00:00:18 karlbennett: the handing of things such as C-c is highly implementation dependant. It also means that it depends on the exact version of your implementation. 00:01:31 In my version of sbcl, I get a sb-sys:interactive-interrupt. 00:02:23 pjb: I too get an sb-sys:interactive-interrupt. the weird thing is that the handler-case seems to be ineffective 00:02:38 rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:55 yeah that's what I noticed (handler-case) doesn't seem to do anything. But if this is implementation specific it seems it might be best to leave it alone. 00:06:24 karlbennett: I think you might have found a bug 00:06:55 really? Well I'm using sbcl version... 00:07:30 1.0.29.11 00:08:01 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:15 though maybe this isn't a bug. Maybe you were right in the beginning, this interrupt might be best left alone. 00:08:57 -!- Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-179.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:05 In anycase it's strange. We should be able to handle any condition... 00:13:15 maybe it's a case for sb-sys:enable-interrupt 00:16:17 Xach: that's already done in src/code/target-signal.lisp:signal-cold-init-or-reinit 00:16:31 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:16:53 fe[nl]ix: i mean for specialized handling of ctrl-c. 00:17:11 Xach: the thing is that the interrupt is received, and the messages seem to indicate that a sb-sys:interactive-interrupt condition is being handled (we enter the debugger), but neither handler-case nor handler-bind can catch it... 00:17:19 ok 00:17:51 Perhaps they have a different path for this interrupt, than for normal condition handling? 00:18:02 sounds like a case for ... 00:18:12 Super-nyef 00:18:46 00:19:27 I should stop before I actually start writing lyrics. Given my current state of mind, it wouldn't be surprising 00:21:15 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 00:22:57 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 00:24:09 *p_l* is going to experiment soon with ECL on Android 00:27:05 porcelina [n=quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:16 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]"] 00:30:15 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-123-182.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:40:04 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 00:45:55 -!- knobo [n=bohmersp@noosbohknu.freecode.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:29 knobo [n=bohmersp@noosbohknu.freecode.no] has joined #lisp 00:47:36 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:48:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:42 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:00:18 aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has joined #lisp 01:02:51 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:03:59 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:52 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:45 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:09:18 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:20 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:27 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:02 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:44 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [] 01:19:21 HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 01:21:32 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.236] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:25:25 -!- kclifton [n=kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:20 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["good night everyone"] 01:34:05 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 01:34:53 An interactive break always hitting the debugger instead of being handlable? Sounds about right to me, TBH. ISTR there being some language in the spec either requiring or strongly encouraging such behavior. 01:35:43 (Oh yeah, and I'm back for an hour or so before bed.) 01:35:51 pkhuong: Ping? 01:43:49 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:44:17 -!- karlbennett [n=karl@mx3.youthnet.org] has quit ["leaving"] 01:45:12 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:03 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:19 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:53 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:53 nyef: looks good to me. 01:52:02 Yay. 01:53:25 That's one chapter down, at least. 01:53:44 I'm thinking a chapter on how the type system works should be next. 01:56:32 The other thing I wanted to ask was if you had any idea how to spin a lightning talk about wider fixnums for a general lisper audience. 01:56:58 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 01:57:36 Because I'm drawing rather a blank, but have sufficient time available to throw something together before the boston lisp meeting tomorrow in case there's an open lightning talk slot. 01:58:51 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:40 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:47 I wish there was an Iowa lisp meeting sometime.....not many people from Iowa doing Lisp :( 02:00:54 Are you near one of the borders? Perhaps you can set up a catchment area to attract lispers from a neighboring state? 02:02:01 (I take it that Chicago is a bit far to go?) 02:02:04 I'm nearish to IL, but yeah..I think I need to do some google searches to see if there are more in the midwest. There was a google maps that had CLers, but just so few in the U.S. 02:02:04 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:02:08 4 hours away 02:02:23 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:02:35 Iowa city? 02:02:40 yep 02:03:13 -!- twillis [n=willistg@cpe-65-27-233-147.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:20 dang wish I could find that google maps link once again, it was pretty nice 02:03:21 Yeah, don't know what to say. 02:04:09 I just gotta move to another location sometime for at least a few years. There's a lot of good programmers here, but it's mostly just web development with Java and C# around here. 02:05:32 here we go, this is the link I was looking at: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=114830829398919898492.000461fa38297b8417186 02:07:58 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:12 planet.lisp.org has the map 02:08:42 billstclair [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 02:09:08 Xach: yeah, it's the same map as the one I posted. 02:09:11 Hrm... Looks like clusters in california, washington, and the new england area, but there are also only three people shown in any proximity to chicago, which suggests some sort of selection bias as to the data points on the map. 02:09:24 Xach: Will you be at boston lisp meeting tomorrow? 02:15:28 nyef: yeah, could be 02:16:13 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:18 Only one lisper in all of china, only one lisper in all of japan? 02:18:11 Looks like two in China to me. :) 02:18:15 it is not a complete map 02:18:20 lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.161] has joined #lisp 02:19:03 *Xach* won't be at the boston lisp meeting 02:19:17 I really didn't think it would be a complete map. Might be somewhat representative of the density of lisp users around the world, but isn't any good for absolute numbers. 02:19:17 And paging has an effect, so that makes three in China. :) 02:20:02 Knowing Iowa like I know Iowa, though...there are likely few CLers around here. Spoke with one person who used to do CL, but not any more - he's actually a big perl fan at the moment. 02:20:12 Zhivago: I don't suppose you have a PhD, do you? 02:20:15 the google map interface has some flaws with hundreds of users that weren't clear with a handful of users. 02:20:26 nyef: Nope. Why do you ask? 02:20:39 Zhivago: Because that would make you Doctor Zhivago! 02:20:46 How exciting that would be. 02:21:11 (I'll let all of the classic movie fans groan at the pun now.) 02:22:05 movie? 02:22:13 Wasn't it a movie? 02:22:21 Not originally. 02:22:28 Ah, and a book. 02:22:28 nyef, Xach - do you both work at ITA? was at the boston lisper's site and that site was mentioned. 02:22:29 But the movie was popular with the subliterate classes. 02:22:49 TDT: I don't work for ITA. I'm a train ride from boston so sometimes I make it to the meetings. 02:22:58 many people at the meeting are ITA employees 02:22:59 Xach: ah ok 02:23:25 TDT: I don't work for ITA either. I drive from new hampshire to the meetings when I can. 02:24:34 Anyhow, vewy few asian lispers sounds about right. 02:24:38 er, very. 02:25:54 ah ok. Hmm...I wonder if the leader of the users group wouldn't mind a teleconferencing option so remote people can "attend", or at least be able to listn somewhat. 02:26:13 Don't they video-tape it? 02:26:40 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f6622f8-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:01 hmm, nice, looks like some stuff is. 02:27:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:24 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:28:24 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:28:37 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:32:08 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@79.102.7.234] has joined #lisp 02:36:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:37:50 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 02:40:50 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:22 is there some SLIME command to spawn a new REPL thread? 02:48:55 I just gave mine a task which is taking longer than I expected, and I'd like to monitor the progress from another thread 02:50:17 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:50:50 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.11.218] has joined #lisp 02:52:12 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:54:39 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.11.218] has quit [Client Quit] 02:57:26 what is the diffence between #+ALREADY_COVERED and #+:ALREADY_COVERED ? 02:57:52 A colon. 02:58:07 well when i push into *FEATURES* i am pushing :ALREADY_COVERED 02:58:07 (#+ already binds to the keyword package.) 02:58:19 Right. 02:58:19 ok good 02:58:35 so the : is implicit with a #+ 02:58:36 xokres [i=ola@d01-0124b.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #lisp 02:58:38 ? 02:58:47 Basically, yes. 02:59:29 good .. i was hoping that was how it works 03:00:53 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:40 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:07:59 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:08:52 How horrible is it to use reference counting (with cycle detection) instead of a global mark-and-sweep? 03:09:29 It's... pretty bad. 03:09:40 Python does it. 03:09:51 Imagine that. 03:10:07 I just don't know of any lisps that work that way. 03:10:10 quotemstr: how do you detect cycles? Refcounts and mark/sweep pretty much form the endpoint of a gradient for GC algorithms. It's a bit of a red herring. 03:10:15 Shall I point out that reference counting would -double- the cost of a cons cell? 03:10:51 PHP uses reference counting too. If it's good enough for Zend, it's good enough for me! 03:10:53 Plus there's the overhead of maintaining the refcount, in terms of memory accesses spent, CPU synchronization required, etc. 03:11:08 Particularly given that reference counting doesn't work. :) 03:11:31 nyef: More, actually. You have a reference count, and on top of that, you need two pointers to maintain a linked list of cons cells. 03:11:40 Zhivago: Sure it does, if you include cycle detection. 03:11:53 quotemstr: In which case you don't need reference counting. 03:12:28 quotemstr: So having reference counting just gives you the least efficient method that doesn't work, and then you can make that work by making it even less efficient by adding a real garbage collector. 03:12:39 Compounded stupidity. :) 03:13:32 What about the argument that using a reference count too improves locality of reference and cleans up garbage sooner? 03:14:17 There are better ways to do that. 03:14:42 What you're using reference counting for there is as a kind of brain-damaged escape analysis mechanism. 03:15:19 It's simpler than full-fledged escape analysis. 03:15:29 Brain damage often is. :) 03:15:48 But the costs are so high that it seems unlikely that you can break even with that approach. 03:16:27 Also, the other problem is that full-fledged mark and sweep either requires conservative GC or instrumenting each possible reference. 03:16:39 Why are you talking about mark-and-sweep? 03:17:00 Zhivago: That's the canonical full garbage collection approach. 03:17:02 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:16 No, that's the retarded little brother approach to garbage collection. 03:17:19 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 03:17:32 It works, but it isn't really doing a good job. 03:17:56 What approach would you recommend? It's a mixed C++ and Lisp program, and C++ code can hold references to Lisp objects. 03:18:10 Well, that's a good reason for taking retarded approaches. 03:18:15 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:18:33 Not being able to move objects around is one excuse for using mark and sweep. 03:19:05 But there are other stationary collectors. 03:19:23 See if there's a library around with Jones and Lin's Garbage Collection book in it. 03:19:31 It provides a good introduction. 03:19:53 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-189-222.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 03:20:10 Zhivago: There's still the problem of knowing where the references are. The nice thing about reference counting is that you don't need to figure that out. The other obvious approach is adding each reference to some kind of global data structure that tracks all the references, but that seems to have about the same overhead as reference counting. 03:20:17 Hrm. 03:20:28 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:20:52 Well, if you can't support sufficient introspection to be able to walk your object graph .. 03:22:12 Walking the object graph isn't a problem so much as walking the stack to figure out where the roots are. 03:22:30 quotemstr, there's a paper by Henry Baker about a nonmoving supposedly efficient GC. I don't know if it's any good, but the paper's at http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/NoMotionGC.html 03:22:40 So either conservative-scan the stack, or use your debug information to find the live object references. Big whoop. 03:22:43 That's because you aren't considering the stack to be part of your object graph. 03:22:48 I'll read it. Thanks. 03:23:03 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:06 It's part of the graph, and once you realize that, you can think about how to annotate it sufficiently for the required introspection. 03:23:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:53 If I can enumerate all the references, can't I use a moving GC? 03:25:08 If you can modify all of the references, sure. 03:25:22 quotemstr: hash tables based on item address? 03:25:38 mle: For which problem? 03:25:45 -!- TDT [n=user@173-30-223-49.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:05 If you can partition your references into those that can be modified and those that can't, you can use a hybrid scheme. 03:26:30 quotemstr: well eq hashes of that sort need to be rebuilt on movement, that's all. 03:26:43 mle: absolutely not. 03:26:55 Ah, I see. 03:27:55 They don't have to be rebuilt on movement, they have to be rebuilt no later than the first access post-movement. 03:27:59 storing object IDs a la JVMs is moving GC safe, and just as unique (better for hashing, actually) as addresses. 03:28:46 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:51 pkhuong: sure. Not advocating that implementation. 03:29:02 And what about transparent larger address spaces using long object pointers on disk and short ones for pages in memory? 03:29:28 hmmmmm 03:30:47 with 64bit addresses there is a strong temptation to just go back to using large mmap()s 03:31:26 why have a hybrid pointer system when you can fit it all in a single address space? 03:32:25 mle: 48 bits isn't that big anymore. 03:33:13 "Your data set is -how- large?!?" 03:33:19 256 terabytes of addressable memory in 48 bits... 03:33:39 it's still pretty big. 03:33:44 Not all of that 48 bits is usable, though, is it? 03:35:02 ogait [i=filipe@d01-0124a.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #lisp 03:35:05 i think the more relevant issue is pointers to data on other nodes in a cluster 03:35:24 some sort of application-level NUMA, perhaps. 03:35:33 Tuple spaces? 03:35:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:36:46 Hrm. 03:36:51 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-150.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:12 *quotemstr* wonders whether using a self-rooting smart pointer, but only for references on the stack, would do the trick. 03:37:51 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f736bbc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:10 No. Proof left as an excersize for the reader. 03:40:06 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:41 hello, im new about lisp and im trying to understand something that i need for a task. The task say that i need to define a function, wich counts a number of odd numbers in a list. If someone can help me i would be really aprecciate. Im sure that its not difficult but i dont have much time 03:42:36 if anyone know any site that i can check some easy functions it would be great 03:42:47 nyef: Why not? Assuming other parts of the object group could be enumerated, it should work fine. 03:43:40 quotemstr: Register set spills during funcall or from signal contextx. 03:43:49 s/xtx/xts/ 03:44:03 clhs oddp 03:44:11 Adlai: specbot isn't registered. 03:44:16 gah. right. 03:44:17 -!- cmeow_ [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:44:19 Adlai: And we're still +R. 03:44:36 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:55 cmeow [i=cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 03:44:58 nyef: Just forbid GC from signal handlers then? 03:45:00 hm 03:45:12 quotemstr: Still doesn't help with the funcall case. 03:45:46 nyef: What do you mean? During a function call, the original reference will still be on the list of roots. 03:45:53 ogait, http://l1sp.org/cl/17.3 has documentation for functions that operate on sequences. I think one of them would be very useful for you. 03:46:14 thank you Adlai. 03:46:23 er, wait 03:46:25 that url doesn't work 03:46:32 ya hehe 03:46:45 Xach, l1sp.org needs more dwim.hu 03:47:04 ogait, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_sequen.htm 03:47:16 thank you again. 03:47:57 you're welcome, ogait :) 03:48:01 quotemstr: Yes, but there could easily be other references not on the list of roots spilled to the stack. 03:49:09 ogait, also, if you want people to look at code you've written, you can put it on the pastebin linked in the channel topic. (your IRC client should display that if you enter /topic ) 03:49:31 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.17.208] has joined #lisp 03:49:37 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72622d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:50:32 nyef: The references would be accounted for somewhere. 03:50:53 Very well, have at then. Just beware of dragons. 03:51:12 nyef: I'm not talking about scanning the stack, but rather maintaining a per-thread separate stack of stack-based references. 03:51:51 And I'm saying that unless you're on -very- good terms with your compiler that you're going to lose -somehow-. 03:53:35 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-206-183.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:55:04 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:55:04 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 03:56:43 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:44 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:27 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:25 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:20 G'night all. 04:04:47 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:05:15 Night. 04:09:28 mbohun [n=mbohun@203.171.197.212] has joined #lisp 04:11:12 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:11:44 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 04:13:54 -!- mbohun [n=mbohun@203.171.197.212] has quit [Client Quit] 04:16:01 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:19:42 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:21 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-193-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:17 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.17.208] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:28 anekos [n=anekos@pl932.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:35:08 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:17 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:18 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 04:39:47 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:02 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:44:35 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:46:46 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 04:48:30 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-255-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:39 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 04:54:18 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:10 chris___1 [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 05:05:07 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:33 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:12:13 impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442389.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:18:21 balooga [n=00u4440@76.194.233.139] has joined #lisp 05:18:35 dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:21 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:32 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:58 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has joined #lisp 05:28:45 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.161] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:46 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 05:28:53 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:24 ud_ [i=ud@ud.net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:36:05 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:14 -!- peterwang [n=user@122.227.189.156] has left #lisp 05:36:36 does this make sense to anyone as a timestamp? 0004 7da9 9a63 8100 05:37:25 a recent timestamp, that is. a unix timeval for today starts with 4b 05:37:48 Damn those mayans. 05:38:08 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["asdf"] 05:38:11 <_3b> random guess says double float 05:38:41 -!- Vonunov is now known as Kaviado 05:39:49 (format t "~16R" (/ #x00047da99a638100 1000000)) 05:39:50 *sykopomp* scratches his head at PLT Scheme's module/namespace system. 05:39:58 4B5822E4 05:40:09 so there we have it, microseconds since 1970 epoch 05:40:47 <_3b> or that :) 05:41:00 don't mind me thinking out aloud in here :) 05:41:08 evening 05:43:06 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 05:44:11 syko: Looks like an inheritable 'letrec'. 05:46:57 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:48:13 -!- ogait [i=filipe@d01-0124a.kn.vutbr.cz] has quit [] 05:50:26 larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:51:49 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:48 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 05:59:20 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:59:31 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:59:35 ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:29 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:15:56 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:15:57 -!- tmh [n=user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:17:43 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:39 -!- larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:24:22 larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:24:51 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:05 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.88] has joined #lisp 06:31:50 vng [n=user@123.20.95.121] has joined #lisp 06:32:21 Good afternoon #lisp 06:32:33 hey vng 06:32:41 hello Adlai 06:33:00 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:33:55 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-176-195.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:53 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:35:49 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:22 -!- defn [i=code@powerprecision.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:43:05 defn [i=code@powerprecision.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:53 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:48:25 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:05 -!- Adlai is now known as adlai_ 06:50:14 -!- ephcon [n=ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:14 -!- adlai_ is now known as Adlai 06:54:04 is it possible to add support for Scheme-style continuations in CL? 06:54:19 everything is possible 06:54:52 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:55:02 OK, and how, if I may ask? would you have to extend the compiler or can you clone the stack in "user" code? 06:55:02 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["work"] 06:55:35 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:55:44 -!- larry65 [n=larry65@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:56:02 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442389.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 06:57:40 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01:30 RaceCondition: If you want full scheme style continuations, you'll have to write a compiler/interpreter for a CL-like language that includes continuations. 07:01:57 RaceCondition: luckily, you don't need scheme style continuations. 07:02:51 Good morning! 07:03:11 drewc: why do I not need them in CL? and why do I need them in scheme? (I'm asking, not arguing) 07:03:12 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:04:06 RaceCondition: you don't _need_ them in scheme either, it's all about tradeoffs. 07:04:17 We get unwind-protect, they get call/cc 07:04:18 good morning beach 07:04:43 drewc: OK 07:04:47 you don't need full continuations in CL because you can do whatever you were going to use continuations for some other way. 07:04:58 I use continuation in CL everyday, FWIW. 07:05:02 continuations* 07:05:22 but they're delimited 07:05:31 you mean call/cc or CL-style continuations? 07:05:39 OK, CL-style then 07:05:46 drewc: don't they have unwind-protect, too? :) 07:05:50 CL-style, whatever that means. 07:05:52 sykopomp: no 07:05:57 not really. 07:06:06 dalkvist [n=cairdaza@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 07:06:25 -!- frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:06:29 dynamic-wind, isn't it called? 07:06:43 dynamic-wind is not unwind-protect 07:06:48 ok 07:07:19 "consequences are undefined" is a pretty common CL idiom for telling you shit like "re-entering into an unwind-protect with a continuation is a bad idea, don't do it" 07:07:36 why is it a bad idea to have both, if you can just say "don't pull stupid shit"? 07:07:38 it's not that simple 07:08:21 well, the problem is really in re-entry, right? 07:08:45 banning re-entry is -one- solution, and you get both u-p and full continuations 07:08:58 that said, I don't see any reason why delimited continuations aren't enough, in CL :) 07:09:01 it's not a full continuation then, is it? 07:09:36 drewc: if it only prevents re-entry into an unwind-protect, or tells you bats will fly out your nose if you try, then that's a 'full enough' continuation, imo. 07:10:18 -technically-, you can re-enter, but it's your own fault if you re-run a cleanup form :) 07:10:25 no 07:10:40 sykopomp: Where could you ever use the "full" power? 07:10:41 why would the cleanup form run again? 07:11:11 tcr: I have no idea, tbh. I don't really get what the big deal with full continuations is if you have the other stack-management functions in CL 07:11:24 and those would probably be faster and easier to implement, from what I understand. 07:11:27 No I mean where do you know that you're not inside an uwp? 07:11:28 sykopomp: i can argue for the sematics that the cleanup for ran when the continuation escaped the dynamic extent of the unwind-protect 07:11:51 tcr: dunno, I haven't read too much into the specifics of the suggestions. 07:12:25 sykopomp: i suggest you read up on the issue, it's interesting. 07:12:44 drewc: I read some about it a while ago, I just don't care that much at this point :\ 07:12:59 was it kent pitman that wrote a bunch of suggestions about it? 07:13:12 ah yes, yes it was. 07:13:32 again, it's been a while, and I don't even use delimited continuations for anything atm :) 07:15:46 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:15:53 -!- xokres [i=ola@d01-0124b.kn.vutbr.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17:51 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.64.164] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:05 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 07:20:20 Reaver1 [n=User@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:20:21 adlai_ [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:22:23 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.67.24] has joined #lisp 07:26:26 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:27:07 UNWIND-PROTECT is (a bit) like finally in Java/Python/C++? 07:27:43 RaceCondition: It's exactly like finally. 07:27:59 C++ does not have finally. 07:28:01 quotemstr: great 07:28:17 Zhivago: I had a doubt about, yes :P it's been a while since my last line of C++ 07:28:33 It is similar to an auto object's destructor in C++, except for rethrowing. 07:28:36 Zhivago: Ah, but it does have BOOST_SCOPE_EXIIT. 07:28:41 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.135.24.220] has joined #lisp 07:28:56 -!- adlai_ [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has left #lisp 07:29:41 quote: Does that handle throwing exceptions naturally? 07:29:53 Zhivago: Yes. 07:29:57 Good. 07:30:08 Zhivago: It's quite clever. It uses an instance of a local type. 07:30:09 Zhivago, doesn't your IRC client have tab completion for nicks? 07:30:15 Yes, it does not. 07:30:19 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@76.194.233.139] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:33:01 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 07:35:39 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:37:16 frode [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 07:37:26 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 07:37:43 -!- frode [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has left #lisp 07:38:01 frodef [n=frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 07:43:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 07:43:52 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.135.24.220] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:44:26 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:44:44 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@115.135.24.220] has joined #lisp 07:44:45 ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.59] has joined #lisp 07:44:46 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.134.12.104] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:48 ogait [i=filipe@d01-0124a.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #lisp 07:44:53 -!- lukego_ is now known as lukego 07:45:21 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:45:21 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 07:45:36 hi guys, is this function: (defun list-pos (list) (#'>0 list)) checking if the list only have positive numbers? 07:46:04 no 07:46:20 this is not valid Common Lisp 07:46:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:46:31 ogait, you can't use (#'function args), that's not valid syntax 07:47:27 the first element of a form is treated specially, and can't have #'foo in it. 07:47:32 (every #'plusp list) will check for positive numbers 07:48:21 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-234-12.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:54:36 das [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:40 hmm, suppose i have a list of functions and i want to return the first true value, can i somehow do this via CLOS? 07:57:05 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:58:06 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:40 stassats`, why via CLOS? 07:58:49 stassats: like.. OR method combination? 07:58:57 stassats`: sure... use the append method combination with an :around 07:59:03 or, 07:59:07 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["driving away from the wlan point"] 07:59:40 hrm 07:59:42 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:45 i thought about using OR, but i can't figure how for this problem, i'll describe it exactly 08:00:14 what you need is MULTI with reduce #'or 08:00:16 :D 08:00:43 stassats` is any function like plusp but instead of positive numbers for negative? 08:00:43 some #'funcall .. 08:00:51 i want a mapping file-name -> handler-of-this-file-type, and i want to be able to register new handlers 08:00:54 minusp 08:00:56 ogait: minusp 08:01:07 ya sorry for asking i saw it right now :p 08:01:12 thank you anyway 08:01:35 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:01:41 and you want the handler dispatch to be dynamic 08:02:30 stassats`: what's wrong with a hashtable? 08:02:58 Ralith: nothing's wrong 08:03:00 stassats: how do you determine file-type? is it more complicated than (say) equalp? 08:03:00 (loop for fun in *handlers* with result = (funcall fun) when result :do (return result)) ? 08:03:57 drewc: well, i can do this easily 08:04:07 i thought about some neat clossy way 08:04:29 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-27-82-248-17-174.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:55 stassats: I think CLOS would help only if you had some kind of hierarchy there 08:05:46 maybe if there was a way to call all methods of a GF 08:06:27 not only applicable 08:07:34 I bet you can do that.. but I would consider it bad style 08:08:22 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:10:51 can anyone help me understand why 'a doesn't get modified in (let ((a (list 1 2))) ((lambda (b) (push 0 b)) a) a)? 08:11:08 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 08:11:23 splittist [i=3ecb8b6a@gateway/web/freenode/x-onsywwwiieqychww] has joined #lisp 08:11:25 morning 08:11:48 koning_robot: why should it get modified? 08:11:54 koning_robot: because you never modify it. 08:12:15 koning_robot, only the value of that variable gets passed to the lambda 08:12:43 but it's a list, am i not passing a reference to the list? and doesn't push then modify the original list? 08:13:23 push does (setf b (cons 0 b)) 08:13:25 koning_robot: push does not modify lists. 08:13:26 push modifies the place you supply to it, viz. B 08:14:26 koning_robot: in Common Lisp you cannot pass references.. you can only pass by value 08:14:31 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["leaving this wlan point too now"] 08:14:57 adeht: But you can pass cons cells and modify those. :-) 08:15:18 or any object that holds a reference to another object. 08:15:27 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 08:15:33 quotemstr: yes, but that's irrelevant 08:15:54 okay, that was dumb.. I even looked at the clhs page for push and didn't see that it doesn't modify the list 08:15:57 das64 [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:59 thanks :) 08:16:04 -!- das [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 08:16:17 koning_robot: if you were actually modifying the list, then you might see a difference. 08:16:29 unfortunately, you're not actually modifying the list at all. 08:16:37 -!- das64 [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:17:02 das [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:24 koning_robot: all you're doing there is (setq b (cons 0 b)) 08:17:39 -!- das [n=das@adsl-67-124-39-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:18:00 which doesn't change the list that was originally in b at all, it just creates a new cons whose cdr refers to that old list, and changes the current lexical binding of b. 08:18:41 now, if you did a destructive operation on b, or if b was something like a vector, you would see the difference after side-effecting the same data structure. 08:18:59 vng` [n=user@123.20.110.161] has joined #lisp 08:19:15 push is a destructive operation 08:19:20 -!- vng` [n=user@123.20.110.161] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:30 adeht: it doesn't destroy the structure of the original list. 08:19:35 koning_robot: (defun npush (thing list) (let ((cdr (cons (car list) (cdr list)))) (setf (car list) thing (cdr list) cdr))) 08:19:37 which is what I meant. 08:19:48 vng` [n=user@123.20.110.161] has joined #lisp 08:20:24 drewc: (npush 0 '()) 08:20:35 adeht: ya, i know. 08:21:45 adeht: drewc meant to leave making npush a generic-function with a method specialised on NIL to the reader (: 08:21:53 drewc: It might be better to demonstrate this with something like an extensible vector instead of combining the "lists are made of conses" and the "lexical variables are not references" explanations 08:22:41 (defstruct pointer deref) 08:23:03 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.135.24.220] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:23:10 I understand what went wrong now, I was simply working under the wrong assumption that push modifies the original list. 08:23:20 drewc: or locatives :D 08:23:29 koning_robot: see adeht's reply to my npush ;) 08:23:50 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:01 drewc: it struck me just now that your npush reads really funny :P 08:24:20 drewc: it would make a schemer cry :D 08:24:35 and I'm all for making schemers cry. 08:25:26 minion: screamer? 08:25:27 screamer: Screamer is an extension of Common Lisp (thus a Library) that adds support for nondeterministic programming including backtracking and undoable side-effects. http://www.cliki.net/screamer 08:25:28 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:25:29 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@219.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:25:39 will it make them scream? 08:25:39 drewc: do you mean to say that what I expected push to do wouldn't work on nil? 08:25:58 koning_robot: yes, exactly. 08:26:48 ok, that's clear 08:29:47 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.88] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 08:29:59 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 08:32:03 maus [n=maus@118.68.210.128] has joined #lisp 08:33:00 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.95.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:14 Good afternoon! 08:33:20 hello maus 08:33:29 Hello beach 08:33:32 :) 08:33:34 good morning 08:33:42 hello mvilleneuve 08:34:00 Hello mvilleneuve 08:34:01 *p_l* goes for exam. Data Management 08:34:49 beach, How are you doing? 08:34:59 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:00 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:35:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:36:07 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.135.24.220] has joined #lisp 08:36:41 -!- vng` [n=user@123.20.110.161] has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:12 vng [n=user@123.20.110.161] has joined #lisp 08:38:35 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:39:17 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:06 maus: Fine thanks. What about yourself? 08:43:47 beach, thank you, i'm okie.. but few minutes ago, I felt headache :) 08:44:04 maus: Did you forget to take a nap today? 08:46:08 beach, when i waked up this morning I felt everything was turning around.. then after lunch i take a rest and it's really better now :) 08:47:18 levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-41-9.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 08:47:39 -!- chris___1 [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 08:48:03 nostoi [n=nostoi@82.Red-79-150-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:24 Good, good! :) 08:48:54 :)) 08:54:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:44 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:55 beach, you have classes this week? 08:56:24 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:59 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:57:00 maus: I do, yes. But not as many as last week. 08:57:37 beach, ah. What classes are that? 08:58:32 -!- ogait [i=filipe@d01-0124a.kn.vutbr.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:38 maus: "algorithmics 3" for the third-year undergraduates and "programming project" for the first-year masters students. 08:59:20 two times 1 hour and 20 minutes for the first one and four times 45 minutes for the second one. 09:00:18 beach, yes. 09:02:11 test 09:02:20 stassats`, are you looking for a portable solution? 09:02:56 trittweiler: i was, but i went with a list of functions 09:03:03 You can add a customize specializer-type in SBCL, so you can write methods (defmethod foo ((p (pathname-type "txt")) ...) ...) 09:06:37 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 09:07:05 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-28-86.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:12:18 -!- addled [n=adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:13:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 09:14:07 -!- Reaver1 [n=User@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:19 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:18:34 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:02 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@82.Red-79-150-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:23:07 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:23:21 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.67.24] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:24:23 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-16-44.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:44 trittweiler: ah, yes, good point 09:24:48 I think I can make that preprint available 09:26:20 http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/els2009/unportable.pdf 09:26:24 please do not find any typos in it 09:27:07 is that a revision, or the version I already read? 09:27:18 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:27 it is a revision 09:27:32 it's not a substantial revision 09:28:37 but it is the version that will get published, more or less 09:30:25 but since you mentioned pathname-type specializers... 09:31:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.88] has joined #lisp 09:35:19 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:00 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 09:37:34 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.37] has joined #lisp 09:39:16 Reaver1 [n=User@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:40:21 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:17 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:27 -!- qeb`away [i=finnrobi@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has left #lisp 09:46:52 qebab [i=finnrobi@lynx.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 09:46:57 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:03 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:55 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:50:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:34 as i understand, there's no way to tell SBCL about CRLF line ending? 09:51:38 that is correct 09:51:53 I had a plan for it but I can't remember what it was 09:52:13 I think I concluded that it wasn't too hard to implement something that would fool most people into thinking it worked 09:52:23 alright, i'm using flexi-streams currently for this 09:52:48 bah what crap 09:52:56 though it's dog slow on ccl, but fortunately you can tell ccl about clrf 09:53:05 new-value is specified to be a "string" for (setf documentation) 09:53:19 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:53:22 larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:53:24 and allegro actually barfs on nil 09:59:52 Uh no my bad :-) type declaration missing (or null...) 09:59:55 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:25 -!- madsy_ [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1163.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:48 -!- larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-195-111.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 10:03:01 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:11 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:20 -!- vng [n=user@123.20.110.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:53 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-184.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:07:25 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:08:05 -!- Reaver1 [n=User@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:04 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:26 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 10:09:33 geramuk [n=despot@71.92.98.86] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229079024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:20 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:13:26 Krystof: uhm.. trying sb-sprof-example passing :time (after trying with :cpu) I get "WARNING: No sampling progress; possibly a profiler bug." 10:13:41 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1163.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:13:46 addled [n=adl@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:51 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:02 I guess max-samples is reached due to the first sleep 10:15:57 -!- madsy is now known as Madsy 10:16:49 what did I say? Don't find any mistakes, please :-) 10:16:52 hmm, nope.. number of samples is 0 10:17:14 it looks like a mistake in sb-sprof, not your paper :) 10:18:37 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:18 are you on some broken OS? 10:19:55 can you be more specific? 10:21:04 sadly, no, I can reproduce that here 10:21:05 gah 10:21:55 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]"] 10:22:10 claudia20100125 [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 10:22:40 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 10:23:50 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:09 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:53 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:27:05 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:28:39 Is there some way to express (version<= ...) in SBCL? 10:30:23 export symbol at point is broken again, doh 10:30:34 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:31:39 "again"? 10:32:35 it was broken once on implementations which can't locate defpackage 10:36:01 -!- maus [n=maus@118.68.210.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:43:22 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:47:44 is there ever a good reason to use version<= over #.(check-for-the-feature)? 10:48:33 feature exists but has different properties? 10:49:00 performance wise properties are hard to test 10:50:20 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:49 adeht: hah 10:51:57 I wondered if it was an issue between threaded/non-threaded 10:53:45 and it is, but I managed to crash the lisp completely in testing it 10:54:09 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:56:26 lichtblau, I want to get rid of lots of #.() crap in swank-sbcl by requiring a specific version 10:57:04 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:57:28 Krystof: I don't understand the timer-thread.. it does nothing but wait for different value of *timer-thread* (after setup) 10:58:06 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 10:59:40 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:59:42 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:59:43 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:52 adeht: mm, I don't know 10:59:58 trittweiler: there is no way to do that 11:00:19 even if there is now, future changes to the versioning scheme will invalidate whatever you come up with 11:01:15 Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:01:22 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.48.125] has joined #lisp 11:02:52 Man, the Scheme people have some strange ideas. CASE-LAMBDA? 11:04:21 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:07 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:07:19 trittweiler: that was due to (slime-forward-blanks) --> (skip-chars-forward "[:space:]") 11:07:33 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 11:07:40 adu [n=ajr@pool-173-66-8-210.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:26 oh do rather not change that 11:09:27 was Paolo ripped off by APress? http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log/061227.html 11:09:58 "ANSI CL Reference Book publication date delayed to late February 2008" -- 12/27/2006 11:09:58 trittweiler: i'm not changing, i'm figuring out "why?" 11:10:30 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:39 maybe because of this commentary "newlines aren't in lisp-mode's whitespace syntax class" 11:12:03 (skip-chars-forward " \n\t") works 11:12:33 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 11:13:00 What would break if (symbolp nil) didn't hold, and if nil were made a special type of object with read and print syntax "nil"? 11:13:16 what would gain? 11:14:01 stassats`, I thought [:space:] not to be based on syntax-classes 11:14:42 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 11:15:34 i'd think so too 11:15:37 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:19 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:26:41 *stassats`* cries on emacs regexps 11:28:26 lisp code for matching will contain less characters than it has slashes 11:29:35 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:23 regexp-- 11:30:48 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:31:43 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 11:33:37 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:42 any idea whether maxima can be compiled with CCL? 11:36:48 it can 11:36:51 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 11:37:00 at least it could in the past 11:37:59 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:46:05 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.48.125] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:48:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:31 -!- drwho [n=d@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Gauss Eleminated"] 11:56:47 quotemstr: there was a lot of discussion of this sort of thing historically. The Gabriel/Steele HOPL paper has some details. 11:58:20 -!- dys` is now known as dys 11:58:37 -!- billstclair [wws@clozure-5627EB61.taconic.net] has quit [Input/output error] 11:59:29 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:16 HOPL is a good read. 12:00:24 is there a newer version than HOPL2-Uncut.pdf ? 12:00:42 tfb: Thanks. I'll take a look. 12:01:03 And citeseerx is borked. 12:01:18 www.dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 12:01:23 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:31 Thanks. 12:02:36 dreamsongs has a lot of interesting papers 12:02:59 tic: I suspect not: I bet they cut it then cleaned it up (so the cut version is probably newer but has less) 12:03:21 tic: but it might be worth asking him 12:03:55 there's video also 12:03:58 Good idea. That never occured to me. 12:04:31 This one is also an interesting read (just generally). http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 12:04:50 knobo` [n=bohmersp@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 12:06:43 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:07:44 unicode [n=user@95.214.3.245] has joined #lisp 12:09:24 quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:06 -!- quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:10:09 quotemstr__ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:43 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:10:48 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:10:50 -!- prip [n=_prip@host50-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:07 prip [n=_prip@host50-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:11:08 -!- quotemstr__ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 12:11:44 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:45 stassats`: thanks, I compiled it and but it throws an error because of .ccl-init.lisp, here's the content of the init file and error http://paste.lisp.org/display/93867. 12:13:11 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:25 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-202.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:59 Early lisps looked quite painful compared to CL. 12:16:27 quotemstr: early *computers* were quite painful :-) 12:16:58 Lisp must have been a great step up from what was previously available, even though GC took a couple of hours. :-) 12:17:11 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:19 tfb:although no email, no web, no #lisp - imagine how much work you could get done! 12:17:33 (where for 'you' I mean 'me') 12:18:05 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:18:12 Why are macros expanded at evaluation time instead of when lambda or defun is called? 12:18:18 splittist: they had modems (the buffers of which taking a sizeble part of the memory ;-)), and they had time sharing (invented by McCarthy), and they had local messaging. 12:18:31 quotemstr: macros are expanded at macro expansion time. 12:18:49 quotemstr: this may occur at any time between and including input and execution. 12:19:15 splittist: well, there was mail from a long time ago 12:19:35 quotemstr: even in the case of an interpreter, macros may be expanded only once (or else each time it's executed, depend on the implementation). 12:19:36 but yes, less distractions I think 12:20:16 tfb, pjb: true, communication at a distance was an early feature of computer systems. I wonder what the first 'program' developed cooperatively by people who never met face to face was... 12:20:17 And more concentration. After all, people didn't have computers. Only big corporations and universities. So all programmers gathered together around THE computer :-) 12:20:19 pjb: Ah. So I was looking at unspecified behavior. 12:20:54 quotemstr: if you compile your function, it should be macroexpanded once for good. 12:21:06 quotemstr: cf. Minimal compilation in CLHS. 12:23:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-170-209.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:01 splittist: but I think the distractions were less overwhelming than they are now. I'm only typing this to avoid thinking about work :-) 12:27:35 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-106-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:27:59 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:28:01 Phew, all night hack session getting my site up with Weblocks. 12:33:50 how do I make a binary input stream from a list or vector? 12:34:35 gray-streams? 12:35:45 flexi-streams already able to do that 12:35:46 lukego: flexistreams make-in-memory-input-stream ? 12:37:01 I love living in this science fiction universe where I just type (require :flexistreams) at my listener and suddenly that function is available :) 12:37:45 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:48 you'd need to type :flexi-streams 12:38:12 flexi-streams is a bit slow, though 12:39:04 adeht: basically I want to `unpack' a vector 12:39:13 lukego: you can already do that 12:39:30 (unpack "H" #(1 2)) 12:39:58 oh :) 12:40:04 at first I did indeed use flexi-streams, but because it was slow I added my own `struct-stream-protocol' 12:41:05 wow that's some simple code 12:41:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:44:05 how about if I want to make several successive unpack's on a vector, with a moving cursor? 12:44:31 (pulling off ethernet header, ip header, tcp header, data) 12:45:45 maybe add your own struct-stream-protocol method that returns whatever reader/writer you want 12:51:21 e.g., have a struct that packs together a reader and a writer and a method for it that just returns them.. then use struct-stream-protocol on some vector, construct an instance of the reader/writer struct and pass that 12:52:14 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:53:40 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:53:54 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:25 oh, that's a nice idea 12:54:32 who are you, anyway? :) 12:55:12 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 12:56:01 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:57:22 -!- adu [n=ajr@pool-173-66-8-210.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 12:59:55 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 13:04:10 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:35 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:05:42 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:13 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:16 dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:13:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:20 rswarbrick [n=rupert@137.205.222.236] has joined #lisp 13:14:55 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A28CF.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:00 PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF70AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:12 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-88.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:17:34 adeht: any more words of wisdom before I add a fixlen-vector type? 13:18:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:20 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:38 Adlai: what does that mean? 13:20:07 Xach, what does what mean? 13:20:19 "l1sp.org needs more dwim"? 13:20:21 yes. 13:20:24 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-184.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:20:30 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:20:35 http://l1sp.org/cl/7.3 13:20:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:21:05 Adlai: that is a fine url 13:21:08 Blkt [n=user@160.80.129.176] has joined #lisp 13:21:11 hello 13:21:14 wewe 13:21:39 eh, lemme find which one was not doing what I meant. 13:22:27 lukego: go ahead :) that sounds useful.. if you want, you can fork the gist in github and share your stuff 13:24:18 G'morning all. 13:24:57 Adlai: so...what would you prefer? 13:25:25 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 13:26:47 -!- prip [n=_prip@host50-130-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:46 prip [n=_prip@host168-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 ah. Xach, I think http://l1sp.org/cl/17.3 is what was failing 13:28:56 Adlai: When? 13:29:09 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:13 Adlai: And what would 17.3 go to? 13:29:20 the Sequences Dictionary 13:29:37 Hmm, interesting. Yeah, that's bogus. I'll fix it. What does dwim.hu have to do with it? 13:29:51 I was just saying that it should be doing what I mean. 13:30:01 just playing on words >_> 13:30:06 hmm, it's missing multiple sections 13:30:09 i wonder what happened! 13:30:13 *Xach* fixes 13:30:22 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.3.245] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:29 Adlai: thanks for pointing it out 13:30:36 specbot doesn't know dictionary sections either 13:30:54 Xach, you're welcome. I'm sorry about the confusion. 13:31:10 I took my index from specbot 13:31:17 sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:31:29 Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-88.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:31:52 it'd be nice if the hyperspec's URLs followed some predictable pattern... 13:32:25 Adlai: I think the algorithm is documented. 13:32:26 other than "bits of a relevant symbol's name" 13:32:29 oh? 13:32:39 Adlai: Yes, I vaguely remember reading it. Don't know where, though. 13:32:55 Adlai: when Xach html-ises the 3rd draft of the ANSI spec it'll use 2.0-approved slugfiied urls... 13:33:19 shhh 13:33:29 stop stealing my thoughts! 13:33:59 it'd be nice to have a local tool for looking up these URLs... for example, I'm about 250ms away from l1sp.org, so these lookups aren't very quick (and slime-hyperspec-lookup doesn't do section numbers) 13:34:32 if you need them much, i can add it 13:34:51 I just look up a function in the same section and then go up one level 13:35:08 s/section/dictionary/ 13:35:31 wow, Common Lisp even has dictionaries! they aren't first-class, though... :D 13:36:21 *Xach* is ready to blame the LOOP of DOOM somehow 13:36:36 I was going to say 13:37:00 it all comes back to that 13:37:04 hm? 13:37:08 until then we were pure idealists 13:37:13 oh 13:37:13 and then I revealed the awful truth 13:37:53 Krystof, you unveiled LOOP !? 13:38:07 not just any LOOP 13:38:11 the LOOP of DOOM 13:38:28 hey, there's someone who might still think I'm a decent programmer 13:38:31 please no-one disabuse him 13:39:05 surely everyone has a septuply-nested skeleton somewhere in his closet 13:39:05 don't worry, I've seen your FIXMEs in the pcl source already. 13:39:29 what is the LOOP of DOOM though? 13:40:05 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:25 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:40 It's on lisppaste somewhere, isn't it? 13:40:51 yes 13:41:21 http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/lisppaste/clhs-lookup 13:41:58 spot the bug 13:42:20 *Adlai* blinks 13:43:08 Clearly, the bug is the use of a massively-nested loop construct. 13:43:53 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 13:44:47 http://xach.com/tmp/clhs-lookup-loopless-3.patch is my rewrite of it. i wonder if it actually works. 13:45:57 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-119-168.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:46:19 9+ (; 13:46:54 portable; potential numbers can't end with a sign 13:47:08 i think i would be less likely to write it like that today 13:47:13 that's from 2005, i think 13:48:12 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-88.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:11 I was trying to remember when I wrote the original 13:49:19 isn't that just a depth-first-traversal? 13:49:21 maybe sbcl 0.7.14 or so? 13:49:42 ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-76-217.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:17 xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 benny [n=benny@i577A8A86.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:32 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-234-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:38 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:59:22 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@137.205.222.236] has left #lisp 14:02:21 -!- Edward_ [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-88.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:18 djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:05 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:09:16 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-76-217.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:11:21 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:11:29 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.91] has joined #lisp 14:12:24 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:17:34 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:19:00 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:20:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:05 -!- Alexandr [n=Alexandr@unaffiliated/alexandr] has quit ["    (xchat 2.4.5  )"] 14:21:18 -!- reb` [n=user@72.14.228.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:22:06 reb` [n=user@72.14.228.129] has joined #lisp 14:22:53 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:44 xokres [i=ola@d01-0124b.kn.vutbr.cz] has joined #lisp 14:25:46 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-197.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:29:51 -!- ASau` [n=user@77.246.231.59] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93873 <- maybe this could work? (untested) 14:33:00 -!- xokres [i=ola@d01-0124b.kn.vutbr.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:21 so... is it defined by the standard that class-slots and slot-value-using-class works for structures? (not overriding, just calling) 14:44:43 on sbcl it works... but what can i expect anywhere else? 14:45:04 it doesn't work on xcl and abcl 14:45:22 and it's not defined 14:45:24 attila_lendvai: no it is not defined. 14:45:35 allegro also seems to work, except slot-definition-allocation 14:45:45 hrm, ok, thanks 14:45:48 attila_lendvai: none of the MOP stuff is in the standard (well, almost none) 14:45:57 then i'll need a more intrusive change in hu.dwim.serializer 14:47:27 Hrm... The SBCL filesystem stuff is even more broken for win32 than I thought it was. 14:47:58 win32 filesystems are pretty much totally different from unix, so it doesn't surprise me 14:48:30 the things that are similar don't work reliably on win32 14:50:00 allegro's disdain for logical pathnames makes me sad. 14:50:03 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.88] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 14:50:09 franz's, i suppose i should say. 14:50:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 14:51:19 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.135.24.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:42 specifically: "Many have found this restriction onerous. Because actual work is typically done on just a few platforms, forbidding characters such as an underscore (_), which in fact causes no problems on any popular platform, contributes nothing to actual portability and adds additional development rules whose purpose (to non-Lisp programmers and to many Lisp programmers) is obscure." 14:51:53 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:14 their documentation also doesn't mention the non-standard non-case-folding behavior. 14:53:31 lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:58 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.242.174] has left #lisp 14:54:13 nyef: thanks for writing up the tags documentation 14:54:40 froydnj: You're welcome. 14:55:07 Which reminds me, I'd like to add a new hook to sbcl to call for load-logical-pathname-translations. Can you suggest a good hook on which to model it? sb-ext:*module-provider-functions* maybe? 14:55:32 what do you want your hook to do? 14:55:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 Given a logical pathname host, establish translations for the host. 14:56:07 (Presumably.) 14:56:35 right. 14:56:50 Xach: autogeneration of pathname translations? 14:56:52 froydnj: right now sbcl just does nothing. i'd like to be able to get it to do something. 14:57:02 Xach: they didn't quite understand the point that logical pathnames are meant to be portable, did they? 14:57:15 -!- lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:57:22 so this would happen automagically when translating logical pathnames? (obviously I have missed some discussion) 14:57:24 or perhpaps, they didn't understand what portability is 14:57:36 froydnj: no. it would happen when explicitly calling load-logical-pathname-translations. 14:57:46 tfb: i guess this is a little-exercised area of standards compliance 14:57:48 tfb: portability to every generation of lisp machine OSes! 14:58:17 what could i do to make this more lispy? it's a fibonacci sequence function. http://paste.lisp.org/+20FN 14:58:18 *froydnj* looks up l-l-p-t, laughs 14:58:24 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:58:40 n1t0r: try writing it without setf 14:58:44 -!- claudia20100125 [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:19 n1t0r: um, just get rid of fn and all the setfs of it 14:59:21 Xach: ah, right. something like sb-ext:*module-provider-functions* seems like a good start. 14:59:30 n1t0r: it's completely spurious 14:59:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:59:37 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:59:41 n1t0r: hint: use CASE or COND 14:59:41 adeht: ok, thanks 14:59:52 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-237-2.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:58 n1t0r: and I don't see the point of f1 or f0 either 15:00:05 tfb: noted, thank you, i hadn't thought of that 15:00:16 n1t0r: http://fare.tunes.org/files/fun/fibonacci.lisp 15:00:18 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has joined #lisp 15:00:29 read that. it will take you on a pretty awesome journey 15:00:44 rahul: wtf :) 15:00:46 be sure to stretch your mind a bit first 15:00:53 you might pull something 15:00:58 rahul: ok, thanks, i'll take a look 15:01:04 thanks for the warning 15:02:01 (defun fast-fib (n) (matrix-element (matrix-expt '((0 1) (1 1)) n) 0 1)) 15:02:20 although the REALLY fast version is much longer and involves psetq :D 15:03:32 (defun fast-fib (n) (aref *fib-table* n)) 15:03:43 heh 15:03:45 -!- Blkt [n=user@160.80.129.176] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:52 true :) 15:04:35 rahul: by spurious, you mean that it's not lispy at all, and it's basically written c-style? 15:05:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 15:05:34 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:34 n1t0r: no, that it's garbage code 15:05:41 delete it and your code will function identically 15:06:04 rahul: I didn't know that expression (matrix power one), that's cool. 15:06:23 rahul: minus points for using lists for your matrix, though ;) 15:06:27 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:55 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:07:22 n1t0r: he is saying, replace (setf fn ) by everywhere, and then delete the (let ((fn 0)) as well. 15:07:43 froydnj: it's fare's, not mine! 15:07:47 n1t0r: furthermore, f0 and f1 are never assigned to, so you might as well replace them with their values. 15:08:00 anyway, I'm off to work 15:08:07 share and enjoy! 15:08:20 oh, ok, thanks, i thought he was saying the whole thing was garbage 15:08:30 have a good one 15:08:51 n1t0r: Well, it's a particularly slow way of doing it. 15:09:38 yeah, i guess i gotta start somewhere, but i'll keep that in mind 15:09:46 lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:26 ape2 [n=NICK@81.29.190.241] has joined #lisp 15:10:38 -!- ape2 [n=NICK@81.29.190.241] has left #lisp 15:11:52 Itanium seems like a dream and nightmare at the same time for compiler writers :-) 15:12:07 Just attended a lecture about its instruction set 15:12:08 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:12:26 Is it still being used? 15:12:44 trittweiler: so, when can we have sbcl backend for it? 15:14:10 n1t0r: Your method has exponential complexity. It is trivial to do it in linear time, and you can even do it in logarithmic time. 15:14:30 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:35 beach, the supercomputer in munich consists of 10.000 itanium2 processors 15:14:44 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 trittweiler: Wow! Impressive! 15:15:29 so maintenance revenue is safe to the next 5 years :-) 15:15:34 i thought itanium was dead 15:16:11 beach: ok, i'll do some research, thanks for the help 15:16:16 beach, Demosthenes: All the HP Unix systems use it 15:16:24 n1t0r: no problem. 15:16:53 -!- n1t0r [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:17:55 -!- niko [i=niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has left #lisp 15:22:30 Oh, neat. SBCL can successfully obtain a directory listing for a directory that does not exist. 15:22:42 DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has joined #lisp 15:22:58 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:20 Oh, and using probe-file as a test for directory existence is dubious at best. 15:25:04 claudia20100125 [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 15:29:05 nyef: how did you do that ? 15:29:32 Do what? 15:29:59 "obtain a directory listing for a directory that does not exist" 15:30:21 Oh. (directory #p"z:/doesnotexist/*.*") => NIL. 15:30:34 Which is wrong. 15:30:47 Per CLHS, it's supposed to signal a file-error. 15:31:32 Unless, as I said, it successfully obtains a directory listing for a directory that does not exist. 15:32:00 interestingly, clozure returns NIL as well 15:33:09 Also, this use of directory is the only standard method for determining if a directory exists. 15:33:12 at least it didn't find files in it. :P 15:33:25 Since probe-file isn't defined for directories, it's defined for files. 15:33:29 porcelina: Yes, there is that. 15:35:12 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:20 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:48 nyef: on every implementation I can access (directory #p"/does/not/exist/") => NIL. No :wild needed 15:39:34 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-47.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:39:48 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:41:46 -!- kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:42:26 -!- cupe [n=cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:39 cupe [n=cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 15:42:40 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:07 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:45:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:04 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 15:46:34 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:49 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 15:48:08 -!- blitz_` [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:18 blitz_` [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:47 nyef: the 'Exceptional Situations' section is not immediately crystal clear to me. Ignoring that, NIL is the list of files that are present in the file system have names matching pathspec 15:52:17 s/have/that have/ 15:54:25 Joreji_ [n=thomas@75-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:54:36 -!- xan [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 15:55:21 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:49 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-31-206.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:55 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:16 fe[nl]ix: but on some implementations (directory "/path/that/does/exist/") is *also* nil 16:01:44 ejs [n=eugen@114-57-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:46 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:21 i only ever get nil when the directory doesn't exist. 16:02:28 if it exists but is empty i get the name of the directory back 16:03:35 -!- pjb [n=t@228.Red-79-149-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:51 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:04:30 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:04:38 Blkt [n=user@160.80.129.176] has joined #lisp 16:07:01 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:07:48 Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 16:08:38 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:03 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7559b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:20 -!- kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:10:00 porcelina: not on CCL for instance 16:10:28 (directory #p"/") -> nil 16:10:43 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:25 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-60-47.dialup.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:12:38 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["home"] 16:13:03 konr [n=user@189.0.27.51] has joined #lisp 16:17:22 Okay, the conclusion I've come to is that I need to spend some time thinking about this, probably over the next week. 16:17:32 But not now, as I'm getting ready to go out. 16:18:23 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:19:59 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:07 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 16:21:32 -!- partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:56 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:58 -!- sunwukong [n=vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["bye"] 16:25:37 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:25:51 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-156-238-202.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:08 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:26:19 lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:51 Axius [n=ghi@109.97.46.77] has joined #lisp 16:28:41 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:29:33 Right, I'm off. 16:32:19 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.34.236] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 -!- Axius [n=ghi@109.97.46.77] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:32:31 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:33:28 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:01 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 16:35:11 Hmm, where is the SB-EXT package export list defined? 16:37:40 package-data-list.lisp-expr 16:38:00 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-76-217.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:38:14 Thanks. 16:38:23 form of doom, beware. 16:38:31 *Xach* will fear no evil 16:39:05 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 16:39:08 -!- Joreji_ [n=thomas@75-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:36 njohan [n=njohan@135-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has joined #lisp 16:41:07 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:35 -!- njohan [n=njohan@135-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:30 njohan [n=njohan@135-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has joined #lisp 16:43:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:43:13 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 16:43:23 hi. if I would like to have a method that takes two objects, how do I do? I tried different versions of (defmethod ((shape Rectangle shape Cicle)) (format t "test")) 16:46:18 njohan: each element in the argument list represents an argument (except for &optional, &key, etc). 16:47:16 konr` [n=user@189.98.71.143] has joined #lisp 16:48:36 pkhuong: I am very new to this and do not really understand. Say that I have two instances of two different classes, Rectangle and Shape,, how would I define a method that takes those two "classes@ as arguments 16:49:00 njohan: (defmethod test ((shape1 rectangle) (shape2 circle)) (format t "test")) 16:49:20 pkhuong: just (defmethod something ((shape1 shape2)) (format t "test")) 16:50:37 dlowe: OK. I thought I tried that one, but I didn't work... but I guess I have to sit down again and try to figure out why,, I trust you so I will take that as my blueprint 16:51:10 dlowe, pkhuong: thanks for the help, have a good evening. 16:52:40 milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.4] has joined #lisp 16:53:18 njohan: there are some good books you can review to get the syntax 16:53:26 http://l1sp.org/pcl/defmethod for example 16:55:00 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:30 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:01 Xach: Thanks for the tip. Lisp is pretty hard to get into because of the error messages I think, is there a better way than to run slime in emacs? I mean for more newb-friendly error messages 16:57:36 njohan: I think it's worth learning how to read them. 16:58:19 Xach: Okay, you are probably correct, I guess the more I learn the more they will make sense. When I learn the lingua of lisp 16:58:23 njohan: Well, it's definitely worth learning how to write correct syntax in the first place. The error messages you get from malformed lambda lists or slot lists or things like that will be pretty obscure. 16:58:53 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 16:59:03 I have a question about type inference 16:59:17 njohan: recently someone had a weird error message because they wrote (defclass foo () (bar :initform :bar :initarg 42))...the real problem is a little hard to spot. 16:59:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/93883 16:59:36 Well it's most often an error stemming from destructuring-bind, and the error messages assume the reader is knowledgeable about lambda-list syntax :-) 16:59:38 sorry, i had that backwards: :initarg :bar :initform 42 17:00:07 how come, in FIND-PRIME, that SBCL won't infer that (LABELS PRIME) is returning an (INTEGER 0 1000000000)? 17:00:14 Xach: looks nice to me :) what was the problem 17:00:14 in my case, it says REAL 17:00:14 njohan, That said, feel free to paste error messages you find cryptic. Perhaps something can be done about it. 17:00:51 trittweiler: I sometimes wish user macros did not defer to things like d-b for error checking, but it certainly makes the macro get much larger to give useful, explicit syntax error messages. 17:01:03 trittweiler: thanks, I will try to become a bit better, and read a bit more,, so my questions are not totally newby,, but I am sure I will be back,,, thank for the help :) 17:01:38 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 17:01:52 nowhere_man: (array (integer 0 1000000000) *) means "an array of any number of dimensions" 17:01:54 Xach, I dream about a clhs-style ebnf parser that works on lists and gives good error messages. 17:02:07 nowhere_man: maybe you meant (array (integer 0 ...) (*))? 17:02:10 Thanks for the help guys, I wish you all a great day 17:02:15 -!- njohan [n=njohan@135-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has left #lisp 17:02:20 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:02:26 Xach, indeed, I couldn't figure why it's not a vector, thanks 17:02:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 17:02:44 nowhere_man: no problem. i have made that mistake more than a couple times myself, so now it's burned in my mind. 17:03:06 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:22 nowhere_man, (speed 3) (safety 1) in most cases won't give you mentionable speed up, but it may well give you data corruption 17:03:25 redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:03:35 nowhere_man, sorry I meant (safety 0) over (safety 1) 17:03:57 rpg: Did the date for the january meeting change? 17:04:12 Xach: No. It just was reinforced ;-) 17:04:18 I guess not! Sorry I got that wrong on the calendar. 17:04:25 trittweiler: you mean I can safely (!) go from (safety 0) to (safety 1) without losing much speed? 17:04:39 nowhere_man, Yes 17:06:24 nowhere_man, Also the explicit (integer 0 1e10) will rather harm than do good, I could imagine. Rather use non-negative-fixnum which is (and fixnum unsigned-byte) 17:07:00 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:17 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:20 (integer 0 1e10) is OK if your implementation is any good 17:08:17 (if you write 1e10 out as an integer, of course) 17:08:20 (ccl and sbcl and probably cmucl are ok in this repsect) 17:08:45 I cannot think of an advantage over non-negative-fixnum; what would that be? 17:08:54 the word "fixnum" in the name 17:09:18 that just looks like bad compilation time due to interval arithmetic 17:09:51 that and the explicit INTEGER array will presumably be somewhat smaller on 64-bit platforms 17:10:03 Axius [n=ghi@109.97.46.77] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 (responding to Xach with `that'; Xach is pointing out that 1e10 may not *be* a fixnum) 17:10:27 -!- konr [n=user@189.0.27.51] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:10:42 -!- Axius [n=ghi@109.97.46.77] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:34 In that case he should upgrade to (unsigned-byte 32), and do modular arithmetic properly 17:12:09 still, shouldn't SBCL correctly infer that the result of a function doing (elt primes index) is the element type of the primes array? 17:12:23 or is there something in my code that prevents that? 17:13:05 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:17 nowhere_man: instead of (round (/ (+ start end) 2)), use (truncate (+ start end) 2) 17:15:34 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:16:24 (integer 0 1r10) 17:18:58 would someone mind redditting my announcement of els2010 speakers to /r/lisp? 17:19:36 oh, the karma i'll score! 17:20:21 thanks :-) 17:20:27 you can take it out of my royalties 17:22:13 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 17:22:21 nowhere_man: also, using AREF instead of ELT seems to work 17:22:53 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:43 -!- konr` [n=user@189.98.71.143] has left #lisp 17:25:54 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-153.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:26:38 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:58 froydnj: thanks, I had tried it before, but it didn't work 17:26:58 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.181.191] has joined #lisp 17:27:37 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:28:34 Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has joined #lisp 17:31:20 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:28 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:30 asn [n=110@gentoo/developer/asn] has joined #lisp 17:32:19 Hey, can someone point me to a couple lispy stuff (which I unfortunately don't know) to implement this: http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Python/comp.lang.python/2005-04/msg01295.html ? (except basic stuff like loop) 17:33:27 -!- ejs [n=eugen@114-57-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:36 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.34.236] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:36:55 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit ["Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue."] 17:37:09 -!- Blkt [n=user@160.80.129.176] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:38:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:37 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:05 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-197.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:11 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:26 Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:44:44 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 17:45:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:49 SBCL's manual says that as of 0.8.9, all platforms except x86 don't have GenGC 17:45:51 TR2N [i=email@89-180-208-232.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 17:45:54 is that still true? 17:45:57 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:15 ppc has a generational collector 17:47:51 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:48:08 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:52 what is the reason for other archs not th have that GC? 17:49:30 they didn't have it to start with and no-one's done the work to make them have it 17:49:35 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:49:48 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:57 is it that hard to port it from x86/ppc, or isn't just anyone interested in doing it? 17:51:20 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.34.236] has joined #lisp 17:52:32 I don't think it's particularly hard; it would be easy to give it to sparc, I think 17:52:43 it would be a good way to learn about allocators and gcs 17:52:53 I don't think anyone actually needs it very much, though 17:53:05 ejs [n=eugen@114-57-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:07 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:35 Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:47 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:59:15 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 17:59:22 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:00:01 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 18:00:08 Tristam [n=Tristam@cpe-72-226-127-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:55 -!- asn [n=110@gentoo/developer/asn] has left #lisp 18:01:10 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 18:07:34 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:27 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:33 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:09:07 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:10:19 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:28 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:50 jfm3 [n=user@216.156.98.230.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:17 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:12:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:34 deathdefineslife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:13:25 -!- deathdefineslife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 18:13:27 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.34.236] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:13:41 sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:14:18 hm, is there any lisp environment ported to the iphone? (I'd like to be able to develop on the iphone) 18:15:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@114-57-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:00 nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.181.191] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:17:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:18:02 Krystof: yes, it's not the cross-compiler, but the grovel stuff that is probably the culprit 18:18:33 like drscheme or something would be awesome 18:18:57 sayyestolife: Apple explicitly forbids languages or interpreters 18:19:15 ejs [n=eugen@114-57-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:16 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:20:37 sayyestolife: gambit-c ;) 18:23:11 dlowe what, really?! 18:23:51 they don't allow language runtimes on the iphone. 18:24:21 http://mcdevzone.com/2008/03/07/iphone-sdk-restrictions/ 18:25:19 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net 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irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- dym [n=dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- kom_ [n=el@brain.cx] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- rlonstei1 [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- Pepe_ [n=ppjet@mna75-4-82-225-76-148.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- setheus [n=setheus@70.116.140.134] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:25:20 -!- erg [n=erg@69.93.127.154] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:32 but I've jailbreaked my iphone :) 18:26:44 gz [n=gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 dlowe: isn't dumping an executable with no reader access enough to cover that, though? 18:27:42 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:29 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:36 sykopomp: hard to tell. Apple's inconsistency over what is acceptable is well documented 18:32:14 -!- Kaviado [n=jack@99-58-1-192.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:32:32 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 tensorpudding [n=user@99.148.206.229] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 guaqua [i=gua@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 austinh [n=austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-254-158.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 pok_ [n=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 aking [n=aking@67.23.13.119] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 kuwabara2 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peer)] 18:43:46 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.91] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 18:46:10 alec_ [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:54 gmdjm1959 [n=gmdjm195@ip98-180-23-122.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:26 snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:49:13 ejs [n=eugen@114-57-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:32 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:49:57 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:50:39 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:54 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:52:54 Axius [n=ghi@92.82.67.32] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 -!- alec_ is now known as alec 18:55:09 -!- snorble is now known as snorble_ 18:55:41 -!- snorble_ is now known as snorble 18:57:56 And people wonder why I refuse to buy an iPhone. 18:58:18 those n900s look pretty good 18:58:19 I don't wonder. 18:58:46 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 18:59:19 On a decent trip, my phone was just as useful for navigation, messaging, web browsing, email checking, tweeting, talking, and so on as the iPhone everyone else had, plus it saved the day as a USB mass storage device and had reception when everyone else's jammed the local tubes. 18:59:26 Yet the iPhone is somehow better. Dear god, why? 18:59:51 quotemstr: what phone do you have? :P 18:59:59 One that runs Lisp, hopefully! 19:00:10 quotemstr: That would probably have made a fine twit. 19:00:12 Oh, and some people were touting the ability of some application to save its state so some task could be resumed where it was left off --- all I said was that *every* application on my phone can do that. It's called multitasking. Welcome to 1980. 19:00:16 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:24 The Pre. I believe I can compile SBCL for it. :-) 19:00:48 The N900 looks quite interesting too. 19:00:51 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 I'm just not interested in renting a computer. I prefer owning them. 19:01:22 so I tend to stay away from apple's stuff in general :\ 19:01:38 sykopomp: Their conventional computers aren't bad. 19:01:44 It's the mobile stuff that's irksome. 19:02:14 my brother has an n900; i'm quite jealous. it's sort of large, but it's definitely very neat. 19:02:17 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:42 -!- ejs [n=eugen@114-57-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:02:43 I also hate touchscreens. 19:02:43 Fade: the sysadmin here at work has one. He lounges around the office doing his job through his phone in a little zoomable terminal that's actually really readable :\ 19:03:03 I want real keys. Even members keys are better than imaginary rectangles on a flat unresponsive screen. 19:03:05 yeah, the maemo stuff is very very cool. 19:03:09 s/members/membrane/ 19:03:10 mostly because it's just linux. 19:03:17 no weird java runtime coating everything 19:03:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:03:25 you can run software written in any language. 19:03:26 etc. 19:03:26 if you can compile it for ARM linux, you can run it. 19:03:28 woo 19:03:44 Does Maomo use X11? 19:04:11 this guy writes his python/perl/whatever admin scripts right in his phone :| 19:04:14 quotemstr: I think so 19:04:25 quotemstr: it does 19:04:30 Good. 19:04:40 the bad thing about the n900 is the price :\ 19:04:47 and it's large and heavy. 19:04:50 I'm glad to see that people have seen through the "X11 is the devil, let's write directly to the framebuffer" mentality. 19:04:52 But what about Lisp? 19:04:56 it's not -that- large. 19:05:05 Xach: that's the thing. You can run lisp on it, without any worries whatsoever. 19:05:05 Xach: clisp for certain. 19:05:08 I like Lisp. 19:05:17 I dunno who has an arm targeted lisp compiler. 19:05:30 if you can run it on arm linux, you can run it on the n900. It would be pretty awesome to just code little clisp apps for it :) 19:05:30 clisp, ecl are feasible. 19:05:46 *Fade* nods 19:06:15 oh right, and you're not stuck with a particular provider. 19:06:17 \o/ 19:06:45 such as AT&T, or Sprint, which is even worse >_> 19:07:15 Hrm, I guess SBCL doesn't support ARM after all. 19:08:18 I believe clisp and ecl are the only viable common lisp environments on arm, at the moment. 19:10:10 *drewc* is happy with his android phone 19:10:28 and it's not even one of the cool new ones. 19:11:02 My phone is pretty awesome. It fits in my pocket, and it makes _phone calls_ 19:11:11 can you imagine? Killer feature for a phone, imo. 19:11:27 it has a little calendar, too, and makes epic sci fi sounds when I open and close it. 19:11:43 sykopomp: does it let you administer your servers 20miles offshore? 19:12:00 cause that's the only reason i have a fancy phone. 19:12:13 from 20 miles* 19:12:21 (my servers are all inshore) 19:12:36 do you have a computer with you 20 miles offshore, other than your phone? :P 19:12:52 yes 19:13:11 but, i'd prefer not to start it up 19:13:16 you shut it down? 19:13:17 O.o 19:13:47 indeed... it may seem infinite to you lubbers, but electricity is a valuable resource. 19:14:15 make your ferret run on a little wheel or something :D 19:15:07 ferret food is expensive too, and hard to get away from major cities ;) 19:15:15 phf [n=user@pool-96-227-154-60.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:40 -!- phf [n=user@pool-96-227-154-60.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:15:52 my android, OTOH, happily charges with the smallest of solar panels, and will fit in my pocket when hiking around some anchorage. 19:16:21 the ferrets didn't take well to the solar panel... they didn't like having it plugged it.... 19:16:27 in 19:16:48 you just gotta be gentle and use copious amounts of KY 19:16:57 *sykopomp* goes back to work. 19:17:13 Adlai: fixed 19:17:14 nice. 19:18:26 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet1901.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:19:07 Can you get internet to your laptop through your n900 linux/clisp/ecl box? 19:19:25 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-210.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:27 Without having to root it, as you would an Android? 19:21:20 Are any of the core SBCL developers Mac users? 19:22:44 gigamonkey: A link I have to your site broke recently... 19:22:54 (well, it might have broken a long time ago) 19:23:01 gigamonkey: A couple. 19:23:03 Are the urls sensitive to the time the aritcle was edited? 19:23:43 Xach: they shouldn't be. They might, however, be sensitive to changes of the timezone on the box. 19:23:55 I vaguely recall the tech.coop move changing some urls. 19:24:01 I realize how lame that is. 19:24:04 ok 19:24:09 I could also be wrong about it. 19:24:16 Send me the link, if you still have it handy. 19:24:27 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2007/07/27/compiling-queries-without-eval.html 19:24:31 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-106-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:24:36 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2007/07/28/compiling-queries-without-eval.html works 19:24:53 -!- PassingStranger [n=Horst@p54BF70AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:18 Is it possible you got the broken link a long time ago. 19:25:54 -!- lucindo [n=user@200-221-128-56.corp.uolinc.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:56 My vague recollection, coming back to me now, is that it used to be dependent on the time zone on the box and then I fixed it to always be based on California time, regardless of where the box is. 19:27:08 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has quit [Read error: 61 (Connection refused)] 19:27:18 drewc: humph. My android phone seems far inferior as email reader to my venerable old Treo 755p.... 19:27:42 Mmmmm. No sign of any code to nail down the timezone. 19:27:49 rpg: gmail on the android WFM 19:28:01 drewc: the recent tech.coop VPS box maintenance wouldn't have changed the local timezone would it? 19:28:14 -!- Axius [n=ghi@92.82.67.32] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:28:21 drewc: My employers not unreasonably don't want google to own all of their email correspondence.... 19:28:43 rpg: ... yet 19:29:01 rpg: what's the topic for tonight? 19:29:19 splittist: I forget --- do the Chinese get it first, and does it go to Google from there, or vice versa? 19:29:23 rpg: fair enough.... so you guys laid your own fiber worldwide? 19:29:47 hmmm, I just had a long process (7 hours) terminate and it says it only spent 13,440 milliseconds (13 seconds) in GC. 19:29:54 sounds too low? 19:30:06 not necessarily 19:30:18 sykopomp: Mixed topics, but probably mostly about plans for the future. Looks like Mikel Evins in February... 19:30:32 cpu-intensive lisp programs don't have to cons like mad if you write them carefully 19:30:44 13/7x60x60 19:30:59 *Xach* wonders about adding glossary redirects 19:31:22 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:25 rpg: I may skip out tonight, but I'm going to try and talk some coworkers into coming along next time :) 19:34:35 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:34:49 google sucks; everytime i use the gmail web interface i see some creepily relevant ads, and one ad for Jane's Capital 19:34:57 sykopomp: if you do, there may be no next time... 19:35:29 rpg: D: 19:35:54 are things going that badly? :| 19:36:10 sykopomp: I'm hearing nothing but regrets for tonight. 19:36:26 If I go there alone, the TC lispers are done as far as I'm concerned. 19:36:39 sorry i tweeted it wrong :( 19:36:41 I guess you can guilt-trip me into showing up :| 19:36:42 that was probably the problem. 19:37:03 Xach: More like unable to get a speaker for this month + horrible icy weather. 19:37:17 Plus severe organizer burn-out. 19:37:22 but there's not really any topic for tonight, so it seems kind of pointless to show up for something that may as well happen over the ML 19:37:25 But rpg is going to be there, signing copies of "Patterns of Software"! 19:37:47 sykopomp: except that it's not happening over the ML. 19:38:00 The ML is me and an echo chamber. 19:38:59 sykopomp: after all, the talks are pointless to show up for something that may as well happen over YouTube... 19:40:38 sykopomp: My feeling is that if I'm going to be left to sit in a room myself for a meeting, that's the last meeting I will organize. 19:41:14 rpg: sometimes, you just gotta cancel :\ 19:42:11 -!- DrunkTomato [n=DEDULO@ext-gw.wellcom.tomsk.ru] has quit [] 19:42:23 sykopomp: seems like if the group requires a formal talk, and sitting around chatting over a few beers isn't enough, but the group doesn't supply volunteers for talks, then the group isn't sustainable. 19:42:40 sykopomp: I think we either need to come to a willingness to have the group be at least partially sociable, or fold. 19:43:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:57 or someone else needs to step in and arrange some talks. 19:44:56 sykopomp: at any rate, if no one shows up to have a pint with me, I'm done... 19:45:11 but I like TCL :(( 19:45:45 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.34.236] has joined #lisp 19:46:42 not enough to come to it. 19:46:59 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.34.236] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:25 rpg: I agree, the talk is a formality.. the real reason for a lisp meetup is to talk lisp with real live hackers! 19:47:39 (and beer) 19:47:49 I don't even drink :( 19:48:00 rpg: I guess I can come up with a discussion that might be interesting. 19:48:50 sykopomp: well, you can bring some cocaine if you share with the rest of the class :P 19:49:00 :P 19:49:25 -!- jfm3 [n=user@216.156.98.230.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:40 drewc, and you complain about ferret food being expensive? 19:49:54 Xach, thank you for fixing that! 19:50:17 drewc: Right. I can't imagine many places besides Cambridge, MA that can manage a formal, talk-centric lisp user group on a monthly basis. /Maybe/ the bay area.... 19:50:29 -!- dv_ [n=dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:51:08 rpg: we almost always had a speaker at vanlisp's, but a few times we just got together for drinks... or it was a very informal 'here's something cool i'm doing' presentation 19:51:20 http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/constituent_trait 19:51:25 drewc: right... 19:51:33 oops! 19:51:34 http://www.lispworks.com/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#constituent_trait 19:51:36 that's not right. 19:51:37 404 19:52:03 doing glossary items is somewhat difficult 19:52:04 Xach, now that it does what _I_ mean, it needs to do what _you_ mean too! 19:52:35 drewc: fixed 19:52:42 I appreciate numerus canonicalization 19:53:12 Xach: confirmed.. cool! 19:53:15 Xach, neat. 19:53:39 I _would_ appreciate if someone also handles numerus canonicalization 19:53:49 so the next time you want to tell someone about a spreadable argument list designator... 19:54:15 http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/spreadable_argument_list_designator is so short and easy to type! 19:54:24 tcr, what do you mean? 19:54:26 we should add l1sp to specbot 19:54:29 drewc: I envy your group's ability to get people to actually talk. I haven't been able to extract much in the way of volunteers to speak. 19:54:39 drewc: Hence my burnout. 19:54:40 rpg: Fare is perpetually on the hunt for speakers 19:54:42 slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:50 Xach: would spreadable-argument-list-designator be lispier/webier? 19:54:56 Adlai: You get a correct url even for plural words 19:55:35 splittist: i think converting outright spaces to underscores is reasonable. see also wikipedia. 19:55:41 oh. hmm. 19:55:45 splittist: using dashes implies that they're symbols, to me. 19:55:52 rpg: I have to say that billc was the one who made these things happen... he was in constant contact with the members of the group as well ot a lot of other lispers. If any lisper came to town, or anywhere near (portland and seattle come to mind), he'd convince them to come up and present something. 19:56:12 Xach: OK. I hadn't thought of making the distinction with symbols. 19:56:19 Adlai: For example, the docstring of sequence-iterators:validate-bounding-indices talks about /bounding indices/, that should be crosslinked to bounding index 19:56:48 right 19:56:56 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:24 drewc: We have had a few people stand up, but I think we need to have a larger pool or make the full O(1 hour) talk no longer be the rule for our meetings. 19:57:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:58:36 rpg: In munich I also have no luck to get other people to do talks 19:58:42 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit ["be back later"] 19:59:09 ejs [n=eugen@109-167-15-164.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:59:11 rpg: it should primarily be a social thing IMO... you can watch talks on youtube, but you can't buy a guy a pint on IRC. 19:59:18 lighting talks are a good idea 19:59:27 it's only a paypal away! 19:59:29 which is kind of sad because _I_ still have a few topics to talk about, but constantly inviting people for my one-man-show has an awkward feeling 19:59:50 FWIW, I think it's fine if the group is substantially social, but if our community isn't willing to attend a substantially social group, I'm not willing to push it uphill by myself. 19:59:59 s/willing/able/ 20:00:29 rpg: I remember that one meeting where there were only like 5 of us. The FFI talk. That was pretty nice and casual. 20:00:43 rpg: yeah, don't burn yourself out on it... it's not worth trying to force it. 20:00:49 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:25 the smallest lispvan we had was 3 or 4 people and it was still well worth going to. 20:01:33 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:01:48 anton_v [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 20:01:50 tfb: in your days as a physicist, did you ever run into Ray d'Inverno 20:01:57 yes 20:01:58 tcr: Similarly. I've been working on CL-JSON some, which I think is an interesting cross-language RPC framework. would like to talk about it with some interested lispers, but it feels funny doign a one-man show. 20:02:30 Krystof: he was at Southampton when I was a (failing...) PhD student 20:02:59 ah, were you there? 20:03:03 rpg: you should talk about cl-json tonight. I have some hate to spread around about it. 20:03:08 cool. His son is my Head of Department 20:03:13 actually, I have plenty of hate to spread around about the JSON situation in CL :P 20:03:16 yes. he taught me Lisp in fact :-) 20:03:26 sykopomp: interesting.... 20:03:29 yeah, we had a bit of a weird conversation when I met him 20:03:35 Oh, cool, is he a physics person as well? 20:03:38 "oh, you're a lisp hacker" "oh, you're a church musician" 20:03:44 tfb: no, I'm a computer scientist these days 20:03:56 "I learnt General Relativity from your book" 20:03:56 rpg: I recently spent a while working on something to hook up lisp to CouchDB (including writing a native view server) 20:04:13 (only I said that; Ray didn't learn GR from my book, obviously :) 20:04:15 and I basically ended up headdesking with every JSON library I tried (well, yason and cl-json) 20:04:29 Krystof: sorry must go help stepson with maths... 20:04:31 GR and Time Travel... 20:04:46 sykopomp: I have been looking for ages to find an RPC framework to use from CL, and they all seem suboptimal.... XMLRPC requires a web server (and is horrible) and none of the CORBA things ever took off. 20:05:47 sykopomp: but if I'm guilting you into turning out for tc-lispers, let's save it for there. I think I may have improved CL-JSON some... 20:06:11 rpg: I guess I'll have to show up tonight :P 20:06:21 I'm up for bringing internet fights into meatspace >:D 20:06:49 hah 20:06:59 sykopomp: and if you have a better method for calling into/out from CL to other languages, I'd be really excited to hear it! 20:07:08 'tis a shame I don't have a ride to Boston or I'd go to Boston Lisp tonight 20:07:19 ianmcorvidae: hah. 20:07:31 ianmcorvidae: try talking marco into not being a flake 20:07:31 >_> 20:07:36 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet1901.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:07:41 what, like he has a car? 20:07:52 good point :\ 20:08:04 I should make a student group, get Hampshire to pay for it :P 20:08:06 are you gonna guilt trip me into moving back to MA to give you rides now? :P 20:08:13 XD nah 20:08:14 hahaha 20:08:25 actually, you might be able to talk Lee into making it legitimate. 20:08:29 please, let's guilt trip sykopomp only one at a time 20:08:32 then you can just take one of the hampshire vans. 20:08:38 oh yeah, true that 20:09:01 so I just have to talk Lee into not being (as much of) a flake :P 20:09:19 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:54 the boston meetings were always so awkward, anyway :< 20:10:10 i think you mean super-fun! 20:10:13 I like that about the TCL meetings, they're pretty unintimidating and feel more homey. 20:10:15 that they were, but if we flooded them with Hampshire people that would change :P 20:10:26 Xach: the boston meeting was terrifying. 20:10:30 except the first one I went to 20:10:35 Xach: well, that one time we went to dinner was fun, but other than that... bit intimidating 20:10:40 I have never made it to the big boston meetings... they seem like a lot of fun! 20:10:48 that one was awesome. We got to sit around and have dinner and talk about cool things. 20:10:55 that was good 20:10:58 yeah 20:11:02 I still have excellent associations with Mary Chung :P 20:11:08 (i was definately at some of the pre-organised-meeting meetings... we just called them piss-ups ;)) 20:11:10 drewc: Sail around to Boston, would you? 20:11:11 ('course ILC reinforced that pretty well too) 20:11:12 and we got to be like "Holy shit" at certain old symbolics people :P 20:11:22 Xach: long way from here! 20:13:21 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:13 Actually, if you're going to sail around, sail all the way to Portland. 20:14:30 The Old Port's nicer for hanging out. 20:15:16 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:18 rares [n=rares@174-26-90-76.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:23 how many Portlands do you guys have? 20:15:37 koning_r1bot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has joined #lisp 20:15:44 *drewc* was thinking it's a lot closer to Portland than to Boston! 20:16:11 *Xach* is at the original and best Portland 20:16:35 A Portland i don't have to hate... interesting... 20:16:40 *austinh* is happy with the other Portland. 20:17:10 We have many food carts and fine breweries. 20:17:11 I'm sure the other Portland is ok 20:17:14 Oregon?... 20:17:26 *drewc* gives austinh a dirtly look and clutches his whitecaps fc scarf. 20:17:41 I get to Cambridge fairly frequently (three times a year or so) but I never seem to be in synch with the lisp meetings. 20:18:10 Xach: there is a fierce rivaly between Vancouver and Portland, Or in Soccer, we even sing songs about how we hate them :) 20:18:35 *austinh* is oblivious to said rivalry 20:18:51 drewc: you could go the long way round to the other Portland and stop off in South Africa for the WC 20:18:57 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DsIl8vs4mU&feature=related 20:19:07 splittist: what a dream that would be! 20:20:16 drewc: That's a catchy tune. 20:20:25 A couple of years to work your way down the east coast in time for Brazil 2014... 20:20:40 it's no "alt for norge"... 20:21:02 austinh: unfortunately, portland actually won the cascadia cup this year, so we can't sing the '33 years, fuck all!' bit anymore... 20:21:22 'one week, fuck all!' didn't have the same ring. 20:21:52 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-105-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 (and this all stays on the pitch... the timbers army are an excellent group of supporters and Portland is a great footie town) 20:21:58 rpg, sykopomp: you were talking about JSON a bit back. 20:22:28 gigamonkey: Yes. Need to be able to have GUI components in other languages that call into Lisp. 20:22:30 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:40 Are you working on cl-json or just using it? 20:22:52 I've been rolling my own JSON in/out routines. 20:22:58 *sykopomp* ran away from cl-json in favor of yason, but that wasn't any better. 20:23:09 gigamonkey: an efficient json parser would be nice :| 20:23:15 gigamonkey: I did a bunch of patches for CL-JSON, specifically JSON-RPC. 20:23:26 could one not just use the reader and pretty printer for jason? 20:23:30 sykopomp: define efficient? 20:23:41 gigamonkey: not slow 20:23:49 :) 20:23:54 Do you have any benchmark docs? 20:23:58 I was accidentally in munich during the last soccer fest. 20:24:04 I have a parser that I generated wyth my parser framework. 20:24:14 you could compare performance to some of the C-based parsers. 20:24:28 I think that's more along the lines of what I'd want for my view server. 20:24:33 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:48 gigamonkey: you have a parser framework? 20:24:52 yeah. 20:24:59 joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:14 -!- joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:25:21 It's a bit manky in some respects but it works. Based on the META-II paper without all the reader macros. 20:25:43 nice... that's the part i didn't like about META 20:25:48 is it available publically? 20:25:51 paste: url 20:25:56 joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:56 *drewc* is playing with parsers 20:26:01 -!- joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:26:16 joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:20 gigamonkey: lisppaste is not entirely functional AFAIK, because of the +R 20:26:20 *sykopomp* goes back to work. 20:26:24 lisppaste: url? 20:26:26 -!- joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:32 joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:39 yeah, doesn't respond. 20:26:46 set the channel -R for awhile and see if we get attacked again. 20:26:47 -!- joshe1 [n=joshe@c-76-105-169-123.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:01 -!- drewc is now known as lispaste 20:27:16 gigamonkey: Direct your browser to http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 20:27:19 -!- lispaste is now known as drewc 20:27:49 xyzzyz [i=dodek@sh.8px.pl] has joined #lisp 20:28:32 Hmmmm. Here's my paste. Didn't seem to be announced. http://paste.lisp.org/display/93896 20:28:47 -!- drewc is now known as lispaste 20:28:55 gigamonkey has pasted http://paste.lisp.org/display/93896 20:28:59 -!- lispaste is now known as drewc 20:29:05 heh. 20:29:08 haha 20:29:30 drewc just made some kind of play in the Turing Test, I'm not sure in which direction. 20:29:57 i'm sure i'm not the first guy to cheat on a test.... :D 20:30:04 -!- PuffTheMagic_ is now known as PuffTheMagic 20:30:14 drewc: no, that was James T Kirk 20:30:31 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:37 :D 20:32:04 gigamonkey: looks nice, clean and simple. 20:32:33 *drewc* is attempting to write a parsec-alike 20:32:36 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@88.159.108.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:49 Krystof, could you -R so lisppaste and specbot can talk? 20:33:00 gigamonkey: are you going to release it? 20:33:22 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:31 A parser for Things is a function from Strings to Lists of Pairs of Strings and Things! 20:33:49 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 20:34:06 -!- drewc has set mode -R 20:34:18 clhs * 20:34:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_st.htm 20:34:23 lisppaste: url? 20:34:23 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 20:34:24 -!- levente_meszaros [n=levente_@apn-94-44-41-9.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:34:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 20:34:39 Adlai: done 20:34:49 ah, thank you 20:35:00 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 20:35:05 -!- xyzzyz is now known as Dodek 20:35:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 20:35:44 gigamonkey: I think sykopomp wanted better parser performance; hasn't been a big issue for me because not sending very large packages yet. 20:36:52 Yeah, I haven't had any reason to benchmark my parser yet. 20:37:27 jsfb [n=jsfb@96.241.6.67] has joined #lisp 20:37:28 rpg: a couchdb view server involves very fast, repeated encoding/decoding of json :\ 20:37:59 sykopomp: ah. that makes sense. Doing rpc over sockets, in my cases, has not. 20:38:20 sykopomp: the win of using sockets versus http is already huge! ;-) 20:38:35 view servers are over stdin/stdout. 20:38:43 there's no http involved here. 20:40:01 sykopomp: so do you have some large json files laying around I can try parsing? 20:40:05 bipt` [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:05 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:40:43 Also my parser framework is currently set up to parse from strings, not streams, which makes it suboptimal for parsing very large documents. 20:41:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 20:42:03 gigamonkey: not right now. I can look for it later before I get fired for IRCing too much :P 20:43:28 Xach: by the way, I remember reading a discussion at some point about the merits of let vs let*, with some people arguing that we should always just use let*. I think you were involved in it. Ring a bell? Google fails me. 20:43:40 sykopomp: I have firefox talking to cl and AFAICT FF can't talk over unix domain sockets.... 20:44:20 sykopomp: feel free to email them to me. 20:44:38 sykopomp: I don't remember a discussion like that. I don't think it's a good idea to always use LET*. 20:44:50 -!- Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:44:50 That sounds like a crummy idea to me too. 20:45:05 sykopomp: Or rather, I remember discussions like that, but none specifically. 20:45:35 sykopomp: Bah anyone who does that should be shot 20:45:47 the argument, I think, is that you use let* by default and let when you specifically need the parallel evaluation of values and binding 20:46:04 so "let" means "read the values forms carefully" 20:46:26 if someone uses LET*, I as reader will look where that's needed; if in fact it's not needed I'll look a second time, a third time, wasting brain cycles 20:46:31 you mean let*? (let* requiring you to make sure you know what the dependencies are) 20:46:38 re Krystof 20:47:34 prxq [n=mommer@f051165136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:22 hi 20:48:25 no, I mean "let", requiring you to spot that something is using a name for a previous value, not a new value 20:49:07 I'm not saying I subscribe to this argument, I'm saying that this is the argument: that there's a symmetry between let and let*, and just because you think "let" is the default doesn't mean that everyone else does 20:49:49 In /practice/, I think "let" means "these values are independent, and you can be sloppy about reading them." let* means that some (but not necessarily all) are ordered. 20:50:44 Maybe this is undesirable practice, but I think it's prevalent, and writing your code according to a different interpretation will make it difficult for others to read. 20:51:14 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 20:52:48 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:53:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:02 -!- sayyestolife [n=jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 20:55:07 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:56:04 -!- seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:29 how can the choice of let* over let, other things being equal make things really difficult to read? 20:56:59 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:12 prxq: i would expect at least one binding in a let* to refer to a previous binding, and will look for it. 20:57:15 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:38 ditto 20:57:40 drewc: right, but would that disorient you so much as to actually cause a waste of time? 20:58:11 prxq: i would look again when i didn't find it the first time.... 20:58:14 it would not disorient me to that extent 20:58:17 "I would expect at least one value in a let to refer to a previous name, and will look for it" 20:58:18 so yes. 20:58:33 Krystof: fair enough. 20:58:37 so? 20:59:04 are the semantics of let and let* really so confusing? 20:59:17 Fade: confusion has nothing to do with it. 20:59:17 Fade: exactly, they are not. 20:59:18 prxq: choosing let* is like choosing some odd word-order 20:59:21 if it's a matter of convention, some people will hold to that convention strongly and others won't have heard of it -- so arguing about which one is "right" is pointless 20:59:38 it means "hey, look something odd is happening here, you need to think" 20:59:39 what is the argument for using let* by default? 20:59:45 i know what NULL and NOT do, but i prefer one over the other in certain situations 21:00:01 Fade: Krystof just made it in quotes above 21:00:13 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:36 and he's right, the only reason i prefer LET is because i think of it as a single LAMBDA, where LET* is essentially the identity monad 21:00:50 yes!! :-) 21:01:00 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:03 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-161-71-17.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:21 maybe let* reminds some of C 21:01:31 but, having implemented the a monadic-let*, i've also implemented a monadic-let this is infact a wrapper around the LET* 21:01:40 that is in fact* 21:01:48 *drewc* gets coffee 21:02:30 "use the appropriate let for the form." seems like a good rule. :) 21:02:32 *Xach* wonders about making a turbo search index for the CLHS 21:02:46 Fade: define appropriate ;) 21:02:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:03:38 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-189-222.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:47 the one that satisfies the requirements with the least complexity. 21:04:08 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 21:04:10 most of the time I use the parallel let. this is likely a cultural convention. 21:04:36 *Fade* shrugs 21:04:43 pr [n=pr@p579CA938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:32 Fade: I think it is a cultural convention, but so, for instance, is indenting your code standardly 21:05:48 these conventions matter 21:05:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:15 I see let* most often in functions that do most of their work in the binding forms. 21:06:31 well, in the actual bindings 21:06:57 rpg: bad news. 21:07:02 any of you have a decent cure for insomnia that doesn't involve a bottle of whiskey? 21:07:15 Fade: turn off your computer 21:07:17 rpg: I just got an e-mail from my fiancée. I can't make it tonight :\ 21:07:23 rum? :D 21:07:25 Fade: it is Burns night, whisky is mandatory up here 21:07:29 Fade: in toronto? house music! 21:07:30 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:07:37 hah 21:07:45 sykopomp: sigh.... 21:07:47 you might not get any sleep, but it's going on all night every night :P 21:07:55 rpg: I'm not making up excuses :\ 21:08:01 well, he was a terrible poet, but a good excuse for drunken carousing. 21:08:02 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:05 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-71-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:08:15 sykopomp: I believe it.... 21:08:33 Bostonians interested by the discussion of Scheme macros on an empty stomach are invited to come to the Boston Lisp Meeting tonight! 21:08:34 I'll do a talk next time! :P 21:08:53 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:09:17 rpg, did you try my asdf development repo? 21:09:36 Fare: I recently read pcos' paper on hygiene in CL-style hygienic macros, have you checked that out? 21:09:45 nope. 21:09:49 Where is it? 21:09:57 interesting stuff that one 21:10:10 *drewc* is a big pcos fan 21:10:12 doesn't it require whole-program control? 21:10:22 Uhm that's awefully academic 21:10:31 Fare: you can pull it off with symbol macros 21:10:39 I suppose with boundp and fboundp, you can know what's bound at the toplevel, and then you only need to do magic at the toplevel. 21:10:42 although you need to shadow a bunch of symbols. 21:10:58 IIRC, it's just explicit renaming.. non? 21:11:03 right 21:11:13 Fare: I'm afraid not. I'm feeling a little paralyzed about ASDF right now --- we don't have a good way to write ASDF system definitions that work on Classic ASDF \tm and New ASDF \tm, so I have just been ignoring new ASDF. 21:11:28 it's been a while since i read that one 21:11:37 Fare: http://p-cos.net/documents/hygiene.pdf 21:12:20 anyone knows where to get the latest ltk sources? 21:12:28 Fare we need to get something like #+new-asdf and #-new-asdf or new asdf is effectively unusable (unless one has more control over one's co-workers than I do). 21:12:36 rpg: the idea is that I'd push the new asdf if only it is backwards compatible. 21:12:42 the tarball seems from way back, but the mailing list seems pretty active 21:12:50 -!- happycube [n=cpage@208.1.239.35] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:07 Fare: new asdf is already incompatible, if only for the eminently reasonable built-in dependency of test-op on load-op. 21:13:17 rpg, I could export :asdf2 to features. 21:13:43 I intend to bump the version number to 2 at some point. 21:13:46 Fare: we should probably come up with a scheme that supports a smoother upgrade path.... 21:13:50 in the near future. 21:13:56 rpg: you propose. 21:14:47 Fare: Well, I guess we could always just have asdf2 now and add further version numbers so that we monotonically grow the asdf elements of *features*. Seems inelegant. 21:15:24 OK. So let's have asdf2 *and* some elegant solution that asdf will provide thereon. 21:15:31 if you can design one. 21:15:36 I suppose an alternative would be to add :asdf-version if the ASDF you have supports *asdf-version*... 21:16:15 adsf:*asdf-revision*? 21:16:29 that would allow for finer-grained control on the one hand, but not by the reader. Doing such things in the reader is preferable, it seems, since otherwise changes in the package exports cause pain. 21:17:20 Fade: Yes. I regret the use of that name -- it made sense when ASDF lived in CVS, but is decreasingly appropriate. *asdf-version* would be a better name, but we should probably keep *asdf-version*. 21:17:44 Fare: I also put new asdf aside because the tests failed for me... 21:17:59 I need to recover that context and see if I can fix them. 21:18:05 what tests? 21:18:52 If I make an asdf/2 I can rename *asdf-revision* to just asdf:*version* 21:18:59 or asdf:*asdf-version* 21:19:17 -!- defn is now known as qed 21:20:35 Fare: the regression test suite failed under ACL. I believe I posted about this (not sure I launchpad-ed, though). 21:20:47 ok. 21:20:57 gotta go get the BLM ready. 21:21:08 can you also please call it "ASDF2"? 21:21:23 Krystof, as opposed to /2 ? 21:21:42 *Fade* seconds the request 21:21:49 ok for #+asdf2 21:22:04 Fare: OK. I'll try to make some time to figure out the test failures. Let's think about whether features or *asdf-version* is the best solution.... (asdf:*version* isn't good if someone wants to :use asdf, is it?) 21:22:08 before I release it, I'd like it to be tested with ACL indeed. 21:22:32 indeed, *version* sucks for users of asdf. 21:22:45 I mean that you can rename *asdf-revision* to asdf2:*version* if you like 21:23:04 rather than what you said (asdf:*version*) 21:23:12 Krystof, oh, you mean, you want a brand new package name? But that would break backwards compatibility. 21:23:26 the whole point of ASDF is to remain backwards compatible. 21:23:45 otherwise, I'd rather just work on XCVB. 21:23:52 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-28-86.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:24:00 Fare: I should go, too --- need to meet a colleague at a coffee house to grapple with APIs.... 21:24:07 ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-105.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:14 if you're renaming variables, you're not backwards compatible 21:24:46 -!- splittist [i=3ecb8b6a@gateway/web/freenode/x-onsywwwiieqychww] has quit ["no grappling with APIs! Leave the APIs ungrappled! APIs are people too!"] 21:24:58 Krystof: Well, actually, we are, because Classic ASDF never had *asdf-revision* --- it came in when gwking took over and has never really slipped out into the wild. 21:25:09 oh, right 21:25:14 Yes and no. I'm breaking precisely those people who do tests based on ASDF version, who are precisely the people who should be breaking explicitly loudly and early, because they probably need to update their code. 21:25:16 in that case, go right ahead :-) 21:25:38 (and yes, that's pretty recent) 21:26:13 bah, you can export a *asdf-revision* symbol-macro from a GW-ASDF-COMPAT package and document it... for 90% of use cases it's going to work :P 21:26:37 Krystof: Unfortunately, asdf-version isn't very helpful because in order to use it in conditionalization, you must protect all references to it, since it's a non-existent symbol in Classic ASDF. 21:26:53 *drewc* does not think special variables should be exported from packages as part of an interface or protocol. 21:27:21 drewc, except if the variable is designed to be locally bound. 21:27:24 drewc: That may be, but this problem would still exist for (asdf:asdf-version) 21:27:42 Fare: provide a funcall-with function and a with-macro 21:28:14 drewc, alright, OK, you win 21:28:24 a lisp image with classic ASDF will crash reading an asd file that references either... 21:28:41 rpg: fair enough :) 21:28:48 xffff [n=mike@88.130.193.110] has joined #lisp 21:28:53 hence the "rolling snowball" of *features* 21:28:57 rpg, a lisp image with classic ASDF should first load the new asdf.asd 21:29:12 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:38 so, export an asdf-version function? 21:29:41 Fare: In theory, yes. In practice, I work with too many people beyond my control for that --- I must write ASDF files that can be read by classic ASDF. 21:30:20 Can't you start with (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :asdf) in your .asd and then assume a modern ASDF ? 21:31:16 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:31:24 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:31:29 Fare: #'asdf-version would be my preference. A special can be setq'd and bound... if you're not exporting that functionality, then exporting a special variable is leaky. 21:32:50 Fare: Possibly. I already thrust ASDF down these people's throats and I am reluctant to expend the influence points to thrust another one on them. Chicken and egg problem: new ASDF isn't enough better for me to push it. New ASDF won't get enough better without putting in some good new features. 21:33:25 Fare: there are a number of things we could do that would be the proverbial "killer app" for ASDF 2.... 21:34:08 OK, I'm committing that change in my repo 21:34:47 rpg, I'd rather have killer apps in XCVB, but oh well. 21:35:53 Fare: I suppose one might consider reverting to a "bugfix maintenance only" status on ASDF. Anyway, I'm now horribly late for a meeting. Must dash. Thanks... 21:36:55 -!- ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-154-62.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:09 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.196.91] has joined #lisp 21:39:01 I *am* doing "bugfix maintenance only". 21:39:20 Except that I consider the configuration problem to be a big bug. 21:39:36 nitor [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:04 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:40:27 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:37 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-76-217.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:53 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:54 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-243-237-2.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["brb"] 21:49:31 jleija [n=jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:01 -!- Edico_ [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:05 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-131-244-53.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:22 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-255-135-245.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:03 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.177.0] has joined #lisp 21:51:15 francogrex [n=user@91.180.213.55] has joined #lisp 21:51:49 Hi, a quick offtopic question; I think a lotta poeole would like to see me make less spelling errors 21:51:58 -!- xffff [n=mike@88.130.193.110] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:26 ...and fewer grammatical errors too! :P 21:52:39 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:52:54 well good news for you all, i got aspell installed 21:53:03 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:42 it obviously need patched 21:55:42 hehe 21:55:48 oops needs 21:56:01 Mine is defective too 21:57:27 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:45 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:16 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f7559b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:07 -!- francogrex [n=user@91.180.213.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:32 -!- Ri-|away is now known as Ri- 22:02:02 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:13 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:57 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051165136.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 22:14:41 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:15:42 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:17:12 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:43 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:53 dnolen_ [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:25 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:23:27 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:26:26 -!- Davidbrcz_ [i=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:27:06 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:37 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.177.0] has left #lisp 22:30:14 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:30:55 which Xpath library is used by the CXML utils? 22:31:10 I have cxml-stp depending on "xpath", but cliki lists a few 22:31:26 plexibus? 22:32:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:53 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.242] has joined #lisp 22:34:04 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 22:34:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@109-167-15-164.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:34:30 t 22:34:35 pr [n=pr@li151-63.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:17 Fare: Did you see my IM memo about a build system on code.google.com? 22:37:17 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:37:35 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:37:43 lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 22:39:10 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:12 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:31 Moe111 [n=Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727943.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:39:51 heyall. Anyone know if there's a similar thing to CCL's Cocoa interface for SBCL? 22:40:44 dear people who use "strings" in depackage; please stop 22:41:10 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:41:12 #:symbol does the trick 22:42:35 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:45 -!- dnolen_ [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 22:43:45 ELT, AREF and GETF should team up and fight against GETHASH, ASSOC and NTH ... solve this problem once and for all. My money is on the aref side.. i think they can bring a few more guys and they have a much stronger reason to emerge victorious. 22:44:48 drewc, slot-value is on the aref side. 22:45:41 as is schar... svref is there too, but i don't know if aref is going to let his little brother get involved. 22:45:47 snearch [n=olaf@g229055086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 don't forget char, bit, and sbit 22:46:38 see, now i'm starting to feel sorry for the minorities... damn liberal guilt. 22:46:45 ldb is on the gethash side, though -- (ldb bytespec integer) 22:46:50 don't forget schar 22:46:56 abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 22:47:02 *drewc* mentioned schar already :) 22:47:39 there's also GET on the aref side. 22:48:17 I don't see what's wrong with gethash, but if someone wakes up Zhivago, he'll tell that we can replace them all with one "REF" function 22:48:17 and get-properties qualifies for that side too 22:48:19 yeah, but i think GET is too old to be fighting. 22:48:31 get-properties has some fight left! 22:48:52 what the hell do GET and SET do anyway? 22:48:55 hefner: REF would be the AREF side winning 22:48:56 anyone ever use them? 22:49:01 fusss: i use GET 22:49:12 fusss, two different things -- SET is like (setf (symbol-value symbol) value) 22:49:17 SET is (setf (symbol-value ..)) 22:49:50 GET retrieves a property from the symbol-plist 22:50:21 i have cases where i use the symbol-value, function and plist of a gensym 22:51:05 symbols and their plists are a premature optimization; i always wrapped them with constructors and accessors, and used hash-tables as placeholders. NEVER needed to make them into plists. 22:51:07 but get could easily be a getf of symbol-plist and we wouldn't lose much... just like set. 22:52:33 i'm not sure what you mean by optimisation in this case... i've never used any of them for performance reasons and can't see how one would. 22:52:56 i really need deconstructing xml documents by their shapes 22:53:15 *fusss* will need to phrase that better 22:53:38 and i wrap everything with constructors and accessors, regardless of the underlying datastructure... because i often change them out from under myself. 22:54:06 more often then not really. 22:54:29 yep, inlined constructors are a win win 22:54:46 -!- ramus_ is now known as ramus 22:54:53 inlined? premature what now? 22:55:31 woo cracl! 22:56:02 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:45 Xach: brilliant concept... certainly would encourage my participation! 22:56:49 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:58:39 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:34 define real ale 23:01:03 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 23:01:32 if you wanna sample some weird aussie beer, try beez neez 23:02:27 fusss: the search for the definition of Real Ale is part of the adventure! 23:02:40 but one certainly knows it when one drinks it. 23:02:49 fusss: Has to be hand drawn --- no carbonation! 23:03:26 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-19.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:59 ans [n=user@user123.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:20 rpg: :-) 23:04:28 -!- ans [n=user@user123.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has left #lisp 23:05:16 The ICAPS conference was in the Lake District a few years ago. It was hard to take it too seriously when it competed with hiking over the hills and ending up with a couple of pints of Real Ale at the bottom.... 23:07:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:07:56 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["leaving"] 23:08:06 pr [n=pr@li151-63.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:14 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 hugod_ [n=hugod@vpn.touchtunes.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:05 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441588.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:53 wow... this is seriously not cool.. http://ow.ly/10fVL 23:14:35 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:51 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:15:15 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229079024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:15:44 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:15:54 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:17:27 seriously not relevant 23:17:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:00 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:19 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:24:19 timor1 [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:24:39 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:25:44 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:27:10 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@vpn.touchtunes.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:39 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA938.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:41 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA938.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:48 -!- Moe111 [n=Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096727943.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 23:29:42 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:36:43 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g229055086.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:37:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:37:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:37:36 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit ["leaving"] 23:38:23 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:30 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:43:33 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:45:22 BrianB04 [n=BBommari@c-68-61-113-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:25 Good evening all. 23:46:49 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:48:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:48:09 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:29 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:51 Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-225-179.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:50:36 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:50:42 -!- geramuk [n=despot@71.92.98.86] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:19 hey [i=581a689f@gateway/web/freenode/x-wvyvgzgumzjsthwf] has joined #lisp 23:53:27 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.225.120] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:30 -!- hey [i=581a689f@gateway/web/freenode/x-wvyvgzgumzjsthwf] has left #lisp 23:53:48 heyhey [i=581a689f@gateway/web/freenode/x-wvyvgzgumzjsthwf] has joined #lisp 23:55:49 hi, is there an efficiency limit to the number of developers that can join a project? 23:57:11 sure, individual developer productivity scales as sqrt(2)^(n-1) for 'n' developers on a project. [Citation Needed] 23:57:26 erm, (sqrt(2)/2) 23:57:48 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:59 I'm quite bad at calculus but then there isn't a limit?