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01:06:51 Some part of me says "don't load the slime-repl contrib", but that's not quite helpful. 01:07:13 akm [~Alan@c-67-180-16-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:53 I do want the slime-repl, just not replacing an important lisp buffer I want to work on. 01:08:42 That I can't help you with. 01:08:59 you can switch between buffers 01:09:04 I'd either already have slime running, or switch back to the buffer in question once slime finishes loading. 01:09:08 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:15 C-x b is a wonderful thing. 01:09:25 otherwise, SMOP 01:10:16 is there a built-in way to get (or iterate through) a list of the indices of 1-bits in a bit vector? eg i'd like to get (0 4) by writing (find-set-bits #*100010). obviously i can roll my own with map, but it's inconvenient and inefficient 01:10:18 I couldn't even get you to sympathize with me! 01:10:36 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 01:10:46 clhs position 01:10:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm 01:11:37 akm: There are clever tricks you can pull with integers, but I'm not aware of anything for a bit-vector. 01:11:47 maden [~maden@dsl-159-129.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 01:12:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-75-141.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:36 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-75-141.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:14:08 hm, that's a good point. i wonder if i might be better off using integers instead of bitsets, since they're arbitrarily large anyway 01:15:30 Now, for an integer, (logand foo (1- foo)) turns off the low bit. (xor (logand foo (1- foo)) foo) turns off all but the low bit. And then you use integer-length. 01:15:31 i doubt using bignums would be much faster than bit-vectors 01:15:38 disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E925.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:13 *Xach* has been pretty happy with bit vectors for his search application 01:16:24 Yeah, but you still win for fixnums, and you can use LDB to do things a machine word at a time. 01:16:26 sbcl uses the tricks you might imagine from warren. 01:16:37 Fair enough. 01:16:44 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-75-141.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:03 my "indexes set in a bit vector" is just a loop into a (count 1 bit-vector)-sized array 01:18:13 Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.248] has joined #lisp 01:18:26 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-75-141.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:19:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/96908 is it 01:21:37 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:23:10 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:25 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:24:31 position doesn't seem to have any optimizations on bit-vectors 01:26:29 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.21] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:32:01 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:33:40 stassats: yet! 01:34:01 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:35:31 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-gptttqpyekuckdzo] has joined #lisp 01:40:15 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:48 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:55 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:19 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:33 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:29 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 02:00:20 -!- merimus_ [~merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: merimus_] 02:00:24 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:00:24 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:03:15 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:03:46 is there a good article/tutorial/editorial on sldb-fu? 02:04:30 isn't it intuitive? 02:06:24 not really. no. I'm missing plenty of idosyncracies that were really powerful from my "other life" (e.g. C, C++, objC, js ...) 02:07:41 I'm looking for something a-la Marco Berringer or something like that. Just general practices on how to go about doing stuff. 02:10:01 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:10:20 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-75-141.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:13:30 -!- disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E925.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:13:33 -!- aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aquateen] 02:14:02 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.187] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:15:34 aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:35 here's an example: interaction with a debug stack in lisp is very different from imperative languages. For starters, I don't even know what it would mean to single step. 02:15:47 so really, that means I don't know how to interact with the stack itself 02:16:17 I guess I'm gonna have to grate my knuckles against this one until I get it =) 02:16:23 i've never used single stepping in lisp 02:16:41 yeah. I don't think it's appropriate even as a concept. 02:16:56 so what do you do? 02:16:59 you inspect locals? 02:17:21 my biggest problem is that I have a really hard time figuring out exactly where the crash occured. 02:17:41 single stepping is quite appropriate, if you like it 02:17:46 or to be more lispy: the condition signaled 02:17:47 single stepping lisp is a perfectly fine concept 02:17:52 -!- akm [~Alan@c-67-180-16-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:18:02 xinming [~hyy@218.73.140.124] has joined #lisp 02:18:14 well, you start by building your code with higher debugging settings 02:18:17 there's just two problems: no free lisp has a particularly good stepper 02:18:30 two interesting statements. 02:18:32 and use v on the frame 02:18:35 indeed. 02:18:49 so what exactly should I do to higher the debug settings? 02:19:10 prefix compile commands in slime with C-u 02:19:19 C-u C-c C-c or C-u C-c C-k 02:19:27 jsnell: No free lisp, or no free common lisp? (I hear that at least one free scheme has a good stepper.) 02:19:50 and second, apparently it's very hard for people to get used to the idea that stepping forward might move the stepping "point" backward 02:20:22 which is what would naturally happen for something like (foo (bar)), where bar is executed before foo 02:20:24 Yeah, because their step granularity is so atrocious. 02:20:57 if I meant scheme, I would've said "lisp or scheme" ;-) 02:21:09 Fair enough. 02:21:47 jsnell: does slime even have the ability to illustrate this stepping motion you describe? 02:22:10 or is this some fancy gui thing on them fancy ide's ? 02:22:16 Still, the whole "debug story" in SBCL is an embarrassment. 02:22:18 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:22:38 slime and sbcl have a single-stepper, yes 02:23:09 that highlights where it's at? 02:23:17 yes 02:23:49 the problem I have with slime is that when I hit 's', the stack just *changes*. I have no cue about the motion that occurred. I just see a before and an after and sometimes it totally confuses me 02:24:33 -!- aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aquateen] 02:24:43 do you have stepping enabled? 02:25:19 please don't take what I said as a suggestion to actually *use* the stepper 02:26:45 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.124] has joined #lisp 02:29:13 alright. so since I have a captive audience, I might as well ask some questions about debug fu: 02:29:23 when you are dropped into sldb, what is your first instinct? 02:29:33 read the error message 02:29:37 next? 02:29:43 Hit "q". 02:29:47 right 02:29:56 hah. drop out of sldb? 02:30:16 or look at backtrace if i didn't understand the error message 02:30:18 Once we know what the error is and which the most proximate function is, we can usually figure things out from looking at the source code. 02:30:21 I have an impression that was no joke =) 02:31:11 Sometimes it is sufficient to know what you were doing when the error occurred. 02:31:13 alright. here's an example scenario which isn't made up: 02:31:21 error: 1 is not of type list 02:31:25 ok. that's clear 02:31:30 it's also clear that mapc choked. 02:31:31 ok 02:31:36 so how did mapc get 1? 02:31:37 hmm. 02:31:45 I look up one frame? I see line noise. 02:31:54 literally. I do not understand at all what hte frame above is telling me 02:31:57 Where are you calling mapc? 02:32:00 so how would you proceed 02:32:07 oh, well, need more practice reading backtraces :-) 02:32:25 generally, look up the stack until you see *YOUR* code. 02:32:26 What's the next frame that you -do- recognize? 02:32:26 there is a difference between debugging your code and not someone others 02:32:33 s/not// 02:32:43 -!- linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:01 the problem is that there is a back trace vertically where the error has been propagated *through*, but the source of the error is "horizontal", i.e. inside a function somewhere. 02:33:07 Although, really, method frames can be fairly close to line noise. 02:33:18 e.g. baz chokes. baz is called by bar, which is called by foo 02:33:24 ok. I can see the path to foo. 02:33:42 but then, foo has a bunch of stuff going on inside which is entirely within a stack frame 02:34:12 I don't know what state the execution in that frame is - for example: which part of which cond it was at when it dived into bar 02:34:19 *stassats`* stares at the error given by mcclim and doesn't know what to do 02:34:22 and because I can't "navigate" around by stepping, I'm stuck 02:34:30 you compile with higher debug level, and press "v" 02:34:41 ok great. that's good to know 02:35:15 well, you already knew that 15 minutes ago when it was last said 02:35:28 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 02:35:51 tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has joined #lisp 02:36:20 yeah. but hearing it again means that it's not just boiler plate. that most likely it'll increase my chances of finding important clues 02:36:25 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:36:45 Actually trying it a few times might help as well. 02:36:59 Or composing a physical list of things to try when you're in the debugger. 02:37:28 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:37:47 yeah, it's not really that I don't grokk the general process of debugging. I'm just wondering if there are slick kung fu moves that I would never think of looking for unless I already knew about them 02:37:55 I'm hearing that, no, there probably aren't. 02:38:30 (things like dtrace for example, are debug kung fu) 02:38:32 Well, there might be... and one way to look for them is to check the keybindings in sldb (C-h m). 02:38:48 or just h 02:38:55 Yeah, yeah... 02:39:04 See, I didn't know about that one. :-P 02:39:08 yeah, I got the sldb cheat sheet tacked to my wall. 02:39:56 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 02:40:55 Heh. I've just realized that I only really use a debugger when the turnaround on adding FORMAT or printf calls is too high or when the I/O available is abysmal. 02:41:35 that's essentially the same thing I'm doing 02:42:11 which reminds me of a remark Sir. Linus had once made on some forum: he considered printf to be the only valid debugger. Of course, he was talking from a kernel hacking perspective. 02:42:44 so, printk then? 02:42:56 Really, the only debugger worth truly relying on is between your ears. 02:42:57 thats terrible compared to things like dtrace 02:43:20 At the same time, it's the only one that you -have- to rely on. 02:43:23 i guess thats why linux still lacks a powerful tracing framework 02:43:36 xristos: it is, but back then it wasn't. Before dtrace was made oss, there was no real instrumentation tool 02:44:15 all this said, gdb is a tool one can spend an entire life perfecting. 02:44:37 *nyef* finds gdb to be a tool he can quite well do without. 02:44:38 I once had to reverse engineer a project in gdb, and the amount of information you can obtain by even just a dead core dump is astounding. 02:45:10 nyef: heh. it's powerful. whether it suits your needs or not is a different thing. 02:45:37 I once reverse engineered an abandonware architectural cad program and added support for a hardware 3D mouse support. 02:45:38 I've had enough trouble from it over the years that I now consider it to be more trouble than it's worth, and don't even bother installing it. 02:45:46 gdb was like a wizard's wand. 02:45:54 its ok at best, unreliable at worst 02:46:07 but i mainly dabble with it on osx 02:46:27 I'm going to humbly have to disagree with that. 02:46:30 "unreliable"? Say better, "actively hostile to the process you're trying to debug". 02:46:43 gdb has passive mode 02:46:55 Gee, passive hostility is -so- much better. 02:46:59 heh. 02:47:09 passive mode doesn't touch the process. it's truely passive. 02:47:21 if I recall correctly, you don't even need debug priviliedge 02:47:29 Then... what's the point? 02:47:46 diagnostic. Debugging. examining memory. seeing stack activity 02:48:13 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 02:48:29 You need ptrace access in order to read another processes memory last I checked. 02:48:42 from a frozen image, I can deduce pretty much the entire state of the application. unless someone tries to deliberately obfuscate it. but even then, people do competitions to hone those evasion and counter evasion skills. Seriously, gdb fu can be worked on forever 02:48:55 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:35 you can gdb an app with the same uid as yours without requiring root. At least on OSX you can. I don't see why it would be different in linux, but I can't confirm. 02:49:41 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 02:50:03 if you go into active debug mode, then you need root 02:50:08 "... so let's hope gdb on linux x86-64 is up to the standard of gdb on linux x86 as opposed to the less well-supported platforms like, ooh, almost anything else it claims to run on. Anyone reading this whose workday is in large part concerned with gdb on Linux x86 may be forgiven for wondering if I've been drinking. ..." 02:50:08 Sure, but you need to ptrace the process in order to be able to access the process memory space. 02:50:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-188-124.northland.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:50:46 Bah. Even gdb on linux x86 has given me absolute hell trying to debug sbcl. 02:50:55 Shaftoe: i had to use gdb on osx to reverse engineer some kexts and it wasn't pleasant 02:51:09 i'd just fire up vmware and use ida 02:51:10 heh. kernel work never is pleasant =) 02:51:12 nyef: yes, I believe that was part of dan_b's point in the quoted text 02:51:13 Start gdb, set a breakpoint, set the child process running, breakpoint never trips. 02:51:55 nyef: you on osx? 02:51:57 plus the crap i used to get when attaching to a live kernel, can't imagine anyone spending a lot of time with it 02:52:01 Shaftoe: Linux. 02:52:03 terminal -> gdb -> attach pid 02:52:09 i moved to dtrace to finish the job 02:52:11 loading symbols...... 02:52:39 I may be getting an OSX box in the near-to-mid future. If so, I'm installing linux on it. 02:52:52 xristos: yeah, dtrace is magic. It's brilliant 02:52:57 heh 02:53:12 if your enemy can run code on your machine, it's not your machine 02:54:00 no os is rootkit safe. In fact, recent rootkits hack hardware itself. 02:54:40 time to get that amiga1200 out of storage 02:55:05 Heh. And here I was thinking "security through obscurity: write your own OS". 02:55:24 And then I was thinking about a rootkit that could break -any- OS given enough attempts. 02:55:50 yeah. back in the day, when I heard about that hardware hack, I turned red. Now, I just don't store my Evil Plans to Dominate the World (tm) on my computer anymore 02:55:55 (Sure, it's an AI-complete problem, but that shouldn't actually be too much of a limitation.) 02:57:11 well, if you can solve that problem, then you can actually make that plot point in Independence day when the jeff goldbloom puts a virus into the alien mainframe. (sigh) 02:57:25 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:32 ... I thought the aliens were running MacOS? 02:57:33 ^ that sentence is missing a verb or something 02:57:41 ziing 02:58:03 putting code into hardware is harder than it looks, largely due to the fact nobody's running all the same hardware. 02:58:16 even for a general category of machines. 02:58:19 I still say that the last great version of MacOS was System 6.0.7. 02:59:03 Adamant: fair enough, but the point is not to wiretap every human on earth, but rather the one human that is your target. Meaning: if someone who has the resources wants to get in your computer, they probably can. 02:59:09 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.124] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 02:59:21 with a 5$ wrench? 02:59:24 hah 02:59:39 with a 5$ wireless card too =) 02:59:44 sure. but if someone has the resources, they can get around basically any security ever. 02:59:56 yeah, that's what I was getting at. 03:00:22 Okay, I have other stuff to do, and then I need sleep, so I'm going to bow out now. 03:00:23 back to my initial comment: if an attacker can run code on your machine, it's not your machine anymore. 03:00:25 G'night all. 03:00:31 night man 03:00:40 I should follow suit 03:01:38 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@2002:62e2:51c2:0:226:bbff:fe00:80c6] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:02:32 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:59 gigamonk` [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:08 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 03:09:18 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:09:22 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 03:10:33 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BEA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:15:18 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 03:26:37 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:54 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: error] 03:33:54 I've never debugged a program. should I just read gdb manpage? 03:37:10 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:38:55 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:11 felideon [~felideon@adsl-212-180-205.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:54 uouou: you should learn assembly 03:42:16 or whatever language the debugger will show you. 03:42:20 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.155.67] has joined #lisp 03:43:40 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:43:50 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-110-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:50 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-110-101.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:22 benny [~benny@i577A707D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:47:45 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:33 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:51:12 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-itigauntuunxvfbj] has joined #lisp 03:52:42 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:45 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.155.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:54:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fovsoozpokyoobtr] has joined #lisp 03:55:52 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:16 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:11 pragma_ [~pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:39 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest69273 03:59:32 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:01:42 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has joined #lisp 04:02:18 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:43 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:00 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:06 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:47 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:53 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:07:04 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:05 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:00 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:09:18 is it possible to have a macro with &key followed by &body arguments? 04:09:42 e.g. (defmacro foo (bar &key baz) &body body) ? (btw, this doesn't wor) 04:09:44 k 04:10:15 (defmacro foo ((bar &key baz) &body body) ...) 04:10:31 use as (foo (bar :baz t) ...) 04:11:03 alright. that's what I was finding too. was just wondering if there was a more bare syntax. 04:11:04 thanks 04:11:17 np 04:11:22 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-140-131.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:45 as you can probably tell, without that sublist in there, whether :baz should be a keyword arg or be part of body is ambiguous 04:12:38 indeed 04:13:03 hmm 04:13:04 I guess I could 'hack' it into some sort of dsl 04:13:13 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.140.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:13:20 but I won't. 04:13:39 -!- Guest69273 [~pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:13:39 Guest69273 [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 04:13:58 -!- Guest69273 is now known as pragma_ 04:14:09 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:25 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 04:15:33 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-140-131.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:16:02 I don't know if you'd consider (defmacro foo (bar (&key baz) &body body) ...) to be "cleaner", having only the keywords residing in the sublist 04:17:42 well, it's an added parenthesis. 04:17:55 forces me to have (mymacro foo "bar") style calling 04:18:04 makes it (mymacro foo ("bar")) 04:18:19 (mymacro foo (:bar t) ...) (mymacro foo () ...) 04:19:00 poor english denotes little sleep. 04:19:08 heh 04:19:11 maybe I should get to bed already 04:19:50 I've never been afraid of verbosity in pursuit of clarity, just as long as redundancy is limited 04:23:37 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-140-131.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:19 aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:19 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-140-131.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:30:12 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-itigauntuunxvfbj] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:33:08 Shaftoe: sleeping is fun 04:33:34 amn 04:33:37 HAH! 04:33:39 amen 04:33:50 srsly. I should sleep then. 04:33:58 g'night all 04:34:07 good night Shaftoe 04:34:11 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 04:36:57 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:37:51 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:40:02 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:40:59 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 04:43:15 -!- lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:44:06 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-11-98-174.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:51:43 nunb [~nundan@122.163.236.82] has joined #lisp 04:52:48 -!- slyrus___ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:28 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 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07:24:13 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 07:26:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:27:45 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uiftklozkmarjjba] has joined #lisp 07:30:09 -!- yahooooo7 [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:43 akm [~Alan@c-67-180-16-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:14 yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:53 where's a good copy of CLTL online? i've been using the one at OOPWeb.com, but the page on equality predicates is corrupted 07:33:12 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 07:33:59 cltl-1? 07:34:21 uhhhh. 2, i suppose? is there a reason to use 1 instead? 07:34:47 well, you said CLTL, which implicitly means 1 07:34:53 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html 07:35:04 does it? my mistake; not much experience with lisp culture yet 07:35:20 that's like movie sequels! 07:35:38 hah. well i hadn't noticed there were a 1 and 2 yet, see 07:35:56 wait for cltl strikes back 07:36:09 but then you asked, and Lo! the very first line of the page i'm reading says second edition 07:36:56 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-gptttqpyekuckdzo] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:38:20 bloody mcclim 07:40:02 bah. now i don't remember why i needed to know the difference between all these damn eq functions. the hazards of using a reference tool 07:40:27 clhs eq 07:40:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 07:40:37 even easier 07:40:52 equality is serious business. not a trivial problem... 07:41:07 or C-c C-d h in Slime 07:41:19 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:26 ooooh! that is a helpful keystroke! 07:41:51 guaqua: what comes next? brotherhood? 07:43:04 no idea 07:43:37 i don't quite understand the relationship between clhs and cltl2, though. they seem to very similar general structure, but the pages therein differ substantially 07:43:43 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:08 not many fans of the french revolution, apparently 07:44:18 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:44:52 akm: CLHS is more up to date and more reference-like 07:47:52 cltl2 came first, then the ANSI standardization, then the CLHS was made to reflect the ANSI standard 07:49:09 ah, i see 07:49:14 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:50:58 hey guys, if i'm creating multiple threads in a function body, why do i have to do (make-thread (lambda () (make-thread (lambda () ...))) for the next thread in the body to run? 07:51:09 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:16 the first thread is a blocking loop 07:52:00 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.73] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 im assuming this blocking loop should only affect itself, and not the function body its defined in? 07:54:03 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:32 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:56:49 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:50 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 07:59:22 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:22 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:59:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:00:01 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 08:01:49 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:04:45 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:34 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:05:43 good morning 08:06:09 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-193-35.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:06:34 good morning 08:07:14 damned flu *sniffle* 08:08:04 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:36 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:11:39 ITYM"mild cold" 08:11:48 get well soon 08:13:04 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:33 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:13:34 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:15:22 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-193-35.broadband.corbina.ru] 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joined #lisp 08:37:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:40:12 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A9BC.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 xckjas 08:40:52 %RD 08:41:47 hi, ferrets! 08:42:53 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:43:18 that was the white one 08:44:15 -!- akm [~Alan@c-67-180-16-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 08:45:10 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 08:45:18 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:54 mega1 [~quassel@3e70cfc8.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:48:26 vng [~user@118.68.166.88] has joined #lisp 08:51:39 maus [~maus@222.253.98.240] has joined #lisp 08:54:23 Good afternoon! 08:54:39 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:13 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:56:04 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 08:56:34 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 08:57:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:02:47 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.232.247.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:03:03 -!- maus [~maus@222.253.98.240] has left #lisp 09:05:46 nikodemus: got a moment? Adding :timeout to condition-wait needs some discussion 09:06:03 discussion about how to implement it 09:06:14 tcr: i'm not really up to that now 09:06:24 sorry 09:06:25 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 09:07:40 spiff [~wim@d51A4A9BC.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A9BC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:07:55 -!- spiff is now known as wvdschel 09:08:07 It's not about threading issue, but about whether to resolve deadline manually using decode-timeout, or to rely on with-deadline 09:08:23 but I'll try later :-) 09:08:46 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:04 tcr: using DECODE-TIMEOUT, i think 09:10:15 the problem is that the deadline would have to propagate to the get-mutex call in the UWP cleanup clause, too 09:10:18 maus [~maus@222.253.98.240] has joined #lisp 09:10:32 for example due to futex-wait returning EINTR 09:12:18 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:12:33 tcr: i suspect my stance is that condition-variables are fussy low-level things, and their users should make sure that stuff they do while holding the mutex cannot block indefinitely 09:12:46 but i haven't really thought about 09:13:14 gabor and paul may also have strong ideas about this 09:16:18 tcr: mostly because it would be nasty to get a real wakeup and then lose it while waiting to reacquire the mutex 09:16:27 which can happen now, and i don't think it should 09:20:05 Well... I rely on that a lot when writing test cases :-) including the test case for token=NIL 09:20:39 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:20:43 because you can massage two threads, one waiting in a deadline handler in decode-timeout in condition-wait, and the other in the get-mutex in the uwp cleanup clause 09:22:21 I'll try to implement it, then move it on to the mailing list. Though both mega1 and pkhuong seem pretty busy at the moment. 09:23:44 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:07 I'll try to make condition-wait return two values, real wakeup or spurious wakeup (this is reliable on Linux, but can be specified to be not reliable on other platforms), and whether we reaquired the mutex or not 09:24:40 so we move decision on the higher level 09:25:53 tcr: i don't think i like the two-value idea in return 09:26:05 it sounds like a reliability nightmare 09:26:31 but my head is full of snot right now, so anything i say should be take with double-the-usual amount of salt 09:26:57 First do talk later :-) 09:27:00 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:27:05 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:27:24 -!- maus [~maus@222.253.98.240] has left #lisp 09:27:41 maus [~maus@222.253.98.240] has joined #lisp 09:28:53 easyE: Iirc people in here damned the url-as-pathname ideas several times in the past :-) 09:28:54 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:04 Yeah, but Java has a special relation to URLs. 09:30:17 What were the reasons for rejection (by SBCL, I presume)? 09:30:42 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:31:05 Is there something in the SBCL mailing list I should examine or was it on IRC? 09:31:44 I'd hoped someone will chime in with "urls decoded as pathanmes? mwahaha you silly fool" 09:32:14 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:33:18 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:44 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:26 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:37:30 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 09:37:45 easyE: irc logs over the last several years 09:38:06 Right. A long search, but ok. Thanks. 09:38:12 BrokenCog [~d.jordan@122.201.47.214] has joined #lisp 09:38:51 easyE: also, not a single sbcl developer has ever regarded them as an idea worth implementing -- given that there is little reason for more discussion in the context of sbcl 09:39:00 mvilleneuve: I have asked them to clean up the code, so there is no point in your looking at it yet. 09:39:29 if you think they are an idea worth your time, code them up and send a patch and we'll talk about it 09:39:31 For ABCL we do have a specific use: the expression of OSGi bundles as ASDF definitions. 09:39:45 I'm not proposing them for SBCL. 09:39:49 oh, ok 09:39:53 Just trying to learn why they were rejected. 09:39:56 didn't realize that, sorry 09:40:00 NP. 09:40:09 not ever seriously considered is more like it 09:40:22 Thanks. 09:40:48 Is there an easy way to search #lisp IRC logs? 09:41:51 nikodemus pasted "here's what i use to maintain my own copy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96913 09:41:51 http://www.ircbrowse.com/cdates.html?channel=lisp seems to be down. 09:42:29 (also download the gz files for earlier logs from tunes.org) 09:42:35 then it's just a matter of grep :) 09:42:51 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:37 *easyE* spoiled by the internets. 09:43:59 easyE: you can use google and restrict the search to ccl.clozure.com 09:44:46 That's better, thanks! 09:45:18 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46:39 spiaggia: OK 09:47:10 that said I'm not sure whether clozure have the archives over all the years, too. might need to google the tunes site 09:48:31 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:49:11 An idle thought I had the other day: has anyone ever floated the idea of a Common Lisp that was extended with generic functions over everything in COMMON-LISP? 09:49:57 easyE: yes 09:50:30 Was it rejected as well? 09:50:34 i think most of the time the #lisp consensus has been that for CL extending *many* things would be nice, but everything would be kind of insane 09:51:08 Has anyone written down an analysis of what would be reasonable, and what not? 09:51:24 i don't think so 09:51:29 Hmm. Thanks. 09:51:53 for an entirely new lisp dialect the conclusion would probably be different 09:52:14 easyE: just making everything gfs is not the way to do it, you actually have to think of protocols 09:52:38 Like MOP does? Yeah, I could see that. 09:52:41 like a protocol to extend the number tower, Krystof also shortly worked on a protocol for custom random states iirc 09:52:58 for me at least it boils down to not wanting CL:+ to concatenate strings just because package author X decides he likes that -- and poisons my entire image with that 09:53:11 no not necessarily as involved as MOP, more like for example the CLOS initialization protocol 09:53:27 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:16 so radical extensibility of semantics of all symbols is either out, or needs to be restricted somehow -- so that the package author X who wants to concatenate with + can import that facility into his own module 09:55:43 Yeah, I see that. 09:55:45 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:55:49 easyE: For example, just making READ a generic function won't really make the reader extensible 09:56:43 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 you have to split up the READ process in several slightly-lower level gf, and describe their interaction between themselves and in the whole reading process. 09:57:17 that's a protocol 09:57:33 That makes sense, too. 09:59:22 a clojure example Strings can implement a seq protocol like (extend java.lang.String PSeq {:seq somefn-that-returns-a-string-seq}) 09:59:31 When we say "protcol" for CL, we mean something highly informally described. Is there any idea how to make the idea of a protocol more semantically exact? Not sure if this makes sense... 09:59:32 so can a file full of chars 09:59:51 as in canb be seen as a Seq of chars in total 10:00:14 easyE: rajul has some defprotocol stuff which makes protocols first class objects. But yeah a protocol is mostly a written contract for humans 10:00:37 so i think the programmer in designing his serialier thinks about grabbing sequences of chars 10:00:40 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:00:48 the implementation can be written in a defensive way (asserts etc) to try to keep the human from shooting himself into the foot :-) 10:02:12 Clojure has a proposal for a DEFPROTOCOL as well, but it looks to contain a lot less than what we mean by "protocol" in CL 10:02:17 http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Protocols 10:03:23 the narrow scope of it makes one see how easy potentially from a dataview point of view it is.. instead for a metod point of view 10:03:35 metod/method 10:04:32 dataview = per class 10:04:41 dmiles_afk: [lazy] sequence is a protocol in Clojure 10:05:25 sometimes though its nice when classes have overlapping dataveiws.. example is ALIST vs CONS 10:05:50 (to decribe what i mean by dataview in that context) 10:05:59 dmiles_afk: the point is that classes and protocols are orthogonal 10:06:07 concepts 10:06:56 and your dataview concept looks much like a protocol concept 10:07:04 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:07:05 it is 100% :) 10:07:39 i am saying the coolest part.. means protools are implmentable to a tanglable outcome 10:07:52 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:35 that if objects present a normalized set of accessors you dont need to make nth /elt / member defgenric 10:08:54 erm specialized the functions.. just specialize the objects 10:09:22 so clojure totally ignores CL? 10:09:42 erm instead of just specializing every single function in CL .. just specialize every object in CL to make the CL function make sense 10:10:25 so specialize every object in CL so all the CL functions make sense 10:10:57 i dunno is what i am saying is helpfull .. just my theory.. which 90% f the time i expect to be wrong 10:11:54 its easy to implementt objects in CL .. functions are harder 10:11:55 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 10:12:07 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:12:20 i mean to make functions that will meet every consumers need into the far future 10:12:40 dmiles_afk: as has been pointed out, it does not make sense to make all functions generic 10:12:41 JuanDaugherty: Yes  it's a different language. I don't know if "ignores" is the right word. Clojure owes (and admits) plenty to CL. 10:13:01 people do not want CL:+ to work on strings, end of story. 10:13:11 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:14 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:32 if they do they want to string to perfomr a STRING-TO-NUMBER 10:13:43 but not concat! 10:13:54 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-152-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:14:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:14:05 so string needs to play "number" for + 10:14:07 sellout: ah, yes, not something that appeals to me, don't really like java anyway, lisp in java seems doubly ugly 10:14:19 (instead of + playing concat for string) 10:14:26 jdz: good exmaple 10:15:01 Juan: Clojure is more than Lisp in Java at this point. It is really a crucible for language experimentation in Lisp. 10:15:10 dmiles_afk: it is just what you thing what the + on strings should do 10:15:14 think even 10:15:25 easyE, i c 10:15:30 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:15:55 jdz: if you make a object that is a mixin of String and Number.. then thats ok.. but jdz true.. i shouldnt have said the string-to-nmber bit 10:16:45 dmiles_afk: no, the point you raise is a good example of why + should not be generic. 10:16:48 jdz: meanng the dataview of a new class-of 10:17:07 so triply then because I want CL and CLOS for my purposes to be super conservative and only changing insofar as the spec is clarified and narrowed 10:17:20 i want to make numbers that people can do +/-* on that have some string opeerations 10:17:46 (also support string protocol) 10:18:32 which does not make much sense to me, but ymmv 10:18:55 basically you want to pull in a bit of what TCL does 10:20:27 abcl when it starts implm,mneting protocol i hope thats the rought they go 10:21:11 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-pbnvqgdegstxcrrp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:21:19 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-rxyvjlxawjkcsjvm] has joined #lisp 10:21:39 ABCL implementing protoocl? What does this mean? We are trying to be a strict CL at core, with useful extensions (optionally) layered on top. 10:22:46 well i think ABCLs route will be just fine.. i just htink more can be done at object interface implmentaiton 10:23:21 Sure, hopefully using the MOP to extend CLOS, right? 10:23:48 With metaobjects more appropiate to Java. 10:24:02 like if each lisp object will be a jproxy that implments clos classes and or protocols on the jproxy itself 10:24:32 sort if how mozilla implments javascript 10:24:39 if/of 10:25:37 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:25:44 they when they need a new type of thingamajig .. they make a new set of accessors on typical or even do nothing objects 10:26:32 its hard to be very precise in what i am saying 10:27:27 wwill ABCL will end up coding AMOP in its very own meta-interprtor quite possibly by accedent ? 10:29:01 might it end up implemeting mop/clos the way some very first lisps got there? which as i understand is how the AMOP book starts with? (which i havent read) 10:29:11 -!- tompa [~thomas@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:29:16 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:29:29 instead of inventing a new style of implmentaiton 10:29:52 is just fine :) at least it will work! 10:30:22 Well, unless we retrofit PCL or something, we're going to be the first open CL implementation to have a different source of MOP. 10:30:32 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A9BC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 10:30:52 i am saying that CLForJava/Clojure/Beanshell/LarKC/JavaScript decideds on a interface centric way 10:31:11 decided 10:31:36 *easyE* does not follow. 10:31:51 i am only 50% sure that it made it easier 10:31:51 "interface" means a very Java specific thing, right? 10:32:18 welo a VM specific thing.. not java 10:32:25 A "meta-interpreter" for MOP doesn't really exist. 10:33:20 No, "interface" in the JavaVM has a very precise corresponence to the syntax and semantics of "Java the language" 10:33:28 when the object itself advertises a protool.. and the type information is a strapon for us to njoy.. not for hte JVM to need 10:33:34 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 10:34:10 an interface is a protocaol.. nothing more or less.. that java borrowed but so did C# .. a very non java thing 10:34:41 but at least java supports them 10:35:42 value types and refernce types (nullables) java also sup[ports.. and abstract classes.. its a feature.. not created by java.. java just reuses these concepts 10:35:53 When I say "Java interface" I refer to a very specific concept and impleentation. 10:36:02 so the JVM was prematurely optimized to lanuages like java that take advantage of such constructs 10:36:17 Your chicken, my egg. 10:36:19 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 10:36:48 yeah so "java interface" then .. perfect 10:36:49 The JVM was never designed to support anything other than Java the language. 10:37:18 That others bootstrapped on it was an unanticpaiated historical development. 10:37:20 but java was not inveted by java.. it was invented by how programmers liked to do things 10:37:36 One that Microsoft noticed when they designed the CLR> 10:37:37 but java was not invented by java.. it was invented by how programmers liked to do things.. that had nothing to do with java 10:37:59 *easyE* does not parse "java was not invented by java" 10:38:11 meaing java does not efine any language contructs 10:38:22 meaing java does not define any language contructs.. other than some syntax 10:38:45 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:39:04 dmiles_afk: with java, there was no nee to develop a new language 10:39:10 tompa [~thomas@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:10 -!- tompa [~thomas@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:12 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:39:20 Java the language certainly defines langugage constructs. 10:39:30 attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.207.141] has joined #lisp 10:39:34 tompa [~thomas@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:38 Suggestion: "Java" means the language, "JVM" means the virtual machine. 10:39:49 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:54 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:39:55 give me one contruct in java that requires java or understanding java to understand 10:40:12 i think there are non.. what i mean in htat java wasnt designed by java 10:40:30 but by elder gods? 10:40:36 easyE: in that notation java is commonly referred to as the expressivity of the language. Other possible ways to execute that are featherlight java and friends. 10:40:46 *easyE* fins the subtlety of that proposition exceeds his feeble grasp. 10:40:54 correct.. the gods created java for a purpose.. not to sell jjava.. bu t to leverge a set of concepts 10:41:33 java mythology, interesting 10:41:33 dmiles_afk: sounds like pure rubbish to me 10:41:36 and if they decide to implment poo++ they conuld have done that using the same design 10:41:43 dmiles_afk: and for what it's worth, their ideas were rediculously bad 10:42:05 wgl` [~wgl@72.sub-75-207-2.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:12 i guess i dont dislike interfaces or number or strings jut becasues java uses them 10:42:23 buty i think ABCL dislikes interfaces becasue java uses them 10:42:25 For the time, I would argue that they were quite liberating. 10:42:44 Bug ridden C++ implementations were the norm in 1995. 10:43:21 easyE: they were obfuscating imho... if people would've continued to use either that 'high performance' stuff and could compare it to a decent high-level language, they would've chosen better/higher high level languages 10:43:30 Having something with GC, a baked-in threading model, and reasonable object orientation was quite a boon. 10:43:34 now there are a whole bunch of languages, with roughly no purpose 10:43:50 *easyE* laughs. 10:44:11 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:44:14 i dont stop using interface in C# becasue java owned themn first 10:44:24 (has been my point) 10:44:34 "All writers are thieves." 10:44:35 what sun did do, was market Java as if it were something new and better (and one could say that it was better), but they might as well have promoted lisp or a scheme with a fixed API 10:45:34 madnificent and that seems to be an unfortunate lisp problem - marketing/public relations 10:45:35 Promotion of a Scheme with a Algol syntax on top of the S-expr would have been interesting. 10:46:04 Lisp would have been too big to implement. 10:46:28 I don't know, Java is pretty big 10:46:29 why would we want algol syntax 10:46:30 The first public release of the JVM (1.0b2) was quite bare and a minimal effort. 10:46:39 etate: it got that way, certainly. 10:46:40 for intance i think "clojure and java" have about as much to do with "clojure and lisp" 10:46:41 imho, the algol syntax is a lot more complicated 10:46:58 But in 1995 it was being repurposed from a "set top box" OS to the web. 10:47:11 clojure wulkd not run on JVM or java for its first two years.. was .net only 10:47:32 madnificent: agreed, but we know the history of pushing S-expr based syntaxes after the second AI winter in hindsight. 10:47:36 (finally only lately has it worked on java) 10:47:50 kzar [~kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:48:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 10:48:06 dmiles: Clojure was started in 2004? 10:48:16 xinming_ [~hyy@218.73.133.12] has joined #lisp 10:48:16 dmiles_afk: yes, i think because Clojure made some modifications to the syntax 10:48:17 *dmiles_afk* checks the prototype 10:48:27 -!- BrokenCog [~d.jordan@122.201.47.214] has quit [] 10:48:42 e.g: ability to use & destructure on more than just the list was a really nice idea 10:48:56 having the immutable 32arity cons was another nice idea 10:49:08 http://dotlisp.sourceforge.net/dotlisp.htm 10:49:17 something apparently difficult to retrofit 10:49:24 thats the original clojure 10:49:37 *dmiles_afk* getting date .. sec 10:49:51 i know i started using long efore 2004 10:49:55 so, if someone would be so kind to stop this argument and write a decent CL->JavaScript compiler (or better yet, an ECMA script implementation of CL!) 10:49:56 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 10:50:03 2003 it seems. 10:50:32 Well, that explains why Clojure had that incredible richness of the "original" design: it was the re-write! 10:51:00 madnificent: Parenscript doesn't count? 10:51:04 yes many features it lost when it got ported to JVM 10:51:18 easyE: *decent* 10:51:33 Noted. 10:51:37 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.140.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:51:50 easyE: I've started to dislike parenscript more and more... it's fine, but it is way slower to code in than javascript itself... I do want the integration though, so... 10:52:12 Slower to code, 'cuz the REPL isn't there? 10:52:58 -!- adeht [~user@bzq-84-110-224-206.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:53:36 slower to code because things like document.getElementById('foobar').play(); or document.body.innerHTML = "content"; are not the clearest things to write in parenscript 10:54:36 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 10:54:36 Do people write macros in Parenscript for such commonly used idioms? 10:54:56 I do... but it results in a whole lot of macro writing 10:55:13 2003-07-07 18:06:59 UTC 10:55:15 also, it is not clear enough for me to have it right the first time, every time 10:55:31 ok thats the start of i on SF.. man thy mark that hard to find 10:56:00 using parens script to invoke that makes the most sense for durrabilty 10:56:17 to do: document.getElementById('foobar').play(); or document.body.innerHTML = "content"; 10:56:44 it is really really nice to have it built-in in your web-app, it's just a pain to write 10:56:52 Well, is there a "macro sharing" comuninty for Parenscript to help factoring out the reasonable abstractions that work? 10:57:07 what i mean it is easier to maintain huge codebases if in parenscript 10:57:49 ooops i am using parentscript as a made up thing.. its something else i bet 10:57:52 easyE: not that I know of, but feel free to start a project like that 10:58:14 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:25 parenscript is maintained by .NET classes and JRE and all the jar/dll world 10:59:13 wny language that expects a object walk f->a->"blah"->[109]->s->p 10:59:57 ugh... don't want reminders of perl before work 11:00:07 dmiles_afk: what the hell are you spitting out right now? 11:00:28 (dmiles_afk): that's called "bad code" in .NET/JRE world 11:00:33 breaks "Demeter Principle" 11:00:48 ah.. ok 11:01:18 not big deal ... i think everyone has there own ways of doing things 11:01:57 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 11:02:11 my goal was to attempt to see OO design to easyE 11:02:15 sell 11:02:25 but he's not buying 11:02:29 not shopping 11:02:34 Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:03:05 that's not really OO as much as some sort of duck typing 11:03:19 Can I set boldness, size.. when printing a string with 'format'? 11:03:20 Phoodus: well said 11:03:36 with C++-style autoconversions 11:03:36 maus: in mcclim? 11:03:45 (I forget the proper name for that) 11:03:55 Phoodus: iam prposing that MOP/AMOP/OO/CLOS/Whatnot is created via duck typing and walking a object model over such animals 11:04:28 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:04:30 walking over data always sucks 11:04:41 well, walking over heterogeneous data 11:04:43 but its pretty! and look best as s-expressions 11:05:01 (dmiles_afk): example? 11:05:03 and lets OO progarmers in on the action 11:05:04 stassats: can i use it in standard-out? Just print on the screen? And how about in mcclim? 11:05:07 *easyE* fails to understand anything. 11:05:30 (+ 1 1) 11:05:34 to TeMPOraL 11:06:04 (car (cons 1 2)) 11:06:16 thats a object walk to some 11:06:36 1->cons-wth-2->car 11:06:55 or 1->cons-wth[2]->car 11:07:17 your middle term there has a side effect; it's not just a functional visitor reading data 11:07:27 *TeMPOraL* feels like easyE now 11:07:45 hmm, maybe n/m that 11:07:53 I might be feeling like easyE a bit as well :) 11:08:17 1 when consed with 2 retuns a new object that is a cons that has a metd called car 11:08:44 (Phoodus): isn't talking about visitor pattern (at least that's how I understood you) when considering example: (car (cons 1 2)) isn't a bit of overengineering? :D :D 11:08:45 the ducktype 1 can be consed with any oather thing to make a cons 11:08:49 but I wouldn't call a cons-with-2-in-the-cdr operation "walking over 1" 11:09:19 TeMPOraL: if you're going to let your models scale up, you'd better consider them like that ;) 11:09:19 all objects have a method can cons 11:09:21 O_o 11:09:44 all objects have a method called cons 11:09:45 but that "method" doesn't exist "on the object" per se 11:09:59 (dmiles_afk): java-style "no functions except methods of objects" sucks 11:10:09 right it doent have to exist on it... just effectively callable 11:10:13 right, this is sort of like inverse currying 11:10:49 TeMPOraL: thats why there is no reason toe write java.. just lisp 11:11:05 and yeah, smells a lot like Java's & Ecmascript's Object notion 11:11:10 ^^ I don't like Java too much anyway ;) 11:11:20 but i am saying there is no reason to pretend lisp doesnt implement interfaces on objects 11:11:40 just becasue java does 11:12:00 Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.200] has joined #lisp 11:12:05 well, interfaces are mostly theoretical constructs 11:12:10 but say you're going to cons a and b. That'd be something like a->(b->use-as-cdr-then-car)-> result? 11:12:16 right, Java supports them on syntax level 11:12:17 hence the "inverse currying" comment 11:12:34 but for example, C++ had (and popularized!) interfaces 11:12:49 Phoodus: yes 11:12:51 they were just called "abstract classes with only pure-virtual public methods" 11:12:56 having multiple actors involved is why multimethods > "method on an object" 11:13:33 yes, there are examples when multimethods are better 11:13:41 specbot: clim with-text-style 11:13:41 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/11-2.html#_589 11:13:55 maus: for mcclim 11:13:57 ie. collision handling in games sometimes make this situation more obvious 11:13:58 so basically, the parenthetical part of my example would be a "closure accessor method" or something :-? 11:14:13 stassats: thank you! 11:14:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:14:15 Phoodus: bingo 11:14:25 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:14:39 actually, I don't see how this varies from regular currying now that I look at it 11:14:45 when proper collision handler should polymorphicly depend on types of both objects involved in collision - a common problem in C++/Java, described in Meyer's More Effective C++ 11:15:01 (with-text-style (*standard-output* (nil :bold :34)) (format t "HELLO")) 11:15:52 stassats: many thanks! :) 11:16:12 err, and quote the list 11:16:30 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:16:30 TeMPOraL: I've hit that trying to make a ray-based selector using cl-opengl... having one generic INTERSECT-P is nice 11:17:05 stassats: heh "the list" is probably the most ambiguous reference you can give with respect to lisp code ;) 11:17:07 the nice thing is 100s (1000s) of code libs have been written using this design and are leveragable using this pattern 11:17:12 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #lisp 11:17:19 (Phoodus): I thought the same - which list ? :D 11:18:01 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:18:05 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:08 it's pretty obvious to me 11:18:20 there's only one data structure there 11:18:28 which makes them usable from a lisp like abcl... or a non lisp like c++ 11:18:31 oh, to me too. But they're really all just lists when in source form 11:19:20 they are all data and the code at the same time 11:19:28 long live (and stay dead) the Schro:dinger Cat! 11:19:58 the umlaut has fallen off of #\o 11:20:15 ” 11:20:26 *Phoodus* remembers his keyboard alt codes :-P 11:20:39 real men use the compose key. 11:20:46 C-x 8 " o in emacs 11:20:57 compose " o in X 11:21:14 now I wonder if unicode represents "o with doublequote" and "o with umlaut" separately ;) 11:21:30 i don't have no compose 11:21:39 real men google the proper name and then copy-paste umlauts ;) 11:22:22 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 11:22:24 *TeMPOraL* is (un?)fortunately a student and has some labs to attend 11:22:31 cya around ;) 11:23:06 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.232.247.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: be back later .•«UPP»•.] 11:23:58 tom1 [~pierre@212.99.78.123] has joined #lisp 11:28:16 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:29:10 bah, where are his priorities?! ;) 11:33:08 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 11:37:49 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:39:19 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uiftklozkmarjjba] has left #lisp 11:47:04 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 11:48:38 -!- wgl` [~wgl@72.sub-75-207-2.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:55:12 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 11:55:17 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-rxyvjlxawjkcsjvm] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:29 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-pphvrbahbbideqrk] has joined #lisp 12:00:03 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:19 -!- Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:05:23 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 12:06:11 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:07:08 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:07:20 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:07:56 Is it possible to let AllegroServe display the contents of a publish-directory is a sort of autoindex, just as Apache is doing? 12:09:57 AFAIK I don't see options in the publish-* documentation to support the creation of an autoindex holding the links to the file on disk? 12:12:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:59 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A9BC.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:15:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:29 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C45A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:43 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:30:53 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:32:19 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33:33 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:34:20 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 12:34:30 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.163.236.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:35:30 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 12:35:56 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.200] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:37:24 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 12:37:32 any ideas for the sanest way to say "this nested list must contain :a, :b, and :c in there somewhere" 12:39:00 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:39:05 nunb [~nundan@122.161.218.96] has joined #lisp 12:41:12 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-5-60.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:42:04 recursive MEMBER? or (member (flatten your-list))? 12:42:36 yeah, for checking one at a time. I guess I can put member in mapcar 12:42:45 a bit redundant, but concise 12:42:56 (redundant in terms of runtime cost) 12:42:56 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:13 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-3-1.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:47:12 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-193.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:28 Phoodus: subsetp might also work 12:47:59 for checking, i'd just write a recursive function 12:48:20 call it tree-member 12:48:57 I'm rewriting this such that I think I can get around this completely 12:49:11 but yeah subsetp looks most promising 12:50:28 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:03 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:51:18 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 12:53:03 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:21 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:56:52 -!- vng [~user@118.68.166.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:43 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.161.218.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:17 kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111105004.a1.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:46 Is it possible to let AllegroServe display the contents of a publish-directory in a sort of autoindex page, just as in Apache can be done out of the box? 13:02:49 AFAIK I don't see options in the publish-* documentation to support the creation of an autoindex holding the links to the file on disk? 13:03:24 j0be: i don't think there are many aserve users here 13:03:46 nikodemus: ah ok. onlu FOSS? 13:04:08 not only, but i think the few acl users in here don't do web stuff 13:04:16 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has joined #lisp 13:04:33 but i hear franz has great support :) 13:04:36 nunb [~nundan@122.161.37.183] has joined #lisp 13:05:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:06:05 most people here use sbcl, ecl, ccl, clisp, cmucl -- the lispworks and acl users are few and far between 13:06:47 and i'm probably the lonely lone who use SCL from time to time. ;) 13:06:51 Hmm, I can't get cl-png to compile. 13:07:14 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:07:47 hmm, I guess I can, sort of. 13:07:56 *Xach* tries to figure out the problem 13:09:48 checking out the competition? 13:10:22 nikodemus: trying to load roto-mortar 13:11:56 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:12:27 woo hoo 13:14:47 works great 13:16:30 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-pphvrbahbbideqrk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:16:40 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:16:42 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-sayimsvixmumxwqc] has joined #lisp 13:19:16 ls 13:19:20 Joreji [~thomas@79-187.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:20:07 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.161.37.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:47 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 13:27:07 nunb [~nundan@122.161.217.254] has joined #lisp 13:28:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:31:27 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:31:53 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:03 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:31 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 13:42:51 somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:43:53 if someone is interested, a guy is working on a lisp->cuda compiler: http://github.com/angavrilov/cl-gpu 13:44:02 a subset of lisp compiled to graphics cards 13:44:53 -!- tom1 [~pierre@212.99.78.123] has left #lisp 13:46:00 i guess a planet.lisp.org blog post about it would be interesting to many people 13:47:47 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-198-179.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:48:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-198-179.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:42 -!- maus [~maus@222.253.98.240] has left #lisp 13:51:21 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:52:53 attila_lendvai: any sort of blog post would be interesting. 13:52:58 attila_lendvai: it need not even be a blog post. 13:53:26 true. planet.lisp.org is unusually quiet recently 13:54:11 i have many projects i would like to work on, then write about, but i have not found enough time for the work and even less time for the writing 13:54:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:56:00 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:10 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:56:17 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 13:57:11 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:07 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:32 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 14:02:47 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-249-86.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:05 Stugots [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 14:04:12 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:58 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 14:11:42 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:12:15 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 14:13:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:37 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:14:10 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:27 minion: tell me about lisppaste 14:15:28 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:16:19 minion: tell spiaggia about bookmarks 14:16:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``bookmarks''. 14:17:03 Xach: I am showing my students what to do. I know the URL. 14:17:50 /msg minion tell spiaggia about lisppaste 14:17:52 spiaggia: you could also teach your students how to view the topic, which has the url permanently in it. 14:19:37 gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #lisp 14:21:29 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.58.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:40 -!- gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:43 gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 -!- gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:47 gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #lisp 14:22:09 ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:22:11 -!- gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:15 gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #lisp 14:22:15 -!- gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:19 gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #lisp 14:22:19 -!- gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:22 gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #lisp 14:22:24 -!- gess [gess@93.102.67.229.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:23:18 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.115.199.228] has joined #lisp 14:24:54 I suppose I could. 14:25:56 I thought since it was quiet what I did wouldn't inconvenience anyone. 14:26:07 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has joined #lisp 14:27:22 i think you did not; but it would still be nice to teach good practices :) 14:27:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:28:56 (like talking with bots privately if it is not relevant to the current discussion in the channel; which was not the case here, but anyway) 14:30:46 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-154-185.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:31:37 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-53.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:34:01 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:43 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:38:58 pit147 [~pobameme@salle101.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 14:42:18 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:01 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:29 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:52 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:36 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-241-109.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:51:24 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:54:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.207.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:54:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.78] has joined #lisp 14:55:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:56:46 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:57:07 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:05 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 15:00:57 -!- rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:01:25 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:03:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:12:04 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:53 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:13:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:14:30 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.180] has quit [Quit: day is over.] 15:19:57 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:20:46 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:20:54 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111105004.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:21:59 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:56 Wishlist for SBCL: LOOK-AGAIN restart for no-applicable-method errors. 15:26:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:28:54 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:31:13 nyef: that should not be hard at all 15:31:29 Probably easier than USE-VALUE restarts, right? 15:32:17 slime wraps a retry restart around its operations 15:32:26 tcr: Too high-level. 15:32:29 ok 15:32:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111089244.a1.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:46 did you update slime btw? Does it work now? 15:32:56 No, I didn't update slime. 15:33:08 I'm planning to wait on that until early next month. 15:33:15 nyef: i have a patch for you :) 15:33:25 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:32 That was fast. 15:33:52 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:26 stupid freeze :-) 15:35:30 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:36:15 The freeze is, overall, a good thing, even if it is irritating at times. 15:36:38 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nikodemus.git/shortlog/refs/heads/look-again 15:38:02 *Xach* struggles to come up with a sbcl wish to be instantly fulfilled by nikodemus 15:38:38 Mmm... Now it just needs to be run past the arbiters of taste for the restart name. 15:38:44 nikodemus: Thanks. 15:38:45 nikodemus: there's a restart somewhere in the package machinery that says "Leave package alone" but means "Clobber package" in practice 15:38:54 i wish it said the right thing! 15:39:00 *Xach* sits back, waits 15:39:06 and the re-application need to be in tail position 15:41:02 Can this be hot-patched into a running SBCL, or am I looking at a full build cycle to get this going? 15:41:03 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:16 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:41:42 you can hot-patch it 15:41:47 just recompile the call-sites 15:42:16 it might not be there for _everything_, but any gfs you compile afterwards should have it 15:42:21 Which set of call-sites? Some set internal to PCL, or in my own code? 15:42:41 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 15:42:43 for hot-patching, just define an :around method on no-applicable-method 15:43:01 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:43:02 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:43:21 yeah, that's better than using my patch if you don't want to rebuild 15:43:58 Mmm... I'm rather hoping to keep this environment running until the end of the month, -then- do a round of updates. 15:48:37 nikodemus pasted "hotpatch solution" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96920 15:49:15 nikodemus: Cool. 15:49:28 *nyef* is sufficiently unfamiliar with CLOS that he would have had trouble coming up with that. 15:50:00 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:51:35 milanj [~milan@77.46.187.244] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:52:50 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 billy_jone [~jircii@207.74.22.46] has joined #lisp 15:53:07 hello 15:53:22 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-176-146.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:20 Xach: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nikodemus.git/shortlog/refs/heads/pending 15:54:29 anyone else? 15:55:31 nikodemus: isn't that supposed to be cerror? 15:56:09 + (error "Clobber existing package." 15:56:10 + "A package named ~S already exists" name)) 15:56:12 oops, look again 15:56:35 there we go :) 15:56:47 i was first going to make it a restart-case, but decided against it -- obviously didn't undo quite far enough... 15:57:54 any other quick-to-fix irratants? 15:57:54 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:58:25 irritants, even 15:59:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:48 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:04:03 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:06:50 tankrim pasted "looping over class-instance in hash-table, extracting a slot" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96921 16:09:07 tankrim annotated #96921 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96921#1 16:10:43 nikodemus: my hero! 16:12:06 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:12:58 *Xach* looks around for tankrim 16:14:53 ravster [~user@CPE000c41a8878f-CM00195efb5296.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 Hello all. 16:15:02 hello 16:15:15 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111089244.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:02 I want to learn about developing neural nets. I was wondering if anyone had a link to example code. I figure I should start with a simple net that finds a best-fit line (As a linear regression would) since that is something I understand. 16:16:15 -!- billy_jone [~jircii@207.74.22.46] has left #lisp 16:18:37 ravster: http://cliki.net/MGL has the code, but it has no simple example except for tests. 16:18:52 mega1: thanks, I'll have a look at it. 16:19:04 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 16:19:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ce7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:19 -!- jao [~jao@83.50.65.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:18 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:24:34 serve-event haters, look here: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nikodemus.git/shortlog/refs/heads/less-serve-event 16:25:30 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 16:25:45 Hrm... 16:26:08 Has potential, at least. 16:27:03 -!- ravster [~user@CPE000c41a8878f-CM00195efb5296.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:27:07 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:10 Good evening! 16:27:14 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has joined #lisp 16:30:12 nikodemus: serve-fewer-events (: 16:30:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:30:52 florist [shreyas@unaffiliated/florist] has joined #lisp 16:31:10 quite 16:34:46 Hello beach. 16:34:51 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A9BC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 16:37:56 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:38:36 -!- florist [shreyas@unaffiliated/florist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:42:48 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 16:47:18 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.187.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:49:12 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:21 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:50:44 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:51:39 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:13 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.49] has joined #lisp 16:52:24 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-249-86.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:53:58 hm 16:54:24 I have a wish, too, (describe '*foo*) should show global and thread-local value 16:54:57 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 16:55:25 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:47 Further wish: And again in LDB. 16:57:41 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 16:58:04 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 17:00:06 igaray [~igaray@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:00:19 -!- igaray is now known as lordakinator 17:01:31 hm make-thread binds *deadline* but not *deadline-seconds* 17:01:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:00 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02:07 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:02:12 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:24 I don't think it has consequences, but e.g. sub-gc binds both and binding both is less confusing :-) 17:03:11 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:04:14 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:04:15 holycow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 17:07:31 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.161.217.254] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:10:19 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:11:46 nikodemus: why the hatred for serve-event? :'( 17:14:10 hm. good start, but I think going even further would be good: if not serve-events, it should just use normal blocking read/write calls. 17:15:48 etate: recursive event loop considered harmful 17:16:05 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:22 kinda confused by the change though, looks like hes making fd-stream use serve-events rather than doing anything to get rid of it 17:16:35 fd-stream *already* uses serve-event 17:16:49 the change makes it not recursively call other handlers. 17:17:35 recursively call other handlers? now i'm really confused 17:17:46 confusion can lead to hate 17:18:06 when you call: (read-line stream) 17:18:10 it doesn't just block waiting for the line 17:18:22 it also calls any serve-event handlers anyone else has installed any time before 17:18:26 while waiting 17:18:37 Xach: and eventually to the dark side? 17:18:45 foom: is there something i can M-. to see? 17:18:55 i guess read-line :/ 17:18:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-187.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:19:46 etate: it's right there in the patch, fd-streams calls wait-until-fd-usable, which calls serve-event 17:21:31 nikodemus: that seems like a reasonable start, at least. 17:21:38 foom: oooh i see now, all this crazy coloured text is hard to read :> 17:22:31 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 17:22:37 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:23:16 nunb [~nundan@122.161.217.254] has joined #lisp 17:23:41 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 17:24:32 it's not quite yet on the track we talked about in sbcl10, but... something 17:25:28 any of you merkins coming to ELS? 17:25:55 btw the difference between ansi streams and gray streams is that gray streams are not structs or is there a bigger difference that i'm missing? 17:26:05 Hmm..does anyone remember the common lisp library for easy interactions with common unix commands (mkdir, rmdir, etc) that's cross platform compatible? 17:26:40 somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:26:52 minion: osicat 17:26:53 osicat may be what you're looking for 17:26:53 osicat: Operating system interface library mainly for Unix. http://www.cliki.net/osicat 17:27:23 yep perfect, thanks 17:27:26 couldn't remmeber the name 17:28:44 etate: that's the basic idea, yes 17:30:25 is there a reason why ansi streams are kept or is it simply for backwards compatibility? 17:30:47 because making everything gray streams is a) hard and b) likely slower 17:31:39 mega1, pkhuong: here? 17:31:45 yes 17:31:54 although not for long 17:31:57 (Hard, because we need streams in the cold load, and we compile the CLOS support in warm init.) 17:32:08 tcr: re. describe: turns out we don't have a nice interface to tell if the current binding you see is a thread local one or a global one -- and in the first case if there even exist a global binding 17:32:20 right :-) hence my wish 17:32:33 tcr: ? 17:32:44 nikodemus: We don't? 17:32:46 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:32:48 nyef: thats very interesting, thanks 17:33:19 Oh, I guess we wouldn't would we? 17:33:21 mega1: I'll compose a mail regarding some design criteria of condition-wait; do you think you'll be able to reply later today or by tomorrow? 17:33:46 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 17:36:25 tcr: yes 17:36:49 depending on how complicated it'll be 17:36:54 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 17:37:18 not much, it's about api 17:37:29 is: (sb-vm:print-allocated-objects :dynamic) supposed to work? 17:38:36 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:08 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:39:37 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:40:02 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:40:23 adeht [~user@bzq-84-110-123-3.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:00 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:42:27 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:20 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:45:29 porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:25 -!- mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:48:31 porcelina_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 -!- porcelina_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:04 mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:53:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:53:27 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 porcelina_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:02 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:44 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:19 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #lisp 18:02:33 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:10 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:07:04 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-53.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:09:16 -!- porcelina_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:36 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:38 porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:45 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:08 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082D09D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:24 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:58 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082E7F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:15:58 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:16:09 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-221.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:01 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 18:17:50 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f662a33-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:33 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:23:05 good evening, Lispers. 18:23:09 Hello tic. 18:23:28 How's the SVN massaging coming along? (it was you, right?) 18:23:56 I found what I needed to know. 18:24:48 (The function that is giving me problems elsewhere turns out to have been marked DEPRECATED in the current version, due to its complete lack of error-handling.) 18:24:58 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-105.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:25:12 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:25:26 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:25:31 "This is only here so that users have an example to work from as to how to use this library. Error handling is up to them." 18:25:35 Something like that, at least. 18:25:40 Ah. 18:26:02 Well, it -did- answer a few questions I had about failure modes I'd been seeing. 18:27:28 nyef: svn massaging? 18:28:24 froydnj: Trying to check something out from svn, when I don't -like- svn, and don't normally have it installed, and the normal checkout instructions give a checkout from a non-intuitive-to-non-svn-users place. 18:28:41 I see 18:29:03 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-176-146.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:29:12 http://www.secureoutcomes.net/employment.html <-- lispworks hackers wanted 18:29:17 (could also use a webmaster of some sort) 18:29:17 After that experience, I proposed automatic git mirrors of non-git source control repositories on clnet, at least half-seriously. 18:30:23 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:30:29 Hey, is it possible to spawn a second REPL against a connected lisp? My main REPL is busy, and I want to eval a few things... 18:30:35 (In SLIME, of course.) 18:31:18 Xach: too bad the site looks like garbage in ff 18:34:07 looks okay on opera. the problem is, do i really want to be working for a company that basically makes it easier to track people 18:34:19 nyef: the auto git mirror would be kind of neat 18:34:29 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:35:03 Exactly! 18:35:32 "You don't want to use a real source control system? Too bad, we're mirroring your project to one anyway!" 18:36:34 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:39:01 what is the preferred way to do portable socket programming in common lisp? 18:39:03 usocket? 18:39:26 iolib? 18:39:44 silenius [~silenius@g225076157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:59 usocket 18:41:12 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:50 iolib! 18:41:56 *drewc`* offers dissent 18:41:58 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 18:41:59 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 18:42:12 any experiences from Etiquette? 18:42:56 drewc: how is that portable? 18:43:08 tcr: "can be ported" ;) 18:43:39 tcr: "can be copied to a USB flash drive." 18:43:53 and the winner is... nyef! 18:45:17 What's a good name for a keyword argument to condition-wait that steers whether or not the reacquiring phase is interruptable or not? 18:45:23 drewc: With one-package-per-file development, do you have a good story for how to split out a new file when one gets overloaded, preferably without taking down a running system? 18:46:17 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:13 sz0` [~user@94.54.200.109] has joined #lisp 18:47:22 -!- sz0 [~user@94.54.200.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:29 nyef: not really... in fact i've ended up doing a lot of delete-package to get things in line 18:47:35 Oh, ouch. 18:47:41 ya 18:48:24 I've been setting up the new package with an :import-from to make the symbols available, then converting the :import-from to an :export, adding the new package to the :use list of the old one, and then moving the definitions over. 18:48:42 guaqua: cffi :) 18:48:44 The home-package on the symbols gets screwed, but that's about it. 18:48:46 -!- sz0` [~user@94.54.200.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:03 And even that's fixable, really. 18:49:04 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-36-174.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:29 Of course, this relies on explicitly-undefined behavior, but it works in SBCL. 18:50:06 Hmm, I want to pass a param list to a macro like this (item1 item2 item3) but I want item2 to expand to :item2 18:50:27 How can I achieve that >_< keep getting errors when doing :,item2 18:50:32 nyef: patching sbcl to make all this easier has been a thought of mine 18:50:41 wormwood: Have a look at INTERN and SYMBOL-NAME. 18:51:07 drewc: Not at all convinced that SBCL needs patching, more that we need better idioms and tool support. 18:51:23 (And by "tool support" I mean from emacs, not SBCL.) 18:51:34 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661c1e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:38 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:48 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-60-82-254-216-20.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:36 I'm on a system with SBCL and the latest slime 18:53:38 Algid [~coderaven@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 -!- Algid [~coderaven@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:53:46 fatblueduck: life is good. 18:53:52 and for some reason I'm only able to load asdf through sbcl 18:53:56 but not through slime 18:54:03 Xach: almost! 18:54:06 slime requires asdf in the first place? 18:54:27 nyef: does it? 18:54:27 fatblueduck: what makes you think that is the situation? 18:54:33 fatblueduck: What's "load asdf" for you? 18:54:45 because whtn I type (load 'asdf) and press return 18:54:50 slime returns 'nil' 18:54:55 http://github.com/downloads/death/consix/consix-day-6.zip for any windows user feeling like beta-testing :) (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eblKdroQYQc ) 18:55:19 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:55 I meant (require 'asdf) 18:56:48 fatblueduck: In this case, require returns a list of the modules loaded. ASDF is already loaded, thus... 18:56:51 fatblueduck: do you think that is a sign of failure? 18:57:36 Xack: well maybe its a sign of my failure hahaha 18:57:56 'Xach 18:58:20 adeht: Nice video. 18:58:23 arkrost [~aravan@ppp91-122-88-199.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:58:51 adeht: it was pretty tense. i seem to remember the original qix only required you to capture a percentage of the screen, not kill the beast 18:59:04 well, "original" for me means the atari 5200 version. 18:59:18 Heh. "Original" for me means the mac version. 18:59:26 milanj [~milan@77.46.174.51] has joined #lisp 18:59:37 Hi! Does CL support overoading functions by arity? 18:59:51 *Xach* has the 5200 cart and console in an "alf" duffel bag in the garage, should plug it in sometime for CL game research 18:59:57 arkrost: no. 19:00:16 Xach: you complete a level by either reclaiming all the consii :) or by reclaiming at least 90% 19:00:17 arkrost: Not directly, although there are tricks you can play. 19:00:21 currying? 19:00:25 nyef: thanks 19:00:42 adeht: is there / will there be sounds? 19:01:08 Xach: nope.. I usually play games w/ my fav music anyway 19:01:34 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.89] has joined #lisp 19:02:49 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has left #lisp 19:04:05 -!- arkrost [~aravan@ppp91-122-88-199.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 19:04:32 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 19:04:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:04:32 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:05:08 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:12 the thing is, you want to maximize your score, and reclaiming a consix will give you 10% of your current score.. so it's a good idea to claim some cells first 19:06:42 you also get a bonus life every 150,000 points.. 19:07:19 (which works ok because there are only 4 levels atm) 19:07:42 Xack: I use your zpng to make this sinewave http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/287/testwave1.png 19:07:51 'Xach 19:07:55 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:08:26 -!- Stugots [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:30 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:08:30 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 19:08:36 adeht: fyi, "buildapp --asdf-path ~/src/clbuild/systems/ --load-system consix --output consix --entry consix:game" worked well 19:08:40 adeht: but i keep getting this: 19:08:42 freeglut (SBCL): font 0xf378de00 not found 19:09:08 adeht: and it took me 45 seconds to figure out space lets you go into empty space 19:09:20 fatblueduck: cool 19:09:44 http://xach.com/tmp/stripey2.png is something i was toying with in vecto 19:09:57 it was cooler in my head than in a PNG, though. no wigflip toy from that. 19:09:59 Xach: look at the save-executable function (for windows).. it makes sure glut is initialized 19:10:50 hrm deadlines trump without-interrupts 19:10:55 adeht: ah 19:11:36 Xach: I guess I should write a short note about playing it on the wiki 19:12:06 tcr: That's not good. 19:12:29 yes and no :-/ 19:14:57 I hate this interrupting business, I should never have looked at it 19:15:58 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:12 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:17 adeht: i used your save-executable but it didn't help with the font issue 19:17:30 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 19:18:22 hmm, i never had a problem with towers... 19:18:25 *Xach* wonders what he's doing wrong 19:20:23 nyef: http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-mailbox/blob/master/sb-mailbox.lisp 19:20:49 hm sorry 19:21:07 I wanted to use this as a case of where deadlines-trumping-w/o-interrupts is a good thing 19:21:24 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:33 but my memory betrayed me, I didn't remember the explicit allow-with-interrupts around wait-on-semaphore 19:21:40 man reading genesis.lisp is depressing 19:22:54 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@81.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:20 etate: How so? 19:24:40 Aside from the whole "fop-maybe-cold-load / fop-warm-load" thing? 19:25:03 (One of these days I should settle in to deal with that...) 19:25:08 nyef: well i'm only about 7% of the way through :P 19:25:20 Okay, it -is- a bit on the long side. 19:25:28 the portability stuff is kind of sad 19:25:45 1024 sized arrays in ansi cl ? eee 19:26:00 Heh. The lower bound for the upper bound for the size of an array being 1023 or 1024? Yeah, that's fun. 19:26:06 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8711.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:07 Xach: I remember something like this problem.. cl-opengl's fonts.lisp gets pointers to the fonts at load-time.. maybe before freeglut gets loaded? 19:27:15 nyef: also the "lets hope no one wants a 128-bit" SBCL comment 19:27:23 Heh. 19:27:31 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:43 It'll happen one day, I'm sure. 19:28:04 nyef: the comments in this file are great though, i may actually understand some of it at some point 19:28:18 *nyef* laughs. 19:28:44 also the WHN guy has an artistic tongue 19:28:49 The basic idea is that it's simulating a heap image, and LOADing stuff into it. 19:29:35 oh right, i was under the impression this is where the runtime.h file was generated 19:30:19 It's not. runtime.h is actually a static file. 19:30:33 However, this is where genesis/*.h is generated. 19:30:38 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:31:00 And sbcl.h is generated by the makefile. 19:32:10 so this simulation of a heap gets created in a lisp, and loads stuff, the stuff thats needed in the next step i take it? 19:32:24 jao [~jao@83.50.65.250] has joined #lisp 19:32:32 i noticed that there was a lot of "tool" loading in the previous file i was browsing (i'm trying to look at the code from the start) 19:33:09 Well, once the various cross-compiled fasls are loaded it then writes out cold-sbcl.core, which is then started by a freshly-built sbcl runtime. 19:34:04 oh i see, and this cold-sbcl is the bare essentials ? 19:34:09 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:22 It's a little more than the bare necessities, but not by much. 19:34:43 But it's more an... embryo than a working lisp system. 19:35:04 For example, while it has symbols, it has no packages. 19:35:13 Stuff like that. 19:35:28 is it useful to build a version sbcl that only includes this minimal environment? 19:35:38 maybe it would help in seeing whats been bolted on top and how 19:35:42 Useful in what sense? 19:36:32 in the sense that with this level of minimalism, maybe it would give insight into how the rest of the system was built ontop of these primitives 19:36:46 Mmm... Probably not. 19:37:19 *etate* must stop saying "on top of" rather than "next to" 19:37:43 If you want to see how it gets from a cold-core to something that can actually function at least minimally, it can be instructive to look at what goes on in !COLD-INIT. 19:38:24 "On top of" is fine in that sentence. 19:39:25 so with just cold-sbcl the system doesn't function adequately? 19:39:39 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:39:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:39:41 i don't consider things like packages particularly necessary in order to function 19:40:27 Well, cold-sbcl.core, when it starts, doesn't even have enough marbles to run the reader, though that doesn't last long. 19:41:00 All of !cold-init is basically a mad scramble to get stuff initialized before it gets used for something or other. 19:41:26 oh so the reader gets bootstrapped in !cold-init? 19:41:50 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:39 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 19:42:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:42:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:43:01 *etate* tries to find !cold-init 19:43:08 src/code/cold-init.lisp. 19:43:40 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:43:45 The readtable is set up as one of the last steps before the first GC. 19:44:03 Having 7 cores idle while one's building sbcl is... unsatisfactory :-) 19:44:23 tcr: Feel free to parallelize the build, then. :-P 19:44:28 hmm theres also a folder there called "cold", are they used by cold-init or ? 19:44:50 haven't the ITA people done work on parallelizing Lisp building? 19:44:53 etate: src/cold/ is build utilities. 19:45:46 tcr: Why? Presumably, most people don't do that. 19:45:55 functions preceded by / are uber primitives? 19:46:01 [and good evening everyone] 19:46:06 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:13 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:36 etate: sortof. they're more for producing debugging info. 19:46:40 Hello beach. 19:46:52 beach: I'd think that whatever most people do is mostly I/o bound anyway 19:46:52 Hey nyef, what's up? 19:47:27 Not much. Explaining the SBCL build to etate, a little hacking away on a sort-of-game-thing. 19:47:27 tcr: That might be. If you can prove it, publish it. 19:48:38 beach: Easy to prove. "Most people do word processing, word processing is mostly user-input-bound, thus I/O bound. Q.E.D." 19:48:45 so cold-init occurs with some symbols that it gets from genesis, and then it uninterns all of the symbols it uses before freezing the system, so this cold-init must add the necessary symbols for a minimal sbcl ? 19:48:46 nyef: I read your rants about debuggers, and I was not happy. You sound like a victime of bad environments. 19:48:49 I'm pretty sure there are papers studying what people use computers for personal use. IM and porn, or something. 19:49:00 beach: Substitute web browsing for word processing as needed. 19:49:03 IM, IRC, RedTube. 19:49:33 beach: Yes, but said bad environments are gdb on linux and SBCL! 19:49:47 my day-to-day work is certainly i/o-bound. grepping through files, moving them around, starting apps, occasionally compiling. 19:50:09 beach: And said -worse- environment is a blasted closed-source commercial CRM system. 19:50:18 *etate* likes the opendylan debugger idea 19:50:20 nyef: I know. But instead of giving up, we might try to change things. 19:51:21 I'm not even going to dispute that. I've got a small stack of patches against SBCL's LDB that need cleanup and committing, and another stack of change ideas that need figuring out. 19:52:10 Great! That'll keep people busy for a while! 19:52:21 I've got some proof-of-concept work done for an alternative debugging system for SBCL, and so it goes. 19:53:17 Still, much of the time, FORMAT/printf and the-stuff-between-the-ears is adequate. 19:53:28 nyef: where's your debugger rant? 19:53:44 *froydnj* just blogged about positive experiences with debuggers 19:53:45 froydnj: Here, within the past day or so. 19:53:59 ah, ok. I haven't been keeping up with scrollback 19:56:40 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:19 attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.207.141] has joined #lisp 19:59:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:04 astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 20:01:48 froydnj: You don't say in what way you used the debugger 20:01:59 just to inspect data at run-time? single stepping? 20:03:05 oh well you do mention it in that previous paragraph, god I'm sleepy :-) 20:04:24 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:05:02 is a descriptors high and low fields what a cons is constructed from? 20:05:25 etate: No, a descriptor represents a single word in memory, typically a boxed word. 20:05:52 etate: So a cons would be constructed from two descriptors. 20:06:25 nyef: ah i see, and a gspace is a page or ? 20:06:41 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:54 It's a "heap space". 20:07:09 Basically, there's one for read-only-space, one for static-space, and one for dynamic-space. 20:07:38 porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:53 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 20:08:08 whats the difference between the static and read-only? 20:08:33 static doesn't move, but is r/w? 20:08:55 I think it's that read-only space doesn't get scanned by the GC? 20:09:06 Not sure. 20:09:41 i read somewhere that structs could be allocated in read-only space, and thus wouldn't be scanned by the GC 20:09:54 however i haven't read anything about static space 20:10:51 Mmm... And somehow the idiom got established of allocating a vector in static space, filling it with machine code, and getting a SAP to within the vector data space to use as an alien function pointer. 20:11:06 Which is going to cause... problems... one of these days. 20:11:59 eeeh, dangling pointers? 20:12:02 pferor [~user@72.Red-81-33-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:05 hello! 20:12:18 No, not dangling pointers, as the vectors can't move, just... 20:12:45 They aren't in code-objects, and there's no debug-info associated, which is going to end up meaning no backtrace frame information either. 20:12:55 Hello pferor. 20:13:57 nyef: what do you mean by code-objects? 20:14:26 nyef: better idea for callbacks welcome, I suppose 20:15:13 etate: Actually, it's "code-component" in src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp. 20:15:25 froydnj: At the very least, do them up like the assembly-routines. 20:15:54 (Oh, and read-only-space isn't write-protected...) 20:16:03 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:16:15 hm, google shows me a sponsored link to "www.sbcl.org" 20:16:32 froydnj: And, for even more cleverness, you can associate a debug-fun with the code-component to get actual names associated with them. 20:17:10 edi_99 [~tadej@BSN-143-113-231.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:31 nyef: this is a truly awesome file, thanks 20:17:32 *nyef* would like to see this for assembly-routines as well, but hasn't settled in to try and figure out how to cons up a debug-fun to dump in a cold-fasl. 20:17:41 etate: early-objdef is another fun one. 20:18:14 man this is fun :) 20:18:26 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-66-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:18:38 i'm half tempted to just start changing arbitrary things and see what happens :/ 20:19:12 etate: Need to do a full build if you tweak that file. 20:19:55 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: be back later .•«UPP»•.] 20:20:02 nyef: by full build you mean "sh make.sh" ? (witness naivety at its best) 20:20:08 Yes. 20:20:22 Well, make.sh is chmod +x anyway, but same idea. 20:20:43 oh, i was expecting something more complicated to warrant the "full" preceding build :) 20:20:48 and ./clean.sh wouldn't hurt 20:21:17 etate: Not complicated, just time-consuming. Means you can't hot-patch a running instance, and you can't use slam.sh. 20:22:11 spiff [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:22:30 nyef: are there many parts that can't be hot patched or is there some sign i can see in files that need to be fully rebuilt if modified? 20:22:30 froydnj: Imagine seeing (ASSEMBLY-FUNCTION THROW) instead of "No debug information for frame" when you throw to a non-existent tag? 20:23:07 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:23:53 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:24:25 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:25 etate: There's no real documentation on it, the idea of what can and can't be hot-patched or slammed is something that you derive from the change you want to make and your model of how the build process works. 20:24:37 etate: Which means that it's something you start to learn over time. 20:24:38 -!- spiff is now known as wvdschel 20:24:55 nyef: btw what is slam.sh? 20:25:00 Have a look. 20:25:27 oh yeah, pretty clear from the file really :) 20:25:39 You need to build with an after-xc core in order to use it, but it can be pretty handy. 20:26:56 i think i'll look at slam once i get bored of waiting for sbcl to build when i get stuck in a low level error that is fiddly to fix 20:26:58 maden [~maden@dsl-157-111.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 20:27:32 on my machine the sbcl build process takes a minute or two 20:27:33 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 20:28:10 wow, what kind of machine do you have? 20:28:17 Takes mine 15-20 minutes or more. 20:28:25 wow really 20:28:56 my machine is intel core duo t5900, 4gb mem 20:28:58 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:28:59 I've taken to enhancing slam to be a bit more useful for certain operations. 20:29:20 make.sh takes ~7 minutes on my Q8400 20:29:45 hmm, really? 20:29:49 (Oh, it's crashing here, I need a trace-file for src/code/whatever...) 20:29:53 maybe my concept of time is warped 20:30:22 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:30:25 too bad sbcl can't build in parallel 20:30:27 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:27 So instead of doing a full build, I fixed slam.sh to re-load build-order.lisp-expr and rebuild anything whose flags changed. 20:30:37 stassats: Didn't we have that conversation earlier? 20:32:18 i'm sure we did 20:32:20 *froydnj* wonders how many people run sbcl on non-SSE2 processors 20:32:38 Is the Atom N450 SSE2? 20:32:47 (Probably is.) 20:33:33 can run cpuinfo on the machine to find out if thats your machine 20:33:36 think so. 20:34:22 it has SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3 20:34:46 (Yay for 64-bit netbooks!) 20:36:26 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.10.176] has joined #lisp 20:36:34 but the screens are sooo small 20:36:43 So? 20:37:00 Worst comes to worst, they have a VGA port. 20:37:29 yeah but then you need an extra monitor, which is expensive 20:37:48 and are you sure the port is vga? 20:38:00 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:38:16 cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:22 15-pin, female, D-sub, will drive an external monitor somewhat north of 1280x1024? Yup. 20:38:47 well, if you're happy with it, so am i :) 20:38:58 i personally find small screens offensive to the eyes 20:39:00 Only problem is the $%$#@ DRIVERS. 20:39:20 even with the ubuntu netbook remix editions they do these days? 20:39:28 etate: because of small fonts? 20:39:31 Dunno, I'm running debian. 20:40:04 80 columns and 40 lines is enough for every 20:40:05 Mostly debian lenny, some debian squeeze, and linux 2.6.33. 20:40:34 stassats: its actually more the screen space that bothers me 20:41:04 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 20:41:41 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:42:19 nyef: not sure how similar the drivers are on the two platforms, but since the chicken came from the egg, i assume the chicken helped the egg also evolve 20:42:51 altruism is supposed to be a human trait after all 20:42:57 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:28 i think there is some major differences in the hals of both distros though 20:43:59 for one thing i've never had any driver trouble on ubuntu 20:44:08 *etate* lies 20:44:30 Yeah, the actual driver problem I have is that if I enable the external monitor port then I'm headed for an X server crash, followed by a system lockup the next time the X server crashes. 20:44:32 i just buy hardware which i know works 20:45:07 stassats: just please don't buy NVIDIA if you're on KDE err 20:45:28 good thing i'm not on KDE 20:45:30 Actually, does anyone here know how to eliminate the 1.5 second or so delay when watching /dev/video0 on mplayer? 20:46:30 *nyef* was looking forward to nouveau actually working -well-, and then his computer died and he ended up with an intel system instead of an nVidia system. 20:46:54 intel isn't supposed to be so bad these days 20:47:17 esp in notebooks with low power consumption etc 20:47:34 It seems decent, except for the stability problems I've been having with the external monitor port. For which I blame having drivers older than the chipset. 20:47:58 *stassats* bought nvidia because of the video decoding acceleration, so no nouveau for a while 20:48:02 haha, well you know you can always look at the driver code, its all open source! :) 20:48:29 Sure I can. But I don't need to yet. 20:48:59 would have been nice if nouveau supported 3d acceleration at the very least 20:49:03 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:49:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:41 from what i read, and i'm probably mistaken, it seems its meant for 2d graphics acceleration 20:49:43 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:18 I think it's more that they're using Gallium, which apparently hasn't landed yet? 20:50:23 Something like that. 20:50:39 -!- pit147 [~pobameme@salle101.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:51:09 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 20:51:23 hmm interesting 20:52:08 anyway me tired, off to bed, g'night all 20:52:22 etate: sleep well. 20:52:35 nyef: thanks for the help btw :) 20:52:45 No problem. 20:53:52 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 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[unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Good bye] 21:50:39 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:12 -!- X-Scale [email@89.180.203.138] has left #lisp 21:51:20 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:24 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:40 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:53:12 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:53:59 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-91-197.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 21:54:07 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-sayimsvixmumxwqc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:13 hi people 21:54:19 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-cdukqqqtwjqxkuip] has joined #lisp 21:54:56 Hello nikodemus. 21:54:58 hi, nikodemus 21:55:33 *stassats* can't find a way to scoll a scroll-bar in clim 21:56:03 anything exciting happening? 21:56:34 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:57:33 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:57:36 On my front, http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/lgdc2010/dummy-combat.png 21:58:12 spiff [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:58:27 good thing it's not a cube 21:58:33 (It's sufficiently much of a mockup that the actual text is completely hardcoded.) 21:59:39 ooh, games! 21:59:48 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:59:59 Still, it's kindof fun messing with this stuff. 22:00:22 you should really make your game run on your pure-iron sbcl -- think of the purity points! 22:00:40 Hah. 22:00:55 That'd take a bit of doing. 22:01:21 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:01:25 -!- spiff is now known as wvdschel 22:01:55 And it's not like a LispOS is good for much beyond hack value anyway. 22:02:53 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-141-155-163-49.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:26 *stassats* added mcclim GUI to his movie-information-system 22:03:45 there are *other* things besides hack value that matter? /me is shocked 22:04:39 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:04:55 ephcon [~ephcon@wireless-52.subnet-229.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 22:05:15 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.169] has joined #lisp 22:05:43 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-36-174.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:07:49 nikodemus: Despite the explicit allow-with-interrupts around the decode-timeout in condition-wait indicates otherwise, is it a design decision that deadlines trump without-interrupts? 22:07:54 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-31-64.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:03 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:09 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-141-155-163-49.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:31 The thought of -anything- trumping without-interrupts gives me "the screaming heebie-jeebies". 22:11:39 -!- astoon [~astoon@80.78.109.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:12:45 deadlines aren't interrupt 22:12:50 interrupts, even 22:13:23 -!- silenius [~silenius@g225076157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:30 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:13:31 Yeah, but without-interrupts is given to mean "atomic section, modulo garbage collection", which isn't really compatible with the notion of a deadline timeout. 22:14:00 hum 22:14:29 How was this expected to work in PAIP? (progv '(?op ?x ?y ?z) '(+ 3 4 7) (eval (eql (?op ?x ?y) ?z))) 22:14:40 was he using a different flavor of lisp? 22:15:40 bytecolor: Something seems vaguely wrong with that code fragment... As if it's missing a quote and possibly a funcall. 22:16:08 nyef: nod (funcall ?op ?x ?y) works fine, but that's not how it's coded in the book 22:16:26 Still missing a quote. 22:16:32 (What's the context, anyway?) 22:16:45 oh, on the arg to eval, yes, *my* typo ;) 22:17:04 nyef: pattern matching 22:17:09 And have you checked to see if you can find errata online? 22:17:17 hrm... 22:18:07 muahah, it's the first entry in the errata, drrrr 22:19:15 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:23 timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:36 thanks for the common-sense-slap 22:20:47 No problem. 22:21:39 (I hate it when I can find evidence that an errata for a particular edition of a book -used- to be available online, but can't be found anymore.) 22:21:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:02 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316074819]] 22:22:45 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:45 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:22:45 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:29:06 wgl` [~wgl@63.sub-75-205-23.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:43 konr [~konrad@187.106.50.112] has joined #lisp 22:34:30 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:36:43 -!- pferor [~user@72.Red-81-33-42.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: !] 22:37:12 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:38:10 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:08 hi Fare 22:39:32 hi 22:39:36 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:02 huh, i thought our stdin and stdout were bivalent, but that doesn't appear to be the case 22:40:33 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@wireless-52.subnet-229.amherst.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:41:10 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.146.60.7.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 Hello Fare. 22:45:02 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 22:46:04 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8711.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:46:56 _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-zqjxpxozevndjfop] has joined #lisp 22:48:25 -!- aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aquateen] 22:48:47 fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:12 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:37 -!- benny [~benny@i577A707D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:05 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:08 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.222] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:01:00 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@adsl-89-132-54-34.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:01:16 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:43 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661c1e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 23:04:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.207.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:07:54 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 23:08:24 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-16.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:13:33 penny [~penny@g227169079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:15:06 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:22:21 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:25:22 hum. slime has recently begun to fontify the compilation buffer. this takes forever, and kinda ruins the fun of pressing C-c C-c over a defvar form. 23:25:29 how can I turn this off? 23:25:45 (it's almost as if sbcl's compiler suddenly is too fast (-;) 23:25:58 SBCL returns home: http://memory.psy.cmu.edu/Lisp.php (old, but new to me) 23:26:20 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:50 -!- _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-zqjxpxozevndjfop] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:27:59 antifuchs: try (remove-hook 'slime-compilation-finished-hook 'slime-maybe-show-compilation-log) 23:28:31 stassats: I found a message about turning off the progress message, which might be helpful too 23:28:49 doesn't maybe-show-compilation-log display warnings and such? 23:30:12 are you using remote swank and tramp? 23:30:24 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70cfc8.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:30:47 sometimes, yes 23:30:53 konr1 [~konrad@187.106.50.112] has joined #lisp 23:31:08 hm, actually, at least 50% of my time (: 23:31:10 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.160] has joined #lisp 23:31:14 if after removing that hook it's still slow, then the issue is with compiler notes highlighting 23:31:47 actually, turning off the progress display made things much faster. 23:31:59 seems aquamacs is very slow in updating the message area 23:32:45 recently the similar issue was reported with aquamacs too 23:32:55 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:33:38 alright. (setq font-lock-verbose nil) is what fixed things for me. 23:33:55 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:34:09 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.50.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:10 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:35:24 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 23:38:01 -!- wgl` [~wgl@63.sub-75-205-23.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:38:13 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:39 aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:25 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:43:58 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:46:16 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46:45 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:50:14 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:50:34 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-cdukqqqtwjqxkuip] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:41 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:50:50 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ntonlhqkgscqjbxd] has joined #lisp 23:51:40 -!- konr1 [~konrad@187.106.50.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:53:44 c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:13 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:25 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:56:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:02 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:59:06 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]