00:00:58 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-54-4.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:01:29 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:02:08 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:02:19 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 00:04:21 -!- nus [nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 00:05:32 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:14 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:14 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:14 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 00:12:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:12:56 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-128-47.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:17 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:58 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:19 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-12-51.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:16:51 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-55-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:53 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 00:20:33 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:21:16 marcelinollano [~marcelino@254.Red-79-155-25.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:29 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:27:58 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:24 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 00:29:13 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.8.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:30:51 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:34:09 bigjust2 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:02 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:39:07 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 00:40:04 -!- marcelinollano [~marcelino@254.Red-79-155-25.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:29 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 00:45:08 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BFE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:45:59 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:47:05 -!- benny` is now known as benny 00:49:27 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 00:50:56 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 00:51:02 Fare: ping 00:54:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:55:14 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-98.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:55:20 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:47 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:07 pong 00:59:29 Fare: http://gitorious.org/iolib/local-execution-daemon/ 00:59:35 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:59:39 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:07 Fare: it's incomplete, but I count on having a working synchronous version by tomorrow 01:00:18 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00:28 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:07 What are the use cases, already? 01:02:15 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:47 Fare: ATM only the printer/reader is implemented. it doesn't do anything :) 01:05:01 if it's not to execute Lisp code, what is that demon for, already? why not just use rshd ? 01:05:47 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:05:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:17 Fare: a portable run-program 01:07:41 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:08:56 how will you handle sigchld/blah? The daemon will send you stuff? 01:09:10 why not "just" implement signalfd / foo in iolib? 01:09:29 (or emulate it with a handler when not available) 01:10:58 exit 01:11:01 -!- bigjust2 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:12:02 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:13:48 -!- gigamonk` [~gigamonke@adsl-99-62-75-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:14:08 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:15:43 Fare: doing it inside the CL isn't guaranteed to work 01:16:55 -!- borism [~boris@213-35-233-202-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [K-Lined] 01:17:31 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:38 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 01:19:18 Under what circumstances would it fail? 01:22:37 LaKraven [~LaKraven@dsl78-143-197-210.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:22:57 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.75] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 01:23:39 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:24:55 why would it fail? 01:25:08 I mean, why would it fail more than using sockets to talk to a server? 01:25:26 (and how do you spawn the server, to begin with? ain't that a chicken-and-egg problem?) 01:26:03 Fare - how do you "spawn" a server exactly? 01:26:25 I mean... the entire premise of a "Client-Server" behavior is that the server must already be accessible from its client(s) 01:26:48 nyef: clisp does the equivalent of a (with-sigchld-handler (fork) (exec) ...) 01:27:30 fe[nl]ix, I'm sure the clisp maintainers will accept a patch 01:27:40 or you can redefine the functions that do that 01:28:13 I have no intention to touch Clisp or redefine its internals in any way 01:31:02 So... make it work elsewhere, and file a bug against clisp? 01:32:06 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:32:10 Fare: the user will have to add it to inittab or something similar 01:35:27 nyef: I don't think there's a way to guarantee that my run-program won't interfere with the host's 01:41:45 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:06 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:43:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:44:37 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:45:25 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 01:46:53 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:47:24 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:53:52 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:25 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:51 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:59:08 sykopomp: Yes, PLT. (Sorry, I've been out.) 01:59:16 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 02:00:16 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:01:04 Well, my new computer is almost usable, after spending two days configuring it. Now I just need to figure out how to get my data back, or at least enough of it that I can resume hacking on stuff. 02:01:56 myef: Linux or Windows? 02:03:44 Linux, of course. 02:04:17 Were I willing to put up with 32-bit windows 7 starter, I could have been worrying about getting my data back two days ago. 02:04:54 nyef: If you wanted Windows why not just get Windows 7 x64? 02:05:09 then again far-be-it from me to advocate Windows over Linux 02:05:17 personally I wish everyone would switch permenantly to Linux 02:05:21 would make my work easier 02:06:58 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:04 The 32-bit version came with the computer. And I -don't- want windows for this one. 02:08:05 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:08:11 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:08:31 (Windows works quite sufficiently well under virtualization, thank you.) 02:08:58 :) 02:10:22 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:32 also, win7 starter is abomination 02:13:56 (unless you somehow crack the limits) 02:14:31 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:36 good thing that there's only one or two install images per architecture for win7 - means you can always "modify" to the version you want ;-) 02:15:11 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:13 The version I'd consider wanting is 64-bit. 02:15:26 jao [~jao@83.42.211.105] has joined #lisp 02:15:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.108.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:15:52 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16:05 yeah. Works nice 02:16:07 billstclair [~billstcla@dcha-aa1697.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dcha-aa1697.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:16:07 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:16:26 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 02:16:48 and considering that the only real bug I encountered in 64bit windows has been patched by the time of W7, it's not a problematic one :) 02:20:30 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:23:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 02:23:45 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:32:55 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:33:37 -!- konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:34:25 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:43 http://filebin.ca/auwwa/xiotank12.ogv <----- narrative overview of my lisp 7DRL 02:36:58 dto: what did you think of hefner's? 02:37:19 what did he do? i hadn't talked to him. 02:37:22 link me :) 02:37:32 http://funcallgames.com/laserspigot/ 02:37:39 *Xach* hasn't tried it, has no windows 7 02:37:40 can you link to us when the contest is over? 02:38:03 sure 02:38:08 hey that looks pretty cool! 02:38:19 Xach: this latest video is showing the design coming together 02:41:51 hah, cool ogv 02:42:00 a little hard to see which is the player at first 02:43:06 i'm using tiny sound particles triggered many times with a lot of random jitter 02:43:24 it's sort of a granular synth game 02:44:23 ooo i just got another gameplay idea and jotted it down :) 02:45:52 dto: Make me an Elite clone with multiplayer, and you'll be my new hero. 02:46:04 marioxcc [~user@201.132.135.175] has joined #lisp 02:46:15 Madsy: An Elite multiplayer roguelike? 02:46:16 hi mad :) 02:46:20 *Xach* has many ideas, lacks gumption this evening 02:46:26 And EVE doesn't count, and Infinity is vaporware. 02:47:12 Madsy: I don't suppose that vendetta online counts, then 02:47:35 I've heard great things about it, but I haven't tried it yet. 02:49:50 The X series and the Wing Commander series are close in my heart. I'm a hardcore fan of X3 : Reunion, but it's only single-player. 02:50:19 And it eats my two cores for breakfast. That's a nice feat for a game from 2005. 02:52:35 my game is becoming really cpu intensive. 02:52:41 i need to optimize and profile some more 02:52:47 especially the 2d array stuff 02:54:31 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:56:33 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-193-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:00 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:33 my brain is fuzzy 03:04:42 ikki [~ikki@189.139.94.224] has joined #lisp 03:04:45 Hrm... Not -quite- working. Sound recording doesn't work, and NetworkManager doesn't see any of the network interfaces. :-/ 03:05:17 Harag [~Harag@41.56.28.101] has joined #lisp 03:10:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:11:23 adeht: map-into's two-arg behavior doesn't seem clearly described in the prose of the "description" part of the spec, though the "notes" make it clear 03:12:19 adeht: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3133702798486404@naggum.no.html made me revisit it... 03:14:24 I don't know why you think it's not clearly described. 03:16:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:16:07 hmm, I guess I didn't clearly read the second sentence of the second paragraph. 03:17:36 I also don't know why EN thought it doesn't work. 03:17:54 maybe ACL (which he supposedly used) had (has?) a bug? 03:18:31 Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:13 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:18 jsoft_ [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:19:46 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:19:46 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:19:46 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 316 seconds] 03:20:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.118.222] has joined #lisp 03:20:11 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: saikat] 03:20:52 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 03:21:10 "If result-sequence and each element of sequences are not all the same length, the iteration terminates when the shortest sequence (of any of the sequences or the result-sequence) is exhausted." That snippet can be confusing. 03:23:11 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/session] has joined #lisp 03:23:17 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/session] has quit [Changing host] 03:23:17 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-ajxncurapvctntxe] has joined #lisp 03:24:17 how can I see what the symbol is that the system stores for some thing like (defgeneric (setf text) (value text)) so that I can use symbol-function to retrieve it again later 03:25:04 Xach: although the example was *not* right for the task being discussed. I'll blame a thinko on naggum's part here. 03:26:11 any statement can be confusing to someone.. this one seems to say that (setq termination-count (let ((lengths (mapcar #'length (list* result-sequence sequences)))) (if (not (apply #'= lengths)) (reduce #'min lengths) ))) 03:26:31 <_3b> clhs fdefinition 03:26:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 03:28:39 adeht: right, that's what the parenthesised section clarifies. 03:29:16 -!- LaKraven [~LaKraven@dsl78-143-197-210.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has left #lisp 03:30:25 _3b: but what it the function name of a setf method... thats the bit i dont know 03:30:40 <_3b> Harag: (setf foo) is the name 03:31:12 ok let me try that thanx 03:31:48 konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 03:31:50 <_rata_> hello 03:33:55 pkhuong: what do you mean about the example being not right? 03:35:03 I'd think he would propose (map-into (copy-list existing-list) #'gensym) if he thought it should work 03:35:09 adeht: the thread discusses the best way to write (loop for nil in list collect (gensym)). 03:35:26 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 03:35:28 adeht: right, so I don't know what the point of that post is. 03:36:30 in the context of Pitman's more general complaint the post makes sense 03:36:41 (he quoted the example from the standard) 03:37:30 (loop for i below (length list) collect gensym), for increased locality? 03:37:53 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:59 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:47 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:38:59 nyef: noise compared to gensym. 03:39:00 I usually just use (loop for x in list collect (gensym)) 03:39:02 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 03:40:17 Okay, yes, the gensym would have absolutely shitty locality, but that's not the point! 03:40:44 -!- Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 03:41:11 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:11 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:52 adeht: the general complaint being that GENSYM1 doesn't exist? 03:42:38 pkhuong: it seems to me that Pitman wanted "functional" and w/o "ignore" 03:43:00 (and w/o the lambda) 03:43:14 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:44:07 So, what's the "good idea" that doesn't work? 03:45:18 pkhuong: the good idea was map-into without input sequences, that behaves the way the standard says it should 03:45:49 what doesn't work? I don't know. I conjectured ACL may had (has?) a bug 03:46:04 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 03:46:38 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 03:47:41 if you check the thread you see Barry Margolin asking the same question 03:49:35 also from that thread: "But somehow the built-in map-into in Allegro 5 returns the original list unchanged. Seems Allegro's map-into misbehaves when the function is not followed by at least one argument sequence. Is this a bug in Allegro? Does it work in other implementations?" 03:49:38 man (map-into (copy-list ...) #'gensym), seriously? :\ 03:50:10 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:50:42 pkhuong: I don't like it for that specific task 03:50:49 but it's quite useful 03:51:19 Just write a higher-order function, once. 03:51:43 or a REPEATEDLY macro :) 03:51:54 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:51:59 (mapcar (repeatedly (gensym)) list) 03:53:43 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:04 _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:51 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:13 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:09:35 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:10:37 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 04:11:09 -!- prxq [~mommer@g230133017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:11:37 prxq [~mommer@f051046095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:12:07 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:15:48 cmecca [~cmecca@unaffiliated/flip] has joined #lisp 04:17:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:18:06 Good morning 04:18:51 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-76-231.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:18:57 hihi 04:20:40 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:00 beach: Good morning, and good night. 04:21:04 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:21:08 hey guys, is 'weblocks' off topic in here? 04:22:29 Not if it is written in Lisp. 04:22:39 cmecca: #weblocks specializes in it 04:22:41 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-208-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:48 beach: it is 04:23:00 written in lisp 04:23:00 Harag: thanks there was only 2 other people in it :P 04:23:26 lol cmecca ask away i might be able to help 04:23:47 had a short stint in weblocks 04:23:53 honestly i was just 'exploring' using lisp for some web based stuff i have coming up... and i was wondering if there was any good 'frameworks' in exsistance 04:23:59 i found weblocks on google 04:24:15 but now im finding some others (leftparen, uncommon) reading about them right now 04:24:18 wondering how they all compare 04:24:58 good morning 04:25:04 hey madnificent 04:25:06 -!- algokick [~algokick@100.133.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:25:59 cmecca: there is ##lispweb too 04:26:00 cmecca: I don't know what counts as a "framework" but some people recommend Hunchentoot wich is what I am using myself right now. 04:26:20 ah thanks hadnt heard of that one ill try and track it down :) 04:26:23 madnificent: thanks man ill check it out 04:26:37 cmecca: most of us just use hunchentoot with cl-who 04:26:42 -!- lpolzer [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:26:43 cmecca: it doesn't have many users either, but it's there 04:27:16 hunchentoot = webserver and cl-who = (sexp html) 04:27:47 ah i see. 04:28:08 the f. zap icon in the bookmark already sold me :P 04:28:12 weblocks is built on hunchentoot 04:29:10 well im off to bed for now... thanks for all the direction 04:29:16 ill idle a bit and jump back on it tommorrow 04:29:18 good night 04:34:14 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.205.189] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 04:35:17 -!- cmecca [~cmecca@unaffiliated/flip] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:36:33 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:41 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:51 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:29 beach: morning 04:44:03 Hey p_l. What's up 04:44:07 s//?/ 04:52:52 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:04:18 *Fare* is looking for a speaker for March 29th or so at the Boston Lisp Meeting 05:08:24 beach: quite long but workable TODO for a replacement for asdf-install (and possibly clbuild), based on lispy but geared more towards what Cabal and RubyGems are like 05:08:53 there was quite a brainstorm last... night? I think it was circa 24h ago 05:10:29 sebajara [~475c6612@gateway/web/freenode/x-ruxfxzvzgzwqplha] has joined #lisp 05:11:08 -!- sebajara [~475c6612@gateway/web/freenode/x-ruxfxzvzgzwqplha] has quit [Client Quit] 05:11:25 (loop :repeat (length list) :collect (gensym)) 05:12:21 sebajara [~sebajara@71.92.102.18] has joined #lisp 05:17:55 yes Fare, the repeat is nicer than for in this case 05:21:46 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:27:45 Xeracy [~Xeracy@host-206-251-66-1.static.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 05:28:28 i need help with a very simple lisp routine for AutoCAD, if anyone has a moment. 05:30:10 am i just in the wrong place, then? 05:31:00 Xeracy: this channel is primarily for Common Lisp 05:31:00 Xeracy: this is a common lisp channel :) Chances are that noone knows AutoCAD's lisp here 05:31:07 ok, thanks 05:33:50 -!- sebajara [~sebajara@71.92.102.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:34:31 well if anyone is willing to look at less than a dozen lines of code for syntax or glaring mistakes, i would appreciate it... 05:40:07 Is there an emacs mode for sb-sprof, or something along those lines? 05:40:15 any SLIME support I'm missing? 05:40:59 -!- Xeracy [~Xeracy@host-206-251-66-1.static.linkline.com] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 06:00:46 -!- konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:00:46 <_3b> M-x slime-sprof-start, slime-sprof-stop, slime-sprof-browser 06:02:01 <_rata_> I wonder if there's something similar to the graph output generated by google-perftools for sb-sprof 06:02:29 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-36-84.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:05:07 <_rata_> _3b: do you know if there is anything like that? 06:05:44 *_3b* doesn't know of any 06:08:35 <_rata_> ok, thanks :) 06:09:15 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:10:54 *_rata_* wonders if he would be able to code such thing 06:12:59 if you're talking about the sort of thing I think you are 06:13:01 that would be awesome 06:13:27 *Ralith* wants something like the KDE tools for valgrind with nice graphical trees of functions 06:14:21 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:16:06 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 06:19:26 <_rata_> Ralith: I haven't used the KDE tools for Valgrind... what graphical trees of functions does it show? 06:19:55 who knows 06:20:08 but what I am thinking of is a call tree sorted by time consumption 06:20:44 Ralith: hey, i have a common lisp program you can try profiling, if you are interested :) in seeing how it does on your machine 06:21:39 heh 06:21:47 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:12 dto: I'm only just barely able to use sb-sprof; I wouldn't rely on me for useful data just yet. 06:23:39 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: work] 06:24:37 <_3b> slime stuff works well enough for me, though possibly a few more keybindings would be nice 06:26:25 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:33 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-98.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:35 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:36:12 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:38:42 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:51:21 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:56 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:00:28 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:42 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:59 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:50 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:17:18 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.128.198] has left #lisp 07:18:39 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:47 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:20:09 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:23:46 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:40 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:34:46 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:35:10 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:10 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:35:10 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 07:36:06 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:37:39 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.135.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:12 mega1 [~quassel@3e70cdbe.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:41:01 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:43:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:44:03 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:45:36 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:46:28 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has joined #lisp 07:52:45 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 08:02:00 Axius [~hi@92.82.68.10] has joined #lisp 08:02:11 Anyone know what exactly sb-kernel:%single-float does? 08:02:13 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:02:35 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.68.10] has quit [Client Quit] 08:04:03 coerces something to single-float, apparently 08:04:51 that's what I thought. 08:05:10 but I'm apparently spending time calling it in functions that are only passed data as single-float :/ 08:06:54 maybe your computation involves non-single-floats such as integers 08:08:29 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:09:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:09:28 Ralith: trace them? 08:13:22 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:15:01 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-98.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:16:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:16:39 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:32 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 antoni [~user@83.33.105.22] has joined #lisp 08:20:40 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:25:04 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:25:52 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.137] has joined #lisp 08:27:14 Ralith, maybe sb-sprof's call graph can help? 08:32:02 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e70cdbe.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:32:39 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:29 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.12.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:35:46 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.12.82] has joined #lisp 08:43:17 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:44:35 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:45:00 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:45:23 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757a35.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:48 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:49 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:46:49 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 08:47:03 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:50:19 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:50:19 -!- antoni [~user@83.33.105.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:52:12 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:56:18 Harag pasted "What would cause this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96365 08:57:11 fiveop [~fiveop@e179160048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:14 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: kwertii] 08:59:09 Harag: It looks to me like the arguments are in the wrong order. 09:00:24 but beach how can (setf (slot-value text 'value) value) be in the wrong order? 09:00:26 Harag: As if the variable text contained the string "ttttttssss" and not the HT-WFX::TEXT object. 09:02:05 and it is definately that line of code that causes the error i have breaks before and after it 09:03:22 what is even worse is that if I simplify the code to test I dont get an error 09:05:02 so i need some clue as to the "why" ... so i can expand the test case to repeat the behaviour 09:05:29 Adlai: how do I get that again? 09:06:06 p_l: it's being passed arrays of sb-cga:vec (which are arrays of 3 single-floats) and lists of integer indexes. 09:06:17 antoni [~user@83.33.105.22] has joined #lisp 09:07:37 p_l: integer indices should never need to be float-ified, and everything else is already a float, so I don't really get it :/ 09:08:51 Ralith: You're using SBCL, have you tried reading compiler notes generated during compilation of the offending code? 09:08:52 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-ajxncurapvctntxe] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:10:22 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:10:31 Maybe it has problems regarding type inference at some point and runs sb-kernel:%single-float to ensure proper types? 09:11:35 (the notes should show up when compiling with (speed 3)) 09:11:52 'Upgraded element type of array is not known at compile time.' 09:11:55 Axius [~hi@92.82.68.10] has joined #lisp 09:12:13 *Ralith* adds :type 09:13:35 knew it was something like that :) 09:13:37 (simple-array foo (*)) means "array of unknown length of foo" right? 09:13:43 SBCL's compiler notes are very useful 09:14:00 *Ralith* had been looking at them but didn't expect it to trigger calls like that 09:14:38 Ralith: type inference notes show up only when you switch on optimization 09:14:54 ...yes 09:14:58 I was looking at them before 09:15:16 but I wasn't expecting them indicate the presence of calls like %single-float 09:15:42 *p_l* ended with several type declarations, including THE in few places, last time he played with those 09:15:50 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:16:39 p_l: hm, I have (defclass model () ((normals ... :type (simple-array vec (*))))) 09:16:58 and then I call this function with the return value of (normals some-model) 09:17:02 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.68.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:17:05 and it's still unknown 09:18:28 shouldn't that be easy inference? 09:18:44 Ralith: I recall something about :type declarations in CLOS not helping much, but I'm not sure - it was something related to inheritance that blocked good support for type inference 09:19:23 something about "it would work properly if you could seal the class" or something like that 09:19:32 :/ 09:19:56 so I'll need explicit declarations for the arguments? 09:20:01 Your best bet is to put declarations in the code that manipulates it 09:20:28 anywhere I can read up on declarations? 09:20:31 haven't had need for them before 09:21:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.118.222] has left #lisp 09:21:39 clhs declare 09:21:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 09:21:44 clhs the 09:21:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm 09:22:19 oh, forgot that the spec *does* make recommendations. 09:22:23 thanks 09:23:18 np 09:24:18 (simple-array foo (*)) means "array of unknown length of foo" right? 09:24:24 afaik yes 09:25:05 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-128.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 09:25:18 that is, an explicitly one-dimensional array 09:25:29 woah 09:25:34 those declarations helped a lot :D 09:26:17 Ralith: just remember that in SBCL, IIRC unless running at (speed 3) declarations end up as assertions 09:26:35 -!- pjb [~t@214.Red-88-30-99.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:27:00 yes 09:27:01 at ((speed 3) (safety 0)) it should work as advertised :) 09:27:05 that's a good thing 09:27:07 (imo) 09:27:18 what about just (speed 3)? 09:27:27 Ralith: don't remember specifics 09:27:42 kk 09:28:56 Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.131.104] has joined #lisp 09:29:45 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:10 frontiers [~jackb@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:14 slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1D30F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:19 and it looks like struct :types infer quite nicely. 09:31:21 slash_1 [~unknown@p5DD1D30F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:48 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 hoy 09:32:34 a quick primer, in sbcl make-ea, what is the difference between :disp and :index, and which can take a negative value? 09:32:45 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p5DD1D30F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:33:40 Ralith: I guess it's related to things that aren't covered for structs but exist in CLOS 09:33:52 lichtblau: aroundp 09:37:09 yep 09:37:12 also: 09:37:39 The value #(#C(...) ...) is not o ftype (SIMPLE-ARRAY (COMPLEX SINGLE-FLOAT) (*)). 09:37:40 what. 09:37:46 that is not true! 09:37:47 >:| 09:38:16 ahah. 09:38:22 typo isolated. 09:38:38 weird that it got the actual value right despite said typo. 09:38:41 yay for type assertions! 09:40:28 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #lisp 09:40:48 nikodemus: hyv"a"a huomenta 09:42:52 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:42:56 !! 09:43:16 samoin sinulle :) 09:43:24 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:26 do you have a minute to talk about hemlock? 09:44:35 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 I might be distracted by breakfast briefly, but I always welcome hemlock talk. 09:46:01 question the first: to what degree should i push things onto a branch in my clone for you to review & pull, and to what degree should i push directly to the master repo? 09:47:30 Ralith, (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:report :graph ) (your-code-here)) 09:47:38 (maybe: "obvious" fixes directly to master, anything more interesting for review first?) 09:47:44 ah, Lgraph 09:47:45 er 09:47:46 :graph 09:48:42 Ralith, p_l, declarations are only treated as assertions when the compiler can't verify them 09:48:50 the Hemlock article @ wikipedia is marked as a "unix-related article" 09:49:02 and yeah, Ralith, structs are much friendlier to SBCL's type inference 09:49:04 Adlai: as in, when the compiler couldn't have derived the type on its own? 09:49:18 Adlai: how so? 09:49:43 prxq: the compiler cannot reason about clos instance slot types 09:49:50 i see 09:50:08 but it can do so for struct slot types. Hm... 09:50:18 Ralith, right. if you declare FTYPE of a function, with its arguments, and the compiler can prove the argument types at a call site, then there won't be assertions (although there may be boxing and unboxing of floats) 09:50:31 nikodemus: that sounds like a good rule. 09:50:39 Adlai: so what exactly does (LAMBDA (SB-PCL::.ARG0. SB-PCL::.ARG1.)) refer to? 09:50:45 I'm guessing something CLOSy? 09:50:56 yes. also, we can store unboxed values inside structs if the slot type is approptiate. (unsigned word, single or double float, etc) 09:51:17 Ralith, yeah, I don't know PCL internals well enough to say where exactly that's from, but I'm guessing it's some part of method dispatch 09:51:33 okay, I should have known better than to put several generic functions in a tight loop. 09:51:48 shame. 09:51:52 it made for nice syntax. 09:51:56 I wrote a couple of emails months ago about the commits that i already merged and those that I haven't yet. Admittedly I haven't done much myself yet since then. 09:52:19 i was just replying to that email when i decided to see if you're here first :) 09:52:26 incidentally, is there any technical reason other why SBCL doesn't have Haskell-level type inference? 09:52:35 or is it just "nobody has gotten around to it yet" 09:52:44 last I checked, it's SBCL, not SBHC :) 09:52:45 ok. question the second: mailing list & tracker or some sort would be nice. i'm cool with taking over phemlock-devel@common-lisp.net. how do you feel about lauchpad? 09:53:10 One thing to keep in mind when pushing and branching is that fe[nl]ix is working on detabifying all branches. 09:53:21 oh, nice! 09:53:34 Let's take phemlock-devel over. 09:53:44 Adlai: you know what I mean :P 09:54:14 Ralith, actually, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "haskell-level type inference" 09:54:28 Adlai: I mean "can reliably deduce the type of (almost) everything" 09:54:40 Hindley-Milner? 09:54:45 yes 09:54:50 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-178-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:54:51 though I hear haskell has gone a bit beyond that lately 09:54:59 but that's tangental. 09:55:10 *nikodemus* goes and subcribes 09:55:23 Ralith: Some places make it hard to infer the types, CLOS being one of them, afaik 09:55:59 yes, but iirc SBCL's far more limited than just there. 09:56:19 Slom [~a@pD9EB733F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:26 Ralith: iirc, the type system itself does have to satisfy certain properties for HM-style type inference to make sense 09:56:28 and even thenis it impossible to infer CLOS, or just nontrivial? 09:56:32 as someone pointed out, sealed classes would allow some level of inference in CLOS. Another problem I guess is the possibility of constant redefinition of code... 09:56:36 cl's doesn't 09:56:45 prxq: well, you'd have to make some constraints. 09:56:51 Ralith, I think LispWorks's delivery compiler does inline some CLOS methods 09:56:53 but your average type isn't a satisfies. 09:56:59 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:57:00 Ralith: you need to break the spec, afaik 09:57:05 p_l: oh, damn. 09:57:11 Ralith: i think it is deeper than that 09:57:22 huh, was already subscribed 09:57:32 it seems like you should be able to do a pretty major subset, though. 09:57:41 Ralith: LW breaks the spec when delivering the image with certain options enabled (and only with those options) 09:57:45 Ralith: there's Qi. 09:58:11 CLOS is about classes rather than types. 09:58:44 And things like change-class make that difficult to reconcile with type inference. 09:59:01 -!- antoni [~user@83.33.105.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:25 Ralith, see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/DV/html/delivery-71.htm#pgfId-91416 for what I think is the current state-of-the-art in delivering CLOS apps 09:59:32 antoni [~user@83.33.105.22] has joined #lisp 09:59:36 lichtblau: what about launchpad? 10:00:12 Zhivago: is it totally infeasible to just recalculate type inference when such calls are made? 10:00:19 considering how sporadic my hemlock hacking is going to be, i at least would benefit from a tracker 10:00:44 Well, it depends on what problems you are trying to sol e with type inference. 10:00:58 I'm not familiar with launchpad, but I welcome the opportunity to get to know it. 10:01:14 ok, i'll set it up 10:01:34 Zhivago: the performance of code which doesn't require recalculation of the inference seems like a good candidate. 10:01:49 Then why do you care about type inference? 10:01:55 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:02:05 Why not just trace like everyone else, these days? 10:02:12 'just trace'? 10:02:14 I don't follow 10:02:17 Ralith, bear in mind the priorities of PCL 10:02:25 Adlai: elaborate? 10:02:33 http://www2.parc.com/csl/groups/sda/publications/papers/Kiczales-Andreas-PCL/for-web.pdf 10:02:41 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3851 10:02:48 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 lichtblau: hm, i think maybe we should ping the cmucl folks before i co-opt the name "Hemlock" on launchpad... 10:03:24 Harag annotated #96365 "What I am trying to do" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96365#1 10:03:28 Just call it "belladona" :) 10:03:31 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 10:03:34 oooh! 10:03:36 ohhh! 10:03:38 ah! 10:04:02 lichtblau: what's in a name? :) 10:04:04 Zhivago: a static-ish (i.e. only recalculated when available data changes) solution strikes me as somewhat more elegant. 10:04:11 -!- antoni [~user@83.33.105.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:13 but I suppose tracing would be a nice feature to have too! 10:04:14 Ralith: Provide reasoning. 10:04:35 Ralith: Besides which, tracing only recaculates with things change as well. 10:04:52 Ralith: Anyhow, I'd sit down and think carefully about the actual problem that you're trying to solve. 10:04:53 Harag annotated #96365 "Add Hunchentoot to the mix and I get an error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96365#2 10:04:55 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 10:05:33 well I can now reproduce the error but I still cant see why 10:05:36 Zhivago: I'd rather sit down and familiarize myself with tracing, because it's starting to sound like more or less the Right Thing. 10:05:39 Ralith, read that paper (or at least the introduction), as it provides some perspectives on PCL's performance profile 10:05:54 ralith: Fair enough -- good luck. 10:06:21 I presume there's no particular reason why *it* couldn't be applied to CL or something CL-ish? 10:06:32 specifically, "PCL is designed to support development, not delivery of CLOS programs." 10:06:50 Ralith: No. 10:07:12 Adlai: I was just about to quote that sentence and "I see." 10:07:22 that makes sense, then. 10:07:26 Zhivago: cool. 10:07:47 Pretty much any technique that applies to javascript will apply to CL :) 10:08:20 duly noted! 10:08:46 and faster CL helps us all 10:08:55 :-) 10:09:00 I suppose nobody's actually played with implementing anything like this yet, though. 10:09:48 Adlai: I think LW kinda sets the standard for delivery :D 10:11:41 p_l, yeah, that's the impression I get. I haven't heard much about Franz's delivery capabilities (but a lot about their database...), and Scieneer seems to be aimed more at computing rather than delivering slick gooey GUIs 10:12:17 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1D30F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:12:22 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:30 Adlai: SCL afaik doesn't do delivery except for standard save-lisp-and-die mechanism 10:12:46 I'm not sure it even has CMUCL's SAVE-LISP. 10:12:58 since their target customers don't care about "making small executables" :) 10:13:33 ah, it does have SAVE-LISP [function] 10:14:00 some of the parts from LW delivery system could be ported into portable CL, I think. I do remember that some of the functions were discussed here in context of SBCL at least (not tree shaker) 10:14:01 http://www.scieneer.com/scl/doc/function/ext/save-lisp.html 10:14:54 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-022-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:24 -!- Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.131.104] has quit [Quit: Constantinegggfg] 10:15:48 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 10:15:51 I did consider a mechanism that removed all macros, EVAL and COMPILE related code (with possible exception of PCL, I guess) 10:16:04 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:09 nikodemus: suppose I would be about to upload an sbcl binary tarball to sourceforge. how should I sign it? Using a special sourceforge key? 10:17:04 p_l, PCL can theoretically run with an assembler, but no full compiler 10:17:25 Adlai: I know. 10:18:19 would be interesting if instead of full assembler, you could generate "assembler templates", functions that would return a block of code based on parameters + precompiled code. 10:18:33 Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.131.104] has joined #lisp 10:18:54 where does one register with the nickserver? 10:19:04 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:13 thom_logn: with nickserver. /msg nickserv help 10:19:58 thanks 10:19:58 i wonder if it would be worth the effort of making a back end for the llvm. 10:20:02 prxq: your own gpg key 10:20:35 nikodemus: ok. I was about to use my old cl.net dev key. 10:21:01 if it's a gpg key that is associated with you, that's fine 10:21:39 ok 10:22:18 p_l, have you looked at PCL LAP? 10:22:24 prxq: I did some research into that, my only issue was with incremental compilation 10:22:27 Adlai: not yet 10:23:05 p_l: what was the issue? 10:23:10 Adlai: you realize you're talking about an ancient PCL that has very little to do with the way it's been maintained the past two decades? 10:23:23 p_l: and how about the GC? 10:24:11 prxq: There are two code generators in LLVM, a JIT one and standalone one. the JIT one supports less architectures. GC is covered in LLVM through hooks provided for compiler to place apriopriate calls 10:24:34 the standalone one goes through external assembler iirc. 10:24:36 kejsaren [~kejsaren@80.216.63.207] has joined #lisp 10:26:17 GHC hackers probably did some patches that would also help with CL, which include stuff like placement of extra data near generated routines etc. 10:26:35 p_l: ...so it is not trivial to compile a function into a running image? 10:26:48 prxq: depends how you link the image 10:27:14 nikodemus: I feel good stealing the Hemlock name from CMUCL. 10:27:44 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:27:47 prxq: if you implement a linker and compile into a file then load the code from it, it's alright with the standalone generator. Otherwise you need to go with JIT one 10:28:18 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.94.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:28:22 nikodemus, yeah, that's why I mentioned "theoretically" 10:28:48 lichtblau: ok :) 10:28:49 Hemlock in cmucl is pretty much dead as far as I can tell.. 10:28:58 prxq: the thing is that the JIT generator at the moment covers probably all platforms where SBCL and CCL are currently *really* used. 10:29:21 (x86, x86-64, ppc32 and ppc64) 10:31:03 the default code generator, otoh, supports much more: X86, X86-64, PowerPC, PowerPC-64, ARM, Thumb, SPARC, Alpha, CellSPU, PIC16 MIPS, MSP430, SystemZ, and XCore. 10:31:30 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:31:35 oh, and there's another backend that generates C code 10:32:47 prxq: http://llvm.org/docs/GarbageCollection.html <--- and here's LLVM support for GC 10:33:33 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:34:46 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:35:18 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:37:34 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:39 lichtblau: https://launchpad.net/hemlock 10:38:59 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:40:13 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:14 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:44:37 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:51 freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.68.52] has joined #lisp 10:46:10 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.68.52] has left #lisp 10:46:41 freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.68.52] has joined #lisp 10:48:09 xinming_ [~hyy@125.109.74.6] has joined #lisp 10:49:39 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:50:55 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:51:22 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.143.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:38 -!- coyo is now known as SleepingYote 11:01:17 Harag annotated #96365 "Extra parameters?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96365#3 11:02:21 -!- Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.131.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:27 nikodemus: I think something like "works with SBCL (main development target), Clozure CL, and CLISP" would be a fair thing to say on the page. 11:02:40 p_l: pardon my denseness, but where is the problem, then? 11:02:49 "in increasing order of slowness", but I think we can leave out that footnote. :-) 11:03:10 lichtblau: ok 11:03:15 having one port (the jit one, f.e.) covering all those backends would be a good thing, no? 11:03:20 More to the point perhaps, "aims to be portable across all Common Lisp implementations, with the focus being..." or something like that. 11:03:29 Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.129.148] has joined #lisp 11:03:42 prxq: It depends on what implementation you are trying to put LLVM into 11:04:12 ok so now it looks like the accessor is getting more parameters than it needs...but how/why? 11:04:16 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 11:04:23 prxq: Personally, I wanted ELF-format FASLs and linked in Clang for FFI :-) 11:04:27 nikodemus: btw, in esrap you should export the symbol `&' ;) 11:04:54 p_l: ah... ha. :-) 11:05:37 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 11:05:39 prxq: Clang would probably fix the common woe of "FFI to C++" ;-) 11:06:29 p_l: otoh, then you'd have to deal with C++. 11:06:30 adeht: thanks! (done) 11:06:42 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:06:43 guys I know this problem example of mine is a bit long in the tooth but the example will run from a cut and paste if you have hunchentoot ... is there a kind soul out there that has a moment to check if I am going mad? 11:06:46 prxq: only once, writing the interface for Clang 11:07:14 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:07:14 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-uuulphwqrizmvuhh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:07:14 -!- sytse [sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:07:22 lichtblau: updated 11:07:28 prxq: if you make a C interface that would output datastructure similar to cons cell, it wouldn't be that bad :D 11:07:51 *TDT* sighs at clojure 11:07:57 sytse [sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 11:08:11 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-cykapshqjgwguwox] has joined #lisp 11:08:49 lichtblau: do you have a lauchpad account yet? 11:08:53 christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:00 (nevermind, found it) 11:09:13 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 11:12:38 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-139-143.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:39 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:18:09 -!- Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.129.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:18:40 nikodemus: sorry for bothering with details. I am about to upload sbcl-1.0.36-x86-64-linux-binary.tar.bz2 to sf.net, and would put the sig in a file called sbcl-1.0.36-x86-64-linux-binary.tar.bz2.asc. Is that ok? 11:18:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:21:54 prxq: i honestly don't remember what the practice has been. check doc/internals-notes/release-checklist.txt and/or previous releases 11:22:22 (but it sounds sensible to me) 11:23:36 nikodemus: I see. Btw, how does one upload files? :-) The obvious places are turning up empty. 11:23:58 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 11:24:08 Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.130.106] has joined #lisp 11:24:12 is there a way to see what is on the "call stack" in SBCL while you are in a call? 11:25:27 sb-debug:backtrace 11:25:28 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:25:31 backtrace-as-list ; not that i advocate this for other than debugging purposes 11:26:03 prxq: again, not the faintest idea. every time i've done it i've had to puzzle it out anew 11:26:41 nikodemus: ok 11:26:51 rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:01 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-91-64.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:28:55 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:29:03 hi all im having difficulty compiling clisp for a jornada 690 (superhet3) on jlime... any ideas any one ? 11:29:12 -!- Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.130.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:29:22 rodt: what's the trouble? 11:29:33 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-216-227-122-39.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:33 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-216-227-122-39.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:29:33 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:30:05 well the code needs to know aobut the cpu and generate some asm for it... and it doesnt seem to know about superhets 11:30:42 jornada3? Isn't that SH3 not "superhet"? 11:31:07 yeah SH3 .. but SH is an abbreviation for SuperHet 11:31:28 p_l, bot ? 11:31:57 what bot? 11:32:13 if anyone is interested in writting bots, come to ##nlpbots we are working on some ;) 11:32:25 p_l, a computer program 11:33:14 rodt: I know. I'm just lost in what you were asking about with question about "bot" :D 11:33:34 sorry ignore im me, im trying to think too much lol 11:35:37 im just wondering how much hassle it might be to add a section for SH3 ? 11:36:09 clisp-devel mailing list is probably the best place to ask 11:36:35 nikodemus: I'm not succeeding in making the docs. I get a "File name too long" error. Any ideas? 11:36:48 thanx adeht,nikodemus 11:37:26 thanks nikodemus 11:37:41 why are there all the unavailable arguments? 11:37:45 (FAST-METHOD (SETF VALUE) (T T)) # # # data) 11:39:48 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:40:46 AFAIK, methods consists of several "layers" (local lambdas), and depending in which "layer" the error is signaled, the compiler might have transfered the data to a later layer so the data is not available. 11:41:21 nikodemus shall flame if this is gratuitously wrong :-) 11:41:38 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:40 Harag: permuation vector stuff, i think 11:41:47 not sure offhand 11:42:21 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:42:23 or possibly list of next methods & permutation vector 11:43:21 pjb [~t@80.29.251.247] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 11:43:39 ok thats out of my league 11:46:14 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:18 has anyone managed to get lisp going with a rich text editor (through ajax/js etc)? if so, what did you use? 11:49:13 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:52:46 what has lisp got to do with a js editor? 11:52:47 Harag, try changing optimization settings to (debug 3) and recompile, however I don't know if PCL accessors don't have local delcarations which would override that. 11:53:18 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:22 hypno, you mean embed lisp in a tich text editor ? 11:53:34 billstclai [~billstcla@dcha-aa-65-219-215-24.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:37 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:54:16 i found the promlem 11:54:24 -m +b 11:54:56 it was simple in the end...it was argument order 11:55:41 *Harag* commits harakiri 11:58:59 lichtblau, rodt: i'm sorry for beeing vague. here the thing: a customer has a lisp site and they want to be able to edit stuff themselves, preferably by just cliking on different sections of the site and just write text and insert images, etc. this is normally done with some special tags (contentEditable) and/or ajax/js and some RT-editor. i am somewhat lost how to get something like this going with Lisp tho, so i am looking for advice on what lispy optio 11:59:39 you wouldn't want to modify the Lisp code itself, but rather make a proper CMS... 12:01:01 hypno: if you use hunchentoot i have code for you that does that 12:01:05 hypno: ok. I think TinyMCE is where it's at when it comes to contentEditable wrappers in JavaScript land. 12:01:58 Harag: i would be interrested in that yes! :) 12:01:58 What we do is that we take the HTML coming from the browser, and clean it up with a couple of XSLT stylesheets before allowing it into our database. 12:02:28 So, TinyMCE + Hunchentoot + Closure HTML + Xuriella. 12:02:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-91-64.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:03:02 (Actually, for us it's still HTMLArea + Aserve + HTMLTidy + libxslt, but I feel pretty bad about admitting it.) 12:03:17 lichtblau: ah, nice. i'll investigate those, thanks. 12:03:25 i have to do something like that with my site... 12:04:35 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179160048.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 12:04:37 what part was the editor ? 12:05:10 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AAF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:45 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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seconds] 13:52:14 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:37 when reading a file on on linux with the lisp reader and it contains crlfs should the Cr's be hidden away? 13:53:11 dmiles: depends on the external format 13:53:56 dmiles: also depends on what you're doing with the data 13:54:03 dmiles: or did you mean to ask what should be the default? 13:54:29 by default when loading a .lisp file for instance 13:54:48 i find -E utf-8 stops it crashing :) 13:55:20 wondering if one should require rodt to do what he does 13:55:45 dmiles: surely the default should be to use unix line endings 13:56:34 ok now for windows load a linux file.. should there be prpblems if it only contains linux line endings? 13:56:35 but perhaps CRs should be considered whitespace, hmm 13:57:23 trying to find a default behaouver that would cause consistency between both platforms 13:57:53 to eighter barf on each others or work fine on both 13:58:00 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:07 Hello all. 13:58:18 well let us know if you find a decent way :) 13:58:25 hello nyef :) 13:58:26 dmiles: isn't CR supposed to be white space anyway? 13:58:44 luis: ah.. perhaps that is the issue 14:00:27 ... Are network interfaces supposed to show up in the output of lshal? 14:01:37 nyef: I guess so 14:02:06 Damn. No wonder nm-applet is being useless. 14:02:26 dmiles: SBCL seems to handle CR as whitespace, so it has no problems with CRLF-encoded lines. Which Lisps barf on CRLF lines? 14:02:58 luis: actually i hadnt confirmed.. someone else said ABCL is 14:03:13 ... Wait, SBCL handles CRLF properly now? 14:03:25 (SYSTEM:WHITESPACEP #\return) ==> T 14:03:34 so maybe its the java code in the reader 14:03:37 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 14:03:56 nyef: fsvo (: 14:03:59 nyef: FSVO properly at least. 14:04:17 Mmm... I'd expect it to cause READ problems in strings, at the very least. 14:04:20 multi-line format strings suffer 14:04:24 right 14:05:51 Anyone have any thoughts and/or links on github vs gitorious vs assembla vs launchpad for issue tracking? 14:05:54 -!- pjb [~t@80.29.251.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:16 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:08:56 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has left #lisp 14:10:51 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:15:11 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 14:23:04 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 14:23:05 luis: my tastes have guided me towards gitorious + launchpad 14:25:10 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@80.216.63.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:26:28 lichtblau: ping 14:27:05 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-30-12.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:27:46 fe[nl]ix: by using launchpad instead of gitorious's stuff you lose integration between git and the issue tracker, no/ 14:28:33 waat, gitorious has a tracker? 14:29:11 Oh, no it doesn't. github does. 14:29:52 waat, github has a tracker? :) 14:30:31 ha, never noticed that 14:30:36 -!- blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has left #lisp 14:31:07 Probably recent. 14:33:30 not that i'm a github power user 14:35:02 luis: hrrm a Q.. * SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* => UTF-8 .. but realizing it not making assumptions about CrLf .. are LineEndings related to line endings? 14:35:31 luis: i know your answer at first is still correct becasue it does relate to UTF-16 from my windows NT machine 14:35:58 luis: i just poked at it, but i don't see how it associates commits and issues at all 14:35:59 http://github.com/nikodemus/esrap/issues/closed#issue/1 14:36:24 oops "are LineEndings related to line endings?"/"are LineEndings related to Encoding as well?" 14:36:45 external-format is not just an encoding 14:36:59 (well, in sbcl *right now* it is just an encoding) 14:37:25 dmiles: see Edi Weitz's stream library whose name I forget atm, for an example. 14:37:27 but it could be -- and will, in future -- also include newline translation policy 14:37:39 fe[nl]ix: hi 14:37:40 see ccl for example 14:37:59 luis: chunga? 14:38:05 flexi-streams 14:38:11 ah 14:38:28 lexible bivalent streams for Common Lisp 14:38:47 lichtblau: all branches I pushed to sionescu-hemlock on Feb. 1 were already de-tabified 14:38:49 thnak yuo 14:39:00 dmiles: that's the one. Its external formats allow for different line ending policies. 14:39:19 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-30-12.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:39:20 lichtblau: I hadn't realized you were waiting for me to finish detabifying 14:39:35 btw, I wonder, is there a way to portably do a "lazy list/stream" in CL? 14:40:30 dmiles: in any case, as other have mentioned, since CR is whitespace the main culprit would be multi-line strings and stuff like that. Most code should compile just fine even if line endings are not being handled properly. 14:41:06 luis: yeah i think i am chasing down one bug plus one feaure add 14:41:49 i was going to try to do both at the same time.. but i better make sure the whitepace is legally happening 14:41:53 nikodemus, fe[nl]ix: okay. Should we reset to sionescu-hemlock/master and then try to cherry-pick new stuff (ce855b1f..HEAD) over to the new tabfree world? 14:42:37 lichtblau: I'd hate to have to redo everything because it takes hours - using emacs in batch mode to detabify 14:42:47 okay, then cherry-pick it is. 14:43:02 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 14:45:31 well, how can I tell rebase to magically fix whitespace differences? 14:46:13 I believe I have seen some git-config options related to that. 14:46:36 Maybe a "magically-fix-whitespace-differences" flag to git-rebase? 14:46:40 Axius [~hi@92.82.70.66] has joined #lisp 14:46:55 hmm, by upgrading my git, probably 14:47:04 I'd look for one, but I don't actually have git installed right now... 14:47:12 lichtblau: --ignore-whitespace 14:48:57 please don't reset master 14:49:19 i'd rather have a ginormous merge commit 14:49:49 (i have multiple checkouts of hemlock and various branches in them, and i'd hate to have to update them manually) 14:50:14 i can volunteer to craft the merge 14:51:31 nikodemus: I think that was the whole point of using filter-branch 14:51:54 ? 14:52:22 nikodemus: to detabify the entire history and rewrite HEAD 14:53:59 ok, wait 14:54:08 so you've detabified the entire history? 14:54:20 yeah, and in fe[nl]ix repository, even your branches are already detabified. 14:54:21 yes 14:54:54 ok, i surrender :) 14:54:58 if you haven't done _too_ much hacking since early this year, a merge from those shouldn't hurt much. 14:55:18 anyway, it's too late now. I've push -f ed. 14:55:23 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:55:29 no -- i just have a lot of checkouts, so i need to do same things over and over 14:55:54 besides: if the whole history is detabified, there is no sensible way to merge 14:56:03 (as there is no shared history) 14:56:24 so it's an understanable choise 14:56:42 choice:) 14:56:55 well, say, sionescu/merge-wip-misc-command-goodness and sionescu/master share history... 14:57:01 fe[nl]ix: did you kill trailing whitespace too? 14:57:13 yes 14:57:24 \o/ yay! 14:58:04 minor issue being that hemlock now actually implements indent-tabs-mode: nil, but doesn't have show-trailing-whitespace: t yet. 14:58:05 *luis* surrendered at work. Enabled tabs, and changed the trailing-whitespace face from red to something less distracting. 14:58:10 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.68.52] has quit [Quit: freakrobot] 14:58:36 nikodemus: I just used emacs to open each file, select the entire buffer and call untabify 14:58:39 easy, but slow 14:59:23 and delete-trailing-whitespace too 14:59:25 -!- Slom [~a@pD9EB733F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 14:59:44 wow, not "expand -t"? 15:00:16 arguably the trailing-whitespace face isn't there to keep things clean of trailing whitespace, they are there to give the user a feeling of utter superiority when looking at other people's code, when those people evidently can't even drive a text editor! ;-) 15:01:23 lichtblau: heh, agreed. But it turned out to be wwwwaaaay too distracting. 15:02:50 btw, quick poll (among you two hemlock users). Which backend are you using? 15:03:13 I've grown fond of the X11 backend by now, although I still use the TTY, too. 15:03:54 lichtblau: I wouldn't trust expand to come up with the correct indentation. emacs does the right thing 15:04:03 lichtblau: TTY here 15:07:49 Zan-Xhipe [~User@dsl-241-56-177.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:08:36 lichtblau: ever thought of turning hemlock into a structured editor ? 15:10:38 Not really. My personal goals with hemlock are modest: Just build on what's there already and try to make it compete with slime as far as possible with little effort. 15:12:08 lichtblau: re C-h & Backspace: if default bindings are unchanged, C-h and Backspace work the same 15:12:31 i use the TTY mostly 15:16:03 *p_l* ponders if any of the database access libraries (with possible exception of clsql) deal with cursors. 15:17:08 cl-rdbms does 15:18:43 lichtblau: sounds like a rare case, at least when I look back to virtually all database tools I worked with (that weren't into "enterprise" category) 15:19:00 cursors seem wholly underappreciated :/ 15:19:01 pg.lisp does, iirc 15:19:19 i'm pretty sure any sensible library has cursors 15:20:04 (make that sensible CL db library, maybe) 15:20:40 nikodemus: probably they have. doesn't mean it actually shows up, especially in higher-level layers of various ORMs 15:21:44 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.70.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:12 funny thing, I ended up finding about them only because I wanted to read up on possible ways for nice caching/laziness in DB access code and found some references to it in PostgreSQL documentation. But then, I finally got into more advanced SQL due to MS Access 15:27:05 -!- Zan-Xhipe [~User@dsl-241-56-177.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:11 Zan-Xhipe [~User@dsl-241-56-177.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:34:24 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-8-4.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:37:09 blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has joined #lisp 15:37:10 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 15:38:27 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:40:00 lichtblau: does Edit Command Definition work at all now? 15:40:18 (i can't get it to take me anywhere) 15:41:19 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:11 nikodemus: btw, you wanted to have a discussion about osicat ? 15:46:15 -!- Zan-Xhipe [~User@dsl-241-56-177.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:04 no, you're right. it uses fun-defined-from-pathname, which is implemented only on cmucl. 15:47:14 counterquestion: what does "grep -r VDSUSP /usr/include/" say for you? 15:47:25 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:47:45 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:48:40 /usr/include/sys/termios.h:#define VDSUSP 11 /* ISIG together with IEXTEN */ 15:49:20 okay, perhaps that's why the commit works for you? I don't get anything. OSICAT provides the symbol, but no value. 15:49:20 I don't have it 15:50:13 i'll conditionalize it 15:50:19 caljunior [~user@82-168-237-95.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 15:50:32 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:34 bsd systems and gnu libc should have it 15:50:45 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:50:56 -!- caljunior [~user@82-168-237-95.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 15:52:08 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-128-47.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:57 nikodemus: (constant (cflag-VDSUSP "VDSUSP") :optional t) 15:53:38 yeah, i'll add a boundp check 15:53:56 and comments for the flags in hemlock as penance ;) 15:54:02 and there's a typo: TCSAFNOW -> TCSANOW 15:57:32 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:57:44 fe[nl]ix: where's that? 15:58:14 found it 16:00:33 -!- SleepingYote [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00:53 nikodemus, I think the "variale" typo is still there too 16:02:41 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:10 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:58 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:04:15 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:38 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:23 algokick [~algokick@100.133.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:34 Adlai? 16:07:01 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-2263.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:53 and now i tuoped the commit mossage 16:08:01 i scuck 16:09:19 nikodemus, in commit 1.0.36.22, "variale" 16:16:33 ah, NEWS. i'll fix that at some point :) 16:19:24 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:16 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:17 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: exit, pursued by a bear] 16:25:13 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-128-47.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:33 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 16:25:37 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:24 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:29:22 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:31:55 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.211] has joined #lisp 16:32:36 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:50 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:35:00 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:55 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:38:22 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:30 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-21-105.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:42 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:50:15 -!- algokick [~algokick@100.133.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:53:07 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:54:03 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:55:10 dabr [~dabr@81.62.160.126] has joined #lisp 16:56:37 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has joined #lisp 16:58:34 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:59:46 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 16:59:52 -!- Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:19 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 17:02:31 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:43 phew, fuzzy completion successfully stolen from swank. Now Hemlock is usable. 17:09:09 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:22 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224126158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:10:00 krasno [~nathan@c-68-48-197-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:16 Has anyone made a syntactic wrapper for C in lisp? 17:10:45 krasno: Which way? 17:10:52 going from lisp to C 17:11:00 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:05 Lispy syntax for C code? There've been a couple. 17:11:11 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:22 I've looked, and didn't find much... 17:11:29 Parser for C syntax for whatever reason, there've been a couple... 17:11:45 sexpr-c or scexp come to mind for the lisp->c angle. 17:11:57 But my memory is fuzzy, so neither might hit on google. 17:12:00 a generic framework for writing such stuff could be interesting... 17:12:13 I'm doing something with it in haskell. 17:12:42 Using a typeclass to turn a C ast into C source code, and a function to turn an encoding of c in lisp into C asts. 17:12:55 I still wonder why there's no "lisp datatypes" library for C, for example. So you could use it in wrappers to generate certain types that don't exist in C but which could be nicely mapped into Lisp. 17:13:32 As in, libraries for symbols and linked lists and such? 17:13:45 those being the notable not-in-c bits of lisp. 17:14:17 lispm [~joswig@e177123046.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:49 krasno: yes. 17:16:21 Well, what would symbols be? They seem like something that doesn't have much of an anologue in a static language. 17:16:33 Instead of doing multiple Lisp->C->Lisp round trips, for example when you need to get a tree, you could do that on the C side and then copy a cons-based tree out. 17:16:39 Of course, when you start setting the no-exe bit and allocating function pointers, C stops being static.... 17:17:12 p_l: I don't follow. I only go from Lisp -> C, with Haskell datatypes as an intermediary. 17:17:13 krasno: not mapped directly, built from strings limited to preferably SIXBIT, I guess :P 17:17:47 But the functions of symbols in lisp has no real anologue in C. 17:17:58 krasno: I meant during runtime, where you jump from into (usually SysV) C ABI and back 17:18:15 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:27 The goal for my code is to compile the lisp-like syntax into C syntax, and compile that. 17:18:47 krasno: I know, that's why they would be *explicitly* used in wrappers, not automatically mapped to anything. Supposedly you wanted to use keywords/symbols in some datastructure returned from C side 17:19:23 I'm thinking that you would use string literals, modified however you please through the lisp macro system. 17:19:50 I could have a builtin for symbol->string. 17:20:00 but its essentially macro-level. 17:20:11 krasno: I did, however, consider a way to build shared objects that could have the Lisp-side wrappings generated at runtime from data stored in the shared object. 17:20:17 or in my case, lisp->C compilation stage level. 17:20:22 I actually plan on that for .NET binding. 17:20:31 Oh, I see. That's not the sort of thing I'm aiming for. 17:20:40 I want to have transparent useful lisp macros in C code. 17:20:45 except .NET has explicit support for annotations. 17:22:37 of course, it would all become moot if I manage to rope Clang into generation of FFI code... 17:23:35 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:45 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 17:24:18 -!- blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has left #lisp 17:26:09 p_l: Something wrong with the existing .NET bindings? 17:28:00 pjb [~t@80.29.251.247] has joined #lisp 17:28:12 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:28:41 nyef: bound to MS implementation of CLR and moreover, bound to obsolete part of it 17:29:33 .NET is soon entering v4.0 (if not already is v4), while Managed C++ which is used by RDNZL was marked "obsolete" by 3.0 afaik 17:29:52 Fair enough. 17:30:06 it will still work etc., but .NET is rather fast in evolution, even if it does maintain backwards compatibility. 17:30:45 my idea included quite a lot on the .NET side, unlike the typical way of writing FFI nearly completely on CL side 17:31:08 Somewhere on my copious "vague project ideas" list is a C source-code parser, for use in both auto-generation of SB-ALIEN definitions and as the front-end for a C compiler in Lisp. 17:31:15 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:32 the difference is that .NET supports user-definable attributes that are actually left there with standard API 17:31:52 nyef: try writing a C wrapper for Clang-as-library and use that :) 17:32:09 would even generate code for full C++ class support 17:34:45 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:02 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-24-188.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:38:48 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fzstyrgudjeowyct] has left #lisp 17:44:30 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:11 pjb` [~t@95.124.37.67] has joined #lisp 17:48:34 -!- pjb [~t@80.29.251.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:51:14 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:51:52 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:23 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 17:55:18 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:57:05 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:57:24 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:59:46 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:49 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:50 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 18:03:43 mega1 [~quassel@3e44a62a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:04:48 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177123046.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:55 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-164.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:06:01 -!- dabr [~dabr@81.62.160.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:06:56 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 18:09:19 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082DE27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:48 yay, a CL vs PLT flamewar! 18:11:45 Good evening! 18:11:47 Where? 18:12:51 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:12:51 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082D1D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:12:54 hey beach 18:13:00 franki^: where else... c.l.l 18:13:01 Hello beach. 18:13:39 Well, it's my day off and I feel like reading a nice flamewar.. 18:13:52 -!- jao [~jao@83.42.211.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:14:03 it's pretty thin as far as flamewars go :( 18:14:05 (so far) 18:15:43 Oh well 18:15:53 I guess that I'll have to find something else to read. 18:16:11 yeah, it's not very interesting. 18:16:17 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 18:16:18 For example, I could actually learn some Lisp. :) 18:18:58 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-98.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:57 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:22:09 TR2N [email@89-180-137-177.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:26:45 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-24-188.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:15 Erkez [~erkez@189.38.189.185] has joined #lisp 18:30:58 I think I found a sensible use for progv :x 18:31:00 ljames pasted "Is this a sensible use of PROGV?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96380 18:31:33 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:08 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-36-84.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:32:24 ljames: not really... The first issue is, of course, the use of macroexpand-all. 18:32:55 well, I'd have to make a full fledged code walker otherwise, macroexpand-all seems less work 18:34:53 though, what exactly are the drawbacks of using macroexpand-all for that purpose? 18:35:01 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:02 I don't see what the gensyms buy you, and it seems to me you're trying too hard to be general. 18:35:46 macroexpand-all introduces fragility in your code and is a dsign you're abusing macros. 18:36:25 Just walk the body for :slot or :value forms, like CL-WHO. 18:38:27 I haven't read the source of CL-WHO, but I guess I will. What exactly is the idea? to just do a recrusive/tree search of all code? Wouldn't that be more fragile? 18:39:29 ljames: what are you actually trying to achieve? 18:39:31 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:11 drewc`, I have a body of code which contains mentions of accesses to certain slots of a class. I need to walk the code to get all the slot names and build a class from that. 18:40:25 why? 18:41:03 there's an example of some hypothetical usage code in that paste 18:41:42 all i see is an obfuscated macro ... why do you need this syntax? 18:42:10 hmm, basically I'm trying to do a Lispy library which implements a form of binary templates similar to this: http://www.sweetscape.com/010editor/templates.html 18:43:51 the idea is that it describes the binary structure, but at the same time allows normal lisp code to be mixed in 18:44:04 ljames: I really like PCL's approach to that problem. 18:44:06 so you could for example read slots depending on previous values(a verison in that case) 18:46:25 Xach: PCL's approach is quite nice indeed. I was just experimenting around with various ideas. 18:46:40 ljames: so the actual problem is 'read binary files'? 18:48:01 drewc`, yes. I'm trying to write a macro which describes how to read and possibly write complex binary structures, and I'm attempting to reduce code duplication as much as possible in the definitions. 18:48:35 of course, I could just avoid the code walker and define the class separately 18:48:58 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:04 'morning 18:49:12 ljames: macros expand to code... before you can write a macro, you need to have code for them to expand to. All i see is a defclass here, so i'm confused as to what process this code is describing. 18:49:50 drewc`, I just started writing it. I haven't written the expanders for the readers and writers yet. 18:50:06 the first step was to just walk the body of code and collect the slot names to write a defclass form 18:50:30 ljames: the first step is always working code.. the macro is a last and hopefully not needed step 18:51:18 ljames: i submit to you that it is possible to define a protocol for reading and writing binary structures that in concise and elegant, and does not involve code walkers 18:51:27 s/in/is 18:52:04 well, if I just specify the slot names by hand, I wouldn't need a code walker at all. 18:54:18 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:55:03 though, I'd like to see such a protocol as well. I was trying to achieve a level of conciseness/clarity/ease of use similar to the example in that URL i pasted earlier. 18:55:57 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:56:52 demmeln [~Adium@188.110.173.104] has joined #lisp 18:57:00 -!- demmeln [~Adium@188.110.173.104] has left #lisp 18:59:26 toekutr_ [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:35 -!- toekutr_ [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:37 -!- kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:01:44 ljames: hold on, i'll paste a sketch of what i'd do. 19:03:23 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-113-98.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:03:26 maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:04:59 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:54 stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:06:12 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:06:12 bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:07:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:08:26 W32Erkez [~erkez@189.38.189.185] has joined #lisp 19:09:06 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:20 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:21 -!- W32Erkez [~erkez@189.38.189.185] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:41 W32Erkez [~erkez@189.38.189.185] has joined #lisp 19:10:45 -!- Erkez [~erkez@189.38.189.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:48 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:10:53 -!- W32Erkez [~erkez@189.38.189.185] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:41 http://filebin.ca/ftjcap/xiotank15.ogv <----- more lisp audio video game stuff :) 19:16:11 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:04 lisppaste: url? 19:18:05 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:19:40 demmeln [~Adium@188.110.173.104] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-128.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:18 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:35 drewc pasted "sketch of use of vapourware binary class reader" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96381 19:20:46 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:00 ljames: ^ 19:21:17 brushie_ [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:19 -!- demmeln [~Adium@188.110.173.104] has left #lisp 19:21:45 *ljames* reads 19:21:46 *_3b* should try converting my binary parser stuff to mop style one of these days 19:22:13 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:22:43 <_3b> the final syntax isn't too bad, but the internals are ugly :( 19:22:57 Oh, that's right. I have a working-enough system to watch random videos again. 19:23:02 _3b: macros are hairy... that's why i prefer the MOP in a lot of cases. 19:23:09 *nyef* fetches dto's latest video. 19:23:13 <_3b> (though at least the current version has at least slightly sane compile times on sbcl now :) 19:23:20 _3b: the macros are still hairy, but someone else has written them and they are standard ones :) 19:23:22 hi nyef 19:23:29 Hello dto. 19:23:45 <_3b> drewc`: yeah, i just haven't gotten around to internalizing enough mop stuff to use it easily 19:23:46 -!- brushie [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:23:54 So, you know what'd be neat? A speech-controlled lisp game! 19:24:22 i'm going to do a feet-controlled lisp game soon. 19:24:26 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:24:29 i bought a compatible dance pad. 19:24:43 Lambda lambda revolution? 19:24:47 hahaha 19:24:49 a 'hackers guide to CLOS MOP' is on my list of things to write 19:25:01 Here, here. 19:25:56 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:01 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:03 that's rather nice. This actually reminds me, I did write a similar metaclass the other day, adding a :binary-type initarg to my own slot-definition class. It was fine for types, but I ran into a minor problem. I wanted to add some sort of :on-predicate/dependency handler which was supposed to be a lambda, but since defclass quotes all such arguments 19:26:18 the only way to do it and capture the lexical environment would have been to write one's own defclass 19:27:12 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-209-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:55 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-182-168.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:28:57 ljames annotated #96380 "How to extend slot-definition" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96380#1 19:29:46 1440x1080? 19:29:52 My poor screen! 19:30:16 nyef: mplayer can scale things well 19:30:38 *drewc`* learned that from trying to watch lispm's stuff 19:31:53 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:33:00 ... Lovely, now my X server just died horribly. 19:33:15 from playing a screencast? 19:33:35 Something's not stable, clearly. 19:33:40 nyef: what were you watching? 19:34:02 ljames: yeah.. you can cheat though 19:34:02 Input also locked up, apart from the power switch. 19:34:09 *rsynnott* hasn't had any X11 trouble of any sort in a year. It's presumably saving up so that it can cause my computer to explode in a few months, or something 19:34:23 drewc`, how? I can COMPILE the definition, but that still doesn't capture the lex env 19:34:39 i frequently get bizarre behaviour out of the nvidia binary driver. 19:35:36 drewc`: what do you mean by "hacker's guide to MOP"? As in "how to use MOP" or "how to tweak MOP implementation in ..."? 19:35:56 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:10 p_l: as is how to use it, some patterns, corner-cases tips and tricks etc 19:36:26 i think that'd be a worthwhile doc. 19:36:28 drewc`: I'm *trying* to keep it thin. 19:36:50 drewc`: GREAT! mopintro was quite good, but left a feeling of being "not enough" 19:37:15 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:26 HG` [~HG@xdslec201.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:50 I actually did define another macro which defined those lambdas separately, but that kind of defeats the purpose. 19:38:15 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 19:38:22 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:23 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:50 ljames: well, besides making a macro that expands to ensure-class, you can use a slots :initform to capture the lexical environment. hackish, but i've used it. 19:40:48 ah 19:41:25 ljames: but, generally, not capturing the lexical environemt is another option :) 19:41:30 I think I blame either X or the intel video driver. 19:41:46 dto: Neat-looking screencast. 19:42:07 I suppose. I just ended up settling with just making a separate macro. 19:42:36 nyef: thasnks :) 19:42:58 How often are the lispgames compos run? 19:43:08 well its 2010, we could have one now. 19:43:15 the last was 2009 19:43:20 dto: where is this screencast? 19:43:24 dto: cool screencast indeed 19:43:34 http://filebin.ca/ftjcap/xiotank15.ogv 19:43:42 nice ++ogg 19:44:30 eli: no need to let a good flamewar go to waste :). I was looking forward to learning more about PLT's module system, fo one. 19:44:33 it's sort of a 12-tone composition thing. very simple but neat 19:44:36 for* 19:45:09 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:14 vlc++? 19:45:35 -!- krasno [~nathan@c-68-48-197-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:45:36 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:46 krasno [~nathan@c-68-48-197-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:48 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:52 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:17 why ogv, though? 19:46:21 *p_l* finds Matroska a better format 19:47:36 drewc`, in your binary class reader sketch, what what exactly does define header.version? (slot-value header 'version)? (header-version header)? 19:47:36 nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:40 Matroska for container, h264 for video, MP3/MP4/Vorbis/AC3/FLAC for audio <--- my standard 19:48:38 *-what 19:49:16 ljames: oh... that should have been (header.version header) 19:49:21 ah 19:49:35 and that is obviously an accessor defined automagically in the defclass 19:49:35 RolaBlade [~Rola@hoasb-ff08dd00-36.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:49:59 -!- RolaBlade [~Rola@hoasb-ff08dd00-36.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 19:50:11 (i do this for my sql orm library actually, because foo.bar is sql-ish syntax) 19:51:07 ljames: though, (define-symbol-macro header.version (slot-value header 'version)) and that works as written :P 19:53:14 <_3b> drewc`: how would you handle things like slots that are optional depending on other slots in the object? 19:55:02 _3b: i'd keep a 'non-record' slot in the instance that contains a boolean that is set, and specialize on READ-RECORD-USING-SLOT on the optional slot to check that flag 19:56:07 (defmethod read-record-using-slot (stream record (slot (eql 'optional-slot)) (if (set-optional-slot-p record)...))) 19:56:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-31-182-168.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:56:15 <_3b> and i guess the other way around for writing it out again? 19:56:39 yeah... i suppose you could encode that information in the class definition if it comes up enough 19:56:49 which i guess is where ljames was going with his macro :) 19:56:49 <_3b> yeah, i have lots of those 19:57:02 p_l: MP4 is a generic container (same as matroska). AAC would be MP3's successor. 19:57:16 <_3b> and slots that have multiple entries depending on some function of 1 or more other slots, etc 19:57:24 ljames: that's what I meant. it was one letter less :P 19:57:35 _3b: something like cells then perhaps? 19:58:27 _3b: or... actually... 19:58:33 <_3b> nah, don't think cells would help, mostly just a question of how to make the syntax sufficiently non-annoying to write 19:58:41 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242356783.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:58:44 i think you need monads! :) 19:58:49 <_3b> (though since i'm done writing it, i'm probably not going to change it for a while) 19:59:05 <_3b> just curious about options for making it nicer when i get a chance 19:59:48 (binard-monad-let ((slot-1 (get-slot 'int) (slot2 (if (foo slot1) (get-slot2-foo) (get-slot 'char)))))) 20:00:16 and your binary file parser is just CPS... hrm. 20:01:48 _3b: i was thinking aloud there, but basically, the idea is that each field passes a function to the parser that will parse the next field and return the next function, etc 20:02:18 <_3b> hmm, sounds interesting 20:02:26 and you can of course modify that parser function as it's passed through 20:02:44 <_3b> a 'real parser' of some sort in general would probably have been a good idea :) 20:03:13 this is a likely a monad, but you could just as easily long hand it... 20:03:14 -!- rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:18 actually... he says... 20:03:37 i could probably use my dispatcher mechanism for this... 20:04:18 *drewc`* is making another sketch, back in a second. 20:04:24 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 20:08:18 rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:00 Hello gigamonkey. 20:13:22 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:10 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:16:21 prxq [~mommer@f051046095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:39 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:36 hi 20:20:38 heh... this is going to be a long second, but i'm on to something :) 20:21:49 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:43 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.103] has joined #lisp 20:24:59 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:06 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 20:26:04 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 20:27:12 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:40 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:44 <_3b> hmm, i guess i could even use contextl for some of this stuff that depends on version of the containing file/tag 20:32:48 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:34:26 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066165.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:18 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 20:36:51 <_3b> i don't suppose a metaclass can alter the slot definition syntax to the point of having a required arg before the keywords, right? 20:37:48 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:38:54 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:14 *prxq* does not understand that post by eli 20:42:16 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:44:27 _3b: I don't think so 20:45:26 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:45:55 <_3b> i guess that part could be handled by a macro then 20:46:25 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:49:24 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:53:19 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:53:22 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:53:54 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 20:54:17 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:56:02 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:56:36 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 20:57:54 clim apply-transformation 20:57:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for apply-transformation. 20:57:59 clim 1 20:57:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 1. 20:58:04 *nyef_* sighs. 20:58:15 clim define-presentation-translator 20:58:15 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/23-7.html#_1230 20:58:26 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:59:32 drewc: Well, the thing is that c.l.l is not a place to learn about anything, since any long thread will inevitably draw enough flames to render any actual content invisible... 21:00:07 (But that's IME, and I haven't been following up on either c.l.s or c.l.l too much, because of this counterproductive atmosphere.) 21:00:34 clim sheet-is-not-child 21:00:35 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for sheet-is-not-child. 21:00:37 Hrm... Yet -more- evidence of the spottiness of the CLIM spec. 21:01:50 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242356783.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:02:09 eli: it used to be worse in the past. Right now it is rather civilized. 21:02:41 eli: that said, your latest post on DSLs didn't make much sense to me. :-) 21:03:38 prxq: I know -- I think that I've been through some of the more rough times, with naggum, xah, and a few similar characters being active. 21:04:17 As for the post, feel free to ask me here (even if I'm not in) -- but see that pointer to the DEFUN tutorial, it's really the best explanation of how to put languages together in PLT. 21:04:33 (Even though it's pretty beginner-ish.) 21:05:01 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:07 eli: which defun tutorial? 21:08:01 eli: i find that i learn a lot when people defend their statements, even if the attackers are c.l.l goons. I've read the relevant documentation, and used PLT quite a bit... but i assume you know more than i do, so was looking forward to new insights. 21:08:27 since _i_ don't feel like having the discussion myself, really. :P 21:09:19 a pedagogy of voyeurism. :) 21:09:56 -!- krasno [~nathan@c-68-48-197-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:10:58 maden [~maden@dsl-157-166.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 21:12:11 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:12:25 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:13:51 prxq: http://tmp.barzilay.org/tutorial.txt 21:14:46 drewc: Yes, I agree that it can be very educational -- but actually doing it requires a huge effort. 21:15:11 And, as always, "I'd rather be hacking"... 21:15:18 eli: indeed, i can't blame you for not following up :) 21:15:43 :) 21:17:03 eli: you know, part of the problem with hygienic macros and modules etc. is that I find it hard to understand what kind of problem they are solving. 21:17:31 prxq: then you're not using macros enough 21:17:35 prxq: They're two different things; related -- but different issues. 21:17:53 Fare: I use quite a few macros and code generating things 21:18:11 prxq: The obvious side of hygiene is evident in how you need to gensym stuff in CL macros. 21:18:18 do you try to combine defining-macros from multiple people? 21:18:21 so far, so good. 21:18:35 Fare: no 21:18:49 eli: but then? 21:19:08 The other side is less obvious -- when you have a macro that expands to (if x y z), you want those names to refer to the bindings at the location where the macro is defined, not where it's used. 21:19:37 CL protects the `if' (in a hackish way: rebinding it in any way is forbidden), but not the following x y z. 21:19:46 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 21:19:59 And that kind of protection is particularly important when you're defining a new language. 21:20:05 eli: if x, y and z are gensyms, nothing can happen, right? 21:20:35 Right -- but if they refer to code that is in the originating module then they won't be gensyms. 21:20:47 Think about something like: 21:21:08 eli: but macros should use gensym to protect *others* from themselves too. 21:21:10 (defmacro foo (x) `(if (< ,x some-limit) "foo" "bar")) 21:21:32 And then using it with (let ((some-limit 100)) (foo x)) 21:21:42 pkhuong: ? 21:21:47 eli: what was the writer of foo thinking? 21:21:55 pass some-limit as an argument to foo 21:21:55 eli: aha, and then...? i don't see the problem 21:22:04 phadthai: I'm still not following. 21:22:11 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:43 and what pkhuong says. That's a badly written macro :-) 21:22:44 eli: So far, you've been trying to fix an imaginary problem. 21:23:08 pkhuong: How is it imaginary? 21:23:12 pkhuong: maybe we can hold our fire for a moment? 21:23:24 as in (defmacro foo (x some-limit) `(if (< ,x ,some-limit) "foo" "bar")) 21:23:25 eli: the example is not very good. 21:24:06 eli: I believe that hygienic macros are useful and a better default than CL-style macros. Yet, your argument would fail to convince me. 21:24:10 ljames: that's a different macro -- the point is that I want to use `some-limit' as a bound name that is part of the implementation of `foo'. 21:24:52 so symbol capture is the reason for hygenic macros? 21:24:58 I'll try to clarify: 21:25:15 You want to have a module (or package or whatever), that implements that `foo' macro, 21:25:27 ljames: in fact, a good version would be something like (defmacro foo (x some-limit) (with-gensyms (rx rk) `(let ((,rx ,x)(,rk ,some-limit)) (if (< ,rx ,rk) "foo" "bar")))) 21:25:30 as part of that, you want to use some local definitions like that `some-limit'. 21:25:40 eli: local to what? 21:25:43 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:48 And I don't want my own choice of name for that to have any kind of interaction with the user code. 21:25:57 pkhuong: local to the module that defines `foo'. 21:25:59 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-209-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:59 prxq, ah right, ONCE-ONLY. 21:26:14 ljames: ...or so :) 21:26:27 eli: that's what the package system is for. 21:26:48 pkhuong: Exactly -- see the bottom of the last post I made. 21:27:19 The package system is trying to be a solution for that, but it has a number of problems -- one problem that is evident here is that it works only at the package level. 21:27:45 so, why did you bring up the example with FOO above? 21:27:46 eli, you sound like "the problem with water is that it is wet" 21:27:52 It would fail -- for example -- if the user code happens to be in the same package, or it would fail if you want to divide your own package to separate parts. 21:27:59 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:28:35 prxq: whatever. 21:28:51 eli: in the given package, you'd have *specials* syntax to make sure you knew what you were doing. 21:29:05 has scheme always had hygenic macros? 21:29:37 Fade: no. It hasn't always had macros period. 21:29:44 ah 21:30:05 eli: don't you realize that your argument is completely circular? I'm not trying to "win an argument". I'm trying to understand it in the first place 21:31:08 Fade: It did in practice, but was not standardize because of the usual scheme-ly thing that made it be static for such a long time. 21:31:18 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 prxq: Well, I obviously don't see any circularity in what I said. 21:31:36 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-209-188.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:51 well, I asked, because I was wondering if steele or sussman et al. had a discussion about it archived somewhere. 21:31:54 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:16 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:39 eli: so, what is wrong with the version of the foo macro as I wrote it, and as it is usual to write macros in CL? 21:32:46 Fade: They were obviously aware of macros -- and there was no explicit intention to ban them from the language... 21:32:59 and what do packages have to do with it? 21:33:38 prxq: You mean (defmacro foo (x some-limit) ...)? That's a different macro than mine -- I had only one argument. 21:34:22 (Sorry my house leaking, I need to debug it...) 21:35:35 eli:ok, so let it be (defmacro foo (x) (with-gensyms (rx) `(let ((,rx ,x)) (if (< ,rx ,some-limit) "foo" "bar")))) 21:35:40 eli, and now? 21:37:05 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:37:58 well, one could always just put some-limit in some package, wrap some ** or .. or ++ around it depending on what it actually is, and there would be no real problem in practice 21:38:32 That's fine in practice, but it doesn't hold up in theory. 21:38:48 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39:10 there are always two sides of that story. I mean "everybody knows" that a GC solves a non problem. Ask your colleages :-) 21:39:27 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:39:35 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:39:46 obviously if some user REALLY wanted to rebind it, they could but they'd do so knowing exactly what they're doing. 21:40:01 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:26 if it was that much of a problem, one could put it in some globally special gensym i guess 21:41:56 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:42:11 *_3b* votes 'put some random characters around it' as a sign of a problem 21:42:14 ljames: we work around the issue without realising it. 21:43:02 <_3b> (in the same way as using case sensitivity to fake multiple namespaces) 21:43:31 I have some sympathy with the idea that CL macros aren't the end of the story. 21:44:19 debugging those macros usually sucks, but much, much less than many alternatives 21:44:32 prxq: hygienic procedural macros basically give us CL macros, except that you have to be explicit about capture instead of explicitly avoiding it. 21:44:56 pkhuong: sounds good. Is that all? :-) 21:46:11 prxq: they don't exist for CL (yet). 21:46:36 pkhuong: any idea why? 21:46:47 is it a fundamental limitation of the language? 21:47:11 i get the impression they were a response to issues that were uncovered by macros in CL to begin with. 21:47:19 http://p-cos.net/documents/hygiene.pdf 21:47:47 CL's an uglier beast than scheme, but nothing fundamental that I can see. People who really believe in hygiene tend to use scheme instead, while CL practicioners practice. 21:48:08 And, as we've seen before, we have developed 80% solutions. 21:48:48 Fade: fair enough, but a lot of time has passed. System definition, for example, keeps begetting solutions. Why not hygiene? 21:48:58 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:49:17 because defmacro is part of the cl specification. 21:49:26 we're more rigidly constrained in that regard. 21:50:23 Fade: but anyone could write a def-hygienic-macro, and go ahead. Nobody does. There's even iterate, for folks who think there's a better loop. 21:50:37 sure 21:51:02 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51:22 your observation brings us back to the notion that it isn't actually a problem in practice, it's a problem in theory. 21:51:25 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 21:51:42 because every CL programmer learns to deal with capture in macros. 21:52:14 hygenic macros would probably make the life of the newbie easier. 21:52:29 and then let him run against a wall 21:52:40 I'm wondering if there's an example of where they provide a facility for function that can't be had in CL. 21:53:51 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:53:55 Fade: turing metatarpit. 21:54:32 Is that anything like a metatarsal? 21:54:44 hah. good point. 21:56:42 <_3b> is there a 'lambda the ultimate tarpit' paper around somewhere? 21:56:46 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757a35.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:19 _3b: If there isn't, you can write one! 21:58:13 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:33 _3b: wouldn't that be the paper in which church shows that TMs and the lambda calculus are equally powerful? 21:59:25 clhs defclass 21:59:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 22:00:49 Defclass, unlike defstruct, doesn't define a predicate, does it? 22:01:07 whoever in here said that clojure was a pain to setup wasn't kidding, I just got it working today, heh. 22:01:32 nyef_: nope; typep! 22:01:37 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:01:58 Joy. I'll just method dispatch instead. 22:02:22 Also..which maybe kinda random, but what are people's thoughts about clojure thus far? I just got into it lately, and feel it similar in a lot of ways, a bit different than CL though. 22:02:52 my thought about clojure is that it means I don't hate java as much as I used to. 22:03:19 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslec201.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:29 Fade: I'm with you on that, I've been avoiding learning Java for awhile. The vast number of libraries is kinda why I'm looking at it..especially in the data mining area of things (my graduate research focus) 22:03:44 Younder [~jthing@212.251.245.39] has joined #lisp 22:04:30 Ok 'LAND of LISP' is out: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593272006/ref=snp_dp 22:05:01 clhs unwind-protect 22:05:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm 22:05:41 correction will be released march 28'th 22:08:03 wow. two books on clojure. That was fast 22:09:06 *prxq* realizes what a die hard CLer he is 22:09:12 clojure is well connected. (lot's of lib's) 22:10:49 how about abcl? 22:11:29 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 22:12:51 prxq, still has that (hated) CL syntax. But access to all the java lib's. Less support for MP 22:12:53 i mean, it floats in the same kind of soup 22:13:01 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-251.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:13:14 Cream of mushroom? 22:13:51 jambalaya 22:14:02 Pho 22:15:41 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:23 "Indonesian curried Java soup (sayur kare)"? 22:16:54 Is there a good way to turn a list into a list of n-length subsequences of that list? 22:17:00 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 22:17:33 "Giving up on assembly language was the apple in our Garden of Eden: Languages whose use squanders machine cycles are sinful. The LISP machine now permits LISP programmers to abandon bra and fig-leaf." 22:17:37 graham has a utility that does precisely that in on-lisp 22:17:38 mooglenorph: No, merely differently-bad ways. 22:17:45 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.26.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:17:48 I hacked together this, and it seems godawful: http://paste.lisp.org/display/96384 22:18:51 Yeah, that's a bit odd... 22:19:49 is 'end always going to be a number? 22:20:18 I think so. 22:20:32 TDT: you'll spend a lot more time fitting java libraries together and figuring out their eccentricies than in reimplementing the trivial ones in any other language 22:20:41 I'll just look up pg's solution, I'm too fried to make sense. 22:20:50 Okay, how about involving subseq? 22:20:51 lisppaste: url? 22:20:52 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 22:20:59 I mean, it *works*, but makes me suspicious as all hell. 22:21:07 prxq: Re (defmacro foo (x) (with-gensyms (rx) `(let ((,rx ,x)) (if (< ,rx ,some-limit) "foo" "bar")))) -- that's one way to deal with it, but it breaks down if the value is not one that can be serialized, for example, an OS port. 22:21:26 well, it's going to fail if 'end isn't a number. :) 22:21:52 eli: fair enough, but in that case you would do something else anyway, no? 22:21:57 (or a string, or a symbol, or a few other values.) 22:22:04 prxq: Why would you? 22:22:04 drewc annotated #96381 "parser combinators ... who needs classes?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96381#1 22:23:56 _3b, ljames: no matter what your syntax you can expand do something like that ^ 22:24:00 mooglenorph, (defun split-list (list num) (loop repeat (/ num (length (list)) collect (loop for e = list then (cdr list) collect (car e))))) or somehing like that 22:24:22 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:33 you could wrap it up in a monad, or use classes to compose the combinators. 22:24:44 hrm... actually... that might be neat. 22:24:49 eli: if the value is supposed to be defined at run time, and would be given by something close to the macro, then you'd have (defmacro foo (x) (with-gensyms (rx) `(let ((,rx ,x)) (if (< ,rx (some-limit)) ...))))). That's fill the bill, no? 22:25:14 mooglenorph, this has come up before and I provided a answer on comp.lang.lisp. This is a rough recollection, but needs work 22:25:54 Younder: ah, yeah, I'll try using a sane-er loop solution. 22:26:01 mooglenorph: there's a fairly recent post on that on c.l.l. Like, yesterday or the day before 22:26:03 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:26:15 ... Wait, what? (/ num (length list)) ? 22:26:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:21 prxq: No -- (let ((some-limit 100)) (foo blah)) will still fail. (And yes, it won't fail in CL -- but s/let/flet/ and you're in the same boat.) 22:26:43 eli: so it won;t fail in CL. 22:26:56 You missed the s/let/flet/ 22:27:15 eli: there's package business in between 22:27:19 But in any case, you're now abusing the double namespace only because you want to avoid a name clash. 22:27:33 why do you call it abusing? 22:27:47 Because you're defining a value as a function only to avoid a clash. 22:28:13 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 22:28:13 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 22:28:45 eli: i could have named it *some-limit*, so that its use is clear. And now? 22:28:52 mooglenorph, (defun split-list (list num) (loop repeat (/ num (length (list)) collect (repeat num collect (car e) do (setf list (cdr list)))) 22:28:53 drewc, CPS-like parsing? rather neat. 22:29:01 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 22:29:03 eli: and still, I object to your use of the word "abuse" 22:29:13 it is completely legitimate 22:29:28 to do things as i proposed 22:30:38 Younder: thanks 22:30:50 ljames: yeah, exactly. 22:30:56 prxq: Using `*some-limit*' won't work because the user can break your macro with (let ((*some-limit* ...)) (foo ...)); and I call it abuse because it really is a value -- IIUC, the only reason you're suggesting to make it into a function is because you want to avoid the name clash, otherwise there is no reason to make it into a function (which would just return some fixed value). 22:31:35 eli: if it returns a fixed value, then the original version would be fine. 22:32:02 No -- not if it's not a number. 22:32:45 eli: but then the whole thing makes no sense because of the '<' 22:32:54 *eli* sighs 22:33:01 *prxq* sighs too 22:33:07 (defvar my-port (open-some-file)) 22:33:16 where are the earmuffs? 22:33:28 (defmacro foo (x) `(write-to my-port ,x)) 22:33:30 There. 22:33:45 well, that's simply bad code 22:33:50 Why is that bad? 22:34:03 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:32 No *earmuffs*, and your macro gives you nothing that you wouldn't get from a declare inline. 22:34:57 eli: that's what the *earmuffs* are for. That solves the problem, really. 22:36:05 <_3b> if my-port isn't intended to be overridden by user code, why is it exported? 22:36:08 prxq: No -- the earmuffs are completely irrelevant. What you're (or I'm) trying to do here is to write a macro called `foo' that will not suffer because it is used in some particular way because of how it's used. If I add the stars, I will still suffer from (let ((*my-port* ...)) (foo ...)) 22:36:31 _3b: Good point: I *don't* want it to be exported. 22:36:43 *_3b* suspects eli uses packages differently from me 22:36:43 you can shoot yourself in the foot, alright 22:37:00 is anybody here using ABCL for anything substantial? 22:37:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:12 eli: but that's what the earmuffs are for. I you do that, i.e. write (let ((*my-port* ...)) (foo ...)), then you are not "suffering" any consequences. What happens is exactly what you asked for. 22:37:22 stassats: Huh? How did *I* shoot myself -- it's my user who would complain that my macro broke in his code when he used some random name. 22:37:46 <_3b> eli: if the user was working in the implementation package, they deserve it 22:37:51 eli: put off your earmuffs, and see the earmuffs! 22:37:55 :-) 22:38:08 prxq: I don't intend for user code to be able to modify it -- it is intended to be part of the implementation details, should be completely invisible outside. 22:38:17 well, everyone knows how to write macros that don't break if someone uses the same names 22:38:36 <_3b> eli: so don't export it, and don't write user code in other peop[le's packages :) 22:38:41 _3b: You're missing a bunch of context -- yes, a package can be used to solve it, I went over that a while back. The issue is with code inside the package. 22:39:04 <_3b> eli: no, my point is that the user code shouldn't be inside that package 22:39:27 Code inside the package is written by someone "in the know", and thus does not need to be catered to. 22:39:44 <_3b> if code inside the package can't override it either, that sounds inconvenient 22:39:49 _3b: Yes, I know. I *started* this (implicitly on cll) by saying that tha package system is an attempt to cover up for this side of the hygiene problem. 22:39:58 this is a lot of discussion for something as trivial as variable capture... 22:40:07 "cover up", "abuse", "hygiene problem". 22:40:16 eli: you have a vocabulary problem 22:40:18 <_3b> eli: i think the argument is that it 'solves/ not 'covers up' the problem 22:40:29 matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has joined #lisp 22:40:33 although I think i'm with pkhuong on the issue. 22:40:34 Fade: I agree, and prxq -- with that I'll disappear. 22:40:48 *stassats* uses soap to fight the hygiene problem 22:40:55 it would be better to have to explicitly capture something. 22:41:03 <_3b> eli: personally, i'd argue for just completely alpha converting and fully qualifying all packages at the editor level :) 22:41:08 *nyef_* uses soap to talk to enterprise data sources. 22:41:11 eli: there is no hygiene problem. The hygiene problem is in your head! 22:41:17 :-) 22:41:34 s/hygiene problem/spoon/ 22:41:55 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:42:10 prxq: That quote abuse has potential! 22:43:08 :-) 22:43:20 Maybe hygiene is more a problem in theory than it is in practice? 22:43:33 *Fade* gets deja vu 22:43:44 ...all over again 22:44:27 <_3b> is deja vu when the machines bind a symbol from the implementation package and change the macro? 22:44:43 heh 22:45:07 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:45:09 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:45:54 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:46:06 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:20 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8A27.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:46:21 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:47:59 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:48:10 ljames pasted ""Hygiene"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96385 22:48:20 -!- matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:48:39 -!- rlonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:29 rlonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:00 ljames: right, but some mean spirited poor newbie could redefine app-package::get-some-limit and cause no end of harm to himself and the planet 22:50:15 we must sop him! 22:50:23 actually redefining get-some-limit won't be a problem 22:50:27 since it just gets the value 22:50:35 and it won't interfere with the macro 22:50:43 on the other hand, redefining %get-some-limit-storage will 22:51:17 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 right, app-package::%get-some-limit-storage will. That's deadly 22:51:33 technically you could hide that away by making the defmacro expand that internal function, but really, that would be a contrieved example, and in no real-world situation this would be a problem, unless someone was intentionally bent on breaking the code 22:52:04 as in, have the defmacro keep an internal anonymous function, possibly in a closure 22:52:07 right, and in that case there is little point in trying to stop him at this level 22:53:46 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051046095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:54:44 enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:48 drewc annotated #96381 "class based combinators... get inheritance for free with or without MOP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96381#2 22:55:10 _3b: ljames: how about that? 22:56:36 if you're willing to pass the names of the specific fields you want to parse to the contructor, you don't need the MOP there at all. 22:56:46 drewc: Are initforms guaranteed to be processed in a particular order? 22:57:18 i'm not sure... it doesn't matter here. 22:57:21 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:30 <_3b> drewc: does it actually need the continuations, as poosed to just a loop? 22:58:55 <_3b> *opposed 22:58:58 Ah, I see. 22:59:57 _3b: it does if you want more advanced control flow. this is very simple example 23:00:18 that's a neat hack 23:00:19 Your other option, then, is a defmacro that produces the defclass and the appropriate list of slots for the parser. 23:00:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:00 francogrex [~user@171.85-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 23:01:12 this covers (defclass file () ((header :initform (header) (records :initform (read-records))))) as well 23:01:13 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:34 or rather 23:01:49 (records :initform (read-record)) 23:02:17 the parser for header will be able to call the record parser in a loop of its own because it was passed it as a continuation 23:02:32 <_3b> ah 23:02:55 and all sorts of crazy stuff like that... parsers can be setup to call themselves etc 23:03:08 CPS rules! 23:03:30 as long as your not using it to emulate first class continuations, it's a great tool 23:03:36 you're 23:03:48 <_3b> well, what if the header said to read 3 records, then 4 of some other field? 23:04:27 your combinators are really free to do whatever they want, it's all in how you structure them. 23:05:22 That's quite an interesting hack indeed. I should try playing out with it a bit to get an idea of what one can do with it. 23:05:50 -!- francogrex [~user@171.85-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:06:00 it's basically parsec without explicit monads (it's a monad though) and without any standard combinators 23:07:15 well, it's not parsec at all really... 23:07:23 as it uses streams and not strings. 23:07:49 but that's the idea, parser combinators. I think throwing them in the initform like that is original though :) 23:08:27 <_3b> makes it hard to have a default value when using that class as source data to be written though :p 23:09:03 <_3b> (well, :default-initargs... ) 23:09:11 well, you can have the parser eventually return a different class entirely with.. 23:09:12 yeah 23:09:22 instance of a different class* 23:09:33 <_3b> ah, i guess that could work 23:09:40 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:09:49 you can build up a whole meta-protocol around that as well 23:10:12 ie: have the record returned be a dispatch point for the rest of the parser etc etc 23:10:26 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:10:43 i find that when you mix functional code with clos, you get a lot of usable goodies :) 23:10:48 bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.39] has joined #lisp 23:11:20 if only for method dispatch... this comes back to categories, interface passing style, etc 23:11:44 what's the difference b/w :unspecific and nil in pathname components? 23:12:00 why does janderson map :unspecific to nil in merge-pathnames* ? 23:12:13 <_3b> yeah, i was thinking contextl could make for interesting stuff for defining different behavior for read/write/etc from a single definition for binary parser stuff 23:12:15 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:50 <_3b> that and a few mop tricks could probably get rid of a bunch of the ugliness of my parser 23:13:17 yup. contextl is another take on the same sort of thing. 23:13:34 JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:38 -!- JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 23:13:50 clhs 19.2.2.2.3.1 23:13:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_bbbca.htm 23:13:57 Fare: see ^ 23:14:05 <_3b> currently i do ugly macro tricks to use the same function names for both reading and writing 23:14:14 jao [~jao@248.Red-88-6-165.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:03 shouldn't a :unspecific value be left alone? 23:15:14 instead of being mapped to nil? 23:15:28 that's what merge-pathnames is specified to do 23:16:16 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-yltxddimhburfryk] has joined #lisp 23:17:45 Is there some standard(ish?) to get a pipe-like stream (or pair of streams)? 23:18:36 no 23:20:31 luis: you could implement one using the de-facto standard gray streams. 23:20:32 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:25 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:22:13 _3b: i was just thinking... if pass in the specfic slots to make-record-parser, you could combine them in an order you want, leave some out, etc etc. makes for some interesting ideas as well. 23:23:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 23:24:07 ljames: anyways, hope i made my point about macros :) 23:24:28 (5 hours laters) 23:24:46 s/s)$/)/g 23:24:57 matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has joined #lisp 23:27:06 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:27:53 -!- matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:06 matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has joined #lisp 23:28:10 -!- matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:28:11 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:15 luis: depending on what exactly you want to do, SERIES might partially fit... 23:29:50 drewc, yes, your protocol is rather expressive ;) 23:30:09 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AAF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:30:18 ljames: how about concise? 23:30:22 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:30:38 matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 what was the other criteria ... 23:31:10 *drewc* scrolls up 23:31:38 consise/clarity/ease ... i think i made it :) 23:31:40 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:43 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:32:14 or at least, all the complexity is hidden in the combinators themselves 23:32:29 gruseom [~daniel@d206-75-29-17.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:07 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-251.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:33:34 I'm not sure it's as easy to use as the original example, but it's overall decent 23:33:46 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:34:36 <_3b> drewc: seems a bit verbose to me, but a thin macro layer could probably fix that 23:34:39 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:49 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-128.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:35:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:36:11 <_3b> drewc: my main concern would be with needing to define a bunch of ctring-or-char-field things for each class 23:36:33 well, that where other combinators come in 23:36:34 <_3b> (probably also fixable in the macro, but less obviously so) 23:37:26 well, that's where a decent library of combinators comes in 23:37:34 p_l: well, I have a thread waiting for input on a bunch of streams and I want to cancel it at some point. The only I've come up with to do this is to include a dummy pipe in my set of streams and write to it. 23:38:41 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-200-29.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:51 i'm sure there are simple primitive combinators one could compose to create cstring-or-char-field in the same way string-field is field + read-sequence 23:39:15 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:39 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:40 and, of course, it's a monad, so you can hide it all behind a LET* (haskells do) type notation 23:40:13 a parser for things is a function from strings to lists of pairs of strings and things 23:40:22 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-242-77.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:28 <_3b> yeah, i guess since they return lambdas, the specific slot to conditionalize on could be added separately 23:41:46 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:42:22 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:42:27 right... i really inlined that one.. let me see if i can do better 23:42:38 *_3b* should really be working on the stuff that doesn't work yet, instead of the 'goo enough for now' parts :p 23:42:45 <_3b> *good enough 23:43:01 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:09 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44a62a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:46:41 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:04 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-yltxddimhburfryk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:48:22 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-200-29.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:48:26 For some unknown reason, every so often, the battery meter on this system claims that the battery is low... at about 75%, 50%, 25%... 23:52:07 ... This is possibly mathematically unsophisticated of me, but... how on earth can you transform a -distance-? 23:52:11 clim transform-distance 23:52:40 ... No specbot? 23:52:43 from feets to meters? 23:53:13 Ugh. And I'm without my ssh keys, so I can't fix it. 23:53:23 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-153-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:18 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 23:55:53 Hrm... Okay, I think I see why this is possible. 23:56:37 Clearly, I'm just going to have to sit down and try to implement it.