00:00:08 oh? that's possible. 00:00:14 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:00:17 clhs make-package 00:00:22 clhs defpackage 00:00:24 right 00:00:32 no bots 00:00:54 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:08 l1sp.org/cl/defpackage 00:01:10 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 00:01:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 00:01:26 stassats`: tell bjorkintosh about that-dead-sexy-book 00:01:34 which one? 00:01:34 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 00:01:48 anton_v [~Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 00:01:51 we don't need no stinkin' bots! 00:01:54 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:02:34 dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:49 anyone using clbuild? I just did a fresh install and can't get slime working - get an error from swank-fancy-inspector 00:02:52 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 00:03:04 saying (0.0) is not of type REAL 00:03:06 spacebat: update your sbcl 00:03:21 I did yesterday 00:03:24 it's quite frustrating. i'm following the instructions related to clm precisely. but i'm getting errors i'm not sure what to do about. 00:03:28 is it a recent fix? 00:03:30 you need to do it again 00:03:32 spacebat: yes 00:03:33 and the great oracle google, isn't helping. 00:03:40 fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 00:03:43 thanks! 00:03:55 -!- anton_v [~Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:47 what is the normal lisp debugging procedure? 00:05:03 "think hard" 00:05:10 inspect the stack and figure out what's wrong 00:05:13 do I need to use progn and format output? 00:05:19 no 00:05:30 sprinkle princ forms through the source? 00:05:40 i usually use the debugger ... imagine that 00:05:45 heh 00:05:46 heh 00:05:48 imagine. 00:05:58 I tried using the debugger but didn't find it intuitive 00:06:06 I'm sorry that my ignorance is offensive 00:06:09 the problem was 00:06:15 no, it is you that wasn't intuitive 00:06:23 that it didn't display variable values 00:06:24 (joke!) 00:06:27 yes it was me 00:06:29 the only intuitive interface is the nipple ;) 00:06:39 its true 00:06:42 fatblueduck: you might want to compile with debug optimizations instead of speed 00:06:45 those aren't intuitive for me either :( 00:06:47 (declaim (optimize debug)) 00:06:55 don't try sucking on the debugger! 00:06:59 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:07:00 the AI gods of the future will be giant floating breasts 00:07:02 that way you might be able to actually get information from the debugger :) 00:07:27 rahul: thank you! 00:07:28 spacebat: update SBCL again. 00:07:31 and don't forget C-u C-c C-c 00:07:35 yes will do thanks 00:08:14 spacebat: unfortunately, your update fell in a ~2 day time window during which HEAD was broken. 00:08:14 I read that proclaim is deprecated, so we use declaim instead... what's the diff in simple(ton) terms? 00:08:29 spacebat: proclaim is a function 00:08:43 it has to be evaluated to have an effect, which gets confusing when dealing with compilation 00:08:53 ok 00:09:00 since it'll only get evaluated at load time unless you use eval-when 00:09:04 declaim is a proclaim with eval-when 00:09:12 the blighted eval-when 00:09:40 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:09:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:09:57 mmmm.... coffee is almost ready... 00:10:03 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 00:10:16 *drewc* is on a hacking and coffee binge 00:10:24 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:10:39 drewc: I'm sure you'll fell energetic and wonderful tomorrow 00:10:56 feel* 00:11:10 he may fell something, too 00:11:15 careful 00:11:22 fatblueduck: even the greatest hacker needed a day of rest :P 00:11:45 no rest for the weary! 00:12:48 -!- hey [~501eb801@gateway/web/freenode/x-eeuilvvaatagjkdi] has left #lisp 00:13:00 i miss that espresso machine in Cambridge there... with the snack bar that was an easy place to stay in the hack :) 00:13:39 no, rest for the weary! 00:14:06 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 00:14:26 heh 00:14:49 ah, good times 00:15:09 now I get to herd 20 gigs of risk metrics around 00:15:23 yowza 00:15:38 yeah 00:15:39 heh 00:21:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089074179078.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 00:21:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 00:21:15 before christmas I started hacking on an ECL content handler module for apache 00:21:45 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 00:21:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:21:56 I did some searching at the time and didn't find anything similar - anyone know if I'm reinventing a wheel? 00:22:46 spacebat: that defeats one of the nicest things about common lisp: working in a live environment. 00:22:54 it does 00:23:17 well 00:23:51 I'm only looking at the multiprocess model at the moment, where that is the case 00:24:25 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:26 but the threaded/worker MPM would have a single ECL instance, as long lived as the httpd 00:24:39 pkhuong: well, said content handler doesn't necessarily have to restart for every request... 00:24:40 so that could have an extra thread for a repl 00:25:12 p_l: is it guaranteed to be the same for all requests? 00:25:22 only in the threaded model 00:25:29 pkhuong: depends on implementation and MPM 00:25:33 yes 00:26:01 the version I started lives and dies with each apache child process 00:26:09 how is that different from mod_lisp... it lives in the apache process? 00:26:30 mod_lisp ain't lisp 00:26:43 its more like a lisp friendly mod_proxy AFAICT 00:26:51 yes, exactly... 00:27:00 this has ECL embedded in the apache child 00:27:13 so in theory it would be able to poke around like mod_perl can 00:28:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:02 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:34 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:33:27 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:33:30 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:10 goodnight everyone... 00:34:12 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 00:34:42 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 00:35:38 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:35:46 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:47 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:17 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 00:45:46 -!- gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has left #lisp 00:46:35 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:46:57 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:49:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:53:12 Phooodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:55 WhiteFlam [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:20 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:56:46 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:57:50 -!- WhiteFlam [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:07 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-053-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:58:09 -!- knobo [~user@ti0073a340-0010.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:58:54 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:59:14 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:57 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 01:00:26 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 01:01:05 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:41 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 01:02:07 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:03:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.49.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:04:00 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:04:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:05:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-6.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:05:32 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:07:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:08:01 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:08:54 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:52 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 01:11:06 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:12:08 -!- billstclair [wws@clozure-FBC03AD1.tacwap.org] has quit [Input/output error] 01:12:09 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:47 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:14:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:15:56 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:56 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-74-209-23-233.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:15:56 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:17:08 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:17:39 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:19:14 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 01:23:01 lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 01:25:32 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:25:50 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:29:27 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:48 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:30:25 -!- faux` [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:11 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:34:12 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 01:34:53 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:59 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 01:35:58 -!- gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:10 -!- TR2N` [email@89-180-224-77.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 01:36:28 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-B39B2CCB.midmaine.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:36:30 gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:21 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:21 -!- gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has left #lisp 01:41:33 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:46 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:02 gz__ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has joined #lisp 01:45:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 01:46:50 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:43 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 01:51:31 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:51:40 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 01:52:50 -!- Sikander [~Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 01:55:33 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:01 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-6-24.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:07 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 01:56:20 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:55 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 01:57:53 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:07 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:45 -!- Guest58096 [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 01:59:58 Tabmow [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 02:02:01 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 02:03:46 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:06 -!- gz__ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has quit [Quit: gz__] 02:04:06 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-B39B2CCB.midmaine.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 02:04:51 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:08 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:05:14 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 02:05:29 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 02:06:40 rickmode [~rick@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:08 " Thus (A NIL B) can 02:07:08 also be written (A ( ) B). 02:07:11 " Hah. 02:08:39 (read-from-string "(A ( ) B)") => (A NIL B) 02:08:40 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 02:09:03 ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.1] has joined #lisp 02:09:27 Cute. 02:09:27 (symbolp '()) -> t 02:09:53 (listp NIL) => t 02:10:06 symbolp, atom, listp, null, all return t 02:10:11 (and possibly more) 02:10:14 and NOT 02:10:28 The thing I like most about lisp is, how often, while learning it, I think "SICK MONKEYS". 02:10:36 ? 02:10:42 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:10:44 yeah, though 'not' really isn't a type-like predicate 02:11:21 true enough. 02:12:15 yes it is.. (defun not (x) (typep x 'null)) 02:13:11 (first ()) 02:13:11 NIL 02:13:15 I expected an error. 02:13:38 adeht: so not and null generally have the exact same definition? 02:14:14 Phooodus: of course, what else would it be? It's like CAR and FIRST :) 02:14:15 Phooodus: they are extensionally equivalent 02:14:20 ok 02:14:27 didn't quite put that together :) 02:14:44 Darxus: the car and cdr of nil are both nil 02:15:42 Darxus: the punning on NIL is one of the defining things in lisp. Many have thought it odd, scheme doesn't do it.. i'm not sure about clojure. 02:15:53 Lisp was originally intended as a pseudocode language? 02:16:01 1/3 of the Arc interpreter was adding nil-punning back in. 02:16:06 no, a notation. 02:16:18 Punning? 02:16:42 yes, NIL being both the empty list and the false value 02:17:00 Okay. I don't understand how that relates to the word "punning". 02:17:04 ya why is that called "prunning?" 02:17:42 pun, n: "a form of word play that deliberately exploits ambiguity between similar-sounding words for humorous or rhetorical effect" 02:17:42 because you use the same term to describe two concepts 02:18:06 In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science, type punning is a common term for any programming technique that subverts or circumvents the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_system of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language in order to achieve an effect that would be difficult or impossible to achieve within the bounds of the formal language. 02:18:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_punning 02:18:19 clear as mud 02:18:23 lol 02:18:58 i am not talking about type punning 02:19:08 azanar [~azanar@67-134-197-171.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:00 you can think of it as type punning.. nil is both the empty list (a member of the class of lists) and false (a member of the class of boolean values) 02:20:34 ya I guess it refers to the multiple meanings / uses of NIL 02:20:44 and () 02:20:49 yeah, i suppose.. i usually think of type punning as casting one thing to another that happen to have the same layout 02:21:18 when you do stuff like (when list ...) you're punning :) 02:21:33 yeah, this is true indeed :) 02:21:56 (let ((list (list))) (when list ...)) <--- punny stuff 02:21:57 what is punning ? 02:22:40 sepult: the basis of most humour in english 02:22:57 "nil-punning" (treating an empty collection/seq and nil as the same thing) 02:23:04 (that was recursive) 02:23:07 I would like to have a macro that takes an input parameter and puts " around it, like `(list ",parm1" ",parm2") but the quotes inhibit ,parm1 expansion. What to do? 02:23:14 so dry 02:23:28 funny name - it's tongue in check 02:23:39 jsfb: that makes no sense 02:23:55 jsfb: what is the problem you're trying to solve 02:24:13 To have a form that goes (myfunc a b c) --> (myfunc "a" "b" "c") 02:24:14 jsfb: `(list ,(princ-to-string parm1) ...) 02:24:36 that's it I think... 02:24:51 *drewc* braces himself for the case question 02:25:33 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 02:25:51 wow, I just understood how call/cc works 02:26:02 nowhere_man: good! 02:26:16 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:16 nowhere_man: what did it for you? 02:26:31 the explanation in teach yourself scheme in fixnum days 02:27:02 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:32 nowhere_man: can you read http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/continuations.html and tell me if it's clear... it's unfinished, but meant to be an introduction to continuations for newbies 02:27:55 (for users of my new web framework, which is not meant to be 'expert only' like ucw) 02:28:06 (And i like to pretend i'm writing a book) 02:28:13 I suspect it's a FAQ, so is there a well-written rationale for why there's no call/cc in CL? 02:28:19 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:34 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:29:06 nowhere_man: yes : a) we don't need it. b) it's incompatible with other operators we rely on (c.f. unwind-protect) 02:29:11 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:29:58 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:30:42 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:30:58 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3DA1.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:31:06 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:31:18 drewc: thanks, I wanted a handy way to have a repl interface to test some forms that take strings as input parameters. 02:31:25 works great. 02:31:26 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:02 -!- chillywilly [~danielb@cpe-65-28-61-156.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:32 drewc: is it because of all the control flow operators we have in CL that we don't need call/cc? 02:35:41 nowhere_man: for the most part, yes. The other reason is that you can implement delimited continuations as a library... if you add that to our existing control flow operators, you can emulate full continuations. 02:35:58 full continuations are a big hammer 02:36:00 I thought the lack of CWCC was mostly about making compliers optimize better 02:36:16 whats so great about continuations? 02:36:32 shemale-magic: read that link i gave to nowhere_man 02:36:50 shemale-magic: http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/continuations.html 02:37:13 If can try to sum up: continuations make it easier / more natural to carry state from one step of an operation to another 02:37:25 rickmode: no, not quite. 02:38:01 hehe... well i'm just over half way through that page... 02:39:43 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:40:05 so like a form of interprocess communication? 02:40:12 different than pipes? 02:40:15 drewc: I'm a bit biased now that I mostly get call/cc, but I think your page also clearly explains the concept of continuation 02:40:20 This CADDR stuff seems dumb. I mean... overly dense function name. 02:40:37 history man, history 02:40:55 Darxus: then don't use it... it's quite nice when working with trees though. 02:41:19 nowhere_man: good, thanks for the feedback :) 02:41:43 shemale-magic: nothing to do with pipes or processes 02:42:09 Darxus: in any case, you should implement your own functional abstractions. 02:42:28 drewc: the exact thing that did it for me and also is in your page is the lexical idea of the continuation (taking the code around some piece of code and replacing the latter by an ellipsis) 02:42:36 Darxus: (defun person-address (p) (caddr p)) and there on use (person-address p) instead of (caddr p). 02:42:37 phf [~user@dhcp64-134-70-245.ssaf.orl.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:00 pjb: Cool. 02:43:14 Now, use caddr or third to implement person-address, it doesn't matter; in the rest of the program only use person-address. 02:43:16 nowhere_man: yeah, that's usually the clearest visual. Do you think i should introduce it earlier or is the timing ok? 02:43:36 -!- phf [~user@dhcp64-134-70-245.ssaf.orl.wayport.net] has left #lisp 02:44:02 Darxus: (defstruct (person :type list) name phone address) is even better! 02:44:53 Of course, when you're fed up defining the accessors yourself, you write a macro to do so, and when you're fed up writing your own macros, you learn how to use CL ones. 02:45:07 Darxus: the point is to work at the right level of abstraction... if you are supposed to be working with people, you shouldn't know that they are cons cells. 02:45:20 +1 pjb :) 02:45:33 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 02:45:36 but I _am_ a cons cell! 02:46:15 Phooodus: someday, your programmer might change your representation... point is it shouldn't matter if i only access you using the person protocol :) 02:46:19 I have a car, and my other car is a cdr. 02:47:04 drewc: the complexity on the page rapidly escalates... I get the gist though 02:48:21 whee (defun ... (lambda ... (funcall ... (lambda .. (funcall (funcall)))))) 02:48:22 rickmode: we're not making muffins here, a certain amount of complexity is to be expected :). Please feel free to ask me any questions you have remaining 02:48:28 i have a car too, my other car is just nil 02:48:50 Phooodus: error funcall expects at least one argument 02:49:03 yeah, missing more ...'s 02:49:10 *Phooodus* needs to play more Final Fantasy or something 02:49:14 Phooodus: really, How do you know you're made of cells? How do you know your cells are made of molecules? How do you know your molecules are made of atoms? How do you know your atoms are made of aglomerates of quartz? I mean, are you checking everyday what you're made of? God could perfectly well change your implementation without you realizing it, any time! 02:49:30 drewc: 1.3 gets hard to follow... maybe show the flow more? anyway - I'm not drawing the line from the example to where these continuation "frames" are held in the web case 02:49:41 I'm not made of cells, I'm made of a singe cell, with a car and cdr 02:49:49 I think I found an error in gentle lisp. Page 49, I think "CDAAR" should be "CAADR". I could totally be wrong. 02:49:57 On the internet, nobody knows you're a cons cell 02:50:08 rickmode: yeah, 1.3 is a little thin 02:50:14 drewc: timing seems right, but I must say I already knew about using continuations for the web 02:50:17 Phooodus: or a Zombie screen session 02:50:39 Oh, I have it backwards. Fuck. 02:50:40 nowhere_man: yeah, that's a good and a bad thing for my purposes i suppose :) 02:50:46 Lisp is insane. 02:51:04 CL is sanity, its all relative 02:51:10 Darxus: insanely powerful you mean? 02:51:30 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:37 Backwards! Why is it backwards? 02:52:26 Darxus: Lisp is all about thinking at multiple levels of abstractions... and to me it often feels like my brain gets turned inside out 02:52:27 backwards compared to what? 02:52:44 Compared to the order of parsing the cons tree. 02:52:54 p_l: DId you sort out a phone yet? 02:52:55 hunh? 02:52:57 Darxus: I don't see any occurence of CDAAR on page 49. 02:53:09 Guthur: yes - I'm not getting one for a while :D 02:53:26 -!- tankrim [~qsvans@c-eefce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 02:53:34 Darxus: any more context? 02:53:45 ah ok, I was hoping for some mobile CL experiences 02:53:47 Perhaps we don't have the same pagination. 02:53:55 pjb: I was wrong. I had it backwards. But I don't understand why lisp is backwards of what I expected. 02:54:11 In merging CAR and CDR, A is first, and D is rest. 02:54:21 ((blue cube) (red pyramid)) 02:54:36 cadr = car of the cdr 02:54:50 not "take the car, then take the cdr of that" 02:54:55 First tep to get to red, is a CDR of the list, then a CAR of the result, and a CAR of that result. 02:55:01 I have yet to use CADR etc, though I can now think of one time I could have 02:55:03 take the red pill! 02:55:04 So I expected it in that order, CDAAR. 02:55:13 Darxus: (cadr x) = (car (cdr x)) It is a textual abreviation. 02:55:44 (cdaar x) = (cdr (car (car x))), same ordering of the a's and d's 02:55:52 Darxus: anyways, when you read (car (cdr x)), you have to evaluate x before (cdr x) before (car (cdr x)), so you are already thinking backwards. 02:55:56 Guthur: use CADR on trees or other data made of conses, use SECOND on lists. 02:56:00 Thanks. Prehaps if I reread these couple pages a couple times... 02:56:28 Where does "cons" come from? 02:56:42 CONStruct 02:56:52 as in the verb 02:56:57 Thanks. Annoying they skipped that. 02:57:07 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:28 Darxus: you are just critical about everything aren't you! 02:58:15 sounds like that angst one gets just before enlightenment 02:59:05 -!- rickmode [~rick@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 03:01:07 Okay, CAR and CDR mergers are in english language order instead of.. flow chart / logic order. 03:01:25 I object. 03:01:29 darxus what problem are you solving? 03:01:41 shemale-magic: I'm just trying to grasp CAR/CDR mergers. 03:02:02 Just starting to learn Lisp. 03:02:15 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 03:02:17 Darxus: (defun kadr (x) (cdr (car x))) etc. 03:02:39 Darxus: write a function to generate these k...r functions. That'll make a good exercise for you. 03:02:47 pjb: Oh, right, thanks. 03:03:01 pjb: you mean (defun rdac (x) ... ) :) 03:03:07 I don't like all the graphical representations in Gentle. 03:03:23 Darxus: boxes and arrows, know them and love them, for they are lisp 03:03:28 Darxus: there are other lisp books. 03:03:30 Hah. 03:04:10 Darxus: but the boxes are used only at the beginning. 03:04:50 So it makes sense for me to think of these mergers from right to left? 03:05:07 First step is something like C..DR, then C.ADR.. ? 03:05:32 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:05:48 Darxus: just write them out in the order they appear.. CAAADR => (car (car (car (cdr ...)))) 03:05:52 -!- blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Quit: blackened`] 03:06:02 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:39 darxus do not try to map new stuff onto known ideas, open up a new blank database in our brain 03:06:53 er 03:06:55 your 03:07:10 skip the first C, then for every A or D you see add an open paren and C .. after the A or D add an R, a space, and recurse. 03:07:34 successful lisp by lamkins is good book I hear 03:09:18 I think I got it. 03:09:20 anything beyond two levels is confusing anyway so you can equate it to magic and move along 03:09:43 shemale-magic: And I appreciate that point, I realize I need to think about lisp differently. 03:10:10 Hah, a lisp programmer is confused by two levels of nesting? 03:10:29 no. *I* am 03:11:33 Oh, you're not a lisp programmer? 03:11:47 lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 03:12:03 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:13:04 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 03:13:44 brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:29 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:44 -!- Phooodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:20 noob, so i can relate to your problem :) 03:18:45 Damn I'm terrible at this. I guessed the CDR of (post no bills) would be "no" :( I immediately realized why I was wrong. Disappointing. 03:18:54 cmatei: Ah, okay. 03:20:14 darxus so what are you solving? 03:20:19 with lisp? 03:20:31 And it's going to take a while to think NIL instead of NULL. 03:20:35 shemale-magic: Just learning lisp. 03:21:14 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:21:24 Ah, they do explain the origin of the name "cons", just.. not when it's introduced. 03:22:40 Ugh. Surely perl's implimentation of lists of lists is better :P 03:23:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:24:05 ((blue cube) (red pyramid)) 03:25:06 So, what's wrong with that? 03:25:29 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.137.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:34 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:26:42 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:27:51 perl? 03:29:38 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:30:13 pjb: I'm working on it. 03:30:15 -!- Alabaman_ [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:31:01 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.88] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:31:14 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:31:21 test 03:31:29 wow, I'm unmuted! 03:31:37 (not that I have anything to say LOL) 03:32:02 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 03:32:13 oops, wrong channel 03:33:58 Nevermind, perl won't do what I want :P 03:35:31 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:37:29 Darxus: I don't see how a simply-linked list could be better implemented than by cons cells 03:37:45 in any course on data structures, that's how you implement them 03:38:03 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:38:03 be it in Lisp, C, ML or whatever the language used 03:40:02 ChorizoGrueso [~ChorizoGr@64.134.233.103] has joined #lisp 03:41:14 It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. What have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are si 03:41:14 ck of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 03:42:17 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:42:27 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:42:37 -!- ChorizoGrueso is now known as orgullocachanill 03:43:00 nowhere_man: It's not the linked list that bothers me, it's the referencing it through the CADR mess instead of ()[1][2] type notation. 03:43:29 there's no mess, there are only two functions: 03:43:32 car and cdr 03:43:46 they have these names for historical reasons, so you may prefer 03:43:49 first/rest 03:43:51 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66120c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 03:43:53 I know. 03:44:17 c****r functions are just tools built on that 03:45:18 car = "contents of the address register", cdr = "contents of the data register" on the machine where it was originally developed I think 03:45:39 (first x) and (rest x) are certainly clear aren't they? 03:45:55 Darxus: what prevents you to write a function to reference the items by index? (defun nth-item (n list) (if (zerop n) (car list) (nth-item (1- n) (cdr list)))) so you can write (let ((list '((1 2 3 4) (5 6 7 8) (9 a b c)))) (nth-item 2 (nth-item 1 list))) 03:47:18 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 03:47:24 pjb: and it's not like CL would already provide FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, FOURTH, FIFTH, SIXTH, SEVENTH, EIGHTH, NINTH, TENTH 03:47:31 and their generalization NTH 03:48:02 pjb: That looks a lot more complicated than perl's (('val1','val2'),('val3',val4'))[1][1] to get to val4. 03:48:24 nowhere_man: : Of course, when you're fed up defining the accessors yourself, you write a macro to do so, and when you're fed up writing your own macros, you learn how to use CL ones. 03:48:36 pjb: right 03:48:46 Heh. 03:49:09 -!- orgullocachanill [~ChorizoGr@64.134.233.103] has quit [K-Lined] 03:49:30 I missed a single quote. 03:49:32 Darxus: actually, perl is much more complex here. You have to introduce the syntax and semantics of [], and a lot of useless syntax such as comma, and why can't we write [1,2] instead of [1][2]? 03:49:52 pjb: I completely agree. 03:49:55 My frustration is finding a primitive for some purpose I am pretty sure is in there... some names are really odd 03:50:04 In Lisp there's no 'why'. If you want to write (list-ref list 1 2) instead (list-ref (list-ref list 1) 2) you can easily define it so. 03:50:48 jsfb: well, if you don't have any purpose more precise than 'some purpose' you can hardly find a primitive matching it precisely. 03:52:26 well, there's always the DO macro in package DWIM 03:52:50 "some purpose" is a place holder and says nothing about specificity of that purpose 03:53:21 jsfb: that's why we cannot give any specific primitive corresponding to it. 03:54:01 I'm referring to the standard and "self directed" lookups etc. Experience solves this but it takes time. Lisp is huge in that regard 03:54:44 jsfb: reimplementing standard functions is a rite of passage, don't worry about it :) 03:54:52 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:54:54 I end up writing something myself, and then some time in the future find out there is a primitive for it with some strange name etc. 03:55:04 see above :D 03:55:18 I had no idea lists were created with links/references before today :( 03:55:28 But after reading this it's obvious that's how everything must do it. 03:55:29 yeah, I get that. I'm just saying it's a pain to suspect it's in the toolbox but ya can't find it 03:55:37 Darxus: have you never used a linked list before? 03:55:42 Darxus: be thankful to lisp, you're learning something! 03:55:47 drewc: I have never implimented one. 03:56:05 jsfb: why do you think there's #lisp? 03:56:20 Really the only time I used a non-high level language was one C class in college. 03:56:27 Maybe I used link lists in that. Don't remember. 03:57:57 I will tap experienced lispers if really needed time wise, but that's rarely an issue in my case but I got a good answer just today actually 03:58:15 Darxus: you mean you remember the time and space complexities of the data structures you use without having a clue about their implementation?! 03:58:16 Darxus: You weren't taught basic data structures in college? 03:58:24 I don't think I could... 03:58:36 pkhuong: I don't remember. 03:58:44 I only did 1.5 years before I dropped out. 03:59:29 nowhere_man: No, I mean I had no idea how they were implimented. I didn't know the time and space complexities. 04:01:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:01:44 (cons 'one 'two) 04:01:44 (ONE . TWO) 04:01:52 Heh, I look forward to understanding what that actually did. 04:02:05 nowhere_man: you were asking why CL doesn't have call/cc .. one of the best arguments against full continuations is that two extensions that use continuations are not really composable. 04:02:17 (I realize I'm supposed to cons stuff to nil to create a list, or to cons it to an existing list) 04:02:28 nowhere_man: i just ran into this issue myself, but since my continuations are delimited, i can throw in a RESET 04:03:11 Darxus: what does CONS do? 04:03:59 drewc: do you know any good example of two incompatible uses of continuations? 04:04:35 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:05:44 nowhere_man: well, the one i just ran into is one.... hard to explain, but i was using continuations to implement a loop... so for this current bit of code, the continuation was itself (it's a loop). inside that loop i wanted to use another continuation using extension, the one in the web framework proper. 04:06:21 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:07:10 but that extension expected the current continuation to be one that returns, not one that looped. 04:07:20 so i blow my stack 04:07:34 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:07:54 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-22-137.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:06 Any minion hackers here? 04:08:12 nowhere_man: i don't know if that makes sense to you, but that's the kind of thing that can happen 04:09:04 drewc: I'm a bit puzzled by your example, because in call/cc you seem to need to explicitely provide continuations 04:09:48 minion: logs 04:09:49 nowhere_man: yes, but the extensions you build using call/cc usually try and hide that fact 04:09:50 gigamonkey: depends on your definition of "minion hackers", I suppose 04:09:54 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 04:10:11 pjb: cons creates a cons cell with a car pointing to the value of the first argument, and a cdr pointing to the value of the second argument. Which should be null if it's not an existing list..... 04:10:29 Well, my question is, is there a way to get a dump of the parts of minion's brain that don't come from Cliki pages? 04:10:47 Darxus: the second argument need not be anything special 04:11:06 nowhere_man: Yeah, but there needs to be a null to terminate the list... 04:11:10 you are mixing up the definition of CONS and one of its possible uses 04:11:20 So what happens when a list isn't null terminated? 04:11:25 Darxus: a cons is just a pair 04:11:26 it's not a list 04:11:32 What is it? 04:11:32 Darxus: No, it just creates a record containing two fields, a car and a cdr. 04:11:33 a list IS null terminated 04:11:33 Darxus: then it's an improper list 04:11:40 Theres no constraint on the values of these fields. 04:11:54 nowhere_man: careful ... the spec defines improper lists as lists too 04:12:02 drewc: true 04:12:03 Hehe. 04:12:08 You can represent lists by chaining cons cells by their cdr, but there are other ways to represent lists. 04:12:21 Darxus: you could implement cartesian or polar points on a plane with cons cells 04:12:30 nowhere_man: Ah, okay, thanks. 04:12:31 However, this is the way that is choosen by lisp to represent to lists it uses to represent its source code. 04:13:31 pjb: and those lists represent trees. ;-) 04:15:06 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:17 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:18:24 gigamonkey: why no lisp startup? 04:20:00 And the dot notation is the true one, ( a . ( b . ( c . nil ))) <=> ( a b c) so it's easier to write the latter 04:20:36 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:20:41 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:39 shemale-magic: You mean, why haven't I started a Lisp startup? 04:23:55 Got to the end of chapter 1 :P 04:24:12 yes 04:24:29 lisp has advantage over php ruby etc so why not? 04:24:32 Oh, no, I've been in 2. 04:25:35 shemale-magic: I find the "startup" part much harder than "lisp" 04:26:05 my troll-y senses are tingling 04:26:19 shemale-magic: what p_l said, more or less. 04:26:25 shemale-magic, what do you mean by "Lisp startup"? 04:26:33 I've been in three startups and don't really hanker to do another. 04:26:38 and what would be, say a "C++ startup"? 04:26:58 startups eat your soul :-] 04:27:04 shemale-magic: There's no such thing as "lisp startup", IMHO 04:27:04 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:27:30 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:27:43 shemale-magic: you can have "webapp-oriented startup", "design startup" etc., and lisp might be one of the tools 04:28:09 hehe its a bit like a 'power drill startup' 04:28:24 lisp startup is one that uses lisp for craetion of the software it sells 04:29:00 drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:11 Guthur: Yeah, except the "business" aspect of the startup changes it from "flip the switch on the power drill and carefully control the mount" to difficulty level of pre-flight preparation of Space Shuttle and in-flight control of it (without computer) after you incorporate ;-) 04:31:06 I read an interesting thing about the space program and soldering techniques 04:31:44 After training their engineers to solder properly NASA got a significant weight saving 04:31:58 let me see if I can quickly find the figure 04:32:19 Guthur: an airline saved tens of thousands dollars on fuel costs per machine by removing a single olive from each salad 04:32:38 lol thats bean counting at its best 04:32:58 Guthur: bean counting at its worst is probably Space Shuttle, unfortunately 04:33:25 cools` [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:26 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:33:43 ah it just says several hundred pounds of takeoff weight 04:33:48 meh 04:33:54 due to bean-counting and "executive meddling", it failed all of its goals except making "reusable space vehicle" 04:34:51 otoh, when the project got well on its way, USA lost any real push for space exploration 04:35:06 no way 04:35:18 lack of competition possibly 04:35:33 Guthur: Moon Race was a competition of pride 04:35:38 indeed 04:35:50 we need the good old USSR back hehe 04:36:01 you may not like that comment being polish 04:36:02 sorry 04:36:07 never thought 04:36:22 NASA doesn't have any unifying goal nor push. The US government isn't interested (despite whatever they might claim) 04:36:29 very much tongue in cheek 04:36:30 Guthur: nah, not a problem with me :) 04:36:42 -!- cools [~user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:58 also, USSR had freaking good (and post-soviet countries still have) engineers, especially in space engineering 04:37:50 yeah they had some 40 ton tanks that looks ed hard to make 04:37:54 someone needs to come up with a space bases IED detector, they might spend the money then, hehe 04:37:55 but somehow millions starved 04:37:56 strange 04:38:05 shemale-magic: politics 04:38:14 bases/based 04:38:38 NASA should be colonising Mars. 04:38:44 i think you might need in the order of billions to do something significant in space 04:38:46 shemale-magic: at the same time, USA loved playing with "freeing" other countries, usually leaving them worse for wear after being used as bargaining chips 04:39:01 Or, somebody. Probably nobody having anything to do with the US federal government. Bloated crap. 04:39:08 p_l: hey! we still do that! 04:40:07 gigamonkey: Yeah. That's why my personal policy is to check any deal with USA >40 times, searching for several hidden layers of crap, then ensuring that you have a WMD stashed somewhere as "anti-backstab solution" 04:40:12 ;-) 04:40:13 usa invented lisp 04:40:16 thats good right? 04:40:54 Very patriotic 04:40:57 I am amused that lisp outputs fractions. 04:41:05 shemale-magic: McCarthy, not USA. USA is a country, which by itself didn't change anything 04:41:35 p_l: You have a WMD stashed somewhere? Or you don't personally deal with the US government? 04:41:41 Darxus: the second 04:41:45 Hehe. 04:41:52 in case the second stops being true, I'm getting a WMD 04:42:01 NNPT be damned 04:42:15 You could try a Saddam, and pretend you have one 04:42:24 didn't seem to work very well though 04:42:34 Hah, I get the topic. 04:43:03 Guthur: nah, non-uranium/plutonium based low-yield nukes set for cascaded hi-altitude detonation will be enough :> 04:43:56 why don't countries get in an energy producing race not an arms race 04:44:25 obama would be nicer if he mandated lots of energy production 04:44:40 no one wants cheap energy 04:44:45 shemale-magic: because big energy players (USA, OPEC, etc.) are not interested in getting energy transfer unit other than crude oil 04:44:49 no one that can produce it anyway 04:45:19 USA also scored high on the "idiotic approach to nuclear power" scale 04:45:20 I heard about salt liquid nuc reactor 04:45:34 The universe is bursting with the stuff though, just harnessing it is problematic 04:45:53 shemale-magic: plus, some newest energy related stuff is basically a pocket-sized WMD 04:46:09 oh did you see those pocket reactors 04:46:32 hehe, about the size of garden shed (above ground) 04:46:36 Guthur: no. But I read about capacitors that stored more energy per kilogram mass than you get from hydrogen fusion 04:46:39 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:46:43 link 04:46:50 I also read about fly wheels 04:47:01 ahem 04:47:20 hehe I wondered how long a mod would take to charge in 04:47:27 boo 04:47:27 shemale-magic: I don't have the link right now, it's fresh thing, not yet at that level (that density was the possible achievable maximum). Anyway, EOT 04:47:33 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:47:36 *drewc* glares 04:47:46 [shields up] 04:47:48 The way lisp does arithmatic reminds me of RPN. I've never really used RPN. Are they basically the same? 04:48:35 shemale-magic: anyway, regarding startups and lisp - lisp is just a tool. It doesn't make the startup. What makes the startup is idea & tons of hard work and sweat 04:48:45 Darxus: they are the same in that they are both notations that differ from infix... 04:48:51 *p_l* failed the "hard work" part 04:49:08 drewc: How are they different? 04:49:09 p_l: you had the sweat covered? 04:49:28 p_l: what did your startup do? 04:49:32 Guthur: not really, but "homeless" yes 04:49:41 lithper2_: not mine 04:49:54 lithper2_: I was just an employee 04:50:01 i see 04:50:02 but I was sole programmer 04:50:18 and let's say, I failed @ work organization :) 04:50:27 that's a lot of pressure to deliver. 04:50:30 Darxus: one is a prefix notation, one is a postfix notation, and RPN does not use parens 04:51:16 oh how did it get to 4:51 am 04:51:21 later guys 04:51:26 i've been "the programmer" for quite a number of startups. 04:51:29 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 04:51:38 i always say i'll never do it again... 04:51:38 drewc: Thanks. 04:51:46 but here i am, in the midst on one. 04:51:55 I wonder how you do math without parens :P Oh, with a stack I guess. *Twitch* No need to go into that.... 04:52:03 of one* 04:52:25 shemale-magic: anyway, regarding Lisp and startups - right now, if the product is either internal, running on your own servers, or a big product that runs on customer's server, I'd probably go with Lisp. I wouldn't, yet, go with something that requires end-user delivery without support contracts 04:52:30 drewc: is it announced? 04:52:44 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-206-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:58 lithper2_: nay, stealth mode 04:54:00 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:54:21 support contracts 04:54:22 ? 04:54:54 drewc: if not a secret, is CL heavily utilized? 04:54:56 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:55:26 shemale-magic: meaning I've got my (or trained & licensed by me) people doing paid support directly on-site, not as some small "just install and run" package 04:55:59 lithper2_: of course, almost exclusively... i don't usually do non-lisp stuff. 04:56:10 shemale-magic: Plus at least one of my ideas that would fit for such delivery (a game) might be hurt by FFI performance... 04:56:28 (which is something I'm going to tackle with CL, but not now) 04:56:42 -!- lpolzer [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-232-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:56:54 hm 04:57:32 Then there are other ways to *use* Lisp in a startup. 04:57:37 yeah 04:57:57 The extreme version being something like what Naughty Dog did with GOAL. 04:58:13 gigamonkey: actually, something like GOAL is part of my project list :D 04:58:14 Where they wrote a compiler in Common Lisp for a Lispy language that they used to write part of a video game. 04:58:38 hm 04:58:42 ahaas used lisp to write a compiler for a flash game, IIRC 04:58:47 naughty dog made $$? 04:58:53 shemale-magic: definitely 04:58:57 Yeah. But they also stopped using GOAL, as far as I know. 04:58:59 A decompiler, actually. 04:59:00 what game was biggest? 04:59:02 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 04:59:16 Jak & Daxter was the one they used GOAL on. 04:59:17 gigamonkey: afaik they stopped when they got bought 04:59:19 so what did they end up with? 04:59:27 C++, no doubt. 04:59:33 shemale-magic: they ended with whatever Sony was using 04:59:37 hm 04:59:53 I'm working on a game in Lisp now, but it will be delivered over the tubes. 04:59:56 Sony supposedly was rather flabbergasted that Naughty Dog IP was basically unusable to them 04:59:57 c++ heh, I heard some 'things' about it 05:00:04 ip? 05:00:09 intellectual property. 05:00:17 i.e. the code. 05:00:20 austinh: ahh. http://puzzlefarter.com/ <---- for those who have not yet had the pleasure, puzzle farter FTW! 05:00:25 why unusable? they unwilling to hire or train any lisperS? 05:00:36 Probably. 05:00:38 austinh: cool! 05:00:54 Plus, they presumably had their on toolchain, process, etc. based on C++. 05:01:33 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:40 why go to such extremes though? 05:01:59 I used lisp for some backend stuff for puzzlefarter and to obfuscate the swfs. 05:02:05 seems that big corps get stuck using whatever is considered commonly good and are unwilling to adapt 05:02:18 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:02:36 lithper2_: IIUC, sony's toolchain was (and still is) shit. 05:03:56 I almost did some linux stuff for sony imagineering 05:04:11 they use some linux desktops, which I think is cool 05:04:42 I did a miles per gallon function in lisp! :P 05:05:10 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:05:24 shemale-magic: or they have really awful internal programming teams 05:05:37 probably old crap 05:05:55 then management forces them to incorpate odl crap instead of solving core problems with new code and ideas 05:05:55 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66196b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 05:06:03 *_3b__* is the one trying to write compiler for flash games... distracted playing star trek online instead at the moment though :p 05:06:14 lol 05:06:16 *p_l* still can't understand how can one make a Java app that requires exact *build* of VM, not working on any other 05:06:17 klingons! 05:06:31 yeah that is kooky 05:06:34 however, I had personally seen such app at work 05:06:46 I dont get how tomcat can't do what mod_rewrite does 05:07:00 thus making performance 8x better by getting rid of apache front 05:07:06 There's also just the dynamic of any acquisition: the acquirer is in some sense "more successful" so it's hard for them to swallow the idea that they should change to do things like the acquiree. 05:07:10 since tomcat now as fast for static as apache 05:07:26 good point 05:07:28 ego 05:07:30 Though of course, they acquired the acquiree, exactyl because it could do something they couldn't. 05:07:43 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:49 Man, that punctuation got away from me. 05:07:52 And spelling. 05:08:03 I saw that after fox aquired strategicdatacorp to do the ads for myspace 05:08:17 fox audience network morons were trying to tell sdc howto run thier op 05:08:31 its liek look bud one of us is serving all ads for myspace adn one si not 05:09:29 _3b__: which game are playing? 05:09:36 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-107-23.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:54 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:10:48 <_3b__> nowhere_man: 'star trek online' 05:12:07 -!- das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:13:03 I am disappointed with the precision of pi in gnu common lisp. 05:13:49 Darxus: presumably that's the most precise value that can be represented in a double float. What language do you use that has a more precise value? 05:14:07 Whoops, missed the "gnu" in there. 05:14:16 What is it in GCL? 05:14:20 <_3b__> doesn't clisp do better if you turn up long float precision? 05:15:29 Anything is possible with CLISP. 05:15:43 > pi 05:15:43 3.1415926535897932385L0 05:15:54 My disappointment is not.. practical. 05:16:27 At what point is that precision insufficient for your purposes? Have you actually calculated? 05:16:29 Some day I should work out how much precision you need to have precision within one foot at the edge of the galaxy. 05:16:43 kencausey: No, my disappointment is just that I know more :) 05:17:14 Darxus: You'll have to recompute it. (* 4 (atan 1l0)), for instance. 05:17:34 Darxus: Funny you mention that, that was just mentioned on reddit in the last week, to the extent I remember that is sufficient precision for the entire galaxy ;) 05:17:39 I'll see if I can find the link 05:17:46 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:18:05 Darxus: I suspect that space, thanks to being not exactly flat, will make your calculation inaccurate no matter how many digits of precision you use 05:18:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi#Computation_in_the_computer_age 05:18:59 my guess may be wrong, off the top of my head I can't relate the size of our galaxy to the estimations of the size of the universe 05:20:32 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:20:42 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:47 "a physicist needs only 39 digits of Pi to make a circle the size of the observable universe accurate to one atom of hydrogen" 05:20:50 Haha 05:21:08 I know 52. 05:21:50 Bed time. Good night. 05:22:05 Shouldn't that be "precise to one atom of hydrogen"? 05:22:42 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-107-23.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:23:20 *austinh* has been enjoying a Lisp binge for the past couple weeks. 05:25:26 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 05:29:51 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-22-137.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:30:06 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:33:37 mikezor_ [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:35:20 <_3b__> Darxus: (setf (ext:long-float-digits) 100) then pi = 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028842L0 in clisp 05:35:36 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:58 -!- mikezor [~mikael@c-e3e970d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:37:10 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:40:52 -!- aking [~aking@67.23.13.119] has left #lisp 05:48:46 nunb [~nandan@59.178.169.45] has joined #lisp 05:50:09 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 05:56:29 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:58:37 -!- azanar [~azanar@67-134-197-171.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: azanar] 06:03:14 naten [~naten@24-117-139-61.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:48 -!- naten [~naten@24-117-139-61.cpe.cableone.net] has left #lisp 06:08:36 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:08:38 slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 06:10:17 brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:11:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 06:11:52 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:11:55 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:45 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 06:18:36 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:22:11 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:22:30 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 06:23:14 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:25:06 Good morning! 06:25:26 -!- nunb [~nandan@59.178.169.45] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:26:17 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-30-238.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:28:21 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-71-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:33:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 06:34:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:34:48 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:37:00 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:37:59 ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 06:38:00 lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 06:40:20 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:41:08 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:41:22 good morning 06:42:30 hello kami 06:49:45 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:50:28 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:53:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.8] has joined #lisp 06:54:01 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.8] has left #lisp 06:55:16 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 06:59:29 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:00:41 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:01:06 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: work] 07:02:05 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04:14 -!- ivan_chernetsky [~ivan@195.222.66.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:05:53 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:11:01 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:10 Risky_ [~Risky@p4016-ipad24osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:13:18 -!- Risky_ [~Risky@p4016-ipad24osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:14:10 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:17:19 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:18:54 tarbo [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:55 -!- tarbo [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:55 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 07:23:11 ivan_chernetsky [~ivan@195.222.64.215] has joined #lisp 07:26:06 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:27:44 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:09 mihk [~mihk@xdsl-78-35-150-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:55 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 07:35:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:39:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 07:41:39 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 07:42:45 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:42 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44:09 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:44:56 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:46:39 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:48:50 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:51:26 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:59:13 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 07:59:20 -!- raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:01:17 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:25 [1]Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-23-119.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-32-142.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:03:52 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:42 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:06:07 -!- Guest40418 [~cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:06:26 orgullocachanill [~ChorizoGr@ip72-207-23-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:28 It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. What have the niggers in New Orleans d 08:06:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-24-30.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:30 one? 08:06:32 If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 08:06:47 orgullocachanill, excuse me can I ask you a favour? 08:06:53 yes 08:06:59 it is spelled favor 08:07:12 orgullocachanill, would you please stop linking these because it's off-topic.. and we already all saw it many times 08:09:34 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 08:09:53 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 08:11:41 -!- drewc has set mode +b orgullocachanill!*@* 08:14:03 -!- drewc has set mode +b *!*ChorizoGr@* 08:14:26 jan247_ [~jan247@120.28.116.117] has joined #lisp 08:14:26 -!- jan247_ [~jan247@120.28.116.117] has quit [Changing host] 08:14:26 jan247_ [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:14:45 ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:14:49 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 08:16:09 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:40 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:18:41 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 08:19:17 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:24:14 tensorpudding [~user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 08:26:16 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:40:28 qwertycute [~j@137.186.34.139] has joined #lisp 08:41:09 Guest15170 [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:58 -!- Guest15170 [~me@pool-173-75-5-88.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:52:19 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:53:29 Anyone knows what the purpose of this "frigg" utility bot is? 08:57:51 <[df]> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#freenodeconnect 08:57:59 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:00:44 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:01:42 tarbo_ [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 09:01:43 CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.4.190] has joined #lisp 09:03:03 [df]: thanks 09:06:03 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757d88.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 -!- tarbo_ [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:10:30 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:11:19 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:49 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:51 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:15:12 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:20:34 -!- mihk [~mihk@xdsl-78-35-150-151.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 09:20:59 majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:57 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 09:23:54 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-118-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24:19 mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:04 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:31:12 Spaghettini [~Spaghetti@vaxjo7.250.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:35 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:35:42 fiveop [~fiveop@g229144212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:15 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: * I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *] 09:42:09 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 09:43:05 ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 -!- mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:46:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:47:41 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:00 unicode [~user@95.214.62.110] has joined #lisp 09:48:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:49:31 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-118bgr6.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: erg] 09:49:57 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-167-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:50:31 -!- snorble__ is now known as snorble 09:50:45 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 09:52:13 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:54:38 gibranian [~gibranian@88.238.45.215] has joined #lisp 09:54:56 TR2N [email@89-180-217-250.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:00:29 somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:02:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:02:40 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-10201.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:25 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:42 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:09:16 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:57 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:18 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 10:14:26 Davidbrcz_ [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:14:59 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-197-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:29 -!- Davidbrcz_ [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:15:39 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:17:19 jmbr [~jmbr@96.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:21:16 kenyao [~kenyao@58.248.188.152] has joined #lisp 10:22:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:26:43 -!- kenyao [~kenyao@58.248.188.152] has quit [Quit: My God! Gone...] 10:28:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.92.1] 10:28:51 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:29:08 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:35:11 -!- gibranian [~gibranian@88.238.45.215] has left #lisp 10:35:17 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 10:36:20 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:38:41 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:38:51 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:14 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 10:45:02 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:45:21 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082EE4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:51 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:47:18 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Quit: later] 10:47:27 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:25 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B427.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:49:10 prxq [~mommer@g230129231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:16 hi 10:51:20 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:52:36 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-037-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:35 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 11:01:18 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:06 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:02:12 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:06:34 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:09:05 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 11:10:04 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:11:11 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:11:32 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has left #lisp 11:12:40 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:21 -!- Foofie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:15:30 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:16:38 Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:21 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-153.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:21:36 DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 11:21:55 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-229-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:23:37 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:25:10 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 11:25:12 -!- Krystof changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.35, ELS2010 deadline extension, CLSQL 4.3.0, ABCL 0.18.1 11:25:32 programmanlble programminglang 11:26:21 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com 11:26:24 go away, gavino 11:28:05 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:31:56 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:34:04 BrettS [~kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:19 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:20 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 11:34:30 good, sbcl releases are getting more and more tolerable 11:34:40 I hope that there aren't too many critical bugs in it 11:36:12 any official word on the osx backtrace business? 11:36:27 (or should there be an official bug report?) 11:37:51 we're a bunch of ragtag developers, we don't to official 11:38:05 use a real OS :-) 11:38:58 (probably related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/505200, which happens on linux too, sadly) 11:39:26 *Krystof* vanishes in a puff of musicianship 11:40:30 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: lukego] 11:42:52 benny [~benny@i577A875A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:39 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 11:49:22 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:54:30 -!- shemale-magic [~gav@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:55:28 -!- prxq [~mommer@g230129231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:56:34 jmbr_ [~jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:58:49 rwiker [~rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:42 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@96.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:01:25 md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 12:02:09 hi, in SBCL, how do I get the size of the instance of defstruct? 12:02:45 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 12:03:17 rwiker_ [~rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:40 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:07:43 what does "size" mean to you? 12:08:35 Krystof: you have triggered a (drunk?) gavino-flood on comp.lang.lisp. thanks! 12:09:43 is gavino drunk? the latest posts look quite similar to his normal level 12:10:11 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:10:17 lichtblau: the sum of the sizes of objects where structure is the "root" 12:11:11 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 12:11:12 md1: okay. SBCL doesn't have a built-in way to measure that. 12:11:16 lichtblau: I'd be more interested in shallow sizes; I'm also interested in getting the exact phsycal layout. I'd really like to see both points in the Slime Inspector. Guiding pointers into code appreciated 12:12:07 I once built a little program called heapgraph (IIRC) that could show objects graphs for SBCL. I also included size information. 12:12:41 lichtblau: yes, I used it couple of times 12:13:12 lichtblau: but it scan's the whole space 12:13:24 scans 12:13:41 Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@PPPoE-78-29-98-91.san.ru] has joined #lisp 12:13:42 -!- Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@PPPoE-78-29-98-91.san.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:13 I can see adapting it to follow the references from structure slots until some depth limit is reached 12:14:18 that would do that 12:14:24 mmm... clbuild install commontqt breaks on editor-hints dependency... anyone seen this before? 12:14:26 you did? Nice to hear. Don't know what you mean "scans the whole space". It walks the graph starting from the root you specify. 12:14:52 thijso: Are you on clbuild head? 12:14:58 There are various built-in heuristics to make it stop at uninteresting points though, which you could customize. 12:15:19 lichtblau: I used it too once back when you hacked it up. Where is it located? 12:15:23 tcr: think so.. did a darcs pull 12:15:51 hmm, but as I understood, build-reference-map is needed for querying later 12:15:54 thijso: Could you paste the breakage error? 12:16:08 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:16:09 and I see that it uses map-allocated-objects which scans the dynamic space 12:16:19 tcr: "Error: cannot download unknown project editor-hints" 12:16:54 thijso: Ok that sounds very clbuild-specific; so it's not me screwing up with some repo 12:17:01 hmm, I see using referencing-objects-of, and following that 12:17:02 md1: OK. You aren't referring to my code. Sounds rather like something from attila and/or jsnell. 12:17:39 ah, sorry for confusion then 12:18:00 thijso: something broken there. dependencies refers to editor-hints; the project is called named-readtables. 12:18:12 thijso: I suggest saying "no" to the question about installing dependencies as a workaround. 12:18:41 lichtblau: ah, ok. thanks. Or maybe substitute named-readtables for editor-hints in the deps file? 12:19:41 yeah, well, except that the dependencies are auto-generated. So unless the file just needs to be regenerated, this needs more investigation. 12:19:56 the other qt lib (smokeqt? can't remember the name now) isn't available through clbuild, right? Any idea why? 12:20:22 lichtblau: is this what you wrote? http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/dot/graph.lisp 12:20:22 thijso: the other one is cl-smoke. I'm planning on adding it soon. 12:20:30 lichtblau: ok, for now I just did a manual change in my file and that works.. for now 12:20:43 lichtblau: great! 12:20:58 md1: your google fu seems to be much stronge than mine! 12:21:06 :) 12:21:07 wasn't there talk of merging the two project a while back? Or are they too different? 12:21:12 thijso: cl-smoke only started supporting asdf out-of-the-box in december. Since then I've tried building it, but failed. Tobias recently updated some stuff, so I need to try again. 12:21:27 -!- rwiker_ [~rwiker@73.84-48-40.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:22:49 xokres [ola@d01-0124b.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #lisp 12:23:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:24:31 lichtblau: Can you remember any particular kludges in that code that would prevent it to become part of sbcl? 12:24:50 anything more severe than "needs some polishing" 12:25:32 well, a "shallow-object-size-in-bytes" function could be in SBCL, and just needs more polishing. 12:26:24 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:26:33 Walking a graph of objects (and arbitrarily deciding where to stop because it's getting too low-level-ish) is fundamentally a kludge, so I don't know if there's any level of polishing that could make it good enough. 12:28:11 *lichtblau* is currently (trying to be) toying around with Qt on windows, stumbling from road block to road block 12:28:13 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]] 12:28:21 "real estate apartment for rent at mingw.org" 12:28:35 As if finding the right msys binary wasn't hard enough already. 12:28:55 lichtblau: I'd like if the Slime inspector showed the shallow size by default, and there was a button to calculate the size deeply. 12:30:25 sounds nice. I never really got into the slime inspector, but would love an inspector library that lists object contents portably and that sort of thing, so that different UIs could be built on top of that easily. 12:30:57 The inspector code in sb-aclrepl was pretty SBCL-specific and I broke parts of it when making it portable for PREPL. 12:31:28 the swank code could probably be used as a starting point 12:31:47 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:31:49 hm or actually, just to take some code from it 12:32:25 I agree with you that it's something nice to have, and I'll include it as a TODO for editor-hints 12:33:31 lichtblau: ok, I am using heapgraph::dump-object, but it does not show the fixnum slots, any way how to do that? Is it achievable using the customizer argument to dump-object? 12:34:04 md1: the size of fixnums is included in the size of the object containing them. 12:34:37 Once arithmetic overflows to a bignum, you'll see the corresponding growth in the graph. 12:36:34 ok 12:37:07 HG` [~HG@xdslec141.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:26 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 12:38:26 -!- konr [~user@187.88.144.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:45 -!- [1]Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-23-119.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:43 antifuchs: that hockey video you reposted is from a local kid here. 12:40:33 -!- BrettS [~kirin@c-24-20-88-97.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:41:15 kwinz3 [kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 12:41:24 Xach: it's a pretty awesome goal 12:42:44 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 12:43:42 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 12:43:56 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-158.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:46:04 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:46:56 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:24 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-153.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:48:12 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.8] has joined #lisp 12:48:51 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:50:21 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:58 milanj [~milan@93.86.187.162] has joined #lisp 12:51:44 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:52:42 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:53:22 wentbackward [~wentbackw@2002:da66:b976:0:216:e6ff:fed8:1211] has joined #lisp 12:56:57 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:57:46 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslec141.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:58:17 Hi all, I'm trying to optimise a function in sbcl. There could be floats passed in or a real and a float or even two integers 12:58:21 wentbackward pasted "round to nearest" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94177 12:59:12 I just wondered if anyone could advise what I should declare for the types 12:59:32 or some other mechanism such as methods 12:59:49 *_3b__* would say just inline it, if call sites will have declared types 12:59:58 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:01:17 ok, could do that. It's not called in many places 13:01:46 so, how do you know that it should be optimized? 13:01:58 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 13:02:03 I profiled the app on a small batch of data 13:02:05 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:17 and this fn stood out by a mile 13:03:41 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:03:56 <_3b__> if you are worried about size, inline + notinline around the definition, and declare it inline locally at sites where it needs to be fast 13:10:27 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:32 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:14:23 lispm [~joswig@g224123109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:47 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:25 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:17:22 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:51 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.62.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:18:20 Thanks _3b__ It's moved to the insignificant pile now 13:19:41 marcob [~marco@host239-195-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:20:21 wgl [~wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 13:21:45 *wgl* checks 13:22:08 minion: chant 13:23:03 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:24:57 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:28:04 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:21 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:39:36 prxq [~mommer@g230129231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:55 ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.1] has joined #lisp 13:41:12 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-018-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:06 fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:43:10 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:21 hello 13:43:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [~algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 13:43:44 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 13:43:57 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.8] has joined #lisp 13:44:01 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:44:44 there's no way to tell whether the current condition was signalled using ERROR, WARN or SIGNAL, is there? 13:47:17 *mathrick* is generally not happy with the introspective capabilities of ANSI CL regarding the condition system 13:48:50 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:49:01 hi 13:49:09 hi Xach 13:49:09 sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:30c4:2aab:b1dc:3cd4] has joined #lisp 13:49:45 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:49:49 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32DA11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32DA11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:49:49 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 13:51:14 demmeln1 [~Adium@188.110.166.58] has joined #lisp 13:51:50 Guthur [~Michael@host81-132-171-8.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:54 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-037-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:04 mathrick: It sounds like you're abusing it 13:55:13 and I think you actually want something else 13:55:58 (you cannot signal a condition using error, it's still signal underneath) 13:56:21 tcr: abusing or not, it crumbles horribly when you try to do anything with the system itself and not just use it 13:56:33 tcr: but ERROR is defined to enter debugger and SIGNAL isn't 13:56:37 and you just don't know 13:56:55 yes but the two things are orthogonal to each other 13:57:02 that's a fundamental property of CL's condition system 13:57:25 and moreover ERROR is defined in this gross way where it completely ignores everything else which says whether and how you're supposed to enter the debugger 13:57:46 hm? 13:58:30 it says that very specifically, by using invoke-debugger 13:58:34 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:00 tcr: I must've confused myself on that last point 13:59:22 which you can even hook into via debugger-hook 13:59:23 but still, they're not orthogonal for the user, and as I said it crumbles where you need to do anything touching the system itself 14:00:22 well what do you wanna do? 14:00:24 which includes extending it and doing something which works similarly 14:00:34 tcr: same as usual, still working on cross-thread signalling 14:00:56 yeah what's your problem though? I have done that too to some extent 14:02:00 You should have sticked to my advice, btw. :-) 14:02:04 tcr: I have a worker thread W and controller C. Now if W signals, I want to marshall that to C and let it handle it, with appropriate restarts from W being mirrored on C's side 14:02:09 tcr: but that doesn't help me 14:02:19 well, not fully 14:02:49 jmbr__ [~jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:03:09 Yes, where's your problem now? 14:03:10 tcr: the problem is I can't know if W used SIGNAL, WARN or ERROR. So I can't resignal on the C's side without altering it in some cases 14:03:43 though maybe *DEBUGGER-HOOK* can be used here 14:03:46 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:04:05 You should just signal in C, if the condition is not handled, you should send a message back to W that the condition was not handled in C 14:04:29 in which case the handler-bind in W should just do nothing, resulting in the default behaviour of the signalling operation in W 14:05:12 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:13 -!- CyberBlue [~yong@111.167.4.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05:24 minion chant 14:05:39 wgl: We might be +R again/still 14:05:44 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:05:47 tcr: hmm, that sounds sensible 14:06:30 mathrick: There is a slight problem in that the handler-bind in W, first resignals the condition to see if there's some local handler active 14:06:31 tcr: minion isn't here 14:06:53 mathrick: if there isn't, you propagate the conditon to C, and if there's no handler, too 14:07:23 mathrick: the handler-bind in W does nothing, which means that the condition is once again propgated in W another time (which again will not find any active handler) 14:07:34 mathrick: that's a fundamental flaw of CL's condition system 14:07:44 Athas` [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:07:47 lemme just parse it 14:08:03 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@hoasnet-fe22dd00-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:08:16 it's not a problem just a slight inefficiency :-) 14:09:17 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:08 fe[nl]ix: heh, oh, ok 14:10:42 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:48 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:12:37 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-11-170.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:13:28 gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:18 pierre__ [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:14 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:18:03 fe[nl]ix: Did you decide what you do? 14:20:05 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:11 -!- pierre__ is now known as nowhere_man 14:21:44 tcr: Wien or Berlin ? 14:23:11 Wien, I think. It's cheaper to go there 14:23:49 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:25:04 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:41 Yay! You go by train? 14:26:55 yes 14:27:48 about 11h30 Roma -> Wien :) 14:29:49 I thought you were localted in upper italy, closer to milan 14:30:00 nope 14:30:26 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:32:05 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:10 tcr: ÖBB just opened a few Italian routes a couple of months ago and ATM a one-way ticket is only 30 14:32:47 wow that's cheap, I'm going to reserve tickets tomorrow 14:32:59 -!- wentbackward [~wentbackw@2002:da66:b976:0:216:e6ff:fed8:1211] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:33:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.8] has left #lisp 14:40:28 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-179.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:40:47 that's a lot of hacking time 14:40:53 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 sepult` [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:849:4cbd:b1dc:3cd4] has joined #lisp 14:42:51 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-158.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:43:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 14:44:00 -!- sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:30c4:2aab:b1dc:3cd4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:45:54 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 14:46:39 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 14:48:48 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:50:27 Xach: that's the good side of it :) 14:51:14 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:55:54 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:44 -!- md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:11 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@188.110.166.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:59:45 soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 15:03:46 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:10:20 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:13:59 -!- marcob [~marco@host239-195-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: marcob] 15:23:50 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:23:53 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 15:24:12 djinni` [~djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:25 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 15:27:54 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:28:10 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 15:28:15 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:41 Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:22 there is a bad side? 15:30:46 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:31:59 -!- gz_ [~gz@216-220-228-58.midmaine.com] has left #lisp 15:32:59 cmm: 12 hours on a train is a bit boring 15:34:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:37:11 sounds like more hacking time! (or an opportunity to catch up on your sleep, which isn't half bad either) 15:37:23 but then what do I know, I like trains 15:37:39 demmeln [~Adium@188.110.166.58] has joined #lisp 15:38:15 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:38:32 I can't say I've ever been on a train yet. 15:39:18 *stassats* has been on 32 hours trains 15:39:36 -!- demmeln [~Adium@188.110.166.58] has left #lisp 15:39:45 splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-dfchomebwpjzbdww] has joined #lisp 15:40:00 morning 15:40:05 stassats: on what route ? 15:40:20 hello splittist 15:40:59 fe[nl]ix: Northwest Russia - Ukraine 15:41:25 slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 15:41:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:42:36 12 hours on a train are better than 12 hours on a plane. 15:42:45 (but perhaps the 380 if you have a first class ticket). 15:43:44 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 15:44:09 I can't stand planes...really, really, dislike planes. 15:44:39 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:44:43 For making it to the destination kinda quickly it's nice though...takes 2 days to go from where I live to California by train. Thinking it'd be kinda cool to try it though this year 15:44:52 i like 10 hours on a bicycle better 15:45:12 TDT: yeah. I like planes, but to travel, nothing beats Scotty's beams. 15:45:30 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:03 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 15:49:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:53:00 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:43 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:14 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-179.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:56:04 jmbr___ [~jmbr@15.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:56:29 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 15:57:50 -!- jmbr__ [~jmbr@97.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:58:27 it seems the best plotting package for cl is cl-plplot. 15:58:33 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:06 facsimile [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has joined #lisp 16:03:11 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by facsimile))] 16:03:14 -!- facsimile is now known as soupdragon 16:03:48 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:04:00 I noted a problem with paredit in the slime repl buffer. (cos 45)DELET will get (cos 45 16:04:13 In the lisp file, that is protected. 16:04:52 because paredit isn't enabled in the repl? 16:05:02 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:20 it is enabled. 16:05:36 I can use M-( to wrap a form inside () 16:05:59 M-( would work without paredit 16:06:10 and it is shown in the mode-line 16:06:33 i can't reprodcue 16:06:49 stassats: that's not true. without paredit M-( just inserts () 16:07:25 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 I'm using paredit Version 22 (beta) 16:08:15 Is the author of paredit here? 16:09:30 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:31 *leo2007* is happy that CCL + CL-PLPLOT + GSLL makes a good numerical computing platform. 16:12:22 leo2007: how do you view the results from cl-plplot? 16:12:44 tcr: aquaterm 16:13:27 that can display images? 16:13:59 yes, beautifully. 16:14:12 gnuplot and use aquaterm too. 16:15:22 s/and/can/ 16:15:30 cool how does it work? 16:16:53 tcr: that's what aquaterm does: "AquaTerm is a Mac OS X graphics renderer". 16:16:55 tcr: you need to install aquaterm and compile plplot. it detects aquaterm automatically 16:18:26 rfh [~holzi1991@212.186.133.195] has joined #lisp 16:19:12 It's a long term wish of mine; I think a development environment should tie into a data visualization application 16:19:48 which means there's some protocol you can write methods for, and then have your data structures nicely visualized 16:19:49 yes, tcr. i have been searching such an environment for a long time. Now I got it. 16:20:43 tcr: you mean for slime? 16:21:08 tcr: presentations as inline pngs in the REPL? (: 16:21:23 <[df]> tcr: isn't the McCLIM listener some way towards that goal? 16:21:28 That doesn't cut it, but yeah that's the short-term solution 16:22:17 I want to zoom-in zoom-out, rotate etc. i.e. have a real, interactive visualization app 16:23:07 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:49 leo2007: It's not really slime specific; you need a protocol that can be used to describe a wide range of datastructures, then have a bridge; anyone can use to the bridge, including slime yeah 16:23:49 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:24:19 ideally the bridge would allow two-way communication ("callbacks") 16:26:35 -!- hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has quit [Quit: `-`] 16:27:08 francogrex [~user@91.180.89.192] has joined #lisp 16:27:12 For example, in the visualization app, I want to right-click on some substructure, and have "Copy down to REPL" 16:27:13 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.214.227.235] has joined #lisp 16:28:08 <[df]> what sort of primitives would your visualisation methods use? 16:28:36 I have a hex dump from a file how can I use write-byte to reconstitute the binary? 16:28:57 [df]: "primitives"? 16:29:16 <[df]> to draw the graphics 16:29:49 [df]: I'm thinking of something along the lines of cl-dot 16:30:02 francogrex: straightforwardly? 16:30:03 tcr: I don't know whether aquaterm does zoom-in zoom-out, rotate. 16:30:13 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:30:14 -!- milanj [~milan@93.86.187.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:30:22 stassats: straightforwardly 16:30:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-250.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:30:45 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-176-179.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:30:45 I'll use the hexl-mode from emacs 16:30:54 to get the hex 16:31:14 francogrex: that's what i mean, you do it straightforwardly 16:31:22 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:31:42 ehhh, can you elaborate in a sentence pls? 16:32:09 why do you need to use hexl-mode? 16:32:16 -!- adeht [death@bzq-84-110-117-95.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: masticate to dominate] 16:32:26 what do you want to do, exactly? 16:32:53 have the bytes and write them to remake the file 16:34:00 you want to copy a file? 16:36:26 well, yes.. actually it's more for experimenting 16:36:39 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:37:07 I want to modify some bytes and remake the file 16:37:15 read bytes, write bites 16:37:23 s/bites/bytes/ 16:37:37 ok but it works if I have hex representation? 16:38:19 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-B39B2CCB.midmaine.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 16:38:30 I guesss I have to converty those first 16:39:38 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:39:50 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-39.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:29 alright, Xach. you might be interested in http://github.com/antifuchs/cl-beanstalk 16:43:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 16:43:52 I'm trying to find this in the docs, but how do I swank:create-server so that it listenes on all IPs? 16:44:27 or does it always binds to 127.0.0.1 so I always have to create an SSH tunnel? 16:44:30 bind* 16:44:34 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:44:54 antifuchs: it's a generic worker dispatcher? 16:44:57 RaceCondition: I believe it has a *local-address* or something variable 16:45:02 it was something with *local around 16:45:05 antifuchs: oh 16:45:40 RaceCondition: I'm not sure it's a good way not to use ssh tunnel 16:45:44 good idea 16:45:45 tcr: beanstalkd is a very nice queue server, and this is the client library... basically all you need to make a producer or consumer of units of work 16:45:59 tcr: the problem is that the SSH tunnel seems to hang up regularly with the server I'm trying to connect to 16:46:13 and since I'm just exploring anyway, I thought I'd connect directly 16:46:16 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32D085.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:16 with things like openvpn, it makes a lot of sense to listen on the VPN interface ip (: 16:46:16 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32D085.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:46:16 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 16:46:29 stassats: I think there's a bug in my setup that causes the weird behaviour of paredit. DEL is bound to backward-delete-char-untabify. 16:46:32 antifuchs: these queue stuff is coming up all over, can this be? 16:46:42 actually I wouldn't even bother, but I'm trying to find out why I get a much longer traceback with the SBCL on the server than locally... 16:46:54 tcr: well, it's a way to get parallelism for very cheap 16:47:02 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.89.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:06 and in a way that's very manageable (: 16:47:48 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:00 antifuchs: why isn't there a way to store responses? 16:48:52 pkhuong: because beanstalk is primarily for asynchronous work. If you want a channel back to the producer, you can make a second queue and feed responses in there. 16:48:55 -!- jmbr___ is now known as jmbr 16:49:25 in the worker that would be (beanstalk:use *conn* "replies") (beanstalk:put ... your-answer) 16:49:27 moin antifuchs 16:49:38 hey het (: 16:50:04 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:51:53 antifuchs: having responses doesn't mean the work is synchronous. 16:51:55 -!- sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:849:4cbd:b1dc:3cd4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:52:10 pkhuong: well, right. anyway, see above (: 16:52:24 But registering a job as done and sending a response back should ideally be atomic. 16:53:47 for the thing that listens for replies, it doesn't matter, as the beanstalk protocol doesn't even let you notice if the job has been done (-: 16:54:13 it's really useful for fire-and-forget things in small to medium-sized web applications 16:54:28 it's not activeMQ or any of the other serious ones. 16:54:37 Shamiq [~Adium@adsl-68-78-133-219.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:49 -!- Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]] 16:54:54 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:55:01 what do you use it for? 16:55:03 otoh, it has nice things like delays, which I don't think I've seen in anything else 16:55:08 antifuchs: that's not the point. The race here is that you could delete the task, and lose before sending the response (very bad), or send the response and lose before deleting the task (not very good either). 16:55:39 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 pkhuong: yeah, but I can't really say that I care if this happens in my applications (: 16:56:52 delays? 16:57:05 sounds like the opposite of futures... 16:57:22 (also, the usual back channel is via a database... still not atomic, though) 16:57:22 or rather opposite on one axis, equal on another 16:57:34 no, the opposite of futures would be something involving a processor with in-built time machine :) 16:57:45 pkhuong: that's a pretty complex protocol to get right :) 16:57:48 rahul: it acts as a job scheduler where you can request that a job be "ready" only after a given time 16:57:50 even MQ doesn't do it right 16:57:58 -!- Shamiq [~Adium@adsl-68-78-133-219.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 16:58:05 only FIX does it right, and that's through rather complex means 16:58:07 which I found lets you do nice task scheduling things 16:58:22 antifuchs: interesting 16:58:35 rahul: I was hoping to scrap our custom python script. 16:58:42 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:44 pkhuong: get a FIX engine 16:58:48 Anyone know of a library for connecting to serial ports 16:59:07 rahul: is that SGE-friendly? (: 16:59:08 use everything up to the session layer and abandon the finacial application-level stuff 16:59:14 pkhuong: SGE? 16:59:20 sun grid engine. 16:59:21 Sikander [~Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:59:28 pkhuong: I'm sure it is 16:59:32 hi 16:59:34 given Xach's web crawling use case, you could space jobs a couple apart, to be easier on the web server 16:59:46 pkhuong: it's used in basically all environments 16:59:49 "a couple of seconds" 16:59:57 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:28 antifuchs: iiuc, the point is to work around server-side throttling (: 17:00:29 pkhuong: although it really relies on assigning nodes specific IDs and using local disk for tracking messages 17:00:36 rahul: eek, state. 17:00:47 pkhuong: well, it's designed for stateful things 17:01:09 pkhuong: specifically, financial transactions, like stock market orders 17:01:17 I'm just doing scientific computing; dead-simple stuff, remember? (: 17:01:21 heh 17:01:29 then this is probably not what you want, yeah :) 17:01:54 pkhuong: right - my use case for delays was an auto-throttling rss feed fetching+parsing thing, which was very nice to web servers and predictable in terms of fetching rate and stuff 17:01:55 although I don't think the overhead of having properly reliable request-response is helpful for you then, either 17:01:58 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-10201.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:02:11 when you run out of jobs, just start scanning for jobs that don't have a response yet 17:02:48 rahul: it's a PITA, especially since the jobs can take a couple hours to complete. 17:03:35 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-10201.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:42 antifuchs: ah cool 17:03:48 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 17:04:04 pkhuong: distributed systems are painful no matter what, IME 17:04:33 pkhuong: and if the work queue is empty, what do you have to lose by having idle nodes duplicate effort? 17:04:57 and, I'd break down the tasks into smaller units if possible in that pass 17:05:14 you need heuristics anyway 17:05:22 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:05:28 guaqua: not always 17:05:46 if you subdivide work units and steal, you can get pretty good 17:05:48 rahul: no, can't break 'em up. 17:06:01 Well, I could, but the amount of state to pass around would be enormous. 17:06:09 there are things where stealing is not an option, like doing large downloads 17:06:26 guaqua: that's definitely an incorrect example 17:06:40 you can steal the second half of what is remaining in the download 17:06:53 if it can be divided easily 17:07:08 downloading can be divided easily. 17:07:10 rahul: I have my sysadmin's friendship to lose, by duplicating efforts. 17:07:20 Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:22 if it can't be and you are stuck with slow upstream, no 17:07:29 pkhuong: it's a shared cluster? 17:07:33 rahul: yup. 17:07:47 guaqua: then you're a tool for focusing on the non-bottleneck 17:07:57 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:08 sure 17:08:14 pkhuong: tricky, then... 17:08:23 and you are a pompous ass, as always 17:08:30 pkhuong: not sure I can help you without some more thought :) 17:09:00 guaqua: only if you insist on insisting on the stupidest non-solution to a problem as an objection 17:09:30 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:34 man with the last say 17:10:46 pkhuong: I guess you could look for WUs that are obviously failed... ones that are buried in a dense set of succeeded WUs 17:10:58 is it possible to open a socket connection to a file 17:11:05 pkhuong: it's the last few WUs where this becomes tricky 17:11:08 RaceCondition pasted "weird backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94183 17:11:09 using usocket 17:11:22 Guthur: you mean a socket inode on unix? 17:11:40 why am I getting that backtrace whereas on another swank instance I'm getting a nice and long backtrace? 17:11:52 I'm running the exact same SBCL and SLIME versions and the exact same code 17:11:53 rahul: Quite possibly, I will have to check, my socket knowledge is scant 17:12:12 RaceCondition: so what is the difference between the two setups? 17:12:19 RaceCondition: compilation options? 17:12:37 rahul: compilation options of what? SBCL? 17:12:55 RaceCondition: um, what's the other backtrace? 17:13:00 hmm, hold on 17:13:05 RaceCondition: that one is on mac? 17:13:14 yes 17:13:19 and the good one is on Debian 17:13:31 backtraces are screwed on mac 17:13:37 well there you go 17:13:42 any way to fix that, tcr? 17:13:52 rahul: could go a randomised choice based on the last time a worker got the job. 17:13:54 different OS is not "no difference" :) 17:13:57 is it because of how MacPorts builds SBCL? 17:14:08 pkhuong: not sure random even helps here 17:14:21 pkhuong: if it's really old, it's definitely failed 17:14:32 rahul, that will let me read data from the file, its actually /dev/ttyS1 (serial port device) 17:14:33 or it's really taking a long time. 17:14:50 Guthur: iolib is probably more appropriate for that 17:14:53 RaceCondition: no, it's a deficiency in SBCL's port to OS X. 17:15:04 pkhuong: so there's no way to fix it? 17:15:05 RaceCondition: There's a launchpad entry for that already presumably; if not already known the faulty revision, bisecting might help 17:15:21 rahul: ok thanks 17:15:26 hmm, OK, I'll try and see if I have more luck with CCL 17:15:42 pkhuong: do your WUs really have a 100x or so unpredicability in actual effort? 17:15:59 rahul: yes. From seconds to 2-3 hours. 17:16:03 ouch 17:16:16 I can guess fairly accurately, but, the range is still that large. 17:16:35 hmm, then factor the guess into your selection algo. 17:16:47 yeah. More complexity for me :| 17:16:55 only retry the WU if you're 10x beyond the estimated deadline 17:16:57 heh 17:17:08 who told you distributed computing would be easy? :) 17:17:14 does CCL have a .cclrc file similar yo .sbclrc? 17:17:26 I could also query SGE for the state of the jobs (: 17:17:46 <[df]> RaceCondition: .ccl-init.lisp 17:17:47 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:50 I'm not familiar with what it provides, but yeah, do that if it's got enough info :) 17:17:53 [df]: thanks :) 17:18:00 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:06 it's nice to see that there are more requirements (and trade-offs) out there for queues and workers... I was getting a bit fed up with the requirements of a typical rails application, tbh (-: 17:21:03 I see with CCL the debugger is better 17:23:46 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 17:26:10 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:27:15 ccl's primary OS is OS X 17:27:19 sbcl's is linux 17:29:22 sbcl works quite well on osx 17:29:24 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:30:41 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:22 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:32:26 rahul: so I should use CCL on OS X? at least for the moment, I mean 17:32:31 z0ltan [z0ltan@115.108.20.96] has joined #lisp 17:32:37 hello 17:32:55 how's it going? 17:33:20 -!- z0ltan [z0ltan@115.108.20.96] has left #lisp 17:33:49 RaceCondition: if you're on a ppc mac, ccl offers threading, which is nice. 17:34:01 Fade: I'm on Intel 17:34:01 RaceCondition, just out of curiosity, does your code need to run on osx? 17:34:15 -!- HET4 is now known as HET2 17:34:16 HET4: well I'm just learning lisp :P so it doesn't really matter 17:34:31 sbcl has experimental threading support on x86oid macs. 17:34:42 HET2: but probably even if I was developing real code, I would doubt it would get deployed on an OS X server 17:34:43 ccl is a very nce lisp. 17:34:55 nice* 17:35:01 RaceCondition, then you might want to stick with one of the bigger lisps that people on support platforms know about :) 17:35:14 HET2: so CCL is not one of them? 17:35:18 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:51 i am by no means a lisp expert but i hadnt heard of ccl up until now - sbcl on the other hand is mentioned in the channel topioc 17:35:53 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:37 CCL is one of the best free lisps. sbcl is probably the most popular around here, but CCL is well regarded. 17:36:54 mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:54 'course most of the folks in here are using linux. 17:37:17 i would also assume that most of the lisp code is run on linux... 17:37:53 ccl also works fine on linux. 17:37:56 *Fade* shrugs 17:38:06 try it out and see if it works for you. 17:38:31 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1] 17:40:02 -!- easyE [X4qN5vyCQr@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:40:04 easyE [XjWv6hhnHO@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:05 Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.45.239] has joined #lisp 17:43:19 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066173.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 17:43:44 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-248-95.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:43:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:55 stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 17:49:09 fe[nl]ix: http://gitorious.org/~sionescu/hemlock/sionescu-hemlock/blobs/master/src/wire-package.lisp doesn't look right 17:49:12 so, is it OK that I should rename the ASDF-provided "asdf-binary-locations" to "asdf-output-locations" and introduce a new, incompatible way, of configuring it? 17:49:21 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:34 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:49:55 I don't think many people use bleeding-edge enough ASDF to have the builtin ABL and these kinds of people would easily adapt anyway 17:50:09 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:50:37 sounds like a reasonable assumption 17:52:24 in my opinion, a coherent set of mayor changes would be preferable to a piecemeal update. If ASDF improves substantially in one step, people are more likely to adapt than if it becomes a moving target 17:53:18 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:22 most people don't use upstream asdf anyway 17:53:32 or rather: "to be begin with" 17:54:21 i use whatever sbcl bundles, and none of the packages I use seems to mind 17:55:06 tcr: the idea is that after I'm done with ASDF, I'll push it to all the implementations. 17:55:25 at which point ASDF will be easily configured and trivial to self-update. 17:56:26 (and hopefully stable and useful enough that even SLIME would use it?) 17:57:37 obstacles to that include: 1- ABL configuration, 2- squashing any glaring bugs (and hence, testing) 17:59:23 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224123109.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:00:42 -!- mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:01:54 mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:39 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-183-190.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 -!- Sikander [~Sikander@oemrawsingh.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 18:03:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:05:40 sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:849:4cbd:b1dc:3cd4] has joined #lisp 18:06:26 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066173.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:06:32 lispm [~joswig@d222036.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 18:07:02 -!- mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:09:56 -!- Dodek [dodek@sh.8px.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:09:56 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 18:10:15 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:11:13 -!- sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:849:4cbd:b1dc:3cd4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:12:42 Lithos_ [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:36 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-20-104.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:14:54 -!- Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:14:54 -!- Lithos_ is now known as Lithos 18:15:15 I wonder if ABL shouldn't become the default 18:16:07 -!- rfh [~holzi1991@212.186.133.195] has quit [Quit: rfh] 18:18:30 madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-1380.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:19:44 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 18:19:46 -!- Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:20:10 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:39 can i convince format ~{~} notation to not print one of the elements of the list? 18:21:56 which one? 18:22:30 nevermind, i was looking for ~* 18:23:40 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:23:57 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:24:08 fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:24:22 where can i find a comprehensive reference for format directives 18:24:48 clhs format 18:24:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 18:25:20 and look for the Formatted Output -link 18:25:26 pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:25:26 yeah i know that 18:25:30 but it only explains the function 18:25:38 and formatted output is horrible to read - it has like 2 lines per entry 18:26:02 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 18:26:47 HET2: will brokema had some cheatsheet in the doc/ directory of his clpython distribution 18:26:49 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-65-127.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:26:58 interesting 18:27:12 thanks will look into it 18:27:33 PCL also covers some common format directives 18:27:56 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:40 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-30-238.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:29:02 HET2: For a comprehensive index you can use C-c C-d ~ TAB in slime 18:29:12 ah 18:29:34 hmm 18:29:39 that doesn't do anything interesting 18:29:43 says it's sole completion 18:30:01 oh no - i was mistyping 18:30:01 wfm 18:30:02 sry 18:30:07 wfm? 18:30:11 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:30:11 oh works for me 18:35:07 weird, asdf-install's installation guide says that asdf-install is bundled iwth OpenMCL, so if OpenMCL is the same as CCL, why can't I (require :asdf-install)? 18:36:00 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 18:36:01 perhaps they dropped it 18:36:02 you doesn't have it in the central registry? 18:36:12 doh, s/does/do/ 18:37:00 (push "ccl:tools;asdf-install;" asdf:*central-registry*) 18:37:08 stassats: oh... OK, I'll try that 18:37:23 logical pathnames! 18:37:56 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:14 stassats: weird... that gives me "Error: Permission denied : "/opt/local/share/ccl/1.4/tools/asdf-install/defpackage.dx32fsl"" 18:38:30 that doesn't sound weird 18:39:17 any idea what's causing it? 18:39:23 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:31 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:42 obviously, you don't have permission to create files there 18:40:36 that's a ccl packaging problem -- complain to their bugs mailing-list 18:40:49 not that you should be using asdf-install anyway 18:40:56 I recommend clbuild as an alternative 18:41:04 i don't think it's a ccl problem 18:41:06 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-509.qas-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:41:15 stassats, ccl ought to precompile it 18:41:56 oh, well, I just ran ccl as root once 18:41:57 solved it 18:42:08 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 francogrex [~user@91.180.89.192] has joined #lisp 18:43:26 Fare: you can do that by yourself easily 18:43:47 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 18:44:09 how to remove the 'A at pos 3 from (list 'A 'B 'A 'A 'F 'G 'A) not just set it to nil but complete removal? 18:44:34 stassats: you're not using OS X yourself, are you? 18:44:51 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:44:51 francogrex: use subseq, nthcdr and append 18:44:52 francogrex: (remove 'A list :count 2) 18:45:08 francogrex: eh sorry :-) 18:45:10 YES! thanks 18:45:15 that won't work 18:45:16 gz_ [~gz@72-58-253-106.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:18 (remove 'a list :start 2 :end 3) 18:45:22 right 18:45:24 oh right 18:45:26 ok ok 18:45:40 -!- gz_ [~gz@72-58-253-106.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 18:45:41 (remove-if (constantly t) list :start 2 :end 3) 18:45:41 there are keyword arguments in list manipulating functions 18:45:57 in sequence manipulation functions 18:47:12 milanj [~milan@79.101.204.250] has joined #lisp 18:47:13 i frequently forget about that as well 18:48:46 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:49:51 -!- Vinnipeg [~innocentb@95.84.45.239] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:12 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:55:36 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:56:40 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:47 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-10201.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:57:25 francogrex: how do you know that you want that specific thing removed? 18:57:43 francogrex: if you're traversing, use loop with when foo collect x 18:58:52 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-229-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:02:04 does free special declaration affect declarations itself? i.e. is (defun foo () (declare (special foo) (type foo))) legitimate? 19:02:29 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:33 clhs says "Unless explicitly stated otherwise, the scope of a free declaration includes only the body subforms of the form at whose head it appears, and no other subforms." does that mean that it's not legitimate? 19:03:16 well, it doesn't refer to anything 19:03:27 so it might be legal, but it's spurious 19:03:34 lichtblau: I know the cause of that. I assumed that all files had a modeline, so I just used sed to replace the first line of the file with a "good" modeline 19:03:35 sbcl issues a warning 19:03:49 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 19:04:34 lichtblau: shall I redo the tree cleaning ? 19:04:56 rahul: I'm just doing something dumb really, I am reading the bytes of 2 .doc files, trying to see where exactly the differences are and then removing those!! Needless to say, it's a futile approach.. 19:05:11 wha? 19:05:18 is there a lisp lib for cddb lookup? cliki sez no. 19:05:27 to remove the differences, you overwrite one file with another 19:05:41 rahul: it baffles the mind, don't waste your time trying to understand 19:05:42 prxq: it's a pretty simple protocol, I think... no? 19:05:52 francogrex: ok then :) 19:06:04 rahul: might well be, just thought I could avoid figuring it out 19:06:27 but I have another question (I have plenty) regarding "iterate" macro if people use it 19:06:32 prxq: you could call out to cddb-tool as a last resort 19:06:42 francogrex: people use it 19:06:45 (not me :P) 19:06:49 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:18 Q1: (loop for i in data1 and j in data2 ... esquivalent in iter is? 19:07:48 Ok I made the completion buffer when using C-c C-d ~ TAB look more nicely 19:08:23 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:39 francogrex: that sounds like an easy question, is documentation so inadequate? 19:09:41 Q2: (iter (for i in data) etc etc etc (count 3 list1) ... count is not the one used by iterate but the independent function count; iterate and I suspect loop also will not let you use it because they have their own "count" keyword that clashes... 19:09:54 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:10:26 stassats: I don't know; I don't think so, but at least wasn't that obvious from the browsing 19:10:47 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-90207.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:28 francogrex: in loop, it won't clash 19:11:49 loop doesn't compare based on symbol 19:11:53 it compares symbol name 19:11:53 loop doesn't use keywords as identities 19:13:22 hmm; frustrating 19:13:32 (symbol-package 'iter::count) => # 19:14:25 does iterate hijack count? 19:14:46 tcr: i see that it does here at least for me 19:14:47 tcr: I don't think so... it should be COUNTING 19:14:58 "it" being the iterate clause 19:16:36 francogrex: and your original question, (iter (for i in list-1) (for j in list-2) ...) 19:17:46 stassats: yes I suspected so; loop has that but in addition it has the and; there is a small nuance in loop 19:17:52 konr [~user@201.82.133.89] has joined #lisp 19:17:54 between the for for and the for and 19:18:15 smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-107-23.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:24 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:50 there is but it's not observable in this case 19:19:21 any idea why I might my SLIME menu contains two items SLIME and SLIME both of which contain the real SLIME menu? same with the REPL menu 19:19:29 (and I am using the latest CVS head of SLIME) 19:19:53 I see that too; must be a recently introduced bug 19:19:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94187 19:20:08 tcr: good, so I didn't screw up anything :) 19:21:10 francogrex: what's this? 19:21:27 If I had a dime for every time a new bug appears when there is an update of a software... 19:21:40 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 stassats: this is where things get screwed up in iter 19:22:21 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:39 it should count the presence of 2 in mylist 10 times 19:22:43 stassats: that multiple entry thing is only at the repl 19:22:54 you don't need the iteration there 19:23:01 stassats: perhaps that's a regression from the keymap work? 19:23:10 I know I don't but just to illustrate the clash 19:23:28 francogrex: just (count 2 mylist) will give you the number of 2s in the list. 19:24:32 for an iterate solution, look into ITER:COUNTING. see http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Reductions.html#Reductions 19:24:59 so that would be (iter (for i in mylist) (counting (eql i 2))) 19:25:06 francogrex: why cannot you type (describe 'iter) and then what's suggested? 19:25:10 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@15.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:19 basically, the second form in there is completely wrong (: 19:26:02 francogrex: (describe 'iter) tells you to type: (iterate:display-iterate-clauses) ; why can't you do that? 19:26:25 antifuchs: that's not the point 19:27:40 pjb; and? 19:27:41 francogrex: oh, I see. 19:27:57 heh 19:28:05 francogrex: and learn the syntax of counting clauses. 19:28:08 i have the manual in pdf 19:28:21 pjb; forget counting 19:28:25 code walker fail? 19:28:36 I'm talking about keyword clashing 19:28:47 not, it's not keyword clashing 19:28:55 it has an iterate::synonym on its plist there. 19:29:01 wtf, who put that there (: 19:29:09 francogrex: then why haven't you pasted any keyword clashing error? 19:29:31 tcr: seems to be it, damn 19:30:02 francogrex: I believe this is an iterate bug. 19:30:11 francogrex: could you report this to iterate-devel? 19:30:22 well I think I'm stupid 19:30:43 I shoukd keep iterate in its own package! 19:30:44 iterate has that synonym definition in iterate.lisp, and I wonder why it's there 19:30:52 francogrex: it won't help, I think 19:31:27 hmm let me try 19:31:34 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-68-175-107-23.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:31:35 it should help 19:31:36 francogrex: just did. same error. 19:31:43 hell! 19:31:47 it's the symbol CL:COUNT that has the alias on it. 19:32:11 if you reset the symbol's plist to nil (or at least remove ITERATE::SYNONYM), it will work as expected 19:32:25 it's the (defsynonym count counting) thing in iterate.lisp that causes this 19:32:49 antifuchs: you are developer of the iterate? 19:32:58 not anymore (: 19:33:06 I used to take care of it, a couple of years back 19:33:12 who's in chatrge now? 19:33:32 there must be an easy work-around that 19:33:42 a couple of people have stepped up, and I think joerg hoehle is the most recent contributor 19:34:09 well, yeah. (setf (symbol-plist 'cl:count) nil) (: 19:34:52 like I said, please report this to iterate-devel. I think the presence of iterate shouldn't alter cl function semantics - it's bad enough that it alters macrolet semantics (-: 19:34:55 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:36:35 antifuchs: ok; I love iterate, I would like it to be in good shape all the time 19:36:40 Kaoru_Nagisa [~Kaoru@2a01:e35:8b7c:d0b0:cb0:8dfe:f328:1c5] has joined #lisp 19:36:43 does anyone know where i can obtain the cvs version of ltk? pherths page has an old tarball, but the mailinglist sugest that there is ongoing development 19:36:45 cool (: 19:36:45 :o 19:37:41 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-137-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:01 antifuchs: do you have an address so I can gain a few minutes googling for the developers bug repository/email? 19:38:14 -!- Kaoru_Nagisa [~Kaoru@2a01:e35:8b7c:d0b0:cb0:8dfe:f328:1c5] has left #lisp 19:38:50 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 it's iterate-devel. this mailing list: http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/iterate-devel 19:39:23 is it still: bug-iterate@ai.mit.edu. 19:40:14 ok thanks; I will send an email but I won't subscribe (I have enough emails unread already) 19:40:21 das64 [~das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:34 newlin [~52b652fa@gateway/web/freenode/x-obgtdvsykjxegpsu] has joined #lisp 19:42:58 prxq: there is ongoing development; you should probably drop him a mail 19:43:05 prxq: iirc they wanted to do a new release 19:43:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:43:33 hi guys. what do you use single-quote prefixed strings for? 19:43:41 tcr: i c. thx 19:44:14 newlin, you mean symbols? 19:44:18 newlin: do you have custom reader macros? (If you don't know what I mean, probably you don't have). 19:44:23 Fare: i might! :) 19:44:41 pjb: i probably don't have. 19:44:52 <- first line of lisp ever but five minutes ago 19:44:53 Do you know what quote means in lisp? 19:44:58 newlin: symbols in Lisp are kind of like URLs, except not universal 19:45:00 newlin: they're not strings. Symbols are convenient because they're easy to write or print, and preserve their identity. 19:45:23 so when would you use one? 19:45:45 every time 19:45:53 take the map-function for instance, it's: (map 'something fun list), am I right? what is 'something there? 19:45:56 newlin: with the standard reader macros, strings are always between double quotes. A string prefixed by a single quote would be something line '"Hello" and would be equivalent to (quote "Hello"). 19:46:00 if you have started five minutes ago it's too early to care about such things 19:46:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 stassats: but i see them everywhere 19:46:25 newlin: the quote operator prevents the evaluation of its arguments, and returns it as is. So (quote "Hello") evaluates to the string "Hello" itself. 19:46:26 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 19:46:34 newlin: read a book first, i suggest Practical Common Lisp 19:48:16 pjb: i think i get how it works. and i can see some possible use-cases (mainly printing stuff) 19:48:30 pjb: could it also be used to reference variables and functions? 19:48:34 that, or Touretzky's Gentle Introduction to Common Lisp. Also available for free on the net 19:48:34 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-AF3EE727.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 19:48:41 pkhuong, have you seen the concept of concurrency in literature before Dijkstra's "THE"? 19:48:42 newlin: well, usually strings are not quoted, since they are also self evaluating. 19:48:51 newlin: "Hello" evaluates to itself, the string "Hello". 19:48:59 do I have to register "~/.asdf-install-dir/site" with CCL somehow to make all the asdf-istall'ed packages available automatically? 19:49:07 newlin: so prefixing a string with a single quote would be useless. 19:49:16 stoop: not sure. It's certainly fundamental work for our current view of concurrency. 19:50:24 pkhuong, ok, thanks. 19:50:40 try and see if dijkstra's references any earlier work? 19:50:48 -'s. 19:50:49 newlin: otherwise, if what follows the single-quote is an identifier, it's called a symbol in lisp, and it's not a string. symbols are used for two things: to name variables (so when you evaluate a symbol, you get the value of the variable like in any other programming language), and as generic symbolic atoms for symbolic programming, in which case we want to deal with the symbol itself without evaluating it, and hence the use of the 19:50:51 quote operator (or single-quote prefix). 19:51:09 newlin: A evaluates to the value of the variable A; 'A or (quote A) evaluates to the symbol A itself. 19:51:16 -!- pbusser [~pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Quit: Client Quit] 19:51:17 pkhuong, he doesn't, unfortunately. 19:51:30 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:33 pjb: a little like atoms in erlang? 19:51:37 but more useful 19:51:41 Yes. 19:52:16 newlin: you use symbols when you need something with an identity 19:52:17 newlin: notice that in lisp, any character can be included in a symbol, as long as it's escaped by \ or between pairs of |: (length '(|This is a single Symbol| another\ symbol)) --> 2 19:52:47 pjb: try to avoid confusing syntax and semantics in his poor newbie's mind. 19:53:27 gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:33 newlin: as an object, a symbol is something with an identity, a name, a package, properties, an associated function or macro, an associated variable or symbol-macro, etc. 19:53:51 great! 19:54:08 i actually get it enough to get on using map() now :) 19:54:10 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-23-119.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:17 err, (map ...) i mean 19:54:25 newlin: the *syntax* to denote a symbol is a sequence of valid characters, or quoted characters (with \ or |...|) 19:54:25 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:04 stoop: maybe in Wheeler's posts on comp.arch? 19:55:29 newlin: are you aware of PCL? 19:55:29 newlin: however, when a symbol is present in the source code, it is evaluated specially (e.g. as a variable), and you need to quote it to specify something that evaluates to the symbol object itself. 19:55:38 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:55:47 pkhuong, which ones? 19:56:33 Look in ? 19:56:34 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:20 antifuchs [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:31 -!- DrunkTomato [~DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:59:05 gibsonf1 [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:07 pkhuong, older reference in CTSS Programmer's Guide: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ctss/CTSS_ProgrammersGuide.pdf 19:59:24 Does anyone have a library for using the Google calendar api? 19:59:40 (and if not, is anyone else interested in having said library?) 20:00:05 That would be interesting a library indeed. 20:00:40 -!- prxq [~mommer@g230129231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:01:32 pjb: my thought exactly, and I kind of need it in the near future. So I was wondering if anyone else was interested in helping out on the project. I don't think it will take too long 20:01:34 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 *pjb* is busy right now. 20:03:44 mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 gibsonf1: I hacked something real quick once. 20:04:12 dr_df0 [~maja@host-108-51.derby.waw.pl] has joined #lisp 20:04:54 leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:13 pkhuong: Does it work? 20:05:21 worked for my needs at the time. 20:05:39 ? 20:05:50 pkhoung: :) !! 20:06:10 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:06:44 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 20:09:49 Only has exactly what I needed to map emails to gcal events. 20:11:17 pkhoung: Nice - I like the en - fr translation too 20:11:54 RaceCondition: ok, i fixed those double menu entries, but what's your name so i can include it in the ChangeLog? 20:12:02 Pkhoung: I'll see if there are any other lispers interested (posted on HN too) and maybe we use some of it to build a library with asdf loader. Are you ok with that? 20:12:24 gibsonf1: sure. Want me to post a version with explicit BSD boilerplate? 20:12:26 stassats: include my name? :P 20:12:40 RaceCondition: yeah, you did report the bug after all 20:12:42 Pkhoung: Yes please :) 20:12:53 *Xach* has some cheap stuff for bridging the google lisp meeting calendar to planet lisp 20:13:09 Xach: bring it on 20:13:12 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:45 RaceCondition: if you don't want fame, i can include your nick here 20:13:57 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: * I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *] 20:14:06 gibsonf1: no thanks. 20:14:09 stassats: nick would be better, although it's such a tiny thing, I don't see why include anything :P 20:14:15 Xach: Ah :( 20:14:44 Xach: It never hurts to ask :) 20:15:05 gibsonf1: have fun. 20:15:06 *Xach* would like to see some lower layers that make it easy to support new google services quickly 20:15:48 RaceCondition: but it's still a bug, and it was mine bug, thanks for reporting 20:15:59 stassats: np :) glad you could fix it 20:16:05 Xach: So would I, but, iirc, google has 2-3 different ways to interact with their services. Too much infrastructure for me. 20:16:23 pkhoung: thanks for the start - I especially like the code that handles the characters that google doesn't like 20:16:27 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:33 pkhuong: there's a common authentication scheme, and most services use atom + extra bits for interaction. 20:16:52 pkhuong: i have half-finished stuff for auth and half-finished stuff for spreadsheets and calendars and blogs 20:17:14 e.g. http://moviechartsblog.xach.com/ is fully automatic 20:17:19 Xach: So you're thinking some kind of generic google library that handles authentication and basic interaction? 20:17:48 gibsonf1: it would be nice if i could give up the half-baked stuff i have for something more complete, intelligent, and documented. 20:18:06 RaceCondition: ok, i checked in the fix, it would appear in the anonymous CVS in 15 minutes 20:18:15 Xach: documentation is big - seems to be missing from a lot of libraries - but I guess the code can always be read 20:18:23 stassats: great, I'll cvsup then! 20:18:43 Xach: drop everything else but not the spreadsheet stuff :) 20:19:04 Xach: If you're willing to donate some of your half baked stuff to the effort, I'd be interested in working toward a really good asdf loadable library 20:19:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:20:18 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-24-118-53-243.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:29 uhm "asdf-loadability" is a trivial matter? 20:21:00 It's first step you do once you need more than one file 20:21:11 tor: The important part is making sure all the dependencies work and it loads and runs and simply works. The docs are probably harder 20:21:20 or you have dependencies 20:22:00 or once you release that one file (: 20:22:02 stassats: eval-when+require :-) 20:22:44 One thing I've noticed is that there seem to be now several libraries that do similar things, so I think I have now multiple libraries that are dependencies for higher level libraries that do very similar things 20:22:49 gibsonf1: Documentation+test suite (both includes all-around polishing) easily takes up the _majority_ of time investement (it's the pareto principle) 20:23:41 that's why i don't write documentation and unit tests 20:23:51 tcr: Good point. I can see that a google "suite" of Lisp libraries could be a really big deal 20:24:11 stassats: clever 20:24:31 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:41 *Xach* would also like to see a similarly layered system for Amazon web services 20:25:06 Xach: which auth mechanism did you end up supporting? http://code.google.com/apis/accounts/ lists about three (plus permutations) 20:25:12 Xach: Nice start with ZS3 :) 20:25:23 ZS3 is slick 20:25:56 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-018-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:26:05 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:26:08 a good oauth library would go a long way, even for applications that don't need to speak to google 20:26:29 *stoop* also found http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=762971&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=74076119&CFTOKEN=77182966 20:26:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-24-30.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:26:56 stoop: that's the THE school. 20:27:00 btw, for anyone interested, Mel-base has been integrated with cl+ssl so it can now IMAP with google, etc 20:27:24 I don't think the new code is published yet though, but you can see the diffs on the devel email list 20:27:53 anyone have a good reference of the lisp (sbcl) standard library/built-ins? 20:28:00 i can finally write my gnus killer in cl? 20:28:12 newlin: the hyperspec is canonical. 20:28:12 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-6-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:34 cltl2 is less so, but still valuable. 20:28:37 i'd say it's a de facto standard 20:28:38 SBCL's manual describes most extensions. 20:28:49 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-137-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:29:21 Fade: great, thanks. 20:30:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:52 so, I have a package/file that uses :split-sequence, but whenever I try to compile that file without doing (require :split-sequence) on the slime repl beforehand, I get compilation errors, so if I go to the repl and require :split-sequence and try to compile the file again, I start getting even weirder errors - why is that? 20:31:13 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has left #lisp 20:31:50 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:53 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:32:47 RaceCondition: symbol conflicts 20:33:30 hmm, for example one error tells me that there's an undefined function speed called with argument 0... 20:33:42 because I have declaim at the start of the file 20:33:51 that means that you don't use CL package 20:33:51 as if the whole system had broken down or smth 20:34:12 stassats: well I do, but the defpackage declaration is AFTER the declaim declaration 20:34:32 and it didn't give me that weird error BEFORE I did (require :split-sequence) on the REPL 20:34:51 RaceCondition: and what package are you in right now (cl:*package*)? 20:34:52 I'm not saying I'm not doing anything wrong, but I'd just like to understand why this is happening 20:35:04 pkhuong: you mean on the repl? 20:35:23 sure. 20:35:36 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.89.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:43 pkhuong: cl-user 20:35:47 as always 20:35:54 not always 20:36:21 did you select some restarts? 20:36:38 How do you try to compile the file? 20:36:46 antifuchs: ClientLogin 20:37:01 RaceCondition pasted "weird thing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94193 20:37:13 RaceCondition: The problem is that you're in a package that doesn't :USE the COMMON-LISP package. This could happen if you had an incomplete defpackage and switched to the new package. 20:37:14 pkhuong: C-c C-k 20:37:37 pkhuong: so is this happening because the first compilation attempt failed and I didn't clean up as required? 20:37:54 -!- dr_df0 [~maja@host-108-51.derby.waw.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:38:00 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32D085.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:00 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32D085.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:38:00 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 20:38:06 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:38:35 prxq [~mommer@g230129231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:04 You probably executed a (in-package ...) somewhere. Is that file you pasted complete? 20:40:15 pkhuong: nope, I have (in-package :mypackage) after that 20:40:28 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:40:30 so, put declaim after in-package 20:40:41 ooh... 20:40:42 ejs [~eugen@92.49.201.178] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 OK, so, first defpackage, then in-package and then declaim? 20:41:47 that's one way 20:42:12 -!- mburrows [~mburrows@host86-128-230-9.range86-128.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:43:55 is there anywhere I can put require :split-sequence in my file so I wouldn't have to require :split-sequence on the REPL each time I restart Emacs? 20:44:35 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require :split-sequence)) 20:44:51 oh, eval-when... ofc 20:45:01 before defpackage 20:45:48 ha, I was explaining recursion to my padawan, and when I went to tail-recursion, he wondered why any language implementor would not add this feature 20:46:00 just to check, I tried with PHP... 20:46:07 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:46:14 it has a fixed limit of 100 nested calls! 20:46:29 and, of course, not TCO 20:46:35 that's enough for everyone! 20:46:50 prxq: of course, like 80k of RAM ;-) 20:46:51 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:15 I'm still not understanding what get's f***ed up when I fist compile without split-sequence being available, then require split-sequence on the REPL and then recompile... 20:47:34 I tried with in-package :cl-user at the beg of the file and got rid of that issue 20:48:08 RaceCondition: could it be a symbol problem? 20:48:17 nowhere_man: cl does not have tco in many if not most instances 20:48:17 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 20:48:51 nowhere_man: I have no idea :P I'm a Lisp newb but I don't like moving on with things that I don't understand... 20:49:05 you intern the split-sequence symbol in your package, then load the split-sequence package, and then have two different things: cl-user:split-seq and split-seq:split-seq 20:49:11 you need the latter in your code 20:49:28 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:34 nowhere_man: OK, I get that, but why does all that cause things like defpackage and declaim to stop working in that file? 20:49:57 UNLESS I have in-package :cl-user as the first line... 20:50:40 RaceCondition: because those symbols live in the CL package 20:50:42 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:51:26 drewc: but then why are they not available anymore? 20:51:53 when you are in the package which doesn't use CL or doesn't import symbols from it 20:52:00 RaceCondition: because you're in a package that doesn't USE the "COMMON-LISP" package 20:52:16 drewc: which package is that? 20:52:18 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:28 because the package I created is using :cl... 20:52:31 prxq: SBCL blows its stack at 10^5 nested calls 20:52:32 RaceCondition: the value of CL:*package* 20:52:57 drewc: at the moment of compilation or what? 20:52:58 (defpackage say-no-to-cl (:use)) 20:53:55 (defpackage :morse (:use :common-lisp :split-sequence)) 20:53:59 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:54:02 this is how my defpackage looks like 20:54:08 nowhere_man: SBCL does TCO with the default settings 20:54:12 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:54:27 RaceCondition: is that cl:defpackage? 20:54:34 RaceCondition: before you define and use that package you are in some other package 20:54:42 'what my defpackage looks like' 20:54:49 defpackages do not have eyes 20:54:54 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:55 drewc: I mean, it's the first thing in my .lisp file 20:55:09 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:55:09 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 20:55:09 RaceCondition: and? what package are you reading it into? 20:55:33 -!- newlin [~52b652fa@gateway/web/freenode/x-obgtdvsykjxegpsu] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:55:34 stassats: I wrote a function that prohibits TCO 20:55:36 RaceCondition: try putting (break "~A" cl:*package*) at the top of your file 20:55:39 sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:849:4cbd:b1dc:3cd4] has joined #lisp 20:55:55 and both ECL and SBCL blow up at 10^5 calls but do fine at 10^4 20:56:06 nowhere_man: and what are you measuring then? 20:56:19 the possible depth of the call stack 20:56:32 change stack size and it will blow up whenever you want 20:56:51 didn't know I could change that 20:56:58 drewc: where do I see the output of that? 20:56:59 sbcl --control-stack-size 90MB 20:57:06 s/MB// 20:57:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:58:14 RaceCondition: in the debugger 20:58:25 so that's a default but modifiable setting that lets you nest two orders of magnitude more calls than the stupidly hardcoded limit of PHP 20:58:34 and rather cl:break 20:58:37 (I have a grudge against PHP) 20:58:47 nowhere_man: is it hardcoded in PHP? 20:59:14 RaceCondition: did you try it? it'll be pretty obvious 20:59:31 drewc: I did, but what's obvious? 20:59:36 and yeah, it should be cl:break 20:59:44 yes, I changed it to cl:break 20:59:58 nowhere_man: "everyone knows" that recursion has this particular issue. 21:00:45 RaceCondition pasted "backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94196 21:00:50 yeah, that's why recursion is such a useless paradigm 21:01:00 no, it's not 21:01:33 RaceCondition pasted "the file I'm trying to compile" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94197 21:01:43 nowhere_man: cmon not, no need to make yourself look like an idiot by spouting such things ;) 21:01:47 cmon now* 21:02:57 RaceCondition: annotate your pastes, don't make new ones for the same information 21:03:07 sorry, forgot that 21:03:48 RaceCondition: you are you compiling and loading that file? 21:03:55 and what lisp is that? 21:04:04 drewc: CCL, and yes, C-c C-c is compile and load 21:04:20 C-c C-k 21:04:24 sorry, yes 21:04:45 but does it differ from C-c M-k which just compiles if the file never gets successfully compiled anyway? 21:05:05 RaceCondition: what to you think? 21:05:08 do 21:05:16 *drewc* coffee's before his spelling gets worse 21:05:25 coffee's? 21:05:30 *drewc* glares at himself 21:05:31 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:32 quick! 21:05:49 drewc: I don't know :P I would assume it doesn't get loaded if the compilation fails 21:05:55 leo2007 [~leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:06:15 leo2007 pasted "slime and paredit issue" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94198 21:06:35 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:36 RaceCondition: what would get loaded otherwise? 21:06:43 drewc: nothing? 21:06:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:07:32 When I start 'emacs -q -l ' in the repl, DEL is bound to backward-delete-char-untabify instead of one from paredit. Any ideas? 21:07:36 drewc: OK, well, I retried everything with C-c M-k which just compiles, and nothing changes 21:07:56 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:06 RaceCondition: go to repl, and do (find-package :morse) 21:08:11 I still get "serious errors" after doing (require :split-sequence) on the repl after a failed initial compilation 21:08:11 what does it return? 21:08:21 leo2007: put add-hook after slime-setup? 21:08:22 frode [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 21:08:31 drewc: it's found 21:09:04 RaceCondition: and what does (package-use-list (find-package :morse)) return? 21:09:11 hold on 21:09:35 nil 21:09:37 stassats: which hook? the first one or the second one ('slime-repl-mode-hook). If the second, no difference. 21:09:45 (package-use-list :morse) would work too 21:10:08 drewc: so, that defpackage form get's evaluated even though it fails? 21:10:12 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:23 leo2007: the second one, but why are you using the first one? are you using autoloads? 21:10:50 RaceCondition: what is 'it' in the sentence above? and answer my last question before moving on! 21:10:51 that still wouldn't explain why stuff in cl becomes unavailable... 21:10:58 stassats: yes. I am using autoloads. 21:11:06 Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32D085.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:06 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@p5B32D085.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:11:06 Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has joined #lisp 21:11:16 stassats: chaning the order makes no difference. 21:11:27 drewc: your last question was about (package-use-list (find-package :morse)) and I answered that it returns nil 21:11:29 -!- sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:849:4cbd:b1dc:3cd4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:11:49 RaceCondition: so you lied to me ;) 21:11:57 what? 21:12:09 RaceCondition: when you told me your package :use'd :common-lisp 21:12:22 (defpackage :morse (:use :common-lisp :split-sequence)) 21:12:35 looks like you had an earlier version without that :use list. 21:12:40 RaceCondition: is that cl:defpackage? 21:12:47 racecondition are you doing a morse code decoder? 21:13:04 Guthur: it's just code from that big SLIME screencast 21:13:11 ah 21:13:14 :use contained an undefined package 21:13:46 OK, so it contained an undefined package, but it didn't stop defpackage from creating the :morse package anyway with an empty :use list? 21:14:07 clhs defpackage 21:14:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 21:14:56 should I be paying attention to " If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined;"? 21:14:58 so, i can reproduce this behaviour from ccl, if you have (defpackage foo (:use :cl :foooooo)), compile, and then select abort restart, you'll have foo with NIL usage list 21:15:08 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:15:20 RaceCondition: actually, it's in make-package "The consequences are unspecified if packages denoted by use do not exist. " 21:16:06 drewc: OK, so I get a screwed up :morse package, but why does doing (require :split-sequence) AFTER the initial failed compilation totally screw up the following compilations? 21:16:17 RaceCondition: is that cl:require? 21:16:24 drewc: http://github.com/droundy/iolaus#readme 21:16:34 RaceCondition: it doesn't. Post hoc ergo propter hoc? 21:16:48 hmm, is it valid to assume a recursive lock can be acquired with ordinary locks' primitives, or should I not do that? 21:16:57 pkhuong: sorry, what? :P 21:17:11 fe[nl]ix: ooooh! 21:17:15 RaceCondition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc 21:17:19 fe[nl]ix: there's hope yet 21:17:30 drewc: hope for what ? 21:17:39 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:50 fe[nl]ix: that i might stop cursing get when the difficult things get difficult 21:18:01 *drewc* misses a few things from darcs 21:18:45 -!- splittist [~bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-dfchomebwpjzbdww] has quit [Quit: scm's that never die...] 21:18:50 "Iolaus takes charge of creating and decapitating heads. This makes its name something of a misnomer, since Heracles was in charge of removing heads, which grew spontaneously, and Iolaus was merely tasked with preventing their regrowth. Nevertheless, iolaus the program takes charge of both the growth and decapitation of heads, allowing you (Heracles?) the programmer to focus your attention on code---that's the theory, anyhow." 21:18:52 :D 21:18:53 drewc: OK, now I explicitly specified (cl:require :split-sequence), so to answer your last question, yes 21:19:44 RaceCondition: and what does the CCL manual say about cl:require... does it work with asdf systems out of the box? 21:19:46 what I don't understand is that, if I don't (cl:require ...), I can repeat the initial failed compilation N times with the same, understandable error 21:19:55 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:58 fe[nl]ix: ooh, that's an interesting approach 21:20:09 drewc: well, (require :split-sequence) works just fine, I dealed with that before 21:20:11 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:15 I'm sure not to be using anything based on git, but maybe that concept can be transferred onto bzr 21:20:16 'dealt' 21:20:30 dealt, yes 21:21:18 can someone help me with the slime and paredit problem? 21:21:38 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:21:38 RaceCondition: at the point where you executed a program that exhibits undefined behaiour, your lisp is allowed to to anything it wants 21:22:02 drewc: I haven't said I'm blaming it or anything :P I'm just trying to understand what's going on 21:22:06 RaceCondition: it could turn all symbols into bubblegum... try compiling that! : 21:22:26 RaceCondition: that's what backtraces and *break-on-signals* are for 21:22:31 jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:19 drewc: as you might have guessed, I'm not that proficient in debugging CL stuff yet... 21:23:29 RaceCondition: you won't learn without trying 21:23:48 RaceCondition: i didn't get proficient by whining on #lisp about how i wasn't proficient 21:23:49 :P 21:23:54 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.83] has joined #lisp 21:25:09 "Here I am the greatest lisp advocate on the globe and they fuck em over an bar me from chat." LO fucking L ... what happened wih gavino? 21:25:13 minion: logs? 21:25:14 I banned him 21:25:16 minion? 21:25:44 where'd you see that soundbite, drewc? 21:25:44 it's not very interesting 21:25:51 bernie1 [~bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:54 don't let it waste more than a picosecond of your time 21:26:13 oh, no no interesting drama, just gavino being gavino. 21:26:14 OK, so, just for future, if I get into stuff like that and I've fixed the source code, how do I restore the environment back to a consistent state without restarting slime? 21:26:37 , restart-inferior-lisp ? 21:26:45 Fade: oh, OK 21:26:47 RaceCondition: that really depends on what you've done... that's the problem with undefined behaviour... 21:26:50 it's undefined 21:26:58 -!- milanj [~milan@79.101.204.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:27:04 -!- bernie1 [~bernie@bas33-4-88-180-245-209.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 21:27:25 RaceCondition: your :use mishap could have erased your entire lisp compiler of your drive and still be conforming CL :P 21:27:25 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:27:29 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-39.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:27:39 can I just obliterate a package out of existence, btw? 21:27:56 (not that it _should_ mind, or that CCL is doing TRT here anyway) 21:28:01 RaceCondition: you could delete it 21:28:10 if you ask me how i'm kicking you 21:28:23 thanks for the warning 21:28:29 :D 21:28:52 Fade: the quote was from c.l.l 21:29:24 RaceCondition: restart-inferior-lisp is quite useful when you're at a point where you've done questionable things to your image. 21:29:36 drewc: *nod* 21:29:44 Fade: good to know, thanks :) 21:31:55 unless of course, your :use mishap has erased your hard drive, as drewc pointed out. :) 21:32:05 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 21:32:18 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:32:38 Fade: I count on CCL not to do that :P 21:33:14 lisp will do what you tell it. it is optimised to ensure you have enough rope, not to prevent you from putting your head in a noose. :) 21:33:40 leo2007 annotated #94198 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94198#1 21:33:48 RaceCondition: Don't worry, CCL will only erase your hard drive if you mess up when using nested quasi-quoting. 21:33:49 lisp has a lot of protection in place, but if you aim for your foot, well... 21:34:10 sellout: I better start making backups then 21:34:24 actually it has nothing to do with the load-hook. 21:34:46 well, I wouldn't have thought that a failing package declaration could screw up a whole image... 21:34:53 sellout: I've just done some nested quasi-quoting yesterday! 21:35:03 then I managed to rewrite it not to do that anymore 21:35:35 but the amazing thing was that, aside from ,',@body, I've managed to get most things right the first time 21:35:46 I mean, if I compile, there's an error, I abort, shouldn't it leave things just as they were before compilation? at least it would be intuitive 21:35:54 and that I knew to use ,',@ without googling 21:36:00 -!- prxq [~mommer@g230129231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:30 I wonder if anyone does triple quasiquotes and what the punishment for that is... 21:37:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-250.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:38:39 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757d88.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:02 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:39:31 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:02 -!- ejs [~eugen@92.49.201.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:40:32 Fade: basically, will I have to restart-inf-lisp each time I make a typo in a :use declaration? 21:40:46 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:41:01 good lord no. 21:41:33 delete the package, retry! 21:41:51 mathrick: check out define-unibyte-encoder in babel/src/encodings.lisp 21:42:13 francogrex [~user@91.180.89.192] has joined #lisp 21:42:16 mathrick: the punishment is having to debug them ((: 21:42:39 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229144212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:42:41 antifuchs: oh, great :P for some reason I couldn't find the delete-package function before 21:42:51 insert 'Z in (list 1 2 3 4 5) to be (list 1 2 3 'Z 4 5) ? 21:42:53 RaceCondition: well, there you go (: 21:43:05 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:43:52 without regenerating the list 21:44:36 antifuchs: just curious, why couldn't defpackage manage that automatically? any particular reason? 21:44:41 How marketable a skill is Lisp? 21:44:51 fe[nl]ix: cute, too bad you didn't have any lists for visual variety there :) 21:44:55 depends on the crowd, Darxus 21:44:58 Darxus: depends 21:45:11 I live in the greater Boston area, and plan to stay here. 21:45:13 ikki [~ikki@189.139.222.1] has joined #lisp 21:45:22 it's not merely a geographical thing 21:45:29 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:45:43 RaceCondition: I am not sure - I think the intent is to run the defpackage form only once (which is not what you want when developing). it's still far better than using the package manipulation function, IMHO, though (: 21:45:44 aren't ITAs headquarters in Boston? 21:45:47 it's mainly about what kind of work are you looking for 21:45:54 mathrick: i think so 21:46:02 What kind of work is Lisp marketable for? 21:46:11 antifuchs: ah 21:46:20 Darxus: not banking Java 21:46:33 mathrick: What? 21:46:56 basically, if you're content with being a drone in a large corporation, Lisp is the least marketable skill you can get 21:47:22 Yeah, I've gotten the impression Java is great for that, and it has made me less interested in Java. 21:47:23 lol 21:47:29 antifuchs: oh, I forgot defpackage was a macro... 21:47:30 if you think programming can be replaced by careful design, lisp is probably not for you :) 21:47:33 Darxus: then you're on a good way 21:47:41 phromo [phromo@c-cfc3e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:46 Darxus: Lisp is the antithesis of things Java was made for 21:48:09 So what kind of work is Lisp a marketable skill for? 21:48:14 mathrick: Yeah I've gathered. 21:48:22 Darxus: the kind you can sell it for :) 21:48:29 lisp is a general-purpose programming language ;) 21:48:36 being Java's antithesis implies not having ready answers 21:48:40 amongst other things 21:48:53 antifuchs: btw, what do you have against fuchses? 21:48:55 guaqua: I ask because when I asked how marketable Lisp is, the response I got was that it depends on the kind of work. 21:49:16 You guys are doing a poor job of selling Lisp :) 21:49:21 yes 21:49:23 nothing - it's an old pun on my full name (: 21:49:25 that is a problem 21:49:32 Darxus: sry, too busy improving it (: 21:49:35 antifuchs: k :P 21:49:36 Darxus: it's good for tricky things, working on multiple levels of abstraction 21:49:40 a problem the lisp community is painfully aware of 21:49:45 I have fixed the issue. Thanks for attention. 21:49:51 mathrick: That answer is far more vague than I was hoping for. 21:49:54 it's a "problem" if you think the "solution" is telling lies 21:50:00 and at the same time embraces it because it also keeps certain crowd away :) 21:50:03 Darxus: because it's like matrix 21:50:09 you can't be told what it's good for 21:50:13 guaqua: not all of us consider it to be a problem 21:50:27 mathrick: see the line after that :) 21:50:28 the crowd-control values are an advantage in my book 21:50:30 lisp skills have got me a lot of international travel, a couple of very well-paid and highly interesting jobs, and a fun hobby 21:50:40 plus a lot of people I count as friends 21:50:43 mathrick: The matrix thing was a total lie. The matrix is the virtual reality the character lived in, which he thought was the real world, to keep him alive and producing energy for the robots. 21:50:44 so there. (: 21:50:47 antifuchs: I'm working on the first two items still :) 21:51:15 Darxus: but similarly you can't be told what it is while you're in it 21:51:30 mathrick: Neo could totally have been told. 21:51:54 the best answer is still "the kind of thing you can successfully use it for". It depends on you as much as on Lisp 21:52:22 with lisp you are less likely to run into limits within the programming language 21:52:25 it's usually not when you expect a ready-made solution which'll hand-hold you and give you a stock product in five easy steps 21:52:48 i don't know how much this is a technical as much it is a social feature 21:52:56 guaqua: you mean technical limits? because other limits exist.. 21:52:59 Do you think it is wise business practice for Google to use primarily Java and C++ and use no Lisp, just because it's easier to replace the programmers? 21:53:30 Darxus: I don't know, I know I don't think google is all that great a place to work at I used to think it was 21:53:46 I can't say if it's wise without being google 21:54:03 I wouldn't have done that, but then I also don't have 100k servers to man 21:54:28 I think using C++ in general is a really stupid thing to do 21:55:16 One of the things that has really killed my motivation to learn Lisp for years is doubt that I'll ever convince employeers to let me use it. 21:55:31 So how do I convince them to let me use it? 21:55:50 when it's time, you will know :) 21:55:58 Learning Lisp may very well make you a better programmer in whatever other language you use. 21:55:59 Darxus: many people are using lisp only for their own personal productivity maintaining the code in blessed languages 21:56:23 also, usually you can convince people by demonstrating the benefits 21:57:09 You guys really are bad at this :) 21:57:27 people have been known to do all kinds of things, from writing their own little scripts to do whatever menial task, to writing full Lisp-to-C compilers and generating C for their job in them 21:57:32 Darxus: I don't think anyone really cares about convincing you. 21:57:48 lol 21:57:52 Darxus: I don't know what you're expecting, but you're not getting a Watchtower issue here 21:58:00 Wow mathrick, that's really commitment to list lol 21:58:09 lisp* oops 21:58:17 jsfb: more like laziness 21:58:26 C is a pain to write 21:58:34 but it's relatively easy to generate 21:59:07 Well, writing a lisp to C translator would still not be without effort, hmm, I'd have to think about how much... 21:59:16 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 21:59:16 it's easier in Lisp than in anything else 21:59:17 lisp is even easier, its got a built in mechanism for generation, hehe 21:59:20 Darxus: you shouldn't take this as an insult, this is just how it works here :) 21:59:26 Oh I'll agree with that 21:59:31 jsfb: a quick job would be done in one day probably 21:59:39 depending on how sophisticated you need it to be 21:59:47 that's the rub I think 21:59:57 Younder [~jthing@233.159.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:00:09 guaqua: Oh I'm not insulted, or surprised. 22:00:22 no easy answers 22:00:25 no shortcuts 22:00:41 I mean if you want to write code and do it in a lispy way, the translator might not be that useful would it? 22:00:59 I think its good to know a few languages, gives a broader perspective, and a choice of tools in your toolbox 22:01:00 jsfb: why not? 22:01:17 i think generating DSLs is as lispy as it can get 22:01:30 Guthur: What languages? 22:01:38 writing c by hand is less painful than integrating compiler-generated c into multi-developer project 22:01:58 Darxus: as dissimilar ones as possible 22:01:58 when you have actual people (other than you) who would have to read the code 22:02:05 varjag: nonsense 22:02:06 varjag: bah, no. Compile and link! 22:02:07 jsfb: lisp to C is pretty easy... it's just closure converison and CPS tranformation ;) 22:02:12 varjag: that's another thing to consider 22:02:15 Well at the minute I am using CL, C, python, and the tiniest bit of ARM assembler 22:02:18 -!- pjb [~t@90.Red-88-30-103.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:02:32 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-245-211.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:41 jsfb: www.iro.umontreal.ca/~boucherd/mslug/meetings/.../90-min.../90-min-scc.pdf 22:02:43 but would it look to other C programmers as native C? I think it wouldn't 22:02:45 pkhuong: link in boehm-wesier while you at it, too :) 22:02:53 jsfb: exactly 22:02:58 jsfb: what does (lambda (x) x) look like in native C? 22:03:14 I pure functional language like Haskell might be worth experimenting with as well 22:03:34 and maybe erlang for concurrent programming 22:03:39 I mean if you want to write code and do it in a lispy way, the translator might not be that useful would it? <-- just having C with real macros and strings would be enough to boost your productivity tenfold 22:03:55 and making a generator for a lispy syntax of C is trivial 22:04:17 you will be in the world of pain if you have to modify compiler-generated c later] 22:05:06 I'm thinking of other maintainers of the *translated* code... the idea is to make the employer happy you use "C" and not "lisp" right? 22:05:15 How does (if any) differ collaborating on lisp source from collaborating on let's say C source in your experience? 22:05:17 that's obviously not the best way forward if you have a module five people work on 22:05:41 mathrick: do you really think lisp macros is all C needs to be 10x more productive? 22:05:46 jsfb: you don't maintain translated code. That's pure insanity. 22:05:48 but if you have a large body of code to write, it makes perfect sense to invest one day of your time into a generator and then write the rest in half the time 22:05:52 drewc: and strings :) 22:06:00 You never modify generated C period. The first time you make changes in the original (untranslated) code you would loose all you changes.. 22:06:01 my point pkhuong 22:06:15 mathrick: heh... have you done any programming? 22:06:17 but that was the point, no 22:06:21 drewc: but I consider "I wrote it in half the time" a good enough tenfold 22:06:23 to pretend you code in c 22:06:26 The motivation was offered as a solution to an employer wanting you to program their stuff in C 22:06:29 while you do actual work in lisp 22:06:33 mathrick: oh.. FSVO 10 22:06:37 yeah 22:06:37 that wouldn't fly 22:06:43 mathrick: binary 10 22:06:53 varjag: depends on the reason for wanting C: is it a toolchain issue, or do they really want everyone to work in C? 22:06:58 big endian :) 22:07:05 :) 22:07:06 Freshmeat has 9262 projects tagged "C", 3853 tagged "Perl", and no Lisp tag. 22:07:10 The supposition is they want *everyone* to work in C 22:07:18 Darxus: what's your point? 22:07:34 varjag: usually bugfixing is much less automatable anyway, so there's not much point in trying to make it foolproof here 22:07:42 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-181-46.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:07:45 drewc: I don't understand why some people think Lisp is so awesome, but it's so uncommonly used. 22:07:50 but it's not unusual that you have heaps of mundane code to write 22:08:09 anyway, I just found it funny the idea of making such a translator in response to an employer not wanting to use lisp etc 22:08:16 "I don't understand why some people think skydiving is so awesome, but it's so uncommonly done" 22:08:16 Darxus: trolling lisp is so 90s 22:08:18 Darxus: MTV has 35 britney spears' videos, many kayne west, but no django rienhardt 22:08:35 Darxus: Kayne west must be better than Django! 22:08:52 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:08:58 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:09:02 Darxus: or, conflating popularity with quaility is something only the truely ignorant do ;) 22:09:07 drewc: sure, he has more dough 22:09:19 sepult` [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:34bd:4cbd:a8b1:b45a] has joined #lisp 22:09:31 don't forget all the whiny black girls with not much vocal talent, but a lot of rhythmical section support 22:09:45 and auto-tune 22:10:07 heh ... eclipse is the autotune of programming? 22:10:11 yes 22:10:22 eclipse, the window manager? 22:10:23 drewc: that URL to the PDF didn't work due to the "..." in it do you have a full one? 22:10:28 drewc, yet isn't that how government is determined? 22:10:32 stassats: that would be no :) 22:10:53 Fare: that's because all the other methods we've tried failed even worse 22:10:59 Fare: don't get me started ... tyranny of the ignorant majority 22:11:13 mathrick: that's bullshit 22:11:40 Fare: a good monarch is infinitely better than any democratic government. But if your heir happens to be mildly retarded, you have a big problem 22:11:45 mathrick, if by "failed" you mean "were conquered / uprooted" independently from how happy they made their citizens, granted 22:11:50 mathrick: unless by failind you mean 'taken over by 22:11:53 what he said 22:12:08 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:12:25 mm 22:12:32 "not being able to protect yourself" certainly counts as failing, but even if not, what examples would you cite? 22:12:37 much as I would love to wade in, libertarian nutjobness is OFF TOPIC 22:13:05 mathrick: Krystof is right... but do read a little about the topic willya? 22:13:09 /set mode #lisp -t :) 22:13:28 trolling about forms of government is so noughties 22:13:30 actually, freshmeat has a Common Lisp tag. At 63 projects, it's not heavily used (hey, clbuild alone has 230 projects listed). Interestingly, it has lots of projects not in clbuild. 22:13:32 mathrick: the spanish civil war is a good period of time to look into 22:13:40 noted 22:13:42 drewc never mind, I found it anyway 22:13:52 jsfb: google is a wonderful thing :) 22:13:57 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:14:07 cl directory is useful 22:14:18 didn't use google, just clipped the first visible part and poked around 22:14:19 drewc: and it's popular! 22:14:25 <_deepfire> lichtblau, a coincidence, desire also has 230 packages in the buildbot 22:14:54 -!- sepult` [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:34bd:4cbd:a8b1:b45a] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:15:00 stassats: not all popular things are shite, it's just that popularity has little to do with lack of shiteness :) 22:15:40 sepult`` [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:45 -!- francogrex [~user@91.180.89.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:29 (and ecerything to do with mediocrity) 22:16:34 later #lisp, gotta jet for a while. Thanks for the pdf drewc sounds like a fun little exercise 22:16:34 every* 22:16:48 -!- jsfb [~jon@pool-96-231-114-178.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:02 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 -!- sepult`` is now known as sepult 22:18:51 lichtblau: Thanks (common lisp tag). 22:20:04 <_deepfire> Xach, therep 22:20:07 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 22:20:12 is there a semi-painless way to implement a command line in lisp 22:20:15 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 22:20:34 (at least from this conversation i know that freshmeat is still alive) 22:20:51 /msg NickServ identify revenge4u 22:20:53 argh 22:21:05 .. 22:21:25 hehe oops 22:21:43 HET2: better change em all 22:21:46 <_deepfire> HET3, I have a library which is supposed to simplify it - it has an implementation of running processes as a UNIX pipe 22:21:50 drewc, trying now :/ 22:21:53 <_deepfire> er, HET2 22:21:59 nice password 22:22:05 stassats, used to be 22:22:10 see, revenge is bittersweet 22:22:24 HET2: what do you mean by 'implement a command line' ? 22:22:43 guess something like scsh 22:22:49 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:14 nono 22:23:18 more like something like readline 22:23:19 varjag: that's a command shell... i suspect not 22:23:43 HET2: why not just use readline? 22:23:44 HET2: There's cl-readline and linedit 22:23:45 something that easies sanity checks on user input etc. 22:23:49 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:04 mm interesting 22:24:08 thx 22:24:16 HET2: you mean a command shell for an application, or a unix shell, or just for talking to your lisp? 22:24:24 first 22:24:25 drewc: shell is also known as command line interface :) 22:24:49 varjag: some shells are command line interfaces 22:25:01 varjag: some command line interfaces are shells 22:25:14 right 22:25:21 varjag: all shells are not command line interfaces 22:25:29 argh <-- that's why you never do it in a channel 22:25:34 *Fare* seeks comments for http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/xcvb/asdf.git;a=blob;f=README.asdf-output-locations;h=82b8299246ed77b8c9c5c6e689911ae954737baa;hb=29e4b8e6919d5281b6fb5198388e3cfd5bbbe402 22:25:41 that's why i do it automatically 22:25:43 mathrick, yeah usually i do it automatically on login 22:25:56 mathrick, but for some reason here my connection keeps dropping which makes my nick change 22:26:05 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:26:08 mathrick, eitherway - classic pbkac 22:26:27 HET2: just rlwap the repl 22:26:43 HET2: yeah, but that's why I always make sure to switch to a non-channel tab when that happens 22:26:46 HET2: http://utopia.knoware.nl/~hlub/uck/rlwrap/man.html 22:27:15 drewc, i actually don't want to run that from outside 22:27:23 HET2: then you can just write your own REPL on top with your custom command language 22:27:29 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-242-204.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:31 HET2: is you application GPL? 22:27:45 Is there any open source application written in Lisp that I'm likely to have used? 22:27:53 drewc, yes and i was asking if there's something that makes the process easier because "just" is a word prone to many interpretations 22:27:57 Darxus: no, lisp sucks and it's not for you 22:27:59 and no 22:28:06 jimster [~jimster@cpe-70-116-158-133.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:16 (no @gpl) 22:28:19 HET2: it's not GPL? then you definately want to run taht from outside 22:28:28 HET2: do you know why clisp is GPL? 22:28:29 -!- phromo [phromo@c-cfc3e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 22:28:29 :P 22:28:36 drewc, err no 22:28:38 does it matter? 22:28:39 hint: it's not cause they wanted to be 22:28:58 because they're spineless! 22:29:31 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:37 stassats: ya, i'd say that's fair :) 22:31:24 HET2: a repl looks like (loop (print (eval (read)))) 22:31:45 err i don't want a repl though 22:31:50 too many braces :) 22:31:52 right 22:32:02 so you swap out read and eval 22:32:07 it's still trivial 22:32:25 (loop (print (eval (read-my-syntax-to-lisp-forms)))) 22:32:40 dude 22:32:41 nevermind 22:33:29 Fare: I'll read that tomorrow 22:35:07 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:53 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:41 "ClearLisp is a Common LISP interpreter written in C# with the purpose of scripting in a .NET or Mono environment." Heh. 22:36:48 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:50 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:39:35 alright. cl-beanstalk now implements the entire beanstalk protocol. In 320 lines of code. Pretty amazing what you can do with a bit of abstraction. 22:39:45 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:40:11 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 22:42:20 nice 22:43:55 gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:55 -!- gibsonf1 [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:12 clhs symbol-value 22:45:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 22:45:49 <_deepfire> Apropos the GPL-ness of readline -- there's an API-compatible editline, which is supposed to be BSD. 22:46:37 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:06 yes, there is 22:47:18 however, stallman made puppy eyes, and they folded. 22:47:32 just read the email trail between RMS and the author of CLISP, makes me more nervous about using GPL stuff 22:48:28 drewc: *definitely 22:48:47 antifuchs: oh damn him and his lunacy 22:49:27 damn his cuteness! and his soft fur! his droopy eyes and oversized ears! 22:49:31 -!- gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:47 he's got a katana now 22:49:48 hrmm... the spec for symbol value is not exactly clear is it. 22:49:50 not so cute anymore 22:50:02 tensorpudding: that's alsmost as reassuring as ESR having guns 22:50:04 gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:11 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 22:50:44 drewc: what do you need to know? It seems clearl enough to me 22:51:46 mathrick: i need to know if i'm allowed to use the symbol-value as a simple slot : (setf (symbol-value 'foo) 1) (symbol-value 'foo). I've always figured i could.... 22:52:13 but never actually looked hard at the wording 22:52:18 drewc: "as a simple slot"? 22:52:33 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:52:42 -!- gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:23 drewc: but if you mean "does it need initialising?", then no. All symbols come with value cells in them 22:53:31 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-208-87.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:53:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-6-186.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:33 -!- Geralt [~Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:33 mathrick: no... gimme a break here. 22:53:42 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-6-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:43 gibsonf1` [~user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:44 k 22:53:52 "Should signal unbound-variable if symbol is unbound and an attempt is made to read its value." 22:54:31 yes 22:55:12 -!- drwho [~d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:55:32 tankrim [~qsvans@c-93fce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:55:53 what does it mean for a symbol to be bound? following the links to the glossary leads to the conclusion that (SETF SYMBOL-VALUE) does not create a binding for that symbol... and if it does have i now created a variable.... which leads back to the debate on SETQ 22:58:34 -!- Tabmow is now known as evilTabmow 22:58:36 -!- fsl [~fsl@auf186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.1] 22:58:43 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:10 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 23:00:24 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 23:00:52 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:03:31 -!- evilTabmow is now known as Tabmow 23:04:10 A symbol itself isn't boun. But the slots of the symbol can be. So is you try to acess the symbol to get a value with out assigning it first it fites a unbound exception. 23:06:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:04 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:07:11 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:08:32 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.22] has joined #lisp 23:10:24 -!- dsop [dsp@ns.experimentalworks.net] has left #lisp 23:11:36 sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:34bd:4cbd:a8b1:b45a] has joined #lisp 23:14:56 -!- xokres [ola@d01-0124b.kn.vutbr.cz] has quit [] 23:15:18 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:24 Younder: your gibberish does not address my question, and is also wrong... symbols most certainly have bindings. The question is if (SETF SYMBOL-VALUE) doesn't create one, then is it true that you cannot portably access the value using SYMBOL-VALUE, without a SPECIAL declaration. 23:16:16 drewc, you could circumvent the need to even ask that question by programming in Arc 23:17:19 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-183-190.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 23:17:48 Adlai: or scheme, or clojure, or even probably all common lisp implementations 23:18:55 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:18:59 Adlai: it's just a correctness issue... i'll wrap a locally special around my use of symbol-value if that's what the clhs says, which i think it does. 23:19:12 right, well, correctness is important 23:19:45 -!- sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:34bd:4cbd:a8b1:b45a] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:20:10 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 23:20:24 clhs boundp 23:20:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm 23:20:35 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:06 -!- Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:59 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 23:22:41 clhs setq 23:22:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-6-186.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:22:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 23:22:56 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-10-30.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:30 -!- plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:27 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip72-204-42-139.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:01 how come there're few (i've seen none) datastructures and algorithms textbooks in lisp? 23:26:21 i've seen numerous ones for pascal/c(++)/java etc. but never lisp. 23:26:22 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:26:52 bjorkintosh: audience? 23:27:12 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-90207.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:27:38 audience? readers of introductory lisp manuals, for instance. 23:27:39 bjorkintosh: why would the language used for pseudocode matter? 23:28:03 pkhuong, it ought not indeed, as proved by the great unreadable knuth's books. 23:28:11 however, i find it remarkable that there're next to none! 23:28:20 i'm just puzzled. not complaining really. 23:28:33 bjorkintosh: common lisp is not a language for students really 23:28:47 bjorkintosh: see scheme, i'm sure you'll find lots of texts there. 23:28:48 There really aren't that many Lisp books to begin with. 23:28:54 and that 23:29:57 lisp is best learned interactively, and it's challenging to write a book which does that justice 23:30:10 i've specifically seen two of them for ocaml and i think haskell. 23:30:41 adlai: need a REPL enable kindle like 23:30:51 enabled* 23:30:54 bjorkintosh: http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-1.html 23:31:01 Guthur, I'm sorry what did you just say? :\ 23:31:18 nvm 23:32:17 drewc, i've seen that as well. i just wondered why in all this time, common lisp had been skipped. 23:32:21 and you answered that question. 23:32:31 common lisp: it's not a toy. 23:32:49 bjorkintosh: we have Knuth, what else do you need? :P 23:33:19 we also have the encyclopedia britannica, but i personally prefer wiki. 23:33:30 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:40 i don't want to become knuth, i want to do other things too. 23:33:41 bjorkintosh: in the cases of scheme, haskell and ocaml, they are functional languages demonstrating different techniques. A CL text would simply be 'here's how to steal things from any other text' 23:33:50 drewc: knuth, and okasaki ;) 23:33:54 ah. 23:34:11 are the examples from okasaki's books readily applicable to lisp? 23:34:17 i haven't read it so i have no idea. 23:34:46 pkhuong: yeah, indeed... and in CL we can have it both ways :) 23:35:05 bjorkintosh: CL is the borg, it all applies. 23:35:58 bjorkintosh: we have TAGBODY, we have LAMBDA. :P 23:36:17 lambda hurts the brain intentionally. 23:36:19 and to make it all look like lisp, DEFMACRO 23:36:46 -!- madsy [~madsy@ti0207a340-1380.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:37:31 bjorkintosh: sounds like your cup might be too full 23:37:42 how so? 23:38:11 lambda's only for mathematicians c.a. 1920something who've never seen a computer. :D 23:38:53 ... 23:38:58 bjorkintosh, just think of it as an anonymous procedure 23:39:05 nothing abstract there 23:39:57 thanks for the htdp heads up, drewc. i think i might read it afterall. 23:40:01 bjorkintosh: http://library.readscheme.org/page1.html 23:40:11 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 23:40:25 bjorkintosh: LAMBDA: The Ultimate GOTO is a must read 23:40:32 alright. 23:40:41 hopefully shake you up enough to spill some of your tea 23:40:59 heheh. 23:41:12 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-137-74.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:50 i just got to chapter six of winston and horn's lisp book. that's what made me wonder about datastructure text books with lisp code examples. 23:42:21 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Quit: Meow, meOUT!] 23:42:37 cmeow [~cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 23:42:45 bjorkintosh: a datastructure is a datastructure, the implementation language is really just a detail 23:43:11 i know that. but given how ancient and modern lisp is, i thought there simply might be more. 23:44:44 -!- stoop [~stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44:47 bjorkintosh: there is, in scheme, and if you read the old ACM papers 23:45:14 free acm papers? 23:45:20 bjorkintosh: but no 'hears how to implement a b-tree in common lisp' type stuff, as it's not usually used as a language for teaching 23:45:28 here's * 23:45:32 *drewc* turns red 23:45:48 bjorkintosh: indeed... and the AIM stuff too... 23:45:57 you might start at, oh, AIM-8 23:46:08 free acm papers? where?! 23:46:25 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.83] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:47:08 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:48:04 http://portal.acm.org/browse_dl.cfm?linked=1&part=newsletter&idx=J1166&coll=portal&dl=ACM 23:48:51 http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ has loads of good stuff 23:49:13 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 23:49:40 most of it is 'how to implement lisp on a machine' rather than 'how to implement stuff in lisp', but there's a lot of that too 23:49:45 and of course, there is PAIP 23:51:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:23 PAIP is a mighty good source 23:54:07 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:16 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-208-87.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 23:54:17 noted. 23:55:16 _deepfire: hello 23:55:37 sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:34bd:4cbd:a8b1:b45a] has joined #lisp 23:56:12 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:56:27 omg (read) is awsome 23:56:38 -!- ttt-- [~ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:57:08 -!- Tabmow [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Quit: reboot] 23:57:24 drewc, i've had a close look at PAIP and it looks a bit useless tbh 23:57:27 quite dated 23:57:41 that's a useless statement 23:57:58 -!- sepult [~levgue@2001:0:53aa:64c:34bd:4cbd:a8b1:b45a] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:57:58 i don't know - the examples were on strips planning 23:58:20 may be fine for an undergraduate AI course but... 23:58:28 it's not about AI 23:58:30 there is chapters devout entirely to CL 23:58:46 stassats, yeah that must be why it has AI in the name 23:59:03 HET2: it uses classic AI problems as examples 23:59:34 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:59:45 yes and it offers old solutions to classic problems which are still valid and have much more recent standard approaches 23:59:47 Tabmow [~terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp