00:00:38 <_3b> kajic: also , loop for .. to (- x 1) -> loop for ... below x 00:00:45 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 00:01:22 <_3b> kajic: and (- x 1) -> (1- x) in general 00:02:06 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:02:23 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:28 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:11 <_3b> kajic: and (equal ... 0) -> (zerop ...) if you know it is a number, or (eql ... 0) if it can be something else 00:03:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:04:09 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-200-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:04:13 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-36-30.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:04:41 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:06:19 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:39 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-38-222.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:06:57 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:08:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:10:38 _3b: thanks! it looks like this now http://pastebin.com/WyZYJzPd and seems to work. how would you add a case for when x is 1 to return nil, is a cond ok for that? 00:10:49 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:11:34 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:11:43 <_3b> kajic: i meant (loop for divisor from 2 below x always (zerop ... )) 00:12:55 <_3b> for handling 1, cond would be OK, i'd probably use IF if that was the only special case though 00:13:15 gruseom [~daniel@d206-75-29-17.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:22 faure [~james@201-1-7-29.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:13:26 <_3b> actually, s/always/never/ 00:14:24 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:14:59 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:37 <_3b> lisppaste: url 00:15:38 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 00:15:49 <_3b> kajic: also, use that pastebin instead ^^ 00:17:48 _3b: Ah, I used (always (not ... when I realized it was inverted, but never is even better :) I will use that other pastebin in the future. 00:19:17 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:23:26 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:45 syamajala [~syamajala@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:31:40 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:31:43 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-72-132.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:02 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:16 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:33:51 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 00:35:57 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:39 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:45 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:37:53 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-672.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:39:34 kajic pasted "is-prime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96140 00:40:01 _3b: what about thereis? it seems better than never in this case? or have i gotten it backward somehow? 00:40:24 <_3b> better how? 00:41:05 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:28 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:43:14 <_3b> needing the NOT around it seems worse to me 00:43:22 _3b: well, if I understand it correctly thereis returns as soon as an iteration returns a non-nil value, whereas never will go through all iterations and make sure all return a nil value. not that my is-prime function is the most efficient one but i guess this way it has the chance to terminate sooner 00:43:43 <_3b> "The never construct terminates iteration the first time that the value of the supplied form is non-nil; " 00:44:02 Meh. (defun is-prime (x) (member x '(2 3 5 7 11))) ;; Works for X <= 12, must be correct. 00:44:35 _3b: uh oh, that should teach me not to trust some random blog 00:44:49 nyef: :) 00:44:55 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:45:00 *_3b* votes (defun is-prime (x) t) and (defun is-composite (x) t), and the user is responsible for using the right one for any given number :p 00:45:23 haha :D 00:45:27 (defun is-prime (x) nil) ;; Usually right, and is more often right the more cases you try. 00:45:35 haha 00:45:50 <_3b> that strategy works too :) 00:46:12 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:46:35 <_3b> kajic: also, once it is working, note that you don't need to check any divisors over (sqrt x) 00:47:27 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:46 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:47:47 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:59 <_3b> kajic: also, if X is supposed to be a number, = is better than EQUAL 00:49:13 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:49:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:44 _3b: oh okay 00:52:58 mom_ [~mom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:27 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:53:39 -!- mom_ is now known as CompletelyBonker 00:54:58 -!- tali713 [tali713@x-160-94-88-93.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:04:59 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:05:06 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:06:32 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 01:07:29 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:30 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:07:30 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:10:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.64.211] has joined #lisp 01:11:13 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12:02 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:12:45 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:17:33 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 01:18:38 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:23:54 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 01:26:14 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:37 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:29:55 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@net-93-144-215-63.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:30:18 qbg [~qbg@frogstar.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:30:25 -!- qbg [~qbg@frogstar.morris.umn.edu] has left #lisp 01:32:57 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@guestlaptop-15.cis.uoguelph.ca] has joined #lisp 01:33:52 urg! i'm still searching for something to generate an orthographic diagram from text :P 01:36:50 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:56 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.64.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:34 konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has joined #lisp 01:43:20 Demosthenes: did you try Common Lisp? that seems like the kind of task it might be suited for. 01:44:12 cue my 'programmers never seem to want to program' rant. 01:51:04 haha ;] 01:51:07 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:16 no really i just hit a graph i couldn't fix with Graphviz :P 01:52:07 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 01:52:16 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs.] 01:55:35 ephcon [~ephcon@student166-93.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 01:56:17 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:42 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:58:35 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:59:43 slashz [fnok@93-173-160-40.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 02:00:43 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:04:35 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:42 -!- slashz [fnok@93-173-160-40.bb.netvision.net.il] has left #lisp 02:06:56 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:07:00 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.33] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:08:52 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:09:21 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:47 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 02:11:22 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242356783.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:15:55 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 02:17:20 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 02:18:47 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 02:23:38 How can I abort something in the REPL from emacs? :) 02:23:56 kajic: C-c C-c is one way 02:24:14 thanks 02:25:09 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:21 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 02:28:29 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:47 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 02:30:51 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:32:40 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:19 Hello Fare. 02:35:52 hello 02:36:51 -!- gruseom [~daniel@d206-75-29-17.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:39:27 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:51 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 02:41:27 -!- moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:41:43 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.77.69.178] has quit [K-Lined] 02:42:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.198.22] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:42:14 Oh, right. Now I remember. One approach to the "cfasl" problem is to have any macro that expands to something with compile-time side-effects also output the part of the expansion with the side-effects to a separate file that can be compiled to obtain just the compile-time side-effects. 02:42:38 Or that can be compiled such that the effects will occur on load. 02:43:17 And have compiling/loading this file not be part of the normal build process, but for later development against a running system or to support distributed compilation. 02:43:46 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:43:53 I ran into this when discovering how badly SBCL's disassembler and assembler frameworks abuse EVAL at build-time. 02:44:18 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242356783.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-inyfcughcusktwhr] has joined #lisp 02:48:48 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:59 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:52:41 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student166-93.hampshire.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:53:34 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@guestlaptop-15.cis.uoguelph.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:56:21 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:58:11 has anyone used jfli with ccl recently? i'm getting stuck when i try to define my first class. (seemingly frozen but cpu pegged, let it go for several hours- nothing notable happened) 02:59:57 derrida: i doubt you'll find many jfli users 'round here at all... even the author abandoned it for greener pastures :) 03:00:22 yeah, i figured ;) 03:01:04 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.57] has joined #lisp 03:02:00 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:54 kjhkjhk867 [~5161938e@gateway/web/freenode/x-stunfabyzcvvwmok] has joined #lisp 03:07:16 -!- kjhkjhk867 [~5161938e@gateway/web/freenode/x-stunfabyzcvvwmok] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:41 gfgdf789 [~5161938e@gateway/web/freenode/x-cmutoiiybfmjgjlu] has joined #lisp 03:13:14 -!- gfgdf789 [~5161938e@gateway/web/freenode/x-cmutoiiybfmjgjlu] has quit [Client Quit] 03:18:35 nyef: if I can afford a CL to CL compiler, then indeed I can import CFASL this way... 03:19:22 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.8.10] has joined #lisp 03:26:11 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:26:17 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:25 Evet [~Evet@unaffiliated/evet] has joined #lisp 03:29:55 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 03:29:59 -!- poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:30:19 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:32:13 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:32:47 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:34:26 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:34:55 wolfspaw [~Whocares@189.124.220.116] has joined #lisp 03:35:07 -!- konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:39:58 -!- faure [~james@201-1-7-29.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:44:50 faure [~james@201-1-2-181.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:47:00 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:09 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:55 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:05:21 -!- wolfspaw [~Whocares@189.124.220.116] has quit [] 04:06:09 gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:07:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:09:11 http://filebin.ca/wfvpw/xiotank4.ogv <---- lisp audiovisuals 04:14:13 that smells untrustworthy 04:14:22 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:14:39 cool 04:14:46 oh. i put it on filebin BrianRice because my youtube seems not to be working 04:14:52 i can't really vouch for the site. 04:15:40 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 04:16:49 ok, I am impressed 04:19:43 BrianRice: it's my 2010 7-day roguelike contest entry. my first ever compo entry :) 04:20:18 i don't know if you've seen my other stuff 04:26:02 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:26:56 dto: o/ 04:27:01 dto: looks awesome :D 04:27:03 hi derrida. 04:33:57 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 04:41:18 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:07 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.57] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:49:05 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:50:09 poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 04:53:28 Good morning! 05:00:19 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:03:36 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:54 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:54 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:11:54 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 05:13:07 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:16:41 -!- poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:17:09 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:18:05 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:21:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:23:20 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 05:26:16 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:31:54 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:08 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:21 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.8.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:41:40 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 05:42:04 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-188-117.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:42:12 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:18 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:45:54 Why on earth would SBCL refuse (setf (documentation 'abort 'restart) ...)? 05:51:06 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:42 <_3b> does the spec say it should do anything with it? 05:57:20 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:58 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:30 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:51 azathoth991 [~gschuette@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:00 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:09:14 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:18:49 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:18:51 morning 06:19:45 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:42 -!- faure [~james@201-1-2-181.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 06:25:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:29:00 beach, could it be in violation of 11.1.2.1.2 ? 06:29:21 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:59 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:31:36 __chiding [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:31:54 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 06:32:46 hello, is it possible to run some user defined (cleanup) functions when exiting from SBCL? 06:33:38 <_3b> http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Initialization-and-Exit-Hooks.html 06:34:39 can common lisp be used to move files around in unix using regexps or that new regexp option? 06:34:47 or bad idea, best use shell? 06:35:08 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:10 _3b: thanks! 06:36:59 dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:59 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:36:59 dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 06:37:54 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:38:54 azathoth991, there are great regexp libraries for CL, but frobbing files in CL is not for the faint of heart 06:40:02 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:40:44 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 06:41:44 heh 06:43:16 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:16 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:43:16 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 06:45:41 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.8.10] has joined #lisp 06:45:54 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:48:42 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:52:36 dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:36 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:52:36 dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 06:55:34 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:56:46 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:58:55 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:57 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:58:58 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 06:59:12 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.234] has joined #lisp 07:00:18 -!- azathoth991 [~gschuette@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01:34 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:04:26 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 07:05:29 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05:38 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 07:09:06 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban2.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:13 -!- easyE [NpnJ6NSlWv@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:10:16 Axius [~hi@92.84.31.186] has joined #lisp 07:12:47 Adlai: No, I don't think so. 07:13:25 Adlai: The spec explicitly encourages implementations to add new doc-types for documentation. 07:13:32 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:14:05 <_3b> does it object to defining a method to store it? 07:14:27 clhs documentation 07:14:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 07:14:53 A conforming implementation or a conforming program may extend the set of symbols that are acceptable as the doc-type. 07:15:14 And that seems to apply for (setf documentation) as well. 07:15:26 <_3b> right, doesn't say anything about accepting symbols for which there is no extension 07:15:39 *_3b* assumes that means you should define a method for your new doc type 07:16:12 Hmm, I see. 07:17:32 <_3b> if the (doc-type T) method could handle arbitrary doc-types, why bother specifying specific eql methods 07:17:37 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:17:44 nostoi [~nostoi@62.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:15 Yes, I think you are right. 07:21:11 Now I suppose it is illegal for an implementation to have additional symbols in the CL package, right? 07:21:26 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:21:32 <_3b> yeah 07:21:38 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-110-1.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:21:38 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:21:54 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-110-1.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:50 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:23:29 hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:15 Where does it say that though? 07:24:24 <_3b> clhs 11.1.2.1 07:24:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm 07:24:52 Thanks! 07:24:54 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 07:29:29 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:32:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban2.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:37:38 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@62.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:37:46 easyE [q5AC59Mi1p@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:17 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 07:38:41 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:46:43 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.31.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:51:49 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:10 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:55:16 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:28 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:34 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:35 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:55:35 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:56:22 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@83.222.190.61] has joined #lisp 07:57:09 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:10 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:00:21 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:00:50 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 08:02:25 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:02:36 good morning 08:03:34 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:06:47 hello mvilleneuve 08:10:00 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-207-215.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 08:11:45 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:12:06 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:12:29 fvides [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 08:16:38 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:16:49 Ogedei [~user@e178198106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:50 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:18:34 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:56 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@c-c725e655.1410-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: lukego] 08:20:10 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:21:09 Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:21:13 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:22:23 -!- fvides [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Quit: I'll be back B)] 08:22:36 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:24:27 gozek_ [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 08:24:30 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:24:59 -!- gozek_ [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Client Quit] 08:26:16 gozek_ [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 08:27:32 -!- gozek_ [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:27:36 There's no way in CL to find out whether output is pending in an output-stream, is there? Kind of like LISTEN for output-streams 08:27:37 lukego [~lukegorri@c-c725e655.1410-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:28:56 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:30 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 08:31:07 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: g'night freenode.] 08:32:01 tcr: OS-dependant? 08:36:27 I/O is always OS dependent :-) there might still be some trick in CL I wouldn't know of, hence I asked 08:38:52 tcr: not OS-dependent, but implementation-dependent 08:38:53 (defun output-pending-p (stream) (finish-output stream) nil) ;) 08:39:38 plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:39:42 Good morning! 08:40:12 hi plage 08:45:54 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@c-c725e655.1410-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: lukego] 08:46:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:48:29 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:49:22 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:05 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:53:41 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:56:53 minion: please tell the-enseirb-students about pcl. 08:56:53 the-enseirb-students: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:58:26 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:59:46 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:02:14 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:03:16 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:07:08 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 09:07:09 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:10:24 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:12:33 So I guess if you add new document types to DOCUMENTATION, they would have to be symbols in some package other than CL, right? 09:18:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:21:29 lukego [~lukegorri@c-c725e655.1410-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:21:45 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:22:40 mvilleneuve: around? 09:25:17 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:26:32 Quiet today. 09:27:25 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:30:14 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 09:33:46 plage: I'm here 09:33:54 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 09:35:17 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:35:55 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:13 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:37:23 amv 09:37:28 er, sorry. 09:37:49 mvilleneuve: How well do you think that web site can handle thousands of tasks? 09:38:06 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:44 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:40 mvilleneuve: I don't mean just wrt performance, but also how easy it will be to find information that one might be looking for. 09:40:10 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@c-c725e655.1410-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: lukego] 09:41:19 plage: I was wondering about that yesterday. Since it only has a 2 level-hierarchy (story and tasks), finding things might get difficult with tasks that are as precise as those about docstrings 09:42:40 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:42:52 Yeah, exactly my thinking. But am willing to try. 09:44:03 plage: do you see other classes of tasks that are likely to be as numerous as the docstring tasks? 09:44:30 mvilleneuve: Yes, "implement car", "implement cdr" etc. 09:44:51 mvilleneuve: There will be 1000 of those too. 09:46:51 plage, mvilleneuve: I don't know what you're talking about, but let me push in and remind you not to forget about the handful of symbols in the CL package that have multiple meanings, so you'll have 'implement * (function)' and 'implement * (repl vrbl)' (also +, ERROR etc.). 09:47:16 -!- randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47:38 splittist: Yeah, for each symbol that I have doubts about, I check whether it has multiple meanings. 09:47:58 mvilleneuve: What's the website again (for splittist)? 09:48:01 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:48:31 http://scrumy.com/SICL 09:48:43 splittist: Check the docsting tasks. You'll see that there are + variable and + function. 09:49:47 -!- BrianRice [~briantric@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 09:49:58 I see. 09:51:29 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-043-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:53 (You have LOOP but Cons, and 'Arithmetic operators' but 'Cons-low') 09:51:58 plage: I was thinking that we may not need a task for each individual symbol, some could be put into groups ("numbers", "conses", "arrays",...) 09:53:35 of course that would mean that progress is more difficult to track, thus more easily frustrating 09:53:43 mvilleneuve: But that would make it hard to grab a task to work on for a very short period, like 15 minutes. 09:54:04 true 09:54:39 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.8.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:54:48 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-043-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 09:54:53 then we may need a way to split the work across "stories" 09:54:59 kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:55:14 much more of them 09:56:12 mvilleneuve: Ah, yes, I see. Like docstrings starting with `a' or docstrings for arithmetic or something like that. 09:56:23 *splittist* is curious as to what the docstring for the function CADAR looks like. 09:56:50 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-100-237.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:57:15 you can find out if you do a git clone of the repository. 09:57:44 plage: something like that, yes - even if it doesn't look very natural 09:57:53 splittist: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/SICL/SICL.git I think 09:58:10 mvilleneuve: it might work without splitting though. 09:58:49 Not the SPARQL in Common Lisp Sicl git then (: 09:59:23 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:59:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 10:02:59 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-71-132.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:03:13 splittist: The advantage of using (setf documentation) is that part of the process can be automated as you see for first, second, etc. 10:03:43 plage: indeed - I'm looking at make-c*r-documentation now (: 10:04:09 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 10:05:09 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:06:28 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 10:08:22 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 10:08:34 I guess one could do the same with #. 10:09:08 as in (defun f (...) #,(make-c*r-documentation ...)) 10:13:51 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 10:17:03 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:18:21 Axius [~hi@92.84.16.135] has joined #lisp 10:18:22 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 10:18:32 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:26:51 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.16.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:30:25 -!- Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:31:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:32:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:34:41 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:39:29 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 -!- migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:45:04 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:30 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:46:16 anyone know what might cause lispbuilder-sdl windows to appear black until i resize (whereafter they draw normally) 10:47:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 10:49:52 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:50:23 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:44 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:54:07 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 11:03:58 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:07:06 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:15:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-inyfcughcusktwhr] has left #lisp 11:18:41 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:20 cmsimon [~Chris@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 11:27:55 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-119-98.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:45 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:37:21 what thread will run the handler installed with sb-sys:enable-interrupt? 11:41:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:48:27 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 11:49:05 unicode [~user@95.214.11.46] has joined #lisp 11:50:59 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-130-194.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:53:16 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:54:43 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-200-76.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:56:29 ahoge [~hide@PPPa489.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:56:29 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 11:57:12 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 11:58:19 -!- plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:00 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 12:05:24 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:14 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-57-133.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:07:53 I want to make table factory function in emacs with cl extension. 12:08:00 (table-object 'push 13) 12:08:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-36-30.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:08:14 mistake 12:08:32 (defun mk-table-instance () 12:08:33 (let ((table nil)) 12:08:36 (defun __temp__ (msg &rest value) 12:08:37 (case msg 12:08:37 ((push) (push (car value) table)) 12:08:38 (otherwise table))) 12:08:39 (function __temp__))) 12:08:40 (fset 'table-object (mk-table-instance)) 12:08:40 (table-object 'push 13) 12:08:57 I tried above. 12:08:58 eirik [eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 12:09:24 don't paste code in irc, and this is not #emacs 12:09:33 but, the `table` variable is not bind. 12:09:40 and "you're doing it wrong" 12:10:12 ok. thank you. 12:10:25 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:10:42 -!- ahoge [~hide@PPPa489.osaka.acca.dti.ne.jp] has left #lisp 12:10:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:12:24 Tonijz [~Tonijz@85.254.194.65] has joined #lisp 12:14:29 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:17:41 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:18:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 12:23:21 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:23:39 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 12:23:52 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.69.8] has joined #lisp 12:23:56 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.69.8] has quit [Changing host] 12:23:56 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:32:51 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:33:23 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 12:34:33 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:49 -!- Ifur [~osm@73.84-48-93.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:29 Ifur [~osm@73.84-48-93.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:44 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-200-36.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 12:48:22 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:49:57 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 12:55:50 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban1.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:57 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 12:58:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:00:42 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.11.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:06:10 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-188-117.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:07:56 prxq [~mommer@f052058038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:08:11 hi 13:08:15 hi prxq 13:08:27 hi fe[nl]ix 13:10:37 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 13:11:08 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:22 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:11 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 13:19:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:20:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:21:04 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 13:21:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:53 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 13:24:28 Because they're the JVM's idea of what a line ending should be. 13:25:42 I'll file a bug for you. We should at least make the analysis of why this isn't easy coherent. 13:25:52 -!- kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has quit [Quit: kajic] 13:26:07 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-205-15.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:26:37 easyE: for me? 13:26:51 Gee, sorry. Wrong channel. 13:27:56 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:13 -!- eal [~user@c83-250-154-56.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:30:17 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:31:20 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 13:34:09 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:35 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 13:35:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:40:20 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 13:40:28 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:42:57 pragma_ [~pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:25 -!- pragma_ is now known as Guest49919 13:47:56 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:21 oh hai, easyE (-: 13:50:01 Antifuchs: hey! 13:50:45 Xach: I think you could add the first lambdaheads vienna meeting to the planet.lisp calendar (: 13:51:28 woo! 13:51:30 Xach: http://metalab.at/wiki/Lambdaheads (: 13:51:53 Is the format for the talks like five minute lightning talks? I think Michael wanted me to speack about ABCL. 13:52:41 I think we'll need to ask Michael about that. I'm going to prepare a short 5min demo of classic clim and climacs 13:52:59 Ok. I'll reply to the current email thread. 13:53:05 it's a lisp dialects & general functional programming interest group, but I guess as two CLers are going to attend and speak, ... (: 13:53:12 But we already have a lot of particpants. 13:53:17 indeed 13:53:33 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:36 Any possibilty to make wedge SBCL into a shared object (.so)? 13:54:50 easyE: no. use ecl 13:55:05 Thanks. 13:55:14 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:46 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:00:50 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:23 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 14:02:05 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:03 ps7 [~ps@194.230.146.38] has joined #lisp 14:03:58 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:34 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:04:44 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:44 G0SUB [~ghoseb@unaffiliated/g0sub] has joined #lisp 14:04:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:04:55 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 14:07:22 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:54 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 14:08:56 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.11] has joined #lisp 14:10:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:04 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:18:10 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:58 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 14:19:26 -!- Tonijz [~Tonijz@85.254.194.65] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:19:27 are there any secrets to getting asdf-install to work? 14:19:56 PuffTheMagic_: like what? 14:20:05 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:07 PuffTheMagic_: better not even try 14:20:15 lol 14:20:15 worksforme 14:20:23 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:38 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:20:46 PuffTheMagic_: yeah, asdf-install was a pretty fun proof-of-concept back in the day... nowadays, you're better off getting stuff via clbuild 14:21:12 yeah well i started looking at clbuild but dont feel like installing sbcl to use it 14:21:21 since i was trying to get asdf working in lw 14:22:07 i had asdf working by downloading stuff manually i was just writing a how to for someone 14:22:44 What's the error with ASDF-INSTALL? 14:22:57 *easyE* recently went through its internals to port to ABCL. 14:23:07 Such as it has "internals". 14:23:14 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:24 yeah, it's all guts and gore (: 14:24:06 Philosophically, I don't want to go outside of Lisp to install stuff, so I like asdf-install over clbuild. But it certainly could use some more love. 14:24:10 my problem with asdf-install is that it relies on the concept of a release, but it turns out the lisp world doesn't really work like that 14:24:28 or at least, a huge part of the lisp library ecosystem doesn't 14:24:35 Agreed. 14:25:03 But it is also true that current version of X doesn't always work with current version of Y. 14:25:04 easyE: well after it complains about gpg failing it downloads the files into the sites dir then it says component not found 14:25:15 PuffTheMagic_, you don't need to use SBCL with clbuild 14:25:23 so it's far easier to use clbuild in order to get something that resembles a recent, probably-ok state than to use asdf-install to get an outdated, probably-just-as-untested, probably-ok state (: 14:25:31 Adlai: well it does not seem to support lispworks out of the box 14:25:35 from my inspection of it 14:25:43 PuffTheMagic: that means its not linking in the ASDF .asd correctly. 14:25:49 Look around the symlink stuff. 14:25:51 and i havent spent enough time patching it to support it 14:25:57 You ain't on windows are you? 14:25:58 PuffTheMagic_, you don't need clbuild to "support" your implementation. Just push /path/to/clbuild/systems/ onto asdf:*central-registry* in your lisp's startup file 14:26:23 oh cool 14:26:34 this way you can have clbuild "support" all your installed lisps, without modifying clbuild itself 14:26:51 that sounds easy 14:27:47 Then, go forth and clbuild, my son. 14:28:36 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-130-194.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:41 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:32:17 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:20 Reaver2 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:33:07 how is ECL used, standalone or embedded? 14:33:23 randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:33:28 leo2007: both 14:33:29 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:33:29 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:33:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:33:32 whatever you want 14:33:46 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 14:33:50 how to embed it in Emacs? 14:33:59 Adlai: clbuild still seems to want scbl 14:34:31 how small is ECL's kernel image? 14:34:38 PuffTheMagic_, what are you trying to do which requires SBCL? 14:35:10 well i added the systems dir to my central-registry but i have no systems... so i tried clbuild install 14:35:19 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:35:26 ... and? 14:36:14 and it saidWarning: Cannot find an executable for implementation sbcl 14:36:14 Warning: Cannot find an executable for implementation sbcl 14:36:14 hmm i cant type this morning 14:36:28 i typed intall 14:36:30 ;) 14:36:39 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.60.112] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 It's one or two meg, iirc. 14:36:53 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 14:38:20 PuffTheMagic_, 'clbuild intall' gave you that warning? 14:38:20 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:28 yeah 14:38:32 it said it wanted sbcl to do something 14:38:39 but install is working 14:39:25 -!- ps7 [~ps@194.230.146.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:43:56 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:46:43 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.231.96] has joined #lisp 14:47:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:48:24 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:36 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 14:55:52 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:31 -!- randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:20 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:05:59 knobo [~user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 15:06:37 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 15:08:03 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:10:57 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:13:13 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 15:20:55 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:18 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 15:22:43 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:22:43 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 15:23:35 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.231.96] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:30:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.92.32] has joined #lisp 15:31:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:33:36 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:24 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-200-76.uio.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 15:38:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:39:00 <_deepfire> Is SBCL so much harder to hack on than ECL, or is Juanjo godlike? 15:40:16 _deepfire: he's been at it for quite a few years 15:40:30 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:35 _deepfire: (though he's still awesome!) 15:40:36 <_deepfire> Riding on the C runtime support simplifies things, though. 15:41:03 I personaly find ECL simper, but I'm not saying Juanjo is human :) 15:41:36 _deepfire: what are you refering to? 15:42:08 <_deepfire> prxq, in which of the two statements? 15:42:09 and what is C runtime support? :-) 15:42:17 both actually 15:42:58 <_deepfire> prxq, wrt. the first, I compare ECL release announcements with those of SBCL. 15:43:46 _deepfire: my uninformed judgment is that ECL is less complete 15:43:47 _deepfire: ECL has still some catching up to do compared to SBCL so that might explain his progress rate 15:43:48 <_deepfire> He seems to pack as much in one release as the whole SBCL team does. 15:43:49 so there's more low-hanging fruit 15:43:51 it could simply be a difference in the release engineering method also 15:44:45 <_deepfire> Xof, quite probably, I'm speaking on the grounds of perception, which is agreeably imprecise. 15:45:22 he's just rewrited the compiler, iiuc. which both increases the number of low-hanging fruits and (due to the fact that everything is fresh in his mind) further decreases the altitude of said fruits 15:45:36 *rewritten 15:46:01 there's a new compiler indeed but I think it's not currently used by default 15:46:11 oh, ok 15:47:46 <_deepfire> prxq, well, he uses an external GC and he gets relocatability for free, for isntance. 15:48:24 xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:48:52 <_deepfire> Plus, the seemingly problem-free threading. 15:49:02 <_deepfire> I don't know where it comes from. 15:49:09 compiling to C simplifies a lot 15:49:23 _deepfire: possibly simply that it just uses pthread so it works on all posix systems 15:49:29 from the fact that the GC he uses is already thread-aware, for one :) 15:49:31 <_deepfire> phadthai, prxq's questions was about /what/ it simplifies 15:50:55 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:51:00 apparently some parts of ECL CLOS would not be thread-safe though but I'll have to eventually test that myself, as I use its thread support and don't seem to have problems, but I've not used CLOS with threads 15:51:29 <_deepfire> Are there direct native CL compilers generating relocatable code? 15:51:51 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:53:50 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:53:59 _deepfire, I think that using the external GC precludes weak hashtables 15:54:51 at least, I haven't found any information on how you can solve the key-in-value problem while using the Boehm GC 15:55:05 A lot of stuff is there but wasn't exported 15:55:46 and it's in a state, like Xof said, where little but directed effort can make huge difference 15:57:02 <_deepfire> That statement, when taken in isolation, sounds like a positive characterisation. 15:57:20 cYmen2 [ujasp@rzstud5.stud.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:22 -!- CompletelyBonker [~mom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:57:23 I'm conducting a survey. I've heard hat multiple return statements in a function are bad. Does anybody know why? 15:57:34 slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1DC49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:13 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:26 it's goto in disguise 15:59:16 tcr: So you agree? 15:59:17 tail calls are gotos in disguise too, but are considered good :) 15:59:25 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:38 heh 15:59:49 cYmen2: no not necessarily 16:00:07 it can both improve and harm readability, just like explicit gotos 16:00:09 nothing wrong with goto 16:00:20 guns don't kill people! 16:00:47 loone [~chatzilla@118.94.197.22] has joined #lisp 16:01:02 cYmen2: afaict, this goes back to the goal of using structured programming to simplify the (machinal) analysis of programs using hoare triples, a la dijkstra. 16:01:21 <_deepfire> cmm, tail calls do not interrupt/override value passing semantics, like return{,-from} does 16:02:50 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:59 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:00 <_deepfire> Au contraire, in contrast with LOOP-alikes tail calls /enforce/ natural value passing semantics. 16:03:56 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 16:04:17 _deepfire: be careful with words like 'natural' when beach is around (: 16:04:19 cYmen2: multiple returns are usually a code smell for functions that are too big 16:04:22 <_deepfire> Now, wtf "value passing semantics" are? 16:05:17 -!- cmsimon [~Chris@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:05:50 <_deepfire> Something like a built-in expectation of functional style? 16:05:59 <_deepfire> This should vary between people, though. 16:06:29 lukego [~lukegorri@212.112.174.86] has joined #lisp 16:06:44 ps7 [~ps@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 16:07:12 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:14 dlowe: (block nil (when foo (return ...)) (when bar (return ...)) ...) can easily be converted into a COND. Is the COND any clearer or shorter? 16:07:34 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:37 <_deepfire> pkhuong, you have to disassemble the COND out of that piece 16:08:41 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: #1=`',@#1#] 16:08:46 pkhuong: the COND would be more clear and shorter. I'm not sure where you're going with that. 16:11:04 maybe he's going the "now we add some code after the first when form" way ;) 16:11:20 dlowe: what makes the COND clearer? 16:13:07 (and how is it shorter, actually, especially if the block was actually implicit?) 16:13:19 pkhuong: there's less clutter, both visual and semantic. and you didn't supply an implicit block 16:13:37 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:37 not many constructs have an implicit block, anyway 16:13:43 dlowe: yeah.. DEFUN. 16:14:07 an implicit (BLOCK NIL ...) I mean :) 16:14:09 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:19 (return-from blah-blah-blah ...) is even more clutterful 16:14:39 I don't see that: the when/return constructs make it very clear that these are guards that handle special cases 16:15:00 And doesn't introduce clutter in the actually interesting part of the function that handles the general case. 16:15:00 COND is more specific 16:15:17 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:29 ah, well. a "here is the actually interesting part" comment would have been illustrative 16:16:55 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:17:01 I was taking a weaker stance on the issue than perhaps you saw. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that it tends to make me suspicious when I see it, and I'm inclined to see if I can think of a better way. 16:17:09 Sometimes I can't. *shrug* 16:17:11 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:03 For a purely mechanical analysis, in the style of dijkstra's calculus of predicates, I can see that chained IFs are clearer and slightly easier to process 16:19:54 Very few of us are that formal though, so it's not much more work to recognize common patterns and only complain on really pathological code (which may or may not include multiple returns). 16:22:06 <_deepfire> pkhuong, I can see simplification of the main part due to isolation of a special case -- but your block-vs-cond example doesn't seem to advance your case. 16:22:10 ams [~ams@m90-130-233-203.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:22:29 <_deepfire> Or maybe I'm missing something. 16:22:35 _deepfire: how is the when/return pattern worse? 16:22:52 <_deepfire> Increased perceptual load? 16:23:05 it's an example; the general idea (a pattern, really) of using return{-from} in "guards" is very valid 16:23:42 <_deepfire> pkhuong, also, uniformity promised once you see the COND symbol at the very beginning in the form. 16:24:21 _deepfire: along with additional indentation. 16:24:26 <_deepfire> Whereas with the block you'd need to see that each subform conforms to the (when condition action (return)) form. 16:25:01 large CONDs are not very readable. you can refactor them, use return-from, or use IF* 16:25:41 <_deepfire> cmm, large sequences of when-return blocks ala pkhuong are even worser? 16:25:51 and if* even worse ;) 16:25:56 cmm: or decompose into functions :p 16:26:01 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:19 there's no problem with more functions 16:26:21 _deepfire: who's talking about long sequences? 16:26:22 minion: chant 16:26:22 MORE FUNCTIONS 16:26:30 dlowe: that's "refactor" :) 16:26:53 <_deepfire> cmm, you mentioned large CONDs, no? 16:27:00 cmm: using return-from or IF* is refactoring too 16:27:17 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 16:27:32 dlowe: according to you, it'd be more like multiplying. 16:27:49 _deepfire: CONDs with large bodies, but not necessarily with lots of conditions 16:28:17 _deepfire: CONDs with lots of conditions but not a lot of code in each condition are actually very readable 16:28:33 dlowe: point 16:28:47 pkhuong: I find that there's a tension between writing code for informal understandability and for formal provability.. ideas like Total Functional Programming (the paper) for example are extremely provability-oriented, whereas Lisp macros are extremely understandability-oriented 16:29:22 and since noone actually writes code for provability in real life... 16:29:57 <_deepfire> Well, coq.. 16:30:25 _deepfire: if you're using Coq to extract programs, the question is very different. 16:30:32 <_deepfire> They even have coq -> ml/haskell. 16:30:34 that's an academic meaning of "real life" :) 16:30:36 cmm: rather, very few people do. Sometimes it is necessary (certain avionics stuff) 16:30:43 cmm: I think in some areas they do 16:31:11 It then becomes a matter of structuring the proof to ensure the program isn't too inefficient (and erasable). 16:31:17 adeht: but is CL used in such settings? I don't really know 16:31:38 cmm: ACL2, somewhat. 16:31:49 HG` [~HG@xdslaj133.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 I don't know how many of the actors in this discussion have ever used such tools in anger. 16:33:47 <_deepfire> Europe, and especially france has a lot of this, AIUI. 16:34:04 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:34:10 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:56 _deepfire: but we don't. So why should we concern ourselves with making programs easier to prove correct, at the expense of readability? 16:35:32 <_deepfire> Oh, I wish I knew where it was going, I'd keep my mouth shut then. 16:35:49 The assertion is that multiple returns are an indicator that a function is too large. 16:36:05 pkhuong: a weak indicator 16:36:56 I'd qualify it as useless, nowadays: people have learned to be disciplined with returns and gotos over the last 30-40 years. 16:37:24 I sometimes use return-froms within a closure/local-function.. 16:37:55 mostly use returns in loop's finally clause ;) 16:38:40 <_deepfire> adeht, point 16:38:50 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslaj133.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:42:07 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:42:57 silenius [~jl@f053001243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:26 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 milanj [~milan@93.86.187.103] has joined #lisp 16:47:36 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:01 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 16:48:33 -!- loone [~chatzilla@118.94.197.22] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 16:48:56 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a37.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:57 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:49 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:49 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:52:50 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:52:54 Greetings. 16:52:55 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 16:53:31 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.92.32] has joined #lisp 16:54:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:16 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 16:58:56 -!- PuffTheMagic_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58:58 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:00:14 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:11 PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 17:02:45 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@83.222.190.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:20 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 17:06:19 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:40 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 17:06:44 -!- frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:40 jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has joined #lisp 17:15:05 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:10 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 17:18:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:18:13 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:18:45 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:53 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:04 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:23:09 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:23:47 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 17:25:02 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:25:07 are there any ccl developers around here usually? 17:25:13 TR2N [email@89.180.142.98] has joined #lisp 17:25:21 rme is sometimes here 17:26:03 i don't want to subscribe to another mailing list... :) 17:26:18 <_3b> #ccl has a few more ccl devs than here i think 17:27:32 <_8david> are you working on a ccl port? 17:28:24 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:54 -!- nickjd [~76ec881c@gateway/web/freenode/x-odoipldhxzfqqhzp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:30:54 _8david, i've tried a few dwim.hu libs on ccl. i've fixed computed-class just now... 17:31:03 Hun [~hun@95-89-70-43-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:27 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@212.112.174.86] has quit [Quit: lukego] 17:31:33 <_8david> cool. was that the 'unbound slot is implemented as a marker object' assumption? 17:31:34 ramus_ [~ramus@99.23.129.139] has joined #lisp 17:32:03 yes 17:32:21 <_3b> _8david: oh yeah, finally got around to testing my flash stuff on 10.1, and compressed files seem OK there too if you still care 17:32:42 that assumption was fine... but that it can be put in a hashtable, or in the code as a literal... that one was wrong... :) 17:34:05 -!- Reaver2 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 17:34:20 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:35:13 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-155-147.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35:29 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.92.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:44 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.92.32] has left #lisp 17:37:32 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:38:46 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 17:39:04 <_8david> _3b: oh, that's nice to hear. Is your code still available publically? If SWC files work for you, I must be doing something wrong. Perhaps I could take a peek at how you're doing it. 17:40:00 <_3b> _8david: http://github.com/3b/3bil and http://github.com/3b/3b-swf should be close to current 17:40:14 <_8david> In any case they must have slipped changes into 10.0.45.2 other than the security fix it's being touted as if it breaks my SWC. 17:40:27 <_8david> I can't even anyone here for compression being broken, since I'm using zlib to do it... 17:40:32 -!- ramus_ is now known as ramus 17:40:49 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.129.139] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 17:41:03 ramus [~ramus@99.23.129.139] has joined #lisp 17:42:03 <_3b> http://github.com/3b/3b-swf/blob/master/api.lisp#L684 is where it handles compression i think 17:42:05 <_8david> worth trying whether salza2 works better than zlib :-) 17:44:33 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:46:03 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:49 tmh pasted "Supress spaces when using paredit" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96177 17:49:49 pmd [~pmd@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 17:49:49 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:49:52 -!- ams [~ams@m90-130-233-203.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:49:53 Greetings lispers. 17:50:10 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:50:23 Finally, was able to get spaces suppressed in paredit. That only took me about a day to figure out. 17:50:32 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066172.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 17:51:03 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:51:08 -!- silenius [~jl@f053001243.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:23 tmh: what spaces are you talking about? 17:57:34 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:46 Spaces after the octothorpe, like #P"" or #C() 17:58:46 frontiers [~frontiers@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:59:09 The default is to get #P "" and #C () 17:59:18 tmh: oh, nice. 17:59:21 Very annoying to always have to backspace. 17:59:47 ysph [~user@24.181.93.165] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 The functionality was in the patches on the paredit website, but the hooks were wrong, just corrected the hooks. 18:01:08 isn't common-lisp-mode an ELI thing? 18:02:24 common-lisp-mode is an alias for `lisp-mode' in `lisp-mode.el'. 18:02:27 I don't know what an ELI thing is. 18:02:42 tmh: it still adds a space after #- 18:02:55 tmh: with your hooks that is 18:03:02 ELI is Allegro's Emacs interaction thingie 18:03:04 or maybe i'm doing something wrong 18:03:33 jdz: Ok, didn't test that. I didn't modify the actual routine, just the hooks. So, looks like there is still room for improvement. 18:03:40 tmh: where can I get this cl-octothorpe.el? 18:03:50 tmh: nvm, #C is not working for me either 18:04:07 http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/ 18:04:15 tmh: maybe because i don't have the octothrope thing, too 18:04:31 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:40 jdz: Ah, yeah, that was implicit, sorry not to have explicitly said that. 18:05:11 -!- pmd [~pmd@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 18:05:25 You need to get delimiter-space.el and cl-octothorpe.el. I added a load form for each at the end of paredit-beta.el. 18:05:39 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:39 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:05:39 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 18:05:47 Just replace the hook at the end of cl-octothorpe.el with the ones I pasted. 18:07:31 <_deepfire> tmh, where can I read about functionality added by cl-octotrophe and delimiter-space? 18:08:03 I suspect in the code for cl-octothorpe.el and delimiter-space.el. 18:08:06 Read the source. :) 18:08:10 <_deepfire> (Or was that paredit-cl-octotrophe.el, as google seems to suggest..) 18:08:13 _deepfire: Yes, in the source 18:08:37 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B5A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 _deepfire: It's pretty basic, delimiter-space.el redefines paredit-space-for-delimiter-p to work through a list of delimiter-predicates and paredit-cl-octothorpe.el defines a predicate for Common Lisp. 18:11:23 pmd [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 18:12:37 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082D0DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:15:44 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:18:35 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:19:16 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 18:20:24 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 18:20:55 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:59 Hello all. 18:21:04 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:21:06 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:21:06 hello nyef 18:21:09 -!- pmd [~user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:27:54 jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:31:28 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:32:24 skeptomai [~cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:14 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.66] has joined #lisp 18:33:51 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:52 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:34:16 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:35:11 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 18:37:33 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:37:57 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:38:06 nickjd [~76ec90aa@gateway/web/freenode/x-qdxjgxfxjelgldub] has joined #lisp 18:39:46 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.4] has joined #lisp 18:43:05 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:48:09 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:21 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-119-98.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:45 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:51:44 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066172.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:20 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-205-15.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:53:07 -!- skeptomai [~cb@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:58:09 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-121-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:39 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:47 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 19:00:50 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban1.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:03:34 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:48 -!- ps7 [~ps@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [] 19:07:53 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:08:02 holycow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:08:33 sthuebner [~sthuebner@p54BDFFAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:46 PuffTheMagic [~4a430338@gateway/web/freenode/x-nysphpdetnjyxpdr] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 -!- PuffTheMagic [~4a430338@gateway/web/freenode/x-nysphpdetnjyxpdr] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:53 PuffTheMagic [~4a430338@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 -!- PuffTheMagic [~4a430338@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:53 PuffTheMagic [~4a430338@gateway/web/freenode/x-nysphpdetnjyxpdr] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 Xach: ping 19:10:08 err 19:10:08 no 19:10:21 who is the atdoc dev? 19:10:22 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:10:31 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 19:10:43 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:53 <_deepfire> PuffTheMagic, lichtblau 19:11:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:11:57 _8david is the culprit 19:12:16 thanks 19:14:14 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:14:43 Error: External format (:UTF-8 :EOL-STYLE :LF) produces characters of type SIMPLE-CHAR, which is not a subtype of the specified element-type BASE-CHAR. 19:15:14 ... "SIMPLE-CHAR"? 19:16:27 probably lw:simple-char 19:17:34 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@f052058038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:31 prxq [~mommer@f052058038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:52 PuffTheMagic_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 19:21:00 -!- PuffTheMagic [~4a430338@gateway/web/freenode/x-nysphpdetnjyxpdr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:25 BrianRice [~briantric@c-71-197-180-162.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-119-98.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:06 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:54 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:13 _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-yyziowfyhxxquhyr] has joined #lisp 19:35:50 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:39 pmd [~pmd@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 19:37:05 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:29 unicode [~user@95.214.47.240] has joined #lisp 19:37:51 <_rata_> hi 19:38:34 <_8david> Is that an atdoc based on xuriella or an old-fashioned one calling out to xsltproc? 19:38:57 <_8david> if it's the former, it won't work on lw anyway, I think. 19:39:05 <_8david> if it's the latter, it should at least be portable easily. 19:39:16 _rata_: hello, are you new here? 19:39:31 <_rata_> yes, i'm new here 19:39:55 <_rata_> i'm learning common lisp since a month 19:39:59 beach is old here. 19:40:05 <_rata_> *for a month (?) 19:40:35 _rata_: Good choice! 19:40:41 <_rata_> :) 19:40:48 _rata_: yes, "I have been learning common lisp for a month" would be acceptable :) 19:40:57 <_rata_> yeah... i like it very much 19:41:06 <_rata_> thanks drewc :) 19:42:04 that said, 'since ...' is common enough amoung non-native speakers that it could be considered 'international english', if such a thing existed :) 19:42:19 <_rata_> jajaajajaja 19:42:24 <_rata_> ok 19:42:32 <_rata_> where are you from drewc? 19:42:41 <_rata_> are you native speaker? 19:42:57 nay, drewc is quebec trash. :) 19:42:58 _rata_: I was born in Halifax NS, Canada, but I spoke french-canadian as a first language. 19:43:03 "Canadian English is Better English"? 19:43:19 <_rata_> jajaajaja 19:43:55 <_rata_> maybe i should laugh as "hahahaaha" 19:44:02 <_rata_> *like 19:44:03 nyef: oxford or webster, we don't care in canada as long as you keep the 'u' in colour! 19:44:10 Let us commence with the talk of Lisp. 19:44:19 drewc: It was a Megatokyo reference. :-P 19:44:25 Yes, Lisp! 19:44:27 indeed, Xach is right ! 19:44:44 <_rata_> well... then... i'm now looking for a plotting library that outputs publication quality images in CL... which one would you recomend me? 19:46:01 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 19:46:15 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:18 _rata_: adw-charting is the only library i can think of that might come close : http://common-lisp.net/project/adw-charting/ 19:46:21 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-76-214.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:33 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:46:41 i think many people just output to .dot 19:46:45 When I've needed to plot things, I've written out data files and gnuplot scripts from Lisp. 19:47:00 the last time i heard a question like this, someone mentioned cl-plplot. i've never tried it, though. 19:49:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:49:52 <_rata_> i took a look at cl-plplot and adw-charting, but none has conviced me.... none of those have outputs good quality images i think.... i doesnt mean just good resolution, but nice graphs 19:50:17 <_rata_> drewc, .dot is for graphs and network, not for plotting 19:50:31 <_rata_> i use .dot for other tasks 19:50:48 nyef: ROTFL @ "Canadian English is better English" 19:50:52 _rata_: Can you point to an example plot that is up to your quality standards? 19:51:17 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.47.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:28 <_rata_> i like the output of matplotlib very much 19:51:37 <_rata_> its plots are clear 19:51:42 <_rata_> very configurable 19:51:59 <_rata_> gnuplot is probably od 19:52:01 <_rata_> *ok 19:54:00 <_rata_> in fact i was thinking about writing a small script in python to do the plot and all the other work in common lisp... but i dont like the idea so much 19:54:23 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:54:23 <_rata_> i'd prefer to do the whole job in lisp 19:55:03 Can you interface to matplotlib somehow? Or rewrite it in lisp, if necessary? 19:55:31 _rata_: if you're willing to do some of the hard layout work, there are things like cl-pdf and Vecto to draw, in Lisp, to PDF or PNG. 19:56:19 i used vecto for http://xach.com/moviecharts/2009.html but little of it is reusable for other cases 19:56:24 Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:27 "Since both the usual form of computer program and recursive function definitions are universal computationally it is interesting to display the relation between them" --- jmc in AIM-11 . It took a _long_ time for him to figure out you could actually write programs in LISP directly. 19:56:46 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:57:15 gigamonkey made some nice sales charts but i don't see them now. 19:58:55 fwiw, the cl-plplot manual seems fairly complete. 19:59:35 <_rata_> yeah... i think i will try to rewrite or interface matplotlib in the near future... but i need this plots for tomorrow, so i think i'll use gnuplot or matplotlib directly 20:00:32 <_rata_> anyways, i think to rewrite matplotlib and its required libraries (scipy and numpy) in lisp would be a huge project 20:00:36 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:58 <_rata_> i mean, a huge project for one person 20:03:03 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-76-214.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:04:28 attila_lendvai also had a cl-graphviz package, but it doesn't seem to actually exist at the new location. 20:05:05 _rata_: i would assume that most of scipy and numpy are either available as part of a lisp directly, or most certainly as a library.... scientists have been using lisp a lot longer then they have been using python, and that code should be available _somewhere_. 20:05:09 hu.dwim.graphviz, but it's only needed if you want to layout graphs using ffi in memory 20:06:02 <_rata_> ffi in memory? 20:06:10 _rata_: do you per chance know what a "sofisticated (broadcast) function" might possibly be? 20:06:19 (from the numpy page) 20:06:19 What is best practice for custom/modified *PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* tables? Is it right to set say PHP-SERIALIZATION:*PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* with the modified table and let library users use (let ((*PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH* PHP-SERIALIZATION:*PRINT-PPRINT-DISPATCH*)) ) Or is better style to write a WITH-PHP-PPRINT-DISPATCH macro? 20:07:09 I have serialize and unserialize more or less done other then the exported interface :D 20:07:11 or rather "sophisticated (broadcasting) functions" 20:07:17 -!- Guest49919 [~pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:07:17 Guest49919 [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 20:07:18 nixeagle: you could just call it *php-table* and let users use (pprint thing :pprint-dispatch *php-table*) 20:07:19 -!- Guest49919 is now known as pragma_ 20:07:50 Xach: ooh thats something I was not aware of, and elegant! 20:08:31 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 20:09:22 <_rata_> prxq: i don't know what's that 20:10:21 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:10:45 prxq: i read that too ... i assumed it's some sort of slots/signals(ala QT) or event propagation type thing... actually i assumed it was BS first, then tried to figure out what the BS was standing in for :P 20:11:46 now that i've read the documentation, i have even less of a clue. 20:13:04 *drewc* is _way_ out of his domain now.... back to web apps for him! 20:13:06 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-120-53.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:07 This really was cool to write, I now realize how powerful modifying the reader and the printer is. Lisp practically does all the work for me leaving me only the work of specifying what the translation is. \o/ 20:13:58 _rata_, drewc: seems we are all unsophisticated 20:14:54 nixeagle: heh, one of the first lisp programs i wrote was a lisp->php->lisp translator.... I never did use it as i leanred enough lisp making it to just do the project in lisp :) 20:15:42 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-119-98.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:15:56 drewc: neat, I just finished implementing serialize and unserialize, mostly because I want to handle data from php websites. 20:16:02 nixeagle: however, i didn't use the pretty printer, and i've always wanted to do something fun with it! 20:16:52 nixeagle: i could see that being useful... i've delivered web apps that were written in lisp be extended in php... tighter integration would have been a boon 20:17:08 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.4] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:17:24 *and intended to be extended in php... 20:17:29 *Xach* gets question after question about installing roflbot on PHP sites 20:17:30 drewc: indeed, which is why I did not just hack it using subseq or a silly regex. I'm going to release this soon. 20:18:02 *Xach* could get so many more sales with a roflbot wordpress plugin of some sort 20:18:15 anything fancy for read-tables btw? Or is (let ((*readtable* *php-readtable*)) ...) the best I can get? 20:18:33 minion: tell nixeagle about named-readtables 20:18:34 named-readtables: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/named-readtables 20:18:35 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-71-132.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:18:38 nixeagle: tcr has a handy ... that thing. 20:18:53 is it useful enough to depend on for a library with no other dependencies? 20:19:00 _rata_, drewc: it has something to do with array arithmetic. http://www.scipy.org/EricsBroadcastingDoc 20:19:18 nixeagle: for your use case, probably not 20:19:19 nixeagle: it's mostly for writing lisp source code that needs to be read with the given readtable. 20:20:07 Xach: what do you tell them? 20:20:12 Alrighty, I'll stick to the (let ((...)) ...) form and maybe provide a macro or two for syntax. 20:20:13 nixeagle: but, i insist that if you're not going to use named-readtables, you provide your readtable in the form of a CALL-WITH-PHP-READTABLE function and not exporting a special variable :) 20:20:27 prxq: I tell them I don't offer that right now. 20:21:00 prxq: ahh, that makes sense i guess. 20:21:08 drewc: makes sense, does that jive with exporting the pprint-dispatch table? 20:21:12 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 20:21:23 nixeagle: no, you should export that as a function IMO as well 20:21:33 more sales than 0, Xach? 20:22:00 nixeagle: ie : (php-pprint-dispatch-table) rather than *php-..* 20:22:12 aha 20:22:35 nixeagle: i personally find this a lot cleaner, and it has the advantage of hiding the implementation details 20:22:43 interesting, I sort of understand the gain from using a function here, but I have never done call-with-*, I've done with-*. What is the general idea other then making the macro expand to a function? 20:22:43 Krystof: My sales are positive now, but would be more positive with more options. 20:22:48 Krystof: haven't been getting your 10%? :-) 20:22:56 1%! 20:23:02 nixeagle: never use a macro when a function will do 20:23:17 drewc: indeed 20:23:34 I was wondering if I ought to send the heavies^Wauditors in 20:23:34 nixeagle: also, you gain debuggability and development-ability 20:23:57 nixeagle: because you can modify the function CALL-WITH, and the call sites will refer to the new function defintion, not some old macro-expansion 20:24:00 drewc: you don't have to convince me ;) I was asking here because I already knew the macro idea was not the best ;) 20:24:17 *Xach* is sure to strike it rich with roflbot-for-ipad 20:24:31 nixeagle: having said that, i usually provide a macro wrapper WITH-FOO as well 20:24:42 drewc: that expands to (call-with-foo ...) ;) 20:24:46 bingo 20:24:50 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 I'm googling call-with now to get an idea :P 20:25:10 nikodemus wrote a rationale 20:26:28 call-with-rationale? 20:26:52 i will admit that, since i've starting using a lot of call-with and other continuation-passing-style functions, i have often wished for a lighter syntax for anonymous functions... especially thunks. 20:26:53 *Xach* is now unable to find it 20:27:07 where I'm not getting this is what are the args to call-with, the code to be run with the modified printer/read tables? I certainly don't want php-print because that is way too limiting, and I don't want to provide php-print-to-string and so on ;) as CL does that for me! 20:27:35 nixeagle: the only real arg CALL-WITH needs is a thunk 20:27:49 (call-with-php-readtable (lambda () (read stream))) 20:27:51 drewc: (defmacro thunk (&body body) `(lambda () ,@body)) ;; Who'da thunk it? 20:28:08 nyef: yeah, still not quite syntax-y enough 20:28:10 aha! http://random-state.net/log/3390120648.html is about CALL-WITH 20:28:24 drewc: aha! that is the missing piece. 20:28:30 thank you! 20:28:50 google does better with thunk too :D 20:28:59 nixeagle: no problem, thanks for listening to my advice! :) 20:30:08 is call-WITH-php-readtable the best name, given that you're not passing anything? 20:30:16 *sykopomp* has been considering using a readmacro for lambdas that works like this: [x (print x)] => (lambda (x) (print x)), [(x y &rest z) (+ x y)] => (lambda (x y &rest z) (+ x y)). 20:30:49 list-or-atom? why not everything up until the first list? 20:30:55 sykopomp: no 20:30:56 (for the parameter list.) 20:31:01 drewc: I would not have asked a question if I was not open to different ways to solve my problem. Mind you by doing this lib I've learned how to do reader macros, use the pretty printer instead of a hackish format function or 10! Now I get to learn how to write call-with-* functions instead of just with-* macros 20:31:03 tic: optionals? 20:31:32 still meh about it. Seems like (defmacro f (ll &rest body) `(lambda ,(if (listp ll) ll (list ll)) ,@body)) would be good enough for the shortening. 20:31:47 &body please! 20:31:52 oops! 20:31:57 yes be kind to emacs! 20:31:57 &body, duh :P 20:32:27 (f _ (print x)) vs (lambda (_) (print _)) is something of an improvement... 20:32:39 nixeagle: well, around here we often get people asking for advice and then arguing about the merits of it... it's quite refreshing to have someone embrace the 'right' way! :) 20:32:41 you mean (f x (print x)) ? 20:32:53 Adlai: sigh :P 20:33:01 I'm distracted, can you tell? 20:33:21 hardly an improvement 20:33:44 see, therein lies the rub... i claim to want lighter syntax, but every proposal i see is horrible.... 20:33:54 Xach, *lalala* ;) 20:34:09 drewc: well, the only thing to do after that point is to drop into concatenative mode and get rid of variables altogether. 20:34:11 imo 20:34:18 tic: of course, then you could use [x y &optional (z 42) || ...] 20:34:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:31 Xach, or you could use Haskell's -> 20:34:37 {x y -> (+ x y)} 20:34:42 Xach: if you're going to have silly symbols, you may as well just put your lambda list in a list, imo. 20:34:44 adding dummy characters for great justice? 20:34:53 [x y z :%-} ...] 20:34:59 sykopomp, I heard you like lambdas so much .... 20:35:07 how about we get back to basics: x(print x) 20:35:14 [x y z *<:-{)= ...] 20:35:15 Adlai: yes. 20:35:17 and xy(* x y) 20:35:31 nice Adlai 20:35:39 Why is 1 not a symbol? 20:35:47 herbieB, because it has the syntax of a number 20:35:48 -!- Hun [~hun@95-89-70-43-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:36:15 hmm 20:36:17 Adlai: That answer seems tautological. 20:36:25 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-7-238.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:36:36 (symbolp '|1|) 20:36:40 clhs 2.3 20:36:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_c.htm 20:36:42 Adlai: So I geuss a bette rquestion is, why is there the idea of the syntax of a number at all? 20:36:43 herbieB, ^ 20:36:46 potential numbers! 20:37:04 '\1 is shorter 20:37:10 herbieB: you want another namespace for numbers then? 20:37:12 clhs 2.3.1 20:37:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ca.htm 20:37:14 <_3b> herbieB: because we don't have church numerals implemented in CPU? 20:37:17 that is what I was aiming for ^ 20:37:18 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:21 (+ a (number 1)) 20:37:49 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:50 I guess I'm wondering why 1 isn't a symbol that evaluates whatever is appropriate for architecture 20:37:54 how about #n1 20:37:54 pfft, (+ ? cheating. (funcall #'+ ..) 20:37:57 (let ((1 (number 2)) (2 (number 0))) (* 1 2)) 20:37:59 no, only (number one) 20:38:10 even better, make #\° a readmacro 20:38:13 °1 20:38:32 [+ $1 $2] is pretty minimal lambda syntax, too. 20:38:41 but I think magical vars sort of smell :) 20:38:41 here comes APL 20:38:46 sykopomp: if by minimal you mean maximal, then yes 20:39:06 drewc: typing-wise. maximal mental overhead :D 20:39:07 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:39:15 Hun [~hun@95-89-70-43-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:29 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-21-67-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:46 what about just (lambda-list)(one-form) 20:39:55 For instance, why would you disallow (set 1 2)? 20:39:57 it doesn't cover multiple forms in the body, but it's nice and quick for the common case 20:40:09 herbieB: why would you _allow_ it? 20:40:11 herbieB: why would you allow? 20:40:18 herbieB, the "1" gets read as a number. Maybe you want (set \1 2) 20:40:29 Adlai: hate the idea of having to type special symbols every time. 20:40:33 Ah, ok, so set \1 2 works 20:40:36 (but then you'd need to have (symbol-value \1) be some other symbol) 20:40:36 herbieB: you know that we're talking about a programming language right? 20:40:53 sykopomp: you seem to focused on what you type .. who cares, use emacs! 20:40:56 drewc: Yes, I'm just following a mental rabbit hole personally 20:40:56 *_3b* wonders how often a short curry or compose syntax would be enough 20:41:07 _3b, Arc to the rescue! 20:41:12 emacs schmemacs... *mutters* 20:41:18 foo:~bar.baz!hello 20:41:23 woo 20:41:34 _3b: nikodumus has an excellent response to that as well IMO 20:41:48 I guess I would like it to be a sumbol because having #'1 would be useful at times. 20:41:49 <_3b> seems like i only mind the LAMBDA when the body is simple 20:41:49 maybe that's what Xach was linking too earlier actually. 20:42:12 drewc: what's the response?... 20:42:26 herbieB: useful for confusing 20:42:31 <_3b> drewc: well, if i had my preference, all this stuff would be handled at editor level anyway :) 20:42:46 how about  and  instead of OR and AND :D 20:43:01 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-5.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:43:08 drewc, what Xach linked earlier was about call-with-foo 20:43:11 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.5] has joined #lisp 20:43:17 Adlai: if you want APL, ... you know the rest 20:43:17 Adlai: APL is why. 20:43:39 APL is just a programming language... I want a powerful lisp! 20:43:42 *Adlai* ducks 20:43:47 herbieB: (defun \1 () 1) ... if you accept that fact that you have to escape the name, you have a function #'1 20:44:12 if only you could set *read-base* to 0 20:44:15 drewc: Nodnod. My other question du jour is whether there is a way to do a reader macro on nothing 20:44:27 http://random-state.net/log/3409830445.html ? 20:44:31 herbieB, what? 20:44:36 herbieB: no, but a number is not nothing is it? 20:44:49 Take opfr 20:44:53 Xach: that's the one! 20:45:06 Could you implement opfr as a reader macro, where it calls your reader macro as soon as it reads anything 20:45:15 sykopomp: that link Xach just posted is the one i was refering to 20:45:17 herbieB, no 20:45:28 Xach: very good link btw 20:46:03 herbieB: that's not how the reader works... reader macros dispatch on characters... that's like the definition! 20:46:13 herbieB: ll(1) only 20:46:34 Yeah, that's what I thought, but I awnted to make sure :) 20:46:47 <_3b> well, you could just do the dispatch on /every/ character trick :p 20:46:47 herbieB: but, nothing is stopping you from writing READ-FOO of course :) 20:47:24 drewc: Yeah, this isn't a practical concern, I'm trying to teach someone, so I try to reduce the problem to the fundamentals. 20:47:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:48:12 _3b: you'd have to know every character.. i'm pretty sure there is no portable way to pull off the that trick :) 20:48:50 drewc: incorrect! loop below char-code-limit and use code-char! 20:48:53 or you could dispatch before you even call READ! :D 20:49:29 Xach: oh of course, that shold work! 20:49:31 Well, it would be a neat featuer to be able to define a dispatcher that happens pre-read :P 20:49:38 -!- kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:49:43 I have no idea if it would every be practical, ha 20:49:49 herbieB: i think those are called 'functions' .. try using DEFUN :P 20:49:58 stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:50:04 since when is there a sb-int:sbcl-homedir-pathname ? Should ASDF 2 be using that instead of (getenv "SBCL_HOME") ? 20:50:10 herbieB: a gray stream and you're set! 20:50:17 (progn (shadow 'cl:read) (defun read ..)) 20:50:39 -!- jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:50:59 drewc: Well, the point would be to implement a reader macro based system for other languages 20:51:22 Fare: if it's in sb-int, no 20:51:31 Xach: "The value of char-code-limit might be larger than the actual number of characters supported by the implementation.". A minor wrinkle. 20:51:31 20:51:31 20:51:42 *drewc* looks at erc sideways ... 20:51:49 drewc: However, code-char is specified to return nil on codes that don't correspond to a supported character. 20:51:53 drewc: tell irc to ignore blank lines ;) 20:51:58 err erc blah! 20:52:00 Krystof, thanks! 20:52:16 Xach: brilliant, they _have_ thought of everything! 20:52:32 drewc: also the call-with-* way of doing things works a charm! 20:52:36 even if they hadn't, you could use ignore-errors, with all the associated fun 20:53:15 Krystof, while you're here, is there a good reason to prefer DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION over a manually wrapping do-perform function to implement restarts around perform in ASDF? It's cool, but making port to e.g. ABCL harder. 20:53:46 Fare: that excuse, but for clisp, was why it wasn't used before, right? 20:53:52 10 years ago? 20:53:55 yes 20:53:59 is it that long? 20:54:05 I'm rounding to the closest 10 20:54:17 whoa, doesn't make me feel younger, anyway. 20:54:22 kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:54:30 herbieB: what do you mean by 'a reader macro based system for other languages' ... what other languages have an extensible reader? 20:55:15 *_3b* parsed that as using reader macros to read other languages into lisp 20:55:25 drewc: No, I mean it the other way. Instead of encapsulating a ruby file in a #R block, you would just call the lisp reader on the ruby file itself 20:55:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:55:51 is anyone using asdf:split ? Is it OK for me to change its API when using optional (now keyword) arguments? 20:55:51 herbieB: why not just call the ruby reader? 20:56:27 drewc: Because the ruby reader doesn't give me back sexprs? 20:56:42 herbieB: only because you have not written it to do so. 20:58:04 <_3b> herbieB: just call the function that would be on the #r macro directly instead of calling read 20:58:20 <_3b> (or something like that, adjusted for arguments expected by a read macro function) 20:58:23 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:38 Of course we could do that, but then why have reader macros at all if that's always the answer? 20:58:46 why do you want to try and use an ll(1) lexer/parser, meant for transforming _an_ external representation of s-expressions into _the_ internal representation, to attempt to lex and parse such an irregular (non-sexp based) syntax? 20:58:54 herbieB, read macros are composable. what you want isn't. 20:59:39 drewc: Because I want to have file formats (like csv) parsed by the reader directly 20:59:53 why? 20:59:58 that's nonsense really.... 21:00:05 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:09 Because I want the full power of the language in a comma delimited file 21:00:26 still not making any sense. 21:00:30 And I was wondering if I could do it without surrounding the file with some special dispatch character 21:00:32 drewc: well I the other night wrote my php unserializer using a modified readtable. ^-^ 21:00:37 <_3b> herbieB: what is the difference between calling a function READ-FOO that sets up the reader for language FOO and calls READ, vs calling READ-FOO that does something else? 21:00:42 I think that is what herbieB wants to do too 21:01:36 herbieB: just read the files in with a modified readtable, just don't directly modify the standard readtable. You can put in the modified readtable whatever you want and dispatch on whatever you want. 21:01:43 *_3b* assumes the intended API isn't to build up read tables etc by hand for every READ call, so once you wrap it, it is just an implementation detail 21:02:04 _3b: of course not, call-with-* thanks to drewc :D 21:02:11 In the case of reading a language file, yes. But I'd also like to write code at the repl, for instance 21:02:13 you only build the readtable once. 21:02:32 nixeagle: did you use the readtable because it was a good way to take the data you had and get it into sexps, or because you 'wanted the full power of the language in [your serialized php]' 21:02:45 drewc: to get it into sexps 21:02:49 right. 21:03:02 I'd assume that is what herbieB wants too ^-^ 21:03:13 that makes sense... you have data, you want to read it into lisp, and it's regular enough that the reader is useful 21:03:14 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:03:35 nixeagle: would it matter if your function was called php-read and didn't use the readtable at all? 21:03:38 drewc: exactly, plus the reader handles the recursion for me ;) 21:04:04 drewc: no not really at all other then I'd have to write all the variations. 21:04:14 quick question: What do you recommend for reading configuration (which might include information about servers etc) - LOAD or READ? 21:04:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:05:05 unicode [~user@95.214.62.140] has joined #lisp 21:05:19 -!- sthuebner [~sthuebner@p54BDFFAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 21:05:35 nixeagle: yeah, fair enough.... gray streams can work there again though... you READ from a gray stream, that stream php-reads the real stream and PRINTs sexps to the gray stream... actually, doesn't even need to be a gray stream does it? 21:05:44 well, yes, it does... 21:05:53 p_l, I'd recommend READing some configuration data, rather than using LOAD... it's much easier to make sure that the former doesn't execute unexpected code 21:06:14 set *READ-EVAL* to nil though ;) 21:06:20 or does it... i have a head cold and can't think! 21:06:44 what about interning? 21:06:57 p_l: i use trivial-configuration usually 21:07:02 minion: trivial-configuration 21:07:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``trivial-configuration''. 21:07:06 err 21:07:10 minion: trivial-config 21:07:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``trivial-config''. 21:07:13 hrm 21:07:16 what's it called? 21:07:32 -!- prxq [~mommer@f052058038.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:32 trivial-configuration-parser? 21:07:36 minion: trivial-configuration-parser? 21:07:37 trivial-configuration-parser: trivial-configuration-parser is a trivial parser library for configuration files. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-configuration-parser 21:07:40 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:07:49 herbieB: which, BTW, is a good use of the readtable :) 21:07:52 hello 21:07:57 drewc: by latching onto the reader, I can read serialized php data and not care about how its done. The reader covers that for me. This is the same reason why I learned how to use the pretty printer for serializing back. Both of these are already well debugged, so any bugs I see are likely from my translations, not from the parser/printer code. 21:08:30 nixeagle: that's a good reason for using the reader too. 21:08:40 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:09:06 drewc, there's also py-configparser... ever used that? 21:09:18 -!- holycow [~new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:24 minion, py-configparser 21:09:24 py-configparser: This package reimplements the Python module ConfigParser in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/py-configparser 21:09:41 (I guess that's more for p_l ) 21:09:59 Adlai: nope, looks way too involved for my tastes :) 21:10:01 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.62.140] has quit [Client Quit] 21:10:05 ... I think I'll go with LOAD after all. More flexible. 21:10:19 drewc, it's good for libraries that need to be configured by NonLispers 21:10:48 p_l, READ is just as "flexible" if you leave *READ-EVAL* as T........ 21:11:02 p_l: That's what I do. Usually I want code to be loaded in there :) 21:11:05 (aside from toplevelness) 21:11:19 Adlai: so is trivial-configuration-parser, only the latter is one file, very simple, uses the lisp reader, and wasn't written as a clone of a python library :) 21:11:35 *Adlai* checks out this trivial beast 21:12:18 I was considering using LOAD with few simple macros&functions to form a "DSL" of sorts 21:12:29 Adlai: that said, if you _need_ something non-trivial, then using the trivial package is ill-advised :) 21:12:30 jmbr_ [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:12:51 p_l: because you hate your end uses, or because you love them? 21:12:55 users* 21:13:32 drewc, just glancing at it, it doesn't support the syntax that my blub app has to deal with... then again, it's a very simple syntax that could probably be hacked into trivial-config-parser painlessly 21:14:10 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:14:15 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: sleepy time] 21:14:29 i've used everything from a .lisp that was LOADED into cl-user, to a full blown compile-time and load-time and run-time configuration management scheme that worked from the command line, from /etc, or from the environment... and various mixes of the two. 21:14:52 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:16 unicode [~user@95.214.62.140] has joined #lisp 21:16:32 drewc: because the noobs will use CLI interface to manage that config and the advanced ones will manage with LOAD 21:17:05 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:17:44 p_l: are your advanced users Lisp programmers? 21:17:59 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.9.103] has joined #lisp 21:18:26 (and trusted?) 21:18:33 drewc: again thanks for the call-with and using a thin macro wrapper around that. \o/ I'm going to do a little testing and release this sucker tonight! 21:18:43 nixeagle: glad to be of service :) 21:19:04 I have it working for both read/print \o/ 21:19:25 drewc: the target is lisp programmers, it's just that there will be also a simple CLI interface that will cover the usual configuration tasks for new users 21:20:14 p_l: if that's the case, LOAD is probably fine... but keep in minimal! 21:20:18 keep it* 21:21:23 p_l: or, don't bother with a configuration file, and have advanced users put something in their .sbclrc or whatever... i've done this too 21:23:06 drewc: the thing will probably be a static binary from ECL :) 21:23:30 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:23:45 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:24:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:24:40 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 21:24:55 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:26:21 p_l: what _is_ this thing that is targetted towards lisp programmers yet comes as a static binary built on a relatively obscure implementation? :) 21:26:37 *drewc* is now interested :) 21:27:51 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:28:05 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:30:22 -!- jmbr_ is now known as jmbr 21:33:00 drewc: clbuild crossed with ASDF-Install, with heavy input from Cabal-install 21:33:25 lets say i have a file foo.lisp, is there anyway to determine where that file is on the filesystem from within the file? 21:33:49 clhs *load-truename* 21:33:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm 21:33:55 clhs *compile-file-truename* 21:33:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_cmp_fi.htm 21:34:49 *compile-file-truename* is what i need thanks 21:35:12 drewc: I'd say such a tool would be better off as standalone :) 21:35:14 thanks 21:35:15 p_l: differences from, say. lispy? 21:35:32 p_l: cause now i'm _really_ interested :) 21:35:59 I like lispy. 21:36:12 Fade: i know :) 21:36:22 truth in advertising. 21:36:39 lispy? First time I heard 21:36:59 you should look at it. 21:37:23 just found it 21:37:41 Maybe I'll just contribute to lispy, instead 21:37:42 yeah, agreed... it's well thought out and functional any way.... i have not really looked hard at the code itself. 21:38:10 if clbuild is the bsd ports of the lisp world, lispy is more dpkg. 21:38:19 p_l: probably a good idea, unless what you have in mind is radically different 21:39:04 *drewc* has a 3/4 baked 'apt-get for lisp' sitting on one of his hdd's somewhere 21:39:21 Is it normal to define a group of functions like (flet ((...) ...) (defun ...) ...)? Or is this not a good idea? (style question) 21:39:58 -!- xvx [~user01@189.139.219.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:40:00 nixeagle: i'd personally find that a bit odd, unless you have really good reasons for the FLETS (like they close over something) 21:40:34 if you're worried about poluting your namespace, that's what packages are for :) 21:40:37 Just define the functions in the global package/not export them? 21:40:40 *_deepfire* has a baked 'apt-get for lisp' with a buildbot sitting on his git repository 21:40:56 antifuchs: ping 21:41:05 nixeagle: yeah, or create a -sys package 21:41:05 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:11 I'm just looking over my code for this serialization library and that is just smelling :P 21:41:11 <_deepfire> with a 'web-enabled buildbot', actually 21:41:17 nixeagle: in a recent project, i had almost one package per file 21:41:18 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Quit: I'll be back B)] 21:41:47 drewc: hah! well this lib is 140 lines, including test cases at the end. 21:41:55 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:41:57 dispatcher-implementation, dispatcher-api, dispatcher-syntax and dispatcher <---- 4 packages for that one 21:42:24 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:44 well I don't like the flet, and you gave me a good excuse to remove it :) 21:42:50 ftw-dispatcher is 504 lines including whitespace and comments... so just about one package per 125 loc 21:43:00 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:07 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:43:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:43:42 drewc: not bad, its good to logically separate the code like that if its easy to specify the interfaces and you don't have to do foo-blah::bar too much. (note the double colon) 21:44:19 nixeagle: i found it really helped to clean the code up... defining sharp borders between implementation, interface and syntax 21:44:38 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:54 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 21:44:54 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:56 it was a logical following of the previous refactoring, which was to take a 'framework' and turn it into 6 or so independant libraries 21:45:20 that _really_ cleaned things up... reducing coupling is almost always a win 21:45:21 jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:46:04 indeed. Now I need to remove these eos unittests though and put them in their own package. I'd hate to require eos when I'm not depending on any other library ^-^ 21:46:11 (of course, sometimes splitting a library into two required a third library that combined them. I don't mind this approach at all) 21:46:15 grooming the exports forms is kind of a pita. 21:46:42 Fade: yeah, but like bathing, it's nice to do if only out of respect for others :P 21:46:51 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.62.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:55 good point 21:47:14 and there _is_ a single keystroke for 'export this symbol from this package' :) 21:47:30 drewc: emacs? 21:47:47 nixeagle: of course! 21:47:53 can I see! 21:47:56 M-x slime-export-symbol-at-point :) 21:48:04 ahh, slime 21:48:05 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-200-36.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:13 drewc: does that modify the export form for me ;) 21:48:31 mmm probably hard to do, so I'm going to guess no 21:48:31 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:48:38 you guessed wrong 21:48:49 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.5] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 21:48:54 stassats: really! 21:48:55 nixeagle: it does, and puts you in the buffer with your cursor on the new symbol in your defpackage form 21:49:05 it's like magic! 21:49:07 beautiful. 21:49:14 oh I love pleasant surprises 21:49:23 remember, if it's a PITA in lisp, it's probably solved in SLIME :D 21:49:31 *Fade* laughs 21:50:02 drewc: indeed, I have a fair few slime helpers, but was totally unaware of this useful thing :D 21:50:06 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1DC49.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:50:26 nixeagle: i just learned about it from trittweiler a few weeks ago :) 21:50:54 well thanks for passing that along! This will make my life easier :) 21:51:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:51:56 ooh its in slime-package-fu, I wonder what else is in there :D 21:52:20 slime is one of those systems that keeps surprising me with awesome stuff. 21:52:28 same! 21:52:32 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 21:52:47 mining slime and the contribs in your spare time, assuming you've got the CLHS memorized already, is a great way to become more productive :) 21:53:23 slime memorizes CLHS for me 21:53:28 drewc: I'm hoping I'm getting to that point, I got to common lisp from emacs lisp. I loved extending emacs so much and realized it was the lisp that made it so fun. 21:53:49 stassats: it does? that must be new :P 21:54:02 drewc: I think he means hyperspec lookup ^-^ 21:54:47 i thought he was trying to say 'i don't need to know what's in the hyperspec because slime has completion and documentation lookup', and was being facetious :) 21:54:51 drewc: my big one I found this week is swank:eval-in-emacs. Really useful for controlling org-mode from common lisp 21:55:29 *drewc* points to cl-org-mode as even _more_ useful :P 21:55:42 drewc: not quite complete enough _yet_ ;) 21:55:56 wfm, ymmv :) 21:56:11 indeed :) 21:57:05 So, either of you two render something to an image in CL, then pass the image over to emacs to display? 21:57:24 nyef: i have never done that, but it sounds _cool_! 21:58:00 drewc: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/shot1.png shows some of the basics. 21:58:29 *_3b* did that for a while, emacs got slow with a bunch of images in one buffer though :( 21:58:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:30 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:59:35 nyef: that _is_ cool :) 21:59:58 patrick collinson posted patches for that on slime-devel 22:00:06 drewc: I basically render to pnm, which can then be passed to create-image. 22:01:47 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:08 drewc: wow, that export thing is just awesome 22:02:11 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:02:32 kenpp` [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:02:44 nixeagle: it makes futzing about with packages a little easier, don't it :) 22:03:19 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:33 indeed! no having to open two buffers at a time or type the symbols out because tab completion (slime-fuzzy) does not match very well with #:foo-bar-baz it wants foo-bar-baz 22:03:37 -!- kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 22:04:48 *drewc* also points to M-/ .. great for when M-Tab can't find your symbol 22:05:08 drewc: know about it :) 22:05:09 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:16 still a pita compared to this 22:05:21 true 22:05:25 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:05:39 you made my day \o/ 22:05:42 jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:07:23 did you know: you can press C-c C-y while in a function definition and it will insert (function _) in the repl? 22:08:31 -!- blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:21 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09:54 stassats: nope! brilliant! 22:10:25 isn't there a similar function for a stack frame? 22:10:27 or (make-instance 'foo ) if in a defclass (that's new) 22:10:42 drewc: there is 22:11:09 C-y for stack frames 22:11:14 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 there should be slime "tip of the day" 22:13:40 totally, i was just having that exact though 22:13:42 t 22:14:22 there should be a "Practical Slime" book. 22:14:26 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:14:33 Fade: nah more docs XD 22:15:45 use the source, luke 22:18:33 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.9.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19:30 at this point I think slime is much too large a system to seriously consider the source as documentation. :) 22:19:51 pile of hacks, all right 22:22:02 <_rata_> i didnt get the whole thing about call-with-* 22:22:10 <_rata_> what was the point? 22:22:24 <_rata_> and i dont get how to use it either :( 22:23:50 <_rata_> for example, i have the following simple macro: (defmacro with-kauffman (&body body) `(let ((molecule? #'(lambda (x) (stringp x)))) ,@body)) 22:24:04 <_rata_> how would i use the call-with-* for this? 22:25:14 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:24 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:58 jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:26:30 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:26:39 It's typically bad form to just randomly bind a variable (molecule?, in this case) with a fixed name not passed in as a parameter within a macroexpansion... And I managed to not express that right. 22:27:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:28:20 <_3b> aside from that style issue, you would just expand to `(call-with-foo (lambda (molecule?) ,@body)) 22:28:25 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-136-249-169.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:27 <_rata_> ok... really i wanted to ask something before that question... is there a way to have "dynamically scoped" functions in CL? 22:29:33 <_3b> contextl maybe? (assuming you don't mean lexically scoped like flet or labels) 22:29:51 <_rata_> no, i mean dynamically scoped 22:30:11 Dynamically scoped function -bindings-, maybe? 22:30:51 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a37.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:04 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:31:06 <_rata_> what i managed to do was to define a dynamically scoped variable "molecule?" which is a lambda expression and a function named "molecule?" as well which do (funcall molecule? x) 22:31:17 isn't that in the relm of `special'? 22:31:20 <_rata_> nyef: what's that? 22:31:48 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 22:31:58 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 22:33:23 hi, I'm trying to use HTML tidy (libtidy) with cffi on SBCL, but somehow one function has this characteristic: Evaluation took: 0.581 seconds of real time 0.000000 seconds of total run time (0.000000 user, 0.000000 system) 0.00% CPU 777,124,416 processor cycles 20,440 bytes consed 22:33:34 why does it take 500msec, when user is 0 and system is 0 too 22:33:54 Functions are objects, thus values, thus have extent and not scope. 22:34:03 _rata_: that sounds sort of like a symbol macro. 22:34:09 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:34:09 You don't talk about the scope of a value, you talk about its extent. 22:34:27 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-136-249-169.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 22:34:31 When you discuss the scope of a variable, you're referring to the scope of the binding, which is the mapping from its name to its value. 22:34:34 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:17 (time (sleep 0.5)) => Evaluation took: 0.501 seconds of real time; 0 user, 0 system 22:35:17 22:35:28 <_rata_> ok... then i want a dynamically scoped binding for a function 22:36:18 <_rata_> Fade: I dont know anything about symbol macros yet... I'm just learning common lisp for a month 22:36:51 clhs define-symbol-macro 22:36:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 22:37:37 -!- milanj [~milan@93.86.187.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:37:39 <_rata_> ok, thanks :) I'll check it soon 22:38:43 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-5.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:39:00 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:32 So, I saw recently (yesterday or today) that the entire reason for adding define-symbol-macro to common lisp is to allow for users to implement ISLISP "global lexicals" with them. 22:39:41 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.4] has joined #lisp 22:39:59 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:27 it's a curious construct, but it turns out to be quite useful in some contexts. 22:41:02 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:13 ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has joined #lisp 22:44:18 -!- benny [~benny@i577A89BD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:44:29 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:44:54 -!- Mandar [~armand@pha75-21-78-228-186-233.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:45:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: night] 22:47:09 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:30 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:33 benny [~benny@i577A8932.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:47:47 jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:48:02 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:35 how can one redirect stderr to /dev/null on sbcl? 22:54:53 ignotus: sbcl 2>/dev/null ? 22:55:07 (Just like any other application invoked from a shell?) 22:55:09 nyef: I would like to do it from inside the SBCL process 22:55:16 sorry I should have said that before 22:55:19 Ah. There are a couple of ways. 22:55:38 Depending on if you just want to squelch output, or if you actually want to have an effect on the file descriptors. 22:56:41 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:44 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178198106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:54 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@guestlaptop-21.cis.uoguelph.ca] has joined #lisp 22:58:37 -!- kenpp` [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:38 (setf sb-sys:*stderr* (sb-sys:make-fd-stream 2 :name "standard error" :output t :file "/dev/null" :buffering :full)) 22:58:42 this is my best tip, put it doesn't work 22:59:02 nyef: I just want to squelch, temporarily 22:59:12 (while some foreign libraries are running) 22:59:19 Ahh. 22:59:30 You're trying to squelch foreign library access to stderr? 22:59:38 nyef: oh, yes 22:59:40 That -does- need to monkey with the FDs. 22:59:54 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:08 Doesn't need to monkey with streams, actually, just the FDs. 23:00:27 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 23:01:06 ignotus: Define "squelch temporarily" 23:01:36 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:49 reb: before I start a foreign function, I would like to reopen stderr to /dev/null, and after the function finished I want stderr to be working again, as usual 23:01:50 What you do is (sb-unix:unix-close 2), then (sb-unix:unix-open "/dev/null" sb-unix:o_wronly 0), and hope you get a 2 back. 23:01:54 If a foreign library writes to standard error, where do you want the data to go. Afterward, how do you want standard error wired up? As it was before? 23:02:00 nyef: wrong 23:02:09 What, it's 3, not 2? 23:02:19 It's nasty, it's unportable... 23:02:23 reb: I don't need stderr during the foreign function call, so it can go to dev/null, after that I want stderr to be working again, yes 23:02:24 no, the "hope you get" 23:02:37 It's not supported by the SBCL devs... 23:02:39 p_l: Oh? 23:02:49 foreign functions outputs lots of spurious data I don't need and mess with my messages 23:02:51 man dup2 23:02:51 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/dup2.2.html 23:02:53 First, since you want standard error to be wired up as before, you cannot close it. 23:02:55 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 23:03:00 Meh. You can do that, I suppose. 23:03:09 nyef: that's the proper and official way 23:03:24 Same thing applies, then. 23:03:38 -!- Hun [~hun@95-89-70-43-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:53 actually, I think that open never returns descriptors in range of 0-2 23:04:15 Yes, you'll need to use dup. You dup standard error, then close it, then open /dev/null and maybe dup it to standard error if it ends up elsewhere, then run the foreign command. 23:04:48 -!- _rata_ [~929bd90b@gateway/web/freenode/x-yyziowfyhxxquhyr] has quit [] 23:05:02 Then close the new /dev/null standard error and dup the old standard error back to descriptor 2, then close the place where you originally dup'd it. 23:05:10 lol thanks 23:05:11 checking 23:05:15 ... maybe that will work. 23:05:43 *p_l* ponders if VMS' posix support locks descriptor 3 23:05:49 reb: closing is optional since dup2 does it if needed :P 23:05:49 thank you guys 23:06:58 ignotus: reusable libraries should not generate output 23:07:46 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:46 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@14.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:48 reb: yeah, but I thouht it would be easier to turn off stderr, than to configure 3rd parties one-by-one to make them silent. I may reconsider now.:D 23:07:58 Any library spewing to stderr without so much as a by-your-leave is uncouth to say the least. 23:08:17 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:08:29 Would be in character for open-sores UI toolkits, though. :-/ 23:08:39 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.99] has joined #lisp 23:09:40 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:12:22 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:09 clhs sort 23:14:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 23:14:36 borism [~boris@213-35-234-26-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 23:14:59 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:15:07 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:07 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:15:07 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:15:31 Hrm... SORT works if you only have a partial order, right? 23:21:25 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:23:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:23:12 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:24:17 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-19-24-163.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:26:23 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-19-23-47.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:24 Orest^bnc [~Orest@81.169.174.192] has joined #lisp 23:26:51 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:26:54 Any XML users here? 23:27:11 what do you got on them? 23:27:34 golddog [~golddog@84-217-122-101.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:12 I have an XSD file. What Common Lisp tools are available to parse and create XML that complies with the schema? 23:30:21 hmm... as far as I know, none, but it should be possible to make one with existing tools 23:30:46 the question is, do you want to do it on the fly or generate source files? 23:31:26 my only real contact with such tools was with .NET 23:31:52 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-120-53.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:34 Hmm... is there any ubuntu compatible IDE that's a little more... newcomer friendly than emacs for developing commonlisp nowadays? 23:33:06 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-152-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:11 (last time i seriously coded lisp I used Fred on a mac... and that was ten years ago :D ) 23:33:14 golddog: Are you targetting a specific implementation of CL? 23:33:15 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:33:28 kencausey: not really, just wanna get back into it :) 23:33:51 Well, I suspect the majority opinion is that for a general solution, it doesn't get friendlier than emacs 23:34:18 I'd love to use clozure-cl (since that's basically MCL) but it looks like it's gonna be sbcl since I don't want to spend days making it play nice with common-lisp-controller 23:34:22 Specific implementations (primarily commercial) may provide something that certain people consider more friendly, but even then not everyone agrees 23:34:32 forget about common-lisp-controller 23:34:54 minion: tell golddog about clbuild 23:34:55 golddog: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:34:57 heh, I know everyone says emacs... but not even if I up my meds I can remember all the chords and stuff 23:35:06 oooh 23:35:17 that sounds nice 23:35:17 minion: slime? 23:35:17 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 23:36:00 <_3b> you could try eclipse+cusp, or mclide, or able... no idea what state any of those are in though 23:36:09 p_l: I'm agnostic. I'm interfacing with a service that exchanges data compliant with a given XSD. I can generate classes in advance that correspond to the XML elements in the XSD. 23:36:21 Hrm. 7 files, 771 lines total, and each file defines its own package. 23:36:49 <_3b> hmm, maybe not mclide... thought i saw something about it being ported outside mac 23:36:53 There's something to be said for the approach. 23:37:03 _3b: just spent an unproductive hour battling eclipse (which doesn't play nice on 64bit) 23:37:04 only 6 lines left! 23:37:30 might check out able though 23:38:13 ... I guess it also makes it trivial to sort out dependencies: Each file starts with a defpackage. Open the file, read the first form, and build your dependency tree from the :use information. 23:40:15 drewc: Okay, I'm half-convinced about the benefits of having many many packages. 23:41:02 nyef: that's about as convinced as i am 23:41:53 The one-package-per-file thing has some serious logistical advantages, though. 23:42:10 Just in terms of dependency management. 23:45:32 lukego [~lukegorri@c-c725e655.1410-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:47:54 oh my 23:48:08 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 23:48:13 my old companys website still exists... 23:48:43 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661bc0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 23:49:04 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661bc0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:00 :') 23:51:12 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:17 ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has joined #lisp 23:52:18 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:56 Hrm... To continue with nq-clim, or to just say "screw it" and move on to something else, that is the question... 23:59:11 <_3b> any info on it available? 23:59:23 devslashnull [~james@dyn-105.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:59:35 Not really. 23:59:43 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-53-82-65-12-248.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:59:56 It's my investigation into implementing the CLIM specification, or something like it.