00:01:15 Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:24 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WAAAAAAAAGH!!] 00:03:32 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:44 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.204.39] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:04:49 -!- Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:05:13 Phoodus [foo@174-22-216-12.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:13 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:08:08 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:15 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:53 What parentheses? 00:15:01 Fare: Around? 00:17:40 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 00:18:29 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:39 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:47 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 00:28:09 fsck, I'm using eval in a macro, but only because I cant figure out how make it work without eval 00:28:20 Are you sick of niggers? 00:28:26 Tired of their monkeyshines? 00:28:32 Then join our fabulous forum! 00:28:41 C h i m p o u t . c o m / f o r u m 00:30:29 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh00014.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:30:41 no ops eh 00:31:09 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.197.152.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:33:01 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:33:13 hush 00:35:35 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 00:35:46 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.140] has joined #lisp 00:36:10 -!- Linuxiano [~BjornLope@201.160.239.146.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [K-Lined] 00:40:53 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:43:09 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-103-112-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:44:57 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:48 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-4.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:26 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:46:48 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:54 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:16 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:48:17 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:48:33 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:49:38 -!- HET3 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:51:22 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:53:26 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:54:40 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:42 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:56 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:09 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has joined #lisp 01:00:59 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-204-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:02:16 Thomas [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:09 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:31 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:05:34 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:43 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 01:10:31 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:13:30 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 01:18:42 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-96-233-72-164.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:31 -!- Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:24:33 kqr [kqr@xkqr.org] has joined #lisp 01:24:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:26:56 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:27:00 so, i have a list of, say, (x y z a b c). i want to evaluate function f, with the two first elements of the list as arguments. my problem is that i want them reversed, so that from (x y z a b c) i want (f y x). if it wasn't for that little "reversed"-clause i could just (f (pop lst) (pop lst)). now i can't. i can think of a lot of solutions including lamba functions and popping and reversing and everything, but they're certainly not beautiful. is there any easy solution i 01:29:01 maybe something like: (apply f (list (cadr your-list) (car your-list))) 01:29:26 (and no, (f (second lst) (first lst)) doesn't suffice, as i need the list to be destructively updated) 01:30:33 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 01:31:13 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 01:31:21 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:24 Then destructively update the list. 01:31:50 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:05 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:09 Something like (psetf (first list) (second list) (second list) (first list)) 01:32:11 (apply f (reverse (subseq list 0 2))) ? :) 01:32:27 Zhivago: might be good 01:32:38 or, i'll actually be arsed and create a second-pop macro 01:32:40 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-96-233-72-164.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:41 Well, not huge on the efficiency scale. 01:33:15 (funcall f (second l) (first l)) is probably closer to what you want. 01:33:21 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 01:33:52 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 01:34:08 yes, but preferably while destructively updating the list, so i suppose a second-pop is my best bet 01:34:15 and it seems it works that way too 01:34:18 thanks :) 01:34:35 Well, you could write a pop-two that produced two values ... 01:34:38 de 01:34:40 oops 01:34:58 (destructuring-bind (a b &rest the-rest ) '(1 2 3 4 5 6) (+ b a) ) 01:35:21 that is the equivalent of (+ 2 1) 01:36:13 what are these archaic cryptic mnemonics 'first' and 'second' I keep seeing in code? ;) 01:36:40 bytecolo: Hehe, they do pretty much what they say on the tin 01:36:49 heh 01:37:16 Was that sarcasm perchance? 01:37:23 aye! 01:37:27 hehe 01:37:44 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:38:11 Guthur: i'll have to experiment with destructuring-bind a little 01:38:12 I still havent gotten in my to pick funcall before apply 01:38:17 Guthur: it looks very clever 01:38:24 *in my head 01:38:30 first and second is probably the better option 01:38:33 what's the difference between funcall and apply? 01:38:47 one takes a list the other does not 01:38:53 ah 01:39:01 but I think funcall is more efficient, no? 01:39:03 any idea when b9.com will be up again? 01:39:39 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 01:43:24 kqr: If you were using destructuring-bind like that and not using the-rest, you can add (declare (ignorable the-rest)) to stop compiler warnings. 01:43:59 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:44:47 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:45:17 But none of the solutions destructively modify the list. Is that required or not? 01:46:03 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:46:37 well, i could do that afterwards 01:46:48 but my current solution involves a second-pop 01:47:02 which pops the second element of the list and conserves the rest 01:49:36 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:13 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-56-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:52:38 Oh I never notice that destructive modification of the list was a desirability 01:54:58 (destructuring-bind (a b &rest the-rest ) '(1 2 3 4 4 5) (+ b a) (list* b a the-rest)) 01:55:02 There, hehe 01:55:41 You don't need the ignorable now either 01:56:27 That returns a modified version of the list, You'd have to setf though 01:57:04 That doesn't destructively modify the list either. 01:57:22 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:24 Ya, I know, that's why I set a setf was required 01:58:45 That doesn't destructively modify the list. 01:58:46 Sorry I know I again missed the destructiveness 01:59:12 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 01:59:13 rtoym, No need to repeat yourself 01:59:37 Why not? You didn't destructively modify the list twice. :-) 01:59:52 I bet he'll not do it again. 02:00:22 Meh, 02:00:27 But given kqr's approach, perhaps "destructive" really means something else here. 02:00:40 *rtoym* can't tell anymore. 02:04:06 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 02:05:43 minion: memo for Fare: Tried asdf2 with spatial-trees-0.2. It doesn't work. I think because of the :pathname constructed for the modules. 02:05:43 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 02:08:51 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:43 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:13:52 -!- silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:13 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:15:20 (nreconc (subseq list 0 2) (nthcdr 2 list)) 02:15:43 Obscure question: anyone have a good way to associate values with a class (like class-slots) that WILL change when such a class is redefined? 02:15:43 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-131-62-220.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:44 That's about as destructive as I could get it without pops and pushs 02:16:42 class slots don't get reinitialized, and my attempts to use update-instance-for-redefined-slots has been an ignominious failure... 02:18:37 kqr: /why/ do you need the list destructively modified? 02:19:13 rpg-: because after i've performed (f y x) i pop the result back, so it can be further processed 02:19:18 push* 02:20:20 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:21:15 so you want to end up with (f y x) y x ... ? 02:21:33 -!- rpg- is now known as rpg 02:21:38 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:16 rpg: There maybe be one kludge to get the shared slot reinitialised, redefine the class without and then redefine again with the shared slot 02:22:30 Quite a horrible way though, if it works 02:22:36 rpg: in the end, yes, (x y z a b c) might turn into (h (f (h (g (f y x) z) a) b) c)) 02:22:41 By the spec it seems possible 02:22:47 but, with the arguments reversed. i missed that part 02:22:48 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:22:51 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:10 and probably i have the wrong number of parentheses there 02:23:28 kqr: "might"? 02:23:41 kqr: Is this supposed to be some kind of calculator stack? 02:23:42 tcr [~tcr@203.82.81.91] has joined #lisp 02:23:49 yes, well, exactly 02:24:18 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:01 do you want F(x y &rest foo) => (f y x) . foo or => (f y x) y x foo ? 02:26:39 i'm not sure what you mean there 02:27:34 Bobrobyn_ [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:27 anyways, i really need to catch some sleep (it's 4.30 AM here now) 02:28:35 thanks for all your help so far :) 02:29:54 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:31:13 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:34:22 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:13 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 02:35:31 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:03 knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-65-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:55 kqr: Seems like you need to define the data structure that is your stack and define operations on it. Doing this in terms of primitive sets on lists will end in tears. 02:43:47 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:43:53 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 02:44:50 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-131-62-220.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:45:33 -!- knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-65-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:19 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:29 Doesn't a list make a nice stack? 02:46:51 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 02:48:32 rtoym: Yes, but you don't want to go destructively modifying it willy-nilly. I think kqr will be a lot happier wrapping the stack in an object (or struct, or even just a variable name), and operating on the stack as a stack, instead of ripping up list structures to which pointers may exist... 02:49:47 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-49-178.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:50:08 Yeah. But popping and pushing instead of destructively modifying should be fine. 02:50:55 rtoym: agreed. I'm mostly suggesting thinking about this as a stack abstract data type, instead of rooting around below any level of abstraction... 02:51:37 seems like kqr is trying to build a forth interpreter.... 02:51:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.81.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:59 rot dup2 f push ... 02:52:03 This is likely a rookie mistake, but I have the following problem: I have a class (say, "book") which is of a certain metaclass (say, "artefacts"). Is there a way to define methods that apply to all the classes of metaclass artefacts? (defmethod test ((object artefact)) (...)) doesn't work. 02:52:23 An abstract type would be good. Then you can change it however you want later for whatever reason. 02:52:39 fsmunoz: why does artifact have to be a metaclass? 02:52:58 rpg: well, it's the way it is, I'm working on existing code :) 02:53:02 rtoym: right; and it encourages you to think uniformly about what the operations are, instead of plunging into bit-twiddling. 02:53:14 *rtoym* is reminded of someone going and changing some abstractions (gasp!) in maxima because the abstractions were very simple. Fortunately he was prevented from doing so. 02:53:14 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:37 fsmunoz: If it wasn't written by Pascal Costanza, odds are that the use of a metaclass is a mistake! ;-) 02:53:44 hehe 02:54:07 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:25 rpg: I'm not entirely sure I even understand the different between a metaclass and a suprerclass (well, in practice, conceptually I've read about it since Smalltalk), so you will get no argument there 02:54:53 fsmunoz: seriously, the metaclass is trying to do something entirely else, something very complicated and something almost surely that you don't need to do. 02:55:14 If you want to define behaviors in a normal way, you should have a superclass, not a metaclass. 02:55:31 fsmunoz: metaclass would change the way the clos oprates in this case, artefacts rally should be just a superclass 02:55:59 p_l: it was a bad example, what this metaclass does is add XML import/export to classes 02:56:33 fsmunoz: to classes AS CLASSES or to objects of a class? 02:56:56 serialization/deserialization is better handled by writing code that uses MOP to acces internals of a class, IMHO... 02:57:02 *access 02:57:12 my letters todays seem to fall into bitbucket 02:57:56 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:57:58 rpg: to classes as classes, but I'm not touching that code 02:58:08 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:58:26 p_l: yes, this is what this does I think. 02:59:03 fsmunoz: Honestly, if you want to simply attach behaviors to the classes, I'd suggest you add superclasses where you need them, instead of mucking around in the MOP. 02:59:17 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:59:23 yeah, multiple inheritance helps a lot with that :-) 02:59:37 I was not more that half-joking when I said that should be left for the likes of Pascal. 03:00:25 I hear you 03:00:42 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 03:00:43 I'm in the middle of a big mess of misery now because I have code that rashly used the MOP instead of working around it. 03:00:58 (by coincidence) 03:01:11 echo-area [~zhujun@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:03:03 still, some easier elements of MOP aren't that hard and are certainly easier and less error-prone than making it from scratch 03:03:05 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:11 (google for mopintro.ps) 03:04:57 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:05:33 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 03:05:35 thanks for the hint, will do 03:05:58 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:39 it's an excellent document any way, and definitely better follow up to likes of PCL and Gentle Introduction than On Lisp :) 03:10:47 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:11:10 good night all... 03:12:34 cheers rpg, thanks 03:12:37 time to go as well 03:13:36 knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-65-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:41 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:15:05 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:15 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.98] has joined #lisp 03:17:17 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:28 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.135.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:02 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:26:45 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 03:27:02 tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.119] has joined #lisp 03:33:28 -!- fsmunoz [~fsmunoz@a81-84-225-60.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:35:03 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:43:03 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:45:47 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 03:46:13 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-159-31.aei.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:47:48 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 03:54:08 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-29-62.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:54:11 Good morning! 03:54:41 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 03:57:26 in case there is anybody related to SBCL, the manual link on the website is timing out. 04:00:06 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-131-62-220.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:01:30 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:02:59 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:04:21 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:09:28 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:12:48 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-185-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:13:29 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 04:15:51 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:59 asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has joined #lisp 04:29:31 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 04:31:36 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 04:35:14 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.141.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:39:02 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:02 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:39:02 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:39:10 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:51:13 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:52:36 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:53:54 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:55:35 nostoi [~nostoi@81.36.253.77] has joined #lisp 04:59:02 HG` [~HG@xdslea169.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:00:43 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:16 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:04:20 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-veehzgfpofsalzup] has joined #lisp 05:05:19 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:11:31 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:41 I add a message slot to my parse result class for something like "expected `foo'" and it quadruples the parse time 05:12:59 are structs inherently faster than classes? 05:13:13 it really doesnt have to be a class 05:14:10 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:15:35 maybe a struct of type vector or list, eh 05:16:44 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 05:17:15 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslea169.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 05:18:16 tootroot [~baka@unaffiliated/tootroot] has joined #lisp 05:19:45 -!- ottergwc [~brianj@wsip-24-234-246-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:21:47 bytecolor: in my experience structures are indeed faster, however in SBCL the CLOS overhead is pretty small compared to some other implementations (i.e. clisp, ecl) 05:21:48 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-24-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:22:01 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:25:22 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 05:26:30 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:27:47 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 05:30:19 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@81.36.253.77] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:31:18 hrm, I'm on sbcl. I'm switching to a struct of type vector to test 05:31:25 cm [~cm@tepostmail.linekong.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:53 -!- cm [~cm@tepostmail.linekong.com] has left #lisp 05:40:13 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:40:13 *p_l* notes that ECL probably uses some complex datastructure for classes while using plain C struct for structures 05:40:22 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c06.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:33 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:42:57 hrm, struct == class in my case, about the same parse time 05:43:31 think I'll keep the struct, a lot less wordy ;) 05:43:35 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:45:17 quite a difference, about 2.5 sec to parse without the message slot, about 13.75 sec with it 05:46:01 parsing a ~2000k line pascal source file 05:46:39 A beer sound good rigth about now 05:47:04 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:23 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c06.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:24 if I remember ECL doesn't translate CL structs to C structs directly, but uses an array with indexing (which however generates pretty similar assembler code than when accessing C structures of course) 05:48:18 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:50:07 and yes the CLOS paths are quite more complex 05:58:12 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:01:32 -!- sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:03:12 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 06:11:56 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:13:27 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.199] has joined #lisp 06:17:29 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:17:37 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:17:56 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:18:02 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:19:33 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:21:16 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 06:21:20 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:37 HG` [~HG@85.8.72.226] has joined #lisp 06:31:44 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 06:37:27 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 06:37:31 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 06:41:39 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-164-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:44:01 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:44:09 good morning 06:44:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-veehzgfpofsalzup] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:45:49 -!- sword [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:46:57 sword [~user@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:26 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 06:50:22 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fhgqkhoerilgjydu] has joined #lisp 06:52:58 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 06:52:59 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:07 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:18 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 06:54:43 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:55:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:59:18 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:01:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ldbyvfwqvvepyrgi] has joined #lisp 07:01:27 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-188-173.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 07:04:49 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 07:05:20 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.242] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 phadthai: C structs are essentially the same - objects placed linearly in an array of bytes (looking at it from POV of machine code) 07:07:51 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-tsikjsqpazcilkto] has joined #lisp 07:09:38 aw [~aw@p5DDA9080.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:47 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:12:27 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:13:17 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:21 I guess the sheer number of calls to make-parse-result is such that any additional load is amplified 07:14:28 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:16:17 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fhgqkhoerilgjydu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:18:37 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 07:18:53 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 (parse "1, 2, 3x, 4" (op@ (op% [0-9] #\,) eoi)) => (NIL 2 :NO-ATTRIBUTE "Expected character of class [0-9]") 07:20:06 there is no skipper used 07:20:24 (parse "1, 2, 3x, 4" (op@ (op% [0-9] #\,) eoi) wsp) => (NIL 7 :NO-ATTRIBUTE "Unexpected `x'") 07:20:30 with a whitespace skipper 07:25:35 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:27:51 need to figure out how packrat parsing works, that one still baffles me 07:28:43 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:29:06 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:31:34 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:33:15 Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-174-164-111.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:22 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:03 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:34:09 anyone written a packrat parser? I think it has to do with using the hashed value of a parser form associated with an actual result string 07:34:11 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:35:15 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host86-182-66-65.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:35:17 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@unaffiliated/g0sub] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:36:07 so given a parser, I could look it up in a table instead of actually performing the character level parse, which is supposed to result in linear parse times 07:36:55 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-246-28.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:36:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:36:58 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 07:38:09 xan_ [~xan@83.32.114.158] has joined #lisp 07:38:46 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:38:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:39:45 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:43:46 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:26 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-tsikjsqpazcilkto] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44:28 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:45:05 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:49:20 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:50:22 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:54:12 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.234.199.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:54:30 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 07:54:47 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 07:58:03 -!- SpinDoctor [~chatzilla@ppp-69-230-120-63.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:01:07 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-171-63.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:01:11 merl15 [~merl@188-22-166-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:03:07 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:02 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:04:07 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 08:04:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@83.32.114.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:06:17 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:07:12 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-miowintkcfnwmlnq] has joined #lisp 08:09:11 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-202-249.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 08:17:25 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:17:53 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-miowintkcfnwmlnq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:22 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:45 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:30:04 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:02 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-xxomucxdufewklqb] has joined #lisp 08:32:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:38 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:23 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-166-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:35:02 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:18 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:41 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:38:19 merl15 [~merl@188-22-166-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:39:36 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111046.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:50 dslguy [~8fa6e23b@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmkgskeiqmixatss] has joined #lisp 08:40:20 good evening lispers 08:41:25 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:41:58 is this one of those channels that are quiet at this time of night? 08:42:53 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:06 morning 08:45:28 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:46:09 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-166-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:22 right, morning 08:46:33 to me the morning only starts at 6 08:47:57 pm? 08:48:04 am 08:48:15 ahh 08:48:22 right, it is 10am here ;) 08:48:44 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:48:47 oh that makes sense then. it's 3:48 here. do you call 3:48 am morning? 08:49:53 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.72.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:52:21 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 08:52:38 -!- aw [~aw@p5DDA9080.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 08:53:13 not really 08:53:23 3:48 can be my late nights at times. 08:54:44 #lisp has been pretty quiet over the last two weeks but that may just be because I moved to an opposite timezone 08:56:08 tcr: are you in us? 08:57:47 moved from europe to asia 08:58:25 wow that's cool 08:58:36 yeah i consider night whenever it's dark outside :) 08:59:37 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:56 tcr: which part? I'm from asia? 09:02:35 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dkwhhbbxrskvrxuv] has joined #lisp 09:03:10 leo2007: malaysia, KL. I'll probably be in Bangok in the last week of July. 09:03:21 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:38 do they really call it Bangkok? 09:03:48 or is it something like city of angels or something? 09:03:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-246-28.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:11 Murdox [~uhhh@host81-159-141-254.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:39 tcr: on vacation? 09:05:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:06:21 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:22 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:06:36 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:36 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:06:50 -!- Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-174-164-111.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07:35 leo2007: Work-related, but I feel more like on vacation which really does bad things on my productivity 09:08:10 in anycase, you should enjoy it ;) 09:10:00 i wanna ask a question about lisp macros 09:12:28 dslguy: I want a shrubbery 09:13:34 i can give you one 09:13:40 if you help with my question :) 09:14:20 can anyone point to an extreme example of using reader macros to implement DSLs that look nothing like lisp? 09:14:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 09:14:38 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:14:43 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 09:15:20 dslguy: you had asked no question. 09:15:23 dslguy: clpython 09:15:49 dslguy: it uses the reader to parse python, emit an python AST and then uses macros to compile it 09:16:07 fsvo "uses" anyway 09:18:10 tcr: thanks, i'm googling it 09:18:30 iamcms2 [~iamcms2@c-67-171-167-236.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:39 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19:31 tcr: how to make the slime repl pop up only if calling connection interactively, otherwise it should just stay in the background when first connected? 09:19:55 I have (slime-connect slime-lisp-host slime-port) in slime-mode-hook. 09:19:58 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:22:05 what's "if calling connection interactively"? 09:22:17 But I really don't know, you have to look into the code 09:22:58 from minibuffer or through a key-binding? 09:24:16 but how can you establish a connection non-interactively? 09:24:22 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:24:45 through a hook? 09:25:05 oh like each time you open a .lisp file? 09:25:28 yeah 09:26:37 stassats: M-x slime-connect for interactive call 09:26:47 stassats: You happen to know whether ccl has something like sbcl's defknown? 09:27:52 haven't encountered anything similar 09:28:20 but ccl's compiler looks less declarative, so maybe it's done somewhere by pushing everything into something 09:28:35 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:55 blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has joined #lisp 09:31:45 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:35 billitch1 [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:42 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 09:34:13 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ldbyvfwqvvepyrgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:34:26 arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:10 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host81-159-141-254.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:24 Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has joined #lisp 09:40:59 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:42:06 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has left #lisp 09:43:02 -!- knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-65-26.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:43:43 guenther_ [~unknown@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:20 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:45:47 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 09:46:50 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:48:18 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:49:08 pr_ [~pr@p4FE2D6F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:08 -!- pr_ [~pr@p4FE2D6F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:57 aw [~aw@141.76.6.51] has joined #lisp 09:50:23 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:58 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xteyvxskpwfkgtsm] has joined #lisp 09:52:05 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53:02 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-94-44-43-18.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:53:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:53:05 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 09:56:24 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:19 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:01:15 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 10:01:54 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:01:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-43-18.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:01:56 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:02:45 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:03:09 tcr: that was a cool example 10:03:28 tcr: do you have any idea how big that project is in lines of code? 10:04:15 you can grab the source and run wc -l 10:05:20 blandest` [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 10:05:34 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-147-207.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 10:05:58 cl-python has 16839 LOC of Lisp 10:06:56 wow that's not too bad 10:07:03 they say python is 370k LOC 10:07:21 -!- blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:07:34 of C i guess 10:08:21 and the above figure includes tests 10:08:32 unit tests? really? 10:08:36 so the real figure is a lot lower 10:08:50 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:07 -!- carrl [~carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:09:21 don't know what kind of tests, but they are 2893 lines of code 10:09:31 well it's probably a biased question to ask on a lisp channel, but I guess lisp is the best language to implement a DSL in? (or even a general programming language) 10:09:34 carrl [~carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 10:10:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:11:20 no 10:11:24 lisp is THE best language 10:12:17 oh i see, the best, period. :) 10:12:36 but it can't be the best for everything, i mean, for every domain 10:12:37 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:12:38 right? 10:13:00 at that moment i switched to a browser window and read in someones slashdot signature ""Lisp is the greatest single programming language ever designed." -- Alan Kay" 10:14:04 wow, that is saying something 10:14:26 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:14:46 does the lisp community also shun mutability like Scheme does? 10:14:53 "It's so well designed, no one is willing to use it" . hmmm ... no. that's just from me. ;) 10:15:43 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:15:53 dslguy: no 10:15:56 Speak for yourself 10:16:04 stassats: that's good to know 10:16:16 i like functional languages but i don't hate mutability either 10:16:48 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:16:48 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:17:03 cl doesn't impose restrictions on your style 10:17:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-237-39.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:17:50 well neither does Scheme but if go to #Scheme and show them some source code using set! they'll kill me 10:18:24 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 10:18:24 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 10:19:01 what's the equivalent of PLT Scheme for lisp? (free, turnkey...) 10:19:23 "...Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to lis 10:19:23 t." - Kent Pitman 10:19:45 I was a bit slow, but I had to first find that quote again ;-) 10:19:47 dslguy: maybe Clozure on Mac OS X 10:20:09 otherwise you'll need to turn the key a little more 10:20:19 what about for windows? 10:20:23 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-72-234.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:20:55 minion: lispbox? 10:20:56 lispbox: Lispbox is a version of Lisp in a Box, which was originally created by Matthew Danish and Mikel Evins, customized for use with Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/lispbox 10:21:16 maybe something like that exists, but more modern 10:22:45 merl15 [~merl@188-22-166-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:24:49 do you mean to say lispbox is outdated? 10:25:08 yes 10:25:50 hmm 10:26:49 searching stackoverflow they recommend CLISP and SBCL 10:27:21 some people here recommend Clozure CL 10:28:04 To all the fellas out there with ladies to impress 10:28:04 It's easy to do just follow these steps 10:28:04 1: Cut a hole in a box 10:28:04 2: Put your junk in that box 10:28:04 3: Make her open the box 10:28:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 10:28:21 -!- Xof has set mode +b *!*Thomas_H@*.bchsia.telus.net 10:28:27 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xteyvxskpwfkgtsm] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:28:58 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.220] has joined #lisp 10:29:16 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 10:29:35 pavelludiq__ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 10:29:38 pavelludiq___ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has joined #lisp 10:30:48 hmm 10:31:00 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:02 dumb question: does lisp compile to binary? 10:31:02 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qnskrztigzlxgzdm] has joined #lisp 10:31:51 stassats: and if it does how does it handle its eval() function? 10:31:51 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31:54 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D51F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:12 Lisps are usually interpreted, but you can have a Lisp implementation that also allows you to compile to binary 10:32:15 it includes everything 10:32:21 Oddity: usually? 10:33:09 I'm probably wrong 10:33:10 ignore me 10:33:39 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:18 wow i wonder how it does eval() when it's compiled 10:36:28 anyway, did you see the price for LispWorks? thousands of dollars, wow 10:37:53 dslguy: Usually Lisp implementations provide an interpreter and a compiler at the same time. Interpreted and compiled function can be used interchangeably. 10:39:23 so if i were to sell my standalone .exe compiled lisp program it would have an interpreter in it ? 10:39:39 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:39:44 some compile directly down to machine code, others to byte-code running on a specially-crafted vm, others compile down to C and use a C compiler to compile to machine instructions, and some compile down to JVM bytecode 10:39:57 Yes, and usually the whole lot of the CL runtime 10:40:28 which tends to make executables large, but there are ways to avoid that 10:42:59 RustyWheeler [~russell@60-241-37-219.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:44:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 i see 10:46:41 tcr: do you program lisp in windows? 10:47:53 Nope 10:48:23 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:50:37 dslguy: this doesn't necessarily mean your program's users have access to the interpreter / repl (not sure what you mean) You can hide it from them. 10:50:41 Modern lisps are mostly compiled to binary. clisp is an exception. It compiles to byte code. 10:50:56 The COMPILE function allows you to interactively compile single definitions in a running session 10:51:00 aerique: right, i figured that would be possible 10:51:42 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 10:51:47 Many lisp implementations also have an interpreter, mostly to enable stepping of code 10:52:05 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 10:52:11 The lisp standard include a DISASSEMBLE function 10:52:19 Which in most lisps shows you the binary 10:52:32 As assembler op codes and args 10:52:33 -!- pavelludiq___ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:52:33 -!- pavelludiq__ [~quassel@91.139.195.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:52:38 i see 10:53:20 You still lose a factor of 2 or 3 over C, unless you very carefully add declarations to allow the compiler to avoid run-time type checks. 10:53:44 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 10:54:04 Which leads to the diamond representations of software development. 10:54:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-237-39.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:54:36 Both C & Lisp start at the top of the diamond, no code. On the left side of the diamond, C programmers get very quickly to fast broken code. 10:54:51 On the right side of the diamond, lisp programmers get very quickly to slow working code. 10:55:04 The C programmers get rid of their corrupted memory problems to arrive to fast working code. 10:55:12 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:55:14 The lisp programmers do optimizations to arrive at fast working code 10:56:52 hmm that's good to know 10:56:58 i don't care about speed at all 10:57:46 i'm still trying to find a nice lisp implementation for windows 10:57:48 billstclair: but for C there are already libraries that lift most users from doing the memory management (partially at least). 10:58:10 right but i've used C for much of my life and i'm tired of it 10:58:17 yeah 10:58:20 it's silly to use a language that doesn't know what strings are 10:58:23 I consider C to be a good portable assembler 10:58:30 I prefer programming in a high level language 10:58:32 me too 10:58:37 billstclair: yes. 10:58:51 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-216-12.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:57 you guys use the usual emacs + slime for an ide? 10:59:03 I do 10:59:20 Via clbuild currently 10:59:31 i would love to learn emacs because it looks extremely powerful 10:59:35 but it's so impenetrable 10:59:39 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:59:41 m-x tutorial 11:00:08 and then they say there's no really good version of emacs for windows, they're all kinda broken they say 11:00:18 SOrry, c-h i 11:00:18 i don't even know how to type m-x :) 11:00:21 c-h t 11:00:36 can't they use the real key names? ctrl, alt, etc? 11:00:38 Been a long time since I typed that 11:00:43 ctrl-h t 11:00:56 Two keystrokes get you to the tutorial 11:01:28 interesting, slime can start up and freezes like this: http://imagebin.org/98247 11:01:37 dslguy: Emacs works very well on Windows too 11:01:46 I use eclipse and cusp for an IDE. It has most of the SLIME features. 11:02:37 blandest`: what version do you use? 11:02:48 RustyWheeler: i'll look into that 11:02:58 I am now mostly on Ubuntu, but the latest stable version from GNU should be OK 11:03:02 that is 23.2 11:03:08 Interesting. Cusp talke to Swank, the Slime backend 11:03:08 hmm ok 11:03:12 talks 11:03:13 billstclair: now about that ctrl-h t 11:03:22 that t will go to some buffer right? 11:03:38 ctrl-h is the prefix for the help command. 11:03:48 There are a bunch of letters you can type after that to get different kinds of help[ 11:04:03 t gets you the tutorial which pops up in a new buffer 11:04:05 do i get a on-screen menu with all the options i have? 11:04:14 or do i have to commit all the commands to memory? 11:04:42 I think there are emacs cheat sheets out there. There's also ctrl-h a, apropos 11:04:52 And ctrl-h i, info 11:05:19 But the commands do not appear on the window, though you could always keep your cheat sheet in another window 11:05:47 They'll get into your lizard brain eventually, and will become as natural as touch typing 11:06:18 billstclair: the crash yesterday related to plplot is now solved by using a new driver. 11:06:22 Or make your own cheat sheet, after going through the tutorial 11:06:29 Cool, legumbre 11:06:32 er... leo2007 11:06:55 yeah i definitely need to learn me some emacs 11:07:11 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 11:07:14 i guess i'm scared that all my text will disappear 11:07:22 i don't trust buffers 11:07:31 c-x s is your friend 11:07:39 That's the save command 11:07:48 i'm afraid i'll press the wrong key and it'll make my text disappear and i will never be able to recover my text 11:07:49 My fingers type it automatically every few seconds 11:08:03 It'll be in the kill ring 11:08:06 c-y 11:08:08 m-y 11:08:15 what are those for? 11:08:22 what;s kill ring? 11:08:22 heh. Go read the tutorial 11:08:23 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:08:26 oh ok 11:08:34 kill ring is probably the undo buffer? 11:08:50 Yes. it stores the last N things you killed 11:09:02 can i define N to be infinite? 11:09:04 There's also an undo command and "what lossage", which prints the last N keystrokes 11:09:14 I've never changed it. 11:09:19 dslguy: Not really. It's where you get your pastes from, essentially. :p 11:09:21 what's the default then? 11:09:24 The default has always been big enough for me 11:09:37 Don't know. Read the tutorial. Let emacs tell you 11:09:45 Odin-: the undo buffer is where i get my pastes from? 11:09:48 It truly is self-documenting 11:09:56 billstclair: how long until i'm comfortable using emacs you think? 11:10:23 dslguy: a few weeks to be comfortable, a lifetime to get proficient 11:10:26 In a few days, you'll know enough to be useful. Modern emacs grok the mouse, too, 11:10:37 dslguy: The kill ring is. But that's not exactly an undo buffer. 11:10:51 But it IS a huge world. 11:11:05 dslguy: But, yeah, the tutorial is highly recommended. :p 11:11:13 why so huge? small is beautiful ;) 11:11:17 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:35 ANd you can get by on a very small subset of that huge world 11:11:50 Xach: a lifetime is a lot :) 11:11:53 But if you need some special editing mechanism, you can write it yourself in elisp 11:12:02 billstclair: that's what i'm planning on, i have other things to do in life 11:12:14 billstclair: that's the cool part 11:13:31 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:13:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:15:12 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 11:17:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:17:41 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:23 dslguy: I like Clozure CL on Windows in combination with Emacs + Slime if you don't mind learning the latter two. If you want to focus on learning CL first I'd personally go with Clisp since it comes with a usable REPL with history, so you can use any editor your comfortable in and simply save foo.lisp with it and (re)load it with (load "foo.lisp") on the repl. 11:19:46 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:05 -!- DerGuteMoritz [~syn@85.88.17.198] has left #lisp 11:20:14 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 11:20:35 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 11:20:40 dslguy: the latter approach is more akin to the C process of save, compile & run and is less powerful and interactive than Emacs and Slime but it might be a good first step. 11:23:51 What's "good" in there? 11:24:44 aerique: i disagree, emacs+slime+cl (be it clisp, clozure, sbcl, etc) is much better from the start 11:25:13 of course emacs has a huge learning curve, but it's almost inevitable to use a productive "ide" 11:25:27 aerique: i'll look into that, thanks for the tip 11:25:37 (i wonder what happened to cusp, and if there is something like it) 11:28:10 pmd: it probable differs from person to person, when i started learning cl emacs+slime+cl was too much for me and i was happy with using clisp's repl and vim 11:28:34 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:29:54 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:32:19 i'm going on away now, having 1-on-1 with my boos 11:32:22 boss^ 11:32:28 see you guys later 11:32:33 If you're learning, what's wrong with Lispworks? 11:32:35 -!- dslguy is now known as dslguy-away 11:32:43 (lispworks is expensive :) ) 11:32:52 The free version isn't. 11:32:58 nixie [~nixie@121.228.137.186] has joined #lisp 11:33:16 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:34:13 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 11:35:10 really? how much is the free version? (lol just kidding) 11:35:44 aerique: that was true for me too, and i started with clisp, then emacs+eli+acl. however, with clisp i did my own things, with emacs+eli+acl i basically hacked some existing code 11:45:38 I find the GUI IDEs of commercial Lisps annoying, but maybe it's just me 11:45:49 especially, the debuggers 11:46:32 netytan [~netytan@85.211.16.208] has joined #lisp 11:49:19 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:53:58 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:54:44 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:55:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:57:22 Has anybody had success with multiple threads in SBCL? 11:57:44 I have problems getting good CPU usage with more than one thread. 11:58:13 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:43 -!- echo-area [~zhujun@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:54 rpg: if you're still here. as you can guess, i'm coming from languages such as C och Python, and i'm not used to the lisp way of thinking you suggest. how would you say i "think of the stack as a stack?" 11:59:09 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:12 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:20 I don't know what that means 11:59:32 perhaps newbs could get a head-start with emacs+slime+ if they had some compiled image to hack (beyond the standard images, that is) 12:00:50 kqr: I think he just meant creating some sort of class abstraction that operated more like a FILO 12:01:32 -!- RustyWheeler [~russell@60-241-37-219.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #lisp 12:01:44 You could maybe use an array and a fill-pointer 12:02:14 As the underlying storage mechanism 12:02:46 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:02:48 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:03:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-243-129.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:03:50 Guthur: push/pop makes the list a FILO? 12:04:26 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:11 Ya, I wasn't totally convinced of the need for the abstraction, but that is how I interpreted his comment. 12:05:19 okay 12:05:30 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:36 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-243-129.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:06:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-243-129.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:06:39 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 12:07:23 The abstraction allows you to change the implementation from a list to a vector to something else. 12:09:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-243-129.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09:47 I kind of like the vector with fill-pointer actually 12:09:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-243-129.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:10:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:11:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:12:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:55 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 12:21:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qnskrztigzlxgzdm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:09 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:36 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uufeupcmpyyiabjl] has joined #lisp 12:24:01 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rest] 12:24:38 rtoym: are you going to ILC2010? 12:25:11 Xach: I would like to, but probably not. 12:31:53 asarch [~asarch@189.188.154.229] has joined #lisp 12:33:02 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:47 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-20-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:34:12 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:37:39 rtoym: i can pick you up on my way... 12:38:10 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-166-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:38:14 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:39:03 Is ILU always a USA based event? 12:39:36 What's ILU? 12:39:45 oops ILC 12:40:34 Guthur: no. 2007 was in england. 12:40:35 I was mixing it with ALU I think 12:40:39 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-103-112-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:23 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:36 Oh cool, thanks Xach 12:44:02 Guthur: i'd be a little surprised if a future ilc was held in continental europe, though. 12:44:20 there is not a shortage of formal european lisp get-togethers 12:44:44 No, I suppose not 12:45:41 But the 'International' part would have less meaning 12:45:44 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 12:46:02 But I suppose you guys do have the 'World Series', hehe 12:46:22 hey now. there's a world baseball classic now. and we even let some other countries win. 12:46:24 carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.160] has joined #lisp 12:47:01 That's sporting, hehe 12:47:17 Must go, cheers again for the info 12:47:23 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:47:31 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:38 It's possible the next ILC will be in Japan  12:48:42 Murdox [~uhhh@host81-159-141-254.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:17 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:50:57 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:21 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 12:53:32 Xach: Are you driving to ILC? 12:53:51 rtoym: No, but with skyhook technology... 12:54:01 Heh. Ok. 12:57:42 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:02 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.16.208] has quit [Quit: netytan] 12:59:05 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:59:19 The Little League World Series is a lot of fun to watch. 12:59:20 Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-179-104-47.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:32 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111046.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:01:49 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host81-159-141-254.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:03:11 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:01 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.154.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:22 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:06:13 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:11:42 ejs [~eugen@241-117-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:43 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 13:11:50 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-108-118.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:23 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:25 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 13:16:45 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:14 HG` [~HG@xdslev198.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:16 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:22 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:26 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:19:42 rtoym: ping 13:19:54 fe[nl]ix: Yes? 13:20:32 netytan [~netytan@85.211.16.208] has joined #lisp 13:20:47 Is cliki down? 13:20:58 nm it just came up for me...asdf is complaining right now 13:21:19 what's asdf complaining about? 13:21:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:58 Just that the host isn't found, brought it up in a browser to find it was stalling there too. 13:21:59 rtoym: on 20a (define-compiler-macro (setf foo) (newval)) signals an error 13:22:18 rtoym: it expands to (block (setf foo) ...) instead of (block foo ...) 13:22:20 TDT: asdf isn't normally concerned with cliki 13:22:46 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. I wonder how that happened.... 13:23:26 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 13:24:10 Xach: Ah, hmm...weird, I wonder why getaddrinfo is coming up as an error - tried two totally separate systems on different networks (one here at the university, one at home) and both seem to have the same issue. 13:24:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:49 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:24:56 Oh, looks like an oversight from the original version. 13:26:01 original version ? 13:26:10 since spice lisp ? 13:26:51 Well, vc-annotate says that part of the code hasn't change since wlott wrote it. 13:27:43 -!- ejs [~eugen@241-117-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:28:06 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 13:29:38 -!- arnee [~arnee@mail.kono.de] has quit [Quit: arnee] 13:32:34 :D 13:33:13 *Xach* sometimes really hates that sb-posix doesn't make specialized system call error conditions 13:33:51 Yeah, and that version was written in 1992, so no one has done (define-compiler-macro (setf foo) ...) until almost 20 years later. 13:35:55 hahaha 13:36:22 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:53 Should be fixed soon. 13:37:06 -!- kqr [kqr@xkqr.org] has left #lisp 13:40:31 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42:44 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-24-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:43:53 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:45:22 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:20 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.6] has joined #lisp 13:46:54 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:16 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:30 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:48:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-243-129.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:48:32 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 13:48:49 asarch [~asarch@189.188.155.11] has joined #lisp 13:49:47 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B20048A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:45 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:13 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:47 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-64-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:53:58 btw, mirrors of kmr's libraries are available at http://common-lisp.net/gitweb 13:54:38 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-56-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:42 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-211-238.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:57:08 rtoym: could publish patches in diff -u format too ? 13:57:25 What? 13:57:53 fe[nl]ix: Do you have an example of the issue? 13:58:08 rtoym: http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/downloads/release/20a/patches/cmucl-20a-patch-000.tar.gz 13:59:27 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.234.199.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: cu] 13:59:29 Oh, I suppose so. Didn't think anyone would want a patch. 14:00:49 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.18.232.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:00:53 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:54 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:42 fe[nl]ix: Do you have an example of the define-compiler-macro failure? It's easy enough to fix it so that the block name is correct, but I'm having trouble demonstrating that it's broken. 14:01:52 *rtoym* clearly doesn't use define-compiler-macro enough. 14:02:08 sure 14:02:59 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:39 rtoym: http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/src/base/defobsolete.lisp#line43 14:03:40 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-211-238.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:03:42 and 14:04:12 http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/src/streams/gray/fd-mixin.lisp#line27 14:04:57 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 14:06:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-25-82.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:06:49 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 14:08:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:36 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:11 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:06 fe[nl]ix: Do you need a patch for cmucl-20a-patch-000? 14:13:37 I've already made one :) 14:15:58 Ok. I'll try to remember that if the next release needs a patch. 14:17:52 Are those examples in the iolib-0.6.0? Or do I need iolib from git? 14:17:55 -!- moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away] 14:17:59 from git 14:18:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@130.208.212.1] has joined #lisp 14:18:35 http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/download.shtml has all the deps 14:19:48 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:19:59 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:20:02 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:20:02 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 14:20:02 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 14:20:25 Yow. 14:21:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:23:09 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 fe[nl]ix: Bordeaux threads link is broken 14:23:48 maden [~maden@dsl-147-36.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 14:24:23 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 14:26:21 rtoym: fixed 14:27:03 git clone git:://... doesn't work with my version of git. 14:27:09 Thanks. 14:28:26 hmm 14:28:30 you can use http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/files/snapshots/iolib-20100524.tar.gz 14:28:36 are working on porting iolib to cmucl? 14:28:43 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:57 lichtblau: iolib always worked with cmucl 14:29:06 it's just that I hadn't tested the latest changes 14:29:11 aha, ok 14:29:29 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 14:30:42 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:31:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:31:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:32:00 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-20-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:24 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 14:34:13 lichtblau: yepp, all tests pass on 20a 14:34:24 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uufeupcmpyyiabjl] has left #lisp 14:36:06 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:11 How do I build iolib? 14:38:26 load with ASDF 14:38:49 you need gcc and the system headers too 14:39:26 rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:36 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:41:46 Hmm. (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :iolib) signals an error while trying to load iolib.base. I wonder if that's an asdf2 problem? 14:42:26 probably 14:44:34 It complains about (merge-pathnames #p"base/" *load-truename*) not being a pathname, stream, or string. 14:45:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:25 rtoym: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/asdf.lisp is what I'm using now 14:45:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:46:01 rtoym: I suspect that what's wrong is that the protocol for specifying relative pathnames has changed. 14:46:25 sbcl.org is down, is that a known issue ..? 14:46:34 rtoym: does that have #.(make-pathname :directory '(relative "base")) in it? 14:47:04 rpg: No. But spatial trees has that and won't build. 14:47:15 WePac [~bubble@p54AA7630.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:19 rtoym: Faré told me about that, but for the moment I can't switch to ASDF2 14:47:47 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:49 rtoym: I'm afraid Fare is the expert on that, but does simple string specification of relative pathnames work when you substitute it? 14:48:03 So asdf2 is definitely NOT backward compatible with asdf? 14:48:13 E.g., replace with :pathname "base/" (or whatever)? 14:48:28 rtoym: best effort compatible. I'm not sure what's going on in the relative pathnames. 14:48:47 rtoym: Will you please lisppaste snippets that are going wrong? 14:48:54 rpg: Yes, that works. 14:49:06 rtoym: I /believe/ that also works on ASDF classic. 14:49:51 but please lisppaste the failures --- I have been meaning to improve the manual, and would try to at least add to the FAQ. 14:50:20 or feel free to drop them onto launchpad for asdf. 14:52:04 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:54:06 rpg: I've lisppasted the two failures I've found so far. 14:54:18 aha! irate nate is packing his own tars! 14:54:48 rpg: The past is http://paste.lisp.org/+25IM. (Why doesn't lisppaste announce it here?) 14:55:07 rtoym: you have to go to http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 14:55:34 What? That's what I did. 14:55:36 rtoym: I can't see why that iolib would ever have worked --- it has a call to merge-pathname inside a macro (defsystem). 14:56:06 spatial-trees looks better because it's got the evaluate-during-read thing... 14:56:30 rpg: You'll have to take that up with fe[nl]ix. :-) He says it works. 14:57:01 rpg: in the asdf.lis I have defsystem expands to a call to make-instance, so :pathname (merge-pathnames #p"base/" *load-truename*) 14:57:12 planet.sbcl.org seems to be down... 14:57:37 rpg: or something similar 14:58:19 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-131-62-220.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58:33 fe[nl]ix: it's an interesting case, and one that's common --- the desire to have a module that is /not/ in a distinguished subdir. I ought to be able to find an exmaple that works somewhere. Worth putting in the manual. 14:58:47 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-253-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:59:15 #.(make-pathname :directory '(:relative)) worksp? 14:59:33 That didn't work for me with spatial trees 15:00:15 rpg: what I want is having the sources not in the same directory as the .asd file 15:00:19 I think that's ungraceful compared with what Fare suggests; unfortunately I can't recall what that is. I believe he's tried to make specification easier. 15:00:28 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:28 It says "component #:base not found, required by # 15:00:48 fe[nl]ix: I thought you were trying to have them in the same directory instead of in the default base/ subdir? 15:01:00 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:01:03 no 15:01:04 fe[nl]ix: sorry -- I'm getting the two confused! 15:01:32 fe[nl]ix: sorry about that -- does simple "base/" do the job for you? 15:02:41 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:43 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 15:03:18 rpg: no. in that case "base/" gets merged with *d-p-d* 15:03:22 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-20-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:03:40 fe[nl]ix: on asdf2? 15:04:41 no, on an older asdf 15:05:28 fe[nl]ix: ah. what would happen if you try #+asdf2 "base/" #-asdf2 ? 15:05:33 does that work on asdf2? 15:06:17 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:06:37 -!- aw [~aw@141.76.6.51] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 15:07:32 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:07:45 fe[nl]ix: yes, I'm looking at the asdf2 manual, and it's clear that for asdf2 "base/" is the Right Thing. If it doesn't work, that's a bug. And you can conditionalize on the asdf2 feature. 15:08:00 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:18 rtoym, fe[nl]ix: would one of you please try that for iolib? 15:09:36 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:10:31 rpg: done 15:10:35 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:10:35 myu2 [~myu2@KD114020038142.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:10:39 fe[nl]ix: works? 15:11:01 on the old asdf it works 15:11:04 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:20 rtoym: would you try that with your asdf2? 15:11:42 rtoym: Also, if you can point me at the best way to test spatial-trees, I will see if I can diagnose and repair. 15:12:03 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:14 rtoym: that error doesn't actually look like a pathname error (if it /is/ a pathname error, it's not the best error string). 15:12:16 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:05 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:37 I'll have to leave w/in 15 minutes, so probably won't get to testing that until later. 15:13:54 I grabbed spatial trees from the cliki link. 15:14:17 committed to gitorious 15:14:20 http://ftp.linux.org.uk/pub/lisp/cclan/spatial-trees-0.2.tar.gz 15:14:31 rtoym: OK, thanks --- tarball not darcs. 15:14:40 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:15:21 The error comes from asdf::do-traverse. 15:16:45 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD114020038142.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:49 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:17:06 rtoym: drat. I can't replicate. On ACL 8.2 with asdf as pulled from git this morning, the load works. 15:17:31 Oh. I'm using cmucl (cvs) with asdf2 from a week or two ago. 15:17:44 I guess I can try the latest asdf2... 15:17:53 rtoym: I know that Fare has fixed some pathname merging very recently. 15:18:05 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:18:14 rtoym: http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/commit/b14e64451a121366dc3904583c9152c9e63cf342.patch 15:19:01 That works better. 15:19:20 (Well, not necessarily the version you said, but the version of asdf2 that I grabbed yesterday.) 15:20:00 spatial-trees builds now with asdf2. 15:20:44 rtoym: Great! 15:21:21 we probably need a good string way to specify "parent-directory", since "/" is badly ambiguous! 15:22:14 Isn't parent directory ".."? 15:22:50 symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 15:22:52 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 rpg: Are you going to ILC2010? 15:23:55 Xach: I sure hope so. 15:24:05 Xach: have to remember to announce it tonight. 15:24:23 milanj [~milanj_@109.92.8.36] has joined #lisp 15:24:37 I'm planning to go. Need to see if I can get subsidized. 15:24:57 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 15:25:15 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-xxomucxdufewklqb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:18 Where is ILC? Nevada? 15:25:27 rtoym: reno, nevada 15:26:51 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-190-142.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:12 Xof: would you accept patches to spatial-trees.asd that removed the use of modules ? intra-module deps don't work on most ASDF versions anyway 15:27:13 Drove through there once. Won about 50 bucks there. :-) 15:27:23 rtoym: that's one way to subsidize the trip! 15:27:50 Xach: Only if you guarantee I can win again! 15:28:28 everyone wins if "Mr. Cmucl" goes to a lisp conference 15:28:47 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-101-37.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:29:07 fe[nl]ix: actually, one of the things I'm most proud of about ASDF2 is that we FIXED inter-module dependencies! 15:29:35 fe[nl]ix: you can catch me later about this if you want more details --- off now for a while... 15:29:36 fe[nl]ix: if I can remember how to get at the source code, yes :-) 15:29:53 -!- rpg [~rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:32 though if they're fixed in asdf$n maybe not 15:30:33 dunno 15:32:12 rpg: inter or intra module dependencies? 15:32:42 -!- nixie [~nixie@121.228.137.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:33:20 right, I meant inter-module deps 15:33:39 Xof: spatial-trees is small enough that it doesn't need to use modules 15:39:06 TeMPOraL [~user@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:39:37 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-171-63.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:39:51 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-20-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:40:22 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-231-231.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:45:06 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:46:09 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:47:03 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dkwhhbbxrskvrxuv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:55:10 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:56:04 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 15:56:27 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:56:41 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 15:57:00 -!- blandest` [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57:52 Xof: http://paste.lisp.org/+25IQ 15:58:17 -!- trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:59:56 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:00:38 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 16:00:46 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:37 -!- pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:43 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:43 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08:54 Sergio` [~positron@a89-152-186-140.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:08:56 ost [~user@94.188.39.210] has joined #lisp 16:09:01 hello 16:09:01 -!- Sergio` [~positron@a89-152-186-140.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 16:09:01 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 16:10:12 aw [~aw@p54B3BB39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:06 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.220] has left #lisp 16:12:03 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.16.208] has quit [Quit: netytan] 16:16:29 -!- ClaudiaS [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has left #lisp 16:16:49 -!- Bobrobyn_ [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17:00 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:35 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:23:24 TDT` [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:58 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:27 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 16:25:09 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 16:27:39 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-204-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:40 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:29:55 hi fe[nl]ix 16:30:04 hello Blkt 16:35:06 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@130.208.212.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:35:22 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:35:43 tim [~tim@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:46 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:19 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 16:43:57 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 -!- tim [~tim@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:17 tim [~tim@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:26 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:44 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:45 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:49:11 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:50:02 -!- tim [~tim@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:55 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-103-112-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:52:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:52:44 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 16:54:23 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-253-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 16:56:12 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 madbear [~dude@c83-253-60-155.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 -!- WePac [~bubble@p54AA7630.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:58:42 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 16:59:16 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:00:22 WePac [~bubble@p54AA5E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:40 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:12 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:06:52 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:10 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-253-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:10:18 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-253-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:12:30 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-181-25.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:05 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:17 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-181-25.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:53 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-96.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:15:45 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-223-150-41.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:23 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:19:51 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:36 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-147-207.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:49 blandest [~user@79.112.118.224] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-271.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 17:27:26 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.155.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:19 -!- hdurer__ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:58 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:33:22 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.8.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:33:51 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:36:11 rpg: "" means "same directory as parent module/system" whereas ".." means "parent directory of parent module/system's directory" 17:36:11 Fare, memo from rtoym: Tried asdf2 with spatial-trees-0.2. It doesn't work. I think because of the :pathname constructed for the modules. 17:37:22 works for me on latest from http://rvw.doc.gold.ac.uk/gibbons/darcs/spatial-trees and ASDF 1.728. 17:37:37 asarch [~asarch@189.188.155.11] has joined #lisp 17:38:06 milanj [~milanj_@79.101.169.24] has joined #lisp 17:38:08 could very well have been broken between something and 1.727. 17:38:45 -!- segv [~mb@p4FC1B7FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:57 Fare: do you know if there are any slides available from the hpc talk? 17:39:45 not from the hpc talk 17:40:01 but I could ask ben hyde about it... 17:40:26 On the other hand, I have slides of my asdf2 lightning talk... 17:40:28 i take it you were actually there - was it as interresting and cool as it sounds? :D 17:41:37 it was way cool. Ben Hyde did the presentation and was lots of fun. 17:42:04 as for whether there is anything new... probably not... you can guess most of the content from the title of the talk and the company's website. 17:42:13 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 17:42:22 and knowledge of Lisp. 17:43:01 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:43:41 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:44:17 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:28 segv [~mb@p4FC1B6B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:54 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.102.63] has joined #lisp 17:46:23 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-147-36.aei.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:52 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslev198.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 17:47:36 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:48:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-25-82.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:48:48 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 17:52:35 Fare: what's the best way to test asdf2 with, say, sbcl? 17:53:21 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:53:52 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:54:36 slyrus, cd asdf ; make test lisp=sbcl ; sbcl --load asdf.lisp --eval '(require :spatial-trees)' 17:54:49 things like that 17:55:20 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-30-227.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:55:22 Personally, after testing ASDF2 a little bit, I replace the one from SBCL with: sbcl --eval '(compile-file "asdf.lisp" :output-file (format nil "~Aasdf/asdf.fasl" (sb-int:sbcl-homedir-pathname)))' --eval '(quit)' 17:55:44 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-231-231.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:57:37 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-64-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:59:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:35 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:32 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:20 ok, thanks! 18:01:29 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 18:01:38 FotherMucker [~50c2ed21@gateway/web/freenode/x-iopmosqunrfrfpkj] has joined #lisp 18:01:39 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 18:01:51 I just saw the most fucked up movie trailer ever man. 18:02:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 18:02:12 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*50c2ed21@gateway/web/freenode/x-iopmosqunrfrfpkj 18:02:33 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 18:02:58 -!- aw [~aw@p54B3BB39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 18:03:05 -!- FotherMucker [~50c2ed21@gateway/web/freenode/x-iopmosqunrfrfpkj] has left #lisp 18:04:11 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:42 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:06 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 18:09:42 i just saw the fost mucked up nickname ever man 18:09:47 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-181-25.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:12 on the pils side of eilf: is there a comparison between ASDF1 and ASDF2? ie: why I should use either of both 18:11:37 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 18:11:52 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:37 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:46 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:24 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:22:45 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-181-25.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:01 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082E418.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:48 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-72-234.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:41 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C462.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:50 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:28:32 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:14 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-204-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:18 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-204-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:40 madnificent, see our FAQ, part of our manual 18:34:17 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/FAQ.html 18:34:19 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:37:26 -!- lonstein [~lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:12 HG` [~HG@85.8.90.67] has joined #lisp 18:39:53 hi! i want to make a dynamic array or list for strings 18:40:20 madbear: Easy as pie. 18:41:31 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:49 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:14 i figured i guess Xach . like (setf l '()) and then just append to it? 18:45:14 -!- ost [~user@94.188.39.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:33 madbear: if you want something to use at the repl, better something like (defparameter *strings* '()) and use PUSH. 18:45:48 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@90-145-55-138.bbserv.nl] has joined #lisp 18:50:01 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:50:23 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-204-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:23 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:58 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-223-150-41.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:29 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:34 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:51:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:52:05 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:28 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:55:12 Xach: thanks.. this aint easy.. yet :) 18:57:12 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-20-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:57:16 neither is pie 18:58:04 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:33 -!- trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:09 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 19:00:37 -!- WePac [~bubble@p54AA5E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:04:01 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:16 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.90.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:11 Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 19:05:28 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:06:37 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:07:20 WePac [~bubble@p54AA5E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:41 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:14 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-53-118.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:02 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:10:15 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:06 Phoodus [foo@174-22-216-12.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:10 netytan [~netytan@85.211.16.208] has joined #lisp 19:12:48 ajmrch [~asarch@187.132.116.78] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:16:15 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.155.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:16:51 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:17:07 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:11 aw [~aw@xhss48-406aa.wh13.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:44 HDurer__ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:21 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:23 -!- HDurer__ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:18:23 HDurer__ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 19:18:30 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 19:19:27 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-152-71-13.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:55 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 19:20:13 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:20:14 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:41 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@90-145-55-138.bbserv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:20:46 Does anyone know of any commercial lisp products, possibly desktop apps, that have been open-sourced? 19:22:01 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@90-145-55-138.bbserv.nl] has joined #lisp 19:23:22 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:23:48 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:27:13 jmckitrick: MCL, sort of. 19:27:34 macsyma, really-kinda-sorta 19:27:34 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-204-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:02 MIT lisp machine sources, kinda sorta? 19:28:04 (there exists/existed a commercial version, but that isn't the version that's open sourced) 19:28:21 heh. Abuse! 19:28:22 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:26 Xemacs? 19:29:43 was always open source, but was also 'commercial' 19:32:18 Harlequin Dylan? 19:32:31 astalla [~astalla@93-36-230-4.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:33:05 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 19:33:11 hello, is there a way to define multiple initargs for the same slot in a CLOS class? 19:33:13 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:20 astalla: sure. 19:34:02 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:34:14 Xach: how? :) 19:34:43 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:34:54 astalla: (defclass foo () ((bar :initarg :bar :initarg :baz))) for example. 19:35:30 Xach: oh, thanks! 19:37:15 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-127-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:37:57 Xach: that much closer to accepting the speaking gig at ILC 2010. Now I really do have to come up with a topic. 19:38:33 gigamonkey: nice. my schedule is clear and i think it's pretty likely i'll make it. 19:38:48 Cool. 19:39:37 Fare: Yeah, the latest asdf2 works with spatial-trees. Sorry for the noise. 19:40:37 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@90-145-55-138.bbserv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:40:43 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 19:41:30 Fare: I was worried that the :pathname "" might not work with ACL, so I formulated a test for it. Would it be OK for me to push that? No asdf code, just a test. 19:41:56 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:35 marioxcc [~user@201.132.48.93] has joined #lisp 19:43:24 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:44:53 Fare: thanks :) 19:46:00 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-24-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:49:53 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:54:56 Harlequin Dylan should be an interesting one to check out. 19:55:52 -!- ajmrch [~asarch@187.132.116.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:09 There have been rumors of open-source the real Macsyma. But only rumors. 19:57:17 Er, open-sourcing 19:57:59 Fare: But iolib doesn't work with asdf2 because it has :pathname (make-pathname ...). Apparently this used to work with asdf. 20:00:46 aledge [~abakst@inet-hqmc05-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:15 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:02:52 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:03:49 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:07:26 c.l.l should be renamed to comp.lang.not.lisp or comp.lang.free-will 20:08:42 Hmm. So very little of the Dylan core is actually lisp, eh? 20:10:25 Does the version of Dylan from CMU contain more Lisp code? CMUCL used to have some #+dylan stuff in it. 20:10:48 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.98] has joined #lisp 20:11:51 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:12:32 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-jkseqzagcwhdbiys] has joined #lisp 20:13:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 20:17:48 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-123-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:09 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:21:23 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-53-118.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:36 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:03 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:24:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:26:29 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-152-71-13.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:27:37 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:34:01 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-172-60.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:34:31 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:37:11 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-20-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:31 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:41:57 -!- WePac [~bubble@p54AA5E8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:44:27 is the upper-limit on integer types actually enforced? If I declare something of type (integer 0 2999), will it just use fixnum, wrap exactly at 2999, or is it unspecified? 20:45:03 Depends on your lisp. If you want to be portable, don't count on it. 20:45:15 basically, I'm thinking about an almost-64 bit type that would compile down to a fixnum on 64-bit machines, but still work on 32-bit without wrapping 20:45:34 since in the context of its use, it increments from 0 and will never wrap a 64-bit number 20:45:35 Phoodus: certainly isn't specified to wrap. 20:45:46 Phoodus: ... integer? 20:45:52 however, wraparound from a 32-bit fixnum would be a danger, so I don't want to just call it a fixnum 20:46:05 powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-146-106.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 20:46:13 how many bits would be enough? 20:46:24 60 or so would be fine 20:46:50 I think I calculated that with a 64-bit counter, if you incremented a million per second, it would still last something like 8000 years 20:46:54 so what's wrong with (unsigned-byte 60), or (or (unsigned-byte 60) fixnum)? 20:47:24 ah, cool, I didn't know unsigned-byte had arguments 20:47:34 that sounds much more in line with my intent 20:48:08 I don't care about wraparound, I just care that it's a big enough, and can use immediate register math on 64-bit 20:48:34 thanks 20:48:39 Phoodus: keep in mind that declarations are promises that you, the programmer, make to the compiler. A declaration won't alter the semantics of cl:+ for instance (e.g., to perform wrap-around arithmetic). 20:49:26 right 20:49:44 *hefner* wonders if Phoodus understands how CL implementations typically represent fixnums 20:50:07 I've read enough disassemblies that I think I have a handle on it 20:50:55 rme: Any conclusion on the expt issue? 20:51:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:53:38 Phoodus: Okay. It might just be that I'm functionally illiterate, but it isn't clear to me what situation you're trying to avoid - CL doesn't do modular arithmetic automatically, so if wrapping around a 32-bit integer is a problem, it isn't clear to me why you'd be using it. Is that you're primarily concerned with efficiency on 64-bit machines, and want a type declaration to avoid generic arithmetic there? 20:53:56 I said I don't care about wrapping 20:54:03 I'm incrementing a number from 0 20:54:29 want to ensure the size is "big enough" that it won't wrap for a few thousand years at max throughput, while allowing 64-bit machines to hold that value in a register 20:54:54 rtoym: i killed that free will thread as soon as it started... it's still going is it? poor buggers. 20:55:04 without having to do all sorts of fixnum vs bignum vs float checks 20:55:17 every single time an increment is performed 20:55:21 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:55:30 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has joined #lisp 20:55:37 it's a micro-optimization, but something I got curious about expressing to the compiler 20:55:47 rtoym: I believe that both expt and log in ccl should be fixed to be smarter. 20:56:13 drewc: Yeah, it's still going on. Along with the style thread. 20:56:23 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-30-227.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:25 rme: That would be excellent! 20:56:49 Phoodus: "I said I don't care about wrapping", " that it won't wrap for a few 20:56:49 thousand years at max throughput" <--- mixed messages there... perhaps i don't understand what it is your actually want to do. 20:57:00 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-55-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 If 53 (52?) bits is enough, stuff the number into a double-float. 20:57:42 rtoym: doubt that's any faster than a generic bignum. 20:57:53 drewc: to be more clear, I don't want nor expect it to wrap, even though I'm fine with it being a fixed-width number 20:58:09 why would you want to slow things down by doing float increment instead of limited-range integer increment? 20:58:12 because 60 or so bits would last for thousands of years 20:58:12 Phoodus: I'd go with a side-effectful counter (e.g. a cons of fixnums) for implementations with narrow fixnums 20:58:28 rtoym: amazing... nobody wanted to play the parser v regexp game with me, yet hours wasted on style and a discussion of free will? Priorities people! :D 20:58:57 pkhuong: I'd expect a 32-bit box to either default to bignums or a 2x 32bit tuple 20:59:03 instead of doing it manually 20:59:06 drewc: the thread that won't die. 20:59:32 Phoodus: it will default to bignums. The consing overhead will dominate the increment by an order of magnitude. 20:59:35 if it doesn't optimize, fine. I just want it to be correctly large enough to work there, while 64-bit can know enough to still use a register 20:59:36 Xach: seems like there's one every year... at least it's not politics this time (yet). 20:59:41 pkhuong: A double float could fit in a register. Shouldn't that be faster? 21:00:01 rtoym: not if you have to box it. 21:00:31 pkhuong: consing overhead = allocation inside the bignum code, or what? 21:00:37 pkhuong: Yeah, I guess it all depends on how Phoodus wants to use it. 21:00:37 Phoodus: right. 21:00:49 Phoodus: you don't need to anything to achieve that. Typical CL implementations store fixnums in registers. Only bignums/floats/rationals/complexes are boxed. 21:00:58 rtoym: I've started to try to make both log and expt smarter a couple of times, but I've always chickened out or gotten discouraged to date. But I plan to try to fix it soon. 21:01:26 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-230-4.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 21:01:29 pkhuong: I'm not too worried about performance on 32-bit though anyway 21:01:37 Phoodus: go with a regular integer then! 21:02:19 again, it's just wondering about out the smallest, cleanest way to express this to the compiler. (unsigned-byte 60) seems to be the way to go (after verifying the number of tag bits on the intended 64-bit lisp target) 21:02:31 rme: Little by little, then. I'm grateful for the fix, though. 21:02:38 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-33-213.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:00 Phoodus: and what if you only had 48 bit fixnums? 21:03:20 then (unsigned-byte 60) would require it to use something bigger 21:03:25 pkhuong: then you'd get a better lisp implementation. :) 21:03:41 yeah, doesn't CLISP do 24-bit fixnums? 21:04:05 Phoodus: my point is that establishing your *correctness* needs in function of the target implementation seems like a lossy proposition. 21:04:08 Phoodus: Yes. On the 32-bit version. 21:04:42 Doesn't LispWorks have 24-bit fixnums too? 21:04:45 pkhuong: if our target lisp can't hold it in a single fixnum, then the optimization is moot 21:04:59 (again, 32-bit, and for all I know they could've changed it in newer versions) 21:05:04 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.102.63] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:05:08 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8411.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:31 Phoodus: what point are you adressing? 21:05:49 avoiding generic increment 21:06:08 Is it the bottleneck? If not, who cares? 21:06:13 by ensuring that the value is wide enough to have thousands of years worth of incrementability 21:06:28 like I said, something I got curious about how it would be expressed. 21:06:31 Phoodus: right, so fix that minimum value first, and then look at the possible optimisations. 21:06:40 avoid generic arithmetic is a separate issue from storing the value in register 21:06:53 My beef is with saying that (unsigned-byte 60) is enough because that's what works on your target. 21:07:36 And that's why I suggested (or (unsigned-byte 60) fixnum): once you've established that you want at least 60 bits, upgrading to fixnums if needed can help avoid range checks. 21:08:06 I thought there weren't any range checks 21:08:15 there aren't if you compile with low safety 21:08:23 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 21:08:25 pkhuong: That's interesting. SBCL will do the right thing compiling arithmetic with a type declaration like that? 21:08:28 if you compile with high safety, there are. but they won't actually hurt your performance 21:08:39 (well, only very minimally) 21:09:07 hefner: yeah. Type unions on integers are v. well computed. 21:09:13 ^^ above information for SBCL. Other implementations may vary on whether or when they would do range checks 21:09:18 *hefner* adds that to his bag of tricks 21:09:55 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:10:04 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79.101.169.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:10:05 hefner: in this specific case, that won't be useful until nyef commits his lowtag tricks branch (: 21:10:28 -!- powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-146-106.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Quit: powerje] 21:12:36 why are lispworks fixnums so small? 21:12:40 hmm, seems like my remembrance of those incrementability calculations were off 21:12:44 benny [~benny@i577A7EAB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:08 for a 60-bit number, incrementing a million per second would last 36,533 years 21:13:55 (unless I'm doing something stupid in my math) 21:15:05 I think that's about right. There are some 31 million sec/year. 21:16:03 slava: Don't know about lispworks, but I think clisp (used to?) use the top bits as a tag, with 8 bits for tags. 21:16:15 doesn't that limit you to 16mb of heap? 21:16:30 not if you mask the bits off, then shift left 21:16:40 slava: * minimal object size. 21:16:58 so if you have 16 byte alignment then you're limited to 256mb heap 21:17:11 slava: or object table (but I don't think clisp does that) 21:17:28 slava: if you were making these decisions many years ago, I could see some appeal in being able to use the x86 al/bl/cl/dl registers to access type tags 21:17:34 yeah 21:17:36 I seem to remember quickly running out of RAM in CLISP, but I wouldnt' bet my life on it 21:18:00 Hmm, I wonder if it's time to stop tagging objects yet. 21:18:04 Yeah, I'm probably wrong about clisp. Just created a 16 million element array. 21:18:15 rtoym: they could have a separate heap for arrays 21:18:28 Zhivago: problem with BIBOP is that you kill locality. 21:18:48 Not suggesting bibop. 21:19:05 what are you suggesting? two machine words per pointer, with the high word storing a class descriptor? 21:19:08 One approach is to move the discriminator into a separate object. 21:19:14 *hefner* is pleased to see in the LW manual that it can relocate its core, and does so automatically on Windows and Mac OS 21:19:15 Zhivago: how's that work for immediates? 21:19:17 exu0 [~exu@dslb-088-067-158-091.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:19 (on x86, at least) 21:19:28 hefner: sbcl can't do that? 21:19:30 Well, you don't need it for immediates with discriminated code paths. 21:19:42 Zhivago: immediates but no tagging? 21:19:44 slava: there's a patch, it isn't integrated. 21:19:51 pkhuong: works for C ;) 21:19:55 Hmm. Latest mcclim listener doesn't work very well on OS X and cmucl. Some kind of clx font-error. 21:19:58 So as soon as you start to use things like specializing traced paths a lot of that need disappears. 21:20:05 pkhuong: Yeah. 21:20:27 lispm [~joswig@g224047151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:48 slava: congratulations BTW, you have one of the high performance dynamic language runtimes that can be taken seriously for deploying applications =p 21:20:53 You know that whatever is in slot X is of class Y, and do you don't need to ask. 21:21:08 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-108-118.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:19 And if you don't know, then you use a discriminating object which can anwer that question. 21:21:22 hefner: tree shaking is pretty fragile in dynamic languages unfortunately 21:21:40 Zhivago: you still get to do stack allocation for every immediate value that cross traces or whatever your JITC unit is. 21:21:44 hefner: its easy to accidentally use a feature that either pulls in 12141mb of compiler, or throws an error when stuff is stripped out 21:22:30 Looks like current LW uses 30-bit fixnums. 21:22:33 pkhuong: Well, that depends on extent, so, sure. 21:22:46 erh, heap allocation. 21:22:53 does LW do the same optimizations as sbcl for storing intermediates in untagged machine integers? 21:23:21 I like having sensible defaults; makes glass jaws in the compiling scheme less glassy. 21:23:42 pkhuong: That depends on extent. 21:24:01 pkhuong: Most immediates are immutable, so do not require heap allocation in any case. 21:24:23 Zhivago: Oh, so you're going to look them up in a dictionary instead? 21:24:30 Um, what? 21:24:47 You're arguing for a no-tagging scheme. 21:25:06 So, what happens to immediates? They must be boxed into pointers. 21:25:20 No. 21:25:36 Either (a) you know what class that immediate is, in which case you don't need to do anything. 21:26:20 or (b) you don't know, in which case either it isn't immediate or you've written down the class somewhere (presumably as another immediate) and you can check that. 21:26:23 pkhuong: if a language implementation had runtime type feedback of some kind, and good support for specialized arrays, not having immediates might not be such a big loss 21:26:33 since you'd rarely dispatch on boxed objects anyway 21:26:38 slava: Factor doesn't use a tree-shaker, does it? 21:26:58 slava: unboxed arrays, structures and closures, sure. 21:27:00 Yes -- if you're using tracing, then you produce well distinguished principle paths. 21:27:00 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-33-213.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:11 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-24-10.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:13 Zhivago: and you still have to box everything when you leave a trace. 21:27:18 In which case the class information becomes implicit in the code path taken. 21:27:33 hefner: the deploy tool uses the GC as a tree shaker. it clears out global variables that store word definitions, etc, so any code not referenced directly from the main word is freed by GC 21:28:02 Well, if you can box by supplying an 'discriminator variable', then that cost isn't huge. 21:28:18 e.g., (lambda (x) ...) becomes (lambda (x type-of-x) ...) under the hood. 21:28:21 Zhivago: ok, so every value is two immeidate words. 21:28:39 Well, one, two or three, I guess. 21:28:53 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:00 That's doable... Harrop is working on something like that, funny enough. 21:29:16 there is a dylan implementation that uses this system 21:29:25 one being the case for an immediate of known type and extent, two for unknown type and known extent, three for unknown type and unknown extent. 21:29:34 luajit uses nan encoding 21:29:43 everything is a float 21:29:51 and tagged pointers are stuffed into the NaN payload 21:29:57 Well, it's a fairly obvious idea -- it's just coming into relevence again as tracing jits become popular. 21:30:23 I think the dylan implementation does something along those lines as well, except without tracing. 21:30:33 yes 21:30:44 slava: ISTR one of the big wins of the deploy tool was being able to select that large portions of the system - the compiler, the UI - not be compiled into the target in the first place. 21:31:09 Not sure if it's better to store the descriptor next to object on the heap, so that references in the heap are still single pointers. 21:31:22 hefner: yes, because the tree shaking isn't perfect. if it was, it could always start with a full image and strip out the parts it doesn't use 21:31:30 slava: can factor inline literal closures? 21:31:34 yes 21:31:58 can sbcl? 21:32:07 Not yet? The patch is ugly too. 21:32:39 I'm only doing that for a paper anyway. 21:32:59 we don't have any specific support for it 21:33:01 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:33:10 it comes for free once you do constant propagation and escape analysis 21:33:22 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 21:33:35 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:46 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has left #lisp 21:33:52 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:56 slava: not really. A closure once compiled be a vector of opaque machine code. 21:34:18 That's not very amenable to further type analysis and constant propagation. 21:34:38 *can be a vector 21:35:12 what do you mean? 21:35:29 the actual function object that a lambda evalutes to ends up in the compiler IR? 21:36:00 In SBCL, if I (compile `(lambda (...) ,(lambda ...) ...)), the inner lambda can't be usefully analysed by the compiler. 21:36:17 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.172.170.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:36:21 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:36:53 factor works a bit differently. closures retain their AST, and a machine code block is only generated if its called dynamically 21:37:15 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:e2cb:4eff:fea3:82c4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:37:21 slava: Starting with an empty deployment target seems more elegant. Using the GC as tree shaker is cool in the sense that it ought to work in a perfect world (and as such, comes for free), but shaking out things that you didn't want in the image to start with feels kludgey. 21:37:35 I'm basically doing that now: track the source and enough data to reconstruct the lexical environment given the closure's environment. 21:38:00 pkhuong: our frontend lowers closure construction to the same operations as allocating any other object 21:38:11 pkhuong: and the AST of the underlying anonymous code block is available 21:38:52 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-43-3.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:38:53 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:38:58 this bloats the image, to keep s-expression forms around for everything, but it means you can do some stuff you can't otherwise, like updating everything after redefining an inlined definition 21:39:02 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-244.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:39:03 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:19 slava, you keep AST's in sexps? why? 21:40:57 human readability? 21:41:19 ... plus weird macroexpansion effects after random runtime events :\ 21:41:45 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:22 devon` [~devon@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:43:30 -!- devon` [~devon@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1] 21:43:39 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-172-60.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:44:31 Devon [~devon@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:44:58 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 21:48:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:50:42 colinf [~user@host81-132-254-192.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:17 -!- aw [~aw@xhss48-406aa.wh13.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 21:52:59 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:53:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:53:55 tantan_2 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 21:54:05 -!- colinf [~user@host81-132-254-192.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:46 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:54:50 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:55:15 -!- aledge [~abakst@inet-hqmc05-o.oracle.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:16 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:48 Demosthenes [~demo@67.111.42.175.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:49 colinf [~user@host81-132-254-192.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:19 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxc 21:59:23 -!- marioxc is now known as marioxcc 21:59:49 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:02 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:17 -!- colinf [~user@host81-132-254-192.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: done] 22:02:21 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 22:04:16 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:05:25 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:29 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:59 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:24 lightbulb [~null@adsl-70-234-105-122.dsl.tul2ok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:23 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:15:00 powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-146-106.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 22:15:16 -!- powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-146-106.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:36 TabAtkins [~tabatkins@nat/google/x-sltwpckqhctqohzj] has joined #lisp 22:16:42 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:54 -!- TabAtkins [~tabatkins@nat/google/x-sltwpckqhctqohzj] has left #lisp 22:16:56 chris_7 [~chris@129-97-120-150.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 22:18:16 TabAtkins [~tabatkins@nat/google/x-sltwpckqhctqohzj] has joined #lisp 22:22:25 TabAtkins, I really wish all of my first year CS courses were replaced with just learning LISP. It's so damn easy to learn and it seems wicked easy to instruct on programming basics. 22:22:33 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-96.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: some light hacking, then sleep] 22:24:20 I agree. ^_^ Syntax just gets in newbies way. Hand them a decent Lisp editor, and they'll grasp things much faster. 22:25:05 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:42 I never understood how the syntax thing ever became a big deal, it's not like students aren't running round after missing semi-colons and braces in those other languages. 22:27:01 emacs & slime makes me a tingly inside too haha 22:27:20 Ah, you're using Slime to hook into sbcl or liab? 22:27:58 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:07 http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 22:28:45 Ah, excellent. Yeah, that's the best way to do it. elisp is a weird language. Hooking into sbcl is tons better. 22:29:00 rms just has weird ideas about how lisp should work. 22:29:16 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:44 Yeah so far this runs exceptionally well... one would hope though since everything in that textbook is built for that setup 22:29:45 to be fair, elisp is pretty much how lisp was when it was created. 22:29:54 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B20048A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:54 it just never changed 22:30:06 foom: Yup, that's an explanation, but not an excuse. 22:30:18 well, it's not "RMS has weird ideas" 22:30:19 CL won decades ago. 22:30:34 The "weird idea" is "It's okay to do a lisp that isn't CL". 22:30:41 errr 22:31:01 pretty sure elisp came first 22:31:35 aw [~aw@p5DDA9080.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:47 way. 22:31:49 That doesn't change the fact that it's not CL, and rms has specifically resisted moving emacs to CL despite it being decades after CL became the standard. 22:32:06 it's been a standard for fewer than two decades... 22:32:06 And thus everyone who uses emacs having to hack around that fact so they can use a real lisp. 22:32:40 CL was slightly earlier than elisp 22:32:47 elisp has a *huge* installed base of software 22:32:57 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 22:33:08 making an incompatible change is pretty much out of the question... 22:33:22 adding a CL mode would be doable, but at that point, why even bother with CL 22:33:27 Looks like CL was developed in the early 80s? 22:33:52 What's the difference between the two? 22:33:56 You might as well use a more sane language than CL if you're going to make a break. 22:35:05 foom: ?_? If you're doing a lisp, the only real option is CL. Are you saying that it would be better for emacs to switch to another language entirely rather than cl? 22:35:38 Ther_apist [~Daoloth@ip98-178-146-29.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:39 TabAtkins: emacs can't *switch*, it's gonna have to keep elisp support forever (at least, I hope it does). 22:36:07 Yes, I'm aware of that. We are, as far as I'm aware, talking about the theoretical world in which it could. 22:36:22 -!- Ther_apist [~Daoloth@ip98-178-146-29.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:36:25 oh, I was talking about the real world where it could embed support for a second language 22:36:43 there are rumours about Emacs migrating to Scheme(guile in particular) 22:36:52 so one can never know 22:37:12 although I do find that unlikely to ever happen... 22:37:34 TabAtkins, again thanks for all the help. I'm off for supper and will probably be back on later. Cheers 22:37:47 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:01 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:38:29 foom: Ah, okay. I don't have as much interest in other languages, though, so I'd just want CL. ^_^ 22:39:09 hey, there's climacs! 22:39:18 -!- chris_7 [~chris@129-97-120-150.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:24 yeah, if you want emacs without any of the useful elisp, you can use climacs. :) 22:39:28 -!- Thomas [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:10 *nus* reads that as "I don't care enough for CL to rewrite the packages I care of" 22:40:42 Maybe TabAtkins does, *I* sure don't. 22:41:02 seriously, how much elisp packages you depend on? 22:41:09 I don't know how to count 22:41:10 how many 22:41:36 *TabAtkins* doesn't use emacs at all right now anyway, and so doesn't depend on any packages. 22:41:47 look in site-lisp, or something? 22:42:59 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:44:24 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0223-166-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:41 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:06 -!- blandest [~user@79.112.118.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:45:46 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 22:46:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:07 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 22:46:14 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:17 nus: oh, you mean packages not included with emacs? 22:47:27 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:41 if that's what you're asking, 1: slime. But emacs comes with a kitchen sink, which comes in very handy. 22:50:06 -!- TabAtkins [~tabatkins@nat/google/x-sltwpckqhctqohzj] has left #lisp 22:52:16 minion: chant 22:52:16 MORE SANE 22:52:37 boo sanity! 22:53:23 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:53:26 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:28 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 22:53:55 There is one area where GNU Emacs can be beaten: usability. 22:56:00 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:56:11 USERNAME [~USERNAME@kabelnet-194-135.juropnet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:56:17 rpg [~rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:27 helllo 22:57:09 -!- USERNAME [~USERNAME@kabelnet-194-135.juropnet.hu] has left #lisp 22:57:34 -!- rpg [~rpg@c-75-72-22-252.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:54 xan_ [~xan@83.32.114.158] has joined #lisp 22:59:21 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.160] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:02:18 -!- kg4qxk [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: So long, and thanks for all the fish!] 23:02:29 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:55 Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 23:05:44 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:07:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:08 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:04 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 23:09:46 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.172.170.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:04 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.172.170.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:10:33 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:11:39 -!- setheus_ [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:12:08 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:17:15 redline6561 [~redline@64.241.37.140] has joined #lisp 23:17:24 kg4qxk [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:39 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:19:41 sdkmvx [~martin@unaffiliated/sdkmvx] has joined #lisp 23:21:47 hey, I'm having a problem with SBCL and PGP keys. When installing anything, GPG warns that 0xNIL is not trusted. http://paste.lisp.org/+25J8 23:22:36 -!- tantan_2 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has left #lisp 23:23:21 w5 23:27:49 Doesn't that just mean somebody couldn't find the gpg key for the package? 23:28:24 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.7.72] has quit [] 23:30:02 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-jkseqzagcwhdbiys] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:09 rtoym, there is a signature file, etc, and I have the key its signed by (verified with gpg in console) 23:33:17 Some bug in asdf-install perhaps. I haven't done this in years, but it did work for me back then. 23:37:23 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:43 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:39:38 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:36 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:08 ottergwc [~brianj@wsip-24-234-246-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:29 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:52:05 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@67.111.42.175.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:21 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-204-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:44 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:54:58 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:55:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:55:48 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224047151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:58 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:59 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving]