00:01:59 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:39 *_3b* wants to implement some clim-like stuff at some point, but needs to learn enough clim to figure out which parts i want first 00:02:55 golddog: i put in another vote for clbuild + emacs + slime 00:03:05 golddog: i use clozure too 00:03:45 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:13 guess I'm giving it a go then 00:04:48 derrida: is it easy getting clozure and clbuild to play well together? 00:05:11 golddog: sort of a non-issue 00:05:34 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:51 Heh. So, I have a package :nqclim-clx-port, which doesn't export any symbols, but it occurs to me that I can still profitably -use- it in a package definition, as it would indicate a dependency. 00:06:05 golddog: i'll paste my ~/.ccl-init.lisp for you 00:06:58 drewc: Make that three-fifths convinced. 00:07:25 golddog: http://sprunge.us/ZQLX 00:07:36 thank you 00:07:50 sorry about the junk at the bottom hehe, didn't notice that 00:08:17 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-66-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:08:27 you're right that looks pretty straight forward :) 00:08:49 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:08:53 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:09:01 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-141-104.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 00:09:10 what about the junk at the top? are you planning to edit it on lisp machines? 00:09:22 yeah, not sure where that came from either 00:09:47 hadn't opened this thing in a while :D 00:09:59 cargo-culted its way through 00:10:13 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-57-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:11:41 _3b: Looks like I've got part of the sheet hierarchy stuff, part of the mirror stuff, part of the event stuff, part of the port stuff, and the start of a CLX port. Basically, the bits of "silica" that don't involve actual drawing, geometry, or gadget classes. 00:11:48 *stassats* thinks, whether any details about underlying object should be available through slime inspector 00:12:16 maybe there should be a knob "show more details" 00:12:17 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-151-22.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:02 ... Is inspecting an SBCL HEAP-ALIEN object still bloody useless? 00:13:31 in slime? 00:13:38 In anything. 00:13:54 But, yeah, slime would be a good subset of anything. 00:14:24 if sbcl can INSPECT it, slime can be made to do the same 00:14:40 nyef: nq-clim sounds interesting 00:14:42 I seem to recall SBCL being useless at INSPECTing them. 00:14:56 You wind up with an alien-type object and a SAP, and that's it. 00:15:32 and what kind of information is possible to get out? 00:16:56 If you're careful, the contents of a structure's slots. 00:17:10 we used to have a lisp machine in the office... big clunky bastard of a thing... never even tried to get it started... but it was pretty :) 00:17:29 I have a concept-proof around, but I wasn't very careful with it, so it's a bit fragile. 00:17:45 golddog: Fire it up, take disk and ROM images, and share them? 00:18:43 nyef: this was ten years ago... no idea where it went 00:18:49 minion: tell stassats about paste 32760? 00:18:49 stassats: have a look at Paste number 32760: "How to make the SBCL inspector suck less for ALIEN-VALUE objects" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/32760 00:19:04 nyef: and I think it would have needed some serious engineering to get it to boot anyway 00:19:15 hand wired circuits and what not 00:19:42 stassats: There were some problems with union types and whatnot, along with uninitialized structures. 00:19:56 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:18 is it fragile to the point of crashing? 00:20:28 Umm... Maybe? 00:20:41 It's been north of three years since I messed with this, apparently. 00:21:01 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:22:20 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@c-c725e655.1410-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: lukego] 00:25:34 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:26:29 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:58 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:29 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:30:08 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:30:11 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:31:25 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:28 -!- ysph [~user@24.181.93.165] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:41:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:47:11 Okay, preliminary decision on nq-clim is to continue by implementing transformations, then re-assess. 00:53:49 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-110-1.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55:56 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-209-171.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:56 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:01 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:03 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:58:13 dmiles pasted "SBCL simplication" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96191 00:58:23 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:53 is there a way to call the simplification (precomplier process) of SBCL? 00:59:15 since it seems to have simplfied the first form to the second form 00:59:31 That's part of the normal control-flow analysis in the compiler. 01:00:00 funcall of lambda is converted to LET. 01:00:15 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:22 Or, more accurately, funcall of a known local function is converted to LET whenever possible. 01:00:39 is there a toplevel function i can call that runs that.. the conversion to the LET form? 01:00:41 (It might not be possible if, for example, the known local function is a recursive LABELS.) 01:00:46 COMPILE? 01:01:14 It's not a LET in the sense that you know it, it's more a lexical-binding node in the control-flow graph. 01:01:20 :) something that com,pile calls 01:02:25 ah so its IR form is probly more the stage such cimplications happen 01:02:31 Yeah. 01:02:35 dmiles_afk, Python (the compiler that CMUCL and SBCL use) operates on various CFGs and IRs which don't translate directly to lisp source forms 01:02:52 IR1 / ICR is not really lisp code anymore. 01:03:00 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:03:57 -!- Ri-_ [~ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 01:04:09 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:44 thanks guys.. i am looking into the native code compiler called Python 01:07:05 ICR?? 01:07:17 adu: Implicit Continuation Representation. 01:07:33 dmiles_afk, here's a paper that gives a high-level overview of Python's structure: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~ram/pub/lfp.ps 01:08:06 lisp python or guido python? 01:08:20 -our- python, not that-other-python. 01:09:24 minion, what is python? 01:09:24 what would a bot like me know about python ? 01:10:02 Hrm... If I can get CLX mirrors working, some sort of root graft, and an event thread, I might be able to bodge this into doing -something-, even without the geometry or transformation stuff in place. 01:11:06 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:25 Adlai: perfect papaer 01:11:37 (for starting out) 01:12:26 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.91.178] has joined #lisp 01:13:57 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:17:27 nyef: working on McCLIM? 01:17:34 p_l: No, nq-clim. 01:17:43 nyef: your own? :) 01:17:46 Yeah. 01:18:02 Not yet to the point of being able to actually -do- anything, though. 01:20:36 -!- pmd [~pmd@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:20:39 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 01:22:28 Adlai: if i cant get ICR to Lisp.. i might be able to get away with just as much partial evalaution as possble 01:23:00 going for (lambda () (funcall (lambda () 1))) => 1 01:23:15 at least 01:23:27 what is ICR? 01:23:38 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-141-104.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:23:41 dmiles_afk, I think levente_meszaros (who is often around here at more reasonable hours in his timezone) has a partial evaluator for SBCL 01:23:55 adu: It's the first internal representation (IR1) used in the Python compiler for CMU Common Lisp and SBCL. 01:24:05 Implicit Continuation Representation 01:24:12 ok, so what is Implicit Continuation Representation? 01:24:34 irs a IR that is easy to emit asm for i think 01:24:40 is a IR that is easy to emit asm for i think 01:24:43 No, it's not easy to emit ASM for. 01:24:59 ok "easy" not a good word? 01:25:00 it's easier to reason about? 01:25:00 It's easy(ish) to optimize at a high level. 01:25:06 Yeah, to reason about. 01:25:18 is it SSA? 01:25:52 We then have an IR2-conversion pass to move everything to IR2 / VMR, which lets us do actual representation selection, register packing, etc. and actual assembly emission. 01:26:12 = (Static Single Assignment) 01:26:13 As I understand it, no, it is not SSA, it's closer to CPS. 01:26:20 VMR would be the phase before ASM 01:26:29 or "easier" 01:26:42 Yes, VMR is IR2 is the phase before ASM. 01:26:43 Virual Machne Representqiton 01:26:53 skeptomai [~cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:07 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:28:15 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:57 *Adlai* found that RAM's paper gave a very good high-level explanation of the various IRs 01:31:05 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:25 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 01:31:30 i am trying to figure out if bascially ABCLs compiler .. just wraps the interpretor into a bytecode rerpreseantion (unrooled) sometimes it seems to 01:31:42 (unrolled interpretor) 01:31:57 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:32:01 many compilers do that ;\ 01:32:47 sometimes is safety/optimize levels though that turn on/off things 01:33:50 i got some imporements done so far: http://paste.lisp.org/display/96168 01:36:00 Primitives.pf_equalp_execute(a,b) is {return a.EQUALP(b); } . i canould easiely make it that way.. but working on trampolines structure 01:36:09 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:36:37 Is there a way to send (warn ...) and (format t) output to the REPL *and* stdout/stderr in sbcl? 01:37:00 <_3b> clhs make-broadcast-stream 01:37:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_bro.htm 01:37:04 Shaftoe, are you looking for broadcast streams? 01:37:13 not sure. 01:37:22 I look 01:37:49 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:01 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:38 hrrm ICR actualyl isnt too far away from being interpretable 01:38:39 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:38:51 is that a correct statement? 01:39:37 Adlai: hmm. how would I do this? do I muck with *standard-output* ? 01:39:59 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f72dafd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:32 Shaftoe, (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream *standard-output* *error-output*))) ..) for example 01:41:17 Adlai: that means I'd be explicitly setting these wherever I thought it would be used? 01:41:33 you could create a macro or function to do that for you 01:42:00 <_3b> depending on what you are trying to do, you might just bind it around some outer function, or just setf it directly 01:42:08 indeed. So what you're saying is there's not a more permanent way to do this process wide 01:42:24 "process wide"? 01:42:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.91.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:35 I'm using hunchentoot in mt mode and it launches a bunch of worker threads. 01:42:43 <_3b> SETF would be the more permanent way 01:42:58 SETFing a dynamic variable's value might not propagate into new threads 01:43:11 <_3b> but stuff could still bind it locally, and watch out for only setting it in current thread 01:43:40 you could preserve the orignal values.. then plug the *STANDARD-*s with your broadcast streams 01:43:57 if hunchentoot runs on top of bordeaux-threads, I think you can control the initial dynamic bindings in new threads 01:44:08 -!- skeptomai [~cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:11 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:44:11 so whenever code would be hitting those streams instead will hit your broadcast stream 01:44:14 Adlai: I believe it does. 01:44:37 Shaftoe, ok, you can get BT to propagate your *standard-output* value to new threads 01:44:39 skeptomai [~cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:39 *_3b* just uses hunchentoot logging and tail -f 01:45:38 yeah, I'm using tail -f right now as well. But CLSQL's debug stream magically goes to the REPL, while all other error information goes to my command line. 01:45:46 I was wondering if there was an easy way to make this happen. 01:46:26 there are many standardized streams, and various things might be printing to different ones 01:46:29 clhs *debug-io* 01:46:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm 01:46:33 clhs *terminal-io* 01:46:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_termin.htm 01:48:08 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:49:29 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 01:50:43 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 01:53:31 -!- golddog [~golddog@84-217-122-101.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Quit: nightynight] 01:57:39 hmm on os x what is considered the mod key under emacs? 01:58:10 The "mod" key? 01:58:15 yeah 01:58:19 M-x 01:58:32 wormwood: fro me, it's Alt. 01:58:34 for* 01:59:16 I was surprised to find that I actually have a key that generates an M-x without requiring any modifiers. 01:59:16 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 01:59:34 thanks, I'll see whats up with the mappings 02:00:08 nyef, the "menu" key does that on my keyboard/emacs setup 02:01:04 That's the one. 02:02:15 -!- gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:04:42 spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-azoijnhmlgalrdfb] has joined #lisp 02:06:12 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:07:10 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 02:08:44 -!- rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread_] 02:09:30 -!- skeptomai [~cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: switching to a real client] 02:10:14 skeptomai [~cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:22 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:50 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:59 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 02:12:03 wormwood: the command key does meta on my laptop i think 02:12:20 wormwood: if you're using emacs in x11, you can use xmodmap 02:12:24 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-177.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:26 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@guestlaptop-21.cis.uoguelph.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:14:04 Hyper is bound to the same thing as M-x (and X11 usually sets Menu as Hyper) 02:14:37 or at least, that's how some programs interpret Menu 02:14:40 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:14:44 wormwood: i just checked mine, in iterm i have option set to meta in X11 i remapped command to meta and option to alt 02:15:21 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:47 I wonder where hyper originated 02:16:43 space cadet keyboard it seems 02:17:20 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.4] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:18:22 balance: £5.94 GBP Minimum withdrawal amount: £6.00 GBP <--- I find this evil. Evil, Evil Paypal 02:23:44 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:24:59 derrida, as in the hyper key? 02:27:38 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 02:29:06 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:41 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:30:25 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 02:30:38 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:23 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:10 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:33:14 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:58 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:37:36 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[~rsmith05@131.104.8.109] has joined #lisp 04:13:23 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:14:16 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 04:15:26 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 04:20:51 scottydoo [~scott@66.112.250.211] has joined #lisp 04:21:20 Hello? 04:21:51 -!- rswarbrick [rupert@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:22:32 hello scottydoo 04:22:43 Hi! 04:22:57 New here? 04:23:02 Yes 04:23:12 What brings you to #lisp? 04:23:15 I've just started learning LISP and Scheme. 04:23:17 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:23:26 I had a question about a difference between the two. 04:23:38 Go right ahead. 04:24:02 I was reading a paper written by a guy named Chaitin and I couldn't get his LISP example to work with my Scheme interpreter. 04:24:15 I realize there are some differences. 04:24:19 scottydoo: Right, they are ferry different languages. 04:24:31 Not very. 04:24:36 scottydoo: Oh, and for the past comple of decades, we write it "Lisp". 04:24:44 Okay 04:24:44 "ferry" 04:24:49 *very 04:25:10 scottydoo: As you can see, this is one point where Zhivago disagrees with me. 04:25:18 Here's the example: (let (f n) (* n n) (f 10)) 04:25:24 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.48] has joined #lisp 04:25:30 CL divides variable values into two parts -- a function part and a value part. 04:25:48 Well, that example is wrong in both languages. 04:25:54 It's supposed to say, "call f 'n * n' and apply it to 10." 04:26:08 So, it's supposed to give 100. 04:26:14 scottydoo: You must have missed a few parantheses. 04:26:15 Unfortunately what you have instead is gibberish. 04:26:22 Find your actual example. 04:27:05 Well, it's formatted with carriage returns, but I didn't think formatting mattered in Lisp. 04:27:26 The differences are essentially (a) first class continuations, (b) single vs. dual valued variables, (c) an extensible type system. 04:27:33 scotty: You are wrong. 04:27:50 scotty: Find the actual example. What you have written there is gibberish irrespective of formatting. 04:28:09 Okay, let me give you the link to the pdf. 04:29:44 http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~cannata/cs345/Class%20Notes/06%20Chaitin%20MetaMath.pdf 04:29:49 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:30:13 What page? 04:30:16 It's on page 41 in print, and page 53 in the PDF. 04:32:02 That seems to be a strange dialect. 04:32:04 He is not using CL or scheme there. 04:32:06 scottydoo: it's "a" lisp. Neither CL nor scheme. 04:32:08 scottydoo: You indeed copied it right. But That's not how `let' works in Scheme (unless my memory is very rusty). 04:32:18 It's also strangely typesetted. 04:32:22 It's definitely not how it works. 04:32:26 I've been trying it! 04:32:48 scottydoo: You would be better off with a real book. 04:32:48 He has produced his own dialect, which is fairly easy to understand. 04:32:59 minion: tell scottydoo about pcl. 04:33:00 scottydoo: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:33:01 I thought it was strange. I think this is equivalent to a function definition. 04:33:12 that's a bizarre let :\ 04:33:13 beach: the point of that document isn't to teach Lisp. 04:33:26 pkhuong: Right. 04:33:36 Yeah, it was just something I was recommended. 04:34:08 scottydoo: if you're interested in theoretical computer science. 04:34:23 -!- gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:34:45 Thanks for the book recommendation! 04:34:55 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:04 beach: Why do you think that the languages are very different? 04:35:12 In Scheme, you could say (let ((f (lambda (n) (* n n)))) (f 10)) 04:35:19 I guess what I'm looking for is "define," right? 04:35:21 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:31 scotty: You're probably just looking for some extra parentheses. 04:35:43 Zhivago: Scheme doesn't have: classes, generic functions, method combinations, multiple dispatche, reader macros, etc. 04:36:07 Well, I noticed that in scheme, let takes multiple identifiers. 04:36:35 beach: and CL doesn't have AOP, nor context-oriented programming... 04:36:47 beach: Scheme has classes, the rest aren't very hard to produce. 04:36:49 scottydoo: In Lisp, that would be (flet ((f (n) (* n n))) (f 10)) 04:37:05 Well, Scheme has tagging, which is all you need to implement classes. 04:37:08 In CL, on the other hand, you could say (let ((f #'(lambda (n) (* n n)))) (funcall f 10)), but normally, you'd say (defun f (n) (* n n)) and then do (f n). 04:37:31 Or use flet, as beach did, of couse. 04:37:33 Well, flet would be the natural option there. 04:37:43 Ah! 04:38:47 beach: All of those things come down to essentially 'library' support -- although you might make an argument about funcallables. 04:40:11 Is flet just a shortcut for creating a lambda? 04:40:22 No. 04:40:36 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:40:54 It introduces a name into the lexical scope as a function name. 04:42:03 Does that mean it's more like defun? 04:42:39 It seems like lambda appears in "on the fly" use. 04:42:42 (let ((a (lambda () 1))) (flet ((b () 2)) (+ (funcall a) (b)))) 04:42:43 *on 04:44:04 Is that 3? 04:44:10 What are you trying to demonstrate? 04:44:20 The difference between let and flet? 04:47:39 I need to get a Lisp interpreter and play with this. All I have is my Scheme interpreter. 04:48:11 clisp is probably the easiest to install and play with. 04:48:24 Just don't expect much performance. 04:48:44 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-62-74-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:48 Is that a Menorah? :-) 04:51:06 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:49 scottydoo: these days, a lot of us use Lisp _compilers_ which also happen to support dynamic recompilation :) 04:52:12 I see. 04:56:46 s/_compilers_/interpreters/ 04:56:57 Interpreters supporting dynamic recompilation are a lot more useful. 04:57:46 (let ((a (lambda () 1))) (let ((b (lambda () 2))) (+ (funcall a) (funcall b)))) 04:58:04 Some people seem to think that 'interpreter' is a dirty word, and end up twisting things about completely. 04:58:27 scottydoo: (flet ((a () 1) (b () 2)) (+ (a) (b))) works well, too :) 04:58:36 konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 04:58:42 But fails to illustrate the difference. 04:59:01 scotty: Do you understand my example now? 04:59:34 Maybe 04:59:56 So... 05:00:09 I can call "b" outside its scope when I use flet? 05:01:02 Or, "b" is put in the scope just ouside of where it's introduced? 05:01:06 scottydoo: no, Common Lisp uses separate namespaces for functions and variables. 05:01:23 let establishes variable bindings, flet establishes function bindings. 05:01:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@121.242.102.208] has left #lisp 05:01:30 So, b gets added to a symbol table? 05:01:39 Let me try some more stuff. 05:01:47 lol 05:02:08 perhaps this will illustrate it better... (let ((a (lambda () 1))) (flet ((a () 2)) (+ (funcall a) (a)))) 05:02:11 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.142.98] has left #lisp 05:02:29 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:49 Sukoshi`` [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 05:04:00 scottydoo: in common lisp, this makes complete sense: (defun foo (list) (list list)) 05:04:24 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:04:37 -!- GrayGnome` [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:04:52 -!- spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-azoijnhmlgalrdfb] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:04:52 -!- nickjd [~76ec90aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-qdxjgxfxjelgldub] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:04:55 So the rightmost "list" is some identifier called "list?" 05:05:11 no 05:05:13 Oh 05:05:17 (foo 1) => (1) 05:05:33 (funcall #'foo 1) => (1) 05:05:47 (funcall foo 1) => error, FOO is unbound 05:07:18 The last example you posted with the a's is crazy. 05:07:42 it's simple once you understand that there's two namespaces there :) 05:07:48 Are both a's considered functions? 05:08:09 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zbgkikegvwnuctnf] has joined #lisp 05:08:37 So there's a namespace for things bound with let and a namespace for things bound with flet. 05:08:42 (let ((a (lambda () 1))) (flet ((a () 2)) (+ (funcall a) (funcall #'a)))) 05:08:54 -!- cmsimon [~Chris@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:21 where #'a expands to (function a) 05:10:07 the first reference to A gets the A from the value namespace (bound by flet). The second reference to A gets A from the function namespace (bound by flet) 05:10:13 they both refer to functions 05:10:26 nickjd [~76ec90aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-qdxjgxfxjelgldub] has joined #lisp 05:10:44 scottydoo: neither of them is a function.. both A's are symbols (the same symbol, actually).. symbols can be the names of variables and of functions.. let introduces a variable, flet introduces a local function.. both are named by the symbol A, but the "look-up" method is different 05:11:42 I think it's a mistake to call those 'two namespaces' -- what you really have are two 'value spaces' with one name. 05:12:25 Okay, I think I'm getting it. 05:12:37 Does the way you call it determine which lookup it does? 05:12:50 when you have (A) the function named by A is looked up.. when you have A the value of the variable named by A is looked up (this value may be a function) 05:13:13 Zhivago: it's okay if you think it's a mistake. I'm using established terminology (and relevant one -- Gabriel refers to them as namespaces and 'subenvironments' in his paper) 05:13:36 Yeah, it's just a pity that it's wrong. 05:13:48 sigh 05:13:53 Whoa, you all are intense! :-) 05:14:19 scottydoo: nah, we're all chill here. 05:14:23 Until gavino shows up, I guess. 05:14:23 Ha-ha... 05:15:11 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:15:20 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 05:15:40 scottydoo: for extra fun: (funcall (lambda (list) (list #list list)) 'list) 05:16:00 #list? 05:16:14 #' 05:16:22 Not caught up yet! 05:16:23 who is Gavino? 05:16:24 lol 05:16:45 I'm still dwelling on something adeht said. 05:17:24 scottydoo: you can also get a hold of the function named A by using the special operator FUNCTION, i.e. (FUNCTION A).. a shorthand notation for that is #'A 05:17:37 Yes! 05:17:44 And is that what funcall does as well? 05:17:56 no. 05:18:00 ! 05:18:06 no, funcall just takes a function and arguments and calls that function with those arguments 05:18:06 funcall takes a function as an argument 05:18:15 Okay 05:18:21 you'd do (funcall (function a) ...) 05:18:28 or (funcall #'a ...) 05:18:34 funcall accepts a function _designator_ 05:18:40 it doesn't matter where that function comes from 05:18:47 Ah, so, 'a' has already been resolved. 05:19:02 It just looks for 'a' in the function namespace. 05:19:08 sykopomp: there are many holes in my explanation 05:19:39 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:20:08 I think working out the terminology is helping. I was probably using different words to mean the same thing in some cases. 05:21:05 scottydoo: what language do you hail from? 05:21:15 Programming language? 05:21:32 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.193] has joined #lisp 05:21:36 I don't hail from any specific one. 05:21:52 But I'm pretty new to functional programming languages. 05:21:54 troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 The first one I learned was Haskell. 05:22:07 you'll continue to be new to them, then. CL is not a functional language. 05:22:23 Oh? 05:22:59 "Common Lisp is a general-purpose, multi-paradigm programming language. It supports a combination of procedural, functional, and object-oriented programming paradigms." 05:22:59 CL is a multiparadigm language that supports side-effects in its core, and happens to support function-level programming. 05:23:07 I see. 05:23:31 I haven't seen much of the other paradigms yet I guess. 05:23:31 but it doesn't even emphasize the function part that much. It's pretty procedural compared even to Scheme. 05:23:43 CL is just kind of a mishmash :) 05:24:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-62-74-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:24:20 if someone put a gun to my head and told me to think fast and label CL as one thing, though, I'd call it "Programmable" 05:25:45 GrayGnome` [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 05:26:17 (flet ((a () 2)) (a)) 05:26:25 (let ((a (lambda () 1))) (flet ((a () 2)) (a))) 05:27:46 Okay, so I can call a function with the () notation, but I can also refer to a variable and nest it in parentheses for fun. 05:28:01 ? 05:28:08 scottydoo: for fun? 05:28:24 scottydoo: What you're saying doesn't make much sense. "nest it in parentheses?" 05:28:25 scottydoo: parenthesis are not whitespace 05:28:31 *parentheses 05:28:44 I should say, I can add unnecessary parentheses when referring to the variable. 05:28:52 no 05:28:58 (let ((a 2)) (a)) 05:29:03 try that. 05:29:07 -!- Sukoshi`` [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:29:08 that won't work. 05:29:09 I did. 05:29:12 scottydoo: this will attempt to call a function named A 05:29:15 It works in clisp. 05:29:28 scottydoo: you must have defined a function called A. 05:29:37 did you do (defun a () 1)? :) 05:29:41 Oh, it must still "remember." 05:29:44 Shit 05:29:58 scottydoo: you can (fmakunbound 'a) and try again 05:30:27 cmsimon [~Chris@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 05:30:29 Hmm... 05:30:33 It still works. 05:30:53 Let me restart clisp. 05:31:20 Okay, now it breaks. 05:33:04 it shouldn't have "worked".. I don't think restarting clisp gave you much insight 05:33:37 It just said: "*** - EVAL: undefined function A" 05:33:56 hm 05:33:59 Makes sense according to what you said. 05:34:02 perhaps we need to take a step back. 05:34:30 fmakeunbound isn't a standard function? 05:34:31 scottydoo: were you paying attention when we said that A will refer to different things depending on context? :) 05:34:46 Yes 05:35:07 let introduces the variable 'a' and flet introduces the function 'a.' 05:35:10 franki^: no, but fmakunbound is. 05:35:29 Both can be referred to depending on the context. 05:35:33 sykopomp: Ah, right. :) 05:35:35 scottydoo: correct. 05:36:04 Well, are you saying that ([variable identifier]) is supposed to do something? 05:36:19 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:37:00 if we're only talking about functions vs variables, then having an identifier as the first element in an evaluated list will only look for its value in the function namespace. 05:37:19 it will then try to call that 05:37:30 (a) => look for a function called A, and call it. 05:37:35 Right 05:37:40 a => retrieve the _variable_ binding of a 05:37:45 And since there wasn't one, I got an error. 05:37:51 (function a) => retrieve the _function_ binding of a 05:38:02 #'a => convenient syntax for the above. 05:38:43 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:39:09 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:29 scottydoo: I was talking about the attitude towards something baffling, when supposedly you evaluated (fmakunbound 'a) and "It still works." to call a function named A.. the thinking process goes: hmm, it didn't do what I expected.. instead of trying to understand it, I'll just destroy the world and create another one and hopefully everything will be ok.. that's the attitude of magical thinking 05:40:04 adeht: I kinda like the "one thing at a time" approach, though. 05:40:23 I assumed that by restarting the program, the table of bound functions and variables would be erased. 05:40:41 destroying the world is easier than taking a conversation about lisp 1 vs lisp 2 and turning it into "okay, now we have to understand what this whole 'running image' thing is all about" 05:40:52 lol 05:40:54 Oh man. 05:41:19 blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:31 I didn't realize we were talking about something so nuanced. 05:42:38 <_3b> well, if you want it more complicated, there is the bit about it working completely differently in scheme :p 05:42:41 *sykopomp* is fairly sure that there's not a 'table of bound functions and variables' in the standard. 05:43:05 The reason I didn't try to understand why fmakunbound wasn't working was because we were already trying to tackle a different issue. 05:43:47 I was just trying to get the result that I thought you wanted. 05:43:54 <_3b> sykopomp: 'environment' not close enough? 05:44:12 _3b: at runtime? 05:45:04 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:06 scottydoo: so now I have to live with the testimony of a behavior I didn't expect and have no way to look into it ;) 05:45:25 <_3b> sykopomp: 'dynamic environment' then? 05:45:36 Yeah 05:45:44 _3b: where's the rest of it? 05:45:52 Sorry! 05:45:57 Couldn't you just try it? 05:46:06 scottydoo: try what? 05:46:16 To reproduce what I did. 05:46:20 scottydoo: you probably did something wrong when fmakunbound didn't work :) 05:46:23 scottydoo: that's the point.. I don't know what you did 05:46:41 scottydoo: if you have access to some dribble file, shar eit 05:46:59 -!- rme [rme@clozure-75CCF2C1.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:46:59 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-177.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:47:14 Well, presumably it's all in this conversation. 05:47:29 Let me see if I can reproduce it. 05:47:35 I assumed you knew why it wasn't working. 05:48:26 I bet you tried to do (fmakunbound a) instead of (fmakunbound 'a) 05:48:32 :) 05:48:58 That would have given an error. 05:49:09 I'm pretty sure I copied it directly from the chat. 05:49:31 Trying to reproduce it now though, I see it must have been something subtle. 05:49:39 -!- troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:49:40 scottydoo: the implementation does not dictate the language 05:50:06 Okay 05:50:12 Well, in clisp it gives an error! 05:50:23 scottydoo: try (progn (defun a ()) (fmakunbound 'a)) 05:50:43 scottydoo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_fmakun.htm The behavior is pretty specific here. 05:51:20 " 05:51:22 Exceptional Situations: 05:51:23 Should signal an error of type type-error if name is not a function name. 05:51:54 right. You were probably doing something wrong, and we don't really have a way to go back and tell you what it is, but I don't care enough to find out :P 05:52:03 Ha-ha... 05:52:04 Sorry! 05:52:07 PEBKAC happens. 05:52:24 lol 05:52:31 morning 05:52:49 I've never seen that before. 05:52:59 How about PICNIC? 05:53:19 meh 05:53:23 gnite, #lisp 05:53:44 Nite! Thanks for the lesson! 05:55:51 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:54 randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 06:02:11 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 06:14:56 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.8.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:10 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 06:16:51 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:10 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:19:35 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:17 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:20:55 Hun [~hun@95-89-70-43-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:21:13 _3b`` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:19 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:10 -!- jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:14 jroes [~jroes@rube.serapio.org] has joined #lisp 06:24:14 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:44 spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-cnwameuihnxoheek] has joined #lisp 06:25:19 According to the CLHS, the functions <, <=, =, >, and >= "Might signal arithmetic-error if otherwise unable to fulfill its contract.". What would be an example of such a situation? 06:26:02 The "otherwise" exclues the other situation indicated, namely "Might signal type-error if some argument is not a real.". 06:27:26 beach, maybe if you tried comparing NaNs on a lisp that supported them? 06:27:48 Adlai: Yeah, sounds plausible. Thanks. 06:27:52 NaNs have well-defined comparison semantics, don't they? 06:28:05 -!- ikonia [~mattd@unaffiliated/ikonia] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:28:10 adeht: I wouldn't know. 06:28:15 ikonia [~mattd@unaffiliated/ikonia] has joined #lisp 06:28:17 adeht, I don't think so 06:28:45 beach, np 06:28:47 *Adlai* -> work 06:28:50 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:29:49 I can't see how that page is correct, because that statment applies to all those functions, though = can compare complex numbers. But by the definition of "might signal", the situation has undefined consequences. 06:30:13 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:28 It follows that the spec says that comparing complex numbers for equality has undefined consequences. 06:31:11 ? 06:31:27 "Two complexes are considered equal by = if their real and imaginary parts are equal according to =." 06:31:40 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:05 adeht: Yes, but it still (implicitly) says that the consequences are undefined. 06:32:32 how do you infer that? 06:33:08 adeht: What I said. All these functions "might signal an error" (which according to definition means the consequences are undefined), and that goes for = too. 06:34:00 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:34:06 nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:38 I believe the statement I quoted takes precedence 06:34:48 adeht: If it had said "except for comparing complex numbers for equality", it would have been better. 06:35:38 I see it as redundant 06:35:44 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:47 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:36:26 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:02 -!- Hun [~hun@95-89-70-43-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:40:14 (of course "Might signal ... if ..." is also redundant.. so I can see your point of qualifying that statement.. but it certainly does not say that consequences are undefined for the case of complex numbers) 06:40:32 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:41:11 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 06:44:20 adeht: I would have preferred if they had grouped = and /= together in one group and the others in another. Then for the first group, they could have said, "Might signal an error... if some arguments are not numbers" 06:44:41 adeht: As it stands now, this is not explicit. 06:45:06 Ogedei [~user@e178213214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:20 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:23 kephas [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:44 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@unaffiliated/g0sub] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:58:09 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-222.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:03:22 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:05:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:07:16 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:33 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 07:13:55 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:56 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:14:54 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 07:16:48 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:18:57 Is there a general statement somewhere in the CLHS that if the definition of a function says that an argument is of type X, then implicitly, a type-error might be signaled if such is not the case? 07:20:24 So for instance if the page for some function says number: "a number", then this implies that a type-error is (or "might be") signaled? 07:20:48 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 07:21:00 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:03 that would also be a redundant statement.. saying something might happen does not forbid anything.. the Standard is about forbidding things 07:21:26 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178213214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:22:02 adeht: That's not quite true, because "might signal" implies a situation with undefined consequences, which I am sure has implications on what a conforming program is. 07:22:03 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:22:33 clhs 1.4.4.3 07:22:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm 07:22:50 Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated. 07:23:14 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:44 that's exactly the point.. it does not define the consequences (does not constrain the implementor) 07:24:04 Yeah. 07:25:36 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:25:47 beach: Which includes your type-error. 07:26:36 Indeed. 07:27:02 Time to leave for work. Talk to you later. 07:27:22 beach: if you would scratch that sentence, the consequences would still be undefined.. therefore it is redundant.. cya 07:36:11 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:36:46 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 07:38:13 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:38:19 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 07:45:54 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-152-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:02 hmm.. sbcl's fd-stream is a structure, not an ordinary class.. so can't use change-class :( 07:47:56 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:48:03 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:39 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:50:25 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:53:15 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: *crash clang clatter bang thud* ZzzzZzZZzZzzz...] 07:54:14 -!- konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:54:42 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.153.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:57:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:57:40 good morning 07:58:22 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:01:34 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:02:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:03:04 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:04:37 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 08:06:54 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:07:16 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:07:55 Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:17 -!- Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:08:17 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 08:08:42 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:09:20 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:10:29 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:10:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:00 Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:12:34 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:22 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:13:59 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:14:22 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.66] has joined #lisp 08:14:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:08 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 08:16:12 in a fresh SBCL does this quit for you? (progn (sb-ext::disable-debugger) (sb-thread::make-thread (lambda () (error "foo")))) 08:16:49 1.0.36.13 says: unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting 08:17:03 except it doesn't finish quitting 08:17:56 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:26 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:19:27 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:19:29 Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:40 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:56 -!- Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:19:56 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 08:20:50 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:16 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:21 _3b``` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:18 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:23:33 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:24:05 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:24:28 levente_meszaros: it doesn't quit for me 08:24:51 Probably only when the toplevel thread errors? 08:25:44 -!- _3b`` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:26:58 tcr, when I press C-c it quits 08:27:01 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-55.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:27:20 no surprise there 08:28:06 but I guess it should have either quit on the error from the other thread or not write "quitting" 08:28:30 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 08:28:54 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:09 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:29:40 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:00 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:33:14 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-55.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:35 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:46 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441771.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:45:17 -!- Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:37 Mandar [~armand@217.108.230.48] has joined #lisp 08:48:33 God do I hate this Apple Mail not truncating long lines 08:49:33 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:51:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:52:14 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:52:15 udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-qnlbysnbvgodiqac] has joined #lisp 08:53:06 -!- udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-qnlbysnbvgodiqac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:34 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:00:53 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 09:04:18 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:04:18 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 09:04:57 *easyE* spent an hour searching for a solution to Apple Mail without coming up with anything easy. 09:05:14 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 09:05:15 hrm 09:05:26 -!- pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has quit [Changing host] 09:05:26 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 09:05:37 And I need it to get to the corporate Exchange instance. 09:06:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-230.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:07:02 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:34 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:08:23 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:11:01 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:11:31 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:15:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-77-205.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:18:20 pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 09:23:16 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:23:46 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:25:51 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-200-36.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 09:28:01 kajic [~kajic@nl119-196-128.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 09:28:08 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:29:48 -!- cYmen2 [ujasp@rzstud5.stud.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: blast] 09:33:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:19 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:34:20 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:38 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.153.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:37:17 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:37:33 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 09:37:46 ECL problem: I want to make an shared object version of ecl, but I can't seem to get the right invocation of c:build-shared-library to include my routines. Do I need to reference them in the prologue or something? 09:38:13 easyE: have you tried going through ECLs extensions to ASDF? 09:38:52 No, is there support for refering to shared objects? 09:42:05 not sure, but I do recall some things regarding makind shared objects 09:44:11 Axius [~hi@92.85.211.9] has joined #lisp 09:45:27 P_l: There doesn't seem to directly be support in ECL ASDF for what I want to do, but thanks. 09:45:31 blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has joined #lisp 09:45:46 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:47:39 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53:12 -!- Axius [~hi@92.85.211.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:55:01 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-121-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:51 -!- borism [~boris@213-35-234-26-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:56:23 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:22 borism [~boris@213-35-233-202-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:00:52 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:05 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:10 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:05:07 -!- luis` is now known as luis 10:06:02 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:06:11 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:06:27 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.2] has joined #lisp 10:07:45 poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:43 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:10:34 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:10:47 Answer to earlier ECL question: to link in additional objects, specify via :ld-flags to c:build-shared-library 10:11:28 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:18 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:09 -!- poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 10:16:01 -!- spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-cnwameuihnxoheek] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:17:27 poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:39 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:20:50 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:21:15 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:21:52 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:22:04 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:22:25 -!- stassats` 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[~user@95.214.74.176] has joined #lisp 11:10:42 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:15:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:15:34 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 11:19:02 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:21:17 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-230.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:21:44 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:22:25 naeg [~naeg@111-166-19-84.nbiserv.com] has joined #lisp 11:22:27 hey 11:22:43 are there actually any other programming languages that use s-expressions? 11:24:47 Scheme, Liskell 11:25:00 The initial version of Dylan 11:25:23 uh, compiling sbcl contribs fails with sb-eval disabled 11:25:26 A lot of academic AI-related DSLs 11:26:21 naeg: Why do you care? 11:26:37 opencyc used lisp before, but now it is in java, but the s-expressions are still there 11:26:46 maybe they have another Java implementation of CL 11:27:21 s-expressions are just nestable clauses of symbols. 11:27:36 Zhivago: i don't know, i really like the syntax of lisp, but i can't really use lisp for the stuff i do normally 11:27:39 Pretty much everything uses those, with various constraints. 11:27:43 -!- poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 11:31:10 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:32:20 i'd love to see a lisp-like language, which can make use of c librarys etc 11:32:45 naeg: huh, what do you do normally? and cl can use c libraries pretty easily using CFFI 11:33:26 minion: tell naeg about CFFI 11:33:27 naeg: please look at CFFI: CFFI, the Common Foreign Function Interface, purports to be a portable foreign function interface for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/CFFI 11:34:01 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:06 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:35:22 i will look at it, thanks aerique. but i read about creating stand alone executables, and they are fucking big. is there another way outer with cl-launch? 11:36:06 naeg: See ECL. 11:36:23 thanks, i hope my dream comes true in the next hours ;) 11:36:38 ECL compiles to C code. 11:37:09 cool, sounds like what i have searched for, and if i can use the c/c++ libraries with cffi it's perfect 11:37:27 I believe so, or you can just link directly to them. 11:38:01 but the calling convention etc? i have to read cffi first... 11:41:17 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:41:26 naeg, CFFI takes care of the calling convention differences 11:41:57 re cyc + cl = i am working on enabing the new open source relase of javaCyc to use CL 11:42:08 to jdz 11:42:43 i am stealing bits of ABCL and putting into LarKC 11:43:04 which is probably imo the fastest javaLisp 11:43:14 LarKC that is ;) 11:43:28 ABCL is just the most compliant 11:44:21 i did a code merge of the two before.. but that was over two years ago while cyc lisp engine was closed source.. so i am not allowed to use that code.. just the experienc 11:45:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:46:04 -!- Ifur [~osm@73.84-48-93.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:46:05 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 11:46:19 the problem though is in the end since you can write code in CL for Cyc.. you'll end up only able to use the Allegro or the JavaPort.. not the Cyc port of Cyc 11:46:38 not the C port of Cyc* 11:47:26 but at least will work in LarKC/OpenCyc/ResearchCyc/FullCyc(Allegro) 11:47:39 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:48:11 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 11:48:59 ok i guess the next two hours i gotta learn how to use the precompiler (Python?) in SBCL 11:49:52 its really awefull that ABCL is not reducing (funcall (lamdba () 1)) to 11:49:56 1 11:50:19 dmiles: for empty-loop benchmarks? (: 11:50:53 as long as they are really truely empty 11:51:12 thats going to be the real Q .. should it still loop? 11:52:12 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:53:51 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:54:57 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:55:18 dmiles: umm, I wasn't really serious. 11:55:30 those are the most meaningless benchmarks of all. 11:58:04 :) 12:00:14 There are no meaningless benchmarks, just misconceptions about what they are measuring (e.g. the credulity of benchmark readers) (: 12:04:05 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 G'morning all. 12:08:49 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-32-25.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:09:35 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:10:10 prxq [~mommer@e179223122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-66-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:11:41 hi 12:21:57 udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-qezirivqsasmuiul] has joined #lisp 12:22:51 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:23:49 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:31:07 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:31:16 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:36:26 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:32 clhs define-condition 12:36:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_5.htm 12:42:45 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.210] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:42:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:42:57 lemoinem [~swoog@98.142.251.161] has joined #lisp 12:43:35 mega1 [~quassel@3e44b17d.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:45:37 anyone here knows how to make cl-pdf load under a utf-8 locale and how to make it emit non-latin-1 chars? 12:50:50 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:29 fiveop [~fiveop@g229151248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:18 hmm, I managed to load it by hunting down and killing the offending char in a comment 12:55:33 but how to emit non-latin-1 chars still escapes me 12:55:46 Is it even defined to be -possible-? 12:55:48 -!- borism [~boris@213-35-233-202-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [K-Lined] 12:58:14 the existence of pdf:*default-encoding* is suggestive 12:58:25 Fair enough. 13:00:27 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 13:03:23 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [] 13:05:07 ned [~andrew@c-71-233-209-245.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:23 ... There's something pleasant about using an actual condition class instead of providing a format string to ERROR. 13:08:11 pmd [~pmd@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 13:08:31 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:08:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:09:54 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:10:18 nyef: of course.. strings are opaque 13:10:24 *Xach* crawled errno.h just to be able to signal real errors on syscall failure and have conditions named e.g. unix-error:eperm and unix-error:ewouldblock 13:10:40 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:11 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:40 did anyone bother implementing something along the lines of http://xach.com/naggum/articles/3215908980293864@naggum.net.html ? 13:12:07 adeht: i recall someone did do exactly that but i can't remember who or where :( 13:12:14 maybe nikodemus? 13:12:28 or some other #lisp regular 13:12:53 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/tokenizer.lisp 13:13:36 hah 13:13:53 adeht: so that was a rhetorical question? :) 13:14:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:14:33 Xach: nah, I was just too lazy to google ;) 13:15:29 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:32 *Xach* wonders why he's getting a zillion visitors to http://xach.livejournal.com/170311.html 13:16:13 Probably because it's useful in an argument. 13:16:38 true, but the surge in interest is recent 13:16:50 Either that, or something related to the slashdot effect. 13:16:51 maybe someone is Doing It Wrong 13:16:51 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:14 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 *Xach* wishes he had access to lj referer info 13:19:13 pragma_ [~pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:24 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:42 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest63285 13:21:42 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 13:25:32 Xach, the visitors are from the future, and you got them because everybody in the channel is now clicking that link? 13:26:40 *daniel* joins the visiting crowd 13:27:21 oh, so the log timestamps are off 13:28:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:30:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:31:56 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.227] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1CA84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:54 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:36:38 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1CA84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:03 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: out] 13:39:30 Xach: saw your note on the blog. i've never tried zpng or vecto.... i use the gimp to make bitmaps and just draw them in the game 13:40:13 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zbgkikegvwnuctnf] has left #lisp 13:42:07 dto1: that seems quite labor-intensive 13:42:48 i don't have anything to generate at the moment. my whole mental model of how to make these games is built on drawing little bitmaps for the guys 13:43:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcafykdzyxfmilzx] has joined #lisp 13:44:27 aha. indirect slashdotting. 13:45:44 hmm? 13:46:42 http://xach.livejournal.com/170311.html <- http://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/where-dijkstra-went-wrong-the-value-of-basic-as-a-first-programming-language/ <- http://developers.slashdot.org/story/10/03/10/0348241/The-Value-of-BASIC-As-a-First-Programming-Language 13:48:35 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:49:29 Xach: cool :) 13:50:51 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:45 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:52:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcafykdzyxfmilzx] has left #lisp 13:53:40 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:51 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:53:53 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 13:54:46 Ogedei [~user@e178214189.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:29 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:56:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcafykdzyxfmilzx] has joined #lisp 14:00:14 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:31 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:05:17 -!- Guest63285 [~pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:05:18 Guest63285 [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 14:06:05 -!- Guest63285 is now known as pragma_ 14:06:39 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:53 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-23-81-197.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:44 -!- sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:08:49 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-19-23-47.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:51 -!- udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-qezirivqsasmuiul] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:15:49 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:15 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@adsl174.uninet.ee] has joined #lisp 14:16:41 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:56 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 14:17:38 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.74.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:18:29 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 14:19:53 tfb_ [~tfb@212.183.140.2] has joined #lisp 14:21:37 I started in QBasic (: 14:21:58 Lasted about two years before I advanced to C. 14:22:31 The only thing good about QBasic was QBasic Gorillas...god that was a fun game 14:22:50 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@adsl174.uninet.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:57 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:23:01 Nibbles are pretty dang good too...but nothing beats throwing exploding bananas at a monkey on rooftops 14:23:10 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 14:23:50 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@adsl174.uninet.ee] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-54.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:26:54 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:26:54 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:26:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:28:05 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 14:28:43 -!- ASau is now known as ASau`` 14:32:41 vng [~vng@123.20.113.126] has joined #lisp 14:33:09 maus [~maus@123.20.1.47] has joined #lisp 14:33:25 Good evening! 14:33:29 Good evening! 14:34:02 hello maus 14:34:16 hi vng :) 14:34:59 ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:35:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:17 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:39 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@adsl174.uninet.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:50 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:41:38 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcafykdzyxfmilzx] has left #lisp 14:46:18 in asdf:defsystem is there a way to use wildcards or includes all files in a subdirectory instead of listing each file manually? 14:47:18 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:50:14 #. to the rescue, until you realize it's a horrible idea 14:52:35 adeht: c'mon, my system SHOULD include .#wibbly.lisp 14:52:37 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-176-145.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 14:52:56 hmm, interesting that #. might introduce a balanced .# problem 14:53:35 You'd need some way to manage the dependencies 14:54:45 oh you could use some perl script to extract them from the file's headers :) 14:55:04 slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1CA84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:58:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:00:38 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:05 well the directory i want to use this on, each file defines an object, so they dont really depend on each other and could be loaded in any order 15:04:35 mathk [~Miranda@78.155.152.6] has joined #lisp 15:09:46 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:12:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-77-205.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:12:58 PuffTheMagic_: an object? 15:13:22 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:14:08 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-176-145.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:18 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-176-145.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 15:16:34 jmignault [~jmignault@vpn.nybg.org] has joined #lisp 15:16:57 -!- CrazEd [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:18:33 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 15:19:16 CrazEd_ [~befop@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:20:11 -!- vng [~vng@123.20.113.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:20:37 -!- Mandar [~armand@217.108.230.48] has left #lisp 15:21:27 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:21:41 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:24:58 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@adsl174.uninet.ee] has joined #lisp 15:26:01 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 15:26:02 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.69.8] has joined #lisp 15:26:02 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.69.8] has quit [Changing host] 15:26:02 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:27:07 silenius [~jl@dslb-088-072-192-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:18 seibel [~user@adsl-99-155-195-178.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:18 -!- seibel is now known as gigamonkey 15:31:21 dia100daly [~sdiawara@212.99.78.121] has joined #lisp 15:31:35 hi Ginei_Morioka 15:31:39 err, hi gigamonkey 15:32:15 gigamonkey: i wanted to show someone your vecto-powered charts, but i can't find the right link any more. also, i wanted to see the latest uptick trend. 15:32:53 what to do to get a value of text-editor 15:32:56 (defun text-field-changed (tf value) 15:32:56 (format t "~&Text field ~A changed to ~S" tf value)) 15:32:56 ;(defparameter *editor* (clim:make-pane 'clim:text-editor 15:32:56 ; :value ";;;Ecrire le code des filtres ici" 15:32:56 ; :editable-p t 15:32:56 ; :value-changed-callback 'text-field-changed 15:32:56 ; :ncolumns 80 :nlines 20)) 15:32:57 (clim::define-application-frame editor () 15:32:57 () 15:32:58 (:panes 15:32:58 (display :application) 15:32:59 (pane1 (clim:make-pane 'clim::text-editor 15:32:59 :value ";;;Ecrire l\"e\" code des filtres ici" 15:33:00 :editable-p t 15:33:04 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 15:33:12 i am sorry 15:33:13 dia100daly: use paste.lisp.org to paste code. 15:33:26 -!- jmignault [~jmignault@vpn.nybg.org] has quit [Quit: I really must go] 15:33:27 ok 15:33:28 is there a way to use constants in `case' without using #.? (note: creating a new macro doesn't count) 15:34:42 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:53 bjthuwxf [~user@125.39.108.6] has joined #lisp 15:35:41 pmd: not really. 15:36:52 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:38:13 bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:33 clim gadget-value 15:39:34 Multiple entries found. Try looking up one of: "gadget-value,Method,{0-8}", "gadget-value,Generic Function" 15:39:39 wild guess. 15:39:49 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:01 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:40:03 anyone know how you can play sound/media with CL? I dont mean midi but mp3/wav/ogg/avi etc. Or should I just call mplayer 15:40:11 hello lispers 15:40:12 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:40:18 http://l1sp.org/clim/gadget-value has slightly easier links. 15:40:29 PissedNumlock: hefner knows about that! 15:40:39 PissedNumlock: also, dto1 wrote a nice game that plays sounds 15:40:41 dia100daly pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96209 15:41:05 hi PissedNumlock 15:41:15 I want to add the value of text-editor 15:41:23 hi 15:41:24 antifuchs: ping 15:41:31 am I supposed to know you or are you just being friendly? 15:41:54 good day, fe[nl]ix 15:42:05 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.90.210] has joined #lisp 15:42:16 hi antifuchs 15:42:38 sup? 15:42:52 antifuchs: do you know if somebody published photos of the meeting ? 15:42:57 -!- naeg [~naeg@111-166-19-84.nbiserv.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1.1] 15:43:11 I don't know of any 15:43:19 would be interested in seeing them, as well (: 15:43:28 PissedNumlock: I was working on bindings for ffmpeg, but the experience was kind of hellish. Most of the binding stuff is done, though. 15:43:36 antifuchs: I can't remember which one of the attendees was Simon Peter Nicholls 15:43:58 I don't think there's any other work out there for a general-purpose 'media player' library. 15:44:16 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 15:44:23 k ty, guess ill just do a syscall to mplayer 15:44:43 there are also fmod bindings 15:44:44 tall guy, blond hair. he was the british one (: 15:46:17 PissedNumlock: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/software/mixalot/mixalot.html can play mp3 files and wave data from memory, if you use linux. if you want to play video, call mplayer. 15:47:06 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:47:09 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:48:15 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:28 ty 15:52:57 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:52:59 morning 15:53:09 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@adsl174.uninet.ee] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:54:43 hello Fare, splittist 15:54:54 hi fe[nl]ix 15:55:01 where's your rexecd at? 15:55:12 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:13 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 15:55:15 Hello all. 15:55:20 did you make execve and cd their own instructions in your VM? 15:55:58 My computer died again, and this time it appears irredeemable. 15:56:08 :( 15:56:12 which computer was it? 15:56:52 My tablet. 15:56:52 Gemmazz [~Gemmazz@63.223.127.153] has joined #lisp 15:56:52 http://imgnow.info/DSC-1268236612.jpg does my ass look big? 15:56:54 -!- Gemmazz [~Gemmazz@63.223.127.153] has left #lisp 15:57:03 the HP one? 15:57:05 vng [~vng@123.20.113.126] has joined #lisp 15:57:07 Yeah. 15:57:09 :( 15:57:13 looked fragile 15:57:20 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:25 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:29 Something like 3 and a half years after purchase. 15:57:40 Fare: no, they're not separate instructions 15:57:42 Or maybe two and a half. 15:58:09 It's either blown something in the memory path, or it's taken to killing RAM.. 15:58:35 So now I'm down to using my old coLinux-on-winxp system. 15:58:55 And trying to figure out what to do. 15:58:59 out of warranty? 15:59:12 Of course! 15:59:29 Computers don't fail usefully within their warrantee period anyway. 15:59:41 rarely 16:00:52 had you backups? 16:00:53 nyef: on the bright side, you'll be able to play the win32 binary of my 7-day roguelike. 16:00:57 or is the disk still usable? 16:01:07 rsynnott: Disk is still usable, yes. 16:01:44 hefner: I try not to use this machine for anything more strenuous than web browsing, I'm afraid. 16:02:21 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 16:02:24 I'd have stuck the linux hard drive in here, were it not for it being a PATA machine and an SATA disk. 16:02:36 fe[nl]ix, shouldn't they be? 16:02:57 like, keep all instructions in the VM simple. 16:03:12 put any "intelligence" in combining them in the client. 16:03:25 the server only checking validity and executing. 16:03:37 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 16:04:15 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:18 nyef, you can use an external disk enclosure 16:04:49 I could, but that would entail buying such a thing. 16:05:25 Fare: there's no need to do that because CD isn't optional 16:05:26 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:40 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:05:54 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:06:08 Why is it that retail websites don't have any useful filter criteria for making purchasing decisions? Things like "not HP or Apple", "display resolution", etc. 16:06:10 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:41 nyef: it would make it to startlingly obvious that everything they sell is garbage 16:06:44 *too 16:06:49 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:07:06 fe[nl]ix, shouldn't CD be optional? And EXEC, too? 16:07:07 nyef: the computer retail business thrives on confusion 16:07:27 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:28 I say both should be optional. Default to / and continuing running server code... 16:07:31 "32-bit vs. 64-bit", "has virtualization support"? 16:08:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:08:13 Or the ability to select multiple options within a given category, "2GB of RAM -and- 3GB of RAM". 16:08:28 nyef, and sometimes the CPU number they give isn't on the official Intel site, and the processor "family" they are in have both 32- and 64- bit CPUs, VT- and non-VT- systems, etc. 16:08:43 nyef: you can almost safely assume that all non-Atom x86 chips are 64bit now 16:08:43 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 Quick slime question: has anyone tested what happens if there are more than 9 restarts in the debugger? 16:09:01 nyef, if you need old RAM, I have 512MB and 2GB thingies for you... 16:09:13 you can bring your computer at the BLM and we can try. 16:09:45 Fare: I doubt that will be necessary, but thank you. 16:10:02 I may end up with a desktop system at this rate. 16:12:01 desktop + SSH and X is lovely. 16:14:18 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:08 TR2N [email@89.180.223.61] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 Fare: IMO there's no need to do that 16:18:40 I'd really like it. It would make, say, Erlang-in-Lisp, nicer. 16:20:33 Hrm... A tolerable configuration for less than $1,000... If I knew it supported bluetooth. 16:20:45 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:12 -!- _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:21:19 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 16:21:26 Though, given that it's a custom build, not being able to tell them to leave out the hard drive is irritating. 16:21:56 Dimasj [~vaaakta@79.124.134.182] has joined #lisp 16:22:03 nyef: bt usb dongles can be had for very few dollars. 16:22:26 (oh, you're probably building a laptop. that would be pointless in this case) 16:22:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7574ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:38 Hi 16:22:50 slash__ [~Unknown@p4FF0ADEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:55 Fare: how would that be ? 16:23:12 -!- slash__ [~Unknown@p4FF0ADEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:14 Yeah, laptop. Were it a desktop, I'd try and use my existing usb dongle (which appears to be junk anyway). 16:23:26 lukego [~lukegorri@gprs57.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 16:23:59 -!- PuffTheMagic_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:24:02 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 16:24:02 -!- Dimasj [~vaaakta@79.124.134.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:09 -!- vng [~vng@123.20.113.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:09 slash__ [~Unknown@p4FF0ADEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:58 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:25:38 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1CA84.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:25:44 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:59 fe[nl]ix, to fork a new EiL worker, you'd connect to a master, and have it fork, etc. 16:28:46 I don't understand 16:29:38 vng [~vng@123.20.113.126] has joined #lisp 16:30:23 just like your rexecd, except instead of exec'ing a new program, I continue running Lisp code. 16:30:35 in the fork 16:30:46 and what's that got to do with the exec daemon ? 16:31:09 well, if you factored things the "right" way, we could have two things for the price of one. 16:31:55 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:32:08 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 -!- kephas [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:16 kephas [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:14 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@gprs57.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Quit: lukego] 16:34:03 both a dessert topping and a floor wax 16:34:28 Blkt [~user@93-33-129-171.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:34:59 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:35:10 Xach: I'll let the jury decide which is which. 16:36:58 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:37:21 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 16:37:26 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:46 seibel [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-195-178.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:10 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:38:53 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 16:39:06 Fare: I don't think I'm interested in that 16:39:12 at least not at this point 16:40:21 hi fe[nl]ix 16:40:39 Okay, looks like the memory that was in the machine when it failed last time is at least partly still good. 16:41:01 milanj [~milan@109.93.202.92] has joined #lisp 16:41:18 (I have it in a 32-bit machine that takes the same sort, though maxes out at 2 gigs instead of 4, and it's running memtest86+ now.) 16:41:40 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:41:53 lispm [~joswig@e177127226.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:36 hi Blkt 16:46:08 is a really interesting article on adapting interpreters to work well with tracing JITs. 16:46:24 So, should I be annoyed or relieved that my RAM still seems to be good? 16:46:58 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:15 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.90.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:00 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 -!- silenius [~jl@dslb-088-072-192-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:54 sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 16:50:27 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 16:50:54 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:18 -!- tfb_ [~tfb@212.183.140.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:55:00 -!- CrazEd_ is now known as CrazEd 16:55:31 -!- CrazEd is now known as Guest37097 16:57:09 kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:36 -!- vng [~vng@123.20.113.126] has quit [Quit: vng] 16:59:15 -!- maus [~maus@123.20.1.47] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:21 nyef: annoyed, I'd say. if the RAM is good, something far less easily replaceable must be broken 17:00:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:01:12 fe[nl]ix: But that was the assumption ever since it died this morning, if I get the same failure mode with a second set of RAM, it's probably not the RAM at fault. 17:02:22 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:52 So I have 4 gigs of probably-good ram, and no computer to use it in. 17:05:16 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:05:22 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 17:08:55 lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-84-226-54-149.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:12:26 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:45 skv [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 17:13:47 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-77-153.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:14:05 Heh. Looks like the reason this other machine can't take 4 gigs has more to do with addressing over the entire system than to do with each slot maxing out at 1 gig. 17:14:18 evening 17:15:11 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:15:11 is there a preferred open source license for the lisp community? 17:15:19 MIT 17:16:05 -!- mathk [~Miranda@78.155.152.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:07 that's dlowe's community 17:16:14 lol 17:17:12 :p They seem to be mostly MIT or BSD to me 17:17:19 Harag: is public domain a possibility? Saves some thinking, after all. 17:17:53 i like the WTF licence 17:17:58 after some quick reading I am leaning towards BSD or MIT 17:18:07 splittist: that's strange talk coming from a lawyer... :-) 17:18:56 jsnell: life would be so much easier without all these needy (internal) clients, you know! 17:21:07 -!- bjthuwxf [~user@125.39.108.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:22 that said, I thought pd had that strange german problem 17:22:12 hence my question 17:23:06 hard to know in advance whether you're going to have some german contributors in the future 17:23:48 and then you have to think :-) 17:23:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL <---- best license EVAR! 17:24:09 But also - it is a problem for whom? For people who want to use the code in a certain way and fear german contributors having second thoughts or something. 17:24:18 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:24:57 isn't the only real problem that there is no PD in Germany, so your german contributers must retain copyright? 17:25:21 or transfer it 17:25:39 or transfer to an entity that is _not_ 'the people' :) 17:25:45 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-129-171.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:27:37 So - are you choosing a licence to ensure that your Awesome Project is going to be part of the core DNA of the Future(TM), or just so you don't have to think about it and get hassled in the future? 17:28:21 right, but then it's not really pd anymore. and you'll either ignore it, or license parts of the program differently, or change the license 17:29:13 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 17:29:14 drewc: that WFT license is confusing in its brevity 17:29:48 splittist: its already the core DNA 17:30:14 drewc, better than the bugroff licence? 17:30:16 I think MIT is great exactly for the no hassle part. I've never heard anybody whine about something having an MIT license, have heard whining about *GPL, pd, Apache, etc :-) 17:30:30 jsnell: I would say that for a 'set it and forget it' approach PD would work - fewest number of people hassling you in future about forks, inclusion in commercial software etc. 17:32:13 jsnell: and, yes, MIT is pretty good, too. And reminds you that if you're putting your name on the software to include a disclaimer. 17:32:40 Harag: good (: 17:33:05 (everyone: IANYL) 17:34:02 that's good, would've hated to get the 315*$200 bill 17:34:53 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35:07 s/*/^/ 17:35:30 konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177127226.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:37:10 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:49 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:17 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:24 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 17:40:29 tali713 [tali713@x-160-94-88-29.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 17:41:24 lispm [~joswig@g224046223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:07 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 17:48:11 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:49:08 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:11 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 17:58:19 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.23] has joined #lisp 18:01:13 -!- tali713 [tali713@x-160-94-88-29.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:03:01 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:06:15 -!- milanj [~milan@109.93.202.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:10:30 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082F7B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:13 milanj [~milan@79.101.138.165] has joined #lisp 18:11:40 orm [~a126ddab@gateway/web/freenode/x-yfgzuopgibxejtgz] has joined #lisp 18:11:52 how could youall abandon efnet?! 18:12:21 orm: Go away. 18:12:25 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B5A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12:35 ... 18:12:40 was that necessary? 18:16:52 orm: GIGO, garbage in, garbage out. :) 18:17:05 _deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 18:17:21 it was a legitimate question 18:17:25 =p 18:17:52 kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 18:19:45 orm: you mean, like 10 years ago? 18:19:49 or more 18:20:10 what? 18:24:46 orm: how could you abandon the eris net? 18:25:04 im in efnet 18:25:07 atm 18:25:24 orm: heh. noob 18:25:45 here, efnet, and chatnets 18:27:33 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:28:08 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:29:15 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:29 -!- bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:32:50 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:33:12 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-209-171.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:35:00 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-204-244.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:49 tali713 [tali713@x-160-94-88-29.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 18:37:57 tmdhat [~savio@jagat.xored.org] has joined #lisp 18:38:12 -!- xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:38:45 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:09 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 18:39:18 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-8433.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:38 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:43:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:44:07 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.23] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:44:19 alexbobp [~alex@66.112.249.238] has joined #lisp 18:45:10 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has joined #lisp 18:45:18 LOL NETSPLITS! 18:45:18 scottydoo: Coooo! 18:45:36 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:45:43 orm: Go away, for real. 18:46:19 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-44-132.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:47:38 oh great. potential flamefest with comp.lang.perl. Although, they seem rather civilized. 18:47:54 Language wars! 18:47:58 *alexbobp* puts on his helmet and armor 18:48:02 To battle! 18:48:16 *alexbobp* equips his Funcional Lance and mounts his combat bicycle 18:48:20 *Functional 18:48:27 alexbobp: Be quiet. 18:48:49 Xach: NO U 18:48:58 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178214189.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:49:22 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:49:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:51:01 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:35 _rata_ [~c8594549@gateway/web/freenode/x-likjkvitcgfparlk] has joined #lisp 18:54:32 -!- alexbobp [~alex@66.112.249.238] has left #lisp 18:55:21 metasyntax [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:11 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 18:59:49 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-222.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:03:45 slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:27 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:33 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: 2intellectual4me] 19:13:19 Right, I'm gone. 19:13:25 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Offline for a while.] 19:13:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:18:27 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:19:02 Blubbiers [~webmaster@srbk-5d801c42.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:05 http://kathrin.myphotos.cc/index.php?uid=5p2rll 19:19:06 -!- Blubbiers [~webmaster@srbk-5d801c42.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 19:26:57 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 19:27:53 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:54 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:27:54 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 19:28:26 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 -!- scottydoo [~scott@66.112.250.211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:08 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:36 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:35:03 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 19:39:40 -!- frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:44:10 Good evening! 19:44:15 #lisp is getting pretty strange these days. 19:44:22 I sure hope it's temporary. 19:44:44 .... 19:45:10 Why is it strange? 19:45:31 Blubbiers, alexbobp, scottydoo, etc. 19:45:39 probably an efnet invasion. 19:46:33 Ah. 19:49:43 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-13-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:13 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:50:32 jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:51:22 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:51:37 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:12 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:32 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:58:44 jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:01:46 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.6] has joined #lisp 20:02:40 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:04:03 -!- wormwood_ is now known as wormwood 20:06:05 levente_meszaros pasted "lexical trace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96215 20:06:15 I also have some opinions about people who create more problems than they solve, but I'll keep those observations to myself for now. 20:06:22 -!- _rata_ [~c8594549@gateway/web/freenode/x-likjkvitcgfparlk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:06:26 addled [~addled@77.208.91.235] has joined #lisp 20:06:34 any idea on how to improve the output of that? 20:08:03 levente_meszaros annotated #96215 "quicksort lexical trace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96215#1 20:08:09 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:09:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:22 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:09:55 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:59 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:10:32 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:09 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:34 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 20:12:12 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-177.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:30 hello beach 20:12:43 hey fe[nl]ix! What's up? 20:13:34 _rata_ [~c8594549@gateway/web/freenode/x-zmvpnkcahkodoetm] has joined #lisp 20:14:44 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 20:17:51 Anyone out there using CLSQL? Do you recommend using UFFI or CFFI for the glue? 20:18:01 there's hardly anyone on efnet 20:18:10 at least not on #lisp there 20:18:40 rpg: I recommend you abandon the relational model and use the progress of 40 years of development in programming languages. 20:19:16 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:35 jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:20:01 beach: alas, we have volumes of data that will not permit that. 20:20:33 beach: Nor will our customers accept that we stop all progress and spend a year using the progress of 40 years of development in programming languages. ;-) 20:20:42 rpg: That might happen, yes. How large? 20:21:06 we have clsql users at work 20:21:13 I can ask them about their setup, but not before tomorrow 20:21:52 beach: I don't have good figures right now, since I'm not at the test deployment. This is for our intrusion detection stuff. I know we are on the end of a pipe that potentially is 1TB/day, but it's heavily downsampled before we see it... 20:21:58 Krystof: Thanks. 20:22:02 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:22:29 I suspect a missing :version requirement on dependencies in CLSQL... 20:22:51 konr` [~user@201.82.140.74] has joined #lisp 20:22:56 rpg: You might be one of the few people I know for whome the relational model is still a good choice. 20:23:20 beach: what alternatives would you suggest? I have been looking for alternatives but I have not been able to find something that would do stuff similar to group by out of the box 20:23:28 rpg: Usually, I get an answer more like "Oh, we have several tenths of megabytes per year". 20:23:47 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:52 UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 20:23:56 Harag: Keep the data in memory using a decent programming language like Lisp. 20:24:13 ... and sync to disk every once in a while? 20:24:18 -!- dia100daly [~sdiawara@212.99.78.121] has left #lisp 20:24:34 -!- konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:24:48 tic: Yeah, and if required, some incremental checkpoint. 20:24:59 beach: and write group by and sort by hand for each report i need...eish 20:25:46 rpg: Uffi, ideally we are trying to make it capable of using either, but there has been some recent development that has not yet been ported into cffi's otherwise excellent compat library 20:25:49 Harag: 'fraid I don't know what you are talking about. Probably due to my ignorance. But I am willing to listen. 20:26:00 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:27:09 -!- konr` is now known as konr 20:28:17 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224046223.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:17 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@243.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:31 beach: my problem with the in memory approach is that its great for reading and writing data (aka a record) but trying to do reports on the data is difficult ...at least for me...(report = querying sorting and grouping data in tabular form) 20:30:39 beach: maybe its because I have never used anything but relational model db's all my life 20:30:45 Harag: What's wrong with #'sort? 20:31:29 Harag: my guess is use a generic function and some sort of LOOP/map along with FORMAT 20:32:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:32:34 <_rata_> beach, but what if the data is much larger than the memory you have available? 20:32:37 I've always wanted to look at CL-PREVALENCE 20:34:01 UnwashedMeme: Just trying to compile UFFI on 64-bit SBCL on linux, and it fails 26 of 78 tests.... 20:34:32 _rata_: I just said that that's (currently) one of the valid reasons to stay relational. But my university bought Oracle for student data, and I calculated that 100 years of such data would fit in the (current) memory of my laptop. This is why I am being cautious when people go relational databases without making even a back-of-envelope calculation. 20:35:14 UnwashedMeme: and trying to load clsql-mysql on top blows up with an FFI error that crashes SBCL :-( 20:35:22 _rata_: But that's just because current paging algorithms don't seem to be adapted to the way data are used. 20:36:30 <_rata_> ok, i didnt read that you said that was a reason 20:36:50 _rata_: And I regularly have people saying thing like "..but we have *massive* amounts of data..." but when I have them do the calculation, it is pretty small. 20:36:51 <_rata_> what's a paging algorithm? 20:37:09 carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.227] has joined #lisp 20:37:28 _rata_: The algorithm that is used by your virtual memory, so that you can pretend that your main memory is the size of your disk. 20:37:45 <_rata_> yeah... that's true... common databases are so huge as the owners think 20:37:47 <_rata_> ahh ok 20:38:18 <_rata_> but biological databases are normally very large 20:38:28 hello. does anybody know whether cl-xmpp supports multiuser-chats? 20:38:30 <_rata_> *common databases aren't... 20:38:38 _rata_: This shouldn't be controversial. Multics, some 40 years ago, made no distinction between disk and main memory. Unix, unfortunately has made us aware of that silly distinction by imposing its memory semantics. 20:39:00 schoppenhauer: sort of 20:39:08 stassats: that is? 20:39:22 -!- orm [~a126ddab@gateway/web/freenode/x-yfgzuopgibxejtgz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:39:41 that's all i can say 20:40:42 what do you mean by "sort of"? 20:40:46 does it have problems? 20:40:48 jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-ylmmlgehgajvodho] has joined #lisp 20:41:10 _rata_: The only question is whether a general-purpose database-access algorithm can do better than a general-purpose paging algorithm. I seriously doubt it, especially since if you abandon the relational model, you can improve locality, and thus improve the situation for the paging algorithm. 20:41:47 i meant "you can't say that it doesn't support it, nor that it does support it" 20:41:59 Or in short "Mu". 20:41:59 jcowan, memo from mejja: Spreadsheet http://tinyurl.com/scheme-s5 is missing two SRFIs for mit-scheme. See http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme for a list. 20:42:21 rpg: where did you fetch them from? 20:42:46 _rata_: Worse, many generations now of students have "forgotten" about the history of operating-system research, so they think that this silly distinction (based on tape drives and core memories) is a necessity in all operating systems. 20:43:10 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:44:06 <_rata_> i have never used that doesn't make that distinction 20:44:20 So... are there any computing systems alive that does not have that distinction? 20:44:54 _rata_: As a result, we don't take advantage of a major way of improving the structure of our software, with many failed software projects as a result, and then we blame something else, whereas we should blame our own ignorance of software history. 20:44:58 UnwashedMeme: Pulled UFFI from b9.com 20:45:26 *tic* can sense the bitterness 20:45:35 tic: AS/400 as far as I have been told. 20:45:36 UnwashedMeme: I actually think I might have a clue --- does UFFI (and in particular its tests) assume that it can use *load-truename* to find the c libraries? 20:45:46 beach, oh? I'll have to look that up. 20:45:51 Ogedei [~user@e178231071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:54 beach: it may all be rediscovered some day. 20:45:58 tic: It's largely a trade secret. 20:46:00 UnwashedMeme: If so, it will mess up when ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS is in use, as with us. 20:46:11 otoh, the concept of a file is useful, isn't it? 20:46:12 tic: I worked on Multics, and I have only seen a deterioration since. 20:46:26 beach, coolio. 20:46:27 prxq: Not without help. 20:46:50 prxq: The concept of a stream is useful. 20:47:33 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:35 even the Swedish Wikipedia page says IBM System i has "memory allocation lasting /forever/" 20:47:51 beach: I mean a glob of data on disk with definite boundaries and a name. 20:48:04 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229151248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:48:14 prxq: No, that's not different from a vector. 20:48:28 beach: "worked on Multics" as in used it, or helped to develop it? 20:48:35 beach: but the as400 looks at its "file system" like its a relational model, I can write sql queries against it 20:49:05 beach: "worse is better" 20:49:14 rpg: not sure, but that seems like a decent hypothesis 20:49:25 jcowan: I was a user, but at the time, the distinction was not clear. I worked in close contact with some significant Multics system developers. 20:49:25 stassats: Hodie natus est radici frater, too. 20:49:33 UnwashedMeme: I've had this problem before with CLSQL. Now I have to remember how I fixed it.... 20:49:44 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@guestlaptop-22.cis.uoguelph.ca] has joined #lisp 20:49:59 Harag: I am afraid I know nothing more about it, because the documents are secret. 20:50:00 UnwashedMeme: we badly need A-B-L because we support the same application on ACL and SBCL. 20:50:02 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:05 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0ADEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:13 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0ADEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:50:28 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:50:51 stassats: Exactly! 20:51:00 rpg: http://clsql.b9.com/manual/appendix.html#foreignlibs might be a start 20:51:04 single-level storage, indeed. 20:52:51 tic: Yeah. Multics got it right for its time; an address was a pair because the hardware still had problems with the address space. Now that we have a 64-bit address space, there is no reason why the disks wouldn't be included in that space in the vast majority of OSes. 20:53:28 there's mmap 20:53:32 tic: Multics still couldn't pass a pointer to another process, but today we can do that, making processes essentially obsolete. 20:54:12 stassats: Sure, now we just have to make all of Linux use it, rather than creating new processes. Wait, that would no longer be Linux now would it? 20:54:22 That, btw, is why the shell is so named. 20:54:58 UnwashedMeme: Brilliant! thanks so much! 20:54:59 In Multics it literally was a "shell" that mapped your program into its address space, called it, and unmapped it on return. 20:55:34 *prxq* has a hard time picturing a system without that memory/disk distinction 20:56:20 I know the objection is that processes provide security by providing different address spaces, but that is sort of twisting the issue around, or using heavy artillery to kill mosquitos (now what language is that idiom from?). 20:56:48 how would cl look like on such a system? I mean, suppose I have some data. How would I store it, and from where would I get it back? 20:56:53 prxq: As long as you can give names to stuff, it doesn't matter, right? 20:57:02 jcowan: Multics didn't use the concept of a shell. 20:57:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:57:27 i know "shooting sparrows with a cannon" 20:57:45 beach: http://www.multicians.org/shell.html 20:57:58 rme: sure. So you'd give names to stuff youl'd like to keep, but then access it as we do today when we have something in ram? 20:58:35 prxq: There were `segments' in Multics, that were organized in a hierarchy (which is bad for a different reason) that were sort of like files, but that were accessed like vectors with addreses like . 20:59:28 beach: I believe it is a chinese proverb. 20:59:31 beach: you might want to look at http://www.multicians.org/multicians.html and see if you are there. 20:59:51 jcowan: I maintain that the word "shell" was not used by Multics. 21:00:18 do any of the persistence libs that are available reproduce that, er, feeling? 21:00:32 jcowan: I am pretty sure I am not there (because I haven't done anything about it). 21:01:01 lint1 [lint@103.147-224-87.telenet.ru] has joined #lisp 21:01:06 stassats: Thanks! 21:01:30 saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-27-43-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:44 "using a hammer to crack a nut" 21:01:50 beach: that idiom seems to be universal 21:01:51 beach, the problem, even though we have 64-bit addressing, is taht of persistency, I think. 21:02:09 http://www.multicians.org/mform.html if you wish to be added 21:02:13 Krystof: that's what i usually do 21:02:37 "shooting fish in a barrel" 21:02:45 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:47 depends on the nut 21:02:48 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:51 jcowan: In Multics, there was a dynamic linker that would assign a segment number to your segment (names as >udd>..>..> just like Unix, but with > instead of /) the first time you attempted to access it. 21:02:58 jcowan: that's a bit different. 21:03:27 prxq: Can you explain the difference? 21:03:29 beach: what happened when the computer was turned off? 21:03:33 i first heard the cannon/mosquito thing in the context of a confuscian proverb, although that may have been apocryphal. 21:03:54 And when it comes to Brazil nuts (Bertholletia excelsa), you do want a hammer. 21:04:20 runtime linking sounds sexy. 21:04:30 stassats: me too 21:04:33 jcowan: shooting fish in a barrel is "easy". Shooting sparrows with a cannon is "excessive" 21:04:41 Ah. 21:04:57 beach: Yes, but not what I meant. 21:05:29 prxq: Multics lost its connections between segment numbers and segments. Worse, segment numbers for a particular segment were different in different processes (though, a process was not created for each command, just for each user) so you couldn't pass a pointer to another process. But now we can do that with a 64-bit address space. 21:05:44 wow. multics sourcecode is open now. 21:05:46 that's pretty neat. 21:05:52 jcowan: Sorry, then I missed what you meant. 21:05:58 who owns the genera source? 21:06:00 Fade: Yeah. 21:06:05 "The idea of having the command processing shell be an ordinary slave program came from the Multics design, and a predecessor program on CTSS by Louis Pouzin called RUNCOM, the source of the ".rc" suffix on some Unix configuration files. The first time I remember the name "shell" for this function was in a Multics design document by Doug Eastwood (of BTL). Commands that return a value into the command line were called "evaluated commands" in t 21:06:05 he original Multics shell, which used square brackets where Unix uses backticks." 21:06:09 Fade: Symbolics. 21:06:57 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:06 jcowan: I maintain that it wasn't called "shell" in Multics. My memory is pretty bad, so I can be wrong on this, but I seriously doubt it. 21:07:08 symbolics.com appears to be in the possession of a domain squatter. 21:07:23 they sold it 21:07:29 UnwashedMeme: If I find a UFFI patch, can I send it to uffi-devel? Looks like that hasn't seen any traffic for a year. 21:07:31 Well, at least some Multics folks called it so. 21:07:52 http://www.symbolics-dks.com is what you want 21:08:03 jcowan: In particular, the Multics "command-processor" did no such things as expand file names (why would it?). 21:08:10 thanks 21:08:18 jcowan: Name two! 21:08:48 *sigh* cool things Multics aren't written these days. 21:08:53 +like 21:09:07 now now 21:09:11 Doug Eastwood, Tom Van Vleck. 21:09:39 tic: yeah, people are busy reimplementing boring Unix again and again. 21:10:08 Most of Multics was boring, and indeed the Multics->Unix transition was fairly easy for humans (though not for code). 21:10:13 s/was boring/is boring 21:10:24 It's just what was left behind, the road not taken, that winds up being interesting now. 21:10:25 rpg: that's not a tragedy. I've found that in US work hours, kmr answers usually within minutes 21:10:48 fe[nl]ix: so you send direct to kmr instead of to the mailing lists? 21:11:10 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:11:16 rme, yup, or somehting. 21:11:21 BeOS was exciting. 21:11:35 rpg: that's what I did, rather than subscribing to uffi-devel and clsql-devel 21:11:53 tic: Right. I was told once when I suggested a research project on OSes that "that's a closed subject, the world has pretty much agreed [what's the system the HURD is based on again?]". I wish the guy from the Dream Machine were back in business (sorry, again my memory is failing me). 21:11:55 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 21:12:09 Mach? 21:12:10 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 21:12:18 Krystof: Thanks! 21:13:03 *beach* envies people with good memories, like Krystof and pretty much the rest of the world 21:14:16 The coolest OS research I ever saw was Massalin's Synthesis kernel. 21:14:16 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7574ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:20 trying to find info o the dream machine, but the page on Wikipedia probably refers to something else. 21:14:41 beach: just page it to a disc 21:14:42 That had hack value. 21:14:43 beach: and talking about switching to L4 for many years 21:15:05 jcowan: Unix had to abandon the unification of main memory and disk simply because the computers they used didn't have wide enough pointers. 21:16:03 beach: but now one could use (in principle) the whole address space with persistent object, right? 21:16:25 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:26 so I presume that after some time, that kind of thing will start popping up 21:16:33 stassats: My memory? Gee, it took me several second to realize that that's what you were talking about. It's not funny, but instead a main handicap that will prevent me from ever being (say) a VP of this university. 21:16:43 prxq, C:\Documents and Settings\.... - I doubt it. 21:16:58 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:17:26 prxq: Yes, as shown by [another system the name of which I can't remember; Shapiro et al]. 21:18:05 Coyotos 21:18:05 prxq: But they ran out of funding, so they had to go "security" instead. Very sad. 21:18:13 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CDD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:18 fe[nl]ix: No, the one before that. 21:18:29 EROS ? 21:18:36 Right! 21:18:46 beach: you need to outsource your memory 21:18:50 [what would I do without #lisp?] 21:19:02 (I mean to not #lisp :-) 21:19:11 Oh, where then? 21:19:21 a moleskin? 21:19:39 Krystof: I remember all the important stuff! 21:19:45 [to me] 21:19:57 Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:09 -!- Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:20:09 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 21:20:20 how's your org-mode experiment? Converted yet? 21:20:46 -!- lint1 [lint@103.147-224-87.telenet.ru] has left #lisp 21:20:47 I can't remember! :) 21:21:35 you can tattoo things you want to remember, like in that movie 21:22:28 Is there a good way to grab *compile-file-pathname* in a file so that it can be remembered later, at load time? 21:22:28 Memento ? 21:22:53 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-192-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:22:58 rpg: #.*compile-file-pathname*? 21:23:19 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:51 Krystof: ah. yes, thanks. 21:24:16 stassats: I think that might be one of the main problems then. I don't particularly *want* to remember to do all the crap that people tell me I have to do. 21:25:22 allen's gtd 21:25:54 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:26:21 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:26:23 More seriously, I think the CL memory model is an excellent "model" for a future OS, with threads replacing processes. We just need to implement it :). 21:26:37 "get rid of things to do" would be better 21:26:55 stassats: that's part of the program :) 21:27:10 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:26 stassats: In France, that works quite well. You follow danb's advice and manage our emails as a stack, and the ones that don't get treated within the time limit, you count on the other person to remind you. If you receive no reminder, you can safely delete the message. 21:28:55 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-48.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:31:19 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-44-132.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:33:47 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:05 -!- seibel [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-195-178.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:17 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 21:34:17 -!- slather_ [~slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:45 slather_ [~slather@haybaler.sackheads.org] has joined #lisp 21:35:00 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:15 speaking of which, beach, have you read "Getting Things Done" by David Allen? I just started reading it. Looks very promising. 21:35:18 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 21:37:17 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-6.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:23 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-6.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:38:00 speaking of which, beach, have you read "Getting Things Done" by David Allen? I just started reading it. Looks very promising. 21:38:24 tic: It's like a lot of those books; it has several very good ideas, suitable for a magazine article, padded out to book lenght. 21:38:33 s/lenght/length/ 21:38:35 rpg, have you raed it? 21:38:44 read, too. (too late in the evening, it seems) 21:38:54 tic: Yes. Found it helpful, but by the end I was skipping many pages. 21:38:55 tic: I think I must have. But all those publications seem to rely on things that aren't true for people like me. 21:39:06 beach, bummer. 21:39:13 rpg, well, then it wasn't that bad, now was it? 21:39:29 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:39:40 I like the emphasis on actions->results rather than listing the projects when it comes to a TODO list. 21:39:51 tic: No. I just get annoyed by those diffuse "manager books." I have little time to spare for such things, and I like them to get to the point. 21:40:07 rpg, *nod* 21:40:11 beach, CL has a memory model??? 21:40:21 You expect me to read that? Summarize it for me in one word or less. 21:40:36 Heh. 21:40:36 Fare: sure, good enough for a modern OS. 21:40:46 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:40:58 well, then CL doesn't have a concurrency model. 21:41:12 http://musariada.mus.uea.ac.uk/~richard/orgmode-gtd.pdf # one of our students gave an org/gtd presentation 21:41:34 "consequences are undefined if two people use a hash-table at the same time" is not a very good memory model. 21:41:58 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-204-244.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:42:04 neither is "there is a set of global objects accessible by all processes, that deeply modify the system's behavior for all processes" 21:42:40 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 21:43:04 if you mean "a fine-grained graph of object is a better abstraction than a flat array of bits", then agreed. 21:44:07 Fare: Sounds accurate. 21:44:10 though between the JVM and .NET, much progress has been made as compared to the CL VM, yet it's not clear how best to provide such a memory abstraction in a way that fits everyone's needs. 21:44:39 confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:41 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Quit: I'll be back B)] 21:45:03 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-157-25.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:11 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:34 Interesting presentation. I'll have to remember reading that tomorrow. 21:47:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@e179223122.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:16 tic: which one? 21:47:18 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:47:45 beach, the one on Getting Things Done and Org mode. 21:48:02 tic: got it. 21:48:26 that's one of my main problem: how to store "things that might be useful later" and categorize/tag them properl. 21:48:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:47 Fare: Thank you for using the word "needs" here. In fact it is my opinion that what we are told by the software industry is not what they need but what they think that they need. 21:48:50 rpg: http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql/ is probably a better list at this point 21:49:37 UnwashedMeme: thanks. Still grappling with how to cache the value of *compile-file-truename* at compile time and stash it in the compiled file for use at load time.... 21:49:45 Fare: So it would be a big mistake to ask those people what they "need" because they would tell you instead what they think they need. 21:49:56 UnwashedMeme: Ah. Wait. Better idea occurs to me... 21:50:41 rpg: what's the problem with #.? 21:51:04 stassats: (defvar *my-pathname* #.*compile-file-truename*) ? 21:51:10 Fare: In particular, there will be *lots* of people telling you that they "need" the relational model (just like my university, as I told you before), but that's not the case at all, and it's all a mistake based on people's inability to do a small back-of-envelope calculation. 21:51:43 stassats: I was trying to convince myself I couldn't get into trouble with that... 21:53:53 (or #.*compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) 21:54:11 rpg: i've used approaches like that in the past 21:54:23 stassats: the problem is that I want /only/ *compile-file-truename* and /never/ *load-truename*. 21:55:28 _you_ want, what if somebody else wants to LOAD it? 21:55:37 stassats: they are SoL. 21:55:58 stassats: the problem is that the binaries will be moved away from the position of the source files, and it's the source file position that I need. 21:56:25 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:56:35 (or #.*compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) works in both cases, what's the problem? 21:56:37 stassats: So I need to latch the source file pathname at compile time and read it at load time. 21:57:03 you're talking about asdf-binary-locations, right? 21:57:03 rpg: eval-when ;) 21:57:10 Well, *we* have a largish database of tens of GB of data, and it all fits in memory, these days. 21:57:12 load-time-value? 21:57:19 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:57:40 Ralith: I think I want the opposite of load-time-value --- compile-time-value. 21:57:46 stassats: Yes, that's right. 21:58:10 rpg: isn't #. good enough for that? 21:58:13 you was already pointed more than once towards #. 21:58:18 damn, were 21:58:21 rpg: compile-time and macro-expansion-time are pretty close. 21:58:33 stassats, Ralith My use of #. causes a crash at load-time. 21:58:43 rpg: O.o 21:58:44 I guess my point is that agreeing that data should be represented as a graph of objects is one thing, but agreeing on an execution model including concurrency, etc., in a way that everyone is happy sharing the same graph, is quite another thing. 21:58:45 rpg: *load* time? 21:59:31 pkhuong: Yes, I think the problem is that I need to propagate the variable value out.... 21:59:35 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:40 -!- skv [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:00:42 Fare: I agree. And I particularly agree that what seemed like *huge* yesterday is quite reasonable today. 22:00:42 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:00:48 rpg: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (defvar ....)) maybe? Not tested but I've seen something like this before. 22:01:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:01:51 OK, that's it. Got the #. positioned properly and it works now. Thanks for the help 22:03:24 whew. A-B-L is the best thing in the world... until it isn't. 22:03:36 rpg: will you be on IRC tomorrow? I'll request your help to refactor the texinfo documentation for ASDF. 22:03:54 I think we're essentially code-complete for ASDF 2.0, and documentation is the main obstacle to a release. 22:04:23 Fare: intermittently, yes. 22:04:35 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:39 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:04:53 (that, and more testing on more platforms) 22:04:58 I wish we could have fixed the inter-system dependency problem, but it's baked /so/ deeply into the object model. 22:05:16 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:17 rpg, I thought you had fixed it? 22:05:37 Fare: I wish I had an excuse to come to Cambridge --- I'd love to sit down in a room and walk over the launchpad list and either clear or postpone. 22:05:49 as in, always follow all dependencies. 22:05:49 Fare: No. I could only fix the INTRA-system (module) dependencies. 22:05:49 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-54.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:05:50 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661bc0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 22:05:52 -!- tali713 [tali713@x-160-94-88-29.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:58 rpg, come to the next BLM :) 22:07:05 Fare: Inter system doesn't work because of the odd way we use (PERFORM OP SYSTEM) to mean "perform whatever final actions need to be done to do OP on SYSTEM." This leads to the fact that OPERATION-DONE-P ignores dependencies (checked only in TRAVERSE). 22:07:29 OMG 22:07:30 I haven't had the time to sit down at a piece of scratch paper and figure out how to fix that. 22:07:33 ok 22:07:38 let's not fix it in ASDF. 22:07:50 if you come to Cambridge, let's discuss XCVB, too :) 22:08:06 Fare --- I will be back in about 120 seconds... 22:08:55 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-115-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:06 -!- confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: confounds] 22:09:19 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-115-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:09:57 whoops sorry --- hazards of working @ home. 22:10:18 rpg: yeah, tell me about it...distraction central here, too. 22:10:36 Fare: I don't know how to fix that in ASDF without messing up backwards compatibility. 22:11:04 rme: must provide food to hungry school-returning children... 22:11:34 Fare: well, actually not so much --- I think it may be possible to introduce a kind of pre-op for the systems. But it's likely to be kludgy. 22:11:47 rpg, once again, let's not "fix" ASDF more than backwards compatibility allows. For future build improvements, I'd rather we focus on something new, like XCVB. 22:12:07 *rme* attempts to broker a peace deal over a Hungry Hungry Hippos dispute. 22:12:24 Fare: well, if I can make this work, it would be backwards compatible, but I agree with your principle. 22:12:37 And I certainly wouldn't hold back release of ASDF2 for this. 22:15:29 rme: like the ones in http://beatonna.livejournal.com/130174.html? (: 22:15:54 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:42 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:16:52 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-157-25.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:17:09 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 22:18:24 antifuchs: Heh. Those are the ones. It's not a childhood game, it's a foundation for addiction! 22:18:25 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-242-15.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:36 they will never be satisfied! 22:18:57 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:04 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@guestlaptop-22.cis.uoguelph.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19:50 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-34.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:19:54 Fare: Am I right in thinking there's no way to get the equivalent of :version matching using OPERATE? 22:24:08 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:44 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:24:51 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 22:24:52 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:24 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:25:26 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.153.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:26:26 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-77-153.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:26:38 Fare: the problem with that is that one must call OPERATE in order to set up the environment in which a system definition is READ --- there's no way to specify a system-load dependency. 22:27:04 E.g., there's no way for CLSQL to say that it needs UFFI >= 1.8.0 22:27:30 -!- dash_ [~dash@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:55 Suggest that XCVB should not rely on reading arbitrary lisp in its system definitions.... 22:28:10 seconded. 22:28:27 Fare, is there something like asdf:test-system in XCVB? 22:29:16 levente_meszaros, not yet 22:29:27 levente_meszaros, but I have plans for something like that 22:29:41 recently I failed to implement (asdf:test-system :coverage t) 22:30:09 rpg, I'm not reading arbitrary Lisp 22:30:17 it's a limited SEXP language 22:30:28 though I don't think I'm disabling #. 22:30:35 gtg 22:30:47 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:47 Fare: I hope to have the title and graf for you today, if it's not too late. 22:30:50 Crap. 22:31:49 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 22:32:24 locci [~nes@93.37.200.227] has joined #lisp 22:32:35 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-ylmmlgehgajvodho] has left #lisp 22:32:41 http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm <--- an interesting take on IDE, would be interesting to see it in Lisp :D 22:34:09 p_l, interesting 22:35:09 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:14 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:31 finally we are getting close to editing code through projections (or views if you like) 22:35:40 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 22:37:08 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:38:13 -!- saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-27-43-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:38:34 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:40:14 heh, "Bubbles, in contrast to windows, have minimal border decoration", I wouldn't call that minimal 22:40:28 -!- UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:41:36 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178231071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:41:40 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:12 ams [~ams@m83-188-233-67.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:42:35 hmm 22:42:39 that looks very interesting. 22:42:40 skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 22:43:24 I had a wierd UI idea a while back based on streams (I guess kinda like Haskell arrows 22:43:31 I wonder if a (useful) bastardized version of this could be done with emacs? 22:43:42 where you had input streams, like the keyboard, or an internet connection 22:43:56 saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-27-43-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:59 and then you would route those graphically into widgets that funged it or had side effects you wanted 22:44:50 so if you wanted to run website markup through a frontend script that sanitized it for XSS and CSRF attacks before piping it to your browser, you could do so, and see it on the screen. 22:44:54 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8932.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:44:56 I very much doubted it would be useful, of course. 22:45:23 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:45:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:42 since I was basically trying to extend the Unix command-line metaphors of i/o redirection and pipes into a grahpical environment. 22:45:56 and well, that's like cating a file to grep. 22:46:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:47:00 levente_meszaros: he's reinventing a window manager 22:47:19 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:54 enthymene: do you know LabView ? 22:48:00 no, I don't 22:48:04 I take it I should investigage 22:48:08 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-112-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:09 even, perhapse, investigate 22:48:10 fe[nl]ix, that's just a part of it, and not the interesting part 22:48:14 perhaps even 22:49:11 hmm 22:49:16 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:49:54 benny [~benny@i577A8CEB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:06 interesting, fe[nl]ix 22:52:17 -!- ams [~ams@m83-188-233-67.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Changing host] 22:52:17 ams [~ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has joined #lisp 22:53:21 -!- skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:53:25 skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 22:55:09 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:22 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:34 enthymene: a project I worked on some years ago had to hack an SNMP client in C and talk to labview through pipes because the SNMP widget was extremely expensive :D 22:57:07 -!- addled [~addled@77.208.91.235] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:41 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:46 arg, in the shell (sh but can uses others) how can I have the shell ignore, for example, middle single quote echo 'Hello 'all' I've tried escaping the middle quote (\') but to no avail :X 23:00:02 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 -!- _rata_ [~c8594549@gateway/web/freenode/x-zmvpnkcahkodoetm] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:00:48 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:02:13 wormwood: use #\" and escape all #\$ and #\" inside 23:02:22 and #\` 23:03:31 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03:39 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:20 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-48.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:06:00 wormwood: a fuckly solution is to construte three parts... 23:06:09 wormwood: echo 'foo'\''bar' 23:06:38 I'll give it a shot, thanks fe[nl]ix & ams 23:06:49 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:12 wormwood: note tha echo is one of the most unportable POSIX commandline programs ever... 23:07:59 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:12:44 #' is an alias for any function? 23:12:48 ysph` [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:01 clhs #' 23:13:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 23:13:16 it's a reader macro for (function ) 23:13:27 wormwood: here is a fun exercise, try getting echo to print the string "-n" 23:13:36 nice 23:13:48 wormwood: (portably) 23:14:32 (defun echo (string) (princ string)) (echo "-n") 23:14:35 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:14:48 -!- ysph` [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:12 ams: echo "\-n" | sed -e 's/\\//' 23:15:14 :( 23:15:18 wormwood: :) 23:15:21 good try 23:15:36 stassats: funny, but -n is implementation defined according to POSIX, so no. :) 23:15:56 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.74] has joined #lisp 23:16:01 i was suggesting that this is off-topic 23:16:35 suggesting suggestions are off-topic as well; fail. 23:16:50 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 23:18:37 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:34 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:22:30 I know this is heresy but anyone here use vim instead of emacs? If so which plugin would you recommend? 23:22:38 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 23:22:50 with regards to lisp coding :) 23:24:54 I remember the name Limp mentioned 23:26:21 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:26:24 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 23:27:23 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.99] has joined #lisp 23:27:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:27:46 adeht: thanks I'll see if I can get it up 23:27:53 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:28:54 I hope this wasn't a pun attempt ;) 23:32:59 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:34:05 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:18 -!- ams [~ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 23:37:49 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 23:37:57 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:38:30 -!- slash__ [~Unknown@p4FF0ADEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:40:20 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:41:27 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:10 -!- cmsimon [~Chris@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:35 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:44:30 gruseom [~daniel@d206-75-29-17.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:48 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:45:56 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:10 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-34.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:48:20 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.81.24] has joined #lisp 23:51:28 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:54:59 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:55:43 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:56 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:03 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-151-22.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:58:37 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit]