00:00:00 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 00:00:32 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:00:48 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 00:03:13 frasbo [~user@c-0af8e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:03:45 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:05:34 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:56 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:06:58 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:36 -!- frasbo [~user@c-0af8e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:58 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.146.60.7.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:16:53 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:13 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:17:45 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 00:19:29 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:58 TeMPOraL [~temporal@178.182.71.79.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:26:36 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:32:18 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:33:14 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:33:55 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:19 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 00:40:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-5-60.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:38 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-18-241.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:44:02 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:45:56 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:47:04 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.5] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 00:47:15 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661c1e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 00:48:20 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:49:06 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-105.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:59:49 -!- penny [~penny@g227169079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:25 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:03:48 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:03:51 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:07:11 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-16.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:08:07 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:09:43 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 01:10:11 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:08 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:12:50 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 01:12:54 eldragon_ [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 01:13:02 maden_ [~maden@dsl-157-111.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 01:14:29 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C45A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:14:57 -!- eldragon_ [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:22 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:15:22 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 01:15:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:20:40 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 01:20:52 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 01:28:34 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:29:44 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 01:30:32 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:47 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-221.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:36:19 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.174.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:39:15 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:09 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-147-13.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:06 -!- kzar [~kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:49:06 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:48 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:50:27 -!- maden_ [~maden@dsl-157-111.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:59:27 -!- edi_99 [~tadej@BSN-143-113-231.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:00:27 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:02:07 konr [~konrad@187.106.50.112] has joined #lisp 02:02:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:03:24 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f662f1b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 02:03:27 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has joined #lisp 02:04:02 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-spgdqbwtitwbqcal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04:06 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ukzvzgknfnsuodpa] has joined #lisp 02:04:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:56 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:36 -!- holycow [~new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:29 -!- etate [~meta@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:10:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@adsl-89-132-54-34.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:11:38 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.106.60] has joined #lisp 02:14:33 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:11 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:20 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:21:15 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:24:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.106.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zbifjcprpgyrmcny] has joined #lisp 02:26:55 bombel [~fmagno@a213-22-145-173.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 02:26:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:30:38 which one ussually works in more places.. elt or nth? 02:30:57 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:18 I forget, but one is lists-only and the other is all sequences. 02:31:22 or maybe which one also always works where the other may not 02:31:32 elt works with vectors 02:31:41 nth's for list, elt for sequences 02:31:42 i installed lispbuilder-sdl with clbuild. what must i do to be able to require it in slime? 02:31:47 Of course, aref also works with vectors... 02:32:09 axion: Provided that you started your "inferior" lisp via clbuild, nothing. 02:32:11 elt works with sequences 02:32:14 don't forget that sequences are more than just lists and vectors 02:32:24 nyef: ah i dont think i did 02:32:34 nth only with lists 02:32:44 that would be a good staart to google :) 02:32:56 *adu* <3 Google 02:33:06 stassats`: Theoretically, yes, but does anyone actually -use- Xof's general sequence stuff? 02:33:36 my brain makes want to think all lists are sequences 02:34:00 dmiles_afk: Which is patently untrue: Only proper lists are sequences. 02:34:10 not all conses are lists though 02:34:18 And not all lists are conses. 02:34:46 Actually, all conses are lists, just not necessarily proper lists. 02:35:12 and non-cons list is NIL 02:35:30 What extension should a Lisp file have? 02:35:39 me needs to test (elt 2 '(1 2 3 4 5 . 6)) 02:35:41 And NIL is a symbol, therefore there is at least one symbol which is a list. 02:35:50 bombel: .lisp 02:35:56 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:35:57 bombel: Typically, .lisp, although .cl and .l have both been seen. 02:36:03 I've seen .cl and .lsp 02:36:06 ... And .lis on occasion... 02:36:12 nyef, isn't nil eq () ? 02:36:24 Thank you 02:36:33 (elt '(1 2 3 4 5 . 6) 2) => 3 good 02:36:35 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:36:44 TeMPOraL: Yes, but () is a symbol in the common-lisp package with a name of "NIL". 02:36:54 right.. 02:36:56 never mind that; I'd better go to sleep... 02:37:26 nyef: '()' is actually a symbol? 02:37:29 TeMPOraL: What actually happens is that the reader sees the start of a list, then sees the end of the list, and says "hey, it's not a dotted list, so it has to end in NIL... and it doesn't have any elements, so it must -be- NIL." 02:37:50 sykopomp: Well, technically, it's a pair of characters, but c'mon... 02:37:53 ok thank you all i see .. nth can be defined as elt with a typep LIST 02:38:11 I get it - () must be something, or we couldn't refer to the "empty list" as to an 'object' 02:38:11 dmiles_afk: wait until some implementation refuses to work on this 02:38:12 typep LIST sanity check .. to still pass ANSI 02:38:14 dmiles_afk: Modulo argument order, surely? 02:38:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 02:38:27 nyef: I guess it's part of the confusion of mixing 'nil the symbol, () the empty list, and nil the null value :\ 02:38:56 sykopomp: And nil the type, and nil the false value, and... 02:39:02 ;_; 02:39:25 eclpt (elt 6 ()) has to error but not (nth 6 ()) 02:39:29 oops 02:39:33 argument order 02:39:41 sykopomp: And don't forget, arrays specialized to an element-type NIL are strings! 02:39:50 (dmiles_afk): AFAIR elt fails if out of range 02:39:59 nyef: I didn't know that. 02:40:13 sykopomp: Well, technically, they're only strings if they're vectors. 02:40:13 why aren't strings specialized to CHARACTER? 02:40:22 They are, but NIL is a subtype of character. 02:40:33 omg 02:40:36 how did that happen? 02:40:38 tell me I'm dreaming this 02:40:42 it's not real.... 02:41:05 Someone got a bit too clever when defining the spec. 02:41:14 sounds like it 02:41:18 It's an interaction of about three different places. 02:41:26 One of which was u-a-e-t. 02:41:28 clhs u-a-e-t 02:41:28 UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm 02:42:27 and it was discovered only in 200xs? 02:42:34 That one supplies some behavioral limits. Then somewhere else the type system is defined to be a lattice, with NIL as the bottom type. 02:42:36 Yeah. 02:42:38 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:47 Or it was rediscovered then. 02:44:13 Ah, right, if you upgrade BIT, it has to be BIT, if you upgrade BASE-CHAR or CHARACTER, it has to be BASE-CHAR or CHARACTER, respectively. 02:44:49 NIL is a subtype of both BIT and BASE-CHAR, thus it must either upgrade to -both-, which it can't, or be a specialized array itself. 02:45:02 Err... specialized array type. 02:46:11 Ah, 15.1.2.1 specifies the lattice view of types. 02:46:14 it sounds like level 10 wizardy... maybe one day I'll understand what you are talking about right now :) 02:46:19 *TeMPOraL* is going to get some sleep 02:46:21 'night! 02:46:48 TeMPOraL: Sleep well. 02:47:02 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@178.182.71.79.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: () () () () () ()... ;) .•«UPP»•.] 02:48:27 So, 15.1.2.1 specifies the lattice view, 15.1.2.2 says that vectors whose elements are restricted to character or a subtype of character are strings. 02:48:33 NIL is a subtype of CHARACTER. 02:50:33 there can be also (ARRAY NIL NIL) 02:50:38 what would one do with it? 02:51:28 Well, it has identity. 02:51:39 And you can request its dimensions. 02:52:17 which would be NIL 02:52:31 You can't access any of its elements for reading, as they're not initialized, you can't access any of its elements for writing, as you can't produce a value of type NIL... 02:52:34 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:52:42 That's about it, really. 02:52:50 It does have an element, though. 02:53:43 ERROR has type NIL? 02:53:53 I guess that makes its array-total-size 1? 02:54:12 How so? 02:55:17 it never returns 02:55:19 Ah, it's a (function (t &rest t) nil)? 02:55:48 Yeah, it -doesn't return-. You can't really assign its return value anywhere, even if it -is- of type nil, can you? 02:57:34 sbcl uses #:MU for (array nil nil) 02:58:08 Clearly, SBCL retains its buddha-nature. 02:58:59 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:59:02 I hope so. 03:03:10 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:06:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zbifjcprpgyrmcny] has left #lisp 03:10:26 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: saikat] 03:16:08 buddha? 03:16:22 i wish to know the buddha-nature of SBCL 03:17:12 write a program consisting of one parenthesis 03:17:38 *nyef* applauds stassats`'s rejoinder... with one hand. 03:19:21 stassats`: uh 03:19:42 stassats`: that would have to involve editing the readtable wouldn't it? 03:20:58 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:21:16 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 03:21:46 *nyef* is uncertain if adu is serious or not. 03:22:08 -!- bombel [~fmagno@a213-22-145-173.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:15 nyef: yes, i am serious 03:22:52 nyef: i'm a lisp noob, but not too much of a noob, because I know that the standard readtable _exists_ 03:23:10 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:15 Right, right, but the joke was the reference to the koan, "what is the sound of one hand clapping". 03:23:38 maybe we should have a system of badges to award lispers for varying levels of achievement. 03:23:45 i don't think that's funny, because I can actually make a clapping sound with one hand 03:23:53 Where as my original comment was on the question of "does a dog have the buddha-nature?". 03:23:54 "For Meritorious use of PROGV" 03:23:59 what achievements? 03:24:16 They could range from "Figured out that + is a function, and it goes in the car of an expression" to "wrote an optimizing common lisp compiler in common lisp" 03:24:44 or "clever use of ~{~} in format" 03:24:50 s/format/FORMAT/ 03:24:52 Or even "documented an optimizing common lisp compiler in common lisp", which seems to be bloody rare. 03:25:26 we could have a whole class of 'documentation' badges which can carry the highest prize. 03:25:30 what about "write several parsers from funky M-exprs to S-exprs so no one else has to" 03:26:02 "wrote a docstring" should probably warrant about as much merit as "wrote a GC for Lisp in Lisp" :\ 03:26:05 nyef: documented in common lisp? 03:26:08 documentation is the king of all programming endevours 03:26:18 stassats`: No, the compiler in common lisp. 03:26:34 adu: anything having to do with m-expressions for any purpose other than to poke fun at them should probably fall under the "ridicule" category. 03:26:45 right along "thought McCarthy was Dijkstra" 03:26:46 :| 03:27:04 sykopomp: Or "thought Dijkstra was McCarthy"? 03:27:23 And just hope you don't mix up Knuth and Moore (the FORTH guy). 03:28:16 perhaps a "gavino award for excellence"? 03:31:02 *snrk* 03:32:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:35:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:36:01 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:45:10 clim process-next-event 03:45:11 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/8-1.html#_303 03:53:17 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:54:29 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:55:03 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:56:33 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 03:57:22 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:10:40 I need somebody to convince me not to spend $800 on a Symbolics 3620. 04:10:59 get it 04:11:09 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 04:11:31 dralston: Buy a netbook, load linux and SBCL and emacs. It'll be faster, have better graphics, and be better supported. 04:11:38 And it'll only be $300. 04:12:04 If you -do- buy the 3620, though, take ROM and disk dumps in case someone wants to emulate it. 04:12:26 (Said someone won't be me, but could have been a decade ago.) 04:12:57 I'm weak for old technology. 04:13:46 And, that is a good idea, provided I'm unable to find someone to talk me out of it. 04:14:06 http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt Straight from Symbolics, too. 04:14:12 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.161.217.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:17:58 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-80-89.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:32:22 dralston: Are you weak enough to have an answer for this, which got nil on ##history?: Anybody know of an online history of command-line user interfaces (CLUIs)? I'm thinking way before Unix; I remember first seeing how AOS allowed moving the cursor back into a typed line and inserting letters (which at the bit rates back then was so slow you could see the line be redisplayed) and thinking "wow". Should cover IBM's TSO, Twenex, etc. 04:32:53 Hmmm... 04:33:42 I don't know if _In The Beginning Was The Command Line_ had a very extensive history. 04:34:52 To be honest, it probably wouldn't exist as a history of CLIs, as the command-line, for decades, was the only interface. Your best bet is really a general OS history, though I dought it would be CLI specific. 04:34:57 dralston: I don't recall one. I know about it, though, but I'm looking specifically for "FOOGLIX first implemented using ^B to move backwards nondestructively", not a paean to the concept. 04:35:39 Ohh. I'm afraid I've never come across anything of that sort. 04:36:24 Apologies. 04:39:32 dralston: You are forgiven. Nobody else knows either. A repository of users' manuals for ancient OSes would be helpful. (I remember AOS (a Data General minicomputer OS) seeming quite innovative to me at the time. Any clues where I could find even a list of ancient OSes? (Wikipedia has a List of OSes article, but their alphabetized, not chronological, and oriented toward present day; WP might not consider FOOGLIX to be "notable".) Once 04:40:02 ) 04:40:08 loop is a beast, eh. you could write enormously convoluted programs with it ;) 04:40:09 The tunes wiki might have something of use, as might bitsavers. 04:40:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_operating_systems ? 04:40:53 dralston: ooooooooh, I didn't think of searching for "timeline". Duh. 04:40:59 Hahaha :P enjoy. 04:41:25 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 bytecolor: agreed. It's basically a mini-language, which I find slightly annoying. I wish it were "lispy-er". 04:42:03 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:42:27 dralston: nod, I've been forcing myself to use it (to learn it). It _is_ a pretty amazing tool though 04:43:20 Yeah. Were I ever to do any real loop-work, I'd probably just use the "Iterate" replacement. :/ 04:44:03 dralston: I think I saw that somewhere, basically loop with (), eh? 04:44:36 well, the one I saw barrowed a lot from loop and added parenthesis 04:44:53 akm [~Alan@c-67-180-16-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:01 I suppose so. Yet, at least it's a *little* more consistent. (And, Iterate probably is what you're thinking about.) 04:51:29 Is loop fully capable of list comprehension? It seems so, but I'm relying on my memory of Python lisp comprehension, not something like Haskell's. 04:52:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension#Common_Lisp 04:53:13 Short answer: sort of. 04:55:20 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:55:27 something as simple as (loop repeat 10 collecting (random 1.0)) is pretty sort and sweet 04:57:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:12:27 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:15:04 Goodnight, everyone. 05:15:22 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Braving the wild blue yonder.] 05:15:39 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:47 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-156-239-195.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 05:24:25 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:02 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:37:19 fhc [~fhc@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:53 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:40:59 -!- fhc [~fhc@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:53 fhc [~fhc@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:09 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 05:45:20 -!- fhc [~fhc@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:46:38 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-89.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:55:16 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:55:37 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:27 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:00:43 c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:50 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 06:09:32 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:15:29 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:43 c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:26 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:23:01 maus [~maus@123.20.9.131] has joined #lisp 06:23:10 Anarch: have you seen bitkeepers.org? 06:23:26 *gigamonkey* chimes in several hours later 06:23:32 Good afternoon! 06:24:47 nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:38 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:26:13 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:59 hello maus 06:27:04 [and good morning everyone] 06:27:45 good night 06:29:36 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:30:27 greetings, beach. 06:30:56 beach: have you ever looked at this algorithms book? http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~vazirani/algorithms.html 06:31:06 Hello beach! :) 06:31:22 gigamonkey: Nope. Should I? 06:31:27 I do recall correctly, don't I, that you were once bemoaning the lack of a good algorithms book. 06:31:49 If so, I was wondering if you had an opinion about this one. I found the chapter on dynamic programming pretty good. 06:31:55 But I may be easily pleased. 06:32:25 It occured to me that a multi-book book review of the top-few algorithms books might be a good piece for Code Quarterly, should anyone want to write such a thing. 06:32:32 gigamonkey: Yes, because they rarely talk about data structures, and when they do, they get it all wrong, because they know nothing about abstract data types, preserving object identity, the substitution principle, etc. 06:34:33 Well, I ordered a copy of that one; I'll let you know how they do on those fronts. 06:34:52 the okasaki is still a classic 06:35:23 Fare: the FP one? 06:35:54 yup 06:36:18 Yeah. Though that's a bit specialized, right? 06:36:39 *gigamonkey* has it. Will bang head against it more thoroughly some day. 06:36:57 beach: How are you doing? 06:37:02 gigamonkey: What I have read so far looks pretty good, as books on algorithms go. 06:37:13 beach: you have classes today? 06:37:15 maus: Very busy, but OK. What about yourself. 06:37:23 maus: Nope. No classes on Saturadays. 06:37:40 beach: do you give algorithms class? 06:37:47 Fare: I do yes. 06:38:04 Fare: For the third-year undergraduates. 06:38:21 can you give as end-of-class project the assignment to contribute one classic algorithm to fare-utils' pure or stateful family of algorithms? 06:38:53 Fare: I talk a lot about abstract data types, and spend most of the course on a single one: editable sequence. 06:39:09 Fare: what is this family? 06:39:39 interface-passing style 06:39:56 for the pure at least 06:40:18 I'm afraid I can't give them such an assignment. 06:40:54 :( 06:41:03 why not? 06:41:15 parametric polymorphism is off-bound? 06:41:24 Fare: The student unions would protest that such an assignment is not part of the program. 06:41:53 Fare: Pretty much off-topic, yes. 06:42:13 meh 06:42:31 beach: me too, I'm a little bit busy.. I promised my friend to make her a music CD.. and now i'm doing :).. choosing a picture for the cover :) 06:42:53 maus: You play yourself? 06:43:04 beach: so working on integers is all you do? or passing functions in the parameter signature one by one? 06:43:32 Fare: Why do you say that? 06:43:35 beach:no, I can't sing well :) 06:44:42 how do you introduce an algorithm that works on an arbitrary ordered set as parameter? 06:45:04 or an arbitrary commutative ring? 06:45:40 Fare: That's not part of the topic. As I said, we hare working on abstract data types. 06:48:15 not that abstract, if there can't be functions associated to them to abstract away properties 06:48:20 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 06:49:32 Fare: I suspect that you are trying to convince me that what you want me to do is on-topic, and so that I will either accept giving the students this assignment, or accept that my course is not handling the topic correctly. 06:50:18 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:50:22 or do you define "ADT" as "solution to simple set of first-order recursive equations of the form Ti = disjunction (constructor ij Tijk, k maybe the course is handling the topic correctly, just remaining elementary because you don't have time to go far enough 06:51:27 and/or the students are too junior 06:52:15 Fare: The topic is more pragmatic that that. How do you define an imperative interface so that the implementation is hidden, and how do you implement an interface when there is no optimal solution, and you have to make compromises, not knowing who your future clients are. 06:52:51 -!- rme [rme@clozure-C8F6B6BB.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:52:52 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:53:32 minion: floating-point 06:53:33 floating-point: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 http://focus.hut.fi/docs/WorkShop/common/ug/goldberg1.doc.html 06:53:55 interface-passing style helps hide the implementation, imperative or pure. 06:54:04 Hmmm. That third link seems dead. 06:54:16 first-class interfaces help abstract away design choices 06:54:28 (or second-class interfaces, for that matter) 06:54:55 Hurrah for procedural abstraction. 06:55:23 (but CL doesn't have second-class interfaces, does it?) 06:55:29 Zhivago, hi! 06:55:36 Zhivago, what do you do these days? 06:55:57 The usual, software engineering. 06:56:16 gigamonkey: I like the book so far. But it has nothing about data structures in it (not that it claims to). 06:56:33 benny [~benny@i577A79C8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:44 beach: well, guess there's still room for you to write your book then. 06:56:52 Indeed! 06:57:05 Maybe by the time you're ready, Gigamonkeys Inc. will have expanded beyond Code Quarterly and I can publish it for you. ;-) 06:57:21 Hey, that would be great! 06:57:41 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:57:41 Or if you wanted to publish it in serial in CQ, we could do that too. 06:57:48 I recently took upon myself to tackle the hot upgrade problem at ITA, and reformulated it as "changing the floor under machine while it's still running", and realized I liked it for the same reason as TUNES. 06:58:08 *Fare* read CQ as GQ and thought "whoa" 06:58:28 No, it makes much more sense in Congressional Quarterly. ;-) 06:58:39 gigamonkey: I'll think about it, but any extra activity is out of the question before the month of August. 06:58:43 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:00:31 beach: that's fine. We're probably going to get off to a bit of a slow start as the length and quality of output I want is hard to come by and I want to get the pipeline reasonably full before we start publishing. 07:00:44 Plus I have a baby on the way in June which will throw a nice monkeywrench in things for a while. 07:02:21 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:02:21 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 07:02:36 if "things" are a blast furnace -- that's extra raw material! 07:02:37 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-198-179.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:45 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-198-179.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:50 NO 07:03:18 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:03:50 I don't suppose anyone here knows where the David Goldberg who wrote the floating point paper is these days? 07:04:10 Did you try Google? 07:04:55 Yes, but some other David Goldberg with more of an eye to self-promotion is poisoning my searches, it seems. 07:05:12 David Goldberg the cryptographer? 07:06:12 This guy: http://www.illigal.uiuc.edu/web/deg/vita 07:06:45 What does this even mean: "Authored or supervised over 58 computer codes & platforms." ? 07:07:24 complete programs 07:07:49 codes is a scientific/numeric way of saying a program or library, basically 07:07:58 Ah, here he is I think: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-goldberg/6/508/3B2 07:08:31 Alexandr [~Alexandr@unaffiliated/alexandr] has joined #lisp 07:09:23 Okay, bedtime for me. Goodnight, folks. 07:11:24 'night gigamonkey 07:12:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:13:51 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:17:30 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:44 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.203] has joined #lisp 07:23:27 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:49 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:18 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-110-24.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:25:42 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-106-196.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:25:45 -!- beach` is now known as beach 07:26:18 etate [~meta@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:24 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:28:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:28:49 good morning 07:28:55 hello nikodemus 07:28:56 nyef: still awake? 07:35:21 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:37:02 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:39:06 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:39:07 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 07:45:27 unknown LOOP keyword: *INDEX* ; is this telling me the loop syntax is wrong or what? 07:46:20 pragma_ [~pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:49 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest12267 07:47:00 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:23 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 07:53:02 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:53:16 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:54:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755908.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:00 almost certainly yes 07:55:20 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:55:20 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 07:56:09 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:56:22 well I know the _text_ of the program is correct, but it's in a recurring macro, so I think the expansion is getting jumbled somewhere, that's why I wasn't sure ;) 07:57:50 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-102-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:01:12 -!- aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aquateen] 08:12:57 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-147-13.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 08:13:43 morning people 08:14:42 *cmm* isn 08:14:45 't 08:15:04 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:15:27 what would be a good way to tell how well a list of int is sorted? maybe count the number of consecutive pairs in order? 08:16:01 s/in order/that are in order/ 08:16:12 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 08:16:44 reduce comes to mind to implement that 08:20:06 na, maybe compare a sorted copy, counting the number of correct positions 08:20:20 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:24:31 sort, and count the number of operations needed 08:24:37 fhc [~fhc@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:38 <_3b> bytecolor: edit distance from sorted list? number of swaps needed to sort it? average or total distance between each entry and correct position? 08:24:59 -!- fhc [~fhc@c-71-231-182-52.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:25:10 nod, nod, nod, and ... nod ;) 08:25:11 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 08:25:27 *_3b* wonders if a reverse sorted list is more or less sorted than a randomized list 08:26:27 rares [~rares@174-26-125-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:00 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-60-82-254-216-20.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:24 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:40:29 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 08:40:40 -!- koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:44:04 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #lisp 08:58:48 -!- Guest12267 [~pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:58:49 Guest12267 [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 08:58:50 -!- Guest12267 is now known as pragma_ 09:03:15 TR2N [email@89.180.157.14] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:39 jmbr [~jmbr@81.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:12:37 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:15:29 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-40-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:19:37 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:22:57 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-164-20.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:53 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:25:39 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 09:31:06 -!- maus [~maus@123.20.9.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:35:59 -!- akm [~Alan@c-67-180-16-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:36:12 bour1992 [~user@ppp091138240146.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp 09:37:23 -!- bour1992 [~user@ppp091138240146.dsl.hol.gr] has left #lisp 09:37:32 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 09:46:13 wvdschel [~wim@d5153E2B8.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:51:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 09:54:37 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:57:19 milanj [~milan@93.87.193.172] has joined #lisp 09:57:22 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:59:35 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CB37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:52 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:02 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 10:09:08 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:20:51 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:21:17 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:31 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:24:05 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:25:49 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:32:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:35:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:36:53 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:43 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:45:27 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:47 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-164-20.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:39 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:51:17 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-164-20.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:19 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d5153E2B8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:24 wvdschel [~wim@d5153E2B8.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:00:38 attila_lendvai [~ati@adsl-89-132-54-34.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:06:11 nh_ [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:08:17 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:13 -!- nh_ [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:00 nikodemus, i'll have lunch, after that we could hunt down that bug... 11:16:22 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-125-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:20:42 TeMPOraL [~temporal@178.182.72.55.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:22:05 hi 11:22:41 hello TeMPOraL 11:22:59 a simple question about nconc 11:23:07 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:23:10 (nconc bar '(1 2 3)) 11:23:22 it returns an bar appended with 1 2 3 11:23:25 but it changes bar or not? 11:23:37 clhs nconc 11:23:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm 11:23:54 It modifies the last cons cell of the list that is the value of bar. 11:23:54 I'm reading that right now ;) 11:24:29 TeMPOraL: But nconc is a function, so it is unable to change the value of the variable bar. 11:25:17 TeMPOraL: look at: (nconc list-1 list-2) == (progn (rplacd (last list-1) list-2) list-1) 11:25:32 clhs rplacd 11:25:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rplaca.htm 11:25:35 rplacd is for changing destructively changing CDR 11:25:36 TeMPOraL: So if bar is NIL, its value is not modified. 11:25:53 (beach): ok, that's what I needed 11:25:56 but if it wasn't nil 11:25:57 so, progn destructively changes the last cdr of the first list to point to the second list 11:25:59 it would change? 11:26:02 s/progn/nconc/ 11:26:32 I mean - I used nconc to append stuff to a class slot that starts with default () 11:26:49 G'morning all. 11:26:54 you have to set the result of nconc 11:26:56 TeMPOraL: The value of bar is still the same object, but the CDR of the last cell of the list has been modified. 11:26:59 and it didn't worked until I changed it to (setf slot-name (append slot-name 'stuff)) 11:27:08 nikodemus: You pinged? 11:27:10 (beach): right, and () doesn't have CDR? 11:27:25 () is not a CONS 11:27:34 TeMPOraL: Waht stassats` said. 11:27:34 ok 11:27:35 so it doesn't have neither CAR, nor CDR 11:27:59 I guess it's what nyef said few hours ago (when I was half-asleep) about () being a symbol... 11:28:13 thanks :) 11:28:17 TeMPOraL: The right thing to do is (setf mumble (nconc mumble ...)) 11:28:28 in CL, the cdr of () is (). 11:28:37 () may not have CAR or CDR, but (car ()) => (), and (cdr ()) => (). 11:28:52 ok 11:28:52 car/cdr are list opertions, rather than cons operations, in CL. 11:28:59 Scheme differs on this point. 11:29:50 and i don't like that in scheme 11:29:53 (setf states (nconc states (list new-state-kw new-state))) 11:29:59 I'll stay with that then 11:30:01 thanks :) 11:30:39 appending to the beginning might be better 11:31:40 stassats` - like adjoin ? 11:31:43 or cons ? 11:31:48 rares [~rares@174-26-125-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:19 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@adsl-89-132-54-34.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:32:41 whatever suits you 11:33:12 ;) 11:33:15 thx 11:33:41 I am a beginner, I want to read some well written, functional style CL code. Any suggestion? 11:34:00 TeMPOraL: you understand why, right? because to append to the end of a list you need to traverse the whole list 11:34:22 stassats` right, I understand that 11:34:24 but to be honest 11:34:32 I forgot about this right now :d 11:34:40 udzinari: why do you want functional style code? 11:34:55 that's not where CL thrives 11:34:57 that we are talking about *lists* here 11:35:19 I guess I'm too used to stuffing everything into array for performance (C++) :D 11:35:28 (std::vector, ofc.) 11:35:39 stassats`: easier to understand from my point of view at the moment 11:35:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@adsl-89-132-54-34.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:36:36 TeMPOraL: luckily, in Lisp you can choose data structures right for the job 11:39:34 If a thread is blocked in pthread_cond_wait (#-sb-lutex); what happens when one calls interrupt-thread on that thread then; the lisp interrupt gets queued, and pthread_kill is invoked on that os thread; what happens then? 11:40:53 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:45 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:44:09 -!- prip_ [~foo@host224-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:45:02 prip_ [~foo@host224-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:45:56 do you know any reasonable way to get rid of compiler warnings, when a method doesn't use one or more parameters specified by defgeneric ? 11:46:13 (declare (ignore parameter)) 11:46:15 (declare (ignorable ...))? 11:46:25 kthx 11:46:31 ywlcm 11:46:53 clhs ignore 11:46:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm 11:47:04 works for any variables, not just for defmethod 11:47:41 I guess some of those params will gone after all (having unused variables is usually bad code), but for now I need just to clean up the mess that shows in REPL after loading a file... ;) 11:48:11 thanks stassats` 11:48:19 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 11:48:35 also, (declare (ignore (function foo))) for unused flet/labels. Useful for macros 11:48:44 in the REPL you can do C-c M-o, it will clean up any mess 11:49:07 stassats` currently I work with CCL and it's not binded to Slime 11:49:24 I have 4 different implementations running under win32 right now :D 11:49:25 Phoodus: ITYM ignorable, as for macros 11:49:40 erm, yeah ignorable 11:49:49 TeMPOraL: you can use them all at the same time in Slime 11:49:55 TeMPOraL: I've got 4 or so CLs available under Slime, too 11:49:59 clisp, sbcl, ccl, acl 11:50:50 i have 9 CLs and one scheme 11:51:18 wow 11:51:33 stassats`: No clojure? 11:51:35 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:51:59 So, I have come to an initial conclusion on CLIM II: It's at least half junk. Notably, anything prior to part V of the spec is in some way broken. 11:52:01 no, fortunately 11:53:41 And I suspect that a good half of part V could profitably be declared to be separable support libraries. 11:54:08 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 11:54:42 -!- prip_ [~foo@host224-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:55:27 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:55:54 andreo [~user@thick.utterance.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:18 how can i install asdf on sbcl? 11:56:53 afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 11:57:59 andreo: it's included in sbcl 11:58:04 (require 'asdf) 11:58:37 adeht` [~user@bzq-84-110-123-3.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:36 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 12:02:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 12:02:42 -!- adeht [~user@bzq-84-110-123-3.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:03:24 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:04:15 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 12:06:35 prip_ [~foo@host224-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:10:36 mega1 [~quassel@3e70cfc8.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:11:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:13:53 Guthur [~Michael@host81-156-239-195.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:56 -!- andreo [~user@thick.utterance.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:34 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:27:30 fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.203] has joined #lisp 12:29:05 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:36 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.193.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:19 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:19 milanj [~milan@212.200.194.100] has joined #lisp 12:39:25 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-125-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:34 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:52 rares [~rares@174-26-125-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:39 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:43 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-48-139.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:44:28 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-18-241.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:45:16 Umm... I think I broke something. I'm getting errors "there is no class named #:FOO", even after re-evaluating the defclass form. 12:46:04 (Yes, #:FOO is the right name, it's been transplanted from one package to another, and the symbol-package hasn't been fixed up.) 12:48:12 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f662f1b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 12:48:38 -!- adeht` is now known as adeht 12:49:11 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:49:55 Ugh. And it -caches- the lack of package in make-instance. WTF? 12:50:54 stick a PRINT around the expansion of MAKE-INSTANCE compiler macro 12:51:35 it should just hold on to the symbol 12:52:04 Yeah, and externalizatio... BLOODY SLIME. 12:52:15 It's being externalized, and a symbol with no defined home-package... 12:53:23 when creating two threads in a function body, is it normal that if a socket blocks the first thread, the second never gets created? 12:53:45 I keep thinking of C-c C-c as doing in-core compilation, and it uses compile-file on a temporary file. 12:53:59 kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111119123.a1.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:18 etate: No. I therefore suspect that you might not be doing what you think you're doing. 12:54:38 nyef: can sbcl do in-core compilation? 12:54:41 e.g: (lambda () (make-thread (lambda () (receive-message mailbox))) (make-thread f)) 12:54:51 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:54:57 with all semantics of compile-file 12:55:16 No, not with all the semantics of compile-file. 12:55:24 somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:55:45 nyef: I added a make-thread around the first make-thread and wrapped that in a lambda and it worked in creating the next thread, so something is definitely odd 12:56:13 nyef: you can use C-M-x, it will eval 12:56:22 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56:43 stassats`: Gah. That's even worse of a finger-twister than C-c C-z on this keyboard. 12:56:46 nyef: i think it might have to do with the sb-mailbox code 12:57:11 lisppaste: url? 12:57:11 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:57:19 etate: paste it 12:57:20 Mmm... And I don't know. Today's the first time in ages that I've even used make-thread. 12:57:25 stassats`: okay 12:58:39 http://paste.lisp.org/display/96951 12:58:48 the offending code is the watcher functions 12:58:51 function* 13:00:21 first, your indentation is wrong, maybe that's confusing you 13:00:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:00:39 stassats`: it is? 13:01:10 use C-M-q for fixing it 13:01:10 stassats`: (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function) 13:01:43 stassats`: that doesn't change much 13:02:08 i'm probably using the wrong lisp-indent-function 13:02:11 so, why do you create thread inside a thread? 13:02:25 stassats`: because without it the next thread never gets created 13:03:07 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:03:46 the first make-thread doesn't return? 13:04:08 one sec let me try it again and see if it happens again, i modified the code a lil since this error occured 13:06:49 c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:28 gnucheng [~freakrobo@111.172.75.83] has joined #lisp 13:11:07 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 13:12:05 that nesting of MAKE-THREAD makes no sense 13:12:16 are EPOLL-ADD and EPOLL-REMOVE threads safe? 13:12:36 nikodemus: they call out to cffi-bound functions, 13:12:43 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-110-109.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:12:52 I earlier asked: If a thread is blocked in pthread_cond_wait (#-sb-lutex); what happens when one calls interrupt-thread on that thread then; the lisp interrupt gets queued, and pthread_kill is invoked on that os thread; what happens then? Anyone? 13:13:24 mk [~user@159.92.64.121] has joined #lisp 13:13:45 In particular I'm wondering if the reacquiring phase of cond_wait is interruptable with pthreads, or not 13:13:50 surely we don't use pthread_cond_wait except with lutexes? 13:13:55 -!- mk is now known as Guest51763 13:14:04 right I menat #+sb-lutex 13:14:07 meant 13:14:30 ok. i don't know offhand, but i have a pretty clear recollection that sb-lutex stuff is definitely not interrupt safe 13:14:54 well it's more of what happens from unix point of view 13:15:16 man: pthread_cond_wait 13:15:16 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/pthread_cond_wait.3.html 13:15:42 hmm how do you actually know for sure whether something is thread safe or not? 13:16:02 you read the docs 13:16:16 if it doesn't say it's thread safe you mostly assume it isn't 13:16:23 etate: ultimatively? reading the source; alternatively trusting some source 13:16:25 nikodemus: I mean how do you make something thread safe yourself 13:16:37 e.g: if i call out to C functionality, is that thread safe? 13:16:39 how do i know? 13:16:51 using locks and other atomic operations 13:17:18 it's just regular threaded programming -- i'm not quite sure i understand the question, actually 13:17:47 but i mean don't you only need to ensure thread safety when multiple threads are going to read / write to some place? 13:18:19 etate: ...yes? 13:18:30 That deadlines trump w/o-interrupt surely does not seem correct: (w/o-interrupts (uwp (progn (release-mutex) (futex-wait)) (get-mutex)); the get-mutex in the cleanup clause could signal a deadline resulting in unwinding. 13:18:36 nikodemus: k just checking there wasn't more to it than that :) 13:18:49 (epoll-add and epoll-remove seem like to me they might easily be doing that) 13:19:09 nikodemus: they are using sb-mailboxes and synchronized hash table 13:19:28 actually no they are not 13:19:32 tcr: sbcl-devel, please 13:19:56 they are adding file descriptors / removing them from an epolled file descriptor 13:20:10 nikodemus: that was my intention, I just wanted to probe here whether I'm embarrassingly missing something :-) 13:20:14 tcr: Gee, I've been shocked and horrified at the idea of anything trumping w/o-interrupts for days now, and you're finally getting the picture? 13:21:02 tcr: it still isn't obvious to me, but i haven't taken a while to think it properly through 13:22:33 stassats`: hmm never mind, it works now for some odd reason :) 13:25:19 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 13:25:22 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:56 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-110-109.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:28:16 etate: Re. ffi and threads; it also depends on the threading implementation; e.g. allegro used green threads on linux until the very recent release, that meant that an ffi call blocked the Lisp world 13:29:30 tcr: yeah i've experienced that in allegro before, apparently the licensed version can make these calls without blocking 13:30:09 actually in the end i used PLT Scheme instead on that project and the ffi calls there didn't block 13:31:24 What's a good source for the interplay of signals and threads? 13:31:30 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-17-181.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:19 tcr: gabor 13:32:53 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 13:33:10 and then presumably, whatever I read; OSX won't be likely to adhere to it? 13:33:34 i at least haven't been able to find anything really good -- reading the various opengroup docs can help, as can generic pthread and signal handing guides, but i haven't seen a single unified treatment 13:33:43 you got it! 13:34:24 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-31-64.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:38 Fortunately, nobody truly important uses OSX for anything. ^_- 13:34:55 I've added an :interruptable-require t/nil to condition-wait which steers whether the reacquiring phase may infinitely block or not. Now I'm wondering whether pthread_cond_timedwait could always block infinitely in that phase without us doing anything about it. 13:35:46 tcr: i hope you're also going to write docs to users when to use it and when not to... 13:36:18 Sure, the default is nil btw. unless now 13:36:28 s/unless/contrarily to/ 13:36:39 *nyef* has a simple rule: The primitive to avoid is MAKE-THREAD. If you can manage that, you're golden. 13:41:46 carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.140] has joined #lisp 13:47:37 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:42 bombel [~fmagno@av3-84-90-83-214.netvisao.pt] has joined #lisp 13:48:46 mmmmm #xc0ffee 13:49:27 (Just started Lips yesterday :) ) Hi everyone. What is the difference between: (setq a 5) and (set 'a 5) ? 13:49:46 clhs set 13:49:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set.htm 13:50:23 the first is a function, the second is a special form 13:50:31 the other way around 13:50:32 the notes at the bottom cut the long story short 13:50:39 set is a function, setq a special form 13:50:41 don't forget setf! 13:51:27 bombel: are you learning from a book? if so, which? 13:51:48 *Deesl* is interested to know which book nikodemus will suggest 13:51:59 minion: pcl-book 13:51:59 pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:52:04 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d5153E2B8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:52:27 one book to rule them all 13:52:38 nikodemus, no book yet. I'm trying to fing a good tutorial from the internet. But so far just found a nice motivating article:http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html 13:52:59 bombel: pcl is fully online as well 13:53:32 nikodemus: where can I find PCL online? 13:53:42 ignore that question 13:53:46 stupid one :( 13:53:50 gigamonkeys... 13:53:58 minion: gentle introduction 13:53:58 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 13:54:01 hm 13:54:05 minion: gentle? 13:54:06 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 13:54:09 also, an answer to a lot of these sorts of questions is "Common Lisp amalgomated a number of separate Lisps that came before" 13:54:25 and after! 13:54:43 so there's different ways to do the same thing, and has some unorthogonality 13:55:35 that one, yes. -- possibly better than pcl _if_ you have virtually no programming experience at all 13:55:52 bombel: I would recommend AMOP, its pretty amazing 13:56:37 amop is a second or third book, though -- not first for the 99% of people 13:56:39 etate, what is AMOP ? 13:56:43 ah 13:56:45 minion: amop 13:56:45 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 13:57:15 nikodemus: I'm not sure its a second or third book really, i would rather have stumbled upon it first, personally 13:57:26 one thing is for sure, there is no shortage of great books on lisp 13:57:28 *JuanDaugherty* got it c. 1991 13:58:04 etate: if you don't know lisp at all, i can't see how it would be anything but confusing 13:58:06 with S. Kleene's book, the title of which escapes me ATM 13:58:12 -!- blez [~hyper@ip-162-4-71-77.varnalan.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:16 minion: keene? 13:58:17 keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/keene 13:58:24 wvdschel [~wim@d5153E2B8.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:58:28 JuanDaugherty: Mixing things up with the Kleene star? 13:58:54 pcl has the great advantage of showing of very nice and idiomatic style 14:00:24 yeah PCL is a great book, i think maybe PCL then AMOP would be a good combination 14:00:42 or pcl, then paip 14:01:06 minion: paip? 14:01:07 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 14:02:45 "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmers Guide to CLOS" Sonya E. Keene, so yeah confounded Keene and Kleene. 14:02:58 Thank you, guys! 14:03:10 you people scared him :D 14:03:13 too much information 14:03:21 *Deesl* is scared as well :$ 14:03:27 after that there is Queinnecs book which is also great 14:03:35 :) 14:03:45 maybe i spelt that wrong though 14:03:54 paip and koza's genetic programming are fun books. on lisp is dry as hell. I got bored reading ansi common lisp, probably never finish it. 14:04:29 yeah i found that too, ansi common lisp got really boring, On Lisp was even worse and didn't include exercises :'( 14:04:41 but the macro chapters are useful for reference 14:05:04 I think I'll try to find out in the books you suggested a list of the basic built in functions of lisp and their meanings. 14:05:24 also beware the paul graham books, they are 50% philosophy 50% lisp :p 14:05:41 and plenty of bad style 14:06:06 on lisp is freakin awsome if you have the spare neurons to actually _understand_ what's in the book, something I don't claim. 14:06:52 tbh you can get more out of SICP than either On Lisp or Ansi CL 14:07:10 minion: tell me about LiSP 14:07:10 stassats`: have a look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 14:07:13 with pgs "Scheme in CL" style you may as well go that route 14:07:25 etate: Queinnec 14:08:50 But I must say that if the guy that wrote this article is not a politician, then he should be. Cause I really became interested in Lisp after reading it :) http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html 14:09:23 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:11:30 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:04 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 14:12:29 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-147-13.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:44 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-15-225.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:18:18 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 14:20:07 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 14:21:04 abugosh1 [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:21 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:28:09 -!- milanj [~milan@212.200.194.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:44 nikodemus, i think we should pop this back to #lisp, maybe someone has something to add... 14:29:02 right 14:29:23 so, i have a diagnoses for attila's corruption 14:29:44 DixitDominus [~zuhilfe@cpe-74-68-150-209.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:50 loading a saved core ends us straight in ldb because of some page table corruption 14:29:50 well, not *his* corruption -- there's no explaining that... -- but the sbcl corruption he's been seeing 14:29:51 *DixitDominus* starts coding with fury 14:30:03 heh :) 14:30:20 DixitDominus: new programming language? ;) 14:30:27 not really. trying to learn this 14:30:34 apparently the problem is due to having free pages in the middle for which code saving/loading cores is not prepared 14:30:38 what happens is that when we save we first collect into (mostly) high memory, and then into (mostly) low memory 14:30:42 first things first: sbc/ 14:30:54 hmm, when I make a new programming language, I'll call it "fury" 14:30:56 *attila_lendvai* pokes nyef 14:31:27 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-958d72d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:31:29 *attila_lendvai* pokes mega1 too :) 14:31:44 in practice that "mostly" is almost always completely -- since we pick free pages from low memory first -- but there doesn't appear to be any guarantee that it actually is so 14:31:49 attila_lendvai: I put in a few fixes to local-time recently 14:31:53 -!- bombel [~fmagno@av3-84-90-83-214.netvisao.pt] has left #lisp 14:31:55 what's the cobalt USE flag in gentoo ebuild? 14:32:23 aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:43 --> mips only: use mipsel binary instead of mips big endian binary to bootstrap 14:32:44 dlowe, i've seen them, they look good (to my - i'm afraid - still naiive eyes on timezones) 14:32:47 what is happening in this case is that a low page (#550 in this case) is free, and we save the allocation type (FREE_PAGE_FLAG) for it into the core 14:32:53 what's special about sbcl and mips?? 14:33:01 amd64 is no good? 14:33:48 but since it is in the middle of allocated pages -- below alloc_prt, to be exact -- gencgc_pickup_dynamic() sets its bytes_used=PAGE_BYTES, etc 14:34:36 then, during initialization the first time we try to allocate anything we go looking for a free page, find #550, and the assert that is should have bytes_used == 0 fails 14:35:00 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:35:25 my diagnosis so far is that this is a bug in the pickup: we should not do that for pages that are marked as free 14:36:35 i believe that the reason this hasn't shown up a million times before is that saving the page allocation type into core is a relatively new feature -- before those pages just ended up full of unused (0 . 0) in the static generation 14:37:47 the alternative is that i'm wrong, and that there is some intentended guarantee that empty pages like this should not occur in the middle of allocated ones after the double-collection during save 14:38:14 in which case something is wrong with that supposed mechanism 14:40:02 ... Someone poked? 14:40:21 nyef: read ~20 lines or so above 14:40:47 sanity checking my reasoning would be much appreciated 14:42:10 Without actually looking at the code, it sounds good. 14:44:02 The whole GC page table thing is sufficiently hairy and behaviorally-restricted that I think it should probably be redesigned, but... 14:47:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-15-225.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:47:37 nikodemus: did the MPS people respond ? 14:47:46 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-255-14.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:47:51 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-17-181.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:50:11 not yet 14:51:24 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-29-69.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:58 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:21 -!- abugosh1 [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:57:47 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 15:03:58 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 15:06:38 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:11 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 15:07:29 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:09 ubuntu-nathan [~Nathan@200.142.160.182] has joined #lisp 15:08:15 Hi all! 15:08:43 I'm a Scheme developer that is migrating all the knowledge for Lisp 15:08:44 :) 15:09:08 because of Lisp flexibility 15:09:28 but principally because of one thing 15:09:45 I've already developed a simple OS entirelly on C 15:10:07 then I was browsing and editing some articles at OSDev wiki 15:10:10 and I saw this 15:10:28 "Many high-level languages have been used for OS development in the past, including C, Lisp, FORTH, C#, C++, Modula-2, Ada, Bliss, and PL/1." 15:10:48 And you thought... "where can I find a BLISS compiler?" 15:10:50 then I want to know where can I find something more about OS Development using Lisp 15:10:52 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-27-158-154.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:10:58 lol 15:10:59 no 15:10:59 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@81.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:11:03 Have a look for something called "movitz". 15:11:08 ok 15:11:13 ubuntu-nathan: write us a kick arse lisp machine 15:11:25 :/ 15:12:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ 15:12:17 Somewhere around, I have a hack for running a rather minimal SBCL core on a bare x86 (there's a forth system that loads the core spaces and sets up the memory map, then everything else is in lisp). 15:12:32 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.157.14] has left #lisp 15:12:33 hmm 15:12:38 let me check 15:13:33 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@178.182.72.55.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: cya around .•«UPP»•.] 15:16:22 sepult` [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:24 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:26 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-102-171.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19:19 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 15:19:22 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:26 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:24 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-98-188.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-27-158-154.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:22:17 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:29:37 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:30:09 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 15:31:41 pkhuong: i'm intrigued by your type-lower-bound branch -- but i'm not sure i understand it 15:31:53 no, make that "i don't understand it" :) 15:32:23 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 15:34:18 ... The fopcompiler isn't used at xc-time, is it? 15:34:38 not sure 15:36:05 -!- ubuntu-nathan [~Nathan@200.142.160.182] has left #lisp 15:36:36 Well, I'm not seeing any references to the abominable fop-maybe-cold-load in it... 15:36:48 Nor fop-normal-load. 15:36:53 nicholasgmollel [~user@2002:9455:f0f6:b:217:f2ff:fe42:7a8e] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 -!- nicholasgmollel [~user@2002:9455:f0f6:b:217:f2ff:fe42:7a8e] has left #lisp 15:37:54 -!- rbancrof1 [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:55 nyef: what's the status of wider-fixnums branch, by the way? 15:39:45 One of the gc assert changes is known to be bogus, and it needs a test-case written for the array-type stuff. 15:40:41 -!- aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aquateen] 15:41:57 nice! 15:42:09 And it's been that way for at least a month. 15:44:05 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:44:07 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:10 Hey, what are the restrictions on classoid-names? 15:45:35 i think the same as proper class names 15:45:57 Does that mean that they're always symbols? 15:46:17 i suspect so 15:47:19 chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.52.72] has joined #lisp 15:47:27 Okay, I think I want two things. First, fop-host-symbol. Second, fop-set-package. 15:48:11 And I think those two things would allow me to get rid of fop-normal-load and fop-maybe-cold-load. 15:49:51 I think that should reduce some of the nastiness around genesis. 15:49:52 nicdev [~user@2002:9455:f0f6:b:217:f2ff:fe42:7a8e] has joined #lisp 15:50:21 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:50:36 nyef: I like your suggestion of sending someone to play with Bliss. It's positively evil. 15:51:05 p_l: Thanks, I think. 15:53:06 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:54:20 mik8y` [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 15:55:05 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:17 Anarkya69 [HackerssJa@190.36.189.206] has joined #lisp 15:55:23 -!- Anarkya69 [HackerssJa@190.36.189.206] has quit [Quit: http://hackerss.com"] 16:00:30 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.52.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:37 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:04:45 -!- nicdev [~user@2002:9455:f0f6:b:217:f2ff:fe42:7a8e] has left #lisp 16:05:48 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:06:35 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 16:07:34 nyef: sping 16:07:47 fe[nl]ix: spong? 16:08:17 attila_lendvai: here? 16:08:24 sno shost sfound ? 16:08:26 tcr, yep 16:08:45 shost snot sfound* 16:09:40 tcr pasted "cut-off sbcl backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96955 16:09:55 nyef: is there a chance that after a foreign call returns, but before user code reads errno, the GC might kick in and clobber errno ? 16:10:01 attila_lendvai: Was that the cut-off bug you were talking about? 16:10:09 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:18 nyef: e.g. on a unithreaded sbcl ? 16:10:19 fe[nl]ix: It wouldn't surprise me. 16:10:39 Oh, unithread? It'd take an asyncrhonous interrupt to tickle that. 16:11:04 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 nyef: that was just an exmple 16:12:20 Well, the question is, does signal-handling preserve errno? 16:12:25 did anyone try ABCL on Android? 16:12:31 nyef: yes 16:12:41 *attila_lendvai* is strugglign to start a slime 16:12:50 nyef: how difficult would it be to add an option to sb-alien:alien-funcall to atomically return errno as second value ? 16:13:19 p_l: Iirc yes, ask #abcl or read through abcl-devel 16:13:38 chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.52.72] has joined #lisp 16:13:39 Okay, if signal-handling preserves errno, and stop-for-gc operates via signal-handling, that leaves only the -invoking- GC case. 16:13:48 tcr, i have a fully working backtrace, but i also have some customizations. i disable them an see how it goes 16:14:11 attila_lendvai: could you paste it? 16:14:24 ... And that goes through the SIGTRAP handler. 16:14:30 At least, on x86oids. 16:14:40 (well, gencgc.) 16:14:42 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:27 is there a simple way of getting hold of the current "errno" ? 16:15:31 attila annotated #96955 "works for me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96955#1 16:15:43 fe[nl]ix: So the first part of your answer is that it can't happen on gencgc platforms. I don't know about the cheneygc platforms, though. 16:15:59 tcr, it seems to produce a working backtrace even without (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'sb-c::save-fp-and-pc-around-alien-call 3) 16:16:00 attila_lendvai: that's interesting because it is cut off for me 16:16:12 you're on linux right? 16:16:13 tcr, oh, it's x86_64 here 16:16:24 tcr, lemme check on the x86 server... 16:16:25 let me try on 64bit 16:17:08 hola 16:17:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17:11 it works there 16:18:16 anyone on osx? 16:18:22 bsd? 16:19:02 attila annotated #96955 "this is x86 only" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96955#2 16:19:24 yup, I'll submit this to lp 16:19:54 tcr, i would transfer some karma points if i could! thanks for the small test-case! 16:20:32 is there some system call i can use to get hold of errno or some way to get at it? I saw some discussion about this on cffi-devel but I don't see it in cffi-sys 16:20:41 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Quit: C-x C-c] 16:21:05 would rather get hold of an int or a string rather than having it printed to stderr by perror 16:21:44 nyef: in src/compiler/aliencomp.lisp:676 I see that alien-funcall already uses with-pinned-objects 16:21:46 does that mean that it's never necessary to use it explicitly ? 16:22:09 It... can be necessary. 16:23:04 That's for direct parameters, not for more complicated setups. 16:23:09 etate: sb-posix:syscall-error? 16:23:48 stassats`: oh awesome thank you :) 16:25:29 HG` [~HG@xdslff126.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:31 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has left #lisp 16:25:48 attila_lendvai: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/549673 16:27:30 etate: it will signal a condition with the result of strerror 16:28:07 stassats`: yeah the error is that its being interrupted by a signal 16:28:37 as in i'm calling a syscall that seems to be being interrupted by some signal eeh 16:29:11 So catch for eintr? 16:29:30 fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:06 is there no without-interrupts macro or something like that? 16:30:55 there is but I don't think it's appropriate to your problem 16:31:23 -!- mik8y` [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:27 well i'm calling epoll-wait edge triggered and its being interrupted it seems by some signal when called 16:31:57 which doesn't make a whole load of sense since i don't think i'm signalling anything :/ 16:32:24 sbcl uses signals internally for a couple of things 16:32:59 *tcr* trying to build sbcl using :sb-lutex on Linux 16:33:24 tcr: a couple of things such as what? i could be signalling without knowing it i guess 16:34:29 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:16 threads interrupting I know for sure; I guess also gc and stepping 16:36:05 A pile of synchronous signalling to do with internal-error, write-barriers, etc. 16:36:57 the without-interrupts macro doesn't seem to help here in any case :p 16:37:23 we have explicit memory-fences available from Lisp? 16:37:23 i think its probably being interrupted by a thread 16:37:26 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslff126.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:37:31 or what's "write-barrier"? 16:38:11 etate: The other thing is that without-interrupts doesn't actually set the signal mask, it still can be interrupted, it just defers dealing with the interrupt until "later". 16:38:50 hrm seems like :sb-lutex is broken on Linux 16:39:06 nyef: having looked at the code, I don't see anyway epoll wait could be being interrupted by another thread 16:39:08 epic fail 16:39:16 *epoll_wait even 16:39:27 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-255-14.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 16:39:41 nyef: is there some way of making a piece of code "out of bounds" for signals? 16:39:43 what's this --> wrap.c:(.text+0x63c): warning: the use of `mktemp' is dangerous, better use `mkstemp' 16:39:46 ./linux-nm sbcl | grep -v " [FUw] " > ,sbcl.nm 16:40:16 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:40:19 it's failing compiling 16:40:35 *DixitDominus* tries again 16:40:39 Just without-interrupts. If a signal comes in during without-interrupts, then the fact of an inbound signal is recorded and further signals are masked. 16:41:14 nyef: where is it recorded? :D 16:41:14 oO this thing compiles fast with four cores 16:41:35 whom? that was to my problem? 16:41:44 etate: In the thread struct. 16:41:46 I am compiling with make -j 4 16:41:51 ok no 16:42:33 does sbcl take the -j argument? 16:43:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:44:33 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:46 DixitDominus: come to #lispcafe 16:45:02 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:45:08 lol 16:46:47 kzar [~kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 nyef: in the interruptions field in the struct? I can't seem to access it either as a var or use it as an accessor 16:47:27 The C struct, not the lisp-side one. 16:47:55 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.72.203] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 nyef: is there some way of accessing that? 16:48:26 A couple. 16:48:52 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:49:02 nyef: you won't tell me? :D 16:49:02 Actually, if memory serves, the fact of the interruption (not the saved interrupt data) is kept in static-symbol TLS binding. 16:49:43 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:05 sb-sys:*interrupt-pending*, maybe? 16:51:16 nyef: that gives me nil, maybe because the interrupt happens but doesn't pend 16:51:50 can't seem to find the TLS binding symbol 16:52:09 It should only ever be true inside without-interrupts and after an interrupt has been attempted. 16:52:16 -!- gnucheng [~freakrobo@111.172.75.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:34 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.72.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:52:39 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52:50 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sgbvncdigddpmlti] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 -!- afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [Quit: afa] 16:54:18 nyef: hmm, within the without-interrupts, after the interrupt occurs, i printed sb-sys:*interrupt-pending* and it just gives me nil 16:54:37 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 I'm afraid I'm running out of ability to assist you here. 16:55:29 no worries, you said I could look at the interruptions field on the C side to see what the interruption data was? 16:56:21 maybe if i could figure out the address, and get into ldb, it could be doable? 16:57:28 It's looking like there's no interrupt that SBCL recognizes. 16:57:48 Unless you're catching a GC? Try without-gcing instead of without-interrupts? 16:58:28 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:36 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d5153E2B8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 17:00:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sgbvncdigddpmlti] has left #lisp 17:02:07 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:03:02 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-254-29.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:05:32 nyef: oh my god that worked 17:06:30 etate: Now, -why- did it work? 17:06:53 We don't normally suppress the GC for random alien code. 17:07:17 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:07:18 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:26 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:07:57 so it was trying to garbage collect whilst i was calling epoll-wait ? thats odd since I don't think I was allocating anything in Lisp land 17:08:37 also i did slime-list-threads and everything crashed, but that may be unrelated 17:08:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-254-29.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:09:04 crash how? 17:09:25 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:26 just froze permanently, couldn't do anything to figure out what did it 17:09:50 tcr: did you find an Mac os tester ? 17:09:50 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:38 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:10:45 nyef: seems I spoke too soon I think, the without-gcing macro seems to stop the interrupt but deadlock the repl 17:11:02 Yeah, have your wait return and your repl should recover. 17:13:37 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:13:56 nyef: hmm it seems to have stopped every other thread from working properly 17:14:19 Well, that's what happens when they're all waiting for a GC. 17:14:47 So, as I said, try getting that wait-function to return. 17:15:15 tsuru: I managed to build sbcl using sb-lutex (what's usually used on OSX) on Linux, but thanks for the offer 17:15:44 problem is for it to return, another thread has to give feed it a socket file descriptor, this other thread being blocked, so maybe i should just place without-gcing calls around these threads 17:15:45 tcr: and it is working? 17:16:01 sure why not? 17:16:09 etate: Wrong hammer. 17:16:09 just curious 17:16:29 sb-lutex just means that pthreads are used for synchronization rather than futex 17:16:40 pthread_mutex, pthread_cond_var etc 17:16:42 etate: You might be better off figuring out why a GC kills your thread, and how to make it not kill your thread without blocking GCs altogether. 17:17:42 seems like pthread_cond_wait is somehow interruptible 17:19:06 nyef: yeah its pretty strange, i didn't think CFFI allocated much to be GCed but maybe i'm wrong 17:19:36 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:20:57 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:22:20 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 17:27:22 hmm I'm wondering why we do not make use of pthreads cancelation 17:27:56 deadlines seems to a lisp implementation in exactly the same direction 17:28:38 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:32 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:29 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-145.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:35:47 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:36:41 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 17:37:08 when a new thread occurs does that trigger a GC? 17:37:49 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:08 bah even making it return doesn't help ehh, think this code is meant to be in C 17:41:09 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:00 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 17:46:55 snearch [~olaf@e179134166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:40 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 17:47:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:49:44 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:28 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:12 subhro [~bsdboy@115.117.193.118] has joined #lisp 18:09:42 -!- subhro [~bsdboy@115.117.193.118] has quit [Client Quit] 18:10:38 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:11:17 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 18:12:07 daniel [~daniel@p5082D02B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:09 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:18 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082D09D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:32 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:20 HI 18:22:12 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 18:22:18 DixitDominus: hi. 18:22:19 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:23:21 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 18:23:51 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25:48 afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-60-82-254-216-20.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:27:15 gcv [~gcv@ool-457569c4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:50 -!- prip_ [~foo@host224-129-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:30:08 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:43 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 18:36:10 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:37:22 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:41:35 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-157-86.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:42 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:43:56 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-168-34.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:46 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-46-59.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:47:13 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:32 -!- gcv [~gcv@ool-457569c4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: gcv] 18:48:11 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-145.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:49:21 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:15 Good evening! 18:53:41 hey beach 18:53:48 Hello beach. 18:54:08 hi beach 18:54:44 ola 18:56:03 beach: So, I don't know if you've noticed my recent mutterings, but I've come to the conclusion that CLIM is mostly-to-completely broken. 18:56:22 I saw that, but decided not to intervene. 18:56:29 Heh. Fair enough. 18:56:40 nyef: It is still useful, but we definitely need CLIM 3. 18:57:22 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 18:57:24 beach: make that your research project for the next 2+ years 18:57:29 nyef: are your mutterings on a blog or was it here? 18:57:42 huh, in asdf, do i have to specify :serial t for sub-modules too? 18:57:43 Guthur: It was here. Well, here and in #lispgames, I think. 18:57:56 stassats`: I wouldn't be surprised. 18:58:09 it was, I saw this few hours ago ;) 18:58:15 fe[nl]ix: First, I need to get rid of my current admin responsibilities, of which I have 16 more weeks to go. 18:59:14 beach: good :) 18:59:32 beach, hows indochina? 18:59:32 and if there's no neither dependencies, nor :serial t, why not just load like it was :serial t? 18:59:40 s/no// 18:59:50 Guthur: Not there right now, but I'll go again end of May. 18:59:55 nyef: Would you be interested in designing CLIM 3 with me? 19:00:38 I think at this point I'm going to try to get something basic going that I can use myself, and then worry about something like CLIM 3. 19:03:13 *stassats`* would be interested in using CLIM 3 19:03:55 stassats`: If there's no :serial t, and no declared dependencies, clearly each file can be loaded independently. 19:05:00 nyef: in theory, but asdf doesn't benefit currently by loading them independently 19:07:23 I think I am finally beginning to understand the entire condition system, including restarts. 19:07:57 leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:00 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:53 Axius [~hi@92.85.208.232] has joined #lisp 19:13:13 is there any way to tell compiler to ignore undeclared functions and not issue warnings? 19:13:19 -!- Axius [~hi@92.85.208.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:37 TeMPOraL: Why would you want to do that? 19:13:41 just define functions in question 19:13:50 right, functions can be redefined 19:14:16 why do you need to have them defined later? 19:14:19 (beach): I want some functions to be specified by runtime depending on which file you (load ..) 19:15:10 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-89.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:15:30 Does SBCL really emit a warning about undefined functions? 19:15:39 Clozure does 19:15:50 they're at the very least deferred until the end of the current compilation unit 19:15:56 clhs with-compilation-unit 19:16:18 yes, but those functions would be still undefined at compile-time 19:16:51 If you want to define them at runtime, put in stubs 19:16:59 and put a comment there 19:17:29 vieq [~vieq@unaffiliated/vieq] has joined #lisp 19:17:52 right ;) 19:18:00 Strictly speaking, their definition should not be in the same file as their uses, as implementations are permitted to arbitrarily inline in that case. 19:18:36 I'd probably add an extra level of indirection 19:18:39 there's notinline, but still the whole thing doesn't sound right to me 19:18:43 can't you muffle that style-warning (along with redefine SW)? 19:18:57 (defun foo (args...) (funcall *foo-function* ...)) 19:19:56 -!- vieq [~vieq@unaffiliated/vieq] has left #lisp 19:20:10 strange, clx hangs in ccl unless it was compiled with debug 2 19:20:52 stassats`: If you can track it down, and it isn't a CCL bug, please let clx-devel know. 19:21:04 nyef: sure 19:22:22 if it was hanging with debug 2 too, it'd be easier to debug, now i have to stick to debug 1 19:22:26 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 19:25:50 hmm 19:25:59 can't I use generics / methods instead? 19:26:30 you can, but instead of what? 19:26:33 I was going to suggest that. 19:26:43 just defgeneric, then add a default method at runtime 19:26:44 instead of overriding functions at runtime 19:26:46 But since you haven't explained your problem, it's hard to say. 19:27:04 I was thinking out loud with those generics right now 19:27:19 the problem is: I'm making a fast-coded messy level loading 19:27:29 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:27:38 so I thought that - for now - levels could just be .lisp files (load)ed at runtime 19:27:55 that would provide some functions for game to get level details from 19:28:30 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.19.1, CLSQL 5.0.5, ECL 10.3.1 19:28:39 could you paste an example of how the code looks like? 19:30:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/96961 19:30:52 the (level-get-*) are the 'functions' I want each level to define 19:31:08 so that they get overwritten by every (load-level ...) call 19:31:16 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 -!- rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:07 TeMPOraL: my approach was to have a define-level macro, and have the user specify the initial game objects 19:34:13 in the end, each level is named, and has its own class (which is a subclass of WORLD.. worlds are not necessarily named) 19:34:39 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-eokuiwbkvgeuqagz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:35:09 re-playing a level involves reinitialize-instance 19:36:58 heh 19:37:08 ok, I need to rethink that 19:38:38 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 19:39:53 no bots? 19:40:34 hi beach 19:40:49 Hey Krystof, thanks for doing the GIT conversion for Gsharp. 19:40:59 that's OK 19:41:00 I hope it works 19:41:14 i cloned it successfully 19:41:19 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 *Krystof* adjusts clbuild 19:41:51 *Krystof* waits for complaints to appear in his inbox 19:43:44 thanks all, gotta go, be back later ;) 19:43:56 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: bbl .•«UPP»•.] 19:44:08 beach: hopefully over Easter we at work will now publish some of our current hacks / works in progress 19:44:23 we submitted that paper, btw 19:44:34 Krystof: Great! Where to? 19:45:05 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:45:10 ISMIR 19:45:20 Oh, that's fantastic! 19:45:30 # I hope the abstract is more to your taste :-) 19:46:08 more than what? 19:46:14 than the one you read on Tuesday 19:46:29 *beach* is checking 19:46:49 ISMIR is in Utrecht this year; I plan to go even if none of my submissions is accepted (though if that turns out to be the case I'd probably be a bit grumpy :-) 19:48:02 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:15 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111119123.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:48:56 It's better. 19:49:24 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:49:30 I really prefer abstracts as filters, as opposed to abstracts like "if you read this article, you'll learn something great". 19:49:49 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:52:24 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #lisp 19:52:42 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:55:39 -!- afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [Quit: afa] 19:56:07 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-141-155-23-118.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:40 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:54 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-29-69.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:13 mstevens [~mstevens@212.183.140.3] has joined #lisp 19:59:37 Nice paper! 20:00:47 thanks 20:01:09 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-38-10.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:26 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-141-155-23-118.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:04:34 PuffTheMagic_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 20:04:54 mstevens_ [~mstevens@jobs.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:06:02 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@jobs.etla.org] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:22 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@212.183.140.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:08:45 mstevens [~mstevens@jobs.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:18:55 kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111119123.a1.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111119123.a1.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:57 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:22:00 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:22:01 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 20:22:01 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 20:22:53 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:39 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.124.207.234] has joined #lisp 20:23:41 nikodemus: we work with types as *ranges* of types (defined with an upper and lower bound). The goal was, first, to hint the compiler as to what the programmer knows can't be known; the other interesting thing is that we can handle imprecise logic operators, by widening the result. E.g. (not x) -> something between nil and T probably doesn't break correctness, and different from exactly T. 20:24:10 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:30 Is anyone running SBCL in Windows 7? 20:25:47 balooga: It is better to just state your problem. 20:26:42 beach: complaints of lispbuilder-sdl crashes in sbcl/windows 7 64-bit. 20:27:26 balooga: 32-bit DLLs or 64-bit? 20:28:43 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:29:36 I think 32-bit DLL's. Since a 64-bit SDL.dll is not avaialble from libsdl.org 20:30:42 -!- Alexandr [~Alexandr@unaffiliated/alexandr] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 20:31:47 -!- DixitDominus [~zuhilfe@cpe-74-68-150-209.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:31:48 I don't even have a debug, since I don't have windows 7. Just flying blind. 20:36:14 Found one dump, in Windows 7 32-bit. "GC invariant lost" http://nopaste.gamedev.pl/?&id=6583 20:37:34 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-46-59.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:39:08 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1279375297.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:40:17 prip [~foo@host149-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:40:22 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.124.207.234] has joined #lisp 20:43:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:43:52 is there some easy way to monitor X protocol? 20:44:19 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.124.207.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:44:41 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:45:06 *x-events* :-)