00:00:20 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:01:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:01:36 rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:57 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:03:25 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@189.60.103.189] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:05:28 kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111116009.a1.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:19 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:07:05 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-65-18.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:08:44 rares1 [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:24 -!- SN|Muff|Nephir [~nurgledem@ABordeaux-253-1-46-200.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:09:44 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:07 -!- phf [~user@pool-98-114-155-8.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:36 lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:49 -!- drewc`` is now known as drewc 00:22:56 -!- rares1 [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:23:50 rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:33 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:27:23 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.32] has joined #lisp 00:36:25 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:39:01 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:51:18 -!- synthase [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:51:54 synthase [~synthase@adsl-249-96-191.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:31 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:37 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 01:09:04 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:43 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-201.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:25:54 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:27:24 _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:13 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:32:11 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441042.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:37:35 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:03 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.15] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:44:40 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-107-186.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:53:19 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.248.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:47 milanj [~milan@93.86.55.236] has joined #lisp 02:16:55 HungoverPanda [~pyro@CPE-124-190-112-220.nxwn1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:32:13 dslex [~dslex@2a01:e34:ee17:a440:224:2cff:fe6b:da89] has joined #lisp 02:45:49 -!- seamus-android [~alistair@host86-178-140-209.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:46:13 -!- dslex [~dslex@2a01:e34:ee17:a440:224:2cff:fe6b:da89] has left #lisp 02:50:08 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:17 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:52:57 -!- milanj [~milan@93.86.55.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:56:13 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:55 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-21-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:00:58 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-53-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:02:01 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:02:07 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:03:07 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:03:57 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04:43 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:07:08 -!- Guthur [~Michael@213.122.221.177] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 03:11:36 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:14:30 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-116-136.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:21:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:23:38 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Downtime.] 03:25:57 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:31:27 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:33:46 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 03:39:36 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 03:40:54 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has joined #lisp 03:44:54 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 03:49:41 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:51:11 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:13 -!- Kyril [~RogerBaco@bas3-sherbrooke-1279324866.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:00:20 longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has joined #lisp 04:01:02 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 04:06:45 Kyril [~RogerBaco@bas3-sherbrooke-1279324866.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:11:19 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:16:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:19:20 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:19 konr1 [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 04:24:56 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:25:50 -!- konr1 [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Client Quit] 04:26:06 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 04:33:47 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:37:39 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 04:37:45 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-219-97.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-219-97.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:37:46 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 04:45:54 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111116009.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:51:23 Good morning! 04:53:10 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:57:55 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:00:43 Harold [~harold@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:20 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:02:26 -!- saikat [~saikat@66.201.44.122] has quit [Quit: saikat] 05:04:34 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:07:56 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 05:08:20 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:28 -!- Snaker [~user@p57A8CC4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:44 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:57 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:28 -!- HungoverPanda is now known as PurplePanda 05:16:43 fy__ [~AndChat@190.sub-97-51-133.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:19:34 mornin 05:19:41 hey schme 05:20:02 Hello, beach . How are things? 05:20:41 Still way too busy, but I hope things will calm down in a week or so. 05:20:46 :) 05:20:56 *schme* did the högskoleprov yesterday. 05:21:24 never tried it before. 05:21:28 How did it go? 05:21:45 I think the results are reported in 4 weeks or something. 05:21:58 But I missed 7 points. 05:22:06 Out of how many? 05:22:10 122 I think. 05:22:32 This thing wasn't around when I lived in .se so I don't really know what it's about. 05:22:45 that must have been a long time ago :) 05:23:08 Yeah, moved in 1983. 05:23:32 Basically it is 5 tests done on 50 minutes time limit. everyone does 'em at the same time. Then they do a nice curve and you get a score from 0,0 up to 2,0 05:23:48 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:24:04 And you need it these days to go to the university? 05:24:12 Oh no. 05:24:55 It works that unis accept, to a course or program, 66% of the people based on "gymnasiebetyg" and 34% based on the result from this (if they have atleast the required gymnasiekurser in the baggage of course) 05:25:25 So if you don't have the 20,0 (soon to be 22,0 I guess) on your grade and want to be a medical doctor you go write a 1,9 on this test instead. 05:25:44 (not that I want to be a doctor) 05:26:05 I see. How is the 20,0 or 22,0 counted? 05:26:09 oh I guess we changed the grading system too. :) 05:26:19 Guess so. 05:26:30 MVG == 20,0. So MVG in all subjects == 20,0 05:26:42 but now they are rechanging it so that some select courses give you extra points. 05:26:47 so you can get above maximum. 05:26:48 What is MVG? 05:26:53 shit. 05:26:55 man :) 05:26:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for :). 05:27:07 heh! 05:27:09 beach: The grading system in swedish schools go IG - G - VG - MVG 05:27:18 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066161.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 05:27:22 Oh, right, I think I heard that. 05:27:25 Yeees. 05:27:46 it used to be absurd with the 1-5. Not the actual numbers, but how it was distributed on a nice curve so not everyone could get a 5. 05:28:01 Now it is going a bit nuts again. 05:28:12 Why am I not surprised? 05:28:16 :) 05:28:58 For some reason the regering feels that 15 year old kids need to decide on what they want to do with their life at .. well age 15 :) 05:29:22 I never had a problem with that, but I could tell that other kids did. 05:29:32 I decided at the age of 9. 05:29:36 Cools :) 05:29:43 Most people do not, that seems to be the problem. 05:30:09 Yes, I can see that. And my decision was sligtly modified after a while, but basically the same. 05:30:37 But maybe the problem is really overhyped by the media. So at 15 you can start picking courses that give you extra points, and you can study like a mo'fo to get your 20.0 . Or you get to age 30 and write the högskoleprove and you write a better result because.. well.. you're 30 and know more shit :) 05:30:58 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:30:58 Of course, yes. 05:31:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:31:09 There is one part of this test... with just 40 words, and you pick what they mean. I can tell the 18 year olds had a problem with them. 05:31:25 *schme* shrugs. 05:31:27 is all good. 05:31:31 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:55 I think I'll land at 1,9 or thereabouts so I will be able to get into what I'm trying for anyway. 05:32:05 I had a similar experience when I took the test for my pilot license. The kids just had no clue, and to me it was easy. 05:32:20 schme: What is it that you are trying to get into? 05:32:25 Maybe a good thing.. kids flying planes. 05:32:35 they stopped a 10 year old who had stolen a car in Malmoe yesterday! 05:32:48 beach: sjukgymnastikprogrammet. Not sure what it is in english. 05:33:18 It's OK, I still understand some Swedish, though I never learned to speak it :) 05:33:33 yees 05:33:37 I think maybe physical therapy. 05:33:48 Ah, yes, that sounds right. 05:34:03 I'm looking here at uni courses to take for the summer... to get back into the whole thing. "Programming for World of Warcraft" :( 05:34:11 sometimes.. they make me cry 05:34:22 Hmm, yes. 05:34:50 I'd go for some comp. sci. but I found it bores me to death :) 05:35:06 or maybe it is the java madness that bores me to death. 05:35:37 Have you considered going abroad? 05:36:01 Yes. But things get complicated :) 05:36:18 Sure. And you have a family as I recall, right? 05:36:44 I have my company up and running here and I would like to keep doing this while studying. I'm sure I could move it and have it a great success anywhere, but.. it'd be a restart. and I'd probably have to relearn some rusty language. 05:36:59 and Lisa is starting law school next semester. and that's a couple of years. 05:37:12 now if I could just kill her and I was 20 again... 05:37:35 Nah, you wouldn't want to be 20 again. That's a difficult age. 05:37:40 yep 05:37:48 I made it out alive \o/ 05:38:01 By pure chance no doubt. 05:38:10 schme: Uh? Java in Computer Science? 05:38:16 Your school is fucked up :D 05:38:21 Madsy^: I guess. 05:38:38 Though I remember plutonas doing haskell when he was studying in lund. 05:38:38 Madsy^: Most of them are these days. The intro programmin course in Auckland is in Java. 05:38:56 Madsy^: SICP has been declared dead ;) 05:40:01 I guess it depends on the specific education. You can sneak past java/Python here if you study Cybernetics. 05:40:25 Probably. 05:41:29 luckily there is no java in physical therapy :) 05:41:33 haha 05:42:02 No, but you *need* physical therapy after long exposure to Java. 05:42:13 beach: I have been trying to trick lisa into moving to france with me, and for her to do her studies there. But she is all "But I don't understand a word of french ): ): ):" 05:42:23 Madsy^: Good. I see a bright future for me. 05:42:32 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:48 schme: Sure, you have to plan for the first year to learn French. 05:42:58 does anyone know what representation sbcl uses for strings? 05:43:44 *schme* does not. 05:43:56 foof: Not in detail, but why do you ask? 05:44:14 i'm investigating different representations 05:44:34 Which ones? 05:44:40 http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Unicode seems to suggest either Emacs-style 3-byte-per-char arrays 05:44:55 or perhaps packed 21-bit-per-char bit-vectors 05:45:27 beach: i'm working in the context of https://trac.ccs.neu.edu/trac/larceny/wiki/StringRepresentations 05:45:38 -!- fy__ [~AndChat@190.sub-97-51-133.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:45:54 fy__ [~AndChat@190.sub-97-51-133.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 05:46:06 for that matter, i'd be curious what any CL impl uses 05:46:19 foof: I am fairly sure SBCL optimized for strings of base chars. 05:46:19 beach: They used to have, at Lunds uni, something they cooked up.. I forget the proper name of it. It was 50% lingustics and 50% compsci. I bet that would have been a blast :) 05:46:39 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:47:28 foof: And It used to be the case that base-string could only hold ASCII characters. Perhaps Krystof eventually made that Latin-1. 05:47:46 schme: Yeah, that sounds interesting! 05:48:43 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 05:49:06 foof: I am also reasonably sure that there is no string representation in SBCL that uses any compressed format like UTF-whatever. It would be hard to do an aref on those. 05:49:18 not to mention (setf aref). 05:49:45 beach: hmmm... that has nasty properties. algorithms which are fast 99% of the time suddenly become an order of magnitude slower when you least expect it. 05:50:21 foof: The complexity changes. O(1) becomes O(n). 05:51:01 well, either slower or suddenly use several times the memory, which can be worse 05:51:35 That depends on your application. Usually, we have plenty of memory these days. 05:51:56 beach: I do NLP and work with gigabytes of text in memory 05:52:35 foof: By 4GB of memory! 05:52:40 *Buy 05:52:43 Make your own string representation :) 05:53:16 beach: right, but if i fill that with text and suddenly need 2-4x more memory i'm in trouble :) 05:53:48 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:54:01 foof: For Climacs I thought of representing currently-worked-on lines with 4 bytes/char and for others using UTF8, or simply run some compression algorithm on them. But if you need to access all of the text all the time, such schemes won't work. 05:54:49 foof: If you don't need to modify the text very much, you can use things like UTF-8. 05:56:35 beach: that's what i tend to lean towards, but i want to investigate all reasonable possibilites 06:00:13 longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has joined #lisp 06:00:58 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has left #lisp 06:02:40 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-154.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:11 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-134-209.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:09:20 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:11 -!- fy__ [~AndChat@190.sub-97-51-133.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:12:22 longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has joined #lisp 06:12:28 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has left #lisp 06:13:54 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13:54 foof: You could just use gzip or some other compression algorithm. That will probably be even more compact than UTF-8. 06:16:26 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:18:20 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:19:33 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 06:20:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has joined #lisp 06:21:49 -!- Kyril [~RogerBaco@bas3-sherbrooke-1279324866.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:26:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:28:07 bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:59 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:33:46 ``Erik, ugh, that'll take a while I'm afraid. :-/ 06:34:00 ``Erik, basically no progress since my latest screenshot. 06:44:07 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 06:49:19 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:53:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:00:06 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:04:34 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:05:47 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:16:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A153D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:17:07 -!- Harold [~harold@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:23:30 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:30:35 Harold [~harold@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:43 benny [~benny@i577A183A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:49 -!- _8david` [~user@pD9540CDD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:46:56 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:17 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 07:48:06 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:48:15 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:54:01 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:56:58 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066161.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:59 milanj [~milan@93.86.55.236] has joined #lisp 07:59:30 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has left #lisp 08:01:14 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:01:24 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:59 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 hello 08:02:09 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:43 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:05:26 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:02 hi 08:08:09 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:09:17 hoi 08:18:22 beach: Hey man. If you moved from Sweden 1983 then we did have högskoleprov back then. It started up in 77 :) 08:19:13 hello 08:21:36 did you do it yesterday? 08:22:20 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 08:23:46 tic: Yes. For the first time in my life too. 08:23:50 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-173-252.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:23:53 schme, what did you score? 08:23:57 (how?) 08:24:06 tic: I will know in 4 weeks when the curve has been drawn ;) 08:24:15 approx, though? 08:24:19 I'm thinking 1,9 08:24:26 *tic* high-fives schme 08:24:49 Which should be enough. 08:24:53 For? 08:24:59 sjukgymnastprogrammet. 08:25:03 I think maybe 1,5 is enough. 08:25:18 Neat! 08:25:47 But now I dunno. With an ok score that lets me pick whatever.. should I follow the heart or the money :) 08:25:51 What up with tic man? 08:26:34 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:41 Summer's up! Shorts weather now. Also, I noticed I've gained 8 kg since november. 08:26:51 beef cake! 08:27:21 I've lost about 8 this year. so it evens out, eh? 08:27:28 *schme* fires up the old SLIME. 08:28:33 I should think so, yes. (about the beef cake I'm not so sure, though. :)) 08:29:23 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:29:31 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-173-252.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:47 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-30-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 08:30:44 schme: Perhaps I mentally moved before 1977. :) Seriously, it must not have been commonplace. 08:31:00 beach: I think maybe before 91 or something only people above age 25 were allowed to do it. 08:31:19 Ah, that would explain it. 08:32:45 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: reboot] 08:33:56 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has left #lisp 08:44:53 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.74.46] has joined #lisp 08:48:06 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 08:49:17 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:49:48 -!- PurplePanda [~pyro@CPE-124-190-112-220.nxwn1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 08:55:24 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:57:14 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.252.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:26 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.74.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:58:10 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:01:31 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-13-93.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 09:06:03 ak70 [~ak70@85.232.206.46] has joined #lisp 09:06:49 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 09:08:45 -!- ak70 [~ak70@85.232.206.46] has quit [Client Quit] 09:09:17 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7556ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:19 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.79] has joined #lisp 09:13:25 -!- Harold [~harold@cpe-24-92-71-240.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:14:23 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-4-164.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:14:51 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-65-18.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:18:15 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 09:23:57 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:25:56 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:48 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:29:16 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:29:53 beach: I think it wasn't change in O() complexity, but the total M() complexity (as in, memory one) being underestimated. 09:40:27 p_l: wrt storing strings? 09:42:06 beach: the "suddenly the algorithm slow downs horribly" thing 09:42:41 p_l: If you use (say) UTF-8 and want to change the character with index `i' you have to search the entire string from the beginning, and then you might have to move everything if you replace (say) a one-byte character by a three-byte one. No? 09:43:32 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:43:44 beach: yes, at least with UTF-8, that is. 09:44:24 actually, I'm pretty sure it applies to *all* Unicode encodings, due to pairs etc. 09:45:23 Samuel9999 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 09:45:24 it depends on what you mean by "character" 09:45:34 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 09:45:41 true that 09:45:43 if you mean "code point", then no, not in UCS-4/UTF-32 09:51:06 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:55:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has joined #lisp 09:57:27 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:58:49 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has left #lisp 09:59:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:03:39 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:08 Krystof: that's what SBCL uses, right? 10:05:39 for (array character), yes 10:06:10 ah. does SBCL make a difference between BASE-CHARACTER and EXTENDED-CHARACTER in storage size? 10:06:50 (array base-char) is 8-bit elements, but base-char is restricted to 7-bit ascii 10:07:07 and of course (array nil) has 0-bit elements :-) 10:07:16 :-) 10:08:29 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-14-247.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:37 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:14:57 do anyone use hunchentoot with apache 1.3.x successfully together with mod_rewrite? 10:18:20 xinming [~hyy@218.73.132.224] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 10:23:35 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:29:44 Axius [~hi@92.85.219.148] has joined #lisp 10:31:36 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 10:32:26 -!- Axius [~hi@92.85.219.148] has quit [Client Quit] 10:35:00 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-130.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:39:14 hypno: I was under the impression that hunchentoot was an alternative to apache. In what way would you use them together? 10:40:38 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:40:42 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:41:50 beach: i use apache to serve static files and i also use it for it's simple basic auth stuff. besides, i have a few other sites that needs mod_php and a lot of other nonsense. 10:42:16 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 10:43:40 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C2FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:22 beach: in my experience, i would not trust most lisp webservers to take the front hit anyway. they are too easy to crash. 10:45:06 anyway, i've solved the problem. 10:46:12 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:47:22 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:48:42 *Xach* uses it with nginx 10:51:45 saikat_ [~saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 10:54:10 alama [~alama@a95-95-128-109.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:54:21 -!- xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:55 xenosoz2 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:56:42 prxq [~mommer@f051105209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:52 hi 10:59:02 hi prxq 11:02:12 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 11:04:01 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:14 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:08:25 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:10:07 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:27 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:49 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:35 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-1-130.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 11:15:41 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 11:20:18 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.89.61] has left #lisp 11:20:31 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 11:23:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-154.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:25:23 this is somewhat confusing: i am using READ-FROM-STRING on a string, and everything works fine, except that it gets interned in COMMON-LISP::STRING. how can it gets interned in my own package? 11:25:50 Err, interned in COMMON-LISP::FOO for "FOO" that is. 11:26:11 hypno: that is controlled by the value of *PACKAGE* at the time of the function call 11:26:30 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:26:45 hypno: bind *PACKAGE* to your package to change how un-prefixed symbols are interned 11:26:50 Xach: Ok. So the proper way is really to let *package* go in an LET before the call? 11:27:25 Ok. Thanks. I suspected that, but not sure it that would be "good". :) 11:29:48 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 11:32:55 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:34:32 -!- milanj [~milan@93.86.55.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:37:48 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:52 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:38:58 milanj [~milan@93.87.150.116] has joined #lisp 11:39:04 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:27 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:02 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:44:23 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-30-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:45:41 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:47:26 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:51:57 Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:08 hypno: I used hunchentoot with mod_rewrite, but through 3xx redirects. mod_proxy might be better. 11:54:07 hypno: cool, do you have any tutorials for how to set that up? (i'm doing some hunchentoot programming as we speak) 11:57:03 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-128-109.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:57:33 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 11:58:09 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 11:58:27 alama [~alama@a95-95-128-109.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:03:15 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:04:26 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:06:32 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 12:12:15 p_l: mod_proxy is all fine and dandy, it is just that the "!" is not supported in 1.3.x which I use. with apache 2.2 it is the way to go, yes. (ie 2 line conf :) 12:14:35 alama: to set what up? with apache 1.3.x i am using extra domain names to get around the whole moronic fucking unix hating mess of apache (*ahem*), so i use static.foo.com, admin.foo.com, and not foo.com/admin, etc. if you are starting from scratch i would recommend you go with apache 2.2. 12:15:10 hypno: i can use apache 2.2 12:17:28 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:17:28 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:17:33 alama: if you use CCL, then put http://195.43.248.109/~hypno/CCL.txt in your .ccl-init.lisp, and do (asdf-install:install :hunchentoot), (require :hunchentoot), (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 8080)) 12:18:32 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 12:18:53 hypno: cool 12:18:57 (i use sbcl, though) 12:19:56 and the hunchentoot part is done. next up is adding ProxyPass / http://127.0.0.1:8080/, ProxyPassReverse / http://127.0.0.1:8080/. you might want to add a ProxyPass /static ! before those if you want to serve static content from apache (this do not work with apache 1.3.x) 12:20:05 lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:20:47 alama: with SBCL you basically do the same thing. 12:20:55 right 12:20:58 thanks 12:28:42 hypno: are you on a mac? 12:33:27 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:34:23 alama: mac, freebsd, netbsd, solaris. take your pic. :) 12:34:46 hypno: sweet :-> 12:35:06 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.35.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:40:31 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:45:52 lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:51 wgl [~wgl@c-98-227-91-74.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:58:34 -!- easyE [WYvYNXyg81@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:59:58 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:01:15 -!- saikat_ [~saikat@rescomp-09-132118.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: saikat_] 13:03:13 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 13:04:09 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:05:29 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 13:05:39 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:39 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-93-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:06:43 longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has joined #lisp 13:06:44 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:54 hello 13:12:58 hi 13:13:38 when I run 'git push', the following message appears: "fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly" 13:13:49 is that command successful? 13:17:01 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 13:18:26 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d557540-CM00222d55753d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:54 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:41 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 13:19:44 francogrex [~user@159.112-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:20:28 longkid: no 13:21:28 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 13:22:30 I don't know the reason 13:23:35 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:23:51 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:54 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:51 longkid: try git push origin 13:26:31 yes, I've already done that. But the result is the same 13:26:34 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:26:40 longkid: what repo is that? 13:28:16 I clone repository from git://common-lisp.net/projects/sudoku/sudoku.git 13:28:24 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:28:31 longkid: do you have write permissions? 13:28:38 on the remote? 13:29:02 how can I know that? 13:29:28 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:30:39 longkid: are you a member of the project? If not, you do not have write permissions 13:31:28 prxq: I'm the member of this project 13:31:53 ok :-) 13:32:26 can you paste somewhere the result of git remote -v? 13:32:40 somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:32:45 also, reading "pro git" might be helpful, if you haven't done that 13:32:49 is there some special happening with slime and DEFPACKAGE? (defpackage :foo (:use :common-lisp)) do not work in slime, yet work just fine from the "real" repl 13:33:06 hypno: uh oh 13:33:15 hypno: update SBCL 13:33:27 tcr: CCL here? 13:33:38 prxq: origin git://common-lisp.net/projects/sudoku/sudoku.git 13:33:47 well that's "not work" then? 13:33:52 what's 13:34:13 prxq: I've read that book and done as its instruction. 13:34:28 tcr: Undefined function :USE called with arguments (:COMMON-LISP) 13:34:42 longkid: that's not an ssh link. When you try to push, you are not authenticated so it fails 13:34:46 In what package are you? 13:34:54 It's displayed in the modeline 13:35:09 tcr: CL 13:35:17 longkid: look at the section on setting up remotes. There it is described how to set it so that it goes over ssh. 13:37:06 does anyone know why SLIME & SBCL lock up if you call (use-package) inside it? 13:37:19 prxq: you mean the section of adding remote repos? 13:37:45 p_l: update sbcl 13:37:46 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 13:38:19 ehu [~ehu@ip5657b052.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 13:39:19 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:22 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:40:23 longkid: yes 13:40:48 tcr: blocked by Maxima, unfortunately 13:42:03 p_l: You may be able to backport 1.0.37.44 13:42:05 prxq: I should add this remote repo ssh://common-lisp.net/var/git/projects/sudoku/sudoku.git 13:42:09 prxq: Right? 13:42:36 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:30 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:25 -!- pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:44:39 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.149.141] has joined #lisp 13:45:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:47:24 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:36 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 13:51:42 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:29 Joreji [~thomas@86-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:52:44 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:31 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:25 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:44 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56:45 -!- Samuel9999 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has quit [Quit: co co] 13:57:09 -!- francogrex [~user@159.112-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:00 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:49 easyE [W6jxU6JjV4@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:03:39 Joreji [~thomas@86-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:07:32 hello 14:10:25 hello spradnyesh 14:10:36 hello longkid 14:10:37 spradnyesh pasted "defsystem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97636 14:11:09 I'm defining a system using defsystem that contains 2 modules as components. Each module contains a few lisp files as its components. I need module-2 to depend on module-1. The minimal code is in http://paste.lisp.org/+23C4 14:11:50 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:59 basically, I have a macro 'mt' defined in utils->config which I need in src->conf, but it ain't working 14:11:59 beach: hello 14:12:11 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:12:17 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html and http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml did not help 14:12:30 what may I be doing wrongly? 14:12:50 beach: I have trouble with git push 14:12:57 lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 I get the error 'The function MT is undefined.' 14:13:38 longkid: I saw that. I don't know what to do to help. 14:13:49 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:13:50 longkid: But the reason is no doubt one of permissions. 14:14:10 all files depend correctly on "package" though 14:14:13 nobody1337 [~opera@89.20.142.18] has joined #lisp 14:14:22 spradnyesh: What package are you in when you execute your defystem? 14:14:27 *defsystem 14:14:30 beach: do you know nickname of Vuong? 14:14:37 longkid: vng 14:15:19 spradnyesh annotated #97636 "defpackage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97636#1 14:15:24 longkid: Try logging into common-lisp.net using ssh, and see whether that works. 14:15:30 he send me the instructions of nikodemus, but I don't understand 14:15:40 longkid: as in ssh @common-lisp.net 14:15:52 longkid: What instructions? 14:16:03 beach: I have a test-asd package created within which I do the defsystem 14:16:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/96868 14:16:18 as shown by http://paste.lisp.org/+23C4/1 14:16:34 spradnyesh: I see. Not the problme I thought it may be then. 14:17:24 beach: can't a module depend on another module? can't 2 modules be defined in the same package? 14:18:24 -!- nobody1337 [~opera@89.20.142.18] has quit [Client Quit] 14:18:37 longkid: Did you do number 1 (In local copy) on your machine? 14:18:59 longkid: with replaced by sudoku? 14:19:43 beach: Not yet. I've just clone repo from cl.net 14:20:10 beach: after that, I changed something, and git commit 14:20:23 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-4-164.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:20:45 beach: I did one thing -- commented out the compile-failing code in conf.lisp and compiled the whole system again and it went through fine. then I checked if "mt" was defined in the "test" package and it is 14:21:16 so I don't see why compilation of that code should fail 14:21:24 any pointers anyone? 14:22:16 longkid: It is probably that when you cloned from git:... that it was registered as the remote, so when you push, you try to push to it. But that won't work because you have to push to ssh:... 14:23:06 beach: Yes, I see. 14:23:37 longkid: your remote has to read something like longkid@common-lisp.net etc 14:23:44 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:24:26 beach: I found the issue. I hadn't put (in-package :test) at the beginning of conf.lisp :-/ 14:24:39 put it there, and it works fine :) 14:24:45 That would explain it. 14:24:54 prxq: This is my uid Lam Ho (lho) 14:25:33 beach: thanks for taking a look anyways :) 14:25:51 longkid: step 1.5 and 1.6 in the instructions from Nikodemus adds what prxq says to your local repository so that when you push, you push using ssh. 14:26:00 spradnyesh: No problem. 14:27:24 beach: Let me try 14:27:25 carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.13] has joined #lisp 14:28:59 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:32 This message appears when I run 1.5: fatal: remote origin already exists. 14:29:59 Then you must have already done 1.5. 14:30:25 Did you try to log into cl.net with ssh as I suggested? 14:31:00 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:20 beach: let me try to log into cl.net with ssh 14:33:13 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:14 beach: it asks me the password for lho@common-lisp.net. But I type pass incorrectly. 14:35:29 longkid: Do you know your password? 14:36:02 longkid: It should have been sent to you by the admin in an encrypted email message. 14:37:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:37:40 beach: Yes. When I request the admin of cl.net for creating a new account, I receive an email "Welcome to common-lisp.net" 14:37:57 Joreji [~thomas@86-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:38:03 beach: and he send me a string of many characters 14:38:05 longkid: And when you type the password in that email message, you still can't log in? 14:38:21 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:37 longkid: That's your encrypted password, that you need to decrypt using gpg 14:39:13 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:15 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.149.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:23 beach: It's a very long string. I can type it. 14:39:38 longkid: wait! 14:39:47 longkid: How long? 14:39:58 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40:17 -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- 14:40:20 Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) 14:40:24 No! 14:40:32 don't type it here! 14:41:28 longkid: That is not your password. That is your password after it has been encrypted so that nobody but you can read it. 14:42:08 longkid: You need to take that thing, and run it through gpg --decrypt to obtain your password. The reason for the encryption is so that nobody can figure out your password by reading the email exchange. 14:42:53 beach: ah, I see. I'll try gpg --decrypt 14:42:53 longkid: (That is, the lines that follow the ones above). 14:44:20 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-031-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:52 -!- Tanami [~tanami@150.101.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:48:00 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:48:41 -!- positron_ [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:49:30 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 14:49:32 Actually, I have never pushed to a cl.net repository. I suppose it asks for you password when you do, unless you have done an ssh-add, right? 14:51:04 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.224.188] has joined #lisp 14:51:12 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:52:02 Tanami [~tanami@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 14:52:12 longkid: I need to go. It would be great if someone else could help you debug this problem. Once we have made sure you can long in to cl.net, we should make sure you push to the right repository, using ssh. This can be done by mentioning the repository explicitly as in git push lgo@common-lisp.net/project/sudoku/.... 14:53:01 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:04 If that works, and a simple git push does not, it means that git is trying to push using git: instead of ssh:, and there should be a way of specifying the default URL for push. 14:53:09 beach: OK. I'll try and ask peole here 14:53:22 shinaab [~anonymous@c-76-113-194-28.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:24 But I don't know git well enough in order to know how to do that. 14:53:54 beach: I read ProGit book for do everything with git 14:54:14 I typically specify a remote repository on the command line every time I push. So, I'd do "git push public-repo", for example. 14:55:35 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:55:50 nyef: Instead of using git push origin master, can I push to another repo? And what is the different between them? 14:56:53 Sure, you can push to another repo. When I do SBCL stuff I pull from origin/master, but push to my own public repository. 14:57:11 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:57:25 Actually, wait... origin is the repository and master is the branch, isn't it? 14:57:48 *nyef* is clearly still not a git expert. 14:58:42 nyef: Yes 14:59:07 -!- shinaab [~anonymous@c-76-113-194-28.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:59:24 There's a certain amount of defaulting that goes on if you omit, for example, a branch name or a branch name and remote repository name. 14:59:41 The man page for git-push should describe some of the options. 14:59:56 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-116-136.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:04 -!- tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:00:55 -!- bigjust` is now known as bigjust 15:01:31 nyef: I don't know when push to another repo besides origin. Does my code appear in the repo of my group? 15:01:45 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 I would expect the matter of when to push where to be a matter of project policy. 15:02:22 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-21-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:28 Which is something that I really can't help you with. 15:02:46 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:03:18 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-79-191.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:03:52 nyef: I'm in a mess. Maybe I should take a short break. 15:04:02 #git can be good for info 15:05:03 Guthur: this is sounds more like a project management issue. 15:05:09 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:40 righteo, sorry I couldn't actually ascertain what the problem was just seen a lot git push talk 15:06:29 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:06:47 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:08:02 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:11 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:45 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:11:05 Heh. From a book copyright 1961: "However, if the reader has access to a high-speed digital computer and has no urge to be able to make MO calculations while swinging in a hammock beside a mountain lake, not much is to be gained by further study of the balance of this chapter." 15:11:38 MO? 15:11:49 Molecular Orbit. 15:12:10 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:12:48 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:13 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 15:14:26 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-116-202-61.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:14:57 It's just the thought that a $300 netbook these days would vastly overpower the high-speed digital computer of those days, and thus you can have your computer do the work from said hammock. 15:15:13 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.166.194] has left #lisp 15:15:37 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:42 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:16:12 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:19:05 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip5657b052.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:27:18 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:20 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 15:32:00 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:33:29 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:33:49 cmo-0 [~user@92.99.54.25] has joined #lisp 15:34:21 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:36:49 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:37:06 -!- cmo-0 [~user@92.99.54.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:17 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 15:39:37 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:40:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:42:36 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:21 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:49 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:48:30 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:49:44 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-30-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:50:26 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:36 nyef: Similarly, when I worked in industry 1980 - 1983, we had disks the size of a dishwasher that could hold 100MBytes, and they cost the equivalent of 10k USD at the time. 15:55:28 nyef: Now, the flash card in my cellphone or camera has 40 times that for a tiny fraction of the cost. 15:55:53 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:56:44 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:35 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 15:59:25 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:52 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:02:29 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-45-82-65-159-57.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:19 and yet, many people program as if they couldn't spare one damn cycle 16:03:37 well, good for us. 16:03:44 Indeed. 16:04:09 but this is actually interesting and challenging 16:04:56 prxq: But it's worse than that. Those people typically choose C++ for speed. Then they end up using smart pointers, copy constructors, reference counters, etc, that will make their programs 100 times slower than if they had used Lisp. 16:05:10 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-95-149.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:05:28 if I wanted an array of unsigned bytes, would I use :element-type '(integer 256) ? 16:05:50 beach: what always puzzles me is how immune to that kind of argument many people are 16:05:51 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) 16:05:58 bytecolor: (unsigned-byte 8) would be clearer than (mod 256) or (integer 0 255) 16:06:10 ah, thanks guys 16:06:18 i mean, it's not like it was a very deep subtlety 16:06:40 prxq: Yes, and I have a saying these days: "the amount of energy the world is willing to spend to avoid using Lisp is astonishingly high". 16:06:52 prxq: if we were talking about C or fortran, there would be an argument for predictability. 16:07:11 pkhuong: what do you mean? 16:07:31 prxq: I also say things like "it is impossible to have a C++ program that is both fast and modular". 16:07:37 when you know how your program will be optimized? 16:08:25 prxq: the performance of CL programs is sometimes hard to predict and understand ahead of time 16:08:33 and the hidden consing is part of the equation. 16:09:21 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: be good!] 16:09:22 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:38 well, my point is that most of the time, none of that matters at all. 16:10:00 prxq: Recently I had a group of students work on a program for visualizing algorithms on trees. Because they used a static language (Java), they spent 3 weeks between two people to produce a 1500 line program for interpreting a kind of algorithmic-language assembler, and they did that because they don't know much about compiling languages (in this case some kind of algorithmic language). I showed them how to do it in 1h and 60 lines 16:10:00 with Lisp, and since I had time to spare, I wrote the compiler in another 90 lines and another hour of work. 16:10:28 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:30 ...and now they hate you :-) 16:10:46 Maybe. But it's my best group, so I think they get the point. 16:10:51 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:04 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:12:13 prxq: I can still understand sticking to a language that tends to yield worse, but predictable, performance to avoid the bad experience when you get awful performance but can't tell why. 16:12:19 Axioplas1_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 16:12:42 Anyway, that's a factor 50 in time and 25 in code size. Now, I would like to know why industry hires 25 of my students at perhaps 2kEUR/month, rather than me at 50kEUR/month. Hell, I could work 1 month/year and spend the rest of the time doing more interesting stuff. 16:12:42 beach: why they didnt use lisp? 16:13:13 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:34 mrSpec: In this case, they didn't have a choice (client told them to), but that doesn't excuse them from questioning the choice of the client. 16:13:35 marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has joined #lisp 16:13:37 pkhuong: but getting bad performance without knowing why only happens rarely and mostly when you are a newb 16:13:47 mrSpec: And even if they had a choice they wouldn't have chosen Lisp. 16:13:58 ah, why? 16:14:04 prxq: yes. Predictability is still worth a lot. 16:14:09 they dont know lisp? 16:15:07 mrSpec: They do, but most of them are convinced that it is useless, despite what we tell them. This is a known psychological problem that you will find documented here: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 16:15:56 beach: ah, thanks. I've already red this essay ;-) 16:16:04 s/red/read/ 16:17:03 I suspected so, but it's interesting to show it to newcomers of #lisp :) 16:17:37 yes. I've started learning touch typing ;) 16:17:44 beach: one reason might be that the factors involved in getting to know the industrial problem domain show less of a stark difference 16:18:35 glad someone mentioned this.. 16:18:44 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:12 in fact it may in favor for the 20-something 16:19:42 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:19:55 marioxcc` [~user@200.92.160.133] has joined #lisp 16:20:12 they may not, though -- good academics are good at picking up salient facts in new domains 16:20:32 Krystof: Less of a stark difference in what? 16:21:00 you might be less than 50 times faster than your students at learning a new problem domain 16:21:16 ...and know a lot about compilers 16:21:41 Well, despite my earlier comment, it's actually my impression that there's a huge age discrimination in this profession 16:21:59 tcr: aha..? 16:22:01 also, industry can hire 25 of your students at 2kEUR/month, then terminate the contracts of the 20 least efficient ones, double the wages of the remaining 5, and be satisfied 16:22:04 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:22:25 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.224.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:22:29 marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has joined #lisp 16:22:59 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:03 and reduce variance at that. Again, predictability is useful. 16:23:09 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:11 Krystof: Yes, and I consider this possibility in front of the students. So perhaps it is not a factor 50 but only a factor 5, or perhaps only a factor 5% (unlikely). That still means they should consider it, because society can't afford them wasting 5% of the effort. 16:23:28 Krystof: In practice they don't do that. 16:23:29 -!- marioxcc` [~user@200.92.160.133] has left #lisp 16:23:29 Is there some way to find out if a given keyword names an SBCL contrib without trying to load it as one? 16:23:35 beach: society lives off inefficiency 16:24:01 nyef: isn't there some logical pathname thingie set up for contribs? 16:24:08 what prxq says. Society currently works by converting energy sources into inefficiency 16:24:25 prxq: But that should mean that there is money to make in the niche of being more productive. In practice though, nobody seems to care. 16:24:38 tcr: SYS:CONTRIB;, yes. But there's a bit more complexity beyond that, isn't there? 16:24:55 nyef: I envisioned a gross hack involving probe-file :-) 16:24:59 beach: there are large barriers to entry before the greater efficiency pays off 16:25:00 Krystof: Surely, that couldn't be an objective. 16:25:15 beach: no-one designed it that way, no, it just is that way 16:25:18 tcr: I was afraid of that. :-P 16:25:37 Krystof: I like the paper by Hudak at all, in which a recent graduate takes 8 days to learn Haskell and beats the crap out of an experienced C++ programmer. 16:25:38 while it is cheaper to use a non-renewable resource than it is to avoid having to use it, the resource will be used 16:26:05 Krystof: This paper suggests the barriers to entry are lower than currently thought. 16:26:06 tcr: My current gross hack for loading my project is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97637 but it chokes if I don't remember to load sb-rt beforehand. 16:26:15 the barriers to entry aren't technological 16:26:26 marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has joined #lisp 16:26:27 beach: of course they are lower on that front 16:26:35 you have a product idea, you make it. Now what? How do you convince someone to buy it? That's the hard part 16:26:47 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 16:26:48 Amdahl! 16:26:52 it's like academic research in that respect: the easy bit is the idea, the moderately easy bit is writing the paper 16:26:55 maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:26:59 the hard bit is getting it accepted somewhere where someone else will read it 16:27:04 Krystof: Only for startups. Large established companies make money by being productive. 16:27:11 hallo 16:27:17 hey maden 16:27:33 hi beach! im going to order the dead-sexy book tonight :) 16:27:39 Good for you. 16:27:50 beach: but they can't change in too radical ways 16:27:59 large established companies make money by exploiting quasi-monopolies -- which even free marketeers acknowledge is inefficient 16:28:00 beach: in which case the challenge is in understanding the existing code base. 16:28:09 frankly, i don't think the issue is technological at all 16:28:23 prxq: They could change pretty radically if a factor 10 improved productivity was offered. 16:29:51 prxq: It isn't because of the way they think today, which has as a basic implicit assumption that all tools, programming languages, and programmers are basically the same. 16:29:56 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-19-144.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:30:07 prxq: But if you don't accept that, then a new world opens up. 16:30:11 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:30 beach: a more practical hypothesis might be that we can't tell the difference. 16:30:57 Krystof: That is a state of the way things currently work, and I agree with that, but that shouldn't be inevitable. 16:30:58 there is also herd pressure. 16:31:33 -!- kqr [kqr@xkqr.org] has left #lisp 16:31:55 beach: even if I agree that some programmers and tools are "better", that's no use if I can't measure or at least sort by quality. 16:32:01 pkhuong: Right, so I keep telling the companies around here that a president of a company that doesn't have the intuition to tell the difference, and hence only uses raw facts to make decisions, should be replaced by a spreadsheet program, because such a program is faster, and doesn't get huge bonuses. 16:32:41 beach: well, ideally, yes, most of the business decisions would be automated. 16:33:14 beach: I'm sure there's an interesting research project in there, something about an electronic CEO... 16:33:22 what is the difference between pratical, common, and ANSI Lisp? (is there one?) 16:33:27 pkhuong: I think it is the very job description of a president to have "intuition" about things that we don't know how to measure. If they don't have that intuition, they don't deserve their salaries. 16:33:45 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-30-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:33:54 beach: how is a president to have intuition about individual workers? 16:34:05 beach: ok. So I think the bottleneck isn't actually the decisions between C++ and Lisp, because yes although C++ is terrible and Lisp isn't, there's lots more damage caused by bad reasoning, faulty statistics, bad specifications, poor system design, market misunderstandings, and just general evil 16:34:21 It's definitely a big part of the job to handle intangibles. 16:34:34 bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:46 thank goodness the Quantitative Finance people were using C++ and not Lisp -- if they were using Lisp they'd have been 10 times as good at destroying value :-) 16:35:45 maden: Practical Common Lisp is a book about Common Lisp, ANSI was the governing body of the Common Lisp standardisation 16:36:02 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:36:11 pkhuong: They put in place a hiring process that takes into account factors that make a difference. 16:36:23 oh 16:36:55 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.227.17] has joined #lisp 16:36:58 well, and Common Lisp is a general purpose programming language 16:37:40 Krystof: Just because there are factors that play a more important role than the choice of languages, tools and people, doesn't mean we should ignore these factors. It's like my students refusing to touch type because there are more important things to improve. 16:37:48 beach: really? I'd love to see a study on that (first, we'd have to find measurable quality indicators, and even that looks like a challenge) 16:37:50 *beach* vanishes to fix dinner. 16:38:00 stassats`: thank you. I understand now 16:38:42 beach: Of course there are more important things to improve than typing speed: The accuracy on the speech recognizer on one's dictation system. 16:39:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:39:01 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:39:01 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:02 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has joined #lisp 16:39:04 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 16:39:05 -!- palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:10 pkhuong: In academic research you would need to quantify things. I am convinced that industry must be based on intuition for factors we currently don't know how to measure. Basing decisions on assuming there is no difference just because we are ignorant of the domain, seems like the totally wrong way to run a company. 16:39:22 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has joined #lisp 16:39:22 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:31 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:39:39 *beach* really leaves. 16:42:25 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d557540-CM00222d55753d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 16:42:37 tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:40 -!- tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:58 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:47:46 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has joined #lisp 16:48:32 beach: we shouldn't ignore those factors, but we can't be surprised to find that they don't in fact offer a compelling reason to switch 16:49:02 it's like decreasing by 50% the runtime of a routine which contributes 1% of the total run time of an application 16:49:33 it's a nice optimization, but from the systemic level that optimization might not be the best use of resources 16:50:09 in an environment where there are barriers to entry, it can easily end up as a net loss (just as you might never recover the time spent in doing that optimization from the increased speed) 16:50:13 enjoy dinner :-) 16:51:48 Kyril [~RogerBaco@bas3-sherbrooke40-1242416304.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:52:16 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:20 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1279375297.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:52:30 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:04 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:58 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:57:43 -!- lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:20 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:59:31 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 16:59:52 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-031-168.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01:57 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:07:44 frankly, i often get the impression that the suggestion of using something else outside of C/C++ is like suggesting "dress in pink and put on a clown nose". 17:08:32 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86 17:09:05 and it seems to be out of the question for pretty much the same reasons 17:09:37 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:10:01 -!- Kyril [~RogerBaco@bas3-sherbrooke40-1242416304.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:12:22 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:13:05 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:13:53 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:14:30 tcr: do you think you'd save some complexity with condvar/mutex if instead you had a semaphore associated with each thread? 17:15:39 is there something obviously wrong with doing something like: (defpackage :mypackage (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot :cl-who :postmodern))? 17:16:09 hypno: you could use uninterned symbols or strings to avoid interning keywords 17:16:39 pkhuong: i used that first, if you mean like, (postmodern:FOO) or (cl-who:htm) or somesuch. 17:16:59 no. I mean (:use "COMMON-LISP" #:hunchentoot ...) 17:17:03 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 17:17:10 and i actually sort of like it that way, but oddly enough i get errors in my code if i do include the others as above. 17:17:20 hypno: what error? 17:17:50 The pattern would be to shove a pointer to the semaphore everywhere you want to wait on, then wait on it, and post to wake. We have a single waiter but any number of wakers, so the situation is simpler than with condvars. 17:17:57 it complains about somewhere in the codepath of CL-WHO i think. (#1#) blah blah. i'll have to check again... 17:19:07 pkhuong: I haven't yet been struck by the enlightenment how semaphores can replace mutex+cvar. I change state, need a critical section, but have to wait for something to become true. (with-mutex ...) (wait-for-semaphore) (with-mutex ...) looks possibly raceful, I'd need to think about it 17:19:45 They'd be useful when you don't need to wait *in* the critical section. 17:20:25 The pattern would be (loop (with-mutex ...) (enqueue-self) (wait-for-semaphore) (dequeue-self)). 17:20:31 Yes I can see that to be useful on top of lock-free stuff like the mailbox implementation 17:20:45 right. 17:21:47 I'd really like to benchmark sb-concurrency:mailbox to find out how it does (I don't think too well, but I'd like to acquire the skill to measure!) 17:22:17 seamus-android [~alistair@host86-178-140-209.range86-178.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:41 -someday- :-) 17:23:07 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:07 pkhuong: I must show you something: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97634 17:23:53 neat. 17:24:29 (actually, the enqueue would be inside the critical region) 17:24:56 sure, still looks possibly racy :-) 17:25:13 the only race is spurious wakeups. 17:25:39 Kyril [~RogerBaco@bas3-sherbrooke40-1242416304.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:26:04 perhaps it can work out, assuming semaphore work precisely 17:26:47 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:22 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:27:35 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:27:51 huh I just realized that the lookup-in-hashtable way to check for cycles fails in case of sharing 17:28:46 seems like using dto/bfs numbers for detecing cycles is more bullet proof :-) 17:28:53 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:29:20 huh? no, it works fine. 17:29:20 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 You just have to clear the set of parents when you go back up. 17:29:52 in a DAG? 17:29:59 yeah 17:29:59 there's no cycle in a DAG> 17:30:26 bah :-P I mean to testify for DAGness 17:30:31 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.227.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:54 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.185] has joined #lisp 17:31:14 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:06 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:34:14 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-253-149.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:27 bad_alloc [~marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-216-020.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:04 hello, i have a question concerning the packaging system: i have installed cl-irc via apt-get and it installed to /usr/share/common-lisp/source/. however (require :cl-irc) fails even if i add zcl-irc to *modules* with provide. what did i miss? 17:37:04 ... that using distro packages for lisp stuff is generally disrecommended? 17:37:42 yes i didn't know that. how should i install cl-irc? 17:37:49 minion: tell bad_alloc about clbuild 17:37:50 bad_alloc: please see clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 17:38:05 thanks 17:38:08 I'd pull the source repository and find the dependencies myself. 17:38:23 Provided that said dependencies aren't too nasty. 17:38:32 bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:16 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:06 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:08 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:41:32 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDAA7AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:42:33 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:42:52 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43:17 nyef: do you mean downloading the source and loading all files manually? 17:43:35 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:44:18 How can I make SBCL forget about a structure? Seems like it got deeply confused due to a redefinition 17:45:18 try uninterning 17:45:28 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:50 bad_alloc: I mean, I installed bloody subversion in order to pull down the source. 17:46:09 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:17 As far as loading all the files manually, heck no. That's what ASDF is for, if you're of a mind to use it. 17:46:32 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-93-251.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:46:44 tcr: sometimes the best way is to reset. Otherwise live instances of the old definition trigger errors randomly. 17:47:06 Yes that's what I just experienced 17:47:26 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d557540-CM00222d55753d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:46 now I'm trying to remember my changes (which I have to load in individually) so I can get back to working state :-) 17:47:58 *nyef* has had gc assert problems due to struct redefinition before. 17:48:35 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:48:44 hm it usually works for me, but this time I'm using structures at compile-time 17:48:54 Ever since, my policy has been some variation on a full reset, or keeping track of exactly what needs to be cleaned up when redefining, or just using classes instead. 17:49:11 Ah, fun. Make-load-form? 17:49:34 HG` [~HG@xdslee077.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:40 nope a la defstruct-descriptors 17:50:00 which may actually get dumped, in my case it's compile-time only stuff though 17:50:20 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:34 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:51:06 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:54:13 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:54:33 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.185] has joined #lisp 17:55:19 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.185] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:38 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 17:56:00 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.155.231] has joined #lisp 17:57:24 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:38 Hello, everyone. I've been following the 'Practical Common Lisp' book and found something I didn't quite understand regarding the DO loop. 18:00:59 Oh? 18:01:42 I've defined a MY-UGLY-DOTIMES loop and compared it to DOTIMES, and the standard DOTIMES has a &BODY BODY argument. Mine uses &REST BODY. What's the difference? 18:01:43 *nyef* admits that he'll reach for almost -any- other iteration construct before he'll consider a DO loop. 18:01:46 gwynddyllyd pasted "What is this '&BODY BODY' at DO's definition?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97648 18:01:52 Ah. 18:01:56 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 18:02:11 clhs &body 18:02:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm 18:02:18 The difference between &REST and &BODY is in the way that a context-aware indent function will treat the forms. 18:02:29 "&body is identical in function to &rest, but it can be used to inform certain output-formatting and editing functions that the remainder of the form is 18:02:29 treated as a body, and should be indented accordingly." 18:03:32 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:38 nyef, stassats`: Many thanks. Should I wait further chapters before reading this 'Section 3.4.4.1 (Destructuring by Lambda Lists'? 18:05:58 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:16 (I mean if it would need some previous knowledge that's exposed in the book in a more linear 'pedagogical' way) 18:06:22 I'd recommend it, but I'd also recommend reading as your curiousity takes you. 18:06:26 In my cl learning cycle, i'm entering a through of an uprecedented depth. 18:07:41 ENOSENSE :-) 18:07:42 common lisp will do that to you 18:08:02 Lovely. CLIM layout is done purely in terms of rectangular areas in device units, but actual sizing and placement is done in terms of arbitrary regions and possibly-arbitrary affine transforms. 18:08:10 nyef: I couldn't help myself. I'm reading the section right now. 18:08:15 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 18:08:33 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:35 gwynddyllyd: I probably wouldn't have been able to help myself either. 18:08:43 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:09:28 lhz: To be fair, I am most likely not the usual computing science student. I graduated as an industrial designer. I am still finding out what's deep in the area. 18:10:50 By the time I was graduating, most of the things I was doing needed a lot of 'grunt work' and programming always helped. But there's always a deeper level. I have just bought the Princeton Companion to Mathematics to help on learning computing science. 18:11:21 And I have to say that Common Lisp is a refreshing experience compared to what I was dealing before - Python and Haskell. 18:11:41 heh, you can get alot worse than those two :P 18:12:53 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:01 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:44 I still need to look at haskell at some point. And the various MLs, and erlang, and... 18:14:28 kleppari: I am yet to see something as painful as Haskell. I felt constrained the entire time by the type system and juggling with its delayed evaluation model. Maybe once I understand the concepts of the type system theoretically I'll get back to it. But I doubt I'll spend too much time with it. 18:14:31 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 18:14:34 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:14:53 gwynddyllyd: there's always eager haskell. 18:15:03 gwynddyllyd: interesting 18:15:06 I couldn't get past haskell's syntax 18:15:14 *prxq* neither 18:15:17 nyef: I found a book about systems programming with OCaml online, but I want to spend some time with Lisp first. 18:15:25 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082B97F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:45 pkhuong: Do you need a separate compiler? 18:15:49 *prxq* didn't try hard at all 18:15:54 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:55 gwynddyllyd: ocaml has some nice charm. and some annoyingness :) 18:16:42 gwynddyllyd: it's an oldish research project. There has been some rumours that SPJ thinks strict/non-lazy evaluation is the better *default* for future versions of the standard. 18:16:49 schme: +. ? (: 18:17:00 -!- bad_alloc [~marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-216-020.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot.] 18:17:02 pkhuong: eeexactly :) 18:17:29 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslee077.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 18:17:36 bytecolor: I actually find the pattern-matching and function definitions part lovely. It's just the crazy hoops you have to go through to sequence things that makes me hate its syntax. 18:17:45 also, if python is naive in its optimisations, I don't know what to call ocamlopt. 18:17:45 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-107-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:54 Krystof: Interestingly, industry is very interested in productivity when it comes to negociating salary. The fact that two people hired can have a difference in productivity of a factor 20 doesn't seem to bother them then. 18:18:26 Krystof: If individual productivity counted that little, why don't we see salaries double? 18:18:39 schme: I looked at its syntax and saw only seas of 'let'. Its pattern-matching seems clumsy as well. But I recently found out (because of Lisp!) that syntax is not that much of an issue. 18:18:46 (for me) 18:18:58 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B7F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:15:14 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:14 19:15:14 -!- names: ccl-logbot HG` Oddity amaron isomer`` maden alley_cat attila_lendvai saikat_ christoph_debian ace4016 setheus tompa lichtblau toekutr daniel__1 kwinz3 lukjad86 gwynddyllyd htk_ udzinari sugarshark ehu bipt adeht kejsaren seamus-android skeledrew quidnunc xristos palter merl15__ phax marioxcc fisxoj Axioplas1_ Nshag Yamazaki-kun jewel rtra stassats` Odin- rpg legumbre LiamH Tanami Sergio` Joreji carlocci easyE nyef tsuru dto Taggnostr kpreid grouzen wgl 19:15:14 -!- names: lnostdal rayservers alama qsun Guthur lat slash_ milanj ASau tcr prxq xenosoz2 Yuuhi Athas xinming plutonas lhz ichernetsky morphling Soulman konr benny mrSpec freiksenet ianmcorvidae REPLeffect hugod _macro synthase mizai sykopomp johnzorn Aisling Xach chrisfr kleppari holycow nixeagle fihi09``` AntiSpamMeta rread Amadiro redline6561 sid3k nowhere_man lonstein spoofy plan9 potatishandlarn prip beach peterbb Tordek BrianRice pkhuong mjonsson porcelina 19:15:14 -!- names: drwho_ billstclair Borkamaniac nipra Wombatzus nuba Jasko koning_r1bot Adamant cmm bytecolor boyscared gz Soulman__ mathrick pchrist blitz_ billitch Khisanth yahooooo schme bgs100 Ralith fnordus andreer emma Madsy^ madnificent anekos_ WOG newfurniturey Elench araujo CrEddy kajic herbieB Riqpe lharc ``Erik ecraven ski derefed felipe Demosthenes Tabmow Anarch glogic borism guaqua psc_bw codemonkeyx fgtech dym goosemo _3b foom Pepe_ thijso nicolai cYmen 19:15:14 -!- names: Krystof johs franki^ rotty Dodek kvsari p_l qebab m4thrick dmelani Xantoz ve cataska Draggor eno Patzy reb arbscht drforr frodef scode mgr_ joast dalkvist zbigniew randa ramus jroes bdowning Fade frontiers hicx174 PuffTheMagic lemoinem Intensity retupmoca cpt_nemo dmiles_afk srcerer tltstc Borbus joga Arelius hdurer_ sepisultrum eldragon l_a_m deepfire yacin fda314925 cmatei djinni` BeZerk gl coyo housel bakkdoor clog stepnem clop kencausey egn Xof rahul 19:15:14 -!- names: jyujin stettberger Zhivago adlai_ tychoish KatrinaTheLamia luis specbot lisppaste minion mikezor pr z0d UnderTaLker slyrus jsnell _3b` tomaw Trystam Adrinael mornfall df_aldur sytse vsync Reinout_Stevens ennen jrockway blast_hardcheese cods aCiD2 [df] froydnj rootzlevel slather Helheim hc_e djm Buganini nullman hypno rsynnott antifuchs ineiros tic mtd p8m kom_ kuwabara Ginei_Morioka nasloc__ dostoyev1ky rapacity hsaliak hdurer__ hohum koollman spiaggia 19:15:14 -!- names: dejones rikjasnon krappie pok ironChicken tmitt Raptelan bfein dcrawford tvaalen mle-lucca 19:17:29 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.155.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:33 Hrm, I'd really to have key bindings to quickly switch to package.lisp, and .asd file 19:19:02 gotta get used to the slime-selector and add those to it 19:19:19 Anyone who uses slime-selector? Where did you bind it to? 19:19:25 to C-z 19:19:36 jamesstanley [~james@cpc2-stav6-0-0-cust1435.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:38 tcr: if yo have a super key... I bind it to super + space 19:19:40 That's a fair binding, C-z is otherwise useless... 19:19:51 *you bah 19:19:53 -!- isomer`` [~isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:20:43 stassats`: I'm on qwertz unfortunately 19:21:05 otherwise that sounded like a good choice 19:21:19 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 19:21:19 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has quit [Quit: palter] 19:22:10 Didn't C-z once upon do "iconify all" or something like that? 19:22:10 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:19 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:22:49 rpg: Yeah, or whatever it does in a terminal. 19:23:03 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:23:14 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-14-247.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:24:14 What is the normal way to dispatch on something like "foo bar" rather then on a class. I'm thinking about generic functions or maybe there is something else out there for that. 19:24:53 with something you mean strings? 19:25:07 tcr: or any other non eql thing 19:25:53 nixeagle: intern the non-eql argument in a wrapper function, or dispatch yourself. 19:25:58 Well, the portable way is to try to squeeze the thing into a symbol to be able to eql specialize on it 19:26:03 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:15 the clean way is to use a weak hash table ;) 19:26:31 string= specializers! 19:26:36 oh, right. 19:27:20 a solution looking for a problem! 19:27:24 you can't do specializers portably though. The MOP does not even have very good support for that. sb-pcl has a method that can be used, but that is about it :P 19:27:36 go me 19:28:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:28:36 weak hash tables with a string= test will never drop entries with string keys, surely? 19:28:59 pkhuong: does using closure mean using value-cell? Just thinking loud when closures are used due to performance. 19:29:20 lhz: only mutable closed-over bindings. 19:29:35 Krystof: you can be weak on the value. 19:29:43 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C2FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:30:03 Not that that's going to be helpful for methods... 19:31:05 gethash specializers! 19:31:40 tcr: filtered functions? 19:31:44 You can do string= if you mess with sb-pcl, I did that for a little bit, but it is no where near portable. filtered-functions is nice, but it was causing me issues when I had more then a few methods and filters. 19:32:19 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:25 nixeagle: don't use PCL and use a specialised dispatch function. 19:32:47 My brain filtered filtered functions out of radius of awareness 19:33:01 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:33:38 the thing that made me laugh a bit about filtered functions was the announcement "with a portable use of the MOP[*]" 19:33:41 Has anyone seen clojure's isa? thing and how they do dispatch using that?. I don't have a clue how useful that was in practice though. 19:33:44 "[*] works only on sbcl" 19:33:59 Krystof: it works on 6 implementations now. 19:34:13 it just works slowly on most :) 19:40:14 *nixeagle* wanders off to try to find an elegant solution to this that is not dog slow :> 19:40:58 Write/use a pattern matcher and win. 19:41:32 pkhuong: like cl-unification? 19:41:54 Not if you want performance. 19:43:10 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:34 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:43 pkhuong: I think I understand what you mean. I'm staring at the :trace-file output of (defun make-cpu () (let ((pc 0)) (lambda () (incf pc)))) 19:45:08 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:21 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66407e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 19:45:45 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DE1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:02 Not as fun when it also affects local functions. 19:47:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:49:27 isomer`` [~isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:35 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 19:55:33 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-19-144.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:57:28 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:58:19 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:59:45 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02:02 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:21 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 20:03:29 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 20:08:34 -!- hdurer__ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:42 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-154.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:04 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-24-194.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:07 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 -!- isomer`` [~isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:18:57 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-128-109.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 20:19:30 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:19 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:29:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:30:16 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:52 marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has joined #lisp 20:32:21 -!- mizai [~matthew@164.107.202.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:32:59 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-ajrovyrsbbhanaeu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:32:59 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 20:34:26 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-5eea0a6a-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 20:34:54 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:38:05 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:32 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-201.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:33 -!- chrisfr [~chrisf@24-107-120-7.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [] 20:46:41 mizai [~matthew@rste-164-107-233-240.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 20:47:12 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-4-164.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:49:06 Wow. It /is/ rather easy to cut and paste dispatch handlers in hunchentoot and then forget to update the god damn handler function. heh. 20:49:55 anyone else here feels that the criticism that has been directed against asdf is exaggerated? 20:50:17 isomer`` [~isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:53 konr1 [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 20:52:20 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:52:37 it has many shortcoming 20:52:40 +s 20:52:41 prxq: At this point in my hacking life, I no longer bother writing ASDF system definitions. 20:52:41 i only have problems with ASDF when doing introspection, otherwise i use it just to load some files in particular order with some dependencies, with which I have no problems 20:53:08 nyef: what do you do then? 20:53:30 minion: paste 97637? 20:53:30 Paste number 97637: "A system and method for loading one-package-per-file software in the right order" by nyef in None. http://paste.lisp.org/display/97637 20:53:36 tcr: what are these? 20:53:44 This morning, I did that. 20:54:20 prxq: Look at the LP project for asdf, I reported many. 20:54:21 nyef: yeah... 20:54:45 tcr: what's an LP project? 20:54:52 Each of my files started with a defpackage, so I used the defpackage :use clauses as arcs in a dependency graph to produce a linearized load order. 20:55:00 launchpad 20:55:12 nyef: only have to handle (in-package) and you're good :) 20:55:23 nyef: that's funny 20:55:58 nyef: not sure SORT is supposed to do anything when provided with a partial order. 20:56:51 clhs sort 20:56:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 20:57:01 ISTR it is. 20:57:39 nyef: it only says that you'll always get a permutation of the input 20:57:55 The difference between SORT and STABLE-SORT is on re-ordering elements considered EQUAL by the predicate. 20:57:57 quicksort doesn't work with partial orders, for instance. 20:58:43 tcr: well, arguably those bugs are fixable 20:59:04 I mean, i am talking about people comparing make favorably to asdf. I find that ... strange 20:59:21 pkhuong: What about the paragraph beginning "If the key and predicate always return, then"? 20:59:36 yeah, it only says that you'll get a permutation 20:59:48 but it doesn't say that given a partial order you'll get a toposort 21:00:52 there's a toposort part of pcl, isn't there? 21:01:08 Hrm. That's odd. You appear to be correct, there's no guarantee on a partial order. 21:01:31 nyef: again, probably because n lg n sorts don't work that way. 21:04:28 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:22 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:08:26 woodworks [woodworks@100.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:07 -!- daniel__1 is now known as daniel 21:12:13 -!- mizai [~matthew@rste-164-107-233-240.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:14:19 pkhuong: since sort has <=, isn't it a partial order? 21:14:36 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:48 no, it's a preorder. 21:15:00 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:15:17 pkhuong: Ah. Thanks, that's right. I was confusing the two. It's been a long time since I took abstract algebra. 21:15:45 cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:45 pkhuong: But there's a remark in there about what happens if there's not a true total order. 21:15:56 which says that SORT won't lose data. 21:16:35 You won't lose data, but you aren't guaranteed that it's in order. 21:17:35 how do you know when you've hit the end of the stream when using read-sequence? 21:18:09 cddr: with the return value. 21:18:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:40 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7556ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:48 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:48 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 (when (< pos buf-size)) ? That's what I thought but my handler hangs when trying to read hunchentoot's raw-post-data 21:22:19 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-154.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:01 off by one? 21:23:53 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-24-194.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:26:23 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:57 -!- isomer`` [~isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:27:00 woo hoo, I got the first texture example from the opengl prog guide to work. 21:27:09 anyone here working on the lispbuilder project? 21:27:57 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:57 i guess balooga is 21:28:02 oh? 21:28:25 oh? 21:29:03 there is only one opengl example with it, this would make a good addition as it mucks around with cffi, populating a 64x64x4 C array 21:29:12 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-14-247.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:30 *nyef* winces at the thought of texture-mapping in opengl from lisp. 21:29:53 Why a C array with those dimensions and not a lisp array? 21:30:11 nyef: ahaha, well if I were better with cffi, it probably wouldnt have taken near as much effort 21:31:11 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:31:17 just use cl-devil for textures its infinitely less painful 21:31:23 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:30 *bytecolor* googles 21:31:32 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 21:31:38 nyef: pinnable lisp arrays? 21:31:41 francogrex [~user@159.112-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:32:15 ... Oh, they need to actually remain allocated? 21:34:12 nyef: I guess it depends on what type of texture. 21:34:38 balooga: it's created programatically, not loaded 21:35:14 CL-Opengl accepts lisp arrays for texture information 21:36:34 Ah. My mental model is probably skewed by the client-server nature of indirect-rendered GLX. 21:36:49 bytecolor pasted "lispbuilder-opengl texture" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97657 21:37:22 Guthur: oh? hrm, is cl-opengl still being developed? 21:37:56 bytecolor: it's been aggressively forked. 21:38:04 I dont know how I got started with lispbuilder, probably an SDL interest 21:38:07 bytecolor: I don't think the official repo has the support for 3.x 21:38:22 but that is available from _3b` github 21:38:51 I created and used my own derivative of that one 21:39:01 Only a minor change really 21:39:07 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:12 -!- woodworks [woodworks@100.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:39:27 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-173-095-170-024.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:13 Guthur: isn't _3b's an official now? 21:40:16 I dont know what I need to free when dealing with cffi. Anything I alloc? 21:40:28 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:40:46 stassats`: Couldn't be, definitely should be 21:40:53 -!- francogrex [~user@159.112-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:40:53 COuldn't/could 21:41:32 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/ links to github.com/3b/ 21:41:35 I'm freeing *check-image*, but not *tex-name*, both of which are, I'm assuming, heap allocations 21:42:21 bytecolor: if you used foreign-alloc, then you should free the result. 21:43:30 Yep, and that repo includes the update to enable opengl 3.x and 4.0 21:47:23 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:49:30 pkhuong: kinda funky writing cl code and having to free memory ;) 21:49:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:49:42 I was getting spoiled! 21:49:52 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50:15 maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:50:42 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:51:02 hrm, does cl-opengl require clx? seems like that's why I quit fsking with it 21:51:49 bytecolor: you can wrap that with the call-with-foo/with-foo combo and/or a finaliser. 21:52:03 it doesn't 21:53:10 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051105209.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:53:34 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:06 bytecolor: It comes with bindings to glut 21:54:09 bytecolor: you may have more luck in #lispgames :) 21:54:14 ah 21:54:43 madnificent: nod, I lurk there occasionaly ;) 21:55:08 bytecolor: Some Window creation libs -> cl-glut, cl-glfw, glop 21:55:31 They include OGL context creation 21:55:56 Guthur: that's what I like about the lispbuilder stuff, SDL handling the wm 21:56:00 There is of course lispbuilder but balooga is that man there 21:56:08 that/the 21:56:22 Ya lispbuilder is pretty neat 21:56:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:56:53 Balooga and the others have done some great work with that. 21:57:31 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:07 I was thinking about converting all the examples from the gl prog guide. 1) It would be fun. 2) I'd learn a lot about gl, cffi, and cl. 3) It would supply more examples for lispbuilder-opengl. 21:59:11 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:20 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:59:36 although I think the guide I have is kinda dated 22:00:35 which gl guide? 22:00:55 the red book? 22:01:03 The ones on the kronos site wiki are of surprisingly poor quality 22:01:28 not sure, it's a pdf I found somewhere "The Official Guide to Learning OpenGL, Version 1.1" 22:03:39 nod, the red book, hrm 5th edition is out. I'm a wee bit behind with the 2nd. ;) 22:09:43 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:00 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:21:32 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:28:48 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:50 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDAA7AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:30:24 bytecolor annotated #97657 "fixed top-level alloc bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97657#1 22:31:06 bytecolor: why do you use double colons? 22:32:02 pkhuong: I actually just learned the diff in : and ::. 22:32:29 I dont think gl:glfoo are external 22:32:57 or maybe it was the way I created a package I'm still learning ;) 22:32:57 then maybe you shouldn't use them. 22:33:33 pkhuong: nod, I think for the gl package, _nothing_ is exported 22:33:59 I could be wrong though, and just don't know what the hell I'm doing 22:34:47 <_3b> why use lispbuilder-opengl? 22:35:02 22:35:50 <_3b> last i heard, lispbuilder devs suggested using cl-opengl instead 22:35:59 oh? hrm 22:36:15 maybe I'll give it another whirl 22:36:49 <_3b> cl-opengl works fine with lispbuilder-sdl, just have to add 1 line somewhere to connect the 2 (assuming you want to use anything more recent than gl 1.1 or so portably) 22:37:26 sounds good 22:43:48 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:07 what's the alternative to require? cltl2 says it's been deleted, and the hyperspec says it's obsolete/deprecated? I seed require in a ton of code. 22:44:23 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:28 <_3b> asdf 22:45:23 you shouldn't base your decisions on the "deprecated" notice in CLHS 22:45:39 ok, so the :depends-on clause makes sure it's loaded? 22:46:32 stassats`: well cltl2 used the word `deleted' and that was quite a number of years ago ;) 22:46:50 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslex219.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47:29 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:47:43 i think you know how cltl2 is related to ANSI Common Lisp 22:48:09 it pre-dates it, but other than that... 22:48:11 woodworks [woodworks@23.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:40 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:48 so, you shouldn't use it as a standard 22:48:59 I'd rather read gls than pg. 22:49:31 nod 22:49:43 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:49:50 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:50:02 what a confusing book name pg took (i didn't mean it) 22:50:52 someone earlier today thought that "Practical Common Lisp" is a language name 22:51:27 cltl2 is a kick arse book though, you have to admit. 22:51:28 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:53:02 12 forms interpreted 84 lambdas converted 22:53:02 22:53:09 now i need to find where that happens 22:53:16 sb-alien? 22:53:43 i don't think drakma uses it 22:54:26 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:54:33 i guess that compilation is the source of slowness, compared to CCL 22:56:02 -!- bytecolor [~user@70.133.64.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:49 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:13 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:21 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:01:31 -!- jamesstanley [~james@cpc2-stav6-0-0-cust1435.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:42 stassats`: did that line come from (time (..)) 23:02:49 it's from sb-bsd-sockets, that might use sb-alien 23:02:52 Guthur: yes 23:03:11 I've noticed that happen on the first run myself 23:03:46 I think it usually disappeared in subsequent runs 23:03:50 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-212-176.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:04:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: ] 23:04:27 lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:59 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:07 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:06:09 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:06:48 pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:35 stripped down to (time (sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "localhost")) 23:07:44 isomer`` [~isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:29 which indeed says "could not optimize away %SAP-ALIEN" 23:09:07 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:09:17 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:09:57 stassats` is that what that lambda conversion line relates to? 23:10:07 Guthur: yes 23:10:26 stassats`: it's in make-host-ent. 23:10:53 I suppose I was using CFFI, which must have been the culprit then 23:11:59 In CL, when using (format nil "~r" 342) is it possible to get the text in british format, that is "three hundred and forty-two" instead of "three hundred forty-two"? 23:12:09 stassats`: sockint::hostent-addresses... 23:12:59 i don't know a bit about alien 23:13:50 it doesn't help that that form is inside a loop. 23:20:38 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:45 -!- isomer`` [~isomer@CPE00226b8ab7f9-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:24:38 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:28:58 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:30:28 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1279375297.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:48 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:56 tcr: you know, there's one very good reason to switch to semaphores: they return when interrupted, and they're asynch sig safe. 23:31:57 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:06 Kyril [~RogerBaco@bas3-sherbrooke40-1242416304.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:32:09 Instead of allowing interrupts, we could check on return. 23:32:22 Any ideas how to get parenscript to produce '\u00A0' 23:32:41 oh wait nnm 23:32:43 nvm 23:33:44 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:18 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:36:08 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:19 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:46:00 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:48:04 -!- woodworks [woodworks@23.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:48:17 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:53:54 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.150.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:54:17 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:53 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:55:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:55:58 marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.133] has joined #lisp 23:56:13 am i allowed to call slot-value-using-class directly? 23:56:30 there's a FIXME in sbcl which asks that question 23:59:52 What would you use it for, and why wouldn't it be allowed?