00:00:08 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 00:00:25 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-161-8.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:02:01 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 00:02:05 o/ 00:02:24 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:02:31 hi nikodemus 00:02:36 hoy 00:03:18 hey nikodemus, thank you for taking my little patch 00:03:26 fe[nl]ix: not *now*, but i think we should at some point talk about role of osicat/iolib 00:04:01 one note, though... "variable" is misspelled in the NEWS entry 00:04:03 (i think both have a role, but right now i'm too drunk to have a sensible conversation) 00:04:06 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:04:15 Adlai: oops :) 00:04:28 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 00:05:00 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f734ec0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05:22 *nikodemus* has been wined and dined *burb* 00:05:39 hehe 00:05:46 nikodemus: sire 00:05:49 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:59 *sure 00:06:01 and on the way home, i discovered a self published little book of poetry in the bar across the street 00:06:05 *sob* 00:06:53 -!- kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07:38 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:01 fe[nl]ix: how's life? 00:08:31 wow, you're *that* drunk :D 00:08:58 sush! 00:09:17 ith was a goood dinnerr! 00:09:31 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:28 (even sans irony) 00:11:22 -!- rswarbrick [rupert@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:12:00 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:12:56 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:13:46 oh crap. a semi friend of mine who used to live approx 50% of her life in the states has been denied entry in a way that means practically barring her from travel to states for the foreseeable future 00:14:00 -!- gruseom [~daniel@d206-75-29-17.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:08 CRAPOLA 00:14:13 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-44-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:14:35 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-36-82-251-54-4.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:02 damn the man. 00:15:30 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:15:49 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-57-178.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:16:32 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 00:20:10 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@142.244.153.17] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:23:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:28:05 nikodemus: they like to do that yes. 00:28:25 nikodemus: I mean, onto non-terrorist people. 00:28:54 nikodemus: perhaps if her father would call the closest USa embassy and report her... 00:29:45 -!- _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:30:14 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:30:26 konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 00:32:03 to quote her "As far as the US stuff goes, unless you happen to have the President?s private phone number there?s probably nothing you can do." 00:32:10 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:32:12 CRAPOLA 00:32:40 i think i need to catch some shuteye -- till laters 00:33:00 Same here. Good night. 00:33:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:38:13 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:39:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:40:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:47:31 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:48:37 -!- bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:49:44 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:24 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-11-44-179.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:51:50 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 00:53:39 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:58 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:15 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229179099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:59:39 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:27 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-115-25.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:02:04 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-115-25.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:49 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:01 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-115-25.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:05:20 a blog entry in progress here: http://www.ltn.lv/~jonis/blog/5-threads/article.html 01:05:47 any comments welcome, with patches on article.org file preferably :) 01:06:20 send them to jonis _the_@_sign_ latnet dot lv 01:06:45 otherwise good night 01:07:01 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:17 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:08:38 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 01:11:30 -!- jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:12:14 enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:13 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 01:15:25 tcr, therep 01:20:26 qamikaz [~alper@85.100.241.8] has joined #lisp 01:24:29 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:24:31 bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:54 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:27 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:11 -!- bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:34:20 To whom it might amuse (and who didn't already see it in #lispgames), a game in CL (using ECL) developed in six days for the 7DRL contest: http://funcallgames.com/laserspigot/ 01:35:17 *Xach* buys hefner a macbook 01:35:29 Who is funcall games? 01:35:44 but where's linux version? 01:36:01 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:06 austinh: By Funcall Games. Comments to ahefner@funcallgames.com 01:36:09 who do you think? :P 01:36:34 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:54 Congrats, hefner. That's great! 01:36:58 hefner: linux version! 01:37:31 stassats: haha, screw that. I developed it in Linux, isn't that enough? 01:38:09 i didn't plan to play anyway 01:38:33 of course not, because you're a pinko commie linux user. 01:38:46 *Xach* needs a video 01:39:01 *austinh* no longer has a working Windows machine 01:39:11 hefner, now where this puts you? :-) 01:39:39 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:53 <_3b> isn't there a linux binary in the zip file? 01:40:18 though, it works under wine 01:41:14 _3b: there was, I culled that when I rebuilt it to fix some bugs (I'd forgot to include the ecl.so anyway, and don't feel like rebooting to build a new linux binary, which probably won't work on anyone else's machine anyway) 01:41:46 <_3b> ah 01:42:20 does it run on non-ECL? 01:42:26 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:39 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:18 Ralith: not without replacing a bit of inline C code. 01:44:41 -!- mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:44:55 what's that for? 01:45:14 hefner, have you written up on your motivation to go for inline C, btw? 01:45:20 Ralith: talking to OpenGL and SDL. 01:45:35 I.e. mostly FFI pains? 01:46:49 mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:47:02 deepfire: I wrote up my approach in a message to the ECL list, several weeks ago. 01:47:42 Ah, now I remember that. 01:48:11 hefner: why not use cl-opengl and, say, glop? 01:48:28 why ride a unicycle when I have two good legs? 01:48:51 I don't quite follow; it seems to be that the native approach would be *easier* 01:49:25 borism [~boris@213-35-233-202-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 01:50:11 Native is an illusion. Anyway, what's more native, Lisp code that compiles to a call to a C function, or Lisp code that compiles to a call to a lisp function that calls a C function through an FFI library? 01:50:41 *austinh* is working on the 300 day Lisp game challenge 01:51:18 hefner: that's tangental. What turned you off from the usual approach? 01:51:37 Ralith, ugh, must be sorta obvious, FFI. 01:51:59 Ralith: wasn't necessary. doing it my way is so trivial that bringing in, say, cl-opengl, just seems silly. 01:52:28 hefner: ah, okay. Still, doing it your way ties you to ECL. 01:52:33 which strikes me as undesirable 01:52:52 <_3b> releases > portability :p 01:53:26 I could write an inline C library for SBCL, although it would be more limited. Doesn't bother me, though. 01:53:55 Why ECL, anyway? Easy/reliable windows deployment? 01:54:43 Pretty much. 01:55:45 Funny how much that counts for. ECL sucks huge in pretty much every other respect, but it gets that right. 01:57:41 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_name=31ffd3c41002131550t249a8c70qf02eccc867358e1f%40mail.gmail.com 01:58:00 That was hefner's mail on ecls-devel apropos his FFI approach. 01:58:12 Eh, that's not really fair of me. It's admirably conformant, for instance. Most CLs seem to be, these days, at least the ones that haven't been forgotten about. When I say it sucks, it's just that competing CL implementations set a high standard. 01:59:10 skv [~user@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:30 BTW, I wonder about piso's motivation for XCL, which AIUI he writes in C++ 01:59:50 Hmm, me too. 02:00:36 (to its credit, ECL also has an admirably small deployed footprint for a CL system) 02:01:39 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-twyvhidqjqtxolcb] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:03 kevin01123 [~user@2002:4751:4123:1234:221:6bff:fe01:8106] has joined #lisp 02:02:35 What's the difference between SBCL and Clisp? 02:03:13 kevin01123: they're different implementations with different design goals. 02:03:25 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:03:37 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-uuulphwqrizmvuhh] has joined #lisp 02:04:12 SBCL is a fork of a performance-oriented implementation that also strives to be easy to build and to respect the standard. 02:05:09 pkhuong: What are Clisps goals? 02:05:29 clisp is smaller, more easily ported to platforms and its REPL is usable without additional libraries. 02:06:47 SBCL is also used as a testbed for extensions to the standard by some people; more so than CLISP (which also has fairly awesome bignums and software floats) 02:06:47 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-115-25.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:34 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:05 -!- kevin01123 [~user@2002:4751:4123:1234:221:6bff:fe01:8106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:10 scotd [~scotd@70-6-101-249.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:12 Is there a good place to find out about optimizations that lisp implementations can do (I already know about tail calls)? 02:13:38 scotd: what are you trying to do? 02:15:01 CL implementations differ rather wildly in their performance profile. 02:15:02 deciding which language i want to write a simple compiler for... want to compile to C code 02:15:21 ya 02:15:59 scotd: for a *simple* compiler, things are rather different. 02:16:05 is there some similar equivalent to the graph reduction the haskell guys do? 02:16:35 no. Common lisp is a big language for a simple compiler though. 02:16:50 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 02:16:54 true, but the core of the language is simple 02:16:55 You might be more interested in an r4rs implementation. 02:17:54 scotd: really? 02:17:57 clhs 3.1.2.1.2.1 02:17:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm 02:20:06 Interesting, how define-compiler-macro cooperates with APPLY. 02:20:14 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:24 deepfire: and funcall. 02:20:34 i read the 1960 mcarthur paper... i mean that core :-) 02:20:52 scotd: you're not looking for common lisp then. 02:21:20 pkhuong, the point is, d-c-m -vs- funcall is explicitly mentioned in clhs, but not apply. 02:21:23 Scheme is much smaller and still well-suited to static analyses. 02:21:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:23:05 Looking up "static analyses" now, thanks 02:23:47 nunb [~nundan@122.161.39.65] has joined #lisp 02:24:09 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:22 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:48 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 02:29:47 -!- qamikaz [~alper@85.100.241.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:26 pkhuong, thanks. i think i found a good page: http://library.readscheme.org/page8.html 02:30:48 that is a good bibliography. 02:31:40 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:35:51 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:17 konr` [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 02:38:13 -!- konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:39:22 -!- enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:40:51 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:01 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:48:49 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:49:57 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:58:59 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:06 sebajara [~sebajara@71.92.102.18] has joined #lisp 03:02:32 rat? 03:02:34 rata? 03:05:24 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.161.39.65] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:16:43 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:24 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:19:40 <_rata_> hi seba 03:20:50 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 03:22:23 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 03:28:46 rlonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:18 entrosca [~entrosca@ip68-2-22-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:21 -!- scotd [~scotd@70-6-101-249.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:37:09 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37:12 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:06 champion_master_ [~Todd@76.14.50.221] has joined #lisp 03:42:36 -!- Madsy^ [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has quit [] 03:48:15 nunb [~nundan@122.161.39.65] has joined #lisp 03:52:39 03:53:49 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 03:53:55 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 03:53:55 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 04:00:14 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:02:05 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:03:38 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 04:05:56 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:07:46 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:09:15 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:44 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:14:49 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:26:31 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:31:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:40:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.152.69] has joined #lisp 04:45:12 nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 04:46:11 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:34 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:38 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:48:07 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:53:37 nus [nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 04:54:43 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:56:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:56:47 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:02 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661988-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 04:57:40 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 05:14:13 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.152.69] has left #lisp 05:18:35 konr`` [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 05:20:44 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:23:57 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-27-173.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:27:43 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:18 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:36:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:38:51 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 05:40:22 lukego_ [~lukegorri@xdsl-188-155-14-178.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 05:40:40 lukego__ [~lukegorri@xdsl-188-155-14-178.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 05:40:41 -!- lukego_ [~lukegorri@xdsl-188-155-14-178.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:19 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 05:41:28 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:42:18 nickjd [~76ecc527@gateway/web/freenode/x-kmuzvawyzqduecvo] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@xdsl-188-155-14-178.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:44:10 -!- lukego__ is now known as lukego 05:45:25 . 05:46:35 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:17 mooglenorph [~marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:02 Is there a format directive that is basically ~a, but doesn't consume? I want the same string multiple times in my output. 05:50:28 clhs ~* 05:50:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm 05:50:50 mooglenorph: you can modify which parameter is taken by format directive 05:51:21 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.161.39.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:52:07 stassats: thanks 05:55:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has joined #lisp 05:56:10 nunb [~nundan@122.162.226.148] has joined #lisp 06:02:00 -!- konr`` is now known as konr 06:07:19 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:10:54 sebajara_ [~475c6612@gateway/web/freenode/x-qwagtavnevyeejhj] has joined #lisp 06:11:07 -!- sebajara_ [~475c6612@gateway/web/freenode/x-qwagtavnevyeejhj] has quit [Client Quit] 06:12:02 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:22 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:13:14 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has 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timeout: 252 seconds] 10:47:50 jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has joined #lisp 10:54:42 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:56:19 How does one convince the web browser to send me a URL wich contains square brackets? 10:56:53 escape via %hh type encoding? 10:56:56 Hunchentoot can accumulate HTML parameters (is that what they are called) of the form bla[0], bla[1], etc into an array, but I can't seem to be able to generate them. 10:57:16 easyE: Ah, don't know about that. How does it work? 10:58:04 As far as I remember any string of the form %[0-9a-f][0-9a-f] is a hex escape for the ISO-8859-1 character. 10:58:26 look for "uri encoding" 10:58:33 easyE: Thanks! 10:58:49 Where/when this happens in the client <--> server "Stack" depends, but its somewhere to look. 11:01:24 easyE: OK, so if the server generates a string containing `[', the browser seems to turn that into %5B. Perhaps Hunchentoot turns that into [ again. 11:01:38 Yeah, that's the part of "depends" 11:01:52 I see. OK, I'll try it that way first. Thanks again. 11:01:57 Sure. 11:03:27 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.173.197.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:07:40 nunb [~nundan@122.173.230.97] has joined #lisp 11:08:03 easyE: It works! There was no need to do anything! You saved me a lot of wasted time! Thanks again! 11:08:34 Great. 11:09:31 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:10:05 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.28.101] has left #lisp 11:10:16 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:10:41 hoy 11:12:45 beach: decoding that is part of *required* httpd functionality 11:13:38 since it's also used to escape stuff in filesystem paths etc. 11:14:13 there are no filesystem paths in URLs to be honest 11:14:23 jdz: yes, but that's their origin :D 11:15:29 though I guess some httpds would really be happier with mod_rewrite equivalent in place of filesystem-based paths (like the ones for ITS) 11:21:21 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:29:13 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.173.230.97] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:35:33 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:36:07 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:16 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:55:28 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:52 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #lisp 11:57:32 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:11 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 12:06:49 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:07:09 -!- caljunior [~user@82-168-237-95.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:14:46 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-55-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:16:25 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-44-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:16:28 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:27:09 unicode [~user@95.214.8.78] has joined #lisp 12:29:43 aargh 12:29:59 slash_1 [~unknown@p5DD1D30F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:51 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C711.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:34:14 mega1 [~quassel@3e44a858.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:35:15 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-178-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:19 has anyone been following asdf recently? 12:36:27 *nikodemus* is bewildered 12:45:56 haha 12:46:09 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:53 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:48 i started looking into updating the sbcl copy... but i think i'll pass for now 12:56:05 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BFE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:21 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:28 carlocci [~nes@93.37.205.189] has joined #lisp 12:58:18 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:56 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:18 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:07:27 nikodemus: is it broken? 13:08:14 there are enough changes that i feel uneasy about updating it without (1) an urgent need to do so (2) a better understanding of those changes 13:10:28 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 13:10:36 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:10:55 (and i don't have the energy to dig into it right now) 13:12:49 Constantinegggfg [~uaconstan@balalayka.univ.kiev.ua] has joined #lisp 13:12:53 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 13:15:17 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-092-075-039-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:37 I think you should wait 13:16:48 there will be a 2.0 release in the weeks following 13:18:41 that doesn't make me any happier about updating it. i'm hoping Someone Else (tm) will take care of it 13:20:46 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:22:04 -!- Constantinegggfg [~uaconstan@balalayka.univ.kiev.ua] has quit [Quit: Constantinegggfg] 13:28:31 Constantinegggfg [~uaconstan@balalayka.univ.kiev.ua] has joined #lisp 13:35:07 orm [~a126ddab@gateway/web/freenode/x-jpdqzmjzfidrtklb] has joined #lisp 13:35:13 -!- orm [~a126ddab@gateway/web/freenode/x-jpdqzmjzfidrtklb] has left #lisp 13:36:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:20 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-215-93.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 13:43:46 if one declares a method INLINE, can I expect some kind of speedup? 13:43:55 s/one/I/ 13:44:01 in sbcl 13:44:19 no. 13:44:49 prxq: I'd guess it depends... 13:45:27 oh, methods can't be inlined properly? 13:52:13 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:53:28 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:58:33 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-182-118.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:00:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:35 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 14:01:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:51 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:03:45 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:06:46 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:09:07 so maybe an inline function with etypecase dispatch would be an option...? 14:09:22 prxq: etypecase dispatch? 14:10:38 or typecase, for emulating the generic functions. It is a limited number of cases, so that is not a completely raving mad idea. 14:11:04 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:08 obviously, i would not use a class then 14:11:12 make certain to benchmark whether typecase is actually faster than gf dispatch 14:11:23 sounds evil though, maybe if you can automate the generation of the cases, but otherwise it seems like a perfect place for errors :) 14:11:44 true indeed 14:11:51 whether faster or slower, blog the result, with pretty graphs 14:12:09 -!- Constantinegggfg [~uaconstan@balalayka.univ.kiev.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:18 we want graphs! 14:12:21 minion: shant 14:12:21 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``shant''. 14:12:27 oops :) 14:14:31 i'd hope that the compiler can prove a few of the branches away 14:15:10 lichtblau, typecase is still nested if's under the hood. 14:15:20 prxq: if it is really really important, you might be able to do it by fixing the possible classes and a bunch of compiler-macro-functions 14:16:14 lichtblau, a simple macroexpand-all shows that. So any kind of lookup is faster is there are many options. 14:18:40 lichtblau, (In theory you can implement it as efficiently as you like. So far they have focused on the 50 % that give 90% of the speed, basically unboxing, putting things on the stack instead of the heap and temporal (generational) garbage collecting) 14:19:54 madnificent: that is actually doable 14:20:27 lichtblau, CLOS is probably what needs optimation the most now in SBCL 14:21:09 prxq: if it is important enough, then it is possible. I wonder if you could make a portable CLOS extension to cope with this sort of use-case 14:25:27 Younder: iirc, it is already heavily optimized. No? 14:25:33 I have no idea what Younder is talking about, but let me state that I wasn't referring to lookup speed as such, but rather to the overall change in performance achieved by having dispatch _and_ clause forms inline, as discussed by prxq. 14:26:25 bbiah 14:28:16 prxq, a bit, but bechmars show SBCL's implementation to be 2-20 times slower than the implentaion of LispWorks and AllegroCL 14:28:29 i'd like to optimize generic arithmetic like the one here: www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/overload-AD.pdf 14:28:33 s/of/in/ 14:28:39 i see 14:32:22 prxq: what's wrong with shadowing? 14:33:05 which benchmark? certainly not cl-bench, since the only clos benchmark where SBCL loses by a factor of 20 in cl-bench is a load time benchmark, not a run time benchmark, and arguably a correctness issue in the other lisps. 14:33:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:15 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:35:38 If you really want something sealing, I think there's a fork of somewhere around dwim.hu. 14:35:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:04 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:37 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:45:16 Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.130.24] has joined #lisp 14:53:02 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-76-231.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:50 *p_l* wonders possibility of "frozing" CLOS during save-lisp-and-die 14:54:14 with slightly more work than just sealing classes (like proper inlining of methods) 14:54:25 lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 -!- lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:57:22 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:01:46 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-45-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:07:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:29 common-lisp-controller_6.18_all.deb is not compatible with sbcl 1.3.36. What version of common-lisp-controller _is_ compatible? 15:09:29 maybe whatever the hell was in Gentoo at some point. Though it actually was more of ASDF-Binary-Locations and asdf-install 15:14:07 p_l: s/frozing/freezing/? 15:14:29 p_l, I can't use stumpwm with ubuntu 9.10, I think because of this incompatibility. 15:14:40 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:15:15 lat_: you might see it as a non solution, but try ccl 15:15:33 or stop using common lisp controller? 15:15:47 tic: _and_ 15:15:50 *tic* uses StumpWM in ubuntu 9.10... 15:17:06 Does tic use sbcl 1.0.36? 15:17:29 madnificent: yeah. Freezing. Kinda misspelled due to switching from "frozen" to "freezing" at the last moment 15:20:35 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:20:45 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:22:21 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:25 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:29 pkhuong: noting's wrong with shadowing. That's exactly what that stuff does. 15:24:36 lat_, 10.0.32 15:24:41 pkhuong: what's that a fork of? 15:25:13 ah, you have some fork of that file somewhere around dwim.hu; ok. 15:25:27 binarycodes [~Sujoy@59.93.219.245] has joined #lisp 15:27:25 -!- migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:27:44 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:28:36 Why is Ubuntu generally several versions behind in all the software I need the most? That is my main criticism of Ubuntu. For instance sbcl is version 1..0.29 on Ubuntu's Synaptic package manager. 15:29:00 binaryco1es [~Sujoy@59.93.211.193] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 -!- binarycodes [~Sujoy@59.93.219.245] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:29:48 -!- binaryco1es is now known as binarycodes 15:30:36 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:04 prxq: why do you need gfs then? 15:33:23 pkhuong: that package is based on redefining +, -, *, etc. as generic functions, which the operate on numbers or on taylor polynomials, or on something else entirely 15:33:33 they are shadowed first. 15:33:54 Sounds like premature generalisation. 15:34:02 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:33 pkhuong: rather, the opposite of premature optimization, in this case. 15:35:21 it works well, and is not that bad speedwise. I thought maybe once could so some simple things to optimize it. But that does not seem to be the case. 15:35:41 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:36:17 and how many methods have you defined on your gfs? Is it hard for you to tell ahead of time which methods will potentially be invoked at each call site? 15:36:44 no 15:37:07 two types of object, actually. Number, and a class called df. 15:37:09 lat_: partially inherited from Debian? Back when I used Debian (v3.0), if you wanted current, you needed unstable. 15:37:21 then why do you use generic functions? 15:37:22 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 15:38:00 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:38:07 And even with numbers, do you really ever want to use anything but doubles or pairs of doubles? 15:38:49 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:41:13 p_l, you mean unstable version of common-lisp-controller? 15:41:23 lat_: no, unstable branch of distro 15:42:32 -!- binarycodes [~Sujoy@59.93.211.193] has left #lisp 15:42:34 btw, regarding sealing/freezing... what if you froze the whole image? If you don't need a working EVAL and COMPILE, or what is needed is minimalised, couldn't all macros be dropped from final image? Maybe even if necessary compiler parts for PCL aren't dropped? 15:44:07 there's a lot of things one could do by not respecting the standard and substituting a long list of caveats. 15:45:36 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:02 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:11 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BFE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:10 -!- champion_master_ [~Todd@76.14.50.221] has left #lisp 15:48:13 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:48:38 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BFE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:45 pkhuong: just thinking about it, especially since I recall some notes from LW docs that spoken about such things in their image dumper. 15:48:57 though AFAIK it was mostly related to CLOS 15:49:20 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:09 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:39 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:56:42 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:57:53 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:00:02 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:32 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:01:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:02:01 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 16:02:06 hello 16:02:54 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:55 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:44 -!- brushie [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:22 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:50 billstclair [~billstcla@209.177.151.180] has joined #lisp 16:08:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@209.177.151.180] has quit [Changing host] 16:08:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:12 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:13 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:20:05 migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:58 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:58 freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.68.52] has joined #lisp 16:26:15 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:55 -!- migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:30:54 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:31:00 jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 brushie [~brushie@ram94-7-82-232-189-35.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:35 fe[nl]ix: hello 16:40:38 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:41:45 any ideas on allegrograph pricing? 16:43:02 -!- goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:26 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has joined #lisp 16:43:31 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:43:53 madnificent, yes, about 8000$ for a licence plus royalties on verything you sell 16:44:01 i "talked" to franz about that a few years ago and it was pretty expensive then. but it depends on what you are gonna do with it. 16:44:14 Younder: you're serious, right? 16:44:16 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:20 madnificent, there is a cheap student edition thougn (300$ I think) 16:44:25 madnificent, oh yes. 16:44:29 goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:44 ok 16:45:14 there probably are other performant triple stores 16:46:01 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:46:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:01 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:47 TR2N [email@89.180.128.198] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 that they have been able to keep that kind of pricing up for so long is really remarkable 16:52:13 hehe. $8000 sounds like a full kit for an enterprise Windows programmer, probably including the machine 16:52:20 (assuming windows tools) 16:52:27 s/windows/microsoft/ 16:52:48 building a triple store is one thing. implementing querying capabilities and all the rest is another 16:53:08 p_j, they appeal mostly to old customers, the type's that bought the lisp machines 16:53:43 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:54:32 wikipedia says that allegrograph is written in java 16:54:34 Younder: the funny thing is that for $8000, you can get a lisp machine that would probably run for several people at once (VLM2 on a late model Alpha?) 16:54:46 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:54:47 p_j, what they offer are good libraries and good service. If your library needs something and it's not they will implement it. It's like having a extra man in that way. 16:55:13 Younder: yeah. btw, it's p_l, not p_j. Papa Underscore Lima. 16:55:22 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:55:24 *p_l* wonders what fonts people use for irc. 16:55:46 p_l, sorry 16:57:29 btw, MSDN Premium + VSTS = 10.5k USD + 3.5k/year for renewals 17:01:09 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:13 hi LiamH 17:01:32 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:06:25 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:08:27 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:49 I don't think $8000 is too much for somewhat larger companies. Even for relatively small ones. If you get good support from it, and software which you need is written in it, then you'll likely pay that 17:09:16 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066172.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 17:10:20 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:28 no. 8 grand is nothing in some niches. most of our oracle customers pays orders of magnitude more. franz is pretty much like oracle for the lisp world. 17:11:36 lpolzer [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:03 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:43 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:47 Algid [~coderaven@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:14 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:22 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@g230133017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:22 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-141.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:23:17 -!- lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:31 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.68.52] has left #lisp 17:27:14 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:54 madnificent: don't listen to anybody here, especially not fucking Younder... talk to franz sales, not #lisp. 17:30:02 madnificent: (just reading scrollback and seeing a _lot_ of mis-information 17:30:04 ) 17:30:23 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:59 |dvl| [~didier@bob75-9-88-181-0-232.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:06 -!- |dvl| [~didier@bob75-9-88-181-0-232.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:31:14 drewc: I was just wondering, I'm not really interested in paying for it right now 17:31:36 madnificent: are you interested in using it? Have you talked to Franz? 17:32:40 I'm interested in triple stores, it is vaguely related to a presentation I'll be giving on monday. I always like to sneak in a reference to common lisp somewhere :) 17:33:10 drewc: if I'm ever seriously interested in using such a store, I'll certainly be talking to them instead of #lisp ;) 17:34:18 madnificent: well, when it comes to licensing, i've always found Franz to be extremely reasonable, and fees for AG are between FREE and FIRST-BORN-SON .. anybody who gives you exact numbers is full of shite or confused :) 17:35:18 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:34 *p_l* only played with numbers, not actual numbers for AG 17:35:37 I was just trying to get an idea on the pricing 17:36:50 Quotes "à la tête du" client are a very strong sale disincentive... 17:37:40 On the other hand, it's understandable that you don't publish a pre-determined price when you expect only a very limited number of sales. 17:37:48 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37:48 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 17:38:15 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 *p_l* had just seen an over 1k employee company operating through odesk o_O 17:39:34 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:40:33 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:40:41 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 17:40:46 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:42:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 17:44:40 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.128.223] has joined #lisp 17:44:43 -!- Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.130.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:46:17 nikodemus: ping 17:46:21 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:53 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-047.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:48:41 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:07 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:54:03 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:55:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.118.222] has joined #lisp 17:58:24 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 18:00:39 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 18:05:12 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:23 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-128.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:03 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082D1D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:27 *sigh* Writing an information system is indeed tedious. 18:11:52 But I am learning something about HTML and Web programming at the same time, so that's good. 18:12:09 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082D591.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:12:45 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:43 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:13:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.93.1] 18:13:53 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 nunb [~nundan@122.173.230.97] has joined #lisp 18:15:35 Plus, it's a lot less tedious than writing it in some combination of PHP, Javascript, and a relational database. 18:16:35 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:17:20 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:18:02 Also, as usual, I hope to gain some experience that might be publishable, or at least useful in my teaching. 18:18:25 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:47 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.173.230.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:45 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:35 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:28:57 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:48 -!- kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:32:56 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 gigamonk` [~gigamonke@adsl-99-62-75-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:09 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:35:35 It turns out that a complete checkpoint of the department of CS (at this time) is less than 1Mbyte using just ordinary print-object extensions, and when compressed it's less than 30kbytes. 18:35:51 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:09 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-irdofaeiblczeyad] has joined #lisp 18:36:19 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-179-45-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:36:34 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:36:59 This means that if I do a complete checkpoint after every modification, I will have no problem with disk space for months. 18:37:33 beach: are there extensions for objects to make them automagically convertable to and from strings? 18:38:12 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:41:20 madnificent: Not automatically, but when I display a selection box for instance, I display some unique name that will serve that purpose. 18:43:42 madnificent: It makes me nervous to have to use the printed representation of things, but I think that's what web-programming is about. 18:43:52 beach: that depends. 18:44:12 beach: is it intented for the wider web, or is it an application that people log into, with sessions etc? 18:44:26 drewc: The latter. 18:44:46 beach: then i think passing a printed representation is the wrong way to go 18:45:30 drewc: I am sure it is. 18:45:35 drewc: I already use a secure notion of session (I think hunchentoot already provides that, but I didn't bother to figure out how it works). 18:45:45 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:45 *madnificent* builds a display through object dispatch. Every object shows itself in a pretty fashion 18:46:19 ok, so the trick is callbacks 18:46:35 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:46:53 drewc: I can see how to do that, but to be more modular, I am trying to emulate CLIM presentation types. 18:46:55 rather than pass objects as strings, pass a number/string that refers to a function in a hash table somewhere 18:47:17 drewc: Right, I do that for almost everything else. 18:47:43 drewc: But for forms, I didn't bother. Perhaps I should have. 18:48:08 it's the better way IMO. 18:48:10 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:52 drewc: I am sure you are right. I'll just make sure every table of things has an associated hash table with some unique identifiers. 18:49:32 Anyway, I am having fun, learning how to get around the limitations of web programming. 18:49:59 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:33 :) 18:51:32 that pretty much describes web application programming :). A nice framework helps... I couldn't have delivered most of my apps in the time i did if UCW didn't do 70% of the work for me. 18:53:52 drewc: I see what you mean. 18:54:45 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:54:51 I think I need some time to discover what the problems with web programming are in order to figure out what kind of functionalities I need from a web framwork. 18:56:17 beach: users are 18:56:32 But then, that's OK. One of my colleagues once described the job of a researcher to be "to learn", as opposed to "to produce" or to "distribute". I like that description. 18:56:50 having said that, i've moved away from frameworks... i'm now into cohesive collections of small single-purpose libraries. They might amount to the same thing in the end, but in the middle where it matters there is a big difference. 18:56:50 madnificent: They are what? 18:56:55 beach: your main problem 18:57:14 ;) 18:57:21 madnificent: Ah, yes. I am lucky this time though, because the users are CS people like me. 18:57:59 *beach* needs to spend time with his (arguably small) family. 18:58:12 I'll be back later 18:58:18 drewc: ah, I like that! The users of the framework should be able to pick the things they want. (and I could steal more from your work) 18:58:22 beach: have fun! 18:59:53 madnificent: right... the 'framework' itself is only 'glue' that merges various completely independent parts. 19:00:35 Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:02 my dispacther has nothing to do with web programming... my request-context code knows nothing of dispatching... but a third library knows them both, and adds syntax for pattern matching of web requests... 19:01:32 yet another library deals with marshalling/unmarshalling parameters, 19:01:38 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:47 another for generating HTML ... 19:02:11 put those last two together and you get a forms library... add that as a handler to the first and you are starting to get a framework... 19:02:31 continuations and validation are also libraries etc. 19:04:57 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 *madnificent* is particularly happy with his html library 19:09:06 meh, i've been using yaclml for 6 years or so, never needed anything else. It's a solved problem for me. 19:11:07 you need to run yaclml in a with-output-to-string, right? 19:11:26 no 19:11:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:12:21 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 19:12:25 how do you write the attributes of a tag? (>:div :class "foo" "content") ? 19:13:06 in my use, yaclml outputs to a stream. If the response has not been sent, that stream is a buffered output stream. If the response has been sent, it's a bivalent stream that represents the actual http stream. 19:13:12 there are no strings involved. 19:13:35 yeah, only the package is named "<" 19:13:54 (<:div :class "foo content" 19:13:57 -!- BrianRice [~briantric@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 19:14:05 oh yeah, right... 19:14:06 they are keywords and parsed as such 19:14:29 well, roughly the same as what I built then. Didn't know it existed 19:15:11 re-inventing the wheel is a tradition in lisp web programming. 19:15:36 *drewc* avoided that for the most part, UCW has like 16 wheels 19:15:41 I wasn't trying to, tbh... I actually searched for something that looked the way I wanted to have it, but it seems yaclml didn't cross my path back then 19:16:18 i mentioned it to you months ago when you were describing what you wanted from an html library... shall i find the logs? :P 19:16:55 I thought I looked at all those described at http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20Markup%20Languages 19:17:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.118.222] has left #lisp 19:17:05 perhaps I misread something 19:17:43 doesn't really matter, I guess 19:17:55 nope, you learned something didn't you? 19:18:04 I have learned to use compiler-macro-functions because of it, so it's been a good time 19:18:30 oh... you used compiler macros did you? see, that's another approach i've considered myself. 19:18:48 only for those things that could be precompiled, it's fairly straightforward 19:19:03 so your tags are functions then? 19:19:14 kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 19:21:57 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:23:42 no, the tags are keywords 19:23:45 well 19:23:46 ahm 19:24:07 if you call html a tag, then yes (and you probably do) 19:24:13 but the attributes are keywords 19:25:05 yeah, i mean tags... in (div :class "foo"), #'div is a function? 19:25:12 yes 19:25:57 with &rest though, not really &key ya? 19:26:10 if you would've written that, the compiler would likely have converted it to "
" 19:26:16 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:26:54 actually, I'm still in doubt. I think I want to add some rudimentary syntax checks. In case I misspell a keyword 19:27:41 oh, you're just doing a syntax conversion... you should check how yaclml does it. 19:28:06 I should do a lot of things 19:28:16 what do you use for CSS? 19:28:23 CSS 19:28:46 :( 19:28:48 i did at one point use the CSS compiler in parenscript 19:29:16 not sure if such a thing still exists, i'm not using parenscript much these days either... don't like the direction they took 19:29:51 -!- skv [~user@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:29:51 for some reason, I disliked the syntax they use for CSS. (but it still exists, it's an external library though) 19:30:06 i wasn't a big fan either, probably why i just use css 19:30:22 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:44 i tend to do most of my css work 'live' in firefox, so the round trip would be something i need. 19:31:01 nobody offers that AFAIK 19:31:12 my cl-org-mode parser will handle css fine... hmmm 19:31:12 the round trip? 19:31:18 I mean, how would you prefer to work? 19:32:53 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:21 do you have a use-case description or something like that? 19:33:31 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:51 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:59 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 19:34:32 hi 19:34:38 madnificent: if you said anything after i did, i missed it :) 19:34:43 hey Fare 19:35:37 drewc: do you have a use-case describing how you would like a CSS system to work? Especially because I can't figure out how you work right now 19:36:27 madnificent: i want PRINT-CSS and READ-CSS to work with a CSS style external representation, and a sexp based internal representation 19:37:32 READ-CSS is the step most libraries are missing. 19:37:50 <_3b> integration with something like mozrepl would be nice too :p 19:37:52 drewc: that would work for most part, but I don't see it working perfectly in both directions. One of the reasons for having CSS in CL, would be to have some CSS generated (for other CSS it would obviously be possible) 19:38:13 drewc: and would you then be able to integrate it with 19:38:24 madnificent: why would it not work perfectly? the syntax of CSS is well defined. 19:38:24 fe[nl]ix, ping 19:38:48 *_3b* interpreted some of the need for being able to READ css as a lack of something like mozrepl integration 19:39:08 drewc: for the reason that it would not be able to recognize the functions which you've defined from the generated CSS... 19:39:08 _3b: not just mozrepl, but yeah.. external tools 19:39:14 <_3b> but without it, editing css directly in browser > nice syntax 19:39:24 Sonja [~sonjaaa@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 hi 19:40:15 madnificent: that's a non-issue as well.. they both will parse down to the same sexp. 19:40:53 madnificent: it's meant for interactive development, not as a silver bullet solution. 19:41:14 and, if my css compiler is smart enough, then it's actually quite possible. 19:41:38 drewc: yes, they would... but it would be imperfect. You'd first generate the cool-widget css generating function, then read it again and get a (not the) sexp to get that widget 19:41:53 drewc: so you're going to build it? :D 19:42:06 Sonja: hello. Are you new here? 19:42:33 i started on one as part of the book i was writing, but that's been sidetracked 19:42:43 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 19:43:04 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:44:01 I've written some preliminary documentation on one, but any lispy syntax I try to figure out gives me a fairly long expression 19:44:30 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:31 and? if the goal were reducing verbosity, sexp is probably not the best syntax :) 19:44:38 what does "non-linear" mean in relation to languages like lisp 19:44:59 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 19:45:10 Sonja: in what context? 19:45:38 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 19:46:18 drewc: not always, but it is in the case of css. Still, I feel like I might be missing out somewhere (the higher abstraction would be the gain, the longer initial syntax the loss) 19:47:31 algokick [~algokick@100.133.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:33 Sonja: Where did you see that? 19:48:00 madnificent: verbosity is not always a negative... it's often easier to read something that has not elided all the details 19:48:36 madnificent: of course, especially when the reader is a compiler :) 19:49:12 drewc: true, yet in the case of CSS, I found it to be quite cumbersome. The same thing goes with parenscript. I really like the fact that I can generate javascript from lisp, but without the js-macros it gets complicated fairly quickly. 19:49:59 i think parenscript is the wrong solution. I'd rather a very 1-> mapping of sexp->js 19:50:17 or, a lisp-like that compiles to javascript. not a mix of the two. 19:50:20 or a lisp _in_ javascript :) 19:50:21 19:51:00 an certainly not a common lisp.. .i do not need common lisp in the browser, and i don't need the questionable semantics a cl->js compiler is going to end up with. 19:51:29 scheme has a lot of parentheses 19:51:32 drewc: NaCl ;) 19:51:43 pkhuong: NaCl? 19:51:46 Sonja: Your point being? 19:52:02 i'm trying to understand stuff 19:52:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 19:52:11 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:41 Sonja: Then ask questions rather than emitting random opinions that may or may not be relevant. 19:53:17 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:49 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:54:21 pkhuong: the emacs CL? 19:55:22 i have never heard it called NaCL before... <----what a n00b 19:55:55 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:59 Hello all. 19:56:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:37 hi nyef 19:56:42 g'day nyef 19:57:26 Sonja: I bet you that if we write programs to do the same thing in Lisp and Java, the Lisp program will have fewer parentheses 19:57:33 ok my question is: is there a version of scheme that is as elegant, but is easier to visually parse then all the parentheses? 19:57:40 maybe something that looks like a mindmap cloud 19:57:55 oops i meant than, not then 19:58:01 I have a new computer now, and it only took me a couple of days to get the kernel mostly sorted, but I'm still without X and without my data. :-/ 19:58:08 fe[nl]ix, does iolib have support for sigchild in the event loop yet (through signalfd or emulated equivalent) 19:58:14 Sonja: hint: there are no parenthesis 19:58:20 Fare: no 19:58:34 konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 19:58:53 Sonja, plenty of people have written infix syntaxes for Scheme. None has taken hold, but you can download one or the other. 19:58:59 no parentheses where? 19:59:02 Fare: the event loop is very low on my priority list ATM 19:59:19 Sonja: you can visualise in many ways. The syntax with the parens prooved to be handy. At first it looks a bit messy (be sure to use an editor that does indentation for you!), but it grows on you. The parens are a far simpler solution that the syntax C/Java force upon you 19:59:20 infix means python-style space syntax? 19:59:21 fe[nl]ix, how will your server handle sigchild? 19:59:28 Sonja: where you see parenthesis, lispers see a tree. 19:59:31 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066172.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:59:39 Sonja, that would be inbroken, not infix 19:59:41 nyef: ouch 19:59:58 yeah that's why i was thinking of a mindmap... the tree is more clearly laid out than trying to parse it by counting parentheses 20:00:07 Sonja: it's like complaining about the punctuation in natural language... if you know how to read you don't notice it. 20:00:11 Sonja: infix is 1 + 1 + 2; the operator is in the middle. Lisp is prefix (+ 1 1 2) 20:00:27 in PLT Scheme, you can use square or curly braces instead of parens 20:00:29 is there a name of a popular infix syntax for scheme? 20:00:32 Sonja: don't count parenthesis, look at the indentation. 20:00:41 Sonja: no, there is no popular infix syntax 20:00:43 Fare: being written in C and single-threaded, it will use signal handlers as usual 20:00:45 dabr [~dabr@78-180.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:00:51 is there a version of scheme that uses indentation instead of parentheses? 20:00:59 fe[nl]ix, oh, ok. 20:01:17 Sonja: lisp has been around for 50+ years, you are not the first to think of this, but yet none of these solutions are popular... can you think why that may be? 20:01:19 Sonja, there probably is. Ask on #scheme. 20:01:24 Sonja: your editor should indent your code based on your parentheses (thus giving you the same thing, just ask it to indent) 20:01:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066174.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 20:01:43 Sonja, I remember having seen tens of infix syntax modules for CL or Scheme pass by. 20:01:48 can i tnk of why that may be? because if it ain't broke, don't fix it? :) 20:01:58 Is it bad that I saw "in PLT Scheme, ..." and thought "in Soviet Russia, ..."? 20:01:58 Sonja: perhaps there is a significant advantage to the sexp based syntax? 20:02:06 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:23 Sonja: maybe it's even, _gasp_, easier to read! :) 20:02:38 well somebody said "look at the indent, not the parentheses" 20:02:48 Sonja: that'd be me probably 20:02:50 so i was wondering, what if we used indent instead of parentheses 20:02:58 would it be more readable? 20:03:01 Sonja: no 20:03:08 Sonja: let the editor do the indentation for you, then it is clear to see what matches where 20:03:20 Sonja, please try it, by all means. 20:03:24 Sonja: the indentation is implied by the nesting of the parenthesis 20:03:26 okay 20:03:31 i have to play around in notepad++ 20:03:53 Sonja: there is a standard function that takes a SEXP and returns a nicely indented printed representation of it. 20:03:54 Sonja, but yes, you'll want to write not only the parser, but also the pretty-printer, and the emacs mode 20:04:09 Sonja: so why would you want to indent manually? 20:04:38 Sonja: the reason for not doing everything in indentation is that the simplest things would require more than one line (and that makes your code less easy to read). Try the lisp way for some time, then try to switch to an alternative syntax for it (or write one yourself, it's fairly simple, yet not much fun). 20:04:44 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05:01 Sonja: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-49/srfi-49.html 20:05:40 Sonja: use an editor that can auto-indent lisp-code. You really really really really want that 20:06:08 what's a good one for windoze? 20:06:45 lispworks trial edition for lisp... no idea for scheme 20:07:21 emacs runs on windows too, no? It isn't the most newcomer-user-friendly though 20:07:27 Sonja: Not to kick off a flame war, but there _is_ a version of emacs for Windows. 20:07:34 madnificent read my mind. 20:07:36 *drewc* uses emacs on windows 20:07:48 right now i use notepad++ 20:07:54 in linux mint i use gedit 20:08:10 I'd be seriously suprised if notepad++ didn't have a Lisp mode. 20:08:21 well, that's definitely a way to make your lot more challenging. 20:08:24 but really, then Sonja is going to come back whining about emacs... so i preemtively struck .. lw is good enough :) 20:08:49 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:22 parens and non-standard keys.. and chording! :) 20:09:33 OH MY 20:09:45 minion: chant! 20:09:45 MORE CHALLENGING 20:10:00 *madnificent* finds drewc's advise to be quite good. 20:10:06 I'd go for emacs on the long run though 20:10:07 drscheme is a nice environment for plt/mzscheme 20:10:17 Indeed it is. 20:10:19 drscheme is teh cool... does it run in windows? 20:10:20 Sonja: Your questions are tiresome. You can resume them like this: "Given that I am using a broken OS and that I don't want to learn to be efficent, what should I do". The anwer is: "use a non-broken OS, and learn to be efficient". 20:10:28 I believe it does 20:10:40 Yup. 20:10:41 It does. 20:10:50 well there you go... and #scheme is thataway ----> 20:11:04 so i should switch from windows xp to linux mint? 20:11:07 or mac? 20:11:11 yes 20:11:19 Use whatever you're more efficient on. 20:11:34 But if you're learning, you'll likely be more efficient on Linux or Mac or ANYTHING BUT WINDOWS. 20:11:40 linux is broken though. it always has problems with hardware drivers and you end up having to compile things and build things yourself 20:11:54 i tend to flip back and forth between winxp and linux mint 20:12:06 for example my netbook hangs when i go in sleep mode in linux mint 20:12:07 Sonja: it is you who are broken, your cup is too full. 20:12:20 i have to force it to shutdown 20:12:24 by pressing down the power key 20:12:36 <_rata_> Sonja: don't use linux mint then 20:12:38 drewc: :) 20:12:39 what OS you use is offtopic for this channel. 20:12:49 what OS do you recommend then? :) 20:12:57 Sonja: this is a channel about lisp, lets talk about lisp 20:13:00 most of the people here use *nix variants. 20:13:03 mostly linux. 20:13:09 Sonja: On topic: The Lisp Machine OS! 20:13:14 Fade: I think that's true for freenode. 20:13:47 <_rata_> Sonja: I prefer ArchLinux, but I recommend you to try as many as you can and choose by yourself 20:13:53 I'd be intersting to see /ctcp version stats. 20:14:19 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:22 lisp people... lisp 20:14:46 amen 20:15:13 There are plenty of religious arguments to be made in Lisp. 20:15:18 No need to bring OSes into it. :-) 20:15:33 neat, arch linux http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/MSI_Wind_U100 20:15:34 *drewc* is writing hairy hairy macros and remembering why he love/hates defmacro 20:15:54 FTW! 20:16:17 can i start the 'macros are evil' debate? 20:16:39 *algokick* pulls up a chair and some microwave popcorn. 20:16:41 Err. 20:16:43 Macros are evil because paul graham like them. 20:16:47 I doubt anybody would believe you claimed they were. :) 20:16:48 if i didn't have them, i have a perfectly reasonable functional interface to all this that i would be using. 20:16:49 *algokick* makes some microwave popcorn while the argument gets going. 20:17:41 instead, i'm deep in hairy lambda-list parsing with diabetic amounts of syntactic sugar 20:17:52 Sonja: I have used Ubuntu GNU/Linux for many years now, and I am very happy with it. 20:18:19 yeah linux mint is a version of ubuntu with all the right codecs ubuntu doesn't include 20:18:37 I'm pretty sure they're included in Ubuntu. 20:18:48 Anyway, I'm going to refrain from continuing this thread. 20:19:00 okay i'll leave #lisp for nao 20:19:01 :) 20:19:04 -!- Sonja [~sonjaaa@76-10-173-74.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 20:20:07 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:51 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:22:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:42 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:23:31 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:57 -!- dabr [~dabr@78-180.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:22 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:26:46 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:20 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:30:23 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:55 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:27 ikki [~ikki@189.247.108.176] has joined #lisp 20:32:57 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-215-93.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:47 syamajala [~syamajala@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:39 You guys are funny. "Oh crap, the OS talk is going to drown out the Lisp Talk. Stop talking about OSes!" So the OS talk stops and...silence :) 20:34:59 <_3b> parolang: some of us prefer silence to noise 20:35:08 parolang: beautiful silence 20:35:29 <------ #lispcafe is thataway :P 20:35:31 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:35:31 Okay...good point. I just thought it was funny :) 20:36:39 Silence doesn't really exist. Ask John Cage. 20:36:57 Signalling HEAP-EXHAUSTED in a WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS. that's no good. 20:38:32 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:57 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066174.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:20 lispm [~joswig@g224126158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:53 silence is copyrighted 20:45:07 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:22 (sleep 100) 20:45:47 <_rata_> somebody has a link to a website developed with UCW? 20:46:50 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:53 _rata_: wiki.alu.org is UCW ,though not very exciting. 20:47:25 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:47:40 besides that, most UCW apps are internal or proprietary... it's not really for making 'web sites' per se. 20:48:33 <_rata_> ahh ok 20:48:41 <_rata_> thanks, drewc 20:48:55 no worries, i know a little bit about UCW and i'm happy to share :) 20:50:33 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:50:43 Fare: I'm given to understand that only specific lengths of silence are copyrighted. 20:55:04 drewc, am I remembering correctly that you've described UCW as a framework for building applications which just happen to have a web interface? or something like that? 20:55:49 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:10 -!- Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 20:58:17 _rata_, take a look a this other UCW site: http://www.bees-kneesfilms.com 21:02:30 Adlai: yeah, really UCW tries its best to pretend the whole web thing isn't there at all. 21:02:47 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:23 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:10 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-022-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:39 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:59 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:07:06 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:35 <_rata_> thanks, ikki 21:09:55 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:10:13 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:23 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:57 _rata_, welcome 21:14:16 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:19:06 _rata_, you could try with this on goggle search box: filetype:ucw 21:22:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:13 <_rata_> ohh thanks ikki, i have found some good examples :) 21:23:54 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:24:20 _rata_, great :) 21:25:36 -!- frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:10 better yet, http://www.google.com/codesearch?as_q=ucw&as_lang=lisp 21:33:08 nus [nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 21:34:39 -!- tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: tltstc`] 21:35:04 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:29 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:38:40 <_rata_> thanks fusss, that yield much more results :) 21:39:45 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:50 <_rata_> http://ucw2.opopop.net/example/hello.ucw 21:41:14 <_rata_> is it so big (or do you say long?) a program to make a hello world webpage in UCW? 21:42:17 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:37 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:49 wouldn't win the Arc challenge 21:43:17 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:09 fusss, nice :) 21:45:27 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:32 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 *_3b* suspects UCW has the common CL property of being verbose for trivial stuff, but growing more slowly than other options 21:47:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:55 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:30 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:48:43 _3b: that is indeed true. IMO, ucw is somewhat over-engineered, but for the complex cases it covers, there's not better option. yet. 21:48:50 no better* 21:49:15 <_3b> right, and you can build a 'trivial page' lib on top of it if you need to make lots of those :) 21:49:30 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:28 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:52:36 every implementation of channels I've run into (except for chanl) uses a global lock to synchronize channel interactions (plan 9, newsqueak, Go, CSP and Calispel for CL...). I've been looking at PLT's implementation... and I think they also use the damn global lock :\ 21:53:16 the oldest example of actual code I found (in plan 9) had a big fat TODO item near the top saying "This global lock is kind of ugly. cba to fix it yet. Do this later." 21:53:22 _3b: yeah. I've gone the other way... i build most of what UCW offers on a 'trivial page' lib. 21:53:27 it's been a while :\ 21:53:45 _3b: almost ready for wider release, watch this channel for details! :P 21:54:01 <_3b> _rata_: note that close to 1/3 of that is setting up a server, and another third is defining an 'application', and only the last 2 forms are the actual 'page' stuff (and that could be abstracted a bit more so that you needed a line or 2 to define another 'static line of text' page) 21:55:20 <_3b> drewc: cool, i tried poking at ucw/lol for a bit the other day, but ended up giving up and just doing cheesy rpc calls from JS :) 21:55:38 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:54 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:56:53 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:31 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:58:40 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 21:59:15 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:15 *drewc* is having connection problems today 21:59:25 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-99-91-131-158.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:56 drewc: me too :) 22:01:10 <_rata_> _3b: yeah. i noted that only the last part was actually the page stuff, but looking at that file as an example make me think UCW is difficult to use 22:01:41 <_3b> _rata_: not really, just difficult to figure out, since there isn't too much simple tutorial stuff around :) 22:02:03 difficult to learn perhaps, but easy to learn. 22:02:21 <_3b> _rata_: drewc is pretty good about helping people that want to use it though, so that isn't as much of an obstacle as it could be 22:02:22 if you want easy to learn and hard to use, #php is over there ---> 22:02:42 drewc: php isn't easy to learn 22:02:51 <_rata_> hahahahaha ok 22:03:09 drewc: many people may find it easy to get used to it, as they know some of the syntax already... but it is a pita to learn imho 22:03:14 madnificent: i picked up php/fi in approx 5 minutes 22:03:58 because you already knew how constructs like if etc worked from other languages... but given the fact that you still need to learn the syntax... 22:04:35 yes, i'm not talking about non-programmers learning to program, i'm talking about programmers picking up a language. 22:04:37 <_rata_> i gotta go guys... see you later 22:05:11 have fun _rata_ 22:05:24 syntax is pretty easy for most languages... i program in SQL, ksh and lisp on a regular basis and don't have too much trouble remembering syntax .. shell of course being the crazy one. 22:05:24 <_rata_> thanks :) 22:05:32 cheers _rata_ :) 22:06:01 <_rata_> cheers drewc 22:06:19 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-irdofaeiblczeyad] has quit [] 22:07:30 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:08:45 -!- snorble 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quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:20 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-193-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:06:39 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:55 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-193-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:09 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-193-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:00 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:01 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:51 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.75] has joined #lisp 23:10:51 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:41 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:12:44 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:41 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:09 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:19:01 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-99-91-131-158.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 23:22:49 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:48 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:29 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.244] has joined #lisp 23:41:07 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:45:54 eli: Which implementation are you asking about? 23:45:56 PLT's 23:46:13 ? 23:48:09 -!- Constantinegggfg [uaconstant@91.202.131.112] has quit [Quit: Constantinegggfg] 23:48:52 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:13 sykopomp: he knows a bit about plt 23:50:10 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 23:50:46 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-092-075-039-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:31 -!- grouzen 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