00:04:02 nyef: do you ever sleep :) 00:05:20 balooga [~00u4440@76.194.233.139] has joined #lisp 00:05:23 *TeMPOraL* has enough Lisp for tonight 00:05:28 'night all :) 00:05:54 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@178.182.43.39.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: () .•«UPP»•.] 00:10:54 devslashnull [~james@dyn-167.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:16:24 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:15 -!- iisjmii [~iisjmii@dhcp-077-248-135-196.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:10 -!- devslashnull [~james@dyn-167.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:23:23 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 00:23:54 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:55 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:12 udzinari: Yes. But I have at least three hours until then. 00:27:35 -!- balooga [~00u4440@76.194.233.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:32:09 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:35:12 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:08 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:36:36 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:37:02 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:39:30 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 00:40:08 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:40:56 Guthur [~Michael@host81-131-241-198.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:24 rares [~rares@174-26-77-184.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:03 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:43:49 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has quit [Quit: palter] 00:44:47 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:45:36 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:14 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-77-184.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:16 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:47:48 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:54 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 00:51:12 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:52:01 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:53:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-51-110.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:55:24 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-6-44.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:56:35 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:58:30 nyef: wow, excellent cleanups. do the package changes save a bit of fasl size to boot? 00:58:37 No idea. 00:58:46 I was more trying to make bootstrapping easier to understand. 00:59:18 *nyef* smirks. 00:59:31 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:42 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:06 nyef: heh 01:00:09 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:16 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:18 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00:43 Getting rid of fop-maybe-cold-load has been on my list of things to do for years now. 01:01:57 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:36 My next trick involves moving all that C header junk out of genesis. 01:05:32 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:29 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:47 sbahra [~sbahra@c-68-33-18-207.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:41 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:08:41 -!- quotemstr_ is now known as quotemstr 01:08:56 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.13] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:09:21 *rvirding* has had enough for tonight 01:09:27 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:13:19 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:13:59 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:03 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.54] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:17:12 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:53 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:22:51 -!- _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:31:48 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:04 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:38:58 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 01:39:03 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 01:39:48 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:42:41 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:04 felideon_away [~felideon@adsl-223-182-12.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:13 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@c-68-33-18-207.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:10 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 01:48:13 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:48:18 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:11 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:00 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:07 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:01:44 evening 02:03:08 yo slyrus_ 02:03:26 oh, dinner time... 02:04:49 -!- Drakeson [~user@76-10-161-248.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:05:15 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:43 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1279375297.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:29 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:21 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:22:56 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:21 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:34 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 02:26:54 Hrm... Well, I got a cold-core, but the headers didn't compare... due to not having output the second set. 02:29:09 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.10.7] has quit [Quit: netytan] 02:31:55 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:35:19 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:51 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 02:46:59 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:49:22 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.202.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:52:59 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:54:16 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:05 -!- threeve [~threeve@99-60-9-241.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: threeve] 03:04:44 -!- Edward 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[~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has joined #lisp 04:28:44 -!- buffered [~sk@need.help.with.lisp.su] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:30:00 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:30:34 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:32:26 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:32 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:05 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:24 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:13 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:16 grumble grumble... 04:43:17 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 04:43:23 -!- felideon_away is now known as felideon 04:44:37 hi slyrus 04:44:56 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:29 *Fare* resurrects xcvb... regression tests are good 04:46:47 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:47:09 *Fare* bootstraps xcvb with xcvb... 04:48:18 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-223-182-12.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:52:45 leifw [~user@2002:4243:7fb9:1234:216:eaff:fee5:d76c] has joined #lisp 04:54:08 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-221-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:51 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:00:05 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 05:01:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.213] has joined #lisp 05:02:34 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B79E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:44 stokachew [~adam@nat/redhat/x-oqxntpagkhluwwxi] has joined #lisp 05:02:47 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-zbfguonxzkofstlm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:04:38 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AE48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:06:54 *slyrus* wonders if this x86-64/darwin/threads problem will miraculously disappear with nyef's recent changes... 05:07:14 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:07:19 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:49 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:08:53 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:11:02 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:12:32 smanek [~smanek@adsl-70-232-160-244.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vwyusbnakpramehu] has joined #lisp 05:23:38 hrmm... hang in the sb-concurrency tests 05:25:14 hello slyrus 05:25:19 [and good morning everyone] 05:25:21 hey beach! 05:26:06 hello, beach 05:26:52 good morning 05:31:27 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-d28472d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:31:36 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:33:44 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38:48 and here we are again, stuck in SB-CONCURRENCY-TEST::MAILBOX-TRIVIA.3 05:39:30 gah, binascii doesn't compile on clisp. Sigh. 05:41:04 just a missing quote. 05:41:47 I can tell froydnj only uses sbcl 05:43:16 mega1 [~quassel@4d6f4d53.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 05:43:27 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:44:34 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@3e44a356.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:46:32 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:49:16 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:54:10 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:55:53 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-221-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:01:45 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 06:02:56 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-7-29.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:03:04 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:04:38 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:39 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:06:52 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:07:54 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:07:54 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 06:07:54 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-134-226.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:12:00 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:12:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:14:26 make-string defaults to character which generally includes extended-chars.. do people sometimes make string with the element type base-char to be efficient? 06:15:08 thugh i notice on clisp the entire range is base-chars.. pretty much doesnt have to use extended chars 06:15:49 sbcl seems to actually make it character 06:16:16 clisp: (type-of (make-string 4335)) => (SIMPLE-BASE-STRING 4335) 06:17:40 so they are both effectivly character was what i was going to say... 06:17:55 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:18:10 gavino [~g@207-180-177-44.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:21 but oh what i am about to ask is does people often try to save space by tightening that? 06:18:28 does common lisp support user lvel concurrency and parallelism? 06:18:47 (on clips they wouldnt save space but on sbcl they would by tightening to base-char) 06:18:51 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:53 gavino: I think you already know the answer to that. 06:19:00 brdeaux threads? 06:19:13 clips/clisp 06:19:23 anything like erlang lightweight processes or communicating squential processes of go or plan 9? 06:19:30 CSP 06:19:40 seems quite a advnaced way to handle tat stuff 06:19:47 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:22 vng [~user@123.20.127.60] has joined #lisp 06:20:29 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.205] has joined #lisp 06:20:38 Good afternoon! 06:20:47 dmiles_afk: Few programs use so many and/or so long strings that space considerations might be important. 06:20:50 vng: Hello! 06:20:59 hello beach 06:21:56 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:47 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:25:13 -!- lithper2__ is now known as lithper2_ 06:25:22 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 06:25:25 http://code.google.com/p/libconcurrency/ 06:27:13 vng: You need to know that gavino is a long-term "troll" (meaning somone who persters the participants in places like #lisp and comp.lang.lisp with unrelated information). There is no point in trying to discuss anything with him. 06:27:35 beach is wrong on all counts 06:27:49 I am a curious computer professional who enjoy conversaton. 06:27:50 nope. we should have him klined 06:28:00 BrianRice: you are a fool 06:29:16 beach: ah 06:34:07 kik me 06:34:16 I am sik of gun jumpers 06:35:24 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:36:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:38:15 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 06:41:34 -vng:#lisp- continue to work 06:42:42 keepguessing_ [~7aab10c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-qpsjvoatttozktcy] has joined #lisp 06:43:50 i've seen several places mention SBCL and CLISP as being dialects of Common Lisp. i don't see how the authors came to that conclusion. 06:45:12 hi .. i am new to slime ... I have installed the slime based on the instructions at http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ . When I load emacs I get the following error http://pastebin.com/de6vFuVE .. The .emacs file is also present over there. Thanks. 06:45:30 lithper2_: They are *implementations* of CL, not dialects. 06:46:02 keepguessing_: is slime in /tmp/slime? 06:46:18 beach: exactly, that's what i was confused about, because that seems so obvious. 06:46:21 there is an empty flder there 06:46:27 stassats: ^^^^^ 06:46:31 and why do you store it in /tmp? its content is usually deleted on reboot 06:46:56 well, slime can't come to existence out of empty directory 06:47:02 you need to download it 06:47:15 hmm ... my bad .... possibly thats what must have happened ... thanks stassats :) 06:47:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755fb1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:27 see cvs instructions on that page 06:47:58 and don't put it in /tmp, and also substitute (slime-setup) with (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) 06:48:17 keepguessing_: you can use clbuild to install 06:48:48 vng: clbuild ? Do you have any reference for it? 06:48:53 minion: clbuild 06:48:54 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 06:49:19 refer to the link 06:52:00 -!- keepguessing_ [~7aab10c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-qpsjvoatttozktcy] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:52:55 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:00:03 fhc [~fhc@c-71-227-234-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:29 -!- fhc [~fhc@c-71-227-234-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:05:07 proq` [~user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:06:25 http://ifelipe.net/ 07:06:27 hmm 07:06:46 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:07:21 -!- proq` is now known as proq 07:07:29 -!- proq [~user@71-20-201-84.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:07:30 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 07:08:17 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:15:06 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:15:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:17:59 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:18:05 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:19:25 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #lisp 07:21:43 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:22:45 gko [~gko@114-137-44-48.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:10 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:25:36 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-76.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:30:10 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-110-24.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:33:41 -!- gavino [~g@207-180-177-44.c3-0.bkl-ubr1.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34:32 bah seems like I opened a can of worms with this default special bindings stuff 07:36:05 -!- mega1 [~quassel@4d6f4d53.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:38:53 -!- _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:40:45 fhc [~fhc@c-71-227-234-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:14 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:47 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:47 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:45:16 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:51:43 -!- fhc [~fhc@c-71-227-234-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:54:27 Is there a way to see arguments of the call frames in ldb? 07:56:36 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:01:51 entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:29 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:05:59 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:08:59 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:09:11 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 08:09:26 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:14:40 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:16:46 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:11 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:45 -!- mrSpec is now known as Aurinko 08:21:48 freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.226.4] has joined #lisp 08:22:23 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 08:22:46 -!- Aurinko is now known as mrSpec 08:41:09 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:48 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:43:14 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:57 -!- beach` is now known as beach 08:45:14 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 08:46:46 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:50 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:49:07 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:20 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:29 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:29 bah bitten by t vs * in defknown result type 08:53:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:17 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 08:59:16 -!- hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Quit: hybrid_mind] 09:01:00 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:12 jmbr [~jmbr@244.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:05:40 what was the function in sbcl which tells derived type of a function? 09:05:54 kenyao [~kenyao@61.140.104.215] has joined #lisp 09:06:02 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 09:12:20 fhc [~fhc@c-71-227-234-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:36 tcr: do you know that slime-arglists gets method qualifiers wrong? 09:13:09 -!- fhc [~fhc@c-71-227-234-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:14:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vwyusbnakpramehu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14:06 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 09:15:42 sb-introspect:function-type, but that gives priority to the declared type 09:15:51 and it's going to go away soon 09:16:01 -!- kenyao [~kenyao@61.140.104.215] has quit [Quit: My God! Gone...] 09:16:40 dunno about slime-arglists what does it get wrong? 09:17:12 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 e.g. (defmethod make-instance :before (| 09:17:43 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:19:00 perhaps i shall finally learn how swank-arglists works 09:24:15 ah well that may not be so difficult 09:25:46 another suggestion would be if there is &allow-other-keys and &rest foo it should highlight foo when no keyword is found 09:26:14 that's difficult 09:26:49 for the defmethod bits, just modify the arglist-dispatch 09:27:31 just add the qualifier to the :provided args 09:30:40 tcr pasted "for stassats" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97261 09:31:00 stassats: that's almost there, but the printing is not right yet 09:31:43 make sure to also add a test case to the autodoc.1 test 09:31:52 ok 09:31:58 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 09:33:12 swank-match doesn't have a Kleene star? 09:33:33 dunno 09:33:44 -!- gko [~gko@114-137-44-48.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:34:14 -!- Intensity [vTu5j0ThgX@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:40:06 there's always #S(SWANK::ARGLIST-DUMMY :STRING-REPRESENTATION "") at the end, is this intended? 09:41:25 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:42:16 yes search for Slimefuns in the buffer 09:42:19 -!- p_l [~d5050b81@gateway/web/freenode/x-kzdikuhacahffdao] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:42:21 there's a comment 09:44:54 an empty string is used as a separator? 09:46:13 it means that the user's cursor is not at a thing but after a thing 09:46:27 that's what i meant 09:46:28 (foo bar|) vs (foo bar |) 09:46:35 ok 09:46:57 alright, i just used empty-arg-p 09:54:19 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:54:54 so, how should i know when to use princ-arg and when prin1-arg? maybe prin1-arg for everything? 09:56:00 prin1 for everything doesn't look nice 09:58:07 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:57 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:24 you should probably get rid of prin1-arg 10:04:32 and rename princ-arg to print-arg 10:04:39 and add a special case for keywords 10:04:56 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:05:56 but prin1-arg is used in one place: (&any (arg) (space) (prin1-arg arg)) should i replace it with print-arg too? 10:06:49 sure that's only used for the keywords in eval-when 10:06:52 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:07:39 and with keyword handling it now gets functions from KEYWORD 10:08:11 gets right 10:08:45 rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:29 can you show me the patch? 10:12:02 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:12:33 stassats annotated #97261 "for tcr" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97261#1 10:14:28 I think it should be "until (or (lisp x) (empty-arg-p x))" 10:15:56 hm, autodoc.1 on labels fails, i wonder if broke it back then 10:17:35 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:19:20 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:28:29 i surely did 10:28:40 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:29:35 there's also no test case for eval-when 10:30:16 please add one :-) 10:30:40 ok, after i fix labels 10:31:56 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:12 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 10:36:01 attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.202.127] has joined #lisp 10:37:20 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:07 -!- vng [~user@123.20.127.60] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:38:32 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-116-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:01 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:45:52 - "(error 'simple-condition &rest arguments &key format-arguments format-control)") 10:45:52 + "(error 'simple-condition &rest arguments &key :format-arguments :format-control)") 10:45:58 uhm that's wrong 10:47:06 Whats the plural of a cons? 10:47:08 conses? 10:47:12 yup 10:47:12 list 10:47:13 :) 10:47:29 Heh... no not a list, I mean a pair, ie a cons 10:47:41 i was joking, xavieran 10:47:57 Oh 10:48:00 Ok... :D 10:50:53 -!- pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:51:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:03:26 -!- prip_ [~foo@host149-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:05:27 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:05:42 Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:25 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:10 prip_ [~foo@host54-133-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:15:37 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: quotemstr] 11:17:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:24 -!- knobo```` [~user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:26:46 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Quit: brb] 11:27:42 -!- brad- [~48597c07@gateway/web/freenode/x-zlnirxsibjouunvk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:55 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:29 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 11:37:44 stassats: ? 11:38:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:40:04 Anyone done SICP here? 11:40:23 Care to give suggestions on my web log post on section 2.2.2 ? 11:40:33 http://enjacyna.wordpress.com/2010/04/03/sicp-section-2-2/ 11:41:14 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:41:26 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:44:00 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 11:44:40 xavieran: exercise 2.26 looks wrong 11:45:00 (cons '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) is ((1 2 3) 4 5 6) 11:46:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.213] has joined #lisp 11:46:47 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 11:48:22 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:14 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:52:33 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 11:58:17 Ah, you're right 11:59:10 dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 Guthur [~Michael@host81-131-241-198.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:54 Fixed :) 12:01:31 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 12:02:57 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 12:04:40 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:05:11 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1DFEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:10 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:09:47 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:11:47 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:13:18 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:16:51 p_l [~d5050b81@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqyciivvmzncvdqy] has joined #lisp 12:16:53 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:17:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.213] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:54 tcr: that's how it's now printed 12:20:00 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:25 with the change to print keywords differently, maybe it should use print-arg anymore in that place 12:20:35 G'morning all. 12:20:47 What is the merit of using uninterned symbols in package definitions? 12:21:36 Guthur: They work in so-called "modern" mode, they're lower-case whereas in non-modern mode you would need all-upcase strings... 12:21:56 And using interned symbols would clutter up some other poor package needlessly. 12:22:38 ok, So I should probably do it then? 12:23:39 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:26:01 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:07 carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.37] has joined #lisp 12:29:00 *p_l* notices that CL-HTTP is still at "supported" level for Genera, even for 2010 releases o_O 12:32:53 I have a class and I want to ensure that a specific slot is sorted when creating an instance. I am looking for an example how to add a before method on make-instance 12:33:02 or isn't that the way you are supposed to do it? 12:33:26 Reinout_Stevens: shouldn't it be :after ? 12:33:33 and for #'initialize-instance ? 12:34:18 right, thx 12:34:33 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 12:35:04 ArArAr333 [opera@110.172.19.75] has joined #lisp 12:35:19 <_8david`> okay, so that was a successful (if long overdue) debugging session. http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/hemlock-windows.png 12:37:15 *_8david`* hugs vc for useful messages on stack corruption, and windbg for, well, existing 12:37:17 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:38:24 _8david`: Cool... Maybe I should check hemlock out again one of these days. 12:44:39 *p_l* unfortunately gets segfaults with qthemlock 12:46:22 <_8david`> well, I think I've just fixed _the_ crashing bug in CommonQt, so those might be gone in the future. 12:47:23 So, there's one file in src/compiler/generic/ that isn't mentioned in build-order.lisp-expr. I claim that it does not belong in src/compiler/generic/, and that it needs to be broken up into multiple files, but I don't know if it belongs in a new subdirectory of src/ or if it should go under src/cold/. 12:47:25 Axius [~hi@92.82.77.39] has joined #lisp 12:48:17 <_8david`> The cast needed before calling methods involving multiple inheritance were completely wrong. It's pretty amazing that things had been working at all. 12:48:19 -!- ArArAr333 [opera@110.172.19.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:48:35 _8david`: could you tell what exactly did you fix (i.e. what kind of bug started it?) 12:50:07 <_8david`> there is one cast function per smoke module, and my code always assumed that the object belongs to the first module, i.e. qtcore. So anything in, say, qtgui went wrong. Very stupid mistake, but at least easily fixed after a long stare at the stacktrace. 12:51:45 ... How does sb-heapdump work? 12:53:08 -!- p_l [~d5050b81@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqyciivvmzncvdqy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:54:04 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-45-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:54:52 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755fb1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:33 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755fb1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-51-110.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:56:43 <_8david`> nyef: badly 12:57:54 p_l [~d5050b81@gateway/web/freenode/x-oqtrxaagyklratbn] has joined #lisp 12:58:03 damn, got logged out after my last line 12:58:04 ... I was more hoping for a sentence or two on what it does, not on how well it does it. 12:58:22 *p_l* submitted his bug to hemlock launchpad 12:59:12 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.77.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:00:23 <_8david`> nyef: it walks a graph of objects and writes their in-memory representation to a file, so that you can mmap() the objects back into memory. 13:00:25 <_8david`> There are heuristics telling it at what objects to stop and write a fixup note to the file instead, so that the pointer is restored at load time instead. 13:00:35 Ah. 13:00:53 So the scheme I'm thinking of is quite different. 13:01:21 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 13:01:45 We have two different implementations of something to turn a fasl file into heap objects. 13:03:10 Why not bind a group of fasls into something that can be mmap()ed into the heap, with some additional information on how to tie off the loose ends (such as foreign fixups, symbol references, etc.) 13:03:59 nilboog [~un@unaffiliated/nilboog] has joined #lisp 13:04:32 <_8david`> p_l: try pulling from http://www.lichteblau.com/git/commonqt.git and see if the newest commit helps 13:04:40 Like an .so? :) 13:05:05 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:05:17 <_8david`> nyef: the lose ends are primary problem to solve. I don't know ECL very much, but I suppose that's what it does. 13:05:20 *p_l* dreams of cores using only RIP adressing for all internal pointers, so that he could relocate them in whatever way he wants :D 13:05:40 p_l: I know more-or-less how to go about that for x86-64. 13:05:41 <_8david`> *loose 13:06:55 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:36 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:07:54 nyef: well, amd64 kindof specially made PC-relative addressing easier :D 13:11:13 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 13:14:35 _8david`: ok, got it working, though it constantly complains about finalizers being called and possible memory leaks 13:15:07 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:15 _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 ... I've got LDB 13:15:36 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:17:13 well, at least it worked for a while 13:19:28 <_8david`> that's with 8483bf5e? 13:19:57 yes 13:20:03 stassats: It's just wrong, that's not how lambda-lists looks like 13:20:07 I'll re-run it and post how it changed 13:22:02 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-16-49.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:22:23 *attila_lendvai* notes that _8david`is in fact lichteblau 13:23:32 *p_l* notes that for some unexplainable reason, he returned to point of start 13:25:30 the adress changed, but it still seems like calling QMainWindow.show() is death 13:26:04 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:58 new comment with details on launchpad 13:29:36 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-111-237.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29:39 <_8david`> does CommonQt work outside of Hemlock for you? say, (qt-tutorial-14:main)? 13:31:17 <_8david`> the only crashes I've got a the moment involve using Flash in WebKit in Hemlock, so I'm not certain whether I'm perhaps just stretching it a bit 13:31:22 silas_ [~silas@93-97-226-95.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:32:00 -!- leifw [~user@2002:4243:7fb9:1234:216:eaff:fee5:d76c] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:13 hmmm... looks like t14 fails as well, in a completely different way (I do recall running all tutorials before, with old CommonQT) 13:35:03 except this time it seems that it tries to find class "nil" 13:36:35 <_8david`> oh, sorry, that's a missing commit. make-qapplication in test.lisp needs to (mapc #'ensure-smoke '(:qtcore :qtgui)) rather than just qcore. 13:36:38 reasonably so 13:37:00 <_8david`> ... or t14.lisp itself needs to do that. 13:38:35 also, it looks to me like it's trying to call methods on nothing... 13:38:51 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:39:14 ah, it doesn't 13:40:39 persi [~user@p5DC73181.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:03 the conv.lisp tutorial works 13:44:15 <_8david`> btw, you can ignore the finalizer/leak things. Before finding the MI bug, I had disabled GC integration to avoid non-deterministic bugs when freeing objects. In the future I should reactivate that. 13:44:58 trying to run conv.lisp with a different style fails o_O 13:45:04 -!- persi [~user@p5DC73181.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:45:20 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-131-241-198.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:45:43 hefner [~root@ppp-61-90-103-94.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:47:24 I think it has something to do with SLIME, for some reason. Or the way SWANK plays around, since I can specify different themes without crashes if I run qt-conv without SLIME 13:47:52 <_8david`> are you taking care to eval things in the right threads? 13:49:33 _8david`: till now, I didn't know it was necessary... 13:49:46 <_8david`> there can be only one gui thread (and in theory that must even be the initial OS thread, although I think on X11 that part doesn't actually matter) 13:50:14 yay X11! sanity! 13:50:31 <_8david`> objects are bound to the thread that created them, and while backgrounds threads can use Qt, they are restricted to its non-GUI parts 13:50:40 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:06 <_8david`> E.g., when testing Qt stuff inside of hemlock, there are two correct ways to do it and one incorrect way. 13:52:09 <_8david`> The incorrect way to use Start Slave Thread and type qtgui stuff there, that will fail. 13:52:13 <_8david`> The correct but dangerous one is to do it directly in hemlock's thread (M-: for example). 13:52:21 <_8david`> The correct and safe one is to use Start Slave Process, because then the REPL will actually run in the slave process's initial/only thread. 13:55:18 <_8david`> p_l: I'm not using SLIME, and I think ivan4th did when he wrote qt-repl.asd, it might help. 13:55:32 <_8david`> s/and/but/ 13:55:51 tcr: but that's how swank-arglists represents them, i don't know what's needed to be changed, internal representation or printing 13:59:24 printing 14:00:05 instead of (print-arg keyword) you probably just need (princ keyword) 14:00:24 i'm finally back, so i will look at it now 14:01:01 that may not work if keyword can be the empty arg in that case 14:01:36 i see it, it's testing (not (keywordp keyword)) in the previous cond leg, so it must be a keyword 14:02:10 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d557540-CM00222d55753d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:35 ok, reverted to status quo 14:05:57 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 14:07:14 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:31 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:59 hefner: the fact that Win32 requires initial thread to run GUI might be related to implementation details like "where do I send messages?" 14:19:29 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3FBD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 14:25:00 not just win32. OS X has that sort of issues too. 14:25:40 I'm under the impression that Win32 is a little more forgiving on the issue, though. 14:34:49 netytan [~netytan@85.211.10.7] has joined #lisp 14:37:11 Axius [~hi@92.85.216.202] has joined #lisp 14:42:23 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 14:47:03 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1DFEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:54:22 retupmoca` [~retupmoca@adsl-76-253-126-72.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:06 -!- Axius [~hi@92.85.216.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:55:07 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-61-90-103-94.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:55:30 hefner [~root@ppp-61-90-103-94.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:55:35 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:53 argh fuck 14:58:05 I committed something which I didn't want to commit yet 14:58:14 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-98-188.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:27 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-76-235-201-132.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:44 -!- retupmoca` [~retupmoca@adsl-76-253-126-72.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:26 If your VC system is sane, you should be able to retract it right? 15:03:23 tcr: 1.0.37.30? 15:03:27 I must go right now, though, be back in a about an hour. 15:03:28 .31 15:04:04 Hrm. .30 has some interesting whitespace effects. 15:04:43 they're intended to align the init forms 15:04:54 Ah. 15:05:20 bbl 15:06:11 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 15:06:19 -!- smanek [~smanek@adsl-70-232-160-244.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:07:07 pkhuong: hmm... what way does Aqua communicate with client apps? 15:09:57 No idea, but it's an issue with cl-glut. 15:10:18 There's also some asymetry wrt thread #0 in the mach api. 15:15:40 retupmoca` [~retupmoca@adsl-76-253-126-72.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:07 pkhuong: Which is a better location for a multi-file version of genesis, src/genesis/ or src/cold/genesis/ ? 15:17:31 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 15:19:11 (Part of me says src/cold/genesis/ because it's a build-time utility that doesn't end up in the resulting system. Part of me says src/genesis/ because I can see it being possibly useful outside of just building SBCL.) 15:19:52 frankly, no idea. I'd probably have gone with src/genesis out of laziness. 15:20:29 hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has joined #lisp 15:23:08 I guess that's one vote for src/genesis/. 15:23:45 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:25:14 benny [~benny@i577A1735.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-114.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:56 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 15:29:51 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:54 nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:30 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-216.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:02 -!- nyef_ is now known as nyef 15:31:39 balooga [~00u4440@76.194.233.139] has joined #lisp 15:35:49 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:43:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:15 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d557540-CM00222d55753d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 15:48:32 somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:53:12 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-221-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:36 ok, so who broke the sb-concurrency-tests on x86-64/darwin/threads (or, more likely, who wrote the new test case exposing the existing breakage)? 15:55:25 prxq [~mommer@f052027203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:41 hi 15:57:45 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:03:07 slyrus: guessing tcr 16:03:47 Intensity [9VHvCTrdFx@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 16:05:22 yup I wrote some pretty thorough stress tests :-) 16:06:00 pix4 [~pixel@dslb-092-073-177-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 Ok people please let the next commit be mine 16:06:49 froydnj, I want to get ironclad to compile with XCVB, but I'm not sure how to handle the readtable wrapper you use... 16:07:00 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:07:08 chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.49.9] has joined #lisp 16:08:03 iirc froydnj wanted to get rid of it 16:08:17 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.49.9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:53 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:11:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: restart emacs] 16:11:34 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:34 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:34 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:12:12 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:26 slyrus: could you paste the failures? 16:12:32 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:13:38 -!- retupmoca` is now known as retupmoca 16:15:26 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:15:40 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:22:48 -!- hicx174_ [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.95.1] 16:25:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:25:44 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:54 tcr: it just hangs near the end of the sb-concurrency tests. the version right before your changes (.17?) works (modulo the self-rebuild problem nikodemus and I were discussing, of course) 16:27:58 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:28:06 rebuilding HEAD so I can paste 16:29:28 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has joined #lisp 16:29:44 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:29:49 iirc I wrote the tests such that they should not hang; though the timeout is rather long. 16:30:42 no, these hang :) but they work on x86/darwin/threads 16:31:28 slyrus: a) modify make-target-contrib.sh to only build sb-concurrency, b) change +timeout+ in contrib/sb-concurrency/tests/test-utils.lisp from 30.0 to 5.0 (that's the timeout we wait for _each_ thread, and two tests create 200 threads, so that would amount to 100minutes...) 16:32:21 smanek [~smanek@adsl-70-232-160-244.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:15 btw, sbcl does not test cleanly on freebsd 16:33:45 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:33:58 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:07 please paste :-) 16:34:22 -!- silas_ [~silas@93-97-226-95.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:34:37 1min... :-] 16:35:26 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has quit [Quit: palter] 16:36:13 positron_ [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 16:36:19 well actually it tests cleanly, in the sense that the tests finish 16:37:09 yeah paste the epilogue, and your exact revision 16:41:29 ... Do we need a guide to interpreting SBCL test suite output? 16:42:14 that might be a good idea. 16:42:30 not that i tried to hard to find one, though 16:42:33 "Expected failures are more-or-less fine. Unexpected successes are joyous occasions. Unhanded exceptions indicate a bare assert that could do with a with-test form wrapped around it..." 16:43:21 "... and there are two (two!) tests in the entire suite that are marked :fails-on :sbcl, everything else is either expected to succeed or target-platform-dependent." 16:43:26 -!- newfurniturey [~joey@74.93.195.210] has quit [Quit: arg] 16:43:36 and "invalid exit status"? 16:43:39 nyef: The epilogue could include a description like that 16:44:03 Invalid exit status indicates a problem with an "impure" test, I think. 16:44:18 Not remembering what, though. 16:44:50 (Impure tests are supposed to exit with a status of 104, signalling a completed run.) 16:44:55 bbeecher [~user@74.72.202.58] has joined #lisp 16:45:13 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:33 ah ok 16:46:31 yeah wrapping bare asserts into with-test would be a very welcomed low-hanging fruit contribution 16:47:00 what does "impure" mean in this context? 16:47:08 Also documenting what it -means- when a test fails is good. 16:47:27 "impure" means "will damage a running environment", for some sense of "damage". 16:47:33 prxq: impure means that the tests have effects on the image 16:47:36 Basically, impure tests are run in their own environment. 16:48:16 ...and leave an unstable/broken image behind 16:49:30 prxq: see http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=commitdiff;h=00616528986d795d1335a0591371e1ac9d958eed#patch3 for what's meant with wrapping bare asserts into with-test 16:50:19 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-16-49.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:50:46 prxq pasted "sbcl 1.0.37 x86, tests on freeBSD 8.0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97275 16:51:09 prxq: Basically, a bare assert kills the test file then and there. A with-test allows the rest of the file to run, and gives a name to the failure at the end. 16:51:27 ok 16:51:47 xcvb passes "make test" again, but not "make pre-release-test" yet. 16:51:53 ... One of these days, I'd like to stomp bug-353 across the board. 16:52:12 prxq: Ok go into threads/timer.lisp, search for the tests indicated in the parentheses in the summary 16:52:33 prxq: and run these individual tests with that build sbcl 16:53:03 prxq: (You cannot evaluate the with-test form, so what I do is place the cursor after the test expression in the with-test form, and press C-x C-e) 16:54:00 tcr: unfortunately i have not much set up on this machine, so I can't really do that at the moment. 16:54:16 rather, yes, I can, wait a moment. 16:54:53 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-221-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:56:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-221-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:01 tcr: I have ./src/code/timer.lisp 16:58:51 prxq: ehm yeah I meant tests/timer.impure.lisp 16:59:22 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@244.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:37 I'm trying to think through this: (defun mappend (fn thing) 16:59:37 (apply #'append (mapcar fn thing))) - why use append at all? won't mapcar just return a list identical to running append over the result? 16:59:37 17:00:00 ack, sorry about the multi-line 17:01:03 bbeecher: mappend is supposed to work like mapcon but to use append rather than nconc, i.e. to be the non-destructive 17:01:23 bbeecher, you realize that this definition of mappend may blow up your allowed number of arguments and/or your stack? 17:01:41 I think he copied it from Norvig, that sloppy bitch :-) 17:01:53 Norvig is not the holy bible 17:02:03 trc: yup, I'm reading through norvig 17:02:50 tcr: what do i have to load to make the tests run? (use-package :test-util) barfs 17:02:54 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:56 and nope, I didn't know he wasn't the holy bible :( 17:03:32 prxq: You don't. Just go to the right form, and just evaluate the test expression that is the expression wrapped in the with-test macro 17:03:57 ah 17:04:16 bbeecher, exercise: write a version of mappend that runs just as fast but doesn't blow your stack frame and/or stack 17:05:07 tcr: should I paste the results? 17:05:13 Fare: will do - thanks for the exercise. 17:05:18 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has left #lisp 17:06:02 prxq annotated #97275 "untitled(with-test (:name (:timer :stress)) ..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97275#1 17:06:35 clhs CALL-ARGUMENTS-LIMIT 17:06:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm 17:07:33 prxq: so try to see what fails. instead of the assert, just look at the queue content, see what the test tries to test, read the relevant sbcl sources 17:07:55 tcr: fair enough. 17:07:58 jao [~jao@39.Red-88-27-171.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:09 tcr: you want me to debug the thing :-) 17:08:49 sure, now you're already committed 17:10:07 clhs mapcon 17:10:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 17:10:41 I thought mappend was supposed to work like mapcan. 17:11:07 Yeah I mixed them up 17:11:20 nconc is evil 17:11:36 having mapcan and not mappend in the standard is weird. 17:11:38 prxq annotated #97275 "tests with sb-threads" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97275#2 17:11:59 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has joined #lisp 17:12:06 what I am most interested in here is to know wether any of the failed tests indicates I'll have an unusable sbcl. 17:12:14 just as a guess 17:12:30 Fare: at least the danger of nconc is clear (once you know about the nffo convention). SORT on the other hand... That's evil. 17:12:31 Timers are, by definition, already unstable. 17:12:31 where do these come from? 17:12:47 *nfoo 17:12:51 tcr: that's 1.0.37 + sb-threads 17:13:25 sources from 1.0.37 release 17:13:38 well, I guess I'll install slime and see what happens 17:13:39 SORT is evil. They should have had SORT and NSORT, or some such. 17:16:13 anyone else here running freebsd? 17:17:20 *Fare* tries to run the pre-release-test again, after hacking the test suite... 17:17:42 at least, xcvb and asdf now share their way to specify the source-registry. 17:17:57 has SBCL compilation speed got significantly worse recently? 17:18:09 cl-launch takes an awful long time at startup to compile itself. 17:18:19 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.213] has joined #lisp 17:18:48 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:57 Yes, I think it got worse 17:19:28 compiling ASDF is a pain, too 17:21:06 how long does cl-launch take? might make sense to profile 17:21:19 King [~ksparks@vc-41-13-96-98.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:22:37 _8david`: http://twib.jp/entry/b5ba347b09d0675a1ebaaf0352b42dc5 17:24:12 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:55 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: weird 17:26:23 _8david`: you're big in Japan, as somebody said 17:26:24 :D 17:26:27 -!- King [~ksparks@vc-41-13-96-98.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [] 17:28:08 tcr: as much a .5 seconds for me with cl-launch -l sbcl -ip '(+ 1 1)' 17:28:59 -!- prxq [~mommer@f052027203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:29:02 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-7-29.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:25 Fare: quick and dirty ir1opt is still on the wishlist (: 17:30:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:32:51 tcr: you merged sb-queue in sb-concurrency, but didn't change the packages, right? 17:34:20 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 17:35:04 It's fully backwards-compatible 17:36:04 "Backwards compatible  If it's not backwards it's not compatible"  Greg Newton 17:36:33 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 17:37:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:38:17 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gdhxjtvfbgcesqlt] has joined #lisp 17:40:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:42:10 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:43:14 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:44:04 -!- palter_ [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter_] 17:44:04 -!- palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has quit [Quit: palter_] 17:45:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:46:44 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:25 slyrus pasted "sb-concurrency test hang" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97278 17:47:32 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 17:48:18 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:48:33 *Fare* fixes a few buglet (missing declare ignore, etc.) in fare-utils, makes CLISP happier, and tries again to make pre-release-test for xcvb... 17:49:17 silas_ [~silas@93-97-226-95.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:49:17 slyrus: ok that means it hangs on the single-producer-single-consumer test because that's the first. 17:49:32 slyrus: And that probably means a lost wakeup in semaphores 17:50:43 woot, looks like I passed with CLISP and it's now validating with CCL instead... 17:51:00 Fare: Congratulations. 17:52:23 and of course, failing for a stupid reason 17:53:03 -!- stokachew [~adam@nat/redhat/x-oqxntpagkhluwwxi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:14 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-gzlhajemdoxvsgru] has joined #lisp 17:53:25 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:51 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-62-101.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:00:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.202.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:07:46 Any opinions on windows lisp implementations? 18:08:15 Yes. We need more SBCL/Win32 users willing to get their hands dirty with the internals. 18:09:07 What does sbcl have problems with on windows, is there a list in the bug tracker? 18:09:29 There are a few things in the tracker... 18:09:39 Not sure how complete the list is, though. 18:09:53 <_8david`> Arelius: until SBCL/win32 gets threads, Clozure CL is a nice alternative 18:10:32 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-187-103.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:34 I like ccl on the mac, though I suspect it's windows implementation isn't quite that nice. 18:11:22 CCL looks pretty solid on win32 too. They did get money for that port, after all. 18:11:29 Ohh neat 18:11:49 Axius [~hi@92.84.11.85] has joined #lisp 18:12:48 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:13:03 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Changing host] 18:13:03 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 18:13:37 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082D171.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:17 pkhuong, but isn't there an issue w/ the win32 port on win64 or some such? 18:14:52 -!- nilboog [~un@unaffiliated/nilboog] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:14:57 *Fare* removes an old version of fare-utils that was confusing ASDF 18:15:06 Is there a problem with SBCL/Win32 on win64? 18:15:10 (but not xcvb, since it didn't have a build.xcvb) 18:15:36 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-21-246.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:25 What does ccl require to build on windows? 18:16:32 ok, test passes with CCL, now for pre-release-test -- and yay for regression testing. 18:16:45 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:57 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082BEF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:18:35 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:18:36 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.226.4] has quit [Quit: freakrobot] 18:20:00 Arelius: do you need to build it yourself? 18:20:16 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-201-110.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:27 Hrm... Seeing some, but not all, of the known issues with SBCL/Win32 in the tracker. 18:21:35 stassats: I suppose not 18:22:05 Arelius: if you really want, you at least need CCL 18:22:27 and a C compiler if you also want to rebuild the kernel, i don't know which one it uses on windows 18:26:10 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:21 stassats: could you make the slime side heed all the thread attributes labels? 18:26:26 for slime-list-threads? 18:26:27 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-98-71.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:26:52 I did that do in past but threw away the changes by accident 18:28:10 i don't understand what "heed" means here 18:28:41 implementations can provide more labels that :id :name :status 18:28:47 s/that/than/ 18:29:22 xcvb is way to complex underneath. I find it sad. 18:30:06 Fare: how so? 18:30:15 tcr: ok, i see that on ACL 18:31:12 Fare: add more abstractions? 18:31:15 stassats: on acl? 18:31:28 tcr: on allegro cl 18:31:44 I don't see thread-attributes implemented in swank-allegro 18:31:54 you should see it on ccl 18:32:22 and, btw, you could probably also add :whostate (process-whostate ...) to both the allegro and the ccl backend for thread-attributes 18:32:38 i didn't look at the code, i just see additional columns 18:33:02 ah I'm not on HEAD 18:35:00 Any idea how asdf is supposed to work on win32? with it's poor implementation of symlink. How do I create an asdf repository? 18:35:21 you can push all directories into central registry 18:35:47 Arelius: or use another search function to traverse all the child directories. 18:35:53 *Fare* releases XCVB .494 at long last! 18:35:56 Arelius: Some lisps give you windows shell links as symlinks, you can customize your system-definition-search-function for the same, you can manually manage your central registry to locate various ASDFs, etc. 18:37:26 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:33 stassats: there should be really some prewritten elisp stuff for doing aligned insertion 18:38:29 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-60-82-254-198-216.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 any Nixos users here? 18:41:16 tcr: there's :align-to property 18:42:32 i'm looking at elp-results, which uses it 18:43:35 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-208-244.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:25 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:44:27 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has joined #lisp 18:44:27 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:27 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 18:46:30 topo [~topo@brln-4dbc2ee1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:31 hi 18:46:33 one question 18:46:45 No. No questions. 18:46:47 im trying to run some lisp code and when i run it it says i need swank 18:46:49 i have a deja vu 18:46:58 whats that 18:47:00 And no SLIME either, apparently. 18:47:21 Swank is a sort-of high-class style, isn't it? 18:47:23 component "swank" not found, required by # 18:47:31 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 18:57:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:31 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:59:04 nyef: Unexpected success: debug.impure.lisp / (THROW NO-SUCH-TAG) 18:59:17 nyef: that no longer fails on Linux/x86 18:59:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gdhxjtvfbgcesqlt] has left #lisp 18:59:43 fe[nl]ix: Yes. And it wasn't hard to make it not fail. 19:00:49 I noticed that not failing on openbsd as well 19:02:11 Yeah, what was happening was the caller-frame information was being discarded, so the backtrace couldn't see it. So I rigged it to preserve some minimal frame information and to constitute a full frame before signalling the error. 19:02:42 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:09 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:16 Once there was a new frame the backtrace could find the old one, and the test started passing. 19:04:30 Nobody told the test suite about the change, so it became an unexpected success. 19:05:13 so that test succeeds now on every platform ? 19:05:24 Theretically, every x86oid. 19:05:37 I'd still expect alpha and mips failures. 19:06:38 when was the last time SBCL was built on any of these? 19:06:59 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:07:33 .28 is the last official binary for ppc, sparc, alpha and mipsel 19:07:49 So, most of a year? 19:08:31 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:08:35 *nyef* has a mips system, but it's a little finicky, and he doesn't know if SBCL will build on it. 19:08:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 19:08:56 hi 19:09:07 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:11 I have slime/emacs and asdf installed. 19:09:21 I want to write programs in lisp to learn lisp. 19:09:46 Where is the recommended place to go to read lisp documentation and learn lisp (I have the common lisp hyperspec bookmarked) 19:09:56 http://gigamonkeys.com/book 19:10:12 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:13 okay I will read that book and write a lot of lisp programs. 19:10:15 minion, tell wolgo about paip 19:10:16 wolgo: look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 19:10:18 Thank you tic 19:11:26 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:50 okay 19:11:51 thanks 19:12:09 Ugh. And I'm running networkmanager on the machine that has the -software- for getting the mips system going, so I can't even do that right now. 19:12:31 -!- smanek [~smanek@adsl-70-232-160-244.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:12:34 hah, networkmanager. 19:13:30 Hey, once I managed to get it to even -start-, it's worked okay on this machine. 19:14:08 Admittedly, I think the entire "desktop" stack is a crock of shit once you leave the X protocol, but... 19:14:17 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:14:34 Yeah, it's very hard (impossible?) to configure through a text connection. 19:14:46 Not what I meant. 19:15:00 Did you mean that it won't work w/o X running? 19:15:06 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Inconceivable!] 19:15:23 I mean Qt and GTK are both obnoxious, almost anything DBus is screwed, hotplug X is still brain-damaged, etc. 19:15:53 And, major shock, I had to edit a text configuration file in order to get my bluetooth mouse working. 19:16:13 All this gui junk, and a critical function still relies on text configuration. WTF? 19:16:18 nyef: have you written a blog about it? If not, I'd be interested in reading that rant in the future :) 19:17:06 And I still don't know if my battery monitor blanking for half a minute on the hour, every hour I'm on battery is from the kernel or userland. 19:17:45 nyef, apple-time? 19:17:53 Hell no. 19:18:00 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 19:18:01 Not running OSX if I can help it. 19:18:21 you probably don't need to edit a config file to get your blotoof rat working though. 19:18:31 Wouldn't on windows, either. 19:18:55 -!- pix4 [~pixel@dslb-092-073-177-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:18:58 well, OS X is more like Linux than Windows. 19:19:01 But once it's working it's working, and I have other stuff to do. 19:19:26 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:09 fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:30 -!- fade is now known as Fade 19:22:24 The amop has collect-superclasses* as a function, does anyone know what the convention is there with that trailing *? 19:23:46 Presumably it's mentioned in the text somewhere? 19:24:01 *nyef* isn't about to drag it off the shelf to look. 19:24:05 nyef: not that I see :S. I'm up to page 25 19:24:22 I don't see it in the footnotes, and its an odd convention that I have not seen before 19:24:27 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:43 nyef: and don't worry I'll live until someone who knows pipes up :) 19:25:41 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.11.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:26:54 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:59 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 19:27:41 -!- adeht [~user@bzq-84-110-155-210.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:28:37 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 19:28:37 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has quit [Quit: palter] 19:29:59 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:32:31 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 19:38:15 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:39:56 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:41:13 tcr: DEPRECATION not DEPRECIATION 19:41:31 Caelum [~rkitover@caelum.cachemiss.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:21 -!- Caelum [~rkitover@caelum.cachemiss.com] has left #lisp 19:43:57 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:44:17 ok 19:44:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: have a nice easter wk end] 19:46:05 wait, are you sure? 19:46:09 Mmm... depreciate is something you do in accounting. deprecate is more general. 19:46:22 *nyef* was surprised too, some months back. 19:46:27 depreciate as in the opposite of appreciate? 19:46:47 de-preciate as in losing value 19:47:11 right. 19:47:16 tic: yes 19:47:44 "sorry, your stock options are deprecated" :-) 19:47:55 although in geek lang, it's similiar to "become obsolete", isn't? 19:48:14 deprecate, yeah. but depreciate? I've never heard it used like that. 19:48:16 xcvb is complex, because it tries to abstract over plenty of things that CL doesn't do right, because it has to be compatible with asdf, because it has to have weird execution modes 19:49:22 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:23 which execution modes ? 19:49:28 Any documentation on handling directories and paths in cl? 19:51:47 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-134-226.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:51:51 Yes, depreciation is the loss of value over time. Deprecation is an explicit statement of worthlessness. 19:52:30 (Deprecation is related to execration.) 19:53:45 help make-makefile asdf-to-xcvb remove-xcvb xcvb-to-asdf non-enforcing-makefile show-source-registry find-module slave-builder make-manifest build load eval repl version 19:54:12 -!- silas_ [~silas@93-97-226-95.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:56:13 with options such as --master for mkmk 19:56:44 What's a good maximum line count for lisp source files? 19:57:42 most-positive-fixnum 19:58:37 my longest files are above 500 lines 19:58:48 Phoodus: Wrong. Unless you only have 13 or so fixnum bits. 19:59:07 beyond 800 lines, my head starts to ache 19:59:23 3000 lines is too long for me, but I'm not sure where the real bound should be. 19:59:51 nyef: oh, are you talking about programming style, or a maximum capability of a reader? 20:00:02 (I do notice that my recent stuff has tended to be unstable if it gets much over 100-150 and the file fissions into multiple files.) 20:00:10 Style. 20:00:22 ah, I'd say around 2kloc :-P 20:00:55 Heh. Riastradh says consider splitting starting at 512 lines, and has an absolute limit at 1024. 20:01:00 depends what the lines look like, too 20:01:18 That's true. 20:01:19 souns reasonable 20:01:19 I recall maxima or axiom generating huge CL files using f2cl on which SBCL choked because all forms were contained in a single toplevel PROGN 20:01:36 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:01:46 then again, my largest files have blocks of comments over a hundred lines long 20:01:47 I'm actually looking at a largeish common lisp system with some files north of 100k bytes, or 3000 lines by wc. 20:01:51 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:16 And I'm considering some radical surgery. 20:02:19 *_3b`* doesn't care about file size unless it starts slowing down emacs/slime 20:02:24 nyef: is it called SBCL ? 20:02:25 would anybody be interested in having the default post-commit hook in Subversion repositories on c-l.net to annotate tickets, if the project has a Trac service associated? 20:02:33 Fare: Yes! 20:03:12 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:20 Krystof [~csr21@host86-180-235-163.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:32 Hello! Is in SBCL something like "copy-shared-libraries" when the image is dumped? 20:03:37 Hello Krystof. 20:03:51 I have problem while running my program with cl-mysql 20:04:07 xcvb .496 passed automated release testing & publishing - yeah 20:04:15 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442741.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:04:17 and along the same lines: automatic website updates for any changes committed to Subversion repositories with a toplevel '/public_html' directory? 20:04:34 now to make sure qres can still be compiled with it... 20:04:36 Fare: does xcvb build upon ASDF2? 20:04:42 ehu: yes 20:04:46 ah. that explains. 20:04:51 thanks. 20:04:56 now it does, at least 20:05:03 evening 20:05:09 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:11 wow, only two messages to asdf-devel since yesterday 20:05:20 evening 20:05:36 Krystof, thank janderson for taking some of the conversation private :) 20:06:01 btw, do you use the feature feature of asdf, or does anyone use it? 20:06:16 me? I haven't used lisp in any advanced way at all in months :-/ 20:06:38 no time 20:06:53 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440291.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:07:00 Krystof: Given that src/compiler/generic/genesis is a build-time tool and not part of the SBCL image, and it needs to be split up into multiple files, which is a better place for it: src/genesis/ or src/cold/genesis/ ? 20:07:26 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.218] has joined #lisp 20:08:04 -!- jao [~jao@39.Red-88-27-171.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:16 src/cold/genesis, I would say 20:08:25 I've been working on a few lisp files with more than 10k lines each, heh. 20:08:51 <_3b`> Fare: (:file "sbcl" :in-order-to ((compile-op (feature :sbcl)))) <- that feature? 20:09:12 luis: on purpose? ;) 20:09:30 Krystof: Why in cold/ rather than not? 20:11:21 bgs100 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:11:25 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:11:59 _3b, yes -- do you use it? 20:12:04 is it working for you? 20:12:30 <_3b`> that line is from sb-cga.asd, works as far as i know 20:12:30 do you have an example use to add to our test suite? 20:12:54 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:56 <_3b`> pretty sure i've seen it other places too 20:13:03 is there a sb-ega? 20:13:26 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.218] has joined #lisp 20:13:37 <_3b`> not that i know of :) 20:14:18 <_3b`> full file is here though: http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga/blob/master/sb-cga.asd 20:14:26 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:01 _3b`: thanks! 20:15:56 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:13 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 <_8david`> Fare: wanted to try the latest tarball, but make says: make[1]: *** No rule to make target `/dev/shm/tmp/fare/xcvb-release/xcvb/driver.lisp', needed by `build/obj/xcvb/driver.fasl'. Stop 20:17:00 <_8david`> Presumably because I don't have a /dev/shm/tmp/fare/ 20:17:07 SBCL question: sbcl supports Unicode; how does it do case-independent comparisons between strings? 20:18:27 _8david`, gah, I'm missing a enough-namestring somewhere! 20:18:34 thanks for the bug report! 20:19:01 <_3b`> Fare: google code search for "(feature " file:\.asd finds a few more examples 20:19:03 in the meantime, you can search-and-replace "/dev/shm/tmp/fare/xcvb-release/" ==> "" 20:19:20 _3b`, thanks! 20:19:50 jao [~jao@122.Red-88-27-170.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:17 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:41 ikki [~ikki@189.139.181.2] has joined #lisp 20:20:46 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.77] has joined #lisp 20:21:01 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 20:25:09 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 another thing: many ANSI tests testing characters seem invalid: they use the full range of characters 0 to 0xFFFF, but the characters in the range 0xD800 to 0xDFFF are considered invalid. 20:27:19 right? 20:27:33 Not portably right. :-P 20:27:36 entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:58 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:30:14 hmm. that doesn't parse very well :-) Do you mean that I'm correct it's incorrect to assume you can use any character value between 0 and char-code-limit? 20:30:55 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 20:31:14 You're correct that you may not presume that every code below char-code-limit is valid, but you're not portably correct about the range of the invalid characters, as the mapping from code-points to characters is not defined in the spec. 20:31:50 true. 20:31:56 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:32:06 which means you can only assume (portably) anything about characters up to 96. 20:32:12 yay 20:32:21 ... How do you figure that? 20:32:24 because char-code-limit may be higher than the actual number of characters supported by the implementation 20:32:45 Where do you get the figure 96? 20:32:47 the characters upto 96 are standard 20:33:05 Umm... The codepoints are still not standardized. 20:33:55 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@whiterabbit.rz.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:58 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@whiterabbit.rz.uni-mannheim.de] has quit [Changing host] 20:33:58 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 20:33:59 What do you do if (char-code #\A) => 200? 20:34:18 kill the implementor ? 20:34:40 oh. wow. 20:34:42 -Besides- that? 20:35:08 then there's really nothing to test here. 20:35:18 (char-code #\A) => #C(3.14159 #(C(0 1))) 20:35:18 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 20:35:19 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 20:35:27 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:27 apart from using their names, right. 20:35:59 Phoodus: Char codes are nonnegative integers. 20:36:08 *Phoodus* refers to "Kill the implementor" 20:36:43 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 20:36:44 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:53 nyef: right; the fact that 'char-code-limit' is lowerbound by 96 20:36:58 confused me 20:37:18 Hrm... And you can't pass char-code-limit to code-char, either... 20:37:35 exactly. 20:37:43 <_3b`> you can on clisp 20:38:01 _3b`: It's a violation of the type specification for code-char. 20:38:01 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:38:04 ehu: I think it's reasonable to assume that implementations use Unicode code points and report any deviation as an error 20:38:23 fe[nl]ix: Does that include the non-unicode-supporting lisps? 20:38:37 which would those be ? 20:39:26 fe[nl]ix: cmucl compiled without unicode? 20:39:29 but u+d800 to u+dfff are not valid code points; they're UTF-16 encoding artifacts 20:39:37 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:50 fe[nl]ix: or maybe scieneer 20:39:52 using sbcl as main platform for development, clisp as initial platform for quick tests makes it easier to find bugs 20:40:01 fe[nl]ix: or Corman 20:40:31 let me rephrase that: "assume that implementations use a proper subset of Unicode" 20:40:32 wow. so this is a mess. 20:40:42 Corman doesn't do unicode - that fault is why I don't use it, as it is otherwise near-perfect from my pov on windows 20:40:49 fe[nl]ix: are there lisps running on EBCDIC? 20:40:54 afaik no 20:41:24 not likely anymore 20:41:26 ehu: you mean common-lisp, of course. 20:42:07 but who knows 20:42:11 How do I get a list of files in a directory? 20:42:15 p_l: I talked to Roger once. his character size is 16-bit, which equals Java's. however, other than that, there are no facilities and you'd need to do full code review 20:42:17 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:42:33 Fare: I meant Corman Lisp. It's another implementation; runs on Windows 20:42:48 oh. 20:42:49 heh. 20:42:50 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:56 CLs running on EBCDIC, yes. 20:43:16 I mean, there are probably lisps that run on EBCDIC - they just don't claim being common-lisp. 20:43:49 If I were trapped in an IBM world, first thing I'd do is write a Lisp compiler in PL/I or 370 assembly. 20:44:18 :-) 20:45:08 <_3b`> ehu: it looks like the tests check for code-char not returning a character, so that seems like it would handle the invalid character ranges 20:46:04 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-114.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:46:10 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:46:20 that said, even on an EBCDIC platform, you can represent characters internally in ASCII/Unicode and use a trivial encoding transform for I/O. 20:46:44 which is what I'd do, these days 20:47:09 A should be 65! 20:47:20 I'd do the same. 20:47:32 however, the question is: should the test assume that. 20:48:15 tic: will you still read it when it's 64? 20:48:49 I'd say it should test it, at least conditionally or sending a warning, or whatever. 20:48:53 stassats, no. then it shall be @. 20:49:30 ok. I'll agree there. 20:49:41 francogrex [~user@91.180.218.232] has joined #lisp 20:50:05 another issue: some tests are checking (upcase (locase x)) == x (in case of a character) 20:50:19 however, in unicode, you can't round-trip all characters 20:51:21 ehu: Yes, but ISTR that CL requires that you -can-. 20:51:32 Guest55482 [~bsdboy@115.117.213.114] has joined #lisp 20:51:42 -!- Guest55482 [~bsdboy@115.117.213.114] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:36 right. so who's at fault? Unicode or CLHS? 20:53:02 I think it's rather dubious to test for someting we now know to be untrue. 20:53:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:53:53 hmm. I'll bring it up on the ansi tests list. 20:54:01 Actually, the fault lies with all the implementors adding unicode support to common lisp, clearly. :-P 20:54:16 right. we should never have done that. 20:54:39 It's like asking which is to blame for an explosion, the matter or the antimatter, when, really, why the hell did you try to mix the two in the first place? 20:55:33 in case of matter and antimatter, I can agree; however with Unicode and CL, I can't: any reasonably self-respecting environment should provide it these days. 20:56:31 too many data sources are using it now. 20:56:38 Next up, surely some characters upcase/downcase in different ways based on their context? 20:56:59 yes. 20:57:03 I 20:57:05 the answer is surely that the standardized operators are written to do what they are specified to do 20:57:24 and that if you want an operator that does something else, you write that operator instead, but you don't call it the same as the standardized name 20:58:00 so, if your common lisp doesn't support (char-upcase (char-downcase x)) == x, then your common lisp is broken 20:58:01 and what do you call the input which doesn't exhibit the specified property of going in pairs? 20:58:16 does sbcl? 20:58:16 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:19 for all unicode characters 20:58:33 or rather for all characters it supports 20:58:42 if your common lisp doesn't have unicode:upcase and unicode:downcase, then it has suboptimal unicode support 20:58:48 Actually, I think you have to define most unicode characters to be non-alphabetic, in the CL-character sense of alphabetic. 20:59:10 I believe that sbcl's implementation of standardized case operators is conforming with the CL spec 20:59:27 maybe it's time to semi-standardize a layer that is clearly disjoint from CL itself? 20:59:37 maybe it's time to write the layer first 20:59:44 and prove that it's useful 20:59:48 You can define them to have an alphabetic constituent type without defining them to be alphabetic per char-upcase et al., right? 21:00:25 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 21:01:44 francogr` [~user@155.111-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:01:56 nyef: turkish-non-dotted-i is alphabetic: it has an upper-case variant 21:02:28 however, that maps to the same character as lower-case-i 21:02:45 -!- francogr` [~user@155.111-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:21 ehu: I'm arguing for a separation between the concepts of alphabetic-for-the-reader, alphabetic-for-CL-character-functions, and alphabetic-for-unicode/whatever-natural-language. 21:03:23 francogr` [~user@155.111-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:04:20 this is partially done by unicode canonicalization, I guess... you can transmit turkish-non-dotted-i separately from lower-case-i? 21:04:21 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.218.232] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:04:30 -!- francogr` is now known as francogrex 21:05:31 nyef: at that point, why do we need a CL that supports more than 8-bit chars as native characters, already? 21:06:08 we could separate "character-for-CL" and "character-for-unicode" 21:06:10 As a substrate for the unicode character manipulation functions, of course. 21:06:21 No, because you still want the reader to take unicode. 21:07:57 you mean to check for unicode. 21:08:09 because it could easily take it w/o interpreting it. 21:08:09 I... don't know? 21:08:27 (and assume someone else did the normalization) 21:08:37 rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:58 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:11:41 why do PROG1 and MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROG1 both exist ? 21:12:16 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:35 what next, you'll tell me that (eq |Fare| |Faré|) ? 21:12:45 because prog1 can be implemented more efficiently? 21:13:14 (where you may notice that they don't have the same normalization) 21:13:29 fe[nl]ix, for historic reasons, too 21:13:30 why then not have PROGN and MULTIPLE-VALUE-PROGN ? 21:13:41 for similar historic reasons 21:13:55 <_3b`> progn can return multiple values more easily than pro1 21:13:57 because you don't need to save values? 21:14:09 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 21:14:29 ah. 21:14:42 sbcl is clhs conformant, but not unicode. 21:14:46 that explains it. 21:14:50 stassats: what do you mean ? 21:15:02 at least not through char-upcase/char-downcase 21:15:32 unicode is not clhs conformant? 21:15:53 Fare: no. it doesn't do upcase/downcase in strict pairs 21:15:56 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:16:15 ie you can't necessarily round-trip characters 21:16:37 fe[nl]ix: i don't think i can explain how multiple values can be implemented more efficiently 21:17:06 what's the lower-case of a  anyway? 21:17:11 Fare: sbcl solves it this way: (char-upcase #\LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_DOTLESS_I) => #\LATIN_SMALL_LETTER_DOTLESS_I 21:17:29 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-197.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:46 Fare: ? 21:17:48 Fare: however, unicode specifies "uppercase is 0049) 21:17:56 " 21:18:06 obviously, sbcl isn't doing that. 21:18:19 and what's the upper case of  ? 21:18:38 can that never occur? 21:18:55 if I put my head in the sand, a lot of things can never occur 21:19:02 :-D 21:19:09 I meant natural-language-wise 21:20:07 Xof: (char-upcase (char-downcase x)) == x ? 21:20:11 (let ((x #\a)) (eq (char-upcase (char-downcase x)) x)) => nil 21:20:11 tic: ß can't occur at the beginning of a word either, still you must know how to upcase it for all-upcase stuff (as is something used for headings in legal documents) 21:20:21 :) 21:20:48 <_3b`> eq doesn't work on characters :p 21:21:02 clhs: eq 21:21:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 21:21:19 <_3b`> (not that it matters) 21:21:26 you need eql 21:21:39 but the bit that I'm considering here: 21:21:50 doh! 21:21:52 <_3b`> or char=, if non-characters should be an error 21:21:58 by not converting latin_small_letter-dotless_i 21:22:03 to uppercase, 21:22:20 you don't really adhere to the unicode spec. 21:22:28 so the example in the spec (eq #\A #\A) isn't required to return T? 21:22:30 so how do |Fare| and |Faré| compare? if they are different symbols, then again, do we really need to care about unicode in the CL implementation? 21:22:32 but I guess what really matters here is what you deem more important 21:22:34 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:43 clhs compliance or unicode compliance. 21:23:10 ehu: Again, have CLHS compliance, and then have a separate set of unicode utilities. 21:23:18 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.10.7] has quit [Quit: netytan] 21:23:38 This is not an either-or question, it's a "how can we have both" question. 21:23:44 <_3b`> slyrus: => true OR => false, as per example 21:23:57 nyef: and call everything that doesn't exhibit the basic character properties a "non-character"? 21:24:38 ehu: No. Character-case in CL is only defined for "alphabetic" characters, of which there is a defined minimal set. 21:25:13 ehu: So cleave to that minimal set for the CL primitives, and do the other thing for the unicode utilities. 21:25:50 Also note that CL appears to permit a different notion of "alphabetic" for the reader accumulating constituents for a token. 21:25:50 Fare: that question is answered with Yes; the fact that I focussed on supporting it is the fact that people from Japan are asking for it. 21:25:56 ehu: I have no idea, but perhaps http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/x3j13-char-proposal.pdf will put some decisions into light 21:26:00 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-8080.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:52 ehu: oh, I mean, there certainly needs be unicode support in a CL library -- the only question is whether it should be done underneath the CL:CHARACTER type, or outside of it. 21:27:12 a bit too late now to change course, but oh well 21:27:39 what was that character library for CL, already? 21:28:16 cl-unicode? 21:29:38 wasn't there something spawned off closure ? 21:30:42 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:35 Fare: that would be babel 21:31:59 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:21 <_8david`> babel and closure are unrelated 21:34:28 there was a library that had its own concept of character, disjoint from cl:character -- is it babel? 21:35:13 Fare: cxml's runes ? 21:36:09 ah, I misread that 21:36:11 the initial code of babel came from clozure not closure 21:37:00 is there specific unicode upcasing support in sbcl? 21:37:04 I'm not seeing any. 21:37:12 but maybe I'm looking wrong? 21:37:31 YES! 21:37:35 runes, that was it. 21:37:52 <_8david`> runes don't add anything of value to the discussion though, they are just a substitute for characters on 8 bit lisps 21:38:12 but that's the point. 21:38:31 Sometimes, it's not useful trying to extend a previous standard to do incompatible things 21:38:54 and then have to fight to have every implementation do it one of the unsatisfactory new ways. 21:38:58 if you decide to go outside of the cl:character definition, wouldn't you loose the option to use basic string operations? 21:38:59 <_8david`> of the three interesting areas (external formats, character properties, fancy collation stuff) the libaries are babel for efs, cl-unicode for per-character stuff, and the last area isn't yet covered in free CL, IIANM 21:39:19 But these things aren't incompatible, they can easily coexist provided that there are different names for the operations. 21:39:49 <_8david`> Fare: so you could do fancy stuff if you went outside of what CL offers, that's true. But runes doesn't really do much stuff that's useful. 21:40:06 david: I heard about IBM's ICU library.. (no experience with that).. does that cover the last area? 21:40:36 my point is that latin_small_letter_dotless_i *is* a character 21:40:48 *and* that unicode defines it to have an uppercase equivalent. 21:41:18 so, when you claim unicode support, one would expect to be able to store it in a string right? 21:41:26 -!- topo [~topo@brln-4dbc2ee1.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 21:41:54 Right, #\latin_small_letter_dotless_i can go in a string. 21:42:18 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:47 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:51 ok. 21:43:17 and any user putting it in a string would expect -per the unicode support and unicode definition- to be able to upcase that string 21:43:33 however, sbcl will skip that character 21:43:45 (at least with string-upcase 21:43:46 ) 21:43:46 adeht: ICU covers pretty much everything, but AFAIK only with 16bit chars 21:44:18 Because, -per the common lisp spec-, the only characters which are required to be "alphabetic" for common lisp are A-Z and a-z. 21:44:31 right. 21:44:45 And there is nothing wrong with having a unicode:string-upcase function that does what would be expected for unicode. 21:45:00 does sbcl have that? 21:45:09 No idea. 21:45:57 rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:15 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 21:46:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:43 *ehu* thinks this is basically a way of saying cl:char-upcase/cl:string-upcase are deprecated 21:46:47 We next get to wrangle over what constitutes "unicode support", ending up with defining different levels of unicode support, or some other way to say that some implementations perform operations that others don't. 21:47:02 In a unicode world? They quite possibly could be. 21:47:29 back to the ansi tests. 21:47:49 if only A-Z and a-z are *required* to be alphabetic, why not just test that subrange? 21:48:17 fe[nl]ix: I see, thanks 21:48:28 (right, because there's also a spec which defines what happens to other characters being the same) 21:48:42 clhs alpha-char-p 21:48:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_alpha_.htm 21:49:08 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:50:02 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755fb1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:37 well, I clicked on to http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_aj.htm 21:52:14 which says that "the impact of implementation defined scripts" is to document the impact on char-upcase/char-downcase 21:53:20 that sounds to me that the behaviour of char-upcase/char-downcase isn't locked down as tight as has been suggested elsewhere in the spec 21:53:47 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:55:19 -!- francogrex [~user@155.111-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:20 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:56:44 and we're back to the fact that char-upcase and char-downcase can only portably be assumed to roundtrip on a-z and A-Z 21:57:02 thanks. this was a very enlightening discussion. 21:57:34 it refreshed and enlarged my understanding of the lisp spec. 21:58:12 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 22:07:35 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.205] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:08:24 I want to (eval ...) some code, and import a packages symbols into the namespace 22:08:41 How would I import the package's symbols? 22:09:32 Arelius: You might want USE-PACKAGE, but please be aware that both USE-PACKAGE and EVAL are considered to be warning signs of poor-quality code. 22:09:41 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:26 nyef: I understand that, it's a hack to run programs in a scripting environment 22:10:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:38 Arelius: oh, I was just about to ask about that 22:15:58 has anyone done something to make scripting a POSIXoid system in lisp a viable alternative to bash? 22:16:12 because, frankly, bash is unbearable as a programming language 22:16:51 mathrick: maybe Fare 22:17:19 there's shebang support by hack, and maybe in sbcl by default now. 22:18:04 http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html 22:18:17 this reader macro is a start, though that's not exactly what I had in min 22:18:17 d 22:18:34 I mean more "writing utility scripts" than "running CL as a day-to-day shell" 22:18:55 that's what I understood you to mean. 22:19:46 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:50 palter_ [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:51 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Shebang-Scripts.html 22:19:54 oh well, time to play with some possible syntaxes 22:20:07 -!- palter_ [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:20:07 -!- palter_ [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:31 So I have a function which is going to be called pretty much throughout the system 22:23:51 chiguire|m [~user@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 22:24:08 but I want it to be a NOP in case we're in cold-init 22:25:25 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.188] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 tcr: the test never timed out. still hung even after changing the timeout. 22:27:10 nyef: it's the address in sbcl.nm that is slightly above the ra in ldb? 22:27:48 (speaking of the trick to map the frames to sbcl's runtime functions) 22:28:43 -!- chiguire|m [~user@190.200.25.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:49 slyrus: That may mean then that the thread hangs within a without-interrupt 22:29:14 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 22:29:54 rares1 [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:00 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 tcr: You might be better generating a new .nm without stripping "private" or "static" symbols. 22:33:27 mathrick: scsh 22:33:46 why'd I want to run a *scheme* shell? 22:34:02 it's Scheme48-based and requires some work to make it compile on 64bit, but is very nice 22:34:19 mathrick: frankly speaking, CL is too heavy IMHO for "scripting" 22:35:01 at least implementations that I know 22:35:19 p_l: why heavy ? 22:35:45 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:56 Do you guys use any special convention for *lexical* global variables? 22:36:01 fe[nl]ix: core size and initialization speed of it (including cold-boot with clean disk cache) 22:36:12 I do: I deny the existence of the concept. 22:36:35 No so-called "lexical globals" -> special convention is to not use them. 22:36:39 heh 22:37:07 fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.203] has joined #lisp 22:37:35 mathrick: and scsh is more into "practical" than "academic" 22:37:47 nyef: Really? All globals should be special? 22:38:06 (Honestly. You have a perfectly-good lisp-2. As soon as you have to pull a lisp-1 game like renaming a variable within a lexical scope you suddenly want lisp-1 semantics instead?) 22:38:34 Wait, you're claiming lisp-2s have some advantage of lisp-1s? 22:38:46 it'd be nice if the bot could pull the appropriate naggum for the question.. 22:38:47 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:39:05 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has joined #lisp 22:39:52 Fade: Wouldn't it, though? How about tackling the project of producing the index, determining if a given question is a suitable candidate, figuring out if it's been "too soon" since the rule last fired, etc? 22:40:25 it would be an interesting project. 22:40:45 fsbot in #emacs does something like that, though without any degree of sophistication. 22:40:50 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:41:01 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-22-41.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 22:42:15 quotemstr: What I'm claiming is that the primary reason for "lexical" globals in CL is to allow what scheme (a lisp-1) does normally when using let over an already-defined variable. But at the same time, when you -don't- want to shadow such a binding in scheme, you merely rename your lexical binding, which is a solution that works in CL when you have a special variable that you want to overlap. 22:42:38 p_l: sbcl isn't much slower than bash with a cold cache 22:42:46 There's -no bloody reason- for global lexicals in CL, short of islisp compatability, and there are known methods to attain it. 22:42:54 nyef: Is cold-init run at each startup? 22:43:26 tcr: No, just the first one. After that there's a different startup function. 22:44:20 I'm deeply confused where *cold-init-complete-p* gets its value on normal startup 22:44:28 It's T? 22:44:39 It's only ever not T when creating a cold-core? 22:45:10 It seems to be only set in !cold-init; so after cold-init we produce some image at some point? 22:45:11 It's not like it gets bound or anything. 22:45:41 Yes, after cold-init we either build PCL or load the fasls and dump a "warm core". 22:45:46 Fnord. 22:46:06 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-gzlhajemdoxvsgru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:08 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1279375297.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:46:13 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-cpuiuhfvbwfvtkof] has joined #lisp 22:46:19 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:26 (That is, once we have PCL loaded we save-lisp-and-die, for which see src/code/save.lisp and pay attention to the local function restart-lisp.) 22:46:39 p_l: that still doesn't make it any less scheme. I'm a CL programmer, scheme is about as useful for me as C++ code would be if I asked for a good AVL implementation in C 22:47:06 spiff [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:47:20 sammcd [~sammcd@74-132-223-43.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:36 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:55 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:06 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:20 I have a very newb question about if statements (or maybe its about expressions). I see how if works: http://mypage.iu.edu/~colallen/lp/node22.html. What if I want if to precess two expressions in the clause? 22:48:45 sammcd: Use progn. 22:48:51 *sammcd* googles progn 22:48:55 sammcd: (if foo (progn (e1) (e2)) (e3) (e4)) 22:48:56 clhs progn 22:48:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm 22:48:57 Consider COND though. 22:49:13 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:49:13 Or depending on the particular circumstances, WHEN and UNLESS. 22:49:14 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:19 -!- spiff is now known as wvdschel 22:49:26 quotemstr: Ya to be honest I got a little confused looking at cond, and though ahh I don't need that. So I'll go re-read that as wel 22:49:32 nyef: could you point me to the place we dump? 22:49:32 languages without WHEN and UNLESS are annoying 22:49:34 Also note that (progn ...) => (let () ...). 22:49:49 hmm okay. 22:49:51 nyef: that's not useful for a newb 22:49:55 nyef: Well, technically speaking, you can express LET in terms of LAMBDA too. 22:50:01 lol 22:50:03 tcr: At the end of make-target-2-load.lisp. 22:50:25 nyef: (progn preserves toplevelness, LET doesn't) 22:50:28 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:28 sammcd: it's true, but not in any way useful for you right now. Just read about COND and PROGN 22:50:45 tcr: Yeah, yeah... But that's toplevelness, not within an IF. 22:50:59 could you guys help me with shared objects? When I run my program I get: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97282 so how can I "put" shared library into my compiled lisp program? 22:51:17 awesome, thanks a lot guys, progn got the job done, but now I'm going to go read more about COND. 22:51:19 nyef: to your defense it was not an equivalence arrow :-) 22:51:29 mrSpec: use CFFI for starters 22:51:39 You guys have been 10x more helpful then most IRC channels I join with newb questions. So thanks a lot. Good to know there is a good community here. 22:51:39 Guthur [~Michael@host81-131-241-198.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:41 tcr: No, more a grammar production. 22:51:54 mathrick: could you tell me something more? 22:52:08 sammcd: heh, that's not something you heard about #lisp, of all places, often :) 22:52:16 -!- cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:22 hehe, guess I jumped in at the right time then. 22:52:23 we're supposed to be smug, grumpy and hostile 22:52:24 mrSpec: You can monkey with the list of shared objects to attempt to reopen when restarting SBCL. 22:52:57 mrSpec: use CFFI instead of SBCL-specific hacks. That's a good start. And then take a look at AT-INIT form in CL-GTK2 22:53:21 mathrick: You know full well we're only smug, grumpy and hostile to the trolls or the people obviously wanting us to do their homework for them. 22:53:38 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53:51 ee I havent used any SBCL hacks... just cl-mysql 22:53:53 Well, I think that the smug and grumpy parts are generally true, although I haven't seen too much hostility. :) 22:54:02 nyef: I said "supposed" 22:54:29 nyef: also we're smug and grumpy to people who don't do their thinking when they could 22:54:39 *mathrick* waves to Xof 22:54:53 lera_zed [~Valera@mm-17-216-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 22:55:14 getting Xof answering you seriously is a good indication you stopped being the most annoying kind of newb, methinks 22:55:37 I know I was happy when I got to that point 22:55:55 mathrick: I'm really wondering how you can tell from the seemingly truncated backtrace that mrSpec isn't using CFFI. 22:56:21 pkhuong: it might be my failing reading comprehension 22:56:48 indeed 22:57:11 mrSpec: anyway, AT-INIT is a good example of what you want to achieve 22:57:28 *mrSpec* is googling 22:57:34 mrSpec: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2, trying to find the manual chapter now 22:58:28 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-208-244.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:58:52 GTK2? 22:59:09 attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.205.78] has joined #lisp 22:59:12 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has joined #lisp 22:59:19 might help with the FP rounding issues in the compiler. 23:00:29 mrSpec: http://github.com/dmitryvk/cl-gtk2/blob/master/glib/glib.lisp#L77 23:01:36 mathrick: thx, so define-foreign-library is what I need? 23:01:59 that's one thing, though honestly cl-mysql should take care of it already 23:02:09 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:33 mrSpec: oh wait, I misread your original question 23:02:38 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 23:02:38 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has quit [Quit: palter] 23:02:45 it's not an image restart, it's not being there at all 23:02:48 ah, pkhuong; and idea what having these 165: SB-PCL::CACHE-MISS-VALUES-INTERNAL 166: SB-PCL::CACHE-MISS-VALUES 167: SB-PCL::INITIAL-DFUN on the stack means? Does that mean that a gf was called an produced a method cache miss? 23:02:53 ATM I'm a bit lost 23:03:18 mrSpec: does it work at all, or is that the first and only thing you get from cl-mysql? 23:03:30 mathrick: I run my program on other PC, which doesnt have this libraries 23:03:36 It works on my PC 23:03:48 uhh, then you obviously need the client libraries 23:03:52 this much should be obvious 23:04:01 install them 23:04:23 yeah, but cant I 'put' them to one file? DO I have to install them by myself? 23:04:41 in practice, you can't 23:04:42 I'd like to send one binary file instedf of 3 files 23:04:53 make an installer :) 23:04:56 -!- lera_zed [~Valera@mm-17-216-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:06 but that's something that should be installed through the package manager, really 23:05:26 but it isnt : / & I'm not root 23:05:29 it's a dependency your binary has, it's not exactly a new thing 23:05:58 mrSpec: then you're out of luck, because if you package up the .so, it might, or might not work 23:05:59 can I change path where my program is looking for this file? from /usr/lib to ./ ? 23:06:15 is that something you need to distribute, or just want to get to work for yourself? 23:06:31 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:37 I have to distribute this :/ 23:07:38 then you've just hit the old problem called "distributing binaries on linux". The answer is: "it's more complex than you expect" 23:07:51 tcr: the discriminating function hasn't been generated yet (first call since a method was defined, likely) 23:07:52 mrSpec: http://autopackage.org/ 23:08:01 this is one thing that might actually help you 23:08:09 but you still need to understand a lot of how things work 23:08:28 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:08:37 mrSpec: if you need to distribute things, *especially* on linux, and have them work on any random computer,it's Damn Hard 23:08:49 ok, but when I run this program, I can change path from ""/usr/lib/libmysqlclient.so" to ./libmysqlclient.so 23:09:01 cant I "change this" earlier? while compiling? 23:09:02 mrSpec: you can, but that's not how you want to distribute things 23:09:06 no 23:09:25 library paths are the property of the execution environment, not the binary 23:09:25 ehh bad 23:09:41 I'm caught in a maze of intrinsically intermingled dependencies.. :-/ 23:09:55 mrSpec: again, if you want to distribute it, a hack won't do 23:10:05 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:16 if you just want to get it to work on your other computer, I can give you a hack that will probably suffice for now 23:10:24 I have to run it on one person's server. only. 23:10:29 but I refuse to give it out unless I'm sure you won't use it for evil 23:10:33 put it to cron and forget 23:10:44 mrSpec: sigh, that's why I asked if you had to distribute it 23:11:03 mrSpec: does that server run the same distro as you? 23:11:28 yes, DEbian but different versions 23:11:48 how different? 23:11:58 if the libc is newer on your PC, you're screwed 23:11:58 tcr: hacking PCL? 23:11:59 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:19 pkhuong: whostate 23:12:20 thanks to the wonders of symbol versioning in glibc 23:12:24 hm server is 64bit, DEbian lenny, I have 32bit 23:12:34 netytan [~netytan@85.211.10.7] has joined #lisp 23:12:34 *mathrick* wishes painful genital rash upon Ulrich Drepper 23:12:46 pkhuong: used FORMAT to generate a nice whostate, but use that in get-mutex etc. 23:12:47 mrSpec: but also lenny? 23:12:55 yes 23:13:08 mrSpec: does the server have libcompat-32 installed? 23:13:15 or whatever was the name of that thing 23:13:39 wait, I'll try locate this file 23:13:48 pkhuong: format nil uses with-output-to-string which calls CLOSE on the string-stream, CLOSE is a GF, on first method call we get that cache miss, and on cache fill we again call GET-MUTEX on some PCL lock 23:14:03 mrSpec: well, copy /usr/lib/libmysqlclient.so to the server 23:14:04 ssh in 23:14:15 doesn't matter where you put it on the server 23:14:29 go to that directory, and run ldd libmysqlclient.so 23:14:37 put the output in a pastebin and link 23:14:39 ok sec 23:14:43 I'm happy that my sbcl-fu grew so much that I could actually made sense of the error though :-) 23:14:59 tcr: that's always a good feeling 23:15:03 (sorry for my grammar but I've hacked all day and lack sleep) 23:18:39 tcr: yuck. Write to string and all? 23:18:40 mathrick: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97292 23:19:27 pkhuong: concatenate :-) 23:19:31 mrSpec: okay, seems you might be in luck 23:19:39 :D 23:20:05 mrSpec: run the binary as LD_LIRBARY_PATH=. ./binary 23:20:26 after you put libmysqlclient.so in the same dir 23:22:47 hah know It wants other library, sec I'll copy it too 23:25:45 mathrick: at least put that after the current value. 23:26:15 pkhuong: usually the current value is "" 23:26:46 mrSpec: what other library? 23:26:58 it shouldn't, ldd didn't show any unresolved imports 23:27:34 mathrick: but my program showed :/ clsql_mysql.so, I've copied it 23:28:02 but "Error opening shared object "/usr/lib/clsql/clsql_mysql.so" 23:28:34 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:29:18 mrSpec: oh, your binary. Then yes 23:29:22 mathrick: ldd: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97292#1 23:30:09 mrSpec: ln -s libmysqlclient.so libmysqlclient.so.15 23:31:14 mathrick: done 23:31:22 but still the same :S 23:31:43 mrSpec: LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. ldd clsql_mysql.so 23:31:55 does it still say (not found)? 23:32:28 no... 23:32:40 and the binary doesn't work? 23:32:58 mathrick: http://paste.lisp.org/display/97292#2 23:33:14 does the binary work? 23:33:23 no :/ 23:33:42 Error opening shared object "/usr/lib/clsql/clsql_mysql.so": /usr/lib/clsql/clsql_mysql.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory. 23:34:03 oh, that's because it hardcodes the library path 23:34:13 sec 23:34:27 oki :) 23:36:16 mrSpec: try doing (push *default-pathname-defaults* cffi:*FOREIGN-LIBRARY-DIRECTORIES*) before you dump the binary 23:36:41 err 23:36:42 ok thanks 23:36:51 no, that's not what it should say 23:36:59 ah ;/ 23:37:32 umm, what's the pathname that means "current directory"? 23:37:47 there's no such 23:38:01 thought as much 23:38:32 mrSpec: but (push #P"./" cffi:*FOREIGN-LIBRARY-DIRECTORIES*) should work in SBCL 23:38:46 ok, I'll try this 23:38:52 there might be a default directory which will be merged by default 23:38:53 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 23:39:37 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:40:03 but unfortunately ATM I am not able to resend this file :/ It will take me ~40min 23:40:57 mathrick: I'll start upload, and will ask you tomorrow if something is still wrong, can I? :) 23:41:24 you can always try 23:41:43 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:48 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:48 Thanks 23:41:56 stassats: as long as we stay within the confines of SBCL, #P"./" works 23:42:12 I wouldn't want to throw my pathnames at anything without extensive testing anyway 23:42:54 ps3sux [~ps3sux@c-66-235-32-163.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:58 (sb-posix:getcwd) works as well 23:45:46 newfurniturey [~joey@74.93.195.210] has joined #lisp 23:48:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:22 good night! 23:52:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:55:32 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-25-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:57:47 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:59:35 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp