00:03:22 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:03:47 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:04:00 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 00:04:59 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-101-83.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:05:43 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:11 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:08:16 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:46 -!- trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:59 syamajala [~syamajala@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:55 MrSamuel [~MrSamuel@60-234-246-33.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:15:24 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 00:17:10 how do i check if the last thing in a list is the number 3? 00:17:14 i am new to lisp 00:17:22 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:26 i tried (eq (last ex) 3) but it doesn 00:17:26 clhs last 00:17:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_last.htm 00:17:35 doesn't seem to work 00:17:35 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:36 maybe you should figure out what last actually does 00:17:46 and what eq does 00:17:53 rahul: thats what i' 00:17:55 i'm doing 00:18:09 i can't find good documentation about it though 00:18:12 <_3b> MrSamuel: what does (last ex) return? 00:18:13 eq will work for this comparison, but that's not really guaranteed 00:18:15 um 00:18:24 MrSamuel: I just pointed you to good documentation 00:18:32 _3b: when i run it in clisp, I get (3) 00:18:38 which seems like a list with one element 00:18:44 MrSamuel: (= 3 (car (last list))) 00:18:58 fe[nl]ix: thanks 00:19:01 MrSamuel: which is what the spec says it should do 00:19:02 that makes sense 00:19:53 it actually returns the n-element tail of the list 00:19:55 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:03 where n is 1 by default 00:20:09 i see 00:20:33 alexandria has a lastcar function for convenience 00:20:55 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:21:29 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1D3E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:23:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:23:45 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:29 trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 00:24:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:52 arbscht: Does it also have an optional parameter, so you can access the nth-from-last car? 00:26:59 no 00:27:12 how do I print out multiple things in one line 00:27:15 Quick! File a bug report! 00:27:18 i.e. (print "G " G) 00:28:20 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:20 -!- sierinjs [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has quit [Quit: mah eyez] 00:28:27 -!- rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:41 MrSamuel: You might try pprint. 00:28:48 MrSamuel: Or learn about FORMAT. 00:28:54 clhs pprint 00:28:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 00:28:55 clhs format 00:28:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 00:29:38 Oh. Or prin1. 00:29:44 That's on the pprint page. 00:29:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:30:59 nyef: I don't see the bug. LAST returns the N last elements. LASTCAR returns the LAST CAR, not the CAR of LAST. 00:31:37 I'd name it LAST-ELEMENT, however. Or the traditional LAST1. 00:31:39 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-kvpynnjzwyoidupc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:03 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:19 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:37:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:39:15 Well, the CLHS is more specific about LAST, saying it returns the last N conses (which hold the last N elements, given a proper list.. I suppose the parenthetical remark in the entry is to convey the requirement of identity and of working with dotted lists). Now here's the "bug": LASTCAR works on proper lists only. 00:39:15 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:41:47 hi 00:42:58 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-93371.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:45:14 hello brushie 00:45:49 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:46:26 excuses me do you know a quick tutorial on lisp for people who are already use to other programming languages i've found the practical common lisp but i dont feel it to be as straight 00:47:12 people who are already used to other programming languages may need to expend more effort to learn Lisp 00:48:13 brushie: as "straight" as what? straight to what? 00:48:19 crap :'(, i was thinking about taking some lisp skill to be more confortable on emacs, i though would be a story of one or two day :/ 00:49:20 pkhuong: like C code vs Lisp code just some bound exemple, and if possible an explanation of fonctionel language :) 00:49:40 so are you talking about Emacs Lisp? 00:50:01 emacs lisp is kind of common lisp no ? 00:50:07 brushie: The differences between C and Lisp aren't so superficial. 00:50:16 brushie: no, they are quite different 00:51:02 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:51:05 adeht, what's the difference, sorry i dont figure out the difference when watching at basic exemple 00:51:54 brushie: if you want to learn Lisp just to enhance your Emacs customization skills, it's not a big deal to get "productive" in a short time 00:52:19 brushie: but you should check the Emacs Lisp manual, rather than Practical Common Lisp 00:52:45 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:52:53 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:53:07 well in fact i basicaly "learn lisp exist" because of emacs, and i would like to be abble to understand and modify emacs script but i would like to be abble to write short script in the emacs when not in mood to make big C code 00:53:34 Emacs Lisp is like Common Lisp in the way that Spanish is like Latin. 00:53:46 wow that much ? 00:53:57 brushie: Have you seen cl.el? 00:54:11 Packages aside, a lot of CL works in elisp. There's even a CLOS implementation. 00:54:26 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.7] has joined #lisp 00:54:42 brushie: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-lisp-intro/ 00:55:40 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-12111.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 00:55:45 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:55 that "a lot of CL works in elisp" is beside the point, really.. the style of programming is quite different, and then there are all those Emacs-specific concepts and functions to know.. 00:56:48 :( i dont want to learn it if it's emacs specific, i though it was the real language :( 00:57:04 huh? 00:57:33 you can do many things with Emacs Lisp, as Emacs is a kind of operating system :) 00:57:47 i mean it was 1 stone 2 shot, emacs customization and my first fonctionnel language :/ 00:58:04 brushie: If it's complete enough to write a complete C++ parser, it's a real language. 00:58:30 speaking about cedet ? 00:58:38 Yes. 00:58:52 Or even before cedet, there were plenty of non-trivial things written in elisp. 00:58:56 Take GNU calc, for example. 00:59:05 It's a CAS. It'll perform symbolic integration and derivation. 00:59:37 brushie: realize that Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp are not functional languages (in the sense of avoiding side effects like the plague) 01:00:12 so caml isn't as well only haskell 01:01:05 So you prefer not having side effects? 01:01:11 That's what she complained about. 01:01:14 i may have miss understood the concept of functional, but for me if there is a "lambda" it is 01:02:12 "Functional" is a continuim. "Strongly functional" languages avoid side-effects and the whole program can be evaluated in terms of function application and abstraction, see lambda calculus. 01:02:23 There are no functional languges. 01:02:25 languages, even. 01:02:32 There are also no object-oriented languages. 01:02:34 Other Functional-ish languages (scheme, CL, etc) can pass functions around as variables. 01:02:55 These are properties of *programs*, not of *languages*. You can write a side-effect-free program in ANSI C if you were so inclined. 01:04:11 I always considered "functional" in this context to be an ambiguous term.. (i) no side-effects (ii) higher-order programming.. if you are talking about the second sense, then sure.. you can do higher-order programming in Emacs Lisp 01:04:24 (but it doesn't have lexical scoping.. so watch out) 01:04:37 adeht: lexical-let 01:05:03 yeah, does anyone use that hack? 01:05:06 quotemstr: sure you could, but some languages (like the lambda calc, or haskell) disallow the use of side effects. 01:05:10 Plenty of people do. 01:05:23 quotemstr: placing programs that do those things outside the language. 01:05:30 quotemstr: well slime does ;) 01:05:47 mooglenorph: haskell allows IO, which permits side effects via a side-channel. :-P 01:06:40 lol how can they disable IO ? :p 01:06:52 quotemstr: yeah, but they work very hard to keep it out of the "core" of the language (see, monads! :-P) 01:07:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:07:25 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 01:07:34 mooglenorph: My point is that if you tried hard enough, you could write a procedural program in Haskell. 01:07:54 mooglenorph: Languages might lend themselves to one style of programming or another, true. 01:08:38 quotemstr: sure. my point should've been phrased more carefully: that "functional" languages are a continuium on two axes: favorability of side-effect programming, and favorability of higher-order functions, in the language. 01:10:17 so both cl and haskell are in the functional family, but haskell is more extreme on the "side-effect-free" front. 01:10:55 does common and emacs lisp have the higher order functions ? 01:11:18 brushie: certainly. they can pass functions as variables, and create anonymous functions with lambda. 01:11:52 i think it is what i really need to learn, how to make simple task using this paradigm 01:11:59 So, functions are first-class objects in those languages. 01:12:10 how the Hell do you "pass functions as variables"?.. 01:12:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:12:49 adeht: all i'm referring to is stuff like map, it takes a function as an argument 01:13:08 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 01:13:15 so that is function as a value 01:14:07 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 01:14:22 adeht: sorry, you're right... I need to tighten up my vocabulary. 01:14:24 adeht: FUNCALL. 01:14:36 quotemstr: what about it 01:14:43 Well, right. They're all values. :) 01:15:39 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 01:18:34 timmcd [~Adium@97-117-98-39.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:58 -!- timmcd [~Adium@97-117-98-39.slkc.qwest.net] has left #lisp 01:19:07 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:23:13 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:24:29 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:35 I also prefer to reserve the term "functional" to the first sense. I.e., I would not say that a language is functional because it supports higher-order programming in some form. If that was the case, then C++98 would be a functional language (it has the concept of function objects, a.k.a. functors), and C++0x would be even more functional, as I heard somewhere that they're going to introduce anonymous functions. (But I'm not up to 01:24:35 date with C++ development for the last few years.) 01:25:45 (And of course, there's boost.greenspun.lambda.) 01:26:06 I like to say "cl has good support for higher order functions" and leave it at that. 01:26:06 davazp [~user@206.Red-88-8-227.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:44 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:59 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:39 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:00 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:37:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has joined #lisp 01:40:23 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 01:51:40 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:49 -!- airolson 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[~OmniMance@219-89-95-198.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:02:55 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:11:50 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:18:32 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:05 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-193-138.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:22:34 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-110-1.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:19 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:55 -!- sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:54 somnium [~user@adsl-152-14-131.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:57 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:45:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:20 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:52:55 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:01:39 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has left #lisp 06:02:34 lukego [~lukegorri@h163n2fls35o933.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:10 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-76-231.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:06:05 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:14:05 marab [~marab@189.179.98.68] has joined #lisp 06:14:39 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@h163n2fls35o933.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:18:44 What's this group about? 06:22:09 lukego [~lukegorri@h163n2fls35o933.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:22 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:27:03 -!- marab [~marab@189.179.98.68] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 06:27:06 marab [~marab@189.179.98.68] has joined #lisp 06:27:56 is there scheme for x86_64? 06:28:24 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@h163n2fls35o933.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:30 marab: this is not a scheme channel. Ask #scheme. 06:30:39 marab: This channel is about Common Lisp. 06:30:54 [and good morning everyone!] 06:31:01 beach: morn' 06:40:37 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 06:41:45 -!- marab [~marab@189.179.98.68] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 06:48:55 kevinfish [~fish@c-98-244-16-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:05 How do you set the function cell in lisp (like to alter a built in function)? 06:50:19 kevinfish: That's not allowed. 06:50:34 what about like in emacs? 06:50:39 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 06:50:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 06:50:49 kevinfish: Otherwise it is (setf (fdefinition ...) ...) 06:50:50 (setf (symbol-function x) y), but as noted, not permitted for built-ins. 06:51:12 ok. thx 06:51:32 (symbol-function) is what I was forgetting. 06:51:55 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:51:56 if you want to override a built-in function, I guess the "proper" way would be to shadow its name in your own package 06:52:16 there is apparently a bug in (load) in xemacs where it chokes if a path has a double "/" in it and I just want to hack it to make it work 06:53:08 Well, elisp isn't CL. 06:53:57 Zhivago: true, but I said lisp, not CL :) 06:54:08 kevinfish: /topic 06:54:17 Then you're a babbling moron. Lisp is not a language. 06:54:24 yeah, I see. 06:54:29 It is a family of languages which differ in many details. 06:54:51 Zhivago: way to be a douche about it, though. +1 06:55:14 sykopomp: Get your own shower. 06:56:45 gigamonkey: just saw the knuth interview on /., can't wait to get the book! 06:57:06 C@W is good stuff. 06:57:41 people still use xemacs? 06:57:51 Didier Verna does. 06:58:14 who's he? 06:58:21 Ralith: a few, but their channel only has like 5 ppl on it and are pretty slow in responding generally 06:58:51 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:59:54 I just moved to emacs from xemacs days ago 06:59:54 Ralith: He organises the European Lisp Workshop and he is a member of the steering committee of the European Lisp Symposium. And he is a maintainer of XEmacs. 07:00:03 was on xemacs just out of legacy purposes 07:00:28 xemacs had a few minor things better in its interface, emacs has a few in its, etc 07:02:14 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:05:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:06:14 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:43 -!- kevinfish [~fish@c-98-244-16-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:18:58 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:19:42 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:21:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:44:57 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 07:46:56 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Client Quit] 07:56:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:56:19 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 08:02:19 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:02:47 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:05:44 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 08:13:04 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:25 -!- rme [rme@clozure-DC352DBC.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 08:18:25 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 08:22:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:23:15 Ifur [~osm@73.84-48-93.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:58 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-198.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 08:26:02 ams [~ams@m83-185-77-97.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:27:34 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 08:27:37 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 08:28:02 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ef1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:20 fantasy125 [~pengyutan@222.129.48.109] has joined #lisp 08:36:45 -!- fantasy125 [~pengyutan@222.129.48.109] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:44:59 Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has joined #lisp 08:50:11 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 08:50:39 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:51:13 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:00:14 -!- Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:00:47 Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has joined #lisp 09:02:45 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:03:09 -!- Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has quit [Client Quit] 09:03:24 Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has joined #lisp 09:05:06 -!- Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has quit [Client Quit] 09:05:22 Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has joined #lisp 09:06:34 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:34 -!- Axius [~fd@92.82.82.179] has quit [Client Quit] 09:15:12 -!- JustaNumber [~xmonad@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:20:11 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E4AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:25 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:09 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:09 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 09:38:09 -!- MrSamuel [~MrSamuel@60-234-246-33.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: MrSamuel] 09:41:13 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:55 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 09:42:09 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 09:43:43 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:49:09 phao [~phao@189.107.223.74] has joined #lisp 09:49:25 Hi. Is there any website pointing out resources for LISP 09:49:28 like schemers for scheme. 09:49:44 Book lists, libraries, implementations, other websites, ... 09:49:46 minion: cliki 09:49:47 cliki: CLiki is a free collaborative hypertext (Web) authoring program, written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cliki 09:49:51 thank you. 09:50:05 also, the ALU Wiki and cl-user.net 09:50:14 phao: You can just ask for specific information, too 09:50:26 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:50:29 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 09:50:30 That has a higher chance to get you right at quality content 09:51:26 ok tcr. 09:53:16 And it's "Lisp" :-) 09:54:31 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:55:26 heh 09:55:38 I also tend to write ADA. 09:55:46 I think ADA is worse than LISP 09:56:00 LISP is valid if you're referring to the dialects of the 70s 09:56:17 We, who use the dialect of the 80s, feel of course contempt about those! 09:57:23 are there any case-sensitive lisps? 09:57:34 adu: Common Lisp 09:57:51 Scheme perhaps, too, phao will probably know 09:58:31 i thought case-insensitivity was required in CL? 09:58:49 adu: Nope, it's just that its reader upcases symbols by default 09:58:56 clhs *read-case* 09:58:56 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for *read-case*. 09:59:04 clhs read-case 09:59:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for read-case. 09:59:30 Holy shit, I'm losing expert creditentals like shit 09:59:48 clhs readtable-case 09:59:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 09:59:59 I never noticed that scheme was case-sensitive 10:00:11 because it is not, perhaps? 10:00:13 scheme is case insensitive, r5rs at least 10:00:14 I think SICP makes you forget abou tthat kind of detail 10:00:19 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:25 cmm, I'm using mzscheme 10:00:32 it didn't recognized DEFINE 10:00:56 mzscheme implements several different dialects, but I don't remember what its default is 10:01:05 why would you shout in your source, though? 10:01:18 I don't. 10:01:24 also, I think it has a rather cavalier attitude about conforming to r*rs 10:01:26 BECAUSE YOU CAN! 10:01:27 I just tried it... right now 10:01:32 (not that I'd blame it) 10:02:10 exit 10:02:15 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:03:22 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:37 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:04:19 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.234] has joined #lisp 10:04:31 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:24 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:47 at least r6rs explicitly allows default case-sensitivity 10:06:02 r5rs was silent on that matter iirc 10:07:56 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:09:23 adu: it is not http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-5.html#%_sec_2.1 10:11:50 stassats: i remembered incorrectly 10:12:30 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 10:19:14 pkhuong: So should combination-fun-source-name signal an error if the use is not a REF? 10:19:58 Axius [~fd@92.82.88.220] has joined #lisp 10:24:18 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A968.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:26:49 Hmm SBCL barfs if I try to define a method specializing on a non-existing class. I'd have expected that forward-references would be legal there, too. 10:30:30 migge_ [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:57 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.77.24] has joined #lisp 10:31:02 -!- migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:34:09 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:03 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 10:35:37 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.77.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:36:39 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@3e70ca66.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:38:50 But stupid PCL and doing optimization at macroexpansion time. 10:38:56 s/But/Bah/ 10:39:22 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-225.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:39:49 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:39:53 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:10 greetings all 10:42:46 a nice tune, check out the comment upvotes (4chan rigging?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s8S7QxpjeY 10:43:05 I'm surprised, given SBCL's pedantic character, that it isn't more strict about writing non-portable LOOPs. It has allowed me to form bad habits (when I care about ANSI-strictness, at least). 10:44:23 imagine my surprise when perfectly innocent combinations of WHILE/UNTIL and AS turns out not to be legal CL, at least according to clisp and ECL. 10:44:47 when in doubt, clisp is right 10:45:11 i doubt that 10:45:22 failing that, move to iterate 10:45:37 why not to NewLisp? 10:45:56 hefner: who combination exactly? (And who uses AS??) 10:46:05 tcr: I use AS constantly. 10:46:06 s/who/what/ 10:46:29 *tcr* is too much fiddling with xref stuff so it's who everywhere 10:46:43 here's a toy example: (loop until (zerop (random 4)) as j = (random 2) collect j) 10:47:08 conditional clauses must come before for clauses iirc 10:47:23 all my loop-fu i learned from the pfdietz test kit (and that other hosted cl from japan) 10:48:19 this seems stupid, because they don't complain if I replace while/until with FOR: (loop for i below 10 as j = (random 2) collect j) 10:48:50 i ran into that some problem, i think 10:49:00 COLLECT and COLLECTING behave the same for me 10:49:30 they shouldn't? 10:49:32 -!- weirdo_ [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:49:38 weirdo [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has joined #lisp 10:50:06 -!- weirdo is now known as Guest80207 10:50:15 So I forgot the details of the folklore, is using accessor instead of slot-value directly supposed to be faster in defmethod in SBCL? 10:50:35 tcr: that's what I've heard. 10:50:49 stassats: i bang on the keyboard until i see the "intended" effect wrt complex loops; their LOOP is very intuitive, or some of the keywords are being mal-parsed. 10:50:58 I wonder if that's still true because nikodemus, iirc, did some additional opts for slot-value. 10:51:16 And in case it is true, I wonder when and how the optimizations are performed. :-) 10:51:45 fusss: i can't make any sense from your words 10:53:06 stassats: i am not hacking now (at least not lisp, but beer) but will paste what i am talking about if/when it comes up. 10:53:08 *hefner* greps around, finds he averages using AS once every 136 lines of code. 10:53:28 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.77.214] has joined #lisp 10:57:17 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-123-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:57:53 -!- migge_ is now known as migge 11:04:05 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 11:05:15 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:07:29 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:33 benny [~benny@i577A8A64.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:24 I wonder why Swank-loader compiles all contribs for me 11:10:59 to not compile them later? 11:11:11 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:11:15 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:13:02 it's because swank-loader:setup pushes 'compile-contribs to swank:*after-init-hook* 11:13:10 but I have no idea when this hook is run 11:14:22 ah in setup 11:14:57 tcr, I think there's a section in the SBCL Internals manual about slot-value 11:18:03 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:18:04 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 11:18:12 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:19:39 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483E4AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:23:06 -!- sytse [~3.141592@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 11:23:09 sytse [sytse@speedy.student.ipv6.utwente.nl] has joined #lisp 11:24:01 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 11:24:14 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has joined #lisp 11:29:40 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has left #lisp 11:30:16 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.117.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 11:41:17 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A968.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 11:42:06 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:43:35 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #lisp 11:48:45 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:49:39 Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:53:49 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:53:59 stassats: why the translate-logical-pathname? 11:54:16 because it returns sys:src... 11:54:21 afaik, compiled-function-file is supposed to return a namestring 11:54:29 and emacs doesn't understand it 11:54:41 hm, really? 11:54:57 well, that's why it didn't work for me 11:55:57 what symbol did you try M-. on? 11:56:41 si::expand-set-documentation 11:57:45 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:57:57 I'll report that, I think it's a bug in ECL 12:00:47 huh 12:01:36 Translating that pathname results in a bogus path 12:01:39 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 12:03:12 and do you know whether it's possible or feasible to tell ecl not to use gcc for compiling? because gcc takes too much time while compiling swank and contribs 12:05:00 you can add ecl to #+(or corman) in swank-loader.lisp line 186 12:06:12 but debug information is better with going through the c compiler 12:06:21 alright 12:06:42 -!- Axius [~fd@92.82.88.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:07:06 p_l said he would like to make ecl use clang. FWIW. 12:07:13 and t-l-p on sys:src behaves strange to me too 12:07:51 -!- ams [~ams@m83-185-77-97.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 12:08:31 sys:src; is not the same as src: 12:08:46 sys: is the directory where ECL is installed 12:08:47 i've just noticed 12:08:50 src: the build directory 12:09:23 easyE once mentioned that CLHS recommends something in particular about sys:src;, so maybe that should changed 12:09:51 anyway, then it's strange with src: 12:10:06 doesn't include src/ subdirectory 12:10:42 I use slime at my school, and the description of functions in the bottom tiny buffer has syntax-highlighting. I just installed slime on my machine, and the descriptions are black and white. How do you enable the highlighting? 12:11:09 tmitt: do you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in .emacs? 12:11:28 No, I'll try that, thanks! 12:12:40 Worked. 12:12:40 tmpfile-to-buffer assumes that namestrings are returned 12:12:52 or rather note-buffer-tmpfile 12:12:57 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 12:13:42 I think there's a bug, because those logical hosts are set up at different places, once for compilation, once for run-time after ecl is built 12:16:55 I cannot reproduce raffael's bug 12:17:27 i could several days ago, but can't now 12:18:30 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:22:38 -!- OmniMancer2 [~OmniMance@219-89-95-198.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:27:09 can ecl save images? 12:27:32 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:51 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 Evet [~Evet@unaffiliated/evet] has joined #lisp 12:34:24 it can and i finally found how 12:44:26 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 12:45:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:47:27 I wonder why does SLIME's fancy inspector alphabetically sort the class slots by default(either that or by inheritance)? Sometimes it's useful to have them in definition order without sorting them (for example I have a class which defines a binary object, and it's helpful to be able to inspect them side by side). I've modified my local copy to have support for this feature, though i'd probably have to port it each time I update my SLIME. 12:47:37 ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has joined #lisp 12:47:39 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E4AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:03 i'm annoyed by that too 12:48:53 tcr: in the easy form, it would be enough to make ECL call clang instead of GCC. In the more complex one, it would require linking to clang as a library 12:49:51 stassats: the behaviour can be changed by modifying swank-fancy-inspector.lisp / all-slots-for-inspector / effective-slots 12:50:12 thanks, i'm aware of that 12:50:16 ah 12:57:06 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.5.193] has quit [] 13:00:24 which web framework you suggest? 13:00:35 your own! 13:00:37 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:07:41 ljames: i'll make it configurable and selectable, but it'd take a little bit longer than i expected 13:08:30 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:08:45 Should be straightforward 13:08:55 I think there's even a global variable to specify the default behaviour 13:09:54 if not, it's among the patches I once sent to you 13:09:56 that part is straightforward, but i want also to have more than two choices in the inspector 13:10:49 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:21 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:15:07 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:02 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 13:18:03 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:47 -!- Hex_Rex [~hex@c-24-245-20-150.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:22:58 ljames: i'll make it configurable and selectable, but it'd take a little bit longer than i expected <-- nice. In my local version I just added an additional option "group slots by definition order" to the other two "group slots alphabetically" and "group slots by inheritance", though it's just a quick hack. 13:24:26 ams [~ams@m83-185-65-142.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:26:54 tcr: I've observed an occasional problem with ECL and the Slime debugger. While attempting to expand the backtrace, I tend to get some error about sequences and indices 0 and 9 being invalid, or similar. I flail around and eventually it will expand the backtrace anyway. Is this something you're familiar with? 13:31:42 slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1C039.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:59 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.223.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:11 I rewrote the debugger (so to show special, restarts etc) but that isn't in cvs yet 13:35:28 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.225.169] has joined #lisp 13:35:52 I haven't encountered such problems in my rewrite 13:36:04 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66589f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 13:37:31 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 13:37:50 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:59 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38:38 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:40:19 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:23 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483E4AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:48:56 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:49:43 ned [~ned@c-71-233-209-245.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:17 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:07 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.225.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:52:57 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:54:38 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 13:56:15 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A968.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:56:50 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-225.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:57:07 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-69.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:59:54 Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:49 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A968.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:32 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A968.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:15:02 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 14:15:04 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:06 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:16:49 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:41 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:19:59 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:00 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:20:33 somedudgeadfasdf [~user@67-61-202-237.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:45 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-244-177.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:24:59 Is there any way to make this faster? 14:25:00 $ echo "(require :iterate)" > tmpfile 14:25:00 $ time sbcl --script /dev/null 14:25:00 0.01user 0.00system 0:00.02elapsed 100%CPU ... 14:25:03 $ time sbcl --script tmpfile 14:25:06 0.54user 0.06system 0:00.60elapsed 100%CPU ... 14:25:10 14:25:34 dump a core, and use that? 14:25:52 It's just a small script and I have like 50 of em. 14:25:59 That's like 30 meg per script 14:26:08 share the core across the scripts 14:26:34 not like sbcl isn't using a core already when it starts... you'd just use a different one for your scripts that includes cruft you need 14:26:50 include all the scripts in the same core and then just call the one you want? 14:26:51 minion: tell somedudgeadfasdf aboud build-app? 14:26:51 somedudgeadfasdf: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 14:26:59 minion: tell somedudgeadfasdf about build-app? 14:27:00 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``build-app''. 14:27:03 doh 14:27:07 minion: tell somedudgeadfasdf about buildapp? 14:27:07 somedudgeadfasdf: direct your attention towards buildapp: Buildapp is an application for SBCL that configures and saves an executable Common Lisp image. http://www.cliki.net/buildapp 14:27:07 I'd just live with it. 14:27:50 alright 14:28:21 It makes lisp basically useless for writing small unix-style scripts. 14:28:46 only if Lisp == SBCL 14:29:04 Are other lisps better at this? 14:29:14 you could use emacs and emacsclient 14:29:35 xcl is fast. http://www.armedbear.org 14:29:47 ljames: i've just commited what i described, and new variables are *inspector-slots-default-grouping* and *inspector-slots-default-order* 14:29:48 CLISP and CCL probably start and load code faster 14:29:58 will be in the anynonymous CVS in 15 minutes 14:30:19 ... Trying this with clisp 14:30:25 and see the docstrings of these variables for details 14:31:35 complaining SBCL starts too slow to use for scripting is kinda like complaining that a Cray takes so long to boot that it's impractical to use as a tip calculator 14:32:06 yeah.. 14:32:13 sbcl starts really fast 14:32:20 a bolix 3600 takes about 20 minutes to boot too 14:32:24 It just takes forever to (require) things 14:32:37 somedudgeadfasdf: so dump core 14:32:43 ... 14:33:18 playing with cores isn't worthwhile for this sort of thing 14:33:26 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 14:33:55 not much playing to do 14:34:43 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:51 sure there is, first, you have to build one, and remember to rebuild it every time you edit the script, and set up whatever machinery to make multiple scripts in one core work (unless buildapp happens to automate that case) 14:34:53 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 14:34:56 doh, flyspell always silently refuses to work 14:35:14 and fools me into thinking that i type without typos 14:35:15 even then, it might involve writing a .asd file you didn't otherwise have to write 14:35:31 ..or some kind of build script. 14:35:33 What if you have ~100 scripts that you want to distrubute separately? 14:35:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:59 distribute? use perl. 14:36:10 somedudgeadfasdf: someone suggested load them all up, dump core, and make a wrapper that executes the right one 14:36:13 or, you know, CLISP or something. 14:36:32 or just use something else. 14:36:46 god clojure is a PITA to setup. 14:36:52 would (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :iterate) be fast with clisp? I can't get asdf-install to work for clisp. 14:37:16 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-69.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: jesus fucking christ] 14:38:33 somedudgeadfasdf, try ccl -- it has asdf already available, and loads code quickly 14:39:18 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 somedudgeadfasdf: load sbcl as a daemon, use swank for calls, and uhm... 14:40:20 i got a better idea: don't use iterate for scripts 14:41:18 Not using any libraries is pretty limiting. 14:41:20 (time (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :iterate)) => Real time: 0.432611 sec. 14:41:56 stassats: don't use cl for things that run for less than 10 seconds :) 14:42:20 ... or use clisp or ccl, which compile/load much faster than SBCL 14:42:22 i use gauche scheme for such things 14:42:46 *Adlai* thinks hefner's analogy to a Cray was good 14:43:02 @stassats Interesting, maybe I'll try that. 14:43:23 I've been using TCL for this stuff, but it would be nice to use lisp. 14:43:49 somedudgeadfasdf: try guile, gnu scheme, or scm as well 14:44:01 gauche has plenty of modules and they load fast 14:44:18 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:44:19 i just use emacs for the 10 second things.. 14:44:34 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:21 I'm writing a simple c-compiler, so it's nontrivial code but needs to run in a short amount of time. 14:46:15 I guess an image would be fine for that. 14:46:55 somedudgeadfasdf: any reason why you can't start sbcl, and do things from there? 14:47:04 eh? 14:47:37 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-36-96.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:23 I code with slime, so it's not a problem, but if I want non-lisp people to use it it will be. 14:48:46 why would i want to use a toy c compiler when i can use gcc? 14:49:29 You wouldn't 14:50:03 Anyway, I've got to go; thanks for the help. 14:50:16 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-139-187.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:50:19 -!- somedudgeadfasdf [~user@67-61-202-237.cpe.cableone.net] has left #lisp 14:50:25 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:43 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:50:43 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 14:50:43 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:53:49 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.42] has joined #lisp 14:54:11 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:55:42 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:56:01 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 14:59:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:02:08 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:12 G'morning all. 15:02:23 Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:56 carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.143] has joined #lisp 15:10:39 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:11:43 hey nyef 15:17:17 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:18:03 Hrm. 15:19:09 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:20 minion: Any the worse for wear? 15:19:20 wear: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 15:19:24 Heh. 15:19:28 Guess not. 15:20:07 Ooh. Even has the same fd. 15:20:23 And I think I'm done messing for now. 15:20:38 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:38 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:29:14 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:29:35 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:56 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:32:59 ruepel0r [~rue@g228083117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:40 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:36:59 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:37:19 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:37:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 15:37:57 ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has joined #lisp 15:40:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:40:53 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has joined #lisp 15:41:54 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-12111.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:01 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:23 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:50 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.42] has joined #lisp 15:49:29 How can i access packages in different files? 15:50:21 load them 15:51:55 The packages or the files? 15:52:11 what do you mean by "packages"? 15:52:30 Well the stuff defined with (defpackage ) 15:53:05 right, how do you imagine loading it without loading files? 15:53:41 You a (load "file.lisp") is sufficient? 15:53:45 s/you/so 15:54:09 sure, if that file contains the defpackage and everything else... 15:54:18 stassats: For some reason, I have this mental image of a forklift and some office furniture. 15:54:20 (load (compile-file "file.lisp")) might be better 15:54:47 slash_: are you trying to load some particular existing library, or some stuff you wrote, or ...? 15:55:05 Well stuff i wrote. 15:55:20 BUt it doesn't really work out. 15:56:12 well, go to http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and show us your complete files and we can tell you what you're missing 15:58:51 slash pasted "packages" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96054 15:59:01 tcr: I'd say combination-fun-source-name should return NIL if the fun isn't a ref. 15:59:44 Awww crap. 16:00:13 The comment should be before (defpackage xml2.instruction ... 16:00:34 slash_: you're not declaring the stuff in that file to be *in* that package 16:00:40 you need an in-package after your defpackage 16:01:08 every ordinary lisp file should start with (in-package :whatever-my-package) except when there's also a defpackage before it 16:01:13 Actuall this are two files 16:01:21 y 16:01:53 slash annotated #96054 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96054#1 16:01:56 defpackage says nothing about the contents of the rest of the file; it just declares a package to exist 16:02:19 also, your first-file will not work if compiled 16:02:28 because defpackage is compile-time but load is an ordinary function 16:02:56 so your :xml2c defpackage would actually happen BEFORE inst.lisp is loaded, and fail for lack of :xml2c.instruction 16:03:53 You should generally not mix loading stuff and ordinary code. put the defpackage :xml2c, and everything defining stuff in that package, in another file, and then have your 'initial' file just load both of them in the appropriate sequence...OR, use an asdf system declaration instead 16:04:28 Well i just wrote this are actually two files. 16:04:43 yes, I understand that. I'm saying you need three files :-) 16:05:05 Oh god. 16:05:12 OR 16:05:24 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:34 you could use eval-when to do all the load stuff before (defpackage :xml2c) 16:05:46 I can't even get that to work leave alone asdf. 16:05:47 but that's not particularly good style and inflexible 16:05:52 better to use asdf, it's simple: 16:06:11 (defsystem :xml2c :components ((:file "inst.lisp") (:file "xml2c.lisp"))) 16:06:32 The asdf call is there because i'm going to use s-xml and pppre 16:06:37 ppcre* 16:06:43 put that in xml2c.asd, put (defpackage :xml2c ...) in xml2c.lisp, and then just load your system. if you're in sbcl then you just (require :xml2c) to make it happen 16:06:53 yes, that is all the more reason to use asdf so you can declare your deps 16:06:59 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:07:05 (defsystem :xml2c :depends-on (:s-xml :cl-ppcre) :components ((:file "inst.lisp") (:file "xml2c.lisp"))) 16:07:05 Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:11 kpreid: :serial t? 16:07:16 Oops, yes. 16:07:23 Or :depends-on... 16:07:31 (defsystem :xml2c :depends-on (:s-xml :cl-ppcre) :serial t :components ((:file "inst.lisp") (:file "xml2c.lisp"))) 16:07:39 Where to place xml2c.asd? 16:07:43 next to your lisp files 16:07:48 Ok. 16:13:14 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:07 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:16:53 marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has joined #lisp 16:17:11 I still don't see how i can access the classes in inst.lisp from xml2c.lisp 16:17:12 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:17:39 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:12 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:18:39 slash_: accessibility has NOTHING to do with files and everything to do with packages 16:18:52 your :use :xml2c.instruction in the defpackage :xml2c means that they will be visible in the package xml2c 16:19:17 perhaps you forgot to put an (in-package :xml2c) in xml2c.lisp and/or an (in-package :xml2c.instruction) in inst.lisp 16:19:34 without that, your mentions of symbols are not actually in the packages you defined 16:19:39 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 But if i use in-package i cannot access stuff in cl-user anymore. 16:23:34 ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.79] has joined #lisp 16:23:48 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:20 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@g228083117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:54 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:26:07 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:27:42 There shouldn't be anything important in cl-user anyway. cl-user is more for random hacks than anything permanent. 16:29:41 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:41 Usually, when I start a new project, whatever the eventual estimated complexity, I start with a single file with a defpackage (:use :cl) and an in-package and go from there. 16:31:27 If I split things up into multiple files, I often put the defpackage into its own file, typically package.lisp, and add a .asd or similar to control the build order. 16:31:29 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:06 Hrm... There's probably a short article there, "patterns of lisp project growth" or something. 16:33:07 minion: xach-asdf 16:33:08 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 16:33:31 I too start with single file eval-when+require, defpackage, in-package 16:33:50 Require? Your projects start with -requirements-? 16:33:55 Neat. 16:34:11 Mine usually start with something I can hack on with just SBCL. 16:34:47 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.224.145] has joined #lisp 16:34:55 ;_; 16:35:07 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:35:12 Even with just sbcl, you may need some contrib 16:35:30 I usually don't, actually. And if I do it's usually brought in by SLIME anyway. 16:36:20 I often start with alexandria as a dependency and get later rid of it 16:36:29 Heh. 16:36:49 I've got some projects that I'm reasonably confident will grow a CLX dependency, but they haven't yet. 16:37:17 And one which has a CLX dependency, but is in an environment where I've put CLX into my core image. 16:37:29 So I don't need to pull it in. 16:38:32 I do wonder if compilation times got worse. C-c C-k on swank.lisp takes longer than I have in remembrance 16:39:19 with empty caches? 16:39:38 what caches? 16:40:04 fs 16:41:01 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.224.145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:28 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.224.145] has joined #lisp 16:42:37 though indeed, it's unexpectedly slow for me too 16:48:36 it's slow not only in sbcl, so i guess that's because it's quite large 16:48:41 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.224.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:51:40 Maybe it's not that compiles are slower, just that you're moving faster? 16:54:03 ljames: i've just commited what i described, and new variables are *inspector-slots-default-grouping* and *inspector-slots-default-order* <-- Awesome, though I just grabbed latest version from CVS and I don't see it there, am I looking in the wrong place? (cvs -d :pserver:anonymous:anonymous@common-lisp.net:/project/slime/cvsroot co slime) 16:55:47 that's it 16:56:25 oh nm, I untarred an older version, I see them now. Thanks! 17:03:25 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.132.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:04:52 -!- migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:05:54 -!- Guest80207 [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:50 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:08:14 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:23 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has left #lisp 17:11:39 weirdo [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has joined #lisp 17:11:49 -!- weirdo is now known as Guest39460 17:13:42 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-123-198.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.148] has left #lisp 17:23:43 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E4AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:29:27 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:46 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-098-201-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:31:24 -!- Algid [~dash@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:36:16 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-123-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:18 -!- Guest39460 [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:36:22 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-235.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:50 hno [~hno@183.159.216.81.static.tb.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:49 Fatalnix [1001@robots.utc.utc4.k12.me.us] has joined #lisp 17:46:58 Good morning, or whould I say afternoon 17:47:46 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 17:50:24 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:40 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 17:51:15 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 17:51:45 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:59 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-244-177.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:55:16 Does anyone happen to know what it would take to build object code linkable with gnu ld that would run on bare metal? I've been thinking off and on about it. 17:55:56 I want to use lisp for some drivers in my C project. 17:56:17 Use ECL. 17:56:27 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:45 I used that once, it does work, but does it generate linkable objects when there is no standard C library at all? I'm using -fno-builtin and such like that. 17:57:49 Fatalnix: for bare metal you'd need something to emulate POSIX environment (to a degree), like OSKit, then you could easily run ECL on that 17:57:51 just curious 17:58:10 I see. 17:58:13 Fatalnix: you'll have to emulate a lot of posix. 17:58:40 yeah, I only have some parts of stdlib in it as of current. 17:58:43 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:58:50 Or, you can use a small scheme or other scripting language implementation. 17:58:52 mostly just string manipulation functionality 18:01:49 itd be neat if gcc supported lisp implementations. 18:02:09 how do you propose that would wokr? 18:02:58 francogrex [~user@6.108-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:03:04 would be sort of difficult however to create, wouldnt it. It would probably have to have its own implementation of sorts and convert it to assembly in the way it needs. 18:03:47 Did you know that SBCL et al. actually produce machine code from your Lisp code? 18:03:58 it's not interpreted like a BASIC program. 18:04:01 yeah I know you can do that 18:04:12 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 but it probably generates code you don't want 18:04:41 Really? 18:04:46 in such a situation if you know what I mean 18:05:06 have you tried setting speed to 3 and disassembled a function? 18:05:14 or size to 3. 18:05:29 what will the change in size do? 18:05:42 (sorry, size doesn't exist I think.) 18:06:04 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 18:06:21 Fatalnix: ECL compiles Lisp to C and passes that to GCC 18:06:50 oh yeah 18:06:57 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:29 sorry, been a while since ive messed with ECL 18:07:49 daniel [~daniel@p5082ED05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:47 Well, thanks for the tips, I'll dive into this ECL manual a bit here and there to get some ideas. 18:11:07 it's probably not well-suited for driver or OS development. 18:11:49 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082D002.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:12:23 It may not be. 18:13:03 It's possible to use Lisp for that (see movitz or sbcl-os), but you'll be spending a lot of time and energy on issues not directly relevant to your course. 18:13:39 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:42 For this project, I don't intend on using it for more than just automated tasks though. Something to manage the relay boards on some robots at the tech school or something. 18:14:14 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:14:17 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-95-198.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:14:35 if you really want to use or even write a fairly dynamic language on a small system, a Forth might work better. 18:16:02 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:16:37 hmm 18:17:13 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:18:57 'morning 18:21:06 Morning 18:22:34 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:24:45 Alright. I'll look into some things, thanks for your help :) 18:24:48 -!- Fatalnix [1001@robots.utc.utc4.k12.me.us] has left #lisp 18:25:38 -!- ams [~ams@m83-185-65-142.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:28:10 -!- francogrex [~user@6.108-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:10 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:55 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:45 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:21 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:36:45 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:29 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:46:00 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:52:56 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 18:53:35 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:38 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483E4AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:55:46 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A968.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 18:59:03 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:59:31 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E4AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:45 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-235.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:46 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:02 rstandy` [~rastandy@net-93-144-215-63.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 19:17:49 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-223.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:18:21 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 19:19:03 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:29 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:07 -!- hno [~hno@183.159.216.81.static.tb.siw.siwnet.net] has left #lisp 19:43:42 twilightstar [~man@adsl-8-66-30.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 ams [~ams@m83-185-94-120.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:49:56 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.68.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:50:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:53:48 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:55:42 francogrex [~user@6.108-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:56:36 Hi in sbcl one can have this to get the environment variables (sb-unix::posix-getenv "HOME") but is there something to set them (like setenv ?) 19:56:53 setf 19:57:00 sb-unix isn't supposed to be used 19:57:03 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:57:18 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:57:21 oh right, sb-posix 19:57:25 there's a reason for the :: 19:57:27 use sb-posix:getenv and sb-posix:putenv 19:57:45 ok then 19:58:28 -!- Sergio`_ is now known as Sergio` 20:01:11 (sb-posix:putenv ) it says 20:01:11 or sb-posix:setenv 20:01:22 francogrex: it does indeed 20:03:39 works fine. thanks 20:04:13 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441771.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 20:04:23 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:12:39 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:45 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-198.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:34 -!- francogrex [~user@6.108-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:18:34 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:19:00 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:46 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:27:46 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66589f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:28:06 user__ [~user@90-225-124-179-no48.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:18 -!- user__ [~user@90-225-124-179-no48.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 20:32:39 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:51 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 20:35:16 -!- twilightstar [~man@adsl-8-66-30.mia.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 20:36:18 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:36:23 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66589f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 20:39:06 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-174-235.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:15 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:03 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-95-198.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:48:26 -!- rogue [rogue@unaffiliated/rogue] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:49:20 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:49:37 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-105.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:52:29 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:58 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:11 Hello all. 20:55:48 hey, nyef. 20:57:21 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-092-075-040-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:01 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:17 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-092-075-040-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:00:18 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:00:34 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 21:00:36 hello 21:00:41 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:54 bizarrefish: yo 21:04:05 bizarrefish: in uni at the moment? 21:05:06 p_l: nah, back home. will be in tomorrow morning 21:05:18 -!- deepfire is now known as _deepfire 21:05:27 hi everyone 21:05:28 Are there any GUI imlemented in lisp? 21:06:27 lots. 21:07:19 htk_: pure lisp solutions (libraries/toolkits): CLIM, Garnet. Commercial-only: various impl. specific ones. Bindings to GTK, TK, Motif, Qt, and lots more (including simply talking directly to X11 through CLX or writing your own FFI) 21:07:21 i'm looking functional GUI interfaces 21:07:25 for* 21:07:45 *bizarrefish* goes looking for the lisp gtk binding 21:08:34 htk_: ah well, then you shouldn't use lisp. lisp is crap after all. 21:09:01 *bizarrefish* throws a chair at ams 21:09:25 little sarcasm, and people get violent... 21:09:28 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:37 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:09:39 *bizarrefish* points at htk_. it was him. 21:09:45 bizarrefish: don't throw chairs, please. 21:09:46 htk: what's a functional GUI interface? 21:09:56 bizarrefish: Remember that I can reach you physically :) 21:09:59 yeah, throw cars instead... 21:10:07 perhaps he meant 'works as advertised' 21:10:08 ams: no, houses. 21:10:19 (so funny! did you see the lisp reference there? did you? DID YOU!) 21:10:26 p_l: not now ya can't :P and if you try anything tomorrow, i'll set DOMINATOR on ya. 21:11:31 *bizarrefish* throws a VF-0 at ams 21:11:48 ... 21:12:03 bizarrefish: btw, how are your advances with FPGA? 21:12:38 so violent... 21:12:57 hrmn 21:13:03 OT 21:13:15 p_l: haven't done much as of late, been to busy with lil sbc. i need to get virtualbox to export the host's USB ports to the guest, which it apparently doesn't want to do :-/ 21:13:26 Fade: trying to dissolve the fith :/ 21:13:29 *fight 21:13:58 bizarrefish: I'll try setting up the tools again tomorrow. BTW, do you finally have some time to read PCL? 21:14:04 ASau`` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:14:14 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:15:16 p_l: yup, have been reading it. i keep getting confused with the differences between symbols & unevaluated functions & names and the like. Really basic stuff. 21:15:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ef1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:28 rogue [rogue@unaffiliated/rogue] has joined #lisp 21:16:43 bizarrefish: I'd suggest playing around with (describe ) 21:16:51 at least on SBCL 21:17:15 htk: I guess you may be interested in the cells based toolkits, which try to take care of (some?) of the data flow 21:17:26 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:17:39 hmm, describe. didn't know about that 21:18:22 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 21:22:53 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:23:30 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:28:24 Blkt [~user@93-33-142-162.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 ps [~ps@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has joined #lisp 21:33:59 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:33 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:41 are there any well know curses or command line program implemented in lisp? 21:34:58 emacs 21:35:20 emacs is not a good example. 21:35:21 mogru [~mcarter@217.155.40.178] has joined #lisp 21:35:33 htk_: i think that will depend on what your definition of "well-known" is. 21:35:38 it is well known. and implemented in lisp. 21:35:50 htk_: i can't think of anything i would consider well-known that is implemented in lisp. 21:36:06 ams: it is implemented in C and extended with Emacs Lisp. 21:36:17 I saw an interesting "curses" style library and CL bindings for it lately 21:36:23 Xach: the majority of emacs is in lisp. 21:36:24 minion: cl-tcod 21:36:25 cl-tcod: Describe cl-tcod here Common lisp bindings for the Doryen Library (http://doryen.eptalys.net/libtcod/), a "free, fast, portable API for roguelike developers providing an advanced true color console, input, and lots of other utilities frequently used in roguelikes". http://www.cliki.net/cl-tcod 21:36:40 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 21:37:09 syamajala [~syamajala@c-76-119-52-223.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:19 macsyma is well known too.... 21:37:53 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:38:24 macsyma is a good example 21:38:29 so is emacs. 21:38:35 hi, can someone help me with configuring emacs+tramp+slime on windows to connect to a remote linux/sbcl+slime? (i have done all the configuration as described by a1k0n at http://a1k0n.net/blah/archives/2005/11/index.html#e2005-11-04T18_00_44.txt, and my emacs supports now dired and file open/write at the remote machne, but starting swank produces either Connecting to Swank on port 4005.. [2 times] 21:38:35 Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer 21:38:35 or 'Connection refused' 21:38:45 probobly better since most people don't know about macsyma 21:38:45 emacs is a bad example. the display and input is a C program. 21:38:58 Xach: oh, please, sbcl isn't implemented in lisp either then. 21:39:08 Xach: nor where the lisp machines, cause they used micro code and other fun stuff 21:39:26 ams: SBCL's compiler is implemented in Lisp. 21:39:34 Xach: so? it still uses C code. 21:39:44 *araujo* says "omg" , he is here 21:39:45 enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:10 and using curses, well, that is a requirement for C, since curses is a C library. 21:40:42 ams: Ok, I think reading the lisp source of emacs will not teach you very much about how to write a Lisp program that uses curses. 21:40:48 ams: For that reason, I think it is a bad example. 21:40:54 Xach: actually, it will. 21:41:16 ams: Which part would you suggest? 21:41:20 Xach: emacs. 21:42:11 I don't think that's a helpful suggestion. 21:42:20 neither is your question 21:43:31 postgresql was first written in lisp, hat-tip to drew c 21:43:47 but that is neither command line nor any longer written in lisp :) 21:44:15 any old versions of it out there? 21:44:26 Arelius [~user@64.174.9.113] has joined #lisp 21:44:56 With clos, what is the best way to set a slot to 0.0 if it's initialized with nil? 21:46:33 Arelius: you could do it in a shared-initialize method 21:46:40 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:47:17 ams, http://db.cs.berkeley.edu//papers/ERL-M90-34.pd explains why they decided against using lisp :( 21:47:33 c 21:47:35 meh 21:47:40 c|mell: 404 21:48:00 because of the duplicate slash 21:48:22 or not.. :/ 21:48:36 duplicate slashes are perfectly valid, and ignored. 21:48:38 sorry i pasted that terribly -- http://db.cs.berkeley.edu/papers/ERL-M90-34.pdf 21:48:53 thaks 21:50:13 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 21:50:31 i guess hefner's shuffletron is a modern example http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/software/shuffletron/ but that's mostly famous for being in lisp 21:50:37 i don't see where it says that it was written in lisp. 21:51:42 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:25 there are also all those roguelikes 21:54:27 stumpwm? 21:54:48 notreally well known either of those. 21:55:07 ams: they are quite well known here 21:55:48 if that is the criteria, then one could just mention ... M-x tetris 21:55:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:56:32 ams: I wouldn't call this `tetris' a curses or command line program 21:57:23 adeht: it uses emacs, which uses curses. 21:57:24 gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:57:55 ams: you realize emacs doesn't necessarily use curses, right? 21:58:13 and the usage of curses in any app based on emacs is only indirect. 21:58:53 a bit off the topic, but how is climacs doing? 21:58:54 adeht: uhm, yeah it does, curses is always linked in; you can't compile emacs with only X11/whatever support. 21:59:15 tic: well,so would the case be for any lisp program, seeing that curses is a C library 21:59:46 ams, isn- 21:59:58 ams, isn't the question whether you use the API directly or not? 22:00:19 tic: curses is painful, you don'twant to use its api :-) 22:00:43 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:12 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:40 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 22:08:43 so a program uses everything its operating system uses, which is everything linked in.. I doubt anyone here but you had that holistic notion of use in mind when the question was asked 22:09:11 -!- sdkmvx [martin@unaffiliated/sdkmvx] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:46 then again, you keep saying that curses is a C library yet give Emacs as an example of a Lisp program 22:10:04 -!- ams [~ams@m83-185-94-120.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:35 so I guess it's all a big blob that can be called anything that suits your mood 22:10:41 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 22:14:15 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:52 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:16:21 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:19:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8A64.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:21:05 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:18 also, I don't see any dependency on curses.. ncurses yes, but I'm not sure it's mandatory 22:24:48 I dount any system still ships curses instead of only ncurses 22:24:52 *doubt 22:26:42 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-142-162.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:27:51 you should generally use curses, unless you really need efficiency 22:28:34 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-9-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:34 Adlai: you mean ncurses instead of talking directly over termios/termcap? 22:30:54 ncurses is dangerous because it side-effects its arguments 22:31:46 corny joke is corny :( 22:32:27 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:39 -!- dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f7357c6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33:10 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:14 heh 22:35:03 well, libcurses.so is a symbolic link to libncurses.so these days 22:36:54 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:55 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:38:15 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 22:39:59 Shamiq [~Adium@adsl-68-78-131-154.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:06 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-181-198-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:14 -!- Shamiq [~Adium@adsl-68-78-131-154.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 22:40:35 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.85.172] has joined #lisp 22:43:42 kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 22:43:45 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:45:06 p_l: netbsd has curses in base, but ncurses available as a package 22:46:03 it's not exactly the very old curses anymore though, as it has various features ncurses supports like wide character support (and now uses terminfo instead of termcap since very recently) 22:50:25 -!- ps [~ps@194-158-251-71.static.adslpremium.ch] has quit [] 22:50:29 phadthai: then I wouldn't be surprised if both are actually ncurses, but the second one was somewhat incompatible with SysV :-) 22:51:30 it's really bsdcurses 22:52:58 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66589f-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 22:53:42 sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 22:54:33 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:09 -!- rogue is now known as Queen_Clarity 22:56:34 anton_v [~Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 22:56:50 -!- Queen_Clarity is now known as rogue 22:58:36 marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has joined #lisp 22:59:57 benny [~benny@i577A87D1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:26 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:01:14 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:06:20 -!- mogru [~mcarter@217.155.40.178] has left #lisp 23:06:59 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-36-96.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:57 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:19:58 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:21:20 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:23:20 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:24:30 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 23:26:31 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:27:49 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-36-96.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:55 are there any really simple ways to draw some graphics / plot graphs with lisp? 23:28:25 i've seen some turtle graphics and similar for scheme but haven't come across anything for CL yet 23:28:50 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:10 Xach has a couple libraries to generate gifs and pngs, using either raster or vector graphics. 23:30:56 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:57 well, i want to find (or write) something that would let you work on a live output 23:30:58 there are also SDL bindings and opengl bindings and "game engines" and such 23:31:12 yeah, i started off with lispbuilder-sdl actually 23:31:18 i played with cl-opengl a bit too 23:31:50 i could probably get what i'm looking for from either but they both seem much more sophisticated than my needs (initially anyway) 23:32:51 cl-2d looks interesting 23:33:08 with some simple lispbuilder-sdl hacking: (defun pixels-1 () (with-graphics () (frame-loop () (pset (random (screen-width)) (random (screen-height)) (random 256))))) 23:33:51 (yes, PSET, our ol' friend from BASIC) 23:34:02 :D 23:34:37 hack includes the default VGA palette and all 23:34:54 devslashnull [~james@dyn-190.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:36:11 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:36:11 -!- devslashnull [~james@dyn-190.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:18 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 23:36:37 adeht: i'm a bit confused 23:36:57 devslashnull [~james@dyn-190.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:37:04 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Client Quit] 23:37:36 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 23:38:01 derrida: what about? 23:39:34 what that lispbuilder function is / how it relates :D 23:40:27 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.16.117.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 23:41:25 these aren't lispbuilder operators, but my own.. but they are defined in terms of lispbuilder-sdl, and their definitions aren't complex 23:43:12 i just wasn't sure what you are trying to show me :) 23:43:21 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:56 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:39 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:05 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 23:48:25 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:49:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.219.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:50:29 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1C039.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:54:22 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:55:07 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp