00:00:44 pkhuong: so if the function isn't hidden in a variable, I can expect it to inline the call (or at least for lambdas?) 00:00:47 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:03 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:24 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:31 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79.101.250.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:41 *p_l|hospital* never expected hospiatl to be that loud... 00:04:44 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 00:05:50 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:56 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:06:22 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:34 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:07:22 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:56 p_l|hospital: even through a variable, if it's constant enough. 00:08:24 thanks 00:08:47 *p_l|hospital* was just clearing up some stuff while reading through "Succesful Lisp" 00:10:45 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:56 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:11:53 beach: indeed, it's a strange paper. I find it ironic that static language proponents try to play the prototype card, but that's not the worst part.. the worst part is the dubious experiment and interpretation of results (and "software metrics", that big sham..).. in short, GIGO 00:13:04 adeht: I don't know about other languages, but Haskell is rather well suited to prototyping IMHO 00:13:44 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has left #lisp 00:13:54 it gets by thanks to its type inference - anyone forced to manually write all those declarations would go mad writing a simple calculator 00:14:52 though it might be because I know a haskell developer who is quite proficient at it :) 00:14:53 p_l|hospital: in my experience (which admittedly is much less indicative than, say, my Lisp experience ;) it is not 00:16:41 adeht: I assume it requires being quite well versed in the language and the type system itself, otherwise it isn't too good language to program - the type system is probably doing half of the work of any bigger program there 00:17:40 perhaps it's because I'm not part of academia, but I'd be ashamed to write a paper taking such an obviously flawed "experiment" so seriosuly 00:17:47 GHCi isn't that bad of an interpreter, but definitely isn't close to what even a bare lisp + prepl can offer. 00:18:19 -!- cid` [~cid@178-25-28-89-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 00:18:52 adeht: I don't think it tried to claim full scientific method behind it, since iirc it is really hard to setup full regime for such a study. 00:19:03 Did some of that for psychology, and it can be hard even for a simple thing. 00:19:27 given the amount of variables in that study... I wouldn't dare. 00:19:51 p_l|hospital: indeed.. 00:20:59 adeht: I think it's already assumed by most, that CS paper unless it actually claims specific experiment method, doesn't try to claim full scientific method. But I'm only a student, beach can probably answer that better. 00:21:10 p_l|hospital: as for Haskell, my opinion is that it resembles C++ in the worst way.. complexity. 00:21:12 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:21:24 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:22:21 adeht: I'm not sure if I'd agree, but mainly because I seem to grasp some kind of sensibility in Haskell (without Template Haskell, that is) while C++ loses me due to extreme use of templates. 00:22:23 p_l|hospital: I'm speaking about the conclusions and the attempt at writeup relative to the actual experiment 00:24:53 common lisp is also complex 00:24:59 p_l|hospital: I'm speaking about bang-for-the-buck.. you have to go to alot of trouble in Haskell (both in understanding the weird concepts they come up with and in formulating a solution that fits those) to solve a problem 00:25:58 in Lisp the approach is the polar opposite: you focus on description of the solution in the terms of the problem 00:26:24 adeht: from my understanding, the big leap of faith is understanding various basic, common classes of the type system, which is necessary to understand any of the more complex constructions. To quote typoclassopedia: "Someone wrote fmap fmap fmap and my head asplode!" 00:26:33 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Quit: Puf!] 00:26:45 Guthur: there's M-n and M-p in the .lisp buffer and also next-error and previous-error 00:28:21 tcr: Great, cheers 00:28:51 tcr: the big ideas in Lisp are simple.. 00:30:03 typoclassopedia was also simple-looking. And there's the bit about most of the haskell code I see being written in heavily applicative style. 00:30:09 the problem with Common Lisp is it's too unrestrictive. The more you restrict, the more the machine can possibly do for you. Haskell is kind of the opposite in that regard. 00:30:45 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:31:25 tcr: Haskell only has a rigid typesystem... as long as the types match, you can fit everything, and they made enough types and "wrappers" to fit nearly everything. 00:31:34 -!- nurv [nurv@62.32.135.54] has quit [] 00:31:52 tcr: sure, I think they come from opposite directions.. while you may think CL is too unrestrictive, I'd much rather a language coming from that direction.. and besides, CL took the tradeoff seriously, unlike Python/Ruby/... 00:31:55 there seemed to be a common theme of making a simple scheme interpreter as Haskell tutorial... 00:33:00 adeht: Python was supposed to be a teaching tool, while Ruby was designed as simpler, more readable Perl with bits of Lisp and Smalltalk. It wasn't till later that both got blown completely outside those parameters :-) 00:33:13 adeht: Haskell is Scheme methodology on steroids, basically ;) 00:33:26 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:33:32 tcr: Haskell doesn't feel like it takes that tradeoff seriously.. its methodology is like Scheme's, elaborate theoretical foundation over actual experience (which they get nowadays, I suppose) 00:33:43 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:52 tcr: heh :) 00:33:54 I don't think that's true 00:33:56 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:34:43 adeht: They put serious amount of research into building the language while actually taking "real world" into account, though it was only lately that it bore fruit 00:35:07 scheme, by comparison, would be an overnight job. 00:35:10 p_l|hospital: indeed, and both have a hobbyist's design 00:36:00 adeht: I wouldn't say so - C has hobbyist's design, the same could be said for Ruby and some others. 00:36:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:36:18 p_l|hospital: by "both" I meant python and ruby 00:36:27 ah, okay 00:36:44 I agree :) 00:39:19 kelsin [~cgiroir@www.dreaminginlyrics.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:27 CL had the good of both worlds.. top-notch designs w/ theoretical foundation (but not obsessive One Theory To Rule Them All) and industry experience. it really shows. it's also a wonder that the committee didn't screw everything up, shows their ingenuity. 00:41:05 adeht: though I would prefer if full MOP made its way in :P 00:41:34 p_l|hospital: yes, but MOP is lacking in completeness, even nowdays 00:43:44 pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has joined #lisp 00:44:57 also, is the final report of the "experiment" still unpublished? 00:45:43 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:01 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.6] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 00:47:29 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:37 -!- jrockway_ is now known as jrockway 00:47:42 beach: the paper also suggested to me an interesting background story to some of the examples in Hudak's HSE book 00:50:55 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:04 *p_l|hospital* thinks his sister is trying to give him heart attack, the way she is nearly falling from bed all the time... 00:56:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:34 beach: you were talking a while back about recent research wrt efficient fexprs. You may or may not have given me links, but I have lost them by now. Do you have them handy, by any chance? 01:04:37 sykopomp: john shutt's kernel programming language. 01:05:26 pkhuong: thanks :) 01:05:38 -!- hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has quit [Quit: hugod] 01:05:53 booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:10 Oh, right. Fexprs. I'd forgotten about that. Thanks! 01:08:09 On the SBCL front, "Unexpected success: debug.impure.lisp / (UNDEFINED-FUNCTION BUG-353)" on my latest x86-64 build. 01:08:38 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:08:51 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:08:55 Corresponding change building on x86, which would put the x86 test results to two unexpected successes and two expected failures. 01:08:56 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 01:09:23 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 01:09:27 -!- _dgd [~dgd@34.104.233.166.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:12:02 "What we see is that AllegroGraph is now more than half of our business, so in that sense you could say AllegroGraph is a new core." 01:12:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 01:14:00 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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it has 170% completeness.... 03:38:01 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:42:00 Phoodus [foo@174-22-192-228.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:43 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:57:18 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:24 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:04:07 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:04:53 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.154.237] has joined #lisp 04:08:55 Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:08:56 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:59 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 04:20:51 slava [~slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:55 jsnell: aroundp 04:21:40 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 04:21:40 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 04:24:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh7JJgwENBM new lispy game video 04:24:49 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:03 hey dto! 04:25:06 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:29 hi p_l|hospital :) 04:35:37 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:38 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:38:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39:17 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:40:02 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:34 at least some people are working on cool projects, like games... not on boring web stuff :P 04:45:14 anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:23 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.120.32] has joined #lisp 04:49:35 right now, I haven't managed to get even a single line of code of what I wanted to work on today, but I already switched DB access lib... 04:49:56 TehShrike1 [~TehShrike@76.85.171.148] has joined #lisp 04:50:02 *stassats* is tossing bits 04:50:13 is there any clever way to change endianness? 04:51:02 Does anyone know where I might find some major-ish open source projects written in Lisp? Google was surprisingly unhelpful (directing me to lots of projects devoted to improving Lisp in some fashion) 04:51:13 -!- TehShrike1 is now known as TehShrike|Home 04:51:29 stassats: there's something in SBCL 04:51:29 minion: maxima? 04:51:30 maxima: Maxima is a GPL'd Common Lisp mathematics application for computer based algebra (an implementation of MIT's Macsyma system). http://www.cliki.net/maxima 04:51:31 Perhaps not major-ish 04:51:37 (rotate-byte) 04:51:40 Just actively developed by at least a dozen developers, I suppose 04:51:53 And as widely used as possible, y'know 04:51:57 TehShrike|Home: look at the above 04:52:31 Interesting 04:53:19 TehShrike|Home: due to various reasons, outside of Maxima and I think Axiom, there is a big shortage of big open source projects in Lisp that aren't libraries. We are small community and our projects tend to be either commercial, private or research-related which for some reason makes it harder to find :P 04:53:29 minion: ACL2? 04:53:30 ACL2: ACL2 (A Computational Logic for Applicative Common Lisp) is a theorem prover for industrial Applications. http://www.cliki.net/ACL2 04:54:10 ah, ACL2 04:54:39 Are many web sites/apps built on Lisp? 04:54:51 maybe also stumpwm 04:56:00 TehShrike|Home: there are some webapps written in CL, some hobbyist sites and probably various internal projects - I recall drewc working nearly exclusively in CL for his web-related work and he doesn't complain about lack of contracts 04:56:50 minion: Common Music 04:56:50 Common Music: Common Music (CM) is an object-oriented Music composition environment. http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Music 04:57:26 I'd like to get into Lisp, but I'd prefer to do it by reading and then gently poking at some open-source project run by more experienced devs 04:57:32 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:57:52 given how I tend to unearth some rare and esoteric languages from time to time, I suspect there might be a significant amount of desktop apps written using one of the commercial implementations (and possibly CCL on mac), since it isn't always easy to notice. 04:57:56 they're plenty of tools and libraries 04:58:26 I'd prefer something with a lot of UI, since that seems to be where the real drudgery and challenge often lies 04:58:48 there are the mcclim apps.. clouseau, gsharp.. 04:59:06 TehShrike|Home: you can also work on CL GUI toolkits ;-) 04:59:13 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 04:59:17 climacs, closure 04:59:27 Heh 04:59:37 clim-chess, oh well 04:59:37 TheShrike: http://mcclim.cliki.net/Application 04:59:38 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 04:59:44 btw, dwim.hu is related to some big government-related project done in lisp (a webapp used internally) 04:59:54 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:00:38 adeht: good link, thanks 05:01:56 Climc looks promising 05:03:12 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:03:28 Looks like it's a one-developer read-only project, though 05:03:39 p_l|hospital_ [~bc9391bf@gateway/web/freenode/x-vgrzjyvueljfbigt] has joined #lisp 05:04:05 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:11 read-only how? 05:04:11 Ah well. I've got some more drinking to get done tonight. Thanks for all the links! 05:04:16 -!- p_l|hospital [~bc9391bf@gateway/web/freenode/x-mjsxxcomnptrycev] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:04:19 One dev sharing his source code 05:04:25 No contributions from other people in the trunk 05:04:48 you could be the first ;) 05:04:56 Ideally to get started learning, I'd like to get involved in a larger ongoing project, like Pidgin :-P 05:04:58 I could 05:05:05 I daresay I might give it a try 05:05:10 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:05:26 also, work on one of the mcclim apps may imply work on mcclim itself.. which should be interesting 05:05:36 *p_l|hospital_* wishes that packages using closer-mop will finally start using shadowing... 05:06:07 While I'm here, does anyone have any favorite reading material for someone interested in learning Lisp who has only used more "average" programming languages like C++ and PHP before? 05:06:12 p_l|hospital_: what do you mean? 05:06:23 minion: tell TehShrike|Home about pcl 05:06:24 TehShrike|Home: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:06:28 minion: tell TehShrike|Home about pcl 05:06:40 Excellent. 05:06:44 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:47 Thanks much! 05:06:50 minion doesn't like repeating himself ;) 05:08:09 TehShrike|Home: have you worked with opengl? 05:08:41 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:08:51 p_l|hospital_: so, what needs to be shadowed? 05:10:32 p_l|hospital [~bc9390bf@gateway/web/freenode/x-wyiquzhuytoaydlu] has joined #lisp 05:10:52 -!- p_l|hospital_ [~bc9391bf@gateway/web/freenode/x-vgrzjyvueljfbigt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11:04 back 05:11:30 stassats: I meant that, for example, loading cl-perec shouldn't mean that I have to deal with several name-conflict errors 05:12:00 how is that related to closer-mop? 05:12:35 stassats: closer-mop is the dependency most often involved in my experience :/ 05:12:45 since it contains defgeneric etc. 05:13:09 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:13:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13:18 boyscare1 [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:22 i still don't see how closer-mop causes name conflicts, i'm using closer-mop as well 05:13:56 stassats: probably you load it differently... 05:14:11 -!- boyscare1 [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:14:19 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:29 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:14:48 i have :depends-on :closer-mop and (:use c2cl) in a package 05:15:17 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 05:18:00 stassats: cl-perec uses :cl and :closer-mop 05:18:14 troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:00 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 05:20:06 i tracked it down to computed-class 05:20:09 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:08 -!- troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:08 Good morning! 05:22:20 awesome.. darcs changes | head --> Exception thrown by an atexit registered action: exception :: Darcs.SignalHandler.SignalException 05:22:45 so. sleepytime, good night beach :) (yes, it's almost 08:30) 05:23:39 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:24:00 p_l|hospital: How is your sister! 05:24:08 s/!/?/ 05:24:57 Doesn't symbol-value access let-bindings? What should this use instead? 05:24:58 (let* ((bas "goo")) 05:24:58 (symbol-value 'bas)) 05:25:08 bas 05:25:10 instead 05:25:23 symbol-value doesn't access lexical bindings 05:26:20 beach: sleeping atm :-) 05:26:42 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:28:00 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:28:20 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:27 stassats, thanks: is there something that does access lexical bindings? 05:30:40 -!- p_l|hospital [~bc9390bf@gateway/web/freenode/x-wyiquzhuytoaydlu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:31:12 nunb: Yes, the name of the variable. 05:31:33 (let* ((bas "goo")) bas) 05:31:53 there might be no lexical variables at the runtime 05:31:53 where can i find out more about this? I've run into problems before converting a received string into the value of the variable with the same name 05:32:26 Why do you want to do that? 05:32:33 Stick it in a hash table instead. 05:32:52 (it's for something that reads the tmpl_var bits from html-template and returns the lexical value of a variable with that name (or nil) using html-template::*value-access-function*) 05:33:26 are your lexical variables used for anything else other than lookups from your strings? 05:33:47 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:33:54 Phoodus: no 05:34:09 then as beach says, set up a hash table with string keys, instead of a set of variables 05:34:44 -!- undefn [~undefn@cpe-67-246-186-236.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:35:00 it's pretty much going to be the same cost anyway; the lookup from string -> symbol, vs the manual hash lookup 05:35:10 well, maybe, but it can be arranged that I do that separately. I guess I was trying to use a let form instead of a more complicated hash-table setup (syntax wise) 05:35:27 if you had everything as special variables, you could pull that off 05:35:37 yeah, but I'd like to understand once and for all how to convert a string to a symbol, and then access the lexical binding for the value 05:35:38 but I don't see that as being a very "clean" way to do things 05:35:41 (is there a good ref. for that?) 05:36:01 intern converts a string to a packaged symbol. make-symbol converts a string into an unpackaged symbol 05:36:13 I see, so special vars would work with symbol-value (again, any part of clhs etc. that I'd be able to read?) 05:36:28 but those also retain the case of the original string, whereas a literal foo in your source (like your variable name) will end up as MY-PACKAGE::FOO in uppercase 05:36:29 Yes, I grokked both those. 05:36:45 yeah, I tried messing with readtable-case, but no dice 05:36:49 so that wouldn't match (intern "foo") even from teh same package 05:37:02 hence, just use string keys in a hashtable. It's much more contained 05:37:26 Phoodus, ok, can do. 05:37:45 I recall PCL had something about this, but not quite enough (will go check). 05:37:58 I believe you can consider lexical variables to be like C-style stack variables that lose their identity. They're just scope entries. 05:39:14 Hmm, on looking at it again, using a hashtable would mean passing its value along to the lookup fn. 05:39:48 instead of (let ((var val)) ...) do (setf (gethash var table) val) 05:40:05 well, where "var" is a string in the hashtable version 05:40:47 so what programs are you gents running? 05:40:49 one other thing to keep in mind is that symbols never garbage collect, as long as their package is intact 05:41:06 so even though you might be using the same names over and over, if there's any variation in the keys you might leak memory 05:41:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/98262 are the fns I use and the annotation is how I expected it would look: 05:41:43 I could change the let to a hashtable and pass it along somehow (special var) to the access-function 05:41:54 (though I think some CLs actually try to GC or never truly create provably abandoned-after-use symbols) 05:42:01 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:42:24 Phoodus, re let->hashtable it's just a bit uglier, that's all. I guess I could macropaper over it though (and it would involve symbol->string conversions) 05:43:30 yes, you could make a (define-template-lookup ("foo" (bar baz)) ("blarg" (barf bort)) <&body>) that macroexpands into a let which creates a new hashtable, setf's all the var->val mappings, and runs the body 05:43:38 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:43:39 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:43:46 (playing around with the parens of course) 05:45:42 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:45:56 Phoodus: that's what I'll do then, thanks. 05:46:18 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:42 np 05:47:53 -!- nuntius [~nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:28 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:48:39 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:52:05 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:34 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-240-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:03:22 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:05:42 p_l|hospital [~bc93929c@gateway/web/freenode/x-tcyqxzqvjrmfhffh] has joined #lisp 06:07:42 zoe [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:59 -!- zoe [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:08:04 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:12 ... i just somehow lost entire custom file... (for emacs) 06:11:53 *stassats* read as "custom life" 06:12:30 close enough for truth, I think 06:12:48 suddenly nothing worked 06:13:10 *stassats* defined a VOP for BSWAP 06:13:17 now endianness conversion is much faster 06:13:46 stassats: cool 06:14:21 can you pastebin your code? 06:14:24 for the VOP. 06:15:56 sure 06:18:30 stassats pasted "swap-bytes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98263 06:19:26 -!- p_l|hospital [~bc93929c@gateway/web/freenode/x-tcyqxzqvjrmfhffh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:20:17 cool 06:21:57 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-melacbmnczzzeoqg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:23:13 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.48.157] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:23:31 pared with sb-vector-io, i can read unsigned-byte-32 vectors 3 times faster than portable code 06:24:01 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:24:50 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.182] has joined #lisp 06:25:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:25:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:28:22 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-111-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:32:50 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:53 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 06:33:29 konr [~konrad@187.106.48.157] has joined #lisp 06:34:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:35:25 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 06:37:29 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:38:41 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:41 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:51 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 06:44:09 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 06:47:48 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:50:01 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 06:51:22 p_l|hospital [~bc938c91@gateway/web/freenode/x-ggwwsqxdckbocgtv] has joined #lisp 06:51:22 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:51:42 ... flaky connection :/ 06:53:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:54:21 oh, i used the wrong function, it's actually 6 times faster 06:55:50 btw, the shadowing issue was actually caused by mad ASDF file 06:55:59 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:56:17 compute-class.asd is complete bonkers 06:56:18 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 06:57:01 who the hell needs MOP inside defsystem? 07:00:43 minion: memo for francogrex: There's a win32 COM library based on CFFI available - http://github.com/quek/cl-win32ole 07:00:43 Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 07:01:01 -!- slava [~slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 07:02:41 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.120.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:03:36 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:04:43 this could allow for nice Windows.Forms UI 07:05:33 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.120.32] has joined #lisp 07:07:24 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 07:09:57 p_l|hospital_ [~bc938c91@gateway/web/freenode/x-pzaknnwpjofjfqzl] has joined #lisp 07:10:07 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 07:11:08 -!- p_l|hospital [~bc938c91@gateway/web/freenode/x-ggwwsqxdckbocgtv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:12:34 Ogedei [~user@e178220002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:48 rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:19 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Absquatulandus sum] 07:18:11 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:20:28 -!- p_l|hospital_ is now known as p_l|hospital 07:26:37 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:27:54 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-16-26.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:28:26 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-13-165.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:28:54 Does anyone know the state of cl-elf and/or who wrote it? 07:28:55 Is it possible in CL, without using implementation specific hooks (although a package that does so portably is fine) determine if a symbol represents a dynamic variable? 07:29:05 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:29:08 "describe" well tell me, but that seems a poor choice for programmatic use. 07:29:13 clhs boundp 07:29:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm 07:29:48 not exactly the same thing, though 07:29:50 No. 07:30:01 I've got an unbound that describe tells me is special/dynamic. 07:30:15 I'd like to be able to know that programmatically. 07:30:22 (nothing crazy, just a documentation genrator) 07:30:44 nothing standard 07:31:03 *nod* 07:31:03 THanks. 07:33:18 well there's a portable kludge you can write for fun but probably not want to use :-) 07:33:31 (#+sbcl sb-cltl2:variable-information #+ccl ccl:variable-information '*) portable enough for me 07:33:49 rlpowell: Functionality for that almost made it into the standard, so most implementation provide CLTL2 environment access 07:34:37 #+allegro sys:variable-information, etc. 07:35:11 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:35:36 Hmm. Not *quite* worth writing a library to do those calls. Yet. Good to know, though, thanks. 07:36:20 btw, PREPL makes for quite fine console REPL 07:37:04 p_l|hospital, hospital - what happened? 07:38:14 tic: taking care of lil. sister 07:39:00 (continuation of long story and multiple hospital visits) 07:39:48 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:09 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75463b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:18 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:44:30 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:44:43 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:47:36 p_l|hospital, alright. 07:48:15 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:51:19 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:20 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:59:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:19 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:01:25 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.191] has joined #lisp 08:01:29 merl15 [~merl@188-22-172-7.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:04:35 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:17 LinkFly [~linkfly@94.158.187.24] has joined #lisp 08:08:50 Who wrote the bintype library? Was it frodef or deepfire or someone else? 08:09:25 minion: binary-types? 08:09:25 binary-types: Binary-types is a Library for accessing binary files with fixed bit-length code-words. http://www.cliki.net/binary-types 08:09:41 frodef wrote this 08:10:03 Thanks. 08:10:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 afk 08:11:07 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has joined #lisp 08:13:12 The bintype library and the elf library that uses it could use some care and documentation. 08:13:34 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 08:13:35 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 08:13:35 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 08:19:49 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:21:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:22:09 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:24:33 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:25:07 laynor_ [~ale@109.78.31.242] has joined #lisp 08:26:03 licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 08:26:41 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:27:23 -!- laynor [~ale@109.78.28.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:30:08 -!- licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has left #lisp 08:30:39 licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 08:30:44 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:49 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:36:19 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f665666-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 08:37:29 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:38:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:39:16 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:42:56 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:43:55 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:44:04 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:52:44 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:54:07 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:58 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:55:49 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:53 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:58:17 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:01 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:16:26 -!- laynor_ [~ale@109.78.31.242] has left #lisp 09:18:54 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:19:04 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-111-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:43 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 09:27:58 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 09:29:03 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30:18 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 09:32:41 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:33:22 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:34:52 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:35 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:42:24 laynor [~ale@109.78.31.242] has joined #lisp 09:42:53 is there a way to filter out all the swank garbage from the debug backtrace in slime? 09:43:54 it should be only at the bottom of a backtrace 09:44:03 does it still distract you? 09:44:13 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:22 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:45:56 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:46:19 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:27 -!- LinkFly [~linkfly@94.158.187.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:59 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:55:59 nurv [nurv@83.231.89.249] has joined #lisp 09:56:10 Hi. 09:59:10 stassats: kind ok, I'd prefer to have a way to toggle it, but it's still ok :) 09:59:17 hello nurv 09:59:37 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:00:37 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:00:53 I'm using both arnesi and fiveam in my code. Wwhich is the "correct" way to load them with asdf? Should I enclose the calls to asdf:oos in an eval-when form? 10:01:27 *laynor* is forgetting all his lisp 10:02:14 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:29 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 10:03:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:06:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:09:39 laynor: Do you see swank frames on the top of the backtrace? 10:10:09 pbalogh [~pbalogh@ool-457c851b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:52 I do want to rewrite sldb so it has more of those --more-- like things, including for swank-frames on top and on bottom 10:11:09 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:14:06 Joreji [~thomas@79-241.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:14:39 tcr: i think you proposal to normalise slime buffers is a good one. In fact, i didn't use slime-selector very much. 10:15:03 can't find a sensible key for it. 10:15:31 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:15:40 Well I suggest you come up with a patch then :-) 10:16:37 tcr: yeah, having more of those --more-- things would be great :) 10:20:03 stassats: do you use ubuntu? I'm trying to compile emacs from git but it complains about "configure: error: Package gtk+-2.0 was not found in the pkg-config search path." 10:20:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:20:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:20:44 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:20:46 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@ool-457c851b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: pbalogh] 10:21:00 tcr: you need to install libgtk2.0-dev 10:21:19 yeah just figured 10:21:30 and i'm not using neither ubuntu, nor gtk emacs 10:25:22 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 10:26:43 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:29:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-241.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:32:59 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:37:09 -!- delYsid is now known as MarioLang 10:38:22 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:40:04 Annoyance of the day: stupid restrictions what's allowed as argument to :report in restart-case 10:41:10 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:42:51 -!- MarioLang is now known as delYsid 10:45:51 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 10:46:25 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 10:51:02 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:41 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:52:47 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:53:32 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:55:42 Joreji [~thomas@79-241.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:56:15 Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:33 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.162] has joined #lisp 10:58:51 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:58:58 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:00:37 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178220002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:03:36 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:56 is there a way to compare two arrays so that #(1 2 3) is equal to #(1 2 3)? 11:04:03 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:04:27 clhs equalp 11:04:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equalp.htm 11:05:29 stassats: thanks, I had totally forgotten about equal p -_-' 11:07:41 laynor: if it's vectors, rather than multi-dim arrays, you can also use (every #'= v1 v2) 11:08:20 (depends on your situation, perhaps you also need a prior type check) 11:08:51 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 11:14:13 tcr: it's just for unit tests in this moment :) 11:14:49 well in that case be aware that equalp compares case-insensitively 11:14:53 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:15:26 rt.lisp defines a case-sensitive-equalp 11:15:43 I have a package P that redefines some symbols in the CL package. So I shadow those symbols in the defpackage that creates P. I also export the same symbols from P. Now I wasnt to write a test package TP that uses all of CL except what is exported in P, and that also uses P. How should I define the TP package? 11:16:45 (defpackage TP (:shadowing-import-from P foo bar) (:use P CL) 11:16:58 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 11:17:45 Hmm, OK. I need to figure out a way to avoid repeating all those symbols then. 11:17:48 stassats: Thanks. 11:18:22 <_3b> (defpackage TP #.p:+shadowing-import-from-P-clause+ ...) ? 11:18:37 yeah, my thoughts were along those lines. 11:18:44 <_3b> either that or p:defpackage 11:19:24 <_3b> or reexport the rest of CL from P, and don't :use CL 11:20:03 (defpackage TP (:shadowing-import-from P . #.(loop for symbol being the external symbol in 'p collect symbol)) (:use P CL)) 11:20:24 Ah, that's nice! 11:20:29 s/external symbol/external-symbol/ 11:21:39 stassats: Can you also figure out how to avoid repeating them in defpackage P both in the shadow and in the export options? 11:22:04 Oh, I can use #= and ## for that. 11:22:24 Excellent! Thanks! 11:23:13 Er, no I can't. 11:23:35 also, (defpackage TP (:shadowing-import-from P . (package-shadowing-symbols 'p)) (:use P CL)) if all shadowed symbols are exported 11:24:14 beach: why? use a list and . 11:24:21 yeah, just realized that. 11:24:41 Thanks a lot. 11:25:01 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 11:25:21 I use #.(let ((foo-symbols '(....) ...)) `(defpackage ... (:export #:bar ,@foo-symbols) (:shadow ... ,@foo-symbols))) 11:27:13 stassats: Would that have to be #.(package-shadowing-symbols 'p) ? 11:27:22 sure 11:28:02 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 11:28:52 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34:13 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:34:24 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:07 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:35:47 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:39:01 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:41:54 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:43:57 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:40 -!- p8m [~dmm@mattli.name] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:54 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:57 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 11:48:12 G'morning all. 11:50:56 -!- gavino [~g@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52:47 hmm, read-byte doesn't like file-stream declaration for some reason 11:57:42 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.154.237] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:58:01 are inline declamation in sbcl per file? 11:59:44 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 12:00:45 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: reboot] 12:02:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:02:43 stassats: no. 12:04:07 then why read-byte is inlined? it's (declaim inline) (defun read-byte ...) ... (declaim notinline) in code/stream.lisp, and then it's declaimed inline in code/load.lisp 12:04:16 and it stays inline and causes troubles 12:04:42 it should redeclaimed not-inline somewhere in load.lisp 12:04:49 Last declaration processed wins? 12:05:03 pkhuong: that's what i'm just doing 12:05:22 tantan2 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 12:05:48 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:06:10 or only declared inline where it matters... 12:09:24 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 12:09:50 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 12:11:15 read-byte is inlined, and then there are some (declare (optimize (speed 0))), i don't understand this 12:11:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-241.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:11:51 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 12:12:43 that extra declaim might have been a maybe-inline, once upon a time. 12:15:28 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 12:21:42 what's the equivalent to /dev/zero on windonws? 12:22:54 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:01 dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:19 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:23:21 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:27:02 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:28:17 nyef: if you had to structure an (C) assembler for runtime code specialisation, how would you do it? 12:37:05 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:37:08 Runtime code specialization how? 12:38:05 I mean, there's gluing together canned instruction sequences, and then there's a full on assembler like our VOP code generators. 12:39:07 And things are different if you're on a variable-width-instruction architecture from a fixed-width-instruction (sane) architecture. 12:39:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:43:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:44:22 -!- rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:28 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:38 rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:46:34 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:55 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:48:24 pkhuong: That said, provided you're targeting a fixed-width architecture, have a look at paste 98211. 12:52:10 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:02 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.68.45] has joined #lisp 12:53:41 -!- rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:53 rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:04 -!- rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:26 -!- p_l|hospital [~bc938c91@gateway/web/freenode/x-pzaknnwpjofjfqzl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:55:49 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:31 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:56:41 nyef: x86 :\ 12:57:12 more like VOP than stringing templates one after the other. I'll want to at least perform regalloc. 12:57:45 And I'm open to a pre-processing phase 12:58:02 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.120.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:31 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 12:59:30 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:59:31 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-172-7.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:59 merl15 [~merl@188-22-164-180.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:03:24 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:29 hi, i'm running hunchentoot on sbcl/amd64 and all worker threads get stuck in sb-thread:get-mutex, backtrace follows : 13:04:38 billitch pasted "hunchentoot-sbcl-amd64-get-mutex" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98268 13:06:19 Blkt [~user@net-93-144-124-3.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:07:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:08:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:34 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 13:10:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.28.82] has joined #lisp 13:10:22 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:11:46 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:08 There's a filter function in scheme, but what its equivalent be in CL? 13:12:21 *would 13:12:23 clhs remove-if 13:12:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 13:12:35 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:12:36 hehe, thanks stassats :) 13:12:47 and there is a filter function in scheme? 13:13:16 Yep 13:13:27 how is it called? 13:13:36 e.g.... 13:13:43 guile> (filter even? '(1 2 3 4)) 13:13:45 (2 4) 13:13:57 r5rs filter 13:13:57 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for filter. 13:14:14 seems it's a guile thing then. 13:14:44 pkhuong: Actually, I'd probably do something very similar to VOPs, and have a convention that allows for similar macrology to what I have for PPC. 13:14:55 there is in r6rs standard library 13:15:03 jtza8: actually the pendant is remove-if-not 13:15:09 pkhuong: Such as possibly just standardizing the code output pointer. 13:15:55 tcr: Yes, but I feel rather daft for forgetting it's name =P. 13:16:05 *its 13:17:06 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-16-26.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:17:24 netytan [~netytan@85.211.63.239] has joined #lisp 13:18:17 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:20:51 pkhuong: Better, though, might be to define the emitters in something that gets processed down to C. 13:21:10 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.163] has joined #lisp 13:21:20 Something a little less limited that the C preprocessor, at that. 13:21:27 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:52 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:13 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 sorry, got disconnected 13:26:34 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-027.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:27:02 anyone having a clue on what could be happening to my hunchentoot ? 13:27:38 billitch: Not really 13:27:48 could it be a problem with sbcl threads/mutexes on amd64 ? 13:28:01 I run hunchentoot on Ubuntu+AMD64+SBCL with no problems 13:28:32 I assume you are on linux? 13:29:33 nus- [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 13:30:03 -!- nus- [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:30:29 Guthur: yes, ubuntu 9.10, sbcl 1.0.29.11.debian, hunchentoot 1.1.0 13:30:39 nus-- [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 13:30:46 billitch: Try the latest SBCL 13:30:55 Hrm... Okay, linkage-table entry creation is obviously wrong on PPC, but it doesn't seem to -break-... 13:31:15 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:31:36 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-144-124-3.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:36 Though I worry about reloading a saved core. 13:31:58 -!- tantan2 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:59 Guthur: ok. are you using pinning or compile sbcl from source ? 13:32:13 I usually compile 13:32:34 Oh wait actually in the earlier versions I am not sure if threading was on by default 13:33:16 I believe it is on by default now for linux, but either way I usually add it to the custom config file anyway. 13:33:30 Someone will need to confirm the default threading state 13:33:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:09 Yeah, looks like update-linkage-table uses a dohash, which effectively means random order, doesn't it? 13:34:44 ikki [~ikki@189.139.94.173] has joined #lisp 13:35:00 billitch: If you have SBCL already then compiling a new SBCL is pretty straight forward 13:37:59 billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:56 If you have a threaded SBCL and don't want to use threads, you might be able to get away with removing :sb-thread from *features* before compiling any libraries. 13:39:16 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:34 nyef: Would threads not be sort of mandatory for a webserver like hunchentoot? 13:40:23 tantan22 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 13:41:03 I don't know. I know they're not mandatory for araneida. 13:44:50 Blkt [~user@93.144.124.3] has joined #lisp 13:45:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:28 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:50:14 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:51:46 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86 13:56:08 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:56:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:56:27 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:01:45 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:08:00 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-221-116.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:15:09 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:15:14 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:18:30 How is :from-end t usually implemented on lists? 14:19:53 The obvious solution would be recursive, but that might take up quite some stack space. 14:20:36 Another solution, which is probably a bad idea in the presence of threads, would be to nreverse the list, do the thing, and then nreverse it again. 14:21:24 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:22:07 A third solution I can think of would be to cdr down the list while creating a reversed copy of it, and then work on the copy. 14:24:29 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-109-236.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:07 Guthur: from latest's sbcl INSTALL, threads are enabled by default on x86[-64] Linux only 14:26:56 billitch1: I suspected as much, have you installed the latest version now? 14:27:53 Oh, I know! If the recursive function is local, the compiler could detect that the full function-call protocol is unnecessary and optimize stack space as well. That would probably be more efficient than copying the list. 14:27:58 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:10 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:34:03 -!- stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:12 stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 14:34:20 beach: SBCL has something like that last, though it may not be as optimal as it could be. 14:34:24 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:34:51 nyef: Because the compiler can't optimize the local function call? 14:35:02 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:35:05 define local 14:35:25 near jump? 14:35:32 lexical? 14:35:33 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:35:56 Because the local call still takes stack space and, on some architectures, still has to build a full frame and store the frame pointer and return address in canonical form and location. 14:36:18 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-83-44.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:26 I see. 14:36:44 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:31 billitch2 [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:33 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:37:51 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:18 On X86 it should be possible to generate pretty good code for that. 14:39:04 x86 is one of the architectures that always do the full frame and standard passing location things. 14:39:18 Hmm. 14:39:33 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 beach, alternatively, don't store data sequences that frequently need :from-end t access in lists? 14:40:21 nus--: That option is not available to someone implementing the language, I'm afraid. 14:40:32 -!- nus-- is now known as nus 14:41:57 amaron_ [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:42:55 beach: clhs 3.6 14:43:31 (re: threads modifying) 14:43:36 Yeah, thanks! 14:45:55 Regarding the deadlocking that I've been seeing, it seems to be due to my usage of *after-gc-bug* 14:46:08 and output involves threads in slime 14:46:19 *after-gc-hook* I mean 14:48:06 hmm trying to understand the fixme comment in post-gc 14:50:26 -!- plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:52:13 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:59 freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.225.232] has joined #lisp 14:54:02 marioxcc [~user@200.92.179.167] has joined #lisp 14:55:12 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.225.232] has left #lisp 14:55:43 -!- amaron_ [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:55:51 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.89.249] has quit [] 14:59:22 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 15:00:27 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:00:35 jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.61.223] has joined #lisp 15:02:10 -!- billitch2 [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:03:10 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.28.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-94-36-229-191.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:12:29 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:01 <_6502_> hello... i'm writing as an exercise a toy lisp interpreter; is it acceptable to lazily back-patch a list during eval to store the result of macro expansion ? 15:13:51 not in my book of acceptable things 15:14:45 <_6502_> the strange effect is that if i look at the definition of a function it may change depending on if the function has been called or not 15:15:17 <_6502_> for example i can define a function that uses "cond" and after calling it i see it is composed of a chained "if" sequence 15:16:06 As an implementation technique, it's a bit weird. 15:16:55 For an MFTL, though, it's not horrible. 15:16:58 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:17:13 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:33 <_6502_> MFTL ? 15:17:45 My Favorite Toy {Language,Lisp}. 15:17:55 <_6502_> oh... ok :-) 15:18:20 <_6502_> an alternative could be keeping a separate hash table for expanded forms 15:18:33 Or accepting the doctrine of "minimal compilation". 15:18:56 <_6502_> but then that would make impossible to patch a function after is defined 15:18:56 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:19:10 <_6502_> you mean expanding the macro every time ? 15:19:58 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 I mean expanding all macros upon definition. 15:21:58 (Function definition, that is.) 15:22:19 <_6502_> hmmm 15:22:26 Yes, this requires a code-walker. 15:22:31 <_6502_> not only that 15:22:49 <_6502_> requires that a macro must be expanded even if it will never be used 15:23:01 Yes. 15:23:13 <_6502_> so requires all macros to be "expandable" 15:23:25 Yes. 15:23:38 At least, the ones which will be expanded. 15:24:10 <_6502_> i thought that only actually evaluated macros shoudl be expanded... a sort of "macro short circuit" 15:26:45 That seems like a "cute" optimization to me, of the sort that is completely overridden by other effects. 15:27:17 Minimal compilation is also the gateway to full compilation either to bytecode or to native code. 15:28:07 Which will tend to give an execution speedup over a straight-up interpreter. 15:28:19 <_6502_> yeah... indeed i already started a bytecode compiler and it is expanding all macros during compilation 15:28:37 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:28:52 <_6502_> so macro expansion should be done at defun... hmmm 15:29:25 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-0-158.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:29:26 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:44 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:27 <_6502_> the nice thing is that the core will get rid of macro expansion completely 15:30:40 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:31:07 <_6502_> and also of a bad hack i had to use to forbid macros expanding to vectors instead to lists 15:31:25 <_6502_> instead than to lists 15:31:27 There are lisp systems out there which implement EVAL in terms of compilation. 15:31:45 my macro expands into a number 15:32:00 <_6502_> a number would be no problem in my implementation 15:32:15 <_6502_> only problems are vectors 15:32:47 <_6502_> because of memory representation... macro expansion is the only case in which bytes are copied (to do the backpatch) 15:33:11 <_6502_> but probably the whole idea of backpatching is silly indeed 15:33:50 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-73-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:34:16 <_6502_> thanks for destroying my code... :-) 15:34:42 nipra [~nipra@115.118.223.46] has joined #lisp 15:35:06 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:35:48 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:36:31 <_6502_> however... if I think to things like "(and x (eq (car x) 'foo))" ... it is important for car x not being evaluated if x is NIL 15:36:55 <_6502_> wrong example... but you get the idea 15:37:12 <_6502_> strange that the same isn't important at the macro level 15:42:00 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-027.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:43:14 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 15:44:58 fatblueduck [~chris@cpe-76-87-212-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:32 dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:46 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:48:39 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:48:42 Good evening! 15:49:09 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@cpe-76-87-212-79.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 15:51:17 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.63.239] has quit [Quit: netytan] 15:52:38 _6502_: it can be 15:54:20 <_6502_> but the CL standard states that all macros should be expanded, right ? 15:54:34 no actually it doesn't, only as result of compilation 15:54:58 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:59:09 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:59:15 <_6502_> I think I understand... an implementation could actually produce native or byte code even without explicitly compiling, and it could do so using a lazy macro expansion, but must expand them all if compilation is requested 15:59:20 <_6502_> correct ? 16:00:49 <_6502_> but then an implementation may stop when processing code that contains macros that cannot be expanded even if no expansion was requested because of evaluation ? 16:01:16 to your first question, not quite correct 16:01:31 it does not necessarily need to expand them at compilation time 16:01:41 Guthur: I have installed SBCL 1.0.37 and still have the same problem 16:01:47 but it is not allowed to expand them later 16:02:24 stettber` [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 16:02:31 -!- stettber` [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:47 And that's for Common Lisp. If you're doing an MFTL, you can ignore such constraints. 16:02:49 <_6502_> jsnell: yeah... i understand the difference; it can skip expansions if it can prove that it cannot be reached 16:03:30 billitch: Are doing anything in the dispatch/handlers yet or just trying to get hunchentoot to basically work? 16:03:42 stettber` [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 16:03:42 -!- stettber` [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:13 <_6502_> clisp stops with an error on "(defmacro foo () (/ 1 0)) (defun bar () (foo))" even before calling bar 16:06:33 <_6502_> so this answers my second question, I suppose 16:07:17 Guthur: i found what's causing the lock, i was launching an acceptor and right after that trying to connect to it (with drakma) 16:07:39 Guthur: I don't understand why it would cause a deadlock 16:08:23 Guthur: and i'm pretty sure it did not on x86 16:08:32 Oh, umm nice to know 16:08:38 I haven't tried drakma ye 16:08:43 yet 16:11:19 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:12:13 billitch, Well done on getting it sorted 16:12:28 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 16:13:31 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:44 Guthur: well i have other things to do but this looks like a bug to me, either in hunchentoot, drakma, or sbcl 16:14:13 or OS, or hardware 16:14:18 Hunchentoot seems pretty solid when accessed from a browser 16:14:55 stassats: yes, I wish I was on bsd 16:15:31 stassats: and sparc64 =) 16:15:33 The only real significant difference between mine and yours, on face value, is drakma 16:15:56 Guthur: of course but you would have to run my code to compare 16:16:00 So the naive conclusion would be that that is the source of the issue 16:16:11 Oh true it could be your code, hehe 16:16:51 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 16:17:09 true but i just start an acceptor and do a http request on the accessor's url. let me clean it up 16:18:09 So it should just be going to the default dispatcher 16:22:29 -!- Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:24:14 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.179.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:08 marioxcc [~user@200.92.179.167] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 fe[nl]ix: ping 16:28:35 luis: pong 16:28:55 that cffi-allegro patch you applied the other day. Did you test it? 16:29:03 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:08 luis: no. is it broken ? 16:30:14 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:30:15 I think so, yeah. 16:30:36 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.179.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:06 marioxcc [~user@200.92.179.167] has joined #lisp 16:31:50 It's no evaluating the SIZE var at macroexpansion-time. Also, I think it might break stack allocation. I'll see if I can write a test for that. 16:32:34 Why is it that I keep coming up with small patches to longstanding things while in the code freeze period? 16:33:26 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:02 haha 16:34:26 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.61.223] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:35:43 BTW, SISCOG has a bunch of Software Engineering positions open until May 15th. 16:35:53 Little things, like minor backtrace improvements when calling undefined functions on x86oids, or a possible overrun screw in linkage-tables on ppc, or... 16:36:59 Oh well. Early 1.0.38, I guess. 16:37:16 luckily you use git 16:37:24 Indeed. 16:37:27 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 16:37:41 Makes managing such a patch series a lot easier. 16:39:47 you might be able to automate it (version.lisp-expr nonwithstanding) 16:40:45 but then shell hacking isn't that fun.... 16:40:50 Attempting to automate applying such patches was the goal of my last foray into using Perl (to fix up version.lisp-expr), when I discovered that I no longer knew enough perl to be dangerous. 16:41:17 pity CL is so weak at that kind of thing 16:41:55 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-75-48.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:51 perl -i -pe 's/(?<=^")((?:\d+[.]){3})(\d+)(?="$)/$1.($2+1)/e' $CVSDIR/version.lisp-expr 16:45:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:47:46 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has left #lisp 16:48:56 I can sense the danger 16:49:27 I fail to be able to parse that one-liner. 16:50:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:36 ak70 [~ak70@85.232.201.215] has joined #lisp 16:50:37 ... Wait, that's for the version-bump for a release, isn't it? 16:54:01 fe[nl]ix pasted "cleanup for with-foreign-object on Allegro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98278 16:54:07 no, it's the commit bump 16:54:19 luis: what do you think of paste #98278 ? 16:55:18 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:00:14 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-164-180.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:18 Joreji [~thomas@79-087.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:04:28 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:05:49 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:06:27 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-176-201-108.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-087.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:08:34 Hmm in Lisp you often use symbols to denote states, however I find myself to want to have inheritance of state. Basically I want to say that a state is an end state but I want to give it a specific name for debugging purposes. Sure, I could use empty classes, but that seems pretty heavy-weight. 17:09:06 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-201-129.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:24 plists? 17:09:50 Well that has the disadvantage not to print 17:10:00 tcr: (defun end-state? (sym) (member sym '(end stop finis woahboy))) 17:10:19 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.48.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:28 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-14-95.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:10:42 dlowe: don't forget kingdom-come ! 17:11:29 that doesn't mesh all that well with CASE 17:11:47 and results in convoluted code 17:11:47 tcr: write STATE-CASE 17:12:25 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-73-169.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:13:43 tcr: #.(defparameter +end-states+ '(end stop finis woahboy)) (defun end-state? (sym) (member sym +end-states+)) (case state (#.+end-states+ ...) 17:15:33 That's a lot of ugly mess for someone who uses ? instead of -p 17:15:44 :-P 17:19:42 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:19:59 hello 17:22:16 (intern "-P" :keyword)? 17:23:19 mik8y` [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 17:25:33 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.34] has joined #lisp 17:25:47 hello ost 17:36:31 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:36:49 well, I'm not fond of case for that very reason 17:37:35 cond-eql, cond-equal, and cond-equalp seem like they could be useful macros 17:39:31 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.90.240] has joined #lisp 17:41:59 dlowe: you mean case-eql, etc... ? 17:42:42 case already uses eql :p 17:43:48 (cond-eql state (1 ...) (2 ...) (3 ...) (t ...)) 17:44:30 <_6502_> isn't case using eq ? 17:44:44 clhs case 17:46:09 <_6502_> talks about "identity" 17:46:14 <_6502_> i thought that meant eq 17:46:23 the spec says the "same" which in the glossary is said to be eql if non is mentioned explicitly 17:46:24 case is using eql 17:46:50 <_6502_> These macros allow the conditional execution of a body of forms in a clause that is selected by matching the test-key on the basis of its identity. 17:46:51 and i'm not reading backlog 17:48:29 _6502_: EQ in Common Lisp is a bit wretched, it's allowed not to work on fixnums and characters 17:49:03 actually any number 17:50:03 <_6502_> i know... and it's the same in my little toy; i was confused by that reference to identity in the general description, the later it's better explained 17:50:31 <_6502_> the later => later 17:52:14 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:48 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:55:15 -!- mik8y` [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:15 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:49 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:16 -!- ak70 [~ak70@85.232.201.215] has left #lisp 17:56:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: be back later] 17:56:54 <_6502_> dinner time, later and thanks for the explanations 17:59:25 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:48 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.90.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:03 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:00:05 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.90.240] has joined #lisp 18:00:44 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:19 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:05:04 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:05 undefn [~undefn@cpe-67-246-186-236.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:19 hi. how can you convert a string to a keyword? 18:17:28 undefn: (intern "string" :keyword) 18:19:00 thank you 18:19:44 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:19:52 You may want to upcase the string as well, or not 18:19:57 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:10 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 18:20:10 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082E926.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:25 i see, i was just looking at that 18:21:59 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F45C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:25:41 undefn: fwiw, there's make-keyword in alexandria---which does the above but may be a little bit more concise 18:26:18 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 18:26:18 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 18:28:22 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-240-31.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:35:03 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:35:06 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 tcr: thanks, will check out 18:36:10 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:01 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:03 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 18:37:39 benny` [~benny@i577A1278.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:23 -!- benny [~benny@i577A25AF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:08 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:09 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:47:45 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:50:51 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:51:37 -!- Blkt [~user@93.144.124.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:51:39 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA4E46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:54:40 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:09 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6901.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:55 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:59:20 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:34 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 19:01:49 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:03:53 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:06:32 nurv [nurv@83.231.81.72] has joined #lisp 19:06:42 Hi. 19:06:46 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:00 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Absquatulandus sum] 19:14:45 Anyone here have SBCL running on a sparc handy? 19:15:18 (Or mips, alpha, or hppa, for that matter?) 19:16:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:16:07 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:21:40 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:50 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:25:29 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 19:30:49 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:59 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:00 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:37:24 nyef: not handy, I'm travelling, but I have a bunch of sun and sgi gear back at the office. 19:38:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:21 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:48 a good implementation with native threads on SPARC64 would be godsend... 19:39:50 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:40:05 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:22 netytan [~netytan@85.211.63.239] has joined #lisp 19:40:35 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41:22 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:37 I just want to know if (defun foo (bar) (declare (type (integer 0 0) bar)) (ash bar 57)) throws an error or not. 19:43:16 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:52:15 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:04 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:55:25 nyef: I suppose it shouldn't. 19:55:32 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:55:36 francogrex [~user@27.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:59:22 beach: No, it should define a function, not throw an error. 20:00:11 That said, it throws an error on ppc, and my current theory as to why suggests that it will throw an error on a short list of other platforms. 20:00:30 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:30 (Said short list being every other non-x86oid platform.) 20:00:46 well, I have a little-endian mips here, but I doubt I'll manage SBCL into it... 20:01:06 little memory constrained 20:02:38 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:03:18 *schme* guesses something blue and black for the memory constrained mips. 20:03:45 ? 20:03:54 I was thinking wrt54gl :) 20:04:17 nope, something more powerful than that ;-) 20:04:27 Oh my. 20:04:31 <_6502_> (type (integer 0 0) bar) states that bar must be 0 ? 20:04:42 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-107-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:58 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:15 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:05:43 schme: it's an Asus WL500, iirc, with USB2.0 etc. 20:06:01 _6502_: yes. 20:06:48 p_l: maybe you just hook up an external harddrive and set up some gigabytes of swap to test this :) 20:07:27 schme: it would probably grind itself to halt due to constant thrashing :P 20:07:34 sbcl: (defun cons (se1 se2) (cons se1 se2)) does that mean some things are just not worth reimplementing? 20:07:50 schme: and it happens that it is my router to net 20:08:15 p_l: Yeah.. I was considering doing some oddities to get swap on my router here.. but not worth it :) 20:08:24 Maybe I would never get online again! 20:09:09 udzinari: the magic of open-coding 20:09:14 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 20:13:30 I think that should be a required part of any compiler course. Realizing how that works is a total moment of enlightenment. 20:14:21 <_6502_> i don't understand what you guys are talking about... doesn't that looks a bit like "(defun fact (x) (fact x))" ? 20:14:39 udzinari: It means the compiler recognizes `cons' in the body as something special, and doesn't generate a call to the `cons' function. 20:14:45 Sure, the difference is that the compiler does not know how to inline fact, _6502_ 20:15:17 <_6502_> but i am defining *another* cons... no ? 20:15:36 No you're defining a funcallable function 20:16:03 _6502_: You still need the cons function around, in case someone does (apply mumble whatever) and the value of mumble happens to be the cons function. 20:17:15 <_6502_> in my implementation cons is a symbol, and the function value of cons is something ugly like #M0x804c130:0 20:17:55 beach: thanks, now I just have to find out what it really does at that specific moment.. and in which file of sbcl source. 20:18:06 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:51 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Quit: Esto se acabooooooo ...] 20:20:23 udzinari: src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp 20:21:57 tcr: Danke schön! 20:21:58 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.94.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:23:39 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:30 <_6502_> in another toy lisp i wrote in python indeed a lot of logic was in eval itself, so what evaluating for example (if ...) was going to do was "hardwired" in the eval function 20:25:19 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-246.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:25:20 _6502_: That is entirely reasonable. Some operators are considered hard-wired (special operator in CL). 20:25:39 _6502_: But it shouldn't be "a lot". 20:27:32 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 20:28:01 _6502_: CL does a good job of defining many syntactic operators as "macros" because it is possible and reasonable to implement them as such, and so the number of special operators are kept to a minimum. 20:29:12 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 20:30:29 <_6502_> beach: in the toy lisp i'm implementing now i only have one special case in eval... if the function object is one of that ugly things, then that is a pointer to C code that will get access to the unevaluated form; all special operators are implemented that way 20:31:13 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:31:51 <_6502_> beach: then everything else is built up in lisp ... the very first thing defined being defmacro 20:32:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:51 <_6502_> beach: but i already start with quite a few symbols defined with functions implemented in C (like cons); still cons in the system is a symbol like any other 20:34:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:21 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.63.239] has quit [Quit: netytan] 20:34:42 _6502_: I know how exciting it is. I did something similar in 1981. 20:36:09 But it wasn't a toy. It was used commercially by the company I worked for. 20:37:04 And it wasn't C at the time, but Pascal. 20:38:10 <_6502_> beach: I am sort of angry that no one told me about lisp before... I also started programming in 1981 (on apple ][) but only asm for a few years... 20:39:49 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:31 <_6502_> beach: wouldn't be a nightmare to code a lisp system using pascal ? C looks a lot more reasonable for this kind of stuff (you can use it as a portable assembler) 20:42:16 ikki [~ikki@189.247.82.9] has joined #lisp 20:42:45 anyone used the Gabriel's Lisp Benchmarking Suite before? i want to know how it works and if it's useful? 20:43:17 _6502_: I see your point about being angry. 20:43:44 _6502_: Pascal was a great improvement over Fortran at the time. 20:44:57 C must have existed, but Unix was not widespread in industry so C wan't either. 20:45:08 *wasn't 20:46:27 I would have written this thing in MacLisp, but my company abandoned Multics in favor of VMS, and there was no way to justify buying a Lisp system for VMS. 20:47:28 It doesn't matter much though, because I got a lot of experience implementing Lisp systems, and in fact I sold an improved version to the company after I quit. 20:47:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:48:25 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:42 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:05 <_6502_> beach: that's strange... i would have expected that after the first one a lisper would start implementing systems to generate lisp systems ;-) 20:50:17 _6502_: The level of the knowledge of people in industry at the time was a lot worse (if you can imagine) than it is nowadays. 20:51:45 beach: how come you weren't using Lisp Machines in the 80s? :) 20:51:54 <_6502_> beach: you're the right person for a question about implementation; why i keep reading about copying in garbage collection ? for cache coherence ? can't cells just be collected and reused in free lists without moving things around ? that's what I do in my toy 20:52:46 _6502_: copying GCs have advantages and disadvantages 20:52:54 luis: The company I worked for had a global policy that everything had to be written in Pascal. I wrote a Lisp system in Pascal to get around that. Nobody ever understood what I was doing. 20:53:07 _6502_: for instance, they virtually eliminate fragmentation. 20:53:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:54:00 <_6502_> beach: about the level today I'm not so sure. I've heard a nice definition of today method of teaching... it's not bottom-up (the one i like) and neither top-down ... it is top-up :-) 20:54:17 they also only look at objects in use and not at dead objects. 20:54:30 saves work if your heap contains alot of junk 20:54:31 _6502_: As luis says, the standard argument is fragmentation, but as the research of Paul Wilson shows, fragmentation is not a problem in practice, and was thought to be one just because of the bogus statistical models that the theoreticians used in the past. 20:54:31 _6502_: another interesting property is that the amount of GC work is proportional to the amount live objects and not total heap size. 20:55:40 _6502_: There is nothing wrong with the teaching, at least not where I am. The problem is the decision-makers of industry. 20:55:49 p_l: Thanks again for your help yesterday. Atomic-incf and atomic-decf worked. And it let me get rid of a hairy macro and 30 or so lines of ugly code. :) 20:56:40 saikat [~saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:56:48 rvirding: That's not unique to copying collectors. Paul Wilson describes a "fake copying" collector with the same property (but I think the original proposition is not due to him). 20:56:56 christop` [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:36 luis: It is not clear that this particular fact is an advantage. 20:57:40 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:58 -!- christop` is now known as christoph_debian 20:58:22 Paul Wilson, is that the guy that wrote that great GC survey? 20:58:36 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-89-246.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:58:43 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:48 Indeed. I had the privilege to spend a year with his research group in Austin. 21:00:34 He is an incredibly smart guy. 21:00:58 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.68.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:02:06 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:25 beach: he should write a "Multiprocessor GC techniques" survey next :) 21:02:33 <_6502_> (defun cons (s1 s2) (cons s1 s2)) overflows the stack in clisp :-) 21:02:50 luis: I think he is no longer working in this domain unfortunately. 21:02:54 <_6502_> sbcl keeps working fine even after (defun cons (s1 s2) (cons s2 s1)) 21:03:09 beach: I'd imagine GC research gets dull after a while 21:03:13 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:03:22 luis: Never! :) 21:03:51 _6502_: That definition depends on the compiler having special knowledge of cons. Implementations in which it is just a function will have problems. 21:03:57 beach: it is an advantage if you only have a small amont of live data 21:04:05 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:04:12 <_6502_> yeah. I understood... i was just curious :-) 21:04:17 <_3b``> _6502_: add a (declare (notinline cons)) to make sbcl stack overflow too :p 21:04:27 luis: Besides, he also did interesting stuff on compressed virtual memory. 21:04:27 with a mark-sweep you look at all data 21:04:45 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:53 luis: He designed the system for that on the Apple Newton (which never became a commercial success). 21:05:01 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:05:26 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:40 <_6502_> my thought was that if i am garbage collecting then either most data is live or i'm doing this very infrequently 21:07:06 rvirding: You are right, but with a copying collector you need twice the memory, and it turns out that "compensates" for the disadvantages of mark-and-sweep. Have you read your Lins & Jones book lately? 21:07:17 <_3b``> actually, i guess sbcl does TCO, so it still doesn't overflow, just gets stuck in a loop :) 21:07:20 by the way, can anyone refer me to some material on the topic (compiler design)? I found something on ocw.. 21:08:09 _3b``: hmm, why does it get stuck in a loop? 21:08:25 udzinari: The book by Muchnick is very complete, but unfortunately, he uses an archaic algorithmic language. 21:08:29 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 21:08:41 <_3b``> luis: if you define it as a recursive function (by avoiding open coding it) 21:09:07 udzinari: I recommend you read that book and then implement the algorithms in Lisp. When you are finished, let me know! 21:09:25 beach: not lately no, it was a while back since I last read it 21:10:00 rvirding: The claimed advantages of copying collectors turned out not to be true. 21:10:08 _3b``: oh I missed the previous bit where _6502_ is redefining CONS. 21:10:27 I found they worked very well, besides being simpler 21:10:31 <_6502_> i'm waiting for my copy of lisp in small pieces... was a good buy ? 21:10:39 rvirding: In addition, they screw up the cache on a modern machine. 21:10:54 beach: thanks, I guess sicp is also good idea, no? I am thinking where to go after pcl & ansi common lisp.. 21:10:58 _6502_: beach will certainly tell you it was a very good buy 21:11:18 -!- TehShrike|Home [~TehShrike@76.85.171.148] has left #lisp 21:11:28 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:11:58 _6502_: It's an excellent book, and if you buy the English version, you get the additional benefit of a value-added Frendh-to-English translation done by a true professional. 21:12:01 brookeGarcia [~brookeGar@dsl-156-144.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 21:12:11 I sill have an affinity for them 21:12:12 :-) 21:12:46 I will make it even worse and say that I like reference counting. :-) 21:12:48 rvirding: Sure, and some people refuse to see the benefits of Lisp, because they have an affinity for Java. 21:13:05 wouldn't know, never tried java 21:13:25 rvirding: But as most Lispers know, that doesn't make it true. 21:13:59 udzinari: I would go PAIP if I were you. 21:14:19 oh, I can see the benefits of lisp alright 21:15:16 rvirding: I am trying to tell you that you should recognize that your behavior wrt GC resembles that of people who don't see the benefit of Lisp. If you don't see the similarity, then you're in trouble. 21:15:20 <_6502_> lisp is like lego :-) 21:15:34 <_6502_> i mean.. programming is like lego, but with lisp it gets even better 21:16:15 Mebbe lisp is the plastic you make lego pieces from. 21:16:23 my behaviour? 21:16:36 schme: Too deep! 21:17:06 rvirding: sticking to copying GC despite factual arguments. 21:17:11 all I am saying is that copying gc has some benefits 21:17:34 ah well, at least I am not alone my bad ways 21:17:34 rvirding: All I am saying is that it might not have if you read the litterature. 21:17:52 rvirding: that I will agree with. 21:18:16 <_6502_> mark/sweep is dead simple to implement, that's why i used that 21:18:23 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:18:26 and I have read the literature 21:19:42 rvirding: I am sorry, but as a teacher I am getting really tired of getting argued against by people who refuse to read current research, and yet find it appropriate to argue with me in favor of something that research shows is not valuable. You may not be like that, but it sure looked like it for a while. 21:19:55 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:38 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:44 rvirding: Yet you claim not having read Lins and Jones. 21:21:08 I said it was a long time since I read it 21:21:13 I suppose it is possible to be a GC expert without having done that, but that would be very unusual. 21:21:28 rvirding: Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. 21:21:50 and I oppose you saying that copying gc is never a good thing, it does depend on context 21:22:10 beach: what about multiple separate, possibly with different contexts, small generations with copying of longer lived objects? 21:22:15 Did I say that? If so, I appologize. 21:22:17 schme: I liked the lego comment 21:22:25 Guthur: (: 21:22:31 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:23:04 anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:04 p_l: That's excatly my plan. A copying (sliding) GC in the nursery, and a fake-copying for the rest. 21:23:19 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:23 you at least gave the impression 21:23:37 beach: I'm curious to know if there is any research on real time + GC ? 21:23:38 rvirding: I must then apologize. 21:23:40 yet I have seen some people here say that lisp is not modular.. 21:24:06 schme: there's Azul's JVM and its GC 21:24:14 p_l: With the nursery being per-thread, and no pointers from big-thing to nursery being allowed. 21:24:28 <_6502_> schme: is that nick for scheme ? I've got the impression that scheme doesn't like macros too much. Lisp without macros is nonsens in my opinion... 21:25:05 <_6502_> it's like lego where you're forbidden to put pieces togheter :-D 21:25:08 schme: Yes, there is. I haven't looked at it for a few years, so I am not up to date. 21:25:48 beach: actually, while I'm not thinking of cheney-style copying collector, using code that doesn't depend on conservative GC has certain extra usage, where bigger memory use might be preferred in exchange for speed. 21:25:53 _6502_: It sounds to me like a character from the lord of the rings. 21:26:02 fe[nl]ix: I will look into that thanks. 21:26:19 _6502_: No. It is a nick from random banging letters on the keyboard :) 21:26:38 beach: Great though.. I'll look what amazon pops up for me. 21:26:59 for example, on NUMA architectures, keeping read-only data in multiple copies at multiple addresses in physical memory (which might not necessarily be supported by OS) 21:27:53 p_l: You may be right. I think a conservative GC for Lisp is very strange. 21:29:46 -!- mle [~emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:02 -!- nipra [~nipra@115.118.223.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:34:07 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75463b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:05 prxq [~mommer@f051169021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:11 hi 21:35:13 beach: also, there are other reasons to use a copying collector (or, let's call it, compacting GC) 21:35:58 beach: for example taking advantage of faster addressing (very architecture-specific, I know) 21:37:19 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.34] has joined #lisp 21:37:36 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:37:54 personally I'm wondering if maybe L4-style design philosophy wouldn't be useful for GC. That is, make it deliberately unportable, using every dirty trick in the machine etc. 21:38:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:56 export a common API and implement GC outside of the lisp itself, maybe? 21:39:29 p_l: I'd welcome a CL implementation written specifically for Core i7 CPUs 21:41:08 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: meh ..] 21:42:14 fe[nl]ix: I'm afraid i7 isn't all that special in that manner. 21:42:37 Outside of adding support for new opcodes and scheduling tweaks, I'm not sure if you could get anything special 21:43:05 (of course, said scheduling and cache tweaks could bring lots of performance) 21:44:03 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:44:11 at this point I guess I should cue in my little complaint on GC for multicore architectures. 21:44:34 Go right ahead! 21:45:10 fe[nl]ix: otoh, an implementation with special runtime support written specifically for Linux, another one for win32/win64, another one for L4, another one for VMS, another one for OSX etc. would be much more useful IMHO :) 21:45:25 LLVM actually puts some support for that 21:45:41 well, the complaint is that if I cons the way I want/need to, then I have a single core on one impl, and like 60% of the full 8 cores on two others that I've tried. 21:46:02 interestingly, the one that gives me one core beats the ****** out of the other ones, in terms of performance 21:46:17 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:46:50 fe[nl]ix: for example, the OSX one might use Autozone, despite the fact it's conservational, because it would blend nicely with rest of the system (and it has full non-interrupting multithreaded GC) 21:46:56 that was really it. It would be nice to have a GC where you can have 8 cores consing, and you'd get the same GC performance as on one processor 21:47:19 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:47:28 prxq: problematic and might require careful coding of the end-user code as well 21:47:54 p_l: I think java has a GC that works like that 21:48:06 beach: btw teacher in what? 21:48:10 lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:43 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:48:52 rvirding: I teach "informatique" at the university of Bordeaux. 21:49:02 aha 21:49:20 prxq: JDK7 has a new gc called G1, which uses many small "boxes" (generation-like construct) with lots of tuning and much more precise data on when a thread attempts something... 21:49:28 that would be computer science? 21:49:51 rvirding: Not quite. It's a bit more practical than that. 21:50:21 beach: I see french use the same blasted word... 21:50:36 p_l: it is better than CS. 21:51:00 beach: depends. I find it way too generalized most of the time. 21:51:58 especially when it becomes a job/position name. 21:52:06 p_l: so the multicore era is uppon us, and GC-free languages will win again?? 21:52:07 rvirding: I see my mission as training our students to improve productivity in industry. The big problem is that industry has no clue as to how their productivity could be improved, and in fact, actively opposes such measures. 21:52:23 I read an interesting article about why CS is more appropriate term than informatics 21:52:27 p_l: That's not a problem here. 21:52:36 beach: perhaps it doesn't want productivity increase 21:52:47 prxq: No, I think FP and certain specialized langs will rape us ;-) 21:52:56 tcr: Maybe it is, when the training program really *is* CS. It isn't here. 21:53:18 they do but they don't know how to get it, and whom to listen to to get it 21:53:21 prxq: It doesn't. I want and society pays me to make them want it. 21:53:53 *p_l* points to latest Erlang versions coupled with Sun T2. It isn't fast. That shit is *scary*. ;-) 21:54:39 p_l: scary in what sense? 21:54:41 p_l: ?? 21:54:45 prxq: How did you reach teh conclusion that GC-free languages will win? 21:55:21 prxq: scarily parallel. 32 execution contexts in parallel on a simple one socket box. If you don't need floating point, it's bloody fast. 21:55:59 beach: if you have 128 cores, but your GC limits you to 8, then you have a problem, I'd say 21:56:00 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:56:15 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 21:56:19 prxq: Why would your GC limit you to 8? 21:56:32 then you would get a different gc which doesn't limit you 21:56:37 prxq: GC-free languages have even bigger issues with that, actually, unless you try to code in shared-nothing model. 21:56:49 p_l: yes and it works 21:56:49 beach: latency, synchronization, I don't know. That is what they do nowadays. 21:57:12 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:16 erlang gc isn't limited to 8 cores 21:57:26 rvirding: did I mention that Erlang is among my favourites, even if I currently spend time with CL? :) 21:57:30 p_l: maybe, although they are used to quite some pain, and put up with that. 21:57:35 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:57:39 prxq: Sorry to hear that. There is research to support efficient per-thread GC, so I don't see why it should be limited to 8. 21:57:43 purr purr tell me more 21:58:09 <_3b``> beach: but are there resources to actually get it implemented anywhere? :) 21:58:49 I said 8 just to say a number. On the 8 core toy I have at work, I'd say I can use six max with the GCs that are around. 21:59:02 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:16 a lot depends on the style of code you want to run in parallel - that's where languages like Haskell and Erlang win big. 21:59:29 _3b``: I'm afraid considerations like that are not my job. If industry doesn't want to put the money down to become efficient, they deserve losing out to India, Vietnam, and China. 21:59:32 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:59:56 p_l: immutable data solves a lot of problems 21:59:57 -!- francogrex [~user@27.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:00:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:01 beach: if you look carefully, those loosing to India, Vietnam, and China, are not "industry". 22:01:15 _3b``: While I'm sure there was a lot of new stuff, quite a lot in computing is actually "nihil novi sub sole". A quite efficient parallel systems existed long time ago, it's just that threads were cheap and quick, and people didn't mind getting dirty. 22:01:16 european and US employees perhaps 22:01:29 prxq: fair enough. 22:02:38 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:00 -!- dalkvist_ [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:03:09 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:03:24 prxq: But industry should be trying to become more productive in order to remain competitive, and there is no movement like that either, other than outsourcing, which everyone is doing. 22:04:58 beach: why should it try to do that? It can remain competitive due to lock-in and a million related mechanisms, which is exactly what it is doing 22:05:46 My main concern, though, is to convince my students that their mission is not to "get a job at all cost" but to "apply tools and techniques they were taught at the university in order to improve productivity of industry". 22:06:05 prxq: Yep. 22:06:08 hear hear! 22:07:42 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 I can't say we really fail, though. We half half a dozen companies in the region that are prosperous and that are based on what we taugh them. 22:08:16 beach: unfortunately business doesn't always want to go that way to improve productivity 22:08:32 rvirding: So we have to force them. 22:08:39 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:08:52 beach: sounds great. 22:08:54 from past experience they tend often to believe the latest guru and his silver bullet 22:09:05 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:06 at least until the next guru comes along 22:09:12 rvirding: that has a lot to do with the youth of the field 22:09:21 this will end some day 22:09:26 rvirding: Unless they get a significant influx of graduates from my teaching programs. 22:09:35 <_6502_> we're still in a barbarian age :-) 22:09:37 beach: and I find it great that you keep that up! 22:09:50 no in this case it was ignorance by management 22:09:52 prxq: Thanks! That's my job! 22:10:12 beach: I recall at least two companies that would be praising you and trying to have you declared a saint for that, due to their issues with "let's churn Java codemonkeys" curriculums. 22:10:37 rvirding: Management has surprisingly little influence on techniques and tools of a team that is determined to do it their way. 22:11:13 -!- saikat [~saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has left #lisp 22:11:21 yes, but then the team must really be determined and powerful enough to get their own way 22:11:52 HG` [~HG@xdslfy157.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:05 it also needs some form of backing or past wins so it won't be chopped 22:12:20 p_l: I will always resist the temptation of my department turning into a Java-monkey supplier. Unfortunately (in this respect), my 4-year mandate as the director is coming to an end in 11 or so weeks. 22:12:44 rvirding: Easy. I have done it. I know that it can be done. 22:13:05 rvirding: No backing required. Just great results. 22:13:06 yes I know it can be done, but not many groups can do it 22:13:15 rvirding: I did it. 22:13:18 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:37 well, congratulations 22:13:49 it's easier to do with startups, I'd say :) 22:14:02 I know many groups who haven't, and some who have 22:14:09 rvirding: Thanks. But I am also teaching my students how to do it. 22:14:58 Most of them don't listen of course. But some 10% of them do. 22:15:14 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfy157.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:57 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:36 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:02 *p_l* will fully admit that he often thinks he should have tried writing for profession, instead of CS. But that's maybe because I haven't had to deal with editors.... 22:17:45 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.34] has joined #lisp 22:19:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 22:19:25 p_l: Nobody in industry reads about fundamental stuff. They just don't have time to become more productive. Instead the listen to the latest crap from the latest gurus without having the capacity to determine that it's just that, i.e. crap. 22:20:43 yes, unfortunately it is so :-( 22:20:58 been on the receiving end of that 22:21:02 <_6502_> java is an incredible example 22:21:31 been banned :-) 22:21:33 beach: somehow it works. I wonder why, then. 22:22:26 p_l: When I was working in industry, we had a documentation service that I am still dreaming of. A professional would read all abstracts and determine whether I (and all my colleagues) might be interested. If so, he/she would photocopy the abstract and send it to me. I could then mark it in red and get a copy of the article. This was before Internet so things would be different today, but I have never since seen that level of 22:22:26 service. 22:22:42 prxq: What works? 22:22:50 beach: industry 22:23:04 prxq: because competition is just as bad. 22:23:31 prxq: But it's really a disgrace compared to other segments of industry. 22:23:32 prxq: my cynical view is that it works in spite of most management because of groups who feel/know they are doing the right thing and just keep going with it 22:24:28 this is both in the product and the method 22:25:05 beach: btw, I think I found solution to age old problem of "win32 gui", or at least a skeleton for one :) 22:25:08 But I am trying my best to start a Lisp-based software industry in Vietnam. Imagine the combination of cheap labor and great technology! Everyone else would fail instantly. 22:25:59 beach: I have an alternative hypothesis: Industry is about selling a product. If one looked at the extreme example of audiophilia, one might conclude that the actual merits of the product are, well, let's say non-obvious :-) 22:26:05 p_l: Did I suggest this as a problem? I am still surprised people still use Windows. 22:26:26 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:34 trouble with technology like lisp is that it might have a higher threshold, especially if they have been trained in other languages 22:26:47 What else am I going to run IE6 on to access the corporate time-tracker? 22:27:16 prxq: Mature industry is about counting seconds. They really need a competitive advantage. Startups are a diffent story. 22:27:24 *rvirding* says anyway enough for me tonight 22:27:34 good night everyone 22:27:35 beach: counting seconds? 22:27:41 beach: I don't find Windows to be a problem in itself (other than people keeping XP on life support). But COM/OLE might be a "get free from jail" card for people who want to write apps for it without commercial implementations :-) 22:27:48 good night rvirding 22:27:54 rvirding: That's not a trouble with the technology, but with the inferior traning of the people working in industry. 22:27:55 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:28:28 prxq: Yes, being more productive than competition. 22:28:30 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:07 beach: well, then maybe we do not have a mature industry yet 22:29:17 things are measured in hours and days. 22:29:19 (minimum) 22:29:33 sorry someone wrote me something just as I went off, can you repeat? 22:30:07 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:31 rvirding: That's not a trouble with the technology, but with the inferior traning of the people working in industry. 22:30:51 *training 22:31:15 <_6502_> beach: i think that the problem with training is more on the philosophy than on the tools... i keep seeing more and more graduates that just can repeat "it should be done this way ..." in a belated chorus 22:31:31 i sincerely question the view that there is any technical metric for success in industry. 22:31:50 industry is a lot about making things happen. 22:32:16 prxq: You must not have worked for mature companies like IBM or ABB. 22:32:24 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:32:28 p_l: There wasn't a viable alternative to XP for quite sometime, Vista was rightly ruled out by many corporations 22:32:37 It's a business. Your technical metric for success is "have you gone bankrupt yet?" 22:33:06 beach: I agree, but it is the people who do the work 22:33:27 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33:30 _6502_: Yes, but 10% of our graduates understand that this is not the right way. 22:33:33 *prxq* agrees with nyef 22:34:03 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:25 rvirding: Which is why I consider my job to be to supply better-trained people to industry. 22:34:51 let me correct the above. I don't think there is any purely technical metric relevant for success in industry. <-- that's what I think 22:35:00 Guthur: There wasn't really that many reasons to get rid of Vista... it was actually more about the crappy internal applications. When Microsoft released a book on code errors, they made a whole chapter on origins of "bug-for-bug" compatibility in win95 and made it available for free.... 22:35:00 Training is expensive though, the employee is not being productive while they are being trained but still costing money on top of actual training cost 22:35:14 good, but the problem is then making it so these people are allowed to use their better knowledge 22:35:20 And then employee retention is an issue 22:35:22 someone with a good marketing team, and the right strategy, can make a living off code written in BASIC 22:35:43 prxq: That's true. But that's because we haven't done the job of figuring it out. 22:35:46 prxq: Amen. (And you can do a -lot- of cool stuff with VB6.) 22:35:53 Training someone up to have them leave for a better paid position due to their increased worth is a great fear of companies 22:36:09 Guthur: Then Vista dropped a big chunk of bug compatibility code (though properly written apps from windows 1.01 will still run on win7 x86) 22:36:17 beach: of figuring what out? 22:36:28 Guthur: And such fear is short-sighted. "Hey, these people are -paying- me to learn cool stuff. Why would I leave?" 22:36:32 p_l: It was also the increased hardware requirements 22:36:36 prxq: The metrics. 22:36:56 Guthur: I haven't noticed it that much, compared to how bloated XPSP2 was 22:36:57 A lot of old office PC's simply would not run it effectively 22:37:03 this discussion is just making me despondent, so I am off 22:37:11 rvirding: Sleep well. 22:37:22 thank you, good night all 22:37:22 (Or whatever it is you're going to be doing.) 22:37:31 Guthur: also, you don't need to run all the glittery stuff (though it makes Vista actually faster due to GPU offload) 22:37:38 I'm off too, but it's because it's way beyone my bedtime. 22:37:38 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:37:45 beach: Sleep well, then. 22:37:50 Thanks 22:37:55 beach: night 22:38:09 seamus-android [~alistair@host86-178-203-169.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:33 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:38:33 nyef: re constant folding numeric types, look at my 1.0.30.2 patch. 22:38:41 -!- seamus-android [~alistair@host86-178-203-169.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:47 p_l: Then the other point is what did they have to gain by migrating. 22:39:02 For most corporations there simply was not net benefit 22:39:07 not/np 22:39:09 no 22:39:11 On another topic, can we persuade someone to fix the two :fails-on :sbcl package tests? 22:39:27 They're the only tests that fail on my current x86/linux sbcl tree. 22:39:46 (Well, modulo the run-program :inherit-stdin hang, that is.) 22:40:18 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:40:34 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:36 p_l: Anyway, personally I would rather work on *nix now. 22:42:29 Not because of anyway real 'stick it to the man' thing, but because I'm slowly getting more proficient with it, and finding it a more productive environment. 22:42:54 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:26 pkhuong: That's a neat patch. 22:43:30 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6901.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:44:14 Oh, lovely. Now I'm getting a test-hang on -profiling- tests. :-/ 22:44:44 nyef: left a comment, I think I know how to do it, except for float types in the XC. 22:44:58 alistair [~alistair@host86-178-203-169.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:05 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:11 Float types in the XC are a problem, plain and simple. 22:45:48 -!- alistair [~alistair@host86-178-203-169.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:45:57 Actually, it's worse than that. The cross-float-infinity-kludge also damages -integer- type derivation in XC. 22:46:17 *nyef* remembers finding that out when working on sbcl-os. 22:46:24 mm.. 22:46:35 We could implement soft floats (: 22:46:46 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:46 We could indeed. 22:47:04 There's also this paper on correctly performing abstract interpretation on ranges of IEEE float values with rationals. 22:47:10 And every time I suggest it, the comment is "slow, major effort, etc." 22:47:18 Ooh. 22:47:32 Including infinities? 22:47:40 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:07 considering they handle rounding correctly, I assume so; infinities are much simpler, after all. 22:50:04 Of course, the ultimate win would be cold-load CLOS. 22:50:20 that wouldn't fix broken host floats. 22:50:38 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.51] has joined #lisp 22:50:45 True, but I'm more thinking in terms of a more capable cross-compiler. 22:52:28 We don't need that much of CLOS either. 22:52:59 I think it's going to be a matter of "the more we have, the more we'll want". 22:53:28 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-75-48.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 22:53:33 Ugh. Bloody transient faults. The test suite just ran past where it crashed last time. 22:54:57 true. But something like GFs only callable at the end of boot (via some compile-time side-effect and codegen at the very end) and only structure classes. 22:55:38 That'd be a start, but I think I'd want real classes. 22:55:56 More immediately, though, I want a platform to pass the test suite without failures. 22:57:17 Or at least fail without aborting the whole file 22:57:32 There is that, but that's an incremental thing. 22:57:54 No, it should be -possible- to get a platform to pass all the tests. 22:58:13 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:58:26 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:43 And the thing holding it up is the two package tests that check that all of the symbols involved in a name-conflict within a single operation are signalled in one condition, not multiple conditions with pairs of symbols. 22:58:51 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:59:24 (The platform in quesion is x86, I have the patch for the undefined-function bug-353 failure ready to go in early next cycle. 23:07:00 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:08:16 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6901.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:05 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:08 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:14:18 pkhuong: mind if I ask what paper you were referencing earlier or, if you don't have a link handy, some search terms I might try with google? 23:14:26 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:47 Boeuf28 [Boeuf28@modemcable209.118-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 -!- Boeuf28 [Boeuf28@modemcable209.118-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:15:29 -!- licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:15:49 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.6] has joined #lisp 23:16:12 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:24 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:20:36 tsuru: An obvious first set of terms would be "abstract interpretation", "ieee", and "ratio". 23:20:41 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:59 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:25 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:24:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-56-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:12 nyef: thanks 23:26:00 mle [~emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:00 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051169021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:10 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:25 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 23:27:58 -!- _3b`` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:28:23 _3b`` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:55 fihi09` [~user@pool-96-224-162-207.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:32 billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:32 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:49 <_6502_> 1:30... sleeptime for me 23:31:55 -!- _6502_ [~andrea@dynamic-adsl-94-36-229-191.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+ssfe] 23:31:56 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-46-250.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:36:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:37 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:40 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:40:51 merl15 [~merl@188-22-168-61.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:41:14 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:42:21 Younder [~jthing@212.251.245.39] has joined #lisp 23:43:17 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:15 bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:22 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:25 Harag [~Harag@41.56.24.116] has joined #lisp 23:45:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:45:17 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:19 billitch [~billitch@dslb-092-078-129-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:49 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:48:35 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.163] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:50:31 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:50:44 seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:17 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:54:55 fihi09`` [~user@pool-71-190-66-26.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:38 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:42 -!- fihi09` [~user@pool-96-224-162-207.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:59:49 -!- bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]