00:00:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 00:01:01 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:04 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:41 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:01:43 _3b: would defining a corresponding "setter" function be most appropriate? 00:02:27 lordakinator: you can define a (setf grid-cell) function. 00:03:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:04:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:49 gigamonkey: :$ how? (read: where do I read about that?) 00:04:50 (defun (setf grid-cell) (value grid x y z &optional direction) ...) 00:05:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:05:27 gigamonkey: seize the opportunity! 00:05:58 adeht: sadly, I think I didn't really cover that. 00:06:11 but anyway ... 00:06:20 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:42 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html the paragraph beginning with "A SETF function" 00:08:00 adeht: many thanks 00:08:15 Ah, there it is. Thank adeht. (Just found it myself.) 00:09:52 lordakinator: there's also a whole chapter about setf in On Lisp 00:10:27 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:10:39 *lordakinator* gets it now. thank you all. 00:11:31 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:12:33 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:13:54 schoppenhauer [~christoph@ppp-88-217-18-191.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 00:13:56 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@ppp-88-217-18-191.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:13:56 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:14:12 <_6502_> sleeptime for me... 00:15:03 -!- _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-94-36-238-7.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+ssfe] 00:15:23 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:26 bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.72.160] has joined #lisp 00:18:12 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.72.160] has quit [Client Quit] 00:18:20 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.17] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 00:18:58 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:36 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.160] has joined #lisp 00:20:02 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 00:20:19 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as TonyStark 00:21:10 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:22:45 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:24:58 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:00 -!- TonyStark is now known as PrettyTony 00:30:09 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:08 Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:51 -!- PrettyTony is now known as Ghostface 00:34:11 powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:11 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@98.142.251.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:24 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 00:42:21 Kirklander [~Kirklande@174-143-212-242.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:55 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 00:49:03 -!- Ghostface is now known as PuffTheMagic 00:57:44 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:09 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.157] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:00:12 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:02:13 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:02:15 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:43 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:11:23 lemoinem [~swoog@98.142.251.37] has joined #lisp 01:18:03 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@98.142.251.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:14 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:19:17 lemoinem [~swoog@98.142.251.37] has joined #lisp 01:19:48 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@98.142.251.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:38 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:52 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 01:27:24 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:16 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.88.246] has joined #lisp 01:37:02 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:37:49 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:39 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:41:40 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 01:42:43 are plists used internally by SBCL? 01:44:25 p_l: of course. plists are used to implement hash tables and consequently structures and instances! 01:44:40 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 01:44:48 p_l: no, sorry. i don't know. 01:45:38 heh 01:46:24 just curiosity, since experimenting with ACL and LW showed usage of plists for various functionality (documentation, for example) 01:47:44 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:48:28 dtom- [~tomd@92.24.68.89] has joined #lisp 01:48:58 hi 01:49:00 From memory CMUCL and SBCL largely avoid plists for those purposes. 01:49:11 Preferring separate structures. 01:49:19 why does sbcl use 4 times the memory of ccl on x8664? 01:49:40 By which metric of 'use'? 01:49:44 for example (same packages loaded in both): sbcl start+full gc: 80 megs 01:49:51 ccl64 is at 19 01:50:35 dtom-: SBCL is much more aggressive at optimization, that's one reason I heard. 01:51:12 can i tune the sbcl gc to make to lower mem use? 01:51:14 dtom-: they are different programs with different properties. 01:51:16 sbcl is in the habit of reserving large chunks of address space -- are you measuring that or the actual number of pages? 01:51:43 Zhivago: resident memory size 01:51:50 Zhivago: I think he quoted the numbers from (room) or RSS 01:52:06 cause CCL is much more mmap-happy than SBCL 01:52:16 (0.5 bloody terabyte) 01:53:59 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:54:33 -!- dtom- [~tomd@92.24.68.89] has left #lisp 01:54:54 dtom: what do you mean with "same packages loaded in both" 01:57:07 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:57:33 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:38 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 01:58:38 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 01:58:51 fgtech^ [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 01:59:42 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 02:00:51 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:01:13 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:01:40 He probably means 'systems'. 02:02:44 then it'd likely be a false claim 02:02:48 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:05 Package was a really bad name choice. 02:03:14 They should have called them 'authors' or something. 02:03:45 authors contain symbols? 02:04:06 Authors produce symbols. 02:04:20 That's what packages fundamentally solve -- the problem of separate authorship. 02:04:38 I thought the reader produces ("interns") symbols 02:04:50 Think harder. 02:04:57 .. 02:05:19 What determines which symbols the reader reads? 02:05:26 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:05:49 What happens when author X and author Y both decide to use FOO to mean something different? 02:05:50 several things.. I know you want me to say *package* 02:05:56 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:06:10 No. That just determines the implicit authoring agency. 02:06:21 The people writing the code do. 02:06:34 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:06:48 *package* just lets me write foo rather than me:foo all of the time. 02:07:16 If you have packages, you can remap authors to different names to resolve collisions, although CL doesn't make this as easy as it might. 02:07:41 I'm sorry. "authors" is just too weird for me. 02:07:43 So if you know that 'me' for system X is not the same as 'me' for system Y, then you can remap one to 'me1' and the other to 'me2', and the problem disappears. 02:07:59 Ah, well. You can't expect everything to be easy, I guess. 02:09:16 Would namespace not work? 02:09:24 as a name 02:09:28 package is shorter 02:09:28 Zhivago, do you propose just a name change here? 02:09:35 or a whole different mechanism 02:11:30 all i can say is i wish python modules were more like cl packages ;p 02:12:53 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:13:30 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:14:58 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:17:10 adeht: Mainly I think it was a poor choice of name. 02:17:16 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 adeht: There are a couple of things that I think should be changed though. 02:17:58 adeht: Some mechanism to remap subsequent defpackage names and nicknames. 02:18:03 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:18:29 adeht: And a mechanism to remap subsequent defpackage inherited packages. 02:19:03 adeht: So that you could say "rename package FOO to BAR while loading ZOG" 02:19:44 essentially a package repository? 02:20:29 adeht: No. That's a separate issue. 02:20:41 adeht: The problem here is when you get a collision in package names. 02:21:02 adeht: There is no way to automate uncolliding them without editing source code. 02:21:38 do you rule out rename-package? 02:21:41 adeht: So in the above example, we know that ZOG's package name FOO isn't used elsewhere, so we can just rename it to BAR, and no-one will be upset. 02:23:30 Well, consider what happens when you use compile-file. 02:23:32 maden_ [~maden@dsl-156-175.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 02:24:00 You would need to ensure that all compiled files are loaded so that any conflicts are disjoint, and then rename afterward. 02:24:10 You would then run into problems if you attempted to compile any more files. 02:24:20 So you could do it, but it would be awkward. 02:25:34 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:25:50 Yes. Python doesn't have multiple namespaces, which is annoying. 02:26:21 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-156-175.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:26:48 schme [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:26:48 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 02:26:48 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 02:27:52 I ran into that package name conflict, it is frightfully inconvenient 02:28:11 MetaMucil [~Omeras@99-2-200-244.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:47 How does other larger frameworks overcome such problems? 02:29:13 com.guthur.package 02:29:31 heh, reminds me when I was writing C++ 02:29:33 or pick an obscure name 02:29:42 plenty of those can be found 02:29:48 I used a namespace like ProjectName_DE20100504 02:29:56 minion: what does ABC mean? 02:29:56 Atheism Bairagi Clamper 02:30:04 then in one header I had a namespace ProjectName = ProjectName_DE20100504; 02:30:13 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:21 minion knows many obscure words 02:30:41 -!- powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerj] 02:30:46 which is just a simple alias that has nothing to do with the actual name 02:30:48 minion: what does XYZ mean? 02:30:48 Xenophobe Yelp Zonar 02:30:55 Indeed he does 02:31:23 Minion is the solution to all are package naming woes 02:31:27 our* 02:32:32 minion: what does CLFOO mean? 02:32:32 Coll Lobsterproof Filmy Oar Oilway 02:32:49 hm, it only knows trailing CL 02:33:47 minion: what does ABCL mean? 02:33:47 Apophorometer Bareheaded Common Lisp 02:34:05 Oh, so that's what that means 02:34:22 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #lisp 02:35:51 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:39 Good morning! 02:37:51 wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:22 -!- leo2007 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timeout: 265 seconds] 05:35:43 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:35:52 -!- blbrown [~Berlin@75.139.142.224] has quit [Client Quit] 05:39:55 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:40:26 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:41:10 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 05:41:49 i was hoping to wrap a metaclass by creating a root class that has it as a metaclass, then inheriting subsequent classes from the root class 05:42:47 (defclass root () () (:metaclass my-meta-class)) (defclass meta-child (root) ()) but i get an error saying standard-metaclass is incompatible with my-meta-class 05:43:53 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:44:11 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 05:44:23 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:44:48 first, the metaclass won't be inherited, second, you need to define a validate-superclass method for your metaclass 05:49:03 anyone familiar with postmodern? I can't figure out how to query COUNT(*) :\ 05:50:44 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 05:52:47 sykopomp: that's what i am doing now :-) 05:53:11 (:select (:count :*) :from 'table) 05:53:16 \o/ 05:53:38 fusss: thanks! :) 05:53:42 np 05:55:52 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-129.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:58 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:02:52 -!- sepeth [~user@78.180.90.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:05:23 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-joknstbgiilrllxi] has joined #lisp 06:05:32 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: tltstc] 06:09:40 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:10:50 . 06:14:51 heh, postmodern doesn't allow you to have a slot named "timestamp" in a dao-class object class :-) 06:14:59 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-60-170.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:37 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:15:46 hello 06:16:08 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:16:18 How can I grab the user input from a new thread like this http://pastebin.com/C8DeLGRP ? 06:17:42 (exept the while condition is wrong :) ) 06:17:58 kiuma: OT: don't use READ in a user visible interface. do something like READ-N-OCTETS, or READ-UPTO-EOF 06:18:18 read-line 06:18:46 yep, read-line doesn't eval 06:18:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:19:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 06:19:49 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:19:56 ok thanks , but the input is on repl main thread, how can send it to the thread ? 06:20:25 in the code I'm writing the repl main thread will be locked 06:20:40 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 06:21:40 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:21:56 *send it to the subthread 06:22:21 because when I type, I type on repl 06:22:26 hmm 06:23:27 within the new thread, couldn't you do something nasty like create streams for well known file descriptors (on unix, and Python-CLs) 06:23:40 kiuma: what's the problem with your code? 06:24:12 stassats, I'm binding efl enlightenment libraries 06:24:40 they are non thread safe so they must be called inside the main thread 06:24:52 that doesn't mean anything to me, you're pasting some code, but you don't say what's wrong with it 06:25:48 when I then call (ecore:run) the repl is not available anymore, because ecore:run in C has an infinite loop 06:27:32 but what is the problem with the code you pasted? it doesn't work? doesn't work in what way? 06:27:49 so I need another thread that comunicates via ecore-pipe to the main one and send (ecore:exit-main-loop) 06:28:39 stassats, with the core I posted it returns to repl CL-USER> 06:29:40 where should it return? 06:30:02 to the subthread 06:30:11 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 06:31:02 mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:31:16 you sound confused and confusing 06:31:50 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:32:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:32:22 kiuma: for a minute there forget lisp streams, if you're in FFI land, you will end up working with unix file descriptors to wrestle control away from C 06:32:33 good morning 06:32:38 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:32:54 if you run some code in the repl, after it evaluates the last statement, it will return to the repl (unless it wrecks it) 06:32:56 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:32:58 tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:15 kiuma: are you on sbcl? 06:33:47 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:34:05 fusss, yes 06:34:14 posix platform? 06:34:18 yes 06:34:50 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #lisp 06:34:52 the code you pasted works fine for me 06:34:55 stassats, it's exactly what I meant 06:35:01 ?? 06:35:14 let me try it again 06:35:28 kiuma: no, you expected something else to happen 06:37:23 I expected to send stop to the subthred "stop" 06:37:50 s/send stop/send/ 06:38:03 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:40:54 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-7-22.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:42:02 -!- randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:42:09 so if main thread will be locked, I havent the possibility to send user input to the subthread, correct ? 06:42:30 incorrect 06:42:44 so how can I do 06:42:47 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.154] has joined #lisp 06:43:15 using your code 06:44:59 http://pastebin.com/xXhGKtis 06:45:12 it's the question. 06:45:24 please look what it happens 06:45:51 i don't see anything locked there 06:46:47 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:47:43 tsuru`` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:48 stassats, of course it's not locked ! I havent callled (ecore:run) 06:48:23 then what results are you expecting to get? 06:48:26 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:48:30 it was only a very summarised snippet 06:48:55 I want to send input to the subthread 06:49:04 from slime/repl 06:49:54 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:56 then I'll do other things to unlock the main thread, but not with the code I provided of course 06:50:37 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:50:58 if you want only that, then your code already does that 06:51:11 though make sure it reads from the right input stream 06:51:45 you pass *standard-output*, but not *standard-input* for some reason 06:51:55 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 06:52:09 mmmm.... sounds reasonable, I'll try after a 'good' coffee. Thanks 06:52:32 randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 07:01:55 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 07:02:01 azathoth99 [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:14 -!- erg [~erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:03:41 erg [~erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:02 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:23 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:09:39 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 07:23:32 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0153-74-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:24:21 pholious [~91750799@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbqozwtthrjclwxl] has joined #lisp 07:25:22 shadowspar [~rick@S010600212974d18c.su.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:46 rebra_ [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has joined #lisp 07:26:16 hey guys, can't seem to quickly find the syntax for an and-statement... I want to say (when foo = bar) (and fo = bar) do ... but have a feeling the and should be embedded with the first when-statement..? 07:26:57 -!- rebra_ [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:08 rebra_ [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has joined #lisp 07:27:21 i don't understand what you want to say 07:27:22 http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/contents.html 07:27:24 -!- coyo|pingout [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ACTION closes window in a panic] 07:27:25 or spec of course 07:28:09 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-195.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 07:28:30 pholious: do you want (when (and (= foo bar) (= fo bar)) ...) ? 07:28:47 -!- rebra_ [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has left #lisp 07:28:58 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Absquatulandus sum] 07:29:23 stassats: I think he is looking for something like: (when (= foo bar fo) ...) 07:29:30 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-89-213.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:34 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:29:47 mrSpec: i think that was just an example 07:30:09 ahh yes that makes more sense yes! thanks stassats, wasnt sure on the syntax and couldn't find it that quick :) 07:30:13 rebra [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 ;) 07:33:08 -!- stray_hound__ [~stray@c-24-245-50-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:33:31 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:57 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:35:55 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:17 stray_hound__ [~stray@c-24-245-50-140.hsd1.wi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:22 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:11 Ibex_twin [~lars@a213-22-69-171.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 07:41:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:41:44 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:43:39 -!- stray_hound__ [~stray@c-24-245-50-140.hsd1.wi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:44:15 nostoi [~nostoi@46.Red-79-158-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:29 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:52:01 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:53:35 stassats: does this seem right? (when (and (> (length (get-slot-values frame-instance 'DBLINKS)) 0) (coercible-to-frame-p frame-instance)) ... ) ? it still enters instances that are not coercible, but this might be a bug in their function coercible-to-frame-p then 07:54:46 seems ok, and you can use (plusp x) instead of (> x 0) 07:55:26 ahh okay, will change that :) will report the function not working then, thanks 07:55:39 -!- aCiD2 [~acid2@ks36383.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:56:06 -!- dmelani_ [~dmelani@c83-253-52-14.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 07:56:10 and if it's a list, you can use it directly, because the only list with length 0 is NIL, which is also "false" 08:01:45 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:45 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:01:45 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 08:03:10 adema [~adema@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has joined #lisp 08:03:12 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 08:03:15 hello everyone 08:03:32 hello 08:03:34 i'm new to lisp(few weeks programming) 08:03:37 and i have a question 08:03:39 Welcome. 08:03:53 i have a function taking 2 args 08:04:13 and i have a list of 2 elements 08:04:21 clhs apply 08:04:35 specbot, where art thou? 08:05:01 i want to remove the ( ) of the list, to make lisp considere that this is 2 elements, not a list 08:05:09 adema: APPLY 08:05:20 ok 08:05:26 i'll take a look thx :) 08:05:37 (apply function list) 08:05:42 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:07:56 (apply #'+ (list 1 2 3 4 5)) 08:07:56 damn you lag. 08:09:42 andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:10:28 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:29 -!- azathoth99 [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:27 hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:43e3:9:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #lisp 08:12:35 -!- randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:55 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667473-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 08:15:05 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 08:15:48 -!- peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-34-76-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:16:23 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:16:44 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:02 peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-34-76-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:23 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@46.Red-79-158-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:18:25 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:21:08 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111077.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:42 randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:24:09 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-129.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 08:24:42 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 08:25:31 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:26:15 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:28:24 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:28 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:29:50 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-79.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:31:25 peddie_ [~peddie@adsl-99-191-73-141.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:49 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 08:35:32 -!- peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-34-76-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:35:36 -!- wolf-x [~wolf-x@ns.vlgroup.ru] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12] 08:35:57 -!- randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:42:12 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:42:43 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 08:45:50 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:45:56 larry65 [~larry65@d122-105-198-226.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:50:45 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:51:30 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667473-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 09:01:00 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-1-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:01:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:02:35 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-81-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:07:06 Guthur [~michael@host81-131-242-155.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:39 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 09:11:01 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:13:24 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 09:17:44 I'm having something strange happening with CFFI 09:19:14 from CL I call (eml:init) do some init stuff and (loop for i from 1 to 10000 do (progn (format t "foo ~d~%" i) (elm:label-label-set efl-test::*lb* (format nil "fooo: ~d" i)))) 09:19:47 CL stales more or less at 8435 iteration 09:20:01 the same thing in C doesn't happen 09:21:24 arguably, if there's a difference in behaviour between ffi and C, then the C code _doesn't_ do the same thing 09:21:32 impossible to tell without seeing it 09:22:03 gdb might be useful for seeing where it stalls. 09:22:42 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:23:06 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yoclhqargtynsqgo] has left #lisp 09:23:12 as an aside, do in loop is an implicit progn 09:23:32 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:24:18 could it be some concurrency problem (even in a single thread mode ? ) 09:24:34 concurrency problem without concurrency? 09:24:49 yes, absurd :( 09:25:28 what does elm:label-label-set do? maybe some resource limitation or inefficient implementation in that? 09:26:29 mal__, I don't know :( . does anybody of you use enlightenment ? 09:27:17 mal__, I don't know internally 09:27:25 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 09:28:08 On ones that truly reach enlightenment can use it 09:28:45 Guthur, uh ? 09:29:05 kluma, Sorry, ignore me 09:29:07 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:29:09 hehe 09:29:14 :) 09:34:12 -!- pickles [~rtaylor@96.48.62.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:50 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:35:49 I'm trying the same with a sleep of 0.1, let's see if it reaches the end 09:36:42 locked at 1711 :( 09:37:31 what's in the backtrace? 09:39:03 no backtrace at all 09:39:07 just stale 09:39:07 I still don't get why you are coming to irc for help and then not providing the information needed to help you. 09:39:27 did it crash lisp? 09:39:37 stassats, no 09:39:52 If that's supposed to be a translation of functional C code, and you're asking us to find the mistake that happened while translating it, we need to see the C code. 09:40:20 kiuma: and you're still unable to get the backtrace? 09:41:30 no, no backtrace the loop stales at 1711 09:41:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:41:48 lichtblau, the source code of efl ??? 09:42:04 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A313.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:12 kiuma: can't you interrupt it? you said it didn't crash your lisp 09:42:20 Borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:43 no 09:42:51 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 09:42:54 stassats, complitely staled 09:43:31 C-g C-g -> nothing 09:43:44 g? 09:43:59 c :) 09:44:27 kiuma: obviously not. I don't know or care what efl is. You said "the same thing in C doesn't happen", which means that you've got the "same" loop implemented in C. That can't be much longer that the Lisp version. 09:44:29 Sikander [~soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 09:44:51 -!- Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:44:58 lichtblau, ah ok 09:45:08 wait 1 minute 09:45:23 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 09:46:03 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:29 lichtblau, http://pastebin.com/zVfywCVk 09:46:39 line 33 09:47:37 That's not nearly the same thing. 09:48:20 For example, how is (format nil "fooo: ~d" i) passed through a type translator to a C function the same thing as the constant C "Hello World!"? 09:48:23 kiuma: please, use paste.lisp.org 09:49:59 malloc(); elm_label_label_set(); free() in that order could come close. I'm not saying that's the problem, because I don't know what the contract regarding ownership of elm_label_label_set's argument is, but as is, the two loops aren't comparable. 09:52:36 lichtblau, it was down this morning :) 09:53:15 what? 09:53:36 that was for me, i guess, but it's not down right now 09:54:33 stassats, yes well at least I wasn't able to connect to paste.lisp.org now yes 09:54:59 lichtblau, I'll try with with-foreign-string then 09:56:37 anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:45 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:58:49 -!- rebra [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:58:52 rebra [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has joined #lisp 09:58:53 -!- rebra [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:04 rebra [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has joined #lisp 10:01:20 foo 6689 10:01:20 foo 6[blinking cursor] 10:01:57 the call is now: 10:02:40 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:02:41 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 10:04:26 does it work as intended for the first 6689 iterations? 10:05:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:31 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 10:07:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/98766 10:07:24 isn't it strange ? 10:07:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:07:50 it's not clear what's it supposed to do 10:08:00 does label-label-set work without a loop? 10:08:22 reach foo 10000 and return prompt 10:08:41 stassats, appearently yes 10:09:55 (loop for i from 1 to 10000 do (format t "foo ~d~%" i)) here is the code which matches your description 10:09:56 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:10:57 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:11 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:13:05 stassats, I've found something very strange with efl , I didn't noticed before because it's very small, but a window has appeared, while it should only after ecore:run call 10:13:21 I think it's something efl related 10:14:26 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:14:27 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 10:14:44 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 10:15:18 -!- schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-86-43.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:17:31 ruepel0r [~rue@g226210134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:24:59 -!- adema [~adema@ariadne.enseirb.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:30 -!- rebra [~rebra@194.19.25.162] has quit [Quit: rebra] 10:26:00 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:29:42 -!- larry65 [~larry65@d122-105-198-226.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:30:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:30:23 larry65 [~larry65@d122-105-198-226.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:33:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qncnjpucbltkloss] has joined #lisp 10:36:39 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:49 kiuma: that's exactly the same thing as before 10:41:28 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:16 lichtblau, but this time I think it's efl related, I'm waiting from someone on #e 10:45:24 and talk about it 10:47:14 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:48:24 oh, this time it's different, although what the code does is effectively unchanged? 10:48:46 *lichtblau* loses interest 10:49:47 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@g226210134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:50:26 lichtblau, yes I think it's not a CL problem 10:51:37 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:52:38 blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has joined #lisp 10:55:30 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 10:55:35 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:55:54 _3b [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:03 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #lisp 10:59:38 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:00:44 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:01:55 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 11:01:55 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Quit: palter] 11:04:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qncnjpucbltkloss] has left #lisp 11:04:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xwuajqotgfoiyoyg] has joined #lisp 11:04:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xwuajqotgfoiyoyg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:56 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:06:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ztptysbkiwjvwnxn] has joined #lisp 11:07:09 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:21 jiyuu [~jiyuu@unaffiliated/jiyuu] has joined #lisp 11:09:14 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:10:10 -!- Ibex_twin [~lars@a213-22-69-171.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ibex_twin] 11:10:31 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEvPZUdAVI 11:14:42 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:17:20 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:31 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:19:28 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:20:07 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 11:20:26 smik [~siddhant3@175.40.29.31] has joined #lisp 11:21:42 I am a completly new to lisp. I have a question, why would I choose SLIME over a the common terminal with clisp interactive prompt 11:21:59 because it's better 11:22:22 stassats: yeah, thats what? Better in... 11:22:24 minion: tell smik about slime.mov? 11:22:24 smik: please look at slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 11:22:29 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 11:22:57 but why would you chose clisp, that's another question 11:23:32 stassats: Because its simple. Its basic and I would be able to work without installing emacs or SLIME 11:23:49 anyone here hack on a netbook or similar miniature devices? 11:24:06 i wanna grab one but i'm afraid they wont play nice with emacs 11:24:10 smik: clisp, there is a few that say clisp's system is quite decent, but unfortunately there will only be a few users on this channel 11:24:31 stassats: can you please excuse me for not watching the video, my bandwidth is very low. I am on a GPRS system 11:24:32 The majority of people here use Emacs+SLIME 11:24:49 and the rest are bots 11:24:52 And more often than not SBCL as the implementation 11:24:55 smik: LispIDE is a nice little IDE if you're on Win32. zero learning required. 11:25:13 I use LispIDE when I am hacking on battery 11:25:27 I am on Linux. I use Emacs already. But I want to know why SLIME 11:25:28 Oh never heard of LispIDE 11:25:41 Or is it a religious belief that SLIME is better 11:25:46 smik: because there isn't much choice 11:25:58 a cultural paradigm? 11:26:11 (I come from a python background) 11:26:20 there's no free slime alternatives 11:26:24 smik: you can use emacs' builtin lisp-mode just fine 11:26:49 smik: slime kicks ass; i wish i had slime for C++, Perl and PHP 11:27:21 smik: Give slime ago, if you don't like it use something else 11:27:37 too bad you can't watch that video 11:27:39 slime does the right thing; it's the little things that add up to greatness 11:27:52 Ok, I am sorry I think I should put my question in a better form. Why is slime *Superior* Lisp Interaction? 11:27:56 i never watched that video; never had the patience to download a *.mov crap 11:28:40 smik: why is walking upright superior to walking with a broken spine? i never experienced the later but i have a feeling the former is better 11:29:02 smik: because it's more superior than Inferior Lisp Mode 11:29:29 stassats fusss : any examples? 11:30:08 smik download it, and then C-h m 11:30:18 Guthur: I have it 11:30:27 wait 11:30:29 Well then C-h m 11:30:39 no, C-x slime-manual 11:30:42 M-x 11:30:54 ^ probably better 11:30:55 doh 11:30:58 M-x slime-info 11:31:14 I dropped to slime prompt 11:31:15 wait 11:31:35 Umm I don't have slime info 11:31:38 How to `exit' 11:31:45 Guthur: it's relatively new 11:32:00 I have the latest, since yesterday version 11:32:14 Even I don't have slime-info 11:32:24 it's since 2010-04-27 11:32:43 stassats, definitely not there for me 11:33:15 No slime.info, run `make slime.info' in /home/michael/slime/doc/ 11:33:29 ah wait 11:33:29 doh 11:33:37 Guthur: look, there it is 11:33:53 Ya, if only I could delete that message 11:33:54 hehe 11:34:28 o_O I don't even have the slime directory in ~ 11:35:17 Nice, I will have to browse through this sometime 11:35:23 it doesn't have to be in ~ 11:38:08 billitch [~billitch@dslb-094-223-087-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:05 nite all 11:41:07 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]] 11:41:31 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:43e3:9:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:52 hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:6696:9:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #lisp 11:45:06 is it possible to start swank in single thread mode ? 11:45:51 yes, set *communication-style* to NIL 11:46:59 Last question for now, I have these three Lisp books with me: ((Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence),(ANSI Lisp~ Paul Grahm),(Practical Common Lisp)). Which one should I choose which not only teaches Lisp but also allow me to `think' in Lisp. 11:47:26 exclude ANSI CL 11:47:33 stassats, thanks maybe my problem is related to this 11:48:02 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-172-178.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:11 stassats: by Paul Grahm? Are you sure, this was one of the most recommended books 11:51:56 its rather scheme inspired. Graham doesn't like major parts of CL 11:51:59 smik: recommended by whom? 11:52:07 stassats, GREAT! thanks a lot this definitely fixes my previous problem!!!! 11:52:14 by random internet research 11:52:15 thanks again 11:52:17 book reviews 11:52:28 Paradigms and Practical common Lisp are very good, I also read through ANSI Lisp some, its not that bad imo, but some don't like it 11:52:32 stassats: never by #lisp though 11:53:12 smik: it won't teach you lisp thought, that's for sure 11:53:23 common lisp, that is 11:53:50 I think its not that well organised either 11:54:04 stassats: was that a `though' or a `thought'? 11:54:28 smik: PCL is often cited as good beginning 11:54:39 my spelling is what i meant 11:55:03 And what about PAA 11:55:17 It has alot of AI stuff in it 11:55:35 Which is good, but it could be distracting 11:55:45 Has some nice details on CL as well 11:56:02 Its a damn big book though, hehe 11:56:10 Guthur: I am a treamendous interest in AI/ 11:56:19 going through PCL, and then reading PAIP from the second chapter is a safe bet 11:56:20 (I am learnign Lisp mostly for AI purposes.) 11:56:32 Comming back 11:57:03 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:57:27 PAIP is not much about AI, it uses classic AI problems to teach good Lisp style for designing complex programs 11:57:28 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58:59 It was probably quite a modern AI view for it's day 11:59:13 It was ~1991 11:59:20 minion: AIMA? 11:59:20 AIMA: AIMA is Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach, http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu 11:59:27 by the same author 11:59:35 I know and about 15 years later 12:00:00 -!- jiyuu [~jiyuu@unaffiliated/jiyuu] has quit [Quit: Read error: 666 (Stupid user)] 12:01:13 first edition is from 1995 12:01:24 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:57 Yep, I stand correct 12:02:08 -!- smik [~siddhant3@175.40.29.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:02:36 Guthur: great, i thought you're falling 12:03:01 Actually I'm sitting, sorry I lied 12:05:40 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:05:48 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:09:04 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:16:46 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:19:23 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:33 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:20:37 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant_] 12:22:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:23:43 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 12:24:25 *Xach* learns a new function, slaps forehead 12:24:40 what function? 12:25:02 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Quit: bbl] 12:25:06 parse-namestring 12:25:21 Which paradigm do Macros fit into, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm 12:25:28 *stassats* used it several minutes ago 12:25:31 Guthur: macro-oriented programming 12:25:52 stassats: I think I might have used it in the past, but I've just found its utility for testing to see if a logical pathname host has been defined. 12:25:53 hehe, wiki needs to be better informed 12:26:05 Guthur: if only there was some way for the better informed to make edits to it... 12:26:24 Guthur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaprogramming 12:26:43 specifically from http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3125141537094847@naggum.no.html 12:26:44 I was consider metaprogramming 12:27:18 lol and there it mentions macros and everything, cheers stassats 12:29:41 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:31:04 smik [~siddhant3@175.40.43.55] has joined #lisp 12:32:32 stettberger: back 12:33:17 stettberger: Note that I have to read PAIP at the end of the day. But my only question is that should I start with PCL and then go for PAIP or start with PAIP itself 12:33:56 are you sure you want to talk to stettberger? 12:34:23 smik: at the end of which day? 12:35:11 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:35:14 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-79.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:35:34 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-128.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:35:58 stassats: I mean ultimately I have to read PAIP 12:36:09 stettberger: sorry, it was stassats 12:36:22 smik: I don't think it will make a big difference. I think they are both excellent CL resources. 12:36:41 Xach: so what do you say? Go for PAIP directly? 12:36:46 smik: I think where PCL differs stylistically from PAIP I prefer PCL, but there aren't many differences. 12:36:59 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f663160-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 12:37:47 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0153-74-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:06 What is this ? Some kind of joke? http://www.secretgeek.net/lisp_truth.asp 12:39:44 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:40:23 stassats: ? 12:40:43 smik: what's up? 12:41:15 stassats: your opinion on whether should I go with PCL first and then PAIP or directly PAIP 12:42:06 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 12:42:17 I have both books with me 12:42:49 randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:43:03 smik: you could read one page from PCL and one from PAIP 12:43:05 well, i agree with Xach that it wouldn't be a much difference, though i started with PCL first 12:43:07 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-094-223-087-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:10 billitch [~billitch@dslb-094-223-087-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:14 smik: I think PAIP is longer, so you'll actually read PCL first 12:43:35 you could work out a pattern of alternating pages so you finish them at the same time 12:44:05 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:44 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:44:51 Xach: Okay! works with me. You are aware that I will read PAIP afterall. 12:46:37 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 12:46:39 I used to alternate chapters between Gentle Intro and PCL 12:46:40 Xach: Fine. I am starting with PCL 12:46:56 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:47:35 Would MOP be considered language reflection? 12:47:59 and what about this page? http://www.secretgeek.net/lisp_truth.asp 12:48:28 smik: you have to decide on your own about this page 12:48:36 smik: it's full of lies 12:48:55 stassats: I think the guy is being sarcastic 12:52:47 egoz [~Egoz@202.70.51.143] has joined #lisp 12:52:56 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:06 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:28 I can't understand any of you guys with your imperative English 12:54:13 is there a functional English? 12:54:21 no, there is only Lisp 12:54:27 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:6696:9:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:43 (and fortran, but that's the bad stuff) 12:55:35 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime 12:57:38 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:57:38 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441453.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:38 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 13:00:00 I am already enjoying SLIME. It tells me the format of the function while I am typing it 13:00:30 yeah, I miss that every time I use another language without such support 13:00:38 smik: it's very supportive. 13:01:09 smik: it took me a long time to try it, but Paredit has helped me become more productive as well. it helped to have the cheat-sheat open while i was learning it. 13:01:49 Xach: Paredit? 13:01:57 minion: paredit? 13:01:57 paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 13:02:12 One day maybe I'll make that leap 13:04:28 (incf paredit) 13:04:34 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.161] has joined #lisp 13:04:41 Hmm, I have a bit of a question on this bit of code: https://gist.github.com/f3372a335ce40389df46 How does return-from on a block that encloses a loop work in relation to the finally that's also in the loop. In other words, the execution of this code prints 'wtf', but should be returning from line 11 and am a bit confused on the control flow of this at this point. 13:05:02 I only started using it recently but I think it's a great aid 13:05:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:06:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 13:06:32 TDT: are you sure it reaches your return-from? 13:07:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:07:43 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:08:01 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:08:01 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 13:08:30 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:45 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:35 TDT: finally clauses are only triggered when the loop terminates normally (i.e. due to termination criteria or loop-finish) 13:10:33 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:11 Sounds like I"m doing something else wrong then. Thanks for the information stassats and pkhuong, I'll fumble with this a bit more. 13:15:37 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:17:17 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:17 I am hating PCL's foot note on the Web version. It needs me to scroll to the bottom of the page and then up. He could atleast provide a internal link 13:20:19 yeah, damn peter for giving out his content free in a machine-parseable format. 13:20:59 the NIL after each function is not coming in the next line but on the same one 13:22:11 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #lisp 13:22:53 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:23:07 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:19 -!- larry65 [~larry65@d122-105-198-226.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:25:44 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 13:25:45 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 13:26:03 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:27:52 minion: pcl 13:27:52 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:32:23 Joreji [~thomas@92-210.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:34:48 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:36:04 Well, it took more than 12 hours, but I've managed to fail to build SBCL-1.0.38 under qemu-system-mipsel. 13:36:24 bah. i could fail to build it much more quickly. 13:36:27 Not something I'll try again in a hurry, either. 13:37:43 Oh, hell. Bloody bots. :-/ 13:38:24 minion: paste 98770? 13:38:24 Paste number 98770: "failure to build 1.0.38 on qemu-system-mipsel" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/98770 13:38:28 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: away!] 13:41:03 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:42:00 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 13:46:28 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:50:54 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.123] has joined #lisp 13:51:01 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ztptysbkiwjvwnxn] has left #lisp 13:51:24 quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:36 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:52:47 powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:10 -!- powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:53:32 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:53:33 -!- smik [~siddhant3@175.40.43.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:54:00 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 13:56:23 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:48 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:05 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-128.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:02:38 -!- nixeagle` [~user@cpe-24-209-52-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:00 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:03:43 powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 14:03:43 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:25 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 -!- powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:55 powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:38 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:12:33 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 14:15:14 -!- kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:38 smik [~siddhant3@175.40.48.1] has joined #lisp 14:18:56 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:46 -!- smik [~siddhant3@175.40.48.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:23:26 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-joknstbgiilrllxi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:24:47 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 14:24:48 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:27:05 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:27:38 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:36 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 14:30:20 camm` [~user@tvwna-ip-c-110.princeton.org] has joined #lisp 14:30:31 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:33:45 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:50 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:57 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 14:36:53 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-jrtktsdeekwyabvu] has joined #lisp 14:40:50 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:41:04 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:42:07 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:12 remind me never to organize conferences near geologically active regions 14:42:22 where "near" is apparently "up to quite far away" 14:42:37 I must have missed something. What has happened now? 14:42:40 Krystof: so... the next one will be far from earth ? :) 14:42:42 on the Moon? 14:43:14 yeah, the moon should be rather stable on the geological side. 14:43:19 beach: well, nothing /yet/; neigbouring airspace is closed, but not (yet) UK->Portugal 14:43:26 and the travel cost should keep out the riff-raff. 14:43:28 a bit problematic to get to. but that's a small price to pay ;) 14:43:51 Krystof: This is still because of the Iceland vulcano? 14:44:03 yes 14:44:10 Krystof: not even in multiple jumps ? uk->france, then getting to portugal ? 14:44:11 Ah, OK. 14:44:44 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:44:55 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 14:45:01 it's not so much me; I should be able to get there. Some of our keynote speakers, on the other hand... 14:45:12 Krystof: Is Portuguese airspace ok? 14:45:19 as of right now, yes 14:45:27 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 14:45:33 nyef: not bad, that's pretty far. 14:45:55 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111077.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:47:07 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:48:43 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:03 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:52:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@92-210.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:52:35 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 14:53:29 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 14:53:58 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:56:44 -!- powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerj] 14:57:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:58:03 Trains rule! 14:58:05 *ASau`* hides. 14:59:10 Krystof: do you have any idea why we don't perform macroexpansion *before* storing functions' inline forms? 14:59:11 Ruby Trains? 15:00:17 pkhuong: compiler macros? 15:00:29 antifuchs: regular macros too. 15:01:02 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:01:49 it's probably standard compliant (not sure for toplevel inline functions?), but I wouldn't want some of my macros to be expanded any more often than strictly necessary. 15:02:28 regular macros, sure 15:03:01 but I would assume compiler macros would benefit from being expanded in the place where more information about their args is available 15:03:21 more information how? 15:03:30 I have no idea 15:03:41 I'm guessing from what I assume to be true about python. 15:03:52 that information isn't exposed to compiler macros. 15:04:01 ok then 15:04:05 except for constant-ness, but you still can't get to the constant value anyway. 15:04:09 sounds like strange behavior, then. 15:04:22 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:14 rrice [~rrice@76.211.6.129] has joined #lisp 15:05:44 The one case I can think of is with funcall, but that's probably picked up by the ir1-rewriting machinery (which passes through the whole source -> internal representation machinery) 15:08:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:09:02 powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 15:09:25 -!- pholious [~91750799@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbqozwtthrjclwxl] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:09:44 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:11:43 -!- powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:12 powerj [~powerj@75.60.186.128] has joined #lisp 15:12:55 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:15 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:20:30 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:20:55 kwinz [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 15:21:53 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.209] has quit [Quit: off] 15:23:13 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:18 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:21 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:46 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:24:49 Joreji [~thomas@65-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:24:57 mpr312 [~chatzilla@pool-74-101-147-57.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:25:50 seg_ [~seg@adsl-99-40-252-150.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:32:20 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:33:23 eslick [~eslick@c-76-19-65-104.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:04 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:34:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.126.31] has joined #lisp 15:35:28 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B200EA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:30 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f663160-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:36:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:22 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:16 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f663160-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 15:42:00 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:03 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:42:48 how could I define and call a function from SBCL that follows the calling convention, etc. and for which I provide the assembly instructions? 15:43:00 levente_meszaros: write a VOP 15:43:01 how difficult is that? any example? 15:43:20 not difficult. 15:43:43 I would like to build the assembly dynamically 15:43:57 write a weird VOP 15:44:01 :) 15:44:38 *Xach* has wondered sometimes about e.g. dct/idct vops 15:45:09 you can write arbitrary code in VOP's body, so it can be quite dynamic 15:45:17 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-253-108.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:51 stassats: well, EVAL is still pretty weird. 15:45:57 -!- powerj [~powerj@75.60.186.128] has quit [Quit: powerj] 15:47:42 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:47:57 powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 15:48:40 -!- powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Client Quit] 15:49:38 *levente_meszaros* tries 15:49:54 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:52:42 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-253-108.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:53:20 Joreji [~thomas@65-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:54:35 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 zeroish [~zeroish@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:50 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:01:14 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 16:03:32 -!- eslick [~eslick@c-76-19-65-104.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:03:47 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-130.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:08:10 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:05 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:42 -!- blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:13 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-195.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:43 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:14:47 Xach: dct, idct, dst, idst, fft and ifft VOPs? 16:14:57 iPac [~bubble@p54AA4547.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:45 it would be interesting to know under what circumstances sbcl couldn't optimize the written-out code based on specialized arrays 16:16:04 could someone enlighten me with an identity VOP and an identity function that uses that VOP? 16:16:43 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:17 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:41 nyef: yeah. 16:18:01 #'identity strikes me as being a particularly useless function to have a VOP for. 16:19:09 stray_hound__ [~stray@c-24-245-50-140.hsd1.wi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:39 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:20:56 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-jrtktsdeekwyabvu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:13 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:44 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22:03 nyef, the point is having something to start with 16:24:09 Joreji [~thomas@65-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:24:26 look in src/compiler/x86/ 16:24:30 there're many examples 16:25:58 nyef: I don't know if it's worth the "trouble" (or if it's actually trouble) 16:26:53 *Xach* would love to have really fast image operations on amd64 even if they're sbcl/linux specific 16:27:10 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:27:26 marioxcc [~user@200.66.25.163] has joined #lisp 16:27:42 powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:17 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:52 lejoon [~lejoon@h-63-40.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:29:55 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:30:07 eslick [~eslick@dhcp-54-59.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:31:04 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:33:28 -!- eslick [~eslick@dhcp-54-59.media.mit.edu] has left #lisp 16:34:16 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:19 what :scs should I provide in the :args and :results VOP parameters for an identity VOP? 16:34:37 if this is a valid question at all... 16:36:13 any-reg, probably 16:40:16 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.96.81] has joined #lisp 16:40:37 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:40:39 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:04 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 16:41:33 -!- powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerj] 16:42:05 I'm almost there having an identity VOP 16:43:28 but I get some nice descriptive error messages (which unfortunately I don't really understand) about TN's primitive type and allowed operand restrictions 16:43:51 my identity VOP does not work for all types of values 16:44:24 powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 16:44:42 but it's really funny that one can easily add 1 to a symbol's address and get a fixnum :) 16:45:47 -!- powerj [~powerj@2002:4b3c:ba80:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:58 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:46:18 powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:59 peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:48:18 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:28 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:52:20 levente_meszaros: primtype T. 16:52:32 -!- christop` [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:40 christop` [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:47 Primtypes are concerned with representation, not runtime values. If you have to handle anything, you probably want to work with Ts. 16:53:05 Xach: what sort of operations? 16:53:44 ah, dct stuff. Right, kernels for small transforms would make sense. 16:53:45 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:51 pkhuong: convolution, scaling, decoding/encoding to jpeg, mpeg, etc... 16:54:21 at some point, ISTM that the FFI is more productive. 16:55:13 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:14 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:58:03 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 17:01:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-219.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:01:57 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:02:16 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634139.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:57 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:03 milanj [~milanj_@81.36.161.131] has joined #lisp 17:03:38 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:45 krl [~user@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:10 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:11:22 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:13:29 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:14:02 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:28 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 17:16:11 -!- christop` [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:16:18 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:56 christop` [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:21:28 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:48 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:52 ajmrch [~asarch@189.188.139.47] has joined #lisp 17:25:20 -!- fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-39-165.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:25:56 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:29:41 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:06 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:33:28 jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has joined #lisp 17:37:08 eslick [~eslick@dhcp-18-111-27-42.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 -!- eslick [~eslick@dhcp-18-111-27-42.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:39:32 -!- peddie_ [~peddie@adsl-99-191-73-141.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:56 Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:59 peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-56-136-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 Hi everyone. I am on ccl and want to add a package. I wrote this code http://codepad.org/S266JQzg but ccl shows me > Error: There is no package named "LSH" . 17:42:00 -!- krl [~user@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 17:42:13 Lis: the DEFPACKAGE form is commented out 17:42:14 Lis: probably because you commented out the DEFPACKAGE form? 17:42:21 -!- mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:42:23 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 17:42:31 splittist: herep 17:42:34 mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:42:37 i read that a package is created if it does not exists 17:42:45 No. 17:42:47 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:52 Lis: Get a different book. 17:42:57 Lis: you might have read that in an old book. it is not the current behavior. 17:43:11 see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss195_w.htm for some context. 17:43:16 but if I commend the whole part out i get: > Error: The function FIND is predefined in Clozure CL. 17:43:28 comment out 17:43:36 fiveop [~fiveop@64.235.198.242] has joined #lisp 17:43:46 -!- milanj [~milanj_@81.36.161.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43:48 Lis: you need to name it something other than cl:find 17:43:55 Lis: it is. You've used the CL package. 17:44:00 Or you could shadow "FIND" 17:44:07 "or"? 17:44:26 Right. 17:44:55 Xach wins. 17:44:57 gigamonkey: earlier today someone was nitpicking about your PCL HTML footnotes not being hyperlinked. 17:45:15 is that a frequent complaint? i don't think i've seen it here much. 17:45:19 As far as I can tell, that's the biggest complaint anyone has about PCL. 17:45:21 I can live with that. 17:45:45 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:45:51 I think they're linked *to* the footnotes. I just never bothered generating links back to the right place in the text. 17:45:56 Lis: That code is formated in a very nonstandard way. You should make sure the formating follows current conventions. 17:45:57 Though someone wrote a Greasemonkey script to do it. 17:46:19 hello 17:46:25 hello ost` 17:46:33 -!- ost` is now known as ost 17:46:33 gigamonkey: they don't seem to be links either way. 17:47:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:47:13 Hmmm. Oh well. I was wrong. You realize it's been five years. 17:47:16 minion: pcl 17:47:17 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:47:32 I should have had a party last month. 17:47:37 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f72e5c0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:55 I had, we just didn't invite you gigamonkey, hehe 17:48:00 I/We 17:48:17 hehe can't have a party by myself 17:51:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:14 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: away] 17:56:26 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 17:57:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:57:45 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:58:11 beach code fomation is for pussys 17:58:19 i'm a c64 guy 17:58:32 Lis: But then you probably shouldn't expect any help here. 17:59:04 ah the alpha man 17:59:40 Lis: I think that was uncalled for. 17:59:47 anyway thank you for the help 17:59:59 -!- jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has quit [Quit: out://] 18:01:16 varjag_ [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:01:40 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:47 hm if I remove :use :cl I get > Error: Unbound variable: LS 18:01:48 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 Lis: I think beach was very explicit. 18:02:37 -!- Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:02:52 Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:58 anyone? 18:03:30 -!- lithper1_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:34 Lis: I told you how to fix it. Do you want help with implementing my suggestion? 18:03:50 Xach I fixed it 18:03:56 Xach reread what i wrote 18:04:23 Lis: Ok, the answer to your "remove :use :cl" is "don't do that." 18:04:36 thanks 18:05:14 Lis: perhaps you should read a bit about packages. Maybe this: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 18:05:58 i read that already 18:06:17 but the problem with "remove :use :cl is not quoted there 18:06:54 Lis: 0 is not 'false' in common lisp, either... 18:07:10 i know 18:08:22 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 18:09:11 Lis: if your package does not use the cl package, you have to be explicit when you want to use cl functions, macros, etc. 18:09:23 Lis: so you'd need (cl:defun ls ...) for example 18:10:28 isn't there an equivalent to the c++ using ; ?? 18:10:32 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 Lis: you mean only importing certain names from the CL package and not other? 18:11:02 I don't know what that does, so I don't know, sorry. 18:11:10 foom exactly 18:11:56 hmmmm 18:11:57 Lis: the short version is you do want to :use :cl. Then you need to either pick names that don't conflict with the names in the CL package or to :shadow the ones you want to use. 18:12:02 Lis: :import-from 18:12:04  18:12:05  18:12:06  18:12:15 so there is your second solution gigamonkey :D 18:12:20 Wow, that's an awesome irc cliend. 18:12:31 thanks sellout 18:12:32 t 18:12:32 You *could* :import-from but for the CL package, that's going to be more trouble than it's worth. 18:13:02 *sellout* agrees with gigamonkey  easier to shadow a few things than import a few hundred. 18:13:16 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:16 sellout: got my NaNoWriMo proof copy yesterday. 18:15:35 My advice: make the margins bigger than the minimums. 18:19:08 gigamonkey: Pretty tight in the gutter? 18:19:17 Hrmm  that sounds a bit dirty. 18:19:27 gigamonkey: How's the quality otherwise? 18:19:59 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f663160-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:20:25 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082C2C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:16 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B892.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:08 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:36 sellout: pretty good. 18:25:39 -!- MetaMucil [~Omeras@99-2-200-244.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mmmmmm donuts] 18:25:48 -!- ajmrch is now known as asarch 18:27:45 do you recommend any of these books http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=common+lisp 18:28:03 Lis: The first one. 18:28:26 And some others, but that's a great start. 18:28:35 Lis: 1, 3, 5, 6 18:28:50 14 18:29:38 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:25 10 is good too, but not to learn to program *in* Lisp. 18:32:22 hm 1 and 14 may be enought for the first time 18:32:34 thanks again... 18:35:03 still need to get around to reading AotMP 18:36:38 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:56 -!- powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerj] 18:40:26 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:10 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:23 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 18:45:30 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:51:51 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:44 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667cc9-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:03:37 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:17 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:09 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:06:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:32 billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-088-075-059-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:53 Odin- [~sbkhh@hugmyndahus.hugmyndahus.is] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:09:19 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:09:48 powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:54 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-094-223-087-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:16:02 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.94] has joined #lisp 19:22:48 -!- powerj [~powerj@adsl-75-60-186-128.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerj] 19:26:04 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:26:33 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:33 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:47 ntd` [~user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 19:31:44 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:35:22 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-128.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:45:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:47:12 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA4547.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: adios] 19:47:28 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:49:41 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:50:17 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:51:41 For using threads in CL (something I haven't ever done yet), The cl-cookbook gives one way of doing it (mp:*), but is there a library that's better to use? I'm using sbcl right now, but I have something that really is best run concurrently (k-fold cross validation on k-nearest neighbors testing on 8000 or so data elements -- fairly independent, takes a few minutes per fold, depending on split) 19:52:35 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0153-74-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53:08 <_3b> minion: tell TDT about bordeaux-threads 19:53:09 TDT: direct your attention towards bordeaux-threads: Portable shared-state concurrency for Common Lisp Bordeaux-Threads is a library to write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads 19:53:26 TDT: the very easiest way is with processes... and it scales to a cluster! 19:54:02 chicago_andy [~andy@c-24-1-117-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:25 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:38 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:54:46 question: how do I make sure debugging symbols are included in my sbcl binary / programs compiled with said binary? 19:55:20 I'm hoping to get more than just Foreign fp = (some address) in the ldb backtraces I'm getting 19:55:37 Thanks _3b - I honestly havne't done anything with threads in CL so far, and very very very little in any other language. I'm hoping I'm not asking for trouble, and will have to implement this last as a performance boost hopefully. 19:56:12 pkhuong: Yeah, I could just spawn multiple sbcls - but at the end I need to collect the output of all the computations and do results on those. I suppose.. 19:56:53 fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-39-165.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:43 pkhuong: I could have them all concatenate to a file or something. hah, then I can get into other issues. It's something I'll hvae to see if I have time for after I get the project written up and all :) 20:01:28 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:03:31 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 20:04:27 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:04:32 dunkyp [~user@188-223-2-193.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:04:37 is it possible to call a lisp function from a VOP? 20:05:31 -!- Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:05:59 any plans for some sightseeing in Lisbon tomorrow before ELS'10? 20:06:22 attila_lendvai: Oh sure, rub it in. 20:06:32 levente_meszaros: In what sense? 20:06:46 is araneida dead, I tried to compile it but it says with-enabled-interupts wasn't found in macros.lisp, sure enough it isn't there. I guess I could patch it, but is it worthwhile? 20:06:48 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:07 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:07:13 dunkyp: araneida is dead 20:07:22 sellout: is there a mailing list or anything to organize such an ad-hoc gathering? we'll land with levente at around 4pm, walking around probably at around 5pm 20:07:26 dunkyp: araneida is heartily disrecommended for new development. And it has a reputation for causing its maintainers to vanish. 20:07:41 ok cool thanks 20:07:43 attila_lendvai: No idea, I am in the US. No ELS for me. 20:08:32 attila_lendvai: I'll be hanging around the foundation, probably 20:08:34 *attila_lendvai* then finally goes to the dictionary for the word "rub" :) 20:08:53 nyef, from the assembly part of the VOP 20:09:03 until such time as Edgar or Antonio tells me that there's something more fun to do :-) 20:09:14 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:09:24 levente_meszaros: Sure, vop generator functions can call other functions. It's just lisp code at that point. 20:09:25 somehow magically emitting the necessary instructions if I can provide the arguments and all other stuff needed 20:09:52 levente_meszaros: Actually doing a full call, though, is less than recommended, you might be better off with a source-transform instead. 20:10:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:39 I'd like to call WRITE-BYTE from the resulting assembly 20:11:20 I have the stream and the byte at hand, but I don't know how could I splice in the instructions there 20:11:30 ... Do a source-transform instead? 20:11:43 Rather than trying to inline a full-call sequence. 20:12:16 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:12:37 Krystof: hrm, that was also my plan: leave packages at hotel and go straight to the venue and hang around there until something starts... i guess then we'll see you and the others there 20:12:47 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:13:04 nyef, where should I look to get closer how to do that? 20:13:53 levente_meszaros: I'll be landing at 16:45. we could meet at 18:00 20:13:59 fatblueduck [~chris@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:06 fe[nl]ix, great! 20:14:27 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:08 fe[nl]ix: ah, you're here, too! meet where? the venue? 20:15:56 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:16:03 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:16:55 Soulman [~knute@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 20:17:22 attila_lendvai: that's good for me 20:17:52 nyef, I don't see how a source-transform would help in calling write-byte from the VOP, isn't that a lisp -> lisp transformation? what do I miss? 20:19:24 I'm using functions that require non-negative non-zero numbers 20:19:39 That the function-calling sequence is best done via the existing function-calling machinery, -especially- if there's a chance of it changing in the future. 20:19:59 and so these functions are adding a value to the numbers, using the numbers, subtracting previous value from result 20:20:18 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 20:20:18 and this adding/subtracting is adding noise to my function 20:20:31 what is the best solution to this problem? 20:20:45 fatblueduck: paste an example of the noise. 20:21:12 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:23 fatblueduck: nice way to say "positive" 20:21:23 nyef, I understand that, that's why I didn't want to put in the assembly instructions that I could copy from a disassembled call to write-byte 20:21:39 levente_meszaros: what are you trying to achieve? 20:21:43 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:47 And what makes you think a single VOP is the right way to do it? 20:22:17 pkhuong, compiling brainfuck to assembly using lisp :) 20:22:38 There are ten VOPs that do function calling. Eight of them are generated via a single macro. One requires special support from a hand-written assembly-routine. The tenth is for alien functions. 20:23:15 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:23:16 There is a separate method for invoking assembly-routines. 20:23:30 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:53 ... Okay, I lied. The -eleventh- such VOP is unwind-to-frame-and-call-vop. 20:24:16 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:25:22 levente_meszaros: I'd compile brainfuck to function calls that are then translated to asm via VOPs. 20:26:10 pkhuong, the point is that I'd like to have different runtimes, so I need to compile down to assembly 20:26:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/98800 20:26:21 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:29 one of the runtimes is the one provided by SBCL 20:26:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:45 I hate posting this because it is messy but my goal is to clarify and simplify it 20:27:12 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 20:28:43 fatblueduck: change your COND clause to a WHEN clause 20:28:56 dlowe: the rest of the cond isnot included 20:29:05 ah, ok 20:29:17 pkhuong, another would be that just uses malloc, putchar and getchar, and the rest is generated by the compiler 20:29:41 but there are other conditions for when progress-type is 'gradual-begin 'gradual-end or 'gradual-both 20:30:10 this is just an experiment with a compiler infrastructure, so compiling through lisp functions would defeat it, that's why I chose VOPs 20:30:22 levente_meszaros: I don't understand, but sure. 20:31:21 fe[nl]ix: isn't '0' a positive number? 20:31:36 fatblueduck: no. 20:31:39 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:31:55 depends on who you ask. Hence strictly positive and non-negative. 20:32:07 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:32 levente_meszaros: if you know that the function calls are compiled to simple asm (and you know what it compiles to because you wrote the VOP) I don't see what you lose. 20:32:35 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:33:51 pkhuong, I'd like to be able to output an executable file that does not rely on the lisp runtime 20:34:06 hi, can I do a block with #+sbcl without #'+sbcl (progn ...) ? 20:34:12 levente_meszaros: why the VOP then? 20:34:43 because that's another "backend" where it is easy to experiment 20:35:39 ok, so what's wrong with outputting function calls that map directly to your VOPs in that backend, and doing the translation yourself if you want to output asm that you'll pass to as or what not? 20:36:03 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:36:18 Xach: new chart http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/google-visualization.html 20:36:42 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 20:37:05 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:23 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 20:38:12 pkhuong, I think because that would duplicate some code 20:38:49 but anyway, as nyef pointed out, calling a function from the VOP is doable, I just don't yet know how :) 20:39:12 Yeah... you'd duplicate code that's in Python and that you wanted to duplicate anyway. 20:39:28 certainly, but in a different way 20:43:29 where's the duplication then? 20:48:04 I don't exactly know yet... 20:48:52 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:52:40 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-211-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:01 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:53:10 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-211-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 20:53:54 jfdi. 20:53:54 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 20:54:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:55:08 laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:55:57 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 20:59:44 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-128.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:59:52 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-64-215.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:00:25 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:00 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:02:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-14-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:02:19 -!- laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 21:02:35 laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:02:35 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:04:00 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-1-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:04:35 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:03 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:07:15 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:07:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:59 seangrove [~user@cpe-76-171-251-67.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:52 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:10:32 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:36 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:19:09 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:23 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:40 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 21:20:40 -!- laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: laevus] 21:21:32 konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has joined #lisp 21:22:31 laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:22:58 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:03 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 21:26:21 -!- fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-39-165.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:26:40 -!- dunkyp [~user@188-223-2-193.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:57 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-60-170.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 21:36:47 -!- seg_ is now known as segmond 21:39:16 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-64-215.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:41:21 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:41:36 -!- lithper1_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:04 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 21:42:56 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:43:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:22 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:46 is there any way to prevent sbcl from going nuts during an interrupt when a foreign function has blocked a signal? 21:45:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:45:27 sbcl on linux on intel 21:45:42 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:01 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:20 -!- Guthur [~michael@host81-131-242-155.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:44 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:38 nurv [nurv@62.32.146.157] has joined #lisp 21:50:39 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:43 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:59 Hi. 21:52:37 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:53:31 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:53:39 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:42 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:53:48 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:02 -!- laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: good night] 21:56:25 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:31 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:57:59 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-130.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:48 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 21:59:55 hello nurv 22:00:04 [and good evening everyone] 22:00:36 Hi there, beach. :) 22:03:07 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:52 nurv: What are you working on these days? 22:05:00 *Fare* releases ASDF 2 22:05:05 Lisp-related I mean 22:05:19 1.715 is close enough, I believe 22:05:29 Fare: What are the improvements? 22:05:31 *Fare* realizes he rewrote most of the code 22:05:41 see the FAQ - it's explained 22:06:26 more portable, more configurable, more portable API, faster, fewer bugs, more documentation, backwards compatible. 22:06:40 Sounds great! 22:06:47 upgradable, versioned. 22:06:59 Excellent! 22:07:04 beach: and it doesn't use DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION! 22:07:14 Aww! 22:07:15 meaning it works with abcl 22:07:36 not an excuse for abcl not to get its shit together. 22:07:42 indeed! 22:07:51 true. 22:07:55 very true. 22:08:08 but it means ASDF works today. 22:08:50 but yeah, actively tested (on linux) with allegro ccl clisp ecl lispworks sbcl 22:09:25 Should still work with cmucl, scl. Mostly works with gclcvs (in as much as anything works there). 22:09:56 mostly untested on windows, not recently tested with cormanlisp, cmucl, scl. 22:10:15 it's working on windows on abcl. 22:10:24 although its version is a little bit older. 22:10:32 than the 715 being released now. 22:11:15 Topic insert worthy? 22:11:23 beach: sorry was a bit afk. 22:12:00 i'm working on a lisp dialect. (yeah i know, everyone does that at some point) 22:14:35 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 22:15:59 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 22:16:30 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:18:13 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:19:01 maden [~maden@dsl-159-154.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 22:20:54 nurv, what's special about it? 22:21:29 Good question. 22:21:45 It has some features not avaiable in other lisps. 22:21:59 eslick [~eslick@dhcp-54-59.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:22:07 The most prominent would be first-class environments. 22:22:41 deech [~user@24-107-146-101.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:05 Both lexical and dynamic scope for closures, and no special forms. 22:23:16 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:24 (in the sense that 'define' is not special, you can: (map define ...)) 22:23:38 But otherwise is just a playground i like tinkering with. 22:24:18 varjag_ [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:27:24 -!- deech [~user@24-107-146-101.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:27:56 there have been many lisps with first-class environment 22:27:58 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:37 MIT Scheme most famously. But plenty less famous ones, too. 22:28:48 deech [~user@24-107-146-101.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:59 what does (map define ...) mean? 22:29:58 MIT Scheme does have first-class environments. 22:30:08 But not in the same sense. 22:31:40 -!- silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:55 -!- Soulman [~knute@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:33:02 Hi all, I dabbled in CL a couple of years ago and I'd like to use it again for a native cross-platform GUI project. Since then Clojure has become more popular and the ease of hooking in to JFC/Swing is attractive , but I'd still like to use CL. Has the state of CL GUI's changed? Thanks ... 22:33:04 (map define ...) was an example, by zero special forms i mean that "if", "define", and all the core forms can be returned from a primitive, stored in data structures and so on, like all other primitives. 22:33:09 The reason you can't map defun in CL is because it's a macro, not because it's special. 22:33:48 foom: Consider also 'if', 'lambda', and all other core forms. 22:34:14 -!- Faed [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:34:48 deech: do you know about cl-gtk2 22:35:32 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:41 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-206.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:35:52 adeht: I remember looking into it sometime ago, I also remember that it was hard to install using ASDF and harder to get running. 22:35:57 Anyways, I'd recommend TCL: it's a very nice lisp. 22:36:12 deech: ASDF doesn't install things 22:36:13 foom: uh, not THAT nice. 22:36:15 Hell no. 22:36:21 TCL is quite a mess. 22:36:42 I don't like it's "everything is a string" paradigm. 22:36:46 deech, asdf won't install anything for you, but once it's installed, it will help you use it. 22:36:55 For a second I thought that TCL was some other Common Lisp implementation I hadn't heard of. 22:37:06 deech: :) 22:37:20 it's not quite a mess, it's a very elegant language 22:37:48 fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:26 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B200EA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:38 My only concern is that I can get things working on my development machine, but a cl-gtk app is hard to install for the end-user. 22:38:45 -!- camm` [~user@tvwna-ip-c-110.princeton.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:13 deech: you just save an image and that's it 22:39:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:39:34 Guthur [~michael@host86-137-237-51.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 adeht: And the end-user just needs to have the GTK .dll / .so files? 22:40:01 deech: you provide it in a .zip file 22:40:13 deech: but I understand that you just don't want to deal with all this 22:40:25 deech: so maybe you should just go back to Clojure 22:40:39 deech: use ABCL? 22:40:53 deech: common lisp in the jvm 22:40:57 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:07 ehu: I haven't checked that out yet. 22:41:37 I mean, TCL has a smaller syntax than CL, that's gotta be worth something. :) 22:42:34 ehu, adeht: Thanks for your help! 22:43:05 deech: welcome. If you want more about using abcl, #abcl --> over there. 22:44:21 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:46:48 Fare: I will make sure we update to ASDF2-the-release before releasing ourselves. I'm surprised you released today; I was expecting a release in maybe 2 weeks 22:47:00 because I was told you'd release around the middle of the month 22:47:17 it's a pre-release -- beta-test before the actual release 22:48:06 I want to get feedback from all implementations, then include any appropriate patches, then do another pre-release if there were any significant changes (hopefully not), and iterate till release 22:48:47 ah. ok. 22:49:08 well, we'll include it. 22:49:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:52:05 twopoint718 [~chris@adsl-76-208-67-219.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:21 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 22:57:06 moljac024 [~bojan@77.46.166.22] has joined #lisp 22:57:17 where could i download clisp compiled for windows? 22:57:25 moljac024: on the homepage. 22:57:33 pkhuong: i can't find it 22:57:51 i downloaded the official tar.gz but i don't see a win32 compiled clisp 22:59:21 http://clisp.cons.org/ <- search for win32 22:59:24 anybody know how up-to-date sbcl-internals.cliki.net is kept? 22:59:30 chicago_andy: not really. 22:59:34 (up to date) 22:59:41 night 22:59:42 Not that things change much. 23:00:14 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:00:16 right 23:00:20 but when they do, man 23:00:45 like what? 23:00:54 signal handling in this case 23:01:14 I don't think anything's really changed in that area in a couple years. 23:01:17 moljac024: or try http://sourceforge.net/projects/clisp/files/ 23:01:39 it's changed recent enough 23:01:48 What has changed? 23:02:04 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:02:04 sbcl now bails if some signal handlers are blocked 23:02:22 basically, a foreign function call results in a blocked signal 23:02:29 another signal is raised 23:02:41 doesn't even have to be the same signal 23:03:02 but sbcl can't figure out what to do because signal 13 is blocked 23:03:11 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@64.235.198.242] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:03:41 1.0.25 never had the check that dumps sbcl into ldb in that scenario 23:03:44 and later versions do 23:03:56 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:15 this impacts anything using libpq for communication to a postgres server 23:04:53 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:08 You could block sigpipe with sbcl's machinery. 23:05:35 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:06:05 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:17 wait, why does sbcl care if 13 is blocked? 23:06:34 I would like to know that 23:06:39 I'm sure there's a reason 23:06:42 what's the error message? 23:06:44 foom: i think the issue is if the mask isn't what it expects. 23:06:58 adeht: thanks, that second link worked 23:07:14 some deferrable signals blocked, some unblocked 23:07:31 comes from all_signals_blocked_p in interrupts.c 23:07:58 to use it, i just unpack it somewhere and run clisp.exe, right? no extra steps needed? I can't test on a windows machine now 23:08:56 1.0.26.15 23:08:56 huh. 23:09:02 that seems like...an unfortunate change. 23:09:57 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:10:07 got any more insight foom? 23:11:07 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:13:02 chicago_andy: does the blocking happen only locally, or is sigpipe ignored all the time? 23:13:28 I'd assume it blocks it around critical operations. 23:13:43 lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 23:13:45 (or, e.g. whenever you're in its C calls) 23:13:59 sigpipe is only ignored for the libpq c calls yes 23:14:02 blocking signals is a friendly way to ignore them 23:14:12 since it's thread-local, unlike setting the signal handler to ignore. :) 23:14:41 chicago_andy: but for all such calls, or only during some operations? 23:14:55 You could block all blockable signals around libpq calls. 23:15:02 probably 23:15:09 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-159-154.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:23 wait 23:15:28 that would be a bit overkill though 23:15:29 block all blockable signals 23:15:50 chicago_andy: that is, call sbcl's block_blockable_signals 23:15:58 right 23:16:12 but I can't just have sbcl block sigpipe around the call 23:16:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:16:19 has to be all blockable signals? 23:16:23 yes 23:16:43 chicago_andy: except the one we use internally for GC. 23:17:00 mega could probably explain why these additional sanity checks were needed; as a wild guess, I'd assume he didn't want to save and restore an arbitrary number of sigmasks. 23:17:04 what ill effects will that rain on my head? 23:17:54 maybe you'd want block_deferrable_signals instead of block_blockable_signals? not sure 23:18:12 that would work 23:18:18 mebbe 23:18:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 23:19:40 but if one of those sigs happen while in the libpq call, it won't make it's way back to lisp then, will it? 23:19:53 foom: right, deferrable doesn't block GC. 23:20:02 chicago_andy: right. What do you use them for? 23:20:11 good question 23:20:33 basically it just means SIGINT won't give you a lisp prompt in the middle of a libpq call 23:20:47 I have sbcl in ldb because something issued a sigalrm durn one of these libpq calls 23:20:58 I suppose that's not all that bad 23:21:03 the sigint thing that is 23:21:07 well, your timer won't go off either 23:21:18 that could be bad 23:21:34 during, not durn 23:21:38 chicago_andy: might be a good thing for those timers to only happen once the foreign call has completed, though. 23:21:38 I mean: it'll go off, but not until after the libpq call finishes. 23:21:57 (or to use a dedicated thread for those) 23:22:22 Anyways, this all seems pretty crappy. It'd be better if SBCL saved and then restored the state of the blockable signals, instead of blocking and then unblocking them. 23:22:38 foom: recursive signals... 23:22:41 er, saved+blocked, and then restored. 23:23:10 We'd just be repeating the interrupt stack madness. 23:23:18 Do'nt understand 23:23:39 maden [~maden@dsl-159-87.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 23:24:14 well, how many sigmasks must we be ready to save and restore? 23:24:37 egoz_ [~Egoz@202.70.51.143] has joined #lisp 23:24:52 I don't know; Signal handlers already have the kernel doing the save/restore with sigaction's sa_mask. 23:25:08 but we can't take advantage of that. 23:25:31 no? 23:25:35 Our lisp signal handlers arrange for the sighandler to return into executing the user's handler. 23:25:42 It's awful. 23:26:19 Yeah...I remember that, but I don't recall what the purpose was. 23:26:21 But we *do* use sa_mask. 23:26:43 All that because we want to allow users to write signal handlers in a style pretty much identical to C. 23:26:47 I guess we just can't use the "restore" part. 23:26:50 -!- kwinz [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27:35 how does "in a style identical to C" require that magic? 23:28:05 it can execute user code within the sighandler just as easily as magicing up a return. 23:28:06 some other managed languages support signals with an event loop instead. 23:29:05 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-159-87.aei.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:01 Not sure what signal-related badness faking return does, but it's the whole idea that we want signals to interrupt the thread in an arbitrary place to call a function that seems like a lossy design proposition to me. 23:30:10 -!- eslick [~eslick@dhcp-54-59.media.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: Reverting to analog] 23:30:14 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:30:54 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 23:31:04 is there anything I could read to enlighten myself on the matter? 23:31:20 It's nice that the capability is available, but it's always a good idea to use sparingly 23:31:24 maden [~maden@dsl-159-87.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 23:32:31 foom: as far as I can tell, it's used for sprof and lazy loading tricks. The rest (and maybe mprotect for lazy loading too) could be handled by an event queue... which is seemingly the sane way to do it with threads anyway. 23:32:56 pkhuong: you just mean inside SBCL? 23:33:32 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:42 no, at large. 23:34:03 wait, people do lazy loading tricks with signals? 23:34:09 what's that? 23:34:17 well they have to grab SIGSEGV. 23:34:28 ah, ok 23:35:13 One dude at SRI. 23:35:44 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:51 yea, most signals would be better off permanently blocked, and handled with signalfd (which unfortunately is linux-only) 23:37:10 -!- twopoint718 [~chris@adsl-76-208-67-219.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:12 -!- egoz_ [~Egoz@202.70.51.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:38:59 foom: so instead we install our own handlers that only write to a pipe? 23:39:53 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:42:03 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 23:43:53 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:10 is there an understood reason why it's not ok to have a deferrable signal blocked from the foreign side of things? 23:44:49 is it a decent enough sanity check the rest of the time or something? 23:44:58 chicago_andy: as I wrote earlier, I don't think we always save the old sigmask. 23:45:35 So mega preferred to die instead of restoring the wrong sigmask and then having code fail in weird unexpected ways. 23:46:00 oh ok 23:46:28 so normally that's a sign that something somewhere else did something bad 23:46:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:49 within sbcl 23:46:54 not at all. Just that the world isn't exactly as the runtime expects it. 23:47:02 ok 23:47:13 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night (cya at European Lisp Symposium 2010!!!)] 23:47:20 Arguably, the runtime has very precise expectations. 23:52:42 I suppose there's not going to be a good way to discern whether an already blocked signal (due to nothing amiss) can be ignored, is there? 23:52:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:53:21 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:53:22 I'd really consider blocking all of these ahead of time, with SBCL's routines. 23:53:41 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:54:29 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@hugmyndahus.hugmyndahus.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 23:56:19 maden_ [~maden@dsl-159-87.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 23:57:55 -!- fade is now known as Fade 23:59:05 maden__ [~maden@dsl-159-87.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 23:59:47 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-159-87.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]