00:00:09 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-246.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:01:37 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:01:43 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:02:19 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:02:26 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:23 billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:36 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 00:09:47 fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-168-250.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:11:50 -!- fihi09`` [~user@pool-71-190-66-26.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:12:27 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:13:05 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:13:10 billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:33 billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:43 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:58 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:21:58 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-168-61.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:24:27 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:24:48 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:25:52 -!- Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has quit [Quit: Bye bye Kansas!] 00:29:39 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 00:30:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: ZzzzZZzzz....] 00:40:01 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:50 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 00:43:30 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:44:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:44:47 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:57 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:50:48 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:50 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:38 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:56:35 nuntius [~nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:47 -!- nixeagle is now known as eau 00:56:57 -!- eau is now known as nixeagle 01:01:33 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:01:35 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 01:01:50 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:02:15 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-83-44.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:11:55 felideon [~felideon@adsl-2-97-200.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:58 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 01:15:33 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:16:01 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:14 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22:13 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.81.72] has quit [] 01:25:58 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 01:27:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:52 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 01:29:26 konr [~user@201.82.134.34] has joined #lisp 01:30:12 anyone know where i can submit a bug for puri? don't see it on the site 01:30:40 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:31:42 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:33:40 ... some part of me is wondering "why are you even -using- puri?" 01:33:59 drakma uses it 01:34:31 unless you know of a better http client lib? 01:34:58 Can't help you there. 01:36:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:37:32 undefn: you could email kevin@b9.com 01:40:14 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:40 thanks, it won't take a url containing a "|", but the new facebook api passes params with them 01:42:23 tried encoding it, but won't work 01:43:05 So, the question is, which side isn't standards-compliant? 01:44:25 i guess so. is it against standards to include a | in a get param? 01:44:52 *nyef* doesn't know, but that's what RFCs are for. 01:46:03 undefn: if you look at ze puri source, you see they are excluded for being "unwise" 01:46:10 there's also a reference in the docstring 01:46:57 so they must be escaped 01:47:53 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:49:07 adeht: very good, ill investigate and try that 01:49:31 undefn: you can try (setf puri:*strict-parse* nil) 01:50:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:51:04 adeht: that did it - thanks! 01:53:14 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:58:09 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 02:01:27 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:07:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 02:08:22 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:09:22 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:12:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.82.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:17:31 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:39 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-vbpmyraqnjwselyi] has joined #lisp 02:17:47 So, it turns out that there's going to be some infrastructure work required in order to have a test suite that doesn't stop processing files early from time to time... If the compiler errors out while compiling a with-test form, which 02:17:59 I've been getting a bit of lately, it still stops processing the file. 02:19:32 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:18 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:57 I'm looking for a sprintf equivelent for common lisp 02:29:10 clhs format 02:29:27 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 02:29:27 (format nil "blah blahblah ~a blah" stuff) 02:29:56 nyef: can you do something about specbot? 02:30:06 Yeah, yeah. Give me a minute. 02:30:12 Does minion need a kick as well? 02:30:15 thanks a lot 02:30:22 seems so 02:30:31 lisppaste: url? 02:30:31 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 02:30:35 lisppaste is alive 02:31:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:32:08 Hrm. 02:33:46 tsuru: I was referring to , but seems relevant. 02:33:52 Grr. 02:34:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:06 Someone's squatting minion's nick. 02:35:19 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:30 minion: You okay now? 02:35:30 what's up? 02:35:38 Good enough. Now for specbot. 02:35:53 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:10 clhs format 02:36:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 02:36:58 pkhuong: thanks 02:37:05 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Absquatulandus sum] 02:38:47 thawkins [~chatzilla@ip72-198-212-203.om.om.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:09 minion: clhs 02:39:09 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 02:39:37 specbot: help clhs 02:39:41 Hrm. 02:39:55 Nevermind. 02:40:07 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:11 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 02:40:41 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 02:41:08 Damn. Looks like I need to burn a register. :-/ 02:41:21 does emacs lisp support constants? 02:41:33 elisp defconstant 02:41:33 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for defconstant. 02:41:45 elisp defconst 02:41:45 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/elisp-manual/html_node/elisp_143.html#IDX431 02:41:58 should be broken link 02:42:24 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 02:42:27 right, puts 404 02:42:45 anyway, the answer is "yes" 02:43:42 thanks 02:44:18 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 02:45:25 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:11 Ugh. Someone is hitting up stupid URLs such as "paste.lisp.org/%20KZH". 02:47:58 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:59 Hrm... Maybe this is a crawler, and something's generating bogus links? 02:48:23 Oh well, not dealing with it now. 02:56:43 -!- konr [~user@201.82.134.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:57:04 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:12 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:57:30 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 02:58:06 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 02:58:36 konr [~user@201.82.134.34] has joined #lisp 03:09:30 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 03:10:16 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:10:55 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:11:48 -!- thawkins [~chatzilla@ip72-198-212-203.om.om.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:17:48 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:19:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:21:55 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:23:23 Ooh. -Repeatable- GC failure. 03:23:31 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 03:23:47 And, on that note, I'd best some sleep be getting. 03:23:51 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:30:06 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:21 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:43:34 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:44:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:48:34 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:51:39 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 03:52:02 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6901.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:56:41 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:55 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6901.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:45 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 04:00:31 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:00:57 *fusss* raises a pint to #lisp 04:01:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:01:46 it's 2PM i have a day of pub-crawling and rock shows lined up :-) 04:01:57 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:04:57 bitweiler [~phax@70.233.100.37] has joined #lisp 04:06:21 nunb [~nundan@59.178.222.218] has joined #lisp 04:07:42 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:09:45 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 04:10:39 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:57 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:13:28 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:14:25 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:16:41 guys, anyone know of python projects have a .asd or package file? somewhere to look for all the exports? 04:17:11 when you see a line like "import foo"; where do i look to see the exports of the foo module in python? 04:17:31 i think you don't have to export 04:17:54 that's what i do, at least 04:18:11 i just wanna the clone a tiny lib, but i am not sure where its header files are 04:18:22 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 04:18:37 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:19:00 what does __init__.py do? 04:19:17 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:19:30 fusss: http://docs.python.org/tutorial/modules.html#packages 04:19:48 but we're in #lisp, say no more 04:20:39 stassats: it's apropos; i am trying to understand enough python to figure out the interface of the library i wanna clone :-) 04:21:32 stassats: never mind, cheres~ 04:21:37 cheers! 04:21:49 brb 04:22:55 -!- marioxcc-AFK [~user@200.92.179.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:58 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-2-97-200.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:24:47 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 04:26:10 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:28:43 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:44 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:36:01 -!- lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:14 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:56 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.222.218] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:40:42 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:41:14 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:45:15 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 04:49:54 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:51:23 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:51:36 -!- bitweiler [~phax@70.233.100.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:59:37 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:23 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 05:03:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:07:07 lnostdal-web [~50cb88a2@gateway/web/freenode/x-xbwxujmlesjdutnv] has joined #lisp 05:10:50 Good morning! 05:11:01 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-15-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:11:41 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 05:12:37 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-14-95.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:15:56 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:17:05 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:18:06 -!- lnostdal-web [~50cb88a2@gateway/web/freenode/x-xbwxujmlesjdutnv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:25:49 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:26:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:37:08 seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:16 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:42:12 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:42:18 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 05:43:33 -!- tantan22 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has quit [Quit: co co] 05:47:19 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:45 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:25 seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:52 -!- undefn [~undefn@cpe-67-246-186-236.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:53:38 ruepel0r [~rue@e179087220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:54:44 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:22 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:59 amaron_ [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:13:01 -!- brookeGarcia [~brookeGar@dsl-156-144.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:20:26 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.129] has joined #lisp 06:24:18 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-111-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:24:56 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:28:59 -!- amaron_ [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:30:07 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:34:30 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:34:39 -!- konr [~user@201.82.134.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:39:35 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:33 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.90.240] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:53:38 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:30 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:01:37 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-59-64-210.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:03:14 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:03:57 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:04:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:04:28 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@e179087220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:05:51 _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-94-36-229-191.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:06:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:11:58 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:15:34 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Absquatulandus sum] 07:16:08 morning, beach 07:18:05 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:22 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:18:59 nunb: How are things? 07:21:32 an hour later i find myself not doing what i was originally doing but tinkering at sbcl internals instead 07:21:55 damn, i can't get anything done this way 07:23:34 beach: ok, rereading some parts of PCL (symbols, packages) 07:24:35 stassats: What is it that you are trying to get done? 07:24:49 i don't remember anymore 07:25:07 <_6502_> hehe 07:25:23 Probably wasn't that important then. 07:25:30 <_6502_> is there a twelve steps program to get out of lisp obsession ? :-) 07:25:42 merl15 [~merl@188-22-175-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:26:26 Accept some admin responsibility. That will kill any kind of initiative and desire to get anything else done. 07:26:39 oh, i remember, it was related to tinkering with sbcl as well, but on another thing 07:26:47 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:27:21 that's a second degree of distraction 07:27:28 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756f40.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:10 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 07:35:03 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 07:35:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:36:30 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 07:41:27 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:42:59 <_6502_> common lisp has been designed as a "union" or as an "intersection" ? 07:43:38 <_6502_> looks huge to be the common part 07:43:51 union or intersection of what? 07:44:06 <_6502_> implementations 07:44:12 _6502_: Neither. 07:44:24 <_6502_> oh... i got fooled by the name then 07:46:00 clhs 1.1.2 07:46:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ab.htm 07:46:08 <_6502_> but in theory size only puts a burden on implementers... if you don't need it, you can leave it off the image; but i would bet that in practice it doesn't work this way 07:46:35 see above 07:49:08 <_6502_> hmmm... like ada 07:49:28 Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has joined #lisp 07:49:55 like ada in what way? 07:50:58 <_6502_> wasn't ada a darpa initiative ? 07:51:38 was lisp a darpa initiative? 07:51:56 <_6502_> In April 1981, after a DARPA-sponsored meeting concerning the splintered Lisp community ... 07:52:27 <_6502_> i don't mean in the design of the language 07:52:52 <_6502_> but in the idea of pushing for a common lisp 07:53:56 they sponsored a meeting 07:54:17 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:54:55 <_6502_> don't get me wrong, i don't see that as a negative or whatever... i just didn't know 07:54:55 it doesn't follow from this that common lisp was a darpa initiative (i'm not saying that it wasn't) 07:56:50 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:02:39 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has joined #lisp 08:03:40 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:21 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:09:35 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:11:05 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:11:45 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:13:19 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 08:14:31 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:19:44 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:06 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:24:58 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 08:27:19 laynor_ [~ale@109.77.51.195] has joined #lisp 08:28:30 -!- laynor [~ale@109.78.31.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:31:38 -!- laynor_ [~ale@109.77.51.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:55 hm, allegro cl can't DECODE-FLOAT on denormalized float 08:35:56 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-194.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:37:00 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-20-43.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:34 is there a magic trick required to use CFFI on OS X? Even being as explicit as (load-foreign-library "/opt/local/lib/libao.4.dylib") results in "Error opening shared object.. dlopen(3) failed." 08:37:36 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:39 is it of the right word-width? 08:38:54 hmm! I hadn't considered that. Quite possibly not. 08:39:09 *hefner* grumbles about the lack of darwin binaries on sbcl.org 08:40:54 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:43:30 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:34 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:52:27 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:54:13 laynor [~ale@109.77.51.195] has joined #lisp 08:54:53 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:19 -!- laynor [~ale@109.77.51.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:59:37 laynor [~ale@109.77.51.195] has joined #lisp 09:10:41 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:04 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:10 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:12:11 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:13:57 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:16 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:17:14 -!- prip [~foo@host128-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:17:22 prip [~foo@host128-197-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:17:30 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 09:18:25 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:25:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:52 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 09:26:05 frontiers [~jackb@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:08 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 09:30:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:32:18 gianzoo [~gianluca@82-170-87-5.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 09:34:52 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 09:35:18 al_x [~aleko@95.104.93.42] has joined #lisp 09:35:22 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:37:08 xiaoyu [~138109659@122.71.38.30] has joined #lisp 09:38:05 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 09:38:29 :D 09:38:51 -!- gianzoo [~gianluca@82-170-87-5.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:39:17 gavino [~g@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:39:28 so why is lisp more powerful than python? 09:39:30 macroes? 09:39:36 -!- xiaoyu [~138109659@122.71.38.30] has left #lisp 09:40:39 -!- pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:41:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:41:57 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 09:43:34 pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:54 pythons take a very long time to digest their food. 09:45:23 -!- gavino [~g@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:31 kloeri [kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 09:47:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:47:52 -!- al_x [~aleko@95.104.93.42] has left #lisp 09:55:56 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:56:46 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 09:56:58 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 09:58:33 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-6-220.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:59:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-246.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:01:27 Does the :key value nil designate #'identity (I imagine so, but can't find where it says so). 10:01:37 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-194.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:01:55 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:58 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:02:56 clhs 17.2.2 10:02:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_bb.htm 10:03:31 it doesn't say about IDENTITY specifically 10:08:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08:44 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:09:14 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:15:28 Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:16:37 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:06 stassats: Thanks *again*! I read that page but somehow didn't see the part about the key. I wonder why they didn't just make the default value #'identity rather than nil. 10:18:34 well, calling identity is not free 10:19:06 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:09 stassats: No, but just as the function must test for (null key), it could test for (eq key #'identity). 10:19:54 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:20:20 beach: (defun my-remove-wrapper (x y &rest r &key start end) (apply #'remove x y r) 10:20:46 tcr: What does that show? 10:21:03 the reason for the choice of default value 10:21:29 i wouldn't see a difference in that case 10:21:30 tcr: I don't get it. Sorry! 10:22:32 rest doesn't include unspecified &key parameters, so it wouldn't matter 10:22:36 -!- laynor [~ale@109.77.51.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:23 laynor [~ale@93.107.138.174] has joined #lisp 10:24:28 <_6502_> wouldn't that also pass r as a list to remove ? 10:24:44 billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:45 no, see apply 10:24:57 _6502_: No, apply makes sure each element is passed separately. 10:25:23 <_6502_> yeah... i mean the last element will be the list of all extra parameters, correct ? 10:25:29 -!- jao [~jao@6.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 10:25:42 that's what it's used for 10:26:21 <_6502_> i thought the original idea was something like (apply #'remove x y . r) ... if such a syntax exists 10:26:42 i thought you understood what beach said 10:27:02 (and . is a reader syntax) 10:27:06 clhs apply 10:27:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 10:27:31 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:28:07 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:28:17 Joreji [~thomas@79-087.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:28:38 <_6502_> doh 10:29:28 billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:33:17 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:34:02 is declaring &rest dynamic-extent and passing it through apply actually safe? 10:35:40 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:54 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:01 well, it's safe enough for &key parameters 10:36:09 *_6502_* just discovered apply with more than two parameters 10:39:04 _6502_: must've been difficult, with so few registers. 10:41:23 <_6502_> hefner: "lda ($28),y" loads a byte from the address specified by the content of locations $28/$29 plus a displacement using the Y register, so indeed 6502 has 128 registers that can be used for indirection 10:42:52 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:15 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:46:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-087.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:46:47 "A note from lu?s oliveira" 10:47:02 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:10 stassats: Oh yes that's true. Sorry, it's for the case when you add an additional &key parameter in your wrapper, and hence have to specify :start start, :end end 10:48:47 Xach: I don't know if it's lispjobs' fault, planet.lisp's fault or mine, but that's what I see 10:49:15 Krystof: wfm 10:49:49 tcr: might use :allow-other-keys t 10:49:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:50:16 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:50:59 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:51:16 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: hefner] 10:51:36 the server at planet lisp doesn't specify charset encoding 10:51:42 stassats: doesn't work with &optionals 10:52:07 optionals aren't included in rest 10:52:31 or are they? 10:52:32 I think we're talking past each other 10:52:51 that's possible 10:52:53 Joreji [~thomas@79-087.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:53:28 don't make me write my next advodiary entry in cyrillic just to find out whether you see that too 10:54:03 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:55:26 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 10:56:01 Could anyone of SBCL developers apply time_t and tzset patches for NetBSD? 10:56:04 my default encoding is cyrillic (one of), and not latin-1, so i didn't get ì as well 10:56:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:56:40 ASau: write to sbcl-devel 10:56:53 They are there already. 10:57:01 or file a ticket on LP 10:57:16 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 10:57:21 What is "LP"? 10:57:28 launchpad 10:57:51 Weren't the patches just bandaid? 10:58:01 No, they work. 10:58:21 bandaid works too 10:58:38 At least they allow further work. 10:58:51 Without them SBCL is unusable at all. 11:01:26 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:01:40 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 11:03:22 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:03:53 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 11:10:35 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:15:34 Guthur [~Michael@213.122.221.177] has joined #lisp 11:17:30 ASau: can you tell me whether the patches break sbcl on older versions of netbsd? 11:17:52 Hm. 11:17:57 I'll check this. 11:18:11 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:19:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:20:15 thanks 11:20:45 to be clear: I don't expect binaries built on the newer one to work on the older, nor the other way round (this is an ABI change, isn't it?) 11:20:54 but it would be good if the sources worked on both 11:23:27 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 11:24:38 It will take some time to get netbsd-4 installation, netbsd 5.1 is easier. 11:25:00 Other versions are not strictly supported. 11:26:52 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:27:04 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:33:37 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 11:34:31 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:35 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:35:47 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:35:54 hello 11:35:58 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 11:36:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:39:02 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:29 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:42:06 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:47:36 skeledrew [~skeledrew@72.27.205.90] has joined #lisp 11:50:28 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@72.27.205.90] has left #lisp 11:56:26 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:59:27 somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:03:40 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 12:07:16 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:08:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:08:11 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 12:13:31 sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:49 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:59 G'morning all. 12:19:03 hey, nyef. 12:20:57 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:17 I am reliably getting a GC fault about no transport function when running arith.pure.lisp as part of the full test suite, but it doesn't happen when I run just arith.impure.lisp. 12:22:17 PPC, I assume? 12:22:20 Yes. 12:24:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:26:37 hi nyef 12:27:19 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 12:29:07 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:30:30 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 12:33:13 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:16 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-160-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:35:41 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:27 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-175-53.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:39:48 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:49 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 12:42:06 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:45:22 Good afternoon! 12:45:30 Nice nap that was. 12:45:32 Hello beach. 12:45:47 Hey nyef. What's up? 12:46:25 Trying to figure out where a GC problem on PPC might be. 12:47:59 arquebus [~na@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 12:48:42 And I've found an invariant that isn't specifically checked-for, which isn't likely to be the problem but still should be fixed. 12:50:37 nyef: how long does it take to scan the whole heap looking for sane widetags? 12:52:01 Don't know. 12:52:18 Presumably less than a full GC, though, right? 12:53:09 should be... 12:55:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:57:33 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 12:58:19 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 12:59:26 Okay, added an aversion to non-nl3 flag-tn in pseudo-atomic, if that breaks the build then we've got a place to start. 13:02:00 -!- arquebus [~na@201.139.156.133.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:06:10 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:52 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:01 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:11:29 billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:01 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19:51 Score! Found a p-a entry with the wrong flag-tn. 13:20:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:01 ... Or maybe I screwed up my test. 13:22:02 Hrm. 13:23:02 *nyef* tries again. 13:23:48 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:15 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:32:41 hypnosis [~hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has joined #lisp 13:33:03 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 13:36:24 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:14 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-6-220.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:37:20 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:26 -!- sellout [~greg@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:48:49 Hrm... No hit on that, looks like the flag-tn is reliably set... But the GC still bombs in the same way. 13:53:12 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:56:12 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:56:14 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:21 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:00:47 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:00:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:01:37 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:01:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 14:02:39 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:07:25 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:08:30 nurv [nurv@62.32.144.128] has joined #lisp 14:09:09 Hi. 14:09:29 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:31 nipra [~nipra@115.118.109.250] has joined #lisp 14:17:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:22 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:19:19 sacamano_m82 [~user@122.174.80.173] has joined #lisp 14:21:29 -!- coyo|pingout [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ACTION closes window in a panic] 14:21:31 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-109-236.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:21:58 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:08 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 14:23:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:25:06 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 14:28:37 -!- sacamano_m82 [~user@122.174.80.173] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:28:46 -!- coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ACTION closes window in a panic] 14:29:16 -!- illuminati1113 [~user@pool-74-96-222-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:29:33 sacamano_m82 [~user@122.174.80.173] has joined #lisp 14:30:25 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:05 -!- hypnosis [~hypnosis@unaffiliated/hypnosis] has left #lisp 14:35:15 myu2 [~myu2@KD124211006239.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:35:52 For larger projects, does anyone know any helpful macros or something where one could define the asd file itself including all the files that in that package and run a script that creates the necessary directory, stubs, and files? 14:36:22 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-53-82-65-6-146.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:23 TDT: I am not sure whether you mean a large existing project that needs a system definition, or if you are going to start a large project, and you just want to type its name and have the directories and the rest created for you. 14:43:07 beach: More thinking if I could define the asd of a fresh project to have everything else stubbed out 14:43:14 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:43:48 TDT: I see. 14:44:27 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-160-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:44:28 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:51 peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:44:54 For example, say in my asd file I have (components ((:file "lib/foo/bar") (:file "lib/foo/car") ...)), that running the script would look at the asd, the files defined and would run mkdir lib/foo, and touch both bar and car or even better to add the (in-package), but that's assuming defpackage is in the asd which I've seen most people push it to its own package.lisp file 14:46:09 Yeah, it is typically in a separate file. 14:46:30 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:48:44 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 14:49:26 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:49:31 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 -!- sacamano_m82 [~user@122.174.80.173] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:51:10 sacamano_m82 [~user@122.174.80.173] has joined #lisp 14:51:26 -!- sacamano_m82 [~user@122.174.80.173] has left #lisp 14:54:02 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54:58 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:55:08 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 14:57:49 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 15:00:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-087.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:00:47 TDT: Does that actually reflect your experience? I always start with a single file, then maybe go to foo.lisp, utils.lisp, package.lisp, foo.asd, and then incrementally add files as need arises 15:03:49 tcr: Usually I stick with a single file then refactor in the end - I have a project that I'm workign on and will need the structure anyways, but yeah...overall I've been sticking to 1 file the refactoring as necssary 15:05:04 same here :) 15:05:08 one big file 15:05:11 at the start. 15:05:46 i have a harder time thinking about structure, when i don't have stuff. 15:06:34 yeah, maybe that's how I should have started here...not sure why I thought about structure right off the bat. Trying to write up a simple naive bayes classifier in lisp right now 15:08:47 Well sure you can start out with a few files from the beginning. My point was that I question to ROI when writing a tool like you outlined 15:08:55 the ROI 15:10:33 That's a fair question, and for this particular project it may have helped, but then again doing it manually was shorter than writing something. 15:12:58 -!- Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has quit [Quit: Bye bye Kansas!] 15:18:15 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD124211006239.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:22:25 Joreji [~thomas@79-087.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:22:57 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:23:27 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:37 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the 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has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:28:01 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@125.109.252.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:29:00 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-59-64-210.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:04 xinming [~hyy@125.109.245.147] has joined #lisp 16:31:42 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:31:44 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:32:06 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:33:13 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: reboot] 16:37:25 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:26 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:38:54 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:04 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:39:42 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:39:46 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:39:47 hi 16:40:17 hi ehu 16:42:56 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-67-246-186-236.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:42:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:43:09 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 16:45:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:45:50 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:46:06 seems like the clhs is starting to show its age: lots of discussion lately on how CL can -conformingly- be extended to take its place in the world where no computing problem is solved using a single language anymore [ie. Unicode charactes, foreign objects, ...] 16:47:02 nobody said it's perfect 16:47:21 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 16:47:50 right. 16:48:02 ehu: Though I find it totally silly when people comlplain that Lisp (i.e. the standard) lacks this or that whereas they are perfectly willing to use languages without any standard at all. 16:48:13 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:32 beach: lol. 16:48:45 <_6502_> as a lisp noob i must say that i find clhs perfectly fine... there are serious problems but they're not in clhs 16:48:58 fiveop [~fiveop@g229147165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:02 beach: from an implementors perspective, it's a bit impractical 16:49:04 It's a very good document. 16:49:14 ehu: In what way? 16:49:31 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:49:38 beach: I'd like to -natively- support unicode without the need of libraries to get rewritten to understand about it. 16:49:51 ehu: really? I think from an implementor's perspective it's awesome 16:49:53 ehu: What is stopping you? 16:50:11 beach: the fact that it's supposed to be non-compliant 16:50:24 ehu: Point me to the place where it says that! 16:50:36 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 16:50:42 This is that whole unicode-case thing again, isn't it? 16:50:48 it's probably the tired old thing about string-upcase not doing the "Right Thing" 16:51:14 Krystof: that, but it could also be about EQL / EQUAL on foreign objects 16:51:25 (which is not about Unicode in that case) 16:51:40 ehu: Show me a language standard that does that. 16:52:22 beach: equality of foreign objects? 16:52:28 Yeah. 16:52:40 ... What foreign objects would you expect to be EQL on anything other than pointer identity anyway? 16:52:42 not just that: show me implementaiton documentation that allows programmers to write fully future-proof code against changes in the entire ecosystem 16:52:52 ok; i'll need to find ut about that 16:53:09 hi. 16:53:13 if a library uses a standardized operator, it gets standardized behaviour. Why is this a bad thing, again? 16:53:14 nyef: exactly. 16:53:24 anyone want to try my lisp game? it's in playable alpha for win/mac/linux. http://dto.github.com/notebook/cons.html 16:53:24 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:27 nyef: I want foreign objects to be pointer-identical 16:53:40 nyef: in abcl, they're boxed, so they're not EQ 16:53:46 ehu: But it has to be a standard, not an implementation. Because if you point us to an implementation, you might as well use the CLHS minus whatever things are stopping you from implementing what you want. You would still have a language where most of it is standardized by a great document, whereas in the other case you have nothing. 16:53:49 however, they can't be eql 16:53:52 Oh, for the love of... 16:54:13 Look, I have EQ-comparable GUID objects. It's -not hard-. 16:54:34 I'm going to dinner. This discussion is silly! 16:54:44 Yes, it means having a weak hash table from pointers to boxes. 16:54:55 It's still not hard. 16:55:41 right. We have similar existence proofs of all sorts of fun unstandardized things, without breaking conforming code. 16:55:42 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:06 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 16:56:47 and the CL standard, by virtue of being extremely clear as standards documents go, is a fantastic resource for an implementor, because it makes clear what the expectations of the wider users are 16:57:25 that's my take, anyway. 16:58:51 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: reboot once again] 17:00:06 -!- csf_ [~csf@24-107-120-7.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #lisp 17:01:03 blandest [~blandest@79.112.109.113] has joined #lisp 17:03:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:28 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:05:02 ruepel0r [~rue@91-66-85-102-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:13 ehu: how severe would be the performance impact on typical applications if ABCL implemented EQ the way it currently implements EQL? Do you have numbers for that? 17:05:38 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:06:09 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:07:16 <_6502_> is abcl compiled ? 17:08:41 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:07 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:31 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:13:24 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-15-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:13:39 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:24 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:15:31 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:16:10 The Notes section in the CLHS dictionary entry says: "Thus eql tells whether two objects are conceptually the same, whereas eq tells whether two objects are implementationally identical. It is for this reason that eql, not eq, is the default comparison predicate for operators that take sequences as arguments. " -- sure it says to use EQ on anything else, but from the notes section it's pretty clear that EQL is supposed to smooth over any implementation deta 17:16:19 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:43 Bah. "Conceptually the same" is -far- too vague to go by. 17:16:50 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:16:52 Otherwise we wouldn't have STRING-EQUAL. 17:17:13 Since any two STRING-EQUAL strings are "conceptually the same" at some level, and thus should be EQL. 17:17:30 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:01 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:18:27 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:20:54 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:21:00 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:21:28 Obviously it has to be read in context 17:21:31 and SBCL does fine without making SAPs of equal value EQL 17:21:46 *nyef* winces. 17:22:00 SBCL has a nasty tendency to unbox and rebox SAPs unnecessarily. 17:22:10 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:23 lichtblau: What actually came to discussion on the abcl mailing list are Java enums 17:22:36 having those not be EQL is just odd at best 17:22:37 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:24:03 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:24:37 Java has enums? ;-) 17:24:41 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 17:24:41 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:44 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:01 yeah since some recent version, 1.5, 1.6? 17:25:05 -!- nurv is now known as nurv|afk 17:25:30 konr [~user@201.82.134.34] has joined #lisp 17:26:19 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:25 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:27:41 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:33:17 so enum values are -- from the perspective of the Java VM -- just instances of Java classes? In that case, I'd argue that it is appropriate for ABCL's "FFI" to treat them just like any other Java instance. 17:33:29 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:33:57 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.131.155] has joined #lisp 17:34:42 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:36:21 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:36:21 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:53 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:37:32 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:04 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:38:24 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:38:43 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:15 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:39:54 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:25 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:41:05 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:36 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:54 netytan [~netytan@85.211.63.239] has joined #lisp 17:43:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:44:41 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:45:36 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:46:55 codeassembly [~givan@188.25.59.127] has joined #lisp 17:47:21 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:29 [01]Lince [~dani@bl5-155-4.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:49:29 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 17:49:30 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 17:50:51 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:50:54 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:14 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:55:31 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:55:54 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632868.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 17:56:32 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56:39 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:57:22 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:09 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 17:58:25 JJohnson516 [~m@199.76.175.41] has joined #lisp 17:58:41 Nstars [~nstars@118.103.188.125] has joined #lisp 17:58:53 Hi 17:59:01 hello Nstars 17:59:11 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 H r u? 17:59:30 Nstars: You must be new here. 17:59:41 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f665666-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:00:21 -!- Nstars [~nstars@118.103.188.125] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:00:26 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.131.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:00:40 That didn't last very long. 18:01:04 I have a beginner question: I have a macro "update-helper" which takes a list as a parameter. If I call it this way: (update-helper (1 2)) it works fine. But if I do this instead: (defparameter testlist '(1 2)) then: (update-helper testlist) it doesn't work. How should I call a macro with an argument that is a variable containing a list? 18:01:46 JJohnson516: It looks like your macro is badly written. 18:01:52 Most likely. 18:02:02 Should it work both ways? 18:02:04 JJohnson516: Why do you want it be a macro? 18:02:05 minion: Tell JJohnson516 about lisppaste 18:02:05 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:02:19 beach: Thanks. 18:02:23 JJohnson516: If all its arguments are supposed to be evaluated, just use a function 18:02:35 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:16 tcr: The macro returns a function which is different depending on the contents of the list passed to the macro. 18:03:33 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 18:04:05 Sure you can do that with functions, too 18:05:42 lichtblau: it's a machine instruction versus a virtual call (EQL as EQ) 18:06:00 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-99-162-100-58.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:45 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632868.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:06:58 ehu: the JIT might be very smart wrt that virtual 18:06:59 tcr: I really am just beginning. Right now I'm working through Practical Common Lisp, and trying to modify an example. The example takes certain fields and values in a list (i.e., (:rating 1 :title "Songs about Turtles)) and returns a function that checks for only those values (out of the possible artist, title, rating, and ripped status). 18:07:02 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 -!- nurv|afk is now known as nurv 18:07:36 tcr: The example is given as a macro. Could a function do the same thing? 18:07:39 pkhuong, lichtblau: but real impact numbers? I have no idea. 18:07:51 would be an interesting experiment, I guess. 18:08:47 JJohnson516: you use macros only when functions won't do the trick, usually because you need to inspect the structure of the (unevaluated) arguments that you pass to it. In your case, you are sometimes passing a list and sometimes a symbol, so you have no benefit with a macro. 18:09:14 (I'm simplifying a bit) 18:09:37 JJohnson516: But it's hard to say anything general without seeing your code. 18:10:01 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:10:16 Lina [~lina87lea@94.182.3.177] has joined #lisp 18:10:39 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.131.155] has joined #lisp 18:11:27 -!- Lina [~lina87lea@94.182.3.177] has left #lisp 18:13:19 Lina [~lina87lea@94.182.3.177] has joined #lisp 18:13:23 -!- Lina [~lina87lea@94.182.3.177] has left #lisp 18:13:28 JJohnson516 pasted "Example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98322 18:13:46 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:13:55 beach: In that example, what would "arg" be set to? 18:14:29 JJohnson516: The symbol testlist. 18:14:35 Ah. 18:14:59 That's the point with a macro. Its areguments are not evaluated. 18:15:12 If you want them to be, you should use a function instead. 18:15:13 beach: If I ever need to pass a list that's contained in a variable, I'll probably be passing to a function, then, yes? 18:15:28 I understand now, I think. 18:15:29 Yes. 18:16:00 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:16:24 My guess is that the author of the book used a macro when a function would have worked in order to introduce macros, and I didn't realize that. Thanks very much for your help, beach and tcr. 18:16:35 No problem. 18:16:41 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:16:46 -!- JJohnson516 [~m@199.76.175.41] has quit [] 18:18:25 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082CD0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:15 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:21:02 felideon [~felideon@adsl-2-97-200.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:24 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:21:34 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.131.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:00 minion: memo for stassats: Filtering out all worker threads in list-threads is not good if it's a worker thread that's gone crazy. 18:22:00 Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 18:22:04 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082E926.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:27:02 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:47 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:31:17 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:47 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 So, I now have a good idea as to why the gencgc heap verification stuff doesn't work worth a damn: dynamic-extent allocation. 18:33:31 Doesn't quite explain the sb-posix failure I just saw, but explains most of the other symptoms. 18:35:38 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:38:49 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:40:17 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1278.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:43:41 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:44:02 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:59 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:45:21 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:46:00 dabr [~dabr@39-109.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:46:48 benny [~benny@i577A25F3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:45 Anchakor [ojirio@217.197.150.222] has joined #lisp 18:49:51 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-201-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:59 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:08 hi, how can I find out if a variable is a list? 18:50:11 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:50:14 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:50:40 clhs: listp 18:50:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 18:51:59 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:52:13 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6901.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:23 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:52:46 iPac [~bubble@p54AA5C7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:13 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:20 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA5C7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:48 Guthur: thanks! 18:55:44 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:55:59 Alternately, "variables aren't lists, but values may be." 18:59:41 JJohnson516: Hi, I'm just a beginner as well and coincidentally have worked through that example from PCL book today (Chap 3). I believe macros are introduced there to the point. It's actually an optimization of the previous solution with functions only. 19:01:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:01:57 Guthur: or could I use atom? 19:02:01 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:02:04 (function) 19:02:23 (atom 1) => T 19:02:48 (atom '()) => T 19:03:08 So probably not. 19:03:54 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:08 Depends if you want and empty list to be considered a list. 19:04:30 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-6-220.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:05:14 JJohnson516 [~m@199.76.158.19] has joined #lisp 19:06:11 clhs consp 19:06:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_consp.htm 19:07:39 Anchakor: you're probably best off not using ATOM 19:07:56 it's a rather archaic predicate 19:08:35 ok, thanks, listp is good 19:08:55 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:00 Wait... rahul is back just two days after madhu came back from vacation 19:09:29 where was I gone? 19:09:44 oh I probably haven't said anything on here for weeks 19:09:52 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 19:10:14 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 I think I wrote a format string of doom 19:10:49 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 19:12:09 zoldar [~zoldar@ods82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:12:21 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:22 Hi there! Is there a way to "and" a list? (Something like (and '(t nil t)) instead of (and t nil t)?) 19:12:28 does it wield a vorpal sword? 19:12:35 Luckily it's not me who's going to have to maintain it :-) 19:12:50 JJohnson516: EVERY? 19:13:08 rahul: That sounds like something that would do it. 19:13:12 rahul: Thanks 19:13:33 I wonder if contracts for Lispers should have clauses regarding advanced uses of format strings 19:13:33 clhs every 19:13:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 19:14:15 maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:14:41 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:15:09 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:15:23 hello, I am trying to get hunchentoot installed on my box (ubuntu 9.10). I've already made a local install of sbcl binaries from sbcl.org. First I fave tried to use asdf but it fails while installing one of dependencies (lift). Now I try to use clbuild but it fails on the same dependency because of non-existent dracs repository. Any ideas? Do I have to resort to tarballs ? 19:16:24 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:17:18 zoldar: try lispy http://common-lisp.net/project/lispy/ 19:17:54 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:18:14 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:18 <_6502_> this is the problem with lisp in my opinion, not clhs... 19:19:27 if I get an error that there are too few arguments given to a function but everything seems fine, and when I add one it says too many arguments, what is the problem? 19:20:10 Anchakor: keyword arguments? 19:20:52 oh Im stupid, I got it 19:21:20 too bad the error output doesn't include the line where something is wrong 19:21:28 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:34 Anchakor: when doesn't it? 19:21:51 in SLIME, the erroneous form is actually highlighted 19:21:57 Anchakor: You are using SLIME? 19:22:05 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:22:37 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:22:50 _6502_: Out of curiosity, which problem were you referring to? 19:22:51 Guthur: no, just regular clisp 19:23:20 Anchakor: Well, SLIME is quite good at error highlighting, as ruhul pointed out 19:23:26 GNU clisp? Eek. 19:23:38 clisp and SLIME don't mix well though 19:24:02 oh that is emacs plugin or so? I don't use emacs 19:24:22 hehe, ah well, your doubly snookered then 19:24:29 you're 19:24:48 <_6502_> that's another problem with lisp 19:24:49 What ever works for you though 19:25:19 _6502_: Which problem now 19:25:32 Thats two 19:25:47 That's* 19:25:49 <_6502_> guthur: 1) the problem with external libraries... they're just a mess 19:26:34 <_6502_> guthur: no one says everything should be standard, but if installing a library has an howto of seven pages it means there is a problem 19:27:08 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:27 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:27:54 -!- felideon is now known as felideon_away 19:27:56 <_6502_> guthur: the other problem is emacs... and lisper just laughing at who doesn't use it 19:28:02 Its not just a CL problem, there is DLL hell on windows, and I remember times trying to get paths setup correctly for Visual Studio C++ dev 19:28:03 <_6502_> lispers 19:28:34 _6502_: Who laughs at people not using emacs? 19:28:45 *schme* laughs at Patzy 19:28:48 -!- JJohnson516 [~m@199.76.158.19] has quit [] 19:28:52 <_6502_> hehe, ah well, your doubly snookered then 19:28:53 _6502_: I said whatever works. 19:28:59 obviously we should abandon slime and emacs so as to make a fair, level playing field for everyone else who can't be bothered to learn them or write their own replacements 19:29:31 _6502_: I don't think anyone laughs at the non-SLIMErs. We just highly recommend it over... well vim and what heck. 19:29:38 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:50 ^ (1+) 19:29:59 *schme* laughs at tic too. 19:30:31 _6502_: Its really SLIME where the big win is, and unfortunately it is Emacs only. 19:30:40 :-( 19:30:50 I didn't mean my comment too seriously 19:30:51 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 19:30:57 oh, you don't laugh at us. yet you laugh at /me/! 19:31:17 tic: I laughed at Patzy too. You're the only two non SLIMErs I know of :) 19:31:20 *tic* needs to find the time to work on Limp, meh. 19:31:20 _6502_: What problem with external libraries? 19:31:26 schme, hehe. 19:31:40 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:31:42 tcr: the fact that compiling software is painful 19:31:48 tic: Now now, I promise I still use only vim :) 19:31:50 apparently that's lisp-specific 19:32:04 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:32:18 no, autoconf hell doesn't exist in C. definitely not 19:32:30 and CPAN mangling your entire system never happens 19:32:51 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:32:54 iPac [~bubble@p54AA5C7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:02 herbieB, yay :-) 19:33:29 <_6502_> normally when you follow instructions about libraries you just get a huge pile of fast scrolling nonsense... and then a non-working system... for example because of a 404 19:33:41 tic: Someday I'll release my changes in nekthuth. This year I promise! 19:34:01 _6502_: Though a 404 would be problematic for any library handling system. 19:34:05 _6502_: Try clbuild 19:34:16 <_6502_> hmm... try lispy 19:34:17 _6502_: I frequently get something like it even with pacman (arch linux package handler ya). 19:34:20 <_6502_> try clbuild 19:34:29 <_6502_> there's no try... either do or do not 19:34:35 I suggest do not. 19:34:45 <_6502_> yeah... that's the solution 19:34:50 _6502_: you clearly have never used perl or C or java 19:34:53 herbieB, so you've done some work on it? nice. 19:34:53 try spending ten minutes checking out code yourself, then. 19:34:54 do, even. 19:35:01 _6502_: Heck I even got 404s when I was using debian and some mirror went down. 19:35:07 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:35:14 tic: Well, i wrote it to start with :P 19:35:16 <_6502_> not java... i'm a certified java 1.1 programmer but i actually hate the language 19:35:20 herbieB: another non slimer!? 19:35:23 *schme* laughs at herbieB 19:35:24 java 1.1? 19:35:25 hahahaha 19:35:34 _6502_: classpath hell is horrible 19:35:37 <_6502_> yeah... it was long time ago :-) 19:35:42 java 1.1....mmmmm, vectors 19:35:48 setting up a project involves days of bullshit 19:35:48 <_6502_> but still i think java is a disease more than a cure 19:36:05 Java is a fine language for certain circumstances. 19:36:13 Hell, I'd even say it's the ebst language in certain circumstances. 19:36:23 -!- dabr [~dabr@39-109.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:36:35 yeah, if you're trying to cause pain 19:36:42 <_6502_> now my preferred language is python, with C++ when speed is not enough 19:36:51 <_6502_> lisp would be just great 19:37:11 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-238.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: hefner] 19:37:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:15 Did you just dis java and promote C++? :P 19:37:52 <_6502_> yeah... i like C++ more; there are many ugly parts, of course... but i think it can be a great tool 19:37:58 I've been told python has its good share of library madness. 19:38:13 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:38:35 schme: The amount of OMG WE NEED TO FIX PACKAGING at every pycon is so awesome 19:38:54 schme: Ya with a couple of naming schemes as well 19:39:27 Though I think 3.0 is suppose to bring it all up to date with the current python naming standard 19:39:30 <_6502_> there is some problem in python too... of course, but i'd say they're not comparable to the problems of lisp (or may be i've been VERY unlucky) 19:39:35 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:55 _6502_: Personally I can't remember having many problems installing lisp packages. Maybe I've been lucky. 19:40:03 <_6502_> for production we're not yet at 3.0... i can't comment about it 19:40:26 Oh there was that on time some library was on some server that had gone away for the moment. 19:40:49 tiff reading I think it was related to. 19:40:50 or maybe png. 19:40:51 hmmm. 19:41:03 schme: Servers seem to running away from you, first arch, debian, and now lisp ones 19:41:13 ya. 19:41:23 <_6502_> well... a central repository could help 19:41:25 licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:41:35 _6502_: I agree with the central repo. 19:42:01 <_6502_> and a standard way to install that doesn't require you to manually edit any text file 19:42:05 And which implementation would be the blessed standard 19:42:14 Is there a reason no one has set up a standardized central trusted server? 19:42:21 Or is it just a matter of laziness/time/money? 19:42:25 _6502_: clbuild install ? or asdf-install ? :) 19:42:37 what is the central repo for all C++ software? 19:42:46 herbieB: probably mostly an organisational thing, yeah 19:42:49 or all java software or all python software or all perl software? 19:42:53 <_6502_> with adsf install i f*ked up clisp on my small acer aspire one 19:43:05 _6502_: then you are really dumb. 19:43:10 cliki sort of acts as a highly non-trusted central directory :) 19:43:20 <_6502_> now when i start clisp i get a screenful of nonsense and an error message and i've to type ctrl-d to get to a repl 19:43:21 asdf-install should not be able to screw up your lisp implementation 19:43:25 rahul: Python does have a sort of large standard lib 19:43:32 _6502_: That sounds .. very odd. 19:43:33 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:37 Guthur: that's not the point 19:43:38 rahul: Actually, that's a benefit of CL that I think could make it a better langauge for newcomers. In the same way as starting up in php is very easy. 19:43:39 They're very much the fashion these days, though; there's now one for emacs! 19:43:39 _6502_: But also. Why you using clisp ? :) 19:43:59 rahul: But CL could do it because the number of libraries is manageable, compared to C++ 19:44:08 *rsynnott* suspects that people are so inclined to start with clisp mostly because of the name... 19:44:11 herbieB: until it's not 19:44:16 <_6502_> schme: my preferred lisp is sbcl... but i keep checking things with clisp, sbcl, ccl 19:44:21 haskells hackage is quite nice. 19:44:22 rsynnott: it's pretty easy to install, too 19:44:24 _6502_: Why? 19:44:36 and the pharo/squeak monticello thingie is nice too. 19:44:40 rahul: ah, generally these days sbcl and/or ccl are, too 19:44:41 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:44:46 sure nicer than cliki and asdf-install anyway :) 19:44:46 -!- nurv is now known as nurv|afk 19:44:55 herbieB: how are you going to force people to always put their code in one single location? 19:44:59 (of course, sbcl still goes on about death-kittens on win32) 19:45:18 <_6502_> why asking why ? it was the same when i decided to learn C++... i used vc++, g++, bc 19:45:39 haha 19:45:40 <_6502_> it's important to check different implementations... 19:45:43 rahul: I think with github and things like it.. it will be hard to have everyone all of a sudden put their stuff on some lisp-repo that gets set up. 19:45:47 christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:51 C++ still isn't portable across impls 19:46:02 My criteria for removing that death-kitten message remains the same: A certain minimum level of not-sucking, starting with line-endings in external formats and working SIGINT-by-any-other-name. 19:46:15 Umm... And maybe handle-streams. 19:46:17 eugu [~eugene@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 19:46:23 <_6502_> it was some time ago... but of course it's not 100% portable, because it's easy to step into an "extension" 19:46:25 _6502_: It isn't important to check implementations at all. Just write your software. If people need it they will gladly go with sbcl, or ccl, or whatever you chose. 19:46:29 nyef: I'm not objecting to the death-kitten. It's probably appropriate the way things are 19:46:30 Oh, right, and heap-relocation. 19:46:35 rahul: I wasn't asking from a force point of view. I was asking more from the point of view of "let's say N developers wanted to put their code in a trusted way at a trusted location, can they do that?" 19:46:38 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229147165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 19:46:45 herbieB: of course 19:46:46 rahul: And if not, why not? 19:46:56 herbieB: that has nothing to do with lisp or anything else 19:47:00 it has to do with social networks 19:47:11 and the definition of "trust" 19:47:17 nyef: did that thing with the fragmented memory on win32 ever get sorted out? 19:47:33 rahul: Oh, of course. But someone has to pony up the server/bandwidth/supporting library. 19:47:34 herbieB: has this been done successfully elsewhere? 19:47:39 all N developers will trust the location they put the code... well, maybe 19:47:44 rsynnott: Gentoo? Redhat? Ubuntu? 19:47:45 _6502_: Much the same with .. take elisp for example. Most elispers don't give a rats arse about checking if stuff works on other implementations. So why do it with Common Lisp? 19:47:50 herbieB: there are alrealy multiple such places 19:48:05 rsynnott: it has been done successfully here 19:48:08 rahul: Like what? 19:48:10 many times over :) 19:48:12 <_6502_> i'm learning lisp... that's why i use different implementation 19:48:27 herbieB: common-lisp.net, cclan (RIP) 19:48:41 <_6502_> of course for production we use specific implementations (one per platform) 19:48:51 it's a lot of work to make things work in every semi-major implementation, and many people simply do not care 19:48:58 _6502_: Ok.. here's my thinking. If you're learning CL per the spec, then shit will just work on any implementation anyway. 19:48:58 (and I can't really blame them) 19:49:38 *nyef* cares about -one- implementation: SBCL. And rarely on anything other than x86oid linux. 19:49:59 schme, are there other implementations of elisp? 19:50:06 _6502_: for me it actually helps to think about the different implementations as different languages. Then I don't have to feel bad about it. 19:50:07 yep, that's often the way; sbcl and possibly ccl are the ones that most people are likely to care about 19:50:13 tic: XEmacs, sort of, I suppose 19:50:19 tic: Sure man. Pretty much none of my elisp runs on the gnu emacs, for example. 19:50:25 schme, oh? 19:50:31 tic: ya I'm an sxemacs user. 19:51:09 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:51:10 tic: which is mostly compatible with xemacs elisp.. just if you start doing threads and ffi, then maybe not :) 19:51:16 <_6502_> hmmm... different languages 19:51:23 wow. sxemacs is weird. 19:51:34 tic: indeed (: 19:52:55 _6502_: I do the same with every language I toy around with that has several implementations.. be it CL, prolog, smalltalk.. I couldn't give a rats arse if it works on sicstus prolog or gnu smalltalk :) 19:53:06 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 <_6502_> actually may be it's me... I indeed hate "build systems" like cmake or ant or you-name-it; one should care only about the actual program, not about how to be able to release it 19:53:27 "SXEmacs does not support the Win32 platform and it never will. Yes, we consider this a feature." - hehe 19:53:28 i have a very small head, how do i wrap my head around common lisp, it seems so huge. 19:53:52 _6502_, now put on your admin hat 19:54:30 "In SXEmacs, you can bind up to 32 mouse buttons." - Obviously, mice get more complex than I was aware :) 19:54:48 _6502_: oh lispers never do releases ;) 19:54:55 <_6502_> for example in python i really hate hate hate the binary dependency on sip (it's a nice tool that allows writing C++ bindings with minimal efforts) 19:55:03 mmm mud 19:55:18 <_6502_> but it's incompatible both with future and with past 19:55:59 (: 19:56:12 well bedtime 19:56:30 Night schme 19:56:32 <_6502_> but for most other libraries it's just point and click, and they work 19:56:42 <_6502_> night 19:57:10 what language do you think would be best for machine manipulation/analysis? 19:57:12 segmond: learn what you need when you need it 19:57:12 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:57:19 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:57:19 segmond: growth hormones 19:57:23 segmond: CL is smaller than most modern languages 19:57:25 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 19:57:35 b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has joined #lisp 19:58:10 segmond, one piece at a time. 19:58:16 (like eating a huge elephant) 19:58:29 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 19:58:32 hmm would growth hormones increase head size? 19:58:40 _6502_: Sometimes it actually works quite well for CL 19:58:45 rahul, no, just gut size. 19:58:53 But no one ever really talks about those times 19:58:58 What's the difference? 19:59:13 dunno, I think with my tummy. 19:59:21 it tells me when to eat. 20:00:44 -!- b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:45 carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.81] has joined #lisp 20:01:50 -!- nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.144.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:02:50 b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has joined #lisp 20:03:12 LinkFly [~linkfly@94.158.187.24] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 -!- b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:32 <_6502_> guthur: hehehe... it would be nice having a sort function that sometimes works quite well 20:03:52 b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has joined #lisp 20:04:01 <_6502_> guthur: but then again may be it's me... i'm dumb after all 20:04:18 nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.144.128] has joined #lisp 20:04:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:06 <_6502_> guthur: this probably also brings in the 3rd problem with lisp... lispers 20:05:12 lol 20:05:19 It was bound to come out sometime 20:05:46 too few, too many? 20:06:05 <_6502_> guthur: you're one that for some strange reason thinks that the vast majority is always always wrong ? 20:06:20 Maybe there is too many, we need a lisper cull 20:06:21 <_6502_> tic: attitude 20:06:33 _6502_, what's with the attitude? 20:06:50 Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:07:20 Of course the vast majority is wrong, if they were right they would be using CL 20:07:31 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:07:42 *Tongue in cheek* 20:07:48 i'm new to lisp, but love lispers, the are passionate, however, i wish they would do the boring stuff too, the boring stuff is important. :-) 20:07:55 <_6502_> tic: you really don't get it or are you having fun ? cannot say with a lisper 20:07:57 what is the boring stuff, segmond? 20:08:07 boring stuff - pretty websites, better documentations, much organized libraries. 20:08:08 -!- LinkFly [~linkfly@94.158.187.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:08:23 _6502_, while I try to have fun, no, I'm not sure I get it. What /is/ wrong with Lispers? 20:08:34 i don't personally need it, i can find my way around systems with little documentations, but most people can't. 20:09:24 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 frankly, i say organize better libraries, and duplicate every fucking python library. :-) 20:09:44 segmond, There is some great documentation, its in the files marked .lisp 20:09:45 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-75-48.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:57 segmond: There are some great books about Common Lisp. Probably hard to find competitive books for other languages. 20:10:00 Guthur, that's not html... 20:10:07 tcr, i'm not talking about books. 20:10:13 i'm talking about websites. 20:10:25 the distribution website for sbcl, clisp are all ugly 20:10:45 if they were "pretty" as python.org and organized that will really help convert 20:10:45 clisp is just plain ugly 20:10:58 Though it does have that wee animation on startup 20:11:06 Least it did 20:11:21 and one thing that i haven't seen in tutorials is "LISP for C/Java/C++" programmers. where a code is written in C or java, and translated to lisp. that will help a lot of people. 20:11:21 <_6502_> tic: it's better for me not replying... you wouldn't like it 20:11:39 guthur, your elitist attitude kills me. 20:11:50 segmond: hehe I try 20:12:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-75-48.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:12:27 -!- b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:29 segmond: write one 20:12:31 <_6502_> he's just a typical lisper... i think that's something related with brain power 20:12:34 segmond: we need converts? 20:12:42 arbscht, i'm a lisp newbie. 20:12:45 b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has joined #lisp 20:12:55 segmond: I am too. that doesn't stop me :-) 20:13:00 segmond: it's a great way to learn 20:13:02 <_6502_> up to a certain point there's direct correlation with ego 20:13:04 _6502_: Please cut off that annoying behaviour. You have been offered real help in here yesterday; what made you start become obnoxious? 20:13:12 arbscht, perhaps one day. :-) i don't try to teach until i have a better understanding. 20:13:28 <_6502_> ok... sorry tcr 20:13:34 segmond: that's the other way around: you can't write Lisp as Java 20:13:40 -!- b3li3ll [~b3li3ll@87.70.41.212] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:47 segmond: take a look at ABCL and you'll find out how difficult it is 20:13:49 and ugly 20:13:51 everyone suggests "practical common lisp" but i'm not going that route. :-) my first tutorial was "basic lisp techniques" the current one is "common lisp an interactive approach" 20:13:52 _6502_, you've already said you dislike the attitude of Lispers. Why not then say what it is? 20:14:04 <_6502_> and yes this place has been quite helpful 20:14:05 segmond, well, PCL /is/ a good book. 20:14:09 ehu, i never said write lisp as java, i said write java code, then show a lisp equivalent. that you can do. 20:14:30 tic, i'm sure it is, but there are better books there for a newbie, i will get to it. 20:14:47 after i'm done with that, i'm going to hit successful lisp, then practical common lisp 20:14:53 segmond: we don't want people to write parenthesized C 20:14:56 <_6502_> pcl is a great book in my opinion, even if must say i skipped a few parts because of boredom 20:15:04 segmond: we want them to write lisp 20:15:05 then PAIP, then On Lisp, then let over lambda, then object-oriented programing in CL. 20:15:30 ehu, i didn't say write lisp code as C 20:15:39 _6502_: Are there many Lispers who join #python and start tirades about faded stereotypes? 20:15:47 If not, go figure. 20:15:50 stop being hardheaded, you can write it in lisp, the fact is that they can now see the transition. 20:15:59 i didn't say write lisp code that looks like java or C code 20:16:07 segmond: no, you said write java code; then translate that to lisp 20:16:12 Segmond: Those are great books, but you need to get your hands dirty as well. 20:16:16 segmond: that's the same as parenthesized Java 20:16:21 segmond: that's not Lisp 20:16:22 <_6502_> tic: sorry ? i'm not a python zealot... actually i think lisp is better 20:16:25 yeah, the translation is the lisp equivalence. 20:16:26 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-83-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:16:34 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:37 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:16:39 ehu, i don't feel like arguing, so if that's how you wish to interpret what I said, then fine. 20:16:42 segmond: instead of arguing hypothetically, go work on a few of these examples and see what happens. nevermind teaching, you will learn in the process 20:16:47 billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-060-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:48 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-183-171.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:51 _6502_: that was supposed to be directed at me? 20:17:04 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:17:18 <_6502_> tcr: yes, sorry 20:17:21 -!- nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.144.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:24 I just notice that most programmers are craftsmen, if you give them psuedo code, they will still be lost and want practical code, so they best way for them to learn a language is to see a sample code in a language they know and the same code in another language. 20:17:56 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-99-162-100-58.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:18:06 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:18:08 segmond: neither do I. The only way to learn how to write Lisp is by reading existing code. 20:18:21 segmond: But there is just plain better ways of doing things in CL, it will bear very little resemblance. 20:18:23 but that's the thing about the lisp crowd, there are very stubborn individuals. i might be a newbie, but i know lispers, i read "merits of python vs lisp" on c.l.l i got a good idea of the crowd. lol 20:18:29 segmond: the problem is different languages solve problems differently, so often Good code in each language has very little similarity 20:18:31 segmond: using C or Java or whatever as a jumping board doesn't work. 20:18:46 segmond: you'll end up writing glorified C 20:18:53 guthur, of course, but it's a start, the idea is we want to at least start using the language, in due time, they will learn the best ways to do things. 20:18:55 I think it's obvious that 6502's problem is one of perception.. he has an imaginary group in mind, "Lispers", attributes some kind of attitude to it, "smugness", and once he decided that an individual belongs to this group (say, by being a regular here) he perceives a confirmation of his stereotype 20:18:59 nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.144.128] has joined #lisp 20:19:02 -!- licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:05 segmond: that's not an argument; it's a statement - and it's true. 20:19:06 ok sleep is off. 20:19:15 ehu, for you. 20:19:29 segmond: I don't think the "lisp for algolers" is such a brilliant idea. and showing code snippets and then how to do it in lisp. 20:19:39 <_6502_> adhet: it's my third week with lisp, and my second day here; i don't even know who the regulars are 20:19:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756f40.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:52 -!- cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:05 6502: so who do you refer to when you speak of "Lispers" 20:20:05 _6502_, you said Lispers have an attitude. Now can you please tell me what that attitude is? 20:20:05 segmond: good luck. 20:20:10 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@91-66-85-102-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20:14 6502, me too. it's around my thrid week too. :-) 20:20:14 segmond: It makes sense within the algol family. Or inside the ML family (eg. haskell for sml:ers).. but lisp for C-heads? I dunno man :) 20:20:24 Lisp is Different(tm). 20:20:26 it depends heavily on each person's learning style, for me idiomatic samples are the best 20:20:29 <_6502_> adhet: probably i had a bit of preconceptions, because i read a bit about why lisp did not succeed as a language 20:20:41 By whom? 20:20:47 so none of you guys came from a C background? you can't see how a C programmer can transition from C to lisp? perhaps you need to do more thinking. 20:20:48 nuba: Then you have PAIP and PCL :) 20:20:54 ehu, good luck with what? i'm just making a suggestion. 20:21:01 segmond: I come from a C background. 20:21:23 good luck learning Lisp-as-Java 20:21:24 <_6502_> tcr: googling every possible document and blog... if that by whom was for me 20:21:45 _6502_, Segmond: Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't being too serious with the elitist attitude, it was an attempt at some humour; I wouldn't want to be tarnishing your view of what is generally a good community here. 20:21:49 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:49 ehu, you just love to argue. i never said i'm learning lisp as java or for anyone to learn lisp AS JAVA 20:21:53 segmond: you explicitly told me it's not working for me. Implying that it will work for you. Good luck. 20:21:57 segmond: You don't see this for other languages either.. Haskell for C-heads tutorial has like two bits of C in it. then ends the code-to-code comparision. 20:22:11 kanja [~benbeeche@stu233-32.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:15 I know very little about CL anyway, only been using it for 10 months or so. 20:22:16 _6502_: Why do you think it did not succeed? 20:22:18 6502: so consider what I just wrote again. your preconceptions are the problem 20:22:46 ehu, and scheme, please, let's save some bandwidth and end this conversation here. some people in other parts of the world might need it. 20:23:00 segmond, best way for a C programmer (a really good one) to learn Lisp is to implement one. 20:23:14 nus: I agree with that. 20:23:15 <_6502_> tcr: i have no idea... i find it wonderful 20:23:24 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:23:27 segmond: So write one if you think there is a need. 20:23:29 lisp is the UNIX of programming languages. 20:23:33 is there a way to use cond and case tail recursively? 20:23:51 -!- nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.144.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:23:53 <_6502_> tcr: one of the stated problems is that's just a bit TOO powerful, and people prefers re-writing things for the fun of it instead of building a code base 20:24:07 kanja: uhm, neither COND nor CASE should prevent TCO 20:24:15 "don't make it any easier! don't make it pretty, if they can learn it, let them figure it out!, it works and it's the greatest thing but no hands holding around here" 20:24:44 6502, frankly, i think it was lack of books, compilers and interpreters 20:24:46 segmond: There is very good handholding. Take a look at PAIP and PCL. 20:24:48 segmond: that's not true. We hold hands. Not of C programmers though. 20:25:13 in 1993, any kid could get turboC and turbo pascal and Qbasic, but no lisp compiler/interpreter for PCs 20:25:19 segmond: Then please provide me with a book for python, or C++, or Java that holds my hand as good as PAIP. 20:25:30 segmond: fortunately, that's all changed. 20:25:43 quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:45 ehu, and unfortunately, it didn't happen fast enough 20:25:55 I'm wondering when you guys get to the phase where you open a text editor and code. 20:25:56 segmond: there are several good implementations running on the cheapest windows hardware you can fid 20:25:57 fnd 20:26:07 find? 20:26:11 lol 20:26:15 ehu, you just love to talk! i'm i talking about 2010? 20:26:16 <_6502_> segmond: for python there is just one implementation, and python isn't compiled and for many things it's dog slow 20:26:24 we are talking about 10-20yrs ago 20:26:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:31 "the reason why lisp didn't take off" 20:26:40 1993... I'm thinking maybe one just installed slackware and maybe there was some lisp. I dunno. 20:26:55 segmond: that's not relevant anymore 20:26:56 scheme, there was no slackware in 1993 20:27:10 segmond: Ok. atleast I installed it in 1994. 20:27:14 ehu, we are having discussion about history. 20:27:14 segmond: So maybe some bsd then. 20:27:18 segmond: maybe lisp didn't take off because not enough people "got it" 20:27:32 segmond: or because of many many other reasons. 20:27:33 tcr: I swear I was having problems, and then after you said that I went to use time to prove it and lo and behold they disappear. 20:27:40 schme, the average teen, computer programmer in 1994 didn't run linux or BSD 20:27:42 they ran MSDOS 20:27:51 so? 20:27:57 segmond: Well that is still true. 20:28:01 and there was no lisp environment for them then. 20:28:09 so? 20:28:11 so everyone used C, and then switch to C++ and Java etc 20:28:12 "lisp compiler/interpreter for PCs" -- PC does not imply Linux. 20:28:15 segmond: if that was a problem, we'd be coding in tiny c. 20:28:16 and you think this is why lisp did not "take of" ? 20:28:19 <_6502_> ehu: probably that's true... i know a VERY smart guy, that actually worked at symbolics but that - his words - never "grokked" it 20:28:46 pkhuong, if what is a problem? did i imply that anything is a problem? we are talking about "history" the "past" 20:29:01 *ehu* is not talking about the past 20:29:02 <_6502_> may be lisp is not for everyone. i know programmers that have problem with pointers and linked lists 20:29:05 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:29:09 ehu, then stop talking. i'm not talking to you then. 20:29:12 *ehu* is talking about lisp *today* 20:29:18 <_6502_> may be there can be a problem for the lisp model for someone 20:29:24 ehu: I'm also confused about all this 1993 bollocks. 20:29:26 tic: Everyone knows freeing your PC from Windows turns it into a 'supercomputer' 20:29:27 pkhuong: I suggest not to be drawn into it :-) 20:29:28 segmond: you were talking about today too. 20:29:30 Guthur, aha. 20:29:48 segmond: or did you mean to say there was too little hand-holding in 1993? 20:29:48 tcr: think it's time to point to #lispcafe? 20:29:50 nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.144.128] has joined #lisp 20:29:51 6502, no language is for everyone or everything. :-) 20:30:06 It's long past time to point to #lispcafe. 20:30:10 "Yo, shut up and code" :-P (-; 20:30:26 I dunno why people who don't know a language bother so much to talk about it 20:30:34 <_6502_> segmond: but lisp is *any* language :-D 20:30:38 segmond: hey man. initial release of slackware was july 1993. 20:30:46 6502, you are becoming a good lisper. :-) 20:31:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:31:24 I don't think the average teen even writes computer programs. 20:31:38 they did html for a short while. 20:32:01 I miss midi files on the websites. 20:32:02 :) 20:32:02 if you want to learn lisp, rafb. if you have technical questions, this is the place. if you want to reminisce about the possible worlds of the past, personally I'm not interested 20:32:08 nowadays they might make flash videos, but usually just put together animes and music videos in Windows Movie Maker and put up on youtube. 20:32:35 tic: I have seen that cell phones now have a thing for sending videas directly to your youtube account. 20:32:38 *ehu* joins adeht 20:32:41 you guys are just plain silly, "average teen" = "average computer oriented teen" and in early 90's average comptuer geek was doing C/pascal/asm because those were available. 20:32:46 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:51 segmond: Who cares? 20:32:59 I got my first lisp book in 1994, i couldn't use it, because i had no access to a lisp compiler/interpreter 20:33:09 segmond, kids dont program these days. what's worse, they keep hogging my lawn. 20:33:10 schme: let's just give him time to study his books 20:33:30 segmond: You could have installed clisp. 20:33:37 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:43 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:34:01 after loading lispy (failed on gpg key check, but it should be ok I suppose) I invoke (lispy:list-map) and get nothing in the output. What may be wrong? 20:34:02 It even ran on the amiga ! 20:34:05 -!- blandest [~blandest@79.112.109.113] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:34:18 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:34:24 scheme, in 94? 20:34:41 segmond: Yes. 20:34:48 scheme, what search engine would i use to find it? archie or gopher? over what modem will i download it? 20:34:51 segmond: it ran on MSDOS in 94 then. 20:34:55 -!- Guthur [~Michael@213.122.221.177] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 20:35:05 segmond: modem? I guess on your modem you had at home for connecting to the internet. 20:35:06 in 94, i had an 8088 machine with 128k mem 20:35:12 Great. 20:35:18 and no harddriver 20:35:20 I had a neat 14k4 modem back then. those were the days. 20:35:22 wow. you were 10 years late 20:35:31 segmond: C wasn't even all that available :) 20:35:31 yeah, goodfor you. i had a 2400bps modem. i was poor. 20:35:38 the compilers were usually rather expensive 20:35:54 rsynn, but the unix systems i had access to then, had gcc. :-) 20:36:06 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 20:36:23 and i had access to turbo C via school and friends. 20:36:51 anywayz, i guess we are way off topic re #lisp, so i'm done. :-) 20:37:58 But really.. an 8088 in 94? Shit man. 20:38:39 lol, it didn't matter tho, i just used it as a terminal to dial out and get into the unix sytems. :-) 20:38:44 By '94, I'm fairly sure I had a 486... maybe a 386. 20:38:45 segmond: To be honest it seems taht the most hip language early 90s among the "teens" was AMOS. 20:39:04 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:13 unless you're from the odd part of the world where amiga wasn't the in thing ;) 20:39:15 in '94 I was using an amiga3000 with a 68030 in it. 20:39:38 schme, well, i was always PC side, PC side was C/pascal/asm. 20:40:02 I keep hearing good things about amigas, but I never figured out why... 20:40:16 segmond: There was a good deal of that on the amiga too. atleast the C and asm. 20:40:18 but then again, i have always stayed behind technology, never tried to have the latest, my current machine is like 1.5ghz, 512mb ram. :-) 20:40:41 well, they were better than pc/dos/win machines and macs of the time, if only because they actually multitasked. 20:40:41 segmond: 8088 in 94 is ... not staying behind.. it is something else.. I dunno what :) 20:40:45 nyef: They were the first personal computers to ship with a 32bit pre-emptive multitasking operating system 20:40:50 and you could get unix for them on tapes. 20:40:54 which I had. 20:40:54 4096 colours! 20:41:11 GURU MEDITATION 20:41:19 dead beef 20:41:34 and that.. horrid excuse for a mouse. 20:41:35 yum. :) 20:41:39 :) 20:41:50 the interface was pretty novel, and it had an actual shell. 20:42:03 the pc felt sort of primitive to me back then. 20:42:09 Yeah. 20:42:39 actually, it probably also pre-dated accessible free unixy things for the 386 20:42:44 -!- kanja [~benbeeche@stu233-32.bard.edu] has left #lisp 20:42:45 I know some people who stuck to an amiga for their personal computer until ~2000. 20:42:50 so not surprising it was popular (pre-unix) 20:43:00 amiga was ahead of the time. 20:43:02 (or pre-unix-for-normal-people) 20:43:06 BeOS! 20:43:14 beos was later 20:43:25 (and it still does feel primitive) 20:43:27 Amiga was also one of the many things nearly bought by Apple 20:43:28 I know. R3/x86 in '98. 20:43:31 my first unix machine was an amiga3000 with commodore's ported system4 loaded from tape. 20:43:46 in their almost endless quest to replace old MacOS (beos was also considered) 20:43:54 tic: I looked at that haiku. that is supposedly heavily beos inspired. All the interfacing with C++ just to write a GUI makes me cry :) 20:43:55 Alas, JLG wanted too much. 20:44:15 schme, it's not inspired, it /is/ BeOS. Both source and binary compatibility. :-) 20:44:20 I see. 20:44:26 I gather that BeOS was quite difficult to program for, too 20:44:27 What is up with all the C++!? 20:44:37 schme, hard to be binary compat otherwise. 20:44:42 rsynnott, oh? 20:44:53 You need to understand threading, sure. But other than that? 20:44:57 when beos came out the fact that it was written in c++ from the bones up was actually used as a marketing feature. :) 20:45:07 tic: needing to understand threading is quite bad enough :) 20:45:09 tic: from the haiku main page.. "Inspired by the BeOS" :P 20:45:18 that excludes maybe 95% of programmers in a stroke 20:45:23 schme, yes yes. 20:45:30 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:45:31 rsynnott, that's a feature! 20:45:54 Why did you need to understanding threading? 20:46:23 their whole kit approach was interesting. 20:46:25 Heh. BeOS threading: "Our APIs are so bad, you -have- to use a ton of threads to get around the problems." 20:46:31 I guess apple has followed that path now. 20:46:46 tcr, e.g. not handling heavy tasks in BHandler::MessageReceived() 20:47:12 You'll want to spawn a worker thread doing that. 20:47:20 well since unix was built on C, and C++ was supposedly the next best thing, an OS built complete on C++ will be sorta like Unix++ that's what BeOS thought it was. lol 20:47:30 Fade, yup. 20:47:52 i had an actual BeBox for a short time. 20:47:55 Fade: well, Apple got it from NeXT, not BeOS 20:48:21 Of course, a few years later everyone was going on about OSes in Java 20:48:26 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 20:48:29 the only apple computer i have owned is an apple ][ and that was in 1995. :-O so i can't say anything about apple. 20:48:52 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:59 and in 2002 or so Microsoft was muttering about Windows substantially in .NET, though that went out the window along with all the other stuff that they promised for Longhorn 20:49:16 yeah, well. 20:49:23 <_6502_> segmond: apple ][ rocks (well... rocked in 1982) 20:49:32 I guess an os in java would be possible on azul hardware. 20:49:35 can't help it, i was a late bloomer. 20:49:41 Heh. Speaking of OSes in Java, one of the Explorer 3 project guys was one of those, and they started trying to turn E3 into a standalone kernel for running an Explorer disk image as a PC OS. 20:50:01 explorer3? 20:50:05 whatsit? 20:50:12 TI Explorer emulator. 20:50:15 ahh 20:50:32 what a bizarre conflation of interests.. 20:50:35 java and lisp machines. 20:50:35 I use the term "emulator" loosely, given that it was the one that I'm aware of that never emulated a single instruction. 20:50:52 And in the end, all kernels are still in C, with userspace OS-y stuff still mostly restricted to C, C++ and ObjC :) 20:51:21 rsynnott: Take Movitz or SBCL-os and run with it, then. :-P 20:51:25 rsynnott: i think there are some signifigant kernels written in c++.. 20:51:34 really? 20:51:40 the beos kernel was. 20:51:43 Oh, WinNT might be, actually 20:51:47 I'm under theimpression that windows is. 20:51:53 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-vbpmyraqnjwselyi] has quit [Quit: rread] 20:52:00 *_6502_* is trying to byte-compile lisp for a vm written in interpreted lisp 20:52:41 is the xnu kernel written in obj-c? 20:56:51 Fade: nope; C I think 20:58:13 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:14 mostly C, last I looked. 20:58:20 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.63.239] has quit [Quit: netytan] 20:58:29 Not sure if they still post it for download or not 20:58:42 They do, yep 20:58:55 there was a period when the Intel one wasn't available, but pretty sure it is now 20:59:00 aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:59:00 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:59:58 mle: this appears to be the 10.6.3 one: http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-1504.3.12/ 21:00:31 cool 21:03:08 -!- nurv|afk is now known as nurv 21:04:07 *nod* 21:06:52 faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:10:08 wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:53 Does this mean we can get a free version of enough of OSX to test SBCL on? 21:11:55 lordakinator [~igaray@190.1.58.108] has joined #lisp 21:12:08 not sure; it's possible 21:12:15 xnu is just the kernel 21:12:28 various other bits and pieces are also open-sourced, though 21:12:33 Good evening! 21:12:36 you might be able to get a working system witout GUI 21:13:35 <_6502_> beach... 21:13:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:51 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:17:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:18:25 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@190.1.58.108] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 21:19:09 -!- faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 21:19:27 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:58 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:40 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:30 brookeGarcia [~brookeGar@dsl-150-40.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 21:26:38 troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:42 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-201-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:00 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:28:48 -!- codeassembly [~givan@188.25.59.127] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:02 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:34 -!- troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:52 (irc:say *current-channel* 'evening) 21:34:32 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:35:36 Heh. Hello p_l. 21:36:02 *p_l* finally reached Aberdeen, 7 days late. 21:36:07 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA5C7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:36:32 -!- Anchakor [ojirio@217.197.150.222] has left #lisp 21:36:36 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-59-157.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:36:52 -!- nurv [nurv@62.32.144.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:37:01 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:39:21 nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.144.128] has joined #lisp 21:39:29 -!- nurv|afk is now known as nurv 21:40:12 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-6-220.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:33 p_l: I'm with you. Off to bed. See you in the morning. 21:42:35 -!- felideon_away [~felideon@adsl-2-97-200.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:42:46 cya :) 21:43:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-183-171.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:46:04 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:12 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:50 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:46:56 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:28 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:47:35 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 21:47:59 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:48:15 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host 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[~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 22:00:47 italic [~italic@cpe-69-207-6-88.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:51 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:01:17 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:48 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 22:02:02 -!- glogic [~rm@97.76.48.98] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:02:28 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:59 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 22:03:39 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:10 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 22:04:56 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:20 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:34 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:45 -!- zoldar [~zoldar@ods82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:10:42 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:11:34 kanja [~benbeeche@stu233-32.bard.edu] has joined #lisp 22:11:56 I'm trying (documentation 'reduce 'function) and getting back nil - what am I doing wrong? 22:13:36 documentation is optional 22:13:41 clhs reduce 22:13:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm 22:14:02 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:37 -!- nurv [nurv@62.32.144.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:15:47 I know how to find the documentation using clhs, but I Was hoping to use slime and stay inside emacs 22:16:08 the problem here is just that sbcl doesn't have documentation for this? Would that be considered a bug? 22:16:11 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:12 `C-c C-d h reduce ' 22:16:50 you can get a local copy of the clhs and set common-lisp-hyperspec-root to the appropraite directory 22:17:29 brah- [brah@cant.synflood.me] has joined #lisp 22:17:45 I hear a lot of lisp coders talk about how awesome they are 22:17:48 also, I have the value `w3m-browse-url' for browse-url-browser-function 22:18:07 yet when I ask them what of any importance, usefulness have they made in lisp 22:18:11 they get real quiet 22:18:26 brah: we don't care 22:18:44 adeht it's ok, you're just insecure 22:18:46 adeht: I read about doing that - it's a good idea, but I was hoping to be able to drop x when using lisp 22:18:59 brah: thanks 22:19:01 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:19:05 adeht: I mean I _could_ use lynx, but... 22:19:17 kanja: w3m works fine. 22:19:20 kanja: ?.. w3m-emacs 22:19:30 brah-: insecure would be rising to the bait you just laid... 22:19:38 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:50 w3m doesn't depend on x? 22:19:57 no 22:20:05 shows what I know 22:20:12 nurv [nurv@62.32.144.128] has joined #lisp 22:21:05 ... I vaguely remember a bug having been filed about enabling GC sanity checks causing the test suite to die screaming, but have been unable to find it in launchpad. 22:21:13 Anyone know where to find this bug? 22:21:28 (Well, the tracker entry for the bug at least?) 22:23:17 kanja isn't bait, is just somethin I discovered and shared 22:24:40 so w3m + a local copy of the hyper spec is the preferred way to do documentation in emacs? 22:24:56 kanja: my preferred way 22:25:35 adeht: cool, thanks - I'll set that up 22:27:07 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:19 <_6502_> if in the code of a function there is a list that is also accessible from another place and I compile the function... what happens if I modify the list ? 22:30:13 <_6502_> clhs says that objects are not copied and not coalesced, but they will be eql (not eq)... i don't understand 22:30:22 Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:36 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:30:39 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:42 jao [~jao@6.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:20 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:37 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: -aotnheusanotehusnoeath] 22:32:28 -!- eugu [~eugene@212.1.246.237] has left #lisp 22:33:10 6502: I don't understand your question. if you're talking about literals, you should never modify those, the consequences are undefined if you do. if you're talking about simple shared structure, it'll get modified 22:33:22 -!- jao [~jao@6.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 22:33:33 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-75-48.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:27 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-75-48.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:54 <_6502_> adeht: so code of a function cannot be "patched", you must rebuild it all, correct ? 22:35:56 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 22:36:30 6502: can you be more specific on what "patched" means? 22:38:23 <_6502_> adeht: i've a function that a some point has "(list 1 2 3)" that is a list... if i've another mean to reach that list (for example a variable) then i can for example setting the second element of the list to 42. What happens to already the already defined function ? 22:39:23 6502: if your list was constructed using `list', then it's not a literal and you can modify the cons cells.. 22:39:38 -!- rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:15 <_6502_> adeht: ok... suppose i used (list 'list 1 2 3) and not '(list 1 2 3) to build the list 22:40:30 the changes will be visible to anything referring to the object 22:40:31 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-99-162-100-58.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:42 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:50 _6502_: however, "(list 'list 1 2 3)" is a function call, 22:40:54 <_6502_> adeht: including code of compiled functions ? that's the question 22:42:00 6502: I don't see what compilation has to do with this 22:42:55 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:54 <_6502_> adeht: ok i'll build a full example... 22:45:41 _6502_ pasted "code patch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98340 22:46:07 cid` [~cid@178-25-28-89-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:46:17 <_6502_> adeht: sbcl doesn't see the change, clisp sees the change (even when invoked with -C) 22:46:49 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:15 <_6502_> adeht: i got the doubt about compilation because i'm writing a toy compiler and mine doesn't support code patching 22:48:35 _6502_: right, side-effecting just about anything you passed to EVAL or COMPILE has undefined effects. 22:48:50 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:01 <_6502_> adeht: i checked CLHS and i didn't understand what's required in the standard (especially because it says that no copy is done) 22:49:29 <_6502_> thanks... everything is clear now 22:49:33 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:52:20 6502: I believe you can say that the object is a literal, because it's "referenced directly in a program" 22:52:27 -!- kanja [~benbeeche@stu233-32.bard.edu] has left #lisp 22:54:14 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:17 toxygen [toxygen@stip-static-98.213-81-186.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 22:54:47 <_6502_> adeht: hmmm... that sounds weird. It's more or less like saying that it's code and it's not data. Is this #lisp or #java ? :-) 22:55:07 ? 22:55:22 that's from the definition of "literal" in the glossary 22:55:37 <_6502_> adeht: i was joking, i think i understand ... 22:57:29 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:38 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:10 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:58:26 <_6502_> more or less 22:58:51 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:02:23 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Puf!] 23:02:28 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:09 -!- aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:37 -!- nurv [nurv@62.32.144.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:41 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-250-95.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:49 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-250-95.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:15 nurv|afk [nurv@83.231.19.199] has joined #lisp 23:06:30 -!- nurv|afk is now known as nurv 23:06:30 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 23:06:31 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 23:07:36 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 23:09:40 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:27 <_6502_> i think i like more calling "literal" anything that was directly referenced in something passed to COMPILE or EVAL 23:13:42 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:27 <_6502_> becoming a literal is something that happens at a certain point in time 23:15:47 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.8] has joined #lisp 23:17:40 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.19.199] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:07 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:27:43 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-201-108.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:46 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-250-95.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:58 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-201-108.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:24 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-250-95.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:01 <_6502_> dang 23:30:20 *_6502_* wants lexicals! 23:31:24 lexicals? 23:31:45 <_6502_> my toy interpreter only has dynamic binding 23:31:54 ahh. 23:32:43 <_6502_> the compiler works... but in the wm i'm accessing the symbol table and I didn't care about name collisions 23:33:20 <_6502_> so i've to rename all symbols used in vm instructions that access the symbol table 23:34:18 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:22 *_6502_* all of a sudden realizes that it won't be easy to compile the vm 23:37:19 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:31 -!- [01]Lince [~dani@bl5-155-4.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [] 23:39:59 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 23:43:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@71-255.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:35 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:30 heyhey [~512beaf9@gateway/web/freenode/x-vtckmfsnmzfdxlqe] has joined #lisp 23:49:31 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:50:28 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:21 hi, I feel overwhelmed by the number of free lisp implementations.... Which one is most reputed or you use most? 23:52:33 <_6502_> YAY! 23:52:48 *_6502_* was able to run a compiled version of fact... and worked! 23:53:10 yay 23:53:21 what is fact? 23:53:32 heyhey: For Common Lisp, you should usually use SBCL 23:53:33 <_6502_> i like sbcl most, but i'm a lisp newbie 23:53:43 For Scheme.... Who knows 23:54:02 :) 23:54:23 <_6502_> fact is the well known recursive factorial (defun fact (x) (if (< x 2) 1 (* x (fact (1- x))))) 23:54:33 heyhey: clozurecl is also a fine choice, especially if you target windows or osx 23:55:54 ok, thanks 23:56:53 is there a feud between scheme and common lisp? :) 23:57:48 nobody uses scheme 23:57:52 <_6502_> i've got the impression that schemers don't like macros too much; and lisp without macros is imho nonsense 23:58:35 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp