00:00:05 the cxml xmls builder is fantastically convienent 00:01:14 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:19 are there other xml parsing libraries that have a lot of development in cl that I should look at? 00:01:47 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441771.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:03:32 mooglenorph: cxml was the winner for me 00:03:35 there are libraries on top of cxml 00:03:43 I can't remember what else I considered 00:04:04 such as cxml-stp and cl-xmlspam 00:04:15 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:04:17 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-196.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:42 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:05:04 pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has joined #lisp 00:05:33 adeht: oh, thanks... those look interesting 00:05:59 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-196.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:35 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.13] has quit [Quit: brb, home] 00:08:08 adeht: expecially cl-xmlspan, I spent some time using klacks on huge xml files and it wasn't too fun after a while 00:09:36 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:56 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:11:00 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:11:49 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:14:52 -!- konr [~user@201.82.136.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:01 -!- |Soulman| [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:23:52 -!- pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:24:12 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.169.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:54 pix4 [~pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 00:26:35 simonft [~simonft@dyn-160-39-29-98.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:26:46 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:05 Why does (format t "test") return NIL? 00:27:38 <_3b> because that is what the spec says it should? 00:28:26 _3b: Ok, thanks. I assumed that this was an error. 00:28:33 On my part, that is. 00:28:46 <_3b> what would you have preferred it to return? 00:29:31 <_3b> if you want to to create a string, (format nil ...) 00:30:24 _3b: I guess I can under stand why it would do that. 00:30:30 thanks for the help. 00:31:26 <_3b> there are also the PRINT variants which return the object being printed 00:34:53 -!- simonft [~simonft@dyn-160-39-29-98.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 00:37:35 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f726e94.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:48 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f725381.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38:21 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:29 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:32 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:32 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 00:43:37 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.81.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:45:30 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:46:25 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f663f36-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 00:47:02 upward [~upward@modemcable105.155-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:54:08 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 01:00:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 01:03:40 -!- dys` is now known as dys 01:08:45 Hm. The slime-inspector isn't showing full strings 01:09:11 I get ".. 01:09:29 and when I click on that, I get #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (160)) {1002E2757F}> at the top, and each character on a seperate line. 01:09:52 press p on the thing to pretty-print it 01:10:38 oh, cool 01:10:57 there's no way to get that to happen by default in the *Slime inspector* buffer? 01:11:26 perhaps you have to inpect the source code 01:11:38 mooglenorph: do you really want emacs to die because you tried to inspect a multi-megabyte string? 01:12:53 pkhuong: I assumed that *print-length* would keep that from happening? 01:13:56 it's unfortunately not specified to work on strings 01:14:23 Ah, okay. 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05:26:00 -!- rogue [rogue@unaffiliated/rogue] has left #lisp 05:26:03 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 05:26:14 it got to 40% memory usage and then just stopped using the CPU :-\ 05:27:00 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:31:32 brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:17 mooglenorph: why do you keep all the documents in memory before outputting them? 05:33:05 pkhuong: I don't think I'm keeping all documents in memory? unless you mean within an xml file 05:33:21 what's process-purestring? 05:33:23 pkhuong: in which case, no reason. laziness. I'll change that and see if it works, thanks. 05:33:54 pkhuong: I don't think that function is used anymore...no, it isn't 05:34:41 then you probably want to think of going with a SAX style approach, instead of representing all the document in-memory. 05:35:36 CXML supports SAX parsing natively (that's how it the builders work). You can build a list of whatever it is you're looking for directly that way. 05:37:24 Oh, well. I was hoping to avoid that, but I guess I don't really have a choice. 05:37:32 I'm having trouble using macros inside of cl-who. Are there any cavaets to doing this? I have (defmacro make-link (href body) `'(:a :href href body)). It looks like it returns what it should but when I use it inside of with-html-output it just outputs "" 05:37:55 brennanc: cl-who parses its body before further macro expansion. 05:38:23 I still want to try bumping up the available memory before I go that route though, do you know how I would do that with the ./clbuild slime invocation? I can't figure it out from the docs 05:38:58 mooglenorph: 32 or 64 bit build? 05:39:07 pkhuong: 64 bit 05:39:09 pkhuong: so how can I work around that? 05:40:13 brennanc: expand into a with-html-output. 05:40:56 mooglenorph: it's 8GB by default. 05:41:22 pkhuong: that's... weird. then why would it hang on 40% memory usage? 05:41:40 I have 4GB available 05:42:20 pkhuong: I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you explain? 05:44:02 . That's what HTM does, in the body of WITH-HTML-OUTPUT. 05:44:59 You'd (defmacro make-link (href &body body) `(htm (:a :href ,href ,@body))). 05:45:39 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48:04 mooglenorph: do you have to keep more than one document in the memory at a time? 05:48:08 mooglenorph: maybe the problem isn't memory consumption then. 05:48:13 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-54.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:48:44 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-54.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:48:54 pkhuong: it's trying to execute :a as a function when I do that. Even when it is wrapped inside w-h-o. 05:49:22 guaqua: the names in the code are somewhat misleading, "docs" corrosponds to only one xml file. but I could write out docs as I go along in doc-eater 05:49:47 (with-html-output-to-string (*standard-output* nil) (make-link "asafsfS" "zxcvvxz")) 05:51:12 nostoi [~nostoi@95.121.138.66] has joined #lisp 05:52:13 -!- saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 05:52:28 Surrador [~Surrador@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 05:52:30 bah. HTM isn't defined via a macrolet. 05:52:39 I'd use a function then. 05:52:56 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-156-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:55:26 But you don't know what body to expect. so (defmacro make-link (stream href &body body) `(with-html-output (,(gensym) ,stream) (:a :href ,href ,@body))) then. 05:56:30 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]] 05:56:35 body is just one param not multiple the way I'm trying to do it 05:57:51 I'm tempted to do (w-h-o ,(make-link)) but it won't let me use the comma there 05:57:57 it seems like that is what is needed 05:58:59 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@95.121.138.66] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:05:19 mega1 [~quassel@53d8382e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:09:35 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:09:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:10:45 danlei` [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:56 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:10:59 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 06:11:30 how do you guys create abstractions with cl-who? For example, if I wanted to do (with-html-output-to-string (*standard-output* nil) (display-picklist)) and have display-picklist output something cl-who can use? 06:12:33 I can do every w-h-o separately but then I couldn't do something like (admin-pane (display-picklist)) 06:13:51 via STR, most likely. 06:14:25 but then I'd have to write the HTML manually inside a string right? 06:15:22 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:15:28 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:15:45 wrong. 06:17:18 if I do (str (my-html-component)) and my-html-component returns (:p "blah") it will actually print (:p "blah") instead of "

blah

" 06:17:44 that's where with-html-output-to-string comes into play. 06:17:53 here is a screenshot of my errer code can anybody tell me what i need to change_ 06:17:56 ? 06:18:13 That, or pass the stream to the macro/function, like I wrote earlier. 06:18:31 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:42 http://bit.ly/agcNuy 06:18:44 here it is 06:18:56 What is causing that error message? 06:19:02 lisppaste: url 06:19:02 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 06:19:28 Why would you need a screenshot to debug common lisp code? 06:20:01 surrador pasted "Error message" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95910 06:20:16 here it is 06:20:57 because it also includes my original code 06:21:33 fuck off. 06:22:09 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:25:12 Washington, District of Columbia (USNS) - Gathered on the steps of the 06:25:13 Justice Department, gay niggers worldwide announced their most ambitious ploy 06:25:13 for political power to date, a boycott of all foods that make semen taste 06:25:13 awful. GNAA president timecop led the rally with a pink megaphone, shouting 06:25:15 over the noise of riot cops assembling in case the peaceful assembly turned 06:25:17 violent. 06:25:25 My friends," he lisped at the top of his lungs. "As America's - no, the 06:25:25 world's - foremost consumers of sperm and without a doubt its greatest enjoyers 06:25:25 and advocates, we plead - no, we demand - that these prostate poisons be 06:25:25 eliminated from the modern diet." Around him, a surging throng of foamy 06:25:27 devotees showed their approval with a shower of bodily fluids. 06:25:55 According to timecop, numerous studies prove that gay volunteers not only 06:25:55 found that tobacco left a lingering moldy taste in semen, but that such 06:25:55 commonplace items as coffee and multivitamin pills could make semen taste muddy 06:25:55 and like insecticide, respectively. "These are intolerant, I mean, intolerable 06:25:55 substances," timecop spluttered. 06:26:27 GNAA member DiKKy, on loan from NATO class dunce Norway, as if on cue dumped 06:26:27 a 55 gallon drum of whipped semen into the Justice Department's Martin Luther 06:26:27 King, Jr. meditative koi pond. As carp drowned in the sticky mucosal fluid, 06:26:27 DiKKy took the microphone from a timecop overcome by emotion at the sacrifice 06:26:27 of so much precious gay nigger seed. "Gummy bears make it taste like rubber 06:26:27 cement - no, that's not a pun. And salmon, of course," said DiKKy, "which makes 06:26:29 it taste oily. Oh, and here's a big no-no: asparagus. Yucky." 06:26:36 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus 06:26:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp 06:26:52 Surrador [~Surrador@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 06:26:57 Why was i kicked? 06:27:22 United Asparagus Growers President Ralph Gruntligel was interviewed by CBS' 06:27:23 "60 Minutes," which, in trying to downplay its recent scandal over forging 06:27:23 records to replace the lost forged records of a famous politician, has changed 06:27:23 focus to such cutting edge topics as sitting room makeovers and loose candle 06:27:23 wax. 06:27:38 "While we support every group who wishes to consume asparagus, and do not 06:27:39 discriminate on the basis of age, sex, race, gender, sexual orientation, 06:27:39 bondage role, condom use, ethnicity or major league baseball fan 06:27:39 identification," Gruntligel said from a leather sofa in his Greenwich Village 06:27:39 headquarters, "to indict a source of income for roughly one in 65,536 Americans 06:27:41 that is ranked fifty-fourth among the world's most valuable vegetables, is not 06:27:43 only a crime against asparagus, but a terrorist action against one of nature's 06:27:45 most perfect foods and an important source of revenue for government and 06:27:46 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp 06:28:01 Surrador [~Surrador@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 06:28:03 Back at the rally, timecop sniffed in response. "Like his ugly fat bitch of 06:28:03 a wife will ever give him this kind of head," he said, demonstrating on Morgan 06:28:03 Freeman, who happened to be passing on his way to testify before a Senate 06:28:04 committee on racial discrimination in the color of fingernail clippers. "Desist 06:28:06 -- cease, I say!" began Freeman, but then, in his characteristic basso 06:28:08 profundo, began moaning rhythmically to the motion of gay nigger tongues. 06:28:09 -!- slyrus has set mode +b Surrador!*@* 06:28:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp 06:29:00 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 06:30:26 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:37:33 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@user-0cevc8k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 06:38:06 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:38:53 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:40:25 LaCagalera [~quassel@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 06:40:32 Contacted via phone, Robert Liebovitz, lead counsel for the Association of 06:40:32 Confection Producers, said, "Can I get AIDS from this?" 06:40:33 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:40:47 -!- slyrus has set mode +b LaCagalera!*@* 06:40:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp 06:40:59 slyrus: ban the host. 06:41:16 my irc client isn't telling me the host 06:41:28 201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx 06:41:32 thanks 06:42:04 -!- slyrus has set mode +b *!*@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx 06:42:18 -!- slyrus has set mode -b LaCagalera!*@* 06:42:26 -!- slyrus has set mode -b Surrador!*@* 06:43:04 hmm... chatzilla used to tell me the host. wonder what happened. 06:43:48 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d8382e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 06:44:14 mega1 [~quassel@53d8382e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:44:51 -!- slyrus has set mode -o slyrus 06:45:53 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:46:18 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:23 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 06:49:18 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-76-237.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:51:46 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d8382e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:53:15 konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has joined #lisp 06:54:18 -!- konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:59 konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has joined #lisp 06:58:41 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:58:49 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 06:59:00 -!- hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Quit: hybrid_mind] 06:59:42 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:26 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:23 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 07:05:01 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:45 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:06:35 I'm probably just brainfarting here, but I can't figure out how to resolve mutually inclusive variable references within a scope: http://paste.lisp.org/display/95911 07:07:14 Phoodus: use labels. 07:07:23 these aren't functions 07:07:35 or is there some way to hack it? 07:07:48 What's LAMBDA in your Common Lisp? 07:08:16 a and b are not functions, they're variables holding a lambda 07:08:47 And yet, I'm sure you manage to use the FUNCTION (#') operator every day. 07:08:50 HG` [~HG@xdsleg241.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:08:54 and my APIs pass around lambdas 07:08:55 ah, duh 07:09:01 I knew it was just a brainfart ;) 07:09:32 Otherwise, the simplest way to implement something like letrec is let + setf. 07:10:54 so (labels ((a () (... #'b)) (b () (.. #'a))) 07:11:59 astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 07:13:24 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-29-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:13:29 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:26 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-54.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:17:08 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 07:20:04 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.114] has joined #lisp 07:20:54 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:11 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:19 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 07:25:32 mae_tae [~7960fb0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-pvwyvloeccrdbzpz] has joined #lisp 07:26:29 mae_tae_ [~7960fb0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-bcoqfmucnlqgygxv] has joined #lisp 07:26:58 hello people 07:27:03 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:27:24 anybody here where i can ask an opinion, just an opinion, just a sort of logic 07:30:10 -!- mae_tae [~7960fb0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-pvwyvloeccrdbzpz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:30:18 -!- astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:30:28 -!- mae_tae_ is now known as mae_tae 07:30:54 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:08 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:41:34 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:41:35 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:42:11 fiveop [~fiveop@g229243056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:11 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-48.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:42:14 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:13 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: work] 07:45:17 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-48.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:45:29 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:46:25 -!- konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:46:30 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 07:47:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:52:40 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:53:30 good morning 07:55:15 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:58:57 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 08:00:57 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:01:35 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:06:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:06:49 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:10:06 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:14 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 08:10:27 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:34 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:10:37 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-29-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:11:11 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-29-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:18:13 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:18:43 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:19:18 -!- mae_tae [~7960fb0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-bcoqfmucnlqgygxv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:19:53 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:20:18 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:22:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:23:49 mega1 [~quassel@pool-032e4.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:27:40 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:21 flip214 [~flip@office01.emerion.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:04 splittist [~513ef2ba@gateway/web/freenode/x-fclhtdbtabkutmam] has joined #lisp 08:31:07 morning 08:31:19 Hello. Is there something equivalent to DBIx::Class in CL, ie an object-relational mapper? 08:39:38 flip214, hu.dwim.perec is one 08:40:43 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-76-237.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:09 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:30 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:44:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:44:40 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229243056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 08:44:49 Thanks, I'll take a look 08:46:54 -!- flip214 [~flip@office01.emerion.com] has quit [Quit: "bye"] 08:48:12 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 08:51:54 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:52:45 antifuchs: you here? 08:53:17 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:21 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:54:17 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:27 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:55:47 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:56:36 plutonas [~plutonas@nomad50232.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 08:56:49 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:59:24 minion: memo for antifuchs: Could you take Watanabe's slime-devel posting about allegro 8.2 from Tuesday. Rpg reported the same issue, seems like allegro changed its source-location format slightly. 08:59:24 Remembered. I'll tell antifuchs when he/she/it next speaks. 09:01:49 benny` [~benny@i577A7212.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:57 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.214] has joined #lisp 09:06:09 -!- benny` is now known as benny 09:07:51 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:07:59 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:30 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:08:36 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 09:09:15 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 09:12:26 tcr, i've seen something on our server which only makes sense if a condition-wait inside a with-deadline didn't wake up... is that the bug you mentioned in Wien? 09:16:37 wierd... sb-impl::*deadline* is NIL in that thread 09:16:49 and i wish i had a working backtrace... :/ 09:16:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:08 *attila_lendvai* resorts to setting the name of the thread 09:17:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:17:14 -!- splittist [~513ef2ba@gateway/web/freenode/x-fclhtdbtabkutmam] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:17:37 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:19:18 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:20:09 attila_lendvai: Nope, condition-wait should work just fine within a deadline handler 09:20:32 *attila_lendvai* digs deeper then 09:20:37 my issue is about waking up a condition-var X in a deadline handler we came into while waiting on X 09:21:03 -!- easyE [RjyIVA5YF5@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:21:27 Is it a condition-wait on the same cvar? 09:22:44 it's in a timer loop, it goes to sleep until the next event. sleep is implemented with a with-deadline wrapping a condition-wait (external threads can also install new timer entries...) 09:23:27 that sounds like you use the deadline to unwind from condition-wait? 09:23:29 but sometimes yesterday a 5 sec timeout was stuck 09:23:37 yes 09:24:09 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-qikvbjrazndfsbjl] has joined #lisp 09:25:32 does the backtrace contain a call to GET-MUTEX? 09:25:36 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:42 could you paste it perhaps? 09:25:53 tcr, i think it's a race... sb-impl::*deadline* is NIL while sb-impl::*deadline-seconds* is a number. looking at the code i have no idea how that can happen... 09:26:06 tcr, backtrace is broken, it's another issue 09:26:12 *attila_lendvai* pastes 09:28:17 no that's expected, look at signal-deadline 09:28:31 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn141.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:21 easyE [NafeLgQYFX@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:30:52 tcr, well, i'm pretty sure the thread is waiting in the deadline-protected condition-wait, but i'm just adding the necessary debug notes. so, let's hope i'm wrong and it's stuck somewhere else i'll find the next time... (wish backtraces were not cut :/ ) 09:32:15 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:32:26 I have a mental block since vienna cannot concentrate deeply 09:32:49 what does the gdb backtrace say? 09:34:15 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fmdbeymuucwvvzqa] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:45 mega1, is thread 1 the initial thread in gdb? 09:34:46 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 09:34:58 no idea 09:35:17 attila pasted "with-deadline failed to signal" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95912 09:35:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:36:54 attila annotated #95912 "backtrace and special values" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95912#1 09:37:03 are you sure expires-in does not just get the very large value? 09:37:07 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cnxivjczvnfxrtey] has joined #lisp 09:37:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cnxivjczvnfxrtey] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:55 could you paste the dribble output too? 09:38:05 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcukvmhcckfzccyq] has joined #lisp 09:38:20 tcr, dribble output is not available, it's the live system 09:38:35 attila annotated #95912 "backtrace and special values" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95912#2 09:39:14 the deadline timeout value sounds real, i have a timer entry that flushed the logs every 5 seconds to the disk 09:39:25 *flushes 09:39:42 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-140.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:41:00 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:44 sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:42:26 expand with-lock-held-timer? 09:43:13 I wonder why futex_wait is called with sec=0, usec=0; sec=-1 would be the no timeout case 09:43:35 tcr, it's just a with-recursive-lock-held ((lock-of timer)) 09:44:04 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:44:53 hrm, maybe 0 is interpreted as a very short timeout which gets missed due to timer resolution? 09:45:20 would be silly, but it's the C crowd hunting for cycles while optimizing... :) 09:49:01 hola I get a nice compiler error 09:50:04 futex-wait with 0 for secs and usecs seems to be work 09:50:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:51:33 how about tracing signal-deadline? 09:51:56 splittist [~513ef2ba@gateway/web/freenode/x-hthvhxzpayhmnczs] has joined #lisp 09:52:35 tcr, i can't reaproduce the problem, happens every few days 09:52:49 *attila_lendvai* is adding loads of debug info 09:53:51 tcr, futex_wait with 0 timeout returns immediately? 09:54:58 tcr annotated #95912 "futex-wait w/ secs=0, usecs=0" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95912#3 09:59:34 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:59:37 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:00:54 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:33 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:58 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 10:05:46 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:06:15 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:08:38 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:10:41 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:12 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-032e4.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:16:12 how do i get the volume control icon up? 10:25:23 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:27 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-96.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:29:38 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:31:50 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-45.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:31:58 tcr, this thread links to several futex issues... http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=675821 10:33:09 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:35 tcr, argh, this is apparently a kernel bug fixed around 2.6.19. our server runs 2.6.18.8 10:35:58 further details are at the bottom of this for example: http://bugs.mysql.com/bug.php?id=25232 10:37:08 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:45:41 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:46:01 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-96.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 10:49:15 stuff like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjdk-6/+bug/309407 10:49:18 all around in google 10:50:39 although it could be that most of them are just mere deadlocks... 10:50:56 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcukvmhcckfzccyq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:53:35 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:44 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:55:12 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-45.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55:22 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 10:55:50 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:08 soory the last message was for #ubuntu 10:56:10 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vgtztyudcaxoraxq] has joined #lisp 10:56:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:57:09 anyhow finally found a use fpr probe-file 10:57:24 for 10:58:09 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.136.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58:51 *Younder* made a elisp program that compares the use of the CL lib and sais what % I use. I am now up to 98% 10:59:25 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:59:41 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 10:59:50 it also list's what I haven't used 10:59:50 xinming [~hyy@218.73.137.46] has joined #lisp 11:00:26 handler-bind is next 11:04:01 the exception system scares me... 11:05:07 always had a feeling that I never really got it. Though i was the one who trumphed trough the chapter in PCL on exceptions 11:05:55 I didn't write it, I suggested that was something that people were having trouble with 11:06:45 and PCL by the way is the weakes to the FORMAT command. Particculary the powerfull Pretty Printer isn't covered at all 11:07:12 s/to/on/ 11:07:28 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-96.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:08:20 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:26 That hasn't seen a update in 20 years. And is still most inefficient for atomic values 11:08:38 hint developers 11:09:32 Ive taken performanse hits of 20 x because *print-pretty* was enabled 11:09:48 (the default in SBCL) 11:10:57 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has joined #lisp 11:11:04 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:43 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 11:25:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:29:40 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:29:41 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-48.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:56 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:08 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:33:30 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:25 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-140.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:35:55 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-45.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:38:19 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:38:33 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:27 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 11:40:37 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:40:42 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:42:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:43:30 anyone want proficciency.el ? 11:43:30 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:44:16 didn't think so 11:44:54 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:44:58 oh one c 11:46:05 byte-compile-file would help 11:46:40 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-48.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:47:46 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 11:49:42 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:49:48 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:25 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:00:22 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:02:03 "If it works, it's not AI" <= hell of a good read 12:04:40 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:07:57 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsleg241.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 12:08:45 ls 12:15:40 Axius [~fd@92.85.209.154] has joined #lisp 12:17:23 hedgehog [~hedgehog@70-36-142-135.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:24 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@nomad50232.netlogon.lu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:44 -!- pix4 [~pixel@copei.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:17:47 -!- hedgehog is now known as Guest56832 12:18:01 I'm using slime, but having trouble with "format t" 12:18:19 (format t "~A plus ~A equals ~A.~%" 2 3 (+ 2 3)) 12:18:30 that command only prints "nil", not the result of format 12:19:16 even easier, (format t "hello") also prints NIL 12:19:18 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-96.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:20:07 <_3b> Guest56832: maybe check *inferior-lisp* buffer? 12:21:08 maybe *standard-output* is fubar 12:22:21 ahh, ok-- I started emacs with the command "emacs -nw" which may have messed up standard-output 12:23:13 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:24:09 it should be fine for ncurses version 12:24:23 maybe you're using FORMAT in threading or something? 12:24:26 brb 12:24:28 -!- Guest30654 [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has left #lisp 12:24:52 weirdo [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has joined #lisp 12:24:55 Guest56832: what are you trying to accomplish? If you just want to see the results, (format nil ...) will return the string. If you want to output to the slime repl, I usually use *trace-io* (I think), but others will know better. 12:26:11 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-qikvbjrazndfsbjl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:36 thanks split-- that worked just fine 12:26:44 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 12:26:52 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:52 I'm just learning lisp and getting different outputs when I started the i/o section 12:27:12 <_3b> (format t ...) should be OK 12:28:50 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:30:40 -!- [df]_ is now known as df_aldur 12:30:44 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:30:54 Guest56832, make sure you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your slime config 12:32:38 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:44 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:00 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:33:50 just changed the config and restarted-- but no change in behavior. How do I make use of trace-io? 12:37:17 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-111-48.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: poof] 12:43:51 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:19 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 12:48:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:26 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-29-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:50:53 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:49 -!- Guest56832 [~hedgehog@70-36-142-135.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:06:25 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:19 G'morning all. 13:08:25 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 13:08:25 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:09:06 good morning nyef 13:09:37 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has joined #lisp 13:10:15 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:16:35 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:17:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 13:24:09 -!- Younder [~jthing@75.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:22 zmila [~chatzilla@86.57.255.94] has joined #lisp 13:25:53 -!- zmila [~chatzilla@86.57.255.94] has left #lisp 13:25:55 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 13:27:13 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:30:41 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:30:54 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.90] has joined #lisp 13:31:25 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:31:35 Younder [~jthing@75.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:31:47 hi all 13:32:15 just fixed a snort problem 13:34:16 why is there 0 ops? 13:34:41 WTF is krystof? 13:35:10 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 13:36:15 the arrogant brit who usually runs the scene 13:37:11 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 13:37:31 leaving us with no OPis seriosly uncool 13:37:54 ops are afoot 13:38:07 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:39:36 *attila_lendvai* expects an upcoming kick if the noise doesn't lower... 13:40:23 attila_lendvai, you first have to have noise. 13:40:27 hello all :) 13:40:37 attila_lendvai, this is SLOW 13:41:01 spradnyesh, hi 13:41:11 *attila_lendvai* had the fist entry in his ignore list 13:41:56 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DF8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:45 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:47:37 who's being noisy, younder? 13:47:43 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:43 *cmm* has to guess :) 13:50:04 pix4 [~pixel@dslb-092-073-168-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:08 wery silent here.. 13:50:15 gmornin' 13:50:37 does anyone have any experience using cl-memcached with sbcl? 13:50:55 I read in http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2009-09/lisp-2009.09.22.txt about fusss saying that it needs to be ported to sbcl 13:51:13 I'm currently trying to use cl-memcached with sbcl and am having trouble 13:51:25 plutonas [~plutonas@nomad50127.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 13:51:42 # is not a character output stream. (the same issue that fusss talks about in the above the above link) 13:52:56 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:53:14 -!- Axius [~fd@92.85.209.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:54:15 hello 13:54:45 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:51 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:56:33 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:56:37 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:35 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:57:52 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:25 wedgeV [~wedge@user-0cevc8k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:33 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 14:05:17 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:36 hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has joined #lisp 14:09:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:10:33 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has joined #lisp 14:10:56 jmbr [~jmbr@48.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:13:48 ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:10 -!- ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:14:37 LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 14:15:22 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-149-236.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:16:12 ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:39 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:44 -!- ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:54 spradnyesh: it's fairly straightforward to make it work, but i don't think anybody is doing that work. 14:18:06 danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:31 Xach: can you kindly give me some hints? 14:20:10 spradnyesh: If I were working on a project like that, I would convert the character parts of the protocol to octets on the Lisp side and work exclusively with (unsigned-byte 8) streams. 14:20:43 spradnyesh: another option is "bivalent" streams that work with characters and octets simultaneously, which is what i think cl-memcached is designed for in the first place. 14:21:02 so you could do the former, or figure out how to get the latter in sbcl 14:22:12 Xach: I'm sorry but I'm not that much familiar with lisp. I did not understand half of what you said. But that's a start atleast. I'll study the things you said and go on from there 14:22:15 thanks a lot :) 14:22:55 <_3b> open with :element-type :default for bivalent streams in sbcl i think 14:23:49 spradnyesh: you might be able to rent a lisp hacker to understand it on your behalf 14:24:33 they are cheap and plentiful, compared to other things like ocelot trainers and pogo-stick customizers 14:25:30 it's not hard to get free-jazzers into punk bands. 14:25:48 the problem is getting them *out* 14:26:25 -!- LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:28:37 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:29:05 danlei` [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:05 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:18 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:29:21 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 14:31:05 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:31:09 muahaha, rentacoder.com is still up 14:31:22 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-45.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:03 mathrick pasted "Can I get that with the pretty printer?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95921 14:33:41 anyone with FORMAT / pretty printer-fu enough to help me with that? 14:33:43 yes, something with pretty-printer and logical blocks 14:33:48 look at how restarts are printed in sbcl 14:34:00 Xof: where'd that be? 14:34:42 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:35:20 *mathrick* doesn't know how to ask SBCL to show the source file for printing restarts 14:35:55 grep? 14:35:57 mathrick, what you are doing is done (including the indenting i think) in command-line-arguments (fare and ITA stuff) 14:36:25 attila_lendvai: well, I'm using unix-options, for better or worse 14:36:27 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:36:28 using and hacking on 14:36:44 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has joined #lisp 14:37:01 at this point it's easier for me to add that than to rewrite it to use something else 14:37:30 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:37:51 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:46 danlei` [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:59 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn141.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 14:39:59 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:40:01 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 14:42:51 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:38 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@user-0cevc8k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 14:44:54 wedgeV [~wedge@user-0cevc8k.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@user-0cevc8k.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:46:42 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.185] has joined #lisp 14:46:58 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@48.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:49:35 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-22-113.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:50:04 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:35 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:55:56 wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-208-125-2-62.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 Xof: okay, so I found it, but I have honestly no idea what I should be looking at or even how to make SBCL print restarts in the way I wanted 14:58:12 if I just specify a long report string, it does nothing and simply wraps it around to the first column 14:58:56 djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 15:03:06 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 15:04:54 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-237-1.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:38 -!- Guest80325 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:08:33 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has joined #lisp 15:09:01 -!- xristos is now known as Guest39369 15:09:47 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 15:10:38 fiveop [~fiveop@g229243056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:37 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:09 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:41 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-208-125-2-62.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 15:18:52 rrice [~rrice@99.164.42.2] has joined #lisp 15:20:08 konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has joined #lisp 15:23:15 Axius [~fd@109.97.62.33] has joined #lisp 15:23:39 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:40 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ->home] 15:29:56 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:33:57 -!- guaqua [gua@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:45 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vgtztyudcaxoraxq] has left #lisp 15:35:25 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 15:37:53 any cool software for live DJ mixing out there? preferably written in lisp, of course :p 15:39:39 HG` [~HG@xdslar193.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:42 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:39:43 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:40:20 guaqua [gua@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 15:41:04 ephcon [~ephcon@student165-125.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:42:15 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:54 .oO( ok, that predicate returns NIL ) 15:45:29 .oO( How do you mix a live DJ? ) 15:45:56 you cut him into pieces and put him in a blender 15:45:58 how about that scheme repl w/ graphics and sound builtin? 15:46:07 pix4: dunno about lisp, but I heard about something called mixxx recently 15:46:13 isn't blender for 3d? 15:46:25 tic: Some sort of scheme-based livecoding environment? 15:46:30 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 15:46:31 nyef, yeah. 15:46:50 tic: that'd be a real show-off with a beamer in place :D 15:46:59 They had some wierd name for a loop which was a one-shot timer hook that rescheduled itself, didn't they? 15:47:14 no idea, I've only built & run it. 15:47:16 Xof: okay, so I found out how to do it, but is there a way to make it break lines automatically? 15:47:26 Fluxus. 15:47:31 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:47:33 df_aldur: nice. Ill try that one. 15:47:37 as far as I can see from reading the pretty printer spec, it doesn't really support line breaking 15:49:01 my 35th birtday approaches and Im going to piss a whole bar off with my musical preferences *G* 15:49:11 I thought miser-width was the solution, but I was wrong 15:49:17 pix4: Are you going to hire the group "Common Lisp"? 15:49:38 Xach: I sure would 15:50:24 I'll be 41 in three days 15:50:44 will have a drink to that 15:50:58 heh, I already have 15:51:04 lol 15:52:01 what's up with miser-width any way? it seems to break @ ~50 chars no matter what 15:52:11 mathrick: ~@<~:@> 15:52:15 in SBCL any way 15:52:33 mathrick: that's not supported directly by the pretty-printer, and may not in fact do what you want 15:52:50 tcr: okay, lemme re-read the section on ~<~:> 15:53:11 tcr: what I'd like is to have it break the line when it reaches the terminal's width 15:53:14 I.e. you can't fill-paragraph a string specified at run-time (iirc) 15:53:34 but you can fill-paragraph the content of a format string given to format 15:53:42 I will buy a copy of any Code Quarterly that contains a simple but deep explanation of the pretty printer. 15:54:07 tcr: æh, the latter lost me 15:54:25 danlei` [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:38 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:54:41 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 15:54:44 I always wanted to read Waters paper but haven't so far. I think CL's pretty-printer is too complicated but at the same time too powerless 15:55:05 even if you could break at the terminal width, it would still be wonkey. I think a real solution would have to look at the semantics of the lambda list and break accordingly. 15:55:12 splittist: the CLHS explanation is not *totally* terrible, but it's just such a vast topic that's so rarely used there's no way to have it stick 15:55:15 Xach: btw an off-topic a day keeps the doctor away 15:55:29 *attila_lendvai* misses nikodemus from #lisp 15:55:34 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:55:48 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:55:53 mathrick: The CLHS descriptions make only sense mostly when you're somewhat familiar with the pretty-printer 15:55:54 bytecolor: but what I'm printing is not lambda lists 15:56:04 mathrick: yeah - I've read it, but, as you say, it just doesn't stick ): 15:56:05 attila_lendvai: regarding alex.? 15:56:11 tcr: you can do it if you try hard enough. I'm the best example :) 15:56:18 mathrick: You're trying to print a natural language text string? 15:56:19 Me too :-P 15:56:25 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:26 tcr, no, regarding this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/511072 15:56:28 mathrick: well I was thinking; any args list to any given function 15:56:29 And have it line-break correctly? 15:56:35 tcr: and btw, Waters's paper is included verbatim in CLHS, you wouldn't gain anything 15:56:39 (I have read it before) 15:57:07 nyef: nope, I'm trying to print usage summary for a commandline parsing macro 15:57:18 Ah, okay. 15:57:26 mathrick: I think there are two, one describing a previous printer? 15:57:28 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslar193.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:57:41 one trick is to split your run-time string at spaces (for example) 15:57:47 tcr: CL pretty-printer == s/pretty-print/pprint/ 15:57:49 There are a couple of papers by Waters about the pretty printer. There's a nice one that shows how to pretty print s-expressions that represent Pascal programs in Pascal syntax ... nicely formatted of course. 15:57:55 and then print it with ~@<~{~A~^ ~}~:@> 15:58:01 tcr: otherwise they're exactly the same 15:58:13 Xof: I think I'll do that 15:58:30 mathrick: ah 15:58:31 someone with more sbcl hacking fu could finish that package-lock patch above... if it's the right path... 15:58:53 The kluggy way is (format nil (concatenate 'string "~@<" string "~@:>")), I guess 15:58:58 reb: yeah, that one is good. But it defers almost completely to the other one for explaining the concepts of logical blocks & friends 15:59:17 tcr: that's extremely lossy 15:59:53 lossy in what respect? 16:00:10 I wonder if looking @ gnu's optparse or getopt code would give any insight 16:00:11 tcr: ~<~@{ string ~:_~}~:> is better 16:00:23 pix4: http://spintown79.blogspot.com/2010/02/infuriatingly-balanced-review.html is what i mean. 16:00:34 sure if you want to depend on split-sequence 16:00:42 Isn't there a format command to take an argument and treat it as part of the format control string? 16:01:04 nyef: yes, the ~V modifier is one of them 16:01:08 ~v me thinks, for integers 16:01:08 ~? 16:01:39 nyef: There may be hidden caveats with nesting.. :-) 16:01:41 migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:50 bytecolor: or characters. 16:01:55 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:00 Xach: ah 16:02:22 oh man, this thing goes through some four or five levels of format string interpolation, including two levels of ~? 16:02:32 *mathrick* puts his FORMAT hat on 16:02:53 wouldn't you rather need a microscope? 16:03:41 Xach: wow! 16:05:30 tcr: (format nil "~?~:[~;,~]~?~A" " ~:[~;~:*~{-~C~^, ~}~]" (list so) (and so lo) "~6,1T~:[~;~:*~{--~A~^, ~}~]" (list lo) (parameter-string (third option-spec))) 16:05:40 I don't think a microscope would help here 16:05:46 attila_lendvai: Which symbol is your package lock bootstrap failing on, *ignored-package-locks*? 16:06:05 nyef, how can i know that? 16:06:16 print $1 at the LDB prompt. 16:06:27 LDB actually has some cool features buried under the mess. 16:06:47 nyef, ouch, i see a: *HANDLER-CLUSTERS* 16:06:56 Eek. 16:07:08 am i trying to use the condition system too early? 16:07:12 Yeah. 16:07:16 That's from HANDLER-BIND. 16:07:30 Well, HANDLER-CASE, but same thing. 16:07:37 tcr: lossy in that if you have a tilde in your string, you lose 16:07:41 too bad... then it's really beyond me 16:07:44 *mathrick* is sad there's no portable way to inspect installed handlers 16:08:03 Simplest thing is to have a shortcut path that doesn't do the handler junk if *handler-clusters* is not boundp. 16:08:28 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-151-196-110-190.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 *attila_lendvai* tries 16:09:23 And putting a comment in the code at that point to the effect of "if we're run before the condition system is initialized, don't set up a handler" or something. 16:10:16 do we have an equivalent of cdecl for format strings? 16:10:20 that'd be handy 16:10:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:11:25 I ran into this sort of problem with AVER, I think it was. There was a test to see if the package system were initialized beyond a certain point, which failed if the package system hadn't been initialized at all. 16:12:55 danlei` [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:06 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:13:09 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 16:13:58 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:14:06 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:55 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E8DD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757fe6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:09 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@nomad50127.netlogon.lu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:43 -!- Axius [~fd@109.97.62.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:24:04 <_3b> is there any way to tell clbuild not to update slime if i didn't explicitly tell it to? 16:24:29 <_3b> having to restart emacs when i don't notice it in the dependency list of something else i install is annoying :/ 16:25:41 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:02 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:26:17 there is a way to not restart emacs to reload slime 16:26:38 <_3b> did that ever get offically supported and reliable? 16:27:12 i never had any problems with it, but it's unofficial 16:28:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:28:40 <_3b> that would also have the disadvantage of having to remember how it works, since it doesn't happen too often :) 16:29:25 how does SBCL determine the default *print-right-margin*? It seems to be it just hardcodes 80 16:30:18 but other than that, it seems I have succeeded 16:30:45 tfb_ [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has joined #lisp 16:31:39 *pix4* bites the desk listening to http://commonlisp.bandcamp.com/track/polly-loves-the-rain-ft-joe-covenant 16:31:42 _3b: http://common-lisp.net/~sboukarev/reload-slime.el 16:32:01 _3b: it's as easy as M-x slime-reload, nothing to remember 16:32:39 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:32:46 mathrick: Ah! That's an easy one. src/code/fd-stream.lisp, function fd-stream-misc-routine, the case for :line-length. It returns the literal constant 80. 16:32:47 what's holding it from becoming a contrib? 16:33:00 nyef: awww 16:33:14 Now, you -can- do something about this. 16:33:36 nyef, thanks, i have a working patch now... https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/511072 16:33:38 cmm: it requires a different way of putting your configuration 16:33:40 The misc-routine is actually stored in a slot on the stream object, so you can wrap it with something useful. 16:34:02 about 6 years ago I wrote something which used TIOCWINSZ or whatever 16:34:03 it would be official if reloading slime wouldn't reset your configuration 16:34:10 Want a terminal I/O stream that respects SIGWINCH? You've got a bit of work to do, but you can do it. 16:34:18 attila_lendvai: You're welcome. 16:34:19 yeah, that 16:34:26 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:34:37 attila_lendvai: I'll let someone else commit it, though. :-P 16:34:43 stassats: you mean I'll have to reevaluate my slime settings after doing this? I see. 16:34:49 but I don't think emacs window resizes send SIGWINCH 16:35:03 nyef: ah, that's nice to know 16:35:15 nyef, well, i'm badly missing the bird's view on this, so... that's a good idea :) 16:35:26 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 16:35:36 attila_lendvai: And I know enough about the package system to know that I don't want to mess with the package system. 16:35:47 cmm: that's why you'd put it in setup-slime function, which would be called by M-x slime-reload 16:36:43 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:37:11 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:00 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:01 merl15 [~merl@188-22-27-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:42:08 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:42:18 milanj [~milan@77.46.219.10] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:43:41 -!- migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:44:55 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:53 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:46:27 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:23 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:50:55 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 16:53:01 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-215-106.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:26 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:13 -!- BrianRice [~briantric@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:57:45 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:57:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:57:49 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 16:57:56 migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:15 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:59:15 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:59:32 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:00:32 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:01:20 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:41 migge_ [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:00 migge__ [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:37 -!- migge [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:06:18 -!- migge_ [~marc@ip-95-223-247-31.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:11:20 -!- splittist [~513ef2ba@gateway/web/freenode/x-hthvhxzpayhmnczs] has quit [Quit: wind down] 17:11:26 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:13:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:20:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:22 -!- tfb_ [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:22:59 BrianRice [~briantric@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:48 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:27:38 Sternmull [~kringel@p57AAC37A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:36 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-184-166.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:29:31 spearalot [~spearalot@41.130.42.219] has joined #lisp 17:30:10 when gensyms are called a LOT, the number after #:G exceeds most-positive-fixnum 17:30:25 wouldn't it still be safe to have the number wrap within the positive fixnum range? 17:30:33 just an idle curiosity 17:30:37 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:30:45 seeing as gensyms are never eq anyway 17:31:08 clhs *g-c* 17:31:09 *GENSYM-COUNTER*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_gensym.htm 17:31:37 that only specifies it being non-negative 17:31:59 _integer_ 17:32:11 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 17:32:13 Phoodus: GENSYM is specified to increment *gensym-counter* 17:32:15 aren't fixnums a subtype of integer? 17:32:24 ok 17:32:37 integers are bigger than fixnums. gensym counters aren't limited to fixnums. 17:32:38 You can rebind it to any non-negative integer yourself. 17:33:01 <_3b> or just get bigger fixnums :p 17:33:15 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:33:30 why should you care, anyway? 17:34:05 the only reason I bring it up is that (gensym) becomes infinitesimally more expensive when it has to flip to bignums 17:34:17 like I said, just an idle curiosity 17:35:01 So let's agree to attack the problem when the number of gensyms approaches numbers in the neighborhood of ten decimal digits. 17:35:06 from reading the 2 CLHS pages, it doesn't seem to me to bar warpping around a fixnum, but that depends on the implications of what "increment" requires 17:35:26 Yes, it does, because it says "integer" not "fixnum". 17:35:32 How about a *gensym-counter* contest? 17:35:36 ok 17:35:42 I'm currently at 1001, funnily enough 17:35:44 Phoodus: increase: a process of becoming larger or longer or more numerous or more important 17:35:47 <_3b> so (make-symbol "") instead? 17:36:22 tcr: I'm at #:G547871838 17:36:23 (make-string 0)? 17:36:44 Phoodus: and you really want GENSYM and not MAKE-SYMBOL? 17:37:22 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:24 pkhuong: make-symbol might be a bit quicker, if the speed is an issue 17:39:00 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:39:14 _3b: yep. Throws out all human readibility, but when you're looking at a wall of tangled gensym->gensym bindings, it's not readable anyway :) 17:39:22 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:39:58 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:40:06 *Phoodus* makes a compile-time decision for using (make-symbol "") in non-debug mode 17:40:32 using for what? 17:40:46 instead of gensym for placeholders 17:41:00 just eq-able identity markers 17:41:03 547871838 placeholders? 17:41:08 yep 17:41:25 and you use symbols for that? 17:41:40 hmm, I guess I could use (cons nil nil) or something 17:41:55 but I really don't want them consp/listp 17:42:18 haven't tried using fixnums directly? 17:42:48 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:42:52 this is for identifying individual prolog variable binding identities 17:43:09 which I go through a LOT of 17:43:42 and distinguishing a variable from a number is important, and I'd like to avoid unnecessary boxing 17:44:13 like putting a number in a symbol name isn't boxing 17:44:43 right, but gensym exists and is easy :) (make-symbol "") would be one way to optimize it with keeping the types intact 17:45:04 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 17:45:23 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:32 (though yeah, symbols aren't the lightest-weight objects either) 17:46:06 sounds like you don't care for performance anyway 17:46:20 based on? 17:46:36 we're not basing our architecture on optimization 17:46:51 but injecting some here & there where it doesn't ripple out low-level details 17:47:41 however, we're hundreds of times faster than before purely from refactoring on adding features 17:49:02 *tcr* judges whether he likes (foo :key1 ':bar :key2 ':quux) over the non-quoted variant 17:49:18 programming is the only thing where you get farthest with an unfastened handbrake 17:49:53 s/un//# 17:49:58 tcr: i would not like to OPEN or WITH-OPEN-FILE written in that style 17:50:03 would not like to see, rather 17:50:16 I don't particularly either variants 17:50:19 +like 17:50:55 jmbr [~jmbr@48.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:51:56 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:52:23 oh, well this is moot then. I already removed gensyms in a prior version :-P 17:53:00 interesting stuff to think about regardless 17:53:51 fgtech^ [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 17:53:55 mooglenorph pasted "the reason" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95931 17:53:57 I found out why my code dies. 17:54:04 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 17:54:26 Which of those measures (listed in the error message) should I take? Ie, which one is a better bet for success? 17:55:13 HG` [~HG@xdslfi152.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:15 mooglenorph: Wrong question. The real question is "what's the opportunity cost for trying each of these"? 17:55:47 nyef: well. I could echo to a proc right now and in one line of shell code. I'll start by doing that and see if it still breaks then. 17:55:58 There you go then. 17:56:15 nyef: ...good call. is the number it gives reasonable? 17:56:20 No idea. 17:57:01 tcr: it almost makes one wish for (foo (:key1 :bar) (:key2 :quux)) on the caller end 17:58:08 obviously possible with macros, but you dont' get to use the builtin keyword facilities 17:58:19 ...keyword parameter facilities 17:59:39 nyef.. don't you ever boar with this crowd? 18:00:57 let's make some interesting stuff. I know AI. 18:01:09 you're a bad AI 18:02:07 or... I could juststay here with the rest and slander hoever happens to come by 18:02:08 You know AI? 18:02:24 mu 18:02:47 Phoodus, I've studied it for 20 years 18:03:44 I've studied it for almost as long, long enough to know really not to use the term as it's degenerate in meaning :) 18:03:45 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:49 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-99-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:00 my chatterbt will probaly win the tuing award this year. (The bad AI joke) 18:04:08 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 18:04:39 now if I could just lear to type without half the leters going mising. 18:04:46 it inserts random typos too? 18:04:58 stassats, yes 18:05:22 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:05:33 stassats, I'ts supposed to mimic a human. 18:05:51 so I can ask it to play a game with me? 18:06:06 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 so its just as fucked up am me. nothing is exactly right.. 18:06:24 weirdo [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has joined #lisp 18:06:35 Phoodus, sure 18:06:42 and it would actually play along? 18:06:52 -!- weirdo is now known as Guest13968 18:07:01 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-156-145.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:07:07 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082D983.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:09 Younder: you could apply your vast AI knowledge to correct your typos automatically 18:07:17 Phoodus, probaly not :) 18:07:23 TURING FAIL 18:07:24 :) 18:08:01 stassats, the lsp that did that was never a great sucess 18:08:05 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:13 hi peter 18:08:30 yottamonkey 18:09:02 I read something today which mentioned TLI/XTI; has anyone experience with that? How does the API compare with sockets? 18:09:02 *Xach* reads ccl logs 18:09:16 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfi152.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:09:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 18:09:20 Hey guys. 18:09:35 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*jthin@*.customer.cdi.no 18:09:39 oops. 18:09:50 poor Lars Rune. 18:09:54 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*jthin@*.customer.cdi.no 18:10:00 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*jthing@*.customer.cdi.no 18:10:09 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082E5C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:16 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 18:10:23 hmm.. 18:10:35 *tic* seems to be mixing up names. 18:12:09 -!- Younder [~jthing@75.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 18:13:55 -!- Guest13968 [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:31 weirdo_ [~sthalik@mail.takeda.tk] has joined #lisp 18:14:59 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student165-125.hampshire.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:19:03 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-151-196-110-190.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:10 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 18:23:39 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:28:18 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-55.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:56 Phoodus: if you want unique objects that are only used for their identity, you could also use an empty class or structure. 18:36:49 Axius [~fd@109.97.36.156] has joined #lisp 18:37:39 *austinh* is starting to doubt his move to rucksack 18:38:19 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-29-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 austinh: why? 18:48:09 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:57 Fade: I was hoping that it would permit me to ignore many of the persistence issues, as they'd be handled in the background through various "MOP magic" and so forth, but I'm not so sure that's the case. 18:51:30 There is a lot more special case interface and awareness of which objects are persistent than I was hoping for. 18:51:40 Evet [~Evet@unaffiliated/evet] has joined #lisp 18:51:50 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:59 what makes lisp still unique for 50+ years? 18:52:00 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:52:45 The parens, obviously! 18:52:55 damn, minion went away at the wrong moment 18:53:31 Evet: take a look at Features of Common Lisp: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 18:53:34 .oO(Homoiconicity) 18:53:42 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:54:24 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:55:13 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.67.101] has joined #lisp 18:55:28 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:55:32 austinh: ahh. 18:56:26 Evet: the 50years of history 18:56:37 tcr: Meh. Fortran has similar. 18:57:08 Well I read "unique" as in "strong" 18:57:32 parens and symbols are pretty much the only thing I can see that's common to all the "lisps" in the last 50ish years. Whether that's unique or not is another debate. 18:57:35 There's not much which makes CL unique, but the combination makes it strong 18:57:52 the combination of various features 18:57:57 nyef: true, but guy steele already did his thing /w lisp. fortan is still in process. ;) 18:59:01 Madsy [~madman@82.194.215.131] has joined #lisp 18:59:01 -!- Madsy [~madman@82.194.215.131] has quit [Changing host] 18:59:01 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 18:59:54 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 19:00:06 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 19:00:52 sorry, i ddidnt mean "what lisp has that others dont". im sure lisp has lots that other dont, but i want to learn, there must be something to make lisp special 19:01:31 Evet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity 19:02:10 http://norvig.com/paip-preface.html#whylisp 19:03:07 Fade: that's not unique as well 19:03:10 lisp can save a life. yours. 19:03:25 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-99-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:28 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:6356:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:03:44 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:05:06 prolog was bootstrapped on lisp... so perhaps it's just a sexually transmitted property of lisp. 19:05:22 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 Blkt [~user@93-33-135-217.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:05:45 so was Miranda! 19:06:00 athlon [~user@79-98-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:07 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:6356:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:19 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:07:07 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@41.130.42.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:07:58 hi 19:08:21 How to autocomplete lisp program in slime mode? 19:08:38 Fade: welcome to the lispophilia self-help group :p 19:08:46 heh 19:08:52 TAB in the REPL, M-TAB or M-C-i in the file 19:09:14 pix4: for smug lisp weenies? 19:09:51 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:6356:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:11:03 how to make it C-tab? I'am on win. 19:11:05 stassats: ermh... I'm not sure my English suffices for a correct answer.. :/ 19:12:09 athlon: global-set-key or similar, perhaps? 19:12:11 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has joined #lisp 19:12:15 athlon: You can make it on TAB, too 19:12:39 (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "C-") 'slime-complete-symbol) ;; for C-TAB 19:12:40 well, as far as it already got... maybe we should claim lisp is THE medicine for programmers with erectile sysfunction. ... I gotta go... 19:12:46 (define-key slime-mode-map [tab] 'slime-indent-and-complete-symbol) 19:12:50 for TAB 19:13:10 slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B70A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:32 wait... 19:15:38 i try it... 19:17:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-29-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:24 how to make new buffer (*scratches*) and not to save it? just make new buffer. Without filenames or other shit. Just like ctrl+n. 19:18:33 M-x slime-scratch 19:18:38 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has left #lisp 19:18:50 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-167-130.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:52 C-x b new-buffer-name RET 19:18:54 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-229.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:19:02 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:19:09 it's slime-mode scatch 19:19:09 Does anyone know a channel about networking, tcp/ip, routing, etc? 19:19:25 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:19:27 hmmm anyway to enable history, arrow commands in sbcl without third party support? 19:19:56 Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.94.166] has joined #lisp 19:19:58 wormwood: rlwrap 19:20:31 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:50 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:40 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:35 -!- savonarola [~savonarol@skript2.donet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:23:44 wormwood: use editor integration plugins :) 19:24:02 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:6356:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:04 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:6356:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:24:06 whether slime is actually third party is a matter for debate 19:25:18 Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.79.222] has joined #lisp 19:26:46 savonarola [~savonarol@skript2.donet.ru] has joined #lisp 19:28:35 -!- athlon [~user@79-98-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:20 -!- pix4 [~pixel@dslb-092-073-168-092.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: The best camouflage is the naked truth. No-one believes it.] 19:35:42 athlon [~user@79-98-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:44 s 19:35:52 Thanks 19:36:06 (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "C-") 'slime-complete-symbol) work fine! 19:38:08 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 19:38:22 How to autokill autocomlete buffer when i select variant? 19:38:28 -!- Axius [~fd@109.97.36.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:39:01 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:51 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 19:43:05 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 19:43:55 does anyone here use debian on amd64? Can you run gclcvs at all as non-root? 19:44:29 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 19:44:43 for whatever reason, I get SIGKILL right after execve 19:46:03 pdponze [~pierre@144.85.124.96] has joined #lisp 19:47:26 Fare: do you want me t otry? 19:48:10 please 19:48:36 Interestingly: /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /usr/lib/gcl-2.7.0-prof//unixport/saved_ansi_gcl ==> /usr/lib/gcl-2.7.0-prof//unixport/saved_ansi_gcl: error while loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/gcl-2.7.0-prof//unixport/saved_ansi_gcl: failed to map segment from shared object: Permission denied 19:53:25 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:30 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:01:48 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-184-166.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:45 -!- Skewb is now known as Skewb|afk 20:03:18 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:05:10 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:07:11 on linux, could remap_file_pages() help limit the number of VMAs needed to run SBCL with a large heap? 20:07:39 regarding the gclcvs bug, http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=572538 20:10:58 Fare: segregating boxed and unboxed pages would already help a lot, iiuc. 20:11:46 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:6356:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:29 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-237-1.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:21 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:14:26 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:6356:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 20:15:06 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:15:42 Fare: no, the reason SBCL needs so many VMAs is because of the GC page protection bits. 20:15:49 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:15:54 Fare: a different GC strategy would help, though. :) 20:17:12 juhk [~juhk@i59F797EA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:53 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:22:09 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 20:23:18 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:24:36 HG` [~HG@xdslfi152.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 I wonder if things would be better on OS X if we used mach semaphores directly. 20:25:25 As it is, we're layering over a compatiblity layer over semaphores. 20:25:37 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:26:16 wasn't the idea of lutexes that they be somewhat "portable" and also work on other BSDs? 20:26:17 -!- lithper2__ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:32 I learned about two awesome bugs in OSX yesterday: http://openradar.appspot.com/6851193 and http://openradar.appspot.com/7596169 20:26:46 (and why did Apple use Mach instead of FreeBSD directly?) 20:26:51 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:27:03 Fare: for more bugginess, clearly 20:27:11 Is there any way to get the current time with SBCL? 20:27:12 came with the package? 20:27:14 Fare: yeah. We could still build lutexes via mach semaphores. 20:27:33 <_3b> does slime have a key to run apropos on the symbol under point? 20:27:38 Snamich, http://l1sp.org/search/time is useful. 20:27:50 clhs g-u-t 20:27:51 GET-UNIVERSAL-TIME: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_un.htm 20:27:56 Thanks. 20:29:15 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:28 Fare: because they got the Mach+BSD|OSF-1 as a package deal 20:29:36 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DF8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:29:48 tic: hey, that's pretty cool 20:30:01 p_l: it's somewhat unclear what it actually buys them to have Mach underneath, still. 20:30:05 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has joined #lisp 20:30:17 Xach, heh, you should know. :-) 20:30:18 (other than a broken POSIX layer of course) 20:30:21 foom: OSX was bought as a whole system, not developed by Apple for them 20:30:33 p_l: that's not really true. 20:30:36 unicode [~user@95.214.78.142] has joined #lisp 20:30:53 foom: they then continued development and changed some critical parts plus made the UI similar to MacOS 20:30:54 I ran the original OSX alphas, it was nowhere near a whole system. 20:30:59 tic: i forgot about it a bit, and it is neat to see the glossary in there 20:31:14 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 20:31:19 Xach, also noticed the glossary -- added recently? useful! 20:31:23 foom: I've got an old one for SPARC, before it was bought by Apple :) 20:31:33 tic: yes, a few weeks ago 20:31:51 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has joined #lisp 20:31:51 that would be NeXT, which was a complete system, sure... 20:31:59 foom: OSX is basically NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP after modifications 20:32:28 big one was change from PS/DPS display system to one modeled after PDF 20:33:01 there have been so many big changes, to every layer of the system. 20:33:12 foom: another big change was IOKit 20:33:24 never said display was the only part ;-) 20:34:16 however, the basic architecture, except for IOKit, didn't change that much, at least not where I looked 20:34:37 -!- Skewb|afk is now known as Skewb 20:35:25 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-229.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:36:43 well, Wine seems to prefer mach semaphores. 20:36:58 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f663f36-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:41:47 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:39 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:56 nijm [~nick@94-195-227-153.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:45:31 I've just started reading the little schemer. Are all the code listings supposed to work? I'm trying them out as I go through, but I'm only on the first commandment and (car (x y z)) says z is an unbound variable 20:45:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:45:59 nijm, did you forget a quote? (the ' character) 20:46:02 nijm: you probably want #scheme. 20:46:12 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:46:31 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 20:46:38 what does the quote character actually do? 20:46:56 nijm: prevent evaluation. 20:47:01 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-116.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:47:23 So the listings in the book aren't supposed to be evaluated? 20:47:45 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:47:53 so (car foo) is a call to the function 'car' on the value of the variable 'foo', and '(car foo) is a list with two elements, the symbols CAR and FOO 20:48:40 nijm, I'm not familiar with The Little Schemer. as pkhuong pointed out, you'll probably find more people familiar with that book in #scheme -- this channel focuses on Common Lisp 20:49:13 ok, thanks anyways guys 20:49:34 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:51:23 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-237-1.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:26 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:56 Moin moin! 20:56:28 yay, my iptables trick for gracefully migrating new connections from a port to another without breaking existing connections seems to work! 20:56:28 gabnet [~gabnet@48.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:03 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757fe6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:07 gonzojive_ [~red@c-76-21-113-242.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:28 hello pbusser 20:58:35 hi beach 20:58:44 hey Fare 20:59:51 the low-level details were easy. Now for a plan for hot upgrade of db schema... 21:00:26 Does rucksack handle DB upgrade? 21:01:14 nijm: What was your question? 21:01:48 pbusser: don't worry, it was user error :-( 21:02:23 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 nijm: Ok. 21:05:25 is rucksack being maintained? 21:06:19 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 21:06:30 Can't you see what the latest change in the repository is? 21:06:33 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Client Quit] 21:06:42 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 21:06:46 -!- juhk [~juhk@i59F797EA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:07:06 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:06 konr` [~user@201.82.138.3] has joined #lisp 21:08:21 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:59 -!- konr [~user@201.82.138.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:09:35 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:10:12 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:10:35 I see 9 month old commits in the CVS 21:10:41 hello 21:11:06 juhk [~juhk@dslb-188-099-241-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:28 Fare: gcl works for me, as non-root 21:11:30 Is GTK is more powerfull than LTK? 21:11:41 Evet: on amd64 ? 21:11:47 what kernel? 21:11:47 Fare: yes 21:12:01 Evet: 26 21:12:28 Evet? lol 21:12:34 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.78.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:12:34 Fare: 2.6.26 21:12:35 :9 21:12:38 athlon: Strange question. Do you really want more powerful? 21:13:10 /sbin/sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr ? 21:13:44 Fare: 64k 21:13:49 strange. 21:13:51 Fare: Me too. 21:14:04 Evet: problems running CL implementation? 21:14:06 when I change this setting to 0, a user can run gclcvs 21:14:07 athlon: What is LTK? 21:14:11 but otherwise I can't 21:14:36 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:14:50 p_l: no, not my prooblem 21:15:19 pbusser: ltk is a lisp gui system built on Tk. 21:16:57 Evet, pbusser: can you play with this setting and see if it makes a difference for you? 21:17:55 Fare: no, really cant 21:18:04 Xach: I see. 21:18:05 athlon: I suspect that if you wanted really "powerful", you'd have to go for CLIM or Garnet, or just write your own. 21:18:49 CLIM is cool. The trick is to get a working free version of CLIM. :-P 21:18:52 athlon: GTK is GTK, there are various issues regarding FFI but it depends what binding you are using. LTK is quite stable, iirc 21:19:10 pbusser: well, in my experience, McCLIM works better than Allegro CLIM :P) 21:19:31 as in "it actually accepts input other than on buttons" 21:19:43 Evet: thanks a lot. 21:19:45 pbusser: define "working"! 21:19:52 p_l: I only have some experience with McCLIM. 21:19:53 otoh, I have a rather old version of Allegro CLIM 21:20:15 (ACL 5.0.1/Solaris) 21:20:28 beach: One which works as specified. There are still many rough edges in McCLIM. 21:20:31 Fare: youre welcome 21:20:32 _3b [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:03 pbusser: True, but given the big holes in the CLIM spec, pretty much every implementation must have some problems. 21:21:05 _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:52 beach: Except the official implementation I guess. 21:22:24 beach: I'm assuming that the people who wrote the documentation also wrote CLIM (and vice versa). 21:22:32 LTK seems nice 21:22:34 p_l: proprietary software never dies, because it can't be upgraded 21:22:35 pbusser: Doesn't mean they're in sync. 21:22:48 nyef: True. 21:23:04 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 21:23:08 "every line of documentation was once in sync with the code (modulo bugs)" 21:23:17 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 21:24:13 pbusser: I was shocked at how much stuff the spec has going on in a single thread associated to each port, and how little notion there was of error handling or fail-safes within that thread. 21:25:43 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 21:25:57 pbusser: Right, the implementation on the Lisp machine is probably pretty close to the specification. 21:26:01 nyef: So you think the spec should specify more threads and better error handling? 21:26:02 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@48.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:26:09 I don't know. 21:26:18 beach: wasn't it more like CLIM being built around Lisp Machine GUI? 21:26:30 But I get the distinct feeling that the safest way to use CLIM is to have a separate -port- per application. 21:26:36 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:26:54 nyef: you mean per application frame? 21:27:17 That probably depends on the application. 21:27:23 p_l: I don't know. But I am trying to tell pbusser that McCLIM is actually a pretty close implementation of the spec; better that some of the others in fact. 21:27:39 nyef: AFAIK CLIM reuses open ports. 21:28:01 pbusser: Doesn't stop your startup function from forcing it to create a fresh one. 21:28:20 nyef: True. 21:28:29 So, mach actually exports everything we need to use semaphores as condvars and mutexes. The only problem is that forking is really going to lose... 21:28:51 p_l: I am also trying to tell pbusser that McCLIM delivers very good value for money, and I use it for pretty much every Lisp GUI I write. 21:28:59 beach: yeah, I found current McCLIM to be rather well working, although some examples and application could use work. Climacs is my chief offender 21:28:59 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:29:05 BTW, CLIM exports *ports*, McCLIM doesn't. That is not described in the spec however. 21:29:08 I'm doing some research on how my company can switch from PHP to using Lisp/Hunchentoot. One of the things I'm trying to figure out is how to set up an architecture so that different people can work on different sites all from the same server. For instance, hunchentoot will be listening for multiple domains and we want to be able to have different developers modify the sites independently. Can this be done w/ hunchetoot? What actually gets deployed to 21:29:08 server? An executable, or can it detect changes in the file system and render a different site without restarting the server? 21:29:24 brennanc: why would you do that? 21:29:32 Scriptor [~tamreenkh@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:29:39 p_l: Sure, I can agree with that. 21:29:39 do what, which part? 21:29:44 beach: Do you use the CLX driver? 21:29:51 pbusser: Yes. 21:29:51 brennanc: it seems much more logical to have (at least) one process per site. 21:29:56 brennanc: separate Hunchentoot instances for each application. Don't use it for simple webpages, though 21:30:04 pbusser: it is called a "backend". 21:30:20 each instance must listen on a different port? 21:30:32 lisp ought to be enough for everything? 21:30:32 beach: Yes, I couldn't remember the proper word. Thank you for correcting me. 21:30:48 pbusser: Have you ever tried the GTK+ backend? 21:31:23 right now we have nginx proxying to firing off php, it looks for a folder with the domain name so we don't have to modify nginx configs for each site change 21:31:34 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:31:42 Evet: There are probably things for which Lisp isn't the best tool. 21:32:16 pbusser: what are these? 21:32:17 Evet: What a strange thing to say. Lisp is a general-purpose programming language that is more powerful than other languages like that. But that doesn't mean "everything". 21:32:29 brennac: Hunchentoot doesn't do that. But you can program it to do that. Hunchentoot is a library, not an executable. 21:32:44 Evet: You are very close to trolling here. 21:33:03 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 Evet: It isn't good for 8-bit microcontrollers for instance. 21:33:47 beach: i dont want this 21:33:50 Evet: If you have a personal favorite programming language that you like, I'll be happy to state that that particular language is more powerful than Lisp. 21:33:55 pbusser: what do web based companies typically do for running web sites? 21:34:17 -!- athlon [~user@79-98-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:20 brennanc: I guess that depends on the company. 21:34:22 beach: a Wonderful thing for Climacs (and probably most McCLIM apps) would be a generic error handler. Cause Climacs crashing because it got "Open File" with directory path is... stupid 21:34:52 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.79.222] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 21:35:11 p_l: Sure. 21:35:24 well, we have multiple departments and developers scattered across the globe. Each responsible for different sites (with some overlap). Just trying to figure out how to deploy something like that and how the workflow would work. 21:37:04 beach: im looking for a programming language for some purposes. 1- back-end web app/productivity 2- hobby/research 21:37:38 i've started to learn ASM, c++, python, asp.net, asp nowadays 21:38:10 i have been using php for months 21:38:16 brennanc: I don't have any experience with such an environment. If I would do something like that, I'd first see if I could use something like Core Server or dwim first. 21:38:42 brennanc: Hunchentoot is very flexible. I'm sure that you could set it up however you want. 21:39:24 brennanc: I've had it set up with my own system of nodes, where I could bring up nodes or take them down or even move them to other root urls and ports for testing. 21:39:58 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:40:58 Evet: lisp is an excellent language for hobby and research usage. I use lisp for as much of my research code as possible due to it being a low-effort language. For webapps... the situation is different, I feel. The more custom/novel your web app, the more you benefit from writing it in CL. 21:41:27 austinh: any recommendations on what areas to focus on learning? I'm new to lisp, I think I got the language down decently, it's more the "how do I do this in the real world" type questions I have. 21:41:52 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-116.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:42:12 brennanc: Have you looked at dwim or core server yet? 21:42:38 brennanc: Have you already read PCL? After that, I'd suggest spending a lot of time with the Hunchentoot documentation and experimenting. 21:43:06 Reading the source code helps too of course. 21:43:36 I've gone through PCL, a little bit of "A Gentle Introduction...", some On Lisp, and some Let over Lambda. 21:43:46 athlon [~user@79-98-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:49 hi 21:43:54 Is Let over Lambda a good book? 21:44:08 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-116.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:10 Where to get TAG-TABLE for php for emacs? 21:44:14 Any source code from Edi Weitz (Hunchentoot, cl-ppcre, etc.) is really good reference for "real world" examples. 21:44:27 *enthymene* seconds pbusser's question 21:44:30 pbusser: it has helped me to understand things at a much more fundamental level, especially the scoping rules 21:44:43 LoL is a good book, but I certainly wouldn't start out with it 21:44:44 mooglenorph: for my web app, im looking for performance. i heard orbitz.com is using lisp. what about its performance, speed, stability? 21:44:53 it teaches you how to use macros as well 21:45:16 Evet: actually, that would be http://itasoftware.com/ - it works very well 21:45:28 Evet: fsvo performance, speed, and stability. 21:45:41 Evet: those things have much more to do with what sort of code you write than what language you're writing it in. 21:46:12 Evet, that website is not powered by a lisp webserver 21:46:15 -!- Scriptor [~tamreenkh@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: Scriptor] 21:46:39 Adlai: the engine behind it is in Lisp, mostly 21:46:48 pbusser: Let over Lambda gets a lot of hate in here. 21:46:52 the search engine for flights is, though, and I'm sure Fare can (or maybe can't) tell you all about it. 21:47:16 sykopomp: is it worth the read though? 21:47:17 not "the", only one. 21:47:29 what don't people like about LoL 21:47:29 p_l, right, I was just talking about the webserver itself. 21:47:46 mooglenorph: I'd recommend other books before even considering LoL. 21:47:47 I've only gone through the 1st 1/4 of the book but so far so good. 21:47:49 sykopomp: I don't care to be politically correct. :-) 21:47:50 from Dan Weinreib's talk, I gather than the frontend is built in Java 21:47:56 ok, the one used by orbitz 21:48:11 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:31 Fare, is "RES" going to be all CL? 21:48:42 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:49:09 large parts are already in Java or Python, with small bits of C++, shell, perl 21:49:25 pbusser: you asked whether it's a good book. That's subjective. I can tell you that there are several people here that have expressed significant dislike of the book. I personally have not read it, nor know of a reason why it would be interesting to read. 21:50:08 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:50:14 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:18 Fare, ok (I seem to remember Dan Weinreib mentioning that parts of it were gonna be in lisp) 21:50:31 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 21:50:33 a big part is written in CL 21:51:03 ah, nice :) 21:51:31 over 600k lines of CL 21:51:36 and growing 21:51:39 (plus libraries) 21:51:40 jfc 21:51:45 *Adlai* blinks 21:51:53 that's a lot of lisp :| 21:52:03 sykopomp: Of course it is subjective. What I meant is that I don't care whether people like it or not. For me the important question is wether people learned something from reading the book. 21:52:32 you'll learn bad CL style from LoL. 21:52:35 <_3b> pbusser: there is also the question of whether what you learned was good or bad 21:52:43 tic: Hehe! 21:53:01 pbusser, I learned a few examples of macros that are "too powerful" 21:53:04 pbusser: bad CL style that ignores important facts about CL, so it comes off as kind of silly. 21:53:28 PCL, OOP-in-CL and PAIP are better choices. 21:53:33 specifically, I think his macro-defining macros for automatically inserting gensyms are Doing It Wrong 21:53:35 ^ 21:53:45 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:52 bah 21:53:52 LoL is full of cool hacks, but very bad software engineering. 21:53:56 *Adlai* didn't read much further; also, recommends those books that tic did. 21:54:09 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:54:15 could you suggest me a getting started resource? 21:54:24 Evet, http://l1sp.org/pcl 21:54:24 I already have PCL and PAIP. 21:54:25 http://gigamonkeys.com/book perhaps? 21:54:30 Fare: how many lisp hackers work on that huge core? 21:54:44 Adlai, tic: thanks 21:54:46 sykopomp, not enough! 21:54:54 pbusser, get OOP-in-CL and AMOP then, perhaps. Maybe OnLisp would be an interesting read? 21:54:59 there are never enough lisp hackers 21:55:13 sykopomp, dunno. At present, fewer than in the past. Maybe 30-50. 21:55:24 that's cause everytime someone greenspuns a Lisp feature, God kills a Lisp hacker. 21:55:36 tic: Oh, now I understand what OOP means. I have that and AMOP too. Although I haven't finished them. 21:55:37 Fare: that's a lot of people! 21:55:41 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:55:44 pbusser, Sonya. 21:55:51 tic: I'm amazed we have any left. 21:55:59 sykopomp, macros. 21:56:01 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-27-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:56:40 tic: I mean any lisp hackers left :) 21:56:52 sykopomp, that's because they haven't greenspunned macros yet. 21:57:01 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:14 tic: Shhht! Someone may hear you and start working on it. 21:57:17 -!- pdponze [~pierre@144.85.124.96] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:18 tic: macros are about as greenspunned as multiple dispatch. We have that, too. 21:57:48 sykopomp, how are macros greenspunned? what other language has a macro system like CL's? 21:57:49 once lisp has been double-greenspunned, will there still be lisp hackers? 21:58:11 Adlai: camlp4? some haskell and python preprocessors? 21:58:21 Adlai: I think there's a couple languages out there that have tried to add macros to non-sexp languages. Dylan had some research on this iirc. 21:58:24 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:58:25 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:58:31 Fare: Template Haskell, was it? 21:58:33 dylan macros are very limited. 21:58:50 sykopomp, possibly. 21:58:51 all you need in most cases 21:59:04 in most cases, you don't need macros. 21:59:10 or a programming language 21:59:24 All You Need is Java 21:59:30 Fare, camlp4 looks interesting, thanks for pointing that out 21:59:40 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:02 xtc ? OpenC++ ? OpenJava? 22:00:04 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:00:06 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:00:11 also Felix 22:00:27 OpenCxx is more concerned with MOPery than macros. 22:00:53 Is there any language, though, where writing macros is as simple as manipulating lists? 22:01:14 actually, I think Factor has macros like that? 22:01:16 <_3b> wouldn't really be 'greenspunning' if it is a language feature though, would it? 22:01:58 sykopomp: Manipulating lists is not really convenient, I'd guess most go into the pattern matching direction 22:02:00 tyruba ? 22:02:28 sykopomp, in C, writing macros is as simple as manipulating lists! 22:02:34 factor is a good language, but I found that it increases the number of things you have to keep in your head. Because you have to track what is where on the stack. 22:02:36 (but manipulating lists is horribly hard) 22:02:44 hehehe 22:02:47 if you are capable of that though, it allows to do a lot for very little code 22:02:52 <_3b> brennanc: write smaller functions :p 22:03:11 tcr: that's what syntax-case does, right? 22:03:14 looks like butt :\ 22:03:15 _3b: they were, it was still confusing. 22:03:22 same thing about macro-assembly... 22:04:13 sykopomp: In case you got real syntax, you also match on the type of thing, e.g. identifier vs. expression etc 22:04:15 brennanc: Factor is neat, but I had a similar experience. Probably because I haven't spent enough time in factor itself. 22:04:40 tcr: I don't want real syntax :<<<< 22:04:49 you'll tear my s-exps from my cold, dead hands. 22:05:07 That was the premise of the current discussion I thought 22:05:14 <_3b> sykopomp: still would be nice to match on the structure of the sexps sometimes though :) 22:05:14 A friend of mine claims that Rebol is so powerful that you don't need macros. 22:05:30 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:05:39 tcr: I thought we'd deviated into whether sexps are actually good for macro systems :P 22:05:43 pbusser: s/Rebol/my-favorite-non-Lisp/ 22:06:04 adeht: He is a Rebol fundamentalist yes. 22:06:06 sykopomp: it might have been a learning curve. It is after all a new programming paradigm. I gave it a few months but I still wasn't at a point where I could use it for anything "real world". Maybe I'll go back to it in the future but for right now I'm concentrating on learning Lisp and seeing if I can't get it working for what I need. 22:06:27 pbusser: I don't think macros add power. They add syntactic convenience, which make the code easier to deal with :) 22:06:39 if you're using macros for anything other than syntactic convenience, you're very likely doing it wrong. 22:06:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:07:00 you don't use macros for abstraction? 22:07:25 I try to write macros that are just a very thin syntactic layer over a function. 22:07:51 So you're macros because writing anonymous functions in CL is cumbersome? 22:07:55 +using 22:07:56 CLOS macros, and the condition system, are examples of slightly thicker syntactic layers 22:08:30 (the condition system could use a (portable) functional interface, though) 22:08:32 tcr: partly, but not entirely. 22:08:50 having lighterweight syntax for anonymous functions would certainly get rid of a ton of macros, imo. 22:08:58 in particular, most with-* macros. 22:09:01 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has joined #lisp 22:09:07 Hell, I think we could get rid of those even with the current lambda form :P 22:09:26 (incf Adlai), too. 22:09:35 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:44 merl15 [~merl@188-22-162-170.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:09:48 sykopomp, don't side-effect Adlai, that's not polite 22:09:55 CLOS is a pretty good example. So are forms like case/when/cond/etc 22:09:58 sykopomp: What are anonymous functions? 22:10:09 Fare, destructiv sykopomp iz destructiv 22:10:11 pbusser: (lambda ...) 22:10:17 Fare: Ah ok. 22:10:36 once you have that, you have most of the 'power' you might ever need for your language. 22:10:39 the rest is just abstraction. 22:10:49 tcr: it's not that lambda is cumbersome, but that sometimes the procedural interface is too cumbersome to use.. 22:11:07 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.247.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:08 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-151-196-110-190.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:15 When you have bits with values of 1 and 0, then you have everything you would ever need. Everything else is just abstraction. :-P 22:11:26 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-151-196-110-190.balt.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:11:31 Heh. I'm pretty happy with how my program is running after bumping up that weird procfile. 22:11:36 pbusser: lambda gets you a lot more than 1s and 0s 22:11:50 tcr: and of course there are those other macros that are quite hard to translate to some procedural interface 22:12:01 lambda IS cumbersome. 22:12:18 sykopomp: Enlightenment you mean? :-P 22:12:31 SBCL climbs to 70%ish memory usage, stalls for a bit, obviously does some kind of huge GC, drops down to 10% memory and starts doing what I want it to again, lather, rinse... amusing. 22:12:33 adeht, which macros are those? all CL macros by definition reduce to functions (or special forms) 22:13:02 s/reduce/reduce eventually after repeated macroexpansion[-dammit]/ 22:13:08 pbusser: no. It gets you variable binding, scope creation, and if your language has side effects, sequential execution. 22:13:16 Adlai: the point is that you don't need to write those expansions yourself 22:13:30 if you have CL's lambda, you also get a bit of argument list destructuring. 22:13:35 Adlai: and that is wrong 22:13:49 Adlai: macros can do any kind of computation 22:14:06 Adlai: with-slots is a bit tricky to reduce to a simple function :) 22:14:14 true, but don't they have to ultimately expand to functions and special forms? 22:14:27 adeht: True, but misleading: You can't rely on side-effects from macroexpansion because you don't know how many times the macro will be expanded. 22:14:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:14:29 sykopomp, right, it uses a special form 22:14:32 Adlai: and no, I'm not really concerned about side-effectful part of computation 22:14:42 nyef: ^ 22:14:55 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:16 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:23 Meh. Your next issue is that the user can call the macroexpander, even from within a macro. 22:15:45 the gigamonkeys's book says "the programmable programming language" 22:15:50 is it true in real world? 22:15:55 Fare: if you want to make your functions uber-lightweight, you could also fall back to a concatenative language. Now you don't even have to worry about variables :P 22:16:07 slap some [] around your code, and lambda GET 22:16:10 nyef: perhaps you misunderstood.. in my remark about computation, I didn't have "side-effects" in mind 22:16:16 Evet: yes. 22:16:29 Fair enough. 22:17:12 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:44 sykopomp: My point is that we're using programming languages like Lisp _because_ they provide an abstraction. 22:18:09 sykopomp: Which means that it takes more than "it's just abstraction" to dismiss a feature. 22:18:18 well, sure, but macros are kind of overblown by people that don't know how to use them (including myself) 22:18:27 and I'm not dismissing macros :) 22:18:28 sykopomp: Otherwise you might as well dismiss programming languages alltogether. 22:18:31 I love them <3 22:18:34 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:18:40 ask Adlai. He'll back me up. 22:18:50 Scriptor [~tamreenkh@cpe-98-14-252-58.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:12 sykopomp, factor looks sexy indeed 22:20:31 yes, sykopomp loves programming languages (and creative misinterpretation) 22:20:40 pbusser: i thought it was because lisp provides a way to define our own abstractions. 22:21:50 pkhuong: Your own abstractions are abstractions too. :-) 22:22:40 pkhuong: Anyways, I know people who use other programming languages than Lisp. They provide a kind of abstraction too, even when they don't allow to define new abstractions. 22:23:20 nyef: in fact, some computations depending on state (but perhaps not modifying it) are quite common when writing certain kinds of macros 22:23:39 Anyways, good night! 22:23:40 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 22:23:52 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:24:33 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-135-217.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:58 so the result of macroexpansion may be different at different times.. and that's still managable 22:27:58 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-48-208.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 22:29:28 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:11 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:32:37 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 22:32:50 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 22:36:53 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:49 -!- athlon [~user@79-98-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:06 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-169-165.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:41:28 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:06 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:51 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-45.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:49:10 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:50:55 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:52:15 k23z__ [~k23z__@unaffiliated/k23z--/x-2536701] has joined #lisp 22:52:22 is Perl slower than Lisp ? 22:52:35 Common lisp 22:52:40 ah I just remember 22:52:45 language shootout 22:52:47 sorry for asking 22:53:11 <_3b> depends on how hard you throw them 22:53:38 _3b: the winner is the one who thought of rocket booster 22:54:02 _3b: wow , very good joke !!! 22:54:05 <_3b> p_l: still depends on how they implemented it :) 22:54:15 _3b: who told you that joke tell me please ! 22:54:15 <_3b> k23z__: it isn't a meaningful question 22:54:21 _3b: tell me who told you the joke please 22:54:26 _3b: I want to talk to him 22:54:29 <_3b> k23z__: 'Lisp' doesn't have a speed 22:54:41 _3b: yes, but please tell me who told you the joke 22:56:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:56:31 -!- Scriptor [~tamreenkh@cpe-98-14-252-58.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Scriptor] 22:56:39 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:56 _3b: why do you want to keep all the good jokes for yourself and not share with others 22:58:28 _3b: you are truly selfish 22:58:57 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:54 -!- k23z__ [~k23z__@unaffiliated/k23z--/x-2536701] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:01 jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-ctyngybwitdalujb] has joined #lisp 23:04:19 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:04:50 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:05:33 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-169-165.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06:48 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.134] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 -!- Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.94.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:10:00 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:26 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:10:39 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:14:53 wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-141-155-23-197.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:54 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:17:05 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:17:09 -!- wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-167-130.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:20:31 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfi152.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:21:27 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:21:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-45.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 23:21:39 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-70-23-80-50.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:57 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-141-155-23-197.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:27:34 -!- Sternmull [~kringel@p57AAC37A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 23:28:24 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 23:29:10 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:27 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 23:30:20 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:36 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 23:33:49 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-162-170.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:39:55 -!- konr` is now known as konr 23:40:04 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:22 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44:08 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has quit [Quit: brb] 23:45:39 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:45:41 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 23:49:40 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:50:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:51:39 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:19 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.219.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:28 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-83-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:55:20 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-109-215.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp