00:00:06 where X is related to Y 00:00:08 interface passing style or context-oriented-programming 00:00:42 solved problem... all you methods dispatch on a hidden dynamic value that represents 'x and y' as far as they are not CLOS classes 00:00:45 that doesn't help me when I actually get something that's already expressed in terms of ordinary methods and I just need to be able to jump to a specific point of the hierarchy 00:00:54 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban1.inka-online.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:00:59 but maybe I'm not seeing it right now 00:01:18 you mean compute-* in the generic function protocol? 00:01:22 drewc: anyway, to go back to your question, I have DEFINE-VTABLE 00:01:33 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:40 ok, can you paste it? 00:02:10 drewc: are you opposed to a bzr/git instead? 00:02:23 nope, a git would be fine 00:02:42 okay, lemme just push it to my github repo 00:03:27 brilliant, that's really the better way innit :) 00:04:21 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:05:45 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:11 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:42 mathrick: which CFFI misdesigns are you referring to ? 00:06:50 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 00:06:54 fe[nl]ix: lack of functional interface 00:07:01 to what ? 00:07:10 FOREIGN-FUNCALL-* are all macros 00:08:36 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:08:46 mathrick: it can't be otherwise given that the host lisps' foreign-funcall are macros 00:08:49 drewc: git://github.com/mathrick/cl-gtk2.git 00:09:03 fe[nl]ix: oh, they are? That sucks then 00:09:28 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:09:44 drewc: or http://github.com/mathrick/cl-gtk2 if you prefer 00:10:08 mathrick: I suspect that establishing a stack for calling a foreign function needs the compiler 00:10:18 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:00 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:12:00 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:04 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:12:14 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:12:14 possibly, but it makes it horribly difficult to implement anything dynamic on top 00:13:03 it's C, what did you expect ? 00:13:09 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:13:12 there's libffi 00:13:16 so you can do it 00:13:56 and you can call arbitrary functions with arbitrary arguments at runtime in lisp too 00:14:43 so there's no conceptual reason it shouldn't be possible to call dynamically-specified C functions with dynamically-specified arguments 00:14:43 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:21 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:16:21 drewc: oh, right, what you want to look at is glib/gobject.foreign-gobject-subclassing.lisp 00:16:24 pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has joined #lisp 00:16:24 -!- pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has quit [Changing host] 00:16:24 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 00:16:31 CALL-GMETHOD and CALL-NEXT-GMETHOD in there 00:17:25 it's possible, you just need to invoke the compiler.... 00:17:56 this is lisp, code is data, macros are functions, cats and dogs getting married oh my! :P 00:17:56 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:38 drewc: overhead of funcalls is measured in ns. Overhead of even the most trivial compilation is ms 00:18:56 there has to be a better way 00:20:10 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-82-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:20:35 and libffi can do this? 00:21:40 drewc: libffi sets up a trampoline and calls the C function 00:21:51 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-11-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:21:51 a small specialized compiler 00:22:14 mathrick: but you gave me a nice idea 00:22:21 and cffi can talk to libffi, right? 00:22:25 no 00:22:27 not now 00:22:37 too dynamic? 00:22:37 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:10 (funcall (ffi "strlen") "foo") => 3 00:23:14 drewc: did you take a look at it? 00:23:17 a new namespace :) 00:23:34 fe[nl]ix: oh, that sounds nice 00:23:49 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:19 -!- fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:26:13 mathrick: i did ... why do the two macros not use the same expander function that is simply parameterized with the differing form? 00:26:22 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 00:26:48 because I was too tired yesterday from thinking about it to do that properly 00:27:02 you even have a comment about it! 00:27:20 it takes a lot less brainpower to write that :) 00:27:37 i mean... if you find yourself copy/pasting... don't you usually think 'wait.. this is probably a function'? 00:27:45 if not, that's a good habit to get into. 00:27:57 functions are a pretty basic way to avoid code duplication :P 00:28:19 -!- bobrown [~user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:54 entropi [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:13 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:29:22 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:29:39 -!- balooga is now known as Balooga 00:29:40 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 00:30:04 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 00:30:32 drewc: have you been here yesterday? 00:31:12 I spent two or three hours trying to refactor it, starting from a completely different approach, and this was just admitting "okay, I can't think about it anymore" 00:31:15 i need to grab my time travellers dictionary to figure that tense out.. hold 00:31:28 right 00:31:37 were you here yesterday? 00:31:42 :) 00:31:50 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:31:58 yup, pretty much all day. 00:32:09 jesu. everybody is full of piss and vinegar today. 00:32:40 a st. patrick's day premonition. :) 00:32:42 Fade: personally, i'm still grumpy about losing an hour.. 00:33:01 the sun is in the wrong place, my brain and body reject it.... 00:33:29 *Fade* cracks a bottle of Tullamore 00:34:40 mathrick: ok, but is 'use a function' the solution to the problem, or is that just a red herring and i'm missing the point? 00:35:26 I think it is, I just didn't feel like fighting double backquotes yesterday 00:35:29 poking fun at brain-farts is one thing, but i was actually trying to help :P 00:35:34 or even using without fighting 00:36:02 also I'm apparently using FOREIGN-FUNCALL-POINTER wrong 00:36:13 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:37:33 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:51 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-67.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:38:06 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:12 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:15 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 00:38:15 drewc: wait, by losing an hour, do you mean DST switch perhaps? 00:38:23 *mathrick* always forgets about these 00:38:49 mathrick: indeed.. my sleep schedule is all disrupted :) 00:39:16 hmm, I'm quite sure we haven't had it yet 00:39:19 i had just gotten back in the groove from the last time they switched it up on me :) 00:39:56 i think you guys are this weekend... not sure 00:40:02 right, it's 28th for us 00:40:15 so next weeked 00:40:17 *end 00:40:20 28th, there you go :) 00:41:30 bloody romans and their time systems... what have the romans ever done for us? 00:42:06 romans actually had a saner system, and I'm not sure they introduced DST 00:42:38 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:42:44 drewc: what have you done for the romans instead ? 00:43:04 drewc: but getting back on track, what about calling next method in there? 00:43:14 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:43:44 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:43:53 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 00:44:46 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:44 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:47:22 rodt3 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:50 X-02 [~schopenha@91.106.161.222] has joined #lisp 00:50:11 -!- rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:15 mathrick: ok, so now i need you to walk me through it... birds eye view of what i'm looking at. 00:50:24 sure 00:50:47 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.54.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:49 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:51:28 drewc: vtable generates the structure describing the layout. I made it also generate methods you can use to implement behaviours, as well as C stubs calling these methods 00:52:17 CALL-NEXT-GMETHOD is meant to be a way to cross the boundary between a C parent class and a CLOS subclass, allowing you to invoke the same method on the parent class structure 00:52:31 CALL-GMETHOD is the same except for the "parent" part 00:52:52 it's supposed simply to invoke the vtable slot on the given object 00:53:23 I haven't got them to work, really, so I dunno if what they expand to is fundamentally correct 00:53:39 so far I've found out I'm using FOREIGN-FUNCALL-POINTER wrong 00:53:46 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:54:02 I blame the superfluous differences from FOREIGN-FUNCALL 00:54:06 either way 00:54:31 the CALL-NEXT-METHOD there is just a fallback, and I don't really know if it's need or even sensible 00:54:40 ok i see. 00:54:49 *needed 00:55:48 so, when i see something like this, it screams 'go meta!' 00:56:55 you're either looking at a custom method combination, or a custom generic function class, or some combination of the two. 00:57:38 hmm 00:57:46 if the generic function knows it's one of these crazy functions, you have a lot more options with regards to both method dispatch and combinations 00:58:04 this is one of the areas of CL I know the least 00:58:22 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:54 http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/repos/filtered-functions/filtered-functions.lisp <--- plus the mop docs should be enough to get you started 00:59:49 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:59:50 drewc: okay, and can you outline how you'd express that as a method combination and/or GF object? 01:00:01 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:18 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:01:18 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:27 -!- Balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:01:33 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 01:03:22 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:03:27 well, basically what you want to do is use the MOP to implement an object system that acts a lot like GObject. All this code you're generating in a CALL-GMETHOD should probably be encapsulated in the generic function that GMETHOD belongs to 01:03:41 or the method object itself 01:03:48 rather than living at each call site 01:04:33 define-vtable should create generic functions and methods of your custom class, and CALL-GMETHOD becomes, well, a method call 01:05:14 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:05:52 since you're in complete control of everything related to method bodies, combination, dispatch, meta this and that, you can make CLOS fit GObject, rather than vice-versa :) 01:06:07 and you get the steal the bits of CLOS that are useful to you, of course. 01:06:08 drewc: hokay. There's already MOP glue to do mirror GObject in CLOS, I'm just not very familiar with it 01:07:15 mathrick: read AMOP if you haven't... and that filtered-function code + the online mop spec is enough to play around. 01:07:28 I have, but it was some time ago 01:07:58 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:08:01 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-109-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:08:02 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:08:05 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 01:08:43 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:15 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:10:00 drewc: okay, thanks a lot for your input 01:13:29 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:13:33 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:14:39 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 01:16:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:17:29 spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-awxtedkabrhqyfxm] has joined #lisp 01:20:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:48 -!- matehat [~matehat@poste120-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:24:21 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:25:53 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:40 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:32:02 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:15 noooomem [~60f17753@gateway/web/freenode/x-gjmtupqbmjpbwirx] has joined #lisp 01:33:30 hey, say I have a list like: '((b a) (c d) (g h)), with first element of each sublist being unique key in the list, how can easily get the value associated with the key? 01:33:47 how can i* 01:33:49 clhs assoc 01:33:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 01:35:03 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.93.35] has joined #lisp 01:36:11 mathrick: no worries 01:36:28 (cdr (assoc ...)) :) 01:37:06 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-109-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:39:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:41:30 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 01:42:34 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:45:45 ok, what if values were NOT unique and I wanted to find all the values of a certain key 01:46:07 Use assoc ... 01:46:15 Ah, all of them. 01:46:16 Zhivago: but assoc just returns the first one 01:46:30 right 01:46:33 <_3b> remove-if-not ? 01:46:36 Well, remove-if-not might be an option. 01:46:49 You could also look at reduce 01:47:10 Or you could just iterate the list 01:48:11 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.93.35] has left #lisp 01:49:14 iterate it is 01:50:41 or destructure it once to a hashtable (-; 01:50:50 *_3b* wonders when (sb-ext:quit) stopped working in sbcl debugger 01:52:06 <_3b> hmm, i guess it works sometimes 01:52:42 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 01:53:50 <_3b> maybe it is only UNDEFINED-FUNCTION that confuses it 01:54:22 <_3b> or ("bogus stack frame") 01:54:57 There's something on the bugtracker already 01:55:04 I don't understand what makes it fail though. 01:55:18 <_3b> ah, cool... don't have to add it to my list of bugs to file then :) 01:56:19 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-114-192.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:56:34 -!- postamar [~postamar@206-248-165-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: postamar] 01:59:15 nunb [~nundan@122.162.147.172] has joined #lisp 01:59:54 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:01:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:01:53 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:02:10 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:03:04 <_3b> pkhuong: looks like it is the eval-in-frame stuff 02:03:44 <_3b> pkhuong: (assuming you don't mean having a bogus stack frame in the first place) 02:04:56 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:06:01 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:06:43 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 02:08:24 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-69-171.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:30 -!- noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:46 noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 02:09:16 <_3b> though i guess that part is a bit odd too, first time i try an unknown function, i get bogus frame, second try with that function, frame is in symbol-function 02:10:11 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:10:13 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:09 chrisb [~chrisb@pool-71-175-253-82.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:44 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:06 has anyone been able to build iolib on sbcl lately? 02:15:32 no idea why, but it builds fine with ccl and barfs with sbcl 02:15:35 fusss: I did that a few hours ago 02:15:51 Maybe the error messages are informative. 02:16:30 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 02:16:45 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-123-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:17:29 -!- ljosa [~ljosa@gmdbc-c50.broadinstitute.org] has quit [Quit: ljosa] 02:17:42 package ISYS is not found 02:18:47 i can probably get it to run, but i am supposed to document every last detail so others can build it from source if needed by. just need as clean a startup as in ccl. 02:19:20 fusss: are you sure you've symlinked all .asd files where necessary ? 02:22:17 site-systems ]$ ln -s ../site/iolib/src/*.asd . 02:22:20 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:22:29 fusss: on 02:22:37 ok 02:22:55 fusss: please paste the error and the backtrace 02:23:28 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:24:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.8.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:26:04 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-12-49.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:24 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.93.35] has joined #lisp 02:27:35 fe[nl]ix: it heard you say that 02:29:58 hi there, if you are to make a web application, which would you prefer to use RDBMS or to store data in files as Paul Graham did? 02:30:20 X-02: rdbms 02:30:26 I'd like to know your personal opinion and its reason.. 02:30:29 more specifically, Postmodern 02:31:43 fusss: thanks, is it better than clsql? 02:32:00 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:32:02 common sense, good engineering practice, not being a moron (with all due respect to Paul), etc. 02:32:27 X-02: it's better than sliced bread 02:32:52 fusss: sliced bread isn't all that easy to query. 02:33:25 X-02: postmodern is rock solid and beautiful 02:33:58 fusss: I can't fix the problem if you don't show me the error 02:34:05 fusss: if it's beautiful, it really apeals to me.. I'll find out 02:34:11 sellout: i usually skip the first and last slices 02:34:47 fe[nl]ix: it fixed "itself". works best without asdf-install :-) 02:35:58 X-02: manipulate database records as first-class CLOS objects. the DAO stuff is nifty. make sure to use :type :serial for slots that you want to have unique IDs, etc. 02:36:41 fusss: I suggest that you use the live version. the release available on cliki is very old 02:37:04 just a few functions you can wrap if and when you want to implement caching. mine uses Redis before Postgres. 02:38:22 fe[nl]ix: iolib-0.6.0.tar.gz 02:39:42 fusss: everytime coming here, I can have a helpful opinion.. thanks a lot 02:39:50 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:54 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:18 X-02: opinions are always helpful. specially mine ;-) you're welcome. 02:42:59 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:44:21 Phoodus [~foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:14 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 02:45:40 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-16-65.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:48:16 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:50:19 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-129-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:51:37 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 02:56:19 -!- chrisb [~chrisb@pool-71-175-253-82.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:56:26 Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has joined #lisp 02:56:53 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:45 I want to loop through a list but also be able to modify current values.. 02:58:50 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:59:00 (loop for x on (list 1 2 3) do (print x)) ? 02:59:17 mapcar? 03:00:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00:34 for example, ( (a b) (c p) (c s)) I just want to go through and replace (c p) with (c) 03:01:05 (c p) with (p) and (c s) with (s) 03:02:40 So, why not use mapcar? 03:06:28 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:28 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:08:00 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:11:13 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:11:44 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:12:17 ok, when I call last? I'm getting back a list.. how can I just get the first value? 03:12:38 last* 03:15:12 first 03:15:58 last returns a cons cell so you can differentiate an empty list from the last car being nil itself 03:16:18 (last nil) vs (last (list nil)) 03:16:20 fuss are you using cl-redis? 03:16:44 -!- krasno [~nathan@c-68-48-197-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:17:28 Harag: yes 03:17:29 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:17:51 how are you finding the performance? 03:18:00 Phoodus: yeah, that cons cell is bothering me, how can I just get the value? 03:18:01 Harag: I can't complain 03:18:11 noooomem: first 03:18:12 lol 03:18:22 Phoodus: oh, thanks 03:18:25 or car, if that floats your boat 03:18:37 (floats your cdr?) 03:19:00 *Phoodus* 's other car is a cdr, yuk yuk 03:19:40 fuss cl-redis was lagging far behind redis native then last time i tested it a few months ago 03:20:32 Harag: there are two cl-redis projects. I am the author of one. 03:20:38 marioxcc` [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 03:20:52 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:20:54 -!- noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:21:09 noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 03:22:43 -!- Guest5910 [~andrew@c-71-233-209-245.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:22:52 whats the url to your cl-redis if i may ask 03:23:04 -!- noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:18 noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 03:23:27 http://www.cliki.net/cl-redis 03:23:30 first link 03:23:35 Ralith_ [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 03:23:39 smithzv_ [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:18 ltriant_ [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:24:21 Harag: i need to push the new version out when i have time 03:24:51 it now supports up to date 1.2.0 commands 03:27:08 ned [~andrew@c-71-233-209-245.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:36 -!- ned is now known as Guest95631 03:27:44 fuss I used the alternative :( 03:27:46 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:28:36 i will give your version a go some time this week 03:30:52 Harag: wait til saturday for best results 03:31:08 k 03:31:35 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.147.172] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:35 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:35 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-90.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:35 -!- Algid [~coderaven@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:35 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:35 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:35 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:31:52 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 03:31:55 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-90.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:56 nunb [~nundan@122.162.147.172] has joined #lisp 03:32:01 Algid [~coderaven@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:03 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 03:32:04 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:32:08 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 03:33:51 fuss did you only implement the api or is there other pleasent surprises in your package? 03:34:11 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:35:48 fuss and if you have some time some time or another i would like to hear more about how you use redis and postmodern together 03:37:24 Harag: He might be more likely to respond if you spell his name correctly. ;) 03:37:42 lot 03:37:46 lol 03:38:24 eish i should not be typing before my first cup of coffee 03:38:56 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-153-44.aei.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:39:32 -!- noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:39:40 fusss: appologies for abbreviating your nick...was not intentional 03:39:40 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 03:39:48 noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 03:40:08 Harag: naked api. but i read up on Ohm and wanted to implement something similar as another layer 03:40:13 Harag: np 03:41:18 Harag: caching calls for the ajax handlers at my new job. and logging user traffick at previous. 03:42:11 i am actually knee deep in rabbitmq atm as i need to get a message queue implemented by tonight ;-( 03:42:13 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:42:15 fusss: ok but what was the role each played 03:42:20 s/message/job/ 03:42:36 Harag: postgres as the absolute backend, and redis as a cache 03:43:22 fusss: so you did not use any of the redis persistance? 03:43:25 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:16 i wrapped up my db access into a few methods, instead of (query (select :name :from 'user :where (:= 'id 200))) I do (get-user id) and memoize arguments into redis 03:44:37 Harag: i had this before persistence :-) 03:44:58 matehat [~matehat@c66.203.214-34.clta.globetrotter.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:50 fwiw, zeromq and its lisp bindings work as advertised :-) 03:46:18 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:20 too bad, it has no persistance out of the box. it's just a library. one needs to throw a few calls to berkeleydb in there perhaps. 03:46:21 fusss: the reason why i am asking is that i am very new to the nosql stuff and could not see how to do reporting on redis 03:47:04 Harag: no such thing. though you can use the new hashes to keep "counters" on the various data you're sending to redis. 03:47:28 so a redis pospgresql solution would help 03:47:41 actually, redis has undergone huge changes. hashes rewrote the game rules. 03:48:12 Harag: i didn't trust either alone. i also keep a log of all db changes. 03:48:38 redis is nice for abusing via ajax; doesn't blink 03:51:10 bob1234 [~bob1234@cpe-76-183-165-57.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:32 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:35 fusss: I have no complaints with postgresql+postmodern but may that is because i have low input and very intensive queries 03:53:34 -!- bob1234 [~bob1234@cpe-76-183-165-57.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:53:36 I was looking at redis to do more dynamic stuff like being able to change the data structure of an app on the fly 03:55:09 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-69-171.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:56:29 Good morning! 03:56:44 wgl [~wgl@c-98-227-91-74.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:18 fusss: i have a "logical db structure" layer that I tried over redis ... the structure is to help querying the data in a sensible way but i never finished it after some performance hickups 03:57:26 morning beach 04:01:20 -!- keepguessing [~7aa764ba@gateway/web/freenode/x-xmsykhbkhnlumyor] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:03:44 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:10 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 04:06:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:08:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:10:10 myu2 [~myu2@KD124211006128.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:12:39 Well, that was an oversight... I need to transfer a 40 gig partition image between two computers, both of which have ssh clients, and neither of which have ssh -servers-. 04:12:44 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:11 And only one of which can be connected to the internet-at-large, at the cost of not being connected to the other one at the time. 04:13:21 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:13:30 nyef: heh 04:13:39 Harag: what sort of querying? 04:13:52 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:14:16 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 04:15:12 fusss: reporting stuff 04:15:24 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:01 but i did not get far 04:16:36 I must admit a bit lost without sql 04:17:22 i was hoping to do sql like queries over redis 04:18:28 but the "extra indexing" I used was exesive 04:19:36 lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-254-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:22 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:00 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-222-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:24:34 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:24:42 Harag: offload your redis stuff to postgres and use a real database with solid OLAP extensions 04:24:49 right tool for the job, etc. 04:26:15 fusss: yeah ... 04:27:06 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:12 but it should be possible to design a simple query lang for nosql stuff to get the best of both worlds 04:27:28 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD124211006128.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:46 i had a little pure lisp project like that but lost the code with a machine crash and have not had the heart or time to try again 04:28:49 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:30:38 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.93.35] has left #lisp 04:32:15 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:28 is it me or are many lispers expats? 04:36:37 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has joined #lisp 04:38:18 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:38:20 Of all the... No sftp? 04:38:34 And no cpio. 04:40:13 nyef: isn't cpio required by posix? 04:40:40 fusss: Rescue environment. 04:41:51 The only reason my situation is as good as it is is because I have a 32-bit debian environment that I set up with debbootstrap a while ago to test 32-bit sbcl builds. 04:42:15 you need a courier; call johny mnemonic! 04:42:45 sorry, didn't mean to be hilarious ;-) 04:44:36 i thought rsync was in debbootstrap's dep list. 04:44:40 no? 04:44:56 Doesn't seem like it. 04:45:03 hrmn 04:45:11 tftp? 04:45:26 Nope, nor ftp. 04:45:45 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:13 sneakernet some xfer packages on a usb key. 04:47:13 -!- marioxcc` [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:51:11 nyef: netcat? 04:51:41 does james anderson come here? 04:51:42 ... Looks like it. 04:51:48 I have netcat. 04:52:35 nyef: use netcat and tell us about it :-D 04:53:01 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:53:35 you might be able to post 2GBs worth of data as url-encoded form input 04:53:40 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 04:54:02 did you say no internet? 04:54:30 No internet. I have a tcp/ip link between the two machines, or I can take it down for the target machine to be able to talk to the internet. 04:55:29 fusss: Cast out of their own countries for their perverted ways. 04:56:24 Trying netcat now. 04:56:34 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:40 Zhivago: nyef you might able to tunnel something over netcat 04:56:49 err 04:57:09 Surely netcat is 8-bit clean? 04:57:17 Yes, I believe so. 04:57:21 You could run ppp over it. 04:57:24 yeah 04:58:06 So, nc -lnp 6160 > /dev/mapper/vg1-root on the server, and cat /dev/mapper/vg1-root | nc 6160 should do the trick... 04:58:17 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:58:51 looks right. 04:59:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fowtolkjawqkhzco] has joined #lisp 05:00:12 And once that's done I can put things back the other way around and rsync my home directory over to my new machine. 05:00:28 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:38 -!- matehat [~matehat@c66.203.214-34.clta.globetrotter.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:49 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C8B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:05:27 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fowtolkjawqkhzco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:32 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B901.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:37 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hlbcbpywjpbmhrzm] has joined #lisp 05:07:30 Eek. This is going to take something like three hours for 40 gigs over 100Base-T, isn't it? 05:08:48 with 100MB, you're probably choking on net speed instead of HD speed 05:08:59 erm, MBit/sec 05:09:21 don't stress, compress! 05:09:30 -!- goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:09:31 don't copy that floppy! 05:09:59 don't stall, reinstall 05:10:04 Stress? Not going to stress, going to shut off the monitor, close the lid of the laptop, and go to bed, hopefully it'll be done by morning... Well, later in the morning. 05:10:25 Don't fight with old hardware, just throw money at Apple. 05:10:36 or you'll have a nice little puddle where your networking hardware used to be ;) 05:10:39 nonesense. 05:10:46 -e 05:10:51 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:10:59 rme: i would love to the throw money at apple, a sack of zimbabwe pennies to the forehead 05:11:04 throw money at Apple, get an obsolete computer for the price of three new ones. great! 05:11:37 Thank you for your help, all, I'm off to bed. 05:11:43 Well, it's what I do... 05:12:09 or throw money at newegg (for .us'ians) 05:12:12 *fusss* needs help running de.setf.amqp ;-/ 05:13:09 I toyed with the idea of getting parts via newegg, but I ended up throwing money at HP. 05:13:56 Fighting with computer pieces parts isn't much fun any more. 05:14:00 Harag: if you want to see a redis data model, i am happy to share my Plance (pronounced "Plan C") 05:15:06 i am gonna have to implement a message queue over redis over the next 3 hours, now that zeromq sucks (no persistence) and rabbitmq sucks ('bad' CL binding, too heavy weight) 05:15:18 fusss: I will take you up on that offer some time this week, today I am trying to get my hunchentoot widget framework out of the door 05:15:39 I haven't had any problem with hardware incompatibility in a long time. Of course, I don't try to get ber top-of-the-line or overclock or any of that 05:15:41 heh 05:15:57 rme: stick to thinkpads and you should be fine 05:16:24 yep thinkpad works for me 05:17:07 it feels weird to install your own stuff with asdf-install :-) 05:17:59 +1 thinkpads 05:20:16 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-249.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:25 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-249.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:04 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:27:52 rme: Well, since the PC is unlikely to survive to next ten years, you'll probably have less and less of that problem. 05:28:40 yet my commodore 64 still works... 05:29:21 Who cares? 05:29:31 heh 05:29:53 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:03 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-114-192.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:35:14 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.74.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:36:08 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.63.177.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 05:39:09 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-100.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:40:41 what do you think will replace PC architecture Zhivago? 05:42:45 .oO(I'm guessing it won't be a lisp machine revival) 05:43:07 I took it to mean that particular physical PC won't survive 10 years 05:43:29 ah 05:44:01 (not sure if that's what he meant, though0 05:44:14 I mean that the PC style machine is pretty well doomed at this point. 05:44:15 change has slowed and it's not out of the question these days 05:44:18 goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:22 Cheap netbooks will kill it. 05:44:57 *Lycurgus* doubts that but does think a new market dominating arch is overdue 05:45:01 You'll end up with computers being like toaster ovens or vcrs, rather than plug-and-play motherboards. 05:45:15 Nah, it's been happening for a couple of years already. 05:45:22 and if it was something like user microprogrammable could accomodate a lisp machine revival 05:45:37 There's just a lot of infrastructure for PC production already in place -- but as the market continues to evaporate so will that. 05:46:04 Then you'll end up with only high end servers left in that style. 05:46:28 Now that $100 tablets are entering the market, it's all over bar the singing lady. 05:46:28 so you think netbooks will be reasonable workstations for typical developers? 05:46:54 ergonomics for one really lean towards having a desktop form-factor 05:46:54 *Lycurgus* doubt's this. 05:47:01 Well, netbooks are just the low end of notebooks. 05:47:09 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:47:18 And, yeah, a decent notebook is a reasonable workstation for a typical developer. 05:47:47 but change is no doubt overdue 05:47:52 laptops's developers don't need specific workstations, xD 05:47:52 my neck wouldn't be able to survive a full day's worth of staring at a screen slightly above my hands 05:48:19 That's why God invented external monitor feeds. 05:48:29 who? 05:48:42 Whichever one you like. 05:48:51 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:54 so your saying the netbook is something you purely dock 05:48:58 *Lycurgus* don't like none of em. 05:49:12 No. I'm saying that for people who want big screens you can attach them. 05:49:17 (in the near future develpments) 05:49:29 That's all standard issue, pretty much -- likewise for decent keyboards. 05:49:35 it's not really the size of the screen, it's the positioning 05:49:36 xinming [~hyy@125.109.74.6] has joined #lisp 05:49:41 right 05:49:47 so you just have a "compu-brick" 05:49:56 *Lycurgus* (and apparently there's only 1 grand unified misconception, so singular is appropos) 05:50:15 What I'm saying is that the days of having a chassis containing exchangable cards is pretty much over. 05:50:15 and if you're talking about outfitting an office, be it developers or MS Word'ers, you're still generally going to be talking about non-portable fixed hardware installations 05:50:33 Well, for printers and file servers, sure. 05:50:50 there's simply too many connectivity options to leave cards out 05:50:56 There's no reason for most office users to have anything other than a netbook with a decent screen and keyboard. 05:51:05 No, there really aren't. 05:51:07 most plug-in stuff nowadays is to add ports to you system 05:51:29 well, I guess gamers and their disposable high-end gfx cards count for a fairly substantial crowd 05:51:44 They'll move across to consoles as PCs get more expensive. 05:51:54 but PCs arne't getting more expensive 05:51:59 They will. 05:52:03 why? 05:52:07 You're just seeing the effect of overproduction at the moment. 05:52:19 Because people aren't buying enough of them. 05:52:28 Look at the computer hardware market trends. 05:53:17 and as the average power user will have some netbooky thing, the market will demand configurable/expandable netbooks 05:53:37 so it's just the same card-swapping, expandable system in a smaller form factor 05:53:42 with the same large-scale production 05:53:42 No. They didn't demand it for notebooks, and they won't demand it for netbooks. 05:53:55 Instead they'll just pick a notebook with suitable builtins. 05:53:56 that's because power users are still on PCs 05:54:40 And they'll stay there until they die, which will be shortly, because no-one cares about them. 05:54:45 um 05:54:57 show me a notebook where you can sensible drive 2 or more external monitors 05:55:11 that right there is a large reason for the desktop to remain 05:55:17 with monitors as cheap as they are now 05:55:47 http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/49847-35-laptop-dual-external-monitor-support 05:56:10 -!- goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:56:19 It isn't a hard problem to solve. 05:56:26 yeah, I guess if analog+digital is good enough 05:56:51 Or just get a widget that pretends that two monitors are one monitor. 05:57:16 I've used USB video cards. They're not very good 05:57:24 goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 05:57:26 I didn't say USB. 05:57:51 if your video card isn't on the system bus, you're taking a real step down in terms of interactive speeds 05:57:53 mega1 [~quassel@53d8277f.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 05:58:10 So, just the video out, and split it ... 05:58:32 um, that's quite a "just" ;) 05:58:52 badkins [~user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:10 how can i become an ubber geek and understand what you're talking about? 05:59:14 -!- badkins [~user@adsl-068-209-204-112.sip.rdu.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:59:16 split what? 06:00:08 <_3b> doesn't one of the new video cable standards support multiple monitors? 06:03:46 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:04:08 fusss: Just hammer nails into your head until enlightened. 06:04:20 -!- noooomem [~60f17753@gateway/web/freenode/x-gjmtupqbmjpbwirx] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:06:50 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:16 Zhivago: you need to get laid 06:08:43 fusss: Sorry, you're not my type. 06:08:49 i dont know about all the rest but if the servers are going the pc format then its kewl...imagine having a whole rack cabinet siting under your desk.... 06:09:14 Harag: I mean the reverse. 06:09:45 -!- ltriant_ [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:09:59 JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:04 Zhivago: heh, at least you're consistent 06:10:10 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-177.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:10:44 http://www.manifest-tech.com/images/ce_products/flash_revolution/Futuresource-PC-Market.jpg <- Here is a nice picture that shows what I mean. 06:12:25 so, an actual lisp question 06:13:03 I've got a macro, which expands to a set of labels functions, and macrolet which expands the body into stuff that uses those functions 06:13:33 depending on what gets passed into the macro, some of the labels functions might not get called, triggering warnings 06:13:44 is there some sort of (declare (ignorable ...)) for function bindings? 06:13:49 clhs ignorable 06:13:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ignore.htm 06:14:00 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:14:13 ah, have to wrap (function ...) around it? 06:14:15 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:27 is that what you read above? 06:14:32 then yes 06:15:21 -!- X-02 [~schopenha@91.106.161.222] has left #lisp 06:16:35 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:19:09 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:19:13 luis` [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has joined #lisp 06:20:55 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:23:21 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:25:45 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:26:16 DraZoro [~drazoro@vc-41-17-200-93.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:26:29 -!- DraZoro [~drazoro@vc-41-17-200-93.umts.vodacom.co.za] has left #lisp 06:27:29 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:28:54 -!- sledge__ [~sledge@24.235.36.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:01 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d8277f.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:37:34 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:38:07 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:39:33 freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.226.211] has joined #lisp 06:39:44 -!- Levenson [~Levenson@91.185.12.110] has left #lisp 06:44:14 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 06:44:29 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:44:38 good morning 06:45:35 xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:47:21 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:47:38 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-177-9-233.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:48 morning nikodemus! 06:49:04 <_rata_> good morning 06:49:41 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.63.177.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:50:41 entropond [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:14 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 06:51:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:53:22 -!- entropi [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:53:37 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:46 -!- goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:00:41 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:01:56 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:09 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:06:17 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:06:50 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:07:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:24 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:14:42 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:06 -!- frontiers [~jackb@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:16:59 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:23 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:18:23 hello nikodemus, slyrus, _rata_ 07:19:12 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 07:21:59 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.29] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:23:27 brushie_ [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:29 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:49 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.188] has joined #lisp 07:25:21 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:26:14 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 07:26:38 -!- brushie__ [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:27:14 goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 *beach* leaves for work. 07:31:07 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.147.172] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:32:23 coast [~gentlymov@ip70-191-255-2.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:32 -!- goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:32:33 -!- coast [~gentlymov@ip70-191-255-2.pn.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 07:37:22 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 07:41:17 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.63.177.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:42:09 -!- JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:45:58 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:46:22 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:28 goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:48 mega1 [~quassel@pool-03203.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:54:48 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:01 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:56:14 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:23 good morning 07:56:38 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:56:42 Axius [~hi@92.82.80.225] has joined #lisp 08:00:48 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:03:00 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.80.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:05:16 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:06:29 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:10:09 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:10:19 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:10:34 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:11:01 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:11:12 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #lisp 08:13:08 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:14:12 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:04 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:46 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-sfrctcnsyiounuaq] has joined #lisp 08:29:10 nikodemus pasted "can someone add this to specbot?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96501 08:30:15 minion: memo for nyef: are you still a person to talk about specbot? see http://paste.lisp.org/display/96501 08:30:15 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 08:31:03 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:35:58 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 08:37:16 Axius [~hi@92.82.80.225] has joined #lisp 08:39:38 nostoi [~nostoi@83.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 08:40:29 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:41:39 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:32 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:43:56 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-sfrctcnsyiounuaq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:45:41 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:49:33 hello mvilleneuve 08:49:39 nunb [~nundan@122.162.147.172] has joined #lisp 08:51:58 abdel [~abdel@ip116-61-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:52:50 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:53:22 antifuchs: around? 08:54:48 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:17 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:58:57 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:59:12 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:59:55 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@83.33.70.157] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:00:15 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.80.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:03:42 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-90.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 09:03:58 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-lrgloxvidcxxyctm] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:05:15 Axius [~hi@92.82.80.225] has joined #lisp 09:07:09 -!- abdel [~abdel@ip116-61-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:11:50 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:16:52 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.80.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:17:30 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:17:41 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-eyzelcfxdmgjxitq] has joined #lisp 09:17:59 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:27 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:31 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:30:01 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:31:14 -!- ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:31:27 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:58 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:14 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:21 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:09 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:51 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:42:40 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:46:17 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 09:46:43 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:18 -!- ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:50 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:51:42 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-249.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 09:52:59 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:15 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:52 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.188] has joined #lisp 09:56:14 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-41-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:00:44 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.153.245] has left #lisp 10:09:52 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has joined #lisp 10:16:37 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:20:17 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:28:03 -!- Phoodus [~foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:13 -!- spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-awxtedkabrhqyfxm] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:33:25 -!- rbancroft [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:34:18 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:29 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:37:04 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.63.177.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:39:51 good morning, Lispland 10:42:05 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:42:54 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:44:49 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:17 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:47:37 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-03203.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:48:23 moin fe[nl]ix 10:49:04 hey fe[nl]ix 10:49:18 hi spiaggia, Lycurgus 10:51:24 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:52:50 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:56 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:54:16 rbancroft [~rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:56 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:56:24 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:02:15 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:02:19 -!- konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:04:09 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:12 Quick hack but perhaps useful to others: http://www.aerique.net/software/cl2md/ (converts a CL file to Markdown) 11:04:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:10:34 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:13:09 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.162.147.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:13:48 poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:53 aerique: hah. i thought that was something like timot's MD2 loader at first 11:16:14 Xach: hmm yeah, perhaps cl2markdown would be a better name 11:24:59 aerique: for literal programming? 11:25:05 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:26:51 guaqua: in a very light weight way perhaps :) 11:27:08 :) 11:28:37 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 11:31:24 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-119-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:32 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-119-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 11:33:26 demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-188-099-119-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:33:47 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:58 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-188-099-119-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 11:34:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:39:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:40:41 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066166.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 11:41:01 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.20] has joined #lisp 11:41:54 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:45 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:52:57 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:53:14 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:49 G'morning all. 11:54:49 nyef, memo from nikodemus: are you still a person to talk about specbot? see http://paste.lisp.org/display/96501 11:56:15 ... That'd interfere with discussion of ancient unix printing systems, wouldn't it? 11:56:48 I'll put it on my queue for once I have my SSH keys back. 11:56:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:56:58 hey, don't forget long play vinyls! 11:57:12 hi 11:58:16 beach, therep 11:58:25 xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:59:00 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:53 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:02:34 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:02:42 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.28.101] has left #lisp 12:11:34 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:31 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:23 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:29 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-82-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:34 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:24:17 mega1 [~quassel@3e44b748.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:24:33 tic: Yes. 12:24:48 spiaggia, do you by chance remember the name of the lovely kittost we had in Hr? 12:25:55 'fraid not. Sorry! 12:26:17 Alright, thanks. Maybe I can find out. 12:27:36 Harag [~Harag@41.56.28.101] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 Try calling Mllans Ost in Malm. 12:30:22 *nod* thanks. friend of mine wondered about Swedish kittostar(en?) 12:30:30 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:05 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:31:37 I don't even know what "kittost" is. 12:32:00 tic: oh, such fancyness! what's wrong with the commie Husmansost anyway? ;) 12:32:42 tic: Are you perhaps talking about "fjllan frn sterlen"? 12:32:58 spiaggia, sounds familiar, yes! 12:33:17 hypno, good staple food, I guess. 12:33:24 tic: it's a copy of "la fiance des Pyrenes". 12:33:38 Right. 12:34:01 [modulo my spelling errors] 12:34:34 tic: It is made buy a guy initially from Stockholm but who now runs a farm in sterlen. 12:35:39 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36:11 cat on toast 12:36:30 Not quite. :-) 12:38:43 tic: Oh, and "fjlla" is sknska for "girlfriend" or fiancee. 12:39:30 That helps. Didn't know that. 12:41:00 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:44:58 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:28 michalk [~michalk@chello089073134224.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 12:47:30 rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:46 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:48:17 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:48:32 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 12:50:46 -!- rodt3 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:51:09 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:51:58 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:52:37 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:19 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:57:33 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has joined #lisp 13:01:35 -!- noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:28 -!- ^boris [syztm@god.vs.the-devil.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:36 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:03:16 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-253-101.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:58 noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 13:07:18 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@81-20-151-174.ipv4.ee] has joined #lisp 13:07:45 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:13:28 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 13:15:25 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:18:22 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:19:30 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:22:24 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:56 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:23:22 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 13:23:36 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-29-14.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:28:39 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 i have a logical pathname question! 13:33:55 any volunteers? 13:33:58 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:34:12 *p_l* observes masses running away 13:34:22 nikodemus: what's up? 13:34:32 *Xach* has been studying lpns, though not in the past couple weeks 13:34:45 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066166.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:37:21 nikodemus pasted "legal, illegal, or required?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96508 13:38:32 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-136-50.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:41:19 nikodemus: sorry, don't know offhand, and don't have the time to help investigate. good luck! 13:42:22 -!- Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42:39 nikodemus: By translate-pathname, the NIL device component in the translation is substituted by the device component from converting the logical pathname namestring or pathname designator "TEST:FOO.TEXT" to a pathname. 13:42:42 Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:51 the issue is that in sbcl logical pathnames always have :device :unspecific, but physical namestrings normally parse with :device nil 13:43:11 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:43:20 which leads to logical -> physical translations having :device :unspecific 13:43:51 Yeah, well, it's trivial to show that sbcl pathnames are non-compliant. 13:44:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:44:17 question is, is there foreseeable breakage for making lpn have :device nil? 13:44:23 (Still within the spirit from which the pathname spec was derived, but the pathname spec badly damages that spirit.) 13:45:20 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:51 Okay, the device component of an LPN is always :unspecific. 13:46:00 Per 19.3.2.1. 13:46:10 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:46:51 ok 13:47:00 clhs 19.3.2.1 13:47:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_cba.htm 13:47:35 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:07 And the question of what values are valid for pathname-device is implementation-dependent. 13:49:03 gah 13:49:11 i'll record this as a bug and leave for later 13:49:36 (i ran into this while cooking up a testcase for the load-logical-pathname-translations patch) 13:49:56 ...EQUAL saying NIL due to device mismatch :/ 13:49:57 Heh. -devices- can be arbitrary lisp objects if the implementation allows, but hosts must be strings, lists of strings, or :unspecific, and may never be NIL. 13:50:25 (I'll say that again: pathnames must -always- have their host slot filled.) 13:50:34 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:51:03 yes 13:51:10 otherwise how do you know how to interpret the rest of it? 13:51:26 Also, SBCL's habit of returning a UNIX-HOST structure for PATHNAME-HOST is wrong. 13:52:33 Hey, speaking of the test suite, what's up with those two package tests that are set (:fails-on :sbcl)? 13:52:41 nyef: actually, that's contradicted elsewhere 13:52:47 Xof: Oh? Where? 13:52:49 can't remember 13:53:19 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:53:48 -!- michalk [~michalk@chello089073134224.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:08 I seem to recall there being some way to -use- an arbitrary host object, but there's no way to obtain one from a pathname. 13:55:25 myu2 [~myu2@KD125029047221.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:56:22 nyef: your mention of arbitrary lisp objects as host made me think of internal VFS :D 13:57:00 Ah, right, a "logical host" is of implementation-dependent nature... But it's still referenced by name. 13:57:07 (And said name is a string.) 13:57:27 Anything that takes a logical host designator can take a logical host... 13:58:38 Xof: The only place I find an implementation-dependent host object to be valid is with logical hosts, and I don't find an implementation-independent way to obtain such an object. 13:59:17 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:59:37 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:01:28 so -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/540263 14:01:33 Right, and the only thing that appears to take a logical host designator is logical-pathname-translations, which only takes one as a parameter. 14:01:42 p_l: We should -have- an internal VFS! 14:01:56 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 14:02:48 p_l pasted "abuse of logical pathname hosts" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96510 14:03:09 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:47 p_l: No, it'd have to be a physical host, so :host '("9fs" "IP" "127.0.0.1"). 14:04:27 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:20 nyef: or :host (make-host :protocol '9p2000 :host "127.0.0.1") ;-) 14:05:22 nikodemus: Either it's damned inconvenient by spec, or sbcl is doing something wrong. 14:05:37 p_l: Only if make-host returns a list of strings. 14:06:02 p_l: As the :host argument to make-pathname is required to be a valid pathname host. 14:06:14 nyef: returning a list of strings and ensuring that apriopriate translations are in place :) 14:06:41 ... Maybe, but that's an upper-layer thing, really. 14:06:58 nyef: sure. 14:07:07 it was just an oddball idea ;) 14:07:17 Not that oddball. 14:07:28 Consider the utility: Custom filesystems in lisp. 14:07:49 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44b748.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:13 also possibility of using FUSE drivers straight from lisp ;) 14:08:17 nyef: i suspect the best thing would be to make translate-pathname drop :device :unspecific from lpns it translates 14:08:19 That too. 14:08:42 nikodemus: I'd happily file a bug against such behavior. 14:08:46 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:09 "additional implementation-defined translations of case or file naming conventions might occur, especially when from-wildcard and to-wildcard are for different hosts. " 14:09:10 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:09:19 hello 14:09:25 so we could call it that (from logical to physical host) 14:09:26 Hrm... 14:09:55 _file_naming_conventions_ -- stretch to device? 14:09:57 hi nikodemus & nyef 14:10:04 hi fe[nl]ix 14:11:19 Still don't like it, especially if it's done unconditionally. 14:12:24 nikodemus: i hope this interest in lpns means that you will review michaelw's super awesome lpn patch 14:13:45 Xach: i'm merging it. just adding a disclaimer to docstring and writing a test-case 14:14:01 the issue at hand i noted while writing the test case :) 14:14:03 hooray! 14:14:24 So, it occurs to me that there's a special note somewhere in the spec about :unspecific vs. nil pathname-device components and print-read consistency, and that the more conformant change might be to change the behavior of PATHNAME instead of TRANSLATE-LOGICAL-PATHNAME. 14:16:45 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:12 k4jd095b_ [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 14:17:25 Ah! That's how you can get a logical host object. PARSE-NAMESTRING is permitted to return one. 14:17:26 udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-hnevaiwagzsvmvkn] has joined #lisp 14:18:15 Also means that you can't portably-and-safely pass the host result from parse-namestring to make-pathname. 14:19:26 Oh, oops, my mistake, that's an input, not an output. :-/ 14:19:38 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@81-20-151-174.ipv4.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:20:11 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-eyzelcfxdmgjxitq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:36 -!- noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:21:11 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:22:17 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:22:23 Hrm... Per 19.2.2.5, a pathname can be constructed with a NIL host. 14:23:20 Per MAKE-PATHNAME, the host argument must be a valid physical pathname host. 14:23:29 Per the glossary, a valid physical pathname host may not be NIL. 14:24:42 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:26:18 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:27:14 nyef: see the comment in that but re changing physical pathname parsing instead 14:27:20 s/but/bug/ 14:30:05 Hey, how do you represent COM1: as a pathname? 14:30:13 Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:53 i don't? 14:31:11 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:11 or a magic :device, maybe? 14:32:19 Well, first of all, can we even represent a pathname with explicitly no directory, filename, type or version? 14:32:58 I guess they'd all have to be :unspecific... 14:33:17 nunb [~nundan@122.161.218.89] has joined #lisp 14:34:23 wow, an acual use-case for :unspecific! :) 14:34:26 The problem then becomes the device namespace colliding the logical host namespace. 14:35:08 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:36:15 At least with UNC filespecs, we can rely on them starting with \\ or //, a hostname, and then the first component after that is the share, which presumably is the device... 14:36:52 "#p\"\\\\\\\\\"" 14:36:56 No, that doesn't work for shared printers... 14:36:57 *Xof* <- exploded brain 14:37:11 nyef: COM1: ? 14:37:28 p_l: Or any other DOS device, really. 14:37:45 :host :device "COM1" 14:38:03 p_l: Yeah, now make a namestring that'll parse to that. 14:38:19 ":COM1:" 14:38:22 \\.\COM1 ? 14:38:32 I don't remember the full path 14:38:41 (might require changes to parse-namestring :-) 14:38:45 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:11 Mmm... Maybe we should defer for a while longer doing the right thing with pathnames? 14:40:00 nyef: there would be possibly *big* fragments of OS-specific code :/ 14:40:07 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-87-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:40:10 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 14:40:32 Yeah, hence deferring it a bit longer. 14:40:40 includign possibly what would be basically giant translation tables 14:40:55 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:40:58 "Pathnames are hard, let's go shopping." 14:41:19 can a lpn translation be dynamic? 14:41:40 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:41:47 Dynamic how? 14:41:57 as in, if not found, call some lambda 14:41:58 p_l: no. 14:42:07 Not portably, but... 14:42:15 nyef: any funny syntax for lisp namestrings is fine, as long as the native syntax is understood for native namestrings 14:42:22 Xach: would allowing such thing in an implementation break spec? 14:42:25 p_l: yes. 14:42:35 p_l: well, i don't know. sorry for the quick answer. 14:42:44 they could even pathnames without namestrings! 14:43:01 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:43:16 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:44:06 Xach: From what I see in HyperSpec, it shouldn't break the spec, but code *depending* on it would be unportable 14:44:18 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:44:46 -!- k4jd095b_ [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:44:59 k4jd095b_ [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 14:45:39 otoh, possibility for os-independant "open a file and get a serial port" api is nice... 14:45:57 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:11 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 14:46:58 nyef: how about SYS:PORTS;COM1? 14:47:12 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:47:32 Hrm... More likely SYS:DEVICES;, since you can have NUL and a few others. 14:47:37 CONIN$, for example. 14:48:03 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-129-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:48:14 mind, i think i prefer Xof's ":COM1:" syntax 14:48:36 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD125029047221.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:50:22 SYS:WINDOWS;COM1 ? ;P 14:50:22 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:50:53 and what about DOS? 14:50:59 or maybe SYS:WINDOWS; 14:51:06 stassats`: go on, port SBCL to DOS :P 14:51:17 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 14:51:18 (or other full-featured implementation) 14:51:39 clisp? 14:51:44 Could be done. You'd need an extender, of course... 14:52:32 still, we are talking about kinda unportable stuff 14:53:46 *stassats`* got bitten by open :if-exists :rename 14:55:55 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 14:56:19 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@81-20-151-174.ipv4.ee] has joined #lisp 14:57:09 -!- bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:00:53 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:49 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@119.96.226.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:12:39 ok folks. i would like to organize the official 2010 Friendly Lisp Games Challenge 15:12:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:13:04 how do i organize an event? 15:14:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:17:39 define "Friendly" 15:18:36 the tomatoes thrown will be fresh 15:18:52 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:52 p_l: not hostile 15:19:32 only friendly lisps may participate. no newlisp or beelisp 15:20:47 newbee lisp 15:21:11 *adeht* thinks this was all an elaborate joke 15:23:04 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:07 "Friendly", as in "the competitors are expected to assist each other"? 15:28:03 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 15:28:15 Hi, rayservers 15:28:21 hey bill 15:30:44 dto: what's the target audience? 15:31:17 existing game makers who use lisp? lisp hackers who are new to games? game makers who are new to lisp? 15:31:19 nyef: friendly as in, there is no winner, everyone just posts their game and a postmortem, then we provide feedback and tips to each other 15:31:41 nikodemus: probbaly the first two 15:31:57 the 3rd seems a bit challenging to make happen 15:32:05 i would rather make the audience players 15:32:11 (plus the lispgamers) 15:32:19 we ran this last year and had 2 entries, but we might have more this year 15:33:44 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:49 apropos games: i found sources to OZ (and old interactive fiction system) squirreled aways as part of tests for cmucl in the cmu ai repo the other week :) 15:34:34 somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:35:04 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:03 link? 15:37:18 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.161.218.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:51 nikodemus: interesting 15:38:57 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/clisp/OldFiles/benchmarks/oz/ and http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/clisp/benchmarks/oz/ 15:39:16 here are my own contributions to the lisp gamesworld. http://dto.github.com/notebook/games.html 15:42:10 now that's odd. ripping the darwin dlshim out of the build introduces the symbol :|| into the core 15:43:19 or rather, would introduce if a zero-length name in a symbol didn't break !UNINTERN-INIT-ONLY-STUFF 15:43:35 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:46:36 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-216-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:03 hah, from interaction between darwin-langinfo and removing the dlhim -> "" as the name of the default external format 15:49:16 maybe darwin-langinfo can die too... 15:49:59 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 15:50:02 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 what do people do for efficiently reading blocks of data off STREAM where STREAM could be a network stream? READ-SEQUENCE doesn't appear to have the desired semantics; are you reduced to DOTIMES + READ-BYTE in such cases? 15:50:49 what does read-sequence do wrong? 15:50:57 foom: Blocks. 15:51:21 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:51:27 froydnj: sb-vector-io 15:51:32 surely it actually recursively calls serve-event, right? :) 15:51:58 nikodemus: new response on c.l.l: sb-write-my-code-for-me 15:51:59 froydnj: Last time I had the problem, I pulled the file descriptor, used sb-unix:unix-read, and did my own buffering. 15:52:10 foom: That's actually worse. 15:52:23 nyef: Indeed. 15:52:30 nyef: heh 15:52:43 nikodemus: but yes, that'd be one option 15:53:18 hm, wait. it's not on github 15:53:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has left #lisp 15:53:19 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:53:41 clearly sb-vector-io is Lame Software for not being on github. 15:54:09 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:11 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.180] has joined #lisp 15:56:22 there: http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-vector-io 15:56:39 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hlbcbpywjpbmhrzm] has left #lisp 15:57:11 heh 15:57:11 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has joined #lisp 15:58:20 So, it occurs to me that the one use-case that serve-event doesn't suck for is having a REPL in the foreground while still dealing with some non-blocking background task such as talking to X or a network protocol. 15:58:41 And that's it, and everything else can and should be dealt with a little more directly. 15:58:44 indeed. that's probably serve-event's raison d'etre 15:59:40 nikodemus: did you write that in the five minute interval, or did you have it lying about? 15:59:54 Yes, but without green threads it's also the -only- thing you can do safely. All of your background tasks essentially have to return in a timely fashion, not recurse through serve-event, etc. 16:00:29 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-79-56.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01:44 And even then, you can't deal with X because you can end up hosed from requiring a server round-trip. 16:02:34 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-124-62.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:48 i've had it for ~2 years 16:03:10 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:21 What's the name of that recently spoken of console music player in CL? 16:04:45 minion: shuffletron 16:04:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``shuffletron''. 16:04:58 boo. 16:05:40 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:59 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:08:13 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 16:08:26 Bloody network manager. 16:08:30 froydnj: thx 16:08:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:09:12 ... How do I tell network manager to temporarily leave eth0 alone? 16:09:48 *froydnj* turns off network manager because it was too stupid to do what he wanted 16:10:12 What, after all the trouble I went through to get it working in the first place? 16:10:47 (As a side note, it's pretty sad that it's easier to persuade windows to do what I want with a network than to persuade linux.) 16:11:00 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:17:12 Axius [~hi@109.97.59.198] has joined #lisp 16:18:23 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 16:19:03 hi 16:19:39 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755964.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:46 yeah, networkmanager never worked for me.. I use a lisp "script" to connect/disconnect 16:22:07 nikodemus: how about using POSIX vectored IO when available? (for sb-vector-io?) 16:22:42 nyef: because you decided to use NetworkManager, which seems determined to take linux back to XP level, config wise. 16:23:00 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:23:11 p_l: But even on XP it's trivial to just set up a fixed configuration for a port. 16:23:35 nyef: NetworkManager historically was not supposed to support anything other than autoconfig 16:23:42 srsly 16:23:42 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.59.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:23:49 ... Idiocy. 16:24:07 nyef: Tell me more. I call that UBANTO ;-) 16:24:32 (not as a slight to serious users, but Ubuntu and RH started to annoy me with their "improvements" 16:24:35 ) 16:25:16 Hrm... 16:25:45 nyef: personally, I'm using wpa_supplicant directly + manual netprofiles in Arch 16:25:58 Okay, looks like if I manually configure an interface before connecting the cable, it does what I want. 16:26:17 Yeah, I was using a wpa_supplicant + manual profiles on my last box, but that got tedious fast. 16:26:51 nyef: I found I don't really have a problem with that, udev, wpa_supplicant and some nice scripts do it right 16:26:53 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:21 matehat [~matehat@c66.203.214-34.clta.globetrotter.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:23 Now to read up on rsync... 16:27:27 -!- matehat [~matehat@c66.203.214-34.clta.globetrotter.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:27:50 matehat [~matehat@c66.203.214-34.clta.globetrotter.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:30 p_l: not part of the stuff i needed when i wrote it 16:30:54 no principal objections if you want to add it in 16:31:28 readv/writev seems to be little known functions... 16:32:26 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:30 if you only have one vector & stream at a time, you don't have any use for them 16:32:55 and unless you are dealing with multiple connections in a single thread in a server, that is rarely the case 16:33:10 not that *that* in itself is unusual... 16:33:36 well, writev/readv are rather for slightly different meaning of vectored I/O 16:33:59 as in "pass an array and let OS deal with writing it fast" 16:35:22 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-133-183.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:14 huh, i seem to have misremembered what they do 16:37:06 -!- matehat [~matehat@c66.203.214-34.clta.globetrotter.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:14 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 16:37:16 but i don't see how writev for a single vector can be a win over write? 16:38:36 hmm... maybe not for this case, but for certain cases of pinned vectors it might be faster (as it does scatter-gather dma) 16:38:58 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-133-183.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:21 -!- udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-hnevaiwagzsvmvkn] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:23 olaf` [~user@62.96.71.161] has joined #lisp 16:44:18 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 Hello, i'm using emacs on win32, when I press AltGr emacs interprets it as Control Meta, anyone hash the same problem? 16:45:54 arthurk86 [~ambonyin@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 16:46:17 olaf`: You should probably ask on #emacs. 16:47:20 they don't konw the answer 16:47:31 hello 16:48:22 hi arthurk86 16:48:32 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: .UPP.] 16:48:34 how can I resolve this problem: (file-error "cannot open load file" "slime-indentation") 16:49:13 add slime contrib directory to load-path? 16:49:33 nikodemus: it's done automatically 16:49:52 arthurk86: do you have slime-indentation.el in the slime/contrib/? 16:50:00 no 16:50:38 do you have contrib/ directory at all? and how old is your slime? 16:50:45 where can i find the directory slime/contrib 16:51:09 where you put your slime 16:51:34 in file called ".emacs" 16:52:03 so, you can have directories in that file? 16:52:50 no 16:53:01 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:53:29 did you install slime? 16:54:17 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 16:54:36 yeah 16:54:40 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:55:05 how? 16:55:13 yeah i was find the directory of slime 16:55:17 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:55:40 there isn't the file slime-indentation 16:56:06 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:08 in the contrib subdirectory? 16:59:31 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:33 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:34 yeah , i m there 16:59:48 but i don't have slime-identation 16:59:57 did you get it from CVS? 17:00:14 i don't remember 17:00:32 did it work before? 17:00:36 can you send me your slime-identation file 17:01:11 just get it from CVS 17:01:18 ok 17:01:29 thx very much 17:01:34 cvs -d :pserver:anonymous:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/slime/cvsroot co slime 17:04:33 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:23 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:05:24 zoe [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:59 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:58 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 17:08:18 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:09:51 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.116.248] has joined #lisp 17:11:37 -!- olaf` [~user@62.96.71.161] has left #lisp 17:11:40 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.116.248] has left #lisp 17:11:49 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-136-50.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:50 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:13:49 thx 17:13:51 -!- arthurk86 [~ambonyin@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has left #lisp 17:13:52 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:57 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:58 pit147 [~pobameme@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 17:16:58 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:05 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 17:18:16 nikodemus: Re LOAD-LOGICAL-PATHNAME-TRANSLATIONS; If you copied the docstring into the mail, the docstring contains a typo 17:18:30 I'll latter look at your condition-wait patch 17:18:34 later* 17:19:53 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:21:52 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:57 michalk [~michalk@chello089073134224.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 17:21:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:23:09 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:23:11 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 17:25:25 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-242-28.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:30:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:46 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36:23 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:37:19 hello folks 17:37:55 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:01 hi Fare 17:38:02 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:38:20 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:28 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:35 fe[nl]ix, hi 17:45:33 -!- pit147 [~pobameme@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:35 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:47:16 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 17:49:08 is there a tilde-directive for format that will let me print a string word-wrapped, like (format t "~a" "[ a really long string without newlines in it ]") 17:49:48 Yes, no, kind of 17:50:03 It's a run-time string? 17:50:07 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:50:44 yes 17:51:17 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:26 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-100.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:52:26 (format t "~@<~{~A~^v~:_~}~:>" (split-sequence #\Space string)) 17:53:01 perhaps rather (split-sequence-if #'whitespacep string) 17:53:15 wow that looks like perl or something 17:53:19 thanks! 17:53:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:53:46 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:53:53 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 17:54:05 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@81-20-151-174.ipv4.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:54:07 the "v" in the format string is a typo, it shouldn't be there 17:54:26 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:59 clop: It's not a very good resemblance, perl has more $ characters. 17:56:33 *Xach* is on the verge of using ~ as an escape character in another string context soon 17:56:57 Xach: Oh, use % instead, just to confuse the poor C programmers and elispers. 17:56:57 writing \\ all the time makes #\\ too annoying a char to me. 17:57:07 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 17:57:13 ball [~ball@adsl-99-142-38-200.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:22 tcr: that solution doesn't preserve multiple spaces 17:57:34 feature, right? 17:57:39 Well, it's been most of a week, but I finally have a running SBCL again. ^_^ 17:58:40 tcr: I could swear there was a solution that didn't involve splitting the string, but I can't find it right now. 17:58:47 I'm not aware of any Lisp implementation of Knuth's algorithm for word wrapping.. so here's a nice opportunity for you clop 17:59:05 luis`: there is, apply + format, but it will not play well with ~ in the string 17:59:07 ... Wasn't there something about that in one of the typesetting or editing packages? 17:59:15 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:59:29 probably not apply, but format and concatenate 17:59:34 tcr: ah, right. 18:00:08 I think I have one lying around somewhere 18:00:22 luis`: what happened with your interrupt story? 18:01:09 adeht: IIRC rahul implemented it in defdoc 18:01:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:02:15 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 18:02:40 i'm glad nothing in cl:format conflicts with the ssh escape sequence! 18:03:04 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:04:23 -!- ball [~ball@adsl-99-142-38-200.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 18:05:57 dlowe pasted "word wrapper" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96517 18:06:12 fe[nl]ix: looks like it.. thanks 18:06:17 it's not pretty but it works 18:07:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/91338 has some wrap-string hack 18:08:24 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:09:56 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BFAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 18:12:05 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:12:05 tcr: not much. I implemented a prototype using a pipe plus a global flag wake up and request cancellation. Seemed like the safest approach in end. 18:12:16 -!- luis` is now known as luis 18:12:16 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:00 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:26 what was the problem again? 18:14:19 found an interesting thread about it http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/81dfd8a16dfa9b41/f326429a0d3b5309 18:15:56 -!- Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:14 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:16 cool thanks 18:16:26 well, not about this specific issue, but about the sorts of problems around process-kill and process-interrupt 18:16:35 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:17:01 Axius [~hi@109.97.44.16] has joined #lisp 18:17:27 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17:29 tcr: I was looking for a decent way to cancel a thread gracefully, something like Java's InterruptedException. 18:19:27 My thread is either processing some sort of input or waiting in mp:wait-for-input-available. It can check for a global abort flag sometime in that loop but the problem was how to make it exit from wait-for-input-available early. 18:19:58 select! 18:20:06 luis: can you wait on multiple FDs? 18:20:16 but yea, java's solution is pretty nice 18:20:34 right, like I said above, I ended up using a dummy pipe 18:20:48 meh, classic and robust. 18:21:04 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:22:01 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:22:02 so in Java, interrupting a thread is safe? 18:22:04 one of my coworkers is toying with the idea of using process-interrupt though. Basically something like this: (loop (wait) (with-delayed-interrupts (process))). 18:22:54 tcr: in Java a bunch of functions poll for isInterrupted() (or something like that) and signal InterruptedExceptions 18:23:08 ok that's what deadlines do in sbcl 18:23:24 kind of 18:23:55 got a pointer to the docs? 18:23:59 not really. deadlines are purely time-based -- no polling 18:24:22 right, not the same thing then. 18:24:36 yeah I meant sb-sys:*periodic-polling-function* 18:24:58 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:25:11 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:25:25 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:54 you could check there a flag which may be set via interrupt-thread, and if the flag is true a condition is signalled, and upper level could then handler-case on that condition 18:26:25 though I'm not sure if ppf is only called in places where it's safe to unwind 18:26:31 tcr: that could work. But it would be nicer to check for such flags only after an interrupt has actually occured. 18:27:55 I'm not getting what you mean there -- if you only check after an interrupt has occured, you know that an interrupted occurred already? 18:28:31 tcr: system calls are aborted when a signal is received are they not? 18:28:41 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-mfpuapiyhllubnro] has joined #lisp 18:28:50 and then, iirc, ppf is only involved in serve-event, not in decode-timeout which only signal deadlines, so ppf is not invoked in condition-wait or get-mutex. 18:28:53 luis: depends on syscall, I think. most I/O is 18:29:26 now that nikodemus is here, hopefully I'll get an answer to what ppf is supposed to be there for 18:31:14 rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:21 p_l: right. Seems like a good time to check for an "interruption/cancellation" flag when such syscalls are aborted. 18:31:23 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 18:31:45 I assume that's how Java implementations do it. I haven't checked. 18:32:07 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-69-171.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:36 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:38 luis: Right, I'd assume they use a signal to interrupt the syscall, and then check for interruption and loop if not interrupted. 18:33:41 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.44.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:34:29 is something like this implementable in SBCL or does it do any signal trickery that would collide? 18:34:36 as long as you set your signal handler without SA_RESTART, you get that behavior automatically 18:34:57 you just need to make sure that all your IO functions that you *don't* want to allow to be interrupted have an EINTR loop around them 18:35:03 luis: if I/O was interrupted by signal, read() returns EINTR 18:35:03 tcr: sorry, dinnertime 18:35:19 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:35:28 is there a way to render an external link with cl-typesetting? 18:35:31 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-178-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:47 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 luis: but it only gives EINTR if it was interrupted before it could read anything 18:37:26 p_l: sure, so? the java version only guarantees that it invokes the InterruptedException when it blocks in one of the designated places 18:38:45 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:39:18 if you want to check for interruptedness when not doing one of those operations, just check interrupted() 18:39:52 plus, it only raises an InterruptedException upon Thread.interrupt() not any random signal, right? 18:40:46 well, signals aren't part of Java, so who knows. 18:40:47 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:40:48 But I suspect so 18:41:49 xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:41:52 luis: since you're trying to interrupt a single thread, why not just use a signal handler in the thread? 18:42:21 p_l: I want it to exit gracefully too, perform some cleanups, etc. 18:43:41 luis: so? 18:44:10 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:44:22 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 18:44:48 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-242-28.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 18:45:06 p_l: well, I'd have to control *when* the thread is interrupted using locks or without-interrupts, no? 18:45:20 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:56 not sure, right now I'm checking details in manuals 18:48:03 p_l: what if the thread is running foreign code? what if it's running the cleanup forms of an unwind-protect? 18:48:37 Oh, just give up and go for general PCLSRing already. :-P 18:50:39 as opposed to doing an InterruptException-like thing or what? 18:51:24 luis: well, really speaking... if the foreign code doesn't set its own signal handler, it its own fault :P 18:51:35 borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:38 (for long running code) 18:51:48 -!- borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 18:52:31 you already mentioned that you could check for a flag - why not have the signal set to CONT behaviour with handler changing the event flag? 18:54:04 p_l: because mp:wait-for-input-available doesn't return after an mp:process-interupt. 18:54:26 -!- poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:54:46 *interrupt 18:55:10 hm I do not get the point of the call to kill-safely in run-interrupt in target-thread.lisp 18:55:26 In particular, because it happens before actually processing the current interruption 18:56:21 oh signalling is async! 18:58:45 tcr: can be sync. as well 18:59:09 except for NMIs, of course 19:00:47 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.6] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@ip72-210-76-249.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:18 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-119-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-119-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:06:15 Could you elaborate? 19:06:37 tcr: you can have most signals delivered in a queue 19:06:53 man 2 signalfd 19:07:25 moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:10:28 '|i can't believe i'm allowed to the this :)| <---- i still get a kick out of that. 19:10:35 to do this* 19:11:39 heh 19:12:54 drewc: what about '|| ; Not sure if I wrote it correctly 19:13:12 p_l: why the ||s? 19:13:26 luis: just in case 19:13:41 yeah, shouldn't need the ||'s, unless ANSI got back together when i wasn't looking 19:13:52 drewc: still, now add spaces to that :D 19:14:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 maybe he wanted to preserve case? 19:15:21 tcr: I had cases where the implementation barfed on me when fed without || 19:15:28 don't have a testcase at the moment, though 19:15:48 sbcl is happy without the || 19:15:55 Yes that's if their reader does not make unicode character proper constituents 19:15:56 just checked 19:16:45 I think I had some issue with CCL 1.3 and emacs-w32 19:16:59 lol i think i will use that next time i dont know wat to call a variable heh 19:17:15 (BLOCK  ... ) <-- haha 19:17:42 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-178-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 19:18:05 does that symbol say anything? 19:18:39 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:19:06 Fade: the symbol means "My mysterious symbol" (though I'm not sure if I didn't miss  after ) 19:19:32 I haven't refreshed my grammar in long time 19:19:54 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:19:56 http://translate.google.com/?hl=en#ja|en| 19:19:58 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:20:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:21:10 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-90.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:19 how to say "who put it here is out of his mind"? 19:22:44 that's wild. 19:23:01  <--- sounds okay to me... 19:23:12 (for "who put it there is mad") 19:23:20 I wonder if there's a lot of lisp being written in chinese in china. 19:23:56 nope. I lost "put it there" 19:24:11 *Xach* wonders if it's as much lisp as is written in german in germany 19:25:00 *stassats`* goes to write some russian lisp 19:25:08 any masochists out there doing SOAP in CL? 19:25:32 tritchey: fusss has been talking about it a lot, lately. 19:25:33 tritchey: fusss is constantly blathering about such things 19:26:35 tritchey: I believe fusss mentioned he was doing soap in cl. 19:26:47 fusss tends to land jobs where he has to bridge together PHP and Lisp and tends to be (not happy) camper regarding XML-RPC and SOAP ;-) 19:27:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.94.1] 19:27:35 Axius [~hi@109.97.44.16] has joined #lisp 19:27:43 I can't imagine anyone being in the "SOAP" "Happy Camper" intersection 19:27:43 but he still seems to do it 19:28:07 I hate soap, but fusss was saying he liked it yesterday. 19:28:11 Phoodus [~foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:12 i guess it takes all kinds. 19:28:45 Fade: SOAP can be likeable. It however requires that certain types of developers are absent in the chain of interfaces 19:29:30 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-178-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:40 the two soap related projects I was embroiled in were a nightmare of interop problems. 19:30:04 If you end up having someone fond of generating interfaces by means of Java source -> Schema generator, then you're screwed 19:30:16 yeah 19:31:06 I've got some salesforce integration I'm working on, so it is all against their API 19:31:31 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32:06 it's all java on the other side? 19:32:55 unfortunately I know jack about how salesforce implements their stuff. 19:35:06 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:37:12 Most of my problem with SOAP has nothing to do with SOAP and everything to do with the utterly stupid framework for exposing a web service that I usually get roped into dealing with. 19:38:57 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:22 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:42:38 Evet [~Evet@unaffiliated/evet] has joined #lisp 19:42:58 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:43:13 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.44.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:43:43 Nihil ex nihil. (can't set SYMBOL-VALUE of NIL) <--- hello my old friend! it's been a while! :) 19:44:15 i used to see that all the time when i was first lisping as i'd leave the 'Q' or 'F' off of SET :) 19:46:19 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:50 ok why can't I call a function parameter `errno' in C? 19:49:01 it's a define? 19:49:07 ouch 19:49:59 shouldn't it be ex nihilo ? 19:50:17 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:50:18 Yes, no, maybe. It's a classic typo by GLS himself. 19:50:26 GJS 19:50:33 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-178-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:11 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/504819 19:51:15 tcr: and even if it wasn't define, it's a global 19:51:30 you may not do that? 19:51:43 simply, "errno" is taken ;-) 19:52:06 just took me days to figure it out 19:52:20 there's no problem with shadowing a global 19:52:22 p_l: You're allowed to shadow globals, though. 19:52:44 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@16.198.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:11 (iirc the reason errno is a define these days is to make it thread-local) 19:53:19 But, yeah, errno is typically a symbol-macro^W define in order to support having separate errno variables for each thread without breaking source code compatability. 19:53:57 yeah make sense, it's just the resulting error was "conflicting types" where the source types looked quite fine 19:54:16 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-178-2.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:28 I wonder if I'm going to be flamed to test suggesting on gcc-devel to warn about it :-) 19:54:35 s/test/death/ 19:55:23 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:37 I'm kind of tempted trying to hack that in myself :-) 19:55:51 I wonder why errno is defined through macro instead of using __thread extern int errno.... 19:56:06 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-69-171.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:18 LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:29 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 drewc pasted "basic argument-less message passing system" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96521 20:00:12 tritchey, we do, but in a very primitive way 20:00:32 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.84] has joined #lisp 20:00:34 drewc: why sort when you can merge? 20:00:58 do you use a library like CL-SOAP, or just do it by hand? 20:01:01 drewc: as I understand you subclass from message if you want to pass data in message? 20:01:05 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:01:31 just do it by hand, very basic soap 20:02:37 something like this http://dwim.hu/file/hu.dwim.util/source/soap.lisp plus some project specific stuff 20:02:40 p_l: Probably because it was done via a macro before there was __thread extern whatever. 20:04:15 levente_meszaros: cool. I was working myself toward a similar approach 20:04:23 drewc annotated #96521 "message passing example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96521#1 20:05:28 p_l: you could, sure... but you're not supposed to... you're not even supposed to use this, i'm making a point for some idiot on reddit that i'm arguing with 20:05:45 ah, now I noticed seeing your example :) 20:05:55 clhs merge 20:05:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge.htm 20:05:56 looks to me kinda like Smalltalk-style OOP 20:06:04 p_l: that is exactly what it is 20:06:23 heh :D 20:06:30 p_l: in a couple more pastes i will prove that MESSAGE is really just a function, and RESPONSE a method 20:06:45 so, therefore, generic functions _are_ message passing OO 20:07:20 Hey, why don't you prove that P=NP while you're at it? :-P 20:09:18 yeah, well ... i don't know why i'm bothering at all.. the same guy is trying to argue that S-&-S were actually studying Object Oriented programming, and not Hewitt's Actors, and that call/cc + CREATE!PROCESS et all is not concurrency... 20:09:44 or does not allow concurrency rather 20:10:07 ahh... arguing on the internet. 20:10:43 nyef: N=1 => P=NP. QED <-- quote from Concrete Mathematics :D 20:10:55 Heh. 20:10:57 really, i'm just making sure i have the concepts nailed down in my own head, and using this guy as an excuse to play around 20:11:46 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:14:18 ... I seem to have forgotten how to use DEFCLASS, if I ever knew. :-/ 20:14:52 dabr [~dabr@36-65.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:15:14 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:58 Oh, right, ' is terminating. So near, and yet so far. 20:18:12 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: .UPP.] 20:19:09 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:17 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:48 milanj [~milan@77.46.169.159] has joined #lisp 20:23:24 *nyef* -so- wants to define a print-object method for a translation that returns valid TeX and for it to be presented correctly in SLIME. 20:26:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29:14 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-87-211.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29:31 hum. SBCL hangs indefinitely compiling asdf's ensure-directory-pathname, when called from cl-launch 3.00!!! 20:29:49 drewc annotated #96521 "re-usable example message passing code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96521#2 20:31:02 So, I now have the crazy thought that I shouldn't (:use :cl), I should define subset packages that export -some- of CL and :use them instead. 20:32:54 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.84] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 20:32:57 Such as having a package that exports DEFCLASS, MAKE-INSTANCE, DEFMETHOD, WITH-SLOTS, etc. And another which exports *, +, and other basic math symbols. And a third for the basics of function definition, multiple-values, etc. 20:33:02 -!- dabr [~dabr@36-65.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:13 Or even have a separate one for multiple-values. 20:33:19 why? 20:33:53 Trading off more packages for fewer symbols accessible in each package. 20:33:55 nyef: i've been of the same mindset lately myself! 20:34:37 adeht: It's largely a matter of reducing conceptual scope when dealing with a single "chunk" of code. 20:34:44 only alexandria has been the target 20:35:07 nyef: i've settled for not :use'ing cl, but :import'ing from it 20:35:19 (s/cl/alexandria) 20:35:50 nyef: too abstract a goal for me to appreciate it :) 20:36:27 Mmm... I'd rather not :import particular symbols, as that gets long-winded quickly, but being able to say "I need math, multiple-values and expect to be doing some stuff with the object system". 20:36:46 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 20:37:01 adeht: One minor result is that tab-completion doesn't find so much junk. 20:38:49 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:39:39 fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:37 nyef: the */+/etc. symbols aren't used just for math btw 20:42:56 True. 20:43:27 It'd be harder to make that argument for FLOOR, though. 20:44:14 (Though the thought of a metaobject protocol that does something useful for FLOOR is amusing.) 20:44:33 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:54 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:10 -!- michalk [~michalk@chello089073134224.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:57 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:49:12 we need slime-import-symbol-at-point 20:51:21 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667826-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:52:13 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:52:18 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:18 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:45 Axius [~hi@109.97.44.16] has joined #lisp 20:53:51 JayK [~jakob@dslb-094-222-119-113.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:19 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667826-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 20:56:52 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:56:57 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:58:14 hi, how can I anticipate my application from hanging when I try to connect to a host via tcp? usocket on SBCL does not support timeouts for socket-connect and I didn't find a real solution on the net so far... is there a way? I don't think that everyone who uses lisp was always sure to reach the servers they wanted to connect to, that's why there must be a way...? it would be sufficient to automatically find out if socket-connect would su 20:58:50 JayK: You got cut off at "if socket-connect would su" 20:59:16 with-timeout 20:59:38 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.44.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:39 austinh: it would be sufficient to automatically find out if socket-connect would succeed or fail, but hanging is bad 20:59:52 adeht: I'm gonna try it, thx 21:00:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:01:18 -!- Algid [~coderaven@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:39 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:02:42 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:48 JayK: could also use iolib 21:02:52 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667826-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:07 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:03:16 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f665ea7-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 21:04:55 Heh. |$tHETA$|. 21:05:06 fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban2.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:09 Clearly, I need that read-macro. 21:05:17 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:10:18 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:12:14 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:43 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:15:46 Help! This lisp-TeX thing is getting out of hand. I'm now wanting a macro with-translation-values ((&rest translations) &body body) that takes translations such as $T$ or $T_1$, or multiple translations $T_1$ and $T_2$, etc. and binds $M_{xx}$ or $M_{xx_1}$, etc... 21:15:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:16:44 nyef: now try making it so that it translates symbols into array indices... :P 21:17:49 Hah! I'm not quite that far gone yet, though using $M_{xx}' = ...$, expanding to a let binding-spec with arbitrary math inside is tempting. 21:18:38 and then you'd use tex macros to transform the expression into sexps? 21:18:50 pkhuong: Oh, no. I'd use a reader-macro for that. 21:19:01 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:19:52 pkhuong: I'd have a preprocessor that converted things to more-valid TeX for an actual document, but stick with things that I can persuade the reader to deal with directly for the actual source side. 21:20:27 maden [~maden@dsl-157-249.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 21:21:37 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:23:44 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:23:55 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:21 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:28:29 Before I do anything with a read-macro, though, I think I need to figure out how to make the source buffers pretty. 21:29:23 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.97.189] has joined #lisp 21:31:08 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:36 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:32:13 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.97.189] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:49 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:53 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 21:33:57 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 21:34:20 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:36 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:36:45 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755964.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:33 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 21:37:52 nyef: mix in some preview-math or whatever it was called? 21:38:11 p_l: preview-latex? Yeah, exactly. 21:38:25 A little beyond my current elisp skills, though hopefully not by too much. 21:38:43 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-53-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:39:07 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:39:37 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:41:06 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:10 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:02 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:42:27 prxq [~mommer@f050206061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:48 hi 21:44:15 -!- JayK [~jakob@dslb-094-222-119-113.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:45:51 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:30 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:40 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-215-191.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:50:52 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51:01 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:15 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:51:43 So, would making http://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test-2.png "work" be a good thing to do? >:-) 21:51:45 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 21:53:11 I'm a little worried about the with-transformation-values macro, and might want to replace the m-v-c with a transformation-from-values or similar, but otherwise... 21:56:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:02 does cl provide some flavor of a stream flush or is that implementation dependent? 21:59:33 clhs finish-output 21:59:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 21:59:36 clhs force-output 21:59:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 21:59:41 bytecolor: Enjoy. 22:00:17 nyef: well alrighty, thanks 22:00:25 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.169.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:03:54 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:05 milanj [~milan@93.87.180.221] has joined #lisp 22:05:24 nyef: looks funny :-) 22:05:56 nyef: what is the context of that code? 22:06:05 prxq: CLIM transformations. 22:06:06 [if i may asl] 22:06:09 ah ok 22:07:42 Hrm... Implicit matrix math is fun, too. 22:08:02 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:08:08 Especially combined with destructuring. 22:08:14 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:08:16 does anyone here have any experiences regarding keeping BLOBs in databases, like photos etc? (with PostgreSQL 8.4 as intended RDBMS) 22:08:22 nyef: what do you mean? 22:08:39 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:39 nyef: how about using simple matrix algebra for these transforms? 22:09:00 I mean (let ([x-prime y-prime] = [x y 1] T) ...) for some transform T and coordinates x and y. 22:09:31 is that clojure? 22:09:52 No, that's an ascii representation of something vaguely like what the TeX would look like once rendered. 22:10:01 i'd be worried about the implicit [x y 1] T 22:10:12 implicit op i mean 22:10:19 ah... 22:10:32 It's actually a column when rendered. 22:10:41 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:10:54 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:59 do you find it to be helpful? 22:11:07 I... don't know yet. 22:11:22 Right now it doesn't even -work-. 22:11:28 :-) 22:11:58 I'd need to get the preview-latex thing going on my source buffers first, then worry about making the fancy stuff work. 22:12:18 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:12:27 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:41 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:13:09 at some point I used a few macros for doing matrices of operators. I found it helpful 22:13:29 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:13:53 but it never was as explicitly math-y as yours 22:14:42 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@78.13.218.209.transedge.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:49 prxq pasted "matrices of operators" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96529 22:17:11 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:16 I'm wondering how cpp macros are expanded; can an outer macro expand to something which contains local preprocessor directives again? 22:18:16 Mmm... That requires keeping more of the mapping in your head, though, doesn't it? 22:18:28 tcr: I -wish-. :-( 22:18:55 so... no? 22:19:17 (And if they can, please let me know, having that belief invalidated would be extremely convenient at times.) 22:19:18 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:20:25 nyef: they corresponded to similarly named ops on paper, where there was some prose on them. 22:20:35 Mmm. 22:20:37 each of them was heavy. 22:20:42 maden_ [~maden@dsl-157-249.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 22:20:54 i mean, lots of data going in and out 22:21:06 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-157-249.aei.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:21:06 not a few numbers 22:21:16 Ah, okay. 22:21:31 okflo [~user@91-115-81-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:21:50 Might be amusing to write an FFT or some HMM tools in this style, see how it really shakes out. 22:22:47 i have an unfinished blog post on something called libflame where they went that route to recreate lapack functionality 22:23:00 Oh? 22:23:12 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:24:29 they have releases. I've never tried it though. 22:24:47 good night 22:24:51 Sleep well. 22:24:52 -!- prxq [~mommer@f050206061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:31 So, the TeX is a presentation format, in a way, that I can compile to, allowing me to use an arbitrary canonical format... 22:25:43 Or, rather, arbitrary input format. 22:26:06 Also means I can use lisp instead of preview-latex to do the rendering. 22:26:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:00 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:19 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:45 -!- okflo [~user@91-115-81-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:39 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:37 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: ten years of linux and still buggy as hell] 22:35:06 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:36:36 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.131] has joined #lisp 22:39:29 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:41:17 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.163.160.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:42:58 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:44:06 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:45:21 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:21 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 22:45:22 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:25 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7677.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:24 -!- LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:30 random poll: who would be interested in participating in the upcoming 2010 Lisp Games Design Challenge? 22:50:36 or LGDC10? 22:50:45 you don't have to create a game to participate 22:50:52 how's that? 22:51:07 you can help test and or critique the entries. 22:51:24 last year we had 2 entries :) but it was fun. maybe we can get 4 or 5? 22:51:52 in fact, i would like it to be open to, and known about, other people who may not even know much about lisp 22:53:07 jao [~jao@83.50.65.114] has joined #lisp 22:53:08 I would like :D 22:54:09 I mean.. I'm just beginning with lisp (half a year of reading stuff and playing around in Slime), but before that I used to do some gamedev in C++, so it sounds good for me ;) 22:57:45 definitely! 22:58:03 TeMPOraL: we have a channel #lispgames on here already. feel free :) 22:58:14 (dto): wow :) thanks 23:04:58 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:16 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 23:05:57 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:29 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.175] has joined #lisp 23:09:35 -!- fisxoj_ [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban2.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:11:53 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:00 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-kgtgqzuayadxtcuv] has joined #lisp 23:13:04 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 23:13:17 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:16:11 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.6] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 23:21:04 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 23:22:26 -!- entropond [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:53 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:45 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.171.206.127] has joined #lisp 23:27:00 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:29:31 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-215-191.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:30:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:32:55 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:31 (&optional temp 1) not work in sbcl ? 23:41:42 *with sbcl 23:41:55 Stattrav: Why would it? Trying to bind an integer as a variable isn't exactly allowed under the spec. 23:42:08 (Did you mean (&optional (temp 1)) ?) 23:42:15 :( sad yeah 23:42:30 thanks. /me has just started with it. 23:42:40 No problem. Good luck. 23:43:15 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:44:08 well that dint work either 23:44:33 Required argument is not a symbol: 23:44:59 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:47:36 http://dto.github.com/notebook/lgdc.html 23:48:39 nyef: well this is the case, http://paste.ha.ckers.in/123001 this compiles in clisp and doesnt in sbcl 23:48:50 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:07 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:49:10 I blame clisp. 23:49:32 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.171.206.127] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci_] 23:49:33 nyef: what do you recommend ? sbcl vs clisp ? 23:49:49 (defun tail (n &optional (intermediate 1)) ...) 23:50:02 k 23:50:57 Required argument is not a symbol: (&OPTIONAL (INTERMEDIATE 1)) 23:50:58 [Condition of type SB-INT:COMPILED-PROGRAM-ERROR] 23:51:34 Ohk i need to read up the manuals i think :( 23:52:14 The problem is that you've somehow put the &optional in the list with the optional argument instead of before it. 23:52:46 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:29 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp