00:00:08 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:00:31 crouton, what do you mean by "understand"? 00:00:35 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B953.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:01:31 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-26-179.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:02:00 dfox [~dfox@94.113.17.246] has joined #lisp 00:02:21 you can get a rough feel of the basics quickly, but (as with any language worth learning) it takes a long time to master it 00:02:35 well our prof decided to wait until there were only about 4 weeks left for the term to drop a project on us that requires lisp programming to implement some knowledge base system. i've never programmed in lisp and i'm sure neither has anyone else in the 10 person class. 00:02:41 cmm [~cmm@109.67.26.179] has joined #lisp 00:02:57 minion, tell crouton about pcl 00:02:58 crouton: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:02:59 okay, that's what i thought 00:03:26 -!- milanj [~milan@91.150.119.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:28 yea i guess i'll need that 00:04:07 he kept talking about CLIPS 00:04:10 and Jess 00:04:11 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-196.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:05:03 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@64.134.234.45] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 00:05:08 Younder [~jthing@75.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 00:06:18 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-196.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:46 ah okay.. the interface is like that of clisp 00:07:25 "lisp", clisp, and CLIPS are three different things 00:07:41 -!- konr`` [~user@201.82.136.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:08:37 yea, you're right. i thought he was mispronouncing clisp as CLIPS.. 00:08:54 "lisp" is a family of programming languages, and when the word is used to describe a specific language, it usually means (ANSI) Common Lisp. clisp is an open-source interpreter for Common Lisp. CLIPS is some functional programming language that I just know by name. 00:09:05 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:09:38 tnkrm [~user@c-5af9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:09:51 i see 00:10:07 hmm these rules seem to be similar in syntax to lisp.. 00:10:20 okay, maybe this won't be as bad as i thought 00:10:45 nice, it can be called from C haha 00:11:09 so i guess i need to make the knowledge base part of it in CLIPS and the gui part in C perhaps 00:13:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:13:49 -!- tnkrm [~user@c-5af9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:21 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:15:32 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:32 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:15:32 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 00:16:58 phnglui_ [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 -!- phnglui [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:19:09 -!- phnglui_ is now known as phnglui 00:19:16 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-143-11.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:19:54 crouton, glancing at CLIPS... it looks like any similarity to lisp is superficial 00:21:43 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.87.243] has joined #lisp 00:24:44 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:16 Adlai: historical 00:25:46 or cultural perhaps 00:26:10 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:26:38 -!- c|mell [~cmell@88-96-216-86.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:27:29 -!- crouton [crouton@bas1-toronto10-1279558720.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 00:28:38 -!- LiamH 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[~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:19 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:50:10 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:56:34 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:10 -!- mejja [~user@c-52b1e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:47 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.10] has quit [Quit: router hop.] 02:05:25 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:06:39 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:06:52 hrm, no "Teach Yourself Lisp in 10 Minutes" on Amazon; pity! 02:09:22 ha-ha...yeah, right. link? 02:09:59 always liked this one better: http://norvig.com/21-days.html 02:10:01 Norvig had a really good article about the cult of quick learning. 02:10:11 haha, apparently you read it too ;) 02:10:28 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:11:32 heh, nod, pretty good stuff. I thought the inclusion of `telegraph operator' was a bit odd though. Tapping out morse doesn't _seem_ that difficult, on the surface. 02:12:40 heh yeah, but the general thought is sound. Kinda reminds me of martial arts..where a few moves one can take a lifetime to learn and it's not a wasted life doing so 02:13:27 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:14:29 I've been playing with programming languages for about a decade now, maybe a little longer. (I didnt get my first computer until I was 26). I'm a master of none. I blame it on my less than optimal attention span. 02:14:40 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:23 danlei [~user@pD9E2EE4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:26 byte: Generally I find that attention span closely follows actual interest. 02:20:53 Zhivago: nod. I love programming, but I get bored with a language or domain sometimes. A "Language Hopper" ;) 02:21:19 I always end up back to lisp though 02:21:25 *at 02:25:17 I know my problem with lisp. I've written decent sized apps in Python and C++. That, to me is the key to knowing your way around a language. I have yet to write anything of size in cl. I wrote a parser generator in Scheme, not a _small_ project, by my measure. So I understand quite a bit of Python, Scheme and C++. But cl, not yet ;) 02:26:15 Scheme is a lisp, so ... 02:26:57 Zhivago: nod, and it's helped a lot when looking at cl, but it's a _much_ smaller language. Comapre R5RS to the HyperSpec. 02:27:06 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has quit [K-Lined] 02:28:00 Well, considering the core of the languages, I'd put the critical difference upon the lack of a user extensible type system in scheme. 02:28:47 DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-151-196-110-190.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:08 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:46 danlei` [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:57 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2EE4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:33:00 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 02:34:03 -!- seangrov` [~user@adsl-99-185-247-101.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:35:44 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:21 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:50:38 bytecolor: I used to be a language hopper as well...I pretty much settled on CL for most stuff. Sometimes by force, but I bounce around languages way too much 02:51:04 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:52:04 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.231.162] has joined #lisp 02:52:35 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:10 TDT: even with my limited knowledge of cl, I still realize it is, in fact, at the top of the food chain. Which is why I keep comming back to it. When writing in Scheme I had numerous "wow" moments. Not so in any other language. 02:59:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:02:19 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:46 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:19 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:23 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@62.65.193.33.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 03:06:12 bytecolor: I don't know abotu the top of the food chain, the way I look at it is that since it's multi-paradigm, and whenever I use lisp I gotta scratch my brain a bit to get some stuff - that I've learned a whole lot. There's also a lot of really helpful people in this room as well which makes it even better. 03:07:23 BrianRice [~briantric@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:50 More realistically, CL is a large pile of expedient hacks. 03:14:12 "It works, put an ANSI stamp on it!" 03:15:15 If you look at the history of lisp, it is almost the exact opposite of design, with the exception of scheme. 03:15:37 Everything that has endured was something that people didn't initially want. 03:16:12 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:01 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:17:41 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:18:03 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:18:42 -!- DeusExPikachu [~DeusExPik@pool-151-196-110-190.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:19:30 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:20:29 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:22:17 pkhuong: I think that was C++, not CL. "Oh, a proposal? Put it in, someone just got to have ause for it!" :P 03:22:51 danlei` [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:53 "It works" is not the same as "That sounds like a good idea". 03:23:02 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:23:04 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 03:24:34 nebula [~John@206.31.245.2] has joined #lisp 03:25:25 -!- nebula [~John@206.31.245.2] has left #lisp 03:25:42 p_l: 0x rejected several good ideas that had uses (e.g. traits). 03:29:17 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@62.65.193.33.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 03:31:41 *p_l* finds himself scared of C++ as it is. 03:32:24 I always thought it would be templates that will do me in. It was operator overloading. Hidden in tons of templates,or in between... dunno, it was unreadable 03:32:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.231.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:32:50 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:35:47 Templates are fine really. Just don't try to debug more than one template error at a time. 03:35:52 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:36:51 pkhuong: or reading though some header file that was never meant to be read, apparently, which looked like it did important part of the compiler's job through templates 03:40:03 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f720cad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:40:26 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f725381.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:46 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 03:51:16 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:34 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:51 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-115-31.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:54:20 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:26 jan247_ [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:26 -!- jan247_ [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:54:26 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 03:55:39 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:55:39 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 03:57:19 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:44 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ajcimpawlnoqwusv] has joined #lisp 04:02:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:03:27 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:03:35 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:04:06 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7D98.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:04:46 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-145-189.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:05:35 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 04:06:04 TR2N [email@89-180-145-189.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 04:08:12 -!- Amadiro_ [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:09:23 danlei` [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:34 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:09:37 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 04:10:14 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-54.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:10:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:10:56 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:00 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:11:01 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 04:12:31 hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has joined #lisp 04:18:31 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:21 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:39 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 04:20:50 tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.32.65] has joined #lisp 04:20:58 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:23:40 Amadiro_ [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 04:24:06 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.239] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:24 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.239] has joined #lisp 04:24:52 quick api design question 04:25:49 if you have ROUTE-MERGE as vaguely analogous to merge-pathnames, wich of these two behaviours seems like the Right Thing: 04:25:55 (route-merge "foo/bar" "foo/") ==> "foo/foo/bar" (or "foo/bar" ?) 04:26:43 the whole purpose of starting a closy replacement for pathnames was to be able to trivially merge paths 04:27:54 but list merging is funny if the components are not guaranteed unique names; a name is only guaranteed unique in its "directory" namespace 04:28:04 hello fusss 04:28:11 hey madnificent 04:29:05 would it be evil to require that at least one path must be fully specified? 04:29:11 I'd be thinking about "foo/foo/bar", I guess... but I'm not the one to ask 04:29:54 perhaps a keyword can control behaviour 04:30:23 I don't think it would be very friendly to require that one path must be fully specified (unless you can override it with a keyword, then it may be ok) 04:30:30 sorta like ensure-directories-exist 04:31:57 fwiw, pathname examples in the spec could benefit from some overhauling. what OSes are these anyway, so i can look up their details? 04:35:14 fusss: have you done a lot of ajax over time? 04:35:33 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-220-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:53 fusss: I'll have a list of OSes soon, I think 04:35:55 oconnore_ [~oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:20 ... oh joy, the merge-pathnames docs in hyperspec are really ancient 04:36:30 that's TOPS-20 there 04:38:14 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:38:22 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:41 rename-file I think has examples based on either Genera or Multics (I'm not sure, my OpenGenera was too crashy to really learn) 04:39:51 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-255-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:40:28 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:40:51 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:59 Good morning. 04:43:53 fusss: the example from file-write-date is completely cryptic for me - it uses both logical device/host and unix-like path. The example from pathname-(host/device/etc.) page has, in order, VMS, Unix then Genera 04:45:10 good morning beach 04:45:35 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:45:44 beach: morning 04:46:04 morning beach. 04:47:15 yo gigamonkey 04:47:21 gigamonkey: which output file did you mean? 04:48:40 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 04:50:28 The argument to --output 04:50:53 If I invoke buildapp and partway through loading all the Lisp systems at fails, I seem to still end up with an output file. 04:50:57 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night folks] 04:51:05 And the make thinks the thing has be built. 04:51:10 s/be/been/ 04:52:57 gigamonkey: i wonder how that could be 04:53:12 gigamonkey: the output argument is the thing created at the very end by save-lisp-and-die 04:53:17 Maybe I was just imagining it. 04:53:23 gigamonkey: if something fails, it in theory shouldn't get to that part 04:54:06 Well, if I see it happening again I'll collect some more details about what exactyl happened. 04:55:27 ok, thanks. 04:55:46 So when am I going to get you to write something for Code Quarterly? 04:57:38 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:57:50 hmm, it's almost midnight here, so probably tomorrow at the earliest 04:59:07 heh. 04:59:20 danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:11 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 05:06:15 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:07:23 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:18 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:12:14 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-145-189.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 05:12:25 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 05:12:26 -!- BrianRice [~briantric@65-124-255-226.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 05:16:01 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:18:41 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:56 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 05:21:38 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:54 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:25:28 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 05:25:40 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:57 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:11 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:34:14 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:36:32 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 05:37:43 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:39:14 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 05:47:49 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:48:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ajcimpawlnoqwusv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.132.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:52:53 -!- easyE [MdYz274A5k@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:57:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.32.65] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:57:36 tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.32.65] has joined #lisp 06:01:19 -!- ram0x62 [~ram@home.ramandgita.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:09:06 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.32.65] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 06:11:15 gigamonkey: when can we expect posted materials to show up as part of Code Quarterly? :-) 06:13:38 p_l: how do you mean? 06:14:46 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 06:15:24 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:16:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:56 gigamonkey: I was wondering how early it might get into the "we are publishing" stage from now. Just out of curiosity, since I don't think I have good enough material to submit now (though depending on conditions, both local and publishing-related, and ideas, it might change) 06:17:51 Well, I'm working now to get the editorial pipeline flowing. 06:18:28 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:28 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:18:28 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:18:44 The soonest we will likely publish something is end of May, beginning of June or maybe a bit earlier if we roll articles out onesy-twosey. 06:18:59 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:19:40 But if we can't get an issue's worth of articles by early June, their will probably be a bit of a delay as I'm expecting a new baby mid-June which is going to have some effect on my ability to do a lot of work. It's all a bit up in the air at the moment. 06:22:22 BTW, I just updated the writers guidelines at http://www.codequarterly.com/write.html with more info about what we're looking for in a proposal. 06:22:33 by end of may? hmmm... who knows, maybe I'll write something :-) 06:22:40 btw, congrats on the baby. 06:23:20 Thanks. 06:23:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 06:24:29 Yeah. Another unknown is how long the edit cycle will be. For something to be published end of May, I'll need to see a draft well before then. 06:24:40 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24:41 don't forget to grill the doctors to give a thorough checkup after birth, possibly some more later... unnoticed stuff bites in the ass. HARD. 06:24:41 How much before, we don't know yet. 06:25:35 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:25:59 *p_l* doesn't believe himself that he just blurted that piece of advice out to someone who probably already has kids... 06:26:31 That's okay--life as a parent is full of unsolicited advice. ;-) 06:26:40 btw, how big is 25-50 pages? As in, how big is "standard page" (including other variants of pages) 06:26:50 350 words/page. 06:26:56 HG` [~HG@xdslei093.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:09 Is what I usually use. 06:27:27 I should probably put that in terms of words to start with. 06:27:45 gigamonkey: well, let's say that quite recently my sister was found to suffer from condition that should have been diagnosed short time after birth. I'm kinda supervigilant on that :D 06:28:18 Yeah, I can see how that would make you sensitive to the issue. 06:29:41 anon3874 [~8b507b22@gateway/web/freenode/x-ibdigwexfhycwakf] has joined #lisp 06:30:06 back to code quarterly, would a study on actual project (commercial one), showing issues faced, techniques available and possible solutions be an okay article? 06:30:50 -!- rme [rme@clozure-DC352DBC.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:30:51 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:31:32 Could anyone let me know how to inform SBCL that I won't be using a variable, but I'm going to define it anyway (in a destructuring-bind) 06:31:38 There you go, 8,000-20,000 words is now the target. 06:31:49 (declare (ignore variable)) 06:32:14 hmm... now that I look at the list of proposed topics, I notice computers in education... I've got this little interesting book which had gone about computers in completely different way while still being written for children 06:32:21 p_l: yeah, as long as you can give enough detail about the project. 06:32:27 (If it's commercial, can you show the code?) 06:32:42 thanks gigamonkey 06:33:15 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:33:20 gigamonkey: I was thinking more of doing it as a study, avoiding the original source code, but providing samples doing discussed tasks written specifically for the kind of work discussed in the article 06:34:13 this way, I'm out of trouble with the busted project (my fault. Well, kinda mine and owner's, but I should have done things differently, which I also plan on covering) 06:34:42 p_l: I think the trick would be to make it broad enough. It's fine to write about a specific project, or whatever, but it needs to provide some interesting lessons the go beyond that project. 06:37:19 gigamonkey: well, I imagined the target of the article to be actually two -people who didn't work commercially, but know their way regarding programming, and the actual topic of a website (page? service? application? it was mainly search) that dealt with scraping, geospatial data and lack of proper guidance from boss :D 06:38:59 as for the education... I've got this little german book, written evidently for children. It's also my first cpu design book, cause it contained enough info to get started. 06:39:41 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:56 would it be ok to assume that (incf x) is atomic? 06:40:43 and would it be ok to assume that reading and writing are both atomic (given that they don't depend on value of the item itself) 06:43:17 madnificent: there is no reason to assume that (incf x) is atomic 06:43:39 -!- hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Quit: hybrid_mind] 06:43:47 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:43:54 mega1 [~quassel@53d82708.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:44:00 gigamonk` [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-83-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:29 Xach: would it be safe to assume that if I knew the number was of a certain type? 06:44:38 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 06:44:48 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:44:55 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 06:45:32 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:33 Goodnight folks. 06:45:36 it feels like such an overkill to set up a lock for something that can probably be done atomically 06:45:40 goodnight gigamonkey 06:45:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ehyojyzmriitcmvl] has joined #lisp 06:45:43 madnificent: I don't think it would be safe to assume this portably. But other's would know more, I guess 06:46:01 p_l: it wouldn't be portable, no 06:46:31 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:43 madnificent: implementations sometimes provide an explicitly atomic incf (or the primitives to do it yourself sans locks) 06:47:07 madnificent: absent specific guarantees from the implementation i would not assume anything about it being atomic 06:47:08 I mean, if it were portable, then it would have to be so on different hardware architectures. But I don't know any architectures that don't support C, and I thought C specified that ++ was an atomic operation. So, I deduce that I know no systems which can't do incf on an int atomically 06:47:33 Xach: I didn't know that, that's interesting 06:48:05 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 06:48:37 can I assume that assigning a value to a variable is atomic? In the sense that if one thread is writing a variable and another tries to read it, that the second one will not receive rubbish? Or would it be the exact same advise? 06:48:58 madnificent: C has ++ as atomic because it's supported for a very locked down set of types that are supported usually with single instruction in cpu (though I can assure you that ++ can be very unatomic on modern cpus) 06:49:05 s/advise/advice (right?) 06:49:49 p_l: yes 06:49:55 danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:57 sanxiyn [~tinuviel@116.37.85.54] has joined #lisp 06:50:19 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-83-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:50:20 madnificent, why would you expect it to be atomic? it could theoretically involve three instructions -- load, increment, store. 06:51:13 even if you're dealing with a local variable, it could have spilled to the stack, and thus not be incrementable by a single instruction 06:51:16 Adlai: basically because C and Java allow you to do it atomically. So I somewhat wondered. On most systems it could be done atomically, how would I found out it if it really was atomically in a certain lisp on a certain machine... 06:51:36 argh, I'd love to discuss, but my carpool is here... time for work. 06:51:39 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: -> work] 06:53:06 -!- anon3874 [~8b507b22@gateway/web/freenode/x-ibdigwexfhycwakf] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:53:36 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:00 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:56:21 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 06:56:32 madnificent: actually, in multithreaded C programs ++ is not atomic, afaik 06:56:42 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:02 it's only atomic inside current context of execution 06:58:40 mereale [mereale@mextli.tomaw.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:19 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban2.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:39 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:45 the only architecture where I can think of a way to *ensure* atomicity is currently alpha, but that's because I recall it's MP and cache semantics 07:02:45 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: looking for my other third...] 07:03:20 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:04:40 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 07:05:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:06:59 in that case, I should double-check it 07:08:50 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:08:56 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:39 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:16:28 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:16:51 *p_l* wonders if x86 even has memory-lock instructions 07:18:29 LOCK ? 07:18:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:18:58 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:05 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:19:22 schme: dunno, I know that such stuff exists on Alpha (where it locks down a block of memory for exclusive access by CPU, thus ensuring no cache-related issues) 07:19:49 p_l: It sounds kinda like what the lock prefix does. 07:23:09 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:25:20 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:27:08 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 07:27:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ehyojyzmriitcmvl] has left #lisp 07:30:39 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 07:31:29 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:31 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban2.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:33:41 BrianRice [~briantric@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:38 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:56 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:46:37 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@130.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:47:41 -!- sanxiyn [~tinuviel@116.37.85.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:51:38 Joreji [~thomas@83-093.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:55:25 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:55:45 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 07:55:57 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-093.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:57:39 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mmnjicygrhodpgfq] has joined #lisp 07:59:14 madnificent, did you find a suitable solution ? 07:59:46 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:02:43 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-155.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:03:41 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:04:24 good morning 08:04:44 splittist [~534d3179@gateway/web/freenode/x-saghthxvltrgbngn] has joined #lisp 08:05:03 morning 08:05:19 nostoi [~nostoi@71.Red-79-151-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:14 Joreji [~thomas@83-093.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:09:18 good morning, splittist and mvilleneuve 08:10:22 *p_l* is pretty sure he had seen some stuff for atomic operations in SBCL 08:10:39 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:11:50 -!- c|mell [~cmell@88-96-216-86.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:12:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-093.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:12:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.214] has joined #lisp 08:13:16 Joreji [~thomas@83-093.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:13:49 p_l, SBCL has ATOMIC-INCF and COMPARE-AND-SWAP, both exported from SB-EXT 08:14:22 both however have a little "EXPERIMENTAL: Interface subject to change" note 08:15:06 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslei093.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:15:17 enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:08 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-26.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 08:18:15 sanxiyn [~tinuviel@116.37.85.54] has joined #lisp 08:19:41 *p_l* just read that GCC uses its own extensions for that, too 08:22:57 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:24:48 aerique [~euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:27:15 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:27:42 -!- sanxiyn [~tinuviel@116.37.85.54] has quit [Quit:   .] 08:28:16 benny [~benny@i577A771A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:58 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 08:31:28 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:32:44 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:48 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@71.Red-79-151-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:35:54 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:36:05 fiveop [~fiveop@e179162177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:58 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:40:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-093.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:37 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.75] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:44:12 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 08:44:17 lpolzer_, viridian-project.de is down (from over here, at least) 08:45:46 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:46:07 What's about tracd that it's so cpu hungry? 08:46:56 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:01 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440249.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:47:10 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:51:25 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441771.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:57:15 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-elbeddnnokrdizck] has joined #lisp 08:57:41 Joreji [~thomas@83-093.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:02:30 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179162177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:09:07 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:10:30 easyE [RjyIVA5YF5@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:43 splittist_ [~534d3179@gateway/web/freenode/x-zuzbxjiwfmahkaev] has joined #lisp 09:14:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:15:30 -!- splittist [~534d3179@gateway/web/freenode/x-saghthxvltrgbngn] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:22:40 Axius [~hi@92.82.89.198] has joined #lisp 09:23:09 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.89.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:27:34 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:28:15 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:48 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:11 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:30 nyef, re backtraces... could there be something in locking that screws up the backtrace? i have threads that i'm quite sure are waiting for some lock and if i break them in slime to see the backtrace, it's cut below (FLET SB-UNIX::RUN-HANDLER) and 4 foreign frames... (x86) 09:32:51 i've tried to reproduce it briefly but i couldn't 09:36:00 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 09:39:48 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:54 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:42:45 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:37 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:43:49 hello 09:44:00 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:48:06 -!- Amadiro_ [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 09:48:35 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:49:31 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:49:37 -!- splittist_ is now known as splittist 09:50:55 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 09:54:51 Adlai: I don't have the problem right now where it is extremely performance-critical, so it isfine 09:54:52 is fine 09:55:30 Adlai: I would like to hear your insights on the matter though. You're sure to find me in some channel, shout my name when you want to discuss it 09:56:40 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn141.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:47 -!- enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: sleep!] 10:04:45 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 10:07:35 -!- cartmansp [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-sgjangnfswrkhnae] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:09:05 madnificent, I'd use SB-EXT:COMPARE-AND-SWAP (unless your use-case can tolerate silent overflow) 10:09:43 if this counter is for some resources, maybe semaphores are appropriate? 10:10:10 I have one place where a semaphore would suit perfectly 10:10:15 what use case? 10:10:20 another one does reading/writing. So it is just communication 10:10:35 tcr: one place where I'd like to know how much references are made to me 10:10:46 tcr: all are toys though 10:10:56 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.55] has joined #lisp 10:11:03 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:11:12 Alright I have some mid-level synchronization tools for sbcl which are slightly similiar to semaphore but then slightly different again :-) 10:13:18 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-155.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:18 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:41 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-155.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 10:20:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mmnjicygrhodpgfq] has left #lisp 10:24:26 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:26:25 tcr: link? 10:26:58 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 10:27:58 it's not really public yet but: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/synchronization-tools/ 10:29:17 barriers have a threshold, say N. Threads can enter a barrier and will wait until N threads have entered barrier, in which case the barrier opens, and all the threads can continue doing stuff 10:29:54 i.e. barriers act as a synchronization point 10:30:22 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:30:31 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:32:33 perdix [~perdix@f055164091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:33 -!- perdix [~perdix@f055164091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Changing host] 10:32:33 perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 10:33:09 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:17 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:36:36 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:37:23 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 10:37:23 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit 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[Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:18:00 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 11:24:35 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:25:35 wvdschel [~wim@27.54-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 11:25:56 is there an efficient CL implementation that runs on ARM? 11:27:25 <[df]> wvdschel: I think people tend to recommend ecl 11:27:27 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:28:10 mega1 [~quassel@53d82708.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:28:29 [df]: they don't list ARM as a supported architecture, but it should work then? 11:28:55 <[df]> I haven't tried personally 11:29:16 well, thanks for the tip in any case, now I'm off to lunch! 11:29:23 -!- wvdschel [~wim@27.54-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:46 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:30:16 *splittist* thought pg was doing a deal with Jobs to get Arc as the official language of the iPad... 11:31:34 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:21 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:37:45 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:38:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:43:16 -!- splittist [~534d3179@gateway/web/freenode/x-zuzbxjiwfmahkaev] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:46:32 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:46:49 GrayGnome` [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 11:49:32 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:49:32 -!- GrayGnome [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:51:58 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 11:52:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 11:57:45 splittist [~534d3179@gateway/web/freenode/x-tqxpyyaruwltsbkc] has joined 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#lisp 14:42:30 ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:43:28 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 14:45:02 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:45:02 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:45:02 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:48:33 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:52 S11001001 [~sirian@65-97-186-194.ftl.fdn.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:55 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@65-97-186-194.ftl.fdn.com] has left #lisp 14:53:32 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:54:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:55:45 fiveop [~fiveop@e179162177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:56:20 Axius [~fd@92.84.1.10] has joined #lisp 14:57:02 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.252] has joined #lisp 14:58:04 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:42 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:59:55 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:08 G'morning all. 15:01:17 hi nyef 15:01:46 attila_lendvai: My best guess on the backtrace thing involves signal delivery to a thread that's in alien code that's been compiled -fomit-frame-pointer. 15:02:16 attila_lendvai: SBCL's backtrace is predicated on an unbroken frame chain, instead of using platform unwind support, thus can't handle such a situation. 15:02:20 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441771.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 15:05:13 nyef, i'm not really an expert in this... but mega said that he removed all prediction from the backtrace stuff. there some *saved-fp-and-xx* variable that stores what needs to be stored in case of alien calls 15:05:40 nyef, could be that somewhere the primitive installing it is not used... /speculating/ 15:05:41 Really? Hrm... 15:06:15 nyef, *saved-fp-and-pcs* it is 15:06:22 mm... That means we can always have working lisp-side backtraces. 15:06:43 I think it calls for precise stack scanning. 15:06:48 At the cost of a more expensive call-out / call-in sequence, and it being an utter kludge. 15:07:45 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bhhdgztdutxywkdc] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:51 -!- Samuel9999 [~tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has left #lisp 15:08:02 nyef: at least we have it. How else would you do it? Even with support for native unwind format, we can't protect ourselves agains subtly buggy foreign code 15:08:51 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:09:21 well, working backtraces are worth a lot to me... 15:09:58 Blkt [~user@93-33-141-210.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:10:13 since i'm working with lisp the time i spend debugging is radically lowered, and that's true even if i add the time we spend developing path-to-root finders and whatnot 15:10:35 but broken backtraces cause a whole lot of pain 15:10:55 i look at the log file and i have no idea what went wrong in a situation i can't reproduce 15:11:08 stassats`: hello, thanks for making slime-documentation show function arglist. Is it possible to slightly improve it so that arglist is still shown even when the function has no doc-string? 15:12:02 arglist in the echo area isn't enough? 15:12:22 Hey, the saved-fp-and-pcs thing only happens when (<= speed debug). 15:12:36 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441771.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:12:58 nyef, err, damn it... thank's for the heads up! 15:13:09 any way to force it with a declaim? 15:13:27 ...which works ignoring the speed/debug settings? 15:13:27 nyef: what part of the hack do you find is fundamentally slow and distasteful? 15:13:29 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-154-0.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:39 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:15 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 15:14:24 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:14:30 pkhuong: Slow is that it's More Code in the call-out path. Distasteful is that it's More Code in the call-out path -and- doesn't solve the root issue of backtracing alien stack frames even though there are APIs available for that on the important platforms these days. 15:14:59 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-46-23.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:15:53 marcdam_ [~marcdam@91.100.82.88.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:17:59 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 15:18:24 stassats`: that's only shown when editing but when reading code one might just want to have a look at it 15:18:53 it's shown when reading code too 15:19:09 is the mutex stuff compiled for speed in sbcl? i can't see anything there... but that doesn't mean much. i see broken backtraces in threads waiting for locks on x86... 15:19:12 And the subtly broken alien code that would screw up SBCL backtrace would also screw up anyone else's backtrace. I would suggest that it's not a big deal in practice. 15:19:15 slime doesn't know whether you read it or write 15:19:21 -!- marcdam [~marcdam@91.100.82.88.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19:36 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:38 nyef: until we depend on it for something more than just printing backtraces. 15:20:15 stassats`: I have auto-doc turned off. 15:20:23 printing trustable backtraces is key for anyone running long processes 15:20:42 leo2007: well, that's your choice 15:20:57 attila_lendvai: we're talking about buggy code, probably hacked by hand in asm, here. 15:21:02 If you're going to be paranoid about that, then you also need something that's cheap enough to fire off every time you call-out and call-in, not something policy dependent. 15:21:13 hence my question re slowness. 15:21:25 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21:29 pkhuong, ah, ok. then it makes sense... 15:22:24 *attila_lendvai* considers deleting the <= speed debug line and recomile an sbcl on the server 15:22:54 The important hand-hacked ASM always has many people check it over for backtrace stuff. It's not like you're going to find something like the main syscall entry point not covered by accurate backtrace data. 15:23:36 nyef: in something like ATLAS though... 15:24:01 attila_lendvai: adding a derived policy setting wouldn't be much more work. 15:24:05 No, no... Your next line was to point out that there -was- a range of linux kernels which forgot the backtrace data for the syscall vDSO. 15:24:19 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:24:28 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:57 And may I point out that not all entries to the C runtime code go via call-out in the first place? 15:25:05 plutonas` [~plutonas@nomad50014.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 15:25:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.75.86] has joined #lisp 15:25:21 stassats`: I turned off auto-doc because it find it somehow distracting. slime already shows arglist when SPC which seems sufficient. But making slime-documentation show arglist because that's what users will expect and it is similar to emacs so users will have less surprise. 15:25:52 ntoll [~ntoll@88-110-171-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:54 the runtime is compiled with -fno-omit. 15:26:12 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:22 True, but it can also call other libraries, such as pthreads for locking functions. 15:26:26 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 I've noticed a good number of people complaining about the default -fomit on x86-64, so we might be able to wait a couple years and see the point become moot ;) 15:27:16 Really, -fomit is a good optimization. 15:27:42 low single-digits %, versus painful debugging session when things really break. 15:29:13 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:29:21 any comment on the grovelling dlopen stuff issue? 15:29:28 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:39 Heh. So, who wants to investigate the possibility of treating functions with DWARF unwind information as a formal logic and attempt to prove the theorem that any point in the function can be unwound? 15:29:59 nyef: that'd be interesting... 15:30:10 unwound *correctly* is hard to specify though 15:30:58 re -fomit, the interesting part is that people with the loudest voices can just buy a couple more boxen to compensate for any perf loss. 15:32:40 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:20 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:33:50 heh 15:35:11 -!- trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:35:39 pkhuong, people hunting 0.01% perfomance should be ready to recompile a bunch of libraries... 15:35:40 -!- plutonas` [~plutonas@nomad50014.netlogon.lu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:58 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:04 attila_lendvai: it's more on the order of 2-3%, I believe. 15:36:20 well, that's a different story then 15:37:35 -!- marcdam_ [~marcdam@91.100.82.88.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:38 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:39:04 pkhuong, is this a reasonable name? save-lisp-frame-before-calling-alien-code 15:39:23 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 15:39:39 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:12 save-fp-and-pc-around-alien-call? 15:41:14 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.226.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:41:49 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667e75-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:43:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.75.86] has left #lisp 15:43:59 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:45:08 leo2007 pasted "swank warnings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95872 15:45:37 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:45:42 folks, I got some warnings as shown in 95872 when starting swank. Are those expected? 15:46:47 leo2007: they are not harmful 15:46:48 *nyef* just figured out how to remove most of the #+alpha / #-alpha conditionalization in debug-int.lisp. 15:47:26 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 15:47:45 Xach: no. but are they indicating some sort of missing features in the swank backend (for me ccl)? 15:47:57 leo2007: yes. 15:48:08 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:49:38 I see some things to do with communication styles that you won't be using, three things I don't know the point of, and the slime debugger won't be able to step through code. 15:50:11 No doubt someone else knows what COMMAND-LINE-ARGS, DUP, and EXEC-IMAGE are for. 15:50:25 plutonas [~plutonas@nomad50014.netlogon.lu.se] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 saving images 15:52:06 Xach: thanks. I see on sbcl there are only 8 entries in that list but on ccl there are 15. 15:54:30 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:26 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:32 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:31 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:34 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:02:04 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:51 j4k0b [~j4k0b@1503024517.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:10:30 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:50 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:12 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:28 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:11:58 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Quit: A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!] 16:13:26 -!- pix4 [~pixel@dslb-088-078-031-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:14:08 pix4 [~pixel@dslb-088-078-031-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:20 lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 16:17:33 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 16:18:34 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ->home] 16:20:48 -!- Axius [~fd@92.84.1.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:20:51 milanj [~milan@91.150.119.66] has joined #lisp 16:25:05 nickjd [~76eca0ef@gateway/web/freenode/x-jsgzlpvkqhczaume] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:28:16 TR2N [email@89-180-169-215.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 16:29:05 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:29:56 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:38 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-154-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:00 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:36:51 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-elbeddnnokrdizck] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:30 perdix [~perdix@f055164091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:30 -!- perdix [~perdix@f055164091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Changing host] 16:37:30 perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 16:38:54 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:49 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:40:32 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:24 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:41:42 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@nomad50014.netlogon.lu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:07 pkhuong, is it this simple? http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl;a=commitdiff;h=c6571fdb126201bb2d15bd5a04f6fd235e6e3bcd 16:42:11 htk__ [~htk___@95.65.240.5] has joined #lisp 16:43:30 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:46 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:45:47 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:46:38 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-154-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:30 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:49:21 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #lisp 16:49:41 -!- aerique [~euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:50:07 attila_lendvai: Surely you also need to export the policy name via package-data.lisp-expr? 16:50:41 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-154-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:50:57 And it looks like you're changing the actual default? 16:51:04 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-154-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:36 nyef, i'm not sure i want to export it. the new default looks sane... shall i keep the original? 16:51:57 Your patch, your call. 16:52:10 And if it ever gets commit to mainline, it's the committer's call. 16:52:24 nyef, no... i don't have commit right. how about grabbing it, cleaning up and pusiing it? ;) 16:52:57 While it would put me even with nikodemus for patches thus far this cycle, I'm going to decline. 16:57:32 sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 16:59:27 I'm really not liking this OSX thread-post_mortem patch. Why not patch sb-posix to call for postmortem processing immediately pre-fork? 16:59:32 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:09 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:00:33 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 17:01:34 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:11 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:04:11 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 17:07:42 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:24 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:38 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661d50-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 17:18:47 konr [~user@201.82.136.22] has joined #lisp 17:20:22 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:25:43 Good evening! 17:26:06 Hello beach. 17:29:43 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:35 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:33:38 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:36:26 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:36:29 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 17:36:43 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:37:50 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:53 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-141-210.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:44 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:49 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:43:51 -!- lithper2__ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 17:43:59 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:03 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:46:25 hi beach 17:46:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:48:46 -!- sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:16 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:52:27 qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has joined #lisp 17:53:14 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:20 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 -!- htk__ [~htk___@95.65.240.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55:46 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:03 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:07 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 17:59:43 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:59:57 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:00:02 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:00:39 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:00:39 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 18:01:30 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:49 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 18:01:59 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:46 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 ephcon [~ephcon@amherst597.amherstma.gov] has joined #lisp 18:04:29 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:25 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-46-23.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:27 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:05:36 can anyone hasard a guess as to how "Vierstraete" should be pronounced? 18:05:40 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 18:06:39 -!- mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:02 daniel [~daniel@p5082E5C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:21 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 18:07:41 fear-shtrteh 18:08:23 accent on the 1st syllable 18:08:51 pkhuong: Is that 4th Street in not-quite-German? 18:08:55 ae approximated with a short-e 18:09:15 sellout: looks like dutch 18:09:58 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@amherst597.amherstma.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:10:35 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F4A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:11:38 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:12:30 -!- pix4 [~pixel@dslb-088-078-031-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:12:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 18:13:56 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:33 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-60-54.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-148-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 sellout: I'd guess dutch too. 18:15:14 Or immigration-agent-mangled german. 18:17:25 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has joined #lisp 18:17:29 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:54 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-47-184.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:19:11 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a1d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:24 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-553-1-28-160.w92-144.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:21:51 aefkei_ [~quassel@lagarto.irisa.fr] has joined #lisp 18:23:21 Hi all. Would anyone be kind enough to shed some light on curious behaviour for a beginner like myself? 18:23:43 aefkei_: ask your question(s). 18:24:20 aefkei_: We are very tolerant wrt the curious behavior of beginners. 18:24:51 Thanks: here goes. I am wondering why a delete on a setq'd list works only in some circumstances. 18:24:54 Case in point: 18:25:06 (setq mylist '(a b c d)) 18:25:14 (delete 'c mylist) 18:25:25 => mylist = (a b d) 18:25:29 (delete 'a mylist) 18:25:30 => mylist = (a b d) 18:25:32 ! 18:25:36 aefkei_: That is undefined behavior. You are not allowed to have side effects on constant data. 18:25:37 delete does not set mylist again. 18:25:48 you need to do (setq mylist (delete 'a mylist)) 18:25:52 aefkei_, you should check the return value of delete, rather than what's left in the argument you passed to it 18:25:58 beach: The question would still stand for (setq mylist (list 'a 'b 'c 'd)). 18:26:11 nyef: I know. I was doing one thing at a time. 18:26:19 Fair enough. 18:26:21 minion: tell aefkei_ about lisppaste 18:26:22 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:26:23 aefkei_: you should also stay away from delete and its other destructive counterparts unless you know you can/should use them. 18:26:35 use remove, instead. 18:27:23 Sure, I understand the concept of side effect and returned value. But why the inconsistent behavior? 18:27:31 aefkei_: A list in Lisp is not an abstract data type, but what I call a concrete one. The variable mylist will still contain a pointer to the cell containing the a. 18:27:32 okay so... 18:27:48 rares [~rares@174-26-81-7.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:48 delete returns a new list with the items removed, and it *might* actually side-effect the structure. 18:27:56 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066156.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:57 And thanks for the reco. I'll definitely be using remove from now on. 18:28:11 aefkei_, delete doesn't even have to side-effect anything; it's just allowed to do so. 18:28:14 so with both remove and delete, what you're interested is the return value. 18:28:45 aefkei_: You can use delete if you know that nobody else shares structure with your list, but you should use it the same way you use remove. 18:30:06 aefkei_: There is no inconsistent behavior in there, only your misunderstanding of what the standard says will happen. 18:30:32 sykopomp, I hear you on the "use the returned value" point. What I don't understand is, why "*might* side-effect"? Is there any technical reason why this semantic ionconsistency is allowed to survive in a modern-day language ? 18:30:45 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:30:58 aefkei_: There is no semantic inconsistency. 18:31:03 aefkei_: it's an optimization, basically. 18:31:17 aefkei_: You are using it in a way that is not defined by the standard. 18:31:18 beach, thanks for clarifying the destructive / sharing problem. 18:31:39 aefkei_: Sure, that's my job. 18:31:58 aefkei_: delete/nconc/etc do the same thing as their counterparts, but the spec allows them to destroy list structure, if the implementation wants to, so you should only use them in some situations. 18:32:03 aefkei_, it's *allowed* to side-effect the list passed to it, but that's for creating the return value, not for modifying its argument in-place. 18:32:18 but you can s/delete/remove/ all your code (if you're using delete correctly) and it should be basically the same thing. 18:32:33 it might cons more, is all 18:33:20 You know, if fixnums weren't so wide, we could have a "literal constant" type-tag for pointer types... 18:33:28 At least on 64-bit targets. 18:33:51 nyef: we could also put them in RO pages. 18:34:02 Fair enough. 18:34:20 That'd work on 32-bit ports as well. 18:34:49 heck, bundle them with the code object even, maybe. 18:35:03 ephcon [~ephcon@amherst597.amherstma.gov] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 Hey, what's a good name for a feature conditional for when you're running on a system with 64-bit native pointers but 32-bit heap pointers? 18:35:24 Arg. Let me see if I get this right. DELETE has a destructive behavior, which depending on the case, might or might not be compatible with side-effects. Amiright? 18:35:25 (Other than ALPHA, that is?) 18:36:05 aefkei_: No, no... DELETE may cause side-effects. Destructive behavior -is- a side-effect. 18:36:12 nyef: small-c? (: 18:36:42 aefkei_: Sort of. It may alter your list structure, but in no way can it modify your variable, because Lisp is call-by-value, so the value of the variable holding a pointer to the list can never be modified by a function, and delete is a function. 18:36:42 pkhuong: I'm... not getting the joke? 18:37:05 Didn't the C compilers under dos have 3 memory models? 18:37:11 Ah, right. 18:37:44 beach : Aha. So this is why only the car of the list is "immune" to the DELETE ? 18:37:45 Thought it was more? 18:37:55 There's certainly a cross-product effect. 18:38:28 aefkei_: Yes, but (as others pointed out), the standard allows for implementations to not modify any other part of the structure as well. 18:38:50 aefkei_: You'll run into the same problem later with SORT. 18:39:02 So small was between tiny (one segment for everything) and huge (fat pointers, I suppose). 18:39:08 aefkei_: But I think you basically get the idea. 18:39:27 nyef: so what you're saying is that the destructive behavior of DELETE is not semantically sound ? (ie depending on the position of the value that's deleted, won't yield the same results) 18:39:37 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:39:57 htk__ [~htk___@188.3.227.57] has joined #lisp 18:39:59 pkhuong: Right, ISTR the models depending on if segmented ("FAR") pointers were used for code and/or data. 18:40:32 aefkei_: Everything is semantically sound if you do what the standard says you must, i.e., use the return value, and make sure nobody else shares the structure. 18:40:35 aefkei_: Right, the only semantically sound option is to discard any references to the list and just use the version returned from DELETE. 18:40:40 aefkei_: it's seantically sound as long as you respect the contract, which asys that there is no other reference to the input sequence or any of its constituents input sequence. 18:40:57 -input sequence. 18:40:59 pkhuong: Thanks! :) 18:41:26 pkhuong: Anyway, my question stands, what's a good name for this 32-bit-heap, 64-bit-machine-pointer model? 18:41:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:41 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:41:44 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:48 aefkei_: But it helps to have a deeper understanding as to why the standard says that, and I think you got it. 18:41:59 -!- htk__ [~htk___@188.3.227.57] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:17 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 18:42:38 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:43:22 beach: yeah, I think it's a bit clearer now. Thanks all for your patience / support! 18:43:38 aefkei_: Again, it's my job. Good luck! 18:44:00 *Xach* is patient and supportive on a volunteer basis 18:44:36 Xach: Me too, actually, but I can't deny that that's also what my job is about. 18:44:51 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 18:45:16 Xach: And I sometimes feel I am more effective here than when I lecture :( 18:45:24 sykopomp pasted "delete" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95879 18:45:40 I probably did something wrong there, feel free to burn me at the stake. 18:45:57 Sternmull [~kringel@p57AAC162.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:01 burning is too good for you; we shall DELETE you! 18:46:11 nyef: sun's JVM calls them Compressed [object pointers]. 18:46:44 compressed references on jrockit 18:47:09 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-28.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:47:18 Heap-wide, or for particular references? 18:47:28 sykopomp, undefined bats fly out of your nose in all the examples, because you're calling destructive functions on literal data 18:47:45 -!- p8m [~dmm@208.70.147.65] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:52 nyef: it can only be enabled/disabled for the whole JVM. 18:48:09 Hrm... So, compact-heap, maybe? 18:48:20 Although that sortof suggests GC somehow. 18:49:12 compressed-references? 18:49:30 p8m [~dmm@mattli.name] has joined #lisp 18:49:47 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 18:49:57 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:50:15 hard-coded heap-base, I assume? 18:50:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:50:40 We already have a hard-coded heap-base. 18:50:41 Adlai: huh? 18:50:56 maybe you were feeling particularly enterprising. 18:50:57 The actual restriction is that it has to fit entirely within the low two gigs of address space. 18:51:43 eh? 18:52:02 32-bit absolute pointers. 18:52:09 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 18:52:26 Why? Why not 32-bit pointers into a octword-addressed heap? 18:52:43 Umm... Not sure. 18:53:02 Actually, scratch that, it makes the addressing easier. 18:53:06 (well, 29/30 bits, actually) 18:53:19 how do I clear the slime repl buffer in emacs? 18:53:25 Phoodus: C-c M-o 18:53:32 Phoodus: M-x slime-repl-clear-buffer 18:53:45 thanks; it was available on a right-click menu in xemacs, but emacs doesn't have one 18:54:30 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 18:55:34 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:59:05 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:10 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-553-1-28-160.w92-144.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:31 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:31 -!- qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:00:55 slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1C943.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:30 wingless [~awesome@unaffiliated/wingless] has joined #lisp 19:03:45 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:03:53 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:05:33 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:05:57 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:32 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:07:40 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:09:31 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 19:09:36 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-553-1-28-160.w92-144.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:11:39 -!- aefkei_ [~quassel@lagarto.irisa.fr] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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That's what I wanted. 20:22:19 -!- splittist_ [~534d3179@gateway/web/freenode/x-rntgaocowwpjmlse] has quit [Quit: time past] 20:23:54 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:24:09 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:24:18 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:24:58 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 20:26:36 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.13] has joined #lisp 20:26:51 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.26.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:29:40 cmm [~cmm@109.67.26.179] has joined #lisp 20:30:44 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:31:30 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:59 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:43 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:37:10 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-186.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:38:11 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 20:38:38 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 20:39:43 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-28.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:40:33 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:24 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:44:05 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:44:45 When I try to build SBCL from CVS on Mac OSX (multi-threaded), the build succeeds, but the manual build fails. It tries to build a manual section for sb-queue, but there's no contrib/sb-queue... 20:47:07 magius_pendragon [~alokbaika@nom26971d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:47:31 anyone know why sbcl would be giving much less backtrace info? I've already declaimed optimize debug 20:47:42 but for some reason, there's much less backtrace info than I had a few months ago 20:48:35 magius_pendragon: Can you come up with a test case? 20:48:54 tcr: let me see 20:50:05 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:02 magius_pendragon: what platform (now and a few months ago)? 20:51:30 pkhuong: mac os x 10.5.8, sbcl 1.0.35 20:51:41 pkhoung: might have updated sbcl in the meantime 20:52:26 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:01 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:55:19 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:56:05 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:57:24 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:58:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:58:29 tcr: all the examples I'm trying are giving full debugging, which is why I'm really confused right now 20:59:13 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:32 tcr: here's the backtrace I'm getting: http://pastebin.com/y3tpEZEf 21:01:47 -!- milanj [~milan@91.150.119.66] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:02:22 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:05 magius_pendragon: and how do you get that? 21:05:13 pkhuong: that's the problem, there's a lot of source involved, and I can't come up with a smaller example that behaves similarly 21:05:32 magius_pendragon: I'm fairly certain that backtraces have been that way on OS X since about forever. They are much better in 1.0.36 though. 21:05:42 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:53 pkhuong: hmm, I remmebered getting more info. Maybe I'll try it on my linux box and see what happens 21:06:15 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a1d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:18 magius_pendragon: hence my question on the platform a few months ago. 21:06:32 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:06:32 pkhuong: understandable, I could be misremembering. 21:06:43 hello 21:06:56 hi 21:07:44 Does one need to run the SBCL tests (successfully) in order to build the manual? 21:07:45 milanj [~milan@77.46.169.194] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 21:09:31 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:13 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:15:21 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066175.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 21:17:16 Hmm...fround, fceiling, ffloor is kinda odd in a way, well I mean if I way to take say .25 and round it down to .20, those don't seem to work. Is there something else that should be done? 21:19:00 rpg: do you need to update -dP ? 21:19:14 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F34C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:19:58 Krystof: Why yes, I did. Thank you very much. 21:20:06 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441771.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 21:21:31 -!- mereale [mereale@mextli.tomaw.net] has left #lisp 21:21:47 *rpg* has a hard time seeing why anyone wants an update operation that /doesn't/ deliver new subdirectories.... 21:21:53 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066175.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:22:57 rpg, see svn update --depth=... argument 21:23:10 TDT`: Hard to tell. What are you calling and what do you expect? 21:23:22 sometimes, there are directories full of crap that you don't want to fetch. But -dP should have been the default. 21:23:37 Fare: Right. I've definitely tried to /avoid/ getting subdirectories on occasion, but as you say, seems like that should have been the default. 21:24:05 An 'sbcl-update' shell alias seems called for to save me further embarrassment. 21:24:08 anyway, cvs is obsolete nowadays. 21:24:56 just a bit. 21:25:09 pkhuong: Well, seems none of these accept a parameter for what I want the precision to be. If I want up to X significant digits, there doesn't appear to be much that support that. 21:25:22 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:26:10 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:40 mega1_ [~quassel@53d8382e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:26:59 HG` [~HG@xdslav128.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:38 -!- astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:27:54 TDT`: try reading the documentation. 21:28:21 Fare: Nothing that delivers SBCL to me is obsolete ;-) 21:28:59 Fare: if only :( 21:29:01 pkhuong: Been here long enough to have done that before asking. I spent the last half hour or so reading about all the fround,fceling,ffloor - and maybe I'm not getting it. 21:29:04 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d82708.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:29:06 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:29:29 rpg: isn't there a git mirror of sbcl, though? :( 21:30:04 TDT`: what's unclear in "ffloor number &optional divisor => quotient, remainder"? 21:30:07 sykopomp: git. To quote Tom Magliozzi, "Don't get me started!" 21:30:21 <3 git 21:30:28 IRC, sadly, does not transmit a thick Boston accent. 21:30:51 ugh, I can't wait for the day we finally make the switch to Git at work. I absolutely hate CVS. 21:31:13 tic: We use SVN at work, and I use git-svn to hook up to our repo :) 21:31:18 If you're still on cvs, I wouldn't hold my breath 21:31:21 bidirectionally 21:31:25 CVS is lame, but at least it's not *broken* like Perforce (at least at the time I used it last) 21:31:35 pkhuong: Maybe because (ffloor .25 X) no matter what X is will return 0.0 with .25? 21:31:36 Letting Linus tell you how to do source control is like having Mozart tell you how to learn to play the piano. 21:31:40 perforce isn't very broken. 21:31:49 rpg, huh? 21:32:06 Most of us are neither Mozart, nor Linus Torvalds. 21:32:06 rpg: so... it's the best idea ever and we should all do it? 21:32:28 -!- TDT` is now known as TDT 21:32:31 uhh 21:32:38 git isn't rocket science. 21:32:41 by far. 21:32:43 I used perforce probably 5 or so years ago; it ate the repository multiple times, front end tools were buggy and showed incorrect things, tec 21:32:53 I'd hope they'd have fixed those things by now though 21:33:16 "ate the repository" lmfao 21:33:19 that is terrible 21:33:38 yeah, it taught the admin to have proper backups :-P 21:34:04 The cool thing about git is that it's exactly the opposite of rocket science. It's like The Canonical Way(tm) of doing revision control. 21:34:08 the first time it happened, the backups were a few weeks old,a nd lost some work 21:34:15 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslav128.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:23 setting up client workspaces in perforce is a bitch 21:35:25 TDT: (ffloor .25 .2) returns 1.0 for me, since that's the quotient in (/ .25 .2) 21:36:08 meh i've had mixed experiences with git. It works when working, but occaionsally does something that makes you go 'huh?' 21:36:33 some things are not very obvious. 21:37:16 but I haven't found anything I was convinced was better, so I use it for the meantime 21:37:24 it's only for personal use anyway 21:37:48 pkhuong: Yeah, (ffloor .25 .1) returns 2, which kinda does what I want. Ideally I'd like to get .20, but dunno. 21:38:03 TDT: then multiply by .1 again. 21:38:13 And you can even give that operation a name! 21:40:17 pkhuong: ... yeah, I wouldn't have guessed :) I really think truncate would make more sense to support it. 21:40:57 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:41:15 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:41:16 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 21:41:21 TDT: "quotient"... It's also closer to the native operation (round/truncate to an integer). 21:45:15 clojure is a bich to SLIME.. 21:45:39 finally got it to work. 21:46:30 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:46:48 aloso did a SADF 1.6 update, obsoleting my code for finding ASD files and updating the *asdf-registry* 21:46:57 ASDF 21:47:02 mejja [~user@c-52b1e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:26 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:18 new SVCL kerner, nw slime.. new images. (I like sank buildt in) 21:48:22 swank 21:48:47 Younder: shhh 21:48:47 drewc, memo from wgl: shiva has dependency issue libcurl3-gnutils when install git-core. 21:48:48 drewc, memo from wgl: git-core now ok on shiva. 21:49:07 minion: shhhh 21:49:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``shhhh''. 21:49:14 Hey drewc 21:49:26 hey austinh, how goes? 21:49:45 It's going pretty well. I just started using rucksack this morning. 21:50:59 I was wondering, since I have to put my defclass inside a transaction, and with an open rucksack, is it possible to use that same class with multiple rucksacks within the same image? 21:51:11 yes, i do that. 21:51:26 basically you don't actually have to defclass in a with-rucksack 21:52:03 what you do need to do is do the same ... update-indexes and maybe-update-schema IIRC... 21:52:14 I was hoping to provide the path to the rucksack at run-time, so that I can use a separate one for testing, but I wasn't sure how to do that. 21:52:59 austinh: if you can wait until tommorow, i'll be releasing some code that does just that actually. 21:53:29 Blkt [~user@93-33-132-181.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:53:38 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Quit: A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!] 21:53:40 drewc: Ok, I can certainly wait. I do not mind procrastinating on the testing code. Thanks! 21:53:51 -!- ntoll [~ntoll@88-110-171-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: this is not a quit message] 21:53:52 that, unique ids, versioned objects... whole bunch of neat stuff in that package actually :) 21:54:05 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:54:17 I could see versioned objects being useful for my needs. 21:54:59 I had started with Postmodern, but the more I iterated on my requirements, the more I realized that rucksack met many of those needs. 21:55:16 heh, the project i'm on started in postgresql as well 21:57:45 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:09 It was nice to transition to rucksack and delete 20% of my code. 21:58:17 The DB code, that is. 21:58:46 Younder, I'm glad you found ASDF 1.6 useful. 21:58:50 yeah, i've found the actualy reduction closer to 50% in total. 21:58:56 actual* 21:59:19 |Soulman| [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:26 Fare: A quick XCVB question - is there a way to use it for building non-CL code, but where compilation etc. is done by CL image? Like with parenscript. 21:59:33 can rucksack persist structures? 22:00:04 Phoodus: READ and PRINT can persist structures ;) 22:00:50 Phoodus: so all you need to keep object identity is a wrapper... same as it does for conses and vectors etc 22:01:20 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:46 hm, we've got a lot of gensyms, so I doubt I can just seek to transparently persist things anyway 22:01:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:02:02 I just read the overview for rucksack and didn't see structs mentioned 22:02:48 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:03:03 Phoodus: i'm not sure it explicitly supports them, but it would be trivial to add support.. DEFINE-PERSISTENT-STRUCTURE is maybe a 5 line macro. 22:03:20 mustelo [~james@137.165.245.92] has joined #lisp 22:03:20 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:59 -!- enthymene is now known as enth|officeparty 22:04:05 of course, since you're stuck with the extra layer of indirection regardless, it probably makes sense to just use classes. 22:04:14 HG` [~HG@xdslav128.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:41 athlon [~user@0-115-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:43 DEFINE-PERSISTENT-STRUCTURE then becomes a simple wrapper around DEFCLASS and you get all the advantages of using classes. 22:04:43 yep, aren't structures a "degenerate" classes, anyway? 22:04:51 -!- magius_pendragon [~alokbaika@nom26971d.nomadic.ncsu.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:58 nus: yeah, instances of instances of structure-class 22:05:48 drewc: including the consing and softer static typing. 22:06:34 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 pkhuong: we're talking about persistent structures here, we'll be wrapping them in an instance of PERSISTENT-OBJECT anyway... the consing is not the worry. 22:07:05 Hi! I just installed SLIME. After I try to use mwe-color-box (package for syntax highlightening) and emacs says : Symbol's value as variable is void: slime-repl-mode-map 22:07:16 and the static typing is easily added in the DEFINE-STRUCTURE macro 22:08:05 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08:06 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p5DD1C943.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:08:08 athlon: looks like bitrot. 22:08:21 what is bitrot? 22:08:24 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-132-181.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:28 athlon: do you use the slime-repl contrib? 22:08:39 when your program suddenly sucks even though nothing has changed 22:08:45 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:08:49 what is slime-repl cotrib? 22:08:53 athlon: if you leave software in the rain long enough without maintainance, it gets rusty and rotten ;) 22:08:57 enth|officeparty: except the version of every other program it depends on. 22:09:11 Is there a maliciousness-safe Infix->s-expression library? 22:09:14 athlon: put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) into .emacs 22:10:40 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:25 Modius, infix->s-expression? what do you mean? 22:11:46 what is slime-fancy and slime-asdf? why i need to put it to .emacs? I just has (slime-setup) 22:11:54 p_l, in theory yes, in practice, hasn't been implemented yet. 22:12:15 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:12:20 Actually, I'm working (every thursday) on XCVB, and my current work is a refactoring that should make that easier. 22:12:28 nice 22:12:40 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 22:12:43 Something that can take a string that contains loosely algebraic operations (like python/C code) and turn it into s-expression equivalent. 22:12:51 p_l: do you have examples somewhere 22:12:54 ? 22:13:49 Modius: if you *only* want arithmetic expressions, it's not too boring (or difficult) to write. 22:14:08 -!- athlon [~user@0-115-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:31 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:57 you can probably google for examples of it, too 22:14:58 Modius: what's wrong with the usual solutions? (ie INFIX)? 22:15:06 it's a relatively common tutorial problem 22:15:21 drewc: I wouldn't call READ on untrustable input. 22:15:28 Modius, you want a parser IOW, c.f. CL-Yacc 22:16:05 Fare: Well, I wanted to use parenscript for generating JS code that would be used in non-CL environment, with few files containing parenscript code that would go into single JS file then compressed with JS-related tools 22:16:10 pkhuong: no, my neither, but the tokenizer is the easy part, non? 22:16:18 me niether* 22:16:20 bah 22:16:29 neither 22:16:29 first google hit: http://fax.twilightcoders.net/lisp/infix.lisp.html 22:17:01 I asked here first in case someone knew of one specifically written to handle internet-sourced user input. 22:17:04 i.e. secure 22:17:09 p_l: can you give me examples of how it's currently done with ASDF, and/or how you'd like it done with XCVB? 22:17:35 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:39 Modius: many, many times I've asked for various libraries in various languages that are safe (quotad memory, execution time, sandbox the apis, etc). There just isn't much out there like that 22:18:31 but here's some Norvig/Russell code :) http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/lisp/logic/algorithms/infix.lisp 22:18:39 nus: probably overkill (shunting yard or pratt-style top-down operator precedence parsing). 22:19:22 Phoodus: I'd trust the OS to do its job there. Spawn a daemon, open an RPC channel and drop privs. 22:19:38 Phoodus: nice find, they even have the tokenisation function! 22:20:19 the whitespace? function at the bottom really should have used escapes... 22:20:56 Phoodus: it is a bit weird that one, agreed. 22:21:39 pkhuong: for doing lots and lots of untrusted virtual machines, spawning a process per environment is a real load on servers 22:21:39 pkhuong: tdop is a great fit for this IMO... i love that paper. 22:22:06 Phoodus: Tracking memory use would be a bear. 22:22:18 I'm mostly talking about interpreted languages 22:22:25 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@53d8382e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:30 Phoodus: worked with CGI for a long while... 22:23:04 CGI is intended to be fast-exiting processes 22:23:08 Phoodus: and spawning a secure sandboxed virtual maching for each request? 22:23:13 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 22:23:16 so in theory you wouldn't ahve too many existing simultaneously 22:23:23 *Younder* notes that my chatter bot is nominated for the Turing award 22:23:29 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:49 drewc: just an in-image structure initialization? that's much more lightweight 22:24:02 Phoodus: so it's really the number of processes you're worried about, not the spawning itself? 22:24:18 it's not a problem we're dealing with ATM, but something we've hit in the past 22:24:23 basically 22:24:41 long running message-listening script environments with untrusted user code 22:25:24 tried to find existing scripting language implementations that have tough memory & security restrictions 22:25:29 spawn a process only to execute the user code. It's also probably possible to work around issues in SBCL and improve the effectiveness of COW. 22:25:38 Phoodus: Lua might be a good fit. 22:25:42 ie, inability for runaway scripts to tie up the CPU, etc 22:25:48 when we were looking at it, Lua wasn't secure 22:26:22 not secure how? 22:26:35 in terms of a malicious script eating all memory 22:26:50 I don't remember what the execution model was either, if it could tie up the CPU 22:27:06 Fairly certain you can insert your hook in the interpreter and kill the instance. 22:27:29 but anyway, it's a solved problem for us now with our new models, but we couldn't find anything that let us enforce the types of environment we wanted 22:27:31 The runtime is reentrant and supports running multiple instances in the same process. 22:27:41 indeed... i'm pretty sure when i used it you could single step through the interpreter and manipulate the stacks as well 22:27:44 Lua (again, at the time we looked at it), was more intended for developer-written code, not untrusted code running on your boxes 22:28:09 Phoodus, you might be to strict. This is almost ertaily a restiction proble. apparmour might help (Linux) 22:28:51 the problem is, when you authentically need something strict, it's next to impossible to find existing solutions what that as a fundamental basis 22:28:55 Fare: I don't have an example for ASDF, though I heard of one, but I'll try too cook something 22:29:12 did anyone ever know of a mud engine written in lisp? 22:29:49 Phoodus: because it's an impossible problem to solve in the general case, innit... if you want turing completeness, you pay for it :) 22:30:05 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:30:37 drewc: P is awful large. I don't think people are ready to work in (N)L yet either. 22:34:08 wasn't one of the selling points of JAVA that it offered such facilities? 22:34:29 yes, Java has most things sandboxes, except you cannot kill a thread 22:34:33 sandboxed 22:35:23 technically, a thread can block being killed 22:35:50 because a hard kill is "unsafe" and therefore Java doesn't allow it :-P 22:36:51 so a simple scheme interpreter on the jvm, bob's your uncle? 22:37:12 yeah, we looked at stuff like that 22:37:19 but ended up extending our own languages 22:38:27 besides, things like (again) memory are only constrained at the process level, so again there's a heavyweight process per script if you want to memory quota on the per-script level 22:38:37 The process of restricting a process should be at the process level. What files, what permissions. 22:39:06 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:11 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:39:22 It's not someting LUA does. or any other scripting language. 22:39:28 now that we know about Erlang, that might have been a good choice when we needed it 22:40:08 I mentioned apparmour. 22:40:35 That should give adequate protection. 22:42:06 glancing at apparmour, is it only concerned with what OS/filesystem access a process can get? 22:42:34 as I said, we needed things like per-script memory quota, and execution time limitations 22:42:47 saikat [~saikat@ppp-71-139-178-77.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:53 (the latter obviously being the easier one to implement) 22:43:09 speaking of sekooriti... 22:43:29 wasn't it kpreid having fun with E-on-CL? 22:44:33 kpreid, any userbase? 22:44:53 what's the E part of that? 22:45:00 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:16 explosives! 22:45:26 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 22:45:31 http://wiki.erights.org/wiki/E_language 22:48:20 Not sure E considers CPU time/memory as capabilities. 22:50:57 Phoodus: PLT has some interesting sandboxing features. 22:51:27 and you have an execution hook around each function call. 22:51:43 gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:51:45 pkhuong: in PLT? 22:51:50 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:18 yes. 22:52:24 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:25 heh 22:52:46 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:49 -!- rswarbrick [rupert@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:59 It supports hierarchical (so you get to compose untrusted code) resource usage controls too, I think. 22:55:25 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:55 -!- Sternmull [~kringel@p57AAC162.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:37 I'm not entirely sure how bad a thing an execution hook would be, but it doesn't sound like something you want around high-performance code :\ 22:56:47 gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:57:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:57:18 Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.91.158] has joined #lisp 22:58:26 fine, sub-process granularity, sandboxing *and* performance? 22:59:12 I figured as much :P 22:59:17 utopic, but it can be done. 23:00:08 I wonder if there would be a nice way to optionally enable that granularity when the code is compiled, so you can compile sandboxed code that may not perform all that great, but only when you know you want it. 23:00:26 SELinux 23:00:44 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:01:12 if you can not choose your OS then you have to play the cards you have be delt 23:07:46 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 23:08:31 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f661d50-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:13:17 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:23 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:32 nus: E-on-CL is basically a one-man research project, no users reallyy. pkhuong; you are correct, cpu time and memory are not accounted in E. this is arguably something that could be added later (at vat granularity only) 23:15:46 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.80.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:16:04 kpreid, thanks for heads-up. 23:16:28 http://erights.org/elang/concurrency/race.html c.f. timebomb 23:17:06 from a quick glance over, E-kernel semantics allows you pretty much everything 23:17:14 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:18:40 i.e. http://erights.org/elang/kernel/Auditors.html 23:19:02 depends on what you mean by everything 23:19:13 warning: those pages are pretty out of date 23:19:23 e.g. we no longer have any intent to use XML in that role 23:19:37 huh, that one's *really* old, it hasn't been "::" for a long time 23:22:24 I woke up one moring ad discovered i loved perl. 23:22:42 Then I realized it was a nightmare... 23:25:06 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:25:39 kpreid, pretty much everything in terms of isolation and boundary checking. IRL that's probably would depend on whether you get to write the scheduler or not. 23:26:38 well you can do cpu limits on most unixes .. 23:26:58 Younder, it's OK to enjoy nightmares. 23:27:19 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:29 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:27:29 kpreid, rather imagine E-on-movitz 23:27:41 kpreid, how are your vats implemented these days? Can you kill a vat independently from others? 23:28:05 eh, if you're going to do a replace-the-kernel project, do it with a cap system. put some time into CapROS say 23:28:21 CapROS? 23:28:33 it's the fork/continuation of EROS 23:28:44 what did CoyoteOS become? Died after Shapiro joined the dark side? 23:28:48 Fare: no change regarding vats. I've been wanting to work on forking/spawning strategies but haven't got to it. 23:29:08 Yes, Coyotos is dead for lack of people because Shapiro is too busy with whatever he's working on 23:29:50 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 23:30:00 -!- enth|officeparty is now known as enthymene 23:30:02 vats? 23:30:18 sykopomp, you know, to grow humans... 23:30:48 not shoggoths? 23:30:49 :( 23:31:03 Otherwise into the paralell progamming bit. OpenML, RMI, study study study 23:32:04 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:21 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.203] has joined #lisp 23:32:31 Fare: If things go as I hope, I will have slightly more time, and a good bit more brain-space, to spare to work on cap projects 23:32:39 ...this summer. 23:34:07 famous last words 23:34:29 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 23:35:24 :-) 23:35:33 *nus* whistles "Summertime" 23:35:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:37:59 when the living is easy.. 23:38:15 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:59 *Younder* listens to saint siennes organ symphonie 3 23:40:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:42:21 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:43:01 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:43:35 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:44:48 Younder, how dare you desacrate Saint Saens's name? 23:46:09 Fare: it's "desecrate" and "Saëns" 23:46:18 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:17 Fare, ? That apparrt from Carnival des animoux is his most famos work.. 23:50:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:51:23 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:24 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:53:04 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.81.229] has joined #lisp 23:53:32 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:13 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslav128.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:45 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:43 My clhs-fu is weak: consp will only return true on a non-empty list or cons cell, not for nil? 23:56:00 Correct. 23:56:06 A cons is a cons. A list is a cons or nil. 23:56:15 Thus the difference between consp and listp. 23:56:22 and a nil is not a cons 23:56:24 kpreid: huzzah. thanks. 23:56:37 but (car nil) -> nil, (cdr nil) -> nil :)