00:04:34 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:05:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:06:20 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:06:26 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 00:07:04 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:10:19 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f665365-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:11:20 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:11:22 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:11:25 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.149] has joined #lisp 00:13:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:14:16 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:40 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:26 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-078-042-205-245.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:24:38 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:14 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:55 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 00:30:31 konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has joined #lisp 00:33:18 Someone please tell me that threaded ppc builds are not expected to work? 00:33:21 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:35:11 of sbcl? 00:35:22 Don't think so; they certainly didn't a couple of years ago 00:35:30 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:13 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:15 I was adviced to use openmcl if I wanted threads on PPC 00:36:44 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:36:54 -!- coyo|pingout [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ACTION closes window in a panic] 00:37:24 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:55 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:38:34 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:06 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:39:45 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:17 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:40:52 Fair enough. 00:40:56 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:13 I just happened to see some evidence that if they -were- enabled that they would be horribly broken. 00:41:27 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:42:07 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:09 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:38 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:43:18 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:49 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:44:29 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:32 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:00 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:45:40 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:11 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:46:46 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:46:50 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:50 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:22 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:47:36 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:48:01 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:33 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 00:48:39 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 00:49:18 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:28 *p_l* just advises CCL on Macs/PPC 00:49:43 palter 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nurv [nurv@83.231.16.191] has quit [] 01:04:21 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.184.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:04:56 MetalDust_zzflop [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:57 TR2N [email@89-180-184-178.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 01:05:31 -!- MetalDust_zzflop is now known as MetalDust 01:08:01 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 01:08:02 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09:59 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 01:12:57 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:03 gweetings 01:15:01 was there a JOIN utility in alexandria? 01:15:17 i wrote one, but we're already using alexandria and might as well read into it 01:15:46 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:15:55 (join separator &rest strings) 01:16:10 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 01:17:21 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-078-042-205-245.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:18:14 developer [~developer@187.67.1.254] has joined #lisp 01:18:16 -!- developer [~developer@187.67.1.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:04 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:35 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 01:19:41 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 01:19:41 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 01:21:50 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:22:36 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:22:56 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:22 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 01:26:37 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.179.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:48 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:28:40 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-159-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.211.60] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:28:58 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 01:29:02 -!- JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:29:16 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:29:20 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:31:22 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-159-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:31:52 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:57 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 01:32:23 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:34:23 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:34:26 anyone noticed problems with hunchentoot and current ASDF? 01:34:41 -!- saikat [~saikat@ppp-71-139-170-34.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 01:39:00 or rather, with alexandria. 01:42:51 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 01:42:51 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 01:45:41 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:35 so... I have an error that happens when I use SLIME, but disappears when it's not used... 01:48:06 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 01:49:20 nuntius [~nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:23 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:52:02 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:53 gavino [~g@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:09 Never an op around when you need one? 01:54:34 ok I heard that threads are a FAIL, and that user level microprocesses are a win, but where would I read about such? and what common lisp library provides user level microprocesses? 01:54:36 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 01:56:43 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:59 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 01:58:35 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:59:03 nyef: you mean you noticed gavino here? 01:59:39 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:59:40 hey d00dz 02:00:34 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 02:00:35 gavino: that kind of stuff requires implementation support - and the only one that really pullled this off is erlang 02:01:03 hm 02:01:22 look at http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-muproc/ or http://common-lisp.net/project/cleric/ 02:02:27 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:05:05 hm 02:05:38 do most lispers use bordeaux threads to make thier porgrams utilize 2+cpu? 02:06:06 either that or what's built in. 02:06:26 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06:28 multiple separate processes is another popular option 02:07:15 how many times gavino asked this question? 02:07:43 apparently not enough 02:08:03 nuntius: don't bother answering gavino, he's not interested in the answer 02:08:42 I am indeed 02:08:58 I am learning a litle more lisp. 02:09:06 I love how easy it si to define procedures. 02:09:15 either way, its nice to have answers in the irc logs 02:10:13 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 02:10:51 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-184-178.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:14:02 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@pool-72-64-103-214.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:22 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:41 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:14 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@pool-72-64-103-214.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:03 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 02:20:28 ContraSF [email@89-180-228-36.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 02:23:17 -!- ContraSF is now known as TR2N 02:24:21 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:54 nuntius: But the answers are -already- in the logs. 02:29:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:28 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:37:51 not really 02:37:59 I thank nuntius for answering. 02:38:18 leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:18 easier than slogging though logs 02:39:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:39:52 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 02:42:51 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:46:52 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@pool-72-64-103-214.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:02 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 02:50:06 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 02:59:37 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:02:11 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-179-187.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:02:39 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-88-162.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:54 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 03:04:36 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-68-237-97-217.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:03 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:07:00 Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has joined #lisp 03:07:40 -!- rabuf [~user@ip68-230-168-93.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:07:43 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:12:06 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:46 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:13:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:14:01 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:15:49 Good morning! 03:16:02 Morning! 03:16:48 Fruktsoda: You must be new here? 03:16:55 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 03:17:17 Yes I am! Thank you! 03:17:24 Welcome! What brings you to #lisp? 03:17:24 That was very observant! 03:17:50 Just to idle actually, and maybe learn something from you guys! 03:17:59 I'm got plans to learn lisp too! 03:18:01 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-29-204.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:05 That's why. Mainly! 03:18:05 #lisp, that's where all cool and hip guys hang out 03:18:13 Haha, I have figured! 03:18:17 minion: Please tell Fruktsoda about PCL. 03:18:18 Fruktsoda: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:18:44 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 03:18:59 I will type those titles down right away minion 03:19:01 Thanks guys! 03:19:07 No problem. 03:20:12 Fruktsoda: What's with the Swedish nick? 03:20:36 Just random acutally, you know the what it means? 03:20:41 *actually 03:20:48 I do, yes. 03:21:01 Carbonated drink with fruit flavor. 03:21:03 Well I like the Fruitsoda! 03:21:16 I figure your european? 03:21:27 Indeed! 03:21:29 France or England maybe? 03:21:53 I live in France (as you should see if you do a /whois). 03:21:53 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-20-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:08 Sure, but wouldnt that be cheating? 03:22:45 You probably consider using grep in the logs to figure out whether you had been here before as cheating. 03:23:14 Haha! 03:23:19 and here i thought beach has incredible memory 03:23:26 Me too, he really caught me! 03:23:45 stassats: You should know better than that by now. 03:23:45 I that i was alone performing those kinds of actions. 03:24:24 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-39-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:25:54 actually, it's not that hard to remember someone who said more than a couple of words 03:26:32 So theres alot of lurkers here I figure? 03:27:04 I believe so, yes. 03:27:37 Or, you can put it other terms. People know when they should and should not speak. I guess that makes more justice to everyone. 03:27:58 This seems like nice channel. 03:28:08 Very! 03:28:34 lurker #1 here 03:28:36 -!- brookeGarcia is now known as maden 03:28:56 Fruktsoda: A bit impatient with people who refuse to follow advice, with people who wast our time instead of reading a book, that kind of thing. 03:30:14 I'm kind off new to programming overall. I'm from the dark networkside. I know too speak when I've got a real question and when I did the homework (read the books)! 03:30:29 Fruktsoda could be also a creative misspelling of Fructose... 03:30:36 I think the points you made out, is a great way to ensure the quality of a channel. 03:30:37 minion: gentle? 03:30:38 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 03:31:12 Fruktsoda: If you are new to programming, "Gentle" is probably better than "PCL". 03:31:13 Fruktsoda: that's a good book with little background programming knowledge 03:31:21 maybe we should get a study guide out 03:31:38 Thanks alot! And the whole book for free? that's really a nice gesture. 03:32:09 minion: clqr? 03:32:09 clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 03:32:14 even for an "experienced" programmer, reading PCL, then skimming first few chapters of gentle, then concentrating on the applicative, recursive and imperative chapters would be great. 03:32:21 Fruktsoda: PCL is available for free, but i'm sure gigamonkey would be happy if you buy it 03:32:58 *gigamonkey* looks up and nods agreeably. 03:33:12 Hey gigamonkey 03:33:16 Yo. 03:35:12 It is a real curse being a programmer. It's impossible to use software without feeling, oh, that little feature isn't right; I should just write my own whole application. 03:35:53 reprore_ [~reprore@p4b216c.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:36:02 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36:07 Acutally that has been one of my fears for many years since i worked with alot of programmers and they always show those "symptoms" you mention! 03:36:20 gigamonkey: i patched three different xmlrpc clients in the last few days, before writing my own 03:36:33 Fruktsoda: gigamonkey is the author of PCL. 03:36:35 And with those symptoms comes those sounds - Ehrmmm - Hmfph 03:36:58 Oh! An honour gigamonkey. 03:37:24 Nice to meet you. 03:37:28 Likewise. 03:37:38 And while we're outing each other, beach is actually Swedish despite now living in France, if I recall correctly. 03:37:44 Or am I just making that up, beach? 03:37:48 honor? they must not be maintenance programmers then 03:38:06 gigamonkey: beach is vietnamese 03:38:10 Outinghour! 03:38:13 gigamonkey: Let me check my passport ... Oh, you're right! 03:38:23 ;-) 03:38:49 Xin chào, fusss! 03:39:42 beach: my terminal's unicode capabilities are < your patched up people's emacs with bidi and vertical script support 03:40:37 *stassats* has vanilla emacs 03:40:54 fusss: What, you are not using ERC? 03:41:17 beach: ssh'ed to my sandbox from work 03:41:45 couldn't be bothered configuring unicode in a vps 03:42:32 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 03:43:26 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-179-187.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:44:05 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-25-96.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:46:26 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 03:47:52 clhs delete 03:47:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 03:48:12 I found that page, er, interesting, because it explains `test' in two different ways. 03:48:30 They could have distinguished the names. 03:49:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:51:25 minion: memo for sellout: remember it's getting toward time to get your free CreateSpace print of your NaNoWriMo novel. 03:51:25 Remembered. I'll tell sellout when he/she/it next speaks. 03:52:27 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:55:37 Doesn anyone know where I can find out the history of CMUCL? In particular when development began. 03:55:57 http://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/cmucl-history.html 03:56:10 stassats: Thanks! 04:01:52 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:32 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Absquatulandus sum] 04:03:02 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:38 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:25 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:14 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:38 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:06:09 So the origins of SBCL are 30 years old. Interesting! 04:06:09 04:07:31 is there any noteworthy CL implementation that hasn't at least 20 years of history? 04:08:20 stassats: Probably not, depending on the definition of "noteworthy" of course. 04:08:40 abcl comes to mind 04:09:06 yeah 04:10:38 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:38 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:10:38 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:13:26 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:15:55 ECL perhaps? 04:16:06 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:16:47 ecl history traces down to KCL, Kyoto Common Lisp, from the eighties 04:16:52 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:52 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:16:52 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:17:01 when you start ecl you may see "Copyright (C) 1984 Taiichi Yuasa and Masami Hagiya" 04:17:10 Impressive! 04:17:21 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 04:17:59 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:18:05 stassats: abcl, xcl? 04:18:20 p_l: i mentioned abcl 04:18:28 i don't find XCL noteworthy, yet 04:18:35 gigamonkey: oh, so there are dead-tree copies of NaNoWriMo books for the authors? 04:18:37 (it doesn't work under slime) 04:23:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:26 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 04:26:26 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:27:28 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:27:56 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@pool-72-64-103-214.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:28:45 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:32:28 p_l: CreateSpace (the Amazon POD people) gave a prize to all NaNoWriMo "winners" of a free proof copy of their novel. 04:33:49 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:34:02 gigamonkey: nice 04:34:38 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:35:27 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 04:35:40 Of course I was too lazy to actually revise my novel at all (other than to tone down the highly pornographic sex scene I put in one night as a way of making my word-count quota.) 04:36:00 It'll be interesting to read it now, six months later. 04:36:50 is it like in programming? "what idiot wrote this paragraph?" 04:37:14 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:32 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:37:53 stassats: with creative writing, you get "who the hell ghost-wrote last two *VOLUMES*" 04:38:04 stassats: Dunno, haven't done it yet. 04:38:46 The few times I've had an ocassion to pick up PCL and read a bit, I've usually been pleased with what I've found. 04:38:58 (that is, btw, my stance on Harry Potter - the 5th volume was still good, but I don't think I touched 6th and 7th after first reading) 04:38:59 But that novel was total crap, so I don't expect the same. 04:40:11 -!- maden [~brookeGar@dsl-156-241.aei.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:41:17 You should write a novel about a man who writes books about programming. 04:41:40 And then there's a chapter when he writes a novel. 04:41:47 And then gets dissatisfied with it. 04:41:52 So he writes another novel.... 04:42:24 Hmm, I need a base case somewhere for recursion like this. 04:42:32 and then he goes mad and goes on killing rampage 04:42:52 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:43:07 Just throw in some gratuitous sex scenes and you'll have another Snowcrash. 04:43:20 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 04:44:23 stassats: I think you have what it takes to do NaNoWriMo. Mark your calendar for November. 04:44:24 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:17 good idea, i always wanted to write a novel 04:46:20 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 04:48:36 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49:18 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 04:50:06 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:50:30 It's definitely worth doing once. Not sure whether I'll do it again. Maybe. 04:51:33 Hmm. I'm thinking that rdf triples are actually a mistake, these days. 04:52:07 You'd be better off with pairs of s-expressions -- question and answer. 04:55:53 -!- nuntius [~nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:56:55 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:01:45 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02:39 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:03:57 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:05:14 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:43 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:05:46 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:46 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:05:46 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 05:07:54 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:16 is there some kind of "named hashtables" hack somewhere? 05:08:58 I want gethash to work with just an specific hashtable, not all 05:09:13 sorta of a hashtable with an accessor 05:09:50 just don't call gethash on other hash tables 05:12:20 fusss: you mean literally CL:GETHASH or could it be another function? 05:12:41 And are trying to avoid having to pass the hash table or to just make it an error if you pass the wrong one? 05:14:03 no, any other wrapper 05:14:18 yes, error on wrong hash-table 05:14:48 (defmethod get-hash ((table (eql :symbol-table)) (value node-type)) ..) 05:15:39 fwiw, this is for the sugarcrm wsdl, which itself makes fairly peculiar engineering decisions 05:16:04 (it's like a sql interface over soap, except table definitions are sent with every query response) 05:17:16 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:00 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 05:19:01 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:19:43 -!- anekos [~anekos@pl030.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has left #lisp 05:20:12 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:26:54 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:40 victory is mine 05:30:52 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-255-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:31:16 a hashtable slot inside a class 05:31:38 why not inside a structure? 05:32:59 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 05:33:16 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:48 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:37:13 -!- amaron 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-!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:55:18 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:57:37 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 05:59:02 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CD57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:59:41 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:19 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:00:20 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:27 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:05:35 konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has joined #lisp 06:09:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:12:14 fiveop [~fiveop@g229114116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:12:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:13:07 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:13:37 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:39 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:14:40 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:18:35 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:19:36 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:04 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.249] has joined #lisp 06:20:51 -!- nasloc__ [tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:21:39 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:21:39 timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 06:22:43 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:24:00 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:24:07 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 06:25:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:42 konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has joined #lisp 06:27:07 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-gcunarqrwjhucsmk] has joined #lisp 06:27:30 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 06:27:34 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 06:27:48 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:28:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:31:28 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:31:36 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:36:40 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755d9d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:45 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:37:12 good morning 06:37:28 mvilleneuve: morning 06:45:04 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-irixitmbwsdduxao] has joined #lisp 06:48:26 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:51:16 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:32 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:51:33 -!- aidalgol [aidan@69.61.15.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:52:22 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:52:26 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 06:54:27 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:01:26 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 07:02:04 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 07:03:05 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:04:19 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-168-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:05:52 mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:07:45 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:51 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 07:10:05 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 07:10:10 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-107-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:10:31 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.114] has joined #lisp 07:12:17 what is a good, self-contained library for code reading? 07:12:28 preferably something closy 07:12:58 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:13:22 gbbopen comes to mind; any others? 07:13:50 code reading, as in READing .lisp files? 07:14:53 as in reading books 07:15:05 i just like to read utlity libraries 07:16:19 flexichain perhaps? 07:18:03 I know I liked it for the cuteness when I read beach's primordial attempt at a reader (dunno where I found it) which used clos classes as states and used change-class on them. 07:19:37 it IS cute 07:19:46 (defun squre (x) (* x x)) :-) 07:20:10 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:20:21 nostoi [~nostoi@60.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:56 you like (expt x 2) better? 07:23:51 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:30 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:27:47 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:33 licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 07:28:45 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:29:17 tcr: Yeah, but it probably was a little *too* cute. 07:29:36 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:51 flexichain is a good example of the use of both external and internal protocols. 07:30:13 [and of course good morning everyone] 07:31:15 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:31:33 More metaprogramming questions (trying to make a documentation browser (yes I know about tinaa)). 07:31:40 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 07:31:44 (describe 'weblocks::defwidget) says that it's a macro and that it's macro documentation is blah. 07:31:47 spiaggia: stupid question, but does flexichain work with any element type? 07:32:03 But I can't seem to retrieve blah any other way, in particular not with (documentation ...). Any ideas? 07:32:21 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 07:32:24 fusss: It does yeah, and it communicates the element type to make-array so that you get all the benefits of compact representation by your favorite implementation. 07:34:11 rlpowell: Not with (documentation 'blah 'function)? 07:34:32 spiaggia: *blink* 07:34:43 Yes, actually; I thought (documentation 'blah t) was a superset thereof. 07:35:31 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:35:33 (documentation 'weblocks::defwidget 'function) -- works; * (documentation 'weblocks::defwidget t) WARNING: unsupported DOCUMENTATION: type T for object SYMBOL 07:35:41 Not wwhat I would have expected. But it works; yay! Thanks. 07:36:13 What did you expect t to do? 07:36:16 rlpowell: The second thing means that it looks for a method specialized on symbol, and apparently that doesn't exist. 07:36:27 clhs documentation 07:36:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 07:37:31 HG` [~HG@xdslex118.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:45 spiaggia: Yeah, I was there. 07:38:19 Zhivago: Since "Returns a documentation string specialized on the class of the argument x itself. For example, if x is a function, the documentation string associated with the function x is returned. ", I expected it to do the same thing as 'function where a function is involved. 07:39:19 The class of 'weblocks::defwidget being? 07:39:36 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 07:39:51 Zhivago: * (class-of #'weblocks::defwidget) # 07:39:59 Erm, wait. 07:40:05 * (class-of 'weblocks::defwidget) # 07:40:08 So yes, I see your point. 07:40:09 There you go. 07:40:36 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:40:43 I would have expected *'compiler-macro* as more likely to work than 'function, since it's a macro, but I don't claim to understand the internal representation of macros. 07:41:05 What is *'compiler-macro* supposed to mean? 07:41:23 Sorry; stars for emphasis. 07:41:28 Bad habit in this case. :D 07:41:33 Ah. 07:42:16 rlpowell: read the specification for fboundp and symbol-function 07:42:34 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@60.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:43:18 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:43:37 tcr: Got it. Thanks. 07:44:09 *rlpowell* finds the whole multiple-namespace thing confusing; sorry. 07:48:42 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:58 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:51:24 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:52 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 07:52:01 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:19 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:53:18 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:32 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:54:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:52 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:11 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:57:34 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 08:00:11 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:00:50 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:00:57 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:01:42 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:42 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:03:48 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 08:04:54 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:04:58 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:07 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has joined #lisp 08:05:16 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:06:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-seksobrsufxemjts] has joined #lisp 08:07:26 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:11 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:08:41 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:09:18 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:11:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:12:54 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:13:33 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:13:42 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:13:42 konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has joined #lisp 08:14:39 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:15:35 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:16:16 randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:20:22 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:20:51 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:24:10 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:31 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:25:47 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:27:14 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:27:15 _ace4016_ [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:41 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:29:55 hey is weblocks fun? 08:30:19 lisp is fun. 08:30:27 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 08:31:29 -!- merl15_ is now known as merl15 08:31:29 Is there anything stable for lisp that does web? Last time I looked, admittedly some years ago, things sounded a bit crashy 08:31:53 minion: Tell mstevens about hunchenoot. 08:31:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``hunchenoot''. 08:32:00 minion: Tell mstevens about hunchentoot. 08:32:00 mstevens: there are web servers, html generators, template engines. what exactly do you need? 08:32:00 mstevens: have a look at hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 08:32:52 jdz: very loosely speaking, an alternative to django 08:34:51 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:34:54 pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has joined #lisp 08:35:08 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:35:23 mstevens: there's lots of stuff mentioned in http://www.cliki.net/web 08:35:33 PCL has me convinced lisp could be vastly more productive than python but I've nevr tried it out seriously. 08:35:40 Due to ye-olde concern about lack of mature libraries 08:35:54 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:35:55 mstevens: but as far as i know there is no "canonical" lisp web framework 08:36:14 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-181.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:36:22 I quite like the idea of writing my html in lisp 08:36:31 jdz: I don't mind "canonical" as long as I get "good" 08:36:44 mstevens, we have our stuff at http://dwim.hu (don't know what qualifies as stable, though) 08:36:57 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 08:37:04 some use weblocks here, some use the dwim.hu stuff, and then there's also drewc's uncommon web 08:37:04 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:07 mstevens: that is quite cool, yes. but only if you're the only person involved in developing. 08:37:24 if you choose one of these three, you'll probably be able to find help here 08:37:49 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:38:11 attila_lendvai: I'm probably being overly paranoid, but the last time I read about someone using lisp seriously for web was reddit, and I think they reported whatever server they were using was annoyingly prone to crashing as one of their reasons for switching 08:38:14 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-seksobrsufxemjts] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:38 mstevens, we're running sites for the hungarian government based on that codebase 08:39:19 and SBCL got a great amount of fixes in the last 2 years re stability 08:39:32 attila_lendvai: btw, what is the exact purpose of dwim.hu? 08:39:36 didn't they try to use multithreading with sbcl on darwin? 08:39:39 attila_lendvai: Yes I'm very aware I was last paying attention to this several years ago. 08:39:47 attila_lendvai: thus my questioning! 08:40:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ivemndksuxxyvoam] has joined #lisp 08:40:03 mstevens: there are half a dozen of implementations to choose from 08:40:07 <_3b> not like there aren't plenty of places saying they have to restart there language X servers every few hours to maintain uptime for most choices of X anyway :p 08:40:09 tcr: My vague memory says it was a FreeBSD server they had trouble with. 08:40:40 mstevens: I think the trouble was on their development machine which ran darwin. Multithreading on darwin with sbcl is known to be flaky. 08:40:54 I actually rather like clojure, but I'm concerned about the future of the JVM 08:41:03 mishoo, a site run with minimal efforts to host our opensource projects and a minimal tech demo (see demo/user interface) 08:41:07 tcr: is it still the case today? 08:41:13 very much so 08:41:31 mstevens: there is some effort to get Clojure on .Net going ;) 08:41:43 jdz: eww that's worse 08:42:25 It's not clear what's sbcl's fault and what's darwin's fault on properly implementing posix signals stuff 08:42:56 I want to run on linux anyway :) 08:43:39 plenty of options to choose from 08:44:02 I suggestion you start with sbcl+slime. You'll probably love that setup. 08:47:36 reddit were using cmucl 08:48:38 (and couldn't use anything else since they'd decided to develop on macs and deploy on freebsd) 08:48:56 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:07 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 08:50:14 But I have a crazy plan. And since there's just me to work on the crazy plan, I need to decide on the most productive option 08:51:27 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:54:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:56:50 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:58:40 bust out common lisp and go nuts 08:59:15 I'd tell you what the crazy plan is, but it's embarassingly ambitious 08:59:27 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:59:34 mstevens: So? 08:59:46 spiaggia: so I prefer to fail quietly :) 09:00:31 mstevens: You are going to have to tell us at some point, because you will need to ask questions here :) 09:00:36 no way spill it 09:00:42 I want to steal your ideas and get rich 09:01:00 it is not a terribly good idea 09:01:18 how about cloning world of warcraft in common lisp? 09:01:19 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:01:45 I have some webmail ideas. So I plan to try to improve on gmail (for me at least. Hopefully other people will like it too and give me money) 09:01:55 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:02:36 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:38 mstevens: I wish you the best of luck. 09:02:45 I am personally waiting for a nice chat option 09:02:47 *schme* doesn't even like webmail 09:02:52 email to me sucks comapred to chat 09:03:04 I remember the old days of aol chat 09:03:05 I wonder what idea is now more clever, writing a wow clone of a gmail clone 09:03:12 wow zillions of people in zillions of rooms 09:03:21 I use fastmail.fm 09:03:48 scme: the goal is to minimise the amount of time people spend doing their email so they can get onto more useful things 09:03:50 gavino: Personally I find email a much superior tool. 09:04:18 mstevens: Sounds like a good plan. I'd love to get my emailing done more efficiently. 09:04:27 more time for irc then, eh. 09:05:47 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:25 -!- gavino [~g@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06:29 Hmm. I need a faster machine, building sbcl is killing gnome performance. 09:07:07 that are some stress tests I added a few weeks ago 09:07:15 perhaps I should make them less stressful 09:08:06 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:27 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 09:08:52 at that time I didn't think of that contrib tests are run as part of the standard build process 09:09:52 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:10:14 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:11:05 longkid [~longkid@113.22.142.75] has joined #lisp 09:12:35 hello 09:14:21 hi longkid 09:16:32 mstevens: take a look at "notmuch" (http://notmuchmail.org/), I think it's quite cool 09:16:41 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 09:17:02 dshep [~user@dan75-7-88-166-185-201.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:20 mstevens: I wrote my own webmail too, maybe you can reuse anything from that: www.xuheki.com (the UI is quite cool, but it's not changing the world) 09:18:52 hi mishoo! 09:19:16 then I found notmuch and was planning to integrate it, but this is delayed into the uncertain future as I no longer use Perl 09:19:24 jdz: hey there 09:20:08 Does someone know HTML formatting library such as cl-who? 09:20:37 longkid: such as cl-who but with what different? 09:21:47 I don't know about it. I want to investigate it 09:22:00 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:22:00 minion: tell longkid about cl-wh 09:22:00 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-wh''. 09:22:04 minion: tell longkid about cl-who 09:22:05 longkid: please look at cl-who: CL-WHO is yet another specimen of the Lisp Markup Languages category, that is, it's a Web library to create (X)HTML from S-expressions. http://www.cliki.net/cl-who 09:22:05 fail 09:22:07 hello longkid 09:22:17 longkid: several people here, including me, use it. 09:22:31 spiaggia: hello 09:22:51 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23:11 spiaggia: I've already read your email 09:23:30 longkid: Good! 09:24:17 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 09:25:31 spiaggia: about your suggestion, write a Web-based program that implements the functionalities of doodle.ch 09:25:54 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755d9d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:47 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:26:52 spiaggia: It's also an interesting project, because I have never written a software like that. 09:28:19 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:30:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:03 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:33:47 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:36:17 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 09:36:22 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:37:07 freiksenet [~freiksene@193.166.11.250] has joined #lisp 09:39:16 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 09:39:58 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 09:42:45 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 09:43:16 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:44:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:45:41 puddingpimp [~dave@118-93-74-47.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:45:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:45 has anyone successfully built hemlock (from gitorious) on sbcl 1.0.37 (Linux/amd64)? 09:48:17 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:21 the build.sh doesn't work by default, I set SBCL=/usr/bin/sbcl, it runs, I installed all the deps I could from asdf-install, then tracked down the rest from git, and now I'm seeing a Invalid initialization argument: :SONAME error 09:48:56 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:48:57 since I replaced iolib-0.60 with the version from gitorious 09:49:30 is there a working build script/package manager that will get it and all the dependencies correct and work? 09:49:38 use clbuild rather than asdf-install 09:49:45 minion: clbuild 09:49:46 clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 09:49:52 I tried clbuild install hemlock but it fails to resolve some of the repos 09:50:19 and clbuild doesn't seem to use my system's sbcl/ccl 09:50:33 are you sure you're on clbuild head? 09:50:41 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 09:51:04 is there a way to make clbuild install globally on /usr/local or ~/bin/ 09:51:23 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 09:51:32 tcr, not sure, I think I checked it out of git, but I haven't up'd it in a month 09:51:56 nope didn't git/svn it 09:52:06 I seem to recall it uses darcs 09:52:27 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:07 oh yep, darcs pull'ing it now 09:53:44 "Warning: CRC errors found. These are probably harmless but should be repaired." is this badness acceptable? 09:53:47 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:15 i usually do what the message says and everything is fine 09:54:21 I honestly don't get care whether I use clbuild's sbcl/ccl/whatever or the distros, arch doesn't seem to have good lisp packaging anyway 09:54:30 seems pretty awesome otherwise 09:54:46 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:55:34 lisp is not very compatible with distribution's package management because of many implementations 09:55:47 I think I raged at clbuild last time I used it because I wasn't sure how to get emacs-slime working with it 09:56:19 now I'm rage at Gnu Emacs because 23.1 is inextricably not working with my XIM (ibus) 09:56:32 so I wanted to see what other *macs were like 09:56:45 clbuild has some command to show you a .emacs snippet to copy&paste 09:56:54 tried climacs, found it wanting 09:57:57 also I hate the CLIM scrollbars, I guess hemlock uses them to, yea or not? 09:58:03 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:58:18 hemlock has scrollbars? 09:58:37 I prefer my Gnu/Emacs on the rocks with Xt (for some reason called toolkit=no) 09:58:40 (here is my sarcasm sign= 09:59:12 I've never used hemlock, I have thus far not managed to install it 09:59:24 clbuild seems to be working better currently 09:59:45 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:59:53 i suggest you try to get your Emacs working because as far as i know hemlock does not use SLIME, and SLIME is awesome 09:59:57 well, darcs is busy doing *something* after running clbuild install hemlock 10:00:05 I know slime is awesome 10:00:11 especially fancy-slime 10:01:04 *mstevens* abandoned darcs for git, and has never looked back 10:01:19 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:01:39 you can't exactly abandon something when it's not your project 10:01:56 if they say use darcs to get it, you have to use darcs 10:02:00 sad 10:02:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:02:45 it is not sad. it is good that there are many competing products. otherwise you'd have to use winblows. 10:02:58 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-168-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:03:54 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 10:03:54 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066167.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 10:05:55 jdz, well, you'd probably have to use whatever BigBlue told you to, once upon a time Windows and MS-DOS was the competitor 10:06:22 p_l: ping 10:06:46 puddingpimp: yes, you get the point :) 10:07:02 the world would be very boring without diversity 10:07:45 as far as I can tell, clbuild is infact using my standard sbcl 10:08:13 is there some way I should put clbuild/systems folder into the asdf search path? 10:08:14 puddingpimp: how many of them do you have (and why more than one)? 10:08:35 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 10:08:39 jdz, I have /usr/bin/sbcl and /usr/bin/ccl (Clozure 32) and /usr/bin/ccl64 10:08:44 and probably clisp somewhere 10:08:54 /usr/bin/clisp 10:08:57 so yea, only one of each 10:09:01 well, only one of those is sbcl :) 10:09:08 I fully realise that 10:09:32 I was just under the impression a minute ago that clbuild had built a separate version of sbcl 10:09:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:09:46 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has quit [Quit: pbalogh] 10:09:47 but further investigation proved this a fallacy 10:10:49 so I guess I put something in my ~/.sbclrc to extend my asdf searchpath, but I'm not sure what that might be 10:11:12 or I could delete ~/.sbcl/systems and symlink it into there 10:11:20 what do you do? 10:11:27 (push "your/path/here" asdf:*central-registry*) 10:11:34 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 10:11:48 well, i have not used clbuild 10:11:57 jsnell [~jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:13 it might also ignore user's initialization file 10:12:29 is there something like ~/.clbuild? 10:13:04 nope 10:13:12 I don't want to have to start lisp every time with clbuild lisp 10:13:30 I just want to type sbcl and have at my disposal all the packages installed by clbuild 10:14:09 alias sbcl 'clbuild lisp' 10:14:16 then you'd put the clbuild's system folder in asdf:*central-registry* (in implementation's initfile) 10:14:51 Krystof: and also configure slime properly 10:15:05 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:15:46 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:14 Krystof, and to put clbuild on the path? just symlink it to ~/bin/clbuild? 10:16:33 puddingpimp: isn't your ~/bin on your path already? 10:17:11 jdz, ~/bin is 10:17:19 pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has joined #lisp 10:17:20 clbuild however doesn't have any install script, and is not 10:17:35 oh, sorry, read the question wrong 10:18:15 well I symlinked clbuild to ~/bin/ and re-ran build.sh in my git hemlock (after running clbuild install hemlock, which didn't result in a binary) 10:18:41 what binary? 10:19:10 does clbuild create binaries for every system? 10:19:12 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:19:33 no 10:19:34 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:19:41 but I want a hemlock binary 10:19:56 I think it just installs the packages following all the dependencies 10:20:46 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:29 i have my hemlock init file from year 2003 here: http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/.hemlock-init.lisp 10:21:49 The constant +CLX-CACHED-TYPES+ is being redefined (from 10:21:49 (DRAWABLE WINDOW PIXMAP CURSOR COLORMAP FONT) to 10:21:49 (DRAWABLE WINDOW PIXMAP CURSOR COLORMAP FONT)) 10:21:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:22:00 maybe it helps (there is a comment about binary at the end, but it is for CMUCL) 10:22:25 the hemlock from git is allegedly portable 10:22:59 hm it seems one can't overwrite *debugger-hook* from within slime 10:23:06 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:06 which *debugger-hook*? :) 10:24:53 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 10:24:56 hm SBCL does not seem to provide a (setf global-symbol-value) 10:25:15 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.136.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:25:27 -!- dshep [~user@dan75-7-88-166-185-201.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 10:26:07 tcr: which implementation does provide it? 10:26:53 something tells me I should just use emacs, maybe the development HEAD has this bug fixed 10:27:59 I know XIM still works in other programs like wish and rxvt 10:28:50 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:59 I was looking forward to trying something new though 10:32:15 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:01 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:33:03 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 10:38:10 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:26 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 10:44:52 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.142.75] has left #lisp 10:46:01 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 10:48:36 Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:49:17 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:54 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:50:12 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Changing host] 10:50:12 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 10:50:41 brookeGarcia [~brookeGar@dsl-148-0.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 10:51:14 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:55:04 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:25 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has quit [Quit: pbalogh] 10:55:32 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:55:49 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 10:57:46 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:58:24 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 11:01:08 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ivemndksuxxyvoam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:01:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:05:02 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:09 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:07:01 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 11:08:36 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:09:06 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:10:55 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:14:00 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-078-042-205-245.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:10 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:46 nurv [nurv@83.231.91.95] has joined #lisp 11:15:00 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:16:07 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:17:06 pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has joined #lisp 11:19:34 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 11:20:12 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:20:59 Does anyone have an example on how (define-easy-handler (fn :uri "/url") ((param :parameter-type 'hash-table) ... works in hunchentoot? (the hash-table) 11:21:46 fe[nl]ix: pong 11:22:07 for example how to post the parameters so that they will appear as hash-table 11:27:39 knobo: Make M-. your friend 11:28:01 It will eventually get you to (compute-hash-table-parameter....) 11:28:40 But there is a little more to it than just that function, its a little involved at first glance. 11:28:54 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:28:56 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:29:13 Mn? 11:29:19 you man M-. ? 11:29:35 Ya I said M-. 11:29:43 knobo: yep, press this keybinding over some function/variable and SLIME will take you to its definition 11:29:49 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has quit [Quit: pbalogh] 11:30:06 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:30:36 I think I found out. it has to be posted someting like 'param{key}=val' 11:31:04 mine was posted 'param[key]=val' 11:31:13 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:31:54 pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has joined #lisp 11:32:49 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:33:13 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has quit [Client Quit] 11:33:45 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:59 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:36:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:38:24 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 11:39:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:40:26 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:40:52 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:41:05 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:19 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:43:43 Ogedei [~user@e178223017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:05 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 11:51:37 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.91.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:51:50 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:57:26 Is it possible in sbcl to get more detailed information than the breakdown that ROOM shows? It just says lots of instance objects, I'd like to know their exact type 11:57:32 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:16 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:24 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:59:32 (sb-vm:instance-usage :dynamic :top-n 100) ? 12:01:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:03:38 hi folks. my new lisp game available in playable alpha on win / mac / linux http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/ 12:04:31 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:04:34 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:05:16 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:06:50 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:08:16 dto: it works on tiger? 12:08:39 i dunno. 12:08:46 it's intel only. 12:08:56 my friend makes the mac binaries 12:09:06 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 12:10:09 nurv [nurv@83.231.91.95] has joined #lisp 12:10:35 dto: which lisp? 12:10:50 SBCL. 12:11:03 if you don't need threads, it should be possible to do a macos build as well 12:11:27 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0090-205-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:33 we are putting together a guide / build scripts for delivering CL games that use sdl and or opengl on multiplatforms 12:11:40 rsynnott: you mean pre-OSX macos? 12:11:58 sorry, a PPC build :) 12:12:02 i would love to make a universal binary 12:12:03 yeah :) 12:12:24 if it compiles on openmcl you could even have a PPC build w/threads 12:12:27 rsynnott: did you see my future of lisp games post? 12:12:30 nope 12:16:21 i saw it and it was spectacular! 12:17:17 :) 12:17:29 rsynnott: http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com a few posts down from the top 12:22:03 dto: well, it works on OSX/Tiger/X86. :) 12:22:08 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-078-042-205-245.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:01 hypno: cool. let me know if you have any issues or feedback. 12:23:07 this is an alpha so it's a bit rough in terms of gameplay 12:23:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5KmZxQxiJ0 <---- making-of video, also of intrigue to lisp peeps 12:24:10 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 12:24:17 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:24:39 dto: it i working better than i would expect. the image size is a problem for a game like this. startup was slow too, but it seems to run stable. :) 12:24:53 the first time it starts it might decide to recompile the game module. 12:25:00 hypno: cool :) 12:25:15 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:07 dto: ah, that is probably it! many orders of magnitude faster to boot the second start. 12:28:05 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:28:18 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:29:16 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:29:31 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:31:18 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.229.137] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 I'm an idiot. How do I start that game? when i do ./run-cons I get into a lisp-interpreter with some messages, one of them saying (no restarts: If you didn't do this on purpose, please report it as a bug.) 12:32:16 Are there any dependencies i need installed? 12:32:18 knobo` [~user@90.149.5.245] has joined #lisp 12:32:40 neutral [~bubble@p54AA728B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:05 dto: this is done with opengl, right? 12:33:26 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 12:33:27 hypno: It's SDL, which iirc builds upon opengl 12:33:44 Ah, ok. 12:34:10 dto: fwiw, i wrap buildapp custom toplevels with a (with-simple-restart (abort "Exit") (toplevel-fun)) 12:34:20 Oh, I am dumb 12:34:30 dto: it avoids that "if you didn't do this on purpose" message in the event of a crash 12:34:39 -!- knobo [~user@ti100710a080-0223.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:35:01 dto: Cannot find module "standard" in paths (#P"/home/dto/xe2/"). 12:35:31 Did you put in the homedir statically? O_o 12:35:57 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.229.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:36:37 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-czxbesgppadagtnt] has joined #lisp 12:36:47 hypno: no GL. just 2d sdl. 12:36:55 phryk: see the file BINARY-README. 12:37:06 you are on linux right? that's the only place that error pops up 12:37:23 Yup 12:37:37 it just needs to know where you untarred the folder, unfortunately 12:37:42 Ah i read README and found nothing related^^ 12:37:47 damn. 12:38:24 i'll add a note from one to the other 12:38:53 i need to rewrite this whole readme. 12:39:36 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@193.166.11.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:40:05 ah it compiles 12:40:11 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:40:15 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:40:17 8bit music, yay 12:40:25 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:42:08 phryk: the first load it will compile yess 12:42:46 lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:17 Xach: what purpose message are you referring to? 12:44:46 dto: the one phryk reported. 12:44:48 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.91.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:45:08 dto: there are some assumptions in SBCL about the restarts available that aren't always true if you use a custom toplevel in save-lisp-and-die. 12:45:16 -!- knobo` is now known as knobo 12:45:17 *Xach* should probably investigate and fix *that* instead 12:47:30 ah. 12:48:02 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 12:48:22 Xach: SBCL on windows always seems to produce binaries that open a terminal with the kitten of death message. it turns out suppressing that would require a hex editor. i think it would be a big step forward if it could be configured lisp-side 12:49:38 dto: i think that's a "patches welcome" thing. 12:50:27 poor kitten of death :( 12:50:46 no-one loves him 12:50:49 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:27 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066167.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:51:38 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-gcunarqrwjhucsmk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:51:51 Xach: ooh, i wouldn't know where to begin. not only does it involve windows, but it involves sbcl internals, neither of which do i know anything about. 12:52:04 dto: and that's why the kitten of death lingers :) 12:52:25 knowledge is an acquirable thing 12:53:09 Xach: this may seem like a minor point. but. i would like to ship some games on a nice dvd with win/mac/linux binaries and source for each, plus extra soundtrack cd with remixes and stickers and other value-adds. so it being a semi-commercial product, i would want to suppress the kitten. 12:53:14 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:15 dto: ok, so i've played it a little bit now. the "Data archive" was one hard ass place. anyway, all in all, great work. :) 12:53:26 hypno: did you get to the biome? 12:53:40 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:45 Xach: where would i post about the kitten? 12:53:57 Deathkitten? 12:53:59 dto: sbcl-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 12:54:02 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:06 dto: nyef is to blame for that kitten 12:54:15 (and for sbcl on windows) 12:54:28 Presumably, if using a cl-gtk binding or whatever, sbcl should instead display a lolcat on startup 12:54:28 dto: i do not think so. there was a lot of radioactiveness going on and tons of enemies. i just push "X" on one of the options. 12:54:44 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:54 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 hypno: the biome is behind a locked door in the security sector. the mission will involve collecting pollen from there :) 12:57:21 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:54 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:57:59 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 13:00:26 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:01:07 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:02:37 lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:25 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:38 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:05:59 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:47 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:09:11 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:10:54 vtl [~user@rb5bi64.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 13:15:43 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16:36 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:19:19 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:25 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 13:23:02 -!- vtl [~user@rb5bi64.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:59 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 13:25:26 mikezor_ [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:27:27 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:27:34 -!- mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:28:46 vtl [~user@rb5bi64.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 13:30:01 pbalogh [~pbalogh@12.14.38.6] has joined #lisp 13:30:04 rizabawt [~riza@unaffiliated/riza] has joined #lisp 13:30:13 Hello. What are some real world use of lisp? 13:30:36 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:45 rizabawt: most people use it to program computers 13:31:01 dlowe, NICE! 13:31:17 rizabawt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHCRYzk2xLM 13:31:23 rizabawt: a few websites my group has made have lisp backends: http://gainesville-green.com/ http://gainesville-green.com/ 13:33:02 I love it, people get so caught up in this language or that language, but in the end it comes down to what are you trying to make the computer do 13:33:33 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33:41 it really doesn't matter once you've made the computer do that thing, as long as it's doing it fast enough 13:34:14 what matters is the process of converting desires to procedures 13:34:14 that's not quite true. There are all sorts of costs that are attached to language choice 13:34:18 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:40 and I find Lisp, also perl and ruby do that really nice for me 13:35:09 if it doesn't work for YOU, then you're better of doing something else 13:35:19 however, for someone starting out, picking a new language can be daunting. It's not a small investment 13:35:48 whether that be using C++ or Java (and I hate Java) or flipping Burgers at White Castle 13:37:45 dlowe, the one thing I can't stand, is being forced out of componentisation, if you have a module that does what you want already, it's pretty fail when you can't use it because that module isn't compatible with your choice of language 13:38:50 unix is pretty uber in that way, in that if you can't link some code into your program, chances are pretty good you can just call it as an external process and have it do what you want 13:39:26 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 13:41:05 lnostdal [~lnostdal@162.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:04 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44:21 rizabawt: oops, copy/paste failure, I meant to have http://www.localgetaways.com/ as the second url 13:44:32 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:45:11 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:17 -!- palter is now known as palter_ 13:47:24 -!- palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:40 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:47:45 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:48:08 -!- palter is now known as palter_ 13:48:30 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 13:48:34 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 13:48:35 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:19 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:49:39 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 13:50:04 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:50:57 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host 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[~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:55:01 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:55:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 13:55:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:55:40 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:11 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:56:21 nyef pasted "dto: See if this does the trick for you wrt. that window" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98198 13:56:51 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:08 -!- rizabawt [~riza@unaffiliated/riza] has left #lisp 13:57:22 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:57:27 heh 13:58:02 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:33 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 13:59:13 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:18 "If all else fails, patch the binary." 13:59:26 nyef: i'll give it a shot in a while 14:00:00 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:00 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:01:00 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:01:00 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:01:31 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:02:51 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:03:01 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:03:57 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 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[~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:28:05 Is it possible to change the rank of an existing array? 14:29:21 Or I should say, which function to use to change the rank? I see that adjust-array only changes the shape, but can't change the rank 14:30:29 -!- licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:03 licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 14:31:57 Sikander: I think that might be possible with a displaced array. It's not quite the same as what you're asking. 14:32:28 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:33:44 Xach: I'll have a look 14:36:03 Ducklover [~Ducklover@ip5456425a.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 14:36:23 -!- Ducklover [~Ducklover@ip5456425a.speed.planet.nl] has left #lisp 14:36:58 Xach: Ah, I never knew about displaced arrays. If I understand correctly, it doesn't create a new array, but the displaced array points to values of the displaced-to array? 14:37:03 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 Sikander: yes. 14:37:25 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 14:37:59 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:38:15 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:23 Xach: Thanks, I guess this is might accomplish what I want. 14:40:20 though keep in mind that displaced arrays are slow 14:41:27 just like lisp. 14:42:32 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:44:18 Are they slow by definition, or does it just depend on how complex the "transformation" is? 14:44:55 konr [~konrad@201.82.137.6] has joined #lisp 14:45:20 Sikander: they're slower than simpler arrays 14:45:30 they are implemented slow, access isn't inlined, etc. 14:47:02 Ok, thanks. Apparently my arrays are too small for me to really notice. So I don't care for now :) 14:47:20 But thanks for the warning 14:50:58 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755d9d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:44 laynor [~ale@109.78.28.252] has joined #lisp 14:53:17 hi, does asdf-install work on sbcl windows? I think i'm having some problems. 14:55:22 It's not expected to work on windows, no. 14:55:54 It's also heartily disrecommended in general. 14:56:23 I'm kind of new with lisp, what is considered to be the best practice? 14:57:06 somecodehere` [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:57:13 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:57:27 It rather depends on what you want to do. Some people recommend clbuild. I tend to try to just do things manually. 14:58:55 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-131-62-220.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:59:04 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-250-95.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:01:06 longkid [~longkid@113.22.142.75] has joined #lisp 15:01:23 Hmm, can you suggest a really fast way to read vectors of unsigned 32-bit integers from file with SBCL? I'd prefer not using extra-standard features, but don't mind warping the code to play to SBCL's strengths. 15:01:29 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632868.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 15:01:57 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:02:14 right now i'm reading into octet vectors and assembling the bytes into (unsigned-byte 32) vectors. 15:02:22 http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-vector-io 15:02:23 use FFI and mmap? 15:02:27 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 15:03:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:03:19 haven't tried, don't know about performance 15:03:33 stassats: thanks. i'll give that a try and compare. 15:05:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:07:00 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:14 about 4x-5x faster 15:07:27 and what's your method? 15:07:55 read into octet vectors, assemble sets of 4 octets into u32, save to u32 vector 15:07:58 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:09:02 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:09:47 with mmap you could read 32 bits in one go, but the problem would be endiannes 15:10:29 oh, sb-vector-io doesn't do anything with endianness either 15:10:50 hmm 15:11:21 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:33 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:12:42 hhex` [~user@178.115.60.120.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:34 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:46 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 15:14:01 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:14:12 fawzi [~famo@hexa11.chemie.hu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:31 using a straight element-type (unsigned-byte 32) stream is slightly slower than using a ub8 stream and assembling 15:15:55 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:11 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:18:14 I'd actually expect that using an unsigned-byte element type with a width other than 8 would be asking for trouble. 15:18:32 I think we support quite a lot of unsigned-byte n widths 15:18:44 no effort has been made to make them efficient at all, I believe 15:18:48 Little-endian, big-endian, or native-endian? 15:19:06 you could test for #+(sbcl :big/little-endian) and use sb-vector-io when it fits 15:19:14 nyef: the only requirement is read/write-consistency 15:20:11 Only requirement from the CL standard, maybe. 15:20:46 But at the point where you're doing binary I/O, you're probably wanting to work with an established file format or other programs, at which point you actually care what the bits are on the disk. 15:21:03 and then you use unsigned-byte 8 :) 15:21:58 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:22:09 Which goes right back to "asking for trouble", doesn't it? 15:24:36 nyef: you said "other than 8" was asking for trouble earlier. is 8 also asking for trouble? 15:24:59 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:25:00 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-14-87.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:25:33 Xach: I have to believe it isn't, otherwise we start looking at things like using latin-1 and back-converting to octets. 15:26:15 nyef: I'm confused by your "right back" comment. Was that in response to Xof? 15:26:59 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-39-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:27:14 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 15:28:27 Yes. 15:29:09 As soon as you discard any requirements for particular octet ordering for external data other than read/write consistency you're asking for trouble with respect to that ordering. 15:29:47 -!- hhex` [~user@178.115.60.120.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:30:20 Doesn't sbcl optimise a tail-recursive function defined with labels? 15:30:24 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:30:50 -!- laynor [~ale@109.78.28.252] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:57 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 15:30:58 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:31:05 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 15:31:28 shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:45 nuntius [~nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:10 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 15:33:26 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:41 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:35:07 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:35:29 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:36:10 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:16 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:38:15 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:38:25 Hmmm 15:38:37 Hmm? 15:38:43 Yes, indeed 15:38:59 Okay then. 15:39:00 I have a function that I think is tail-recursive but sbcl doesn't optimise it. 15:39:15 uhm, when tracing compute-restarts, I see that slime-autodoc somehow involves calls to.. compute-restarts?! 15:39:50 In the function, I have an if statement, where the true form contains a progn with as its last call the function, while the false statement returns an actual function. 15:40:22 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:40:29 Isn't that tail-recursive? 15:40:31 Sikander: So there are two obvious possibilities. The first is that it might not really be a tail-call. The second is optimization policy. 15:41:01 It won't be a tail-call if there are any cleanups to be done (special variable unbinding, unwind-protect, handler-bind, etc.) 15:41:08 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:32 nyef: ah, and closing let environments as well? 15:41:36 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:02 Lexical bindings shouldn't need cleanups. 15:42:46 nyef: is special variable unbinding needed when you lexically bind a special variable in a let? 15:42:56 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:00 You can't lexically bind a special variable, by definition. 15:43:14 erm, ok. wait, I'm probably saying this wrong 15:43:28 I have a (let ((*read-eval* nil)) ...) 15:44:13 Would that prevent tail optimisation? 15:44:24 Yes, it would. 15:44:29 dammit 15:44:44 Thanks 15:45:55 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:27 -!- nipra [~nipra@115.118.247.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:46:39 One option is to "just" do a non-local exit with the parameters for your tail call and do your call outside of the binding. 15:47:07 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:47:10 Good evening! 15:47:17 hi beach 15:47:38 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:00 nyef: Ok, but I can also define a function that does the binding and then does the first call to the recursive function, 15:48:03 right? 15:50:44 hi beach 15:50:53 You should be able to define a local function that does no binding and that is tail recursive. 15:50:57 hello longkid 15:51:38 Anyone ever used "clpython"? 15:51:41 mbd [~user@202.80.41.159] has joined #lisp 15:51:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:51:49 Ms.Hoa said that you would come to VN 15:51:59 kenjin2201: yes I did 15:52:01 Sikander: (let ((*read-eval* nil)) (labels ((ff (x) ... (ff ...))) (ff ...))) 15:52:06 longkid: End of may. 15:52:20 kenjin2201: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/talks/python-and-lisp-2009.pdf 15:52:22 tcr: are there any docs? 15:52:26 beach: good news 15:52:32 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-250-95.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:35 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 longkid: Glad you think so! I'll probably give some talks. 15:53:04 kenjin2201: there's some rudimentary bits in the source tarball iirc 15:53:26 beach: Ah, thanks 15:53:45 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 15:53:59 beach: how about Sudoku project? What should I do next? 15:54:09 tcr: Is it good enough to pay some attention? or just a toy at this moment? 15:54:25 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:28 longkid: talk to maus and vng so that you can try to connect the GUI and your stuff. 15:55:30 kenjin2201: well I was paid to do what that talk summaries; it's my impression that its author still has interests in it but not much time. He was very kind and supportive by mail. 15:55:47 beach: OK. I'll discuss with them 15:57:01 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-irixitmbwsdduxao] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:57:05 longkid: In the process, you may have to participate in a "code review". This is done in industry, and it consists of one person explaining his or her code to some other people. 15:57:23 tcr: There doesn't seem to exist any docs about it, I'm afraid 15:57:26 longkid: In this case, you should be prepared to sit down for a few hours and explain your code to them. 15:58:15 beach: Yes, I did it when I worked at one company. 15:58:25 longkid: Oh, excellent! 15:58:42 beach: explain my code to maus and vng? 15:59:00 Oh seems like willem has done further work on clpython, cool 15:59:34 It looks cool but no idea of how to use it 15:59:45 longkid: Yes. 15:59:58 -!- puddingpimp [~dave@118-93-74-47.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:27 beach: should I do it immediately? 16:00:34 longkid: They think it is "hard to understand", but that probably says more about their experience in reading other people's than about your code. They need to learn more about how to do that anyway. 16:00:53 longkid: No rush, but that should be the next step. 16:01:00 tcr: the coolest thing would be if it was able to run c extensions 16:01:06 kenjin2201: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/tmp/clpython-design.pdf -- that was previously in the source checkout, I think willem removed it because it's so old 16:01:42 kenjin2201: I'm not sure what you expect. If you're really interested I suggest to dive into the code and mail the author your questions. 16:02:06 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:28 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 16:03:08 beach: I don't understand the aim of explaining code to other people 16:03:46 so that they can understand the code 16:03:47 tcr: I want to know what python libraries I can use with it and how well clpython can interact with lisp. 16:04:21 longkid: And yet you did it at your company? Well, it serves several purposes. First, when someone needs to explain some code out loud, he or she often discovers some problems with it, or some ways in which could be improved. 16:04:23 not ones written in C, last time i checked 16:05:03 kenjin2201: You can't use any written in C. It interacts pretty nicely because it's all Lisp. 16:05:11 longkid: Furthermore, at least in this case, it allows the other people to learn about techniques that they might not have known about before (like using a list of functions). 16:05:47 longkid: Finally, it is a way for a project to spread the knowledge about a module to several participants, so that more people can maintain the code. 16:05:59 beach: Yes, I see. 16:06:08 beach: do you remember maybe what happened to the framebuffer port of McCLIM? 16:06:10 tcr: Can I get a tutorial or something like that? 16:06:30 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:32 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 16:06:40 longkid: You never looked at some piece of code and wanted to ask questions to the original author? 16:06:52 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-110-47.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:06:57 p_l: I have a proof-of-concept implementation, but it is not a full backend. It can be used on a per-pane basis. 16:07:19 hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has joined #lisp 16:07:40 p_l: I could give you what I have so far, but it needs work still. I guess you need the final product? 16:07:43 beach: I was mostly interested in getting the drawing routines into portable form, so that the fb backend could be used for SDL/Win32 16:07:46 tcr: No, I want to ask the author for the unclear point. 16:08:08 kenjin2201: I suggest you delve into the code. There won't be much hand-holding except for asking its author technical questions. 16:08:17 longkid: I thin that's what tcr meant. 16:08:24 beach: since I no longer use framebuffer on my machines, the actual device-dependant part won't work for me :) 16:08:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:09:04 tcr: Thank you tcr. You are very kind. 16:09:47 kenjin2201: Well I wish I could have been more helpful. All I can say is look at that presentation, and see that it's possible. I did that in ~2months 16:09:48 nipra [~nipra@115.118.218.237] has joined #lisp 16:10:27 p_l: The drawing routines are not fully implemented. I concentrated on text, which uses (what's the name of that library again?), so I could rasterize once and cache. For the rest, you need efficient implementations of things like triangulation, converting non-simple polygons to a set of simple ones, etc, etc. I never did that. 16:10:31 zeugma [~user@216.229.3.105] has joined #lisp 16:11:03 beach: oh well. 16:11:14 beach: I want to finish sudoku project as soon as possible. However, its algorithm is difficult for me. 16:11:20 Will have to wait with that for later then :) 16:11:41 p_l: It is not hard to do; just tedious. You have to check current research and implement it. It might be a week of work or so. 16:12:15 nurv [nurv@62.32.135.54] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:12:26 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:32 hhexxx [~user@178.115.60.120.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:32 longkid: Don't worry about the algorithms. Anyone can put those in place. Just make sure you connect what you did to the GUI, so that you generate an initial board that the GUI can then present to the user. 16:12:39 beach: pity that there doesn't seem to be a single, sensible text rendering and layout library available outside of payware. 16:13:43 -!- zeugma [~user@216.229.3.105] has left #lisp 16:13:55 p_l: It is. But then on the other hand, that's hard, because it is hampered by bad-yet-patented technology, such as truetype hinting. 16:14:02 beach: maybe I'll generate a complete board and pass it to GUI 16:14:56 longkid: But you need to know what representation the GUI need for the board to have, so that you can adapt it, or else the GUI needs to be able to work with whatever you produce. In any case, you need to talk to each other. 16:15:01 beach: it doesn't help that X.Org related stuff repeatedly tends to choose worse implementations even when both the worse and better one are available for inclusion... 16:15:29 p_l: What did they choose? 16:15:36 Xft2 16:15:55 p_l: can you make a quick summary of what that does? 16:16:02 which basically means "lets render this clientside and send lots and lots of small bitmaps and XRENDER operations" 16:16:13 beach: I see. I'll discuss with them next week. 16:16:41 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has left #lisp 16:16:44 so that suddenly, even for a simple app, you need to know exact parameters of remote display, while with old X11 fonts you just outputted text. 16:16:48 p_l: Oh, that's one problem. But where does the client get all the data to generate the XRENDER operations? 16:17:03 beach: Xft2 library together with freetype 16:17:38 p_l: But freetype is horrible quality because they can't use hinting, because hinting is patented. 16:18:08 the alternative system was server-based one, where clients would send commands similar to the old-style stuff and the rendering would be handled by server. 16:18:23 beach: depends where you are. Freetype on my machine afaik got hinting. 16:18:32 longkid: In the meantime, I started adding comments so that it would be easier for vng and maus to understand your code. 16:18:33 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 16:18:53 I'm trying to understand where in sbcl it is that in (sb-ext:with-timeout 0.2 (break "foof")) after we entered the debugger, it seems that timers are deferred. Any hints? 16:19:03 p_l: Really! That would be illegal. 16:19:25 p_l: Yes, that would be better. 16:19:48 Aha! that's only behaviour in slime 16:19:57 beach: depends where you build your binary, I guess :P 16:20:54 so, bits built in different places are different too? 16:21:27 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:21:31 stassats: no, it's just that not every country has a whorehouse instead of patent office. 16:22:08 maybe every country should! 16:22:24 p_l: It might. But the entire idea of truetype hinting is silly, because it invents yet another interpreted silly little language which they need because this thing needs to run in applications written in static languages. So people who want to render a new glyph need to illegally use patented technology that defines an inferior interpreted language to get the job done. 16:22:31 contraband builds? 16:22:35 beach the patents do not apply in every country 16:22:53 -!- fawzi [~famo@hexa11.chemie.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:22:57 Guthur: I am willing to believe that. 16:23:15 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.154.237] has joined #lisp 16:23:18 well, OpenType has superior method of delivering font data, but I don't know details. 16:23:44 FT2 is suppose to overcome the problem according to here http://freetype.sourceforge.net/patents.html 16:24:02 unfortunately, the only complete text layout engine with usable license presents you either with slavery to GTK+, or dirty and unfinished interface. 16:24:10 With the autohinting module 16:24:13 it also has slow pipeline 16:24:14 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:46 (since last time I checked, no-one made optimized pipeline for Latin text, which is still the most common) 16:25:13 will it detect your location by GPS and turn on/off hinting? 16:26:13 stassats: no, you can choose to use autohinting or full bytecode interpreter at compile time. 16:26:20 nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 Guthur: Can you explain how that page gets around the patent? 16:26:49 and then travel to US and get busted? 16:26:52 here in poland, for example, you can freely use all that "patented" code. 16:27:01 stassats: only if you plan on distribution. 16:27:08 beach: I meant they got round the problem by providing an alternative in version 2 16:27:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:27:21 stassats: though I recommend not travelling to USA. 16:27:24 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:27:37 beach: Not sure on the quality mind you 16:27:54 stassats: at least do not travel to USA without military backing. 16:28:03 Read the Is "FreeType 2 Affected by the Patents?" section 16:28:15 Guthur: Rendering glyphs without hinting (only with autohinting) give a disgustingly ugly result. That is not "getting around the patent", that is "accepting inferior character rendering". 16:29:08 -!- msosa [~miguel@shop.monetra.com] has left #lisp 16:29:19 beach: it has autohinting which tries to do hinting without patented bytecodes. 16:29:34 p_l: Yes, and the result is disgusting. 16:29:43 personally, I'd like to see METAFONT fonts instead :3 16:30:04 Well there is not much way round it without paying the monopoly tax 16:31:01 p_l: I think the way to go would be to use my ripoff Metafont rendering system (possibly with more Metafont capabilities), translate a good TrueType font to that system using some off-line auto-hinting algorithm, and then start improving the result for glyphs we care about. 16:32:20 p_l: That way, people who think FreeType auto-hinting is fine would get the usual quality, and those who don't think so, could improve their favorite glyph using a real programming language and a real font-creation system. 16:33:38 Guthur: French have a wonderful thing called ASMP-A... it could definitely be used to force Adobe into submission ;-) 16:34:09 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:18 beach: there's a MetaFont variant that generates outline fonts instead of bitmaps. 16:35:09 p_l: The only one I have seen generates bitmaps at very high resolution and then infers an outline from that. Do you have knowledge of any others? 16:35:32 *p_l* notes that using Air-Sol Moyenne Portée against a company in order to drop patents would give him a lot of "evil overlord" points... 16:35:37 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.114] has quit [Quit: off] 16:36:10 beach: not entirely sure about implementation, but i think it was derived through MetaPost, which takes MetaFont to generating postscript. 16:36:25 p_l: Just treating the symptoms though. The patent system is broke, but everyone knows that and its an old argue with no solution; the people with the power to force a change don't want to change it, and it will never be at the forefront of general populous' minds. 16:36:38 Here is a good example of what I mean: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/FreeType.png 16:37:07 Guthur: it's broken, but not everywhere - and getting a patent that works in places where you can't normally get it is too troublesome for companies. 16:37:14 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:56 the Knuth's years refining the fonts for TeX and now troubled by these damn patents. 16:37:57 I don't see how purchasable monopolies are good for anyone 16:38:37 Monopolists are people too. 16:40:17 beach: I see. It is easy for them to understand. 16:40:34 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.138.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:41:01 longkid: I also modified certain functions, and the names of certain others in order to improve understanding. 16:42:25 p_l: I kinda liked the FSF's recent video on patents. 16:42:28 Guthur: patent system works when it is properly constrained. In USA, patent system only shares the name with the origin, nothing else. 16:42:39 -!- hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has quit [Quit: hugod] 16:42:49 beach: I saw the modified functions. Sometimes I don't use the suitable names. 16:42:55 -!- shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 16:42:59 Guthur: you could actually say that US Patents office is actually fulfilling its duty 16:43:12 p_l: What kind of patent system would work? 16:43:14 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 16:44:05 sykopomp: one with clearly designed time limit (that isn't too long) and which only applies to certain inventions and doesn't allow "partial" patents that USA likes so much. 16:44:18 What purpose does it serve? 16:44:29 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:44:32 p_l: so basically, the same patch that would help copyright? :) 16:44:32 If you have an idea you will probably be first to market anyway 16:44:50 for example, a patent in proper system requires that full documentation allowing reproduction of the invention or research on it has to be freely available without any NDA 16:45:15 Guthur: I think the idea is to motivate inventors. 16:45:17 the one that protects only from rip offs 16:45:36 stassats: what's a ripoff? 16:45:39 As if there was never any thinkers or inventors before patents 16:45:40 Guthur: patents in modern world were supposed to help inventors who needed time to prepare their invention to market, and give them enough time to survive competition of big corporations. 16:45:59 Guthur: there were, but they tended to make their inventions secret in order to not be ripped off 16:46:03 ^ 16:46:16 that's why patents required full disclosure in exchange for time-limited monopoly 16:46:17 So it becomes an open secret 16:46:33 longkid: Yeah, and that's more important than one might think. 16:46:35 Knowledge is useless if you are forbidden from using it 16:46:35 Guthur: I'm not sure it's bad when the monopoly is relatively short. 16:46:43 2-5 years seems reasonable enough to me. 16:47:12 some people have tossed around 10, but that seems like way too long in this day and age. Maybe that would've made sense 100 years ago, though. 16:47:23 -!- mbd [~user@202.80.41.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:47 And do you revise that every so often then 16:47:47 Guthur: a patent was supposed to last no longer than several years in times which made for rather slow advancement, making sure that the invention was passed on and that others could use the knowledge for their own inventions, even if they couldn't exactly use the *same* design. 16:47:52 sykopomp: It depends on the domain. 16:48:27 I have a brilliant example of a case similar to what caused the creation of patent system in first place, which happened quite recently. 16:48:34 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:36 beach: I'm not sure how -- 2-5 years as a head start to start actually developing an idea seems pretty reasonable. 16:48:38 hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has joined #lisp 16:49:17 sykopomp: I believe something like the jet engine took a very long time before they actually got it working. 16:49:31 There's a giant shortage of a certain construction glue, used mainly till I think 1970s, because *no one* knows how to manufacture it. The knowledge was lost together with inventor, who took the information to the grave. 16:49:44 beach: I'm not sure the jet engine would've gone without development if it could not be patented. 16:49:51 sykopomp: If you have a very short protection, then by the time you sell it, the patent already expired. 16:50:03 I think there's plenty of interest in developing good ideas, regardless of whether you have a monopoly or not. 16:50:12 but does that suddenly stop human endeavour 16:50:14 sykopomp: actually, engines are one of the places where patents actually worked. 16:50:17 I think not 16:50:23 p_l: how so? 16:50:40 sykopomp: That's a different argument, but then you might as well argue "no patent at all", which is fair enough. 16:50:49 sykopomp: they are ridiculously expensive in setting a manufacturing plant, which is what patent was supposed to secure. 16:50:57 and nowadays there's things like computer aided design, etc. so jet engine today would be developed faster, likely 16:51:04 sykopomp: I am just saying, some ideas need longer than 10 years to become exploitable. 16:51:11 beach: if you ask me, I would rather have no patents. I don't believe we need artificial monopolies to foster advancement. 16:51:17 fair enough 16:51:23 stassats: design is cheap, manufacturing is ridiculously expensive 16:51:31 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 without patent, you can be sure the idea will be stolen - My father is an example, kind of. 16:52:04 So ideas are cheap as they say 16:52:12 ^ 16:52:25 Guthur: ideas are cheap to work with. Making them reality is the expensive part. 16:52:36 so why pretend the ideas are so valuable? 16:52:42 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:52:42 Exactly, Patents make the idea expensive 16:52:50 which is bizarre. 16:53:03 just wait till humans evolve to not greedy egoistic individuals 16:53:57 p_l: if you (general you) want to make yourself and your idea valuable, you should also be skilled enough to be a valuable asset in implementing it. 16:54:00 stassats: Humans are already quite capable of that, but like all good things it requires a little effort 16:54:01 sykopomp: Well, I'll ask you that: You have a brilliant idea for a product, you don't have the means to manufacture it. Some time later, you suddenly find out that a giant corporation got away with your project and is going to rake millions of revenue on it, and you won't even get credit for the idea, not to mention money. 16:54:06 -!- rlb3 [~robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:54:07 stassats: Won't happen. We will become extinct way before that.. 16:54:22 sykopomp: it's easy to replace the inventor. 16:54:25 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229114116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 16:54:42 p_l: my ideas are cheap. I freely discuss them with people. 16:54:54 p_l: then replace the inventor. If he's not valuable, why keep him? 16:55:04 why create some artificial construct to pretend he's more valuable than he actually is? 16:55:31 what I care is about the product coming out to market and being available, and manufactured cheaply, and sold cheaply 16:55:36 patents actually hold this back. 16:55:50 merl15 [~merl@188-22-171-243.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:56:14 p_l: if anything, it's very exciting when an idea I discussed with someone is 'stolen' 16:56:55 I was about to wade into this discussion, but then I remembered that this is #lisp 16:56:55 for example, I was talking with a friend who runs a MUD a couple of months back about some ideas I had about applying merit-based economies to online games. 16:57:05 Xof: same :) 16:57:11 sorry :) 16:57:42 I created ##patent-chatter if anyone does want to move the conversation over there. 16:58:00 there is #lispcafe already, isn't it? 16:58:04 -!- hhexxx [~user@178.115.60.120.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Quit: do some work] 16:58:09 could use that, too 16:58:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-025.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:28 sykopomp: I won't participate because I basically agree with you, and I have nothing to add. 16:58:49 beach: :) 16:59:14 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:14 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:59:14 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:59:23 (besides, it is almost dinner time :) 17:00:01 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:33 I never knew there was #lispcafe 17:00:42 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:16 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 17:01:27 Very few clientèle 17:01:31 -!- Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01:44 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:39 *beach* goes to eat dinner. See you later. 17:02:47 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:02:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:03:08 bon apatite 17:03:14 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:22 If that is the right spelling 17:03:39 apatite is a mineral 17:03:44 lol 17:04:11 Well he needs all the right minerals and vitamins 17:05:29 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:19 I see elephant lives up to it's name.. After a week of use I removed all objects and is still 40 Mb. Turns out it has no garbage collection.. 17:07:26 gavino [~g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:47 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:08:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:08:46 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:31 long memory? 17:09:50 Or heavy weight? 17:10:24 turns out it does have garbage collection 17:10:35 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 17:12:34 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 17:13:53 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:29 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:15:08 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:15:44 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15:46 -!- swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:15:55 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 17:15:55 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 17:15:56 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:18:30 So, I'm just setting down to do a touch of runtime hacking and I find that I want an &rest argument in a C macro. 17:19:40 C99 has that, iirc. (or was it a gnu extension?) 17:20:09 varargs? 17:20:11 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:20:19 C99 seems to have variadic macros, yeah. 17:20:19 yes 17:20:49 gcc supports both the C99 variation, and the old pre-C99 gnu extension 17:21:52 Neat. Guess I need to hit google next. 17:22:04 _dgd [~dgd@34.104.233.166.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 17:22:36 knobo` [~user@ti100710a080-0223.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:24:14 -!- knobo [~user@90.149.5.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:26 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:29 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 17:28:31 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 17:28:31 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 17:29:01 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:32:23 waynew [~a11f4f59@gateway/web/freenode/x-ktxfljmgnbdbdxrk] has joined #lisp 17:32:45 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-110-47.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: adventures in macbook] 17:33:18 gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:06 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:38:30 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:38:36 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:39:27 Axius [~hi@109.97.62.8] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:39:39 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:40:56 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:17 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:31 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:43:47 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:44:33 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:51 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.62.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:02 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:50:53 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.142.75] has left #lisp 17:50:53 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:51:48 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 17:52:36 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:54:57 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has joined #lisp 17:55:36 hdurer__ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:48 -!- waynew [~a11f4f59@gateway/web/freenode/x-ktxfljmgnbdbdxrk] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:00:57 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:28 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:21 -!- gavino [~g@w005.z209031033.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:38 davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has joined #lisp 18:12:39 -!- hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has quit [Quit: hugod] 18:13:11 -!- stray_hound__ [~stray@c-24-245-50-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: stray_hound__] 18:15:14 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:15:31 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 18:16:43 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 18:16:56 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:17:01 hello 18:17:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:17:49 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-255-190.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:17:56 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:18:11 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:19 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082F45C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:14 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 18:19:18 Greetings lispers. 18:19:33 What is an alternative data structure to a doubly-linked list? 18:20:16 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C901.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:20:51 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:52 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 18:20:58 xor linked list? 18:22:15 -!- nipra [~nipra@115.118.218.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:22:20 Tree with backpointer? 18:22:23 milanj [~milanj_@79.101.250.206] has joined #lisp 18:22:28 Singly-linked list? 18:22:36 an array? 18:22:57 A lazily evaluated red-black sparse octree. 18:23:04 Ooh. 18:23:11 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:27 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:23:27 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:41 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:23:52 ... Oh, I know why this isn't working... Three levels in, INST expands to INST again. 18:25:05 Hmm, the obvious/naive solution to what I'm doing is a doubly-linked list, but I'm worried about the performance. It's probably a case of premature-optimization. I'm not a CS guy, but had it in my head that doubly-linked lists were nice educational structures, but real code used something more sophisticated. 18:25:42 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:13 is there a way to have bot sbcl x86 and x86_64 fasl's (like with ccl for example) ? 18:26:38 use asdf-binary-locations 18:26:40 tmh: it depends on what operations you need to be fast. 18:28:07 tmh: different data structures allow differen O() efficiency for different types of operations. Best to look at what you need to do and pick appropriately. (and change if your needs change) 18:28:14 stassats, thanks 18:28:25 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 18:29:19 Makoryu: R*Tree! But I haven't seen any good lazy implementations of that yet. And he's probably not handling geo-spatial stuff? 18:29:26 ¯\O_o/¯ 18:30:19 -!- somecodehere` [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:31 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:31:07 Xach & mle: I know I need efficient insertion, to maintain a sorted order, and also rearrange. I think I'm trying to prematurely optimize and would be better off just getting it working. That means just do a doubly-linked list. 18:31:17 Xach & mle: And Thanks. 18:31:52 tmh: rearrange? 18:32:16 tmh: what kind of rearrangement do you do if it must be sorted? 18:33:14 re-sort on another key, perhaps. 18:33:15 tmh: keeping it sorted also implies another operation that relies on it being sorted, e.g. "get the maximum/minimum value". is that the case for you? 18:33:49 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:34 if you need re-sorts, you might be better off with a vector-type thing and then multiple lazy-update index trees, assuming you need it for JOIN type operations. 18:34:55 Xach: Not sure how to describe arranging nodes versus sorting. The nodes have an order... I'm thinking. 18:35:13 I just implemented a heap with push-vector-extend, and it was pretty awesome 18:35:45 tmh: maybe when you can describe it, you'll know what you need for a data structure :) 18:36:38 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 18:36:54 Xach: Yeah, I think I need to just get something working to better clarify and define the drivers. 18:37:49 Want to see how phrase search works in my usenet archive search thing? 18:38:19 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7247.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:56 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:56 Xach: Thanks, but I'm not sure that's applicable and don't want to waste your time. I need to go back to staring at the code and visualizing data structures in space. 18:40:10 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:40:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:40:44 Oh, it's unrelated to anything you've just said. I'm trying to waste *your* time. 18:40:53 *tmh* chuckles 18:40:54 i just made a picture with graphviz and want to share it. 18:41:26 *nyef* has twenty minutes or so spare, provided that he didn't break his build again. 18:41:28 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:18 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:42:28 *sigh* 18:42:38 http://xach.com/tmp/search.pdf 18:42:40 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.154.237] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:43:23 Well, I did present SICL to a local audience of 6 people today. But I think they came because I said I would buy sandwiches (which I did). 18:43:38 beach: that was my primary reason for visiting the boston lisp meetings. 18:43:44 hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 Xach: For you? How far? 18:44:02 "Will pay attention for food." Times are hard. 18:44:13 tmh: Indeed, they are. 18:44:40 beach: 2 hours by train 18:44:50 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has left #lisp 18:44:52 Xach: Sure, that's worth it for some food. 18:45:08 Is there a way to find out information about a object? Information where it comes from, where it's used? 18:45:11 *p_l* makes looting runs during conferences. 18:45:34 beach: also, dcrawford is there sometimes. 18:45:45 and nyef, too! 18:45:46 I might be a little bit too pessimistic at the moment. Perhaps things will improve next week, which is a week of vacation (which means, the students are gone, so we can actually work for a change). 18:46:00 Xach: Ah, yes, I would go for that. 18:46:07 beach: That seems an odd definition of "vacation"... 18:46:32 nyef: That is unfortunately reality for me and most of my colleagues. 18:47:24 Xach: Pretty diagram, but seems lacking in explanation. 18:47:48 (Though I rather expect that you have the explanation either already written or at least planned.) 18:48:15 nyef: Yes, that's basically the first graphviz diagram i didn't instantly dislike for some sort of major layout issue. 18:48:21 tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:22 it still has layout issues, but it's least worst so far. 18:50:35 Mmm. I think I need to look at graphviz again, to see if I can persuade it to create some of the diagrams that I've been wanting. 18:51:01 -!- neutral [~bubble@p54AA728B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:51:01 Did you guys consider Tulip? 18:51:11 Tulip? 18:51:43 p_l: I thought it was world famous. It was made here in Bordeaux. Hold on, I'll find a URL. 18:52:20 http://tulip.labri.fr/TulipDrupal/ 18:53:29 The external format is Lisp-like as I recall. 18:53:58 (It may not be appropriate, I don't know the domain) 18:54:07 huh, dont change it if it works (i had some long running sbcl-1.0.29.54.rc1 multi-threaded server, and now it's crushes with latest version) ..... 18:54:24 beach: i didn't know about that, i'll take a look. i have a very clear idea of how i want my diagram to appear, but not as clear an idea about how to coax it from a program automatically. maybe i'll end up using a manual layout tool like visio or omnigraffle. 18:54:26 crushes? 18:54:43 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:55:04 I always wanted to write a slime contrib for something like that 18:55:16 Xach: Sure, like I said, I am only pointing you in the direction of local wisdom here. It may not be appropriate. 18:55:32 *crashes 18:55:33 if only to visualize sbcl ir1 18:56:21 neutral [~bubble@p54AA4E46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:36 -!- Phoodus [~foo@wsip-24-234-246-31.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:48 beach: looks cool 18:58:14 p_l: I have been told it's pretty good. 18:58:26 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 *Xach* has been working on making the erik naggum archive & archive search author-independent, and wants efficient search even when the search structures can't fit in memory. 18:59:51 p_l: But to me, it's a disappointment, because a traditional case of someone chosing the wrong language (in this case C++) for such an important task, and thus spending *way* more energy than necessary on getting it right. 19:00:54 *p_l* thinks he will use his hospital overnight stay to write a replacement for clbuild... clbuild starts to be too brittle 19:01:21 p_l: What are you doing in the hospital? 19:01:48 beach: making usre my little sis isn't lonely 19:02:22 p_l: Ah, good thing to do. How is she? 19:03:30 beach: getting better, though it is still far from finished. She should be released tomorrow, but I don't know when she will be finally free from all of this. 19:03:38 (it's been going on since august) 19:03:59 p_l: Have you told us about this before? I don't recall it! 19:04:22 beach: I did, I think 19:04:47 p_l: OK, I'll check the logs then. Give her some encouragement from me! 19:04:49 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:59 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:04:59 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:05:06 thx 19:05:35 fortunately, the hospital has a very nice atmosphere for kids. 19:05:54 How old is she? 19:06:17 9yo 19:06:34 her birthday was two days ago 19:06:52 Hmm. Yeah, that could feel bad. 19:07:29 fortunately we made her a birthday party before she had to go to hospital 19:11:30 nyef pasted "Too-clever-by-half PPC runtime hack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98211 19:12:04 benny` [~benny@i577A25AF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:18 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:23 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 19:15:01 afk 19:16:43 hrm, seems like sbcl does not understand (the nil (funcall continuation)) to mean that the function will never return.. and I thought I found something cute :-) 19:17:59 I think there might be some specific magic to say that, though... Unless there isn't. 19:18:28 you declare the return type of a function to be nil 19:18:32 +can 19:19:34 hoh 19:19:43 (funcall (the (function () nil) thunk)) 19:19:54 is the magic incantation 19:20:57 Lovely! If you violate that promise, sbcl will signal an error: "The value NIL is not of type NIL." 19:22:16 I hope no newbie ever trips into *that* 19:22:37 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:48 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:25:15 signals "A function with declared result type NIL returned: [...]" here 19:25:49 and doesn't signal anything for (funcall (the (function () nil) (lambda () nil))) 19:26:20 I tried it on a function passed as argument 19:27:08 tcr: still get that message here 19:27:21 perhaps you're on a different platform, architecture 19:28:09 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:28:25 hm wait I now get the same 19:28:56 I don't think it's reasonable to use THE for type checking, anyway 19:29:31 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30:07 Well then we disagree :-) 19:30:34 "The consequences are undefined if any result is not of the declared type." 19:31:07 not on my implementation, kthx 19:31:20 I'm not aware that the SBCL documentation defines them 19:31:21 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:30 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA95AA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:32:36 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:34:08 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:13 marioxcc [~user@200.92.179.167] has joined #lisp 19:36:32 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:37:29 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:38:14 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:38:41 skihero [~kish@59.164.105.53] has joined #lisp 19:39:46 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:40:44 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:47 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:46 prxq [~mommer@f052121163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:11 hi 19:44:50 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:59 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.55.184] has joined #lisp 19:49:18 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:49:50 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:42 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:31 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:43 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:06 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:56:24 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:58:37 -!- hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has quit [Quit: hugod] 19:59:55 hehe -> The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed. 20:00:32 The superstitious approach didn't work 20:01:34 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:02:02 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:05:10 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:26 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178223017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:29 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:06:45 coyo|pingout [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:43 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:54 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:07:59 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.55.184] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 20:09:24 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:47 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:11:19 tantan2 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 20:11:50 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:12:02 hugod [~hugod@192.197.121.133] has joined #lisp 20:12:08 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-159-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:11 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:34 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:41 bighouse [~bighouse@modemcable154.162-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:13:49 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:13:58 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:54 francogrex [~user@27.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:15:11 -!- drhodes [~none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:12 rlpowell_ [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 20:16:18 drhodes [~none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:58 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:17:08 -!- rlpowell_ is now known as rplowell 20:17:09 saikat__ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:13 -!- rplowell is now known as rlpowell 20:17:26 -!- saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:51 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:57 -!- saikat__ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:00 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:08 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.115.199.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:18:30 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:19:49 I am reporting that spammer freak polluting CLL newsgroup; hope it helps 20:19:53 -!- saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:54 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:54 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:19:54 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 20:20:01 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:10 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:21:19 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 20:21:41 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:55 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.55.184] has joined #lisp 20:22:23 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:22:29 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:46 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 20:24:36 newToLisp234 [~some@70.96.16.246] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 Mornin, all. I'm used to using SBCL on my Linux bux, but I'm attempting to get a portable development environment set up for Common Lisp on my flash drive. I _believe_ I've properly configured my Emacs, but I'm wondering what CL implementation might be preferred for a portable, Windows-type environment. 20:26:46 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:06 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-159-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:27:43 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-25-96.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 I believe ccl works better on mswin http://trac.clozure.com/ccl 20:30:19 or clisp 20:30:24 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:30:29 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:33:32 nuntius: Thank you - I'll check that out and see if I can portable-ize it :) 20:35:03 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 20:35:36 p_l|hospital [~bc925455@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvrtpscugjvtgaax] has joined #lisp 20:35:42 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:54 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:35:57 hi from the hospital 20:36:30 junkie! 20:36:39 newToLisp234: Clozure has a fast compiler that compiles somewhat nice code, and has native threads on all supported platforms. 20:36:45 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:54 newToLisp234: it also plays much nicer with SLIME than clisp does... 20:37:11 -!- skihero [~kish@59.164.105.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 269 seconds] 20:37:21 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:37:21 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:37:37 sykopomp: is newToLisp234 on win32? 20:37:56 p_l|hospital: yes 20:38:11 p_l|hospital: he was asking about setting up a portable environment he could carry with him to windows machines. 20:38:12 sykopomp: I've been burned by CLISP recently already - exactly what you were talking about, it doesn't play nicely with SLIME. 20:38:28 p_l|hospital: also, the |hospital is somewhat worrisome ;) 20:38:43 newToLisp234: from what I'm told, CLISP is a pretty decent environment by itself. 20:38:46 newToLisp234: then I second the suggestion for clozure CL, just remember to keep two versions - last time I checked, 32bit CCL didn't work on win64 20:39:02 sykopomp: I'm here to take care of lil sis. 20:39:04 skihero [~kish@59.164.105.53] has joined #lisp 20:39:16 p_l|hospital: heh 20:39:24 p_l|hospital: may your lil sis get well soon 20:39:32 p_l|hospital: That could cause a problem - I use xp 32 and win7 64 daily XD 20:39:58 prxq: it will take a while - it's I think 4th or 5th hospital visit, and it 20:40:13 will take time before everything will be taken care of 20:40:18 -!- skihero [~kish@59.164.105.53] has left #lisp 20:40:41 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:40:49 newToLisp234: to quote "Known Problems" from CCL release notes: "The 32-bit Windows lisp still doesn't run on 64-bit Windows." 20:40:51 peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has joined #lisp 20:42:49 newToLisp234: are you just learning lisp or are you planning a serious project in the future? 20:43:39 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.115.199.228] has joined #lisp 20:44:44 p_l|hospital: Facepalm. CCL may be out for Windows development. I am just learning Lisp, but I hope to use it as a backend for web projects as well as any miscellaneous utilities, etc. I might want/need to make. I would love, but don't expect, to find an employer to hire me for Lisp - as it stands, I assume I'll end up doing Lisp as a hobby and a more "conventional" language as a career. 20:44:49 newToLisp234: The issue is only if you're trying to run a 32bit binary on 64bit. You can just compile binaries for the respective platforms. 20:45:08 so you can still use CCL on both 64bit and 32bit. 20:45:31 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:33 newToLisp234: it's easy to go around the issue for a final product or anything, and I'd recommend sticking with 64bit on servers anyway 20:46:25 p_l|hospital: I swap between Win7-64 at home and WinXP-32 at school. I'd recommend 64bit going forward too, esp. for servers, but that's not the environment I'm on right now. :) 20:47:19 sykopomp: If the configurations are identical between the two compilations, which I would assume, then perhaps a batch file (or Elisp script in site-start.el) to swap the files depending on environment would do the trick. 20:49:39 newToLisp234: for a final binary it's easy to make a small launcher to start the correct image 20:49:48 newToLisp234: yup 20:50:24 it should also be quite easy to make emacs recognize which binary to run - the only problem you might have is to get various libs in 64bit versions if you need anything for FFI 20:51:28 p_l|hospital: FFI == foreign function interface? 20:51:38 yeah 20:51:58 for obvious reasons, you can't FFI from 64bit code to 32bit code without some really weird hackery ;-) 20:52:05 ... I just gave myself away as an Algol-descendant programmer >.> 20:54:32 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 20:55:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:55:35 cid` [~cid@178-25-28-89-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:59 quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:34 cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:50 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:00 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-159-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:05 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.55.184] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:03:26 what's the cl equivalent of python's hexdigest? 21:05:00 cddr: ironclad? 21:05:13 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-159-97.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:59 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:09 seems a bit of an overhead for my purposes though, this is just to hash a password in order to send it to an xml database 21:06:12 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:06:49 cddr: md5 will do? 21:07:18 md5 seems to all it will accept 21:07:48 http://www.inf.uni-konstanz.de/dbis/basex/ 21:08:07 then use md5 lib 21:09:25 *beach* hates questions like "what's the equivalent of in CL" because it assumes everyone knows "", whereas if you were to do the analogue channel # referring to some Lisp feature, you would probably be rediculed, or at least you would get total silence. 21:09:42 -!- vtl [~user@rb5bi64.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:26 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:10:30 sorry beach 21:10:36 ComputerNewbie [~adsfasdf@c-67-180-200-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 hey 21:10:49 is scheme better 21:10:51 cddr: Not a biggie, and certainly not restricted to you. 21:10:51 or common lisp 21:11:02 cddr: Its alright that next question is worse 21:11:11 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:11:16 ComputerNewbie: This channel is mostly about CL, so the response could be biased. 21:11:22 oh i see 21:11:28 ComputerNewbie: That's a silly question to just come in and ask. 21:11:29 but i thought LISP has 2 main dialects 21:11:33 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.206] has joined #lisp 21:11:37 and scheme/common lisp are the two 21:11:39 oh dear 21:11:41 hehe 21:11:47 so why would #lisp be mostly common lisp 21:11:51 does that mean common lisp is the mian dialect? 21:11:54 ComputerNewbie: And we have written in "Lisp" for some decades now. 21:11:55 ComputerNewbie: Because Scheme is not Lisp. 21:11:59 the early bird! 21:12:13 ? 21:12:21 Scheme is not lisp? 21:12:23 tsuru: scheme is older than CL 21:12:32 ComputerNewbie: Do you see Lisp in its name? I don't either. 21:12:33 :) 21:12:34 scheme is a dialect of lisp 21:12:40 sykopomp: but we got #lisp first 21:12:40 and so is common lisp 21:12:40 why? 21:12:41 :) 21:12:49 why is scheme a dialect of lisp? 21:12:52 why let the troll have its fun? 21:13:00 adeht: I'm having fun! :( 21:13:03 wikipedia said scheme is a dialect of lisp 21:13:04 i can paste it 21:13:10 ComputerNewbie: Accept tradition! #lisp is mostly about CL despite its name. 21:13:17 ComputerNewbie: wikipedia is not a reliable source. 21:13:21 neither is the internet. 21:13:29 sykopomp, i went to the link where wikipedia got its source 21:13:33 and its a credible source 21:13:41 #scheme is for scheme 21:14:00 i jus twant to know for sure is commonlisp commonly refer to as lisp now 21:14:07 so basically that means commonlisp is the main dialect? 21:14:09 ComputerNewbie: Oh, you must be right, and we're all wrong. Imagine the quality of the response you'll get here! 21:14:26 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA95AA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:14:31 so is common lisp the main dialect for lisp now? 21:14:41 ComputerNewbie: Common Lisp is better, and it's the only existing dialect of lisp that you should consider. 21:14:49 cddr: a breif check of cliki suggests there are different packages for hash digests... maybe they have a function that will automatically hexify it for you.... 21:14:56 brief even 21:14:57 ComputerNewbie: Since you already know that we are wrong, my advice for you would be not to believe anything we say, and go ask someone else! 21:14:58 ComputerNewbie: basically #lisp should be renamed #commonlisp 21:15:00 you should head to #scheme. Possibly mention this fact, and see how it goes. Good luck! 21:15:05 Adamant: ok i see 21:15:20 but it's not going to be, and this gets people confused as a result 21:15:27 i see 21:15:40 I don't think you do. 21:15:41 it shouldn't be that confusing, the topic clearly says "Common Lisp"... 21:15:42 also some non-CL discussion is OK, but mostly as it related to CL 21:16:00 foom: #lisp implies all Lisps to a lot of folks. 21:16:05 gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:11 Adamant: a lot of folks can't read /topic. 21:16:13 at least ones that aren't already on the channel 21:16:15 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:17 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.6] has joined #lisp 21:16:21 ComputerNewbie: common lisp is larger and better for programming. scheme is mostly taught in some universities but hardly used for practical 21:16:31 Adamant: that's fine, but then it's clarified to "common lisp" by the topic, yay. 21:16:39 francogrex ahh i see 21:16:40 nice 21:16:45 scheme is a toy language, yes. 21:16:48 neither are particularly commonly used for 'practical', don't kid yourself. 21:17:26 but I should drop it 21:17:39 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:07 *francogrex* currently experimenting with this library: cl-x86-asm 21:19:06 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:07 ComputerNewbie: You don't just appear in a channel, trying to teach everyone that the topic hear is something different than what all the participants have agreed it's about for year. If you want to participate, you spend some time listening, asking small, but not controversial, questions, and then after a while, you may have opinions. 21:20:15 ComputerNewbie: Imagine I went to #python and lectured them that the topic is wrong because it has nothing to do with snakes. 21:20:15 beach: you do if you're just trolling, ofc 21:20:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:20:52 sykopomp: right. But ComputerNewbie didn't look like a troll. Just confused. 21:21:22 beach: he didn't? Seems like a troll to me. 21:21:41 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:00 sykopomp: Hmm, after a glass of wine, my judgement may be impaired. Sorry if so. 21:22:10 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:22:12 beach: the solution is more wine, of course. 21:22:15 having read the first half of the backlog 21:22:17 I agree with beach 21:22:29 you're kind of exacerbating things. 21:22:37 a newbie wouldn't call himself ComputerNewbie 21:22:41 ^ 21:22:49 well, he might 21:22:57 yeah I guess it could go both ways 21:23:01 :P 21:23:04 but this has already gotten more attention than it deserves. More lisp talk! :) 21:23:08 yay! 21:23:18 Definitely! 21:23:19 seriously though, the benefit of the doubt rarely hurts. 21:23:29 hehe, for what its worth, i wasnt trolling 21:23:46 the parens got stuck in my eyes and now they bleed 21:23:58 ComputerNewbie: Yeah, yeah, that's what they all say. 21:24:22 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:27 ComputerNewbie: then the serious answer is "a subjective question like that will only get you subjective answers, which might be strongly coupled with strong emotions" 21:24:37 rapacity: I have never seen a bleeding parenthesis. 21:24:55 ComputerNewbie: so the solution is to rephrase your question. For example, "What is the difference between CL and Scheme?" 21:25:17 There bleedin' parenthesis everywhere, this is lisp afterall 21:25:38 and the answer to that is Argument X is not a NUMBER: "CL" 21:26:04 right 21:26:04 adeht: zing! 21:26:35 adeht: Neat! 21:26:46 sytse [sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 21:27:22 ComputerNewbie: So essentially, you rephrase your question. or you change your nick (or both). 21:27:29 what's the set-difference ? 21:27:44 (set-difference "CL" "SCHEME") -> "C" 21:27:48 my nick? 21:27:55 s/C/L/ 21:28:11 whats wrong wiht my nick :p 21:28:15 is there a language L ? 21:28:23 ComputerNewbie: I am making a joke. Get a life! 21:28:27 lol! 21:28:29 :p 21:28:45 yes there is a language called L 21:29:10 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:29:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_programming_language 21:29:55 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:17 lists 3 different langs 21:30:52 adeht: but CL is a number... 21:31:16 tsuru: do you go by the name Pythagoras? 21:31:37 tsuru: but it's far from being >9k 21:32:05 adeht: :) if only 21:32:05 but SCHEME isn't a roman numeral 21:32:19 base 36, people 21:32:31 ComputerNewbie: So assuming you came here and instead asked "Hello, I am a total Lisp ignorant, and I would like to know the difference between Scheme and Common Lisp", I am sure other people (like Zhivago) would be happy to answer that question. 21:33:11 -!- knobo` [~user@ti100710a080-0223.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:43 beach: ohohoho 21:34:15 i just wanted to know whether this channel which is called #lisp, only about common lisp and about scheme, and whether that was because common lisp is now the main dialect 21:34:53 only about comon lisp and not* 21:35:26 ComputerNewbie: Common Lisp is just one of several existing dialects that trace their roots back to old LISP. This channel is about Common Lisp, and it happens to use #lisp as the channel name. 21:35:27 base 36 CL - SCHEME --> base 10 -1714019969 21:35:41 in conversations, Lisp often refers to Common Lisp as well. 21:35:56 as far as popularity goes... elisp is a pretty huge dialect :) 21:36:10 autolisp also 21:36:16 i think it is fair to say that common lisp is the main dialect 21:36:19 or base 36 -SCHE9T 21:36:41 prxq: that depends on your metric :-) 21:36:43 tcr: I didn't know autolisp was that large. 21:37:09 now try that in Scheme.. 21:37:16 tcr: greatness! :-) 21:37:21 smugness? 21:37:26 java, c, c++ are all ALGOL 21:37:33 so is scheme and common lisp really different? 21:37:36 what's the most popular algol dialect? 21:37:41 darkestkhan [~darkestkh@host137.217.146.194.generacja.pl] has joined #lisp 21:37:46 ComputerNewbie: Is C and Java really different? 21:37:52 rapacity: hm, no. I don't think that is fair 21:37:55 tcr yeah 21:38:06 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:38:06 ComputerNewbie: Why do you think so? 21:38:14 because all the function names are different 21:38:16 They look pretty similiar 21:38:21 not really... 21:38:32 u have classes 21:38:35 and c doesnt 21:38:41 and in java, they dont use #include 21:38:43 i don't think so - for me java and c (espiecally c++) are almost the same 21:38:44 or #define and stuff like that 21:39:00 also they dont have any pointers like * notation 21:39:01 ComputerNewbie: well, you have classes in Common Lisp, but not in Scheme 21:39:02 ComputerNewbie: Scheme doesn't have classes, Common Lisp does. 21:39:10 ahh i see 21:39:29 wow. C and C++ are not the same by any stretch of the imagination. 21:39:29 Common Lisp has separate namespaces for a variety of things. 21:39:32 I sincerly doubt so 21:39:44 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 21:39:50 Scheme code needs to be name-mangled in order to prevent naming conflicts because everything is stuffed in a single environment. 21:39:52 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:52 someone who knows java mihgt not know what a c program does 21:39:54 not namespace* 21:39:57 because of all the * 21:40:20 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:40:25 ComputerNewbie: The difference between dialects is somewhat similar to the difference between C dialects and descendants. 21:40:28 there are module systems on various scheme implementations/many scheme implementations have their own object systems 21:40:55 rapacity: I was talking about environments, not namespaces. The terminology has just stuck with me :) 21:40:59 the important differences are in the guiding philosophies 21:41:03 ah 21:41:18 rapacity: also, if it's an implementation extension, it's not really part of the language. 21:41:24 for starters, C++ has an undecidable grammar. And braindamage to spare 21:41:35 so Scheme doesn't really have namespaces either (although I think r6rs does?) 21:41:39 "undecidable grammar"? come on, it's not that bad! 21:41:50 r6rs does 21:41:54 prxq: it's pretty easy to make a decision about C++ grammar: "It stinks!" 21:42:04 ComputerNewbie: when first starting, the key is get good with one language first and not worry about all the possible differences in languages you'll encounter in the future 21:42:08 sykopomp: ...that's what i meant :-) 21:42:15 prxq: >:) 21:42:16 it's better not to view Scheme and Common Lisp as dialects of the same language family (Lisp), but to view them as separate families 21:42:25 (the Scheme family and the Lisp family) 21:42:31 The C++ grammar is perfectly well specified -- it just depends on state built up from prior parts of the file, like lisp. 21:42:34 they're pretty different languages, in any case. 21:43:23 im about to ask a very subjective question... is it practical to learn common lisp today for anything? 21:43:31 foom: iirc, you can build completely ambiguous cases 21:43:40 prxq: ambiguous to humans, maybe. :) 21:43:47 foom: no, to machines 21:44:13 ComputerNewbie: that's not a subjective question. some persons here use CL for their living 21:44:40 in all practicality... for most* programming jobs 21:44:42 ComputerNewbie: so it _can_ be practical. if you're talking about yourself -- it's up to you to decide, indeed. 21:45:03 ComputerNewbie: it's practical but the learning curve is high 21:45:04 ComputerNewbie: yes it is. but if your question really is "if I learn common lisp, will I get rich or be guaranteed a job using Lisp" the answer is less certain. 21:45:27 ok 21:45:27 ComputerNewbie: (depending on your background) 21:45:39 well i know java/c/c++ 21:45:43 it seems i can do most things... 21:45:52 The learning curve of most languages is pretty high, if you wish to be proficient 21:45:55 but a friend of mien tells me the best thing he ever did was learn lisp 21:45:55 ComputerNewbie: I've been using lisp at work. I do QA for a living right now. 21:46:22 ComputerNewbie: it's useful enough that I can use it to test a pretty large PHP codebase, hooking up to a MySQL database without much trouble. 21:46:40 so basically, I'm using it to write random testing scripts :) 21:46:44 ComputerNewbie: it's more practical and fruitful to stop asking these questions and just spend a while learning the language, then decide for yourself. 21:46:46 Even javascript has its on peculiar subtleties, which need to be learnt and master to be truely proficient with it 21:46:52 others here use CL to write more serious software. 21:46:54 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:46:59 skyopomp And your boss probably thinks you use PHP and are just amazingly productive? :) 21:47:05 ComputerNewbie: do you know about the free lisp books online? 21:47:07 ComputerNewbie: Learning Lisp often means the first time that you also learn language design and implementation. 21:47:31 ComputerNewbie: Hence a deeper understanding for programming languages, and hence programming. 21:47:50 ComputerNewbie: Lisp is probably not the only way to acquire the knowledge, but it's a natural by-product from learning Lisp. 21:47:53 newToLisp234: no, my bosses all know that I write this stuff in CL. They knew I coded CL as my main language before they hired me. 21:48:12 sykopomp: Awesome! 21:48:13 newToLisp234: it's not production code, which would have to be in PHP, so it's no problem, and it helps me get the job done. 21:48:20 sykopomp: Lisp is so cool for that 21:48:38 tcr: for random hacky scripts? Yes. 21:48:43 It means I have a repl to test at. :) 21:48:55 sykopomp: actually for test dsls 21:49:44 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 21:49:51 sykopomp: See e.g. http://paste.lisp.org/display/97634 or http://paste.lisp.org/display/88832 21:49:54 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:16 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-171-243.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:50:30 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:50:38 It's also very subkective the choice of a prpgramming language; it's a preference a tendency that is hard to explain 21:50:56 tcr: I'm not even getting that fancy. I'm just using Lisp to mess around with MySQL to autogenerate data. 21:51:00 mostly 21:51:25 tsuru: i dont 21:51:26 I've dabbed in almost all existing languages and only lisp fits my perosnality 21:51:38 I know of only one local (Portland, Oregon) company that provides Lisp solutions. 21:51:44 It's an ISP. 21:52:26 cmsimon: I would be surprised, given the number of tech companies in Portland, if folks weren't using it internally at a company. 21:52:31 cmsimon: url? 21:52:36 not that Lisp isn't without its annoyances. No need to paint it as a perfect language... 21:52:48 sykopomp: all is relative 21:53:25 prxq: well, some annoyances are more significant :) 21:53:30 is there a way of keeping the leading zero in (format nil "~x" #x0e) 21:53:40 sykopomp: Dunno, flaws are mostly omissions not real flaws 21:53:41 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:53:56 tcr: www.spiretech.com 21:54:01 Adamant: Agreed. 21:54:16 cddr ~2,'0X 21:54:23 cool, cheers 21:54:26 dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:54 -!- darkestkhan [~darkestkh@host137.217.146.194.generacja.pl] has left #lisp 21:56:05 tcr: well, you know. Somehow, the way the language was designed seems to have let to certain patterns in implementations, and the omissions cause their own share of problems. 21:56:18 but it's not like I think any other language does a better job, overall :\ 22:01:39 *beach* is glad he went away for more important activities while others were discussing the difference between Scheme and CL, or between C and Java. 22:02:10 *p_l|hospital* sometimes wishes for a nicer syntax to access hash tables, though... 22:03:05 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:03:10 so make one. :) 22:03:11 Are there other sites other then lispdoc for poking around documentation of lots of libraries? 22:03:13 p_l|hospital: is there something stopping you from writing that syntax yourself? :) 22:03:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:03:26 p_l|hospital: that kind of thing is trivial. There's much more serious issues to worry about. 22:03:51 francogrex: It's not hard to explain at all. All can be explained by ignorance and performance-orientedness. 22:04:08 beach: when a theory explains everything.. 22:04:12 (declare (inline hget)) (defun hget (table key) (gethash key table)) 22:04:35 sykopomp: actually, I'm looking into it right now :) 22:05:09 though my biggest question seems to be "how to choose a syntax for reader macro to avoid messing with any other package" 22:05:19 adeht: I am sure you agree with me that this is not magic, and that mostly people choose out of ignorance. I grant you that there are exceptions of course. 22:05:24 p_l|hospital: reader syntax is kind of overkill for the task 22:05:31 imo 22:05:35 adeht: It's all bout statistics. 22:05:52 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:32 sykopomp: I 22:06:33 beach: personally I don't value statistics as much ;) 22:06:46 have grown used to slightly less verbose syntax for hashes :) 22:06:55 damn, different keyboard layout... 22:07:12 p_l|hospital: I have grown more used to using functions instead of murdering something's usefulness with arbitrary syntax 22:07:36 (@ table 'foo) versus table['foo] 22:07:43 adeht: I don't either, but you somehow have to deal with a case when a thing doesn't explain *everything* but only *lots of things*. 22:07:46 @ is just a function name :) 22:07:57 you can map it, reduce with it, etc. 22:08:03 no such thing with this [] silliness. 22:08:09 beach: yes, that means a better theory should be sought 22:08:33 Hello! Could you tell me why doesnt work something like (reduce #'or '(t nil t))? 22:08:36 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslex118.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755d9d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:45 sykopomp: sure, I'm going to use something like that as replacement for gethash etc, 22:08:46 mrSpec: OR is a macro 22:08:53 adeht: Right, but there is a tendency in industry to say "if your theory doesn't explain everyting, then I'll do whatever I want". 22:08:56 -!- tantan2 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:09:11 p_l|hospital: then (defun @ (table key) (gethash key table)) :) 22:09:14 ah, so is there any other way to do something like this? 22:09:16 sykopomp: I'm currently looking through various approaches to choose one that messes the least while being pleasant to me :) 22:09:16 lookie there, no readmacros. 22:09:17 mrSpec: (If your question is now, Why is it a macro?, think about it!) 22:09:18 sykopomp: I pure taking that as well 22:09:31 adeht: Which is kind of wrong as well, because science might have some hints that are not proofs. 22:09:31 (@ table 'foo) is pretty neat 22:09:42 Guthur: I don't like it that much. 22:09:50 mrSpec: (reduce #'(lambda (x y) (or x y) '(t nil t) :initial-value nil) 22:09:58 I use hashget. ;) 22:10:09 mrSpec: (some #'identity '(t nil t)) 22:10:13 adeht: I particularly like the article by Hudak at all for that. 22:10:20 tcr: thanks! 22:10:53 mrSpec: (find t '(t nil t)) 22:11:01 beach: we all have to cling to some part of our simplistic models some part of the time 22:11:29 btw, what are opinions of #lisp denizens on SERIES? 22:11:45 adeht: Do we? My job is not to! Though it's tough somtimes, I admin. 22:11:45 p_l|hospital: I hate it. 22:12:02 *admit 22:12:11 p_l|hospital: but it would be nice to have some of its features, along with compatibility with CL's sequence library. 22:12:15 sykopomp: oh? 22:12:35 p_l|hospital: I think the API is hideous and unlispy :) 22:13:17 sykopomp: I might agree partially about the API, but I was really interested in something like that with better integration with various tools available :) 22:13:45 I love the API, but the implementation is scary and involves too much shadowing 22:13:46 beach: perhaps I didn't write it well.. we can never be free of assumption (logical aspect) or certainty (psychological aspect).. we can doubt our assumptions, but not all of them at the same time 22:13:52 <3 series 22:13:53 I'm trying to abuse semaphores to solve a concurrency problem and having some issues. Would anyone be up for trying to help me a few minutes? http://bit.ly/a3kvNY 22:13:59 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has left #lisp 22:14:10 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:19 pbalogh_ [~pbalogh@12.14.38.6] has joined #lisp 22:15:04 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:15:29 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@12.14.38.6] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:16:01 *p_l|hospital* basically wants to build a common API that could be used similarly to Linq, Sequel and similar projects, which would work on all types included in CL and possibly interoperate with various libraries. 22:16:02 beach: which Hudak article? 22:16:31 redline6561: what do you want to achieve? 22:17:19 laynor [~ale@109.78.28.252] has joined #lisp 22:17:27 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:17:28 tcr: I have four threads accessing, basically, an array. They work in separate areas and occasionally persist that work to long-term storage. I'm trying to catch them while they're all between jobs and change what's in the array. 22:17:34 which system would you recommend me for unit testing? 22:18:48 -!- pbalogh_ [~pbalogh@12.14.38.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:18:51 sykopomp: as for hashes, I was thinking of something like your @ function and a "hash-let" macro 22:19:07 "hash-let"? 22:19:09 -!- francogrex [~user@27.96-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:30 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:38 sykopomp: wait, I'll paste an example of what I'm thinking of 22:19:39 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:20:03 tcr: I wrapped the call which gives each thread new work with a mutex. When they finish "old work" they persist it to long term storage and signal a semaphore, when they get "new work" (which requires them to have the mutex) they wait (decrement) the semaphore. 22:20:40 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 22:20:58 tcr: I wrote a modified version of sb-thread:wait-on-semaphore to test for zerop instead of plusp and execute a body when that condition became true. The condition becomes true but it never seems to wake up. 22:21:17 tcr: The modified version is the macro wait-until-zero. 22:21:24 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:30 -!- neutral [~bubble@p54AA4E46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:57 lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 22:22:08 p_l|hospital pasted "hash-let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98230 22:22:15 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:22:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:22:17 p_l|hospital: what's wrong with alexandria:[ap]list-hash-table 22:22:46 adeht: hmm, I haven't looked much in alexandria, I'll take a look. 22:23:21 hmm 22:23:21 (that's why I prefer to run my wild ideas through #lisp - someone probably thought of this before and knows where to point me to ^^; ) 22:23:36 redline6561: What work do they perform? Why do you want to use multiple threads? 22:23:37 I've been playing with the idea of having an extensible let-like construct with 'binders' 22:23:55 sounds like bind 22:24:00 sykopomp: various "extended 22:24:02 adeht: http://www.haskell.org/papers/NSWC/jfp.ps 22:24:05 tcr: kinda like that, yeah 22:24:11 " let/bind stuff sounds useful to me. 22:24:23 tcr: I've been wondering how to make it operate in parallel, though, and that seems a bit trickier. 22:24:32 I mean, by 'in parallel', I mean let vs let* 22:24:49 tcr: They interpret a made up assembly language. Using multiple threads is part of the project requirements. It is a school project...I'm just the only one that asked to do it in Common Lisp. Sort of a strange project for an OS course, too. :-/ 22:24:59 beach: thanks 22:25:12 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 22:25:19 adeht: No problem. I use it in one of my courses. 22:25:49 hello LaPingvino 22:26:03 hello 22:26:04 redline6561: that actually sounds like a fun excercise 22:26:24 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:26:25 redline6561: I'm still not sure what your problem is.. it's late over here and my concentration is very low :-) 22:26:28 redline6561: use a recursive mutex that triggers the array modification code when no thread holds it. 22:26:42 how is everything? 22:26:51 busy at work lately... 22:26:53 p_l|hospital: I suppose you could have a `with-hash-table-slots' macro thingy.. I just never really had a desire for such a macro 22:27:04 tcr: It is fun! I just think it's a little strange for an OS project. It's closer to a pl interpreter in my head. 22:27:37 p_l|hospital: I did write a href accessor that supports hash-table nesting.. but I'm not sure nested hash-tables are such a great idea most of the time ;) 22:27:47 adeht: with-hash-slots may be neat, if you were using hash tables as dumb objects... 22:27:50 LaPingvino: For me: fine! As of a few hours ago, I am "spring vacation" meaning there are no students around, and I can finally get some work done. 22:27:58 but if your data is that structured, I'm not sure why you're even using a hash table, tbh. 22:28:03 LaPingvino: What about yourself? 22:28:06 sykopomp: indeed 22:28:12 hello :) 22:28:13 redline6561: I suspect it is there to teach you a little about concurrency and such :) 22:28:14 ah great :) 22:28:42 for me, work became more certain as the neighbour company takes care of us now :) 22:29:16 hostile takeover? 22:29:16 tcr: The problem is I wrote this macro http://paste.lisp.org/+23SN which should let me wrap a body, wait on a semaphore to reach zero, hold up others that need the semaphore while I execute the body, and then return it. The condition comes true...but it doesn't seem to wake up. 22:29:28 tcr: But if you need sleep I appreciate that it's late on that ocean. And thanks for listening. :) 22:29:39 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:29:45 beach: good neighbours 22:29:52 beach: we needed it 22:30:17 beach: but as we are a company that actually knows how to program 22:30:25 p_l|hospital: Looking up stuff on recursive mutexes now. And learning about concurrency makes sense, yeah, I just would expect an assignment to write a crummy, proto-filesystem in C/C++ or some other low-level chore. Also, thanks for your thoughts. 22:30:29 LaPingvino: Good! Does that change your strategy announced here? 22:30:46 beach: things remain as they are now :) 22:30:47 redline6561: try using channels! 22:30:48 :D 22:30:49 beach: what an odd article 22:31:11 sykopomp: I did consider using chanl and have it locally but wasn't quite sure how to structure things. I think I was a little confused by your condition example. :D 22:31:17 prxq: the one by Hudak et all? I find it brilliant! 22:31:18 -!- licoresse [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:31:32 beach: why? 22:31:49 redline6561: that condition example is a bit of a clever hack ;) 22:32:03 redline6561: and I have no idea how you'd structure this with channels either :) 22:32:04 redline6561: well, another name would be reentrant mutex - basically, a mutex that consists of an integer, and any value other than 0 means it's locked - an easy way to lock a resource from processing unless every other thread has let go 22:32:18 beach: personally I dislike Haskell, so I hope it's worth the reading ;) 22:32:27 prxq: because it "indicates" (not "proves") that you can save 4 years on a 5 year project by speding 8 days of effort. 22:32:54 adeht: You should not read it because of the Haskell message. 22:33:03 beach: link please? 22:33:14 p_l|hospital: That sounds perfect, just like what I want. If only there was an sb-contrib library that packaged it nicely. ;) 22:33:20 p_l|hospital: see the logs or scrollbacks. 22:33:22 beach: I still need a nice Git-repos 22:33:31 I absolutely need Git to work well 22:33:41 CVS doesn't cut it for me 22:33:43 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:57 but I don't have the right experience to get that up quickly 22:33:59 p_l|hospital: Though my macro should behave that way...it just doesn't seem to get woken from its condition loop which is what's confusing me. 22:34:03 redline6561: you can make do with IF and ATOMIC-INCF and ATOMIC-DECF, plus a global variable :) 22:34:05 so it lingers a little 22:34:21 LaPingvino: how about reading "pro git"? 22:34:27 p_l|hospital: Yeah, that might be worth a try... 22:34:30 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:34:34 I DO know how to do Git 22:34:48 sykopomp: If you do think of a way to structure it, just say my name and I'll appear. ;) 22:34:51 LaPingvino: so? 22:34:52 prxq: so it "shows" that industry is totally wrong when it estimates the value of everyone knowing a particular language is infinite, which is currently the case. 22:34:57 where's the problem? 22:35:00 just CVS is hard for me 22:35:12 but I would like to have a CVS repos as Git 22:35:14 with history 22:35:21 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 22:35:22 and to keep that in sync where possible 22:35:29 -!- Younder [~jthing@212.251.245.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:35 beach: ah ok. Maybe I'm blind to that because I do agree with that point you are making :-) 22:35:39 lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 22:35:41 with svn that's easy 22:35:50 git-svn is a piece of cake 22:35:53 LaPingvino: i see 22:36:03 but CVS seems to bite me... 22:36:24 good lord, people still use CVS? 22:36:26 poor things. 22:36:38 Climacs resides in CVS 22:36:44 SBCL resides in CVS. 22:36:47 I want a nice transfer 22:36:49 "the /largest/ of software developers" <- I hope that's not about obesity ;) 22:36:54 nyef: I thought it had finally moved to git :\ 22:36:58 yeah I thought SBCL was gonna switch to git. :P 22:37:10 LaPingvino: Fix it! 22:37:10 AFAIK, while all the developers use git, the main repository is still CVS. 22:37:13 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-25-96.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:37:13 SBCL better do that really 22:37:17 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-13-165.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:37:18 CVS is nasty, especially when it comes to proxies. 22:37:29 huh? 22:37:47 can anyone help me with a good Git-configuration on the particular Climacs CVS repos? 22:37:54 foom: have you tried using CVS from behind a HTTP proxy or crazy firewall? 22:37:58 you mean when you are on a network that thinks HTTP is the only protocol that exists? 22:38:18 foom: yeah 22:38:28 something that is way too common for my liking 22:38:32 yeah, sucks to be you...guess what, the whole world isn't HTTP! 22:38:32 I use cvs2svn to make git mirrors 22:38:55 you can setup a tunnel to get yourself real internet. :) 22:39:54 prxq: All I am asking my students to do, once they go to work in industry, is to question choices of program language based on perceived ideas of it, and instead consider languages that would make them more productive. 22:39:55 foom: right now, I manage by hijacking BSD socket API per-application 22:40:03 nuntius pasted "cvs to git" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98234 22:40:05 beach: the critics have a point. I'd say darcs was too cute for its own good, with its exponential complexity worst case that was not supposed to happen, but happened. 22:40:10 p_l|hospital: sounds like a good way. 22:40:37 better would be to use a tun/tap. 22:41:01 prxq: Why are you telling me. I don't care that much between the difference between darcs and git. 22:41:03 (or ppp) 22:41:05 foom: the thing is, that CVS *does* support HTTP proxies, at least certain implementations, but the syntax would make usage of it in, let's say, clbuild, troublesome. 22:41:24 foom: I'd need the other side to support it as well 22:41:32 prxq: I am trying to get work done. 22:41:37 beach: because darcs was written in Haskel, and the "too cute for its own good" is a quote from the article :-) 22:41:46 SSH has built-in limited SOCKS5 proxy, which is what I'm using right now 22:42:11 p_l|hospital: SSH has built-in tun support too 22:42:18 prxq: That was a problem only when I had to install darcs on a non-linux platform. 22:42:26 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:42:34 beach: point being that you can produce beautiful and short solutions that do not really work in practice. 22:42:34 foom: which needs to be enabled on the other side, last time I checked :-) 22:42:40 prxq: Otherwise I don't give a damn what it is written in. 22:42:44 not that that kills your point 22:42:54 p_l|hospital: I guess if you don't have an other side you control, that's an issue. 22:43:00 prxq: fine. 22:43:05 beach: darcs is famous for becoming dog slow in certain cases, but it's less related to language, as it is to the algorithms chosen. 22:43:24 prxq: darcs was also trying to do a semi-formalized design 22:43:24 p_l|hospital: when it comes to Haskell, the choice of language isn't all that far from the algorithm chosen... 22:43:35 beach: no, I had that problem in linux. It was supposed to be so rare a worst case as to be close to impossible to find in the wild. 22:43:40 p_l|hospital: Sounds right. 22:43:46 GIT on the other hand, is a damn simple ... filesystem. It's not really a version control system deep down, it's a bloody storage system. 22:43:49 -!- joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:44:36 p_l|hospital: It has history, what else does it really need 'deep down' 22:45:04 to me darcs and git are analogous to the Scheme and Common Lisp in their methodologies 22:45:31 Guthur: actually it doesn't have history, history is implemented on top of it - each version/branch combination is just a pointer to metadata tree root. 22:46:09 adeht: darcs works great most of the time, but hangs rarely. That makes it unusable for me. 22:46:11 adeht: I think that analogy would amuse the C folks working on git. 22:46:13 darcs/Scheme the formalized, scientistic (wouldn't say scientific) approach.. git/CL the "engineering" (wouldn't say engineering) approach 22:46:17 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:46:47 Guthur: Fossil/Venti combo is an example of a filesystem (Fossil) storing its backups/snapshots into a content-addressable storage (Venti) 22:46:49 prxq: I hate darcs 22:47:03 Guthur: You could probably replace Venti with Git and not notice :D 22:47:06 prxq: and nowadays, with its crc bug, I hate it more ferociously 22:47:24 adeht: well I am talking from memory. I've been using git for a good while. 22:47:44 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:02 *p_l|hospital* is using git simply because it's bloody fast and has little amount of dependencies. 22:48:22 also, github was there first before bitbucket, at least from my POV 22:48:24 p_l|hospital: You obviously know more about it than me, hehe. I am actually getting quite used to git now, serves my simple needs well enough. 22:48:51 git is the closest thing to a standard dvcs, for better or worse 22:49:09 prxq: I use git for my own stuff.. but many CL libraries use darcs 22:49:14 I actually use git to quickly deploy/publish code to my server 22:49:19 mercurial is quite good as well, and probably easier to setup (at least was) 22:49:39 p_l: doesn't matter about good 22:49:40 I'm a big fan of git, actually.. it has proved very useful 22:49:43 anyways, darcs might be construed as an example of what is wrong with the other approach. Cute, idealized, and formal, but somehow unfit for reality 22:50:07 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 22:50:37 *proven 22:50:39 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:50:48 It took a little fiddling to get it to work right but now my workflow is quite streamlined; now if only I actually had loads of stuff to put on the server, hehe 22:51:31 One more question, I have some quite large tree genereted by CL-YACC, now I'd like to add some small list in the middle of it. Is is better to write function which returns new tree, or should I write macro which modify existing tree? 22:52:12 heh. I have at least one project that might be of interest for some people (linux pagetable inspector) but little time to work on it... I might get some interesting code out of some of my projects soon, though. 22:52:32 -!- prxq [~mommer@f052121163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53:09 mrSpec: I'd start with the former 22:54:39 Actually with the right hook I could maybe push code to the server and then invoke a load-op and have the active lisp image pick up the new changes. 22:55:25 adeht: oki, thanks 22:56:07 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:58:50 *redline6561* thinks it's time to try out almost 1.0.38 23:00:31 -!- newToLisp234 [~some@70.96.16.246] has quit [] 23:00:43 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:00:57 iPac [~bubble@p54AA4E46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:52 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:12 pbalogh [~pbalogh@174-152-111-134.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:17 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:03:21 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:04:12 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:07:29 *p_l|hospital* notes that not using [] {} ! and ? as general reader macros in libraries should be part of some manual on style... 23:08:31 Does PPC SBCL have a problem with linkage-table corruption? 23:08:32 p_l|hospital: why not? 23:09:03 because ! and ? at least looks like discussting scheme crap? 23:09:16 Because people like to use ! and ? as constituents? 23:09:31 so? 23:09:41 that's what non-terminating reader macros are for 23:09:43 tcr: those chars were specified in standard as reserved for programmer 23:09:53 tcr: Fails on things like !cold-init. 23:10:04 nyef: I haven't seen that 23:10:07 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:10:18 Fade: SBCL, src/code/cold-init.lisp. 23:10:20 but the only system I build on my ppc machine with sbcl is stump. 23:10:26 p_l|hospital: just use named readtables 23:10:31 Oh, the possible corruption. 23:10:43 well reader macros like [] and {} are ok, as long as the syntax isn't enabled by default 23:11:03 tcr: sure, it's just that I think it is in good style as long as the reader macro doesn't spill outside library code 23:11:07 Fade: Yeah, I'm looking, and it seems like the fixup routine tries to stuff 20 octets of code into a 16-octet space. 23:11:07 of course, whether to use such libraries or not is a matter of taste ;) 23:11:11 is it a 32bit userland? 23:11:21 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:11:33 Has to be, there's no ppc64 SBCL port yet. 23:11:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 23:11:54 huh? the whole point of named-readtables is that library can do whatever they want 23:12:03 *nod* 23:12:05 because it has local effect only 23:12:14 I have only a 32bit ppc machine, so haven't looked into that. 23:12:22 tcr: that's why named-readtables is great :) 23:12:39 *nyef* only has a 64-bit ppc machine, but there's so much -else- to do that a ppc64 port is probably not coming soon. 23:12:50 yeah 23:12:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:03 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-53-208.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:13:32 I started looking at thread support for at least linux/ppc, but as a first forray into sbcl hackery, it seemed a bit beyond my available time to hack. 23:13:41 *nyef* winces. 23:13:53 That's one of the so much else, yes. 23:14:06 Working breakpoints would be nice, too. 23:14:09 yeah 23:14:20 i tend to use ccl on my ppc gear. 23:14:40 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@174-152-111-134.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:13 *nyef* wonders if he should even try to get an OSX install disk for this machine, or if he should just stick with linux. 23:15:30 though one of the systems I use a lot atm dependsd heavily on context-l which does bad stuff to ccl at the edges. 23:15:34 -!- p_l|hospital [~bc925455@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvrtpscugjvtgaax] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:10 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:16:14 fwiw, apart from the absence of flash, linux on my ppc gear really has given it new life. I had forgotten that a 1.67ghz G4 with a gig and a half of ram was actually a fast computer. 23:16:49 I sometimes see the absence of flash as a blessing 23:17:05 well, I get distracted by stupid movies a lot less than I used to. :) 23:18:38 anyhow, nyef, I successfully build 1.0.36 on my ppc machine. 23:18:50 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.133] has joined #lisp 23:19:02 s/build/built 23:19:27 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:41 I've got 1.0.37.59 here, but it fails a handful of tests. 23:20:06 yeah, some of the tests definitely fail. 23:20:22 but the system works well enough to bring up stump, which is why I built it in the first place. 23:20:33 Fair enough. 23:23:33 p_l|hospital [~bc925455@gateway/web/freenode/x-dvykvqadqlnprqrv] has joined #lisp 23:24:09 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:24:17 is there a portable library of run-program variety that supports ECL and CCL on windows? 23:24:19 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:31 (got disconnected for a while) 23:24:56 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:58 saikat_ [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:25:05 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:26:59 p_l|hospital: ISTR there being something like that associated with iolib, but it required a daemon of some sort. 23:27:17 When you compile and load the current buffer is there a way to jump to the error in *SLIME compilation* for the erroneous form at the cursor 23:27:19 hmm... not good 23:27:35 p_l|hospital: I've started one but only for *nix 23:27:42 I don't need much, just std-out of a program on windows. 23:27:48 the daemon is not necessary on windows 23:28:33 the purpose is to use some WSH scripts to in place of FFI 23:31:23 btw, can SBCL optimize calls to provided function in mapping functions? (i.e. inline lambda in mapcar etc.) 23:35:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:35:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:43:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:46:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:49:49 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:52:34 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:52:43 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:56:23 -!- saikat_ [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:59 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:58:49 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:59:13 p_l|hospital: yes, if the HOF is inlined somehow (it is, for mapcar, map, etc.) 23:59:40 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:59:43 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]