00:01:11 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:15 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:30 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:01:58 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:03:44 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-151-164-189.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:05 Guthur [~Michael@host86-145-186-155.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:44 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-151-164-189.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:42 -!- cenazoic [~Cena2@173-8-125-206-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:24 cenazoic [~Cena2@173-8-125-206-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:11:10 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:12:08 -!- cenazoic [~Cena2@173-8-125-206-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 00:12:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:53 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:13:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:15:48 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:17 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:18:41 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 00:20:56 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:14 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:48 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:25:44 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: quotemstr] 00:26:59 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:44 Fare: can't do pcall for slot fillers in the defsystem.... they have to be #.'ed in... 00:32:35 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:36 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:29 why use anything but keywords there? 00:38:12 maden_ [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:38:48 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:39:23 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:39:48 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-186.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:39:59 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:40:05 seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:11 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:44:38 -!- synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-227-141.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:46:42 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.78] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:46:47 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:48:18 lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 00:50:16 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:54:14 Is there actually a guideline of sorts of when to defun with &key and when &optional suffices? 00:54:20 Fare: not so much for the slot names, but the slot values... 00:55:04 What is considered good style there? 00:55:05 Sikander: optional arguments are a pain in the neck if you may want different combinations (e.g., default for two of them and your choice for the third). 00:55:28 Sikander: If you have three independent arguments, it's hard to order them for optional... 00:56:40 Sikander: also, if there are a lot of arguments, it's easier for the caller to keep track of them with keywords. 00:56:47 Okay, quiz time: name me--if you care to--some classic computer books known for by their authors' names (possibly abbreviated), e.g. K&R, CLRS, Abelson & Sussman, ... 00:57:25 Steele 00:57:33 Hopcroft & Ullman 00:57:38 Is that CLTL? Or Harbison and Steele? 00:57:58 CLTL.. 00:58:16 Actually, arbitrary permutations and combinations of Aho, Hopcroft & Ullman 00:58:34 rpg: ;-) 00:59:35 rpg: Yes, I understand. Nevertheless, in many lisp projects, I see people sometimes using &key and sometimes &optional; they don't seem to adhere to some style 00:59:35 Or I can't deduce one from it 00:59:35 rpg: Considering your argument, would you suggest _never_ using &optional and _always &key? 00:59:44 do they have to have multiple names? 00:59:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:26 Sikander: if someone hasn't said it yet, don't combine &optional with &key 01:00:37 And ignore the three (?) functions in CL that do that. 01:01:18 gigamonkey: Yeah, I read that advice some time ago, and indeed am avoiding that. Thanks 01:01:30 Sikander: if in doubt, use &key 01:01:52 My experience tends to be that I use an &optional argument when there's just one and then pretty soon I want another, and after a while I end up switching them all to &key. 01:03:14 -!- maden_ [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:41 Yeah, that's what's happening to me right now. Annoying, though, because I have some other code that depends on this code I'm now changing... 01:04:00 *Sikander* hates his internet connection. 01:05:12 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:05:39 eslick [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:09 eslick_ [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:16 -!- eslick [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 01:06:32 even with gethash & co, traversing the large system takes 17 seconds... 01:07:12 synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-227-141.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:41 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:06 LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 01:08:12 -!- eslick_ [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 01:08:40 eslick [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:03 Sikander: &optional is handy for very simple, single options, IMO. 01:11:54 gigamonkey: Never know WHAT you mean with "Knuth", but it's probably The Art of Comptuer Programming 01:11:56 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A9C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:12:01 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:12:12 Keene, Petzold... 01:12:58 Ok, thanks 01:14:10 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 01:14:28 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:15:00 -!- benny [~benny@87.122.25.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:40 benny [~benny@87.122.25.255] has joined #lisp 01:18:38 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.62.117] has quit [] 01:18:52 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356EFC5.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:22:27 Guthur_ [~Michael@host86-145-186-155.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:31 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host86-145-186-155.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:45 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 01:23:14 -!- eastwind [~seg@adsl-99-29-144-168.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:35:20 So, I'm trying to sort out the :bug-353 and :bug-346 situation on ppc, and I've managed to get bug-353 to pass... But the bug-346 code is producing a truncated backtrace, and I'm coming to the conclusion that the mystery isn't the truncated backtrace, but why the backtrace -isn't- truncated... 01:36:24 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:36:47 k0rn [~k0rn@68.200.247.38] has joined #lisp 01:36:58 -!- k0rn [~k0rn@68.200.247.38] has left #lisp 01:38:02 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 01:38:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:38:17 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:24 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:18 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:41:47 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 01:41:55 pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has joined #lisp 01:42:27 gigamonkey: Garey and Johnson... 01:47:29 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-42-136.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:47:54 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:51 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-37-147.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:53:06 Phoodus [foo@174-22-192-234.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:53 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:19 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:55:40 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2/20100222071121]] 01:55:49 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host86-145-186-155.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 01:56:14 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-146.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 01:58:23 plists seem more amenable to optimizations like cdr-coding than alists. 01:58:36 rpg: never heard of Garey & Johnson. But Google knows. 01:59:04 Theory --- if you gotta think about NP-hardness you gotta have it... 01:59:18 Yeah. I try not to think about that. ;-) 01:59:34 adeht: which book is "Petzold". Doesn't he have a bunch? 01:59:38 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 01:59:44 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-251-186.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:00:50 gigamonkey: he has a few, but _the_ Petzold book is the Windows 95 Programming one 02:01:04 er, Programming Windows 95 02:01:27 a.k.a. "Programming Windows" 02:01:33 http://www.charlespetzold.com/pw5/ 02:02:05 I suppose there's also the Richter one 02:02:09 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:02:38 you can google for "Petzold book" 02:03:20 or rather, "The Petzold book" 02:03:35 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:04:12 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:04:15 Zhivago: "optimisations" ;) 02:05:00 Zhivago: there was this thread in c.l.l once where it was claimed that alists were more cache-friendly 02:05:31 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:06:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:06:52 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 02:06:57 adeht: you know what's cache friendly? not chasing pointers when vectors will do (: 02:07:14 -!- benny [~benny@87.122.25.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:07:20 not cache-friendly, I misremembered 02:07:32 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:53 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/063f07c7a9991182/9e9214f4cf543288?hl=en#9e9214f4cf543288 02:10:23 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:12:17 wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:33 -!- wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:12:39 wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:43 -!- wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:17 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:14:14 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:34 benny [~benny@i577A8545.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:21:44 -!- LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Good bye] 02:22:19 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:23:47 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:25:45 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:28:25 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:44 konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 -!- proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:30 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:34:03 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:34:19 -!- pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:36:12 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.196.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:36:19 phnglui_ [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:09 -!- phnglui [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:38:12 -!- phnglui_ is now known as phnglui 02:38:17 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:53 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 02:41:04 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 02:43:57 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:44:10 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-146.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:44:33 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:35 this is unbelievable, the Damas' paper (the one after which the Hindley-Milner-Damas algorithm is called) is nowhere on the intarwebs -- not even for money! 02:45:18 "Type assignment in programming languages", 1985 02:45:46 not a single search engine knows about the pdf 02:46:09 how do people typically deal with that? 02:46:22 nunb_ [~nundan@59.178.196.134] has joined #lisp 02:47:21 find a professor who was there in 1985. they probably still have it on their desk. 02:49:47 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:51:21 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:52:25 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:53:08 lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 02:54:02 -!- eslick [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:55:35 deepfire: most phd thesis aren't numerised. 02:56:02 xinming [~hyy@125.109.255.45] has joined #lisp 02:56:35 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 02:56:38 -!- nunb_ [~nundan@59.178.196.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:57:48 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:58:24 lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 02:59:14 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@125.109.250.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:00:57 nunb_ [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 03:02:52 pkhuong, but this is, arguably, an important one.. 03:03:24 later works are probably more useful. 03:04:35 what work would you suggest, then? 03:05:52 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:06:01 Sulzmann's on HM(X), Pottier in the same vein. 03:06:43 look at the bibliographie in TAPL and ATTAPL. 03:06:52 (and the bibliography). 03:08:43 The modern treatment is much clearer, since it considers the generation of constraints (as a syntax-directed process) and the solving of these constraints separately. 03:10:26 And let-polymorphism isn't taken for granted, which simplifies the algorithm a lot, even for regular polymorphic types. 03:11:39 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:18:59 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:21:32 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 03:25:12 jcowan pasted "Whatever it is, I'm against it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98581 03:28:22 what is let-polymorphism, already? 03:28:28 pkhuong, what isn't taken for granted -- the polymorphism, or the restriction added by the let-polymorphism over usual polymorphism? 03:28:46 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-147.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 03:29:00 Fare, the kind of polymorphism exercised in ML 03:29:21 type variables cannot be instantiated to polymorphic types 03:29:44 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:47 but this isn't the only restriction 03:30:33 there's another, that let allows more polymorphism than lambda, but I don't quite understand what it is 03:31:38 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:05 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:21 as I read the Milner's paper now, it appears to say that the second restriction is that you cannot instantiate types for variables bound by lambda /at all/ 03:35:22 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:25 no, wrong 03:37:54 almost 8AM, must sleep 03:41:04 pkhuong, is there a way one can has the Sulzmann paper you mentioned without shelling out monies? 03:41:57 I assumed it's the "HM(X) Type Inference is CLP(X) Solving" dated 2008, right? 03:43:04 nunb [~nundan@59.178.217.191] has joined #lisp 03:45:06 -!- nunb_ [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:48:52 ... the consensus is that symbol's starting with #\% are internal stuff, right? 03:49:48 *deepfire* finds "A modern eye on ML type inference" - http://gallium.inria.fr/~fpottier/publis/fpottier-appsem-2005.pdf 03:51:05 p_l: %magic% %%more-magic%% are the conventions, as I understand them. 03:51:59 Zhivago: right. I just got one of those referenced not only from another package, but from completely different project... and I suspect the original was created through groveling 03:52:21 MORE GROVELLING 03:52:34 *deepfire* shuts down brain for maintenance 03:52:56 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.229.72] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:53:05 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:33 Blkt``` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 03:57:26 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 03:57:30 hello 03:59:34 hello ost 03:59:41 [and good morning everyone!] 03:59:53 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-247-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:00:34 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:54 good morning beach 04:01:08 up at 6? 04:01:21 yeah, a bit later than usual. 04:02:19 eep! 04:05:29 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:05:32 eslick [~eslick@70-36-140-179.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:58 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:10:05 -!- drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:11:43 -!- Blkt``` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-245-43.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night] 04:12:20 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:14 evening folks. what's new and exciting in the #lisp world? 04:18:03 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:44 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 04:25:12 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.217.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:25:24 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:25:48 nunb [~nundan@59.178.219.98] has joined #lisp 04:26:44 Hello slyrus! I don't know, it depends on how long ago you looked. 04:27:13 oh, i've been lurking here and there. out of touch for a while though. how's Bx? 04:27:28 slyrus: The spring is definitely here. 04:29:12 slyrus: Are you going to ELS? 04:29:34 no, my travel is pretty much limited to work related stuff at the moment 04:29:52 How is the company doing? 04:32:54 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 04:32:54 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Quit: palter] 04:33:17 rpg: you still here? 04:33:38 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:42 minion: memo for rpg: I just noticed that Amazon has the Garey/Johnson book categorize in "Books > Computers & Internet > Programming > APIs & Operating Environments > Device Drivers" 04:34:42 Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks. 04:34:45 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:36:04 mbd [~user@202.80.41.159] has joined #lisp 04:37:13 does anyone know if Lisp is still use at NASA ? 04:38:55 I don't, but NASA is pretty big, so I am convinced *someone* there is using it. 04:40:15 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:15 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:40:15 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:40:48 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.88.254] has joined #lisp 04:42:16 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:44:35 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 04:48:11 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.88.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:48:25 Who is responsible for sbcl.deb package just wondering if there is a plan for update to latest sbcl 04:48:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-otooodlrcpdxxian] has joined #lisp 04:49:18 *ost* shrugs 04:49:56 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:51:02 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:54:17 Okay, so what's the best way to use the interwebs to figure out of two famous people (say Peter Norvig and Hal Abelson) know each other personally? 04:55:23 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:23 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:55:23 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:55:46 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 04:57:09 Email those people and ask them! 04:58:22 -!- mbd [~user@202.80.41.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:39 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 04:59:39 fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-39-165.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:55 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:53 Oddity: Well, that'd be one way. I was trying to avoid that. 05:05:56 proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 05:06:48 :) 05:07:07 I'm not sure what you could do besides Googling for their names 05:07:32 pers [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:47 Yeah, the problem with that is Googling those two names yields lots of hits but none that show any particular connection; they're just mentioned together a lot. 05:09:10 I was hoping for finding a jointly-authored paper or something but no dice. 05:09:37 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:12:14 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:12:43 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-99-162-100-58.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:25 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:45 quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:57 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:11 Gah! Preserving the order of evaluation can get pretty complicated in a compiler macro! 05:26:01 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-otooodlrcpdxxian] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:28:25 as in any macro.. 05:29:16 Yeah. This *feels* more complicated though. 05:29:47 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:14 (I guess I could generate things like (let ((x ...) (y ...) ...) (f y x)) 05:34:41 gigamonkey: considering the community and its famous people, chances are the do know each other personnaly. 05:35:38 The easiest way to check, besides asking them, is to look for a conference where both would have published an article. 05:36:39 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:59 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:38:30 Look for variability in the subject of email in which the names are co-occurrent. 05:38:38 s/email/documents/ 05:38:42 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:39:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:39:26 If they are only professionally related, then you would expect a smaller topic signature. 05:41:24 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:42:15 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:45:08 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-156.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:45:19 reprore [~reprore@p4b216c.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:45:31 In a wget call through sbcl, most often a dot is inserted in the result?! 05:45:38 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:47 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:47:12 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jfttojdwaijiixti] has joined #lisp 05:49:33 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:33 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:49:33 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 05:50:40 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:24 quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:02 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:53:14 Fare: the special traverse is there because poiu doesn't TRAVERSE at all 05:53:46 Fare: IIRC, its traverse operates on a module level 05:53:58 this ensures that parallel operations on components can actually happen 05:55:44 TRAVERSE serializes: it creates a list of operations to run on components; since we wanted them to happen in parallel, I thought it would be best to have the compile-op/load-op for the containing module make the decision when stuff should be happening. 05:56:00 ok. I indeed tried to remove it, utterly failed, instead rewrote it to note append endlessly but do a one-pass collect. 05:56:24 sounds good 05:56:25 so what do you use the TRAVERSE for? 05:56:39 just to have a queue of things to do? 05:56:41 it's just a stub, really, as asdf's OOS uses it 05:57:08 (or was it OPERATE?) 05:57:40 it's there to satisfy the asdf protocol; just determines which systems/modules to operate in-parallel on, in which order) 05:58:02 hum. 05:58:31 oh, so the only reason it's there is so the last element be (PARALLEL-LOAD-OP foo) 05:58:50 why not return that as the only element? 05:59:32 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:00:34 thanks to my asdf maintainership, I added the required hooks to ASDF, and gutted most of POIU 06:02:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jfttojdwaijiixti] has left #lisp 06:02:48 POIU is quite close to POILU (french) :) 06:03:04 and it made the war, indeed 06:04:49 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:07:16 Fare: I'm not sure what the reason was to not do it this way - I think it might have been to do with module and system dependencies 06:08:09 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:09:06 ok 06:09:19 I hadn't heard the term poilu until now, but it seems strangely fitting (-: 06:09:37 -!- synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-227-141.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:10:00 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:10:46 poilu of course also means hairy, though 06:15:27 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 06:17:16 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 06:22:02 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:24:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:25:36 attila_lendvai__ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:26:29 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-158-121.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:06 Can someone point me to the section in the CLHS where it says what happens if a function call contains the same keyword argument more than once? 06:28:54 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:07 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 06:31:04 beach: 3.4.1.4 If more than one such argument pair matches, the leftmost argument pair is used. 06:31:28 It may not say that explicitly, but then it doesn't say it for required arguments either, or LET, I believe 06:31:31 mal__: uhm no 06:31:53 they wanted to be able to do the (funcall foo :key1 var1 *default-args*) trick 06:31:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:32:02 Read what beach asked 06:32:13 oh sorry 06:32:17 it's me who's unable to read 06:32:22 crawling back in my hole 06:32:33 mal__: Thanks, reading now... 06:33:23 beach: I don't remember where it is, but the first occurrence (from left) wins 06:34:09 I thought it was about multiple &key parameter with the same name in the lambda list 06:35:28 Fare: Yeah, thanks. 06:35:45 mal__: Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for. 06:36:23 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:42 -!- dknight [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:37:32 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 06:44:05 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:44:31 good morning 06:44:49 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:23 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 06:47:09 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:09 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:47:09 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 06:47:18 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:49:20 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:49:57 hello mvilleneuve 06:51:08 codeassembly [~givan@188.25.61.136] has joined #lisp 06:52:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:52:52 -!- attila_lendvai__ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:52:55 -!- attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:53:25 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 06:53:25 delYsid [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 06:53:28 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:56:19 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:00:54 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:01:19 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:02 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754636.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:35 -!- kami`` is now known as kami` 07:02:54 -!- kami` is now known as kami 07:03:23 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:05:03 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:19 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 07:05:26 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:05:47 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-151-164-189.range86-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:07:31 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:46 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:08:03 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:13:18 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 07:14:17 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:32 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-154-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:17:00 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:21:04 if I set :error nil, then the dot will go away. Guess default, stderr is intertwined with stdout. 07:21:38 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 07:21:38 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Quit: palter] 07:22:20 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:22:28 lhz: why are you using wget and not drakma? 07:23:17 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:23:59 stassats`: I'm prototyping for an embeded platform running clisp. It seems run-program's manual doesn't specify what the default of :error is. :output default is NIL for examle. 07:26:39 stassats`: thanks anyway, I will use drakma elsewhere. Run-program feels evil. 07:30:25 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:31:43 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 07:32:12 -!- lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:37 Fare: we fixed the stack inconsistency issue with ASDF2 on abcl yesterday. Hopefully any remaining differences between the original and ours can be eliminated now. 07:35:13 what difference? 07:35:19 I welcome patches! 07:35:41 Fare: there was a bug in abcl which prevented correct compilation of GET-UID 07:35:55 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:18 as it turns out, there was a bug in abcl which was inlining READ-LINE, but forgot to discard the return value if that was unused 07:36:28 is the upstream asdf now working on abcl? 07:37:12 From what I understand, this was the only issue Mark Evenson had when integrating the upstream version 07:37:43 if you have any local patch, send it to me for integration upstream. 07:38:47 will do. 07:39:47 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.89.48] has joined #lisp 07:41:52 -!- pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:42:19 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:06 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:45:56 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.138] has joined #lisp 07:46:01 mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:48:37 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.89.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:49:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-oxyoybtxbytibvdf] has joined #lisp 07:51:45 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Damn cable pluggers] 07:51:48 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bcxcqhmgmwtqtdve] has joined #lisp 07:52:57 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:09 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:47 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:01:53 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:21 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:06:29 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:29 pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has joined #lisp 08:10:03 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:11:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:12:15 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-248-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:45 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:13:52 hmm. it looks like he used a solution which allowed asdf to remain unchanged 08:17:09 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:41 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:20:27 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:20:58 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:21:28 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 08:23:09 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:23:29 thom_logn 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[~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:31 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 09:13:22 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:14:12 -!- wbraun [~wolfgang@p5B202375.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:14:45 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:16:19 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:21 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B202375.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:18:04 fe[nl]ix: around? 09:19:36 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:21:17 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:22:22 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:35 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:24:56 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:24:58 -!- kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:25:24 vk [~vk@ppp-94-64-208-167.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:25:50 Hello! Could you help me with packages? I've read Xach's tutorial but still have problem :S 09:25:54 mrSpec pasted "packages" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98588 09:26:29 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:34 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:27:06 -!- vasandgvd [~vk@ppp-94-64-209-61.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:27:07 what did I wrong? 09:27:24 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:28:15 mrSpec: did you eval the defpackage form? 09:28:18 mrSpec: did you compile the defpackage? 09:28:18 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:29:10 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:21 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:29:31 eval hmm no I didnt 09:29:44 you have an .asd, why not just load the system? 09:30:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754636.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:47 eval, compile, that's what ASDF is for 09:31:21 ok I've evaled & compiled package.lisp now I have only "package "PCRE-LEXER" not found" 09:31:54 did you load the pcre-lexer package? 09:32:10 Ah, I have to load them manully? 09:32:18 no, you have to load the asd system! 09:32:19 ok 09:32:22 you didn't do that 09:32:33 stassats`: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'tk) ? 09:32:50 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:51 yes 09:33:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:33:23 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:34:02 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:34:50 and you don't need to do anything by hand, like C-c C-k, etc. 09:35:40 yeah, It works, thanks! 09:35:48 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 09:36:13 no more (require '...) :D 09:37:40 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:38:01 in many implementations (asdf:oos ...) can be done as (require 'tk) 09:38:09 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B335.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:11 which looks shorter, so, one require more! 09:39:06 hehe ok ;) 09:40:06 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:40:08 and then there is slime-asdf, with ,load-system 09:41:18 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:41:25 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:48 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.219.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:41:52 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:43:32 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-cxhdibwkxfszhevp] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:45:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:46:55 kwinz_ [~kwinz@e195-176.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:47:10 kami [~user@p5B20C8D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:36 -!- kami [~user@p5B20C8D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:47:36 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:48:57 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 09:51:30 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:08 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:44 hello lispers 09:54:23 hello kiuma 09:54:33 -!- kwinz_ [~kwinz@e195-176.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:12 one more question, how can I change the directory where asdf load is lookng for files? 09:55:33 It wants package file in ~/ 09:56:36 asdf:*central-registry* is a list of paths 09:58:59 it's handy to add to that in your lisp init file 09:59:15 (after (require 'asdf) or (load )) 09:59:30 ok thanks 09:59:50 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 10:01:12 I got some code up on github if anyone wants to check it out -> http://github.com/bytecolor/md2-view 10:01:25 it's an Id MD2 model viewer 10:01:33 ah, when I'll use (:file "./package") everything is fine. 10:01:52 it's not fine 10:01:58 stassats`: not? 10:02:20 yes 10:02:20 I just started learnig git about a half hour ago, so it may very well be fubar 10:02:22 so add this path to *central-registry* is better? 10:02:41 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:02:55 shouldn't having cffi depend on trivial-features and trivial-features on cffi create problems? (reading the asd files before installing atm) 10:02:56 bytecolor: huh, and screenshots? 10:03:11 mrSpec: files are relative to where .asd is located 10:03:37 you only need to modify *central-registry* so that it can find .asd files 10:03:51 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:03:56 it's usually done by symlinking all .asd into one directory 10:04:15 more specifically, *central-registry* holds _directory_ paths inwhich .asd files are found 10:04:42 and on windows, *central-registry* needs to be set for every place you need to look, due to no symlinks 10:04:48 symlinking :) I'll do it. 10:04:56 more precisely, *central-registry* holds forms, which, when evaluated, should produce pathnames 10:05:19 it holds actual unevaluated forms? 10:05:34 or path designators? 10:06:28 jdz: well, it's just an onengl window with model in it 10:06:42 what's a "unevaluated form"? 10:07:09 well, something like '(+ 1 1), which is actually eval'd 10:07:13 bytecolor: yes, and put a code that caused that window to appear in an emacs window next to it 10:07:59 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:08:04 Phoodus: it's EVALuated, as i said 10:08:30 huh 10:08:49 so you could get quite dynamic with it 10:11:41 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:17:17 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-185-49.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 10:22:26 -!- pers [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:24:21 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:58 fiveop: it's only trivial-features-tests that depends on CFFI 10:26:19 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:26:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:27:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:28:50 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-156.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:56 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-247.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:30:37 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:34:50 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 10:35:34 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:38:01 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:26 Is this a valid solution to removing the constant redefining errors I get?: (defmacro defconst (c v) `(unless (boundp ',c) (defconstant ,c ,v))) 10:39:43 I saw something like that once, but can't locate it 10:40:05 a) use defvar 10:40:31 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:40:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:40:57 stassats`: but I want the constant to be a... constant, read-only 10:41:21 bytecolor: then don't modify it 10:41:27 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:41:29 stassats`: ahahah 10:41:40 He's actually being serious 10:41:53 still funny ;) 10:41:53 hello 10:42:20 i use constants only for optimization 10:42:21 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:42:53 beach: pong 10:43:14 fe[nl]ix: I had forgotten the name of our hotel in Lisbon, but I found it. 10:43:23 bytecolor: you have (defmacro v->l (v) `(map 'list #'identity ,v)) but that's just (coerce x 'list) 10:44:03 hrm 10:44:45 Guthur pasted "constant" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98594 10:44:49 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:45:18 That's not mine, it was used in squirrl, which is one of sykopomps projects 10:45:29 bytecolor: "loop for v being each element in vertices do" is not a valid loop 10:45:29 I think he got it from somewhere else as well 10:46:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-oxyoybtxbytibvdf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46:03 Guthur: ah the fine manual 10:46:05 Oh SBCL by the looks 10:46:14 yepp 10:46:26 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-149.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:46:51 bytecolor: and you're not using ASDF? 10:46:52 Zephyrus__ [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:47:00 stassats`: where is the error in that loop statement? 10:47:07 stassats`: I thought about it 10:47:14 "being each element" is not valid 10:47:24 hrm 10:47:27 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host86-145-186-155.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 10:47:33 if you want to iterate over elements of a list, it'd be (loop for element in list ...) 10:47:48 but it's not a list, it's a vector 10:47:56 maden [~maden@dsl-145-214.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 10:48:10 "being each element" is an extension present in sbcl for the last two years 10:48:18 than across instead of in 10:48:25 Xof: it's for sequences, right? 10:48:29 right 10:48:33 ah 10:48:35 lists and vectors are sequences 10:48:50 cool, thanks stassats` 10:49:42 Xof: I wonder where I picked up that 'being each element', thought I got all my loopyness from CLtL2, but I guess not ;) 10:49:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@74-239.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:50:14 there's nothing wrong with using 'being each element' as long as you know what you're doing 10:50:26 did I say two years? Closer to four 10:51:10 I wonder which is faster... 10:51:22 or do they expand to the same thing, hrm 10:51:28 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:51:30 hefner [~root@ppp-61-90-102-63.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:52:19 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:53:16 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 10:56:52 they do not expand to the same thing 11:02:29 Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has joined #lisp 11:03:16 deepsky [~chatzilla@host248-184-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:03:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mykuoightxtyrnui] has joined #lisp 11:10:38 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:13:08 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:15:04 -!- reprore [~reprore@p4b216c.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:09 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:45 too bad the MIT/Symbolics extensibility of loop-paths didn't make it into the standard 11:18:26 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-201-4.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:19:53 nurv [nurv@83.231.89.91] has joined #lisp 11:20:10 Hi. 11:22:55 yeah, it's annoying that iterate is broken re lexenv, and standard loop doesn't support iterating on a sequence... 11:25:53 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:52 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:26:57 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:27:23 freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.224.234] has joined #lisp 11:27:33 -!- nurv is now known as nurv|afk 11:27:49 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:30:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:33:19 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:34:15 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401064631]] 11:36:15 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.165] has joined #lisp 11:39:53 synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-212-212.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:14 beach, fe[nl]ix: where are you guys staying in Lisbon? 11:41:03 luis: Olissippo Marquês de Sá 11:41:23 Avenida Miguel Bombarda, nº 130 11:42:04 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:53 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:43:24 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mykuoightxtyrnui] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:44:11 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:47:10 -!- Younder [~jthing@212.251.245.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:47:24 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:48:24 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 11:53:12 Joreji [~thomas@83-034.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:53:29 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:10 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:54:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:57:46 milanj [~milanj_@40.Red-79-150-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:29 -!- milanj [~milanj_@40.Red-79-150-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:54 -!- nurv|afk is now known as nurv 12:02:02 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.127] has joined #lisp 12:02:06 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:13 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-88-85.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:04:33 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Quit: I'll be back! B)] 12:05:30 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:06:07 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:07:10 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 12:07:17 Just stumbled through something I think should have been dead easy - and well, I got it to work, but may have done some silly things to get there... What would be a better idiomatic lisp way of doing this? 12:07:49 stray_hound__ pasted "this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98597 12:08:19 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:05 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:10:40 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:15 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-88-85.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:11:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:11:59 kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:12:00 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:13:18 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:42 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 12:17:25 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-cxhdibwkxfszhevp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:59 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-mxdfrpiiniqdmkpp] has joined #lisp 12:18:40 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-88-85.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 12:25:28 stassats` annotated #98597 "another way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98597#1 12:25:49 stray_hound__: if read-from-string is not safe enough for you, use parse-number 12:25:56 minion: parse-number? 12:25:57 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 12:26:36 mal__ annotated #98597 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98597#2 12:26:48 nice 12:27:13 through symbols, meh 12:28:29 it's self contained. keeping all sort of small libraries around becomes a drag after a while 12:29:00 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-88-85.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:57 why might if read-from-string not be safe? 12:30:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:30:36 it may evaluate arbitrary code, if you don't bind *read-eval* to NIL 12:30:40 and it can intern symbols 12:30:48 ah 12:30:51 (read-from-string "#.(format-all-drives)") 12:31:06 got it! 12:31:06 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:31:34 #. is easily solvable, while interning is not 12:31:50 and parse-number might be faster 12:31:51 is there a good lexer-generator out there? 12:31:56 any ideas on cl-lex? 12:32:08 though if you wanted to be more efficient, you wouldn't copy strings 12:33:01 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-154-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:33:05 Xach annotated #98597 "my take" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98597#3 12:33:06 wow, cl-lex has only been updated 3 days ago. gotta be a winner :-) 12:33:09 how might you avoid the copy 12:33:41 oh cool, symbol-name, I was wondering where the strings were comming from 12:33:51 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-133-23.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:33:55 stray_hound__: why are you messing with TZs when local-time does a good job? 12:34:05 stray_hound__: by operating on the string directly 12:34:20 note that for time zones et tutti quanti actually using symbols would be a reasonable choice 12:34:57 intern the name once and lookup and test becomes much faster 12:35:19 stassats: how would you go about that? 12:35:19 stray_hound__: like (parse-number:parse-number " 1.0 " :start 2) 12:35:50 fusss: it's part of the geonames database 12:35:54 but i imagine there is no so much timezones so that you could possibly care about efficiency 12:36:24 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:34 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit:  UniCode shall rein forever! ] 12:37:14 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:22 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:37:51 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:37 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:39:07 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:28 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:43:19 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:47:25 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:39 stray_hound__: i might have a solution 12:49:22 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-149.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 12:49:24 ? 12:49:28 stassats` annotated #98597 "cons less" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98597#4 12:49:32 fusss annotated #98597 "my attempt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98597#5 12:49:35 pretty, ain't it? 12:50:07 fusss: fd? 12:50:24 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 12:50:30 Xach: old ways never die 12:50:35 if it were a stream, you could cons even less 12:50:50 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:50:50 stassats`: split-sequence should have something like map-delimiting-indexes 12:51:55 i forgot what i was doing and now need more lisp trivia :-/ 12:52:02 If it's just one file, I'd have sexpified the file via an emacs macro 12:52:19 emacs keyboard macro 12:52:25 where is fun in that? 12:52:26 tcr: i would have parsed the file and serialized with cl-store 12:53:02 i would mmap it and read in binary 12:53:20 if you want to see sexp parsing being abused look at the date/time parsing stuff in the AI repo. was reading it last night. 12:53:49 i would just use a RESTful timezone cloud API 12:54:34 Is this a hello world by X series? 12:54:41 *fusss* is craving some 16-bit MS-DOS programming 12:56:26 there is always turbo C and an emulator 12:56:38 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:40 bytecolor: i am running XP, no emulation req'd 12:57:08 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:18 we're some of you discussing os/390 yesterday? I spent a while with the hercules emulator fscking with os360. I was in a masochistic phase I believe. 13:00:36 trying to compile ancient fortran iv code 13:01:00 maybe that was on #lispgames 13:02:08 fwiw, i came looking for a lexer to write an interpreter for Bliss-32 13:02:46 write a lexer by hand? 13:03:23 well, since we're on about old things, did anyone get the opengenera stuff working on a recent debian? I did the same stuff that worked before but on a recent machine it freezes X completely when booting up the emulator 13:03:32 cl-lex works, so why bother 13:03:34 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:09 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:29 mal__: i had similar experience 13:04:49 it worked before, and then a year later it worked not so good 13:04:55 stassats: the annoying thing is I did get it to work a few years ago 13:04:59 indeed 13:05:01 it doesn't require an alpha? 13:05:12 use a peg parser and you wont need a lexer 13:05:18 nah there's a semi finished port to amd64 13:05:26 woah, cool 13:07:08 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:07:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:07:53 rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:32 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:40 bytecolor: too bleeding edge for my tastes. i take my formal-theory vintage. 13:10:24 fusss: earley parser or boolean grammars then (: 13:11:15 brb 13:11:39 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:29 this is kinda cool http://www.ultimate.com/phil/lil/tut.html 13:12:43 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:15:24 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:16:29 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:08 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:03 opengenera deserves to have the configuration worked out and frozen inside a virtual machine. I don't want to enable NFS and all manner of other antiquated nonsense on my debian workstation anyway. 13:20:43 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:21:03 (and if you're in it for the museum experience, an XL or 3600-series emulator would be so much nicer) 13:21:34 I'm thinking of writing M-x slime-emulate-lisp-machine, which would make Emacs stuck and print the message "GC starting NOW... come back tomorrow at ...." 13:21:36 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:22:07 couldn't you just reboot it? 13:22:20 and lose the world? horror 13:22:40 I think Genera's GC is very good. I've never noticed a GC screwing with mine longer than a fraction of a second delay. 13:23:26 and i'd rather spend time on modern lisp projects 13:26:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-034.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:29:59 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 13:30:33 hefner: juan said threads are necessary on windows because of, oh actually I forgot the exact reason, but it was about signals or events or something 13:30:49 Axius [~hi@92.82.91.152] has joined #lisp 13:30:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:24 on the plus side, here's in munich with some time on hand and is going to implement some stuff for slime goodies 13:31:56 bah 13:32:20 O:-) 13:32:28 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:32:28 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:33:04 threads are for little girls and java programmers, and ECL's process environment is insane. 13:33:04 Should I be expecting problems with ASDF2 on windows? I'm loading an ASDF definition file and ASDF2 is complaining it can't find "asdf-test-lisp" with :TYPE "asd.lnk" 13:33:06 tcr: Windows doesn't have a mechanism for asynchronous event delivery to a thread, and the mechanism for delivery to a process is to spawn a new thread. 13:33:25 (See SetConsoleCtrlHandler() for an example of the latter, used for handling C-c events.) 13:33:39 (Good morning all.) 13:34:14 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-mxdfrpiiniqdmkpp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:19 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.89.91] has quit [] 13:34:50 hi nyef 13:35:02 This is one of the reasons that getting C-c working in SBCL/Win32 is a good chunk of the way towards having stop-for-gc and interrupt-thread. 13:36:49 hefner: actually that's true... it seems like Java did quite some things right regarding threads 13:37:19 *hefner* lately thinks a simpler, strictly bytecoded CL with good embedding properties would be much nicer, if you could live without seamless inline C 13:37:58 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.91.152] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:38:42 hefner: So, not particularly fast, but with excellent embeddable integration? 13:40:06 nyef: right. maybe you could add a JIT on top if you wanted more speed and had manpower to spare. 13:43:22 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43:23 "The position returned is the index within sequence of the leftmost (if from-end is true) or of the rightmost (if from-end is false) element that satisfies the test"? 13:43:29 clhs position 13:43:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm 13:43:36 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:43:55 heh. next sentence 13:44:42 TR2N [email@89.180.206.151] has joined #lisp 13:44:57 We need an annontatable CLHS, the way we have an annotatable CLIM spec. 13:45:33 beach: You're thinking too small. We need an annotatable web! 13:46:00 hefner: I am sure you are right. 13:46:03 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:15 stix.to once aimed to do that, but now i can't tell what it's for. 13:46:18 beach: I've thought that many times 13:46:19 (it was a lisp startup) 13:47:00 all you need to do is write a hundred TeX macros to output it in some wiki markup 13:47:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:32 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-88-85.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:48 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 dlowe: I think that's exactly what gilberth did for the CLIM spec. 13:47:58 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-69-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:48:17 Er, maybe not. 13:48:19 maybe better to leave the hyperspec read-only and restrict wiki-style editing to the annotation sections (that would be an improvement on gilberth's write-once annotations0 13:48:50 well, either way 13:49:22 the hard part is getting it to a web-ready state 13:50:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-42-136.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:50:33 the annotatable PHP docs become a message board for help-seekers and cargo-cult problem-solvers. 13:51:00 rrice [~rrice@76.211.6.129] has joined #lisp 13:51:14 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:52:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:52:33 The copyright terms of CLHS are pretty strict, is an annotated version allowed? 13:52:41 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:52:57 deepsky: I think "clhs" is shorthand for "a webified dpANS3" 13:52:58 it only applies to the converted version, not the original text 13:53:21 ok 13:54:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:54:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 13:55:57 xach: re php, I think that the annotations reflects the average level of that community. Also, I don't think that the WORM nature of forum messages is suited to annotations of a document. Maybe something wiki-style is better 13:56:19 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:26 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:57:28 I'd only allow c-l.net users 13:57:33 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:46 SallySue [~55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-vzqnpwomjyhdyzhw] has joined #lisp 13:57:59 only allow ALU members =p 13:58:11 yay 13:58:25 that's not such a crazy idea 13:58:51 which one? 13:59:36 Hello gentlemen! I am an actual woman; That's right, I have one of those where your penis goes. Now listen, I am issuing a challenge: If you can make a useful Lisp program you get to have your way with my special place. I feel safe that nobody will manage this. 13:59:36 the cl cookbook is not editable by anyone. Consequence: after the original contributors exhausted their drive, the project halted. 14:00:11 sallysue: define "useful". 14:00:22 Generates an income 14:00:28 deepsky: if only it halted... it's maintained by younder these days 14:00:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:45 The ITA staff should have some fun from now on. 14:01:47 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.138] has quit [Quit: off] 14:02:06 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:02:14 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667912-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 14:02:56 tcr: younder? 14:02:57 SallySue, is millions a year good enough? 14:03:09 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:03:21 the Haskell bunch kicked me right away 14:03:26 sallysue: that income brings actual women, one does not need lisp to demonstrate it. 14:03:31 beach: why from now on? 14:03:34 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 14:03:39 I thought lispers would be more angry 14:03:39 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-vzqnpwomjyhdyzhw 14:03:41 fusss: :) 14:03:57 we're too happy programming lisp 14:04:10 they couldn't cope with the challenge, that's all 14:04:25 -!- Xach has set mode -bb *!*55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-vzqnpwomjyhdyzhw *!*55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-bggknmscudnvsoyt 14:04:43 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/* 14:04:44 and we have a better class of punks :P 14:04:56 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 14:05:13 They did the same thing two weeks ago. 14:05:14 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:24 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.127] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 14:05:44 "they"? 14:05:57 *hefner* is more angry, but not at lisp 14:06:17 poor macbook 14:06:20 you cruel :-( 14:06:47 tcr: sallysue joined as "walkshoe" on the 15th or so and wrote the same thing. 14:07:46 -!- SallySue [~55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-vzqnpwomjyhdyzhw] has left #lisp 14:07:51 -!- synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-212-212.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:08:07 tcr: in the sense that the cookbook is frozen, or that the contributors are not knowledgeable enough? 14:08:12 ah, we were no fun :P 14:08:58 deepsky: younder is often.. confused 14:13:34 Brucio walks among us 14:15:03 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 14:15:26 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:23 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 14:20:19 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 14:25:48 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 14:29:03 Oh, god. I just found out why backtrace actually works half the time for the undefined-function case... And it's nasty, and trivial to find a case where it doesn't fire. 14:29:16 -!- kelsin [~cgiroir@www.dreaminginlyrics.com] has left #lisp 14:29:24 got a fix ready to slip in under the freeze? 14:29:32 Not for this. 14:29:56 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:31:08 And, honestly, everything I have in my queue is for longstanding stuff like external-format bugs, unicode character handling bugs, backtrace fixes, GC instability, buffer overruns for linkage-table, nothing that really warrants breaking freeze for 14:32:23 Nstars [~nstars@118.103.188.125] has joined #lisp 14:32:47 -!- Nstars [~nstars@118.103.188.125] has left #lisp 14:33:25 -!- UnderTaLker [~bot@89.108.125.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:34 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:32 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:34:43 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:36:26 Basically, there's a small window at the XEP for each function where things are in a bit of flux, so in build_fake_control_stack_frames() it decides if it should fix up a new stack frame or not... 14:37:25 And the test it uses is if reg_CSP is equal to reg_CFP, which is not the case if there's a caller-allocated frame (such as for stack arguments or a tail-call). 14:37:51 And with that test not being reliable, you can kiss your backtrace goodbye. 14:40:57 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:13 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:38 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:00 is there a way to get sbcl PID inside repl ? 14:46:37 kiuma: (sb-posix:getpid) 14:46:38 sb-posix:getpid 14:46:42 :( 14:46:46 kiuma: it is obscurely named 14:46:53 (apropos "getpid") 14:47:13 I only need a unique id for ipc 14:47:43 still playing with enlightenment EFL 14:48:01 PIDs aren't unique outside of a certain context, though, so be careful with them. 14:49:27 nyef, do youo have a suggestion: (elm-run) call will lock my slime repl. I was thinking to use ipc to make it exit (the callback will call elm-exit) 14:49:27 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-247.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:50:13 I'll have a separate client do do this 14:50:55 Well, the first question is, is the context in which you're attempting to apply IPC one of those for which PIDs are unique? 14:51:22 (Hint: Single OS instance, modulo those with separate PID namespace support.) 14:55:25 I don't understand 14:55:40 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:46 efl can run only in single thread mode 14:55:54 How many processes have PID 1? 14:56:10 *Xach* is a child of init 14:56:14 then I have to connect to a running application and pause it 14:56:39 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:52 ah , I got the point 14:57:07 what does elm-run do? 14:57:08 nyef, for basical tasks only one 14:57:13 Xach: Jesus was too. 14:57:42 tcr enters a C loop then it's event based 14:57:45 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:06 could you run it a lisp thread? 14:58:12 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754636.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:46 How about a quick kill -9 as a way to signal that it's time for a process to shut down? 14:58:59 tcr yes, but the main one, or at least all EFL in the same thread 14:59:42 tcr, suppose I do all EFL things in a new single thread, 15:00:17 when I then call elm-run the thread will be locked 15:00:42 how are you supposed to communicate with it? 15:00:43 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:48 Is there a way to get back to the main thread 15:01:03 tcr, I've two options 15:01:56 ipc is the hard way, as stated by raster, he suggested to just use pipes from ecore lib 15:02:02 pers [~user@115.sub-75-252-200.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:53 wasn't dbus written for this kind of stuff? 15:02:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:03:10 but I need two processes (or two threads I can switch to when the efl one is loked, because pipes are the only to be thread safe) 15:03:49 tcr, I don't know but ecore_pipe probably uses it 15:04:28 I don't see the problem, you start the elm event loop in its own lisp thread, then you write lisp functions for the communication with its using this pipe thing 15:04:54 (Can pipes be used between threads?) 15:05:26 tcr: sure. 15:05:46 sounds like something they'd screw up on Mac OS 15:05:57 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bcxcqhmgmwtqtdve] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:02 tcr: ecore_pipe_write() writes to the pipe from any thread 15:06:05 fusss_ [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:06:19 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-edzpajyndrqxjllc] has joined #lisp 15:06:32 hefner, efl is not just a toolkit 15:07:36 but question is if I lock the thread I'm working on, may I still switch to the scond not locked ? 15:07:50 what do you mean with switch? 15:08:11 get the repl from slime 15:08:14 In a slime-scratch buffer write (elm-run) and press C-M-x 15:08:21 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 15:08:23 this will start a new thread executing (elm-run) 15:08:28 the repl thread is unaffected 15:08:46 tcr I can't 15:08:49 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:09:11 every EFL things must be done in the same thread 15:09:22 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:09:30 I thought you can communicate with it using pipes? 15:09:39 I can't run elm-run in a new thread 15:09:51 arbitrary stupid restrictions on threads is classic toolkit behavior 15:09:55 only ecore-pipe-write is allowed 15:10:07 then, please read carefully, you are l o s t 15:10:12 hefner, it's not a toolkit 15:10:26 tcr yes :) 15:10:44 *Xach* imagines an austrian yelling "it's not a toolkit!" 15:11:03 if you're _really_ inclined read the sources of that ecore_pipe stuff what it does, what the receiving end does 15:11:07 maybe you'll grow a clue 15:11:11 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:11:28 if you're not that inclined, bleh, just give up and call it a day 15:11:59 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:12:05 Xach, I don't understand 15:12:23 tcr, already gave a brief look at 15:12:40 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:13:52 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 15:13:57 another option/question is there a way that allows a call to be executed on a particular thread 15:14:36 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:44 hello 15:15:03 hello ost 15:15:28 It's an interesting question what interrupt-thread does while a thread is executing C code 15:15:33 actually I think it may work 15:16:01 tcr: or may not 15:16:11 it can :) 15:16:28 a long chat on #e 15:16:31 :) 15:16:35 hmm, has SLIME grown "kill definition" capability recently? 15:17:29 -!- eslick [~eslick@70-36-140-179.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:17:36 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B202375.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:40 hm? 15:17:47 tcr, the nice thing is that efl bings a powerful graphic library too, not only a widget sets (could be used for videogames eventually) 15:18:12 real men write their own graphic libraries and widget sets 15:18:35 every time from 0 15:18:38 ? 15:19:01 kiuma: that's what raster did. 15:19:24 yes, I think raster is a guru and an artist 15:19:34 it's very uncommon 15:19:48 he can't even type three words correctly. you can do way better! 15:20:08 yes, but in C is better 15:20:10 :) 15:20:28 I had some difficulty reading what he said :) 15:20:41 *wrote 15:21:07 tcr: i want to redefine a defun as a defgeneric+defmethod 15:21:26 *Xach* can just use the sbcl restarts 15:21:53 there's a restart now? 15:22:01 I was annoyed by either that way or the reverse way recently 15:22:16 tcr: i compiled a clashing defgeneric and it has a "replace function binding" restart. 15:22:21 or when changing the api of generic functions incompatibly.... bah you have to first undefine all methods for that 15:22:40 I think that was a recent wish from nyef granted by nikodemus 15:23:49 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:25:34 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-edzpajyndrqxjllc] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:25:40 kiuma: so actually I think you can may be able to run an arbitrary command in the thread executing the elm-run function via interrupt-thread.... 15:26:34 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 kiuma: sbcl signals a sigpipe on itself, the sigpipe handler jumps back into lisp world, executing lisp code 15:27:38 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 15:27:47 I don't know if I can Interrupt the main thread 15:27:57 without hurting elm-run 15:28:03 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909]] 15:28:13 but I can try 15:28:21 -!- codeassembly [~givan@188.25.61.136] has left #lisp 15:29:33 kiuma: why don't you want to queue all the foreign calls into a dedicated thread? 15:31:00 ost, but how to do without making the thread to exit after call to elm-exit 15:31:02 ? 15:31:39 and the thread must be the same for all efl lifetime 15:31:39 what elm-exit does? 15:32:09 make it an infinite loop 15:32:25 it's cpu consuming 15:32:40 raster said it's ugly, I think he is right 15:32:54 not at all, if you use condition variables 15:33:25 async interrupts are dangerous 15:33:26 but then it willl kill the efl thread 15:33:34 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:47 hm 15:33:58 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:34:22 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-28-35.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:32 why call elm-exit at all? 15:34:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:35:53 ost, to do live changes to the code a la LISP 15:37:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:37:18 iPac [~bubble@p54AA64C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:35 without calling elm-exit, I can't call (elm-label-label-set *lb* "cu cu cu!!") for example 15:38:26 does the problem of unique PID come from forking ? 15:38:29 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:38:40 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:23 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:40:51 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Quit: palter] 15:41:30 why isn't the pid unique among running processes on the same machine/os 15:41:34 ? 15:41:36 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:41:46 PID -is- unique in such a context. 15:42:00 ahh then I've no problem :) 15:42:08 (Well, modulo such virtualization techniques as PID namespaces.) 15:42:30 Though multiple threads in the same process are supposed to share a single PID. 15:43:06 yes but I'll have a single efl-PID per process 15:43:13 so it should be ok 15:43:56 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 15:44:44 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:48 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 15:46:11 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:46:45 Sikander [~soemraws@5356EFC5.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 15:47:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:49:23 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:50:03 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:42 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:10 hey, i compile a binary on darwin x86, would it run on intel macs? 15:51:33 WORST WEB INTERFACE EVER 15:52:23 i need to run a CLI app on mac but i don't have a mac available 15:53:04 ah, release time again? 15:53:22 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:55:04 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Quit: palter] 15:55:18 yes. Everyone go wild with your pent-up creativity 15:55:24 #macosx says yes :-) 15:55:30 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 15:55:48 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B202375.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:15 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:09 -!- Xof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.38, Clozure CL 1.5, ELS 2010 registration open 15:57:39 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:02:49 -!- fusss_ [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 16:03:08 Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:05:28 snowbeard [~user@nat-204-14-239-163-sfo.net.salesforce.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:28 Can anyone point me in the right direction for resolving this error: I'm using CLSQL to communicate with SQLServer over the wire. SQL Server sometimes sends weird char data (weird in the sense that it's just the data stored in the table).. 16:05:30 CLSQL will choke trying to interpret this data (my particular example is 'ÿ') 16:05:42 the error thrown is C-STRING-DECODING-ERROR :UTF-8 4 16:05:53 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B202375.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:09 which is thrown from (SB-IMPL::READ-FROM-C-STRING/UTF-8 #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X080F6D60) CHARACTER) 16:06:09 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:07:59 Shaftoe_: make sure your lisp understands SQLServer's character encoding 16:08:02 http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql/2009-April/001692.html 16:08:09 this seems to be essentially where I'm at 16:08:25 fusss: you mean in SQL speak: the collation method? 16:08:39 yeah 16:09:04 do you know what the SBCL UTF 8 collation method is? 16:09:28 that doesn't make any sense either 16:09:39 but I can tell you about collation in sbcl: it is purely by code point 16:09:47 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:00 ("UTF-8" is an encoding, not a character repertoire) 16:10:30 or maybe I don't understand what SQL means by "collation" 16:10:33 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has left #lisp 16:10:36 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 16:10:46 that character I printed is code point 255, or just byte value 255 16:10:58 why would SBCL's UTF-8 not be able to handle that? 16:11:00 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:13 because 255 is not part of a valid utf byte sequence 16:11:16 (i.e. is the code point not supposed to be a range?) 16:11:23 code point 255 is not encoded as "255" in utf-8 16:11:25 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 16:11:28 I see. 16:11:35 it is instead encoded as a multibyte sequence 16:11:49 semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.54.82] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 so it ought to be encoded as something multi-byte, and SQL Server isn't doing it, is the prognosis here. Right? 16:11:55 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:13:30 -!- pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has left #lisp 16:13:36 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 16:13:51 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 16:13:51 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:58 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356EFC5.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:14:02 Shaftoe_: Not necessarily. 16:14:05 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 16:14:21 Xach: what other scenario can you think of? 16:14:27 Shaftoe_: both ends should agree on how to encode and decode the data. 16:14:56 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:10 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 16:15:14 Shaftoe_: You can usually do that by making changes to one end or the other. It's not necessarily SQL Server's sole responsibility. 16:15:16 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:15:40 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:55 Xach: yeah, I understood that, although I'd rather do it on SQL Server's end if I can because, at least there, it's bound to be configuration only. Whereas SBCL might involve code. 16:15:58 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:16:14 ideally a fixed connection string and I'm off to the races 16:16:38 I see that I'm using SQL_Latin1_General_CP1_CI_AS 16:16:43 which means it's a binary code point. 16:16:48 if that is of any help to anyone 16:17:33 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:58 I lie. 16:18:04 retract that last statement 16:18:17 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.224.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:58 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.54.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:19:31 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 16:19:36 semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.54.82] has joined #lisp 16:23:16 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:23:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:23:30 hmm. I see that command line isql can't handle the data either. So it's probably before it even gets into sbcl. (at the odbc/freetds transport layer) 16:26:32 -!- snowbeard [~user@nat-204-14-239-163-sfo.net.salesforce.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:26:37 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA64C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 16:32:22 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #lisp 16:34:13 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 16:34:28 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:55 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:35:10 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 16:37:03 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38:17 eslick [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:53 eastwind [~seg@adsl-99-29-144-168.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:28 *nyef* tries to remember how his git-to-cvs workflow goes... 16:39:43 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 16:39:44 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 16:40:42 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 16:41:31 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 16:42:25 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:15 carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.43] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 *fusss* is looking at commented listing of first unix, in assembly 16:45:07 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:45:56 this is unix without any of the familiar system calls; http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/PreliminaryUnixImplementationDocument_Jun72.pdf 16:47:30 *Xach* struggles to find the Lisp angle 16:48:23 Xach: that was meant for nyef, in another channel 16:48:36 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:39 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:53:47 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:58 *nyef* releases the commit donut. 16:54:20 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:34 That's my critical queue, apart from the PPC unicode character fixes, which are on a different machine and thus not immediately committable. 16:55:19 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:55:20 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:57 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 16:55:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:56:47 what's SB-LUTEX? 16:57:23 futex for lusers 16:57:24 google is failing me, it finds a lot of references, but no proper explanation 16:57:38 tcr: aha, so basically userspace implementation? 16:57:59 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:14 sounds like one of Christophe's musical curiosities 16:58:17 -!- easyE [tsbo9tqZgO@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58:18 mathrick: more like futexes implemented with standard mutexes 16:58:29 -!- Intensity [bVF8pv8uhe@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:58:44 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:07 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:25 froydnj: I see, are they actually faster? 16:59:37 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:59:47 mathrick: probably not; I doubt anybody has actually measured 17:00:02 so why implement them instead of just using mutexes directly? 17:00:27 because the original threading support was done with futexes 17:00:37 seg_ [~seg@adsl-99-40-252-150.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:59 I thought futexes were mutexes, just faster because they don't need to syscall most of the time 17:01:21 linux platforms could probably be switched over to use plain mutexes 17:01:23 they're something like a primitive for condition variables 17:01:58 mathrick: oh, was the "they" in your question referring to futexes? 17:02:03 yes 17:02:03 -!- Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 17:02:05 mathrick: mutex is basically just atomic word swapping, futexes provide the waiting 17:02:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:02:19 mathrick: ah, that's not what I thought it meant 17:02:22 tcr: ah 17:02:28 (which is also needed in the implementation of mutexes of course) 17:02:41 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 17:02:47 froydnj: wait, depends on which question we're talking about now 17:02:59 "are they faster" was about lutexes, not futexes 17:03:25 ok, then my answer stands 17:04:38 -!- eastwind [~seg@adsl-99-29-144-168.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:05:45 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:45 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.114.226] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:27 -!- Zephyrus__ [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:15:49 maden_ [~maden@198.168.103.254] has joined #lisp 17:18:40 egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.112] has joined #lisp 17:19:57 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:20:40 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:21:30 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.91] has joined #lisp 17:25:18 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 17:26:12 gluon_ [~bc1a3f90@gateway/web/freenode/x-txybpuylfjspngqz] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 leifw [~user@182.sub-97-169-84.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 17:27:41 Hello. I thought of a programming language while being on the toilet. I don't know lisp, but I know it is a functional language. Could you tell me what kind of programming language is this: http://pastie.org/940580 ? 17:28:02 From what I heard it should be a functional one 17:29:47 <_3b> if < is modifying variables, it doesn't sound 'pure functional' 17:30:18 <_3b> and without any mention of first-class functions, it is hard to call it functional in any sense from what i see 17:30:48 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:57 nipra [~nipra@115.118.184.185] has joined #lisp 17:31:05 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:17 so what could it be? procedural? 17:31:55 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:32:59 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 17:33:20 ... Is a "procedural" language one in which the large-scale unit of code (corresponding to a function in "functional" languages) is not allowed to return a value? 17:33:42 shiiow ?? 17:34:41 I don't understand: " ... Is a "procedural" language one in which the large-scale unit of code (corresponding to a function in "functional" languages) is not allowed to return a value?" 17:34:42 gluon_: Why do you want to distinguish between statements and expressions? 17:34:46 there was a theological dispute on CLL recently on what it means "functional language" 17:35:00 aa? 17:35:04 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 toilet, thelogical dispute, c.l.l 17:35:13 what expresions and sratements 17:35:19 pure awesomeness 17:35:36 I just woke up from dreamin about #lisp 17:35:46 -!- leifw [~user@182.sub-97-169-84.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35:53 and what is the relationship betweem the unkown c.l.l and toilet and all that things 17:35:59 *gluon_* is a complete noob 17:36:06 we don't make sense 17:36:13 CLL = comp.lang.lisp 17:36:17 oh 17:36:27 what is the comp.lang? 17:36:53 Are you sure you want to design a programming language? 17:36:57 gluon_: Is a newsgroup. check it out at google groups 17:37:11 newsgroup=what? 17:37:21 gluon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet 17:37:50 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:38:08 you know, one of those things on the interwebs. 17:38:16 gluon_: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/topics?lnk=srg 17:38:54 *froydnj* responds to weeks-old comment about lisp on reddit 17:38:59 From what I see it's kinda forum 17:39:13 but summarizing the thing: "lisp allows a functional style, but is not especially a functional language". 17:39:25 *gluon_* is 13 years old and is a total begginer in lisp and it in general 17:39:34 gluon_: forums are kinda newsgroups ;) 17:39:48 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 froydnj: noteworthy? 17:40:22 (i.e. link?) 17:40:43 froydnj: you've just replied to me, btw :) 17:41:10 is lisp harder than forth or asm 17:41:27 gluon_: From that lil bit of code in your paste there it is very hard to say anythig about the eulongbolong language or waht the name was. 17:41:28 gluon, being beginner is fun. 17:41:43 no. 17:41:52 Euglena 17:41:53 itv sucks beeing a begginer 17:42:02 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:42:09 euglena is a uni celular creature 17:42:18 deepsky: oh? hi :) 17:42:21 gluon_: You make me happy. 13 year olds talking about learning forth, asm and lisp. You give me a feeling that there is hope for the future :) 17:42:59 what's so special in making a simple kernel or MCUs? 17:43:08 thank's 17:43:16 schme: what, I don't give you hope for the future? I am only 29 :-/ 17:43:17 but i'm very normal 17:43:28 nothing extraorinary in me 17:43:53 heh. 17:43:56 gluon_: just learn Scheme and learn it well 17:44:07 fusss: ok. sorry. I've sat here now with the fingers of the keyboard and trying to think of somethning witty to type. My mind is blank. 17:44:15 why scheme and not lisp? 17:44:17 *kami* will give schme no hope at all with his 42 17:44:47 gluon_: for a beginner, they're almost interchangeable. plus scheme has heaps of free literature you can peruse. 17:44:55 tcr: fwiw: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/blx09/let_over_lambda_chapter_5_for_free/c0p6cfv 17:44:55 gluon_: Personally I'm in the camp that says asm is pretty much the easiest thing around. But there is nothing complicated about lisp either really. :) 17:45:15 kami: old people on the internet :O 17:45:21 deepsky: I'd be glad to discuss more if you like 17:45:32 *deepsky* still reading 17:46:31 is there scheme under bsd or linux? 17:46:49 gluon_: most of them. start with PLT 17:46:51 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:03 gluon_: MCU? 17:47:16 mcu=microcontroller 17:47:43 heh, I work with those and it's first time I had seen that abbrev. :) 17:48:03 wierd 17:48:08 p_l: i have seen it before, "micro-controller unit" 17:48:09 gluon_: Get Structure And Interpretation of Computer Programs, it may be a bit tough but I wasn't much older when I read it 17:48:11 it's even in wikipedia 17:48:12 schme: I was happy to rediscover lisp where one can find old people abound 17:48:21 kami: Me too :) 17:48:31 fusss: my first guess was microchip unit, cause I'm used to MCM aka Multi-Chip Module 17:48:40 oh 17:48:44 sorry 17:48:56 http://MITPress.mit.edu/sicp 17:48:58 gluon_: no need to be 17:49:04 I promise I'll write complete sentences. 17:49:06 kami: It does however make me more happy with 13 year olds even having heard of lisp and forth (: 17:49:38 schme: then count me in, my first contact with lisp was around that time :P 17:49:48 (Scheme R2RS) 17:50:10 deepsky: CL is overwhelming, even after years there will typically parts you're only superficially familiar with. 17:50:18 p_l: it don't count unless it is this year! 17:50:30 WTF??? Is scheme ezoteric? 17:50:31 Someone said recently that SICP "uses" lisp, but it's not a book "about" lisp. 17:50:33 schme: true 17:50:33 schme: heh. Pity, I'm from 1989 :) 17:51:07 deepsky: I agree with froydnj; take a project that you find interests in, read the source, play with it, contribute. 17:51:28 tcr, every day I am amazed that the guys in c.l.l. are still debating the subtleties of the standard, after all these years. 17:51:32 deepsky: Write small stuff, post it here 17:51:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:52:04 #lisp makes me feel old. I'll go write some code instead. 17:52:09 deepsky: well, it's not that different from c.l.c or c.l.c++ --and those standards have been revised! 17:52:17 gluon_: read this cover to cover http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-1.html#node_toc_start 17:52:47 gluon_: download this http://download.plt-scheme.org/ 17:53:41 i taught it to my nephews, 13 and 15 and they learned the basics in 5 days 17:53:49 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:12 nice 17:54:21 *gluon_* compiles it 17:54:40 fetching 17:55:22 alright now, come back when you have questions gluon_ 17:55:53 or ask #scheme mebbe ;) 17:56:11 dlowe: ping 17:56:24 and in ten years you would be able to program 17:57:00 stassats`: well, the actual number varies between people... 17:57:31 A stupid question: what's the executable named? 17:57:38 i already typed make clean 17:57:41 :( 17:57:49 drscheme for the whole PLT environment 17:57:54 kruth [~chatzilla@kruth.org] has joined #lisp 17:58:08 thanks 17:58:08 it worked 17:59:04 gluon_: don't forget to join #scheme, they are experts in PLT scheme 17:59:31 it says: DrScheme cannot process programs until you choose a programming language. 17:59:46 now, that's off-topic 17:59:52 ok 17:59:56 sorry 18:00:23 LISP-1 used #\, as separator. ouch! 18:00:24 froydnj: re the "building a large program in CL". It is not a theoretical question; after learning CL and playing a little, I began writing the thing I had in mind, and it's currently 10kLOC. Often I had doubts on how to organize the whole thing. I think that the reason why people don't ask this kind of question with Perl, for example, is that Perl seems not suited to large projects in... 18:00:26 ...itself, while CL does. All the condition and CLOS machinery is sophisticated, and probably not necessary for small things. So one wonders WHAT is the best use of these things. I find a complete lack of literature on this topic. 18:00:29 gluon_: it should show you a list with descriptions - more info on #scheme, I guess. I'm personally concentrating on CL, so I can't help you much (because when it's not CL, it's Erlang/Haskell or Java....) 18:01:03 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:07 deepsky: there's not many big *modern* open source projects available, so it's hard to learn such stuff, but I guess you could look through some of the web frameworks (dwim? LOL? FTW?) to see how they organize their codepaths etc. 18:02:56 p_l: for a second there I thought you were making fun of dwim 18:02:57 deepsky: cl-ppcre uses a lot of different features together well. 18:03:00 deepsky: fair enough. I'm just not sure what's different about doing this in CL versus other languages. modularity, clear interfaces, etc. or are you asking about things like asdf? 18:03:44 cya 18:03:49 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:03:50 well there are some certain implementation techniques, e.g. sb-impl which is then reexported into specific packages 18:03:54 It's 02:03 here 18:03:59 gn8 18:04:02 -!- gluon_ [~bc1a3f90@gateway/web/freenode/x-txybpuylfjspngqz] has left #lisp 18:04:35 *froydnj* prefers fully-qualified names in lieu of :USE or re-exporting 18:04:42 p_l: LOL in the sense of Lisp On Lines, or Let Over Lambda, or ":)" ? 18:04:50 felideon: had some issues with dwim lately :D 18:04:57 froydnj: I'm with you. Dependencies are in the asd file anyway 18:04:58 deepsky: lisp-on-lines 18:05:05 FTW is for-the-web :) 18:05:33 is lisp on lines still alive? I never heard about it in ages 18:05:35 -!- pers [~user@115.sub-75-252-200.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 18:06:48 deepsky: Learning means communication, too. So there's always the opportunity to discuss design decisions first here 18:06:54 deepsky: drewc mentioned moving towards a new stack called FTW, but I haven;t seen it yet 18:07:13 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:08:21 md` [~user@85-135-137-223.adsl.slovanet.sk] has joined #lisp 18:08:29 kami: pong? 18:10:46 Any alexandria guys here? I want to make a small suggestion. Would it be possible to put string+ function to alexandria? I could look like (defun string+ (&rest strings) (apply #'concatenate 'string string)) I just about every project I have, plus many other projects I saw there is some variation of it, and I am tired of writing it again and again. 18:11:43 froydnj: mostly, I was wondering how to make best use of the peculiarieties of CL, like CLOS, macros and conditions. Certain things are covered (macros especially). I would like something like a GOF for CLOS, sort of. Maybe less boring :) 18:11:59 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:12:28 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:12:32 dlowe: the result of (parse-timestring "06:06:00") is not meant to be a timestamp, right? 18:12:37 md`: What do you use it for? 18:12:51 xach, yes, I know. I must read cl-ppcre. I feel slightly guilty for not having done it yet. 18:13:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:13:21 kami: parse-timestring always returns a timestamp... 18:13:24 tcr: concatenating string here and there 18:13:30 dlowe: sorry, I meant not a time-of-day. 18:13:33 well specific example? 18:13:43 md`: I almost never write (concatenate 'string ...) 18:14:26 dlowe: (local-time::%valid-time-of-day? (parse-timestring "06:06:00")) -> NIL 18:14:39 sometimes for web stuff (concatenating First and Last name for example) 18:14:56 md`: how about format? 18:15:06 I know about path translations - I don't use for making paths normally 18:15:12 kami: returns T on my copy 18:15:22 format is too general 18:15:42 I have to parse the format string. 18:15:46 kami: I'm not too satisfied with partial time representations, though 18:15:51 -!- nipra [~nipra@115.118.184.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:15:52 md: the usual name for this function is string-append (lisp machine) or concat (emacs lisp) 18:15:54 hides the real purpose of primitive operation 18:16:07 dlowe: sorry for the noise. I probably have modified something locally. 18:16:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:16:19 kami: try updating too 18:16:28 huh? you're formatting a string, it's actually more specific than string+ 18:16:30 md: but, like tcr, I don't usually use anything like to 18:16:34 *it 18:16:45 froydnj: Anyway the point of my post was not that these things cannot be discovered, given enough determination. But that they are not available in organized form. Practical Common Lisp was very useful to attract new blood to CL, I think. A second step would be good. 18:16:47 dlowe: what date does the parsed timestamp have? today's date? 18:16:56 md`: if you were Paul Graham, you'd disappear for five years inventing your own lisp dialect just so you could concatenate strings more easily 18:17:06 hefner: :) 18:17:12 no, that's not my case 18:17:15 kami: the day epoch, which is 2000-03-01 18:17:18 you can be twice as good as graham by disappearing for 10 years! 18:17:31 well, I don't want to push anything, not my attitude 18:17:32 heheheh 18:17:37 I think snarc has string-append 18:18:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:19:12 deepsky: yes, I agree. part of the problem, I think, is that things like CLOS only become useful in large things and so it's hard to give small motivating examples 18:19:20 dlowe: found my modification. Sorry for bothering you. 18:19:31 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082C4D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:48 md`: we're making fun of PG, not you 18:19:55 it's just that alexandria has a lot of stuff I won't use in a dozen years with lots of lines of code. My suggestion is for 2 lines. Scripting languages made their name with just allowing simple concatenation :) 18:20:12 deepsky: I think PCL's explanation of conditions is about as far as it goes...maybe another extended example showing how conditions enable something like Python's yield natively 18:20:38 dlowe: I am fine :) 18:21:01 froydnj: I find it hard to imagine a generator powered with conditions and restarts 18:21:19 dlowe: I now remember. I asked you about the specs allowing for 0000 years. 18:21:31 dlowe: why? 18:21:34 md: I don't think "Scripting languages" are the thing Lisp should look up to ;) 18:22:19 adeht: I think CL libraries could take a couple of pages from scripting languages, though? 18:22:36 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C658.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:22:42 I know. I don't use them btw. But they are reflecting the fact, that some non-neglible part of software uses string catenation. 18:23:04 froydnj: I'm sure there are some things, but the usual approach with strings is not one of them, imho 18:23:21 I am not suggesting pushing some "++" or any horrible name. just want to avoid concatenate 'string "a" "b" case 18:23:22 adeht: why not? 18:23:42 md`: I'd use "ab" in that case 18:23:47 the usual approach to strings is just one aspect 18:23:56 of the general principal of being able to write short programs 18:24:07 tcr: sure 18:24:29 (concatenate 'string a b) vs. (string+ a b) 18:24:53 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:25:17 dlowe: the basic idea is that yield is just SIGNAL + an enclosing HANDLER-BIND 18:25:31 + continue restart 18:25:33 froydnj: I suppose it's my peculiar disdain towards using opaque strings for structured data.. I do agree that adding a string-append utility isn't a big deal 18:26:00 adeht: well, I think it's not. 18:26:03 I always use Graham's MKSTR, which he wrote while was still perfecting its string concatenation plans to rule the world. 18:26:11 his 18:26:18 deepsky: mkstr is ugly 18:26:19 it's not quite as transparent as python, where the interpreter creates a different type of function if it sees yield somewhere, but it could still be useful. 18:26:32 md`, why? 18:26:39 inconsistent 18:26:52 mkvec, mklst, mkcpl 18:26:57 ugly 18:27:13 mfcr? 18:27:18 are you referring to the name or to what it does? 18:27:21 adeht: oh. well on that point, I think we can find common ground 18:27:25 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:27 nyef: mfcrf? 18:28:46 md: if you wish, you could propose it in the alexandria mailing list 18:28:59 froydnj: there are subtle problems with that approach 18:29:07 (yield via condition system) 18:29:09 ... Maybe, though I suspect that what I was really looking for was mfctr. 18:29:11 adeht: well, ok. I will subscribe there. 18:29:13 nurv [nurv@83.231.23.245] has joined #lisp 18:29:21 Hi. 18:30:15 tcr: oh, sure, there are things just waiting to bite you. also, multiple values support sucks 18:30:15 adeht: the problem with putting this in alexandria is that the function becomes alexandria:string+ and then you've saved no characters. 18:30:35 or one character, whatever 18:30:50 -!- eslick [~eslick@173-11-104-25-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:31:27 plus, since it's not part of the core language, it doesn't have the idiomatic usage advantage. 18:31:44 hefner: I always USE alexandria 18:31:59 hefner: I would object to string+, I'd call it string-append 18:32:00 froydnj: A recent discovery of mine is that restarts are actually dynamically scoped functions 18:32:12 Good evening! 18:32:25 You could go the SQL-style route and call it alexandria:|| 18:32:30 adeht: string-append is okay as well. 18:32:32 hefner: and alexandria is meant to be stable, so there's less hestitation in using it 18:32:40 md`: how much does it save you now? 18:32:41 md`: I never USE alexandria. I don't like pulling that much stuff into my namespace. 18:32:50 bonus points if any nil arguments make the whole result nil. 18:32:54 md`: mkstr is not just (concatenate 'string), it's (with-output-to-string (s) (dolist (a args) (princ a s)))). 18:33:16 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:33:36 tcr: on my biggest project (neuroarena) there are several dozens of string+ 18:33:54 md`: nah I mean string-append vs concatenate 'string 18:33:57 bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 18:34:06 3, maybe 4 characters? 18:34:13 leifw [~user@dhcp-gigadmz-144.algorithm.cs.sunysb.edu] has joined #lisp 18:34:18 tcr: it's not a matter of characters 18:34:19 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:34:32 tcr: it's a matter of tokens, being specific 18:34:33 vs: "foo: " + 5 + " bar!" 18:34:33 tcr: well yes, but what about that redundant 'string argument 18:34:34 it isn't? 18:34:40 -!- bozhidar` is now known as bozhidar 18:34:43 true, what I dislike about concatenate is its indentation 18:34:57 hefner: I think that might be the right thing to do (not USE). 18:35:20 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 18:36:35 *deepsky* realizes it's LATE. good night! 18:36:57 tcr: Does that mean that what you dislike about your indent function, is that it doesn't understand concatenate? 18:37:45 *beach* is in a bad mood because of his terrible cold. 18:38:26 -!- deepsky [~chatzilla@host248-184-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.7/2007112810]] 18:38:50 :-/ 18:39:09 Hey tic. 18:39:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:40:02 tic: How are things these days? 18:40:23 *Xach* is in a good mood because his kmp search engine is almost done, and it will be suitable for applying to any cll author 18:41:10 Xach: does it use the KMP algorithm for searching? =p 18:41:20 it uses the ZPB algorithm 18:41:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:48 hefner: I was thinking of some similar remark, but wasn't sure it would be widely recognized. 18:42:23 knuth morris pratt? 18:42:29 yeah 18:42:35 beach: I flinched for a second too, and I still think I could've phrased it better 18:42:40 Generalized by Aho & Corasick 18:43:12 adeht: Then improved by beach to allow incremental modifications :) 18:43:23 nice :) 18:44:15 *beach* reflects on his scientific history... 18:44:57 *Xach* is in the market for subsequence matching tools 18:45:46 what kind of matching.. 18:46:28 adeht: "does sequence #(8 6 7 5 3 0 9) appear in sequence FOO at position 42" 18:47:00 mismatch? 18:47:03 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 18:47:20 adeht: That's about what I use now. 18:48:07 part of http://xach.com/tmp/search.pdf 18:48:26 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:14 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:49:16 *beach* contemplates making SICL a cl.net project, the advantage being visibility and mailing lists, the risk being another abandoned Lisp project. 18:49:42 sorry, what's SICL? 18:50:06 beach: I don't see how making a project public will contribute to its abandonment 18:50:19 dlowe: Good point! 18:50:29 at least when it's public, there's always the chance it can be picked up again 18:50:34 dlowe: Only to the public disgrace. 18:50:44 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:51:06 *dlowe* keeps feeling like he should un-abandon local-time 18:51:07 hefner: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/SICL/ 18:52:18 dlowe: It would feel better to write my thoughts to an archived mailing list in English, than to write to 7 colleagues in French. 18:52:21 real programmers don't use backups - they put their work on the web and have the world mirror it 18:53:07 dlowe: I don't use backups, but SICL is on the 4 computers I use regularly, so I am not worried. 18:53:07 Zimmerman thought so too ;) 18:54:06 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 hefner: It's a crazy idea where I would like to implement a large part of CL as portable modules that any implementation can import. 18:54:41 *hefner* remembers now, and likes the sound of anything that makes implementing CL easier 18:55:06 dlowe: So I take it you think a cl.net project would be a good idea? 18:56:02 beach: I don't know all the factors you may have in mind. But you haven't said anything that makes me think it'd be a bad idea 18:56:22 dlowe: Thanks for the encouragement! 18:56:52 SICL: the project that was designed to be abandoned!! 18:56:53 local-time is on c-l.net and I haven't had any reason to regret it 18:57:50 dlowe: I am almost convinced. 18:57:57 dlowe: Thanks! 18:58:21 dlowe: This is the idea initiated by Erik Naggum? 18:58:53 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:59:03 Yeah. I've gone pretty far past his paper now, but it was initially just a straight implementation, without the lookup table he described 18:59:43 dlowe: Sure, I don't think the major contribution was his implementation ideas, but the very idea of it. 19:00:12 I think the implementation ideas were also very important 19:00:18 [as I recall; I haven't read it for a few years now] 19:00:35 The main thing local-time is missing now is representation and operations on partial time specifications. Like just a date or a time without reference to a particular point in time 19:00:47 adeht: Oh, OK, I might be misremembering then (which wouldn't be surprising). 19:00:50 I guess because he had to do alot of time-related computation 19:00:57 Well, the choice of epoch of 2000-03-01 was pretty inspired 19:01:07 Indeed. 19:01:10 -!- sykopomp is now known as sykopomp` 19:01:26 as well as the separation of days, times, and fractional seconds 19:01:27 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 19:04:39 beach: are you going to try to prevent cycles in the dependence graph of SICL modules? 19:05:24 easyE [dIkc8Je7iL@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:27 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-133-23.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:05:42 _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-78-12-224-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:07:48 <_6502_> hi all :-) ... if clbuild fails installing hunchentoot, what are is the probability that some other automated tool will work ? 19:07:49 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 19:08:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:52 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:05 if you describe the error and it gets fixed (whether it's a clbuild issue or not) then the likelihood will be pretty good that maybe-fixed-clbuild will work 19:11:04 <_6502_> adeht: the error is about something that it's not available where it should be... "darcs failed: Not a repository: http://common-lisp.net/project/lift" 19:11:40 <_6502_> adeht: but i read somewhere that clbuild was making copies of the packages... so that sounds strange 19:12:16 that's how distributed vcses work 19:12:29 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 19:12:44 and that link doesn't point to a darcs repository, indeed 19:13:12 <_6502_> adeht: i mena i thought that clbuild guys were actually making copies of the repositories to avoid the broken link problems 19:13:17 <_6502_> s/mena/mean/ 19:13:31 _6502_: nope they aren't 19:13:41 I actually have another clbuild issue. Whenever I do clbuild install whatever I get "error: update was interrupted" 19:14:37 it it tells me to clbuild update --resume. Which does not work. 19:15:43 Anyone know what to look into to get this working? 19:16:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 19:16:31 *Xach* would be happy to pay for amazon s3 storage & transfer costs for a static clbuild mirror of some kind, but has no time to investigate how to make it work 19:17:02 do a full clbuild checkout, turn the whole thing into a git repository? 19:17:58 <_6502_> hefner: what do you mean with a full clbuild checkout ? the error i get is that there is a missing package, so there is no such a "full clbuild" thing to begin with 19:18:21 _6502_: not talking to you, sorry 19:18:25 6502: I'm getting clbuild now to check it out 19:20:12 <_8david> schme: look into it by putting "set -x" somewhere at the top of the script. 19:20:44 <_8david> the last output before the error message is what caused it. 19:22:14 -!- _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-78-12-224-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+ssfe] 19:22:19 _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-78-12-224-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:23:22 -!- _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-78-12-224-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:23 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:23:28 _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-78-12-224-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:23:55 *_6502_* will try to understand how this package thing works 19:24:22 _8david: I think I broke it somehow. :) 19:24:26 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:24:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:24:48 _6502_: Isn't this like the 5th time you are here asking why it doesn't work, and we tell you it is because some link is broken? 19:25:31 <_6502_> schme: i understood that the link is broken from the message, thanx 19:25:32 <_8david> also, someone mentioned on the clbuild-devel list that lift has moved to git. cleverly without mentioning the new url (much less send a pull request), and I'm not interested enough in lift to click a link. 19:25:50 I don't get it. a fresh clbuild install works just fine. and when I diff the two clbuild scripts they're identical. 19:25:52 aintme [~Miranda@158.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:25:53 hrrrm. 19:26:12 and it seems to create a .clbuild-resume for me just to make me go crazy. 19:26:15 <_6502_> scheme: however the "lift" project is right there on common-lisp.net... but it's git, not darcs 19:26:23 cools. 19:26:29 change the projects file :) 19:28:12 <_6502_> schme: understanding how packages work is too difficult ? 19:28:27 _6502_: is in wnpp-projects . you just change get_darcs whatever to get_git whatever. 19:28:31 *_6502_* hates black magic. Especially when it doesn't work. 19:28:37 -!- lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:45 There is no real black magic going on here. just bash magic :) 19:29:30 6502: the author changed his vcs and repo location.. what magic? 19:29:57 _8david: http://github.com/gwkkwg 19:29:57 <_8david> the ratio of clbuild users to clbuild maintainers is insanely high. And that for a project where every user willing to copy his directory to ~/public_html could count as a maintainer. 19:30:03 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 19:30:04 <_8david> Distributed version control has evidently failed big time. 19:30:24 <_6502_> fatal: http://common-lisp.net/project/lift/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server? 19:31:04 ./clbuild install lift => 47 system definition files registered. 19:31:05 6502: you didn't change the url 19:31:45 perhaps there should be some clbuild bot 19:33:44 <_6502_> ok... now started... but isn't clbuild supposed to take care exactly of these things ? 19:34:11 No. 19:34:25 _8david: consider that clbuild's most enthusiastic adopters are people too lazy/foolish to check things out of version control themselves. are you surprised? 19:35:43 *_6502_* begins to understand what "lispers never release" means 19:35:46 _6502_: clbuild is supposed to look in some files to see where a project is located, and grab it + set up the system magic. 19:36:05 6502: maybe if there was a way for an author of a library to register a change in clbuild's configuration 19:37:26 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 19:37:58 adeht: What an interesting idea :) 19:38:58 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:03 _6502_: I get the same issues all the time with my package manager here for linux. Sometimes some project moves to a new url, or whatever. and the maintainer of the pkg for it does not update the pkg and ... shit don't work :) 19:39:11 <_6502_> that would make the update operation more or less a "official release" action by the author 19:39:55 _6502_: If this really bugs you. Then perhaps you should look into making a "sbcl with batteries" thing. and take responsibility for everything just working and links being up to date :) 19:39:58 no, that has nothing to do with releases 19:40:05 <_6502_> scheme: i don't use too much stuff... and the ubuntu repository (or tar + ./config + make works 99% of the times for other stuff) 19:40:08 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-69-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:40:36 it has to do with clbuildability 19:40:43 _6502_: yes.. that is because the ubuntu maintainers take care of keeping the repos up to date, and don't really do things the "ports" way. :) 19:41:05 the way to deal with "releases" is tags 19:41:14 <_6502_> scheme: indeed on my mac i've much bigger pronlems 19:41:19 schme: you mean the debian maintainers take care of keeping the repos up to date. :) 19:41:20 <_6502_> problems 19:41:29 foom: I gave up on debian :) 19:41:43 schme: that's rather irrelevant, though, isn't it? 19:42:03 _6502_: What I am suggesting is that you make something like the ubuntu repos, but for sbcl or whatever lisp you use.and you take responsibility for keeping it up to date. 19:42:23 foom: It seemed to be working quite well last time I checked though? 19:42:28 <_6502_> scheme: and this without trying to understand how the package installation machinery works ? 19:42:33 adeht: a vcs tag is by no means a release 19:42:59 foom: there is a difference between a stable debian release, and just pulling projects from vcs all over the internets :) 19:43:02 fe[nl]ix: it's a way to bless a snapshot 19:43:44 _6502_: You can learn how that works. It is mostly just putting links to the .asds in your central-registry dir :) 19:43:49 (s) 19:44:06 schme: Sorry, my only point was that for the most part it's the debian maintainers who are keeping your OS (ubuntu) up to date. 19:44:16 fe[nl]ix: some snapshots you want to call releases, perhaps giving them a branch.. or do you have something more in mind? 19:44:19 foom: I dunno. I never have had an ubuntu install. 19:44:35 foom: I thought it was ubuntu people doing ubuntu. I guess live and learn :) 19:45:05 *schme* lives on the ever messed up arch linux. (: 19:45:25 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:46:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:46:39 *_6502_* feels more stupid than a teen-age from new york 19:47:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:47:51 fe[nl]ix: I suppose there's the issue of stable dependencies. 19:48:06 fe[nl]ix: but that has more to do with something like asdf ;) 19:48:27 <_6502_> clbuild just does the download ? what else is needed to actually install the packages ? 19:48:37 _6502_: What clbuild does is pull sources from various places on the internet, and sets up your lisp implementations system stuff so your lisp is aware of these things. Much like pkgsrc, pkgbuilds, portage, etc. etc. If the file that lists the projects is not up to date, then stuff dies. Unlike ubuntu repos where stuff is all in one place :) 19:49:07 <_6502_> scheme: except that my lisp is not aware of those things... 19:49:09 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-83-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:49:36 <_6502_> scheme: clbuild completed, without errors 19:49:41 _6502_: huh.. clbuild should have set the required links up. 19:50:01 _6502_: How are you starting up ze lisp? 19:50:30 <_6502_> scheme: but this doesn't work ---> (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 4242)) 19:50:42 <_6502_> schme: clbuild lisp 19:50:46 oh 19:50:49 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 (require 'hunchentoot) ? 19:50:55 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 19:51:15 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 19:51:53 egoz_ [~Egoz@114.79.55.29] has joined #lisp 19:51:55 <_6502_> schme: Don't know how to REQUIRE HUCHENTOOT 19:52:08 6502: spell it correctly 19:53:20 -!- egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:53:39 _6502_: clbuild does the linux side of things.. sets up some symbolic links and puts files where they should be. Then you start lisp and it doesn't load stuff into the image unless you actually ask it to. :) 19:54:12 <_6502_> debugger invoked on a ASDF:MISSING-DEPENDENCY ... component :TRIVIAL-BACKTRACE not found 19:54:34 adeht: yes. a file with a proper version, depending only on released libraries, etc... 19:54:34 6502: you could have a small program to load all the libraries you usually use and then save a core.. then use that core instead of the default one 19:55:12 _6502_: This means that the clbuild dependency info is not correct. Try clbuild install trivial-backtrace for a quick fix :) 19:56:00 _6502_: ooor add the dependency to the dependency file :) 19:56:34 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:36 Maybe it would be nice with an in-lisp clbuild. 19:56:36 fe[nl]ix: I heard about "buildout" from the python camp and it sounded ok 19:56:51 So things like this popped up a restart with "INSTALL PACKAGE". 19:57:17 I guess one could shell out. 19:57:19 hrrrmmm. 19:57:35 <_6502_> compilation of trivial-backtrace failed... 19:57:39 <_6502_> Symbol "DEBUG-SOURCE-NAMESTRING" not found in the SB-DI package. 19:58:20 odd. it works here. 19:58:24 *_6502_* thinks that by the time he'll be able to get hunchentoot working the web concept will have been surpassed 19:59:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 maybe it was exported and now isn't? 19:59:24 <_6502_> may be hunchentoot isn't supported on sbcl/linux ? 19:59:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:39 works for me 20:00:02 _6502_: out of curiosity, what version of SBCL are you using? 20:00:33 <_6502_> 1.0.18 debian 20:00:35 "Hint: SBCL 1.0.37 is so -yesterday-." 20:00:37 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:00:41 0.18 ! 20:00:50 Heh. 18! 20:00:51 6502: you should clbuild install sbcl 20:01:03 or just download it from sbcl.org 20:01:26 _6502_: And then uninstall every single ubuntu/debian package that is lisp related ;) 20:01:29 Let's go over this: One release per month, and .38 was released today... That's 20 months, or more than a year and a half. 20:01:31 <_6502_> eek 20:01:38 <_6502_> it's downloading sbcl from cvs 20:01:53 eek indeed, better use the git mirror :( 20:02:03 or a binary release. 20:02:17 <_6502_> i don't think that sbcl will compile out of the box 20:02:23 Current CVS shouldn't be too broken, though... 20:02:26 Why not? 20:02:38 6502: make sure you didn't uninstall debian-sbcl before trying to compile new-sbcl 20:02:59 will clbuild enable threads automatically? 20:03:06 <_6502_> it will crash for a cryptic reason... you guys will say "what kernel do you have ?" then i'll have to install a kernel from cvs 20:03:09 -!- maden_ [~maden@198.168.103.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:15 <_6502_> and i'll never be able to boot this computer 20:03:16 hefner: SBCL defaults to threading enabled on some platforms now. 20:03:17 actually I don't know if a version that old will be able to compile 20:03:36 _6502_: You're not running a 2.4 kernel, are you? 20:03:45 eslick [~eslick@c-98-207-156-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:02 _6502_: installing software isn't difficult. once you get going you won't understand how you ever had any trouble. 20:04:03 (If you are, for god's sake, upgrade! Otherwise, you should be mostly good on that front.) 20:04:15 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:17 <_6502_> actually clbuild finished sbcl install... but no compilation started 20:05:19 yes, upgrade from your narrow 8-bit mind. It's a wide 64-bit world out there! 20:05:19 Fare, memo from rudybot: Axioplase_ told me to tell you: Oui, je suis français. 20:05:47 Fare: I laughed. :) 20:05:51 _6502_: Yeah, there's some odd clbuild command to make it actually -build- a lisp. 20:06:00 6502: a simple matter of `sh make.sh' 20:06:16 nyef: oh 20:06:28 compile-implementation sbcl 20:06:32 is it reasonable to ask 1.0.39 to include ASDF 2 ? 20:06:34 *nyef* has to ask what that command is -every bloody time-. 20:06:35 sorry 20:06:45 _6502_: clbuild compile-implementation sbcl 20:06:52 is it reasonable to ask 1.0.38.x to beta-test ASDF 1.711 ? 20:07:19 <_6502_> it's crunching bytes ... 20:07:20 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 20:07:43 <_6502_> it's building latest version using version .18 ? 20:08:15 6502: it has to bootstrap it somehow 20:09:05 _6502_: I'm curious here. I have seen you have problems installing hunchentoot for.. a week now? How come you have not given up on it, and everything lisp? :) 20:09:07 <_6502_> adeht: i thought it would bootstram from an a4 page hand-written in 1958 :-) 20:09:25 _6502_: this dedication.. it puzzles me. 20:10:00 <_6502_> schme: actually i spent most of the time working on my own toy lisp implementation... 20:10:06 oh cools. 20:10:27 I thought you were mostly new to lisp. and I figured something like this would scare you away. I guess I was mistaken there :) 20:10:28 <_6502_> schme: today i crushed the worst bug ever in the gc... horribly rare 20:10:58 <_6502_> schme: i am new to lisp... i for example only learned yesterday that apply can have more than two arguments 20:11:14 _6502_: Maybe not in your lisp :) 20:11:50 <_6502_> schme: but i'm a bottom-up guy... so i wrote a toy lisp starting from a C kernel to understand how things could possibly work 20:11:54 *_6502_* hates magic 20:12:17 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:12:37 but lisp is all about casting spels :S 20:12:39 <_6502_> schme: my apply version is truly horrible... actually it's so bad that i even added a comment that there's something wrong for it being so ugly 20:13:23 <_6502_> schme: the problem is that i made funcall a primitive function... i should have done the opposite... having primitive apply and build funcall 20:13:23 hoh. 20:13:34 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.49.120] has joined #lisp 20:13:51 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.54.82] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:14:03 antifuchs wrote about how to make that work 20:14:20 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:15:21 codeassembly [~givan@188.25.30.96] has joined #lisp 20:15:38 <_6502_> schme: to give you an idea about how ugly is my apply i'll just say that has to call a function to quote all elements of a list (sort of an anti-evlis) 20:15:41 _6502_: I actually remember a long time ago when I was in school and I put a comment like { black magic! } in some code instead of some silly description on what was going on. teacher got very upset with me. He didn't like magic. :) 20:16:03 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 20:16:25 <_6502_> hmm... build completed... but failed building sb-concurrency 20:16:29 Magic is so much more fun when you can understand it. 20:17:01 _6502_: no worries, no one uses sb-concurrency 20:17:26 <_6502_> and clbuild lisp still runs 0.18 debian 20:17:46 uninstall debian-sbcl and INSTALL_ROOT=/usr/local sh install.sh 20:17:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:17:55 huh. 20:17:56 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDF6B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:18:05 I didn't think you needed the install.sh with clbuild 20:18:20 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 20:18:23 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:27 schme: perhaps you don't 20:18:37 (I don't use clbuild) 20:18:45 adeht: I dunno. I see I do have a /usr/local/bin/sbcl here. so maybe it did it for me. 20:19:07 _6502_: maybe your bash or whatnot has cached the path to sbcl :) 20:21:02 <_6502_> schme: closing and restarting the shell didn't help 20:21:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: help! the xkcd has me!] 20:21:35 i guess maybe you need to try the adeht advice :) 20:22:11 uninstall the debian SBCL. it's probably coming up first in your PATH. 20:22:21 (it's also cursed) 20:22:37 -!- aintme [~Miranda@158.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: /* */] 20:22:44 <_6502_> i'm uninstalling 20:24:28 <_6502_> 1.0.38.4 20:26:02 <_6502_> yay! 20:26:13 *_6502_* feels like a teeneager just arrived in new york 20:26:32 I don't understand these teenager + new york references :S 20:26:43 _6502_: happy web developing! 20:26:44 <_6502_> schme: it's from the hunchentoot page 20:29:30 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:30:41 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-95.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:31:20 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:31:29 synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-212-212.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:11 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:35:40 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:36:23 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:50 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:37:24 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:14 neorab [~neorab@67-60-35-163.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:32 -!- md` [~user@85-135-137-223.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:36 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:41:58 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:18 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:51:29 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-83-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:51:34 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-36-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:51:41 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has quit [Quit: pdponze] 20:52:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:08 Mohikaner [~moe@stgt-5d840614.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:43 -!- Mohikaner [~moe@stgt-5d840614.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 21:01:10 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:01:36 -!- eslick [~eslick@c-98-207-156-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:03:47 jao [~jao@6.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:10 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.49.120] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:05:44 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:55 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:37 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:51 skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 21:09:57 -!- leifw [~user@dhcp-gigadmz-144.algorithm.cs.sunysb.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:14 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:12:31 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:12:33 Good evening! 21:12:59 hello beach 21:13:02 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:14:45 hi beach 21:15:29 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:46 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:18:18 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:18:20 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:18:38 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.8] has joined #lisp 21:21:10 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:22:15 -!- codeassembly [~givan@188.25.30.96] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:23:25 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:24:11 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:35 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:42 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:43 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:36 *_6502_* 's compiler sucks bad 21:31:06 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:31:17 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:32:17 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:33:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:35:52 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:37:44 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 21:38:08 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:38:22 *dmiles_afk* took a class in '85 for 6502 assembly.. i dont remember it having a compiler :( 21:38:45 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 21:39:27 -!- vk [~vk@ppp-94-64-208-167.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:55 I've seen a couple compilers for a 6502. 21:44:36 oh actualyl yes i had a pascal compiler 21:44:52 i was thinking mentally of a C compiler 21:45:41 i wish they would have taught us something like instead 21:46:43 "they"? 21:46:43 <_6502_> i mean the compiler i wrote sucks :-) ... 21:47:02 the high school system 21:47:10 (in USA) 21:47:22 cl-who:with-html-output expands differently depending on the value of cl-who:*downcase-tokens* at macroexpand time. Is there anything like the LISPM's COMPILER-LET in Common Lisp? 21:47:25 <_6502_> i think i never used a compiler on 6502... at that time i was either writing in asm or using applesoft basic 21:47:30 So that I could bind it during macroexpansion 21:47:31 ? 21:47:44 I am sure in college school system probly taught it 21:47:56 *beach* doesn't understand why people insist on living in the US. :( 21:48:14 me too.. i was either writing in asm or using applesoft basic 21:48:35 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:49:12 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:49:34 oh and pascal was there.. i guess it was a step above basic 21:49:42 *beach* also doesn't understand why there are still people living in Sweden, but that's for a different reason. 21:49:50 as far as making it easy to organize how things would work 21:49:55 <_6502_> dmiles: if you get nostalgic i wrote a 6502 emulator and a pretty rough apple ][ emulator... 21:50:29 <_6502_> dmiles: i saw ucsd pascal... but was using a vm approach i think 21:50:44 _6502_: yeah it be fun to use an old game or two 21:50:50 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:00 yeah basic in its own rioght was a vm 21:51:34 <_6502_> dmiles: eheh...i emulated text-mode only (i'm lazy ;-) ... but you can get it from my abandoned homepage (www.gripho.it) 21:51:53 well a vm in a way uses the what basic used maybe? 21:52:13 I'm still not convinced Europe isn't a fiction populated by vampires. Vampires who will say anything to lure hapless (and non-Muslim) victims to their shores, so they may drink their blood and/or steal their souls. 21:52:36 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:19 beach: some people are mortally scared of living in US 21:53:20 hefner: I was born in Transilvania 21:53:25 <_6502_> dmiles: i think ucsd pascal was a bytecode compiler (a la java), applesoft was interpreted 21:53:43 *p_l* certainly doesn't want to move to US 21:53:57 hefner: and I'm coming to get you 21:54:00 ...some may think this sounds ridiculous, but ask yourself this - why are the europeans only around when it's clearly dark outside? 21:54:01 *_6502_* liked living in US (was before 9/11, tho) 21:54:22 vampires, obviously. 21:54:36 hefner: because you were looking during work week near winter on friday 21:54:37 i likesd the USA until greenspan raised the interest rate 5 times in a 6 month period 21:55:00 a year later 9/11 happened 21:55:14 maybe 5 months later 21:55:19 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:51 *dmiles_afk* is googling to see if it was really 5 times though 21:56:12 anyway, we can't all move to europe, or there'd be no one around to keep the mexicans from taking over. 21:56:14 when he forcably burst the dot com bubble 21:56:30 (which had no reason to be burst) 21:56:43 boggle 21:56:59 heh. dotcom bubble... 21:57:24 yes there was no bubble it was just a thriving technology sector 21:57:47 that was growing becasue it was easy to invest in for the middle classes 21:57:58 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:06 dmiles_afk: you're funny, but I think this isn't the right forum for that discussion 21:58:13 when the interest rates went up it was harder and harder to invest in 21:58:29 dmiles_afk: "forceably" 21:58:48 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:55 dmiles_afk: at least some of the companies I heard of had truly dead-end ideas 21:59:16 well the problem greenspan said was the interest rate was too low.. and had no way to move it arround.. it was like 1% so his goal was to get it up higher 21:59:26 so for me it's still a bubble, like lately some other trends 21:59:52 1% -> 2% is like cutting everyones "barely a profit" in 1/2 22:00:37 so there was very little incentive for investers to take a risk.. they had twice as much to lose 22:01:12 sure indeed many companies would fail.. lots of bad ideas. but you onlty had to be right 1/2 as often with that lower interest rate 22:01:18 younder, is that you? 22:01:54 people could invst in twice as many bad ideas :) 22:03:55 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:09 ok i grosly eagertated it went from 7.75->9.50 over a two year person 22:07:14 ok i grosly eagertated it went from 7.75->9.50 over a two year period 22:07:30 but that was the killer in my optimion 22:07:49 \derp [~yum@wikimedia/fail] has joined #lisp 22:07:57 (or i am looking at the wrong graph) 22:08:02 maybe you should sit a little closer to the computer 22:08:16 nooooo :) 22:08:17 you're talking in the wrong irc channel, that's for sure. 22:08:53 irc://irc.gnaa.eu pasted "THIS CHAT HAS MOVED TO IRC.GNAA.EU" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98622 22:10:07 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:10:13 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:10:18 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:47 ... 22:11:18 *_6502_* doesn't like too much the "..." thing of scheme 22:11:19 someone hand me a nuke... and a launch system. Please? 22:12:46 *nyef* doesn't have any nukes... Would a fork bomb suffice? 22:13:01 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:49 nyef: I doubt it... 22:14:05 *dmiles_afk* was googling.. funny timing about pastebin 22:14:13 unless it managed to fork over network and then forkbomb all of GNAA pests 22:14:16 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 22:15:28 foom: is that a lisp channel there trying to get patrons? hehe everyone go over there and talk politics for a while 22:17:00 -!- \derp is now known as \dev\random 22:17:35 -!- kruth [~chatzilla@kruth.org] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 22:19:38 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19:56 i did exagerate: it actually took greenspan almost two years to kill the techology sector. not six months.. each time he raised the rate ... the company i worked at freaked out.. laid off people.. but also lost competition at the same time 22:20:08 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:15 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.8] has quit [Quit: back up to 23 channels, yay] 22:20:25 ok enough said on the topic by me 22:20:37 iPac [~bubble@p54AA64C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:18 *nyef* sighs. 22:21:30 Once again, I need to figure out how the SBCL calling convention works. 22:24:08 nyef: would usage of standard calling convention be that bad? :D 22:25:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:51 p_l: And have to re-code all of the backends, the runtime support, and the debugger? 22:28:03 nyef: no, just asking what are technical reasons not to go with standard platform ABI 22:28:42 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:28:55 or is it just a CMU legacy 22:28:58 Well, to start with, the platform ABI rarely supports multiple-value return... 22:29:12 p_l: There are some actual things: multiple value returns, tail calls. But mainly, just that it's not the way it works now and would be hard to change. 22:29:22 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:35 Why are destructuring-* separate from regular binding and variable-setting functions? 22:29:40 foom: ok, just checking 22:29:47 pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:49 Surely the implementation can just inspect the argument of setq or let to see whether it's a destructuring form. 22:29:51 quotemstr: Because they were added later. 22:30:04 nyef: But wouldn't making them destructuring be a backwards-compatible extension? 22:30:12 After all, (setq (foo bar qux) (spam)) was never legal. 22:30:19 quotemstr: because common lisp is an old language, and it shows. 22:30:38 Rule 17: Don't use SETQ. 22:30:49 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:31:03 quotemstr: if you manage to get through a new ANSI process, you might do something about that. Have fun trying to get people converted ;-) 22:31:13 nyef: is that from a published list of rules, or did you just pull the 17 out of your hat? 22:31:18 Well, you couldn't use SETF for destructuring because of the ambiguity with setters. 22:31:32 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31:57 p_l: Well, I keep coming here and asking random questions about the design of the language because I'm writing my own mostly-compatible Lisp, and if there's no good reason not to do that, LET and SETQ will destructure automatically. 22:32:03 billstclair: I'm not wearing a hat, but no, no published list like that that I'm aware of. 22:32:24 ok big question... relates.. a symbol-macro usually uses a form of setf? 22:32:29 I have noticed that most people use setf exclusively, and I've adopted the practice, but see no real problem with setq, which I used to use whenever I didn't really need setf 22:32:50 dmiles_afk: Yes, setq is automagically translated to setf when the target is a symbol-macro. 22:33:03 In fact, as far as CL goes, I really don't see how making setq and setf always equivalent would hurt anything. 22:33:13 (Again, without automatic destructuring.) 22:33:33 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Quit: palter] 22:33:41 if someone tries to put a shadow binding on such a symbol.. should it hit the setf expander? 22:33:57 -!- _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-78-12-224-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+ssfe] 22:34:04 _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-78-12-224-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:34:07 then unwind/undo on the exit? 22:34:09 That's what symbol-macrolet specifies. 22:34:14 Oh, you mean dynamic scope? 22:34:17 That doesn't work, and really couldn't. 22:34:26 well like in the case of a special 22:34:31 sounds like letf 22:34:47 ah yeah i kinda wondering if the let is a letf 22:35:03 Ah, I see. 22:35:20 when it comoes to s special that is symbol-macro.. but i better check ut symbol-acrolet to see 22:35:28 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 22:37:24 ok 22:37:29 ok "A binding for a symbol macro can be shadowed[2] by let or symbol-macrolet. " 22:37:47 "Any use of setq to set the value of the symbol while in the scope of this definition is treated as if it were a setf. psetq of symbol is treated as if it were a psetf, and multiple-value-setq is treated as if it were a setf of values" 22:38:15 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 22:38:50 cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:51 dang, i still trying to understand if let becomes like a letf ;\ 22:38:59 Try it and see. 22:39:00 *_6502_* didn't implement symbol macros 22:39:18 _6502_: It's not that hard if you have environments anyway. 22:39:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:40:19 quotemstr: guess i have to.. kk 22:41:42 -!- kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:41:59 *quotemstr* wonders whether it's worthwhile to try to stop the user from binding nil and t 22:41:59 <_6502_> quotemstr: hehehe... i suppose my implementation is totally weird; i started it without knowing much of lisp. For example i do macro expansion by backpatching the original list inplace 22:42:13 is there any faster way to read a null-terminated string than that described in PCL 22:42:14 kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 22:42:22 _6502_: I thought about doing that lazily, actually, but I figured the semantics might be too weird. 22:42:27 _6502_: that mauy almost work most of the time 22:42:34 _6502_: But then again, my lisp macroexpands eagerly, so I don't particularly care if macro expansion is expensive. 22:43:59 <_6502_> quotemstr: yeah... it's done lazily; if eval finds that the car of the list is a macro then evaluates the macro and replaces the list inplace 22:44:31 _6502_: Yeah, that is pretty weird. Macroexpansion becomes less predictable too. 22:44:42 _6502_: Do you have lexical scope at least? 22:44:57 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:45:00 Implementing a dynamically-scoped Lisp without fancy macro environments and such is trivial. 22:45:05 <_6502_> quotemstr: not in the interpreter... i'm implementing it in the compiler 22:45:21 _6502_: It's probably a bad idea for the interpreter and compiler to differ on that point. 22:45:43 -!- kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:51 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:16 kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 22:46:29 <_6502_> quotemstr: i know... but i didn't devise a smart way of doing lexical in the interpreter (and indeed it was before i knew about the difference between lexical/dynamic) 22:46:35 eslick [~eslick@173-13-186-118-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:46 _6502_: Spaghetti stacks. 22:47:01 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:47:12 <_6502_> quotemstr: i've closures however... they are like "(defun adder (x) (with-closure (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))))" 22:47:22 Reminds me of elisp lexical-let. 22:47:48 The oddest thing about my implementation is that it's a lisp-1, and that it uses reference counting with a cycle detector instead of mark-sweep GC. 22:48:02 But the evaluation model (lisp-1ness aside) are identical to CL. 22:48:08 s/are/is/ 22:48:47 cddr: read it from where? 22:48:59 <_6502_> quotemstr: my gc is a dead simple mark/sweep, and still i'm getting surprises from it 22:49:22 What kind of surprises? 22:49:47 p_l: a socket stream 22:51:45 cddr: well, I suspect (read-delimited-list (code-char 0)) might work... but reading strings of unknown length is always tricky 22:51:47 <_6502_> quotemstr: i removed one bug today... in some code in the kernel i was keeping the result of a function lookup in a C variable, and the bug was about getting a gc in the middle of a function updating that function slot 22:52:17 _6502_: See, with gc and C++ smart pointers, the worst that'll happen is that garbage stays around a little longer than it would otherwise. 22:52:30 with reference counting, I mean. 22:52:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:34 mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.134.184.174] has joined #lisp 22:53:57 ... With reference counting the worst that happens is your heap fills up with inaccessible cycles. 22:54:18 nyef: Not with a cycle detector. 22:54:38 You also pay quite a bit for keeping the counts up-to-date. 22:54:51 nyef: It's only really expensive if you need updates to be atomic. 22:54:59 <_6502_> quotemstr: i love intrusive smart pointers, but i think that for lisp a exact gc is best... and also i wanted to try to implement it (it's my first garbage collected language) 22:55:07 I don't give a damn about thread safety because I don't believe in combining preemptive multitasking and shared memory. 22:56:34 *nyef* notes that the common lisp specification doesn't actually call for garbage collection. 22:56:43 even without needing to be atomic, the updates are still quite expensive 22:56:57 foom: Plus, compilers can optimize out many common cases. 22:57:10 <_6502_> also the space penality is important... my cells are 8 bytes, they would need to grow to 12 22:57:19 foom: DF Bacon was able to get his to within 5% of a normal garbage collector, and the advantage of reference counting increases with heap size. 22:57:37 I'm not sure what a "normal" garbage collector is 22:57:41 _6502_: No, because for a mark-sweep GC, you need to keep all allocates objects on a single list so you can mark and sweep them. 22:57:52 _6502_: Which means that you either write your own heap, or add overhead for the list links. 22:58:04 quotemstr: -what-? 22:58:06 foom: Some kind of generational mark-and-sweep thing. 22:58:11 <_6502_> quotemstr: nope... i allocate cells in pages, so there's no overhead at all 22:58:23 _6502_: Ah, good idea. There's still page overhead though. 22:58:24 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.170.145] has joined #lisp 22:58:34 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:58:42 For a mark-sweep system, you allocate everything in heap pages, then use a markbits array. 22:58:45 nyef: You need a way to visit all allocated objects so you can sweep them. 22:58:50 quotemstr: touching memory is also disastrous for sharing memory across processes. 22:58:55 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:58:59 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:59:22 quotemstr: Yes. So you carve out a chunk of space for heap. 22:59:29 foom: One idea I had was to use a layer of indirection; instead of a reference count, an object would just contain a pointer to a reference count, and all the reference counts would be allocated contiguously. That might minimize the pain. 22:59:53 quotemstr: An -extra- indirection is supposed to reduce pain? 22:59:53 and double the space overhead 23:00:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:00:08 nyef: at least the writes are all close together then 23:00:12 <_6502_> hmmm... markbits 23:00:14 nyef: Sure, because then you don't need to update random places in memory anymore. All your updates are concentrated in a much smaller region that can be kept in cache. 23:00:22 And now you also have to GC your refcount slots. 23:00:28 *_6502_* used under-utilized bits in the cells 23:00:28 one of the more interesting GC schemas I had seen had all the code transformed into CPS with GC executing when the stack fails :D 23:00:30 nyef: Sure, but you can do _that_ with markbits. :-) 23:01:13 Besides, it's utterly impossible to get precise GC working properly when a lot of code is written in C and C++. At least reference counts Just Work. 23:01:24 quotemstr: imprecise GC also Just Works. 23:01:34 foom: Conservative GC scares the daylights out of me. 23:01:53 foom: But if that turns out to be a win, I can just make all the reference count updates non-ops and use Boehm. 23:02:08 Heh. The non-conservative version of gencgc on SBCL scares me. 23:02:26 Admittedly, because I fail to see where it accounts for pins. 23:02:28 quotemstr: yes. You should maybe try that first. Boehm can also use annotations so that you don't need to be quite *so* conservative 23:02:29 <_6502_> sbcl uses a conservative gc ??? 23:02:42 _6502_: For the stack, on x86. 23:02:45 (I don't know about x86-64.) 23:03:00 you can give boehm precise layout information for objects. 23:03:04 _6502_: Only on x86oids, for stacks and register contexts... the latter of which are usually stored on the stack. 23:03:08 foom: Well, the refcount-gc already works well, so until profiling shows it's a problem, I'll just leave it in. 23:03:13 p_l: cheers, will try that to see if it works 23:03:17 foom: I didn't know about Boehm annotations. That's interesting. 23:04:01 quotemstr: The problem with wanting a profiler to pinpoint refcounts as a trouble is that, if you inline your refcount updates, you don't get to see the actual overhead. 23:04:15 nyef: Sure, but I can just make them out-of-line to get a general feeling for the expense. 23:04:20 nyef: And subtract out the function-call overhead. 23:04:20 Mono used it that way, as did Gnustep's Objective-C API. 23:04:23 cddr: however, I advise to simply send the size of a string first :-) 23:04:24 -!- skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:28 nyef: Also, oprofile and some other tools can do instruction-level profiling. 23:04:38 <_6502_> quotemstr: that would be nonsense on any recent processor 23:04:52 _6502_: So I'll run it on an Atom. :-) 23:05:05 tensorpudding [~user@99.160.223.160] has joined #lisp 23:05:24 "reference counts Just ..." LOL, A student came to Moon and said ... 23:05:24 quotemstr: hopefully not the first one... 23:05:29 *_6502_* thinks passive profiling rocks 23:06:05 *foom* thinks profiling is a frickin disaster zone on Linux 23:06:14 Devon: That's one of the better koans. 23:06:19 *p_l* recalls something about first Atom CPU actually not being a new cpu, but a P54C after face lifting 23:06:27 foom: Agreed to some extent; oprofile is nice. 23:06:34 foom: Also, systemtap can allegedly profile userspace these days. 23:06:52 Also, another way to measure refcount overhead is to just use the null garbage collector. 23:06:57 quotemstr: disagree, oprofile is practically useless, it doesn't give working call-graphs on x86-64 23:06:59 Sure, the heap will fill up, but that's not a problem if you don't run very long. 23:07:10 foom: I seldom use 64-bit code. 23:07:53 quotemstr: unfortunately, the world moves in that direction :-D 23:08:14 p_l: valgrind is also useless on my platform with 64-bit code, so that might be part of what's holding me back. :-) 23:08:19 Does anyone actually understand DEFINE-FULL-CALL on non-x86oid? It's a completely different pattern than the x86oid version, and there seems to be some truly weird control flow in it. 23:08:27 I had a nice discussion on this topic recently on lwn.net: http://lwn.net/Articles/379949/ 23:09:01 foom: I remember that discussion. 23:09:33 foom: Shouldn't oprofile in principle be able to use libunwind to inspect the DWARF stack-tracing stuff? 23:10:13 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:10:37 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 23:10:38 See also lwn.net discussion. But short answer: No, because it runs in the kernel. But it could do what libunwind does, but written for the kernel. 23:11:01 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 23:11:48 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754636.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:32 <_6502_> how does one keep track of the source code associated to a form ? a separate hash table may be ? 23:13:26 Madsy [~Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 23:13:46 foom: The absence is a call graph is my main problem with most Javascript profilers too. 23:13:56 -!- egoz_ [~Egoz@114.79.55.29] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:14:08 foom: Then again, most people writing Javascript are web programmers, so I don't blame them for not missing such an advanced concept. ;-) 23:14:16 foom: (Which is why I wrote a goddamn callgraph profiler for SpiderMonkey.) 23:14:36 _6502_: There really isn't a good way. Emacs uses the load-history variable. 23:14:44 egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.29] has joined #lisp 23:15:35 _6502_: You could certainly associate each cons cell with the location from which it was read, but that information would be destroyed by macroexpansion and compilation unless you went to great pains. 23:16:58 no actually i think it works quite well . . . 23:17:22 <_6502_> quotemstr: macroexpansion shouldn't be a problem... 23:17:24 c|mell: What does? 23:17:30 macroexpansion generally preserves a lot of the original structure 23:17:36 _6502_: You just have to add the source information to the macroexpanded form. 23:17:37 which is why M-. works in SLIME 23:17:43 c|mell: Not in the general case though. 23:18:00 c|mell: If it happens to work, great, but it should be robust. 23:18:39 -!- lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]] 23:18:45 Then there's also the matter of your location hash table extending the lifetime of loaded code. 23:19:11 You can use a weak hash table of course, but if your lisp doesn't have weak references, you need to write them. :-) 23:19:14 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:19:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:20:14 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:20:29 quidnunc [~user@70.49.123.43] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 Guthur [~Michael@host86-145-186-155.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:25 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 23:25:17 <_6502_> a weak hash table would be easy if implemented in the kernel... after gc i can just remove all entries pointing to collected objects 23:26:07 _6502_: Well, assuming it's safe to tell whether a particular pointer refers to a collected object. That can get tricky. 23:26:50 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 23:26:56 chicago_andy [~user@c-24-1-117-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:23 anybody at the keyboard? 23:27:23 <_6502_> quotemstr: not if done in the kernel just after gc... i've a tag for free objects and cleaning up wouldn't require any consing 23:27:28 xan_ [~xan@87.223.161.65] has joined #lisp 23:27:55 is there any documentation on sb-unix:unix-select? 23:28:19 _6502_: Fair enough. Weak references in my GC scheme are a little trickier. 23:30:01 it seems like it's expecting the file descriptors lists to be unsigned bytes 23:30:05 Why don't you "just" attach source-location information as a slot in your function objects? 23:30:19 nyef: Then you only get function-level resolution. 23:30:27 DanC [~connolly@70.94.4.81] has joined #lisp 23:30:30 nyef: And nothing about lambdas. 23:30:35 chicago_andy: You know that that's not a supported function, right? 23:30:49 well crud 23:30:53 nyef: (Unless we're talking about slightly different things; I imagine you're talking about adding source location to each function symbol's plist.) 23:31:00 chicago_andy: Have a look at iolib. 23:31:10 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:31:12 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:15 chicago_andy: Or (shudder) serve-event, which is part of sbcl. 23:31:33 I'm trying to run somebody's lisp code (http://svn.neurocommons.org/svn/trunk/sharednames/gleaner/src/ ). I learned lisp years and years ago, but I'm new to clbuild, slime, and asdf 23:31:46 <_6502_> nyef: hmm... indeed i could add an extra element to the &procedure thing 23:31:49 iolib work for os x/darwin? 23:31:51 I think I've got clbuild and slime working, but now I get: 23:31:58 Symbol "LOAD-SYSTEM" not found in the ASDF package. 23:32:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:32:05 quotemstr: I've been knee deep in SBCL internals all week. I'm definitely talking about hacking up your function object layout. 23:32:08 DanC: you have old ASDF. 23:32:20 nyef: Ah, I see. 23:32:29 the asdf docs say ... yeah... old ASDF... I just installed all this stuff today; how is my ASDF old? 23:32:37 nyef: Besides, SBCL can do whatever the hell it wants. It's a real compiler. I'm talking about small interpreters. 23:32:55 DanC: what implementation? 23:33:01 sbcl, I guess 23:33:02 quotemstr: Even with a small interpreter, you need something to serve as a function object. 23:33:08 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:33:14 DanC: which version? 23:33:17 sbcl: 23:33:17 Installed: 1:1.0.29.11-1 23:33:35 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:35 it's what 'apt-get install sbcl' gives on this ubuntu 9.10 box 23:33:36 nyef: I believe antique lisps implemented "functions" by attaching lambda forms to symbol property lists. :-) 23:34:41 <_6502_> quotemstr: you mean the result of evaluating lambda forms... that is the &procedure thing i was talking about, i.e. a function object 23:35:22 DanC: the current version is 1.0.38, which includes newer ASDF version, you can try to get it through clbuild (clbuild install sbcl; clbuild compile-implementation sbcl) or you can try using binaries from sbcl.org 23:35:25 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 sigh 23:35:48 DanC: Let me guess, Debian stable? 23:35:55 no, ubuntu 9.10 23:36:11 <_6502_> danc: it's not hard... even a real idiot like me was able to build it (with some help from this channel) 23:36:12 debian stable is still using 1.0.18 23:36:13 can I just get a newer asdf? 23:36:19 Don't mention Debian stable 23:36:23 sorry 23:36:28 *Guthur* grumbles about a wasted day 23:36:51 DanC: you can try, but the newest version might require some tweaking (especially for certain packages that meddle too much in its internals) 23:37:01 it happens that I'm running that unmentionable distribution on a box 23:37:07 I don't doubt I could build it... but this tells me how far apart ubunu's support is from what lisp hackers actually use. 23:37:28 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/ <--- if it gives you issues, remember to disable binary output translation 23:37:52 If it still gives you issues, bug Fare about them. 23:38:27 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:40 hmm... I grabbed http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.lisp but now I realize I don't really know what to do with it 23:38:43 nyef: the thing is, the issues apparently were related to other packages, and I did mention the one that actually involved ASDF to Fare 23:39:21 DanC: You are best to go direct to source for lispy stuff 23:39:31 DanC: put (load #P"/full/path/to/asdf.lisp") in your ~/.sbclrc and remove any kind of (request :asdf) 23:39:33 And forget about apt-get 23:39:37 *require 23:39:44 whoa 23:39:47 1.0.38 out today 23:40:07 *DanC* is more inclined to forget about lisp than forget about apt-get 23:40:32 I didn't mean forget apt-get, just in relation to lispy stuff 23:40:40 yeah; I know 23:40:56 I just didn't think lisp hacking was this obscure these days 23:41:08 I mean... even haskell works out-of-the-box on ubuntu 23:41:14 *_6502_* was surprised too 23:41:44 -!- seg_ [~seg@adsl-99-40-252-150.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:41:48 DanC: Haskell had some issues as well, but practically the only package you're going to install with apt-get for haskell is GHC and cabal-install 23:41:52 It works out of the box, its just that the box comes flat packed with lots of screws 23:41:53 hehe 23:41:59 DanC: I think this is an issue more about package maintainers than Lisp itself. 23:42:06 well, of course 23:42:31 also, ASDF2 makes it easier to make a working packaging for lisp code 23:43:07 there's also the fact that Lisp applications tend not to need lisp libraries because they are delivered as images. 23:43:11 *_6502_* read somewhere asdf stuff works 30% of the times 23:43:21 do the sbcl and asdf folks talk much? when the asdf docs say "old" are they talking months or years? I mean... my whole operating system is no older than Oct 2009 23:43:35 you sure that's not 100% of the time on 30% of the machines? 23:43:40 p_l: Distributed as images? As in system images, or are lisp dumps? I've never worked with a commercial Lisp application. 23:44:06 quotemstr: I've seen both 23:44:10 we deliver ours as an sbcl executable core 23:44:23 chicago_andy: Is it free software? 23:44:37 not as in beer 23:44:39 DanC: Just get the latest SBCL from www.sbcl.org and your problems with asdf are likely to lessen, even just grab the binary if you want. 23:44:44 *DanC* tries reading the asdf changelog... gets confused 23:44:48 chicago_andy: Ah. Do you customers even know it's written in Lisp? 23:45:06 the ones who inquire 23:45:30 we had one client who even made a pretty decent front end mod to the app 23:45:44 chicago_andy: How do you deal with the "you write in WHAT?!" reaction from potential hires and customers? 23:46:26 I've got sbcl-1.0.38-x86-linux-binary.tar.bz2 ; can anybody confirm the md5sum or sha1? 23:46:27 we don't hire often and our customers care more that the app works rather than how 23:47:04 chicago_andy: Fair enough. 23:47:12 There. 23:47:18 it's a ring toss game! 23:47:20 My automatic-destructuring-in-setq-and-let feature is complete. 23:47:26 chicago_andy: Really? 23:47:35 ha, no... simpsons reference 23:47:59 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 23:48:00 chicago_andy: Hah, yeah. I don't think there's much overlap between the Lisp and gaming worlds outside Emacs Tetris. :-) 23:48:14 it kind of just came to mind, it's not even pertinent 23:48:40 there's emacs tetris? 23:48:53 chicago_andy: Yep. It's a pretty good implementation too. 23:48:54 M-x tetris 23:48:56 ugh... the ubuntu slime package depends on sbcl ... I wonder if I can install from sbcl.org without removing the ubuntu package 23:49:15 all my entertainment in emacs went out the window when psychoanalyze-pinhead went away 23:49:22 It went away?! 23:49:26 M-x doctor is still there. 23:49:36 yeah, no more random zippy quotes 23:49:44 chicago_andy: Copyright problems? 23:49:48 Also, try M-x animate-birthday-present 23:49:54 Wait, wait... Not much overlap between the lisp and gaming worlds?!? 23:49:55 yeah 23:50:06 nyef: I might be wrong. I often am. 23:50:07 What about Abuse? Naughty Dog? #lispgames? 23:50:16 Oh, I forgot about Abuse. But that's ancient. 23:50:20 I've never heard of Naughty Dog. 23:50:48 hrmp 23:51:02 Naughty Dog are a game development studio that got its start doing games for the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 in a custom lisp cross-compiled from ACL. 23:51:08 sbcl + os x + load-shared-object still doesn't work 23:51:14 DanC: don't use SLIME from Ubuntu 23:51:17 nyef: That's awesome. Are they hiring? :-) 23:51:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:51:27 DanC: install SLIME with clbuild 23:51:30 quotemstr: They got bought out, and now use C++. 23:51:38 nyef: Cowards. 23:51:46 whoa.. ps games in lisp? 23:51:46 quotemstr: more like they were forced 23:51:49 Cowards? What? 23:51:58 I'm joking. :-P I realize it's not usually a choice. 23:52:17 $ ~/src/clbuild/clbuild slime 23:52:17 (emacs:2920): GLib-WARNING **: g_set_prgname() called multiple times 23:52:18 quotemstr: they were bought for IP, except the buyer (Sony) didn't notice that they used Lisp xD 23:52:27 Hrm -- what would be a good use for the otherwise-invalid additional parts of LET binding clauses? 23:52:34 oh, they did crash bandicoot 23:52:50 (let ((foo bar . QUX)) ...) -- any good ideas for a good use for QUX? 23:52:57 DanC: installation is with clbuild install - "clbuild slime" launches Emacs with slime opened :-) 23:53:07 Crash Bandicoot apparently used an earlier version of their lisp system. 23:53:11 oops... right 23:55:40 DanC: slime is one of those packages that are updated way too often for official packages 23:55:47 ok... 23:55:49 SBCL has been installed: 23:55:49 binary /usr/local/bin/sbcl 23:55:57 now... how do I tell clbuild to use that sbcl? 23:57:06 it should be okay if it's the only one in the path (so removing Ubuntu's package should be enough) 23:57:07 just because something is updated a lot doesn't mean all the users need the absolute latest version. old software can work 23:57:29 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B335.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:57:31 ah... right... I removed ubuntu's 23:57:34 DanC: the thing is that SLIME updates are the kind that deserve constant updating on user-side :) 23:58:15 doubtful, in my case... remember: all I'm trying to do is run somebody elses's code 23:58:16 it's not about new features, but making sure Lisp implementations and Slime stay in sync and work properly 23:58:55 All this time I thought we just sucked at doing releases. 23:59:06 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:59:23 pinterface: that's the way it was explained to me :P 23:59:39 but yes, various lisp packages could get better release process