00:00:38 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:34 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-196.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:04:54 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-172-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:05:26 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-196.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:02 christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:23 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson] 00:14:48 sdkmvx: not many people use sbcl on netbsd 00:16:08 sdkmvx: you should get in touch with Aymeric Vincent - he ported sbcl to netbsd, and IIRC also maintains the port 00:17:56 is he on irc sometimes? or what's his email? 00:18:22 -!- mpasternacki [~user@chello084112070215.10.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:18:24 sdkmvx: you should find his email in the port's makefile 00:18:34 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:18:37 ok 00:18:46 sdkmvx: http://www.labri.fr/perso/vincent/ 00:21:55 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179160040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:23:12 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:31 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24:37 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0AC67.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:25:46 How do I limit the length of output? 00:26:08 I just gave slime a connipition by reading in a too-long xml file 00:26:26 mooglenorph: *print-length* and *print-level* help you control that. 00:26:47 Xach: aha, thank you. 00:30:53 great success! 00:33:44 qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has joined #lisp 00:33:48 (I am getting ready to do coref and stanford parsing on a 10GB ish corpus delivered as SGML files, and the libraries I need to use are all in java) 00:34:59 (since dealing with parsing those in java doesn't appeal to me, I'm seeing about the performance of using lisp to preprocess each document into a seperate plaintext file on-disk, and feeding that into the java libs) 00:36:37 if this works out well, I might write a thing about it 00:37:03 "minimizing contact with effort-heavy languages using the UNIX philosophy" 00:38:38 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:55 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.30] has joined #lisp 00:40:48 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:50 -!- metabug [~metabug@cpe-67-241-10-210.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:44:21 bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:22 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:52:48 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:51 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.225] has joined #lisp 00:56:01 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:01 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:13 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:43 -!- qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:43 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-175.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:57:53 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:46 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-229-176.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:37 -!- mrbug [~user@cpe-67-241-10-210.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:09 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:06:47 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:07:39 "effort-heavy" <-- I like the term 01:08:35 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:16 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:13:21 kqrx_ [~kqrx@c213-89-114-160.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:16:05 uh, i'm thinking of learning lisp, or at least trying it out. i want to install it on a debian machine i access remotely (ssh), but i can't find something simple to do that. my research has made me draw the conclusion that you don't simply "install lisp", but rather need a lot of things to make an interactive environment and so on. is there any direct advantage of using emacs instead of vim when programming in lisp, for example? i am fully cap 01:16:05 to use emacs, but i feel just a little more at home in vim 01:16:40 apt-get install clisp # should be simple enough... 01:16:58 apt-get install sbcl emacs slime # simple too. 01:17:14 don't install slime from apt-get 01:17:27 what's the difference between those two setups? 01:17:43 clisp and sbcl are two different lisp implentations 01:17:47 kqrx_: if you have to ask, then you don't need to know the answer. 01:18:09 yet. 01:19:15 okay, i see, but what would make me pick either one instead of the other, based on something else than which one you listed first? 01:20:09 kqrx_: I prefer clisp. 01:20:20 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:30 okay 01:20:37 that's enough to convince me 01:21:19 kqrx_: it doesn't make a lot of difference, for a beginner. Later you will be able to chose one implementation or another depending on the specific needs of each project. 01:21:46 It's like asking whether you should use gcc, icc, or mvcs to learn C... 01:22:23 oh shit, i thought i knew C and i haven't even thought about whether there exist alternatives to gcc or not 01:22:46 s/(exist)/$1s/ 01:22:48 i guess 01:22:52 kqrx_: do you have a book? 01:22:58 yes, kind of 01:23:00 minion: tell kqrx_ about PCL 01:23:01 kqrx_: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:23:16 will take a look at it 01:23:20 hey, i prefer sbcl! 01:23:32 kqrx_: A lot of material is indexed on http://cliki.net/ 01:25:18 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-177.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:29:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.192.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:27 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:30:35 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:32:01 danlei` [~user@pD9E2E788.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:02 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E788.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:32:08 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 01:33:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.84.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:36:51 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:13 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-177.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:40:07 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-rxmjctpkdejspqrv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:40:07 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 01:40:25 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:42:29 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:04 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 01:45:41 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:14 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:46:50 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 01:48:14 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:54:31 kwinz3 [kwinz@213162070001.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 01:56:58 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-175.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: good night!] 01:58:27 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:55 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@213162070001.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:01:49 konr [~user@201.82.136.22] has joined #lisp 02:04:01 -!- egosh [~Miranda@212.106.46.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:04:34 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:04:50 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:05:18 -!- mtd [~martin@82.68.80.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:09:22 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-132.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:13:06 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:16:41 -!- bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:18:13 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242356783.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:22:01 phf [~user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:04 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:02 i'm trying to get lisppaste running, where can i get webutils? 02:24:49 Axius [~fd@92.84.22.164] has joined #lisp 02:26:19 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-177.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:28:14 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1242356783.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:37 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:32:28 danlei` [~user@pD9E2F05D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:29 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2E788.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:32:34 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 02:33:00 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:23 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:35:37 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:28 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:00 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:45:06 tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:26 gah, how do I say "the function foo takes args bar baz" before I define it so I can avoid warnings? can't seem to hunt down the syntax 02:45:39 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:40 -!- kqrx_ [~kqrx@c213-89-114-160.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 02:45:53 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:27 if that function is in the same file and you compile it with compile-file, there should be no warnings 02:47:01 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:24 sorry, I should have clarified, I'm just using load for now 02:47:46 "sbcl --noinform --load" 02:47:57 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:06 load a fasl 02:48:37 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:49:25 alright, that'll work, thanks 02:49:48 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:57 -!- phf [~user@c-76-124-103-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:50:07 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:50:55 rlwrwp sbcl, the poor mans lisp environment ;) 02:52:51 hrm, does clisp have readline built in? me thinks it does. haven't used clisp in a long time. I think it's the first cl I actually tried, though. 02:53:14 bytecolor: why do you think clips is under GNU GPL? :P 02:54:59 they got the readline bomb :) 02:56:21 -!- brandonedens [~brandon@wsip-70-184-10-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:59:07 on lisp is finally getting interesting around ch18/19 02:59:38 bytecolor: also, rlwrap sbcl isn't worth it, IMHO :D 02:59:42 SLIME ftw 03:00:05 p_l: nod, it's ok for a quicky ;) 03:00:52 *p_l* usually doesn't have to deal with it, when he needs a quick one, readline isn't needed :P 03:01:27 -!- enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 03:04:04 p_l: not everyone can tipe without errors all the time 03:05:48 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:06:01 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:07:57 stassats: who says I don't make typing errors? ;) 03:08:13 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:08:32 who says you do? 03:10:01 oconnore_ [~oconnore@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:14 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:11:12 heh 03:11:46 X selections work well enough for quick stuff that I don't boot complete SLIME for 03:11:46 bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:46 -!- bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:50 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:12:13 well, i don't halt slime 03:16:26 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 03:17:13 -!- Axius [~fd@92.84.22.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:18:13 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:19:33 troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:31 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:28:25 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:49 -!- troussan [~user@c-71-195-63-115.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:09 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-134-25.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:31 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:33:37 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:31 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f72eb41.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:56 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:18 Axius [~fd@92.84.22.164] has joined #lisp 03:42:28 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:43:05 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:43:07 what's your precedence level when you are searching for code in lisp that you don't know about (i.e. you know the behaviour, but not the name, or even if it exists) 03:43:08 ? 03:43:09 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f727528.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:43:23 i.e. google, then cliki, ... etc. 03:43:35 ask here 03:43:42 hah! 03:43:44 great. 03:43:50 now I feel less bad about doing that. 03:44:24 is there a standard way of parsing string dates of the form "2010-02-25 09:44:59,,0" (which come from MSSQL db) into more usable formats? 03:44:44 minion: local-time? 03:44:45 local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 03:44:56 but i don't know about this particular format 03:47:12 thanks stassats. I shall investigate 03:47:43 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:23 brandonedens [~brandon@96.238.16.104] has joined #lisp 03:56:21 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:19 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@c-98-249-209-53.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:00:27 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:42 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:01 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7273.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:09:38 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.64.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:10:13 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:13:46 pjb [~t@95.124.64.51] has joined #lisp 04:14:32 -!- twopoint718 [~chris@adsl-76-233-145-145.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:15:03 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:46 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 04:16:24 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-0-123.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:17:19 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:18:58 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 04:19:09 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 04:20:48 *drewc* would abuse his ops by setting the /topic if he thought anyone cared about hockey!!!!! 04:21:31 everyone who cares already knows 04:21:52 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:54 but not everyone is a fan of Canada team! 04:24:01 *stassats* hopes there would be no op abuse on that matter 04:24:08 *p_l* notes that the channel doesn't have +t mode 04:25:09 metasyntax [~taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:38 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:28:06 -!- Axius [~fd@92.84.22.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:28:20 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:30:16 -!- dys` is now known as dys 04:33:04 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:33:25 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 04:34:02 hmm any reason the static sbcl binary for linux x86 is unithread? 04:34:25 because it was built that way? 04:34:30 vsync: default compilation options, afaik 04:34:43 p_l: not anymoree 04:34:51 stassats: hm? 04:35:01 p_l: yes 04:37:18 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:37:48 airolson [~airolson@CPE002401f23f1d-CM001bd7cbfc18.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:05 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-230-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:59 xinming_ [~hyy@218.73.136.113] has joined #lisp 04:40:34 Good morning! 04:40:55 And it's mailman day. 04:40:55 good morning beach 04:40:57 you're up early 04:41:06 madnificent: Pretty much as usual. 04:42:04 must've been too early for me to notice then 04:42:18 -!- lpolzer [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-206-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:42:34 beach: what is mailman day? 04:43:01 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.75.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:45:05 new month 04:45:26 -!- enthymene is now known as enth|walk 04:45:34 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:45:46 oh right 04:45:51 that's when your mailbox is flooded with remainders of subscriptions to mailing lists 04:46:13 and which can be turned off 04:46:16 stassats: ready for the filters to archive 04:51:01 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:54:04 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zndjebtleamlypvv] has joined #lisp 04:54:06 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lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:20 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:53:40 splittist [~513ef519@gateway/web/freenode/x-cycylvqdkftmxqdg] has joined #lisp 07:53:42 morning 07:54:37 g'mornin 07:55:16 fiveop [~fiveop@e179160253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:58 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.164.40.79] has joined #lisp 07:59:54 -!- basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.117.4.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Quit: basant] 08:00:26 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.183.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:20 poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 08:02:02 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:02:57 addled [~addled@77.208.70.111] has joined #lisp 08:04:26 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-77-172.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 08:07:06 morning 08:08:43 g'night 08:08:53 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 08:09:10 Wraithan [~wraithan@li76-252.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:21 tcr: can I assume all the world's problems have now been thoroughly discussed and basically solved, save for a simple matter of programming? (: 08:11:23 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:48 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:18:01 good morning 08:18:02 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.164.40.79] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:21:51 hello mvilleneuve 08:21:58 hello splittist 08:22:08 etc... 08:23:15 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179160253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 08:25:40 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 08:26:16 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:29:02 splittist: agent murray was missing so crucial details could not be discussed 08:30:34 tcr: I hear he's overrated, anyway. Hope you folks had a good time despite his absence... 08:31:23 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:32:02 more sacher torte for us 08:35:22 perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 08:36:49 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:37:36 addled_ [~addled@77.208.166.2] has joined #lisp 08:38:27 -!- addled [~addled@77.208.70.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:38:27 -!- addled_ is now known as addled 08:47:18 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:48:20 -!- addled [~addled@77.208.166.2] has quit [Quit: addled] 08:50:42 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:51:55 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:09 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:14 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:58:47 reprore [~reprore@EM114-48-199-142.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:59:14 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:01:16 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:01:21 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.192.207] has joined #lisp 09:01:23 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 09:01:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 09:02:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:08:53 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:09:56 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.170] has joined #lisp 09:10:08 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.170] has quit [Client Quit] 09:12:44 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14:33 ziga [~user@89.142.26.250] has joined #lisp 09:14:48 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:56 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106002129a187e9.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:18:13 Hmm. The c4 site doesn't really invite suggestions for articles for other people to write. So I'll do it here! 09:19:25 Xof on Stats for Hackers: Part 1 Frequentism; Part 2 Bayesianism; Part3 Black Swanism 09:20:31 (nigrocygnism?) 09:22:13 Part 4: The Truth, of course 09:22:36 I'll add it to my pile of retirement projects 09:23:06 (: 09:25:14 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:28:27 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:41 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:31:11 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:17 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:41 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:39:47 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:53 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 09:43:47 morning all, it's probably too early for this but it's driving me nuts... 09:43:56 (defmacro mapper (forms) `(mapcar (lambda (f) (funcall f "foo")) ,forms)) ... 09:44:18 (mapper '(list)) => (("foo")) 09:44:49 (let ((my-list (lambda (l) (list l)))) (declare (ignorable my-list)) (mapper '(my-list))) => The function MY-LIST is undefined. 09:45:00 <_3b> why is that a macro? 09:45:13 _3b: it's a learning exercise 09:45:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:45:36 <_3b> well, 'why to use or not use macros' is an important thing to learn :) 09:46:24 _3b in fact this is why I was quoting checks in my with-checks macro the day before yesterday (if you remember) 09:46:37 <_3b> because you don't understand macros? 09:47:24 <_3b> and you apparently don't understand variables and functions for that matter 09:47:56 <_3b> what would you expect (mapper '(foo)) to do? 09:48:10 sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 _3b: I want to pass an arbitrary number of check functions to a macro that performs the checks and defines a couple of lexical variables reflecting the reuslts of the checks which can be used in the body - the above is the nub of the problem I'm having 09:50:04 *_3b* doesn't care what you want... just think about the specific example you are asking about 09:51:43 well in the above, (mapper '(list)) "works" but (mapper '(my-list)) doesn't, the difference being that I define my-list as a lexical variable beforehand 09:52:07 before calling the macro 09:52:42 <_3b> (my-list) is a call to a function... lexical variables are completely irrelevant to that 09:53:48 <_3b> ah, sorry... i'm getting confused again 09:54:23 <_3b> (use lisppaste next time, unformatted code in irc is hard to read) 09:54:42 <_3b> and paste the expansion with it so i don't have to think or expand it myself :p 09:55:04 ok hold on.. you're being extremely helpful (and patient) 09:55:44 <_3b> and don't declare things ignorable if you intend to use them 09:56:34 <_3b> clhs funcall 09:56:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm 09:57:42 <_3b> note the second sentence there: 'if function is a symbol, it is coerced to a function as if by finding its functional value in the global environment' 09:58:15 <_3b> so (funcall 'my-list "foo") ignores lexical variables 09:58:26 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:58:29 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:58:56 sebyte pasted "mapping in macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95768 09:59:01 also 09:59:08 wait, nvm. 09:59:18 basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.117.4.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 09:59:24 damn i forgot the macro expansion 09:59:24 -!- reprore [~reprore@EM114-48-199-142.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:59:30 <_3b> sebyte: don't declare it ignorable if you aren't using it yet... just remove it completely 09:59:40 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:42 <_3b> sebyte: if you can't remove it, you are using it so don't ignore it 10:00:03 reprore_ [~reprore@EM114-48-199-142.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:00:40 _3b it's just for suppressing warning in this simple test sceanrio... later i intend to use the functions in the body 10:00:41 *ZabaQ* is still trying to find the optimal setup for windows lisp hacking 10:00:46 <_3b> (or declare it IGNORE instead so it will warn if you use it when you didn't mean to) 10:01:00 <_3b> sebyte: if you aren't using it, why is it in the example? 10:01:05 ZabaQ: CCL+slime doesn't work? 10:01:07 _3b: hmmm, that's good to know 10:01:10 <_3b> sebyte: isn't the whole point of the example to use it? 10:02:28 _3b well I want the check functions to be used in the macro expansion and in the body the macro will eventually wrap, but for now there is no body, so i'm decalring them ignorbale to suppresss the warnings 10:02:57 -!- c|mell [~cmell@88-96-216-86.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:03:06 <_3b> sebyte: what function is the funcall in the expansion supposed to call? 10:03:10 Ralith: It's not so much the lisp side - it's more the 'C' side. 10:03:21 my-list 10:03:49 <_3b> a global function named my-list, or a function stored in the lexical variable my-list? 10:03:58 the latter 10:04:07 <_3b> the lexical variable you just said you aren't using? 10:04:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:16 yet 10:04:45 i will be using, if i ever figure out how to use it in the macro expansion 10:04:57 <_3b> not using it to say, store a function? or using it for example to provide the function to be called by funcall? 10:05:22 <_3b> (also, are you a native english speaker?) 10:06:25 _3b forget about the ignorable stuff, it's not the point, and yes, I'm a native English speaker :) 10:07:04 ZabaQ: ? 10:07:24 <_3b> sebyte: the point is that if you can't explain what you are trying to do correctly, any suggestions we make will be wrong... like suggetsing you declare it ignorable to get rid of the warning yesterday 10:07:59 <_3b> sebyte: when it turns out you weren't trying to do what you said you were trying to do, and you should have just fixed the warning directly 10:08:17 Ralith: It turns out that something as simple as zlib has to be coaxed into compiling as a .dll with mingw. That isn't really a #lisp problem, though. 10:08:47 ZabaQ: indeed; I don't see how that has a bearing on lisp hacking. 10:08:55 _3b: forgive me, but isn't it quite hard, generally, to explain what code does, or is supposed to do, in plain English? 10:08:55 <_3b> sebyte: specifically, by actually using the variable where you intended to 10:10:01 <_3b> sebyte: if you can't explain it in english, you probably can't explain it to the computer either 10:10:19 _3b I'm going to paste an annotation to yesterday's discussion - it might make more sense, and raises the same issue 10:10:40 <_3b> sebyte: no, it makes sense now 10:11:00 <_3b> sebyte: did you see what i said about funcall earlier? 10:11:22 sebyte annotated #95740 "annotation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95740#1 10:12:17 _3b: yes I did, sort of, - does that mean i'm attempting the impossible? 10:12:36 <_3b> sebyte: no, it means you don't know how QUOTE works (or evaluation in general) 10:13:14 well the quote is needed for mapcar to play nicely, but then funcall won't play :( 10:13:36 <_3b> sebyte: no, it isn't needed for that 10:13:47 <_3b> sebyte: what is needed, is for the macroexpansion to be valid CL 10:14:05 <_3b> sebyte: valid as in not calling non-existant functions, etc 10:14:58 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:16:54 _3b annotated #95768 "current expansion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95768#1 10:17:07 <_3b> ok, that is what your macro expands to currently, right? 10:18:01 <_3b> do you see why that funcall fails, given the bit from the spec earlier? 10:19:44 correct, and yes, so what can I do? I want to be be able to define the check functions 'on-the-fly' so to speak, i.e., I don't want to use defuns everywhere, and why does it work in the first instance, when I'm not using mapcar in the macro? 10:20:21 <_3b> you mean when you passed it '(list)? 10:20:46 (sorry, refering to http://paste.lisp.org/display/95740#1) 10:21:31 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.164.40.24] has joined #lisp 10:21:32 <_3b> what line? not seeing it... 10:21:57 <_3b> ah, you mean macro without mapcar, not mapcar outside macro 10:22:05 top of the annotation is the culmination of yesterday's 'breakthrough' 10:22:07 yes 10:22:29 <_3b> well, what did you pass to funcall in that case? 10:22:44 there i define a lexical variable, bind it to an anonymous fn and funcall the fn in the macro expansion (and it works) 10:23:00 _3b hold on 10:24:20 (funcall ,(car checks)) expanded to chkfn1 which was a lexical variable bound to an anonymous function 10:24:50 <_3b> ok, how is that different from what it expands to now? 10:25:06 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:26:10 well introducing mapcar means the macro argument must be quoted, and this seems to me to make all the difference 10:26:27 <_3b> where does that 'must' come from? 10:27:35 <_3b> clhs mapcar 10:27:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 10:27:50 because if i don't (chkfn1 chkfn2) - the list i want to map over - looks like trying to call chkfn1 with chkfn2 as its argument 10:28:10 sebyte, notice the difference between (quote (x)) and (list x) 10:28:28 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 10:28:34 <_3b> sebyte: it /must/ be a list... that doesn't say anything about /quote/ though 10:28:50 <_3b> or rather it must /evaluate/ to a list 10:29:39 <_3b> a QUOTEd list evaluates to itself, so that is one way to get something that evaluates to a list 10:30:26 <_3b> but the list being QUOTEd is a list of symbols, which isn't what you want 10:31:44 rsynnott_ [rsynnott@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 10:32:33 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 10:32:42 sebyte, if you have a variable x -> 2 does '(x) <==> (list x) ? 10:32:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:34:11 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 10:35:01 jsfb: damn..... that's a good qu, no it doesn't '(2) != (list 2), err.... the latter is unquoted, the former is quoted? 10:35:15 no..... hold on 10:35:36 '(x) is '(x). (list x) is (2). 10:35:43 thank you 10:36:19 now look again at what you did in there 10:36:43 :) i need a cigarette! 10:36:46 i.e. s/x/my-list/ 10:37:04 `(,x) might be useful to think about. 10:39:25 sebyte: '(x) is not '(x) 10:40:41 *sebyte* finds it hard to think in real irc time - the pressure is to great :) 10:40:48 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 10:40:51 too great even 10:41:03 bear with me 10:41:21 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-phzwcwndbmqpjqlu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:41:50 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-boysuqfurdypweei] has joined #lisp 10:41:51 -!- ziga [~user@89.142.26.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:44:25 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-115-171.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:44:54 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:12 so, is there one asdf repo that gets the most attention? 10:49:33 bytecolor: what's an asdf repo? 10:50:20 a place where .asd files can be found ;) 10:51:10 bytecolor: i don't know of anything like that. 10:51:18 ~/lisp/systems/ 10:52:22 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@62.65.193.33.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 10:52:22 that one is pretty popular. 10:54:02 ~/lisp/sbcl/ in my case... bahahah 10:54:17 is asdf _the_ way to install common lisp packages? 10:54:23 no 10:54:34 it can't do such thing at all 10:54:35 it's _the_ way to compile and load them 10:54:47 ok asdf-install 10:55:11 no, nobody likes asdf-install. 10:55:52 is it bork? 10:56:25 why would you put your .asd symlinks in a directory named after an impl? 10:56:45 because I only use sbcl, all my lispy stuff is there 10:57:13 that doesn't make any more sense. 10:57:13 only two subdirs; sbcl and slime 10:57:31 bytecolor: why not just use the default of ~/.sbcl/systems then? 10:58:22 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:58:36 makes sense to me. I'm on a one user system. namely me ;) I put stuff where I want to put it. 10:58:50 ... how do you write "reported error must be in hardware, due to source review not finding the bug" on assesment report? 10:59:14 bytecolor: in that case, why not /asdf/ ? :) 10:59:38 hell, put everything in /! 11:01:08 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:01:59 noooo! I dont touch / ;) ... well that's a lie, I rarely meddle in /etc 11:02:17 but you're on a one user system; you can put stuff where you want to put it1 11:02:18 ! 11:02:54 Im also on a one user sys, thats why I put all in /dev/null 11:03:00 well, there is me, and there is ubuntu. I try to stay out of ubuntu's way 11:06:17 does cmucl still have a large following or have most defected to sbcl? 11:06:37 the latter 11:06:50 bytecolor: CMUCL has been irrelevant for about five years 11:06:58 oh? hrm 11:09:54 carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.223] has joined #lisp 11:10:43 mega1 [~quassel@53d828c5.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:11:47 -!- basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.117.4.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:54 basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.122.221.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 11:15:09 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 11:17:18 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:18:58 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:21:04 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 11:21:50 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@EM114-48-199-142.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:09 is CL Gardens gigamonkey's creation? 11:31:53 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66612e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:34:43 rswarbrick [rupert@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:36:20 qebab [finnrobi@heidi.itea.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:40:02 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 11:40:09 "gardeners", you mean? if so, yes 11:40:10 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:58 oh, nod, that's what I ment 11:43:53 Ralith: sorry, '(x) is (x) 11:44:06 TR2N [email@89.180.200.170] has joined #lisp 11:44:09 sebyte: correct. 11:49:40 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:09:14 lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 12:15:00 <_deepfire> I don't quite understand the cmucl situation, tbh. 12:15:05 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.164.40.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:15:18 <_deepfire> Quite competent people seem to continue working on it. 12:16:14 some competent people are still using windows, go figure! 12:18:38 and formula 1 pilots still use bicycles :D 12:19:12 no wonder, they're more efficient 12:20:08 *attila_lendvai* was also wondering why sbcl didn't attract them... 12:20:15 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:20:23 yo attila 12:20:30 drive home went well? 12:20:44 caught your gf dancing on tables? 12:21:08 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.164.40.24] has joined #lisp 12:22:03 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:06 G'morning all. 12:23:03 tcr, well, i've caught them in a spanish bar... but there was not dancing on the table... :) got back home safely by midnight 12:23:54 Anyone know what's going on with the failing test case clos.impure.lisp / BUG-520366? Reliably fails for me on x86oid linux, seems to have been introduced in 1.0.36.5. 12:24:30 hi nyef 12:26:05 stassats`: just fixed the constantly-asked-for-"switch to...?" bug 12:26:42 the reason was that a function in slime-modeline-string involved slime-connection which queries the user, and the modeline string is updated all fractions of a second.. 12:27:07 hi nyef, and thanks for the sbcl backtrace fixes! 12:27:18 attila_lendvai: You're welcome. 12:27:47 I suppose now you want breakpoints and trace :encapsulate nil to work? 12:28:49 nyef, much appreciated! there are some issues left when i break into threads from slime's thread list... but i can't reproduce it for now, somehow our entire codebase is needed for it. 12:29:07 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-76-237.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:37 snearch [~olaf@e179136155.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:52 (Note that the breakpoint machinery is so thread unsafe it's not funny.) 12:29:53 nyef, well, if we are at wishlists... i'd very much welcome if sbcl had debug info on all the lexical variables in (debug 3)... :) quite often it doesn't have them all, which is rather annoying when the state is hard to reproduce 12:30:41 Look closer: Said lexical variables could well have been eliminated during compilation. 12:30:49 nyef, if you get into fixing trace, here's a small fix: http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl;a=blobdiff;f=src/code/ntrace.lisp;h=6e32b1df2a79f60b0e384a1574937006471cafc0;hp=ce60ee6ca4255c7723741544425863b5bfc8f4f1;hb=b7d7098e0626d701daeaeabc8478a4b22724b366;hpb=57dbd92865c9902e6c1e4c4c75336c37446f9e0c 12:31:19 Eek. Not fixing that bit. 12:32:10 nyef, my usual workaround is to insert a print on that variable so that it remains... but next time i see it i'll slow down and think it through again 12:32:11 I'm about a build and a half away from checking in the start of a fix for lp#309067 though. 12:32:41 (Someone else will have to take it the rest of the way: I don't have an x86oid mac.) 12:32:43 http://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309067 12:34:29 That's the one. See comment number 2. 12:36:42 what is this thing with /src/code/gc.lisp... am i crazy, or the build reindents two #!+gencgc forms in it? 12:37:05 reindents? 12:37:21 You mean we've got more whitespace damage somewhere? 12:37:39 attila_lendvai: my builds from git do that, but not from cvs 12:37:49 Is msvc/Win32 actually a supported for ECL ? 12:37:51 an indent change shows up in my git checkout, which i have reseted several times now 12:38:37 git hooks? 12:38:49 Is this before or after 1.0.35,16? 12:38:58 ZabaQ: yes, that's supposed to be the preferred configuration for Win32. I've only built it with mingw. 12:39:00 stassats`: Wouldn't help: We check in via CVS. 12:39:36 ...although there was an agreement on sbcl10 to switch to git finally 12:39:55 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:04 i think it's delayed due to some git whitespace hook 12:40:11 Oh, joy. 12:41:00 Okay, last build on this patch. 12:42:22 danlei [~user@pD9E2F05D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:40 as far as I'm concerned, it's delayed because it's not clear to me what work actually needs to be done and who is going to do it 12:47:21 I am trying to figure out some of this, by taking a slightly lower-profile project and seeing what needs to be done 12:47:30 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 12:47:33 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:47:36 but that is still a non-copious-spare-time project for me 12:48:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:48:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:48:27 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 12:48:27 tcr1 [~tcr@85-127-96-232.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:48:59 kqrx [~kqrx@c213-89-114-160.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:49:23 -!- kqrx [~kqrx@c213-89-114-160.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 12:50:08 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@84.119.106.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:52:55 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:05 Hrm... I'm not seeing an obvious way to preserve our version-numbering policy this way... 12:54:13 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:56:40 Something must be broken about my git workflow model. 12:58:51 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 12:59:00 hefner: mm. It seems broken 13:00:19 danlei` [~user@pD9E2F05D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:22 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F05D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:00:26 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 13:00:36 hefner: looks like sthing to do with the ECL_INLINE macro 13:03:24 grep doesn't turn it up. 13:04:27 Aha. 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15:15:22 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-124-230.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:15:33 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:56 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:29 For loop, I never used the thereis clause and not finding an example that utilizes what I'm tryign to do. Trying: (let ((s (loop for z in my-list thereis (equal (mod cur-val (car z)) 0)))) ... ), where cur-val is an integer, and my-list is actually an alist. I'm getting a number of errors related to unreachable code. 15:17:03 blitz_ [~blitz@141.76.49.41] has joined #lisp 15:17:14 The only examples of thereis I've seen is when you do something like (loop for z from 0 thereis ...), but nothing when grabbing elements of a list. 15:18:01 what, you are trying to cargo-cult it? 15:18:20 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2F05D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:50 Could be, I was doing a return and a when earlier but that didn't work as well. The goal that I'm trying to do is I'm storing the triangle numbers in an alist format, and in decending order. I want to find the max number that's divisible then exit the loop early. 15:19:57 PissedNumlock [~resteven@134.184.49.32] has joined #lisp 15:20:16 pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has joined #lisp 15:20:26 The algorithm itself took over 24h to compute when I just did a maximize in the loop...I'm trying a lot of things to shorten the execution of loops. 15:21:22 why do you have an alist? 15:21:49 is this an algothithmic question or a syntax one? do you have a clear idea about your algorithm at all? can you formulate it without using loop? 15:22:42 not that there's anything wrong with loop, but it's hard to understand what exactly is the problem here 15:22:52 a thereis clause will cause loop to return nil or t 15:22:58 Well, it's probably easier to give the project euler example I'm trying to solve http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=12 -- Every triangle number I come up with, I'm storing it as an alist. 15:23:00 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-94.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:10 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:23:18 if you've replaced "maximize" by "thereis", you've changed the range of your loop 15:23:38 nil or non-nil 15:24:06 *nyef* notes that SB-POSIX doesn't build on Win32, and hasn't since 1.0.35.10. 15:24:14 If thereis only returns true/nil then yeah that's definitely an issue. I'm wanting to stop execution of the loop once the first car is encountered where the mod is equivalent to 0 15:24:22 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:31 minion, cargo cult? 15:24:32 cargo cult: "They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work." http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html 15:24:45 clhs 6.1.4 15:24:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_ad.htm 15:24:47 maybe you want (loop for z in list maximize (frob z) until (equal (mod cur-val (car z)) 0)))) 15:24:49 Basically trying to not recompute up to that triangle number, since up to that number was already computed and therefore I can just append the lists later on (which is what I do now, before storing) 15:24:57 but also maybe you want to step back and think 15:25:02 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.162] has joined #lisp 15:25:02 when (zerop (mod a b)) return "Hello" 15:25:47 stassats`: yeah, that was my first instinct, I just returned b in that case and but got some other odd issues, I'll try it again. 15:26:04 So, anyone have a clue WTF is up with the EVAL in the macroexpansion for DEFINE-INSTRUCTION-FORMAT? 15:26:15 *hefner* never uses thereis, wonders how many (loop ... finally (return ..))s he could replace 15:27:34 stassats`: could slime-documentation be made to print out the function args (like in emacs) if on functions? 15:27:58 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:18 hefner: yeah, I didn't hear about it either until I started reading up through PCL on the issue 15:28:20 sure it could be 15:28:41 but then, maybe you want slime-describe-symbol 15:30:02 -!- davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:38 stassats`: i think a consistent interface to retrieve documentation would be very desirable. In sbcl, slime-describe-symbol also prints doc-string but not in ccl. 15:31:08 Hmm, could have swore I tried something like that, thanks stassats`. 15:31:13 I have been using slime-documentation and then slime-describe-symbol in order to get a full picture of functions. 15:31:22 leo2007: M-. is consistent 15:32:54 yes, but that's not always desirable. 15:34:34 speaking of loop, I'm trying to work out how to extend sbcl's loop in exciting ways 15:35:01 any things people wish they could loop over but can't? 15:35:50 ... Yes, but it's too application-specific for your purposes. 15:35:53 Krystof: sequences. 15:36:01 groundhog day. 15:36:07 hefner: Heh. 15:37:04 pkhuong: done that 15:38:15 that is, if you thought you couldn't you have been able to (in sbcl) for years 15:38:28 arand [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/arand] has joined #lisp 15:39:04 It's 10:30+ in Waterloo and the AI Challenge results still don't seem to be up. Canadians! 15:39:51 splittist: probably exhausted after celebrating their hockey whatever all night 15:40:24 Krystof: maximising by. 15:40:28 hefner: that's why I gave them a couple of extra hours. 15:40:40 And similarly for thereis and minimising. 15:42:10 nyef: guessing the ugliness for defining insns is to keep needless goop out of the target core 15:42:28 Surely there's a better way, though? 15:42:29 leo2007: ok, i've added arglist display 15:42:33 pkhuong: mm, good point 15:42:33 (however, it's awfully inconvenient if you want to experiment with new insns) 15:42:38 -!- prip [~foo@host163-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:42:46 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:30 not sure what you mean by "thereis x by y", but I can see the point of maximizing x by key 15:43:43 nyef: #!+sb-want-even-more-bloated-core ? 15:43:44 or maybe "using" 15:43:47 Hmm, so I really don't know squat about lisp, but I'm trying to figure out why this happens: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/386365/ with this file: http://paste.ubuntu.com/386366/ 15:43:55 froydnj: I meant instead of using EVAL. 15:44:13 stassats`: thanks. 15:44:37 Any snow leopard users on mac? If so, any luck getting ghc to go via ports? 15:44:38 arand: you probably want to use another implementation to build maxima, ecl or sbcl. 15:44:38 arand: it bitrotted 15:45:07 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:09 wgl: I thought it was still broken. 15:45:24 easyE: That is what I was afraid of. 15:45:26 *easyE* hasn't been able to run darcs for a while. 15:45:45 Krystof: thereis would be convenience. Use a predicate (e.g. oddp) instead of one that returns its input on success. 15:46:07 I'm cc'd on the main ticket, that I "thought" was close to completion. But it seems to have stalled a couple weeks ago. 15:46:10 easyE: So how do you build clbuild? 15:46:21 I don't use clbuild. 15:46:28 wgl: binary install. 15:46:40 Right now, I go to a VitualBox instance to run darcs under FreeBSD. 15:46:56 easyE: you could also wget. 15:46:56 wgl: Clearly, clbuild needs to use cl-darcs. 15:47:11 If I had time, I'd go poking into ghc, but I haven't had anything to spare. 15:47:34 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667a5d-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 15:47:42 Krystof: strided walks across arrays, and "mask", I think is the right name (x_{i-1,j}, x_{i+1,j}, x_{i,j-1} and x_{i,j+1}. for instance). 15:50:18 for i from...to...by without having to specify ahead of time whether you're counting up or down (even better if loop takes care of ordering the range limits correctly) 15:50:27 nyef: So use of cl-darcs to build clbuild would more or less need to be done by hand? 15:50:32 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-104-21.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:50:39 Shh! 15:51:07 ISTR that cl-darcs might be in a darcs repository anyway. 15:51:10 Krystof: parallel for? (: 15:51:17 stassats`: after thinking about this, do you think it is better to move the doc to slime-describe-symbol? 15:51:53 no, slime-describe-symbol does exactly what its name says 15:51:56 pkhuong: It being a debian/ubuntu package, I think I might be limited on what I can really change (and in my case, know how to..), since it's used throughout all package versions I'm assuming it's *supposed* to work 15:51:57 i mean, to make slime-describe-symbol also retrieve the doc string? 15:52:21 clhs describe 15:52:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm 15:52:52 arand: get the source package. 15:53:30 stassats`: ok. 15:55:16 did GCL change something re its ansi flag? 15:55:35 stassats`: I watched two videos on lispworks and it seems its inspector from its ide is smarter than slime. 15:55:56 good for them 15:56:22 pkhuong: huh, some of those are hard 15:56:47 I was all proud of myself for having implement (loop for (quo rem) being the values-lists of (floor x y) ...) 15:57:32 how can SBCL simultaneously be the most annoyingly pedantic and most progressive in extending ANSI CL? 15:58:05 hefner: use the package system (: 15:58:11 hefner: Practice! 15:58:36 prip [~foo@host2-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:59:20 hefner: there are many ways to annoy! 15:59:29 Okay, one last build on this and I can commit ud2-breakpoints-for-win32. 15:59:48 nyef: so I am thinking that I can use a non-snow leopard mac to get all the source necessary for clbuild, etc, then rsync the directory over to the snow leopard mac, no? 16:00:08 stassats`: although I have no personal experience with lispworks. Do you think slime-inspect can be smarter? For example if I give it a class name or package name. 16:00:10 wgl: that will obviously work 16:00:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:00:47 *nyef* uses clbuild for two things, neither with sufficient frequency to actually care about the tools involved. 16:00:49 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:00:58 leo2007: well, it will work them already 16:01:29 and yes, nothing stops someone from improving slime inspector 16:01:35 cmm: cool, thought so, thanks 16:02:44 stassats`: really? for me it only works if I feed (find-class 'someclass) to slime-inspect. 16:03:01 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:03:26 really 16:03:58 do you have slime-fancy-inspector contrib loaded? 16:04:05 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:04:11 (it's included in slime-fancy meta-contrib) 16:04:40 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:08:03 I think i do since I have this (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-banner slime-asdf slime-indentation)) 16:08:30 then "you're doing it wrong" 16:08:40 wasn't there some slime-inspector dwim thing that you need to use? 16:09:00 for example if I type 'C-c I' and type in a class name: 'xyz, it inspect the symbol xyz instead not the class. 16:09:22 only if i type (find-class 'xyz) will it inspect the class. 16:09:41 leo2007, when it's inspecting the symbol, isn't there an option to inspect the class? 16:09:53 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:10:05 that's exactly how lispworks behaves 16:10:11 It names the class STANDARD-CLASS [remove] 16:10:18 then you can click on ^ 16:10:27 Adlai: ahh, there is. 16:11:07 excellent. 16:11:30 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:37 see, zero cost smartness improvement 16:11:54 pkhuong: Thanks for your help, found a bug which pretty much says "builds when uploaded, but not locally, but let's ignore that for now" *sigh* 16:12:09 ;) 16:12:28 mejja [~user@c-52b1e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:12:41 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:13:26 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@141.76.49.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:08 stassats` and Adlai: many thanks. 16:15:34 hm, nikodemus is feeling less burned out 16:15:46 hibernation over 16:16:21 Hello Xach. 16:16:36 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754a3f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:54 hi nyef 16:17:02 i meant nikodemus's hibernation. 16:21:13 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:16 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:21 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:50 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:02 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:30:20 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 16:31:23 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:32:02 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:34 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn141.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 16:34:24 Okay, now I think I really am done with ud2-breakpoints. 16:34:51 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:35:12 nyef: so, do you think we could use that to implement interrupt-thread and everything? (: 16:35:22 Umm... what? 16:36:13 insert a breakpoint at known safe points, when we want to GC or what not, instead of interrupting in some random place. 16:36:35 Ah. 16:36:43 We always could have, modulo alien code. 16:37:22 didn't work that well on darwin, though. 16:38:36 Darwin is junk, apparently. 16:39:18 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:39:26 yeah, "apparently". 16:40:03 basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.125.182.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 16:40:23 snuffik15 [~rafal@aajt50.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:40:37 -!- snuffik15 [~rafal@aajt50.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:41:58 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:38 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:43:49 -!- mejja is now known as offby42 16:44:07 -!- offby42 is now known as mejja 16:45:31 hello, I need quoted printable encoding, is there a function for that somewhere? Cl-ppcre includes one, but that is too simple (ie, not working correctly). 16:46:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:46:31 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:47:21 ignotus: i don't think i've heard of one 16:47:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:47:43 ... It's the sort of thing I'd expect to see in mel-base or similar package, though, as it deals with email 16:48:10 Xach: ah, I've just found this: http://www.cliki.net/cl-qprint 16:49:39 ignotus: cool! 16:50:44 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Am I missing an eyebrow?] 16:51:17 Xach: it seems to be working properly, cool indeed:) 16:51:46 fiveop [~fiveop@e179160253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:40 The folks in Waterloo are cutting it fine to get something up 'Monday morning'... 16:57:20 Maybe it's monday morning, GMT-11? 16:57:42 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:58:29 Right, the UWaterloo Suva campus 16:58:43 -!- ecstasy [~tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has left #lisp 16:59:02 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-82.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:26 Presumably they're busy 'optimising' the Final Round to ensure C++, Java, Python and Go dominate... 17:00:05 Can we demand equal time for Checkers, Chess and Shogi? 17:01:16 What happened to xiangqi? :) 17:04:15 what's John Fremlin's nick again? 17:04:16 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 17:04:29 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 I quite like go -- I hope it will compete nicely with C/C++/python. 17:05:19 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:06:11 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DE2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:06:49 mathrick pasted "MACROEXPAND-DAMMIT bug" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95785 17:07:01 nyef: d_ino isn't supported on win32? boo. 17:09:04 It might be, but this was the easiest way to restore buildability. 17:09:04 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:09:28 Besides, since when did the inode concept even -apply- to FAT filesystems without egregious hacks? 17:09:43 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DE2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:44 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:10:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.162] has left #lisp 17:10:57 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:32 nyef: yea but it's just as not-applicable on FAT filesystems on linux 17:11:38 nyef: and nobody uses FAT for windows anymore 17:12:05 nyef: hm. I checked MSDN for d_ino availability; maybe I got the wrong headers or bad information 17:12:46 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:13:38 froydnj: Alternately, my environment is old, or something similar. 17:13:46 Is there a standard way to remove an item from an a-list (or do I just role my own)? 17:13:53 s/role/roll/ 17:13:57 smanek: REMOVE is one way 17:14:26 (setf alist (remove key alist :key #'car)) ; f'rinstance 17:14:49 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 17:15:13 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:16:07 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:48 froydnj: Anyway, killing it on win32 was the easiest way to restore buildability, which was my goal. 17:17:09 Aynone have any CL code for parsing mbox? 17:17:19 gigamonkey: sort of. 17:17:35 gigamonkey: ... Something in mel-base, maybe? 17:17:48 gigamonkey: just uses make-string-output-stream as a buffer and flushes it out on "^From" lines. 17:17:55 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:18:22 Xach: ... As a regexp, not a literal line beginning? 17:18:38 nyef: yeah. but not with a regexp. 17:18:51 Oh, wait, I'm mixing it up with ">From" lines. 17:19:02 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:25 Xach: Thanks 17:19:33 Xach: so that breaks it into message chunks but does no further parsing obviously. Which may be fine. 17:19:40 *Xach* did this as part of the erik naggum cll archive, which crawled through a hundreds-of-megabytes mbox-ish file 17:19:58 gigamonkey: i have some stuff to turn rfc822-style headers into an alist, too, but it's not as short of an idea. 17:20:40 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:45 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-bphoyelhmskhogwa] has joined #lisp 17:21:17 -!- raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:35 Now that I think of it, I'm going to ask again: Does anyone know why I'm getting a test failure on x86oid linux for clos.impure.lisp / BUG-520366 ? 17:22:13 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:23:22 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-177-77.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 17:25:30 nyef: 1.0.36.5? 17:25:31 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-28-248.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:25:57 Yeah. 17:27:30 -!- pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:27:40 Oh. 17:28:13 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:28:20 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 17:28:33 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-3-234.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:28:35 Nevermind, I found it. 17:28:57 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-124-230.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:29:59 -!- splittist [~513ef519@gateway/web/freenode/x-cycylvqdkftmxqdg] has quit [Quit: No AI, no me] 17:31:12 milanj [~milan@109.93.103.126] has joined #lisp 17:31:13 *mathrick* hates bugs resulting from CDR being used when SECOND is what was meant 17:31:25 -!- arand [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/arand] has left #lisp 17:31:30 gigamonkey: do you still gather errata for Coders at Work? 17:31:37 I'm only now finishing reading it 17:32:53 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:17 litherp2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 17:36:09 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:36:20 sledge__ [~sledge@24.235.36.231] has joined #lisp 17:37:35 ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-225-200-88.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:27 -!- litherp2_ is now known as lithper2_ 17:39:21 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:40:01 -!- sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:40:55 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:41:26 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:41:31 -!- ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-225-200-88.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:41:32 _ace4016_ [~dante4016@adsl-225-200-88.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:54 -!- ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:11 mathrick: always. 17:45:23 Email them to me is best. 17:45:41 gigamonkey: good. The Kunth chapter has a load of typographical errors 17:45:48 I dunno why, but it's very visible 17:45:55 mathrick: "Knuth"? :-) 17:46:01 yes, that 17:46:05 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:46:10 also I didn't expect Knuth to be so... casual 17:46:12 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 17:47:05 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:31 gigamonkey: Was there a bias toward putting younger people toward the front? Reading serially, my attention wandered after a few consecutive chapters of "who the hell is this guy?" 17:47:35 and it never occured to me that he was basically a young academic with no experience before he started TAOCP 17:48:21 hefner: it makes sense, if you consider that Knuth for example is referred to by every prior chapter 17:49:26 and that Cosell's interview refers to Fran Allen's one, so the typographical order matches the logical one 17:49:43 hefner: I did arrange things basically by age. (Except Zawinski and Fitzpatrick got swapped because Fitzpatrick curses too much and because Zawinski actually mentions Fitzpatrick at the end of his interview.) 17:50:04 heh 17:50:04 Knuth sort of had to get the last word. 17:50:17 yeah, it'd be odd to have it differently 17:50:28 gigamonkey: the first few interviews do seem to segue in a vaguely logical way 17:50:37 And then I put things in a bit of an order to let the debate unfold. Crockford talked some smack about Eich so I let Eich go after Crockford. 17:50:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:51:02 gigamonkey: you did two physical sessions with everyone, right? 17:51:22 hefner: I'm sure there are readers who have the opposite reaction: they read for a while saying, yeah, yeah. And then mid book they start saying, "who the hell is this guy?" 17:51:27 mathrick: two or three. 17:52:01 gigamonkey: how much of what you've recorded would actually go into print? 17:52:29 gigamonkey: I solve it by going "who the hell" on both ends :) 17:52:38 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 mathrick: about 1/3 17:53:10 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-159-155.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:53:39 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:44 I see 17:53:45 Can somebody please just write a mail client that puts all my mail in a SQL database. k'thanx. 17:54:04 gigamonkey: did you ever consider arthur whitney for the book? 17:54:26 i nominated him but it was late in the game. the man is a genius. 17:54:29 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:43 gruseom: Yeah. Maybe for Code Quarterly. ;-) 17:54:44 -!- sledge__ is now known as sledge 17:54:53 I read a nice interview with him somewhere 17:54:54 -!- sledge [~sledge@24.235.36.231] has quit [Changing host] 17:54:54 sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 17:54:57 but I can't remember where 17:55:17 gigamonkey: that's a great idea, actually. 17:55:25 mathrick: ACM Queue is the one i saw 17:55:44 that's very probable 17:56:39 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 17:56:55 lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 17:56:55 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:56:55 -!- lemonodor_ is now known as lemonodor 17:59:50 -!- fujin [~aj@60-234-156-8.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:00:30 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has joined #lisp 18:05:25 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:05:37 marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has joined #lisp 18:06:49 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:06:51 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B9B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:31 egosh [~Miranda@212.106.59.213] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-3-234.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:09:20 -!- mejja [~user@c-52b1e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 18:10:16 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082FEB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:11:39 fujin [~aj@60-234-156-8.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 18:15:10 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:31 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 18:15:48 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:16:12 arkrost [~aravan@92-100-163-80.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:17:26 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-94.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:19:17 Hi! I'm looking throug sbcl source, but I can't find files containing realization of these functions: defvar, defun,set-dispatch-macro-character, set-macro-character. Can someone tell me where I should look them for? 18:19:41 defun is in src/code/defboot.lisp, I believe. 18:19:50 defvar the same. 18:20:15 set-macro-character is in src/code/reader.lisp. 18:20:17 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 18:20:22 arkrost: M-. in slime will help find them. 18:20:29 And your navigation hint for today is DESCRIBE. 18:20:38 As in, (describe 'set-dispatch-macro-character). 18:20:52 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 18:20:54 Your second navigation hint is creative use of grep. 18:21:10 and/or ack, which is programmer's grep 18:21:26 advantage of being much smarter, disadvantage of not being integrated with emacs 18:21:31 arkrost: M-. works for most of them. 18:21:42 Thanks 18:21:47 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22:04 There are some fun things in the source that you -can't- find this way, though, as I found out last night. 18:22:53 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:55 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.103] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 18:24:11 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has left #lisp 18:24:59 c|mell: http://paste.lisp.org/display/95785 18:25:50 c|mell: apologies for the large size, but it boils down to MACROEXPAND-DAMMIT claiming the body inside innermost LET is NIL whereas MACROEXPAND-ALL shows the expected source 18:26:04 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.164.40.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:06 Also can someone explain difference in using block/return-from catch/throw go/tagbody or just tell me where I can read about it 18:27:16 clhs block 18:27:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_block.htm 18:27:27 Baker has the best explanation, I think. 18:28:03 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 18:28:06 what is "Baker"? 18:28:19 ok 18:28:21 Henry Baker. 18:28:45 nyef: that's a bit dense for someone who doesn't understand them yet 18:28:47 IMHO 18:28:58 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-51-28.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:29:03 ... I guess. 18:29:51 hmm..and what book you can recommend to start with? 18:30:46 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:30:50 minion: tell arkrost about PCL 18:30:50 arkrost: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:30:53 As far as actual -use- goes, you use tagbody/go when you'd otherwise use a goto, block/return-from when you just need an early return within a lexical context, and catch/throw when you'd have used block/return-from if you weren't working with lexically separate functions. 18:31:55 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 18:31:57 arkrost: catch/throw is similar to exceptions in other languages. 18:32:39 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:32:41 ... Vaguely similar. 18:32:46 re moin ing 18:33:10 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:43 Actually, would the handler-case / signal <=> C++ exception handling explanation be a good one to start with for new users? 18:34:24 yes, but then it might make it harder to grasp non-unwinding handlers 18:34:36 PCL goes down that route in any case 18:34:50 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 18:35:14 actually the PCL chapter on conditions is really good, it shows with clear examples where exceptions fail and conditions work 18:35:25 Fair enough. 18:36:19 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:29 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-157-113.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:04 Hrm... Seems like most of the high-priority bugs require a good understanding of the compiler, an intel mac, or both. 18:39:21 The other one requires making serve-event not suck on windows. 18:41:25 folks, see you on Wed. 18:41:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: home] 18:42:08 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: time to go home] 18:42:45 Thanks for help. Bye... 18:42:51 -!- arkrost [~aravan@92-100-163-80.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 18:43:56 hi mathrick, thanks i'll check it out 18:47:17 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@62.65.193.33.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:47:27 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:15 hi, I'm writing a SIMPLE-TYPE-OF function which returns 'INTEGER instead of '(INTEGER 0 536870911). am I rewriting a standard function or is there a nicer way to do this than a big TYPECASE? 18:49:45 class-of ? 18:50:12 Hrm... Not quite, I see... 18:51:08 How about (class-name (class-of XXX))? 18:51:48 nyef: that might work, thanks 18:52:15 -!- _ace4016_ [~dante4016@adsl-225-200-88.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:52:26 although, for things like a list, I get CONS, and for an integer I get FIXNUM, but that might be fine 18:52:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Quit: going to moon brb] 18:53:47 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:55:06 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 18:55:13 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:30 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:57:12 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:31 ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-10-197-153.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:11 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:02:54 gonzojive_ [~red@c-76-21-113-242.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 egn: are you aware that types form a lattice and that objects are in general of an infinite number of different types? 19:03:51 pjb: but you can write an surjection from that lattice to a coarser, finite, lattice. 19:03:54 egn: it may be good for your needs to produce INTEGER for 2 or 1314124131, but it is in theory not more valid than (integer ) or T or any other type of the value. 19:04:32 Sure. The question is whether it's useful ot have a coarser lattice, and whether T is not fine enough :-) 19:04:54 pjb: clearly, the answer is, respectively, yes and no. 19:05:38 Depends what for. 19:05:42 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-76-18-86-163.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:05:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 19:06:59 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.223] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:52 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 19:13:41 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:35 ^boris [syztm@god.vs.the-devil.org] has joined #lisp 19:15:08 pjb: I wasn't aware. I'm using it to serialize to JSON, so I need some simple typing to determine whether to double-quote values, and also to type them so that I can correctly deserialize them on the lisp side when JSON can't handle that type (ie. {"TYPE":"SYMBOL","VALUE":"FOO"}) 19:15:21 kzar [~kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:15:36 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:15:54 I'm not sure if that makes things clearer.. I didn't fully understand your response 19:16:50 Well, you need to map the lisp types to JSON types, but to do so you cannot use type-of, but rather check for the lisp types you expect. 19:17:06 That is, see it from the JSON point of view, and define in lisp the JSON types. 19:17:28 egn: ETYPECASE, or a generic function, is likely appropriate 19:17:35 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:17:48 Exactly. 19:17:49 -!- ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-10-197-153.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:17:53 egn: are you aware of st-json? it's a pretty complete (and well-tested) json serializer/deserializer library 19:17:58 pjb: kpreid: okay, yeah that's pretty much what I'm trying to do. It probably should be JSON-TYPE-OF instead of SIMPLE-TYPE-OF 19:18:14 i'd prefer a generic function over an etypecase for this use 19:18:15 egn: if you use TYPECASE or a generic function, then there is no TYPE-OF involved at all 19:18:17 antifuchs: I'm using yason, but it doesn't do exactly what I want it to. I'll check that out 19:18:33 for one, st-json is the only one I tested that does float printing right (: 19:18:43 antifuchs: heh! 19:19:38 btw, JSON very deliberately *does not say* anything about whether floats and integers are distinct. 19:20:22 yeah, I think I'll pass a "TYPE":"FLOAT" or "TYPE":"INTEGER" to disambiguate on the lisp side 19:21:21 dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:21 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:33 -!- dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:40 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-177-77.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:22:58 ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-10-111-14.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:29 slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B250.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:45 egn: that meaans: (etypecase v (integer "INTEGER") (real "FLOAT") ...) 19:30:09 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:22 Notice that the order of the clauses in typecase matters, since REAL is a supertype of INTEGER. Notice also that REAL includes RATIO. 19:33:18 anyone know of a lib or framework that lets you manipulate (lisp) web objects in a WYSISWG kind of a fashion? i think js & co are a needed, but maybe there already are lisp wrappers for this? 19:33:39 hypno: lisp on lines does this. 19:34:17 drewc: oh! sounds great. thank you. :) 19:35:08 pjb: excellent, thanks 19:36:43 sebyte annotated #95768 "List me, don't quote me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95768#2 19:38:06 -!- egosh [~Miranda@212.106.59.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:40:29 -!- ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-10-111-14.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:41:37 sebyte: what exactly are you trying to do? why is that a macro at all? 19:42:37 -!- rsynnott_ [rsynnott@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:42:51 it's a long story :) essentially an extended learning exercise, but it does (hopefully) have a practical application. 19:42:52 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:45:19 sebyte: ok, well... function-mapper should be a function and not a macro. As easy way to tell is : "If you are evaluating all your arguments, chances are it's not supposed to be a macro" 19:46:22 ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-10-135-121.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:23 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:46 drewc: as it stands, yes, absolutely, but the full version of the macro, does more than that, i.e., it wraps a body, binds a couple of lexical variables which are used in the body, and the lexical variables, holding anonymous functions are also used in the body - I took all that stuff out, to try and pin down where I was going wrong in thinking, i.e. why I couldn't get it to work 19:51:13 that said, your rule of thumb is no doubt a very useful tip, thanks 19:51:40 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:16 sebyte: well, what's the full macro supposed to do that can't be done functionally? Regardless, your macros should usual be a thin layer of syntax over a functional interface.... if you can show me more i might be able to show you a 'better' way (fsvo better, ymmv, etc). 19:53:58 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 19:55:09 (also, making macros is language design... redesigning the language before you understand it is possibly not the best way to learn. I'm not saying this is true for you, just sayin' :) ) 19:55:14 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 19:58:52 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:59:01 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 19:59:15 I'm not thinking in terms of language design, purely in terms of convenience and avoidance of duplication of code, (and of course I'm stubbornly doing things my way because, in my experience, that's the way I learn best, or should I say, at all :) 19:59:58 drewc: vng and maus seem to be waiting for a reply from a cl.net admin wrt their accounts. Is there a problem that I should tell them about? 20:00:45 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.26.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:01:04 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-26-179.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:44 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:05:14 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:05:19 drewc: by the way, what's 'fsvo' short for? haven't come across that one before. 20:05:27 sebyte: for some value of. 20:05:38 ah 20:06:08 As I suspected, a bunch of C++ bubbles to the top at the last moment... 20:06:38 hi mathrick, seems my last update to macroexpand-dammit broke the macrolets :( doh -- new one at http://john.freml.in/static-blog/macroexpand-dammit/macroexpand-dammit.lisp 20:07:52 c|mell: lemme test 20:09:02 sebyte: functions are for avoiding duplication of code, macros are for syntax, and syntax is language design. Thus. i suggest to you that doing things 'your way' is not only not helping you learn lisp, but actually doing harm! However, if doing things in your own incorrect and idiosyncratic way is you goal, and not writing useful programs or learning lisp, then more power to you. 20:09:52 (or: maybe the way you've always done things isn't the best way to do things, and learning a new way might be worthwile :)) 20:09:59 beach: i'll check 20:10:01 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:10:04 twopoint718 [~chris@76.210.76.211] has joined #lisp 20:10:49 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:11:12 does anyone have "Definition Groups: Making Sources Into First-Class Objects" by Bobrow et al. as a pdf/ps? I can't find it anywhere :( 20:11:12 drewc: OK, I'm not so stubborn as to turn down a valuable offer of assistance (and learning) as this. could I email you off-channel though? 20:11:52 sebyte: you bet: drewc@tech.coop . I cannot promise as prompt a reply as it would be in the channel, but i will reply. 20:12:08 -!- Wraithan is now known as H4ck3rM4s73r 20:12:25 thanks a lot, I'll try and draft an email this evening :) 20:13:31 -!- H4ck3rM4s73r is now known as ___Wraithan___ 20:13:46 -!- ___Wraithan___ is now known as __]Wraithan]__ 20:13:51 -!- __]Wraithan]__ is now known as __[Wraithan]__ 20:14:50 -!- __[Wraithan]__ is now known as |_[Wraithan]_| 20:14:50 splittist: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~pz215/papers/connect4.pdf 20:14:55 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 20:15:30 yeah that was for a competition i ran :) 20:15:38 i wasn't expecting them to use the rules like that 20:15:46 sebyte, I think a good simple example of macros as syntax is DOLIST, which is basically a syntax layer over MAPC 20:16:06 -!- |_[Wraithan]_| is now known as axion 20:16:08 -!- axion is now known as wraithan 20:16:13 -!- wraithan is now known as Wraithan 20:16:24 ("basically" because there's also the &optional result) 20:17:09 Adlai: plus the implicit tagbody, so it's really a layer over DO. 20:17:47 pkhuong, true, there's also that 20:18:54 beach: AFAICT, the users were added on saturday, login information was sent to their email addresses, and they are members of the sudoku group. 20:19:15 Adlai: noted 20:19:16 Wraithan: have you finished? 20:19:24 beach: am i missing any requests for something else, or ?? 20:20:10 Krystof: was playing around in another channel, if you are going to get all pissy about it I can leave. I didn't know people who would get bothered by that would leave them on. 20:20:16 Adlai: no, dolist is not mapc at all unless you ignore a lot of significantly important details about dolist 20:20:22 -!- Wraithan [~wraithan@li76-252.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 20:20:48 Adlai: "The body of dolist is like a tagbody. It consists of a series of tags and statements." 20:20:49 -!- kzar [~kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:00 Adlai: try that with MAPC :P 20:21:11 drewc, yes, I'm ignoring those details to give a simple example of macros as syntax vs high-order functions 20:21:12 c|mell: huh, we overlapped at Cambridge 20:21:40 drewc: are there any examples of this? the documentation on LoL do not seem to mention this usage in particular, or are the support in some dependcy? (i'm look for similiar functionality provided by "riot" or Magnolia-CMS) 20:21:42 also: no-one expects Computer Security 20:21:54 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 20:22:12 we checked and failed to realise that connect4 had been solved 20:22:25 hypno: i have no idea what those things are, but LoL is not a CMS, so probably not what you are looking for. 20:23:14 ok. 20:23:19 Adlai: if DOLIST were just a layer over MAPC, it would be an example of a terrible macro that should never have been written. 20:24:03 (mapc (lambda (x) (tagbody ...)) list) 20:24:10 Adlai: which is my point really.... a macro should do something more than is possible with a simple function.... otherwise a function will do fine! :) 20:24:12 ok, different example -- with-open-file as a simple layer over call-with-open-file 20:25:10 slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:26 one could reasonably argue that with-open-file should not have been a macro, imo.. i think it's one of the worst examples of a macro because all it really does is hide a lambda. And the fact that it's _not_ a simple layer over call-with-open-file is a design flaw in CL, again IMNSHO. 20:26:49 that said, the opposing argument is that the lambda is an implementation detail 20:26:58 and _should_ be hidden. 20:27:00 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-51-28.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:27:06 I can accept this view, but i don't have to like it. 20:27:16 I'd like both with-open-file and call-with-open-file and don't really care which one is "primitive", or whether both are 20:27:42 Heh. Just found a WHN comment from 2001 suggesting that "marsh faerie spirits" are responsible for maintaining the invariant that the two components of a complex are always coerced to be of the same type. 20:27:56 well, i care... defclass vs ensure-class is probably a better example. 20:27:56 drewc: OK, thanks! 20:28:03 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-37-181.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:28:25 beach: no worries... they might have just missed the setup emails.. if they are not familiar with GPG it might just have looked like SPAM 20:28:51 drewc: That sounds plausible. I'll let you know if there is an problem. 20:29:05 drewc: Thanks again! Excellent work! 20:29:20 beach: hans did all the heavy lifting :) 20:29:39 nyef: lovely 20:29:52 drewc: I count on you to transmit the congratulations! 20:30:31 beach: you got it :) 20:31:48 c|mell, why does macroexpand-dammit have a function named e and a macro named m ? 20:32:52 User971 [~User@70-88-163-233-nm.albuq.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:08 -!- User971 [~User@70-88-163-233-nm.albuq.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:12 jack305 [~jack@70-88-163-233-nm.albuq.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:16 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 20:35:36 Adlai, historical reasons :) it's how i repl developed it :) 20:36:20 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:37:09 Krystof: interesting. 20:37:52 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: And now to read it properly...] 20:38:27 drewc, we have a (def with-macro with-foo ...) that defines both a call-with... function and a thin layer of macro above it. it's your turn to decide wether to hate it for the syntax... :) 20:39:50 attila_lendvai: Does it have an option to define a with-macro that's backed by a generic function? 20:40:41 nyef, i don't know what you mean. it could have a few more options, but we havent 20:40:50 bah, it's dark here :) 20:40:53 (That's actually about the only place I've seen the with-foo / call-with-foo thing explicitly: When the underlying function is a GF, so that it can be customized a bit.) 20:41:39 nyef, it's very good for backtraces and redefinitions. generated code size is also in the picture 20:41:44 -!- jack305 [~jack@70-88-163-233-nm.albuq.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42:01 Mmm... But that's an implementation detail, not anything really semantically significant. 20:43:04 well, it is, but a pleasant one... 20:44:33 And don't let me slam implementation details, either, particularly backtraces. After some of my recent commits (though not -today's- commits) I wouldn't have much of a valid argument. 20:44:59 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:45:25 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:05 hello 20:47:30 *attila_lendvai* turnes to a movie (district 9) 20:47:34 attila_lendvai: can i dislike the name "def with-macro" instead? :D 20:47:58 i like the idea actually, i've considered a similar approach myself. 20:48:11 good movie! enjoy 20:48:37 not as good as Avatar 20:50:57 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:51:06 Dances With Smurfs is definitely an awesome and standard setting movie, just like Waterworld 20:52:05 .. 20:52:27 Adamant: Words fail me. That was awesome! 20:53:05 nyef: I swing and miss a lot. sometimes I hit. 20:53:36 with optimizations on, SBCL whines that #'member doesn't know whether or not it's (or fixnum (not number)) 20:53:47 I can literally ahve anything in there; how do I let SBCL know that? 20:54:11 ... "(or fixnum (not number))"? 20:54:27 Is that "those things which are both EQ and EQL"? 20:54:27 I presume that it doesn't want to support bignumber 20:54:56 It's the extra cost for dealing with numeric equality. 20:55:46 right, how can I prevent the note? 20:55:53 letting it know that yes, it can be anything 20:56:00 I tried (member (the t ..) list) 20:56:31 you can (declare (sb-ext:muffle-condition sb-ext:compiler-note)) around the call to member 20:56:55 I don't have any platforms specifics in here; I'd rather not start to add them 20:58:05 wait, so you want to know how to turn off a specifc platform's specific optimisation warnings.... but you don't want to involve anything specific to that platform? 20:58:12 ssh 20:58:22 I want to tell lisp enough to know that what I'm writing is intentional 20:58:24 don't point out the inconsistency to the bear 20:59:35 well, you haven't told us enough to know what you're writing at all 20:59:56 Phoodus: turn down your SPEED and SPACE optimizations then, that is portable and should get rid of the compiler _note_. 21:00:14 jack366 [~jack@70-88-163-233-nm.albuq.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:00:25 drewc: I guess so 21:00:34 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 Phoodus: Your other option is to muffle it in your build system, whatever system that may be. 21:02:15 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:29 nyef: a build system is a platform! 21:02:34 can't have that! :) 21:02:55 nyef: we're using asdf 21:03:08 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@62.65.193.33.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 21:03:20 is anybody actually going to say 'ignore the damn note and move on' or are we being obtuse today? :D 21:03:27 but I've been able to keep SBCL's type system happy and note-free with full optimizations so far 21:04:05 ... Maybe an explicit type declaration? Not sure there. 21:04:12 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:04:27 *nyef* still hasn't found a good explanation of IR1 and its behavior. 21:04:33 nyef: I already tried (the t ..) 21:04:51 Hey, how about a LOCALLY to reduce the optimization level? 21:04:53 pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has joined #lisp 21:04:59 Phoodus: what exactly do you think (the t ...) would be telling the compiler that it doesn't already know? 21:05:11 drewc: that it's intentional 21:05:17 drewc: It would be telling the compiler "yes, I meant to do this". 21:05:47 sorry, i thought the compiler note had to do with not being able to infer the type... 21:06:14 maybe i'm confused :) 21:06:20 yes, you are :) 21:06:42 No, it's actually to do with not being able to select a more optimal template because of the type information it has, and what type information would allow it to select said template. 21:06:49 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:06:53 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:03 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:07:12 I know! Declare it NOTINLINE. 21:07:33 That'll prevent any optimization from going on, and it'll be a full call, but at least you'll no longer get that note. 21:07:37 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:08:29 nyef: ok, well that's what i thought/meant. how would telling the compiler nothing more about the type (the t ...) help it figure out a better template? 21:08:41 it wouldn't 21:08:52 it would say "don't tell me when I fail to find a better template" 21:08:52 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:54 It wouldn't, but it might signal "there is nothing more to be known about this type". 21:09:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:24 drewc: the point is not to have it figure out a better template, the point is so that it knows that it's intended that the optimizations shouldn't attempt to act on type 21:09:42 but should still act on other things 21:09:47 mind you, I still can't actually trigger this note, and my request some time ago for a test case was ignored 21:09:52 but I guess SBCL just doesn't support that sort of rationale in its optimizer 21:09:58 so I think I'm going to ignore the problem 21:10:13 Phoodus: SBCL supports muffling notes fine. 21:10:27 I'm not talking about muffling notes 21:10:39 and a (locally (declare (optimize (speed 0) (safety 0))) ...) doesn't tell the compiler enough? 21:10:45 raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 21:11:00 drewc: that removes all optimizations, instead of still optimizing but excluding the type since it'd be intentionally declared to be t 21:11:13 liek I said, I guess SBCL jsut doesn't support the model of declaration I wanted 21:11:23 Phoodus: the note isn't about type derivation at all. 21:11:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:11:29 erm, its optimization isn't as fine-grained as I'd like 21:11:41 pkhuong: I know, it wants to perform optimization based on a typecheck 21:11:53 but since it can't, it whine 21:11:54 s 21:12:13 Look, if you want a specific template, just use %PRIMITIVE and let us laugh at you if you run into trouble. 21:12:14 but turning off all optimizations for tha block seems a little like throwing the baby out with the bathwater 21:12:23 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 21:12:34 hey, if it can't do what I want, then I'll just leave it unoptimized 21:12:42 -!- raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:52 Phoodus, so muffle the warning instead 21:12:56 I was just wondering if SBCL can be informed as to what I wanted and still optimize happily 21:13:02 I don't understand the relation between an optimisation note for MEMBER and being able to specify the exact type for one of its arguments. 21:13:24 unable to optimize ; due to type uncertainty: 21:13:24 ; can't tell whether the first argument is a (OR FIXNUM (NOT NUMBER)) 21:13:31 in the member call 21:13:34 taht's the relation 21:13:41 pkhuong: in (member x y), if x is known to be comparable by eq, you can use member-eq 21:14:05 if x is not so known, maybe Phoodus will someday tell us how to get the optimization note 21:14:48 if the programmer knows that x will never be so known, then they would like a way to turn off that hypothetical note 21:14:54 so the options are 1) muffle the note, 2) turn off optimizations. No option for 'yes, that one particular optimization you want is not applicable here, that's ok' 21:15:16 no, that conclusion is wrong 21:15:24 because the option that you want is "1) muffle the note" 21:15:42 no, that con; due to type uncertainty: 21:15:42 ; can't tell whether the first argument is a (OR FIXNUM (NOT NUMBER)) 21:15:45 bah 21:15:46 Why not test it? 21:15:59 the example I was shown muffles _all_ notes 21:16:15 how many notes do you have for that one member form? 21:16:23 one 21:16:33 Krystof: I understand that part. I don't see why declaring the exact type of X should affect the behaviour of failed transforms on MEMBER. 21:16:42 but if anythign changes in the call signatures of whats' embedded in the member, that's also affected 21:16:56 you can de-embed things by giving them names 21:17:07 obviously 21:17:11 Actually, I had this exact complaint a while back, only it was a boxing notification for the return value. I wanted to be able to tell the compiler "shut up about boxing the return value, but let me know if there's any opportunity for further excellence." 21:17:22 exactly 21:17:28 pkhuong: I can see (the t ...) having a different to-the-programmer meaning to just ... 21:17:35 and it could be worth preserving that 21:17:56 Phoodus: sure. You can improve on sbcl's compiler note hierarchy by making it more fine-grained 21:18:06 then you can muffle the exact class of condition that the note you care about has 21:18:25 same answer to nyef, except that he has commit access and so even less excuse than you 21:18:26 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:29 You could also use a SATISFIES type. 21:19:04 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:19 Krystof: There is a distiction between muffling a particular SBCL error, and giving it standard Lisp information that it can use 21:19:21 Actually, my excuse is multifold, and part of it is that I no longer care about the particular application I had the problem in. 21:19:32 Phoodus: there's no error here. 21:19:37 I like the way you say "error" 21:19:39 erm, s/error/note, right 21:19:57 anything that isn't "clean" through the compiler gets escalated ;) 21:20:13 the compiler is noting something... you are free to ignore it. you can even have your code ignore the warning for you..... 21:20:16 That's certainly not default behaviour here. 21:21:06 drewc: it's a very nice inidicator to have the compilation step print out something visually different (say, " printed X notes") 21:21:15 can someone put me out of my misery and actually tell me how to trigger this note? 21:21:17 as opposed to that line always being there and the number changing a bit 21:21:25 purely a developer preference thing 21:21:33 Phoodus: i don't follow. 21:21:39 well, then nevermind 21:21:54 my original question was just "This would be nice, can I do it?" 21:22:02 not any sort of critical problem 21:22:17 and the answer was 'yes, muffle the note' 21:22:24 which isn't what I asked 21:22:40 ok, declare the type as a fixnum! ;) 21:22:44 Phoodus: what's the difference? 21:23:11 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754a3f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:22 portability (which can be hidden in macros and such), and masking vs correcting issues 21:23:48 But... what's the actual issue here? 21:23:56 You explicitly asked to mask that note because you know you don't want to correct it. 21:24:02 SBCL isn't happy with what I wrote; it can't optimize it the way it wants to 21:24:16 Umm... That's not what it says. 21:24:24 Or, at least, not what it means. 21:24:24 Phoodus: that's really not how optimisation notes should be interpreted. 21:24:26 and I can't say "It's okay", I can only tell it "Don't tell me" 21:24:32 phoodus: If you just tested to see if it were a fixnum ... then the indeterminacy would go away. 21:24:39 "note: unable to optimize". I think that's pretty clear 21:24:44 Phoodus: you seem to think that 'notes' are 'style warnings' or something that means more than 'hey, i could optimise this if you can promise me something" 21:25:03 Phoodus: and how would the effect of telling it that "it's okay" differ from that of a "don't tell me"? 21:25:25 Because it could still optimize other things in that body 21:25:31 a minor issue, i know 21:25:34 can everyone else actually produce this note and it's just me who is flailing around trying to get it? 21:25:45 like I said, it's purely a "It'd be nice if.." sort of thing 21:25:49 Krystof: are you in the SLIME REPL? Notes are muffled there. 21:25:51 no 21:26:06 Phoodus: muffling the printing of notes does not shut off the optimisations. 21:26:09 Krystof: (defun foo (x y) (declare (optimize speed) (list y)) (member x y)) 21:26:10 I've tried a couple of things from a bare SBCL REPL and failed to get it. 21:26:14 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:25 oh, I'm at the normal repl, which probably does the same 21:26:28 damn whoever implemented that 21:26:47 duh 21:26:48 Phoodus: In what body? You get to stick a LOCALLY exactly where you want. 21:27:10 look, I know and understand everything you guys are saying 21:27:22 Phoodus: then I don't understand the discussion. 21:27:23 I don't see what the pages and pages and pages of argumentation is about 21:27:45 http://www.newartisans.com/2009/03/hello-haskell-goodbye-lisp.html - Don't troll me. It's just a nice read. 21:27:48 it's just a "Would be nice, can it do this?" a simple "no, you can't" would suffice, not whatever response from whatever I've dared to offend here :_P 21:28:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:28:28 Phoodus: while what actually happened was a "Yes, you can" followed by "No, that's not what I want but I can't articulate the difference". 21:28:33 "can i drive to the moon?" "no, but you can take a rocket" "answer my question, i'm not asking about rockets!" 21:29:08 I can see a difference 21:29:14 drewc is more correct 21:29:14 <_3b> pkhuong: followed by lots of 'well, articulate it anyway' :p 21:29:15 it was the rudeness that I was arguing about 21:29:32 as drewc characterizes 21:30:09 "perceived rudeness" is probably fairer 21:30:28 right, as pretty objective rudeness was from yourself and drewc pretty immediately ;) 21:30:34 oh fuck off 21:30:45 ;) 21:30:50 cretin 21:30:51 we've even offered to transport the damn car in the rocket! and let Phoodus sit in the drivers seat and look out the windshield! :D 21:31:05 read the log, it's right there 21:31:12 pages and pages up the scrollback 21:31:17 Phoodus: i can do rude, if you like. 21:31:24 I know, I've seen it quite often here ;) 21:31:41 you're a fucking wanker and don't have a godamn clue what you're talking about. Now STFU or move on. 21:31:43 like I said, it's purely semantics, cleanliness, portability, etc, sort of issues I'm saying 21:32:01 21:32:06 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:10 I know the practicality of masking notes, and I'm wonder about something further than just that, which doesn't exist, and therefore is somehow antagonistic 21:32:49 -!- jleija_ [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:33:07 and after learning that something beyond just masking it doesn't exist, it's still a point to be argued by you guys for some reason 21:33:36 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:34:09 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-0-123.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:59 -!- jack366 [~jack@70-88-163-233-nm.albuq.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:41 someone should just change the name of (muffle-conditions compiler-notes) to (declare its-ok-no-need-to-optimize-beyond-what-you-can) and see if Phoodus gets the point then. ;) 21:38:04 actually, aside from my failure to get the note for far too long, I'm not sure why there is such sarcasm 21:38:07 I understand every single point you've brought up 21:38:41 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:41 -!- ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-10-135-121.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:38:44 -!- fujin [~aj@60-234-156-8.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 21:38:58 Krystof: optimize speed to 3, safety to 0, and do a member with unknown type of the item 21:39:00 it seems obvious to me that marking a single call for silence is potentially useful, and that going from 0 notes to 1 note in a development build is painful, and that (the t ...) is a potentially useful trick to mark stuf 21:39:11 Krystof: I still don't understand how muffling doesn't work. 21:39:13 Phoodus: yes, my problem was that I was doing that at the repl 21:39:31 It might not be *convenient*, but that's something else altogether. 21:39:41 brill [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:39:42 pkhuong: I never said muffling didn't work 21:39:47 pkhuong: (member x (complicated-thingy macroexpanding-into lotso-arithmetic)) 21:39:53 my point was the possibility of prevention of the note, not muffling it 21:39:53 -!- brill [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:00 wrapping that is inconvenient 21:40:05 Phoodus: and the difference is? 21:40:17 oh, I'm not absolving Phoodus from failure to communicate 21:40:29 Oh, right, the total at the end, is that it? 21:40:30 that's a pretty good example right there 21:40:42 pkhuong: having to wrap platform specifics, general cleanliness and seeing if there's a "proper" way around the note 21:40:47 the note is prevented by muffling it 21:40:54 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 21:41:05 the note is created and muffled, instead of not being raised at all 21:41:16 prevention vs masking 21:41:30 Phoodus: and, again, I don't see the difference it makes to you. 21:41:42 like I said a million times, it's not a critical error 21:41:43 Phoodus: I'm talking about failure to communicate. you repeating what you've just said isn't going to help you communicate 21:41:51 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-157-113.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:42:00 it's seeing if it's possible to make it happy isntaed of just hiding its notes 21:42:11 can you at least credit us with trying to help, please, rather than the generic rudeness you've actually explicitly accused us of 21:42:21 Krystof: Here's an anlogy: preventing a disease is different from removing the effects of a disease 21:42:59 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-158-177.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:43:29 Krystof: Would you like me to paste you back some unprovoked rudeness that you (communally) displayed before I went "bah, I'm done being polite"? :) 21:43:34 Phoodus: please, expand your analogy to the case at hand. 21:43:35 *pix4* grabs beer and popcorn. 21:44:01 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-95-108.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:44:03 Younder [~jthing@75.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:44:15 pkhuong: SBCL wants to perform a particular optimization, but that's a problem since that optimization requires knowledge of a type which is uncertain 21:44:35 ace4016 [~dante4016@adsl-10-135-23.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:44 Phoodus: and? 21:44:45 the ideal "wouldn't it be nice" thing I'm talking about is telling it that no, the type is not uncertain, it's intentionally t, and therefore that optimization isn't even considered, and there's nothing to note 21:45:08 Instead, if you muffle, the optimisation isn't considered and you don't get a note. 21:45:35 <_3b> pkhuong: i think it is sort of a CAR vs FIRST kind of thing... 21:45:56 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-091-121.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:46:09 pkhuong: why wouldn't it be considered? 21:46:31 Phoodus: because the types don't match. That's how the type directed transforms work. 21:46:34 Phoodus: no, thank you; I'm interested in trying to help you communicate, not in playground fighting. Here's another analogy: "vaccination means that it doesn't matter if you're exposed to infectious agents" 21:47:16 now, try not to use yet a different analogy, but again, please credit your interlocutors with some intelligence and expertise 21:47:22 Krystof: I'm not interested in an argument here ither 21:47:26 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 21:47:41 I said I'm clearly in "wouldn't it be nice if.." territory 21:47:52 phoodus: It is telling you about an implementation decision. 21:48:01 Zhivago: I know, and I'm informed of its internals now 21:48:10 antifuchs: hi there 21:48:21 hi (: 21:48:29 It's just a failure of the principle of least astonishment for me in terms of type declarations 21:48:31 made it home? (: 21:48:35 TMBSSNROTW"clearly"OWIWNPA 21:48:48 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-95-108.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:48:50 ok, that least astonishment at least we can deal with 21:48:53 Phoodus: It is telling you about an implementation decision -- not about your types. 21:49:03 T is the identity type with respect to type intersection 21:49:16 therefore, saying (the t ) cannot impart new type information about 21:49:21 Phoodus: This is the point upon which you seem to be getting hung up on. 21:49:34 I hope that you are now more less astonished 21:49:37 what SBCL told me was "due to type uncertainty" 21:49:41 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:49:42 I was trying to give it type certainty 21:50:01 Phoodus: T is as uncertain as it gets. 21:50:17 well, I guess "certainty" needs to be objectively defined then :) 21:50:23 antifuchs: Yup; the power sockets in ÖBB suck deeply... it seems like there's no buffer involved, so when the power contact of the train looses contact, there's no electricity comming out of the sockets for tens of seconds (not that good for a notebook without battery...) 21:50:34 stating it was t seemed to me to make it certain 21:50:36 loses* 21:50:40 ouch! 21:50:51 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-95-108.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:15 Phoodus: yeah.. you're certain that it can be anything. Known unknowns still aren't knowns. 21:51:22 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:29 I'd have assumed there's at least a diesel generator that's kept running... but this is bad 21:51:36 certainly uncertain 21:51:53 inference, to me, is always multivariate with an "unknown" vs "known" being orthogonal to the actual type 21:52:04 antifuchs: Do you have some time to continue the discussion we haven't had time for at sunday? 21:52:11 Aha! "to me"! 21:52:12 but like I said, it's coming from different ways of viewing the word "certain" in the note that was my disconnect 21:52:36 tomorrow... I don't know why I'm so tired lately, but I'm almost ready to fall asleep right now 21:52:59 Krystof: heh, my thoughts exactly. 21:53:00 since in an open world model, I'd assume "known to be type t" and unknown type are actually diferentiable 21:53:11 antifuchs: Oki 21:53:13 Phoodus: no. Everything is of type T. 21:53:21 I know that 21:53:28 Then what's the difference? 21:53:31 Phoodus: 'unknown type' => 'of type t' 21:53:33 but in an open world model, t and unknown would be differentiable 21:53:42 Phoodus: no. T is the universal type. 21:53:43 and a statement of type t would differentiate 21:53:45 Phoodus: it is always 100% certain that every lisp object is of type t 21:53:45 <_3b> pkhuong: 'known to the programmer to be' is the difference 21:54:07 pkhuong/Krystof: I know 21:54:13 Phoodus: t: The set of all objects. The type t is a supertype of every type, including itself. Every object is of type t. 21:54:48 _3b: still no difference. We're talking about the type of the object here, not the smallest set of values that form could evaluate to. 21:56:37 <_3b> pkhuong: my point is that explicitly saying there is no more specific type is different from saying the inability to optimize is not interesting 21:57:35 *_3b* probably can't explain it any better than Phoodus though, so if that didn't make sense, i'll stop there :) 21:57:43 It made perfect sense to me :) 21:58:05 and I'd say much better stated than what I came up with 21:58:40 _3b: the problem is that it's not what THE means. THE is a guarantee that *each* value will be of that type, and says nothing about the least type for which that'll be true. 21:58:53 _3b: that actually does make sense, although I don't think the system was designed with the ability to express that something is known to be uncertain. 21:58:58 in mind*. 21:59:16 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 21:59:19 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:22 <_3b> pkhuong: right, not arguing that that is the right way to make that particular assertion 21:59:27 _3b: that makes some sense, but then i still want the compiler note when i declare (the t ...) 21:59:52 _3b: as, like you mention, the two concepts are mostly orthagonal :) 22:00:16 _3b: and that's still not true of "known to be of type T". 22:00:26 -!- basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.125.182.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Quit: basant] 22:01:29 Much like there's a difference between "known to be of type (NOT X)" and "known not to be of type X". 22:01:35 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:01:36 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:38 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:01:49 pkhuong: yes, that's getting into open world reasoning 22:01:50 or actually "not *always* of type X". 22:02:29 but if the type inference only tracks "most specific possible types" instead of what it does & doesn't know, then that sort of reasoning really isn't possible 22:02:34 Phoodus: the type system does work as an open world. What it doesn't do is offer a way to express "not always of type ...". That's orthogonal to the fact that T is the universal type and that *everything* is of type T. 22:02:58 ok 22:03:04 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:03:37 sb-ext:not-the might be useful. 22:04:12 That makes a lot more sense than somehow overloading the meaning of (THE T ...) 22:04:13 <_3b> pkhuong: i think the idea here is to say that nothing more specific can be known 22:04:45 _3b: no, the point is to say that we know that the value can be a non-fixnum number. 22:04:57 pkhuong: shame it'd introduce a platform-specific construct 22:05:04 but it already knows that it can be a non-fixnum number 22:05:10 if it's just T 22:05:15 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:05:23 Phoodus: absolutely not. Non fixnum numbers are of type T. 22:05:25 but the difference is, is it inferred, or did the programmer say so? 22:05:35 <_3b> pkhuong: i think i parse 'not-the' differently than you do 22:05:42 pkhuong: um, doesn't that agree with what I said? 22:05:52 (what-the *fuck*) 22:06:12 Phoodus: fixnums are of type T as well 22:06:12 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.14] has joined #lisp 22:06:20 oh.. _can_ be 22:06:21 nm 22:06:34 wait, I'm confused. 22:06:42 not just me then. 22:07:22 Phoodus: (the t ...) is a tautology; it does not mean anything like "[...] will, under the right circumstances, evaluate to every value under the sun." 22:07:27 right 22:07:52 that was just my first attempt at trying to convey that intent into Lisp 22:07:53 (member (the (and number (not fixnum)) ...) list) [w|sh]ould shut the compiler transform up, because the compiler would then be certain that the argument wasn't an eq-comparable type 22:08:04 it has the disadvantage of not necessarily being true 22:08:10 Krystof: right. 22:08:12 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:32 Isnt everything a subtype of T except nil which is a subtype of nill? 22:08:41 oh, the evening has just got so much better 22:08:56 Krystof: This hack to track lvars that have been declared of type T seems to be mostly working, but I really don't think it's a good idea. 22:08:57 null 22:09:04 <_3b> ... could still be a fixnum though, right? 22:09:15 Krystof: it seems to me that if the intent is simply to muffle the condition, there should be a specifc declaration for that, unrelated to the type of the object itself :P 22:09:42 c|mell: yup, looks much better now 22:09:56 Krystof: muffling conditions by the name of the trigger function would also be a more reasonable option to me. 22:10:02 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:03 Younder: nil is a subtype of everything, by definition 22:10:32 pkhuong: yes, I was contemplating that too 22:10:39 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:58 it's not ideal for functions which are expanded into as a result of other transforms 22:11:22 maybe the filter is on the lexically-apparent name after inline expansion, or something? 22:12:13 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 22:12:18 drewc: I think the intent is to muffle one specific condition. I think augmenting the conditions we have with useful slots or a useful class hierarchy would be beneficial 22:12:58 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:13:13 well, my specific intent was to see if there's some CL-standard way of giving it enough information so that the specific condition is no longer note-worthy 22:13:13 mathrick, yes, but I find it easier to see it as a empty set. T being the most restrictive.(MUST be) and nil the least restrictive. true no matter what. {} -> a => a 22:13:56 are compiler notes even in the standard? 22:14:05 <_3b> Phoodus: my preferred way to do that is only use (speed 3) when i know all the types at compile time :p 22:14:18 Phoodus: there is, if you have such information. If you know it will be a fixnum, you can declare it so. If you know it won't be a fixnum, you can declare it so. But you don't have the information, so how can you give it to lisp? 22:14:23 _3b: this is the first note in my project I can't resolve by adding type info 22:14:44 <_3b> Phoodus: right, but does (speed 3) on that function affect runtime? 22:14:45 Krystof: that would be useful indeed. 22:14:59 _3b: a bit, not much 22:15:07 like I said, this whole thing is just "would be nice if..." 22:15:26 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-091-121.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:15:55 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d828c5.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:16:46 sorry about that mathrick, it was a proper thinko -- thanks for the report 22:16:56 excellent! Then we're agreed. I've not quite finished writing my lecture, Phoodus thinks we're all rude and stupid, and no-one understands pkhuong's sb-ext:not-the operator 22:17:21 c|mell: sure, I'm not going tom complain about you providing a portable macroexpander and then fixing bugs promptly :) 22:17:27 s/tom/to/ 22:17:37 Krystof: instead of establishing an upper bound on the tightest static type, not-the establishes a lower bound. 22:17:54 so rather, sb-ext:at-least-the (: 22:18:03 -!- varg` [~user@rlyeh.regex.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:15 ok, that at least has the potential to be comprehended 22:18:16 wait a minute 22:18:19 <_3b> pkhuong: ah, that is what i wanted too then :) 22:18:26 *_3b* still doens't get the new name though 22:18:33 how does that help in this case? 22:18:40 *drewc* is more confused with the new name :) 22:18:42 hmm, (not-the (not t))? :-P 22:19:13 drewc: you declare that you know it's at least a T, and all the notes about "if I could prove this were ..., then I'd do that" can be implicitly muffled. 22:19:27 <_3b> seems like it helps in that the compiler could know not to bother checking for things that require a tighter bound 22:19:32 right, it's the meaning Phoodus wanted for THE 22:19:36 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:37 right... ok 22:19:47 what type would I give to not-the? 22:20:02 and I'm not sure, from everything I've seen from inside SBCL now, if that would help either 22:20:14 you'd not use not-the because not-the is not the name 22:20:25 because it still would know that it can't know at cmpile time whether it's (or fixnum (not number)), right? 22:20:57 you are speaking to people who are modifying your sbcl as you type 22:21:02 well, maybe not your sbcl 22:21:07 right 22:21:10 Phoodus: no, I'd modify the optimiser to take these lower bounds into account. 22:21:13 though I wouldn't put it past pkhuong 22:21:23 I know that I know nothing about SBCL's internals, except it does type inference, and from reading disassemblies 22:21:25 ha 22:21:26 those canadians can be pretty tricky 22:21:51 There's no point telling me that "if only [...] were true then", if I know that [...] is false. That's why I went with NOT-THE at first. 22:22:09 But it's probably easier to explain as "AT-LEAST-THE". 22:22:31 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B250.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:22:48 I guess the root question, is if there's any CL type declarations that can make a member call with item type T not give a note when optimizations are cranked? 22:22:54 I want to be cool like you guys when I grow up. 22:22:59 Phoodus: no. 22:23:16 but even with not-the and other specifics, the type is still the same with regards to knowing it can't use member-eq 22:24:26 Phoodus: no, because then the backend knows not to bug you about uncertainty: it's known that the transform can't be used. 22:24:27 dammit, why doesn't CFFI have a functional interface 22:25:19 pkhuong: you mean specifically if I used (not-the (not t)) or something? 22:25:44 You'd use (not-the (or fixnum (not number)), probably. 22:25:54 <_3b> hmm, are characters EQ comparable in sbcl? 22:25:59 *_3b* is confused by that type now 22:26:02 oh, now I understand not-the 22:26:16 *mathrick* is working around the macro-only API with even more macros, and it's not looking pretty. Not to mention collapsing badly 22:26:24 (not-the x y) = "I can't tell you (the x y)" 22:26:31 Krystof: right. 22:26:34 so, (not-the (or fixnum (not number))) vs (the (not (or fixnum (not number)))) 22:26:34 mathrick: EVAL :\ 22:26:48 pkhuong: not sure it'd help me 22:26:51 ok 22:27:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 22:27:08 Phoodus: the former offers negative information, the latter a lie. 22:27:24 yeah, not-the seems just a slight misnomer 22:27:48 read it as "I am not writing THE here" 22:28:29 if I could get conditional unquoting, I should be alright I think. But that doesn't seem doable without a reader macro :( 22:28:49 though, hmm, macrolet might be enough 22:29:20 chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 22:29:37 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:50 pkhuong: is not-the documented anywhere? 22:30:20 I just thinking how coding in c# wrecks my fingers after a day of hacking. most of the syntax is handled by my right hand's pinkies. do you find writing lisp (which is mostly writing plain english with some paredit shortcuts) is easier on your fingers? 22:30:45 chrisdone: I have issues with my left pinky, dunno if that counts as better :) 22:30:46 I only wish lisp used [] instead of () so that shift wouldn't be involved :) 22:31:00 Phoodus: doesn't paredit take care of that? 22:31:00 *drewc* glances at his left pinky and shudders 22:31:06 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:31:08 Phoodus: it's easy enough to map () to []. 22:31:16 mathrick: how come you have left pinky trouble? 22:31:35 ( == LShfit + 9 22:31:36 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:52 pjb: yeah, but then my source code really wouldn't look like lisp anymore ;) 22:31:59 mathrick: bah .. ( = [ 22:31:59 mathrick: like pjb said, how come you don't bind it to []? 22:32:00 Phoodus: for example: (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "(") (lambda () (interactive) (insert "["))) (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd ")") (lambda () (interactive) (insert "]"))) 22:32:00 22:32:05 my thinkpad having ctrl pretty close to X and S is helping things, though, so at least I don't get the ctrl-related suck 22:32:10 Phoodus: again, you are talking to people who are modifying sbcl as you type. Asking for documentation for a not-yet-implemented feature is... ambitious 22:32:14 pjb: oh, keymappings. That's interesting 22:32:16 Phoodus: You don't understand. When you type [, emacs inserts (. 22:32:17 I have () and <> swapped (on a dvorak layout), so pinky work is balanced out between left pinky (for ctrl) and right pinky (for shift+paren) 22:32:26 chrisdone: too confusing, never got used to that 22:32:32 I probably should 22:32:45 mathrick: definitely worth saving your fingers! 22:32:57 but there's another thing, which is I type a lot of caps by holding shift, which is probably the primary issue here 22:33:20 I think I only use my left shift key 22:33:25 yeah 22:33:26 Phoodus: err, perhaps you need to swap () and [] in the previous command . 22:33:41 Phoodus: ouch, naughty 22:33:54 Phoodus: (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "[") 'insert-parentheses) (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "]") 'move-past-close-and-reindent) 22:33:54 22:34:05 pjb: I won't bother anyway. It's too little of an issue to have to work around the ability to occasionally type in [] into lisp code/comments/strings 22:34:43 Phoodus: might fall on deaf ears but learning elisp is one of the most productivity increasing things you can do, I feel 22:34:55 Phoodus: e.g. you could make it type [ when inside of a comment or string 22:35:02 yeah 22:35:20 though time spent actually typing and dealing with syntax is a very tiny portion of my real efforts 22:36:13 Phoodus: not-the doesn't exist. 22:36:14 If I were coding Java or something in emacs where highly redundant/repetitive code is used often, that'd definitely be a higher priority ;) 22:36:39 ... I disappear for 45 minutes and this conversation is still going on? Clearly, I need to disappear for longer. 22:37:21 pkhuong: oh, I thought " sb-ext:not-the might be useful." meant it existed, not that it would be nice to add 22:37:35 nyef: a good magician never reveals his true intentions 22:39:14 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:56 -!- chrisdone [~user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has left #lisp 22:44:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:51:15 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.122.28] has joined #lisp 22:51:15 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.122.28] has quit [Changing host] 22:51:15 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 22:51:16 *attila_lendvai* finished district 9 and didn't like it much. high potential, but completely inconsistent holywood shooter in the end 22:51:43 attila_lendvai: it's not a Holywood movie. 22:52:15 Agreed, there could be less explosions, but it's ok. 22:53:28 I thought it was a more interesting movie than super-entertaining. The whole "I'm turning into a prawn!" part from having ship fuel in him was quite a stretch :-P 22:53:31 doesn't matter... but to be honest i didn't like avatar for the same reason: stupid ending after a very interesting start. and avatar at least had one consistent and interesting character... district 9 had none in main role 22:54:02 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:05 but overall, even if they're not the super best total awesome, the fact that District 9 and Star Trek released successful scifi back into theaters is a good thing 22:54:12 (for various definitions of sci-fi, yeah0 22:54:25 attila_lendvai: sure, it was an anti-hero. That's why he wasn't interesting a character! :-) 22:54:55 pjb, he was so inconsistent taht i would expect more from a 10 year old... 22:55:19 smanek [~smanek@2002:18d5:a488:0:226:bbff:fe03:f491] has joined #lisp 22:55:33 but it's all offtopic... it's just fascinating how imdb votes become less and less useful... 22:55:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:57:14 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:19 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 22:57:25 *attila_lendvai* goes bedwards... 22:57:49 -!- hc_e [~hc@salato.hcesperer.org] has quit [Changing host] 22:57:49 hc_e [~hc@pdpc/supporter/active/hc-e] has joined #lisp 22:58:21 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-28-248.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:58:34 lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 22:58:34 -!- lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:35 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:40 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 -!- prip [~foo@host2-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:59:23 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:59:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:20 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:38 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:01:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02:34 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:41 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:05:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:18 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:27 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:07:53 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:00 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:00 prip [~foo@host2-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:39 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 23:15:49 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:22:13 mejja [~user@c-52b1e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:23:43 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:23:51 Ppjet6 [~ppjet@xvm-22-22.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:27 -!- Ppjet6 [~ppjet@xvm-22-22.ghst.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:32 Pepe_ [~ppjet@xvm-22-22.ghst.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:13 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:40 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:27:09 it would not be unreasonable i think for some classes to have slots that are not part of any real strorage anywhere.. yet feel like slots? 23:27:38 *dmiles_afk* is just going for a sanity about classes 23:27:39 fusss [~chatzilla@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:07 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:35 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:37 -!- smanek [~smanek@2002:18d5:a488:0:226:bbff:fe03:f491] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:33:50 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:03 ramus [~ramus@99.23.131.154] has joined #lisp 23:37:20 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:37:26 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:25 dmiles_afk: you mean that you'd use slot-boundp and slot-value instead of declared accessors? 23:38:38 I guess that should be possible writing a meta-class. 23:38:42 dmiles_afk: is RAM real enough for you ? 23:38:45 anyone know of some package that implements something like franz's "modern mode"; i.e. case sensitive common lisp 23:39:13 cl-soap uses |annoyingVerticalBars| 23:40:14 READTABLE-CASE :PRESERVE is nice too. 23:40:51 pjb: yes so that slot-boundp and slot-value operate when someone extended a structure class with another structure class 23:41:40 i guess i am trying to understand the separation of clos and basic lisp structures 23:42:05 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.107] has joined #lisp 23:42:28 fusss: is :invert not good enough? 23:42:51 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@e179160253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:43:27 in my mind (which is often wrong) i think of clos being built on slotted structures and sometimes going beyond.. and sometimes leave lisp structures behind 23:43:31 dmiles_afk: the separation is implementation dependant, there may be none (apart from the metaclass). However most implementations distinguish them indeed. 23:43:58 dmiles_afk: the metaclasses specify how the slots are implemented, and this can be quite different than structure. 23:44:10 pkhuong: my reader-fu is non-existent, aside from the occasional reader-macro to deserialize something, and it's usually cut and pasted. i thought it was a far more involved process than just copy the reader table, binding it in an environment, and frobbing it to pieces. 23:44:59 so sometimes the metaclasses work backwards compatible to structure? 23:46:00 well slot-value or index based slot access 23:46:29 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:38 fusss: :invert will map lowercase to uppercase, uppercase to lowercase, and mixed-case as is... and reverse the mapping when printing. 23:47:19 fusss: be careful though, around 30-50% of existing code will break when you run with non-standard readtable case 23:47:26 including CFFI 23:48:06 mathrick: an hence my question. i know it takes some package tricks to isolate the case-aware code into a lump and use it through a tight interface. i will research how. 23:48:21 mathrick: how does CFFI die on :invert? 23:48:42 clsql has a SQL syntax which i can peruse for examples, but it's case agnostic 23:49:07 pkhuong: in a confusing way. I haven't done it in a long time, so I don't remember exactly, but it took me some time to track it down to CFFI having issues with :invert 23:49:32 then I just reverted to :UPCASE, because I didn't have the time to fight with it 23:50:36 Krystof: we'll see how much the type system likes having a lower-bound type. 23:50:36 fusss: it mostly takes not using (intern (format "FOO-~A" :bar)) 23:50:41 also, i will need the aesthetic input of the resident soap gurus, if any. most languages i have surveyed offer different approaches to SOAP, strangely, php and java having the cleanest approach. 23:50:52 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:50:53 mathrick: gotcha 23:50:54 if you use SYMBOL-NAME instead, it'll just work 23:51:36 (that is, (intern (format "~A-~A" (symbol-name :foo) (symbol-name :bar)))) 23:51:37 Or write a read-symbol-from-string. 23:51:50 how'd that work? 23:51:59 talk away, brb 23:52:07 mathrick: minimally, READ and a type check. 23:52:09 I wrote FORMAT-SYM, which takes 23:52:12 ergh 23:52:32 I wrote FORMAT-SYM, which takes :foo :bar :baz and interpolates them into :foo-bar-baz 23:52:34 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DE2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:53:02 correctly, dispatch on readtable-case and a couple case checks. 23:53:09 (as in character case) 23:54:11 pkhuong: I think just using the reader to do the right thing with :foo :bar is easier, and also doesn't depend on the runtime setting 23:54:17 ...which might be desired or not 23:54:39 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:59:14 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp