00:00:20 _3b: I guess I'll have to do that 00:00:25 *mathrick* feels dirty 00:00:27 <_3b> mathrick: probably the difference would just be (let ((form-to-handle-type (if (consp type-name) (foo type-name) (bar type-name))) ... `(expansion ...))) 00:00:29 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-43-245.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:01:08 _3b: lemme try that 00:01:14 and thanks for the input 00:01:15 <_3b> then just use ,form-to-handle-type in the expansion instead of trying to conditionalize on type inside the ` 00:01:30 yeah, that makes sense I guess 00:02:27 luis: I blame you 00:02:40 though that's only because I don't know anyone else working on CFFI :) 00:03:50 _3b annotated #96442 "like that" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96442#2 00:03:56 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:04:13 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:04:25 <_3b> does that help any? 00:04:33 mathrick: it seems to me that you didn't get it to successfully expand (or you'll have noticed some other strangeness, e.g. having the TYPE-NAME symbol in the expansion).. you should rewrite it, step by step, and at every step making sure the expansion gets closer to what you want 00:05:29 X-02 [~schopenha@91.106.180.47] has joined #lisp 00:05:40 <_3b> no need for the macrolet stuff, since you are just doing normal list/symbol manipulation 00:05:51 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:57 hrmpf 00:06:07 I need to unwrap my mind first 00:06:12 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-jdxldretzulhporw] has left #lisp 00:06:54 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.210.28] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:07:05 _3b: but wouldn't I need to do that for every form I have inside the LET* in there? 00:07:30 that's why I introduced SLET*, because I need to make a check for whether it's a sexp or actual value for each binding I want to make 00:08:34 you should remove slet* altogether to better see your confusion 00:08:58 <_3b> is the form (vtable-description-cstruct-name (% vtable-desc)) a string or symbol sometimes? looks like a cons to me 00:09:09 but then I'll have to wrap each binding in a conditional by hand :( 00:09:29 <_3b> or do you mean that behaves differently depening on type-name? 00:09:31 _3b: it's either a struct, or a sexp evaluating to a struct 00:09:49 err 00:09:55 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:01 it's string or a sexp evaluating to a string 00:10:07 -!- X-02 [~schopenha@91.106.180.47] has left #lisp 00:10:24 because earlier when I make VTABLE-DESC, the type name is either a string/symbol, or a sexp describing how to get to it 00:10:33 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:38 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-146-212-203.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 00:10:39 so it cascades through all the bindings 00:11:42 <_3b> ok, what args does vtable-description-cstruct-name take? 00:13:29 a struct 00:13:45 there's a (defstruct vtable-description ...) earlier 00:14:01 <_3b> ah, ok 00:14:41 the whole trickyness comes from the fact I need to splice the sexp/values in the middle of further expressions 00:14:45 *trickiness 00:14:48 *_3b* is starting to see what you are doing 00:14:59 ah, good, at least one person :) 00:15:01 <_3b> maybe you will have 2 functions without much in common :p 00:15:10 yeah, that's my fear 00:15:23 they will be almost identical, except not 00:15:28 that's horrible for maintenance 00:15:59 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:12 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 00:17:06 <_3b> do you care if you do the (gethash type-name *vtables) at runtime? 00:17:46 <_3b> (parent ...) returns a vtable-description, right? 00:18:24 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.113.17.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:34 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-44-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:18:50 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:19:11 _3b: nope, it returns an actual type, and only that's used to lookup the proper vtable in *vtables* (a hash) 00:19:47 <_3b> at runtime though, right? 00:20:01 it might be, yes 00:20:19 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-57-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:20:20 though the contents are filled and available at compile time 00:20:43 actually, good question, I don't know if it has any value at runtime 00:21:05 but I think dmitryk did something with load-values to make it have a value 00:21:40 <_3b> is the argument to parent something that would be a valid arg to type-name otherwise? 00:21:55 yes 00:22:17 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:22 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:22:30 (except it's actually a sexp, of course) 00:22:53 <_3b> i mean the foo part in (parent foo) would be OK to pass there 00:23:08 yup 00:23:34 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:23:39 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:51 dfox [~dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 00:24:09 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-141-62.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:25:16 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:25:37 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:08 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:51 _3b annotated #96442 "closer?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96442#3 00:26:55 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-146-212-203.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:35 _3b: sec 00:29:30 <_3b> hmm, unless parent is a macro i guess 00:29:46 it's a function 00:30:12 <_3b> so did you mean (parent 'foo) earlier? 00:30:32 <_3b> or is foo a variable and not a symbol 00:30:36 -!- locci [~nes@93.37.208.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:30:47 variable 00:31:15 <_3b> ah, then the whole thing can't work anyway, since you can't resolve the stuff at compile time to build the cffi macros, which was what started the whole thing :p 00:31:26 _3b: okay, so this is kinda horrible in its own way, since it pretty much locks it into (paren ...) and no other form 00:31:33 _3b: yeah 00:31:47 I think I'll resign myself to my fate and just get something working 00:32:26 <_3b> well, if it wasn't a variable, you could funcall the car instead or something 00:32:34 <_3b> but the variable thing is a problem 00:33:40 -!- fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:43 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:01 fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:42 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:35:46 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:36:12 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:36:42 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:01 <_3b> i suppose if you have a limited number of possible return types, you could just expand to a typecase for the case where you need runtime dispatch :p 00:38:25 <_3b> or normal case/cond i guess, since you will have the name of the type, not an object 00:38:53 meanerelk [~ekemal@erie.bmi.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 00:39:07 mathrick: what're you writing? 00:39:07 perhaps it'll be easier to just duplicate the macro text where I need to refer to the parent 00:39:25 Ralith: working on CL-GTK2 00:39:25 _JFT_ [~JFT@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:39:29 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:39:43 this part is needed to allow seamless intergration and inheriting from C classes 00:39:46 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:39:50 *_3b* doesn't see how duplicating helps 00:40:05 mathrick: ooh, neat. 00:40:10 good luck! 00:40:12 <_3b> oh, do you have lisp classes involved here? 00:40:28 yes, and C classes too 00:40:33 it's fun 00:41:15 _3b: duplicate as in have CALL-GMETHOD and CALL-NEXT-GMETHOD (which is where I need the (parent ...)) just have the same text with minute changes 00:41:24 <_3b> so this is inside a method specialized on a lisp class, where parent is possibly a c class? 00:41:56 _3b: yes, but it's more indirect than that :) 00:42:29 it looks up the C class structure corresponding to the object's Lisp class, and invokes the vtable slot on it 00:42:33 Krystof: herep 00:42:53 if the class was defined in Lisp, it'll jump right back to the list stub calling a Lisp method 00:43:05 if not, it'll call whatever C code was defined there 00:43:13 *Lisp stub 00:45:10 <_3b> does PARENT mean super class, or container object? 00:45:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:47:42 rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:17 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:33 _3b: parent takes a C class and returns its parent, which is also a C class 00:48:41 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 00:49:12 C represent types as either strings (names) or ints (volatile type ids only valid in the current runtime) 00:49:46 Lisp used to do the same, but it was refactored to use structs which represent the same info 00:50:04 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:39 so now parent takes a struct, string or int 00:51:01 ...I guess that was more confusing than helpful 00:51:18 <_3b> not so much confusing, as just no what i asked :p 00:51:31 -!- rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:51:46 _3b: okay then, it's superclass 00:52:05 and I guess I meant (g-type-parent ...) there 00:52:15 -!- _JFT_ [~JFT@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: _JFT_] 00:52:23 yeah 00:52:35 substitute G-TYPE-PARENT everywhere I said PARENT 00:53:49 -!- moshisushi [~henry@h-121-175.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:53:50 *_3b* suspects some moppy stuff could help 00:54:21 it's already moppy to hell and back 00:54:27 <_3b> though variable arg count is still a problem 00:55:01 moshisushi [~henry@h-121-175.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 00:55:14 _3b: the problem is not calculating GTK2 stuff. The problem is I can't substitute that in CFFI calls 00:55:14 nicdev [~nicdev@st401-108.subnet-249.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 00:55:34 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:41 I think the ultimate way forward is to submit a nice patch to the CFFI list 00:57:22 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:00:35 also, I think I could factor out the common parts with a macro-generating macro and fun double backquotes 01:00:49 it's literally just a single form that's different 01:04:34 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:05:28 -!- rodt1 is now known as rodt 01:09:37 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.97.189] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci_] 01:09:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.184] has joined #lisp 01:09:47 kevin01123 [~user@2002:4751:4123:1234:221:6bff:fe01:8106] has joined #lisp 01:10:37 Where do I install cl-ppcre? I'm not seeing anything about the install path on their site, and I was hoping to get advice from someone whose done it. 01:11:07 minion: tell kevin01123 about clbuild 01:11:08 kevin01123: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 01:12:27 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.10] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:12:45 stassats`: Oh wow, that's awesome. Thank you! 01:13:52 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:14:31 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:24 you know, i just came to the realisation that slots should have an :initializer initarg that is a function which is called with the object being initialized, and the slot is set to the return value. 01:16:04 i _really_ don't want shared-initialize ... that's a big hammer to be using on a thumbtack. 01:16:53 Sounds sweet and simple. 01:17:01 Your idea, that is. 01:17:49 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:20:06 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:21:40 or, alternately, standard-slots already have an :initfunction. let it take an optional argument and let us specifify _that_ in a defclass as well. 01:25:39 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:26 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:26:31 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 01:26:38 -!- tom1 [~pierre@212.99.78.123] has left #lisp 01:26:47 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:50 drewc, care to spin this idea to Pascal? 01:27:08 He might well appreciate it and make it into a CDR or something. 01:27:08 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:27:25 Ok, gotta sleep. 01:30:42 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:32:18 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 01:33:17 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-172-115.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:35:39 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-210-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:45 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:41:12 drewc: :default-initargs seems to provide something very much like this 01:41:50 Any SBCL string hackers around? 01:42:10 Ralith: it does? 01:42:22 drewc annotated #96381 "the next logical step is to implement the mop version. using a composable metaclass" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96381#4 01:42:33 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 01:43:10 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.37] has joined #lisp 01:43:41 Ralith: no, it most certainly does not... unless i've been missing something? 01:43:47 if not, I'm misusing it in a miraculously functional way. 01:43:50 -!- PurplePanda [~pyro@CPE-124-190-112-220.nxwn1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 01:43:51 clhs defclass 01:43:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 01:44:32 or, hm, my codepath narrowly *avoids* that bug. 01:44:34 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:44:35 okay, nevermind. 01:44:49 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:21 _3b: the mop version of my binary class thingie ^ 01:45:30 Is SBCL the most popular lisp implementation? 01:45:42 kevin01123: around these parts, probably. 01:47:46 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:19 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:51:50 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:53:17 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:53:43 oh actually 01:53:51 "The default initial value form is evaluated each time it is used" 01:54:11 Ralith: that still does not get me access to the object being initialized 01:54:15 ah, yes. 01:54:35 i mean, even a dynamic binding would be enough 01:54:59 :initform (if (foo -object-) 1 2) 01:55:55 if attilla were here, i know he'd say something like "CL-DEF has that" 01:56:08 or levente :) 01:56:49 but i prefer :initfunction (lambda (object) (if (foo object) 1 2)) 01:57:49 ok, i've long since written my shared-initialize method, and also realized i didn't actually need it an deleted it. 01:57:57 *drewc* gets back to work 02:01:19 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:01:43 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:01:55 drewc, such is the way of many extensions I come up with.. 02:03:33 Step 1: develop a need; Step 2: develop a generic solution; Step 3: discover that you don't have a problem in the first place; Step 4: doubt that the solution is actually generally useful at all. 02:04:19 Ok, sleep, now. 02:04:32 <_rata_> "Heap exhausted during garbage collection" <- does it means that I have no memory left? 02:04:37 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:04:53 _rata_: sounds like it 02:04:59 no heap left anyway 02:05:18 <_rata_> buuu :( 02:05:23 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:56 <_rata_> the heap is all the memory but the stack? (newbie question) 02:06:44 yes. unless you want to count the registers. 02:07:05 "The heap" is a loose term referring to storage of indefinite extent. 02:07:22 Technically CL doesn't have a heap or stack. 02:07:30 -!- postamar [~postamar@206-248-165-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 02:07:35 But implementations do. 02:10:04 -!- fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:11:13 Is there a nice tool someone could recommend for generating an html reference from a .lisp file? (something similar to javadoc where it would just let you glance over the functions even if they were not documented) 02:11:52 <_rata_> and when sbcl enters the low-level debugger, is there a way to exit it and continue where the program was? (supposing I have freed some memory) 02:12:03 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 02:12:37 minion: tell derrida about qbook 02:12:38 derrida: please see qbook: qbook generates HTML (or LaTeX) formatted code listings of Common Lisp source files. http://www.cliki.net/qbook 02:12:53 drewc: thank you 02:12:55 that's not exactly javadoc-style though 02:13:18 that's ok :) happy to see something new 02:13:21 that literally formats a .lisp file as a .html file with some magic for folding definition bodies 02:13:45 so you see (defun foo (bar) "docstring" ...) 02:13:59 i mostly want it for undocumented code so i think that might be perfect 02:14:24 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:14:45 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 02:15:01 well, emacs is for undocumented code. M-. + the M-x slime-who-uses is better than any html listing is going to be 02:15:51 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:57 drewc: what would you use if you had a file with a bunch of definitions you are unfamiliar with and you wanted to just peruse what was there without necessarily knowing what you were looking for 02:17:11 :) 02:17:23 troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:52 <_rata_> when sbcl enters into the low-level debugger, is there a way to exit and continue from where the program was? (assuming I made more memory available) 02:21:25 -!- troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:03 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:58 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:25:09 dnolen_ [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:16 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:16 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:25:16 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 02:25:20 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:25:33 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:26 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 02:29:13 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:29:14 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 02:30:37 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:31:23 drewc: clod works really well (it seems) 02:31:49 see this? http://code.google.com/p/cl-soap-uuh/wiki/README 02:33:32 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:41 fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:13 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:35:56 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 02:38:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:25 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:35 ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:43 ... that "uuh" sounds like a grunt of sad, sad developer 02:40:59 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:43:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:44:20 -!- fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:46:05 entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:00 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:01 p_l: this sad developer has to perl -de 0 and use Soap::Lite to temporarily make ends meet :-/ 02:57:27 i really need a crutch language 02:59:18 echo "1) learn xml. 2) DIY. 3) stfu" >> ~/todo.txt 03:02:20 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-242-77.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:06:16 fusss: if you're really using soap, my sympathies go out to you. 03:09:00 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:11:16 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:12:37 fusss: you mad? 03:12:58 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:16:11 -!- kevin01123 [~user@2002:4751:4123:1234:221:6bff:fe01:8106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:26 we have been through this before 03:22:47 Fade: it's the closest thing to a portable, distributed FFI out there 03:23:27 at least i can hack in Lisp (theoretically) to contribute to our internal system written in java and php 03:25:19 it's super powerful; the wsdl file (descriptive xml) is consumed by our tools to generate stub code, unit tests, and documentation 03:25:50 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:03 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:26 *fusss* notices perl programmers have gone too far with cpan. it's practically a joke now. 03:26:49 overlibrarization 03:29:40 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:31:42 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:32:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:33:03 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:34:05 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:35:29 fusss: oh, it's all singing all dancing, and all the docs are pathological liars. 03:35:35 interrop is actually a nightmare. :) 03:36:55 not here, i orchestrate salesforce, zuora, drupal, our internal platform and my project all over soap 03:37:25 Mmm... My SOAP experience, once I found the SOAPAction header, has been not entirely unpleasant. 03:37:35 we're putting in server-push stuff now, so far it's been cron-based polling 03:38:15 nyef: soapUI + microsoft's xmlnotepad and a few other tools like wsdl2(php|java) and you're good to go 03:38:22 at least IME 03:38:49 Mmm... Actually, I ran into something that I'd have liked to do in soapUI, but couldn't figure out how to make it happen. 03:38:56 what are you using on the lisp side? 03:39:06 It wasn't SOAP, but I had an XSD, and needed to generate corresponding XML. 03:39:19 with push it's xmpp for us, which i am investigating; and message queue (prolly amqp or zero, since those too have cl libs) 03:39:38 *nod* 03:39:55 Fade: formatting stuff in cxml and passing them to a soap-lite script in perl, because cl-soap is broken 03:40:11 i should be able to get something better hacked up once i go through the spec 03:40:14 RSN 03:41:04 Honestly! SOAP is an HTTP request with a funny header. That's it. 03:41:15 You should be able to do it with trivial-http if you wanted. 03:41:15 cxml is a pretty tight little system. 03:41:49 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:41:49 nyef: it's not just marshalling that i want, but a full blown wsdl2lisp 03:42:26 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:42:44 Why am I reminded of the hack I did a while ago for GUIDs in SB-ALIEN? 03:42:44 in java and php you work with objects, set attributes/fields/slots and pass them to methods. no visible hint of rpc or socket interface. 03:43:00 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:27 fusss: this is listed in "fallacies of distributed computing" 03:46:28 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:30 Transparent distribution is a dangerous thing :) 03:49:11 i said this before: "The first step of failure is asking for 'community' input" 03:49:15 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:49:53 So, I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do with my little lisp-and-TeX experiment is to add a $-reader to lisp so I don't have to have all these |s around. 03:49:55 heh 03:49:56 fusss: No, that's just doing your homework. 03:50:03 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:03 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@st401-108.subnet-249.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 03:50:21 fusss: The 'failure' comes from being stupid enough to put them in control. 03:50:49 nyef: well, all those pipe delimited symbols were a serious bear to parse in my head. 03:51:09 Yeah, and the pipes are still ugly in my source. 03:52:35 Zhivago: cheers! 03:52:55 <_rata_> is it possible to continue running a lisp function from where it was once sbcl has entered ldb? 03:52:57 sledge__ [~sledge@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 03:53:12 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53:18 That said, I'd still like to be able to (let (($M_{xx}'$ $M_{xx_2}M_{xx_1}+M_{xy_2}M_{yx_1}$)) ...) and have it Come Out Right. 03:53:33 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:53:42 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:53:46 Ahoy mateys. Anyone here familiar with Hunchentoot's file upload process? 03:53:49 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:21 nyef: dunno man... that looks dangerously like perl. :) 03:54:35 shaftoe: A fairly straight-forward multipart form issue, iirc. 03:54:41 Fade: Not if you look at it as TeX. 03:54:51 yeah, well. 03:55:01 Zhivago: documentation says you get a list from (hunchentoot:post-parameter) 03:55:05 Shaftoe: me me 03:55:17 however, a) you need a variable name, and b) I get no list. 03:55:20 tell me, fuss 03:55:22 fusss 03:55:30 Shaftoe: look in the examples :-) but hold on 03:55:33 And half the point is the use of a mode similar to preview-latex in emacs to make the TeX look pretty when it's not being edited. 03:56:27 -!- sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:37 Shaftoe: For one thing, you are mixing up post-parameter and post-parameters* 03:56:39 fusss: where are the samples? 03:57:20 doc says right there: "Returns the value of the POST parameter (as provided in the request's body) named by the string name. Note that only the first value will be returned if the client provided more than one POST parameter with the name name. This value will usually be a string (or NIL if there ain't no POST parameter with this name). If, however, the browser sent a file through a http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2388.htmlform, the value 03:57:22 hunchentoot/test/test-handlers.lisp 03:57:53 in its simplest form, you have a handler that the user can access via a URL 03:58:20 the handler can print a form, which has a file input element 03:58:43 you submit this to the handler via POST, setting appropriate encoding type 03:58:47 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:58:59 on the server side, you test for the presence of the post parameter 03:58:59 so far so good 03:59:11 which one, exactly? 03:59:22 when you say "the" post parameter 03:59:22 then call (handle-file (post-parameter "file")) 03:59:41 handle-file is an internal function of hunchentoot, IIRC 03:59:58 and you need to use a full package prefix (tbnl::handle-file ..) 04:00:22 Shaftoe: hold on, I will paste some'n 04:00:55 thanks. I am going through the test-handlers.lisp page too 04:01:18 are you using cl-who or something else? 04:01:33 the frontend is integrating from ckfinder 04:01:36 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-172-115.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:01:47 let's say for now that I'm using a static html page. 04:01:58 and I have full control over the entire universe =) 04:02:18 ok, you will need the static page which displays the form, but you need to send the form handler to the hunchentoot path: 04:04:32
04:04:44 aright. 04:04:46 that's your minimal html file. on the lisp side: 04:06:03 fyi, on the list side, I I have: (destructuring-bind (p f c) (post-parameter "myfile") => rror while parsing arguments to DESTRUCTURING-BIND: 04:06:03 ... exactly 3 expected, but 0 found 04:06:16 s/list/lisp/ 04:06:30 (define-easy-handler (my-uploader :uri "/my-fun) () (let ((file (post-parameter "myfile"))) (when file (let ((path (handle-file file))) (copy-file path ..)] 04:06:46 alright. 04:06:56 so that means something is breaking before this stage. 04:07:12 thanks, fusss, I will troubleshoot and see why it never arrives on this end of things. 04:07:23 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 04:07:24 why are you destructuring? post-parameter will return the parameter or nil, just test for non-nil and go 04:07:38 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-44-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:07:46 Shaftoe: you will need to check your hunchentoot temporary directory 04:07:59 (I've set the temp dir) 04:08:07 that's where files get uploaded first. you will need to copy them from there, whence the copy-file 04:08:33 I'm destructuring because that's what the documentation says: post-paramter returns a list if it's a file upload 04:08:50 (log-message :info "Copying file ~a to ~a" file new-path) 04:09:21 Shaftoe: indeed, you're right. the car the is the filename, then size, then type, IIRC 04:10:05 in any case, it's moot for now as it's always returning nil. Something must be up before I even get to the handler 04:10:14 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:10:15 if you use handle-file, you wont need to do any destructuring though 04:10:49 Sorry, Shaftoe, your earlier paste of the documentation was cutoff. I didn't realize that it returned a list in that case, either. 04:11:14 austinh: no problem 04:11:23 Shaftoe: http://paste.lisp.org/+22F0 04:11:31 fusss: thnx 04:12:22 don't forget to set *tmp-test-directory* or make-pathname will be broken 04:13:11 good idea. trying. 04:13:11 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:19 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-44-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:14:27 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 04:15:54 that's odd. it's saying the symbol is not found. 04:16:00 I'll define it, but that seems suspect. 04:16:47 hmm. I see. I think that variable is part of hte test suite. 04:16:52 (perhaps?) 04:17:48 no dice. Alright, I'm gonna go bang my head on this some. 04:17:54 I'll report back when it's purple =) 04:19:07 maden_ [~maden@dsl-153-44.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 04:20:32 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-222-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:44 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-153-44.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:22:27 this is all doubly odd, because the raw-post-data function gives the proper information. 04:22:30 scratching head. 04:23:33 Are you sure that your multipart form is correctly set up? 04:24:33 Shaftoe: maybe you need to explicitly set enctype="multipart/form-data" 04:24:54 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-241-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:24:54 ddddan [~user@cpe-74-76-44-65.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:57 method="post" accept-charset="utf-8" name="myfile" enctype="multipart/form-data"> 04:25:24 hold on. I'm gonna check what the raw data is returning 04:25:42 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:27:20 very odd. 04:27:20 -----------------------------131839631455057965285176241 04:27:21 Content-Disposition: form-data; name="myfile"; filename="changeintoatruck.jpg" 04:27:21 Content-Type: image/jpeg 04:27:37 and the data is correct. 04:27:42 so the file is arriving to the server. 04:27:47 I get all of the data. 04:27:52 but then it just vanishes. 04:28:22 Shaftoe: it's in a temp file somewhere :-) 04:28:24 Into a temporary file? 04:28:53 Shaftoe: when the file arrives on the server, it's just given a random name and no extension 04:29:04 you need to rename it as per snippet 04:29:49 Alright. like I said, I'm gonna poke at this some more. there's obviously a little thing I'm missing somewhere. 04:31:11 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:39 Shaftoe: (setf *file-upload-hook* (lambda (file) (log-message :info "I got a file named ~a" file)) 04:32:04 or maybe (format t "I got the file ~a" file) 04:32:37 Aaaggghhhh! My eyes. 04:32:41 *gigamonkey* just looked at www.lisp.org 04:32:44 what is the value of *tmp-directory*? 04:33:02 interesting. 04:33:22 gigamonkey: just yellow of khaki. what else? 04:33:28 it goes to the proper directory (*tmp-directory* is properly set) 04:33:36 (has 777 permissions, btw) 04:34:16 what OS and Lisp? 04:34:42 KCL on Android? 04:35:30 debian, sbcl 1.0.35 04:36:08 grrr 04:37:12 thing is. it's behaving "properly" for the most part: documentation says that if I don't copy that file, it's deleted. 04:37:23 so it's most likely being created, and deleted before I can do anything with it. 04:37:41 for some readson that post-parameter is still returning nil though 04:38:01 Good morning! 04:39:16 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:32 <_rata_> good morning beach 04:39:55 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 04:41:18 Shaftoe: let me know how it goes. for now just turn on logging to the max and use LOG-MESSAGE liberally 04:41:26 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:41:27 tail -f is your friend 04:42:06 yup. I have a growing suspicion it's something nasty. But I will refrain from any speculation till I get it =) 04:43:11 ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-8-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:40 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:05 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-8-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:46:25 yeah, it's getting there, but it's got this weird stuff going on. I will lisp paste it 04:47:58 fusss: nah, just the yellow. And I suppose the fact that it basically hasn't changed in several years. 04:49:25 christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:44 Shaftoe pasted "Hunchentoot upload" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96445 04:49:58 as a result, I can't "access" the parameter. 04:50:19 calling (hunchentoot:post-parameter) with no name results in an error 04:50:31 any other name (including nil or "") results in nil return. 04:50:34 I am baffled. 04:50:58 hmpf. I should really have inspected the source code WAY earlier. 04:51:36 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:04 -!- ddddan [~user@cpe-74-76-44-65.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:21 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:54:25 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:02 Shaftoe annotated #96445 "hunchentoot src" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96445#1 04:55:51 that kind of settles the matter no? =) 04:56:24 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:56:55 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-172-115.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:57:04 yeah, it does. the documentation is out of sync with the code. 04:57:13 bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:09 yup. 04:58:35 fusss: answer is: it's broken, but it works if I use (car (post-parameters)) instead of (post-parameter) 04:58:50 unless I'm really moronic about something obvious. 04:59:01 You were told that you were confusing post-paramters with post-parameter earlier :p 04:59:41 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:00:10 Zhivago: yeah, I responded to them, but my quote was cut off. 05:00:19 they responded back to me saying I was correct. 05:00:23 the documentation is out of sync 05:00:23 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:56 post-parameter name &optional request => string 05:00:56 Returns the value of the POST parameter [...] 05:00:56 If, however, the browser sent a file through a http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2388.htmlform, the value of this function is a three-element list 05:01:20 -!- bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:38 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-177.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:02:09 Shaftoe: try (handle-file (post-parameter "myfile")) 05:02:29 handle-file already does the destucturing and copying for you 05:03:26 fusss: no dice. it's not working. it's before it comes to the destructuring bind. the post-parameter function is unable to cope with the data it has *internally*. It expects a a-list, but when there's a file upload, the internal data is a 3 element list as mentionned in the doc. 05:03:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/96445#1 05:03:49 that's the code. 05:03:55 (in hunchentoot) 05:06:56 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:36 thanks though, fusss, for sitcking through it. now that I have the fix, I will use the handle-file code. 05:10:03 (the fix, btw, is (car (post-parameters)) instead of post-parameter 05:10:04 ) 05:10:09 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13:29 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 05:14:11 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:14:24 Shaftoe: i am cleaning up a script for you, wait 05:18:39 -!- xan-afk [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:49 Shaftoe: i am getting nil here too 05:20:53 on it 05:21:10 yup. it's cause the internal paramters value ought to be an alist 05:21:19 instead it's a list (no pun intended) 05:21:53 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:21:57 it expects: ( varname . ( file file-name type) ), instead it has (varname file file-name type ) 05:22:15 -!- maden_ [~maden@dsl-153-44.aei.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:49 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:26:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 05:26:54 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:22 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:28:49 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:29:54 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:31:25 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 05:32:34 haha 05:32:46 Shaftoe: what is your enctype set to? 05:32:47 :-) 05:33:09 enctype="multipart/form-data" 05:33:54 what's yours set to? =) 05:34:19 it was www/form-data 05:34:22 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 05:34:30 i h a v e i t working own 05:34:32 now 05:34:43 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:35:08 fusss pasted "hunchentoot uploader" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96449 05:35:24 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.56.149.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:44 brb 05:35:58 -!- Alaa_ [~chatzilla@dxb-as44151.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 05:39:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:41:17 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661c07-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 05:43:22 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:43:36 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:12 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #lisp 05:48:26 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 05:49:26 Phoodus [foo@174-17-242-158.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:30 fusss: I need to hit the sack. it's 2am. thanks for helping out though. As a reward, this was my test file: http://dorkdungeon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/change-into-a-truck.jpg 05:49:49 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 05:54:05 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-172-115.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:01:17 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-201-44.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 06:02:56 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:31 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:08:35 grrrrrrrrrrrrrr 06:08:46 epiphany atlast, at 5:08PM 06:09:22 nyef: a real engineer you are (Re: soap is just http, you can do whatever you want with trivial-http) 06:09:53 well, the common form of SOAP... 06:10:05 *p_l* once studied a whole book on SOAP 06:10:11 arbscht_ [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:10:17 all my orchestration-fu goes into four macros: with-sales-force, with-zuora, with-drupal, etc. no need for full-blown soap-stack or wsdl capability. fake it til you make it. 06:10:27 it can be even nice, assuming you use message model, not RPC model. 06:10:28 oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.182.116] has joined #lisp 06:11:16 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:11:19 p_l: 100% message model. i am supposed to implement a message queue today and have been playing an idle architect all day, with rabbit, redis, zero, bdb, mysql, etc. 06:11:24 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-137-177.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 06:11:24 of course, message models kicks out Java's favourites :P 06:12:54 we're phasing out the java stack the previous devs used. my job is to smooth things and make them dynamic, for the front end guys who wants responsive "push" servers that they can sodomize with jquery calls 06:14:34 vng [~user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 06:15:06 Good afternoon! 06:16:11 vng: heya 06:16:29 hello fusss 06:17:54 jquery... yummy 06:18:06 lynx` [lynx@freeshell.org] has joined #lisp 06:18:44 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:19:56 p_l: :-) really good stuff 06:20:15 it sorts of needs a best-practices document for large projects though 06:20:42 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:20:50 jquery + firebug repl = acceptable lisp 06:21:04 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:21:18 Pretty much. 06:21:52 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:03 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 06:22:13 I'll have to admit though that I was impressed by WebKit tools. 06:23:06 -!- lynx` [lynx@freeshell.org] has quit [Quit: ...] 06:27:59 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:49 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:28:55 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:34:17 -!- vng [~user@113.161.70.106] has left #lisp 06:34:39 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:34:53 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:35:25 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 06:35:43 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:35:57 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:36:51 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:38:09 vng [~user@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 06:38:26 rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:39:38 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:43:12 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:10 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:38 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:01 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:46:47 -!- prip [~foo@host203-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:46:54 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 06:47:25 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:50:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 06:56:32 Beaver [~guest@bzq-109-65-22-248.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:29 Harag pasted "validate-superclass issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96450 06:57:44 morning 06:57:45 -!- Beaver [~guest@bzq-109-65-22-248.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 06:59:15 prip [~foo@host194-125-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 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[~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:22 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:24:27 -!- arbscht_ [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:26:23 Harag, try the vs specialized on the reverse order 07:26:55 thanx will do 07:28:31 jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 07:30:32 -!- codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:31:24 codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:18 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:32:49 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:33:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:34:30 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 07:35:44 xan-afk [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:36:06 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:36:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:54 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:42:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:43:19 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 07:47:35 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:55:23 -!- sledge__ [~sledge@24.235.36.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:56:47 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:48 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-242-158.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:57:57 mega1 [~quassel@pool-03167.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:59:00 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:11 good morning 08:00:08 what in the wide wide world of sports does this error mean: The value NIL is not of type (MOD 536870909). 08:02:28 the type (mod x) means all non-negative integers less than x 08:02:29 bytecolor: (MOD n) is a type specifier corresponding to the set of integers between 0 and n-1 08:02:31 Hmm, just stumbled across another annoying problem in CL. 08:02:39 NIL is the null list, and is definitely not a number 08:02:51 The inability to make an expression that passes though the implicit return value. 08:03:18 at a guess, you are trying to address an array with the return value of POSITION, or something 08:03:39 hrm, there is an array in the func 08:03:44 e.g. (progn 4 x) where x is something that yields 4 because it was before it. 08:05:28 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:02 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 08:10:29 sledge__ [~sledge@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 08:13:00 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:09 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:15:07 entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:46 nostoi [~nostoi@128.Red-79-145-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:19:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:19:34 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:20:10 plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:20:14 Good morning! 08:20:28 hi 08:20:33 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:44 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:06 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:22:56 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-sffrgdxjaincatvv] has joined #lisp 08:23:59 Hmm, looks like I need to reboot. This is really annoying. 08:24:06 -!- plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 08:24:32 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:24:39 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 08:25:01 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest51355 08:26:30 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:43 plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:37:34 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:38:09 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:18 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:38:55 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@128.Red-79-145-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:40:00 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:40:05 entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:51 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:41:19 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #lisp 08:41:24 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:41:47 entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:26 hello plage 08:44:40 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:44:55 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 08:46:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:47:10 hey mvilleneuve 08:47:14 What's up? 08:49:44 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:49:57 plage: lots of work these days, that's a good thing but it prevents me from working on SICL, which I'd really like to do 08:50:26 Oh, that's no rush. It won't go away! 08:50:45 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-djtcdyhowmubuvrl] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:52:33 plage: have you got any contributions/contributors recently? 08:53:29 mvilleneuve: Not reall. I think idurand has the intention of doing something in April, and perhaps beurton as well. 08:54:05 cool! 08:54:08 mvilleneuve: I have been writing some docstring, but I am busy with other things as well, in particular writing an information system for the department (in Lisp, so on topic). 08:55:59 plage: ah, right, how is that project going? 08:56:18 I think I have been doing around 3 per day on the average. 08:56:39 mvilleneuve: I would like to finish format and loop some time soon as well. 08:58:56 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:59:02 good morning 08:59:10 hello nikodemus 08:59:24 how's life in the academia? 08:59:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:58 nikodemus: Not too bad. This is a tough period because we are in the process of hiring new colleagues, so there are lots of meetings, and emails to process. 09:00:47 well, hiring is still mostly better than firing... 09:01:14 Indeed. What about you? Still an independent consultant? 09:02:10 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:02:26 -!- vng [~user@113.161.70.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:06 still. but if this year doesn't turn out better than the last one, i may have to look for a Real Job(tm) 09:03:24 Ouch! 09:05:32 to a reasonable degree i have only myself to blame, though: i wasn't proactive about looking for new customers last year 09:06:09 How much longer will you stick with it before giving up? 09:07:48 hard to say, really. there are multiple factors all in flux right now 09:08:25 if i haven't given up before end of june i'm likely to hold out the rest of the year 09:10:16 It would be sad if you had to give up. 09:11:03 i agree! 09:16:33 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.63.177.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:19:00 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:20:13 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-156-113.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 09:21:45 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:23:11 Hello Hefner. Still in Thailand I see. 09:24:13 I am. 09:24:23 Work or pleasure? 09:24:48 both. neither. 09:25:06 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:41 *hefner* tries to figure out why ECL performs so horribly 09:27:02 At what? 09:28:32 Well, it's a very cruddy compiler. 09:29:04 pretty much everything. I coded a little binary search so I could look at the generated C and what it compiles down to, but it seems to do pathologically poorly on this test for reasons I haven't identified. 09:29:30 I accustomed to it running 2x the speed of clisp, which isn't inspiring, but here it's running 1/10th the speed. 09:30:07 I think most of its performance relies on inlining to allow gcc to optimize stuff. 09:30:17 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:30:29 ECL needs a cloning machine. 10 Juanjos would do the job :-) 09:30:46 now I think it's lying to me and not actually reloading the code when I modify it. 09:31:27 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.100] has joined #lisp 09:31:49 when I looked at the routine declared (speed 3) (debug 0), it was this horrible mess full of debug crud and every variable declared volatile. apparently it ignores a local (declare (optimize ..)). 09:33:10 good morning 09:33:16 hello trebor_dki 09:39:19 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:42 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:52 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:58 ironChick` [~richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 09:46:51 SBCL is a horrible beast to set up, but it performs mostly well. Certainly it beats ECL any day 09:46:51 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:44 Unless you're doing something that SBCL can't do. 09:48:30 I'm thinking of the default of not including threads, the invalidation of fas'l's between each version. Fixable. But you have to enter the code yourself. 09:49:45 Zhivago, well SBCL ac do everything ECL can do. It is more difficult to embedd it with C/C++ code, yes. 09:50:33 -!- ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 09:50:49 speaking of sbcl. would anyone with an Intel Mac like to test my SBCL-based game? my friend made a mac binary and i would like to see if anyone is interested in testing it. 09:51:15 http://dto.github.com/notebook/xiotank.html 09:51:28 there's a DMG on the download page 09:52:10 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:52:25 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:26 Phoodus [foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:50 heya. 09:54:03 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-sffrgdxjaincatvv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:05 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-155.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:54:53 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ccnccvwpowmbgcbg] has joined #lisp 09:55:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:55:54 -!- plutonas` [~plutonas@port-92-195-239-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:17 younger: Can SBCL compile lisp into .so's? No. 09:58:05 -!- ironChick` [~richard@158.223.51.84] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:58:48 ironChicken [~richard@mx.slab.org] has joined #lisp 09:59:17 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:59:24 Zhivago, well, I've never done it. 10:02:33 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 10:02:45 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:52 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:03:15 dto: worksforme 10:03:41 dto: apropos, have you written about your .dmg creation process somewhere? 10:05:23 nikodemus: a fellow programmer makes them. i've got to extract the information from his brain so that i can buy a mac and do it myself 10:05:58 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:08:40 I made dmgs of sbcl-related things once upon a time 10:09:00 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 10:09:15 a HOWTO would make excellent planet-lisp fodder, i think 10:10:18 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:30 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:10:51 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:11:15 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:09 -!- ironChicken [~richard@mx.slab.org] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 10:13:10 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 10:14:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:15:30 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:16:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:26 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:16:50 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-16-65.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:17:26 nikodemus: I thought I had already blogged about it, but I can't see where 10:17:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:20:23 Does :UNSPECIFIC for a Pathname ever show in the namestring? 10:20:58 -!- rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:20:58 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 10:20:59 (for a given Pathname component) 10:23:33 *easyE* anaswers his own question, "CLHS 19.2.2.2.3.1" 10:23:46 The answer is no. 10:23:59 linedit needs work.. The line by line approach is soo off. You need to edit lisp expressions as one history item. Perhaps I will fix this and deliver a patch. The original author seems uninterested in further developement. 10:25:18 Yet it is clearly not of a quality that is acceptable in the distribution. 10:25:40 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:52 (linedit provides readline like command editing (console) for SBCL) 10:27:32 whee, this is liberating. i finally decided to give up my asdf commit bit 10:28:43 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:31:37 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:45 nikodemus ? 10:32:20 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:49 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-03167.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:13 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:36:37 freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.74.71] has joined #lisp 10:37:13 nikodemus: linedit/TODO mentions refactoring opportunities between linedit and hemlock code. Have you ever investigated those further? 10:37:39 lichtblau: no -- but then i wrote that TODO last week :) 10:37:56 oh, ha. I didn't check logs and assumed it must be ancient. :-) 10:38:55 but: both use terminfo.lisp, want to twiddle with terminal modes, and want to read events from the terminal 10:39:48 so i'm sort of assuming that there's stuff that could be factored into a terminal-control project or something 10:40:09 Right. That is one direction to take. 10:40:43 The other direction I'd be interested in is to concentrate on hemlock, but giving it a special UI on startup that looks like linedit. 10:41:03 Hemlock, when started from the REPL using (ed) can already be "suspended" and re-entered. 10:41:32 So it would be kind of nice if that initial REPL used a hemlock buffer instead of a linedit buffer as its data structure. 10:41:40 ... shared the kill ring with hemlock. etc. 10:42:07 not bad 10:42:17 Ideally, would temporarily switch to the full UI when the user types things like C-c M-i. 10:44:06 I imagine that this could work when that initial REPL is actually a hemlock buffer, but the redisplay mechanism would detect when there is only one window visible with that buffer in it, and then run linedit redisplay code instead of full hemlock redisplay. 10:44:09 i wonder if that would scare off people who just need a line-editing library for their application? 10:44:36 *hefner* was tempted to ask how well linedit would work if he ripped it off to use as a rlwrap replacement for shuffletron 10:44:57 It certainly would, but (a) those people can stick to classic linedit, I guess and (b) nobody except hefner has even done that, and he... [what hefner says] 10:45:20 hefner: that's what it's for! 10:46:17 *lichtblau* doesn't really understand linedit redisplay yet 10:46:29 lichtblau: mostly it just sucks 10:48:42 IIRC i never got multiline editing right -- if your line wraps in the terminal, linedit stiff considers it a single line. if you hit enter in the repl with an incomplete expression, the parts before the new line cannot be edited anymore. ...but IIRC, it's been a long time 10:50:13 hmm. One main optimization I (re-?)enabled in hemlock was to do more agreessive full screen redraws, because a full-screen redraw is actually faster than too many single-line insertions. Now, a linedit-like thing shouldn't redraw the entire screen ever, because it isn't responsible for most of the screen. 10:50:45 right 10:51:12 Now, if it's possible to, conversely, tell hemlock to always go through insertion/deletion instead of full redraws, we should be able to take a five-line hemlock window, and redraw that window without affecting the rest of the screen. 10:51:23 most of the hair in linedit redisplay come from trying to keep the number of terminal commands down to something reasoanble 10:51:41 And then that is the input area for linedit-like behaviour. 10:52:21 As a bonus, on entry to the full UI the REPL scrollback is magically available as a real buffer. 10:52:41 hah, clever :) 10:55:16 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:56:00 sobersabre [~bilbo@85.64.38.222.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:01 pmd [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 10:56:22 hi. is there an online book or resource on lambda calculus to learn about it ? 10:56:23 -!- pmd [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has left #lisp 10:56:39 (I tried wikipedia, but I don't like the way it's written) 10:57:19 there was one nice description of lambda calculus as crocodiles 10:59:22 http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/ 10:59:46 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:03:24 *hefner* puzzles over why code to delete-duplicates that looks quadratic in complexity actually takes cubic time 11:06:49 oh, god. calling POSITION with a :START keyword.. on lists. 11:07:19 Wow! 11:08:04 hefner: It should be possible to make it linear on the average provided you know a good hash function for the elements. 11:11:04 Yeah, this code tries to handle every possible case at once. 11:12:27 amusingly in sbcl REMOVE-DUPLICATEs is likely to run faster 11:12:32 jdz: wow, thanks, you must be brit. 11:13:01 hefner, you are better off with loop 11:13:12 funny thing, there's a special case for lists provided you don't use the start, end, or from-end keywords, but it isn't likely to run, as it expects a null start, but defaults start to 0. 11:13:31 oh, russian-latvian. ok. same same mentality. 11:13:57 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 11:14:04 people any course materials on lambda calculus would be welcome. 11:14:34 handouts/lectures/exercises... I want to understand it before digging into lisp. 11:14:41 nikodemus, in any Lisp. It might better be named collect hit's 11:15:23 -!- koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:16:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:16:36 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:50 Lisp's efficiency modell takes a bit getting used to. But it is all understanding the operations of the underlying datastructures involved. (and understanding that more meneral functions, lie on sequences have a dispatch penalty) 11:17:36 s/lie/like/ s/meneral/general/ 11:17:40 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:46 sobersabre: brit? 11:18:01 sobersabre: oh, nvm 11:18:01 sobersabre: I am afraid the lambda calculus won't help very much in order to learn Lisp. 11:18:05 doesn't explain it, though. hmm. 11:19:35 sobersabre, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lambda-Calculus-Semantics-Foundations-Mathematics/dp/0444875085/ref=pd_ys_qtk_wl_t?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2U5YYFBSRVL5X&colid=2W57UT3JVM5BA&pf_rd_p=217325391&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_t=1501&pf_rd_i=home&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0YA7X7WP3QXR3Z8E75W0 11:19:49 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 11:19:59 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 11:20:17 sobersabre, for a good book "The Lambda Calculus: Its Syntax and Semantics (Studies in Logic and the Foundations of Mathematics) " 11:20:43 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:23:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:26:57 plage: I'm not learning lisp yet, but I will need it in the direction of functional, 11:27:09 which I understand is related to lambda calculus. 11:27:20 I mean functional programming. 11:27:26 Younder: thanks for the books. 11:27:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:57 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661c07-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 11:28:09 So, if I'm browsing math/CS faculties sites about 2nd course in logics I may find some freely avail. material. right ? 11:30:51 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:32:02 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 11:32:09 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:32:40 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:41 you don't need to learn lambda calculus to learn lisp or functional programming 11:33:35 nikodemus: hm... 11:33:45 I'm listening. 11:34:01 that's it. end of message :) 11:34:37 if you are an extremely mathematically inclined person without any programming experience, then learning it first might help, maybe 11:35:14 nikodemus I've started reading wikipedia article on functional programming, and it says the root of fun. prog. is in lambda calculus. 11:35:29 so, I've jumped to it. 11:35:32 :) 11:35:43 /join #cucumber 11:35:45 damnit 11:35:49 (sorry) 11:36:09 it's like this: our computers are based on turing machines -- but you don't need to understand turing machines to do 99% of the things you do on computer 11:36:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:36:27 hell, you don't need to understand them to do 98% of programming 11:37:04 sobersabre: what's your background? 11:37:12 nikodemus: I'd say 95% ... 11:37:44 i'd like to know what's in those 3% 11:37:49 I did take courses in basic set theory and logic, i.e. I do know what's relation calculus, proof systems, their soundness... 11:37:58 s/courses/course/ 11:38:01 programming background, i meant :) 11:39:00 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:39:04 well the standard basic->pascal->{C+ASM}->C++->{Python,Ruby,Perl}... 11:39:34 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:39:35 some java... 11:39:55 minion: tell sobersabre about pcl-book 11:39:55 sobersabre: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:40:26 that's a very good book, and will also introduce some basic fp ideas 11:40:40 okidoc. 11:41:03 but if you really want functional programming instead of the mudball we call lisp, #haskell is the place you want to go, i think 11:41:38 lisp in general, and common lisp especially is not a purely functional language: side-effects are common 11:42:32 it does, however, support functional programming quite well, and fp style is commonly used -- just not exclusively 11:42:37 nikodemus: I have no idea what do you mean by "side-effects", and I don't know if what I need is "pure" 11:42:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:29 iirc pcl discusses that 11:43:37 -!- jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:43:40 I also have an old dead-tree book called "LISP" (3rd edition) (Partic Henry Winston + Berthold Klaus Paul Horn) 11:45:00 but very briefly: if a function is "pure", the results of calling it depend entirely on its arguments, and it does not change the state of its arguments or the rest of the program -- it only interacts with the rest of the world by reading its arguments and returning some values 11:45:25 purely functional programming means writing all your functions like that 11:45:55 ok. I thought the is of functional programming "statelessness"... so I mistakenly assumed in your terms "everything is pure" 11:46:15 s/the is/the idea/ 11:46:32 and is was supposed to come before "statelessness" 11:46:44 Functions do not operate in time. 11:46:58 Essentially in functional programming you turn time into space. 11:47:05 Zhivago: I like this :) 11:47:13 yeah, functional programming does mean your state exists only as the call stack, pretty much 11:47:26 A procedure is a sequencing of operations over time. 11:47:42 Simulate time and you can have procedures, which is what they do in haskell. 11:48:03 In lisp, you have procedures which are often used to simulate functions. 11:48:05 so there's distinction of function vs. procedure... ? 11:48:16 They're completely different things. 11:48:27 A function is a mapping from domain to range. 11:48:38 Zhivago: ok, this is math. 11:48:39 Zhivago is speaking in mathematical sense 11:48:41 A procedure is a sequence of operations. 11:48:47 OK. 11:48:49 I am speaking in a programming sense. 11:48:59 nikodemus: I think I understand Zhivago very well. 11:49:11 An algorithm is a function implemented by a procedure. 11:49:24 i'll leave you to it, then -- bye 11:49:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:49:33 (Which is why algorithms aren't interactive). 11:50:29 Zhivago: you're giving the algorithms a special "functional" context ? 11:51:17 I mean, I can think of interactive algorithms :) 11:51:33 Then I don't think they qualify as algorithms, per se. 11:51:45 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:52 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667826-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:52:05 Turing machines, for example, don't handle interactivity. 11:52:33 You can implement any algorithm with them, though. 11:53:23 Zhivago: OK, I understand your line of thought. 11:55:10 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:59 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:56:17 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:56:45 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:00 Zhivago: I'm stuck with smthg probably basic. Do you mind looking at this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus , paragraph "Motivation", the Sentence starting with "Finally,..." ? 11:57:07 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:57:29 it's probably the notation that puzzled me. if you don't mind, can you understand that sentence ? 11:57:48 Yes. 11:58:09 mega1 [~quassel@53d8277f.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:58:36 x,y -> x*x + y*y as (lambda (x y) (+ (* x x) (* y y))) 11:58:47 they say they can xform x,y->x^2+y^2 into x->(y->x^2 + y^2) 11:59:09 Do you understand lisp syntax? 11:59:28 I think I understand this particular expression 11:59:54 you're running "+" on 2 operands, and each is running "*" on x,x and y,y. 11:59:56 (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ (* x x) (* y y)))) 11:59:57 right ? 12:00:10 Do you know javascript? 12:00:20 -!- plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:23 Zhivago: moment. 12:00:29 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:01:25 the Q is this: I understand how 1 operand or 2 operands functions work, I don't understand why lambda(y) "knows" about x. 12:01:33 does it refer to it as constant ? 12:01:59 This is called 'lexical closure'. 12:02:08 hm... 12:02:09 What programming languages do you know? 12:02:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:02:25 c,c++,ruby,perl,python... 12:02:31 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:02:31 nothing "scientific". 12:03:14 I also know the relational calculus "language", in logic sense, and propositional calculus. 12:03:38 ((lambda x: lambda y: x * x + y * y))(2)(3) 12:04:29 maden [~maden@dsl-153-44.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 12:04:42 Well, you don't need quite so many parentheses. :) 12:04:55 But that's an example of what that sentence is talking about in python. 12:05:01 Zhivago: it's lisp habbit I guess. 12:05:11 No. Lisp rejects excess parentheses. 12:05:22 ok. 12:05:45 (lambda x: (lambda y: x * x + y * y))(2)(3) <- there you go 12:05:48 Nice and neat. 12:05:58 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:59 ok, like I thought. 12:06:10 What happens is that in the inner lambda y is a bound variable, and x is free. 12:06:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:19 In its enclosing lexical scope x is bound. 12:06:31 I think I understand. 12:06:33 ok... 12:06:50 let's move on, I'll probably ask here a couple of q's further more! 12:06:51 thanks! 12:06:53 It captures its free variables that are bound in enclosing scopes and closes an environment over these, sharing them with the origin. 12:06:56 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has joined #lisp 12:06:58 They are not copied. 12:07:05 Ok. 12:09:07 thanks, really, for the patience. 12:09:24 can one check for the existence of a specific method for a generic function or at least if there are any methods implemented ? 12:09:30 I did manage to avoid this aspect of programming somehow (even when learning ruby/python I didn't need to dig into lambda stuff. 12:09:34 _ 12:10:07 Harag: find-method ? 12:10:17 eish 12:10:31 that obvious ...lol 12:10:37 Often the case. 12:10:49 sobersabre: We generally differentiate between ignorance and stupidity. 12:11:08 and there i was hunting for some esoteric mop function 12:11:22 *sigh* 12:15:24 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 12:20:36 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-44-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:21:59 wgl` [~wgl@195.sub-75-204-77.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:24:07 -!- noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:24 noam [~k4jd095b@87.70.183.61] has joined #lisp 12:27:19 -!- wgl` 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13:47:38 yo nyef. 13:51:14 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:36 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:25 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-90.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:39 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:59:00 Oh. Duh. If I can't figure out how to make CL do what I want with a random string of TeX gibberish, try to figure out how to make the editor and TeX-dumper -produce- said random string of TeX gibberish from what CL can handle. 13:59:36 nyef, uh? 14:00:52 minion: paste 96425? 14:00:52 Paste number 96425: "Does this look right for the CLIM MAKE-TRANSFORMATION function?" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/96425 14:01:31 Fare: That, without the |escapes|, but with something to make simple math display right in TeX, while still appearing right to CL. 14:02:15 (And, yes, I am aware that I should be using {xx_2} instead of {xx2} and similar globally. 14:03:01 It looks like absolute trash in the paste, but if you have preview-latex up and running it looks decentish, especially once you strip out the |escapes|. 14:03:10 screenshot? 14:03:29 Can't sync my webspace right now. :-/ 14:04:13 nyef: have you considered adding a reader macro for $$ (two dollar signs)? 14:04:20 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:04:22 pkhuong: Yes, absolutely. 14:04:43 one could cause collisions, but two seems fairly safe. 14:05:33 I was thinking of having $ be a non-terminating macro-character, and be fairly greedy. If I only use it on my own code, it should be safe, right? 14:05:51 yay for local readtables. 14:06:42 *Xach* is reminded of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3174904618055769@naggum.net.html 14:07:36 Fun fact: cl:position on a list is O(n^2) in ECL. Seriously! 14:08:09 hefner, uh? what kind of bogo-position do they use? 14:08:30 "is it in first position? no, is it in second position? no, is it ...." ? 14:08:47 They inline all the memoizations? 14:09:13 position, position-if, and position-if-not are generated from six lines of code, invoking a hairy macro that most of their sequence functions use. I haven't grokked it yet. 14:09:35 Xach: Yeah, something like that. 14:10:32 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:03 Elements of the sequence are retrieved using ELT. That's lovely. 14:11:58 nice 14:14:03 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:16:24 Heh. I don't have my ssh keys handy, so I can't access my web space -at all-. 14:16:59 Might be able to get to my clnet account, though... 14:20:07 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test.png 14:20:50 neat 14:21:09 why aren't those in an array? :) 14:21:32 Because I don't want to cons up an array? 14:21:42 so you cons up a CLOS instance? 14:22:04 Well, they're -supposed- to be CONS instances. 14:22:16 Besides, the same question applies to McCLIM. 14:22:46 maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has joined #lisp 14:22:56 -!- maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has left #lisp 14:23:20 maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has joined #lisp 14:23:31 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:27:00 I can't question Gilbert's judgment, so I'll count that among the mysteries of the universe. 14:27:53 any impls of lisp use 64bit fixnums? 14:28:10 dmiles_afk: i don't think i've heard of one. 14:28:15 Not that I'm aware of, would 63bit suffice? 14:28:19 most max at 54? 14:28:24 54?! 14:28:37 they want rumm for tagbits i guess 14:28:39 54 is ludicrously low for a 64-bit host. 14:28:44 room* 14:28:57 don't put it past clowns like lispworks or clisp! 14:28:59 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has joined #lisp 14:29:33 (i mean the small 'interned' finxnums btw.. not bignums) 14:29:43 interned fixnums? 14:29:59 any real lisp implementation doing it at all? 14:30:04 well they are interned if impl is in java ;P 14:30:24 interned = therefore needs no derefing 14:30:39 sorry that was bad terminalgy i used 14:30:43 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:30:47 That seems like an abuse of the term "intern". 14:30:51 that's what happens when you converse while away from the keyboard. 14:31:01 hefner :) 14:31:05 nyef: heh, you mentioned abuse ;) 14:31:09 maybe too much rumm 14:31:16 hah 14:31:20 nyef: they had like 512 first numbers interned i think 14:31:31 "interned" 14:31:41 hah jdz: did you just use it to? 14:31:43 Yeah, some systems have heap-fixnums. 14:31:43 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:17 -!- maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:32:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:22 but yeah if someone heaps a 512bit zero.. they might intern that 14:32:42 (since zero happens alot) 14:33:23 Anyway, 64-bit SBCL has 61-bit fixnums, as I still haven't landed the 63-bit fixnum tree. 14:34:14 ok thats what i wanted to hear.. i am thinking of skipping 32bit fixnums altogeter and going for 63 14:34:25 31->63 14:35:05 We also have a scheme whereby we could get 31-bit fixnums instead of 30-bit fixnums, but it's a lot of effort, little gain, and would cost us speedwise elsewhere. 14:35:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@nblzone-240-27.nblnetworks.fi] has joined #lisp 14:35:15 Hello nikodemus. 14:35:40 hi 14:36:20 having a defualt 61-bit fixnums in SBCL ssounds really nice.. one type that is typically used 95% of the time 14:36:51 Are you implying that you'd rather have 61-bit fixnums than 63-bit fixnums? 14:37:03 naw.. for me the same thing 14:37:05 hi nikodemus 14:37:15 AqD|Home [~AqD|Home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:18 *hefner* doesn't care so long as he has immediate single-floats 14:37:44 naw.. for me 63 is the same as 61.. i'd have to work harder though to go from 63->61 ;) 14:38:29 Heh. I wouldn't. I just have to change sb!vm:n-fixnum-tag-bits and do a full build. 14:39:26 (bytes 32) for me.. 'a byte is a bit in lisp' 14:40:05 how many bits are sbcl characters? 14:40:34 Can't be more than 24, surely? 14:40:46 ascii or UTF8 14:40:49 Well, 56 on x86-64, but 24 anywhere else... 14:41:00 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 14:41:29 Anyway, it's a unicode code point if you're on a unicode build (the default, I believe). 14:41:57 But it can't be more than 24 because it's an other-immediate, which means it has 8 bits of tag. 14:42:00 lichtblau: are you here? 14:42:09 UTF8 is worse as you never know. You have to 'decompress' it first 14:42:50 base-char is 7, others are 24 -- but actual space used is a full word for either as an immediate object, or 8/32 bits in a string -- 32 in a string non-base-string even for base-chars, of course 14:42:51 Younder: Umm... We're talking internal representation, thus already "decompress"ed. 14:42:55 *lichtblau* is here 14:43:01 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-242.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:08 nyef, ahh 14:45:19 lichtblau: see privmsg 14:46:03 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:27 nyef: thank you 14:47:34 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:49 .. oh a Q.. are basechars sometimes mixed in with extended chars int he same string? 14:48:00 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:48:13 in interal rep that is 14:48:41 HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:48:42 Sure! 14:48:54 that is sort of a confused question :) 14:49:22 internal rep that is..some chars use up 8 bits.. where as others use up 32 14:49:23 A string can handle any characters. A base-string can only handle base-characters. 14:49:56 7bit use 8 and 24bit use 32 14:50:07 *hefner* grumbles about base-chars 14:50:13 Sure, but in a string (not a base-string) all characters use up 32 bits. 14:51:02 no, that's still wrong 14:51:11 a base-string is a string 14:51:27 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@ag-d100.rhi.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 14:51:36 a string is either a base-string, a (simple-array character (*)), or that weird nil thing 14:51:38 ah.. becasue at any time ina non base string someone may have wish to setchar.. and need 32bits in each cell 14:51:56 Oh, right. Forgot about NIL. 14:51:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:52:03 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:34 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:47 go That Weird Nil Thing 14:55:04 unknown tag "That Weird Nil Thing" 14:57:53 generalized boolean. Some people still can't wrap their heads ourond that Charles Boole developed a set theory, thus they think it is binary. 14:59:14 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.144.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:59:57 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.74.71] has quit [Quit: freakrobot] 15:01:33 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:02:38 Younder: Umm. No. "That Weird Nil Thing" is an array specialized to not be able to hold anything. 15:03:31 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:21 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:29 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-106-61.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:38 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:05 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-11-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:17:16 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:17:17 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:29 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:23:00 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:23:58 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:11 tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:16 -!- tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:12 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:17 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:35:30 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:39:02 mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 15:40:10 Nyef, set! 15:40:38 if you think array then the whole thing unravels 15:41:34 -!- meanerelk [~ekemal@erie.bmi.ohio-state.edu] has left #lisp 15:41:44 *hefner* facepalms 15:41:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-106-61.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:41:57 We're not talking about NIL as NIL, we're talking about NIL as a specialized array element type. 15:42:17 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan_ 15:42:18 we are? 15:42:41 Yes. That Weird Nil Thing is an array specialized to hold elements of type NIL. 15:42:51 None might be better in that case' 15:42:53 Because NIL is a subtype of character, it's also a string. 15:43:04 (The array is also a string.) 15:43:12 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:14 Unless, of course, it's a multi-dimensional array. 15:43:15 NIL is so weird :\ 15:43:15 it is a subtype of all types 15:43:28 *Xach* missed context, thought for a moment the topic was #0anil 15:44:16 nyef, are you taliking about the element or the class? 15:44:25 I'm talking about the type. 15:45:13 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:45:20 Xach: good channel name. 15:45:25 The type is a subclass of null and nothing else. 15:45:35 No, it's not. 15:45:50 NIL-as-type is a subtype of every other type. 15:45:52 #0anvil would be a good band name, though 15:45:59 The subclass of all is confusing you 15:46:01 Just as T-as-type is a supertype of every other type. 15:46:46 And you seem to be confusing type and class, even though they are separate (though related) concepts. 15:47:59 They are confusing yes. 15:50:51 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.56] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:55 The type system was developed befor CLOS. So you have to different type classification systems doing approximately the same thing. 15:56:05 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 15:56:44 *nyef* sighs. 15:56:48 No, you don't. 15:57:09 ("Psst. Wanna buy a W?") 15:57:35 Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:57 a class is a valid type specifier :-) 15:59:11 I wonder when I'll have the chance/need to use (typep (class-of )) 16:00:31 tcr: hmm, i tend to think of them as mirrored but not the same... 16:01:04 oh, i see what you mean 16:01:11 *Xach* reads more 16:01:13 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 I view the class hierarchy as a particular subset of the type system. 16:02:14 There may be subtle differences, can't think of any right now. But I lost my language lawyer mind set a few weeks ago, and gave it up for a pragmatic "ultimatively all what counts is getting stuff done" 16:02:48 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:52 subset of the type system sounds good, in particular it's the subset employed by CLOS 16:03:08 like what's valid in specializers, class inheritance 16:03:10 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:53 certainly the type system has subtypes like fixnum that the class sysstem doesn't 16:05:54 slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:34 so yes, they mostly overlap. and the type bit's hang over and provide additional types usefull mostly for optimation, not for classification' 16:08:18 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:08:38 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:09:07 Younder: types also allow for ad-hoc type membership (via SATISFIES), and DEFTYPE in general provides a lot of flexibility that's not part of CLOS. 16:09:44 lot of flexibility? 16:09:50 hyperbole of the day! :-) 16:10:05 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:22 Krystof: herep 16:11:20 the type declaration system is one of the LEAST used features of CL.. 16:11:48 Younder: Speak for yourself! 16:11:53 yo 16:12:22 Hey Krystof, I figured out what the journal publishers were talking about when they say you need to assign copyright to protect against plagarism. 16:12:32 It's not *totally* stupid. 16:12:39 Younder: IME, custom method combinations are one of the least used features, declaring types is something I do fairly often. 16:12:42 only the injured party can initiate legal proceedings? 16:12:46 Basically if they hold the copyright then they have standing to ... 16:12:47 exactly. 16:12:51 nyef, I have tried to use it before. And introduce it many times on comp.lang.lisp. but it never catches on. 16:13:38 nyef, particularly the 'satisfies' bit is hard 16:14:25 You know that at least one lisp compiler can do things with some satisfies types, right? 16:15:07 nyef ? 16:15:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@nblzone-240-27.nblnetworks.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:35 You add you own restraint funtion 16:16:04 function 16:16:26 Type information is typically used by compilers to control optimization. If the compiler knows about a satisfies type predicate, it can use that information to generate better code or better error messages. 16:17:49 Better error messages, yes. Better code? 16:18:10 Could you give an example? 16:18:28 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 16:18:42 Only one that comes to mind involves array displacements, and it's not something I took the time to entirely understand, so no. 16:18:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:22:15 I don't think the array-displacement-p is in mainline sbcl yet. but basically it's to allow a fast-path for aref/setf aref for adjustable but not displaced arrays 16:23:09 it isn't, because /someone/ reneged on their "it's easy" claim 16:23:49 by declaring something with a convenient thing like (and (array double-float) (not simple-array) (satisfies array-adjustable-p)) 16:24:24 I thought that part got done 16:24:38 automatically inferring that, no 16:24:49 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:25:33 yes, sorry 16:25:47 ooh, looks like I even went the extra mile and did vector-push-extend and vector-pop for non-simple non-displaced arrays 16:25:58 really we should merge some of this stuff 16:26:13 some month when nikodemus hasn't already won the commits battle :-) 16:28:10 Heh. That battle wasn't won until about a week ago. 16:28:10 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:27 what does vector-foo boil down to in that case, jsnell? 16:29:05 the same thing, but with a fast aref/setf aref 16:29:32 Does SBCL in fact have two representation for strings, depending on what characters a string contains? 16:29:55 no, it has two representations that constrain the characters that it can contain 16:30:00 And wider-fixnums would be about 12 commits... that'd put me to two behind, I believe... 16:30:09 (and a representation that can't contain any) 16:30:53 Hmmm. Are literal strings legally mutable in CL? 16:31:00 nope 16:31:25 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:31:33 clisp goes the other way and has just one visible string type, but multiple internal representations that can be switched between as the string is mutated 16:31:37 Is simple-character-string the more or less expansive type? 16:32:00 does that even exist? 16:32:35 Wasn't it simple-string or simple-base-string? 16:32:36 (simple-array character (*)) is the type that can contain any character 16:33:15 and then simple-string is (or simple-base-string (simple-array character (*) ...) 16:33:48 So if you have an instance of the less-expansive type and you try to (SETF (CHAR ...)) to some character not allowed in that type, is an error signaled? 16:34:39 should be, iirc 16:35:44 > The value #\TAMIL_LETTER_SA is not of type BASE-CHAR. 16:36:35 marioxcc [~user@200.77.62.181] has joined #lisp 16:36:49 the slides from my ECLM Hamburg talk have a picture of different string representations 16:36:51 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ccnccvwpowmbgcbg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:35 slides 15-20 or so of http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/talks/2005-04-24%20Amsterdam/presentation.pdf 16:41:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181136178.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:42:59 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 16:44:10 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-fkfwaiwcjvhtzupc] has joined #lisp 16:46:33 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-16-65.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:46:44 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:02 gigamonk` [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:08 Hello Fare. 16:48:31 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:48:35 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 16:48:46 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7579b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:07 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-16-65.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:51:29 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 for what ist's worth.. Her is my list partion faction http://paste.lisp.org/+22FS 16:51:52 hi 16:52:01 probably no BLM for March :( 16:52:05 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52:48 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:54:00 Aww. No speaker? 16:54:05 (defmethod partion ((list list) number) (check-type number (integer 1 *)) (loop while list collect (loop repeat number while list collect (first list) do (setf list (rest list))))) 16:56:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:56:55 nice way of partioning a list without the overhead of subseq (o(n) in a list) and length (also o(n)) 16:57:37 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:58:58 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:58 nyef, no speaker 16:59:11 had one, but then none. 16:59:12 narrawly avoids a infinalope loop in the case number = 0 16:59:16 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:16 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:59:16 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:59:29 That sucks. 16:59:29 infinate loop 16:59:53 My transport logistics would have sucked, but I'd still have tried to make it. 17:00:46 Fare: Did you see http://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test.png yet? 17:03:10 nice 17:03:24 so are you using |$foo$| ? 17:03:34 damn git. 17:03:45 balooga: what's the problem ? 17:03:57 Haven't tried to get it working on the lisp side yet, but I'm thinking of having $ be a non-terminating read-macro. 17:04:19 interestingly, you main emacs font isn't anti-aliased... you're not using emacs23 ? 17:04:23 Trying to upload a package to github. Can't seem to update my files now. :( 17:04:28 emacs22, I think. 17:04:37 Whatever came up by default in debian lenny. 17:04:56 emacs23 is worth it for the AA and unicode support. 17:05:15 and it's in debian testing. 17:05:58 nyef, lenny is ancient 17:06:01 Hmm... I'm already running some stuff from testing just to get the intel GMA on this system running close-to-properly, if still a touch unstable. 17:06:39 I hate more and more that debian installations are not reversible. 17:06:45 Has anyone tried NixOS? 17:06:45 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:06:53 "not reversible"? 17:07:06 Fare: I have a VM with NixOS, haven't really spent much time on it, though. 17:07:12 I added my files to the repo using 'git add NEWS'. But then started editing this file before I made the first commit. It committed the empty NEWS file, not the edits. And now git think there are no edits - 'git diff' returns nothing. 17:07:18 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-roliybbvxyeuujmc] has joined #lisp 17:07:31 Try to upgrade Debian. X fails. Try to downgrade X. You can't. You're doomed. 17:07:37 Fare, I have a tough time keeping up with errors myself 17:07:38 Ah. 17:08:04 Try to install a skype add-on. It fails. Try to upgrade skype. It fails. Try to deinstall and downgrade back. It fails. You're doomed. 17:08:18 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:08:24 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-roliybbvxyeuujmc] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:25 yeah, I want to try NixOS. Been on my TODO list for a while. 17:08:47 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-epkfmqbvxotkicda] has joined #lisp 17:09:15 Hmm... NixOS looks fairly clever. 17:09:46 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:10:37 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066173.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 17:11:32 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:11:33 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-16-65.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:36 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:58 I need to get hold of the original release of Star Wars. My 9-year old won't believe me that Han shot first. 17:12:53 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:55 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-16-65.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:14:10 -!- nickjd [~76ecc527@gateway/web/freenode/x-kmuzvawyzqduecvo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:15:10 Fare: I just want a filesystem with snapshots/checkpoints/whatever so that I can take one before an upgrade and roll back if it fails (or sidestep into it temporarily) 17:15:46 hefner: Can't you do that at the block device level, such as through device-mapper? 17:16:18 nyef: dunno. In a way that doesn't involve me cloning the whole disk? 17:17:11 Yeah, builds the working image as a changeset against a baseline, and you can revert to the baseline easily enough. 17:17:22 ... At least, I think that's how it works. 17:17:26 *Xach* took advantage of that with vmware to test an 8.10->10.4 update (which failed) 17:17:27 hefner, that too. 17:17:31 hefner, venti? 17:17:33 that's the state of art in filesystems 17:17:34 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:18:17 what's wrong with shooting first? Better than being shot first. 17:20:06 dabr [~damian@192-18.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:20:30 (defmethod partion ((list list) number) (check-type number (integer 1 *)) (loop while list collect (loop repeat number while list collect (first list) do (setf list (rest list))))) 17:20:44 sigh 17:21:26 actually tha't damn near optimal 17:21:32 nickjd [~76ecc527@gateway/web/freenode/x-cwidmujvcumybeff] has joined #lisp 17:23:15 These day's I'm mostly' relearing assembly language 17:23:33 hefner: if you feel adventurous, try btrfs 17:23:40 or switch to opensolaris 17:23:43 These GPU's has me a bit miffed 17:23:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181136178.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:24:05 hefner: that's how solaris admins do system updates 17:25:37 fe[nl]ix: not exactly, and I'd avoid OpenSolaris and use Solaris 11 instead 17:25:52 less braindamage from mixing ubuntu and solaris 17:26:02 avoid both and use a linux 17:26:32 suse and redhad are the supported (commercial) versions 17:26:37 redhat 17:27:21 now I'm interested to do periodic runs of hashing all my disk blocks, so I can see how many of them change or move around on a weekly/monthly basis, to estimate the cost of snapshotting at the block device level 17:27:32 Solaris will go the way of the SPARC... 17:27:45 Just try it, and see how fast the changeset volumes grow? 17:27:59 Younder: SPARC still seems healthy, despite Oracle buyout 17:28:06 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-67.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:28:09 Younder: though the hw STM chip seems to be scrapped 17:30:30 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:01 nyef: I haven't ascertained if or how to do this with Linux yet 17:31:23 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.82.251] has joined #lisp 17:31:44 Have a look at LVM2 and device-mapper. 17:32:39 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:32:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:32:56 hefner: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/snapshots_backup.html 17:33:41 (MAKE-PATHNAME :host nil :device nil :DIRECTORY '(:relative :WILD-INFERIORS) :DEFAULTS "/**/") 17:33:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:33:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:33:54 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:33:55 Why does that return "**/"? 17:34:20 instead of "/**/"? 17:34:32 (or "/**/**/") 17:34:54 easyE: you supply a directory, so none is taken from the defaults. 17:35:00 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:35:22 THis isn't the same as MERGE-PATHNAMES then? Ok. 17:35:26 Nope. 17:35:30 THanks. 17:37:59 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.82.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:21 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:40:59 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Quit: <.>.<.>] 17:44:28 jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has joined #lisp 17:44:56 easyE, yeah, it's not merge-pathnames, it's make-pathname 17:45:10 easyE, hi! 17:46:28 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:48:23 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-124-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:29 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-124-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:48:30 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:27 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:45 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:51 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:52:59 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:52:59 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:53:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ukuonzxftrjllyuf] has joined #lisp 18:00:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:00:19 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:01:59 Hey. ABCL's implmentation of make-pathname had a MERGE-PATHNAMES in the middle of it. 18:02:34 It was the codepath from MAKE-PATHNAME and the #P reader, but neither should have that behavior as I understand it. Patching trunk now. 18:02:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ukuonzxftrjllyuf] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:02:53 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:04:08 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:09:42 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:23 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F48D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:11:36 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:11:39 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:51 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 18:12:00 LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:03 easyE, yay. 18:12:25 btw, ecl now passes all the janderson pathname tests. Our problem was conflict with old asdf loaded in ecl. 18:12:39 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:57 is there a consensus that it's wrong for me to enable the asdf output translations by default? 18:13:02 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 18:13:34 Not by me. I was just opining for me. 18:13:38 because if I disable said translations, then it becomes wrong to search in /usr/share for lisp source to compile. 18:14:12 I figured that enabling by default was the right thing. I know noone who REALLY wants objects in his face. 18:14:36 though I do know people who want them at a non-default place. 18:14:48 Well, I have a prob. with a file that depends on *load-pathname* 18:14:56 *nyef* is suddenly reminded of a windows 3.1-era joke programming environment "Objects Through Windows". 18:15:07 Fare: I noticed you didn't chime in on pascal costanza's apparently asdf-related question on comp.lang.lisp. 18:15:33 Fare: seems related to your consensus question 18:15:42 So that's alwys going to break going from asdf1 right? 18:15:47 Xach, I haven't read c.l.l for years. 18:16:03 easyE: for some definition of "break". 18:16:07 Fare: What a responsive and responsible infrastructure maintainer you will be. 18:16:21 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 18:16:21 Xach: :-/ 18:16:32 Xach: the official ASDF support channel is NOT c.l.l 18:16:48 maybe it was, ten years ago. 18:16:54 Ah, a bureaucracy. 18:16:59 :( :( :( 18:17:38 seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:12 I don't even have a newsreader, and google groups is polluted with spam :( 18:18:13 I'm not usually a reddit reader, but please remind me to look when asdf2 goes up there. It's going to be fun to watch that. 18:18:21 Ugh. I'm going to have to rebuild my kernel -again- in order to try and get my sound card working properly. :-( 18:18:25 asdf2 on reddit??? 18:18:40 Fare: ok, that is too cruel. let me get you a direct link to his post. 18:20:29 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:17 Fare: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/29de021c902e9caa is the message I had in mind 18:22:39 Xach: and you gave the correct reply! 18:22:40 thanks :) 18:22:51 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:35 shouldn't that function interpret strings the ASDF way, though? 18:23:53 It's gonna break things. 18:24:53 But I guess just id that out front. 18:25:53 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:26:14 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:23 easyE, what's gonna break what? 18:26:23 mle [~emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:28 -!- sobersabre [~bilbo@85.64.38.222.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:26:32 changing system-relative-pathname ? 18:26:42 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-41-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:55 sobersabre [~bilbo@85.64.38.222.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:01 it's a recent function, hopefully only active developers able to upgrade their API will use it. 18:27:37 oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.111.136] has joined #lisp 18:27:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:11 No, code that depends on *load-pathname* to find the directory of the Lisp file. 18:29:29 I guess we have :ASDF2 in *features*, that we can conditionalize on. 18:29:54 Any code that does that is fragile anyway, and has earned its breakage. 18:30:15 is the only way to get an adjustable vector with (make-array len :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t) ? 18:31:24 Heey... package locks! I bet those would go quite well with the one-file-per-package scheme... 18:31:31 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:40 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:52 package locks? 18:32:35 You need a once-only option. 18:32:42 LeoDioxide: you might get actually adjustable arrays under other circumstances, but they are not explicit in the standard. 18:32:53 Younder: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Package-Locks.html#Package-Locks 18:32:56 roger that 18:33:14 A "once-only" option? 18:33:53 code that depended on *load-pathname* was broken before, too. 18:34:23 (at least on the many deployments which already used asdf-binary-locations) 18:34:32 ah that! Of cource you want/have a mechanism to disallow redefinition of CL functions. 18:35:31 Phoodus [foo@97-124-121-147.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 Haven't really run into it since my ACL days (2000-2002) 18:36:54 Younder: No, I want to use that on my own packages, lock them all by default, then either use implementation packages (which, oops, I'd need to forward-declare) or explicit nastiness to disable them as needed. 18:37:27 it would be interesting if (setf (setf x 1) 2) assigned X to 2. 18:37:32 It's an explicit limitation of scope for program understanding. 18:37:52 hefner: As opposed to assigning 1 to 2? 18:38:01 yeah 18:38:12 nyef, that really isn't avvised.. 18:38:19 advised 18:38:20 Chinese-curse sense of interesting. 18:38:25 Younder: Oh? Why not? 18:38:33 hefner: when would you use that?? 18:38:57 Well AFTER you have developed it it is fine. 18:39:16 I'm still having trouble seeing the problem during development. 18:39:43 Otherwise you will spend more time getting around the limitations than the occasional name collision makes you. 18:40:18 easyE, btw, I included the non-revert-to-1.640 bits of your patch in 1.643 -- can you test? 18:40:19 Nope, failing to see why. 18:40:43 Nyef: well try and see 18:40:48 I will! 18:41:05 Once I have SBCL installed again and my project tree handy. 18:41:36 foom: any news from llvm-sbcl? 18:41:39 madnificent: if you had a symbol macro or other macro-generated snippet expanding to the inner SETF, I imagine. 18:41:53 Fare: haven't worked on it in months 18:42:09 Fare: there's a git repo that anyone else can continue work on though! :) 18:43:32 hefner: Feels simultaneously a bit contrived and as if someone didn't design their macrology well in the first place. 18:43:34 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:43:38 I did rewrite/fix up a tool to generate and manipulate kerberos keytabs and computer accounts with Active directory though. :) 18:44:13 nyef: yes, and yes. 18:44:58 postamar [~postamar@206-248-165-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:45:50 gcl seems badly broken. Is it being maintained? Is it just the debian package lagging far behind? 18:46:13 Fare, forget it 18:46:21 maxima is the only system I'm aware of that uses gcl by default. 18:46:26 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 18:46:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:46:50 Fade, even maxime now has SBCL as default (last I checked) 18:46:53 Fade: even then, many distros switched to SBCL 18:47:00 Hrm... Actually, it looks like implementation packages have the semantics I need anyway... 18:47:03 SBCL or CLISP 18:47:13 SBCL 18:47:18 ok, so gcl is dead, ecl is the last survivor of the kcl line? 18:47:20 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:47:43 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@rrcs-67-78-79-54.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:48 Fade, barely, I wouln't count on that either 18:47:56 gcl probably survives in some places, but it's rare 18:48:10 last time I had seen real notice of it being used was in CERN, but it was dated 2006 18:48:40 computers evolve, you need a certain minimum momentum to keep up 18:49:38 These system's don't see enough support to keep up, let alone add new features 18:50:37 -!- HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:50:48 are you talking about ecl? 18:51:10 Clearly, these systems need to have enough smarts to evolve -themselves- to keep up. 18:51:15 it is never completely clear to me that younder knows what he's talking about, at all. 18:51:24 Mostlty gcl, but I thing ecl is going the same way. 18:51:37 think 18:51:39 Axius [~hi@92.82.64.147] has joined #lisp 18:51:41 Younder: you're thinging wrong 18:51:55 how so? 18:52:55 Thinning out the number of CL distributions is basically a good thing. 18:53:04 now that we are so few 18:53:15 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 18:53:19 not few enough.. 18:53:22 Fade: There does seem to be some sort of persistent mis-comprehension somewhere. 18:53:25 why a good thing? 18:54:05 you don't win really big by thinning out implementations until you go from 2 to 1 18:54:32 We can focus on bringing forward a good distribution not 20 bad oned with a couple of decent ones noone knows about. 18:54:33 I suppose it depends on your goal 18:55:11 Younder: You can focus on that anyway. Pick one and hack on it. 18:56:08 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 18:56:10 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*jthing@212.251.245.* 18:56:14 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 18:56:16 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has been kicked from #lisp 18:56:27 *Fade* laughs 18:56:34 bravo 18:56:35 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!brah@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/* 18:56:50 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*kbrooks@d235-141-58.home1.cgocable.net 18:57:23 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 18:59:18 I wish there was a better way to have collective ignorance of Younder. My individual ignorance is bliss, until everyone gets sucked into the stupidity vortex and starts yelling at him. 18:59:55 *Xach* waits for an angry, typo-ridden denouncement of his character on c.l.l., again 19:00:23 meh. 19:00:41 Anyway, Juanjo seems to be doing a stellar job with supporting ECL. I don't see it dying. 19:00:51 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.64.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:00:51 who don't know Younder may believe him 19:01:02 any windows user can try the latest ASDF? 19:01:37 i see ecl progressing faster than SBCL 19:02:00 though SBCL is already pretty mature 19:02:07 ECL is a dead end unless someone can pull a 10x performance improvement out of their hat 19:02:29 is ecl faster than clisp? 19:02:40 hefner: a faster CPU? 19:02:43 froydnj: somewhat. 19:02:44 That might be amusing. I should finish knitting my hat, then see if I can pull a performance improvement out of it... 19:06:21 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 19:06:57 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:07:00 ECL works better and better with each passing month, but it feels a bit ridiculous to have such long compilation times and hairy translation to C for a system with poor debugging support and performance closer to a bytecoded implementation 19:07:26 how does one check if a class is based on a specific superclass/metaclass ? 19:07:50 subtypep? 19:07:53 mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:08:02 eish 19:08:22 subtypep for the one, typep for the other, surely? 19:08:24 is C++ interop any less hairy in ECL than sbcl or ccl? 19:09:05 Heh. I'd expect ECL C++ interop to be better than SBCL purely on the strength of stack unwind. 19:09:12 Fade, at least slightly, since ECL can be the dll loaded from C++, rather than having to be the master loading the C++ dll. 19:09:13 Fade: it can be with inline C/C++ and compilation with C++ compiler 19:09:32 *p_l* had a C++ build of ECL for win32 19:09:33 Fade: I think it would be excellent, if ECL's C++ option were not presently broken 19:09:46 p_l, can you try ASDF on windows? 19:09:47 thanx ... i am having trouble finding stuff like that becuase I use the wrong termanoligy...*sigh* 19:09:56 well, that alone seems like a niche that ECL could live in. 19:10:13 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-242.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:10:19 assuming, of course, that it will get unbroken. 19:10:26 hence the E in ECL for "Embeddable". 19:10:53 Fare: not currently, unless I use one of university's computers 19:11:18 which tend to go "java" regarding programming 19:13:22 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:13:48 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:00 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:05 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:18:39 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-177.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:37 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 19:21:14 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:21:49 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:21:51 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 19:23:49 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:25:24 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:52 entropi [~entropi@nat/intel/x-czxytfwpxkjwatlg] has joined #lisp 19:26:19 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-fkfwaiwcjvhtzupc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:18 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-epkfmqbvxotkicda] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:30:04 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:26 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 19:32:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:33:00 how does one test the emptyness of a vector? 19:33:04 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.77.62.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:12 LeoDioxide: (zerop (length vector)) is one possibility 19:33:27 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:33:55 ah, that works, thank you Xach 19:34:04 Axius [~hi@92.82.64.147] has joined #lisp 19:34:46 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:38:09 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:13 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 19:38:37 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:41:53 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:59 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 19:43:43 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.111.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:44:01 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:44:23 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:29 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 -!- dabr [~damian@192-18.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: dabr] 19:48:36 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:50 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 19:58:40 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:48 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:00:21 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:45 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 20:01:21 marioxcc [~user@200.77.62.181] has joined #lisp 20:01:31 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 20:01:49 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:03:20 drewc: herep? 20:03:41 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:03:55 hmm 20:04:14 what would be an appropriate way to collect items in a dolist loop? 20:05:02 LeoDioxide: why does it necessarily have to be a dolist loop? 20:05:02 LeoDioxide: (let ((result '())) (dolist (item somelist (nreverse result)) ... (push something result)))))))) 20:05:05 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.64.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05:14 LeoDioxide: if you don't use dolist, LOOP can be terse for the task 20:05:23 yeah, I noticed that 20:05:35 I'm working with a compiler that doesn't have loop implemented yet though 20:05:51 load sacla loop and bob is your uncle. 20:07:37 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066173.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:56 hah, thanks 20:08:06 I was thinking push wouldn't persist outside of the dolist block 20:08:16 rather, the values wouldn't, and it would be moving pointers 20:08:51 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-lrgloxvidcxxyctm] has joined #lisp 20:11:13 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:34 -!- skv [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:12:57 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:44 Heh. Just turned up a mixed box of 30-pin and 72-pin SIMMs. 20:14:57 If your Mac SE's memory isn't already maxed out, you're in luck! 20:15:37 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 20:15:41 I ditched the SE/30 (yes, maxed out) once I realized that nobody on the NetBSD/mac68k list actually cared anymore. 20:16:00 Pity, too, that was -the- great mac form factor. 20:16:29 *rme* has a working maxed-out Mac SE; it runs MCL 2.0. 20:16:55 nyef: totally agree 20:17:59 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:16 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:18:24 I was also so completely annoyed when some linux guy got his no-macos booter working before I did... Especially since it was a simple bug on my part. 20:19:06 mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:20:04 -!- jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has quit [Quit: Restart X.] 20:20:10 nyef: some people have been retrofitting new computers into that case. :) 20:20:49 It's just not the same, though, you know? 20:21:20 -!- rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:48 rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:54 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:01 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.8.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:22 jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has joined #lisp 20:22:27 it's amazing how quickly 68k disappeared 20:22:49 cmm [~cmm@109.65.8.141] has joined #lisp 20:23:16 Compared to x86-32? Yes. 20:23:32 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@rrcs-67-78-79-54.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 20:23:52 -!- rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:04 Well, like debian dropped 68k a while ago cause the kernel support for NPTL hadn't been added for so long that glibc dropped compatibility for the old threads stuff. 20:24:10 "Maybe the motherboard manufacturers should have added a backwards-compatability mode to run x86-32 programs on their x86-64 hardware." 20:24:18 rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:56 nyef: great idea, why didn't anyone think of that... 20:25:37 Joy. Bloody hard drive doesn't -quite- line up with the screw holes in this floppy drive bay, and there's no other bay in this box free that I have mounting hardware for, so I'm going to end up with a loose drive in the case. :-/ 20:25:50 dremmel 20:26:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:26:40 Axius [~hi@92.82.64.147] has joined #lisp 20:26:43 Don't have, and unmounting everything so that the little metal bits can't get anywhere critical would be a royal pain. 20:26:53 :/ 20:27:54 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:31 There we go, rearranged things so that there's insufficient slack in the drive cable for the drive to slide so far back as to hit the CPU.., 20:29:41 nyef: use some material to fill space if the bay is too big 20:31:02 jeti [~jeti@p548EEBBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:24 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.64.147] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:36 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.77.62.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:33:49 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:36:09 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:57 Heh. "/dev/hda2 has gone 757 days without being checked, check forced." 20:37:44 Noisy bloody power supply fan, though, and it's not a standard ATX supply, either. :-/ 20:37:48 nyef: it's oh so much fun when you reboot a machine and win the fsck lottery, so your machine is down 20 minutes longer than you expected! 20:37:51 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:38:28 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:38:35 Hey, these disks haven't seen much use in a while. 20:38:58 foom: better than having a bloody idiot reset the machine because it looks like it hung - based on leds, not display. Real Story 20:39:19 I actually had a 50% shot at them not booting and me having to figure out how to make the system usable. 20:39:34 (of course, the idiots resetted it during fsck. on FFS. bloody hell, good thing it happened to someone else) 20:39:53 (Since I really don't want to have to swap which bays the drives are in or monkey with the jumpers.) 20:40:00 Ok. I'll try Windows now. 20:40:16 fwiw, the nptl bits have since been added for coldfire (not sure about generic m68k, but I think so) 20:40:35 This is trunk or 0.19.x? 20:41:04 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:41:39 perhaps debian will resuscitate the port 20:43:30 keepguessing [~7aa764ba@gateway/web/freenode/x-xmsykhbkhnlumyor] has joined #lisp 20:45:14 easyE: wrong channel? 20:45:38 Yep. Sorry about that. 20:48:42 keepguessing pasted "Basic Error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96480 20:49:10 Hi, i am learning lisp .. tried writing the statement (DEFINE A (* 5 5)) and I got the following error http://paste.lisp.org/+22G0 20:49:41 or the one mentioned above by lisppaste. Please help me with what am I doing wrong here ?? 20:49:43 that's scheme syntax 20:49:59 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 20:50:03 you want (defvar a (* 5 5)) in common lisp 20:50:06 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:26 oh the sample said it was about lisp :) 20:50:30 keepguessing: if you're using scheme, try #scheme 20:50:51 if you're using common lisp, check out practical common lisp 20:50:58 Fade: I am trying the samples in http://www.archive.org/details/SICP_4_ipod 20:51:13 sicp uses scheme 20:51:17 you want #scheme, and a scheme implementation like mzscheme 20:51:18 And the folk there said it was list :) 20:51:19 drscheme 20:51:20 etc 20:51:42 lisp is a family of languages, but this channel is about common lisp, a dialect in the lisp family. 20:51:44 Ah .. but I have installed SBCL with SLIME .. and wanted to learn lisp 20:51:52 in that case... 20:51:58 Ah Fade now I get it :) 20:51:58 minion: tell keepguessing about PCL 20:51:59 keepguessing: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:52:20 keepguessing: SICP is not really about learning lisp or scheme, but about programming in general 20:52:20 Fade: Are you aware of any videos for this?? 20:52:34 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:52:54 SICP is brilliant, but the lisp involvement is almost incidental. 20:52:54 stassats: Yeah ... I realised this .. but it is good to undertand the perspective and the constructs together .. 20:52:55 :) 20:53:20 hi fare and friends. if anyone is interested in trying my new lisp game, there are win/mac/linux binaries at http://dto.github.com/notebook/xiotank.html :) 20:54:01 hmm .. any video tutorials on lisp Fade ?? 20:54:02 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:16 i meant common lisp 20:54:49 nothing that can substitute reading practical common lisp 20:55:13 well.. there are common lisp videos, but not in the mode of SICP. 20:55:18 stassats: hmm alright hanks for the advice ... Then I will not try to replace 20:55:44 *Fade* seconds stassats' 20:56:14 -!- rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:14 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:56:42 rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:51 Released what? I was talking about the PROGV fix from last week. 20:56:58 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:07 *easyE* apologizes. 20:57:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:30 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:59:04 felideon: T 21:00:06 TR2N [email@89-180-153-245.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 drewc: what are you using to serve static content these days? mod_lisp? 21:01:10 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 21:03:06 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:20 prxq [~mommer@f050206207.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:28 hi 21:03:53 felideon: a web server.... whichever is handy 21:04:09 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:24 felideon: i always throw a reverse proxy in front of the app, and serve most static content from my static content server 21:04:52 drewc: right 21:04:56 marioxcc [~user@200.77.62.181] has joined #lisp 21:05:32 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:20 drewc: have you tried nginx? I wonder if it's as good as people have said 21:06:22 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:07:08 has anyone here tried to build sbcl's docs lately? 21:07:13 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:07:37 felideon: I've tried it when using rails... nginx is quite fine in that context (and rails generates static files too) 21:08:06 felideon: (in the sense that it generates static files and reuses them, instead of always generating the same content over and over) 21:09:52 I see 21:10:29 the configuration is fairly straight-forward (if that is of any importance) 21:10:40 also: couldn't we make a fast lisp static file server? 21:11:03 out of NIH? 21:11:19 NIH?? 21:11:25 not invented here 21:11:26 Not Invented Here 21:11:27 out of NWIL (not written in lisp) syndrome:P 21:11:46 no, it is what felideon was saying :D 21:11:51 -!- LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:11:58 prxq: I haven't tried building the docs in a month or so, why? 21:12:03 that's the same 21:12:13 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.64] has joined #lisp 21:12:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:43 stassats: not necessarily (but probably the meaning you intended) 21:13:27 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@pool-173-71-25-61.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:09 nyef: I get an error: /home/mommer/dev/sbcl/sbcl-1.0.36-x86-64-linux/doc/manual/sbcl/Method-sb_002dbsd_002dsockets_003asocket_002dmake_002dstream-_0028_0028socket-socket_0029-_0026key-input-output-_0028element_002dtype-_0027character_0029-_0028buffering-full_0029-_0028external_002dformat-default_0029-timeout_0029.html: File name too long 21:14:29 that's...some filename 21:14:42 make: *** [html-stamp] Error 1 // rm sbcl.dvi asdf.dvi 21:15:16 froydnj: yeah, I can sympathize with whatever has to deal with it :-) 21:15:21 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:22 254 chars 21:15:42 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:15:51 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7579b6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:42 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 21:16:43 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:50 drewc annotated #96381 "....And a compiler for an AST... we can see where this is going..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96381#5 21:18:05 _3b: ljames: ^^ 21:18:58 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:19:01 oooppss ... forget to add the metaclass to the generated classes 21:20:02 <_3b> drewc: might want to separate the conditionalization from the parsing in your mop syntax 21:20:38 <_3b> drewc: so you can use the parser for both reading and writing 21:21:31 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:21:43 drewc annotated #96381 "that needs a :metaclass" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96381#6 21:22:11 parser... for writing? 21:22:29 <_3b> right (possibly rename the option too :) 21:22:43 a compiler, of sorts? 21:22:44 how does one write with a parser? 21:22:54 <_3b> magic of course :) 21:23:10 *_3b* is talking about the mop version, not the ast compiler stuff 21:23:26 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 21:23:31 sdrawkcab resrap eht gninnur yb 21:23:48 <_3b> in my lib, the same code fragment read, writes, and calculates the size of the slot 21:24:01 <_3b> at least for most of them, a few needed separate code 21:24:02 marioxcc` [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 21:24:02 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:14 <_3b> that's where something like contextl comes in 21:24:20 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:38 i just don't understand how it can do that, or why it _should_... how does a parser work in reverse? 21:24:50 i mean, i understand the desire to write binary data... 21:25:05 <_3b> so call it ':type' instead of ':parser' 21:25:18 a type and a parser are different things 21:25:25 <_3b> right 21:25:29 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.77.62.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:25:31 How does a parser work in reverse? What you do is use it to calculate the most probable input given some specific output. 21:25:46 so why would i call my parser :type ? 21:26:01 <_3b> to avoid cnfusing you about it working for read and write 21:26:24 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc 21:26:25 this comes full circle to : how do you write with a parser? 21:26:45 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:26:48 <_3b> for example (cint) in read context pulls bits out of a stream and returns an int... in write context, it takes an int and writes bits to a stream 21:26:54 -!- marioxcc is now known as Guest19210 21:27:01 why does it have to be the same function? 21:27:12 <_3b> so you don't have to type it twice :) 21:27:15 Actually, what you do is you don't use a parser, you define a mapping between external and internal formats. Use that mapping one way and it's a parser. Use it the other way, and it's not. 21:27:34 <_3b> imaginge you have 4000 lines of definitions with your syntax, and want to add writing support 21:27:48 <_3b> do you want to go back and modify every single slot definition by hand? 21:28:52 Define your mapping, generate your parsers and unparsers automatically instead of by hand. 21:29:08 _3b: (cint) is a parser.. it's not related to the type of the slot in any way. You do understand that i'm writing a parser here.. i'm doing READ. PRINT or WRITE is related, but (cint) is not going to magically become a type name... you misunderstand what i'm writing if you think that's the case. 21:29:20 what nyef said. 21:30:04 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:28 that is to say, when my class does have a :binary-type option, it will also have a :parser option that, most of the time, will be derived from the :binary-type option 21:30:54 <_3b> ok, i guess if you just still haven't gotten that far, i won't worry about it :) 21:30:57 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:30:59 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:31:12 konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 21:31:33 *nyef* once again has a linux bootstrapping problem, only this time the machine won't boot from a usb key. 21:31:54 <_3b> actually, i guess i really mean something like :accessor anyway (except not actually accessor, since that is used elsewhere) 21:31:55 it's not really a matter of getting that far... that's a different library alltogether. 21:32:31 i might want to write binary files from classes that are not also parsers 21:32:43 nyef: netboot 21:32:48 or isn't that an option either? 21:33:08 <_3b> yeah, i guess it is just different design goals then 21:33:15 the metaclasses _will_ compose.. that's how i write them... but they remain separate so i can use them indepentdently 21:33:29 *_3b* was most concerned about minimizing the work to write those 4kloc of definitions :) 21:33:35 madnificent: Don't have a long enough cable for the wired network, doubt it'll work on the usb wireless card, and am not sure there's a netboot driver in the thing -anyway-. 21:33:39 nyef: what machine is that? 21:33:55 <_3b> and having to write a separate definition to define writing would have doubled it 21:33:57 if it has a floppy, you can use etherboot. 21:34:04 prxq: It's a sony vaio from a few years ago. 21:34:04 or write the etherboot loader to a cdrom. 21:34:32 Fade: Just yanked the floppy drive so I could fit another hard drive, and there's no spare drive interfaces to put a rom drive on. 21:34:35 _3b: surely you can see that it's trivial to derive that extension. What i'm more worried about is a solid base. syntax is _easy_ ... this is lisp 21:35:02 put the boot drive in another machine and run debbootstrap on it. 21:35:08 <_3b> drewc: my point is that an extension can't decompose ($when ... (do-something)) for you 21:35:24 About the only thing going for this situation is that there's still an old gentoo install in there that boots. 21:35:28 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:35 _3b: no.... why would it have to? 21:35:48 _3b: and extension can surely generate such a thing.. non? 21:36:20 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:38 _3b: you are still conflating a parser with a 'binary class' library. A parser is a part of that.. and useful outside of that. 21:38:01 and... why can't that exact syntax work for a writer anyway? 21:38:22 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:40 <_3b> for that case it can, but what if field A says whether field B is present in the file 21:39:01 and what? 21:39:12 that's already handled by GET 21:39:12 <_3b> unless you maintain field A by hand in the class, writing field B depends on the presence of field B in the object 21:39:24 nyef: extract the harddrive, plug it into an usb frame, install linux there, put it back :-) 21:39:25 $GET rather. 21:39:51 _3b: you've got me all confused again :) 21:39:57 I really don't want to take the case off this thing again, though. 21:40:17 -!- Guest19210 is now known as marioxcc` 21:40:50 <_3b> drewc: don't worry about it, i'm not expressing myself very well anyway :) 21:41:29 (defclass foo () ((a :parser (cint)) (b :parser ($when (> 1 ($get foo a)) (cint))))) 21:41:51 b depends on a 21:42:29 b will only be bound and parsed if a is < 1 21:42:33 <_3b> ok, now make it write a 1 for a when b is present in the object, and not write a 1 for a otherwise 21:43:03 Oh. Heh. I have GRUB installed, and can access USB disks from linux. Now, where can I get a netinst type image that will support my wireless card...? 21:43:31 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43:44 why a one? 21:43:47 nyef: that all sounds painful 21:44:22 Of -course- it's painful. But not as painful as a 500gig file transfer over my localnet. 21:44:28 <_3b> actually, possibly it does work, just a bit more indirectly 21:44:42 (Which I'm hoping to get to tonight, provided I can get the target system online.) 21:44:47 matehat [~matehat@poste120-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has joined #lisp 21:44:54 yeah, it's a bit convoluted, and i wouldn't do it like that, but c can write a 1 if b is there 21:45:12 <_3b> and not write a at all? 21:45:28 yeah, sure... we're using continuations after all 21:45:36 it's a doing all if it in reality 21:45:42 sorry 21:45:47 it's 'a' doing all of it 21:46:25 all the reading/writing is actually done from within the dynamic extent of the function which is parsing/writing 'a' 21:46:29 *_3b* likes just defining lisp-side reader for A in terms of B, instead of storing it better 21:47:11 you gave me a convoluted task and asked if it could handle it... it does .. i didn't say that's the best way to do it ;) 21:47:28 <_3b> no, it isn't convoluted... i have lots of those to deal with 21:48:04 well, it's convoluted to shoehorn it into a parser syntax 21:48:06 <_3b> the explanation might have been a bit convoluted though :) 21:48:40 <_3b> right, like you said, we are talking about different things :p 21:49:11 i would personally specialise on a print-foo-to-bar type method and deal with things there rather than in the class definition. 21:49:24 if there is a lot of them, they probably get their own generic function protocl 21:49:37 <_3b> which 'them'? 21:49:39 -!- moshisushi [~henry@h-121-175.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:09 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:12 them being 'structures where a certain slot being written depends on the value of another slot' 21:50:19 *_3b* isn't worried so much about the implementation 21:50:19 -!- matehat [~matehat@poste120-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:50:19 erato [~user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has joined #lisp 21:50:27 obviously :) 21:50:47 the syntax doesn't interest me at all, and it seems to be your primary concern :) 21:51:24 i'm interested in implementations... the same syntax can paper over many different implementations, but some are better than others 21:52:34 <_3b> right, your strategy probably works out better in th elong run :) 21:52:41 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:53:49 -!- prxq [~mommer@f050206207.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:30 that said, i wouldn't be using the same syntax for the parser and the printer regardless... a 'super-syntax' that combines them both. I do this even in my own libraries... i have two libraries that i've never used alone, and a third library that combines them and adds syntax. 21:54:58 <_3b> yeah, that sounds reasonable 21:55:05 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:55:07 they are probably useful standalone, but that's not the point... by thinking of them as standalone i create a better system 21:55:32 the very act of packaging something and creating an .asd turns it into a higher quality work :) 21:55:36 fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.203] has joined #lisp 21:56:00 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:56:09 the one-package-per-file-(or so) technique is brilliant for this as well 21:56:30 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:58 *_3b* tends to not think about 'file' enough, so my code tends to be a bit ramdomly organized :( 21:57:39 drewc: Hey, one-package-per-file plus package-locks? 21:57:41 <_3b> (but then i'd rather not have files in teh first place anyway) 21:58:15 _3b: i have a hack where i'm storing walked source code (from cl-walker/arnesi) in rucksack. 21:58:42 _3b: no files... no text... structure editor 21:58:43 drewc: Then add a build system which creates a linear build order from the package dependencies... 21:58:45 like interliso 21:58:47 lisp 21:59:03 nyef: that assumes :use'ing packages though.. non? 21:59:15 True, it does. 21:59:16 *drewc* does a lot of package-qualified:symbols 21:59:19 *_3b* would get rid of the packages too :p 21:59:21 Ahh. 21:59:25 i avoid :use actually 21:59:32 *_3b* does as well 21:59:36 except for super-packages 21:59:53 <_3b> but it would be nice to have the editor adjust the package prefix display depending on context 21:59:56 I've been figuring to avoid qualified symbols and just :use the packages that have the symbols I need. 21:59:57 (ie packages that only serve to :use and :export symbols from related packages) 22:00:06 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:00:07 dia100daly [~sdiawara@212.99.78.121] has joined #lisp 22:00:20 fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 <_3b> then all symbols can be fully qualified in the editor without cluttering the UI 22:00:33 i like qualified symbols, because i like to :shadow, and :use doesn't like that kind of thing much 22:00:46 ie: i have wtf:read and wtf:print and wtf:* 22:00:52 Ah. 22:00:53 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:59 :use'ing :wtf and :cl would cause pain 22:01:03 jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-uioyrtorqhnclwth] has joined #lisp 22:01:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:01:18 _3b: That way lies using TeX math markup for symbol names, doesn't it? 22:01:21 i tried not even :use'ing :cl, but that got a little crazy 22:01:37 <_3b> nyef: that could probably fit too 22:01:54 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:59 <_3b> nyef: i was thinking short local nicknames for symbols could be fun, so that would be a special case of that 22:02:08 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:08 _3b: Did you see my screenshot from earlier? 22:02:20 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:02:39 <_3b> no, missed it (though saw you discussing tex symbols the other day) 22:02:48 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:02:52 http://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test.png 22:03:16 <_3b> looks like fun :) 22:03:21 I know how to make SBCL accept it, I'm just not sure how to make emacs do what I need. 22:03:53 nyef: how about hemlock? :P 22:04:10 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: A person slipping in malware is a rogue. A closed source vendor slipping in malware is a business plan.] 22:04:13 *drewc* is still trying to get qt hemlock and tty hemlock working, but the clx version almost works 22:04:25 drewc: Haven't tried hemlock in ages. Does it have anything like preview-latex? 22:04:53 nyef: no idea, but lichtblau has been improving it quite a bit as of late. 22:05:35 *drewc* has been meaning to try LiCE as well 22:05:50 which i heard has elisp capabilities 22:06:25 I think a CL emacs (with threads) could take over from gnu emacs if it could run 75% of existing elisp unmodified 22:06:26 The last time I managed to get lispbuilder-sdl working on ECL, it was quote a bit slower than anything else. 22:06:45 (and obviously suck less than emacs) 22:07:17 The threads bit is important, isn't it? 22:07:33 drewc: I've been dreaming of and wishing I had time to work on such a beast. 22:07:36 -!- entropi [~entropi@nat/intel/x-czxytfwpxkjwatlg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:08:02 entropax [~entropi@192.55.54.36] has joined #lisp 22:08:18 fatelang: if wishes we're fishes we'd all cast nets! live your dreams and reify your wishes! :D 22:09:43 -!- jeti [~jeti@p548EEBBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:10:14 i'm in a too good a mood today... of to read c.l.l 22:10:17 off* 22:10:46 moshisushi [~henry@h-121-175.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 22:10:48 brilliant, 78 new articles... that can only mean trolls and flames! 22:10:54 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:11:13 Flaming trolls. Yeah, troll crispies for dinner tonight. 22:11:34 Troll flambe? 22:11:45 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:49 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 22:11:51 matehat [~matehat@poste120-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has joined #lisp 22:12:09 "I could use the same condescending tone you use, but I won't." .... this is getting good already! 22:12:17 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:12:31 pot vs kettle, main event! 22:13:23 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:31 <_3b> "I'll use a completely dfifferent condescending tone instead" 22:14:04 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:14:31 drewc: Post a link to the thread. Don't keep it to yourself :) 22:14:51 I keep getting "DEFINITION-SOURCE of function XYZ did not contain meaningful information." in slime using sbcl. 22:15:10 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:16:07 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:38 ... A debian install image has debootstrap on it, doesn't it? 22:16:58 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:47 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:19 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:18:40 -!- dia100daly [~sdiawara@212.99.78.121] has left #lisp 22:19:42 oudeis [~oudeis@93-173-202-180.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:20:37 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:45 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:21:17 nyef: sometimes. 22:21:28 nyef: i think it's part of the base system. 22:21:38 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:01 Okay, I think I know how I'm going to get this thing installed. I have a wired usb ethernet adaptor that I know is supported by the debian netinst image, and I can have my winxp box mediate to the wireles via internet connection sharing... 22:22:21 *Fade* laughs 22:23:34 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:55 Hey, this is better than the time when I had two linux boxes and a NeXT cube, each of which required at least -one- of the others to be running before it would start up without complaint. 22:25:02 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@93-173-202-180.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:25:49 balooga1: 22:25:51 maden [~maden@dsl-153-44.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 22:26:01 (Actually, wait, was one of them a HURD system at that time?) 22:26:49 -!- brushie__ [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:55 brushie__ [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:25 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-69-190.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:27:25 nyef: I suspect Hurd, it was damaged like that :P 22:27:33 -!- erato [~user@081-003-214-196.yesss.at] has left #lisp 22:27:57 No, it was some recursive loop in the configuration. Like one of them was the nameserver, but the other held a critical NFS mount... 22:27:58 drewc: you're corrupting with your stories of living on a boat. I ended up looking at motorhomes :> 22:28:19 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:28:23 p_l: land yachts 22:28:31 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:48 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-79-56.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:57 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667826-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:59 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:28:59 Mobile programming offices. 22:29:02 drewc: unfortunately, boats are outside my abilities, but a truck-sized motorhome... after some changes... :D 22:29:09 p_l: a very sensible way to live IMO, even if you never move :) 22:29:45 probably better to buy and old diesel bus or cube van and start from there. 22:29:45 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:53 maybe cheaper, certainly more custom 22:30:27 drewc: If I had a sensible internet connection and a job that would pay for it, I think I'd go for it. Except I would need to check some stuff regarding addressing for gov. :D 22:30:46 http://aberdeen.gumtree.com/aberdeen/13/52585413.html <--- a nice example 22:31:02 p_l: if high speed mobile internet is not available where you live yet, it will be soon 22:31:18 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:31:20 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:31:21 otherwise, if you're rich, there are global satellite based options :) 22:31:41 I don't think I could live in the little airplane, but maybe in a nicer hangar at the airport... 22:31:45 drewc: the problem is more of getting a good contract. My last attempt failed with me not paying for stuff from my british account, so I fail all credit checks :D 22:32:07 me avoids debt, pays cash. 22:32:17 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:32:28 rme: or get CPL w/ IFR, Multiengine and get yourself a cargo plane :D 22:32:40 my my. I see it's international OT day, part deux =) 22:32:45 Imagine making a home out of C-130 :D 22:32:47 i don't even have a credit card, though apparently my credit is good as my cell phone company gave me a 600 limit. 22:33:08 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 22:33:12 drewc: I only use a debit card 22:33:18 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:44 ljosa [~ljosa@gmdbc-c50.broadinstitute.org] has joined #lisp 22:33:48 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:48 Shaftoe: regular contributers are permitted OT talk.. everybody is actually, but only in proportion to their non-OT talk... say 99-1 in favour of talking about lisp ;) 22:33:49 -!- ljosa [~ljosa@gmdbc-c50.broadinstitute.org] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:06 Comments/suggestions welcome: http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/blog/5-threads/article.html 22:34:08 Hey, how does showering/bathing work out in this sort of scenario? 22:34:09 ljosa [~ljosa@gmdbc-c50.broadinstitute.org] has joined #lisp 22:34:17 You also get more leeway for something cool, like living on a boat 22:34:23 milanj [~milan@93.87.101.35] has joined #lisp 22:34:26 nyef: my big boat has a shower. 22:34:32 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:38 nyef: the marina also has such services 22:34:39 Xach: released my game. perhaps you'd be interested in posting about the two CL contest entries? 22:34:56 nyef: and since i'm living at the dock right now, i have such services. shower/mail/laundry 22:34:59 *boggles* programmers discussing showering and bathing. 22:35:02 Xach: http://dto.github.com/notebook/xiotank.html and http://funcallgames.com/laserspigot/ 22:35:17 dto: nice :) 22:35:18 But what about for a land yacht? 22:35:27 hi fade :) 22:35:29 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667826-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 22:35:33 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:01 hmm... you could fit a shower into C-130... 22:36:01 dto: is your source closed? 22:36:10 Fade: GPL 22:36:11 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-35-216-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:11 v3 22:36:14 nyef: trucks stops, gymnasiums, swimming pools, community centres and/or trailer parks 22:36:23 or, a shower on board 22:36:44 Hrm... So, a bit of research, first. 22:36:47 Fade: the sound effects, music, and graphics are all Creative Commons -- Attribution - Noncommercial - Noderivs 22:36:48 'hong kong' style being the most obvious... sit on the head and bath with the wand. 22:36:58 awesome. I'll try to build later 22:37:06 i'm using a linux/ppc machine atm. 22:37:13 s/wand/showerhead i guess, and s/head/toilet 22:37:59 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:01 nyef: people got by for thousands of years without running water... it's not that hard to deal with. Same for refrigeration. 22:38:18 drewc: there are also sponge baths... 22:38:21 Land yachts have an advantage/disadvantage, in that you need to power them to move them 22:38:28 p_l: 'sailors baths' :) 22:38:30 Yeah, I know, but that doesn't mean we can't be out of practice. 22:38:40 nyef: very true. 22:38:41 Fade: cool ! 22:38:54 *p_l* also spent few months in conditions where he had to bathe in a small "tub" with water from electric kettle. 22:38:56 Fade: the page has all the deps info, click on the INSTALL guide portion 22:39:02 *nod* 22:39:04 nyef: it takes some getting used to, that's for sure.... but modern techology actually makes things really easy for us 22:39:26 I radically prefer living on a boat to in a house. 22:39:41 IMO, it's all win. 22:39:52 a solar oven becomes a solar freezer at night ... 22:40:05 you got your hot and your cold right there :) 22:40:50 I guess you've got good access to a large heat sink, too. 22:41:01 the sky 22:41:04 the last few cruising boats I was on had power systems, even away from dock that could support refrigeration and water heating indefinitely. 22:41:14 cremeria1 [~staff@91.80.201.230] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 biggest heat sink in the universe is the universe itself 22:41:31 Fade: yup, assuming sun/wind and/or fuel :) 22:41:34 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:34 aye 22:41:45 Water has better thermal conductivity than gaseous nitrogen, though, doesn't it? 22:41:56 twin wind turbines, and solar on the house roof. 22:42:16 nyef: right, but there is a _lot_ more of the latter 22:42:22 they didn't even bother with power rationing. 22:42:43 *p_l* wonders what permits would be necessary for nuclear reactor 22:43:12 nyef: basically, leave a solar oven of the reflector variety pointed towards an 'empty' patch of sky... you will see ten degress of temperature lost to space. 22:43:14 that would be an interesting "boat" :) 22:43:24 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d8277f.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:43:29 -!- cremeria1 [~staff@91.80.201.230] has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:42 p_l: nuclear submarines are quite common actually... fsvo common 22:44:02 for surface vessels, diesel is cheaper and more reliable for the most part. 22:44:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-242.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:44:48 small pebble bed breeders would be an excellent fit for a community sized reactor... nobody needs a personal sized reactor... that's just crazy talk! 22:45:07 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:19 solar panels + wind are more than enough unless you're doing something that requires a lot of power 22:45:47 heating is the gorrila in the room 22:46:10 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:46:22 drewc: there are some icebreakers that run on nuclear power 22:46:26 -!- benny [~benny@i577A70B0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:46:41 "No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned." --Sam: Johnson 22:46:46 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:46:56 p_l: true.. the requirement to get stuck in the ice for a few years and get away with it makes diesel a tough sell :) 22:47:01 with some extra stuff that isn't available on ships with "standard" powersource :) 22:47:13 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:30 like the chance of radiation poisoning :P 22:47:34 (like on-board radiation-based preserving of food) 22:47:34 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:47:44 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 good point! 22:48:08 drewc: personally, I'd rather chance being close to a reactor than live close to a coal powerplant ;-) 22:48:11 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:25 the former at least controls its radiation output. 22:48:32 i lived almost right next to a reactor for 13 years 22:48:49 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:48:54 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48:58 and my mother was a propagandist for the nuclear power industry :) 22:50:38 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 22:51:36 benny [~benny@i577A7677.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:56 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:54:26 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:55:50 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 22:57:57 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:58:17 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:58:40 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:59:28 Jarvellis [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 22:59:30 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:59:52 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Elench 23:00:02 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:00:07 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:00:12 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:00:47 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:01:44 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:54 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-153-245.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:02:23 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 23:02:55 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 23:04:14 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-249.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:18 -!- kajic [kajic@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04:25 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:04:34 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04:49 kajic [kajic@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 23:06:44 TR2N [email@89.180.153.245] has joined #lisp 23:06:49 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:54 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-124-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:13 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-124-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 23:07:41 -!- milanj [~milan@93.87.101.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:10:02 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:10:27 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 23:15:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has quit [Quit: Good night.] 23:16:04 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:18:00 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:18:16 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:19 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:18:29 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.29] has joined #lisp 23:18:33 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:14 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@xvm-22-22.ghst.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:20:19 Pepe_ [~ppjet@xvm-22-22.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:40 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? 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It has to be horrible 23:52:57 drewc: allow chaining from CLOS methods into C methods 23:53:09 *the border 23:53:23 mathrick: no, it doesn't, and none of this is specific enough to explain why you need to expand to this strange code 23:53:34 I don't know if I need to yet 23:53:43 ... 23:53:48 So... you're trying to obtain the ability to use CLOS to subclass C classes? 23:53:56 wait... 23:54:00 what is a C class? 23:54:08 *nyef* was waiting for that. 23:54:17 COS? 23:54:19 a GObject class, which is a C struct doing by hand what a built-in object system would do normally 23:54:29 oh, GObject. 23:54:46 Umm... If you're hacking to GObject, why not swipe one of the existing bindings? 23:54:56 nyef: I *am* hacking existing bindings 23:55:08 now, i've made gtk applications and never run into the case where i had a macro that needed to know if it was in a defmethod or not. 23:55:10 I just need them to do things that weren't needed before 23:55:22 so none of this explains what it is you are _actually_ trying to do 23:55:26 namely, I need to be able to implement GObject interfaces on CLOS objects 23:55:43 and by that i mean, show the code and an example use! 23:55:50 Ooh. Like my half-baked scheme for implementing COM interfaces in CLOS? 23:56:04 drewc: I'm wrapping GooCanvas. How you make new objects is subclass GooCanvasItemSimple and override methods 23:56:17 or make a completely new class and implement GooCanvasItem 23:56:29 that is usually how objects work, as i understand OO programming... 23:56:40 but what is it that you are actually trying to do? 23:57:02 drewc: but usual GTK+ programming doesn't need to have your CLOS methods visible on the GObject side. This does 23:57:04 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:21 Ooh. Like my half-baked scheme for implementing COM interfaces in CLOS? <-- very probable 23:57:42 where does this strange macro expansion come into this enlightening lecture on technologies i'm very familiar with? :) 23:58:01 I'd share the design, but it's sb-alien specific, and presently written down on a set of 3x5 cards which I rather suspect are in the blizzard on my desk somewhere. 23:58:56 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:57 nyef: I'm very interested in seeing it a bit later when I'm not in a rush. I have a couple of issues I haven't been able to solve yet that make it impossible to make it usefully transparent 23:59:03 (Okay, it probably isn't sb-alien specific, but it's certainly couched in sb-alien terms.) 23:59:11 several of them are related to the impossibility of casting in CLOS 23:59:19 mathrick: assume i know what GObject is, that ive written a lot of MOP code and C code and that i'm familiar with macros, the problem of subclassing foriegn objects, etc. 23:59:26 what is it you are actually trying to do? :) 23:59:36 (cast = change-class?) 23:59:43 no, that's change class 23:59:52 I want to say "pretend it's actually X and not Y for now"