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:21:29 -!- Kizaru [~plaz@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:36 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:51 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0126-56-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 02:24:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:25:18 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:20 -!- OmniMancer1 is now known as OmniMancer 02:34:00 andelf [~andelf@119.118.233.50] has joined #lisp 02:37:39 yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has joined #lisp 02:40:06 so what versions of macos does sbcl ostensibly support these days? 02:41:01 (i.e. can we just get rid of the dlshim altogether?) 02:42:33 ah, chandler, just the guilty party I was looking for :) 02:42:59 -!- varjag [~eugene@60-248-142-238.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:43:19 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:45:02 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:52:10 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-39-71.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:58:42 varjag [~eugene@60-248-142-238.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:12 -!- sellout [~greg@70-91-193-41-BusName-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 03:00:20 -!- toxygen [~toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:00:36 toxygen [toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 03:00:47 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 03:03:24 n00p [~z0r@unaffiliated/n00p] has joined #lisp 03:03:33 what is the point of eq? 03:03:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:04:26 to compare objects, other than numbers and characters, for sameness 03:04:53 weren't you asking this already? 03:05:21 Well, I read ahead, and didn't understand the answer. 03:05:59 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:01 then you should ask what you didn't understand 03:06:05 why wouldn't it be suitable for comparing numbers or characters? 03:06:36 because they can be copied at any time 03:06:53 what can be copied at any time? 03:07:05 numbers and characters... 03:07:36 in that case, if an object composes of numbers and/or characters, then eq would be unsuitable for comparing that object too, right? 03:07:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:08:00 no, it would be suitable 03:08:12 why? the numbers within the object "can be copied at any time"... 03:08:16 <_3b`> no, the object has its own identity, regardless of the contents 03:08:34 because eq doesn't care about contents of an object 03:09:20 why does eq discriminate between int/char and object like this? 03:09:48 <_3b`> partially just 'because the spec says so' :) 03:10:17 May I have a link to the spec? 03:10:22 clhs eq 03:10:33 no! 03:10:34 is that the spec? 03:10:45 <_3b`> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm#eq 03:11:08 *_3b`* points out the 'Spec' in HyperSpec 03:12:10 i liked specbot better, _3b` is a bit slower 03:12:20 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:12:51 "An implementation is permitted to make ``copies'' of characters and numbers at any time" <--- am implementation of what? A common lisp implementation, or an implementation of a project written in common lisp? 03:13:08 of common lisp, obviously 03:13:08 <_3b`> of common lisp 03:13:21 ok 03:13:26 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-029-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:14:07 <_3b`> i think it calls things written in CL 'program's 03:14:33 <_3b`> or 'conforming code' 03:14:43 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.176.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:50 you can consult the glossary http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_a.htm when you're unsure 03:14:52 True... 03:15:02 ty, better run off to college now :) 03:15:42 _3b`: 'conforming program' too 03:16:42 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:16:44 there is even a definition of 'programmer' 03:17:52 so you should adhere to that definition to be able to write conforming programs 03:19:12 <_3b`> hmm, has to be 'active' 03:19:20 well, I wouldn't be a programmer if I didn't write programs... 03:19:23 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-91-193-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:19:25 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6657d0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 03:19:46 but a programmer is only typically human, not always 03:21:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:04 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:57 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:26:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:05 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:06 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:26:10 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 03:26:27 developers of standards need to become lawyers, so they understand what is void due to being too vague. 03:27:13 no they just need more advocates! 03:27:18 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-223-150-41.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:29:51 Bob_Woodward [~dvjenning@cpe-24-27-92-149.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:09 summers [summers@2001:470:1f11:6a1:12a1::1] has joined #lisp 03:30:42 nah. standard developers just like to fluff their writing up with heaps of shit 03:31:09 Linuxbyte_Lilo [~d3a19f4a@gateway/web/freenode/x-mkarrzuzgfqbyjwr] has joined #lisp 03:31:09 -!- Linuxbyte_Lilo [~d3a19f4a@gateway/web/freenode/x-mkarrzuzgfqbyjwr] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:31:37 "an active entity, typically a human, that writes a program, and that might or might not also be a user of the program." could have been "an active entity that writes a program." if they had chosen to. 03:31:38 -!- summers [summers@2001:470:1f11:6a1:12a1::1] has left #lisp 03:31:50 Gnustack [~a46d92b5@gateway/web/freenode/x-jibvispyjuyjzgcj] has joined #lisp 03:32:05 But it may not be human, ehh? 03:32:18 summers [summers@2001:470:1f11:6a1:12a1::1] has joined #lisp 03:32:19 Molishgnu [~7773883e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tgqcknrdznubhrvb] has joined #lisp 03:32:27 Codegnu [~29bd241a@gateway/web/freenode/x-evcgtvbpwuigybnf] has joined #lisp 03:32:27 Molishtimecop_fa [~de7cc4cc@gateway/web/freenode/x-dmenetoqpmzpueye] has joined #lisp 03:32:30 CL is the programmable programming language after all 03:32:32 stallmanStackHit [~89c3b00b@gateway/web/freenode/x-eeqjpmancyxxizfq] has joined #lisp 03:32:33 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: XTC RAVEZ CANDY VISORZ WATER BOTTLEZ LOVE PEACE TRIPLE STACKED PAUL OAKENFOLD PLUR GLOWSTIX LOCKJAW PACIFIARS TURNTABLES PLUR EX STROBE LIGHTS LASER SHOW UNDERGROUND RAVE RAVE RAVE XXX FUCK FUCK FUCK LOVE EVERY1 KANDY BRACELETZ ACID WEED POT DRUG DRUG DRUG SPESHAL K TRANKWILIZER EXXXSTASY COLORS UNDERGROUND RAVE MUZIK XTC DANCE ALL NITE FUCK THE PARENTZ DEYHDRATION HUGE PANTS 03:32:37 my dog writes programs 03:33:04 umm I suppose there is no ops about? 03:33:11 our washmachines too 03:33:30 wash, rinse, repeat! 03:33:31 lol 03:34:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 03:34:43 -!- Bob_Woodward [~dvjenning@cpe-24-27-92-149.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 03:34:50 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:00 Bob_Woodward [~dvjenning@cpe-24-27-92-149.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:15 they program my underwear 03:35:20 Node_code [~7ca06329@gateway/web/freenode/x-uqhetsdcbxlmchvw] has joined #lisp 03:35:37 LinuxLiloslob [~de7cc4cc@gateway/web/freenode/x-guwzeysoydtedhmy] has joined #lisp 03:35:37 Gnu_Stack [~ce405c10@gateway/web/freenode/x-mlnxnaggalnqkxah] has joined #lisp 03:35:41 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Are you wealthy? I'm just curious if this influences your thinking. Is your household income above the median of $51,000/year, or closer to the 90th percentile of household income of just under $125,000/year? 03:35:51 bikcmpLez [~8d3508e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-ymickcskimrltdjr] has joined #lisp 03:36:03 Gnu_NodeWarez [~75f07833@gateway/web/freenode/x-qqdgbrjlxoowplua] has joined #lisp 03:36:03 just drop that question 03:36:06 pilosoftMolish [~5b946da5@gateway/web/freenode/x-kibsqtihcluoyafs] has joined #lisp 03:36:07 Linux_bicycleBik [~bd39f752@gateway/web/freenode/x-kzhgsapcbefbqaom] has joined #lisp 03:36:08 -!- Gnustack [~a46d92b5@gateway/web/freenode/x-jibvispyjuyjzgcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:28 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: the only solution is to go up there with your katana and show them who wears the kimono in your dojo 03:36:29 ByteLezLinux [~be798ac4@gateway/web/freenode/x-xgqxwvybhspsnycl] has joined #lisp 03:36:31 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Gilles de Rais had us all fooled, with his two sided life. On one end, he was a fabulously wealthy nobleman. On the other side he broke into my farmhouse , grabbed my son around the waist, and carried him off! He took him to his chateau for a glorious night of rape, followed by death by suffocation on Mr. de Rais' dong. He was nice enough to have an artist record the e 03:36:39 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Anime? Could you be any more of a fucking useless nerd? Seriously. I know people like that who go to my high school, they wish their whole goddamned lives were anime. Probably because their parents got divorced and TOTALLY DON'T CARE when they come home and announce that they're gay or something. 03:36:43 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Sometimes I cut my penis when I get depressed...Unfortunatly, I managed to half-circumsize myself last night, after I got incredibly depressed about my girlfriend leaving me. I was devastated. 03:36:49 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: im gonna lift you with a forklift so high you'll beg to come down 03:36:52 -!- Codegnu [~29bd241a@gateway/web/freenode/x-evcgtvbpwuigybnf] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:52 -!- stallmanStackHit [~89c3b00b@gateway/web/freenode/x-eeqjpmancyxxizfq] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:52 -!- Molishtimecop_fa [~de7cc4cc@gateway/web/freenode/x-dmenetoqpmzpueye] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:52 -!- Molishgnu [~7773883e@gateway/web/freenode/x-tgqcknrdznubhrvb] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:57 bicyclewarez [~c8771f02@gateway/web/freenode/x-sflwaqdbcmsolvhh] has joined #lisp 03:37:10 Opencode [~4e56cae6@gateway/web/freenode/x-lkyyxdxkzktwbthy] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 Openmolish_Cock [~42b269f2@gateway/web/freenode/x-bnbutdgonkdeqefj] has joined #lisp 03:37:31 bicycle_FatSco [~53f745c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-neiyrulpthohugtn] has joined #lisp 03:38:45 gnucodebsd [~5051bdf0@gateway/web/freenode/x-ifcbulgcvhvmogay] has joined #lisp 03:38:55 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:39:07 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: any 1 got the move tripple x with vin deasal, not pr0n 03:39:41 -!- toxygen [toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39:53 oh ich mag die glatze 03:39:57 lol 03:40:10 -!- Gnu_Stack [~ce405c10@gateway/web/freenode/x-mlnxnaggalnqkxah] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:10 -!- Node_code [~7ca06329@gateway/web/freenode/x-uqhetsdcbxlmchvw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:10 -!- LinuxLiloslob [~de7cc4cc@gateway/web/freenode/x-guwzeysoydtedhmy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:27 WarezLorez [~5289c38a@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmwxwyqhvtmpljiz] has joined #lisp 03:40:33 Bytestack [~dea582d6@gateway/web/freenode/x-tgdyfggiimcpudqr] has joined #lisp 03:40:34 LinuxWarez [~c83fa70d@gateway/web/freenode/x-lholrenrddywsfcg] has joined #lisp 03:40:40 florer ? 03:40:43 bicycleopenFat [~71fcb7eb@gateway/web/freenode/x-iorgonuxmwziraty] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 toxygen [~toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 03:40:45 to prosper ? 03:40:45 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Your theories interest me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. 03:40:47 BicyclestallmanC [~7b7d9c87@gateway/web/freenode/x-shuceycdxmnfaimf] has joined #lisp 03:40:49 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: guys i am shitting in my pants at this very moment i can feel the turds smashing against my white cotton briefs ohh yeah 03:40:50 nodeneckbeard [~5660e20e@gateway/web/freenode/x-crkimfhefomwnghp] has joined #lisp 03:40:51 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: I shit into a tupper ware. I also like metal containers like the ones you use for camping or in the military. then i freeze them or keep them in the refrigerator for a few days. if you really seal the container tight, the shit can be stored much longer. Have you ever tried to shove a frozen turd up your ass? that is really hot, fuck yourself with your own turd. cool 03:40:53 molish_cock [~766094cf@gateway/web/freenode/x-zqmdjhsvnbjqkrnx] has joined #lisp 03:40:54 -!- Linux_bicycleBik [~bd39f752@gateway/web/freenode/x-kzhgsapcbefbqaom] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:54 -!- Gnu_NodeWarez [~75f07833@gateway/web/freenode/x-qqdgbrjlxoowplua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:54 -!- bikcmpLez [~8d3508e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-ymickcskimrltdjr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:40:57 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: "Shh," Snape said, their mouths very close. He lifted his hand off Harry's erection and smoothed it over his cheek. It was a breathless sort of moment, in a series of moments. Harry looked at Snape's face, enjoying the sensual transformation. Features normally so severe softened by desire, flushed, glistening. Harry didn't have time to wonder what Snape saw in his own fac 03:40:59 ugh 03:41:04 BytetimecopCock [~c636ca46@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqhkwoqdfczulikb] has joined #lisp 03:41:05 Freesco [~cbc7d76f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ojjmzbpeerzrblse] has joined #lisp 03:41:09 Stacklez [~55c27f0b@gateway/web/freenode/x-sgbsnlzqtzeioopk] has joined #lisp 03:41:13 Code_lilo [~d51ea0a0@gateway/web/freenode/x-ubpypvbtqjwvdipx] has joined #lisp 03:41:16 -!- ByteLezLinux [~be798ac4@gateway/web/freenode/x-xgqxwvybhspsnycl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:16 -!- pilosoftMolish [~5b946da5@gateway/web/freenode/x-kibsqtihcluoyafs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:22 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Rory touched my virgin junk liberally. He strapped me into his Trans Am and told me we were taking a detour on the way back from the prom. I could not believe what the fuck was going on. He vomited red many times as he had been drinking heavily. I told him the athletic staff would not approve of the star quarterback falling asleep inside an underage girl. There it is. My dad fo 03:41:22 TimecopbsdPiloso [~c1e3fa6f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ftgszpakofxedbuh] has joined #lisp 03:41:22 SlobCock_fat [~ca337793@gateway/web/freenode/x-wejceogbcvicduku] has joined #lisp 03:41:24 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: RIP klerck!! :-( 03:41:30 Pilosoft_Warez_s [~d876efe3@gateway/web/freenode/x-bedswkwltjsbsyha] has joined #lisp 03:41:37 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: "Star Wars" was the highlight of my abusive childhoo. My father brutally belted me frequently, and the rest of the family, a term which I use very loosely, just hid what he did to me. 03:41:38 -!- bicyclewarez [~c8771f02@gateway/web/freenode/x-sflwaqdbcmsolvhh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:50 no ops around ? 03:41:57 ByteFat [~526e0a12@gateway/web/freenode/x-ahjrelkwwircsizg] has joined #lisp 03:42:00 -!- bicycle_FatSco [~53f745c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-neiyrulpthohugtn] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:42:02 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Niggers fucked my ass liberally. They strapped me onto the hood of their Cadillac Escalade and could not keep their enormous dicks out of me. They were performing many red flag touches. I could not believe how big their cocks were. I told the niggers the city would not approve of an undercover police officer shitting blood for a week without a doctor's note. 03:42:03 there are many ops around 03:42:10 +, -, *, / 03:42:12 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: I swear i must be the only person that can use IE and not get all that crap. I bet its because i know not press the X button on a popup...Yeah i bet thats it. Oh and i dont go to a warez sites like an idiot. 03:42:22 -!- Opencode [~4e56cae6@gateway/web/freenode/x-lkyyxdxkzktwbthy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:42:39 Fatstallman [~5296a592@gateway/web/freenode/x-qsiufttcdmewxfez] has joined #lisp 03:42:48 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Apparently everyone is up in arms about this new racist Six Flags Atlanta ride, they say it negatively portrays african americans. I guess the name is a little bit insensitive. They call it the 'Nigger Experience' and the ride is: when you get in the parking lot at the end of the day, you realize that niggers have broken into your car and stolen your stereo. I don't know what 03:42:55 sepult: they will all give errors though...SPAMMER is not of type NUMBER...etc 03:43:28 -!- Openmolish_Cock [~42b269f2@gateway/web/freenode/x-bnbutdgonkdeqefj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:50 -!- gnucodebsd [~5051bdf0@gateway/web/freenode/x-ifcbulgcvhvmogay] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:57 ai, beam me up spocky, they all get me wrong here! 03:44:04 lol 03:44:04 codeslob [~29bd241a@gateway/web/freenode/x-amvgeyfnvbfyndfh] has joined #lisp 03:44:27 BikcmpOpen_Pilos [~774d8af4@gateway/web/freenode/x-fcmboyjreucrnvgn] has joined #lisp 03:44:28 Stallmanstack [~c879bc58@gateway/web/freenode/x-utzktibyegrrbxfq] has joined #lisp 03:44:31 lezbicyclefree [~d06da811@gateway/web/freenode/x-dqfimzfkfmjzhawt] has joined #lisp 03:44:31 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: I bet Blihoorlt is one of those guys who has a "word of the day" calendar on his desk, and every morning he nearly pees his pants because he's so excited that he's going to learn a new word that he will use all day long (and usually incorrectly), and then promptly forget it the next day when he tears off the page. 03:44:43 freeScobicycle [~c8f9c442@gateway/web/freenode/x-ojslryxaebrffylz] has joined #lisp 03:44:51 CockByteWarez [~c922f492@gateway/web/freenode/x-ijxeqlhzsopxjgog] has joined #lisp 03:45:04 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: Tokyo is a great country. I have been there. Its provinces (shinagawa, shinjuku, roppongi) are incredibly vast and there is an inter-provincial high speed train that links them all! The best part is that the train also allows you to travel to neighboring countries, for example if you wanted to visit the country of Osaka you could do so because they use the same currency. 03:45:06 BikcmpPilosoftCo [~8d3508e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-zulyhyunmsvbfggi] has joined #lisp 03:45:07 Bsdfat [~6e89685a@gateway/web/freenode/x-efdcricqpkzfwate] has joined #lisp 03:45:09 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: MTV is responsible for brainwashing the youth into thinking that niggers are gods and that rap is music! The garbage that they pump into kids heads should be punishable by death via anal electrocution! And has anyone seen the advertisement for the video game called grand theft auto-san andreas? Isn't that special? A game that glorifies niggers selling crack and running t 03:45:18 -!- bicycleopenFat [~71fcb7eb@gateway/web/freenode/x-iorgonuxmwziraty] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:18 -!- nodeneckbeard [~5660e20e@gateway/web/freenode/x-crkimfhefomwnghp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:18 -!- BicyclestallmanC [~7b7d9c87@gateway/web/freenode/x-shuceycdxmnfaimf] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:18 -!- molish_cock [~766094cf@gateway/web/freenode/x-zqmdjhsvnbjqkrnx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:18 -!- Bytestack [~dea582d6@gateway/web/freenode/x-tgdyfggiimcpudqr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:18 -!- WarezLorez [~5289c38a@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmwxwyqhvtmpljiz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:18 -!- LinuxWarez [~c83fa70d@gateway/web/freenode/x-lholrenrddywsfcg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:24 stallmanSlob [~c9d65188@gateway/web/freenode/x-ahylqwmmftzepsgo] has joined #lisp 03:45:40 -!- Freesco [~cbc7d76f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ojjmzbpeerzrblse] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:40 -!- BytetimecopCock [~c636ca46@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqhkwoqdfczulikb] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:53 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: hi, i came across a picture on 'rate my poo' a few weeks ago, of a female bent over in a forest or something, with a long 'log' coming out of her backside. it's since been vanished from the site - any chance of it being re-posted, or getting a copy of it emailed to me? that would be great! thanks....... 03:46:02 -!- Pilosoft_Warez_s [~d876efe3@gateway/web/freenode/x-bedswkwltjsbsyha] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:02 -!- Stacklez [~55c27f0b@gateway/web/freenode/x-sgbsnlzqtzeioopk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:19 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-97-1.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:24 -!- TimecopbsdPiloso [~c1e3fa6f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ftgszpakofxedbuh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:24 StallmanOpen_Hit [~3b7db120@gateway/web/freenode/x-lfpkibskggbarxkc] has joined #lisp 03:46:33 SlobPilosoft [~7da2dd8b@gateway/web/freenode/x-joqactfdvuazabqb] has joined #lisp 03:46:33 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: I converted so easily. Just this morning, my nostrils were sneering at a murky glass of bladder-beverage that I poured out of my penis. "Do it," I scolded myself. "Transcend the stench; it's cheaper than aspirin." Boldly, I chugged three gulps of my piddle -- yeech! My esophagus bucked disagreeably... My pee is too hot and salty! It's icky! 03:46:46 -!- ByteFat [~526e0a12@gateway/web/freenode/x-ahjrelkwwircsizg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:46 -!- SlobCock_fat [~ca337793@gateway/web/freenode/x-wejceogbcvicduku] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:47:08 -!- Fatstallman [~5296a592@gateway/web/freenode/x-qsiufttcdmewxfez] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:47:08 -!- Code_lilo [~d51ea0a0@gateway/web/freenode/x-ubpypvbtqjwvdipx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:58 -!- BikcmpOpen_Pilos [~774d8af4@gateway/web/freenode/x-fcmboyjreucrnvgn] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:58 -!- codeslob [~29bd241a@gateway/web/freenode/x-amvgeyfnvbfyndfh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:20 -!- Stallmanstack [~c879bc58@gateway/web/freenode/x-utzktibyegrrbxfq] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:42 -!- Bsdfat [~6e89685a@gateway/web/freenode/x-efdcricqpkzfwate] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:42 -!- CockByteWarez [~c922f492@gateway/web/freenode/x-ijxeqlhzsopxjgog] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:42 -!- freeScobicycle [~c8f9c442@gateway/web/freenode/x-ojslryxaebrffylz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:42 -!- lezbicyclefree [~d06da811@gateway/web/freenode/x-dqfimzfkfmjzhawt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:50:26 -!- BikcmpPilosoftCo [~8d3508e7@gateway/web/freenode/x-zulyhyunmsvbfggi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:50:48 -!- stallmanSlob [~c9d65188@gateway/web/freenode/x-ahylqwmmftzepsgo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:51:54 -!- StallmanOpen_Hit [~3b7db120@gateway/web/freenode/x-lfpkibskggbarxkc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:00 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:52:38 -!- SlobPilosoft [~7da2dd8b@gateway/web/freenode/x-joqactfdvuazabqb] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:23 -!- chillywilly [~danielb@cpe-65-28-57-53.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 03:56:56 chillywilly [~danielb@cpe-65-28-57-53.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:55 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:03:35 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:34 ByteBikcmpLez [~c1c8545d@gateway/web/freenode/x-ctvgnsskvpwsmkzr] has joined #lisp 04:04:59 freePilosoftsco [~7bf3d6b9@gateway/web/freenode/x-igyafmtfbiiaoobv] has joined #lisp 04:05:00 Stackcock [~3cd9f843@gateway/web/freenode/x-nvwqeuvjucxmvwof] has joined #lisp 04:05:04 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: A buddy of mine actually had both of his computers confiscated by the FBI. Apparently someone had spoofed his IP (or maybe hacked into his wirless) and made a whole bunch of fraudulent purchases. About 8 months later, the FBI decided to give him his computers back? with all his fursona's files mysteriously deleted. This is an outrage. 04:05:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus 04:05:22 TimecopliloFat [~59b827be@gateway/web/freenode/x-jtttryquhlmxekqr] has joined #lisp 04:05:26 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: I know Africa has its own internet connection.. buncha niggers with mailbags run around for email.. Tech Support is like shakalakuzulu kuntakente cheifs that speek jigabooese 04:05:30 A MESSAGE FROM JASON GATES AKA JASON FISHER AKA BIKCMP: i wipe turd on my tallywacker. im not happy, sometimes i touch my mouth after playin with faeces. i think i have syphalis or scruvy..god bless triffle, i put my balls in triffle....my pubes are 4 inches long. 04:05:38 FreeLez [~daf81ca5@gateway/web/freenode/x-sfqmuvtonzftwmpq] has joined #lisp 04:06:05 -!- slyrus has set mode +b *!*@gateway/web/* 04:06:12 -!- freePilosoftsco [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp by slyrus (freePilosoftsco) 04:06:17 -!- Stackcock [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp by slyrus (Stackcock) 04:06:23 -!- ByteBikcmpLez [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-213-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp by slyrus (ByteBikcmpLez) 04:06:55 *_3b`* suspects kicking them won't help 04:07:20 *chillywilly* suspects the ban BEFORE the kick is they key ;) 04:07:32 <_3b`> yeah, that part should help 04:07:45 ya think? 04:09:26 thanks slyrus 04:09:27 _3b`: close removes the FD from the epoll descriptor 04:10:14 -!- FreeLez [~daf81ca5@gateway/web/freenode/x-sfqmuvtonzftwmpq] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:10:18 <_3b`> fe[nl]ix: ah, that might have been it 04:10:36 -!- TimecopliloFat [~59b827be@gateway/web/freenode/x-jtttryquhlmxekqr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:11:07 *_3b`* ended up just using unexported stuff to check before trying to remove it, rather than trying to maintain my own state to remember if it was enabled or not 04:16:05 -!- derekv [~user@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ?] 04:17:55 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 04:21:16 xinming_ [~hyy@125.109.247.236] has joined #lisp 04:22:54 yeah. perhaps this will get rid of the dlshim for real. 04:25:01 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.249.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:25:39 derekv [~user@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:22 june. already. sheesh. 04:29:00 -!- Bob_Woodward [~dvjenning@cpe-24-27-92-149.tx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:31:37 -!- derekv [~user@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ?] 04:32:42 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:36:02 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:36:55 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 04:37:51 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:43 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-97-1.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:47:46 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:49:57 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-169-248.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 04:54:08 pizzledizzle 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has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:24:20 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #lisp 05:29:41 arggh... these damn leading underscores are a pain. 05:31:15 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:24 jacobian [~jacobian@89.124.152.101] has joined #lisp 05:32:48 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:00 GrayGnome [~MuneNoKag@vpn3-14464.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 05:36:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 05:38:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:41:22 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 05:46:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 05:53:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:56:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:27 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:36 Are non-toplevel defuns required to be supported? 06:06:50 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:08:14 Ah, it was a later "clarification" of the standard that allowed them. 06:08:31 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:09:11 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:10:53 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm135.gamma91.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:16:49 HG` [~HG@xdslel052.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:18:29 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:13 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:20:14 -!- silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:23:59 sglinux [~sglinux@cm135.gamma91.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:30:40 tcr [~tcr@29.182.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 06:30:56 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm135.gamma91.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:33:05 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-13-78.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:33:14 _3b: here? 06:33:25 <_3b`> yes 06:34:39 Did you try the sb-concurrency tests with the number of messages reduces by a factor of 10? 06:34:57 <_3b`> yeah, i think that made it work 06:35:11 sglinux [~sglinux@cm135.gamma91.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:35:23 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-35-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:35:37 <_3b`> tcr: i also some questions about the garbage generated by the queues in sb-concurrency 06:36:51 <_3b`> apparently the garbage is all linked together, so if conservative GC (or whatever) holds onto any of it, it holds on to all of it, potentially very large amounts 06:37:08 you mean in the implementation of the queues themselves? 06:37:44 <_3b`> right, the node instances (and whatever was stored in the queue, since they point to that too) 06:38:07 <_3b`> http://paste.lisp.org/display/105714 is the simple test case i came up with 06:39:45 <_3b`> hmm, annotating it doesn't seem to work since the antispam measures :( 06:39:54 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:41:10 Sounds like something for sbcl-devel; queues were written by nikodemus 06:41:43 <_3b`> ok 06:43:04 I'm on a new machine with different keyboard layout than I'm used to and additionally a back :-) trying to get accustomed to this new setup 06:43:31 it's just so frustrating feeling your productivity reduced by a largish factor suddenly 06:43:37 (my dell broke yesterday) 06:43:49 "additionally a mac" 06:44:18 <_3b`> yeah, i may have to learn emacs cursor movement keys, too hard to hit the arrow keys on this laptop accurately :( 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joined #lisp 08:36:48 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:38:11 good morning 08:38:34 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 08:39:17 thorne [~user@67.42.142.120] has joined #lisp 08:43:42 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111078.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:00 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:27 I have a small question: When I use defconstant and want to bind a value to it, I get an error in the repl like http://paste.lisp.org/+2DO6 . I don't understand why this error occurs. 08:53:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:53:40 t3eblinder: constants should be EQL. "home" and "home" are not EQL, they're just EQUAL. 08:54:02 (progn (defconstant +h+ #1="home") (defconstant +h+ #1#)) should work. 08:54:41 *_3b`* suspects the redefinition is from loading it, not having 2 defconstant forms 08:54:51 Otherwise, you have two solution: only use values that always read again EQL, such as characters, numbers, or symbols, or don't use DEFCONSTANT. 08:55:08 <_3b`> or check for it already being defined 08:55:22 by using a library defconstant-like form. 08:55:58 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:56:07 eg. ALEXANDRIA:DEFINE-CONSTANT 08:56:39 pjb``: okay thanks 08:56:57 t3eblinder: you could also internalize your strings, if you want to define string constants. 08:57:08 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-162-7.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:53 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 08:57:54 (defconstant +h+ (string-internalize "home")) (defvar *strings* (make-hash-table :test (function equal))) (defun string-internalize (s) (setf (gethash s *strings*) (gethash s *strings* s))) 08:58:28 So when you reload, defvar doesn't recreate the hash-table, and string-internalize returns the original string. 09:01:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.69] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:08:34 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:02 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 09:14:36 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:15:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:20:52 now we cannot paste to lisppaste through xml-rpc, right? 09:21:26 pjb``: still here? 09:22:21 pjb``: Do you have some stuff to parse command line options? I know there's a a getopt-like library, but I'm not sure I want it 09:24:03 what there not to want about command-line-arguments? 09:24:13 pjb``: I write a litte backup script with include / exclude files, with 'dynamic' size checking (limited tape size, for getting a good size-layout per user) 09:24:58 (there's an "is" missing somewhere in that sentence) 09:24:58 lichtblau: how you mean? 09:25:16 is that a different project? 09:25:56 tcr: I like ITA's library called command-line-arguments, but obviously I don't know what your requirements are. 09:26:44 tcr: I have something, but it's quite different from get-opt. 09:27:35 It's in http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=b9b16a8adddebb644d23ef963ab61522869586fb&hb=dfa357fa9e8fc563d4ba77f5a6916015bcb0d27f&f=script.lisp 09:27:59 See an example of use in: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=46413831c5584c59fa2a83ae6d430966336866e5&hb=dfa357fa9e8fc563d4ba77f5a6916015bcb0d27f&f=fpm 09:28:38 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:29:29 I would like to add a full fleshed parser to be able to parse rather more "natural" command lines. 09:29:58 Yes that looks more how Id do it 09:31:13 I'll commit a new version of script.lisp this evening, there's a little problem with mixes of &optional &rest and &key. 09:31:57 t3eblinder: I did something like that, for when I was doing my backups on CD. Nowadays, I just buy big enough external hard disks, and use rsync. 09:32:00 ;-) 09:32:56 cmsimon [~iamcms2@209.59.45.32] has joined #lisp 09:33:18 -!- cmsimon is now known as Guest78952 09:33:23 pjb``: doing already, but at work a have to backup something on tape, and there is also space for userfiles... so this is the task :-) 09:33:50 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:31 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-91-193-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:11 -!- Guest78952 [~iamcms2@209.59.45.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:06 csimon [~iamcms2@209.59.45.32] has joined #lisp 09:38:34 -!- csimon is now known as Guest35088 09:38:57 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Inconceivable!] 09:39:15 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:28 udzinari 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timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:12 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:25:22 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:27:12 turbo24prg [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:29:39 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:31:49 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:32:28 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.115.15] has joined #lisp 10:33:01 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:08 madnificent: so after yesternight I've got it mostly down, attempting to add full (== with mutable environment) closures support now 10:37:52 currently LinJ supports the closures-to-anonymous-classes transformation, but only if you don't update any of the closed-over bindings 10:38:34 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping 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timeout: 272 seconds] 11:05:16 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:05:44 aw [~aw@w4105.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:03 madmuppet006 [~alexander@203-211-97-126.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 Kizaru [~plaz@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:10:46 ans [~user@user123.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:50 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 11:11:59 Good evening! 11:12:18 hello plage 11:13:18 Hey mvilleneuve. 11:15:33 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:08 Two problems solved. One (telephone) to go. 11:25:25 how do you give a simple-vector a name so you can access it using (svref simple-vector index) where Im guessing simple-vector is the name of the array? 11:25:41 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:26:23 madmuppet006: er, defparameter? 11:26:45 just like you "name" anything else. 11:27:39 plage:Im referencing http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial2.html where theres no mention of that 11:28:27 is there anyplace that shows an example? 11:28:46 clhs defparameter 11:28:52 oh, no bot. 11:29:49 madmuppet006: (defparameter ) 11:30:25 plage:appreciate the help thanks will try that 11:30:33 No problem. 11:30:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:31:31 plage: DEFPARAMETER might be confusing here actually 11:31:39 -!- Kizaru [~plaz@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:56 madmuppet006: there are many ways to introduce new names (properly called "bindings") 11:32:04 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 11:32:12 DEFPARAMETER is one, but that's not the one you want most of the time 11:32:20 I just tried (defparameter (num)(make-array 2)) and got an error 11:32:33 madmuppet006: because you're groping in the dark 11:32:40 lemme take a look at that tutorial 11:32:44 yup surely 11:33:01 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:58 rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 11:34:17 madmuppet006: Now what made you think (num) was a proper variable name? 11:34:18 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:21 bhttp://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial.html <-- uh-oh, SETFing undeclared variable 11:34:24 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:34:47 madmuppet006: it's bad and confusing, you're better off reading PCL or the gentle introduction 11:34:48 madmuppet006: Do you know any other programming language? 11:35:28 done some programming in c and a little in scheme .. lisp is giving me headaches ..:p 11:35:39 madmuppet006: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ <-- PCL. if you have any experience with other languages, go here 11:35:43 :) 11:35:59 well, by "any" I really mean "can program competently in another language" 11:35:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.86.115.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:36:09 madmuppet006: So in C, if I say you can write ; you gladly think (int) (x); is fine? 11:36:25 otherwise, take a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 11:36:56 plage: now that' 11:37:01 s really besides the point 11:37:13 groping in the dark is an explanation enough 11:37:46 mathrick: Sure, just in a bad mood I guess. Getting better, though. 11:37:49 madmuppet006: take a look at these, if anyone is easier, stick with it, then come back once you have enough basics to start asking questions :) 11:38:11 *either one 11:38:20 plage: fair enough, grumpy days suck 11:38:30 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:38:51 especially if they last several days. 11:39:24 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-195.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:39:57 ouch, get better soon then 11:40:02 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 11:40:10 working on it. thanks. 11:40:10 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:00 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:46:20 madmuppet006: btw, if you're stumbling anywhere, it's okay to ask. But it's just better if you get the basic from a good book first, it'll save both your and our time and sanity 11:47:35 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:24 If I have class X, with Y as a superclass, how do I stop Y's initialize-instance being called on X? 11:48:56 Phantom_Hoover: you mean the :after one? 11:49:06 Probably. 11:49:07 in a word, you don't 11:49:18 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-216-12.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [] 11:49:28 :after methods can't do anything to influence the method dispatch 11:49:41 Phantom_Hoover: why do you need to do that? 11:50:09 Do what? 11:50:19 stop Y's INITIALIZE-INSTANCE 11:50:46 Y's initialize-instance takes an argument I don't want for X. 11:51:01 then X is not really a Y, is it ? 11:51:41 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51:42 Hmm, perhaps. 11:51:45 OK. 11:51:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 11:51:51 Maybe Y is an X 11:51:56 ...that was fast 11:52:03 it's annoying when people do it 11:52:13 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 maybe it was unintentional 11:53:14 hopefully 11:53:41 or he was eaten by a grue 11:54:08 Happens... 11:56:07 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 11:58:11 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:58:42 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:18 But the problem is that X is a Y, it's just a specific type of Y that doesn't need one of the arguments. 11:59:47 Phantom_Hoover: so maybe you just want to say &allow-other-keys? 12:00:16 "stop FOO from being called" has a very different meaning from "it passes an argument I don't really need" 12:00:29 have you considered the semantic changes that entails? 12:00:43 No... 12:01:08 if you prevent the initialisation from being done, you're breaking the expectations 12:01:16 Yes, I know. 12:01:22 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:28 that's not something you do just because an argument is not strictly necessary in one of the subclasses 12:01:38 pjb [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:52 Say I have a VEHICLE, which has 4 tires, and a MOTORBIKE which is a VEHICLE, but doesn't have 4 tires. In this case, the heirearchy has to be changed. Aren't you in a similar case ? 12:01:54 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:02:11 Phantom_Hoover: it's not an uncommon situation, and if that happens, you just declare it ignored, or add &allow-other-keys 12:02:58 Wait, the problem is that when Y's initialize-instance is called it doesn't have the keys, and so the whole thing doesn't work. 12:04:28 Phantom_Hoover: then you might want to consider an :initform in Y's DEFCLASS 12:04:40 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:04:40 could you give a more concrete description of what X and Y are? 12:05:56 The argument that Y expects is only used for initialisation. 12:06:08 So an :initform wouldn't help. 12:08:25 asarch [~asarch@189.188.151.102] has joined #lisp 12:08:42 Phantom_Hoover: add a default value in (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((obj y) ...) ...)? 12:09:08 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:13 csimon [~iamcms2@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:33 Oh, good idea. 12:09:41 -!- csimon is now known as Guest95409 12:10:31 milanj [~milanj_@178.223.157.41] has joined #lisp 12:11:51 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:13:15 -!- Guest95409 [~iamcms2@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:29 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 -!- madmuppet006 [~alexander@203-211-97-126.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:02 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:17 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:20:57 laynor [~user@dhcp-892b9b6a.ucd.ie] has joined #lisp 12:22:33 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:22:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:24:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:16 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:31:58 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:45 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-95-151.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:32:57 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has joined #lisp 12:36:01 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-195.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:36:03 Oh, dear! This is a "children buffet special" today in the restaurant of the hotel I just moved into. An hour ago it was tolerable. Now it's very noisy! 12:36:55 Boules Quiestce? 12:36:59 -!- jacobian [~jacobian@89.124.152.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:39:27 hi, could you help me with this please ? 12:39:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/111032 12:40:19 pjb: I don't know what that means, sorry? 12:41:59 <_3b`> kiuma: did you try looking in the function the backtrace says the error is in? 12:42:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rebooot] 12:42:57 kiuma: why do you think it's read-reply?.. looks like make-imap to me 12:42:58 kiuma: error is in make-imap -> a (format t nil ...) nil have to be a string. look at that function 12:43:26 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:27 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0126-56-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 12:43:51 <_3b`> kiuma: also, did you turn off the compiler or something? that backtrace looks odd 12:44:15 _3b`: turn off the compiler? how do you do that? 12:44:49 <_3b`> madnificent: sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* i think 12:45:12 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:14 t3eblinder, yes thanks a lot 12:45:43 _3b, it's :COMPILE 12:46:46 t3eblinder, how did you understand at first sight ? 12:47:57 plage: ow, ow, ow, I feel for you 12:48:06 reading the error text and backtrace helps 12:48:44 mathrick: It is actually becoming spectacularly silly, and I find I am kind of enjoying it. 12:49:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:28 plage: I'm sort of allergic to kids in groups >1, I actually have a moderately strong physical reaction 12:49:45 mathrick: I feel the same. 12:49:46 -!- ans [~user@user123.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has left #lisp 12:49:54 *stassats* is allergic to grown ups 12:50:23 I guess the joy of having a Wifi connection that stays up for more than a few minutes has numbed my senses. 12:50:32 tee hee 12:51:14 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:51:35 OK, I think I have had enough of kids for today. Off to bed. Good night. 12:51:39 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 12:52:27 rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 12:53:10 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:53:39 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 12:54:08 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:04 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 12:56:15 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-139-149.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:02 -!- moeffju[Away] is now known as moeffju 12:59:00 mathrick: I knew a lecturer that had allergy to students 12:59:28 can't blame him :) 12:59:32 mind you, that guy managed to sleep during his lectures and practicals, iirc :D 12:59:59 that's impressive 13:00:08 Sleeping during the lectures is quite 13:00:10 (he was also chosen by student boy as one of the better faculty members x) 13:00:38 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-28-82-250-151-180.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:09 also, he wasn't my lecturer, so I can't elaborate on quality of his teaching, but he was a fine comrade in learning japanese :D 13:02:46 ans [~user@user123.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:50 (we had quite an age span in our group at PJWSTK open course) 13:03:52 kiuma: look at the backtrace, there you see it if you step back 13:04:16 minion: memo for plage: Actually it's Quiès, but you won't make me believe it doesn't come from "Qui est-ce?"; http://www.quies.com/pages/produit_Dormir-Les-mousses_147_1.html http://www.quies.com/pages/page_Notre-histoire_189_1.html 13:05:03 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:21 pjb: quies is latin for rest. 13:05:30 pjb: mousse, now you made me want a chocolate mousse :) 13:05:46 t3eblinder, ahh backtrace 2 :) I'm not so accustomed to backtrace reading :) 13:06:58 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:10:28 pjb: minion has left us 13:13:31 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 13:20:55 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:23:53 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:25:08 -!- aw [~aw@w4105.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 13:30:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.129.207] has joined #lisp 13:32:50 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 13:33:18 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:14 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:16 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:05 minion will be missed :-( 13:45:27 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:45:35 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:35 There needs to be more volunteers for bot maintenance. 13:45:39 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:46:05 kuwabara: yes, but it's funnier the other way around, foremost if you remember Fernand Raynaud http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3LUIZzifPw 13:46:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cdvngicxhdczeogv] has left #lisp 13:47:07 Guthur: I say, let's do like unix or emacs, let's have direct access to the entrains of the bot directly from the channel. << minion: (defun connect-again (server channel) ...) >> 13:47:11 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:47:15 s/entrains/entrails/ 13:48:18 It would have to be a limited/secure interface. 13:49:08 Not sure if it is ever good to have a system exposed like that on IRC. 13:56:39 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.151.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57:01 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0126-56-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:58:49 ejs [~eugen@193-230-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:20 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-98-118-48-156.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:37 -!- yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:04:19 tcr1 [~tcr@115.132.133.53] has joined #lisp 14:04:32 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:04:45 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 14:05:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@81.181.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:10:19 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:10:35 sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:09 fisxoj [~fisxoj@pd95c2932.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:15 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@115.132.133.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:13:25 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:14:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:14:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.6] 14:15:07 -!- jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:16:59 tcr [~tcr@203.82.92.42] has joined #lisp 14:17:26 hmm... surely define-alien-routine is calling dlsym somewhere down the line, right? 14:18:07 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 14:18:34 Odin- [~sbkhh@hugmyndahus.hir.is] has joined #lisp 14:19:51 salut! 14:21:15 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:22:02 ave sepult 14:22:39 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:23:39 ah, there we go, yes... ok, I can find things at runtime but sb-alien::*runtime-dlhandle* is hosed. darn. 14:24:14 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:32 lisppaste: url? 14:24:43 Must be muted. 14:25:34 ... or not? I can't find a matching mask. 14:26:38 -!- cupe [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has left #lisp 14:28:06 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:28:20 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:28:57 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 14:32:33 tcr1 [~tcr@203.82.94.2] has joined #lisp 14:33:58 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:25 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:34:44 lisppaste: url 14:34:55 Umm its only in the channel 14:35:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.92.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 14:35:02 Guthur: ? 14:35:04 It works fine when I message it 14:35:14 I'd like to tokenise the forllowing string "a00001 OK LOGOUT completed" as "a0001" "OK" "LOGOUT completed" . What's wrong with this call : 14:35:18 message/msg 14:35:27 (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings "(^[\\w]+)(\\W)(BAD|OK|NO)(\\W)(.*)" "a00001 OK LOGOUT completed" ) 14:35:29 probably because lisppaste has not identified itself to nickserv 14:35:30 Yes. Either it's muted by a mask that I'm overlooking, or there's something else going on. 14:35:43 C-Keen: #lisp is not +R, so that shouldn't be a factor. 14:36:00 Oh well; I'll force it for now. 14:36:02 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 14:36:05 -!- chandler has set mode +v lisppaste 14:36:07 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 14:36:09 lisppaste: url? 14:36:09 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:36:22 chandler: I remember having this problem in other channels whenever the freenode servers go into some kind of paranoia mode 14:36:26 aw|rerun [~aw@141.76.6.18] has joined #lisp 14:36:27 Three cheers for lisppaste's return 14:36:41 C-Keen: Oh, right. Yes, I recall having this issue with some other channels. 14:36:48 <_3b`> i think it was intentionally set -v last time it was getting spammed 14:37:24 <_3b`> or time before last i guess 14:39:15 tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.83] has joined #lisp 14:39:38 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 oh apple... way to keep the world's unix developers honest with your gratuitous changes... 14:40:56 ? 14:40:57 I think all-matches-as-strings is not what I'm looking for. What should I use instead to obtain the attended result ? 14:40:59 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@pd95c2932.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:41:32 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111078.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:41:33 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:07 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@203.82.94.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:42:41 MetalDust_zZz [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 -!- MetalDust_zZz is now known as MetalDust 14:43:19 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has joined #lisp 14:43:37 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:46:10 kiuma: does scan-to-strings fit your need ? 14:46:33 fiveop [~fiveop@g229111173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:57 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:39 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:48:42 rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:23 -!- aw|rerun is now known as aw 14:51:43 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:51:59 -!- aw [~aw@141.76.6.18] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 14:52:29 kuwabara, great! 14:52:53 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:54:15 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:56:19 Stattrav [~Stattrav@110.224.208.17] has joined #lisp 14:56:32 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 14:59:28 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-229.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:51 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 15:00:45 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:00 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 15:02:04 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 -!- benny [~benny@i577A84EE.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:03:39 -!- andelf [~andelf@119.118.233.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:05:39 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-jljgsjjhsdoipvni] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:47 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:06:16 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0068-29-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:39 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslel052.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:08 -!- rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:08:08 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 15:08:35 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:11:04 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:03 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 15:15:14 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:03 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 15:16:51 -!- ejs [~eugen@193-230-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:04 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:09 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 15:20:42 why after some time of usage my emacs+slime slow down ? 15:20:52 *why does 15:21:13 it becomes bored 15:21:16 Because the OS reclaims memory from the garbage collector 15:21:49 ejs [~eugen@25-254-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:24 because your repl buffer has grown too big, and fontifying it takes a long time? 15:22:59 I don't think so, I've killed sbcl and restarted it 15:23:10 can I clean repl ? 15:23:14 did you clear your repl window? 15:23:19 C-c M-o 15:23:31 s/window/buffer/ 15:23:36 yea thx 15:24:56 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:14 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 15:26:34 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2014E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:10 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:26 -!- ejs [~eugen@25-254-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:33:53 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 15:34:03 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178.223.157.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:34:13 Any good resources for format examples 15:35:30 cltl2 15:35:35 ejs [~eugen@25-254-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 Though actually I have gone through some examples but still can't get what I want. 15:36:22 benny [~benny@i577A19EF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:50 I'd like to indent a block of text from printing an object 15:36:59 cltl2 includes this: "~:[{~;[~]~:{~S~:[->~S~;~*~]~:^ ~}~:[~; ~]~ ~{~S->~^ ~}~:[~; ~]~[~*~;->~S~;->~*~]~:[}~;]~]" 15:37:37 abend [~alx@199.223.122.118] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 *Guthur* doesn't like format very much 15:38:45 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 15:40:52 -!- ejs [~eugen@25-254-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:45:20 what the 15:47:28 It's an endofunctor over the homomorphisms of cars and cdrs. What's the problem? 15:47:29 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:48:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:34 Ha, take that format obfuscation 15:51:46 pprint-logical-block to the rescue 15:55:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:57:30 powerje [~powerje@75.60.206.10] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 ejs [~eugen@25-254-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:44 kiuma: what lisp do you use? 15:58:56 (nevermind, sbcl) 16:01:03 :) 16:03:51 -!- pjb [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:31 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:23 milanj [~milanj_@178.223.157.41] has joined #lisp 16:06:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:06:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:07:23 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 16:07:36 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 16:07:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:39 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:09:14 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [] 16:13:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:14:52 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 16:16:12 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:16:38 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@110.224.208.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:10 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:17:25 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:19:42 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:20:17 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:20:35 pickles [~paul@d47-69-2-54.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:23:08 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:05 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-60.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:24:15 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26:24 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:44 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 lisppaste: url 16:35:17 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:36:37 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:37:29 guthur pasted "strange note" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111038 16:38:28 aw|rerun [~aw@p54B3FA25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:26 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:43:04 jlf` [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:43:58 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:45:15 -!- aw|rerun is now known as aw 16:45:56 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:55 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 16:56:13 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:56:40 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-60.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 16:56:42 FareWell [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:07 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-60.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:03:22 -!- laynor [~user@dhcp-892b9b6a.ucd.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:07 psilord1 [~psilord@merlin.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:05:47 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:05:59 -!- ejs [~eugen@25-254-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:07:44 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-223-150-41.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:57 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:16:34 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:20:22 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:25:24 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:47 Guthur: remember that macros may expand to some strange forms. You may not be at fault. Try macroexpand? 17:26:14 md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 17:26:44 pjb``, Actually nyef and _3b` got to the bottom of it over on #lispgames 17:26:50 It was indeed the macro expansion 17:27:13 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:27:20 Its actually a note issue in SBCL, #.(string #\tab) was an acceptable workaround 17:27:26 note/noted 17:28:06 hi, when in bare repl (no slime) I got a condition, is there a variable bound to the condition? so I can inspect the slots? 17:28:20 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:34 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 17:28:39 AnotherNub [~lolyfao@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 md1: that would depend on the implementation. In clisp, you can inspect the condition with :i 17:29:31 md1: otherwise, you may wrap your form: (handler-case form (condition (err) (inspect err))) 17:30:00 well yes. problem is that I already am in the debugger, and it's computation which takes a long time 17:31:18 drrho [~rho@chello213047112079.11.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:31:35 md1: in clisp --> :i RET ; in other implementations I don't know, read the doc or type ? or help at the debugger prompt. 17:31:41 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 17:31:57 pjb``: ok, thanks! 17:32:22 In SBCL, have a look for sb-debug:*debug-condition*. 17:32:53 hey guys, i have a question 17:33:10 nyef: that's it, thanks! 17:33:55 md1: So, the missing piece of information here was which lisp implementation you were using. 17:34:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:34:19 when i use (let ((blah (read)))(format "~a" blah)) why does it print the input in capitals? 17:34:22 Which is what "depend on the imlpementation" means. 17:34:44 AnotherNub: because of readtable-case 17:34:51 mhmm 17:35:03 clhs readtable-case 17:35:12 how would i be able to keep it intact as in not changing the case 17:35:41 AnotherNub: readtable-case 17:35:45 (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable nil))) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (let ((thing (read))) (format "~A" thing))) 17:35:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35:59 ahh ok 17:36:04 ... Clearly, we need specbot, even if the rest of the system is down. 17:36:07 ill try that, thank you. 17:36:12 s/"~A"/t "~A"/ 17:37:03 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:38:10 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:50 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-172-187.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:40:25 -!- segv [~mb@p4FC1AAA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:34 segv [~mb@p54BE7D33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:20 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 17:47:27 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:52:07 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-hmpkvklielkubkau] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:23 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:02:12 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-33-192.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:16 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 18:02:31 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:47 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-33-192.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:01 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:10:21 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 18:10:35 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:15:45 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:47 In Common Lisp, in what lexical context are default argument values evaluated in? 18:15:55 s/ in?// 18:17:24 The context in which the function is defined, augmented with the required arguments from the lambda-list, I'd imagine. 18:18:02 Grr, 18:18:08 That complicates things. 18:18:09 Thanks. 18:18:20 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-027-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:24 Complicates how? 18:18:55 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@merlin.cs.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 18:18:56 Now I have to keep track of that stuff when parsing lambda-lists, and make default-value forms into closures. 18:19:21 Ah. 18:20:02 Of course, I can optimize that somewhat by just checking whether a default forms actually closes over any variables, but that requires me to keep track of closed-over variables in the first place. 18:21:53 You should be doing that anyway, to reduce the size of your closures, to determine how much closure state needs to be shared with other closures, and if you can use a specialized representation for particular variables. 18:22:35 quotemstr, Are you implementing a Lisp? 18:22:37 I'm working on changing an interpreter into a compiled-to-AST thing and discovering all kinds of corner cases in the process. Thanks. 18:23:27 Live_ [~lolyfao@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:23:31 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:23:41 -!- Live_ [~lolyfao@77.107.164.131] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:58 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 18:24:28 Guthur: So in short, "yes". 18:25:00 <_3b`> yeah, implementing lisps is a good way to learn about all sorts of corner cases "/ 18:25:07 anair_84 [~aakarsh@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:29 sword` [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:30 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 18:25:35 hlavaty`` [~user@77-22-102-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:10 nuba_ [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:14 qsun_ [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 18:26:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:26:29 chillywi1ly [~danielb@cpe-65-28-57-53.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:42 -!- segv [~mb@p54BE7D33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- AnotherNub [~lolyfao@77.107.164.131] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-91-193-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- chillywilly [~danielb@cpe-65-28-57-53.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- hlavaty` [~user@77-22-102-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- sword [~user@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:42 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:43 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:43 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:26:57 daniel [~daniel@p5082B9D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:03 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:06 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 18:27:20 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:27:25 nyef: The problem is that I'm just using shallow binding for the environment. It's hard to add the ability to trim closures without adding another level of indirection to variable lookup. 18:27:32 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 18:27:43 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:27:46 Fair enough. 18:27:59 I really should come up with something smarter one day. O(N) variable lookup is scary. 18:29:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:29:59 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F3ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:10 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:33:03 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:10 -!- nuba_ is now known as nuba 18:33:17 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:33:46 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-6-17.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:35:06 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-201.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:35:12 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:35:23 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-13-78.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35:34 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-91-193-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:11 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 *quotemstr* wonders whether macroexpand-1 should expand compiler-macros. 18:39:38 quotemstr: dynamic variable binding lookup? 18:40:08 or lexical? 18:40:11 ehu: lexical binding. You keep everything in a list. 18:40:30 oh. ok. then abcl is exactly like that. 18:40:48 Really? 18:40:54 I'd have thought they could do something more clever on the JVM. 18:40:55 for dynamic, I implemented the same scheme as sbcl/ccl 18:41:09 compiled code is more clever. 18:41:14 interpreted code isn't 18:41:49 Really, interpreted code doesn't need to be particularly clever so long as you have a decent compiler. 18:42:10 I'm using SBCL's compile-everything-why-have-an-interpreter approach. 18:42:19 That part is good. What's not good is that my "compiler" is rather dumb at the moment. :) 18:42:28 ... Except that SBCL now also has an interpreter. 18:42:46 Still, generally valid approach. 18:43:17 how long did it take you guys to read, finish and understand "On Lisp" it looks kinda scary. :] 18:43:30 *nyef* didn't bother with "On Lisp". 18:43:34 right. ABCL suffers a performance hit (temporary) when loading compiled functions (in the Sun JVM) 18:43:49 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-22-60.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:43:56 so, for us, short-lived functions are faster to be interpreted. 18:44:01 nyef, what did you read? I want to read everything and anything that will make me a very good lisp programmer. 18:44:10 besides code. :) 18:44:12 what books. 18:44:30 ehu: Fair enough. 18:44:39 nyef: neither did I. 18:44:41 ehu: I'm optimizing more for code size than performance though. :) 18:45:51 with dynamically created lexical bindings (such as in the interpreter); what would be the cost of having good hash for quick lookup though? 18:45:57 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0068-29-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 18:46:06 Well, what got me into lisp programming was reading the TI Explorer "System Software Design Notes", a pile of related code, and actually writing a couple of emulators for the system. 18:46:30 Honestly, Emacs got me into Lisp. 18:46:37 Then PCL. 18:47:09 segmond: I just read code and got some personal coaching of an old lisper to explain the concepts. 18:47:27 then, I read most of the clhs and got some more feedback on the code I wrote. 18:47:41 these days, I write code without coaching. 18:48:06 I think a lot of it is reading code, trying projects that are perhaps just beyond your current skill level, getting feedback from other people, and so on. 18:48:12 ehu, I don't know any old lispers. unless some of you here on IRC are. :) 18:48:17 it will be nice to have a mentor. 18:48:25 IRC is a good place to look for feedback. 18:48:44 nyef: *if* posed the right questions 18:48:48 :-) 18:48:53 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:18 ehu: True. My question was "how do I make this faster?" 18:49:55 ah well, i better get to writing code so i can start getting feedbacks, you guys might barf if you see my code tho, trying to learn not to write imperative lisp code. lol 18:50:23 One important thing is to read about programming style choices and the reasoning behind them, along with code that follows or doesn't follow that choice. 18:50:39 Imperative isn't always bad. 18:50:44 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:50:53 It really depends on what you're trying to do. 18:51:25 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:27 Thus, a good part of learning to program in a given language is calibrating your sense of "taste", as it were. 18:51:35 -!- aw [~aw@p54B3FA25.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 18:51:41 -!- abend [~alx@199.223.122.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:41 yeah, I'm working on that. :) I just need to start writing code and do less reading. 18:53:01 Indeed. Action is important. 18:53:11 Do you have a project in mind? 18:53:44 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 18:53:53 well, i need to start with small projects for now. :) I want to take a stab on AI, but for now, no smaller project in mind. 18:54:03 nyef: Were you working on an ARM port of SBCL at some point in the past? 18:54:10 -!- Guest28462 is now known as brown 18:54:15 but an AI system with NLP and common sense reasoning for the future. :) 18:54:28 Yes, I was working on an ARM port of SBCL... about a week ago. 18:54:40 -!- brown is now known as Guest91123 18:54:47 -!- Guest91123 is now known as reb 18:54:57 Ah, thought it was years earlier .... 18:55:02 http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 18:55:28 Started late december 2007, and I've taken long breaks from it. 18:56:14 Ogedei [~user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:20 #lisp 18:56:27 [sorry] 18:56:29 Is it a bad idea to combine compiler-macros and regular macros? 18:56:41 That is, allow both a function and a macro definition for the same symbol? 18:57:07 segmond: My first real lisp project started out as a disassembler for an unfamiliar CPU. You could start with, say, word frequency analysis of text files or something, which would get you started on the NLP stuff. 18:57:39 I didn't know that you were revisiting the port. What is the error count? Failing SBCL tests? Failing ANSI tests? 18:57:47 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:57:48 se 18:57:55 <_3b`> quotemstr: compiler-macro isn't a function definition 18:58:00 quotemstr: I wouldn't want to use both a macro and a compiler-macro for the same symbol, but the entire point of compiler-macros is to optimize calls to a particular function. 18:58:16 _3b`: Sure, but it doesn't conflict with one either. 18:58:19 reb: The error count is number of error conditions when compiling ir2tran.lisp. 18:58:22 nyef, good idea. 18:58:54 segmond: You can move from there to collocation analysis, HMMs, or whatever. 18:59:09 <_3b`> quotemstr: i mean macros and functions conflict with each other, but compiler-macro is separate and works with either 18:59:28 reb: So the system is still far from printing an input prompt? 18:59:32 Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-178-14-84.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:35 yeah, come to think of it, there is some word frequency analysis stuff that i got in mind. :) yeah, i guess i can start working small towards things i can use for the bigger project in the future. 19:00:02 reb: Very far. Haven't even gotten enough marbles installed to be able to build the cross-compiler, let alone anything to run on the target. 19:00:07 _3b`: It just seems far simpler to have functions and macros not conflict. So, if you wanted to put a "compiler-macro" around the + function, you could just (defun +) and (defmacro +), and have the latter punt to the former if it can't do anything sane. 19:00:43 <_3b`> quotemstr: oh, you mean use normal macros in place of compiler-macros? that sounds confusing 19:00:54 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@hugmyndahus.hir.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:00:59 Are you using real ARM hardware or an emulator? 19:01:14 I have an NSLU2 for when I get to that point. 19:01:17 _3b`: Yeah. And TBH, it seems a lot simpler and gives you the same expressive power. 19:01:37 Or I might buy something a little beefier, depends on what happens in the meantime. 19:01:54 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:02:03 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host86-174-164-109.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:02:57 hi reb! 19:03:26 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:03:30 reb: i tried building your protobufs library, but it seems to require the protobuf compiler at build-time. why is that? 19:03:49 reb: my initial impression was that your library was a lisp-only solution. is that wrong? 19:05:11 atheistfundy [~anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 19:05:56 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:56 nyef: thank for the info ... ARM architecture getting more important as the days pass ... would be awesome to have a working SBCL .... 19:06:51 Xach: The runtime is Lisp, but the protobuf file to Lisp compiler is C++, since I just added a new backend to the existing translator. 19:07:08 Eventually I'd like it to be pure Lisp. 19:07:51 Xach: The protobuf compiler is used at build time to regenerate protobuf code for some tests. 19:07:58 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:08:47 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.232.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:11:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:12:52 xinming_ [~hyy@125.109.246.89] has joined #lisp 19:13:45 segmond: I'll admit to being ensnared into Lisp by Graham, but for beginning lispers I recommend PCL _> Gentle Introduction -> Keene and PAIP (whichever first, though I recommend PAIP), -> Mopintro -> AMOP -> (maybe) On Lisp 19:14:05 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:00 p_l, oh okay. I have done, "common lisp an interactive approach", "successful lisp", then now, I'm doing PCL, On Lisp and Common Lisp the Language 2nd Edition 19:15:28 reb: oh, ok, i see 19:15:46 was thinking of doing Winston & Horn then PAIP. You think I should hold off On Lisp for now till the end? 19:15:48 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:11 On Lisp is good fiction and bed reading, but I 19:16:12 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.248.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:16:25 'm not convinced it's the best lecture for Lisp beginners 19:16:31 mathrick, why do you say that? 19:16:33 Graham's style is very questionable in places 19:16:35 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 19:16:37 Winston and Horn is cool. I don't see many recommendations for it, though. 19:16:42 well, there is style, then there is message. 19:16:57 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has left #lisp 19:17:10 The medium is the message: Graham doesn't like Common Lisp. 19:17:13 Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 19:17:22 yes, but his message is kinda fishy too. It's nice to give warm & fuzzy feelings, but what he tells you is more of a spy story than a book about CL 19:17:28 and yes, he doesn't like CL at all 19:17:40 well, he doesn't LOVE it, but he sure can live with it. 19:17:50 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:18:17 mathrick, so what would you recommend? 19:18:29 segmond: I still think it's like reading a Clancy's book for your survival camp. Surely a nice morale booster, but won't really tell you a lot about survival 19:18:32 segmond: PCL 19:18:32 I have seen "let over lambda" but it doesn't seem like it's well received... 19:18:46 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-73.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 19:18:48 LoL is on my to-read list 19:18:56 it's advanced stuff 19:19:05 I prefer RoFL 19:19:13 mathrick, so what you are saying is that if i read PCL, then i have no need for "On Lisp" because I can learn everything On Lisp covers from PCL? 19:19:21 segmond: personally I hold PCL in a very high regard, as long as you're an experienced coder in another language 19:20:02 segmond: I'm saying that you can read On Lisp safely then because it's less likely to infect you with some completely misguided notions about what Lisp is and isn't 19:20:11 segmond, I think of "On Lisp" as a long lecture on macros for uses with existing CL experience 19:20:23 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:20:33 segmond, with enough experience being as mathrick just described 19:20:40 Graham has a very quirky personal taste, and *very* strong opinions, and makes absolutely no effort to separate his opinions from objective matters 19:20:50 so beginning with Graham's books is risque 19:20:55 mathrick, he is a true lisper. :) 19:21:02 entertaining, but risky for your future career as a lisper 19:21:02 that's how lisp peeps tend to be. *ducks* 19:21:09 nyef: can you explain the comment before os_dlsym in bsd-os.c to me? 19:22:03 I'm having trouble wrangling macos' dylsym to DTRT 19:22:10 segmond: i sure hope the "younger generation" (like me) *isn't* like that. 19:22:58 asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.79] has joined #lisp 19:24:33 ehu, me too. :) 19:24:49 segmond: i'd recommend PAIP. very practical, you'll learn good lisp stuff and you'll be writing code to do fun AI quickly. 19:25:05 slyrus: Sounds like the implementation of dlsym() is supposed to be called from code within the executable text space, and not from the middle of nowhere. Probably a security measure of some sort to prevent calling dlsym() from an executable buffer overrun or something. 19:25:30 Doesn't actually explain the failure mode, though, which is a little odd. 19:26:01 ehu: In my experience, even teenage lispers tend towards *exactly* that attitude 19:27:04 ehu: strong opinions are good. Certain amount of smugness is good too. I personally don't have a problem with the attitude of most Lispers, and I'm the younger generation by all means 19:27:26 elitism, contrary to the popular (har har) opinion, is not necessarily bad 19:27:41 and being popular is not necessarily good 19:27:52 cf. PHP if you have any doubts about that 19:27:59 Still, Graham has a certain intellectual laziness to his writing, and strongly disrecommends a number of features that are actually very convenient. 19:28:12 but it is strange to be 'right', and to be shunned by most of the world, too, isn't it ? :) 19:28:14 yes, that's more of my problem with Graham 19:28:26 He even writes that, until the viaweb project, he didn't like keyword arguments. 19:28:28 koollman: not at all. It's the rule actually 19:28:39 popular things are almost never the best ones 19:28:50 Then, when he actually encountered the place where they are amazingly useful, he changed his tune. 19:29:03 mathrick: with that kind of rule, you can't separate a fool from a wise man. Both argue against the rest of the world ;) 19:29:08 once you have *anything* spreading faster than education, what you get is invariably popculture 19:29:28 koollman: who said life was going to be easy? 19:29:33 nyef: hmm... ok, that's unlikely to be the problem here then 19:29:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:29:52 Google2 [~bubble@p54AA56CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:01 mathrick: so we should prevent spreading lisp by smugness? 19:30:02 slyrus: What's the actual failure mode you're seeing? 19:30:04 the first problem was that dlsym automagically adds a #\_ to the beginning of the symbol it looks for. rather annoying. 19:30:16 ehu: certain variety of it, yes 19:30:17 now the failure is some weird corruption in make-target-2-load 19:30:30 Phoodus [foo@174-22-216-12.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:36 Ah. Some weird corruption. Lovely. 19:30:44 the kind of smugness you get when you run head first into Krystof after joining #lisp for instance 19:30:47 Last time I tracked one of those down, it turned out to be a GC bug. 19:30:59 yeah, yeah... :) I'll get better diagnostics in a moment. 19:31:07 I still think getting scolded by him is one of the best things that can happen to you as a wannabe lisper 19:31:23 (Of course, I suspected a GC bug going in... Just not where I eventually found it.) 19:31:26 srsly? 19:31:39 feel my smugness: I don't even write any lisp! 19:31:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:57 Krystof: yup! I'm eternally grateful for your yelling at me back when I joined 19:32:18 one of the problems with IRC is that it's difficult to tell if you're being sarcastic 19:32:28 if I wrote what you wrote I'd have no trouble telling that I was being so :-) 19:32:36 hehe 19:32:42 no, I'm completely serious now 19:32:56 I used to dislike you slightly before I saw the light 19:33:34 drewc and pkhuong are effective noob-stoppers too 19:34:21 slyrus pasted "failure trying to build with darwin's dlysm and friends" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111042 19:34:56 the first step was cleaning up the darwin build system a bit such that dlshim is a "feature" 19:34:58 that works 19:35:17 ... In !unintern-init-only-stuff? 19:35:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:35:47 segmond: On Lisp... I've got it, but I'm not touching it till I really need to beef up my macro-fu 19:35:58 So, how'd you get the symbol || into a package? 19:36:19 p_l, how long have you been using/learning lisp? 19:36:27 (sorry for late responses, but I'm on "let's drop connection on every request" network) 19:36:33 slyrus pasted "first half of the dlshim must die project" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111043 19:36:47 slyrus: is it surfing? 19:36:47 nyef: yeah, exactly 19:37:33 why is lisppaste voiced? 19:37:46 rmarynch [~roman@62.122.200.238] has joined #lisp 19:38:22 ehu: Because it's convenient? Or maybe it lost its devoice in a reconnect? 19:38:33 drewc: I'm getting this: Contacting host: common-lisp.net:8185 error in process sentinel: xml-rpc-request-process-buffer: Search failed: " 19:38:52 segmond: been playing around with it for nearly 3 years now, before that I've been looking into it from time to time for few years. 19:39:05 so is the lisppaste xml-rpc interface disabled? 19:39:20 leo2007: Yes. 19:39:34 leo2007: Basic status update was posted to lisppaste-devel recently. 19:39:40 so people just use the web interface? 19:41:32 Yeah. 19:42:06 And there's currently a possibility that the entire system will be shut down until someone new takes over. 19:43:17 ok, I think I need to look for alternative. 19:43:38 Or volunteer to help out? 19:45:00 fallen` [~t@vc-41-28-199-198.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:45:02 The more that volunteer the better 19:45:16 It wont be such a huge task if the burden is shared 19:45:22 *leo2007* is short of time. 19:45:29 We all are. 19:45:41 I, quite often, disappear from IRC for days on end. 19:46:17 but there are so many pastebins why not use others? 19:46:34 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:44 The unique feature of lisppaste is that it announces pastes in certain IRC channels. 19:47:00 segmond: My first contact was scheme, it wasn't till SBCL+PCL+SLIME that I actually got into Lisp (following PCL with GCL was a stupid idea...) 19:47:08 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 19:47:29 what is GCL? 19:47:54 Probably either Golden Common Lisp or GNU Common Lisp. 19:48:06 GNU CL 19:48:34 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:00 And, yes, GNU Common Lisp is by far the more likely, as Golden Common Lisp was a pre-ANSI commercial product, IIRC. 19:49:12 *_3b`* also likes the paren matching and spec links in lisppaste 19:49:16 abend [~alx@199.223.122.118] has joined #lisp 19:49:18 Small question on SBCL coding conventions: do functions which have names like '%%primitive' (starts with two percents) strictly belong to IR2 phase in the compiler? 19:49:40 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2014E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:49:48 rmarynch: They might be the so-called "funny" functions. 19:50:03 yep, why they are 'funny'? 19:50:06 There's only, what, three or so functions with that convention? 19:50:41 They're "funny" because they can only be introduced during IR1 processing, and have unusual semantics. 19:51:01 I have seen only %%primitive so far. Also there are %catch and %throw, but with a single percent, as you see 19:51:07 nyef: after this setback lisppaste is going to lose a lot of users, unfortunately. 19:51:16 %%nip-values 19:51:24 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 19:51:35 Krystof: The defknown for that (fndb.lisp) only has one %. 19:52:17 hmm... perhaps I was bitten by an unrelated change here... 19:52:29 there's %%segment%%. 19:52:37 but that's quite another sort of weirdness 19:52:41 Is this a general CL convention, to mark internal stuff with % or %%? Or it is SBCL-specific approach? 19:52:53 General convention, actually. 19:53:30 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 19:53:39 The TI Explorers had % as a prefix on "unsafe" functions, and %% as a prefix on certain VM-level system constants such as tag bit locations. 19:53:50 current-segment and current-vop have some large number of %s, yes 19:53:51 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:54:22 The assembler and disassembler have some completely insane bits in them. 19:54:37 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-172-187.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:54:51 thanks! I also see in other projects, the guys use fun, fun-1, fun-2, and the latter two are internal. Is this suitable too? 19:55:16 or it is more a way to split large forms? 19:55:45 It feels to me like a bad way to factor a large function or set of functions. 19:55:54 nyef: what does volunteering for lisppaste entail? A link to the announce if it explains it would help too 19:56:04 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.232.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:56:15 mathrick: It hasn't really been worked out in any detail, so far as I'm aware. 19:56:22 rmarynch: %foo is pretty common 19:56:34 nyef: clear, thanks. 19:57:17 -!- rmarynch [~roman@62.122.200.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:57:30 usually % means internal bits. Personally I use the convention that slots are named %FOO and accessors FOO 19:58:07 which means only accessors can be exported without exposing slots, and makes it harder to use one when you meant the other 19:58:15 I use the convention that I name my slots and accessors what I want, export the accessors, and users aren't supposed to hit the slots directly. 19:58:43 (That is, -any- use of with-slots on an instance of a class defined in another file is bad style.) 19:58:50 nyef: I know, but I've been bitten before by myself writing WITH-SLOTS instead of WITH-ACCESSORS 19:59:11 Helps to not export the slot names, then, I guess. 19:59:28 I also tend to use non-keyword initargs sometimes. 19:59:46 Well, *I* name all my slots #.(GENSYM) . Beat that! 19:59:57 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:00 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:01 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-98-118-48-156.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 20:00:10 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:11 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:13 nyef: doesn't that make things harder to get right? 20:00:14 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:19 delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:00:29 chandler: I have examples which say otherwise. Is this a recent change? 20:00:31 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:48 nyef: What, the sarcasm? No, that's been a persistent problem of mine for years. 20:01:03 why, yes, it was an unrelated change that was the culprit... that's what I get for cargo-culting... 20:01:18 -!- moeffju is now known as moeffju[afk] 20:01:19 mathrick: Perhaps a tiny bit, but whatever. 20:01:24 chandler: Heh. Fair enough. 20:01:38 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-98-118-48-156.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:21 chandler: do you recall why we have a darwin_langinfo? 20:03:06 chandler: Just as long as you don't need multiple source files :) 20:03:59 slyrus: I dimly recall that langinfo used to return a ISO-8859-1 ctype even when UTF-8 was sensible, and that in fact there's hardly any reason to use anything *but* UTF-8 on OS X. 20:04:09 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2007DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:13 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:05:02 hmm... I haven't the faintest idea what that I should do now that I have that information :) 20:05:48 Take it out and see what breaks. 20:06:12 yeah, that's a good idea. the problem before was that I only took out half of it. 20:06:24 oh, and I want to finish removing dlshim before I try to remove that. 20:06:39 Oh, yes. That too. 20:06:40 so... what version of macos is the earliest we still claim to support and does it have a working dlsym? 20:06:48 I don't think anyone cares much about 10.3 support anymore. 20:06:48 Hey, does anyone actually -care- that TRACE :ENCAPSULATE NIL is broken on x86oid darwin? 20:07:05 nyef: it would be useful to trace local functions. 20:07:05 rmarynch [~roman@62.122.200.238] has joined #lisp 20:07:25 pkhuong: Fair enough, but is it really important? 20:07:26 well, the shim _should_ (and does for the moment) work as an optional build-time feature (and the shimless one still doesn't quite work...) 20:08:02 sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-56.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:13 slyrus: I believe the shim isn't necessary as of 10.4, and in fact 10.4 is the earliest release that can be sensibly built for on 10.6 anyway. 20:08:15 I mean, the analysis was done a while ago, half the work in the fix performed, there's between one and three steps remaining, and no confirmation on which, and it's been a high-import bug for ages. 20:09:14 It's probably a problem with the people who know about the feature not using it. 20:09:56 the x86/darwin team has been rather unproductive of late :) 20:10:00 I'm seriously considering knocking some of the high-importance bugs down to medium. 20:10:46 slyrus: The SBCL team as a whole has been rather unproductive of late. Twelve commits has to be a new low for a release. 20:12:42 I blame Krystof having a real job :) 20:13:28 That's just one person. How many committers are there? 20:13:41 Isn't that a confusion that %primitives is translated into %%primitives during IR1, but %%allocate-closures is translated into %allocate-closures? This breaks the initial naming assumptions... 20:14:03 nyef: we could use the relative inactivity as evidence of stability and generate the perception of progress by branding it 1.1! 20:14:22 Eek. 20:14:55 I'd ask if we can get a clean sweep on the test suite first, but I know that that's unlikely to happen. 20:15:09 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:15:22 I think we have a working build here. yay. 20:15:49 How about not having any high or critical import bugs when we clock the major or minor version number? 20:16:06 nyef: what should be improved with SBCL tests? 20:16:19 I think it's the code that the tests exercise :) 20:16:44 Yeah, there are two failures total right now on both x86/linux and x86-64/linux. 20:16:56 unexpected failures? 20:17:02 Both in packages.impure.lisp, both :fails-on :sbcl. 20:17:08 No, expected failures. 20:17:26 What data structure would you guys use for a generic tree-walker? 20:17:36 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:17:49 quotemstr: closure :) 20:17:51 That is, if a Lisp implemented wanted to expose to user code what the special forms are and which positions are evaluated, what would be a good way to do that? 20:18:05 yay! (LOAD-SHARED-OBJECT "/usr/X11R6/lib/libfreetype.6.dylib") works now. 20:18:11 The situation on linux/ppc is something like four debug.impure.lisp failures, four or five dynamic-extent failures, and room.test.sh dies. 20:18:16 slyrus: Congratulations. 20:18:18 I can go to work now. 20:18:19 thanks 20:18:38 DIE DLSHIM DIE!!!! 20:18:41 quotemstr: I wouldn't bother: The implementation is required to provide a macroexpansion for any special form not on the list of special forms in the spec. 20:18:54 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:18:54 nyef: But sometimes those macroexpansions suck. 20:19:34 ephcon [~ephcon@199.223.122.118] has joined #lisp 20:19:45 I would also argue that a codewalker is a sign of a bad design in the first place... or a sign of a compiler. 20:19:52 nyef: ITERATE. 20:20:05 As I said, a sign of a bad design in the first place. 20:20:12 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:20:18 You're the only one I've ever talked to who's claimed that iterate is badly designed. :-P 20:20:24 a sign of a bad language, maybe. :) 20:20:46 If you're using a code-walker, and you're not a compiler, you're doing it wrong. 20:20:50 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-24-178.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 Macros are compilers that were dropped on their heads as children. 20:21:39 nyef: why do you say iterate is badly designed? 20:21:43 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:22:08 mathrick: Because it uses a code-walker. :-P 20:22:50 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:23:05 well you've opened that worm of cans the moment you allow macros in the language 20:24:14 ...nearly all uses of macros don't require clients to implement code-walkers 20:26:27 Well, in many cases you can use the native code-walker via things like macrolet, etc. 20:26:48 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 20:27:06 foom: that's only because the built-in special-cased tools serve the need appropriately 20:27:14 but macros are, by all means, compilers 20:27:17 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.79] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:27:31 so if you allow macros, at some point somebody will need a code walker 20:28:00 unless you want to be like java and start being hysterical once people do "dangerous" things 20:28:02 mathrick: and probably your language should provide one or the facility to write one that works. It's a shame CL doesn't. 20:28:13 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.129.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:28:27 quotemstr: I have to second nyef's position on codewalked extensions. 20:28:27 At some point anticipation of future needs will always fail. 20:28:31 foom: probably, but I think it's telling that no-one's written a perfect and universal codewalker yet 20:29:02 Fair enough. 20:29:02 quotemstr: have you looked at macroexpand-dammit? 20:29:06 So, is it iterate or CL that is badly designed here? 20:29:12 mathrick: sticking to a simple pattern of expansion makes it easier to preserve modularity and have extensions cooperate automatically. 20:29:14 mathrick: Unless I'm mistaken, the reason it's hard is because you have to anticipate all the crazy things the implementations do. 20:29:18 Zhivago: both, I suspect 20:29:20 mathrick: That's the first I've heard of it. 20:29:27 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:29:29 marioxcc [~user@201.132.49.100] has joined #lisp 20:29:30 It's huge! 20:29:35 pkhuong: but sometimes you have non-simple needs! 20:29:44 quotemstr: really? It's a single file 20:30:03 Or let me put it this way: it's larger than I expected it to be. 20:30:15 mathrick: then don't pretend your language is CL. 20:30:16 foom: possibly, I guess it *would* be easier if it was the implementation that had to provide it 20:30:23 much like with environments 20:30:48 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 20:30:53 can i get in on the code-walker hate? hate those things! 20:30:59 mathrick: no, you would still have issues when interleaving codewalked extensions. 20:31:01 pkhuong: I think CL needs to move too, the existing modularity tools are not sufficient for macros 20:31:45 Life is easier when your lisp doesn't support macro environments. 20:31:49 although I'm not sure anyone has invented any better ones yet 20:31:53 kinda like monads 20:32:44 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:33:40 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-56.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:33:59 sepult` [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:09 Do SBCL developers use this approach to analyze IR1 graphs? Are resulting graphs really detailed enough to understand them (look at the end of the conversation)? - http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/2b1713e1f5ac8411/5a310157c9690753?lnk=gst&q=python#5a310157c9690753 20:35:14 I think about merging that code to try it out 20:35:50 rmarynch: I insert break statements in key places and use my imagination. 20:35:55 mathrick: What kind of modularity tools are you looking for? 20:36:53 pkhuong: I do the same :) But for large functions the general picture is too huge... 20:37:08 chandler: unsure, because likely they don't exist yet. But something that would let me, say, embed CL-PEREC's query compiler invocation inside an ITER form without running into ugly issues 20:37:43 francogrex [~user@4.47-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:38:18 and something that would let me write the famous DEFSLOT macro everyone attempts to write at first :) 20:38:44 I guess I'm not familiar with either of those issues. 20:38:47 *nyef* has never even -thought- about writing a DEFSLOT macro. 20:39:08 And isn't the ITER vs. CL-PEREC thing a case of non-composability of code-walkers? 20:39:10 chandler: something like hygienic macros for CL special forms (and a pseudo special form for function calls) might be good enough. Hygienic because if my extension's LET expands into a LET, it shouldn't trigger recursive expansion. 20:39:35 chandler: (defclass foo () ((defslot foo) (defslot bar))) ;; Takes care of :initarg, :initform, :accessor etc. 20:39:42 Why not just go all the way to hygiene? 20:39:52 hi what is the easiest way to change a date string like "12May2008" to universal time value 20:40:03 chandler: well, it's hygiene + allowing macros on CL special operators. 20:40:16 -!- toxygen [~toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:40:36 marthrick: What happens when you want say a :reader instead of :accessor 20:40:45 nyef: sort-of, yes. It's easily solved with an extra LET, but you need to be aware of the plumbing to understand how to fix it. Which is why I say the tools we have are not powerful enough to let us write really modular macros 20:40:53 pkhuong: That's the kind of problem that's solved by a module system, once you have hygiene, isn't it? 20:41:15 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:41:29 chandler: not sure... and we're starting to drift away from CL and into r6rs-land ;) 20:41:37 I should warn you that I've been spending quite a lot of time writing Scheme lately. :-) 20:42:16 toxygen [toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 I should look into what schemers do one of these days. It's all heavily PhD land, but that's likely where a useful new abstraction will come from 20:43:46 -!- rmarynch [~roman@62.122.200.238] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:43:54 -!- Google2 [~bubble@p54AA56CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: adios] 20:44:05 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:27 and another simpler question pls: I am trying to use the iterate macro inside anothe package but I get: PARENSCRIPT> I is not of type LIST (error), how to fix that? 20:44:29 I'm not sure it's all PhD land, but this is probably a discussion for somewhere other than #lisp. 20:44:43 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid 20:45:16 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:45:24 (defclass foo () (#.(defslot bar)) <--- not that you'd ever want to do that, but lisp supports it just fine. 20:45:37 chandler: I'm always interested in applying that to CL, so in this way I think it's on topic. But it might be a bit vague to be usefu 20:45:55 drewc: but it kills the whole point of macros as a syntactic abstraction 20:45:56 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 20:46:28 also DEFSLOT would have to be a function in this case 20:46:30 mathrick: Umm... -what-? 20:46:34 mathrick: huh? 20:47:35 You've got a case where a macro defines some specific syntax instead of evaluating as lisp code. You want a different syntax. You either write a new wrapper macro (DEFCLASS*), or you use read-time-eval to spit out the form required. 20:47:36 if I have to say #.(), it's not syntactic or abstracted anymore. I have to put these ugly things by hand 20:48:06 nyef: or a reader macro (: 20:48:11 nyef: but we started with discussing modularity. Today's macros do not play well with each other 20:48:14 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:48:35 Right, right. Or a reader macro. 20:49:54 they're much less advanced than functions when it comes to modularity. It's no problem to have a function piece its result from bits supplied by other functions, but with macros it's very hard to do. You can pretty much only be inside one macro at a time, or bad things start to happen 20:50:23 nonsense 20:51:12 Why do we not have complains like this about DOLIST? 20:51:14 drewc: what macros can you point me at that allow other macros to be plugged in and always do the right thing? 20:51:15 A good example is nesting anaphoric macros... 20:51:22 ... which you don't normally do anything. 20:51:23 I know one such macro, it's called ITERATE 20:51:36 and it has its problems 20:51:39 mathrick: Didn't we cover this under "code-walkers are bad"? 20:52:03 quotemstr: That leads to the separate "anaphor in programming is usually a bad idea". 20:52:04 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:24 mathrick: iterate is a code walker... they are evil... what is your point and what does this have to do with 'plugging in' macros, and what exactly does that mean? 20:52:24 But incredibly seductive! 20:52:26 nyef: no, what you want to say is that "today's solution to this problem, which is usually codewalkers, is insufficiently advanced" 20:52:49 quotemstr: anaphors are almost always a horrible idea... name things, it's good for you. 20:52:54 mathrick: What I want to say is quite a bit less polite than that, actually. :-P 20:52:57 well since iterate is mentioned... maybe errr 20:53:48 hehe, I had never seen #. until today, now it's all the rage in discussion 20:54:04 drewc: you might want legitimately to allow other macros to run during your own expansion, and have the results predictable and well-behaved. Codewalkers are clearly not enough to get it, we know this much. But that just proves that they're not enough, not that it's unreasonable to have such a need 20:54:15 Guthur: Comes up from time to time. One trick for conditional compilation is #.`(...) 20:54:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:31 Or #.(let (...) `(...)) 20:54:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:43 Erik Naggum's signed (by EN, not PG) "On Lisp" is a cool 200GBP. 20:55:15 mathrick: what do you mean 'macros running during your own expansion'? 20:55:22 For when you need more complicated dispatching than simple feature expressions. 20:55:22 Xach: that's a fair amount of legal tender 20:55:34 Perhaps I should sign my lisp books too... 20:56:22 nyef: I'll have to investigate it a little more. 20:56:49 pjb``: the unsigned 3rd ed is only 140 20:57:06 Guthur: Another something you might try in SBCL is (sb-int:sap-int 0) and look at the result. 20:57:16 mathrick: It's clearly possible to write a macro that can be extended by other macros; ITERATE is an example of this. (Ignore the code-walking nonsense for purposes of this discussion.) 20:57:18 drewc: iterate needs to be able to decide when subforms are its own forms it should compile, and for that it needs to expand macros which are embedded into it. Which means it has to expand other macros as a part of its own expansion, which is the root of the issue, because this is messy in CL 20:57:28 (Or was that SB-SYS:SAP-INT? I forget.) 20:57:33 nyef: int-sap? 20:57:41 Err... right. 20:57:45 *nyef* blushes. 20:57:46 chandler: but that's the whole point! ITERATE has bugs related to the codewalking it uses to be extensible 20:57:57 Clearly, I've forgotten how to use SAPs. 20:58:18 it's extensible because it walks the code, it has bugs because it walks the code 20:58:42 nonsense.. it's extensible because it's extensible, it walks the code because it's a poor design 20:59:11 drewc: how would you have it know which parts to compile then without walking? 20:59:16 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:08 i don't have to, that's what the compiler is for. 21:00:30 mathrick: To take the example of a simple, extensible DEFCLASS*, one would look at the car of each slot form and check to see if it has been defined as a slot macro (in some hash table in the macro-expansion environment, presumably). 21:00:41 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@199.223.122.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:34 mathrick: iterate is a poor design, IMO, and creates more problems than it solves. There are better ways to solve whatever problem it is solving that does not involve a code walker. 21:01:57 The real problem here is that macros don't do pattern matching and are disjoint. 21:02:09 well I had to unintern "for" in the Parenscript package 21:02:40 If you could say (defmacro foo (&rest xxx) ...) (defmacro foo (bar &rest xxx) ...), then much of the problem would disappear. 21:03:01 You could have default matchers which could be overriden for specific cases. 21:03:07 Is there a convenient way of making an array into a list? 21:03:24 If not in CL then maybe alexandria? 21:03:30 Guthur: COERCE 21:03:53 drewc: ah, cheers 21:04:01 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:06 guthur: You might want to use a displaced array to make a one dimensional array view first. 21:04:25 Otherwise, perhaps loop with collect might be useful. 21:04:27 or (map 'list #'identity array), or (loop for item in array collect item) ... 21:04:28 Zhivago: That brings to mind interesting questions about the order of matching, or would it use some notion of the most specific match? 21:04:33 I had the loop collect 21:04:38 Was too verbose 21:04:50 to verbose for what? 21:04:59 For me, hehe 21:05:01 drewc: *sigh*. Look, I'm not saying a codewalker is the perfect solution. In fact I'm saying it isn't. But I'm also saying that I don't know of, and CL fails to provide, better tools to solve it. But you constantly handwave it with "bad design" without saying what you'd consider a good design 21:05:27 ephcon [~ephcon@199.223.122.118] has joined #lisp 21:05:31 chandler: I think it needs to be 'most recently established in scope matching' 21:05:57 So, basically each new macro would rebind FOO? 21:06:13 chandler: Well, the previous bindings would be visible to non-matchers. 21:06:13 mathrick: well, look at, say, LOOP. Solves the same problems iterate does, has extensible implementations, and does not require a code walker. 21:06:33 chandler: but in case of ITERATE, which has 10x as many places you might want to stuff macros into as DEFCLASS, it's getting insane. You'd have to write an adapter for every possible pair of ITERATE place x other macro. That's not feasible 21:06:59 drewc: Yes, but loop does that by having two different sublanguages -- loop and some macros for intertwingled code. 21:07:04 drewc: I haven't seen an extensible implementation, care to point me at one? 21:07:17 sbcl's, for example 21:07:23 drewc: e.g., you can't use collect except at the surface level. 21:07:29 drewc: and what does it use then, if not code walking? 21:07:39 mathrick: a parser? 21:07:51 it's not documented and you have to guess quite hard, but there's a protocol for defining new loop keywords and their effects 21:08:07 actually, that's not true 21:08:13 drewc: by which you mean what exactly and how is it different from a walker? 21:08:14 I think all you can do is add new loop paths 21:08:39 Is there a liberally-licensed, good, and extensible LOOP implementation? 21:08:40 mathrick: a walker changes lisp code into other lisp code. Loop's DSL changes loop code into lisp code 21:08:40 mathrick: loop delegates all of its language changing mechanisms to macrolet, iirc. 21:08:46 Zhivago: collect isn't such a good example, though. 21:08:49 the main argument of iterate over loop is that you can add keywords and extend the syntax 21:08:49 quotemstr: MIT loop. 21:08:55 Krystof: I read that the CL LOOP was based on the original, extensible LOOP, but I've never seen that one 21:09:00 mathrick: Everything else is analysis of top-level loop arguments. 21:09:06 *quotemstr* wonders whether his Lisp is close enough to CL for MIT loop to work without much change. 21:09:17 pkhuong: What would be a better example? 21:09:19 mathrick: as I say, sbcl's loop is extensible, at least for iterating over new things 21:09:35 it's how sbcl implements loop for x being each element in sequence, for example 21:09:36 Zhivago: but that introduced the drawbacks you mentioned. I can COLLECT at any point inside ITERATE, but not in LOOP 21:09:36 mathrick: I'm really not sure what kind of general solution exists to this problem. It seems to me that each macro must shoulder the burden of defining the interface by which it can be sensibly extended. 21:10:03 I also have ... for each line in stream and ... for (x y) being the values of (form) 21:10:08 Zhivago: yeah, the not nesting collects is a drawback of the approach... i think you could easily emulate it with a (macrolet ((:collect (thing)... somewhere 21:10:12 somewhere in my lisp/tmp directory 21:10:14 -!- abend [~alx@199.223.122.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:31 chandler: I don't know if any exist today. But if not, they should, and that's a matter for research, not saying "your problem is invalid and your mom dropped you too many times anyway" :) 21:11:02 mathrick: Sure. 21:11:38 mathrick: I don't think I quite said that... 21:12:15 Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727564.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:12:18 Zhivago: something that plays with control flow might be harder to implement without a codewalker. 21:12:19 chandler: no, but drewc is implying that strongly 21:12:23 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:12:33 mathrick: i think you've demonstrated that you don't entirely understand the issues at hand. 21:12:36 mathrick: I'm just having trouble envisioning the general solution to this problem, and so far I haven't seen any hints (beyond Zhivago's fairly good suggestion of combining multiple separately-defined pattern matchers). 21:12:40 pkhuong: (NEXT-ITERATION)? 21:12:48 though that's just a FLET I think 21:13:17 chandler: most open research problems have that property. And macros and modularity are very much an open research problem 21:13:25 is there a package somewhere that does URL disassembly well? 21:13:25 just look at scheme 21:13:33 + 21:13:34 Shaftoe_: PURI? 21:13:51 thanks 21:14:26 mathrick: I suppose the broader issue is that I don't think you've defined the problem well enough to describe a solution. :-) 21:14:34 drewc: I think you insist on misrepresenting what I have and haven't said, and I give up trying to correct that because it's pointless 21:14:59 mathrick: it's not your problem that is invalid, or that you're an idiot, but rather that i don't think your extrapolations don't necessarily follow the evidence 21:15:16 (man, some of the stuff on cliki is horribly out of date. Anyone know where Puri can be found?) 21:15:50 drewc: okay, lemme rephrase a bit then 21:15:57 mathrick: yikes man... read over what i have written here and tell me how i've misrepresented anything you've said. 21:16:48 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/2010031700]] 21:16:59 (nevar mind, I'll just use the asdf package) 21:17:57 Zhivago: Combining multiple, separately defined pattern matchers also brings up a problem that I haven't seen solved well (consistently) in either Common Lisp or Scheme, namely combining multiple separate forms in a scope into a single declaration. 21:18:53 Shaftoe_: clbuild should be able to grab it fine 21:20:09 guthur annotated #111038 "Another note" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111038#1 21:20:21 felideon: yeah, I was just going for the "official" homepage of PURI to get the latest version. But links on that homepage are all dead, and the Allegro page is a renaissance painting of a 404 sign. 21:20:29 -!- fallen` [~t@vc-41-28-199-198.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [] 21:20:30 Similar to the last issue, can't use the #. this time though 21:20:38 so I'm just going to use whatever was provided as the asdf package 21:20:42 drewc: ITERATE is one example of an extensive macro of the general form of "you have a cut-out shape of the surface language with a number of placeholders where you put your own CL code, which then gets compiled to some other Lisp code". But in addition to just moving boxes around, it also augments the language the inner code can be written in. And that's a problem, because if inner code happens to use the facility of CL called macros, you have 21:20:42 to interpret them somehow 21:20:53 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-24-178.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:21:08 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-3-105.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:21:20 ITERATE today uses a code walker, which demonstrably fails if the inner macro is also of a nontrivial sort 21:22:37 Guthur: #.(#\tab) seems... wrong. 21:22:53 chandler: Only way to remove a note about deleted code 21:23:04 drewc: but I submit that doesn't mean the idea behind providing something in the general shape of ITERATE is invalid. I think this means the tools we have are not expressive enough, because for each piece of problematic code, I can always give a sensible and consistent correct interpretation 21:23:13 mathrick: why do you have to interpret the 'inner code'? 21:23:32 chandler: nyef and/or _3b`: could explain the issue better than me 21:23:35 Guthur: Yes, but it can't work. 21:23:44 drewc: because otherwise you can't distinguish iterate's COLLECT from any other unrelated COLLECT that should be left alone 21:23:47 chandler: But it does 21:24:01 I have a vector I need to iterate over as if it were a list. E.g. (loop for i in #(x y z) ...) as if it were (loop for i in (x y z) ...). What's the closest thing to this? 21:24:03 mathrick: you could if you, say, macroleted :collect 21:24:08 or any other of the forms you augment CL with inside ITERATE 21:24:09 Guthur: How? #\tab isn't valid in function position. 21:24:45 drewc: but ITERATE doesn't just provide a constant interpretation of COLLECT. It has to see it to be able to move things in the correct positions 21:24:47 chandler: Oh terribly sorry, my mistake 21:24:50 Typo 21:24:55 aidalgol: Use `across' instead of `in'. 21:25:02 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 21:25:10 drewc: you can't just MACROLET it because the expansion isn't constant 21:25:21 chandler: Thanks! 21:25:24 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:43 guthur annotated #111038 "Typo removed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111038#2 21:25:50 mathrick: that makes no sense... you can nest macrolets and define your syntax in such a way as to allow trivial compilation 21:27:11 drewc: COLLECT isn't the only form, it's probably the most trivial one in fact. But a lot of what is adjacent inside the ITERATE form ends up in wildly different places in the compiled code 21:27:32 http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Problems-with-Code-Movement.html#Problems-with-Code-Movement 21:27:40 it has a chapter dedicated to this 21:27:41 mathrick: we all agree iterate is poorly designed.. non? 21:27:53 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@199.223.122.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:57 chandler: Sorry, it was due to the fact I was pasting a macro expansion which had eval'd the #.(string #\tab) to a string literal, but I wanted the original form there for clarity, hehe I failed 21:28:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:28:13 drewc: non, because the only "alternative" syntax that supposedly solves it is LOOP, which is vastly inferior 21:28:19 that doesn't mean the tools that were used to build it are themselves poor. 21:28:29 ITERATE only sucks in edge cases, LOOP is horrible always 21:28:33 why is loop inferior to ITERATE? 21:28:44 see, that's the kind of absolute bullshit that makes me tune out 21:28:47 drewc: so are you arguing the set of tools CL provides is perfect and couldn't possibly be improved? 21:29:04 mathrick: how the fuck did you get that from what i've stated? 21:29:17 mathrick: you know what? i'm not interested anymore. cheers 21:29:28 drewc: LOOP solves problems with CL by inventing magic syntax that isn't CL. That's not a solution, that's silly copout 21:29:48 ITERATE uses CL syntax now? 21:30:03 I always took LOOP to be an instruction to "go forth and DSL". 21:30:04 that doesn't mean the tools that were used to build it are themselves poor. <-- how else am I supposed to interpret it? 21:30:17 i was pretty sure it invents a magic syntax that is so far from being lisp that it requires a code walker to compile 21:30:28 -!- Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727564.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 21:30:36 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:42 I say "they're not sufficient for everything you might want to say", you say "it doesn't mean they're poor". So logically you say they're enough for everything you might ever want to say, ergo they're perfect 21:30:58 drewc: it's much more CL-ish than LOOP 21:30:59 mathrick: your basic logic skills are pretty fucking weak 21:31:07 and behaves much more CL-ish too 21:31:08 drewc: Escalating isn't helping. 21:31:25 chandler: i do not like having words put in my mouth 21:31:34 if it defines COLLECT, I can collect arbitrarily deep, just like with any other binding in CL 21:32:18 drewc: so PLEASE tell me what I'm supposed to interpret it as, because you keep spewing bullshit about bad design and refusing to tell us what is good design then 21:32:34 drewc: I don't blame you, but it still doesn't help. 21:32:49 if you disagree with the need to improve the tools, then you think they're perfect as is 21:32:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:33:09 mathrick: saying something is not poor is not at all equivalent to saying it is perfect... not in any way. 21:33:14 or sufficient, or adequate, or whatever you want to call it 21:33:26 Anyway, I suppose I ought not to drop into the channel after a prolonged absence and get into the middle of things. 21:33:31 i also don't disagree that our tools can be improved, never once said i did 21:33:36 -!- chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has left #lisp 21:34:17 Look, you guys scared chandler 21:34:18 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:34:39 drewc: then why do you deny when I say we need better tools for macro modularity? I'm not trying to be rude now, I honestly don't understand 21:35:12 ITERATE is just one of a family of macros that provide CL + benefits as the language inside them 21:35:22 CL-PEREC has other macros of the kind 21:35:31 -!- Ogedei [~user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:42 they work well enough in isolation, but shit goes south when you try to use them together 21:35:46 and i think they are both crap. 21:35:50 for that reason 21:35:51 which to me means we need better ways to express them 21:36:03 how about not walking code! 21:36:25 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:25 drewc: how about you give a tool that isn't codewalking then? Or at least admit the need for one? 21:36:56 drewc: "not Y" isn't usually a useful answer to "better way to do X" 21:36:56 i have never needed ITERATE, so i can't comment on that need. 21:37:03 drewc: codewalking is goddamn implementation detail. The outer shape of ITERATE doesn't change if you reimplement it to run on pixie dust 21:37:21 mathrick: that's exactly my point, it's the outer shape of iterate that i object to 21:37:35 drewc: so what about CL-PEREC's SELECT? 21:38:06 *luis* hugs prc:select 21:38:38 i don't like it either, to be honest. My SELECT is a function that follows normal lisp evaluation rules. 21:39:36 but "I don't like it" is not a constructive answer. You might want to provide a delimited environment in which the language is CL + some additions for any number of reasons 21:40:11 say, an optimising matrix algebra package or whatever 21:40:45 why does it have to pretend to be look like CL if it's not? 21:41:08 ITERATE goes through a lot of hoops to try and look 'lispy', and fails completely at transparency because of it. 21:41:25 because looking different from CL is even worse and forces you to write extra infrastructure, which is precisely what macros should let you avoid 21:41:33 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:41 macros are teeny tiny compilers piggybacking on top of the CL 21:42:05 now i'm confused 21:42:21 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:42:22 macros are compilers from some specific language to CL 21:42:30 that's not what i'm confused about 21:42:46 because they get most of what they need to do compilation from the CL they're embedded in, they can be tiny 21:42:57 i'm confused about the conclusion that "looking different from CL is even worse and forces you to 21:42:57 write extra infrastructure, which is precisely what macros should 21:42:57 let you avoid" 21:43:00 yikes! 21:43:05 sorry bout the bad past 21:43:07 paste 21:43:38 drewc: I don't see why ITERATE should look different from CL if what it wants to be is CL + extra vocabulary pertaining to iteration 21:43:41 I'm not really sure why iterate requires a code-walker. 21:43:59 Do I need to compare the names of two symbols to determine if they are the same, or is there a comparison function for symbols? 21:44:02 it seems naively that it could be done by expanding iter to have a few macrolets 21:44:06 it fails at being transparent *in certain edge cases*, but that doesn't mean the idea is wrong. It *is* CL + stuff 21:44:17 foom: my neither, i've been trying to figure that out since this started actually. 21:44:19 aidalgol: it looks at the context 21:45:17 mathrick: I don't understand. 21:45:17 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:35 http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Problems-with-Code-Movement.html#Problems-with-Code-Movement 21:45:46 look at the very first example 21:45:47 -!- francogrex [~user@4.47-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:46:08 what was the example that came up recently? someting like (iter ... (sum (count #'evenp list))) 21:46:27 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:38 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178.223.157.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:47:04 mathrick: I want this ([what goes here?] x 'symbol) to tell me if x is the symbol 'symbol. 21:47:07 Krystof: that miscompiles? 21:47:20 I understand Lisp loops. 21:47:26 aidalgol: EQ 21:47:37 Okay, so, in the first example. why does that require a codewalker? 21:47:40 Using with-open-file, is there a way to read /proc/meminfo with that? I'm getting a length of 0 when I'm doing it, and would prefer treating it like a read only file if possible. 21:47:42 just to tell the user that they screwed up? 21:47:44 aidalgol: sorry, I misread your question 21:47:47 mathrick: i'd say the fact that iterate allows that first example at all is poor design on ITERATE's part 21:48:16 mathrick: Thanks! I was trying Elisp functions. Did not get me far. 21:48:44 aidalgol: elisp has eq too :) 21:48:45 according to the message I vaguely read somewhere 21:48:58 So, why does (loop for i across #('a 'b 'c 'b) count (eq i 'b)) evaluate to 0, instead of 2? 21:49:15 mathrick: also, In my opinion, all iterate keywords should be :keywords.. that would make it a lot less confusing 21:49:19 mathrick: I thought it was equv? of something like that. 21:49:25 Maybe that's Scheme... 21:49:35 drewc: but why should it necessarily be poor design. CL allows me to say things like that, does that mean CL is poorly designed? 21:49:58 aidalgol: that's scheme if it ends with ? 21:50:00 mathrick: CL allows you to say things like what? 21:50:15 mathrick: can you explain how that example show a codewalker is required? Is it just to emit a warning that the user probably screwed up? 21:50:16 drewc: (let ((foo bar)) (some form here)) 21:50:26 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:51:08 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:31 foom: ITERATE needs to know that INITIALLY is in a lexical context in which x is bound. But it doesn't do it currently and thus it miscompiles the form, ie. ITERATE's semantics differ from these expected from ordinary CL code 21:51:44 mathrick: i don't see the relevance... CL allows it, iterate due to poor design makes (let ((foo bar)) (initially (some code here))) into (progn (initially (some code here)) (let ((foo bar)))) 21:52:13 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:52:27 drewc: I think the point is broader than "initially". many clauses emit initial code other than initially 21:52:36 weird, nm, I got it to work.I was trying to find the file length of /proc/meminfo, and that didn't work for getting a length (other than 0), I can just readline it 21:52:40 drewc: 1) why does an edge case necessarily mean "poor design" 2) how would you solve this, while keeping all the other functionality in ITERATE intact? 21:52:59 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:22 fsmunoz [~fsmunoz@a81-84-225-153.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:53:36 drewc: you want to solve it with a MACROLET. What definition would you give to it that resulted in code being moved to another place? 21:53:40 mathrick: i would make it an error to have an (:INITIALLY ...) form in the loop body, 21:54:37 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:58 (defvar *move*) (let (*move*) (compile nil (macrolet ((move-this-form (&body form) 21:55:10 drewc: fair enough, lemme cook up another example for you then 21:55:12 (push form *move*) 21:55:22 drewc: again, "initially" is just a simple example.... 21:55:55 drewc: it's not worth much to concentrate on it, since there's many other clauses which need to have initial behavior *and* in-context behavior. 21:56:19 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 21:56:35 foom: i can do that too... you don't need a code walker to walk code when you know the names of your operators in advance... 21:56:43 you can use macrolets 21:57:52 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-201.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:12 Why does (loop for i across #('a 'b 'c 'b) count (eq i 'b)) evaluate to 0, instead of 2? 21:58:22 -!- pluto12345 [~carcola@unaffiliated/pluto12345] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:59:19 b is not (quote b) 22:00:15 Try #(a b c d) 22:00:49 Ah, thanks! 22:01:35 ephcon [~ephcon@174-25-127-51.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:45 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:52 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:15 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:22 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-027-074.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:11 Kizaru [~plaz@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:35 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:10:52 There are other loop replacements. If ITERATE doesn't cut it, use some other? 22:12:45 Yay! ccl fixes the expt inaccuracy. 22:12:57 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:13:21 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-98-118-48-156.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 22:14:24 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:15:25 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-105-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:38 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 22:23:49 mathrick pasted "ITERATE + SELECT" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111048 22:23:55 drewc: there 22:24:18 sorry it took so long, I had to do something and then I needed to find it to avoid misrepresenting things 22:26:00 -!- atheistfundy [~anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has left #lisp 22:27:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:00 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:30:31 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229111173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:31:51 mathrick: what am i supposed to be looking at? 22:33:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:35:37 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:35:39 drewc: the enclosing LET form. It's unused, needed so that SELECT knows that CALENDAR is a lexical binding. But the one it actually ends up using is the one defined within ITERATE, which is not visible during the expansion 22:35:47 *needed only 22:36:12 why did iterate need a code-walker again? 22:36:54 madnificent: I'm not insisting on a code-walker. But there need to be tools to provide what ITERATE tries to provide 22:37:06 why does select need to know that calendar is a lexical binding at compile time? 22:37:37 mathrick: is iterate implemented by using a code-walker? (that's my question, if so... I'm surprised, otherwise... I'm wondering where I got that idea) 22:37:47 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: You don't want to know.] 22:38:50 iter looks very much like loop with parenthesis tagged on 22:38:59 Just a superficial opinion 22:39:27 madnificent: I think it has a limited code-walker, yeah 22:39:49 Guthur: it goes deeper, the aforementioned ability to COLLECT everywhere being just one example 22:39:58 mathrick: i'm afraid i'm not at all sure what you are trying to demonstrate with that code example... why do you even need iterate there? 22:39:58 Guthur: it's more extensible, from my pov, that's the big plus 22:40:02 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-210.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:10 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:40:24 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:37 drewc: I'm querying things for all calendars, but that's not important. I want to do X for each Y, where X involves SELECT 22:40:53 (mapcar (lambda (calendar) (calendar-events calendar dates)) calendars) 22:41:22 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:34 that SELECT should not be inlined in the body there anyway... extracting it to a function removes the need for that extra LET, non? 22:41:49 which doesn't change the fact it SHOULD be possible within ITERATE too. And that it isn't possible to make a sandbox in which CL is slightly extended is a weakness of the macro-writing tools CL ships with 22:42:14 iterate is crap 22:42:30 Guthur: perhaps it's somewhat sad that it has a different syntax. It might be accepted faster otherwise :) 22:42:43 also, i don't understand why SELECT needs that lexical binding 22:42:57 mathrick: which is why i don't understand the point of the example 22:43:00 madnificent, I see the exact same expect with parenthesis 22:43:18 eg. (for x in y) 22:43:18 iterate is broken, that doesn't mean macros are broken. LOOP handles this case just fine 22:43:32 mathrick: is it essential problem? If you'd make iterate with macrolets, wouldn't that make it extensible? I'm likely missing your point 22:43:41 And just because it's in a sexp doesn't make that seem anymore Lisp to me 22:44:32 Guthur: true, yet it may be nice to group statements in parentheses. The same way as you normally group statements in lisp 22:45:01 Guthur: it is more lispy, because it removes the need for stupid meaningless syntax like DO 22:45:07 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:10 and special LOOP-only IF, WHEN and WHILE 22:45:44 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:00 and it also means my existing editors know how to indent it 22:46:06 Maybe, I could only comment superficial on that small example you provided 22:46:14 i don't understand why interpreting compiling a lisp-like language that looks like CL but acts differently is seen as more lispy than, well, using CL. 22:46:17 Beyond that I hadn't much else to add 22:46:20 HET3 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:26 mathrick: the editor's interpretation is a non-argument 22:46:35 mathrick: though I do agree 22:47:20 drewc: does (defmacro foo (&body) `(baz ,@body)) make the language subsequent forms are written in something else than CL? 22:48:12 mathrick: yes, if they are written using FOO. 22:48:59 so 99.99% of supposedly CL code is not written in CL then 22:49:20 mathrick: you've said as much yourself " macros are compilers from some specific language to CL" 22:49:32 what exactly is the point you are trying to make? 22:49:45 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:56 drewc: we should forbid using macros then 22:50:04 mathrick: i don't agree 22:50:10 i don't understand why interpreting compiling a lisp-like language that looks like CL but acts differently is seen as more lispy than, well, using CL. 22:50:18 you just said that using CL is the better option 22:50:30 macros morph the language into !CL 22:50:31 mathrick: do you have a point? 22:50:39 kiru [~kiru@173-11-84-74-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:56 drewc: that is a point actually 22:51:27 what does it have to do with your example code? 22:51:37 drewc: my point is that you contradict yourself 22:51:41 and what is that code supposed to demonstrate? 22:51:54 and if talking with you is to have any meaning at all, you need to pick one option 22:52:15 mathrick: i'm large enough to contain many such contradictions... maybe you should stop focusing on me so much... i'm starting to think you've got the hots for me or something 22:52:23 mathrick: maybe thing is: not all macro's are bad. So although they can be used for something silly, they aren't bad per se 22:53:14 mathrick: you've yet to explain the relevance of your example to your point, whatever that may be. Why did you paste this example if you didn't wish to discuss it with me? 22:54:43 drewc: the relevance is that CL makes it hard to construct delimited, CL + something languages, as demonstrated by the clash that only happens when you mesh two macros that attempt it together 22:54:59 it's a demonstration of an issue you say doesn't exist 22:55:44 LOOP "handles" it by being vastly less useful 22:55:44 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2007DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:01 It's always lispy to be able to escape from your base lisp -- how's how lisp evolves. 22:56:19 It's just that CL kind of sucks at it. 22:56:30 yes 22:56:30 And this leads to these kinds of discussions. 22:57:06 Genericity in CL by rewriting all of CL in CL is the usual place you end up. 22:57:55 incf mathrick 22:58:34 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:58:36 mathrick: what i don't understand is why you need ITERATE at all there... why not MAPCAR? 22:58:55 drewc: for argument's sake, maybe... 22:58:59 mathrick: also, doesn't simply factoring out the SELECT expression into a function solve the issue with the extra let? 22:59:09 drewc: because I fancy ITERATE here. It doesn't matter, there's no LOGICAL argument it shouldn't work 22:59:17 Why not use something else if iterate and loop don't cut it? 22:59:28 mathrick: why does SELECT require that LET? 22:59:29 rtoym: because something else will have the same issues 23:00:05 drewc: it needs to know which bindings are lexical to be able to compile the query properly, I can't recall the specifics now, but it made sense 23:00:12 mathrick: LOOP does not have these issues, mapcar does not either, and i can trivially design a SELECT function and an ITERATE macro that will not have these problems 23:00:18 Will it? 23:00:49 drewc: LOOP doesn't have these issues because it's split into two languages, LOOP and everything else 23:00:51 mathrick: so SELECT is at fault here, non? 23:00:58 ITERATE is not a language? 23:01:08 which means I can't use CL inside LOOP, and I can't use LOOP inside CL 23:01:15 (for foo in bar) is not CL either 23:01:18 argh 23:01:55 rme: Thanks for fixing that expt inaccuracy bug. (I assume it was you.) 23:01:59 mathrick: how about another iterate, one that would allow intermixing? 23:02:07 mathrick: just because you've happened to choose two poorly designed macros does not mean all such macros will suffer the same issues. 23:02:16 drewc: whatever. Just because you can hack around things that don't work because of weaknesses doesn't remove the weaknesses. It just makes you remember more crap you shouldn't need to remember 23:02:24 rtoym: no problem. thanks for the bug report. 23:02:42 mathrick: the weaknesses are in ITERATE and SELECT, not DEFMACRO. 23:02:49 rme: Now I just need to get ecl and sbcl to do the same thing. :-) 23:02:51 (imo) 23:03:33 mathrick: DEFMACRO has a lot of problems, but you've not actually demonstrated anything beyond 'code walkers suck', which we already knew. 23:03:58 urnthr [~James@c-24-13-121-207.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:15 mathrick: If you want to complain about something that makes CL hard to extend in the direction of a new lisp, complain about the interning reader! 23:05:26 drewc: why did it take you that much nonsense argumentation to get to the point that we all dislike code walkers? 23:05:35 drewc: I still don't think you've given any answer as to why using ITERATE there should be wrong besides "it could be done another way". That's not news, everything in CL can be done another way. But if they're equivalent, they should work in the same situation 23:05:45 drewc: I have, in fact, complained about that before 23:05:53 madnificent: scroll way up to how i entered this conversation 23:05:54 drewc: in this time you out of all should've gotten to that point earlier, instead of bashing on iterate? 23:06:19 mathrick: SELECT is at fault here, not iterate 23:06:52 drewc: pretend it's not SELECT but something that generates closures so it has to know lexical bindings to be able to close over properly 23:07:08 ITERATE still has no good way to extend the environment it sees 23:07:09 madnificent: can i get in on the code-walker hate? hate those things! <--- that is from approximately 3 hours ago. I've been on that code walkers suck since the beginning 23:07:46 s/it sees/code inside it sees/ 23:07:51 mathrick: iterate should expand to code that creates a proper lexical binding, like, say, LOOP does. 23:08:24 drewc: it does 23:08:35 so why can't SELECT see it? 23:08:56 because ITERATE has to expand it before it's done expanding itself 23:09:02 (because they are both using different code walkers) 23:09:08 why does iterate have to do that? 23:09:33 and that's because it needs to see which forms inside might need to be compiled by it 23:10:01 mathrick: huh? 23:10:07 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:14 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:10:44 drewc: if you dislike the (initially ...) form, and say it should be forbidden in the body, consider (for x initially foo then bar) 23:10:55 ok, what about it? 23:10:56 there's no way to expand this form into just a single location 23:11:02 so? you don't have to 23:11:07 it has to end up in two places 23:11:15 so? 23:11:29 must i write an example? 23:11:32 so your macroletting solution won't work 23:11:36 yes it will 23:11:38 drewc: yes please 23:12:03 ok, hold on a second 23:12:23 ls 23:14:01 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 -!- kiru [~kiru@173-11-84-74-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:14:57 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 23:16:03 mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.134.184.64] has joined #lisp 23:16:26 mathrick: is that an intrinsic problem? wouldn't it be possible to use a macrolet to 'interpret' the code (that would still give you the lexical binding)... Somehow I have the feeling that there's an unsolved problem in there 23:19:14 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:52 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:20:30 madnificent: not in every case I think. If you have (collecting foo into bar), you have to know it's there to be able to establish the lexical binding for BAR 23:21:28 mathrick: the macrolet runs at macro-expansion time, that's on time to change the loop itself, no? 23:22:14 madnificent: no, because by the time MACROLET runs, ITER is done expanding and can't do anything to accommodate for new bindings anymore 23:22:54 why do you assume that? 23:23:24 drewc: counterexample please :) 23:23:30 Probably because of how macros expand in CL. 23:23:39 drewc: how else could it work? 23:23:43 drewc annotated #111048 "two places non local macrolet expansion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111048#1 23:24:38 you can choose to COMPILE the form as many times as you want, in as many lexical environments as you can create 23:28:08 skeledrew1 [~skeledrew@0245-8-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:52 drewc: how'd you use COMPILE to implement NEXT-ITERATION? 23:29:22 COMPILE operates in a null lexical environment, no? 23:29:42 you don't need compile for that 23:29:59 (defmacro next-iteration () `(go :loop-start)) 23:31:09 what happens if you mutate the result of a macro expansion after you've returned it? :) 23:31:16 drewc: placed where exactly? 23:31:20 foom: nasal dragons 23:31:25 oooh 23:31:27 sounds fun 23:31:47 mathrick: in the TAGBODY form your loop is expanding to? 23:31:57 mathrick: or do i misunderstand the question? 23:32:45 drewc: your FORMS can contain a (next-iteration) call which jumps to the next iteration. How can you implement that? 23:33:33 if you just put it in the TAGBODY form, the stuff you COMPILE won't see it 23:34:00 what you're trying to say is: you really want to be using sb-c::compile-in-lexenv. :) 23:34:00 if you put in the stuff you compile, it'll error out because at that point the tag is not lexically visible 23:34:19 foom: possibly 23:34:26 but sb-c:: is not CL 23:34:35 oh, really? 23:34:53 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:32 mathrick: i don't understand at all... let me paste an example of what i mean... 23:35:38 foom: nope, everything that's CL lives in CL: 23:35:41 foom: is there a CL equivalent or not? 23:35:44 *drewc* has a feeling he'll be implementing most of iterate today 23:35:56 drewc: go for it 23:36:17 drewc: if you can make it extensible at the end, that'd be rather awesome 23:36:47 it'd be the productive route drewc, don't do it! 23:36:59 drewc: Did we decide that your example was illegal? 23:37:26 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 23:37:29 Good morning! 23:37:35 plage: end our misery! 23:37:41 good morning plage 23:37:55 It'd be pretty nice to write-up how to do something complicated like iterate without using a codewalker, even if it's only partially implemented. :) 23:37:56 madnificent: Sure, what can I do? 23:38:30 mathrick: formulate for plage please :) 23:38:35 NOoooo 23:38:46 *plage* goes to get a cup of coffee. 23:39:13 Zhivago: i should hope not, what's not legal about it? 23:39:20 plage: where are you that makes it a morning? Vietnam or something? 23:39:39 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 23:40:02 drewc annotated #111048 "next-iteration and loop-exit" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111048#2 23:41:08 mathrick: extremely simplified, but that's the idea 23:41:33 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:41:47 drewc: I think you missed the objection 23:41:57 drewc: which is: how does that work in combination with the code you posted before 23:42:19 mathrick: Yeah, Ho Chi Minh City. 23:42:22 drewc: lemme take a look 23:42:28 (I'm not sure that iterate actually ever needs to allow you to call next-iteration from within code that was moved, but that'd be a different objection) 23:42:37 plage: and how's your language? 23:42:39 OOPS [in case Fare is here] I mean Sai Gon. 23:42:54 mathrick: beginner leve. 23:43:11 still? So your CLIM hacking was a failure? :) 23:43:15 foom: i don't understand the objection... are you talking about having a NEXT-ITERATION form inside that code that will be moved? 23:43:28 mathrick: I wouldn't draw that conclusion. 23:43:39 drewc: I think that was the objection yes 23:43:56 drewc: oh, but they're strictly local in ITERATE. Not define outside of its body 23:44:08 that of course wouldn't work if you use compile to move the code like you showed. 23:44:15 mathrick: ok., so use macrolet instead of defmacro... 23:44:35 foom: why not? i'm still not sure what the actual objection is. 23:44:45 drewc: but how will you place you use it inside the FORMS you COMPILE? 23:44:57 huh? 23:44:59 drewc: "The consequences are undefined if the lexical environment surrounding the function to be compiled contains any bindings other than those for macros, symbol macros, or declarations." 23:45:00 drewc: The consequences are undefined if the lexical environment surrounding the function to be compiled contains any bindings other than those for macros, symbol macros, or declarations. 23:45:18 s/you place// 23:45:27 -!- HET3 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:46:23 maybe i'm tired now, but i'm not sure how that relates :) 23:46:40 (let (*forms*) ...) 23:47:17 oh sorry 23:47:23 (defvar *forms*) 23:48:01 maden [~maden@dsl-155-157.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 23:48:11 Er, that won't work, you need it to be local to the macro expansion. :) 23:48:45 drewc: that'll break horribly when you nest your macro 23:48:56 plage: would it be possible to implement a typechecker for an object system like CLOS (in this case sheeple) within common lisp, or should I target a specific implementation for that? 23:49:01 i'm sorry, but doesn't the let binding take care of that? 23:49:27 That's a crazy restriction for compile, but it does seem to make your code non-portable. 23:49:44 the point is that you can't have that let binding, and stay within the portable definition of compile 23:49:52 why not? that's a dynamic binding 23:50:22 cue "DLET should be separate from LET" rant here :) 23:50:31 mathrick: indeed :) 23:51:16 hm. you might be right, sorry. :) 23:51:49 sorry to have forgotten the DEFVAR, it won't work without it, and i do have it here in my repl :) 23:51:54 madnificent: I don't immediately see why it would have to be implementation dependent, but there are of course limitations as to what you could check, given (setf (slot-value x (read)) 234). 23:52:24 madnificent: Oh, but you might need the MOP. 23:52:41 drewc: but you're still not allowed to refer to tags because you have no place to put them in that's lexically visible to the code you COMPILE and your own macroexpansion 23:53:01 plage: I can hack in features for a MOP if needed. I'm going to do it as a thesis and it's somewhat scaring me. I wanted to know if I was running towards something impossible 23:53:08 madnificent: what exactly is a typechecker here? 23:53:10 RustyWheeler [~russell@60-241-37-219.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:53:25 mathrick: so, i can macrolet NEXT-ITERATION to a no-op in the COMPILE form.. i don't need the tags there at all, do it 23:53:29 do i 23:53:51 again, that depends on whether anything affected by code-motion needs to be able to jump to tags or not 23:54:04 you'd have to check iterate in more detail to know that 23:54:17 no.. 23:54:17 yeah 23:54:17 mathrick: with prototypes it is a bit hard. In short it's checking that the called messages are available in the objects on which they are called (and probably some extras to enforce things at compiletime/runtime) 23:54:23 i'm not using the code i COMPILE guys 23:54:46 that's simply a code walker to extract forms which may need to be in two places 23:55:07 drewc: aahh I see. You're too clever for me. 23:55:16 mathrick: it seems to be a heavily understudies subject, but I might find sources on it. If you know anything it'd be most welcome :) 23:55:17 _danb_ [~user@124-171-25-183.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:55:20 drewc: sigh. :) 23:55:42 foom: :D 23:56:36 if i cared, i'd put out a better iterate than iterate. Me, if LOOP doesn't handle it, i tend towards PROG and FLET ((collect ...)) 23:56:42 madnificent: nah, I just wanted to understand what you were asking about :). But I take it you mean typechecking in a form smarter than just "(when (not (find-message msg receiver)) (error "Unsupported message ~A" msg))"? 23:57:25 plage: are there some resources I should read regarding something like this? I'd prefer to be able to read macroexpanded forms and see if they may do something with the object. But I don't think I can automatically hook into defun. 23:57:27 drewc: I need to sleep on what you said 23:57:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:57:53 mathrick: you can add messages to objects at runtime, which makes it a bit harder :) 23:58:07 mathrick: keep in mind what i just told foom.. we're not using the code i COMPILE at all, that's just to walk the code without a code walker, really. 23:58:13 mathrick: and change the parents and add/remove variables. That sort of stuff 23:58:21 madnificent: how exactly? You can check what messages are there at runtime as well, no? 23:58:52 Ok, so you compile it in order to predict the expansion, which makes sense. 23:59:02 drewc: oh yes, I got that part the first time around actually 23:59:06 mathrick: yes, but you'd likely prefer to get as many errors as possible at compile-time. It's trivial to do it at runtime. Heck, it will error out anyways :) 23:59:24 drewc: I think your code doesn't let you implement (iter (for i from 1 to 10) (when (evenp i) (collect i into x)) 23:59:28 madnificent: exactly, hence my question about "something smarter" 23:59:36 foom: why not? 23:59:48 drewc: well, maybe I still don't understand