00:00:33 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@DNab4222a8.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:00:46 gibranian1 [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has joined #lisp 00:01:08 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:45 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:44 -!- Buganini_ [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:22 gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.90.20] has joined #lisp 00:06:12 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 00:06:56 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:49 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:26 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:31 Blkt` [n=user@host-78-13-240-200.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:09:05 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:09:15 -!- ente [i=bf94446e@unaffiliated/n0nsense] has left #lisp 00:09:45 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 00:10:32 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10:37 Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 00:11:01 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 00:11:15 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:25 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-127.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 Hmm, I just updated slime and sbcl and now I'm getting an error when I try to load swank. It's coming from swank-fancy-inspector: The value (0.0) is not of type REAL. 00:16:49 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.76.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:49 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:18:30 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:32 orgullocachanill [n=Tijuanen@201.171.75.127.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:32 -!- orgullocachanill [n=Tijuanen@201.171.75.127.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has left #lisp 00:21:56 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:46 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:22:46 -!- gibranian1 [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has left #lisp 00:23:15 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.202.33] has joined #lisp 00:23:50 Dawgmatix: unfortunately, the CL-supported version dropped AMQP bridge... 00:24:07 ok, i got the cannot load libglut error with a newer version again 00:24:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94016 00:24:29 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.90.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:51 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-127.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:25:52 -!- Blkt [n=user@host-78-13-246-202.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:18 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:27:13 drewc: this is mesa3d 7.4, compiled without an error, and works with its own demos, but when i try to run cl-opengl, i got the same error again 00:28:02 i mean this was the error i've been getting before the get-option not defined error 00:28:06 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:09 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 00:30:44 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-107.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 00:32:45 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:33:33 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:36:41 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:38:18 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 00:38:59 gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.90.20] has joined #lisp 00:39:55 gibranian: The first obvious questions are "does the file in question exist", and "are its dependencies where it expects to find them?" 00:40:19 Double-check LD_LIBRARY_PATH and such, for example. 00:47:57 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@171.66.90.20] has quit [Client Quit] 00:49:20 nyef: yes, the libglut.so and the other is in the location it searches for, if the location it searches is really the path written at the second line of error. and LD_LIBRARY_PATH is also fine, the thing is i just realized that when i make install, and ldconfig -p | grep glut, it shows nothing while it successfully shows the gl libraries 00:50:52 so there really seems to be a problem with glut itself, but i don't understand, how does mesa run its own examples 00:52:08 -!- Guest78648 [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-185.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:52:14 Blkt`` [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-243-132.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:52:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:57 GurpMan [n=geezsain@sea-gw.practicepartner.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:26 anyone home? 00:55:48 Anyway - just inquiring as to the jobs situation 00:56:15 -!- Blkt` [n=user@host-78-13-240-200.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:56:32 hmm 00:57:35 -!- GurpMan [n=geezsain@sea-gw.practicepartner.com] has left #lisp 00:57:40 GurpMan [n=geezsain@sea-gw.practicepartner.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:02 Mezner [n=Mezner@c-24-99-183-225.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:10 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:58:28 This is now CL's theme song: http://mnvl.org/quad/musica/04%20-%20Chordettes%20-%20Mr%20Sandman.flac 01:05:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:06:18 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 01:09:19 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:12:42 ragnul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:17 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:59 -!- ragnul is now known as rahul 01:16:06 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:19:13 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442389.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 01:19:28 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442389.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:19:37 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@adsl-69-232-207-244.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 01:20:14 -!- GurpMan [n=geezsain@sea-gw.practicepartner.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:21:46 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:43 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 01:24:08 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:24:27 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 01:26:38 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:27:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:49 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 01:32:32 dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 hmm, anyone know a good way to download potentially big files with drakma without keeping them in memory? 01:33:14 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:44 ie. I have some downloads which, while generally small, can sometimes reach 60-90MB and I don't want to build an in-memory response, since I want to dump that into a file immediately anyway 01:34:11 probably isn't a way now 01:34:17 but there will be if you make one! 01:34:39 sure, but I know that already. I wanted to know if there is a way right now 01:34:39 you'd probably want some API where you specify a stream to write to immediately when you open the URL 01:34:57 yes, that's what I thought of as well 01:40:15 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 01:40:36 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.10] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:40:40 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 01:42:18 rahul: I guess I can sort of work around it for now by just requesting ranges, since I'm told up-front how big the file I'll be requesting is 01:42:58 -!- Blkt`` [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-243-132.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:43:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-zshbwcxlyugwnqmh] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:43:37 heh, I guess 01:47:15 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:45 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:29 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Success] 01:54:16 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:59:18 -!- davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:18 -!- malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:53 koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 02:03:15 chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-155-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 02:09:35 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 02:11:48 -!- tobetchi [n=tobetchi@p296b28.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:36 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-141-157-12-68.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:28 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:03 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:18:59 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.117.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:20:02 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:20:40 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:37 porcelina_ [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:48 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:04 ogait [i=filipe@d01-0124a.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #lisp 02:23:44 aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has joined #lisp 02:25:35 -!- porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:36 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:43 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:50 -!- aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has left #lisp 02:32:51 mgst11 [n=mgst11@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:12 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:56 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:41:57 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:58 What test framework do you recommend? I've looked at rt, lisp-unit, stefil. The slime integration with stefil is a benefit, but it has heavy dependencies: swank, alexandria, met. 02:42:20 metabang-bind, and others. 02:42:34 Seems users shouldn't have to install swank just to run the tests. 02:42:41 I like fiveam 02:43:35 was going to try that next. But if you don't get signals on the errors, isn't that inconvenient? 02:44:12 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:45:25 rt has the curious nature of being 20 years old. And it's bundled with sbcl. 02:45:29 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@204.52.135.62] has quit ["leaving"] 02:45:54 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:49 -!- Wraithan [n=wraithan@74.207.234.252] has left #lisp 02:48:40 i like ASSERT 02:49:49 i've used stefil, it's quite nice when ASSERT is not enough... but a bit too heavy-weight for most of my needs 02:50:24 though i can't say swank is the problem, 100% of the people who use my code also use slime, AFAIK :) 02:51:41 do you get signals with ASSERT, or do you just look at the *inferior-lisp* output? 02:52:02 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:52:15 i hit the debugger 02:53:41 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:54:55 stefil is convenient because I see the results right in the eval output at the bottom. Though I could pipe ASSERT or 5am output there. 02:55:28 or just rig up *inferior-lisp* to appear 02:56:54 ah but I wouldn't see the output for a remote connection. 02:59:39 lukego [n=lukegorr@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 03:00:43 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@119.110.101.218] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:11 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:07:30 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:23 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]"] 03:14:41 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 03:15:34 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:37 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:17:51 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:51 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:20:14 rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 03:21:56 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440502.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:22:36 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 03:23:13 gonzojive_ [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:25:28 I am currently implementing a Scheme/Lisp interpreter as a robot scripting framework (C++). 03:25:33 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 03:25:53 Any suggestions? Obviously there will be primitives such as (set-left-motor x) or (get-x-pos). 03:26:28 -!- chessguy [n=chessguy@pool-96-255-155-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:26:32 why not use an existing scripting system, like guile? 03:27:32 -!- Terminus [n=justin@116.50.188.3] has quit ["leaving"] 03:28:05 It's way too large; I almost adapted the interpreter...just have to add C++ bindings. 03:28:06 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:30:50 So during autonomous mode, the interpreter will read a file containing a scheme script, which will control movement based upon position (determined from Kalman-based AINS navigation system) and camera target detection. 03:31:12 I wonder if CCL will get ported to Apple's ARM chip in the iPad. 03:31:29 malsyned: So do I! 03:32:09 owvaqhlvr [n=wfqtehoh@bl8-6-36.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 03:32:09 -!- owvaqhlvr [n=wfqtehoh@bl8-6-36.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:26 I'm sure Lisp/Scheme will be overkill for this, but it does open up a lot of creative possibilities (actual AI?) compared to the existing BASIC-like interpreter. 03:33:11 Just wait for android tablets :) 03:34:33 Zhivago, what lisp would you use on them? CLISP? ECL? The options for ARM seem to me to be limited. 03:34:34 why bother when ARM systems already exist :P 03:35:24 malsyned: Don't forget ABCL, clojure, etc. 03:35:40 actually, I'd rather forget about clojure. 03:35:53 I guess that jealousy is like that. 03:35:54 What do you guys think about Lisp/Scheme controlling a robot? 03:35:54 Zhivago, ah yeah, ABCL is a good point. I haven't looked at that implementation much. 03:36:17 rouslan: There are probably worse ideas. 03:36:45 Zhivago: ? 03:37:01 Brainfuck, for example. 03:37:15 Maybe Unlambda. 03:38:31 Man, the cl-gtk2 blog has all this recent stuff about work he's done on the single-threaded version and how it's more like the multi-threaded version, but I can't seem to get even the demos working satisfactorily on a single-threaded sbcl. Wonder what lisp he's running on. 03:39:05 rouslan: if you're already using C++, I'm surprised you didn't turn to Lua 03:40:00 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-11-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:28 Phoodus: I also considered TCL, but I ended up porting TinyScheme (http://tinyscheme.sourceforge.net/home.html) 03:40:35 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:37 jeremy__1 [n=jeremy__@113.sub-75-250-154.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 Zhivago: That's the sort of response I would expect to hear after asking a 500lb man in a speedo to stop rubbing his stomach at me. The object of disgust is no more appealing in either case. I don't think I'm very jealous. 03:41:00 Why does it disgust you? 03:42:08 it's a pretentious eyesore. 03:43:19 Phoodus: How should I configure the environment? Start with defining primitive functions mapped to bindings? (e.g. (move-left-motor x)) 03:43:22 -!- Mezner is now known as Mezner-athome 03:43:27 -!- mgst11 [n=mgst11@c-24-60-190-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43:48 rouslan: That's where I'd start. However, I don't know where your CPU time will be spent 03:44:08 Is this on an embedded CPU or on a full-on PC? 03:44:17 Phoodus: 400 MHz PPC 03:44:37 since your language is interpreted, you probably aren't going to be able to do heavy lifting math-wise in your scripts 03:45:01 "your language is interpreted" <- this is an error in your thinking. 03:45:05 Of course, that will be left to C++/C/asm code. 03:45:17 Don't confuse "language" with "implementation". 03:45:47 Zhivago: But OMG my programming language is teh fastest!!!!1111 03:45:50 sykopomp: You remind me of people who hate lisp because "it looks ugly". :) 03:46:03 I mainly need to interact with the Kalman-based AINS positioning system (just basic getX, getY, getHeading) and camera target detection. 03:46:07 right, but that's a large determiner if your API to the robot will be (move-left-motor x) or (ease-smoothly-towards-3d-target x) 03:46:09 etc 03:46:19 Zhivago: he said it was interpreted :-P 03:46:51 Well, if "it" refers to a language then he is confused or may have suffered a recent head injury. 03:47:16 and this is why #lisp has a bad rep 03:47:33 I doubt efficiency would be too much of an issue. 03:47:43 Yes. I imagine that the requirement to spell simple words properly is another large factor. 03:48:14 *Phoodus* sighs 03:48:58 Zhivago: are you really trying to reduce this into a spelling bee pissing contest? 03:48:59 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:49:19 sykopomp: I think you might profit from a remedial English comprehension class. 03:49:26 ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:49:35 Zhivago: I think you might profit from taking that stick out of your ass. 03:50:06 sykopomp: Well, at least you're keeping your thinking at a consistent level. 03:50:56 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-33.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:53 rouslan: You're also Greenspunning? 03:52:26 rouslan: My Greenspunned-lisp is only about 2k LOC. 03:54:38 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.22] has joined #lisp 03:54:44 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:14 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:55 Aren't siod or elk still running around? 03:57:07 quotemstr: I'm using TinyScheme which is a few thousand SLOC. 03:57:45 quotemstr: I know, it's kind of overkill...but I am looking forward to creating some advanced Lisp scripts for autonomous mode (with AI). 03:58:36 I didn't like TinyScheme because it didn't handle C++ exceptions very well. 03:58:48 Plus, I *already* have a GC scheme, and *already* pay for C++ RTTI. 03:58:54 I might as well use those facilities in a Lisp. 03:58:56 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:04 condition-case will catch C++ exceptions. 03:59:12 A cons is no different from any other GCed object. 03:59:37 See? 03:59:38 See #lisp? 03:59:42 I have a good reason for greenspunning. 03:59:45 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gsjdrruwyhmdktyk] has joined #lisp 04:00:43 Well I'm adding an error case in the eval kernel loop in case an incorrect operation is specified. 04:01:06 So GC will add considerable overhead? 04:01:15 You can't reasonably write Lisp without GC. 04:01:28 (People here, feel free to correct me.) 04:02:13 So TinyScheme is ok for my purpose? 04:02:23 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:31 evening 04:02:47 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:03:33 rouslan: Sure 04:10:46 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:10:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:23 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:11:47 -!- jeremy__1 [n=jeremy__@113.sub-75-250-154.myvzw.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:13:46 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 04:14:23 ruediger [n=the-rued@93-82-11-179.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 04:28:20 -!- hugod 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benny ryepup spiaggia G0SUB tsuru dmiles_afk stassats morphling Demosthenes ivan4th Jasko pjb ClaudiaS silenius knobo yvdriess billstclair Quadrescence 16:33:38 -!- names: myrkraverk ace4016 daniel stepnem Edico ivan_chernetsky DrunkTomato tfb qebab Stattrav simplechat levente_meszaros amaron _3b` timor Kolyan attila_lendvai cmm trebor_dki adeht ljames mvilleneuve alexsuraci snorble Adamant nha jsnell BrianRice OmniMancer freiksenet pavelludiq legumbre joast saikatc Helheim ironChicken cmeow_ skeptomai|away dto1 raison nalioth clog fmu housel holycow Draggor kencausey dto antifuchs werdan7 lpolzer_ araujo 16:33:38 -!- names: porcelina koning_robot dnm_ rahul Mezner-athome Yamazaki-kun svaksha mtd ceineke_ cmatei mathrick xristos Pepe_ wlr c|mell dstatyvka boyscared drewc Xof mrSpec rootzlevel hicx174 Borbus whoppix ski srcerer Taggnostr hohum dcrawford foom bfein fgtech nicktastic tarbo djm nuba borisc foom2 ennen dostoyev1ky jyujin Axioplase_ tomaw Legooolas Khisanth dejones johs fihi09 anekos lichtblau abeaumont fractalis cataska l_a_m dfox kiuma TJohn ud_ 16:33:38 -!- names: cods madnificent Aisling_ CrazyEddy blast_hardcheese Patzy spacebat yacin tensorpudding fda314925 lemoinem Ginei_Morioka slather Holcxjo fnordus wasabi ianmcorvidae mgr_ dmm_ gigamonkey cpt_nemo madsy Xantoz hdurer eldragon arbscht herbieB nyef jroes lnostdal Ri- thijso dalkvist tltstc slyrus_ alec trittweiler bdowning DrForr _3b__ gz ve PuffTheMagic dsop joga j0ni_ [df] Ralith pr nitor ramus Dodek Orest^bnc rbancroft rsynnott rlonstein 16:33:38 -!- names: setheus luis Adrinael kom_ aking pok_ guaqua mornfall yahooooo Tristam kloeri sykopomp cupe reb` djinni` prip Soulman__ delYsid addled frodef varjagg nasloc__ qed ASau p_l eno mikezor_ chillywi1ly tvaalen disturbance tychoish PissedNumlock Tordek Xach Fade Raptelan AntiSpamMeta easyE pragma_ erk tic sjbach sytse ``Erik jrockway clop guenthr bakkdoor codemonkeyx retupmoca vsync koollman z0d hoeq felipe Tabmow chii bobrown` alexbobp lukjad007 16:33:38 -!- names: guaq peddie @Zhivago rapacity rullie danderson weirdo _deepfire pkhuong zbigniew schme ineiros rotty lharc krappie scode 16:33:51 No, I didn't. I'll add that. I also found that somewhere some settings are adding something trying to log in elsewhere too. 16:35:30 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:43 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:08 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 16:40:36 lichtblau, on the left side you see how to query for failed perec tests after a certain timestamp http://omploader.org/vM2RudQ/perec.png 16:40:50 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 16:41:10 I quick patched dwim.hu, but you will still have problems with ff, and even with chrome need to reload the whole page once before being able to execute the query 16:41:19 long live to browser incompatibilities.... 16:42:01 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:17 ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.251.4] has joined #lisp 16:42:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.251.4] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:43:10 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:52 lichtblau, note all the green checkmarks are needed! 16:44:25 I got it to connect, looks like an auth issue perhaps 16:51:00 Kludgy [n=therealk@S01060018f85956c8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:07 -!- tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:51:26 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-146-224.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["Gone for a while. Back not later than Saturday."] 16:52:02 -!- beach` is now known as beach 16:52:25 Good evening! 16:57:56 hi beach 16:59:11 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:58 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:06:33 tfb_ [n=tfb@212.183.140.16] has joined #lisp 17:09:00 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-16-219.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:09:27 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.251.4] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:09:55 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 austinh [n=austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:51 brennanc [n=brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 17:15:14 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:16:19 fe[nl]ix: How are you doing these days? 17:17:19 quite well :) 17:17:34 Great! Thanks again for taking care of the house. 17:18:41 no problem :) 17:18:44 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 17:19:26 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 17:19:52 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:20:06 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:09 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-16-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:20:14 -!- brennanc [n=brennanc@cpe-76-166-156-65.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:24:43 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:24:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:22 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 17:28:18 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:39 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 17:30:30 tychoish [n=tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:47 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]"] 17:31:18 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-16-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:32:16 awesome, gnus is finally working. 17:32:32 *Xach* has started archiving comp.lang.lisp via leafnode and eternal-september 17:32:44 TDT: The Emacs news reader? 17:32:47 I added an (nntp-auth-file) part to the .gnus.el, that worked well 17:32:51 beach: yeah 17:34:32 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 17:34:50 Xach: Hmm, that's an interesting project, leafnode. THat was going to be my 2nd thing I wanted to do, figure out a way to view this stuff offline. 17:37:43 Xach: Caching stuff locally, do you find that of much benefit? I'm assuming there's a part of your day you're not connected to the net - or is this to cache the news articles forever? 17:38:26 TDT: for normal reading i pay 10 euros per year to news.individual.net. the leafnode stuff is for long-term archives. 17:43:57 -!- porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:00 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:16 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:45:21 yay Xach, keeper of the flame(s) 17:45:29 hoglahoo [n=chatzill@mail.westernfireprotection.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/94052 any ideas? a stumpwm convert friend of mine just emailed me this backtrace, and [df] said (in #stumpwm) that it's probably a CLX issue. 17:49:13 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:42 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:53:07 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.16] has quit [] 17:53:45 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit ["leaving"] 17:56:07 Adlai: what happens if you remove the type declaration for resource-id in LOOKUP-PIXMAP? 17:57:30 if _I_ do it? nothing, my friend didn't even tell me what program this is. just "have some backtrace"... 17:57:37 *Adlai* did tell him to get on IRC, though 17:58:45 Adlai: well, i'm not sure what the X11 spec says about resource-id's, but xlib seems to have them declared as 29bit integers.... which seems like an odd number for a C based program to use for integers.... 17:59:11 it looks suspiciously like 32bit SBCL's fixnum type :D 17:59:26 (before nyef widened them) 17:59:47 drewc: explicit nod to lisp 18:00:04 Xach: is it yeah? that would make sense :) 18:00:15 X11 was MIT, wasn't it> 18:00:16 ? 18:00:17 i'll dig up the reference in the old X11 book I have 18:00:19 yeah 18:00:30 drewc: X is highly lispy - fixnums, symbols etc. 18:00:37 ejs [n=eugen@109-167-52-226.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 18:01:00 splittist: fixnums ? 18:02:08 Adlai: so, if it is that case that resource id's are 29 bit integers, your friend's program has somehow ended up with on that is bigger. 18:04:33 drewc, apparently a physics simulation that outputs directly to opengl 18:06:06 "All IDs in X are 29 bits (the high order three bits must be zero) which eases their use in tagged language envi- ronments such as lisp and CLU, where a few bits may be used for basic type information." 18:06:11 well, it shouldn't be that hard to trace the appearance of this invalid resource id 18:06:27 well, that's interesting 18:06:39 (also 'atoms' and 'property lists') 18:07:01 Adlai: i'd say that some FFI code is not properly converting the 29 bit ints into lisp .. 18:07:09 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 Adlai: rather, it sounds like it's grabbing two extra bits 18:07:24 "I iz in ur xorg // truncatin ur fixnums" ? 18:07:41 That's from Gettys et al, The X Window System, Version 11 (10 Dec 1990) 18:07:46 1953260900 <---- 31 bits.. non? 18:07:58 splittist: that's the book i have. i think 2nd ed, though. 18:08:43 drewc: that's less than 2^31 by about 10% 18:09:23 (integer-length 1953260900) => 31 18:09:25 oh, you meant it takes 31 bits to represent that, thus is a broken 29-bit ID, nvm 18:09:25 drewc, this error is from stumpwm, which doesn't use FFI 18:09:47 Xach: I was looking at the DEC/SGG paper that appeared in SPE: www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/CRL-90-8.pdf 18:10:06 Xach: integer-length ftw!... i love this language. 18:10:09 maybe the brokenness is in whatever app issued the 31bit resource ID, and stumpwm crashed because of it. 18:10:50 drewc: my favorite new (generic) function is describe-object! 18:10:52 Adlai: sure... i'm sure X happily takes 31 bit ids and truncates them... in fact, i'll bet it only takes 32 bit ints :P 18:12:47 Xach: cool! 18:12:56 drewc, are you saying the bug is in the app or stumpwm? 18:13:09 could be in the X server 18:13:27 drewc: i was bummed some time ago about how describe doesn't work great if you don't make an instance just a bundle of slots, but compute some of the interesting info on the fly, or store it in some other external mapping. 18:13:33 Adlai: sounds like the app... it can't be that hard to trace the origin of that number 18:13:42 but now i will use describe-object to show useful informations! 18:14:32 Xach: i had no idea :). My biggest achievement lately was finally needing TREE-EQUAL 18:15:06 three's copy-tree too 18:15:12 snearch [n=olaf@g225052124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:15:12 s/ree/ere/ 18:15:13 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:15:25 shortsightedsid [i=5dba14bf@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbscqrewsigtzxus] has joined #lisp 18:15:34 (to write macroexpansion-equal, which is like a TREE-EQUAL that considers all unintered symbols to be EQUAL regardless of name) 18:15:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:15:42 also I was surprised to find copy-structure the other day 18:15:52 Adlai: i've used copy-tree many a time 18:16:02 never needed tree-equal though :) 18:16:24 so you used it with a :test ? 18:16:27 or, if i did, probably walked the tree myself 18:16:28 yea 18:16:28 *Adlai* looks up tree-equal 18:16:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:23 bots?! 18:17:27 *drewc* feexes 18:18:06 Xach: the Keene book makes frequent use of describe-object 18:18:22 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-50.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:50 -!- shortsightedsid [i=5dba14bf@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbscqrewsigtzxus] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 18:19:14 oh, drewc, could you make adeht a c-l.net account? (to co-administrate the new mailing lists) 18:19:15 adeht: I'm afraid I forgot about that useful lesson until now. 18:19:37 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:19:37 i will re-read my keene! 18:19:59 wasn't Keene still using describe? 18:20:16 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-11-233.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:21:28 adeht: send me your gpg key and full name to admin@common-lisp.net 18:21:43 Ok, so describe-object doesn't work for me, but describe does. wonder if I am missing something. 18:22:04 wgl: Really? Your methods on describe-object didn't get called? 18:22:06 wgl: i bet you are missing having read the documentation for describe-object 18:22:08 wgl, you call describe yourself, but customize its behavior by defining methods on describe-object 18:22:24 http://l1sp.org/cl/describe and http://l1sp.org/cl/describe-objects 18:22:30 stassats: hmm apparently you're right 18:22:33 er fingerslip. http://l1sp.org/cl/describe-object 18:22:43 drewc: will do 18:22:49 Adlai: maybe i should add "Did you mean...?" to l1sp.org 18:23:03 Xach, that could be great! 18:24:33 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:18 MORE DWIM? 18:25:25 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:39 MORE BOTS! 18:26:00 DeusExPikachu__ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-168-51.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 stassats: at first I checked a snippet I wrote from the locks example (I also noted there was a bug in that example) and I used describe-object.. but in the book describe is indeed used 18:26:30 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:26:36 xach: Did not supply my own; doc seems to imply that there are some supplied; doc also notes that 'describe-object' should not be called by the user. 18:26:52 Axius [n=ghi@92.84.9.15] has joined #lisp 18:27:00 wgl: What didn't work for you? 18:27:01 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:07 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:30 Pointed 'describe-object' at instance of a defclass; get traceback saying "Argument X is not a number: nil' 18:29:06 Describe on same object works, showing slots with :instance allocation. 18:29:24 using sbcl 1.0.30 18:29:37 wgl, describe-object isn't required to behave sanely when called by the user 18:29:54 wgl: DESCRIBE calls DESCRIBE-OBJECT much like PRINT calls PRINT-OBJECT, and the programmer use is similar. Have you ever written a PRINT-OBJECT method? 18:31:39 xach: yes. Looking at the doc that says "Each implementation is required to provide a _method_ ... and enough other _classes_ so as to ensure that there is always an applicable _method_." 18:33:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bmebloouicbnfrij] has joined #lisp 18:33:46 jsfb [n=jon@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 18:34:57 -!- hoglahoo is now known as Lee-away 18:35:22 -!- Lee-away [n=chatzill@mail.westernfireprotection.net] has left #lisp 18:36:16 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:36 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:38:25 -!- TJohn [i=as@114-36-233-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40:19 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:38 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:06 -!- DeusExPikachu_ [n=DeusExPi@pool-141-157-21-142.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:28 is there a way to set the reader to return uninterned symbols? (read "(a b c)") -> (#:A #:B #:C) 18:41:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-28-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:42:03 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 18:42:45 DeusExPikachu_ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-121-89.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:59 what for? 18:43:11 so user-entered stuff doesn't leak symbols 18:43:20 you're doing it wrong 18:43:27 doesn't READ user entered stuff? 18:43:33 this. 18:43:34 s/doesn't/don't/ 18:44:00 so write my own custom parser instead of using the nice configurable built-in lisp one? 18:44:36 snauts [n=snauts@mpe-43-133.mpe.lv] has joined #lisp 18:44:45 Or just stop caring about "leaking" symbols. 18:44:57 Phoodus: yes, if you care about 'leaking' symbols 18:45:06 minion: tell Phoodus about sacla 18:45:07 it's a long running server 18:45:07 Phoodus: direct your attention towards sacla: A partial (as of 2004) Common Lisp implementation written in Common Lisp by Yuji Minejima, under a BSD style license. http://www.cliki.net/sacla 18:45:14 there are bigger leaks to worry about when READing than interning symbols 18:45:20 Phoodus: you can read them into a specially created package 18:45:29 Phoodus: read them into a junk package then 18:45:33 tcr: that's a good idea 18:45:46 though an evil user could write (cl-user:a cl-user:b cl-user:c) 18:45:48 leaks! 18:45:49 what about qualified symbols? 18:45:59 Of course, it's all hacks, but perhaps it's Good Enuff 18:46:07 or better, cl::fooo, locks! 18:46:19 right, it's taking care of an issue at a time 18:46:24 i woulds just write a reader... might take all of 15 minutes. 18:46:34 (if all you need is symbols and conses) 18:46:42 there's one in swank now 18:46:45 need numbers and strings at least as well 18:46:57 also, there wil be progn's if permission allows it 18:47:05 ok, 20 minutes 18:47:13 Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-154.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:47:20 Phoodus: swank's simple read can integers, conses, symbols, strings 18:47:29 tcr: oh? a non-interning reader? where it is? 18:47:40 kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:02 it's not a "reader", just a humble basic-sexpr-parser 18:48:06 I'll look into it, thanks 18:48:14 it's simple-read in swank-rpc.lisp 18:48:21 what about pjb's reader? 18:48:25 could have used just a _bit_ more configurability on the normal lisp reader to really make it safe 18:48:33 stassats: that's GPL 18:48:37 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:40 climacs also has one. There are lots. The spec even sets out the reader algo. 18:48:40 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-186-152.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:48:59 *drewc* has used hacked version of Sacla's reader, and written his own 18:49:13 (albeit glossing over the package stuff) 18:49:25 i bet my cl-org-mode parser could trivially be extended to read lisp source 18:49:25 perhaps drewc&me will write another, extensible one in august 18:49:36 indeed 18:50:05 is august especially suited for writing readers? 18:50:26 seriously considering supporting quotes and array syntax, so still having reader macros would be nice 18:51:15 Phoodus: why would you need reader macros... if the user can extend the reader, it's not safe ;) 18:51:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-167-52-226.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:23 How to make sbcl to return unboxed single-floats? 18:51:23 the user can't extend the reader 18:51:26 but we would be able to :) 18:51:45 Phoodus: you're writing the reader, of course you can extend it. 18:51:47 snauts: you can't. 18:52:04 any other lisps that can? 18:52:19 -!- Sergio`_ is now known as Sergio` 18:52:28 -!- DeusExPikachu_ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-121-89.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:55 pkhuong: Really? I thought they were unboxed on amd64. 18:53:20 pkhuong: What does it mean to be immediate? 18:53:21 Xach: they're boxed, just not heap allocated. 18:53:23 drewc: it's a shame I have to write one, though. Another wheel reinventation 18:53:25 oh 18:53:55 Phoodus: you could, of course, use one of the several wheels already mentioned. 18:54:10 Phoodus: or, you could use one of the ... what Xach said 18:54:11 right, but I'd probably have to push those as well 18:54:12 snauts: why do you need that? 18:54:23 Phoodus: then again, if you don't like to program, you're in the wrong business 18:54:32 being able to have Lisp's included reader wit some options snipped out would be ideal 18:54:40 drewc: it's about productivity 18:54:53 Phoodus: in the time you've wasted here, you could have written a reader... 18:54:54 stassats: number crunching 18:55:00 snauts: did your profiling said it's a bottleneck? 18:55:06 Phoodus: so, what's that about productivity irc user? 18:55:10 s/said/say/ 18:55:13 stassats: yep 18:55:28 well I'm generally on here discussing business issues 18:55:45 Phoodus: i could have written two by now... get on it! :P 18:56:06 snauts: then don't return single floats. Move the function to a local (lexical) function, inline it, work on aggregates (and thus process/return specialised vectors). 18:57:16 gonzojive_ [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:18 pkhuong: thanks! 18:57:45 AL^3QRAB [n=H4cKeRzE@95.66.25.86] has joined #lisp 18:57:48 .Im  UsinG. .H4cKeRzE. 18:57:49 anyone have a suggestion for tracking down the culprit for an 'unmatched close parenthesis error? 18:57:50 -!- AL^3QRAB [n=H4cKeRzE@95.66.25.86] has left #lisp 18:58:12 -!- DeusExPikachu__ [n=DeusExPi@pool-151-196-168-51.balt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:14 gonzojive_: use emacs? 18:58:17 mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 gonzojive_: M-<, C-M-f until error 18:58:49 brilliant, thanks 18:59:04 froydnj: M-x check-parens 18:59:05 gonzojive_: then paredit and never fear again (: 18:59:27 tcr: useful, thanks! 19:01:27 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225052124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:02:18 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1215.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:06:13 fjellfras [n=abhijat@123.236.183.76] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 unicode [n=user@95.214.32.69] has joined #lisp 19:08:18 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:23 -!- fjellfras [n=abhijat@123.236.183.76] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09:10 -!- Axius [n=ghi@92.84.9.15] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:09:25 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@81.2.103.24] has quit [] 19:10:11 splittist: fumbling with paredit can be messy 19:10:44 luis: I have had very good success. What messy parts do you find?] 19:10:52 particularly when you don't notice that you've slurped some big sexp. 19:11:02 -!- snauts [n=snauts@mpe-43-133.mpe.lv] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:11:09 wgl: oh yeah, I love it and use it every day. 19:11:10 drewc: email sent 19:11:55 luis: true - there is that 'with great power comes great responsibility' thing. But unlimited undo can be a lovely thing... 19:13:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:16:39 does Sacla's clos.lisp properly implement generic functions as funcallable instances? It doesn't look that way, although the code seems to claim that. 19:17:30 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:54 the code in question is http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/html/lisp/clos.lisp.html 19:19:59 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:59 Adlai: looks like it to me. 19:22:04 what do you see is missing? 19:22:19 the generic function objects aren't FUNCALLable 19:22:31 they're just structs 19:23:06 Adlai: How does SACLA define funcall? 19:23:27 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.210.118] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:23:29 Adlai: how do you know structs are not funcallable? 19:24:32 this is a valid point, although it seemed to me as though sacla's purpose is to be a layer that could be loaded onto an existing CL's primitive functions and operators. 19:24:36 Adlai: i think you are confusing implementation and interface... which is easy in something like sacla 19:24:41 Adlai: no 19:24:42 (it doesn't implement funcall yet) 19:24:47 sacla is a cl in cl 19:24:56 so it's an interpreter? 19:25:04 -!- yvdriess [n=Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:25:39 i'm not sure if it's even executable... that's not the point 19:26:18 it looks to me like the point is to define portable versions of "higher-level" bits of CL, not an entire "cl in cl" 19:26:35 the description contradicts that 19:27:12 does it now? we must have drastically different interpretations 19:27:16 "A partical Common Lisp implementation written in Common Lisp." 19:27:21 *Adlai* shuts up now 19:27:24 looks like "a cl in cl" to me 19:27:41 well, assumin partical means partial 19:27:43 *stassats* wonders where is the typo in "partical" 19:27:52 oh, the "that" was referring to my interpretation, not to "cl in cl" 19:28:08 ok 19:28:20 that makes sense then :) 19:28:43 that said, the typo could be interpreted as 'pratical' 19:28:46 A fully working, nicely written cl-in-cl interpreter would be tremendously cool 19:28:59 drewc: almost there, try again! 19:29:12 tcr: (defun interpret (form) (eval form)) :P 19:29:22 tcr, have you seen Henry Baker's paper about the special forms? 19:29:29 mathrick: doh! 19:29:43 *drewc* bets he has! 19:29:48 drewc: I don't think that'd work, EVAL has null environment 19:29:50 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 19:30:09 mathrick: so? 19:30:32 mathrick: so? 19:30:46 more plumbing is needed to make blow-by-blow evaluation correct 19:30:59 Adlai: i think every lisper has read most of what Baker wrote :) 19:31:07 mathrick: like what, exactly? 19:31:14 well I haven't (yet), but it's past my point 19:31:29 well, tjhat 19:31:31 drewc: good question, we don't have global lexicals 19:31:33 that's surprising 19:31:38 I guess I'm confusing myself 19:31:47 mathrick: i know, and you probably are. 19:31:50 drewc, time to switch to dvorak 19:31:56 too many qwerty typos! 19:32:10 Adlai: does it move the quote away from enter? 19:32:16 who's Baker? 19:32:22 drewc, yeah, but it puts - next to it 19:32:38 that's no good either 19:32:43 better for IRC though 19:32:46 Adlai: funny, ' is right next to enter here 19:33:01 mathrick: context man... read the context. 19:33:10 in normal dvorak, #\' is on the qwerty Q 19:33:17 oh 19:33:48 but dvorak sucks 19:34:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:52 Yamazaki1kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 19:35:53 drewc, speaking of that paper -- is it just me, or is the last example where he has (:include function) a bit wishful ? 19:36:19 Adlai: it's been years, hold on and let me skim it 19:36:24 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-231-176.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:36:55 -!- Yamazaki-kun [n=bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 19:37:13 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:37:42 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-91001.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:11 he goes on and on about how it's all portable CL, and then _that_. 19:38:25 what about it? 19:39:03 (defstruct (function-closure (:include function)) ..) is not portable. at all. 19:39:13 milanj [n=milan@93.86.189.17] has joined #lisp 19:39:56 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.32.69] has left #lisp 19:40:02 are you assuming function is cl:function? he defines it the line before! 19:40:22 he doesn't define it, he says it's provided by the implementation.... 19:40:26 oh, 'this struct is' 19:40:28 right 19:41:48 it seems to me like it's just wishing for mop:funcallable-standard-class ... 19:41:49 Adlai: well, change it to use funcallable instances 19:41:56 right 19:42:03 Adlai: not wishing for, he explains that it's required beforehand 19:42:27 "such customization could be used within the "PCL" implementation of CLOS to make this implementation both efficient and portable." 19:42:31 oh.. no not quite 19:42:43 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:54 classic PCL's fin.lisp hacks funcallable instances into a dozen different lisp's representations of lexical closures 19:43:11 it's amusingly nonportable code 19:43:50 how do you know? it's possible that it was portable in '92! 19:44:02 (portable : "Can be ported") 19:44:27 #+MC68000 '(#x2A6D #x11 #x246D #x1 #x4EEA #x5) 19:44:34 haha 19:44:34 I guess the read conditionals make it portable 19:45:20 my favorite port in that file is the one to genera, where instead of fussing around, they just use genera's native funcallable instances :) 19:45:52 Adlai: i would assume that early PCL's would have required some non-portable operation to get funcallables.. i'll bet there is prior art :) 19:46:20 *drewc* should read the PCL code again now that he has more of a clue 19:46:31 s/more of// 19:46:47 (debatable) 19:46:48 yeah, I'm just grumpy because I read that paper and my hopes were dashed when I got to the last example 19:47:07 hopes of the purely portable PCL he talks about in the beginning 19:47:13 Adlai: portable, to you, means ANSI. 19:47:28 well, right. "portable" does, as you said, mean "can be ported" 19:47:38 yes 19:48:15 so his portable PCL is not a myth... i believe it's used in ACL, LW, CCL, SBCL, CMUCL and clisp, among others :P 19:48:25 enable sophisticated systems like "Portable Common Loops" to become truly portable does suggest ANSI CL portable, though. 19:48:31 in 92? 19:48:39 er, CLtL2 portable. 19:48:54 in 92? 19:48:57 :P 19:49:28 92 would put us nicely into post-cltl2 pre-ansi lisps :) 19:49:49 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-117-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:03 post cold war 19:50:07 still. disregarding squabbles over "portability", that paper has pretty cool (and buggy but fixable) ideas about the other special forms 19:50:14 which is really mean, lots of CLtL1 lisps, some cltl2 like lisps, and some that look a little ansi-ish :) 19:50:34 and one that looks a little elispish 19:50:49 ah yesh... can't forget that :) 19:51:14 Adlai: i'm interested to see what comes out of mark tarver's KLAMBDA effort 19:51:18 those were the days 19:51:20 and five bazillion that look a little C/C++/FORTRANish 19:51:55 minion, what does klambda stand for? 19:51:55 Knickpoint Labiate Acneform Mimsey Blamably Doftberry Auscultate 19:52:34 *Adlai* finds http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/klambda.htm 19:52:47 Tarver is back? 19:53:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:46 stassats: indeed, apparently he came down from the mountains of india just to do KLAMBDA 19:54:36 A CL on KLAMBDA will be my hobby project i think. 19:54:59 (with KLAMBDA running on CL, of course) 19:55:32 where do turtles come in? 19:55:55 astalla [n=astalla@93-36-227-56.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:56:02 funcallable instances, of course 19:56:21 or maybe catch tags. turtles love playing catch. 19:58:03 pkhuong: boo, %unary-round is broken 19:59:55 hey, looks like mark tarver went to find himself and found open source instead 20:00:26 Adlai: crazy things happen in those mountains! 20:00:29 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-25-88-89.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:01:08 he killed Stallman 20:01:10 -!- Edward__ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-154.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:34 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:11 stassats, what do you mean? he talks about moving to the "open source/GPL lobby", which suggests that stallman will be a happy camper with the kernel's new clothes 20:02:49 Adlai: that was an allusion to "If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha" 20:03:35 froydnj: how? 20:03:47 stassats: heh, i got it :) 20:04:26 pkhuong: (defun f (zone) 20:04:26 (multiple-value-bind (h m) (truncate (abs zone) 1.0) 20:04:28 (round (* 60.0 m)))) 20:04:33 dies, apparently 20:04:45 froydnj: latest commit? 20:04:54 with what value of zone? 20:05:02 I'm so zen that I don't get zen jokes. 20:05:40 I must say I don't get this passage: "Finally, a metacircular definition for Common Lisp special forms enables us to transparently customize the representation of certain "built-in" mechanisms such as function closures, to enable sophisticated systems like "Portable Common Loops" to become truly portable." 20:05:41 pkhuong: mmm, HEAD-1 was the derive-type optimizer for %UNARY-ROUND 20:05:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:05:51 what kind of "customisation" does he speak of? 20:06:03 mathrick, funcallable instances 20:06:37 yeah, but I don't see how that follows 20:06:52 does he mean overriding the implementation's definitions? 20:06:56 hey, what excellent news just as I was thinking about releasing 20:07:18 *Krystof* postpones 20:08:26 it's good to have some pre-release post-freeze excitement every once in a while 20:08:57 I'll look at this in 10-15 20:09:21 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:10:00 balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 20:11:51 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:44 hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 -!- j0ni_ [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has left #lisp 20:15:54 -!- hjpark [n=user@116.40.135.21] has left #lisp 20:20:02 why is it possible to define a macro with (a (&rest rest) b) as the argument list but not a function? 20:21:12 I mean, since a macro is just a compile-time function, the same rules should apply, or am I missing something? (I obviously am which is why I'm asking :P) 20:21:56 a macro is a compile-time function, but it gets passed the whole form to expand 20:22:03 RaceCondition, macro functions are already necessarily destructuring their arguments, so it makes sense to allow further destructuring. 20:22:45 oh, I see, I thought that syntax meant something else, sorry 20:23:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:23:06 unicode [n=user@95.214.62.23] has joined #lisp 20:23:07 I thought it means that the first and the last argument are required and anything in between is put to &rest 20:23:30 but it's about destructuring... 20:23:46 right, macros are syntactic, so you can syntactically break down their arguments 20:23:48 mathrick: does it matter? The point is that it's possible to define some CL operations in terms of some others. 20:24:01 you can (defun foo (args) (destructuring-bind ((a b) c) args ...)) 20:24:11 mathrick: portably. How you use those definitions is not all that relevant to the points in the paper. 20:26:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:28:38 folks who use w3m for hyperspec lookups: how do I get it to either use the alternate text for images, or display the actual images themselves? right now it's just displaying a #\[ for each image. 20:29:13 Adlai: to get images in w3m-emacs, `T' 20:29:23 (setq w3m-use-cookies t w3m-default-display-inline-images t w3m-use-favicon t w3m-resize-images nil) ; because it's slow 20:29:23 20:29:35 is what i have 20:29:51 oh, I'll try using w3m-emacs instead 20:29:56 *Adlai* was using w3m in an emacs term 20:30:08 emacs-w3m 20:30:22 yeah 20:30:25 Guthur [n=Michael@host86-138-192-108.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:06 hmm, I got Arch's emacs-w3m package, but (require 'w3m) doesn't find it :( 20:31:22 (require 'w3m-load) 20:31:27 froydnj: exclusive bounds. 20:31:36 Debugger entered--Lisp error: (file-error "Cannot open load file" "w3m-load") 20:31:37 ... 20:31:44 I guess the easy way is to widen exclusive bounds to be inclusive? 20:31:55 Adlai: maybe it's not in the load-path 20:32:15 looks like it isn't -- all the files are in /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/w3m/ 20:33:05 pkhuong: sorry, where are the exclusive bounds? 20:33:25 after numeric-type->interval 20:34:19 because of 0.0's specialness (being = to -0.0), the (single-float 0.0 (1.0)) is converted to (or (member 0.0) (single-float (0.0) (1.0))) 20:34:56 heh, looks like the packaged version doesn't support Emacs 23... I need to get the dev version. 20:35:05 (packaged too, just separately) 20:36:54 hm. 20:39:42 why doesn't the same thing bite us for, say %unary-{,f}truncate? or are we just more careful with exclusive bounds there? 20:40:45 I think we do interval-div 20:41:00 or something 20:42:02 no, I don't know 20:43:14 kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:45 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.62.23] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:54 so how does (defmacro (a (&rest rest) b) ...) differ from (defmacro (a rest b) ...)? 20:44:01 unicode-afk [n=user@95.214.62.23] has joined #lisp 20:44:17 RaceCondition: try (ze-macro 1 2 3) 20:44:29 ooh, OK, I see 20:44:44 froydnj: It's a side effect of a bug in the real type derivation. 20:44:46 the first version requires a list whereas the second one doesn't 20:44:53 adeht: right? 20:44:58 yes 20:45:54 froydnj: erh, no. The call to %unary-round is in the interval deriver. 20:46:17 ogait [i=filipe@d01-0124a.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #lisp 20:46:22 I assume all the foo-derive-type-bar-aux handle intervals right. 20:48:38 ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-151-109.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:38 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-105.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:49:01 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:47 ramus [n=ramus@99.23.141.151] has joined #lisp 20:51:01 lpolzer_, paktahn seems to have difficulty forgetting that I have uninstalled certain packages 20:51:51 I installed community/emacs-w3m-cvs, and removed it, and then ran 'pak w3m' and it showed it as still installed. 20:52:29 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:53:46 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:34 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:35 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 20:56:37 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.130] has joined #lisp 20:56:58 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@166.205.139.130] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:07 spoofy [n=spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 20:57:11 -!- ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-151-109.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:57:32 stassats, adeht, I now get that w3m-update-toolbars isn't a defined function 20:58:32 looks like maybe the dev package is broken 20:58:47 "# Failed test '... the generated excel file was correct'" <--- umm 20:58:52 sorry, wrong chan 20:59:09 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:06 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 restarting emacs did the trick. so much for lisp. 21:02:19 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:38 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:16 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:03:47 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:06:26 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 21:07:18 -!- splittist [i=bc3ef51e@gateway/web/freenode/x-nelntsdinqcraetc] has quit ["Page closed"] 21:08:38 stassats, why do you enable cookies? 21:09:43 Does will eval-when :execute evaluate a form when a Lisp image is reloaded? i.e An iamge created from a save-lisp-and-die? 21:10:01 balooga: absolutely not! 21:10:07 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:10:09 Xach: damn 21:10:19 balooga: why would you want it to? 21:10:30 (otherwise asked as "What is it you really want to do?") 21:10:33 well, it's a nice thing to want. 21:10:39 but eval-when is totally not the mechanism. 21:10:50 balooga: eval-when is about form evaluation 21:10:59 what you want is a function that is evaluated at lisp image startup 21:11:03 drewc: I need to add the directory containing my dll''s to *foreign-library-directories* at runtime. 21:11:04 Xach: right... custom toplevel passed to same lisp and die 21:11:39 balooga: you might want to use *init-hooks* 21:11:42 slfsantafe [n=steve@216.223.227.59] has joined #lisp 21:11:43 also, is there a way to make quitting w3m not close the window? 21:12:08 save lisp and die* 21:12:19 balooga: where are you getting that value from? 21:12:43 balooga: you _must_ have a 'startup-my-app' or a "main-function" somewhere, ya? 21:12:56 crod [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:01 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:13:21 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 21:14:14 drawc: All that function does at the moment is to make sure that the foreign libs are loaded. The path to the dll's are set at load/compile time. That is done be setting a *dll-path* var in a file that sits in the /bin directory. 21:15:40 balooga: so, you can't change the location of your libraries after compiling your application? 21:16:13 drewc: Well, not right now. 21:16:23 balooga: but you'd like to, right? 21:16:32 drawc: Yes :) 21:16:48 so, where is that data going to come from? 21:17:03 is there a configuration file, will they pass it on the command line... both? 21:17:33 will users be compiling the application as well, so a more general configuration mechanism might be in order? 21:17:41 drewc: I really don't want to force a user to have to edit a config file..... 21:18:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:22 balooga: ok, so write an advanced AI that can predict in advance, at compile time, the location of libraries installed on every possible user's computer... 21:18:34 drewc: No. User does not compile. It would be installed using innosetup or similar on Windows. A script on Linux. 21:18:50 or search the entire disk at startup and hope you get the correct version... 21:19:47 drewc: I was thinking of something a little easier. Like the executable is installed in ./ and libraries in bin/ 21:20:21 balooga: so you are going to install your own versions of the libraries you use? 21:20:24 what is ./ ? 21:20:35 (to lisp?) 21:21:00 drewc: Then at runtime just add the bin/ path to *foreign-library-directories*. 21:21:51 -!- slfsantafe [n=steve@216.223.227.59] has left #lisp 21:22:00 drewc: ./ is whatever path the archive is unzipped to. Yes, executable/libs/assets are all bundled up into the archive. 21:22:12 balooga: sounds like a nice _default_ ... and LD_LIBRARY_PATH is probably a good place to look. 21:22:33 balooga: how does your software know where ./ is? 21:23:10 ./ would be the directory where the executable is run. So the exe needs to determine its directory 21:23:14 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:23:16 balooga: (and btw, not making this configurable at run time is a poor design choice... do you hate your users?) 21:23:27 what if i want to put the exe in /usr/bin ? 21:23:47 and what do you mean 'the directory where the executable is run'? 21:24:15 cd / && /home/foo/bar/baz/my-executable <-- the executable is run in / 21:25:00 what if i want to include your software as part of a linux distro that requires LSB compliance.. 21:25:04 drewc: hate is such a strong word :) 21:25:29 drewc: all very good questions that I am now having to think about. 21:25:56 balooga: i've had to solve this exact problem a number of times before 21:26:13 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:16 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:05 balooga: why don't you rely on ld.so to find the libs properly? 21:27:20 drewc: From a win32 perspective, where the installation method is from a windows installer, the user should never have to edit a config file to specify the location of the dlls. The .exe should just know where these have been installed (1) either relative to itself, or (2) somewhere in the default dll search path. 21:27:22 balooga: if you think you are somehow making your user's lives easier but not having a configurable system, you're barking up the wrong tree :) 21:28:12 balooga: have you ever heard of 'default values' ? 21:29:16 timor1 [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 balooga: you want to store the locations in the source code where they can never be changed... i'm suggesting that maybe you put them in a configuration file where they can, if they need be. 21:29:28 drewc: But meaning what in this context? Just install the .dll's into /system32 and be done with it? 21:29:59 balooga: no, you keep going on about users editing your configuration file 21:30:01 that's missing the point 21:30:39 users...always causing problems 21:30:42 even if your configuration file is created by the installer, it's 100% better than compiling that data. 21:30:49 drewc: So the installer writes the config file at installation time, because it knows where it has placed the libraries? 21:30:52 data into the image 21:31:06 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:31:16 balooga: why the question mark... you're the one writing the installer..... does it know or not? :P 21:31:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:25 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 21:31:59 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:05 drewc: I'm asking if that is what you mean by having a configuration file specify the locations of the dlls. 21:32:24 it doesn't matter if the installer knows about them at all... 21:32:33 you are suggesting you compile in a default of ./ 21:32:43 i'm suggesting you put that in a configuration file 21:33:02 if you want to use the installed to put an absolute path in there, go for it. 21:33:17 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 21:33:19 it doesn't matter how the values get in there, 21:33:27 it just matters that the program gets them from there. 21:33:48 hell, it could be an empty file that ships 21:33:52 -!- nitor [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:54 drewc: How does the executable know the location of the config fiel to load? 21:35:00 balooga: in the case of unix, it's in /etc/my-project/config.cfg or .my-project/ . In windows, i don't know where you put these things. 21:35:12 also, that is configurable... of course 21:35:14 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:27 by passing in --config-file-location when running the program 21:35:48 also, --library-location should be configurable without a config file 21:35:56 drewc: In windows, it will have to be in the same location as the executable. So then hopefully with-open-file will load "config.blah" from the current directory. 21:36:01 _really_ nice for testing 21:36:19 'hopefully'? 21:36:32 that's not the best way to write programs.... 21:36:50 why does it _have_ to be there balooga? 21:37:39 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:34 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 21:39:03 malsyned [n=malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:22 How do I make declarations about variables that are implicitly declared by the loop macro? 21:39:32 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-109-94.wbs.co.za] has quit ["sleeping"] 21:39:37 i wonder if i can convince that organisation to let me release that configuration code i did... it worked quite well 21:39:55 malsyned: why would you want to, for one! 21:40:10 clhs locally 21:40:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm 21:40:11 drewc, I'm playing with speeding up lisp code. just for funsies. 21:40:12 clhs the 21:40:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm 21:40:28 malsyned: and you figure that throwing declarations at loop variables is going to do it? 21:40:56 drewc, I don't know one way or the other. I'm just trying different things. 21:40:57 there's also (loop for i fixnum below 100 ..) 21:41:04 malsyned: did you profile the code and discover that not knowing the type of those variables is in fact what's slowing things down? 21:41:13 Adlai: ! 21:41:23 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-68.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 21:41:26 drewc, no, of course not. that would be far too logical. 21:41:46 drewc: do you want to see my final solution for the question i asked yesterday? 21:42:23 drewc, I started with the code here: http://blog.postabon.com/make-lisp-15x-faster-than-python-or-4x-faster 21:42:25 Shamiq: yes, paste it please... i suspect you left out some information when you desribed the problem 21:42:43 drewc: do you remember if i posted if0? 21:42:56 Shamiq: no, you did not allow any conditionals 21:42:59 and am trying to see how much closer to a C version of the solution I can bring it. 21:43:05 drewc, with-clause::= with var1 [type-spec] [= form1] {and var2 [type-spec] [= form2]}* 21:43:05 Shamiq: it's _trivial_ with a conditional 21:43:11 drewc: son of a gun. yea, it is. 21:43:23 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:43:26 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:43:36 malsyned: "Some profiling suggested my program was spending a fair amount of time in a 'distance' function" 21:43:47 malsyned: if you have not profiled, you're doing it wrong 21:44:08 malsyned: and remeber, at some setting declarations will slow things down... 21:44:20 well he's using safety 0 21:44:54 malsyned: or "declarations are a last resort, your algo probably sucks" 21:44:58 which is rather mind-boggling on its own because while it gives you the safety of C, it'll not give you the speed of it automagically... 21:45:11 xffff [n=fffff@88.130.203.143] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 drewc, I didn't write the article, I'm just playing with their code. And yes, in a production environment, profile first, then tune. But I'm just playing around with different things. 21:45:22 drewc: http://pastebin.ca/1769875 21:45:35 yea, it is trivial with a conditional 21:45:54 clhs 6.1.1.7 21:45:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aag.htm 21:45:56 tcr: the thing is, people who actually know how to write performant lisp code have written works on it, but people still gravitate to the 'add a declaration and get C Speed!' type articles 21:45:57 always profile, and SBCL's profiler is pretty neat 21:46:15 drewc, that link shows some loop type specifiers... 21:46:24 tcr: you can lead a horse to water... 21:46:43 drewc: The scenario is... user downloads and runs installer. Installer prompts for the location to install. Then drops an icon on the desktop (optionally), and creates an entry in start->Programs. User double-clicks icon and the application runs. 21:47:00 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:47:50 drewc: the code as seen in the compiler-note shows a special variable :-) 21:47:55 drewc: The executable has to load in several .dlls at runtime. It needs to be told, or it needs to know the location of these dlls. 21:48:20 bobrown`: no kidding.. really? and here i thought we've been talking about making pizza. 21:48:44 tcr: :D 21:49:11 sorry bobrown that was for balooga 21:49:33 drewc: :) 21:49:42 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:15 balooga:i've delivered apps that do this, i've tried to tell you the best way i've learned to make it robust... you are not listening it seems, so i am not offering any more advice ;) 21:51:43 *drewc* notes that he's been brought in as a consultant specifically to create a configuration system that handles both compile and run time configuration of foreign library locations ... other people have paid significant sums of money to get the advise i just gave for free 21:51:55 advice* 21:52:11 ahh....where's the chat log? 21:52:21 minion: logs? 21:52:21 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 21:52:32 tyty 21:52:50 -!- timor1 [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:53:01 drewc: I get it, thanks. 21:53:33 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:55:20 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:21 drewc: I'm wrestling with how to add this to lispbuilder-sdl so that loading the dll's at runtime is generic for lispworks/sbcl/ccl/clisp across win32/linux/os x. And not have to have a ton on stuff in a wiki explaining how to create executables. 21:55:22 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:25 balooga: simple fact: your software does have to know where to find _something_, be it the libraries, or the config file. If your software ever has to find another thing... is it better to have code that finds libraries, or a configuration file? 21:55:59 balooga: hint: it doesn't belong in lispbuilder-sdl 21:56:16 drewc: That's what I was afraid of :( 21:57:52 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:58:07 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-117-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:08 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:47 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:58:55 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7557d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:23 drewc: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/StandAloneExecutables is already compicated enough. 21:59:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:00:05 balooga: lol... if you think that's complicated. you're in the wrong profession! 22:01:05 drewc: I think he meant from an end user perspective 22:01:15 konr [n=user@187.88.59.104] has joined #lisp 22:01:22 Though it doesn't actually seem that bad 22:01:58 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-204-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:08 Guthur: why would end users be compiling executables? you guys have weird ideas about software! :) 22:02:12 drewc: Right. Pointing a newbie to a wiki that requires lots of customization to a script in order to create an executable is not good. 22:02:31 drewc: Its a dev lib 22:02:41 of course end users will be compiling stuff 22:02:48 oh fuck me... your end users are developers... 22:03:03 and you are worried about that page being complex? 22:03:09 developers should be able to handle a bit of complexity 22:03:16 *drewc* gives up 22:03:28 you guys like to make things hard on yourselves! 22:03:33 although "a little complexity is a dangerous thing", or something along those lines 22:03:50 mathrick: does it matter? The point is that it's possible to define some CL operations in terms of some others. <-- I'm not saying it matters, but that I don't understand what that sentence means exactly 22:03:53 drewc: non-lisp developers that have heard that Lisp can be used to create games, and the first thing they want to know if they can creat executables. 22:04:03 "the first thing we do, let's kill all the developers" 22:04:26 balooga: are you catering to people who don't use lisp, or people who do? 22:04:38 balooga: for whom do you think a lisp library is more useful? 22:05:25 booh51464 [i=PDuKr1Rr@2001:470:1f11:3ec:7c0d:1b53:acb3:ea6b] has joined #lisp 22:05:58 balooga: if you spend all your time trying to solve non-problems, you'll never actually solve any problems ;) 22:06:05 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:06:15 mathrick: if you have APPLY, you can implement funcall 22:06:24 sure 22:06:26 drewc: I think creating installers for a lisp applications trips up even lispers. 22:06:32 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:52 balooga: i dunno, i've heard it's pretty easy. step1 : buy lispworks 22:06:58 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:07:13 heh 22:07:54 mathrick: so baker's paper is just about that... if you have DEFSTRUCT you can do implement FUNCTION 22:08:01 etc 22:08:02 balooga: truth be told, try to build a python .exe using opengl successfully, and come back to share your experiences with ease of use 22:08:04 drewc: That I have done. But most want to use ccl or sbcl. 22:08:11 balooga: why? 22:08:23 installers are complex, and most open source projects don't really care about installers 22:08:29 balooga: wait.. i'm confused... 22:08:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:08:40 i thought this was a library for lisp developers to use. 22:08:50 why would it need an installer? 22:08:52 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:34 drewc, the idea is to make it easier for lisp game devs to create one-click installable games 22:09:53 oh, we're writing an installer... that's the project? 22:10:11 drewc: It is like cl-sdl. Once you create your game, you are going to want to create an installer to distribute it. I would *like* that most of the cruft for creating the installation can be paved over by lispbuilder-sdl itself. 22:10:22 hello 22:11:54 drewc, I think the idea is to make it easy to create games that inspire blog posts like this one: http://xach.livejournal.com/234968.html 22:12:34 ok, this is all starting to make sense, i suppose. 22:12:46 Adlai: Right. Boom! Everything works. 22:12:47 i see a few different projects... 22:13:05 TR2N` [i=email@89.180.166.91] has joined #lisp 22:13:28 trivial-executable or something to paper and lowest-common-denominate image creation 22:13:48 configuration-manager, which handles any run time configurations 22:14:04 Of course, if the dev has SBCL 32-bit on his dev machine, and the player installs on his 64-bit machine then everything breaks.... but that is another topic. 22:14:12 and meta-installer, the creates .pkg on linux, windows installers on windows, and .dmg's for max 22:14:30 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:14:31 balooga: is that not true of any software? 22:14:37 heh 22:14:55 balooga: do you really assume all your users are ignorant boobs who have never programmed before?! 22:15:26 (they could be, and you might... just wondering what problems you are trying to solve) 22:16:18 -!- TR2N [n=email@89-180-144-108.net.novis.pt] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:16:20 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 22:16:25 drewc: I would like to lower the bar as much as is possible. I don't think that is a terrible thing. 22:16:27 (yes, i called 'macintoshes' 'max' up there ... don't ask me?!) 22:16:43 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:45 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.7.191] has joined #lisp 22:16:51 balooga: yeah, but worrying about a developer installing a 32bit binary on his 64 bit system? 22:17:03 are you sure you want those devs as users? 22:17:12 you will have to support them you know 22:17:17 drewc: That's why that is another topic entirely. 22:17:41 if you lower the bar too far, you'll get only those who can reach a better bar 22:17:52 can't* 22:18:46 drewc: I like to think more along the lines of baby steps when it comes to Lisp. 22:19:22 -!- Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-68.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has left #lisp 22:19:30 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-16-94.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:32 i, for example, stay away from things designed for beginners (like BASIC), non-programmers (like COBOL), average programmers (hello Java) and people who hate parenthesis and LAMBDA (python?). 22:19:52 drewc: Which is why the dev environment is installed using Edi's starter-pack in windows... instead of having a curious newbie install emacs, setup slime etc. etc. 22:20:15 so, this is one of those 'make lisp better for newbies' things... ok, i get it. 22:21:09 drewc: I think everyone benefits in the end. 22:21:45 balooga: i know. 22:22:18 this is the "trickle-up" threory of software development... 22:22:52 right... because everybody is a newbie forever, so lets focus on them... the experts will be newbies soon enough. 22:23:05 :D 22:23:37 or is this the 'lisp needs to be popular in order to be useful' argument.. 22:23:51 come on, drewc 22:24:00 *drewc* is just being obtuse and abrasive ... please don't take him seriously. 22:24:02 drewc, I think it's more the "even when you're experienced, it's a drag to have to follow a complex procedure to produce easy instalers" 22:24:48 right, just because you can, and the newbie can't figure it out, doesn't mean that it's the best way to do things 22:24:58 Adlai: question: is it accidental or essential complexity? 22:24:59 And complex procedures meanbugs that are complex and hard to debug. 22:25:05 or that tools/abstractions should be made that make things easier for the expert, which also happen to enable the newbies as well 22:25:15 *drewc* looks around for non-complex cross-platform executable building and installing software... 22:25:27 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-89-223-144-6.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:26:17 java ;p 22:26:18 drewc: The point is that the installer software is complex. But using the software to create installs is not. 22:26:35 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:26:42 balooga: that's where i don't believe you... 22:26:45 and that's still useful even if it covers only 80% or so of installer cases 22:27:06 xristos: really? what if i don't have a jvm installed? 22:27:17 drewc, I shouldn't answer that because I'm not trying to solve the problem. 22:27:32 Adlai: yeah, it was rhetoric anyway 22:27:37 ok 22:27:44 drewc: I can create a windows install for an example for lispbuilder-sdl using InnoSetup in just a few clicks. 22:27:49 drewc: it's usually 2 clicks to install that too 22:27:58 as for non-complex cross-platform executable building -- java? 22:28:05 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.64.233] has joined #lisp 22:28:16 balooga: cool... let me try it on my linux box? 22:28:40 the the executable.. the installer.. 22:28:43 not the* 22:29:07 if i require a user install SBCL before using my package, then the installation into SBCL is pretty damn simple. 22:30:29 xristos: I just installed SBCL with 0 clicks! :D 22:30:59 *drewc* is just being obtuse and arguing for arguments sake... sorry all, i'll stop now 22:31:18 drewc, what keyboard are you using? I want one like that! 22:31:21 yeah, i've been noticing that places like #lisp tend to be reverse troll environments 22:31:50 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:31:51 where instead of outsiders trolling the experts who are trying to have intelligent conversations, the experts troll the newbies who are trying to learn :-P 22:31:54 Adlai: keyboard? voice recognition! 22:32:07 Phoodus: socratic trolling 22:32:14 drewc, that could work badly with a parrot 22:32:17 er I mean ferret :P 22:32:23 drewc: Why is sbcl so easy to install? Shouldn't it be a complicated process to put the bar higher for newbies? 22:33:27 drewc: isn't all trolling socratic in a sense? 22:33:33 that's hardly a defense 22:33:36 balooga: if you say so, sure... because i know a lot of smart hackers are spending a lot of time on the sbcl installer rather than hacking useful code into sbcl 22:34:03 balooga, I'm not sure that SBCL is as magically installable on windows 22:34:33 the SBCL install script seems to rely on *nix idioms 22:34:37 drewc: I'm just turning your previous comment around, about me trying to make lispbuilder-sdl executables just as easy to install. 22:34:48 balooga: no foolin? 22:34:56 balooga: i didn't get that! :P 22:35:39 balooga: so you are arguing a point of view you don't agree with in order to get a reaction from me.... and i'm the troll? 22:35:46 -!- unicode-afk [n=user@95.214.62.23] has quit [Client Quit] 22:36:00 unicode [n=user@95.214.62.23] has joined #lisp 22:36:02 *drewc* thinks this is all quite funny 22:36:08 drewc: ? No man. 22:38:20 I didn't come here to argue. 22:38:41 balooga: on windows, you just put the dll's together with executable, unless you're going for more advanced setup (like SxS etc.). On linux, just rely on the defaults + LD_LIBRARY_PATH 22:38:43 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:45 ...damned lag 22:42:03 -!- astalla [n=astalla@93-36-227-56.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 22:43:25 balooga: well, there is a big difference between taking something simple and making it complex in order to set the bar higher, and taking something complex and making it simple in order to lower the bar. If you can't see that, then we don't have much to discuss. 22:43:33 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 22:43:33 fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 22:44:09 -!- kupad [n=kupad@dsl254-079-179.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:32 one is like removing the front wheel from a motorcycle, the other like adding a third... to make a false and horrible analogy. 22:45:16 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:33 i like this one better: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/segsuck2.jpg 22:45:47 "the lisp way" 22:47:10 guaqua: that's brilliant :) 22:47:22 it is :) 22:47:39 if you take segway as java 22:52:18 mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.73.139] has joined #lisp 22:55:20 When can a documentation string appear in a lambda/function definition form? CLHS says "In a number of situations, a documentation string can appear amidst a series of declare expressions prior to a series of forms.", however I'm a bit confused when it comes to the actual order of declarations/docstrings. I wrote a small parser which splits declarations/docstrings/body, it expected things to come in a certain order, and I think I'll have to rewrite it now. 22:57:08 for example, is the following order valid: decl decl decl docstring decl code? 22:57:12 Phoodus, don't know if still looking for one, but pjb has a highly customizable CL reader implemented in CL in the informatimago package 22:57:13 minion: parse-declarations 22:57:13 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``parse-declarations''. 22:57:19 (lambda () (declare (special bar)) "Asd" (declare (special baz)) 1) <-- i'm pretty sure that's entirely legal 22:57:27 clhs 3.4.11 22:57:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dk.htm 22:57:30 ljames, ^^ 22:57:44 Phoodus, see darcs get http://darcs.informatimago.com/local/darcs/public/lisp 22:59:15 Phoodus: WARNING: GPL alert! :D 22:59:20 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:20 maybe I'm not reading this right "In that case, if a string S appears where a documentation string is permissible and is not followed by either a declare expression or a form then S is taken to be a form; otherwise, S is taken as a documentation string. ", shouldn't it be the other way arond? 22:59:50 ljames: no, read it again. 22:59:55 drewc: I interpreted your earlier comment incorrectly then, appologies. 22:59:56 drewc, is it only me who dislike GPL? 23:00:31 ljames, there's alexandria:parse-body 23:00:37 drewc: I thought that getting sbcl to install easily is a difficult problem 23:01:28 levente_meszaros: no, i refuse to use GPL'd lisp software. nothing to do with like or dislike, i just distribute binaries sometimes to my clients and don't want any of them to claim my code is covered by GPL. 23:01:37 drewc: Thanks for your feedback. The config file is I think the best way to proceed. 23:01:44 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 23:01:58 balooga: `sh install.sh` is pretty simple if you ask me. 23:02:25 drewc: lispbuilder-sdl is MIT/BSD, so no problems with you using that then ;) 23:02:56 on windows ,who knows... and yes, i'd rather have a hard to install SBCL for windows if it means SBCL developers are working on something else that i actually use :) 23:03:13 drewc: There's my problem. I'm just using the default sbcl that is installed by the Ubuntu package manager. 23:03:19 levente_meszaros, thanks, that looks simpler than I imagined. 23:03:27 balooga: well, that's just wrong 23:03:40 ! 23:03:58 the only thing debian installed sbcl is good for is building sbcl from source 23:04:04 drewc: I am several significant versions SBCL behind. 23:04:06 s/debian/ubuntu 23:04:15 minion: tell balooga about clbuild 23:04:15 balooga: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:04:35 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.64.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:38 balooga: `clbuild compile-implementation sbcl` 23:05:26 drewc: I'll do that tonight :) 23:05:34 good call! :) 23:05:59 then, IIRC, `./clbuild install lispbuilder-sdl` 23:06:06 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:06:26 drewc: someone already added lispbuilder-sdl to clbuild :) 23:06:53 ljames: it says: (assert (typep x (if (and (stringp x) (potential-docstring-p x) (not (or (declare-after-p x) (form-after-p x)))) 'form 'docstring))) 23:06:59 yes, and note how easy it is to install! :P 23:07:48 What is the preferred way to organize defmacros and defuns? Should defmacros be at the top of a file? 23:08:47 fatblueduck: in the order that makes the most sense to the reader... usually the order they are required... 23:09:12 which is mean, macros are often at the very bottom of the file that defines the forms the macro expands to 23:09:48 balooga1 [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 23:09:55 (sorry about the 'which is mean'... i was hanging out with a buddy who is sicilian and he talks like that... it's catchy) 23:11:32 drewc: ok thanks 23:11:43 fatblueduck: i'd say 85% of the time, things stay right where i defined them. 23:13:48 this is usually because by the time it's becoming macros and defuns in a real file, i've already implemented it once, either at the repl on in a scratch file, and i'm just typing it out long-hand. 23:14:17 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:14:33 i actually have an example of this that i saved because i want to write an article about it 23:14:54 lisppaste: url? 23:14:54 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 23:16:15 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:26 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:06 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:23:06 adeht, oh, I understand now! Lisp is less ambiguous/easier to understand than natural languages ;) 23:23:16 drewc pasted "you'll always throw one away, so plan to" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/94066 23:23:46 egn [n=egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:51 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo3.132.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:24:21 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:35 ephcon [n=ephcon@student166-58.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 23:25:00 fatblueduck: like that... which has little bearing on the question you asked, but i somehow feel it's relevant. 23:25:54 drewc: it's quite helpful to see something like this 23:26:35 drewc: I like the organization a lot! 23:26:38 fatblueduck: i figured it might be, which is why i'd like to write something about it :) 23:27:16 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.67.72] has joined #lisp 23:27:50 drewc: it would be helpful 23:29:24 fatblueduck: offset-diff could probably have been broken up into smaller parts.. if i ever need to iterate diff opcodes again, there's a macro in there just waiting to be extracted, for one. 23:30:17 so... you write the whole thing out as one big chunk and then you proceed to break things down? 23:30:23 a version of myself from last year would probably have the CASE statement split up using a DEFGENERIC,,, 23:30:34 fatblueduck: for something like this, yes... 23:30:36 in PCL, Siebel iteratively builds and compacts the code as he goes 23:31:22 rickmode [n=rick@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:25 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:40 abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 23:31:54 fatblueduck: well, this is essentially the same thing, only the compaction didn't make any sense until i have offset-diff written. 23:32:10 because the rest of it is just support code for that. 23:33:28 and OFFSET-DIFF using a different datastructure than the repl version to store the offsets... because after i had written it, i knew how to write it! 23:33:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bmebloouicbnfrij] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:34:25 when i know what i'm doing, i take a slightly different approach... usually i define the protocol first in one file, then implement it in another. 23:34:45 Shamiq [n=Adium@wireless-165-124-97-68.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:34:49 (if its CLOS-y) 23:34:52 any freelancers here? 23:36:24 fatblueduck: the thing about PCL is that he's writing a book... i'll bet you his early versions of a lot of that stuff looked just like my quick hack there :) 23:36:47 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:38:41 drewc: I'm not totally convinced that _everything_ needs to be abstracted out as comprehensively as Siebel suggests... 23:39:26 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:46 fatblueduck: the think the important thing i'd like to get across is that i had no idea what OFFSET-DIFF was going to look like, or what it was going to be called, before i sat down at the repl. roughly 5 hours later, i was an expert in the domain of OFFSET-DIFF implementing, and was able to come up with a nicer implementation. 23:40:30 fatblueduck: everything that's going to be saved in a file and used in software certainly should be... throwaway code is throwaway code. 23:41:42 if i only had to do it once, i would have stopped when it worked. If i have to use it again, it has to be properly abstracted, formatted and documented... because i know the poor fool who will have to maintain this code is me. 23:41:42 drewc: ok, I'll accept that 23:42:25 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:54 Shamiq: I'm a freelancer, but am only a student of lisp right now 23:43:04 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-116-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:43:57 newbie question: is hunchenroot / cl-who / elephant the way to *cool* web framework tools these days? or is an alternative? I'm working through "Practical Common Lisp" and noodling with Aquamacs / SLIME / SBCL with an eye toward building a server-side / web app + iphone app 23:44:21 rickmode: hunchen_t_oot is quite nice 23:44:28 i'm not a fan of cl-who or elepant 23:44:43 [edited for clarity] newbie question: is hunchenroot / cl-who / elephant the way to got for a *cool* web framework tools these days? or is there an alternative? I'm working through "Practical Common Lisp" and noodling with Aquamacs / SLIME / SBCL with an eye toward building a server-side / web app + iphone app 23:44:46 UCW is quite excellent, but i'm biased a little there 23:45:13 drewc: ah ya i've heard of UCW as well 23:45:49 rickmode: and i _really_ like rucksack for persistence 23:45:57 where are some fancy UCW-powered web sites to check out? 23:45:57 minion: tell rickmode about rucksack 23:45:58 rickmode: look at rucksack: Rucksack is a persistence library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/rucksack 23:46:15 being new - i'd rather start with something well-founded than run off on a blind alley. I was digging into this stuff and narrowed in on Python/Django - which is still the best bet targettng google app engine, i think 23:46:24 rucksack as opposed to some ORM system? 23:46:43 (I did JEE crap for years and I'm sick of Java and lame ORM, btw) 23:46:55 -!- felideon is now known as felideon_ 23:47:03 rickmode: yeah, if you don't want/need ORM, i recommend rucksack 23:47:17 hefner: i'm not sure if any of them are public 23:47:27 hefner: it's not really for making web sites.... 23:47:44 okay, color me ignorant. 23:47:46 it's for applications that happen to use a browser for the UI 23:48:22 i personally have 5 apps that are cool as hell, but i can't show you them :( 23:48:40 no worries 23:48:45 *hefner* hates it when that happens 23:48:46 wiki.alu.org is ucw, but doesn't do anything really cool 23:48:56 it's actually unfinished and quite simplistic 23:49:31 do these frameworks the rails sort of thing wherein you rapidly get past the tedious CRUD stage? 23:49:33 attilla's thing was ucw based, and the core-server guys are also ucw based. 23:49:49 grrr: do these frameworks *DO* the rails thing.... 23:49:54 rickmode: none of these frameworks are focused on CRUD as such... 23:50:04 rickmode: Lisp on Lines is the only one i know of 23:50:14 (again, biased there) 23:50:45 I'm not sure the CL web situation could be more confusing 23:50:59 but lisp on lines + relational-objects-for-lisp+postgresql or lisp-on-lines + rucksack is free crud. 23:51:27 hefner: yeah, that's another article i'm planning to write. 23:51:36 what am i doing wasting time on #lisp! 23:51:40 *drewc* gets to work. 23:52:55 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.67.72] has quit [No route to host] 23:52:56 rickmode: i've been known to be very helpful towards newbies who are using the technologies i use/write/maintain, fwiw :D 23:53:10 (especially when they contribute documentation in return!) 23:53:28 that ramp - for CL and web is rough... Python (as an alternative) was almost trivial - i read through the python tutorial in a few hours, then the the online django book... simple 23:53:35 rickmode: like felideon! check out http://ifelipe.net/ 23:53:39 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:48 but though django seems powerful - the language feels like a hobbled lisp 23:53:55 rickmode: not really ... if all you want is simple, bare hunchentoot is pretty simple 23:54:09 the thing is, if all you wanted was simple, you wouldn't be here 23:54:14 :D 23:54:18 konr` [n=user@187.88.188.175] has joined #lisp 23:54:37 well - actually I do want simple - but simple as in less code more power 23:54:38 hehe 23:54:40 hunchentoot is useful and fun 23:54:54 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.59.104] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:59 but ya 23:55:08 rickmode: right.. you want your (programming) life to be simpler, not your web framework :) 23:55:42 although UCW is quite a learning curve. worth it though if you have to bang out a lot of database type apps like i do. 23:55:55 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:59 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 23:56:23 rickmode: for starting out and playing around, hunchentoot is kick-ass. 23:56:33 i hate cl-who though, try yaclml 23:56:37 minion: yaclml 23:56:37 yaclml: Yet Another Common Lisp Markup Language is a collection common lisp library for generating XML/HTML from lisp code or templates. http://www.cliki.net/yaclml 23:56:53 (again, biased... i think i'm the yaclml maintainer now) 23:57:00 I switched from cl-who to yaclml a couple weeks ago. 23:57:13 austinh: and? 23:57:22 you like? 23:57:29 It was an easy switch and solved the issues I had with cl-who. 23:57:46 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-253-089.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:57:46 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:57:46 -!- prip [n=_prip@host168-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [crichton.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:57:48 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 23:58:05 prip [n=_prip@host168-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:58:08 sweet, good news. 23:58:33 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.64.49] has joined #lisp 23:58:51 my new web framework will likely run on hunchentoot too... you can't go wrong with ediware 23:59:04 cl-who is ediware 23:59:10 true 23:59:36 there is nothing wrong with the implementation whatsoever... it's well documented and maintained... 23:59:40 i just don't like the approach