00:03:26 pjb`, why'd customers be negatively (I assume) affected? 00:03:39 Possibly on performance. 00:04:02 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:04:08 CLOS would be competing against specialized IEEE-754 hardware. 00:04:24 there is no CLOS-specialized hardware? 00:04:29 Well, it'd be a sealed class, no? 00:04:31 "Oh, look, infinite-precision floats... Too bad they're slow as hell." 00:04:43 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:05 Integer division can already lose against floaty division, you want to put bignum division against floaty division? 00:05:17 Well if you mean that arithmetic operations still go thru the FPU, and that the defclass is used only to destructure the float, ok, it would do. 00:05:30 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.248.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:05:52 Ah, inference of whether the slot values fit the hardware.. kinda flofixnum. 00:06:16 *pjb`* is going to shut down himself now. 00:06:18 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:18 Hah! No, I was thinking of using lisp integers to simulate infinite-precision floats. 00:06:37 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 00:06:55 Well, clisp has long-floats, of which you can dynamically set the precision. 00:07:33 Xach_ [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:15 Kinda asymmetric, integer complex numbers with some added (nan, inf, zero) interpretations. 00:08:18 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:08:59 hmm, not quite that simple, the mantissa extends into the order.. 00:09:34 And the sign is only in one component. 00:11:10 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:11:29 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:13:04 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:13:10 mooglenorph [~marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:19 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:11 ... Typical. A desktop machine so old as to be P4-based with 512 megs of RAM (back when that was a decent amount of RAM), and the video inputs aren't ls 00:14:14 Er.. 00:14:39 aren't supported under debian stable. 00:16:16 *stassats`* recently added more memory to p4-based 512M RAM machine, because it was painful to use 00:16:56 Yeah, really, this thing needs maxing out. 00:17:23 So I have a struct with an array of arrays inside it, I would like to effiecntly and destructively modify the elements of one of the nested arrays. I think (let ((inner-array (aref (struct-outer-array struct) i)) doesn't accomplish this, ie, it makes a copy and my changes aren't reflected in the struct. Am I wrong? 00:17:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:17:34 Unfortunately, I think the only other source of compatible memory has 256megs in a single slot, and I should be keeping them paired. 00:17:37 i wonder how could i get away with a slower cpu and 256M just three years ago 00:18:02 mooglenorph: you are super-wrong. 00:18:05 Well, the first part of how you could get away with it was a leaner UI. 00:18:11 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 00:18:30 Xach: that's good, I think I want to be wrong in this instance. how do I become right? 00:19:39 mooglenorph: learn the semantics of CL. 00:20:07 mooglenorph: it's not all that easy to accidentally create a copy of a mutable bit of data. 00:20:16 mooglenorph: it's easy to make a binding to it 00:20:35 Xach: how? clhs let just says it creates a binding to the value. a binding is a reference, not a copy? 00:20:47 nyef: i blame perception 00:21:03 stassats`: Only to a degree, but yes. 00:21:06 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:07 mooglenorph: try reading an introductory text. the clhs is a reference but doesn't go out of its way to teach. 00:21:55 stassats`: Imagine running windows 3.1 on a modern machine, though? Ugly as sin, but you could run it faster than you can respond on a single core with one pipeline tied behind its back. 00:23:46 i can imagine running without X 00:24:13 Mmm... And so much of what's slow in a modern system is UI. 00:24:29 (And so much of what's -broken- in a modern system is UI.) 00:24:36 *nyef* glares at his bluetooth mouse. 00:25:10 And, increasingly, javascript. 00:25:11 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:25:19 *stassats`* glares at Emacs modernish UI 00:25:22 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:44 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 00:25:49 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:07 GPU-based acceleration of javascript is a telling thing. 00:26:19 deepfire: what does it tell? 00:26:27 I'm not sure for who or what, though :P 00:27:11 if it hasn't even been tried yet and that's just a witticism, then bravo 00:27:24 i think i could live with it all if we could just sort of erase flash from the reality of the world overnight. 00:27:46 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:51 Fade: you can do that 00:27:58 because I certainly believed that both Javascript optimizers and GPU fanatics would try that :P 00:28:31 Adamant, IE9 does the GPU JS thing.. 00:28:32 stassats`: oh, as a linux/ppc user I have done that, but the resto f the world hasn't agreed to come along. 00:28:45 deepfire: lol wow. 00:28:59 Fade: well, neither do they believe in Lisp 00:29:48 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:30:07 Fade: there still isn't a real replacement for Flash for it's original purpose. For just serving web videos, though, there is less and less excuse to only have Flash. 00:30:16 Compiler tech goes deeper into our lives, and beyond developer machines. 00:30:28 GPU drivers, now browsers.. 00:30:34 -!- twopoint718 [~chris@adsl-76-233-147-211.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:30:57 finally, they will catch up with Lisp 00:31:08 what is lisp? 00:31:21 certainly you can't code shaders in CL 00:31:50 you can in JS? 00:32:16 oh, the "they" in your phrase was ambiguous 00:32:45 they = They = Them = THEM = those big ants in the desert 00:33:07 bielefeldians? 00:33:09 we're really derailed here. 00:34:18 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-1-157.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:36:13 deepfire: I thought that's what OpenCL was for? 00:36:39 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-68-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:38:09 nyef, MS invented a certain 'directcomputing' API to cover these bases, in its adamant NIH style. 00:39:02 i thought nyef was talking about coding shaders in CL 00:39:06 I am not with the NIH, nor does MS possess my style 00:40:51 -!- p8m_ is now known as p8m 00:41:19 Actually, I just noticed some mention of shaders and opengl 2.x today, and was a little curious as to whether they were available in the GLX wire protocol. 00:42:00 stassats`, I'm not at all sure how shaders are related to OpenCL, to be honest 00:42:07 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:28 Except that they use the same machine to run on, that is. 00:44:12 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:45:03 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-509.qas-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:47:32 OpenCL is a language+runtime designed to run well on GPUs and other massively parallel hardware; shaders are programs described in a differents, highly-specialised shader language. 00:50:53 Anyway, BitC looks like be best stab of higher-order languages into the performance territory. 00:53:49 It has immutability-by-default, pervasive type/mutability inference, highly-controlled data structures, both tagged and not. 00:54:21 But also, notably, type classes. 00:55:10 Adamant: MS definitely possesses your style in terms of markup syntax... 00:57:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:59:14 rahul: markup syntax and Microsoft? The only style they like is binary 00:59:21 :P 00:59:36 well, ooxml, but that's history 00:59:57 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:00:41 and a reaction anyway, not something they'd come up with independently, AIUI 01:00:46 it's not so much what they do as what they like :P 01:00:57 yeah 01:02:59 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:03:33 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 01:04:20 JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:51 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:30 In theory you could make up a shader language with a lispy syntax, but that'd be the depth of it, I guess. 01:06:25 Maybe one could ride CMLisp or *Lisp, though. 01:06:45 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:03 But these are quite different from the typical notion of "Lisp". 01:07:34 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:07:51 IOW, there isn't really anything somebody could catch up wrt shaders and "Lisp". 01:09:07 JS, otoh, is an entirely different game, but there we have another problem -- the lack of a sandboxing model. 01:09:38 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:10:12 I'm not even sure anybody did serious research about how seriously you'd need to strip lisp to run it safely. 01:10:35 So it's not quite entirely clear who's doing the catchup. 01:11:05 Anyway, the majority of the catchup was JIT compilation, which dates back to the Java times. 01:11:09 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-106-196.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:12:15 Which is when it became widespread. 01:12:34 The rest of CL is metaprogramming and a lot of good taste. 01:14:55 Well, "good" doesn't quite give it justice, but still. 01:15:15 *wgl* . 01:15:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 01:16:42 What we notably didn't see in CL is integration of a modern type system. 01:17:13 which isn't something you can paper over with primitives and metaprogramming 01:17:29 and oh, yes, lambdas 01:17:36 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:18:28 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:55 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.11] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:18:57 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 01:19:05 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-157.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:05 likewise, it'd be nice to have support for immutability, but at this point I might be sounding like a BitC salesman :-) 01:20:39 So, the point is "catch up with Lisp" is getting thin. 01:21:39 More than getting thin. Consider our debugging support story. 01:22:36 nyef, varying among implementations, but still top-notch among the best crop? 01:23:28 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:29 I don't know about the level of support provided by the visual studio and eclipse, actually, so... 01:23:45 -!- emma is now known as skampler 01:23:46 nyef, did you have anything specific in mind? 01:24:15 -!- skampler is now known as Guest79289 01:24:50 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:24:55 Because, my impression was, debugging was "our" forte, mostly due to tagged data and because the compiler doesn't have to serialize/unserialize debugging information. 01:25:06 -!- Guest79289 is now known as emma 01:25:38 Well, it has to, on a second thought, due to fasls, and I'm not sure about the implications.. 01:25:46 having all that stuff around makes lisp slower 01:25:52 SBCL's debug support is -painful-. 01:26:03 nyef, to extend, or to use? 01:26:06 the major optimization is to reduce debuggability to get rid of extra crap 01:26:22 rahul, I don't believe this, one second, to be honest. 01:26:33 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 01:26:57 The major optimization is starting from scratch with a compiler doing all modern optimizations. 01:27:00 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-188-124.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:31 Like as somebody proposed some time ago, pick the Muchnick book and implementing its algorithms. 01:28:06 There was analysis of assembly generated by SBCL some time ago, somebody japanese IIRC. 01:28:33 The fact that SBCL just didn't some rather common optimizations was obvious. 01:28:50 that's AFTER removing debug info using the EXISTING functionality of SBCL 01:29:17 deepfire: name the BIGGEST optimization buzzword for lisp 01:29:25 Well, obviously I'm in no position to argue that re-adding it is entirely possible. 01:29:32 rahul: "think hard" 01:29:39 heh 01:29:52 also applicable for debugging 01:30:10 stassats`, well, do it once in the compiler 01:30:20 Assembly makes people think hard too. 01:30:37 the answer is "boxing" 01:30:42 Or people will flock to languages with compilers allowing them to think less. 01:31:02 and you said boxed values are a big benefit of lisp 01:31:14 rahul, no the answer is a modern type system with adequate type inference which doesn't butcher optimizability 01:31:15 however, that is the most common thing SBCL complains about 01:31:33 deepfire: WHICH ALLOWS UNBOXED VALUES TO BE PASSED AROUND. 01:31:39 thank you for proving my point. 01:31:41 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:31:42 of course 01:31:44 rahul: who do i have to knock out? 01:31:52 stassats`: deepfire 01:31:53 heh 01:32:27 rahul, the "boxing" is a mere symptom 01:32:33 sigh 01:32:35 I thought that this much was obvious 01:32:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:32:47 you made it obvious that it's a valuable feature 01:33:01 dnolen_ [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:26 the actualy problem is called "lack of a turing-machine-friendly type system" 01:33:41 wtf 01:33:52 you mean lack of infinite memory? 01:34:00 inifinte, unstructured, no less 01:34:37 and a turing-machine-friendly language would run horrendously slowly on modern hardware 01:34:44 um, I don't want to go there, feel free to imply that boxing is not caused by lack of type hinting 01:34:53 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-106-196.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:35:06 you should learn what a turing machine is 01:35:35 first, tell me why your mention of infinite memory is relevant 01:36:01 that's the primary feature of a turing tape 01:36:02 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:36:02 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 01:36:09 it's linear and infinite 01:36:10 s/boxing/excessive boxing/ 01:36:23 and how is that relevant to the issue of boxing? 01:36:31 you tell me 01:36:35 you brought it up 01:36:43 no /you/ was going to tell me 01:37:21 tell you what? 01:37:31 you made the initial statement about turing machines 01:37:53 why should I try to justify your non-sequitur? 01:38:41 (or any of your other non-sequiturs in this conversation alone) 01:40:24 are you confusing turing with von neumann? 01:40:41 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:41:05 jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-shbtinpdmvhjzrzg] has joined #lisp 01:41:25 dynamic or dynamically-recompiled languages are probably not the nicest given the way von neumann archs work today, but they were enabled by that arch in the first place 01:42:51 We really have Harvard machines today. 01:43:20 Self-modifying code is allowed only at large granularities, like dynamic loaders. 01:43:25 Ok, rahul, you ask for a qualified response, you get it. 01:43:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turing_machine&action=edit§ion=3 01:43:38 yeah, that's the "work today" aspect of it, I guess 01:44:12 it's a harvard arch with a shared backing-store that can be used for communication between the data and code busses 01:44:25 see item no 2 01:44:40 It talks about a finite set of symbols within the alphabet. 01:45:08 Which means that you have a limit on the precision of integers you can represent in a single cell. 01:45:25 Which leads to the fixnum-vs-bignum division. 01:45:41 And the eq/eql division too. 01:45:50 Which leads us to the need of type hints for generation of specialised, efficient routines. 01:46:13 Do I need to continue for you to drop your "non-sequitur" assertion? 01:46:22 yes 01:46:26 ... They moved the USB device nodes -again-? WTF? 01:46:40 you need to show how arbitrarily definable data structures are a finite set 01:46:49 they are countably infinite, just like the integers 01:46:56 C has the same problem 01:47:15 it gets around the problem by just not KNOWING what it is manipulating 01:48:54 Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.240] has joined #lisp 01:49:47 gigamonkey: woot! just got "Coders at Work", looking forward to reading it these next few days 01:50:35 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:50:37 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 01:51:30 ok, I probably missed something 01:51:55 anyway, you have to come clear on where there was a non-sequitur on my side 01:52:52 which one to start with... 01:53:12 first you claim that tagging is a huge benefit while you're talking about trying to optimize for speed 01:53:22 What? 01:53:31 Where did I say or imply this? 01:53:31 then you claim that lisp is slow because it doesn't work like a turing machine 01:53:50 21:24 < deepfire> Because, my impression was, debugging was "our" forte, mostly due to tagged data ... 01:54:25 tagging is a benefit for debugging 01:54:38 optimizing for speed is hindered by tag manipulation 01:54:42 at the same time as you're talking about how these other languages are better because they use inference to not need tags 01:54:51 so which one are you talking about? 01:55:05 21:31 < deepfire> rahul, no the answer is a modern type system with adequate type inference which doesn't butcher optimizability 01:55:08 21:31 < rahul> however, that is the most common thing 01:56:23 Ok, so what types suffer from tag manipulation the most? Let's see, cons cells, numbers, right? 01:56:25 so you want type inference AND tags? or what? 01:56:36 Yes, both of them. 01:56:39 cons cells usually don't 01:56:48 numbers only do if you're multiplying 01:56:53 Well, due to implementations optimizing them out. 01:57:08 By placing cons cells in a specific region. 01:57:10 and only if you're multiplying by a non-constant value 01:57:12 nope 01:57:23 But there are tuples, and they still do. 01:57:26 I'm talking about boxed values 01:57:37 what tuples and what do they do? 01:57:55 Well, static type systems help with debugging too, by making it less necessary. 01:57:59 Similar to cons cells, but not limited to two cells. 01:58:18 jcowan: untill they don't 01:58:18 But all decidable type systems are straitjackets: they reject perfectly sound programs because the type system can't prove them sound. 01:58:26 deepfire: what ARE you talking about? 01:58:37 And undecidable (i.e. Turing-complete) type systems just push the debugging problem to the meta level. 01:58:59 and they allow perfectly unsound programs because they do something that the type system allows because you didn't use a tight enough straitjacket 01:59:27 jcowan: decidable <=> subject to pervasive type inference? 01:59:50 i.e. haskellish 01:59:52 Loosely speaking, yes. 01:59:52 beach: herep 02:00:03 jcowan: can you give an example? 02:00:19 *Ralith* is very interested in static typing, and kind of unclear on its disadvantages when done right 02:00:26 The point was that you can mix tagging, more automatic inference for unboxed values than CL makes comfortable and debugging. 02:01:02 In the small, *I* the programmer know that a list contains only numbers (or, say, alternating symbols and numbers) and so it's sound to do certain things on it, but since there's no way to declare such a thing, static type inference will puke on it. 02:01:08 sam191 [~sam@c-24-16-135-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:26 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BEC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:01:29 That's what I AM talking about. 02:01:37 jcowan: how is inferring that a lisp is only numbers not possible? 02:01:38 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:01:41 er 02:01:41 a list. 02:01:48 (a lisp of only numbers would be kind of weird.) 02:01:52 Just use tagging where it is appropriate. 02:02:02 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:02:02 A list, not a Lisp. 02:02:07 indeed. 02:02:12 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-fdkyjkauvcugfsam] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:15 This increases the need to store additional debugging information, indeed. 02:02:19 that is, I don't see how static typing is inherently unable to do that. 02:02:28 wtf 02:02:32 But not beyond the point of losing fun. 02:02:37 you all are embarassing me 02:02:50 deepfire: lisp already allows untagged values! 02:03:00 rahul: No, embarrassment is entirely your choice. 02:03:02 jcowan: I need to go for a bit; will be back in not too long. 02:03:04 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-spgdqbwtitwbqcal] has joined #lisp 02:03:12 -!- sam191 [~sam@c-24-16-135-38.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:03:29 nyef: I think I am making the mistake of assuming that these others are part of some grouping that matters and that includes me 02:03:37 -!- jollygood [~jollygood@pool-72-65-131-180.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jollygood] 02:03:51 oh, I was in NH this weekend by the way 02:03:55 nunb [~nundan@122.162.146.176] has joined #lisp 02:03:59 Oh? 02:04:07 Work, pleasure, other? 02:04:08 although I have no reason to assume that you are in NH right now :P 02:04:10 pleasure 02:04:19 went to Portsmouth to hang out 02:04:30 Ah. Portsmouth can be fun. 02:04:51 (Been there... once, in memory, but it was fun.) 02:05:07 heh... it was kind of strange... everyone herded together from one bar to the next 02:06:05 and one of the groups involved was apparently an annoying bachelorette party... and someone who I can only assume was the bride had a fluffy anemone on her head 02:06:09 jcowan, you might find BitC papers interesting 02:06:33 I've been reading them. 02:06:36 jcowan, the authors plan to extend to full Hindley-Milner type inference, AIUI 02:06:45 I'm also working on a statically typed Scheme-subset for FP arithmetic 02:06:52 s/FP/unboxed FP/ 02:07:22 What's your impression about BitC? 02:09:39 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:41 necroforest_ [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:58 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:10:13 There's nothing implausible about it, but it probably won't get the benefit of network effects unless it runs on top of LLVM. I need to get around to posting to the BitC list pointing people to Pure, not as a BitC-alike, but as an example of how to do impure eager FP (sorta) on top of LLVM. 02:10:28 *jcowan* loooooves Pure. 02:11:07 You seem to be using FP to mean two different things, or I'm just confused? 02:11:08 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:11:39 func prog and floating point 02:11:49 Ooops, yes. 02:12:00 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 02:12:07 floating-point the first time, functional programming (really generalized term rewriting, which is more general than functional programming) the seocnd. 02:12:10 mgst00 [~mgst00@c-24-91-179-192.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:11 TR2N [email@89-180-227-92.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 02:15:37 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:16:10 -!- necroforest_ [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:01 -!- mgst00 [~mgst00@c-24-91-179-192.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:21:23 Hmm, another high-performant ML-descendent -- ats-lang.org 02:22:40 In Pure there is no constructor discipline a la ML/Haskell. 02:30:34 Oh, Pure is lispy, in the sense that its macros operate on AST. 02:37:50 That's true; specifically, they are Scheme hygienic macros. 02:42:20 -!- JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:42:22 Heh, rewriting is what Zhivago mentioned the other day as a possible alternative to lambda. 02:42:41 I need to wrap my head around it.. 02:43:22 In Pure, lambda is syntactic sugar for rewrite rules instead of the other way about. 02:44:09 Ok, sleep is badly needed in here, later on. 02:44:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:45:21 deepfire: Nice example at http://code.google.com/p/pure-lang/source/browse/trunk/pure/examples/symbolic.pure 02:46:17 Xach: ping 02:46:57 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:22 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:56:59 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 03:01:02 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:01:36 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:53 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:04:22 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:07:47 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:10:02 should random return the same value if I give it the same random state each time? 03:10:21 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:10:23 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 03:10:31 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:47 if the state of the random state is the same 03:11:01 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 03:11:09 passing a state to RANDOM should modify its state 03:11:18 hrm 03:14:51 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:15:04 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:09 I *think* I'm giving it the same value each time, (defvar seed (make-random-state)) (setf saved-state seed) (random 3 seed) (eq saved-state seed) => T 03:15:33 but (random 3 seed) gives me a different value each time 03:16:18 (defvar seed (make-random-state)) ; afaict this val is the same at each call to random 03:17:25 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 03:17:53 you're *thinking* wrong 03:18:38 saved-state isn't saved at all 03:18:39 I thinking `C' seed, not lisp seed eh? 03:19:02 any of you familiar with cl-json... i encoded a some stuff no prob and it decodes 95% correct 03:19:29 what was "v0.1.0" turns into :V-0.+0.1+ 03:19:30 bytecolor: you need to copy it, if you want it to be _saved_ 03:19:36 where are these + and - comming from? 03:20:12 myu2 [~myu2@210.128.90.161] has joined #lisp 03:22:17 PuffTheMagic: v0.1.0 is a "potential number", I think, so it can't be treated as either a number or a symbol. 03:22:32 how might i force it to be a string 03:23:39 ahh i think i know 03:25:14 stassats: ah, so I need copy-structure 03:25:23 no 03:25:42 random state isn't a structure 03:25:46 clhs make-random-state 03:25:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 03:26:45 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:27 Random-states might be structures, but there is no way to find that out. 03:27:33 The possibility is allowed for, though. 03:28:00 and there is no need to care 03:28:23 I was looking at the #S( in the printed rep of the state 03:29:04 but yes it says in b/w implementation-dependent 03:29:36 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:05 I see -> (random 3 (make-random-state seed)) ; gives it a copy 03:33:59 so that will keep my seed from being molested ;) 03:34:14 Ahem. 03:34:33 maybe just replace it by (constantly 4) ? 03:35:38 I'm looking for a way to seed the randomizer at the beginning of each run, I'm not just using the same single random number ;) 03:36:36 so I can repeat the run 03:36:58 (let ((*random-state* (make-random-state starting-state))) (run)) 03:39:22 I found out why my output was not matching the book I read. Well the appendix examples matched, but not the problems. Koza uses something called a 'triply seeded randomizer' for the problems, but the park/miller randomizer for the appendix examples. _And_ he doesn't give code for the former randomizer. 03:40:09 At least I know why the hell my output does not match the book now. 03:41:02 So I'm removing the parker/miller randomizer and replacing it with cl random 03:41:27 any way, thanks for the help ;) 03:42:00 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:51 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:46:52 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:53 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:55 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-172.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:53:40 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:52 controlling molestation of your seed is a valuable concern 04:02:38 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:03:18 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 04:07:04 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 04:10:09 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:11:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:13:59 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:17:22 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:18:53 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 04:19:20 sivy [~sivy@69.2.100.75] has joined #lisp 04:19:49 -!- nickjd [nickjd@118x236x153x137.ap118.gyao.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:20:30 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:20:39 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 04:25:20 how do I escape out of a quote so that I can use a variable 04:25:25 i know i've used it once 04:25:31 `(hello ,world) ? 04:25:33 `(foo ,bar baz) 04:25:36 yeah ` 04:25:38 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 04:25:43 soo many little things 04:25:45 thanks again 04:25:54 you guys are really helpful 04:26:11 antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:20 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-78.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:31:10 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-shbtinpdmvhjzrzg] has left #lisp 04:36:10 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tbgrqscreeifaigo] has joined #lisp 04:39:42 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-58-29-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:41:49 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:46:04 Anyone used cl-ledger? 04:46:21 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 04:47:07 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:10 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:29 *nunb* realises cl-ledger is officially abandoned, acc to its creator 04:53:05 -!- sivy [~sivy@69.2.100.75] has left #lisp 04:53:11 hawkbill [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hckbytuivuwlnjti] has joined #lisp 04:53:12 -!- hawkbill [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hckbytuivuwlnjti] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:33 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:16 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:59:33 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 05:01:18 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:23 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.146.176] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:25:29 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:29:39 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-78.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:32:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:33:59 mcdonji [~mcdonji@S0106002369b86815.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:39 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.128.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:41 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:36:07 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 05:43:09 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-022.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:43:17 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has joined #lisp 05:43:25 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:54 mishoo [~mishoo@95.233.108.37] has joined #lisp 05:46:58 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-ciwlpfmirbniihyb] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:46:58 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 05:50:23 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 05:57:39 If I pass (make-array 2) as the :initial-element of another make-array call, it gets called once and references to it fill each slot of the containing array? thus any modifications to any subarray affects all subarrays because they are the same object. 05:58:05 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-022.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:58:09 clhs make-array 05:58:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 05:58:11 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:33 you see, it's a "Function" 05:59:49 which means, that every argument of a function is evaluated before passing it to a function 06:00:04 so the answer your question is yes 06:00:39 Okay, good. I'm on the clhs page, I'm just checking to make sure I understand properly. 06:00:42 Thanks. 06:07:09 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 06:07:50 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:14:08 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-213.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:14:58 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:28:31 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:50 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:30:37 Hun [~hun@95-89-68-11-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:31:18 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 06:33:31 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:07 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:39:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@95.233.108.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:40:53 hjpark [~user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 06:44:43 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:48:05 -!- hjpark [~user@jaram.hanyang.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:50:46 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:52:47 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 06:54:31 -!- Hun [~hun@95-89-68-11-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:57:33 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-197-119.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:00:46 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.248] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:57 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:01 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:07:15 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:10:13 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:14:23 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:14:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:15:23 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:16:09 fusss [~chatzilla@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:32 folks, i am on ccl and it can't seem to redefine a structure to a clos class 07:16:42 anyway i can makunbound it? 07:17:31 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:18:27 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:19:09 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:19:40 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:19:59 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:10 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.209] has joined #lisp 07:21:13 unintern? 07:25:18 stassats: thanks 07:25:26 also, wtf is \= ? 07:25:35 it's the inverse of /= in ccl 07:26:13 (\= 2 2) --> T and (\= 2 3) --> NIL 07:26:23 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:26:28 <_3b> isn't \= same as |=| ? 07:26:28 \ is escape... 07:26:37 (= 2 2) indeed T 07:28:02 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:28:26 udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-qboblrumqsmkhyrs] has joined #lisp 07:29:33 Is there a way to automatically convert nil to 0 and T to 1? 07:29:54 is there a need? 07:30:24 Yes. I mean, I can write a function, but I'm wondering if there's something I can use built-in? 07:30:46 I don't need "automatic" conversion, I'm sorry, that was phrased poorly. 07:30:58 nickjd [nickjd@118x236x109x33.ap118.gyao.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:31:32 <_3b> (if ... 1 0) ? 07:32:38 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:32:40 That works, thanks. 07:33:41 Athas`` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:35:34 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:52 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:37:09 -!- Athas`` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has left #lisp 07:37:22 oh 07:37:33 _3b: >_< 07:37:42 o/ 07:37:43 of course \ is the escape 07:37:48 nyef: aroundp 07:39:24 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:41:42 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 07:45:19 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-176.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:45:39 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:49:10 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:49:12 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.137] has joined #lisp 07:49:19 mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:49:21 -!- dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:49:45 dejones [~dejones@cpe-70-124-77-66.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:58 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:52:02 mega1 [~quassel@pool-04dc8.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:53:28 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 07:54:55 pragma_ [~pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:23 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest80115 07:55:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:57:30 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:45 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:58:22 If I'm in a function foo, and I call return-from foo in a loop with a "finally" clause, the finally clause does NOT get executed? 07:59:33 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:54 good morning 08:02:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:02:18 mooglenorph: yes, that's right. 08:02:33 orphee [~orphee@195.14.246.100] has joined #lisp 08:02:37 mooglenorph: To get out of the loop and still have the finally clause be executed, you have to use (LOOP-FINISH) 08:03:12 tcr: check. I actually want the behavior I described in this instance, but it's good to know about loop-finish too. 08:03:24 tcr: thanks 08:03:30 If you just want to get out of the loop, not your function, use RETURN 08:03:43 LOOP establishes an anonymous block (that is a block named NIL) 08:04:58 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:48 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:09:22 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:10:34 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-227-92.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:10:47 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:14:08 -!- mcdonji [~mcdonji@S0106002369b86815.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:15:31 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:21:10 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 08:23:19 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:26:59 mooglenorph pasted "better way?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96788 08:27:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tbgrqscreeifaigo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:28:07 It seems like there's no built-in way to alter what a loop runs "finally" based on how it terminates, (running out of stuff, or violating a while condition) 08:28:19 so is that a reasonable workaround? 08:29:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pscevmaambrwktrq] has joined #lisp 08:35:31 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:35:44 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:37:04 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:38:35 X-Scale [email@89-180-153-132.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 *hefner* starts to think that ECL's living in a shared library means it will never be even remotely efficient 08:41:13 sid_ [~sid@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 08:41:21 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:41:25 good morning 08:45:48 :wait-multiple in threads.impure.lisp is just wrong 08:46:32 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:49:17 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:52:00 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 08:59:00 splittist [~5c9782b1@gateway/web/freenode/x-tvagaxyhdmhemfzs] has joined #lisp 08:59:10 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 08:59:19 morning 09:00:39 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:03:17 -!- Guest80115 [~pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:03:17 Guest80115 [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 09:03:20 -!- Guest80115 is now known as pragma_ 09:07:51 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:10:55 tcr: i agree with the "The test case is bogus because it does not account for spurious wakeups" part 09:11:13 but unless i misread it, the test assumes no spurious wakeups 09:11:41 or more correctly, it is testing that multiple waiters don't wake each other up willy-nilly 09:12:03 I thought the point of the test is exercising deadlines 09:12:26 I started forcing myself to document my test cases :-) 09:12:30 so i don't see how "and fixing it, will make spurious wakeups less unlikely--making this test case fail almost reliably" follows 09:12:34 can only recommend 09:12:46 i agree on that! 09:12:47 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:13:59 ok seems like you actually looked what revision added that test case 09:14:54 What do you not see on my conclusion? 09:15:52 since the test-case assumes no spurious wakeups (quite optimistic, but...) i don't see how making spurious wakeups less like will make the test fail more often 09:16:23 making spurious wakeups less _unlikely_, i.e. more likely 09:16:40 aaha. foiled by the double negative :) 09:16:57 sorry about that, I'm usually bad at reading double negative myself, too! 09:21:25 but since the commit that introduced the test also introduced the bogus WAITQUEUE-DATA = NIL, i think killing the test as part of the patch is OK 09:22:08 at least if we can cook up testcases for the lost wakeups that the patch fixes 09:23:36 I could but only by inserting a (thread-yield) somewhere into condition-wait :-) 09:23:42 apropos: a test-case doesn't have to trigger 100% to be valid -- but if it is likely to trigger only 1% of the time despite running for 30 secs, it should probably spit out a "CONGRATULATIONS!" note and explain how sbcl-devel *really* wants to know 09:23:55 but then I'm on a uni-core on my laptop when I tried that 09:24:57 did you try flooding the waiting thread with (interrupt-thread waiter #'thread-yield)? 09:25:33 I contemplated doing that, but I thought it's pointless on my uni-core 09:25:45 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25:59 because the window is really _small_ 09:27:12 I'll try to cook up a test case later... gotta debug one of my own spuriously failing test cases right now :-) 09:27:39 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-76-18.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:40 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-74-106-76-18.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:27:40 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 09:30:42 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:16 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 09:31:33 since you're looking at threding stuff, i have a wait-free singly-linked-list/set implementation hanging around if you need one. not terribly tested and the API could use polish -- hence not up anywhere 09:32:08 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-200-22.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:16 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pscevmaambrwktrq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:24 as per http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.59.8911 09:32:32 I also have comments on sb-queue 09:32:58 if it's quick, shoot 09:33:31 (if not, mail is good) 09:33:50 dequeue should have an option to block until a new item is there (spurious wakeups are ok for my purpose) 09:34:13 tcr: not the purpose of the queue 09:34:19 i have sb-mailbox for that 09:35:03 hm 09:35:08 what is that based on? 09:35:13 wait, i'll stick it on github 09:35:25 it's sb-queue + a semaphore, basically 09:36:23 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:36:40 yeah that's what I use on top of sb-queue right now, too, though I use mutex&cvar directly 09:37:12 could you just add sb-mailbox to sbcl proper? I think there's a point of having contribs even in a (very) experimental state 09:37:38 and if it's just that they (with their own tests) excel parts of sbcl 09:38:05 http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-mailbox 09:38:36 tcr: i've been meaning to, just haven't gotten around to it yet 09:39:58 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:41:04 that's easy, let me do it. I'll write a few tests, and add it. Means I can get rid of mine code, so it's a win situation. 09:41:50 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:46:15 http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-lset 09:46:20 is the set implementation 09:46:49 but considering how many useful concurrent data structures there are, i think maybe they should be combined in a single contrib 09:46:51 dunno 09:47:33 but sb-mailbox can probably go into a contrib of its own for now, yeah. feel free to take care of it :) 09:47:50 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:50:26 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:51:10 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:52:47 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:53:17 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:55:54 there was another bit that queue-head and queue-tail will probably fall into the same cache line, making enqueue and dequeue interfere with each other more than necessary. OTOH I'm not sure about that reasoning because CAS means a full memory barrier which means a flush of the whole cache, not just a cache line, no? 09:56:19 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Client Quit] 09:56:57 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:57:17 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00:10 i think so -- but if you can get more measurable performance by changing the layout or allocation order, i'm all for it 10:01:20 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rulonufaagrxuiqc] has joined #lisp 10:04:28 -!- Phoodus [~foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:41 It's amazing how the same threading code runs orders of magnitude slower on a multi-core comparing to my 1core machine :-) 10:05:46 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 10:07:39 I see a line comming up: Some people, when confronted with a performance problem, think "I know, I'm gonna use threads." Now they have a zillion problems, and worse performance. :-) 10:07:47 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:08:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-188-124.northland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:08:47 *easyE* has 99 problems and threads ain't one. 10:08:57 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-78.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:15 It's all about contention. 10:09:31 heja easyE! Do you use jdb for debugging abcl itself? 10:10:25 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-202-98.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:10:26 Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-28-130.w86-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:10:54 Well, NetBeans, which is a spirtual descendent of jdb. 10:11:34 There's a lower level API in JVMTI, which I am trying to wedge ECL into. 10:11:44 I made `A' in sldb attach gdb to the running process; in principle that could be customized so to run jdb (or something else) 10:11:54 for abcl 10:12:38 Noted. I'll try to think of the ABCL equivalent. 10:13:32 For the JVM, one has to start the process with a shared library (the JVMTI part) to enable debugging, so the option isn't always dynanically configurable. 10:13:45 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-156.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 10:17:03 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:17:04 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-83-19.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:41 nunb [~nundan@122.162.146.176] has joined #lisp 10:18:03 lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:19:13 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:06 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:26:29 yauz [~als@175-146.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:30:11 i am not sure JVMTI misses much that JDB catches 10:30:30 meaning jvmti is ussually sufficient 10:31:07 tcr: so if you need anything lowerlevel than jvmti.. just use gdb 10:32:06 well jvmti can be not enough sometimes.. so i have to use gdb.. i dont think jdb would have been anymore helpfull than jvmti 10:32:43 (like when i am writting JNI.. gdb becomes as useless as jvmti) so thats why gdb is better 10:32:51 (like when i am writting JNI.. jdb becomes as useless as jvmti) so thats why gdb is better 10:33:41 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-83-19.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:34:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:36:19 -!- jao [~jao@83.50.65.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:36:24 With JVMTI, I planned to construct a JVM debugger as opposed to a Java debugger. 10:36:44 One that works with respect to the bytecode, as opposed to a Java source file. 10:36:47 surreal 10:36:49 thats a good plan.. is this for ECL or ABCL? 10:37:03 It would be for debugging ABCL with ECL. 10:37:03 i just had a telemarketer call me from tokyo 10:37:34 did you see the old abcl devugger? 10:37:34 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:13 it stopped beening built when sun switched to jvmti from their old api 10:38:23 nikodemus: new job? 10:38:59 nikodemus: the keys are very close to each other 10:39:32 easyE: arround here: http://trac.common-lisp.net/armedbear/browser/trunk/j/doc/jdb.html?rev=2434 10:39:54 no, a marketing company wanted to have me as a client 10:40:09 "we are expanding our client base in finland" 10:40:25 -!- myu2 [~myu2@210.128.90.161] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:40:42 easyE: basically j allowed stepping thru the source 10:42:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:43:49 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:58 easyE: i got it ported to 1.6 but i totally lost the source. basically sun moved the API arround 10:44:10 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:44:45 easyE: sun just wanted to one day totally not support that interface 10:45:51 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:22 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:47 JPDA was deprecated as of 1.5 10:47:10 thats the one .. i was trying to remember its name :) 10:47:12 But that looks like a wrapper to jdb (from the description) 10:47:41 yeah pretty much .. its kind of like a wrapper arround jvmti now 10:48:07 its stil function.. and calls the jvmti c code 10:48:11 functional 10:50:10 Can sbcl unicode support now properly sort the Greek and Hebrew alphabets? 10:52:29 lat_: unicode support is not locale support, really 10:54:24 LONG-FLOAT can and should be bigger than DOUBLE-FLOAT ? 10:54:26 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:54:44 LONG-FLOAT can and should be bigger than DOUBLE-FLOAT ... but the other way arround is bad? 10:55:10 jdz, ok, does sbcl have Greek locale support? can it properly sort the Greek alphabet? 10:56:03 lat_: i don't know 11:00:18 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:00:57 I think Krystof has been working on such features. He knows if I can persuade him to tell me. :>) 11:01:52 CL-USER(4): 32434345.345555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 11:01:52 32434345.345555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 11:02:13 sorry .. was supposed to be one line.. but just as ugly 11:02:48 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 11:03:08 (sort "" #'char<) => "" 11:03:28 is that a proper sort? 11:03:36 but the question would be - should that be a DOUBLE-FLOAT or a LONG-FLOAT? 11:03:50 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-04dc8.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:05:02 they look sorted starting out 11:05:23 so what? 11:05:45 so it either didnt work at all or they got sorted correctly 11:06:01 you say SORT in sbcl is broken? 11:06:22 not i am saying you probly need to test it.. but you havent.. sinbce you gave it persorted cvhars 11:06:30 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:36 pre-sorted chars 11:07:04 i fail to see how it doesn't show that it works 11:07:24 so you might want to (sort "" #'char<) 11:07:32 what's the difference? 11:07:39 dmiles_afk: that would make it harder to check if it works 11:08:01 at least for me, who does not know the greek alphabet 11:08:17 (sort "abcde" #'char<) => "abcde" 11:08:28 is sorting working or no? 11:08:32 it sure is 11:08:46 the sorted string is the same as the input 11:08:53 dmiles_afk: are you thinking or not? (no offense) 11:08:58 and if i know the input is sorted, i know that SORT works 11:09:01 (sort "edcba" #'char<) => "abcde" .. show if it works 11:09:10 it's testing #'char<, not sorting 11:09:27 i'm testing, and what needs to be tested 11:09:36 ahh.. ok i though t was suppoed to put them in a differnt order.. oops 11:09:53 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:10:13 ok maybe if you gave it n unsorted and it returns NIL.. you know it works? 11:11:12 i see though you is if "" is correct order 11:11:25 we presume that SORT in sbcl works, and we only need to test whether CHAR< works, since that what matters for unicode characters, SORT doesn't know anything about unicode 11:11:25 yes 11:11:55 i guess there is nothing in greek alphabet that needs collation support? 11:13:17 i mean the character codes are in increasing order if the letters are in alphabetical order, yes? 11:14:00 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:05 i think when they assigned characters to codes on a computer.. they might have assumed that it is the order that sorting programs are expected to use (premature optimization) .. but it is possible kids in greece learn them in differnt order 11:14:11 well, i think greek's encoding is implementation dependant, but in unicode it seems to be sequential 11:14:24 stassats, what happens when accent and breathing marks are present? 11:14:48 lat_: you can easily see for yourself 11:15:38 greeks use accents on characters? 11:15:51 stassats, Yes, I'm setting up to test that right now 11:16:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:16:55 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:59 but how would you want them to be sorted? 11:17:17 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 11:18:33 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:18:50 which of double-floats or long-floats would be expected to have more bits? the http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm#double-float doesnt say 11:19:10 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:19:11 <_3b> long 11:19:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rulonufaagrxuiqc] has left #lisp 11:20:30 hello 11:20:55 (sort "   ,  ,  ." #'char<) 11:20:56 " ,,." 11:21:11 That is wrong. 11:21:28 that's how it is in unicode 11:21:39 planet.lisp.org is down? :( 11:21:40 time to write your own CHAR< 11:22:15 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:22:26 _3b: thanks 11:22:35 jao [~jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:36 lat_: note also that the correct ordering you are talking about is a political matter, not technical 11:23:23 what ould you say for LEAST-NEGATIVE-NORMALIZED-LONG-FLOAT if your bits are infinate? 11:23:36 lat_: like, people in Greece come together and decide where they will put which letters; all the letters are there in the Unicode set already. 11:24:07 jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 11:24:30 or they might even not be there (there are the combining accents and stuff) 11:24:32 lat_, there's some preliminary work on that in cl-l10n. someone needs to write a parser for the collation rules in the CLDR xml's and provide a locale sensitive sort in cl-l10n based on those rules 11:26:00 What is cl-l10n? 11:26:22 mishoo: cl-l10n? 11:26:24 oops 11:26:28 minion: cl-l10n? 11:26:29 cl-l10n: cl-l10n is a portable library for handling program localization. http://www.cliki.net/cl-l10n 11:27:21 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cl-l10n 11:27:38 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.240] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:31:39 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.91.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:54 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 11:32:10 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:32:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:33:00 attila_lendvai, is cl-l10n being developed? Who is working on it? 11:34:44 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:39:55 sigh, whenever people throw in non-unicode characters, my emacs buffer is borked 11:40:29 non-unicode characters? 11:40:30 PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-198-10.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:37 -!- PatrickMcLaren [~Patrick@ppp118-209-198-10.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:02 Is SeanRoss the only developer of cl-l10n? Is he every here on this forum? 11:41:21 every = ever 11:43:12 jdz: yeh, they appear as ? here 11:43:27 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:43:27 jdz: ahm, non-asci, that is 11:48:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:49:13 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C02E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:56 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:26 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 11:56:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:39 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:22 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:06:12 -!- splittist [~5c9782b1@gateway/web/freenode/x-tvagaxyhdmhemfzs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:06:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:07:54 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:08:41 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-176.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:09:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:43 madnificent, are you using emacs23? It handles unicode fine, 12:10:00 provided you use a unicode font. 12:16:06 mega1 [~quassel@3e44a43b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:18:23 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:53 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has joined #lisp 12:20:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:20:58 PuffTheMagic: what's up? 12:21:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:21:20 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:01 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:22:10 hypno: looks like the dns is down :( 12:22:15 lat_: I'm running it over screen, I think that is causing the issues 12:22:37 lat_: woah, I'm running 22 here (whot) 12:22:39 *Xach* googles "Nick Levine", wonders wtf at some of the image results 12:23:10 *madnificent* wonders why he HAD to google up "Nick Levine" too 12:23:22 nick levine runs the DNS for lisp.org 12:24:03 Xach: I meant why I had to look it up on google after you mentioned the evil of doing so. 12:24:04 madnificent, 23 is much better in my opinion; worth upgrading. 12:24:16 lat_: I run 23 on the desktop, so I'm a bit surprised 12:24:27 lat_: but yes, I will upgrade 12:25:02 Xach: okie dokie. so my procastrination will have to wait a few hours today. :) 12:27:46 Unicode Collation Algorithm: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/ 12:28:18 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:50 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:29:16 <_3b> madnificent: screen -U ? 12:29:50 _3b: I'll try that sometime in the future :) 12:29:55 thanks 12:30:15 on sbcl can the number of bits for on a long float be changes to increase the size of MOST-POSITIVE-LONG-FLOAT? 12:30:16 <_3b> (possibly also specify a utf8 locale if you don't already) 12:30:47 also (equal (1+ MOST-POSITIVE-LONG-FLOAT) MOST-POSITIVE-LONG-FLOAT) 12:30:52 dmiles_afk: not easily. 12:30:54 that should be true? 12:31:06 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-172.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:31:11 i know ONE is really to small a change 12:31:18 too* 12:31:46 <_3b> if you want bigger floats, try clisp or cmucl (i think) 12:32:34 cmucl has double doubles 12:32:41 ah right clisp is well hung there 12:33:21 in sbcl long-float is the same as double-float 12:33:28 Mm..what would someone have to do to get double doubles into sbcl? 12:33:35 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:33:54 *_3b* still wants 16bit short floats :p 12:34:02 <_3b> (not enough to implement them though) 12:34:08 there is a bitrotted long-float feature scattered over the source. not sure how much work it would be to make it work 12:34:11 http://pastebin.ca/1850209 <- i am implenting a new lisp 12:34:45 right, ravenbrook has taken down paste.lisp.org too 12:34:47 *Xach* slaps forehead 12:34:56 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:35:06 yeah.. ii had tried paste.lisp.org 12:35:17 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-47-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:35:25 Anyone have Nick as a facebook friend? Or some other connection? 12:35:35 look like CMUCL and CLISP are both at 1.7976931348623157d+308 12:36:15 its not Brian Mastenbrook who does paste.lisp.org? 12:36:55 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-1-157.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:59 well he had the lisppaste bot i thought 12:37:59 <_3b> dmiles_afk: clisp is settable at runtime 12:38:09 _3b: ah 12:38:51 Xach: i have his email address, but you probably have that already 12:39:08 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:12 clisp: LEAST-POSITIVE-LONG-FLOAT -> 5.676615526003731344L-646456994 12:39:14 nikodemus: I don't, but if it's at ravenbrook.com, I bet it won't work. 12:39:29 it is, hm 12:39:30 nikodemus: is it gmail or something? 12:39:31 oh. 12:40:16 G'morning all. 12:41:04 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:41:48 _3b: neat are recomputed whenever (EXT:LONG-FLOAT-DIGITS) is SETFed. They are not constant variables. 12:42:43 though limited to 2^(2^31) :) 12:43:03 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44:49 doh, (expt 2 (expt 2 31)) => can't represent result of left shift 12:45:54 <_3b> ouch, i think that killed by sbcl :p 12:46:41 here comes most-positive-bignum 12:49:32 <_3b> hmm, restarted it and tried again and no messages in *inferior-lisp*, no excess ram usage, but still stuck at 100% cpu, and can't interrupt from slime 12:50:14 yes these guys cannot read what they can print 12:50:57 _3b: x86-64? 12:51:02 <_3b> yeah 12:51:12 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.110.186] has joined #lisp 12:51:12 CLIsp is great: BIGNUMs are limited in size. Their maximum size is 32*(216-2)=2097088 bits. The largest representable BIGNUM is therefore 22097088-1. 12:51:56 should be (expt 2 (expt 2 64)) for x86-64 12:52:38 <_3b> i guess it is just taking a very long time to print or something 12:53:04 clisp, sbcl, cmucl x86-64 croaked when letting their readers have their MOST-POSITIVE-LONG-FLOAT given back to them 12:53:25 though they might be allocating themselves room 12:53:26 <_3b> 2^22 almost works, but breaks slime :/ 12:54:26 *_3b* wonders how hard the slime part would be to fix, it gets annoying sometimes 12:54:39 is that elisps fault? 12:54:40 _3b: are you using a dedicated stream? 12:55:14 erm emacs lisp 12:55:16 <_3b> stassats: looks like it 12:55:32 swank:*use-dedicated-output-stream*? 12:56:05 <_3b> yeah, that set to t, and swank::*dedicated-output-stream-buffering* :none in .swank.lisp 12:56:19 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@xvm-22-22.ghst.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:57:19 <_3b> last time i looked into it, my best guess was the bit where it assumes it writes less than #xffffff bytes (characters?) at a time 12:57:44 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:30 do you print so many chars often? 12:59:49 <_3b> enough to be annoying 13:00:09 <_3b> but not enough to work around it by printing to a file or whatever 13:00:30 -!- getha is now known as thijso 13:00:31 my biggest problem is that you can't interrupt it 13:05:43 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:06 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:07:50 *dmiles_afk* akfish 13:10:22 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 13:16:41 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-83-19.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:18:36 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:19:10 [mark] [~mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has joined #lisp 13:19:58 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:21:35 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:08 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-109.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:32:14 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:32:18 Axius [~hi@92.85.217.108] has joined #lisp 13:33:22 -!- orphee [~orphee@195.14.246.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:36:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:37:19 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 jdz_ [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 13:39:40 Kickaha [~alex@bl14-31-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 13:45:52 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 13:46:15 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:46:35 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:46:41 -!- kami`` is now known as kami 13:52:20 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:24 -!- Kickaha [~alex@bl14-31-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:07 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:55:33 -!- lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:56:20 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:56:28 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:01 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:58:50 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:10 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:59:16 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-187-4.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:23 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-187-4.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:54 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 14:03:17 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:22 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-uhytppkenfjbrjus] has joined #lisp 14:04:13 minion: memo for drewc: Would it be possible to merge both ALU Wiki and CLiki? What would be reasons against? 14:04:14 Remembered. I'll tell drewc when he/she/it next speaks. 14:04:28 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05:14 p_l: Reasons against include that they have different purposes. 14:06:04 p_l: cliki is officially about free (open source) lisp on unixoid platforms (though some people add "and windows" in there). 14:06:20 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 14:09:57 -!- Axius [~hi@92.85.217.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:29 nyef: Frankly speaking, I always found it weird and confusing, wishing for a *single* site/wiki/whatever. 14:12:08 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:33 Oh. I've always considered the ALU wiki to have been declared ignorable. 14:12:49 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:01 nyef: well, after a while I got it, but I'm trying to think from a position of a complete newcomer (cause I'm trying to tutor at least one person in CL) 14:15:37 My advice for the complete newcomer is "ignore the alu wiki". 14:16:48 nyef: well, "merge ALU wiki" wasn't high on TODO. In worst case, I'll simply edit a bunch of pages in CLiki and leave it at that ;-) 14:17:30 *p_l* finds front page of CLiki (and the overall layout) way too confusing/unaccessible/unappealing or any combination of those three depending on the page. 14:17:38 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:18:02 *kpreid* wishes CLiki had the textarea (html mangling) bug fixed and decent diffing 14:18:53 minion: memo for nikodemus: It does not seem to be possible currently to defer a deadline for forever (i.e. to give it up completely); would you mind making (defer-deadline nil c) do that? 14:18:54 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 14:18:57 ... Didn't drewc completely rewrite cliki, or is it still running the same old same old? 14:19:15 <_3b> nyef: both? 14:19:25 That's a possibility, yes. 14:19:25 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:41 <_3b> last i heard, rewrite runs alu wiki but not cliki 14:19:42 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 nyef: ucliki (drewc's version) runs current copy of ALU Wiki, afaik. 14:19:45 Isn't cliki full of out-of-date information? I can't remember an event I seriously used it 14:19:48 carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.221] has joined #lisp 14:20:06 i only used it to find libraries 14:20:15 tcr: that's another point of mine. It does contain updates, but it seems like a lot of data wasn't touched upon in long time. 14:21:54 What's the right verb which expresses "to defer a deadline for forever"? 14:22:21 tcr: Indefinitely postpone? 14:22:43 ideally something to replace foo in foo-deadline 14:22:46 (It's a VP, not a V, but seems to express the right thought.) 14:23:00 indefinitely-postpone-deadline? 14:23:26 cancel-deadline? 14:23:57 <_3b> ignore-deadline? 14:24:05 yeah that was my next bit :-) 14:24:07 dead deadline 14:24:08 it's pretty much ignore 14:24:35 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:24:47 disable deadline? 14:25:34 -!- sid_ [~sid@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:02 sid_ [~sid@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 14:27:02 pkhuong: hah, I look at that and think "how I wish I could" 14:27:13 Ugh. Bloody debian. Aptitude seems to think that a dependency on libc6-dev (>= 2.5) isn't satisfied by libc6-dev (2.10.2-6). :-/ 14:28:08 Oh, wait, there it goes. 14:29:20 idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 14:32:16 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:34:11 -!- bandu [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2009/06/08 19:18:46 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:37:10 bandu [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:12 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442226.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:38:03 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:38:06 anyone has a clue: whenever I try to open a file with C-x C-f I get an 'args out of range' 14:38:12 when trying the same file again it works 14:38:22 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:23 trying another file fails, try that file again and it works 14:38:53 Reinout_Stevens: a lisp file? 14:39:09 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:15 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:39:23 Reinout_Stevens: This file has a -*- thing at the top or bottom? 14:39:27 any file 14:39:37 and no, no -*- 14:40:04 there is so many ways to make this 14:40:17 Reinout_Stevens: try #emacs 14:40:20 is there a way to trace the error in emacs? 14:40:27 k, thx anyways :) 14:41:27 M-x toggle-debug-on-error 14:41:49 don't steal food from #emacs! 14:42:00 -!- X-Scale [email@89-180-153-132.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:42:25 k, ty 14:42:31 apparently its in vc-darcs 14:45:25 i know the lw-hug is a better place for this but I have a binaryt that I built in lispworks and I was wondering if I pass it arguments from the cmdline, how to access those args from my lisp code? 14:46:47 PuffTheMagic: I bet this is mentioned in the documentation! 14:46:48 PuffTheMagic: I'm not sure, but cl-launch might have info about that. 14:46:55 nyef: that's crazy talk. 14:46:59 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:08 Yeah, I know. Documentation? For lisp stuff? Riiight... 14:47:18 nyef: for CL in general or LW 14:47:19 system:*line-arguments-list* 14:47:27 :D 14:47:34 fist result from google "lispworks argv" 14:48:08 never thought to add argv, i've been trying to block C out while learning this 14:48:16 to m y google search 14:48:38 PuffTheMagic: was that your ping from earlier? 14:49:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:49:07 sorry i reminded you about C 14:49:10 yeah but I don't rememeber what I wanted to ask you, I think it had to do with asdf and buildapp 14:49:45 stassats: C is what I know most... but I am loving lisp so far 14:50:47 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:51:00 Xach: i was gonna ask if the binaries built with buildapp work with asdf code cause i was having problems getting asdf to work witht he lispworks delivery and was thinking abotu switching to sbcl for this since this app i am making is just a console daemon 14:51:11 *nyef* used to be good at C... nearly a decade ago now. 14:51:31 PuffTheMagic: i guess it depends on what "works with asdf" means. 14:52:01 like pull in all the code properly so that the resultant binary works 14:52:20 PuffTheMagic: that's the idea. 14:52:22 sorry, some parts of my brain are still in C land 14:53:01 are you sure you have an ASDF problem and not a delivery problem? (if you are using LW-pro) 14:53:03 anyway I really appreciate that you guys havent cursed me out of here with all these questions 14:53:13 we're not in Kansas anymore! 14:53:18 hypno: its not a prob any more 14:53:35 hypno: i was just forgetting some lines in my ~/.lispworks file 14:53:41 that i needed to add to my delivery script 14:53:49 PuffTheMagic: alrighty then. :) 14:55:54 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:57:29 TR2N [email@89.180.176.73] has joined #lisp 14:58:47 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:59:19 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-200-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:26 nyef: Surely C is simple enough for you to *stay* good at it. Wheras I fear my C++ or CL rusts with every month of non-use. 15:01:15 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:06 The only C hacking I've been doing over the past however long has been working with the SBCL runtime and a couple of other small things that were mostly written at some point in the '90s. 15:02:58 They changed the C standard since the last time I did anything major in C. 15:03:58 yeah. you easily loose your edge in C programming too. i can remeber a time when I thought nothing was impossible in C (after months of insanely intense OS hacking), but these days it would take quite some time even to enter the C mind set. 15:04:03 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:04:11 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:06:01 The thing is, my C mindset evolved to the point where I was abusing the preprocessor enough to break any smart development environment and was writing C source code generators for when the preprocessor just couldn't do the job. 15:07:58 skeptomai [~cb@97-113-217-249.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:27 heh 15:11:36 ZabaQ: CL won't let you stop being good enough at it that fast. C++ might, since they still are changing the standard, and I fear what template libraries might show up 15:11:50 And that evolution happened long before I started getting into Lisp. 15:14:26 -!- skeptomai [~cb@97-113-217-249.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Ok, I'm outta here] 15:16:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:17:39 hacim [~micah@debian/developer/micah] has joined #lisp 15:18:18 p7 [~IceChat7@84-74-149-115.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:18:41 can anyone recommend an elisp tutorial for someone who is not familiar with lisp but wants to do some emacs hacking? 15:19:05 eintro 15:19:08 should I read a common lisp book and then tack on the rest? 15:19:13 and that's #emacs question 15:19:24 eintro? 15:19:30 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:20:39 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:20:45 eintr, rather, Emacs Lisp Intro 15:21:36 stassats: do you mean the gnu.org http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro ? 15:21:57 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 15:22:47 i've browsed that and it didn't seem as well written as http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book, but that is clisp... so I was wondering what path people take for these things 15:22:50 any repo-install users here? 15:23:32 hacim: yes, you can type C-h i m Emacs Lisp Intro 15:23:54 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:14 hacim: I don't think learning common lisp is a very good strategy for learning emacs lisp. 15:24:30 it's worth it for its own benefits, though. 15:24:33 hacim: Common Lisp isn't called "clisp", clisp is one of the implementations of Common Lisp 15:24:42 though it would put you off emacs lisp for life :) 15:29:29 stassats: yeah I've looked through C-h i m Emacs Lisp Intro and found it a bit... opaque 15:29:37 Xach: ok, thanks! 15:29:51 good to know about clisp vs. Common Lisp 15:30:05 Joreji [~thomas@70-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:30:14 read Emacs Lisp Reference Manual then 15:33:04 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:38 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:33:50 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:34:46 -!- Xantoz_ is now known as Xantoz 15:35:50 -!- udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-qboblrumqsmkhyrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:39:45 nyef: that reminds me .. you mentioned you had a cygwin + mingw setup for building SBCL - I had a look at cygwin and it looked to me that it can only drive mingw-gcc3 as they deperecated the -mno-cygwin flag in version 4 and they haven't got a cygwin->mingw cross-compile sorted yet. 15:39:56 Is this the case or am I barking up the wrong tree? 15:40:13 (this is for building scbl + sbcl loadable .dlls) 15:40:18 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-23-87-252.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:21 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-23-84-107.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:44:03 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:44:49 mcdonji [~user@173-203-206-96.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:19 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-29-154.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:40 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-23-87-252.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:50:06 I wouldn't know, as I try not to upgrade cygwin. 15:53:06 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.137] has quit [Quit: off] 15:54:07 -!- Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 15:55:42 ZabaQ: last time I built SBCL on windows my workaround was indeed to use gcc3 15:56:13 ah 15:57:24 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.110.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:28 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:02:27 -!- sid_ [~sid@192.163.20.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:05 Hmm. Well I use mingw with g++ 4.4 because I have other projects that include extreme boost evil and I want the compile to finish before friday. Possibly I'll need two mingw toolchains side by side. Or I suppose I could just try a pure mingw/msys build first. 16:03:06 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:04:43 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-jfjmbcepfuoomapm] has joined #lisp 16:06:01 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:10 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:21 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:00 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:02 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:58 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 16:11:54 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:37 -!- idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:12:57 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:14:27 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 16:15:09 If I install hunchentoot with asdf-install as root system-wide, when I try to load it as a normal user, I get a missing dependancy MDF, what would that be all about? 16:15:40 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:16:24 Arelius: are you sure it is MDF and not MD5? 16:16:27 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:17:00 Yeah, MD5, sorry. 16:17:21 Arelius: Ironclad? 16:17:24 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:17:35 minion: cl-md5? 16:17:36 cl-md5: CL-MD5 is a Common Lisp implementation of MD5. http://www.cliki.net/cl-md5 16:17:51 p_l: huh? 16:18:12 ... nope, cl-md5 16:18:12 hunchentoot doesn't use ironclad 16:18:25 minion: please tell Arelius about clbuild 16:18:26 Arelius: please look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 16:18:27 stassats: yeah, just noticed the existence of cl-md5 :-) 16:18:31 Lovely. MAKE-ARRAY won't displace a ub-8 array onto a string. :-/ 16:18:44 arrr! 16:20:00 *nyef* considers using SAP functions to "fix" the problem by changing the string to an octet vector directly. 16:21:35 milanj [~milan@77.46.251.147] has joined #lisp 16:24:32 ZabaQ: you can have both installed side by side and update /etc/alternatives/gcc as needed 16:24:54 -!- p7 [~IceChat7@84-74-149-115.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day] 16:26:13 p7 [~IceChat7@84-74-149-115.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:26:29 -!- p7 [~IceChat7@84-74-149-115.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 16:28:18 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:31:48 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:33:20 I think it just occured me how to "easily" write a test case for the lost wakeup bug 16:34:58 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:50 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:07 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-18-254.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:40 hrm I hate it when I'm doing to many stuff at the same stuff in round-robin mode... my mental stack feels overwhelmed 16:36:58 ... no lisppaste. Lovely. 16:37:20 thanks again for yesterday, nyef; learned a lot 16:37:28 tcr: You're welcome. 16:37:56 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-29-154.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:37:58 *nyef* now has a wonderfully-nasty hack to share, and no lisppaste with which to share it. :-/ 16:39:02 If this was #apl, I'm sure two lines will be enough for everybody 16:39:11 s/will/would/ 16:41:08 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-23-80-224.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:39 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-18-254.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:00 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:51:07 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 16:52:48 lol 16:54:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:46 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 16:56:03 Hmm, I can set up paste.l1sp.org as a temporary name, if someone can do the other bit. 16:56:40 The "other bit" being making clnet's web server and lisppaste itself happy with the idea? 16:56:46 yep. 16:57:25 adnd planet.l1sp.org? 16:57:30 I'll see what I can do. 16:58:39 stassats: yes. 16:58:48 stassats: that will take a little time to percolate to my nameservers. 16:59:36 what's wrong with paste.lisp.org? 16:59:38 probably ravenbrook will be fixed by that time... 16:59:48 (it seems to work fine for me) 16:59:50 foom: ravenbrook nameservers are not available to answer questions about lisp.org 17:00:06 foom: oh, it's working now. thanks! 17:00:21 foom: there was an outage. 17:01:16 Okay, I see lisppaste now too. 17:01:19 hm, that zone is not in good shape. ns.lisp.org is the other NS...and it has no A record. 17:01:36 (And just when I found where the configuration parameter is in lisppaste.) 17:02:00 foom: really? i see only two ravenbrook servers for lisp.org NS 17:02:16 lisp.org. 3474 IN NS ns.ravenbrook.com. 17:02:16 lisp.org. 3474 IN NS ns.lisp.org. 17:02:27 oh, if you ask ravenbrook, i see 17:02:28 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:02:32 yes, it is screwed up. 17:03:11 plus, out-of-balliwick NSes are generally poor practice. 17:03:36 nyef pasted "A nasty hack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96796 17:03:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:03:48 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:03:52 that balliwick is in a quandry! 17:04:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:05:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@70-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08:09 *nyef* sighs. 17:08:34 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ffa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:55 And, utterly typical, the kernel I just managed to build doesn't recognize my several-year-old hardware, and wants firmware files for what it does recognize. :-/ 17:09:34 I don't know if I've ever managed to compile a working kernel except by using the distro's configuration. :P 17:10:04 X-Scale [email@89.180.174.56] has joined #lisp 17:10:10 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.176.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:41 ahh, looks like ravenbrook did some renumbering today 17:11:40 *Xach* hopes he can weather the revenue loss from the planet lisp outage 17:12:28 Lovely, this particular bit of video capture hardware is known not to work. :-/ 17:13:05 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:17 -!- X-Scale is now known as TR2N 17:13:50 Joreji [~thomas@70-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:16:20 hey folks ..say i've been a VIM user for 1-+ yrs w/ lots of plugins and custom stuff.. is there a slime for me? or am I expected to be born again on emacs? /me not enjoying the idea of moving in baby steps in the editor.. 17:16:33 oops, i meant 10+ yrs 17:17:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17:45 it's always fun to learn something new 17:18:44 yeah I know how it goes, the plan was to learn lisp, tho, not quite emacs.. 17:19:10 nuba: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 is something i found useful on the topic 17:19:10 but turns out is the best tool 17:19:55 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6643cb-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:19:56 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-213.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:20:09 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 17:21:06 stassats: i've got no problems with it, i'm not a vim zealot, and im not into editor wars either 17:22:10 there are some cl environments for vim 17:22:36 Xach: thanks for the pointer, reading it.. 17:22:37 but i doubt they can compete with slime, when you learn how to use slime 17:22:54 minion: nekthuth? 17:22:54 nekthuth: Nekthuth: Connection with a Lisp Nekthuth is the combination of a vim plugin and a common lisp library which enables vim users to start up or connect to a CL interpreter inside vim, and do interesting things with it. http://www.cliki.net/nekthuth 17:23:35 stassats: yeah, i suppose if I get really bitten by the lisp bug i'll most likely end up on emacs :D 17:24:28 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-58-160.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:32 nuba: Thats what happened to me :-) 17:25:06 *stassats* transitioned from vim to emacs before going lisp 17:26:35 *nuba* just transitioned to vimperator (firefox + vim keybindings) and xmonad (a tiling window manager like stumpwm) a few weeks ago 17:27:37 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6643cb-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 17:27:43 nuba: I want to like both of those but I've never quite been able to stick with them. 17:28:28 I suspect I need to learn haskell to really live with xmonad 17:28:32 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:09 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31:28 -!- jao [~jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:35:36 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@70-095.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:11 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:39:35 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:47 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 17:41:57 freiksenet1 [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:42:06 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:24 Should I be using clbuild over asdf-install? 17:43:21 quite possibly 17:43:21 nikodemus, memo from tcr: It does not seem to be possible currently to defer a deadline for forever (i.e. to give it up completely); would you mind making (defer-deadline nil c) do that? 17:43:28 -!- freiksenet1 [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:44:06 Joreji [~thomas@92-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:44:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:50 bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-200-22.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:45:04 minion: memo for tcr: i'm not sure about giving up deadlines completely in a handler -- sounds fishy. do you have a use-case? 17:45:04 Remembered. I'll tell tcr when he/she/it next speaks. 17:45:26 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:46 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:46:12 nikodemus: why does it sound fishy to you? 17:46:13 tcr, memo from nikodemus: i'm not sure about giving up deadlines completely in a handler -- sounds fishy. do you have a use-case? 17:46:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:44 nikodemus: I check for messages in a deadline handler, process them, and usually want to go one with the original computation 17:47:12 I also use it a lot in test cases 17:47:42 And I think I know how to write a pretty reliable test case for the lost wakeup case; at least it looks good on paper :-) 17:48:55 tcr: sorry, i don't have the cycles for this right now 17:48:59 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:49:12 if you're convinced it's right -- you have the commit bit... 17:49:42 (i'm totally overloaded this week) 17:50:06 Pesty japanese telemarketers.. :-/ 17:50:33 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:51 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.173] has joined #lisp 17:52:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:53:47 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-72.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:54:18 nikodemus: your commit to ctype.lisp introduces a call to BREAK 17:54:28 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:54:38 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:54:49 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:51 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:57:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: away!away!] 18:00:07 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:02:44 Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-199-38.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:03:31 waat 18:03:33 shite 18:04:18 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:12 fixed 18:07:15 WuJiang [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:07:36 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-202-98.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:11:58 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:04 -!- WuJiang [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:12:49 Lovely. Yet another machine that's going to need a -rc linux kernel. :-/ 18:13:01 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082DBEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:30 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-199-38.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:13:53 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:14:27 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:32 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082CBB4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:15:28 -!- linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:24 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-241-196.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:18:07 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:17 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:19:32 nyef: you might make your life simpler and more pleasant if you purchased machines where Linux is known to work in advance 18:19:54 ... Purchased? 18:20:03 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:20:04 stole? 18:20:13 simpler? 18:20:13 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:20:18 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:46 *hefner* remembers he hates Linux, goes back to hacking 18:20:54 The machine I'm trying to get running was a participant in a round of musical hardware. Someone got a new machine, his old new-machine was demoted to old machine, his old old-machine ended up with me. 18:21:21 here's a nickel, kid... 18:21:26 Yeah, yeah. 18:21:29 *Xach* is guessing no BLM this month 18:21:41 *Xach* is half-glad, as he half-committed to doing a lightning talk 18:21:45 I haven't heard anything positive about there being a BLM this month. :-/ 18:22:41 Bangkok Lisp Meeting? 18:23:26 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 ... Now, where'd that directory of 80's mp3s get to...? 18:25:30 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:07 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:28:30 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:28:31 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:28:39 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:01 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:23 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 18:33:32 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.251.147] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:09 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:38:15 milanj [~milan@109.93.202.150] has joined #lisp 18:41:22 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:45:07 mishoo [~mishoo@95.233.108.37] has joined #lisp 18:46:37 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-172.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:50:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:52:03 -!- linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:28 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:48 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:50 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:06:05 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-5140.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:25 jao [~jao@83.50.65.250] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 -!- Guest46534 [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:14:51 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 19:15:42 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-145-104-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:22:14 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:22:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@95.233.108.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:24:34 *deepfire* shudders after reading another Helmut thread on slime-devel 19:26:28 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-19-132.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:20 slime-devel is nearly the most boring list I follow, but Helmut is good for some entertainment 19:28:01 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:28:17 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 19:28:18 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 19:29:46 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-23-80-224.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:10 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:31:35 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 19:32:06 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 19:32:50 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:01 -!- jollygood [~jollygood@129.71.215.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:36:43 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:56 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:07 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 19:43:49 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:44:03 CptPicard [~eneva@a91-152-240-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-241-90.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:51:39 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-241-90.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.94.1] 19:52:38 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:29 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:57:52 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:02:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-145-104-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:02:47 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:52 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:03:32 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:05:06 An asdf idiom question --- is there an idiom for "if this file is here, load it, else skip?" (not sure if-dependency-fails fits this case) 20:06:07 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-jfjmbcepfuoomapm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:22 (hmmm.... if-component-dep-fails is not documented...) 20:08:03 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.80.123] has joined #lisp 20:08:36 *levente_meszaros* wonders where did slime-profile-browser go 20:09:03 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-mniozttkufreybff] has joined #lisp 20:09:38 there was such thing? 20:09:55 i only know about slime-sprof-browser, from slime-sprof 20:10:13 stassats, hah that's the one 20:10:13 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-109.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:19 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-58-160.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 20:10:27 I think it was called slime-profile-browser at some point 20:11:01 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDAA65D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:43 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-mniozttkufreybff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:44 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:03 entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.37] has joined #lisp 20:12:38 i added it to slime with that name, i don't remember how it was called originally 20:17:06 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-72.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:58 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:19:56 is there a document explaining sprof output? 20:20:21 Fare: Hello! Still no BLM this month? 20:22:03 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:23 Fare: sbcl's manual 20:31:15 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 20:36:16 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-202-98.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:58 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 20:37:22 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:35 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-184-142.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:41:58 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has quit [Quit: co'] 20:43:41 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 20:44:03 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 20:44:04 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:05 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-172.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:32 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:56:05 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:21 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:08 huh why's semaphore-count declared to be unsigned-byte 20:58:50 you can have negative number of them? 20:59:15 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:47 you're confusing semaphore-count with semaphore-waitcount 21:02:50 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:04:09 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:04:43 nyef, nope, no BLM :( :( :( 21:08:43 iwillig [~iwillig@topp148-office-nyc.openplans.org] has joined #lisp 21:13:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:05 francogrex [~user@134.102-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:16:38 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:15 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 21:19:23 Hi I'm trying this Movitz; basically I have download grub-bootloader.img and don't know what to do with it. I have no floppy drive... 21:19:35 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has joined #lisp 21:19:59 try qemu? 21:20:13 can I boot it from a USB? 21:20:16 -!- bandu [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:48 stassats: qemu is to simulate an OS? Can't I just boot from a USB key? 21:21:13 qemu to simulate hardware 21:21:34 you can, but do you like rebooting? there's not much to see in Movitz 21:21:51 francogrex: You might be able to "just" burn it as an el torrito cd boot image. 21:22:39 internals of movitz are interesting or if you want to hack on it, rebooting isn't useful for either 21:23:22 stassats: nyef: I don't intend to use it extensively or anything, just to see if it works on my laptop 21:25:01 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:25:11 o/ 21:26:02 Hello nikodemus. Caught up on your paperwork? 21:26:52 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:27:23 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@topp148-office-nyc.openplans.org] has left #lisp 21:27:39 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:51 Phoodus [~foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:05 is there any known issue in SBCL with using nested macrolets? 21:28:13 our code is correct, but compiles horribly slowly 21:28:43 1.5 minutes for this one file, and adding a few (format t..) debugs in there drops it down to over 5 minutes compile time 21:29:10 does it compile quickly in clozure cl? 21:29:10 (correct as in runtime behavior looks sensible; the runtime is fast, too) 21:29:16 yes 21:29:23 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:29:33 haven't thoroughly tested in CCL though 21:29:45 *Fade* defers to actual sbcl hackers 21:31:09 the only time I've ever seen this sort of slowness is when there's an inline declaration that happens to be recursive 21:31:17 but even that wasn't this slow 21:31:25 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:13 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-ihodvpxuqquvxczp] has joined #lisp 21:32:32 <_8david> macros make it easy to generate monstrously large code 21:33:28 this generated code shouldn't be that complex 21:33:41 it's basically closures and small, non-recursing utilities 21:34:55 <_8david> slime-macroexpand-all it, and if the cause of the slowdown still isn't obvious from the macroexpansion, paste it 21:35:04 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-28-130.w86-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:37 <_8david> or C-c occasionally and check what the compiler is up to 21:35:56 I've been studying it for a long time 21:36:15 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:25 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:37 I instrumented my code, too, seeing the runtime & compile-time changes of get-internal-real-time as it compiled. All the time was taken outside of my code, presumably in the ocmpiler/optimizer 21:37:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@92-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:38:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39:16 <_8david> so? you're not giving us anything to work with 21:39:25 I'm asking if there are any known issues I'm hitting 21:39:41 not "please fix my code" :) 21:40:03 it's known that sbcl can be slow at compiling 21:40:05 <_8david> yeah, large code is a known issue. macros as such aren't. 21:41:21 I'd suggest you use sbprof to profile sbcl itself during the compilation and send that over to sbcl-devel 21:41:45 the macro expansion is only 7677 lines long 21:42:02 tcr: thanks, if we can profile SBCL itself, that's a good lead to go on 21:42:28 "only" 21:42:28 <_8david> it's the first time ever I'm using this expression, but re the 7677 lines, let me say: 21:42:29 <_8david> lol 21:42:55 no it's not the first time we're using it 21:43:10 ? 21:43:15 we're putting more data through it though, and seem to have uncharacteristic slowdowns 21:43:49 it's probably constraint propagation; is it full of nested ifs? 21:43:50 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:49 no, it expands to nested lets/flets (non-recursing), calls to general mapc/sublis stuff with lists that aren't very long, etc 21:45:00 not loaded with tests 21:45:19 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.146.185.234.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:45:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ffa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:08 anyway, I'm going to try a few things, and then hit sbprof 21:46:16 numberGrey [~michael@c-24-12-171-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:04 hmm, anyone know how to keep the sbcl interpreter open after piping code in? as in echo "(require 'asdf)" | sbcl -some-no-exit-option 21:47:50 where would you like sbcl's input to come from after you've finished piping code in? 21:48:02 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-241-196.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:48:06 the terminal 21:48:18 Use cat? 21:48:49 the pipe steals the terminal 21:48:53 (effectively) 21:49:01 use a FIFO? 21:49:37 isnt' there a sbcl -eval-this-first "(require 'asdf)"? 21:49:49 (not literally) 21:49:59 ohh, I saw the --eval option, I will test it out 21:50:09 not sure if that leaves it interactive or not, but try it 21:51:40 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:53:03 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:56:42 yes, after --eval, sbcl remains interactive 21:56:48 the --load filename.lisp option did what I needed, i just wrote the code into a file. For some reason I couldnt get --eval to work correctly but maybe I will try some more things 21:56:55 I use it all the time. 21:57:19 sbcl accepts only one form per --eval 21:57:42 you can use progn to group them if you don't depend on side effects from in-package and such 21:57:47 but there's progn and there can be many --evals 21:58:10 you can also use --eval "'(#.(in-package :foo)#.(foo:bar))" 21:58:19 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:40 Fare: wow thank you, I will try some of this out to get it going 22:02:00 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:25 Fare: I am running this command sbcl --eval "'(#.(require 'asdf)#.(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'web)" but get an end of file error. Off hand, do you know how I could manipulate it to allow for that not to happen? 22:02:39 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:02:42 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:02:43 close the initial parenthesis! 22:03:07 sbcl --eval "(require 'asdf)" --eval "(require 'web)" 22:03:19 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 22:03:22 stassats, that's too clean and not hackish enough! 22:03:28 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:03:58 besides, it's a pain to accumulate a variable number of --eval's in a shell, but easy to build a hackish string with plenty of #. 's 22:04:07 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:15 sbcl --eval "(mapcar 'require '(asdf web))" 22:04:21 s/mapcar/mapc/ 22:04:28 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 s/mapc/map()/ 22:05:49 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 22:07:20 Fare: sorry, ahah not a lisp programmer here just running some scripts to startup a server 22:07:30 Fare: thanks for your help 22:07:31 Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.251] has joined #lisp 22:07:50 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 22:08:26 -!- francogrex [~user@134.102-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:09:06 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:10:21 prand [~user@97-115-191-144.spkn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:08 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-19-35-184.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:49 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:08 lp 394206 22:17:08 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/394206 22:17:21 Phoodus: you may be getting bitten by that 22:17:23 entropi [~entropi@nat/intel/x-uvxoagidndmztlla] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 nikodemus: shiny, is that new? 22:17:33 there's a patch there that might help things 22:19:05 myu2 [~myu2@KD124211002193.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:19:08 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-ihodvpxuqquvxczp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:34 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-19-132.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:21:08 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-23-81-44.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:22:19 prxq [~mommer@f050241154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:27 ysph [~user@24.181.93.165] has joined #lisp 22:22:58 hi 22:23:10 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-19-35-184.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:26:38 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:27:50 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-103-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:09 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:53 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 22:30:09 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-202-98.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:31 -!- prand [~user@97-115-191-144.spkn.qwest.net] has left #lisp 22:33:18 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:39 igaray [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 22:33:46 -!- igaray is now known as lordakinator 22:34:04 Phooodus [foo@174-17-99-27.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:12 -!- Phoodus [~foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:34:13 nikodemus: yes, that sounds really close. Our macro stuff is just a DSL, too 22:34:18 -!- Phooodus is now known as Phoodus 22:35:04 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:57 -!- mcdonji [~user@173-203-206-96.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:23 bandu [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:21 Ok, BitC moves away from SEXP surface syntax. 22:40:45 deepfire, what now then? 22:41:37 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:26 -!- bandu [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2009/06/08 19:18:46 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:44:18 for those of you who have used postmodern, have you been happy with it? 22:44:57 deepfire: always has been the plan. 22:46:09 bandu [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:50 pkhuong, I was about to dive into list archives, do you know why or any pointers? 22:47:37 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-184-142.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A82DF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:55 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-156.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:37 deepfire: the usual; sexp syntax hinders adoption. 22:49:49 wgl` [~wgl@40.sub-75-205-219.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:59 pkhuong: well, it seems only curly braces have positive impact. It would be interesting to know why 22:51:05 I think people are scared of unbalanced parens. Seriously. Haskell's syntax is much crazier, IMHO (not that I don't like it) but people don't seem to complain about tons of sigils 22:52:35 almost all syntaxes are 'crazier' than sexp syntax. 22:53:04 however, it seems that the crazy end wins, i.e, C++ and perl. 22:53:26 i mean in terms of popularity, of course 22:53:28 it depends on what have you learned first, I guess 22:53:45 i started serious programming from C++, and that is a natural syntax for me 22:53:50 Pascal syntax is disguisting 22:53:55 prxq: you can see the same in lisp: e.g. loop. 22:54:00 people like syntax 22:54:04 and when I first saw Lisp - 'oh my God, what the heck is that?' 22:54:09 TeMPOraL: that's odd. Why is it "disgusting"? 22:54:09 :D 22:54:20 prxq: Algol syntax is more common than Sexp 22:54:30 disgusting for me 22:54:30 really, Foo > > is natural? 22:54:37 ... ouch 22:54:44 pkhuong: what is that?? 22:54:49 I got used to C++ syntax 22:54:50 C++... NOOOOOOOOOoooo 22:54:53 prxq templates ;) 22:54:58 oh right :-) 22:55:34 i personally think Haskell has too much syntax 22:55:36 pkhuong: That's Foo> now (well, next year). :) 22:55:45 Pascal (and Ada, and similar languages) is hard for me, because when you write 'begin' and 'end' instead of { and }, then the code gets really dense 22:55:48 sexp notation seems to me the most natural possible. 22:55:49 and I have trouble reading it 22:55:58 but I guess it is a matter of practice 22:56:07 operator, argumens, and that's it. 22:56:24 Eye learns sooner or later. 22:56:31 (foom): next year we'll have [](){}(); :D 22:56:41 getting used to the "standard" indentation in Lisp is probably the critical requirement to be able to easily read it 22:56:49 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.187.12.251] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:56:50 I think 95% of Haskell syntax is datatype and typeclass crap, if those were removed, then the rest is expressions and infixes, which IMHO can be used for datatype declarations as well 22:56:54 (Phoodus): I guess you're right 22:56:58 hm 22:57:02 why would SBCL give: 22:57:03 the octet sequence (250 111 114 46) cannot be decoded. 22:57:05 I realized it when I was doing examplex from SICP on paper 22:57:13 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:16 those are all valid ASCII 22:57:19 that I balance parens without thinking by sole identation 22:57:19 and the stream is UTF-8 22:57:23 Ralith: doing what? 22:57:29 prxq: reading from a socket. 22:57:38 reading text, that is. 22:57:43 Ralith: i see. sorry, no idea. 22:57:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:03 code-char and char-code operate correctly on both those octets and the characters they represent. 22:58:08 i have that kind of errors too and am wondering as well. 22:58:59 in fact, calling (read-line) and pasting the relevant block of text into the REPL succeeds. 22:59:05 that doesn't look to be valid UTF-8 22:59:14 250 = %1111 1010 22:59:17 adu: given that they are probably one of the most important parts of Haskell... 22:59:25 the longest UTF-8 header byte is 1111 0xxx 22:59:34 p_l: what, infixes or datatypes? 22:59:38 what's funny is that i've seen programs in C like this: func1(arg1,arg2,func2(arg3,arg4)); etc. written by people who say s-expr's are not natural. 22:59:39 adu: types 22:59:57 prxq: have you seen JS with lots of lambdas? 23:00:03 nested ? 23:00:06 p_l: no :-) 23:00:13 Phoodus: it's not a header byte, it's a character. 23:00:16 looks like that, i bet 23:00:18 prxq: be happy 23:00:28 Ralith: octets are bytes of a UTF-8 stream, right? 23:00:42 a byte 250 seems to be invalid in a UTF-8 octet stream, and thus it can't decode it 23:00:47 p_l: i get to look at F77 codes every now and then... 23:00:51 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.174.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:00:51 but it only gets worse, the longer Haskell is out, like did you know "data (Foo bar blee) => bar | !blee ~bar where" is legal haskell now? 23:00:58 its certainly not legal Haskell98 23:01:05 prxq: F77? Not F95? 23:01:20 p_l: no, the old stuff. Common blocks and shit 23:01:29 Phoodus: then why do code-char and char-code eat it happily? 23:01:33 adu: it's GHC extension, right? 23:01:38 ya 23:01:44 because char code 250 is a valid character 23:01:55 Phoodus: and, for that matter, why does my UTF-8 terminal display the character correctly? 23:01:55 but char 250 encodes into 2 octets in a utf-8 stream 23:02:20 is there a haskell-like lang with sexprs? 23:02:33 prxq: I wish. 23:02:49 Ralith: I presume the socket sender is not encoding with UTF-8 23:03:01 kind of odd, all that 'purity' and then baroque syntax 23:03:44 Phoodus: The application is an IRC bot. irssi and urxvt are both configured to expect UTF-8 and decoded the char perfectly. 23:03:47 what's going on here? 23:04:02 -!- sepult` is now known as speult 23:04:05 -!- speult is now known as sepult 23:04:18 Ralith: most irc clients fall back to latin-1 when utf-8 fails. 23:04:23 unicode char 250 is an overhead bar thing 23:04:39 is that the expected character? 23:04:59 oops, read that wrong, it's an accented u 23:05:13 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.168] has joined #lisp 23:05:18 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:19 Phoodus: that is the expected character, yes 23:05:30 foom: how can I emulate that? 23:05:41 then that octet stream is definitely NOT a utf-8 encoding of a string starting with that character 23:06:39 so, again, how do I fall back on latin-1? 23:06:52 yeah, latin-1 250 ($fa) is accented u 23:07:15 prxq: Liskell 23:07:38 u+00fa to be more correct :-P 23:07:52 p_l: I'm pretty sure that that's merely aesthetic. 23:09:07 Ralith: that plus macros 23:09:08 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WAAAAAAAAGH!!] 23:09:09 Ralith: to emulate it, you might just trap an error on decode, and output the code-char of the car, continuing on with the cdr 23:09:43 or just trap the error and re-decode the whole line in latin-1. 23:09:53 at least it'll work for where UTF-8 decoding fails but the unicode point matches latin-1 23:10:02 yeah, that's probably better ;) 23:10:15 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:19 seeing as you are dealing with separate chat lines 23:10:21 afk 23:10:29 p_l: it seems some kind of civilization is finally caching on. It even runs on GHC. There is hope indeed. 23:11:47 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD124211002193.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:21 foom: okay, so how do I specify the encoding to read-line? 23:13:30 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 23:16:34 (setf (stream-external-format stream) ...)? 23:17:21 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:19:21 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-23-79-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:59 argh, you can't setf that. 23:20:23 -!- ysph [~user@24.181.93.165] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:20:27 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:29 nor do there seem to be any standard (sub)set of encodings represented by its value 23:20:30 foom: ideas? 23:20:43 3rd party lib that does byte->latin-1? 23:20:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:20:58 just straight integer->char with mapcar? 23:21:06 Phoodus: this is a stream, not a list... 23:21:12 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-23-81-44.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:21:37 read-byte, read-sequence? 23:22:15 Phoodus: would throw the same error and don't allow me to specify encoding. 23:22:25 I have no idea what you're trying to get at. 23:23:10 I'm getting at getting bytes of the socket and doing the decode yourself, preferably using existing libs 23:24:09 why? 23:24:14 the impl does a fine job of decoding 23:24:21 so that you can toggle between different decodings 23:24:22 I just need to tell it to fall back on latin-1 23:24:29 billstclai [~billstcla@p-216-227-82-53.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:38 but there's no immediately obvious way to mutate stream encodings 23:25:00 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:25:03 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:03 read a list of octets up to EOL, try to decode it with the system, if that fails then (mapcar #'code-char ...) 23:25:06 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 23:25:34 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:25:36 http://www.coyotos.org/pipermail/bitc-dev/2009-February/001431.html 23:25:45 Apropos BitC and surface syntax 23:25:58 Phoodus: I don't have a list of octets in the first place; I have a stream :P 23:26:02 "While 23:26:02 s-expressions make a great deal of sense as an expression syntax, they 23:26:03 aren't that great for declarations." 23:26:18 a stream that you cannot in any way read octets from? 23:26:23 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:33 "read a list of octets..." implying off the stream 23:26:37 deepfire: Implying that... declarations aren't a kind of expression? 23:27:32 odd 23:27:42 It's hard to add optional components to a sexp format. Take type declarations, for example. It might be nice if you could actually put the type next to the variable. 23:28:06 But there's no readily available syntax with which to allow that. :) 23:28:06 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:30 You can't just add &@$%*^ and call it good. :P 23:28:32 foom: like, i:int, or so? 23:28:59 lordakinator [~igaray@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 23:29:18 i mean, is that the kind of closeness you want? 23:29:18 foom: well, you have naked-var vs (adorned-var opt1 (opt2 val) opt3) etc 23:29:25 -!- wgl` [~wgl@40.sub-75-205-219.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:29:44 but then everywhere you want a literal list, you'd need to tag that, too 23:29:45 foom: isn't that just the difference between ((var1 type1) (var2 type2) ...) and (var1 typ1, var2 type2, ...) ? 23:29:55 Phoodus: reading one octet at a time strikes me as extremely hacky. 23:30:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@f050241154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: good night] 23:30:31 Ralith: how else do you propose to read up until a particular byte (EOL)? 23:30:39 buffer it with read-sequence then 23:30:40 #'read-line works nicely. 23:30:53 but it reads chars, not bytes 23:31:13 and you don't know the encoding, so you need to potentially run the same list of octets through multiple trial decoding passes 23:31:37 indeed 23:32:07 doesn't read-sequence block? 23:32:35 nyef, not sure about the implications, tbh 23:32:59 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.73.75.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 23:33:00 doesn't read-line block too? 23:33:32 Phoodus: until it hits an EOL, not until it hits n chars. 23:33:41 true 23:34:03 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:12 huh, there's unread-char, but no unread-byte? 23:35:22 There's also no peek-byte. 23:35:47 wow, lots of manual foo to do binary streams then 23:36:04 Clearly, you are not expected to do -parsing- on binary streams. 23:36:40 there seems to be no good way to do nonblocking reads of byte buffers 23:38:02 wait, read-sequence takes nil as length 23:38:27 CLHS doesn't document the behavior of that though... 23:38:30 If you find an actual good way, I'd be interested. I've only found various bad ways. 23:38:38 at least not in the read-sequence page 23:38:39 basically common lisp is hopeless at interfacing with the outside world. 23:38:46 yeah, I know :-P 23:38:49 *dmiles_afk* is not affish 23:38:52 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-35-139.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:57 *dmiles_afk* is not akfish 23:38:59 Someone might've written a library that can do this better. 23:39:01 *Phoodus* marshalls his lisp through a base64 stdio pipe :-P 23:39:01 *Ralith* is kind of idssapointed. 23:39:20 Phoodus: on SBCL, reading 'nil' bytes means "read until the buffer is full" 23:39:23 but doing byte-buffer reads with read-sequence with nil length might be something to try 23:39:28 hmm, ok 23:39:38 so, still n chars. 23:39:42 read-byte should work fine 23:39:55 I was rather hoping to avoid reading a byte at a time 23:40:00 yeah, if IO efficiency doesn't factor into "fine" :) 23:40:04 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:09 It doesn't, for an IRC bot... 23:40:25 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-23-79-21.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:40:58 *Ralith* isn't writing this for practical purposes :P 23:41:18 but still, I agree it grates against every best-practice instinct 23:41:20 Non-blocking read a latin-1 character stream, which has a 1:1 mapping to octets, then string-to-octets and back as needed for other encodings? 23:41:22 There's also no peek-byte. <- thugh can most lisps be expected to have it? 23:41:48 (that would work on binary streams) 23:41:55 maybe some trivial-* package wraps this better 23:42:09 nyef: is all UTF8 valid latin-1? 23:42:10 meaning like of #+sbcl #+abcl #+cmucl 23:42:20 no 23:42:30 only 0-127 23:43:07 Ralith: Latin-1 is a 256-character 8-bit encoding, fully covering the encoding space. It is thus "safe" to do I/O with, in a sense. 23:43:13 utf8 only uses bytes up to 240, 241-255 probably match 23:43:25 but 128-240 clash between utf8 and latin-1 23:43:32 Ralith: If you then convert the latin-1 strings back to octets, you can transcode the octets back to strings however you wish. 23:43:40 ugh that's ugly. 23:43:47 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 23:44:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:49 the best solution I've heard so far, but ugly nonetheless :/ 23:44:54 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:01 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-19-35-139.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:45:15 http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/ ? 23:46:15 sniffing through here there's some things that look reasonable http://www.cl-user.net/asp/hMXY/sdataQv5YZs3IDQjr-br2NOMk8yBX8yBX8oQ5Ss9v-ujg$Np5/sdataQu3F$sSHnB== 23:46:31 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:46:32 does iolib work with standard streams? 23:46:44 never used it; just google hits 23:47:05 looks like it includes socket stuff anyway 23:47:30 NIO off that directory page also seems interesting 23:47:56 The iolib author is in here fairly often, too. 23:47:59 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:38 *Ralith* is satisfied for now, I suppose 23:48:42 thanks all 23:49:22 p_l: around? 23:49:25 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-19-33-180.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:41 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-82-53.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:56 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDAA65D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: tired] 23:50:28 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 23:50:29 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 23:50:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:35 t 23:51:54 or maybe, given scheme-like question, #t 23:52:02 (around-p 'p_l) 23:52:21 Phoodus: No, no... It's aroundp, as around is only one word. :-P 23:52:28 ah 23:52:39 ... lol 23:52:41 *Phoodus* uses schemely ? postfix in his own code anyway ;) 23:52:49 (Or, (one-word-p 'around) => T.) 23:52:50 erm, suffix 23:53:19 back to .. erm, serious? 23:53:36 wrt. accessor "-of"-style naming, do you use CLASS-SLOT-OF or just SLOT-OF? (well or something else) 23:54:27 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:30 Phoodus: what lisp are you using nowadays? 23:54:43 did you say ECL? 23:54:51 SBCL 23:54:55 testing out with CCL here & there 23:55:04 haven't hopped onto threads yet, but will in the next version or 2 23:55:23 so that'll be CCL on windows and SBCL on linux 23:55:28 i guess for forward progress for you that probably the best 23:55:40 drewc: anyway, you were going to ask/say something... (my bet is something related to CLiki) 23:55:43 coudln't get ECL to work at all on 64-bit windows 23:55:50 though we tried that early on 23:56:27 is ABCL an option for windows? 23:56:46 maybe, what's its speed like compared to SBCL? 23:57:05 making a lisp portable between posixly systems and windows seems to be a nontrivial project. 23:57:15 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: saikat] 23:57:27 it's compatible so far 23:57:31 horrid :) .. but you can now use LarKC lisp.. its supports common lisp now 23:57:41 Part of what makes it nontrivial, of course, is obtaining motivated windows devs. 23:58:00 horrid = the speed diff of SBCL and ABCL 23:58:01 our lisp stuff doesn't touch GUI, so it's not really a big deal 23:58:03 p_l: yeah, you asked about why both the ALU wiki and cliki exist. It's because they serve different purposes really. 23:58:19 Phoodus: larkc is is 10% faster than ABCL 23:58:25 whoo! 23:58:26 :) 23:58:38 i had it at 20% but jit/jvm is touchy 23:58:41 nyef: true 23:58:54 drewc: still, the split is slightly confusing (even now, for me) 23:59:09 the hardest problem we had with windows was the stdio pipe being utterly broken 23:59:18 but by the time i am done i can promis it will be exactly at least 77% faster 23:59:22 stuffing a stupid little C++ pipe echo program inbetween solved that for some reason 23:59:37 but we still have to base64 encode through it 23:59:50 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:59:59 that'll all go away with sockets & threading, though. It was a quick hack