00:04:07 -!- alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:57 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:57 00:31:58 -!- names: ccl-logbot Xantoz ace4016 ramus HET2 leo2007 Jasko quidnunc Odditus happycube mattrepl ruediger_ marioxcc _3b` Phoodus Edward Raptelan AntiSpamMeta pr_ _8david` tomaw Dominian clog niko Adamant fe[nl]ix DeusExPikachu ikki REPLeffect digms SandGorgon saikatc ASau sepult parolang Dawgmatix bgs100 stoop Guthur ivan_chernetsky Yuuhi Ginei_Morioka Beetny mrSpec yates mrsolo fmu kleppari kejsaren2 wlr kpreid Odin- carlocci zophy-ng slyrus blitz_` 00:31:58 -!- names: gruseom redline6561 Soulman amnesiac dialtone nha abeaumont cools hefner Harag Sergio` grouzen rrice Lithos mathrick dys reprore Spaghettini Xof moesenle ignas legumbre Stattrav wasabi billstclair easyE cmm- coyo rdd daniel benny blast_hardcheese tarbo NNshag Fufie fihi09 lnostdal adeht GrayGnome potatishandlarn mle TR2N lpolzer_ beach partisan ianmcorvidae Draggor Adlai pragma_ tltstc raison c|mell Xach borism dejones specbot minion lisppaste 00:31:58 -!- names: erk DrForr_ yahooooo emma skeptomai|away ivan4th drewc Vonunov nyef eno peterwang johs tic alexsuraci scode krappie lharc rotty qeb`away phadthai ineiros j0ni p_l schme zbigniew jsnell pkhuong arbscht _deepfire weirdo danderson rullie rapacity Zhivago peddie Axioplase_ guaq dmiles_afk Guest53408 koning_robot Soulmann lukjad007 jamesstanley xenosoz2 Holcxjo addled prip alexbobp mornfall aking guaqua PuffTheMagic_ bobrown` Khisanth kloeri kuwabara2 00:31:58 -!- names: Terminus Patzy slather_ chii wgl hdurer fnordus reb ironChicken dfox_ tychoish PissedNumlock mgr lemoinem disturbance svaksha BrianRice ecraven tvaalen cupe Tabmow nuba xinming pjb p8m Aisling borisc madnificent KatrinaTheLamia jyujin_ sykopomp spiaggia xan Taggnostr foom Ri-|away dostoyev1ky yacin boyscared nicktastic rahul Carnegie Helheim dcrawford bfein srcerer rootzlevel dalkvist anekos kencausey cods djm egn Fade stepnem antifuchs felipe 00:31:58 -!- names: cpt_nemo Tordek housel blackened` Legooolas Pepe_ dto spacebat cmeow_ kingdon_ Orest^bnc rbancroft Wraithan rsynnott cmatei pok rlonstei1 Yamazaki-kun setheus erg djinni` foom2 bdowning hohum fractalis luis dym Tristam herbieB l_a_m Adrinael hoeq z0d koollman whoppix frodef mtd Buganini vsync cataska retupmoca codemonkeyx bakkdoor guenthr clop kom_ fgtech nowherman Intensity nasloc__ jrockway spoofy ``Erik sytse Dodek sjbach joast CrazyEddy 00:31:58 -!- names: antoszka dsop slyrus_ ve thijso nullman` trittweiler mikezor joga defn _3b ski 00:32:26 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:35:20 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 00:35:53 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-112-120.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:36:17 Okay, http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/sbcl-internals.pdf chapter 6 updated, still no diagrams but the description of heap object layout should be improved. 00:36:37 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:24 I'm tempted to leave the diagram thing as fixme-comments for now and commit what I have. 00:39:35 billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-216-227-57-119.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:19 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:41:20 -!- billstclai [n=billstcl@dsl-216-227-57-119.taconic.net] has left #lisp 00:41:44 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:41:59 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 00:44:08 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-214.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:46:08 johs_ [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 00:47:24 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:25 how do you set a variable? 00:47:40 a global variable, i.e. 00:48:05 A global variable? Typicaly, with SETF. 00:49:16 -!- kingdon_ [i=yebyen@irie-arch.rit.edu] has left #lisp 00:49:47 Some poor, benighted hethens still recommend SETQ, but the right thing is still to use SETF. 00:49:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BE4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:05 Now, that's if the variable has already been defined. 00:50:38 You've probably already heard about the defvar/defparameter thing for defining them, right? 00:52:29 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53:31 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:51 pok_ [n=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 suppose I do (setf (symbol-value 'foo) 'bar) or (set 'foo 'bar) w/o any special declaration.. that seems to allow for "global lexical" thingy? but I am doubtful to it because every time this comes up people use symbol macros to implement it 00:57:13 adeht: What you end up with is an -undeclared- global special variable, thus you get an undefined variable note every time you have a free reference to it. 00:57:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [] 00:57:31 nyef: yes, I noticed that 00:57:37 -!- pok [n=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:56 nyef: but what's special about it? 00:58:08 However, as it isn't proclaimed to be special, any new binding established for it will, by default, be lexical. 00:59:06 Okay, it's not exactly special. 00:59:20 ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-136-192-9.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 It's still -wrong-, though. 01:00:39 I hope someone might save the time of scanning the CLHS for the consequences (or undefinedness) of this 01:00:44 -!- Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-67-214.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:01:03 adeht: I remember recently reading a discussion about it, but not where :( 01:01:32 There's still an aspect of "why the hell do you want this, anyway?" to it. 01:02:03 to embiggen my Lisp trivia knowledge, of course 01:05:04 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:33 interesting, by the clhs FOO is a variable, because it's not a symbol macro.. but it doesn't seem like it's a lexical, dynamic, or constant variable. 01:09:55 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-208.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:01 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:04 It's an undeclared variable. 01:10:15 -!- ramus_ [n=ramus@adsl-99-136-192-9.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:10:20 (Constant variable sounds rather like an oxymoron.) 01:10:35 it's a well known oxymoron ;) 01:10:46 Like "microsoft works"? 01:11:01 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:37 -!- DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:11:58 the clhs has no notion of "undeclared variable" 01:12:20 Okay, okay, "undefined". 01:13:07 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.12] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 01:15:07 JoshTriplett [n=josh@unaffiliated/joshtriplett] has joined #lisp 01:15:11 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:18:29 As a macro learning exercise, I tried to make a macro which would let me write (lambda (x y) (+ 1 x)) as (l x y -> (+ 1 x)). However, I think I've got some bad quoting somewhere, because I get "FUNCTION: lambda-list for :LAMBDA should be a list, not #:G9598". http://paste.lisp.org/display/93770 01:18:43 What have I done wrong? 01:20:13 Try (macroexpand-1 '(l x y -> (+ 1 x))) and see what it comes up with. 01:20:19 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has left #lisp 01:20:22 -!- ramus [n=ramus@99.23.136.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:38 nyef: I did. I get (LET* ((#:G9597 (POSITION '-> '(X -> (+ 4 X)))) (#:G9598 (SUBSEQ '(X -> (+ 4 X)) 0 #:G9597)) (#:G9599 (SUBSEQ '(X -> (+ 4 X)) (1+ #:G9597)))) 01:20:39 (LAMBDA #:G9598 . #:G9599)) 01:20:58 nyef: The first part of that looks right. The second part doesn't quite look right, but I don't know how to fix it. 01:21:20 JoshTriplett: you're doing things at runtime that you should be doing at macroexpansion time. 01:21:25 ... Actually, I fail to see why this macro even needs the gensym. 01:21:40 Xach: Probably. :) What in particular? 01:21:42 But yeah, Xach has the right of it. 01:21:52 All of your POSITION and SUBSEQ stuff. 01:22:07 nyef: The -> gensym? To create a unique symbol to look for. 01:22:12 The only thing that should be in the backquote is the LAMBDA form. 01:22:24 nyef: Fair enough; that makes sense. 01:22:30 *JoshTriplett* experiments using that advice. 01:22:36 As the lambda form is the bit that you want to have output. 01:23:05 nyef: Wait, do I not need to gensym the three variables, then? 01:23:16 nyef: I can just bind them locally, and they won't affect the expansion? 01:23:18 nyef: now I'm more confused. if FOO is a variable, and "Non-constant variables can be assigned by using setq or bound[3] using let." it seems that using setq w/o defining is defined, but the common knowledge is that it's undefined 01:23:23 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:39 nyef: Hmmm, I guess if they did, I'd get in trouble with the names for the gensyms, too. :) 01:24:06 Bobrobyn_ [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:31 I had a feeling when I had to write ',r that I'd done something wrong. :) 01:24:47 ...and now it works perfectly. 01:24:57 nyef, Xach: Thanks! 01:26:36 ramus [n=ramus@adsl-99-23-157-47.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:53 adeht: Be careful, this path leads to concluding that symbols are bindings, and that symbol values are bindings, thus all symbols have themselves as their value and may never be unbound or modified. 01:26:56 JoshTriplett: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93770#1 01:26:57 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nmnmbtxcelxyalgv] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:27:20 nyef: no, no.. when I said FOO is a variable, I should have said FOO is the name of a variable (because it's not a symbol macro) 01:27:34 drewc: Yeah, same thing I just came up with, except that I hadn't yet substituted the args and body variables. 01:27:43 foo does not name a variable unless you have declared a variable named foo 01:27:47 adeht: ^ 01:27:59 adeht: Sure, but is it a -defined- variable? 01:28:14 drewc: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/03_abaa.htm see third paragraph 01:28:27 On a less complicated note, does some standard function or functions exist to replace what I've done with position and subseq? 01:28:49 Not trying to prematurely optimize, given the likely use on small lists, but walking a list three times rather than once seems wrong. 01:28:52 nyef: I don't see anything about "defined variable" there 01:29:09 Yeah, hang on, I'm trying to find an interpretatation. 01:29:41 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.91.2"] 01:29:45 JoshTriplett: member and ldiff might help 01:29:59 Xach: I don't quite see how member helps. Looking up ldiff. 01:30:20 JoshTriplett: I wrote something about it recently, sec 01:30:24 JoshTriplett: (cdr (member '-> r)) gets you the body 01:30:24 JoshTriplett: i would use loop. 01:30:24 anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 01:30:38 (ldiff (member '-> r)) gets you the bindings 01:30:50 *Xach* has never ever used ldiff so is pleased to find some use for it 01:30:51 Xach: *huh*. 01:31:05 Xach: OK, I guess it makes sense that member could return a more useful value than t. :) 01:31:36 well, there's a symbol I don't think i've ever reached for. 01:31:52 Fade: it's over there, right next to nreconc 01:32:02 excellent. t'y! 01:32:23 JoshTriplett: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93771 01:32:55 adeht: Did you substitute in ->, or did it already use that as an example? :) 01:32:57 adeht: Okay, here's my current interpretation: By 3.1.2.1.1.1, FOO isn't lexical. By 3.1.2.1.1.2, it's not dynamic. By 3.1.2.1.1.3, it's not constant. By 3.1.2.1.1 it must be a variable reference, and must be one of the three kinds of variables. 01:33:11 I'm still trying to come up with a conclusion here. 01:33:16 JoshTriplett: I used it several times.. but that part I wrote for my LKCL (Little-Known Common Lisp) notes ;) 01:33:48 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 01:33:51 nyef: yep, that's what I had in mind when I asked what kind of variable it is 01:34:04 (the name of) 01:34:14 OK, something I don't quite get though: if member just returns the list starting at the matching element, does ldiff just accumulate the list before the matching cdr? 01:34:31 If so, doesn't that still walk the list twice? 01:34:42 Now, SETQ takes "a symbol naming a variable other than a constant variable", then changes its mind for symbol-macros. 01:34:47 JoshTriplett: not the whole thing. 01:34:55 Xach: Well, up to the match, anyway. :) 01:35:07 And getting to use ldiff is worth the inconsequential inefficiency. 01:35:32 Xach: Certainly a useful function, not complaining about learning it. Just wondering how to do it in one pass. 01:35:40 Even if we create a union between the two constraints, SETQ allows for the possibility of symbols that don't name variables. 01:35:47 JoshTriplett: LOOP version , single pass http://paste.lisp.org/display/93770#2 01:35:58 -!- anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has left #lisp 01:36:13 anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 01:36:15 drewc: "collect" looks awesome. 01:36:21 Therefore... such a symbol is not a valid form! 01:36:27 JoshTriplett: LOOP is awesome. 01:36:49 drewc: loop looks like its own DSL. :) 01:36:50 ldiff is awesome! 01:37:04 JoshTriplett: it is... the domain is iteration. 01:37:10 drewc: Indeed. 01:37:12 If a form is a symbol it is either a symbol macro or one of the three kinds of variables. Since FOO is none of these four, it's not a form. 01:37:22 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:24 *JoshTriplett* experiments with loop. 01:37:30 loop: it's probably more iteration that you'll ever really need. 01:37:33 nyef: that's the interpretation i agree with as well. 01:37:34 nyef: uh, I don't know how you arrived at that 01:37:35 -!- Ri-|away [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 01:37:40 bizarre syntax, though. :) 01:37:52 Fade: Yeah, entirely too few parentheses. :P 01:38:04 minion: tell JoshTriplett about iterate 01:38:12 some people like to use iterate, but loop is everywhere. 01:38:18 natch 01:38:19 is minion borken again? 01:38:35 Funny, I thought minion registered to nickserv? 01:38:35 drewc, the channel is +R to combat spam 01:38:38 i see no need for ITERATE... code walkers in my loops... gah! 01:38:50 Ri- [n=ubuntu@ec2-204-236-161-121.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:10 see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form 01:39:19 when i first got to lisp, I cam across loop, and it gave me whiplash. 01:39:27 then I accepted it, and moved on. 01:39:32 Fade: It threw you for a loop? :) 01:39:38 it explicitly says symbols are forms 01:39:55 in a manner of speaking. :) 01:40:11 adeht: question then .. does this create a variable : 'a 01:40:32 adeht: -Something- has to give here. 01:40:47 drewc: if a symbol A is created, then yes according to what I read 01:40:56 reducio ad absurdium alone tells us that something has to give. 01:41:35 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-41-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:41:40 it's a marginal hole in the spec. it's not a practical problem. 01:41:59 nyef: I think it's just another contradiction in the spec, that should've said that symbols are names only of lexical/dynamic/constant variables 01:42:01 adeht: what is it's binding? 01:42:07 if they are names of variables at all 01:42:09 variable n. a binding in the ``variable'' namespace. See Section 3.1.2.1.1 (Symbols as Forms). 01:42:30 it's pretty specific about _what_ its talking about in 3.1.2.11 01:42:38 that is symbols that name variables 01:42:39 this is starting to look like one of those discussions on usenet that get 'd 01:42:40 Actually, we can take the glossary entry as a restatement of the first sentence of 3.1.2.1, and then 3.1.2.1.1 as providing the restriction allowing us to define some symbols as not being forms. 01:43:52 this is about interned symbols with no binding? 01:44:28 Ow. I tried macroexpand-1 on loop. Mistake. :) 01:44:42 mle: It's about free references to symbols that haven't been declared special. 01:44:49 JoshTriplett: TAGBODY? 01:45:01 nyef: Hrm? 01:45:14 JoshTriplett: LOOP typically expands to a TAGBODY. 01:45:23 LOOP expansions can be pretty hilarious. 01:45:29 nyef: With a pile of stuff around it, yes... 01:45:50 what are the non-pathological cases? 01:45:56 I wonder who wrote the loop implementation in SBCL. 01:46:02 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:19 It's derived from MIT LOOP, isn't it? 01:46:36 I dunno. I assumed it was inherited from cmucl. 01:46:56 nyef: I don't see where the criterion of form is modified in 3.1.2.1 01:47:05 (incl. subsections) 01:47:06 mle: Non-pathological cases are a symbol-macro, a lexical binding, a constant, and an explicit special declaimation. 01:47:52 for each of those you know about them in-advance. 01:47:59 adeht: It's the first sentence. "If a form is a symbol, then it is either a symbol macro or a variable." The symbol is neither a symbol macro nor a variable, therefore it is not a form. 01:48:58 Are you treating constants like variables that don't? 01:49:00 one man's modus tollens... 01:49:41 drewc: http://paste.lisp.org/display/93770#2 doesn't quite work; it includes the -> in the args. It does provide an effective example of loop, though. 01:49:47 Your only other way out is to proclaim -all- symbols special. 01:49:54 -!- nowherman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:12 *drewc* tests his code 01:50:23 nyef: but your interpretation makes more sense in this case, indeed 01:51:01 JoshTriplett: change the second (car body) into (cadr body) 01:51:04 nyef: did you just do something with lisppaste? 01:51:05 nyef: thanks 01:51:13 drewc: Yup. 01:51:17 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:38 kpreid: No, but lisppaste is unlikely to be registered with nickserv and the channel is +R so unregistered people can't speak. 01:51:53 nyef: that's not what I meant: see lisppaste-requests 01:51:53 drewc: Actually, I prefer to move the "until" line before the "collect". 01:52:09 nyef: but to be pedantic again, did the CLHS just say that symbols may be variables? :) 01:52:20 JoshTriplett: that works too 01:52:30 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:31 actually, I forget the current set of lisppaste admins. nyef and ... drewc? 01:53:00 kpreid: as far is i'm root@common-lisp.net... but not much farther. 01:53:07 adeht: Oh, right, -that's- the path that leads to symbols being bindings with the value being the symbol themselves again, and thus not possible to render unbound. 01:53:14 my bot knowledge is how to kill them when they crash. 01:53:57 drewc: Currently trying to figure out why the finally clause needs return. 01:54:02 kpreid: That's... neat. 01:54:39 drewc: Also, would I confuse myself too much if I thought of loop like a list comprehension? 01:55:02 kpreid: That's more likely to be fallout from something that freenode did. 01:55:04 JoshTriplett: i'm still trying to figure out why finally needs a return! :) 01:55:05 drewc: (Though I can easily see that they have more power.) 01:55:10 drewc: Uh-oh. :) 01:55:17 you would yes... loop is for iteration 01:55:33 kpreid: Alternately, perhaps chandler had something to do with it? 01:55:35 JoshTriplett, I thnik the answer to that goes back to TAGBODY 01:55:54 Adlai: that's what i figure too. 01:56:24 nyef: Well, *someone* did: nickserv says of minion Registered : Jan 23 01:21:28 2010 (34 minutes, 30 seconds ago) 01:56:25 JoshTriplett: list comprehensions are something else entirely, only tangentally related to iteration. 01:56:42 I guess you could also say that it's based on PROG, but that returns nil too 01:56:58 drewc: Hard to see how list comprehensions (in other languages, at least) don't strongly relate to iteration... 01:57:20 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-53-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:27 That's... odd. 01:57:28 JoshTriplett, uses for list comprehensions in other languages are often replaced with mappings in CL 01:57:32 I have no idea. 01:57:39 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:58:02 Adlai: Sure. Uses for list comprehensions in other languages often become mappings in other languages, too, at least in languages that have sensible mappings. 01:58:25 nyef: yeah, someone injected the command at the lisppaste repl, but they're not connected any more (screen -r didn't fail) 01:58:36 JoshTriplett, loop isn't really a mapping, though. For that we have things like mapcar and mapcan. 01:58:37 JoshTriplett: on can implement a lisp comprehension using iteration, sure... but iteration is significantly more general. 01:58:49 list comprehension* 01:59:20 LOOP is barely structured programming... a thin veneer over PROG :) 01:59:25 (according to authorized_keys the lisppaste admins are chandler, rydis, nyef, me, eenge, root@common-lisp) 01:59:40 *kpreid* shuts up now, as the mystery is sufficiently resolved 01:59:46 by the way, just glancing at the clhs page for tagbody, it mentions the implicit tagbodies in the various dofoo forms. What are some examples of uses for that, other than a C-like "continue" tag? 02:00:08 Adlai: As far as I can tell, it represents a general goto/label construct. 02:00:12 Heh. And, at that, I think I managed that by using root access to clnet to put my ssh key in the auth list. 02:00:21 Adlai: (Or perhaps more generally something like continuations.) 02:01:04 Adlai: somewhere, i saw some code that used the tagbody features of dolist for a nested loop of sort. 02:01:13 Adlai: exactly that. redoing or skipping the rest (or part of) the body. 02:01:50 -!- digms [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:02:46 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-66-1.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:03:18 interesting 02:03:28 Ah, right, the glossary entry for dynamic variable says "a variable the binding for which is in the dynamic environment". The entry for variable says "a binding in the ``variable'' namespace". Variables therefore both are and have bindings. 02:03:42 *Adlai* has only done a (dolist (foo bar) ... :continue) 02:03:49 (Or, rather, variables are bindings, dynamic variables also have bindings.) 02:03:50 Does lisp have anything like pattern matching? Something vaguely along the lines of (match (a b) l (assert (eq a (car l))) (assert (eq b (cdr l)))) ? 02:04:11 JoshTriplett, not built-in, but there are libraries providing variously detailed implementations of it. 02:06:13 nyef: yes, ambiguous term 02:07:41 Adlai: cl-match looks promising. 02:08:00 It's too bad the glossary is normative, as it seems like it's the only place which relates SYMBOL-VALUE to the use of a symbol as a dynamic variable. 02:08:05 minion, pattern matching 02:08:11 pattern matching: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 02:08:21 And having an excuse to break that would be amusing. 02:08:46 hmm. JoshTriplett, I think cliki lists a bunch of libraries for this, but how can I tell you about them when it doesn't respond to minion? 02:09:42 nyef: yeah, there could be an implementation-defined (declare (global foo)) :) 02:09:52 -!- Dominian [i=dominian@freenode/staff/dominian] has left #lisp 02:09:53 minion: cl-match? 02:09:53 http://cliki.net and http://cl-user.net are two places to look for libraries 02:09:54 cl-match: extended ML-style pattern matching library As far as I can tell, this library is dead. http://www.cliki.net/cl-match 02:10:11 *Adlai* laughs 02:10:16 JoshTriplett, I guess that's not a good library? 02:10:22 Adlai: So it would seem. :) 02:10:23 minion: pattern matching? 02:10:24 pattern matching: Libraries adding data-structure pattern matching operations to Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/pattern%20matching 02:10:26 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:29 Perhaps bpm... 02:11:11 I'm going to blame an empty DNS cache for the failure to get to cliki the first time. 02:11:25 JoshTriplett: for the simple kind of pattern matching you gave an example of, destructuring-bind is sufficient 02:12:01 adeht: I'd like more general pattern matching, though. Coming from Haskell, here. ;) 02:12:19 JoshTriplett: that's not a good reason to want it 02:12:30 adeht: Anyway, I would argue that the precedence rule would put any glossary entry somewhere lower than the rest of the CLHS in terms of applicability. 02:12:44 Though I admit that it may be situational instead. 02:13:17 left-to-right? 02:13:28 oh, not evaluation rule :) 02:14:00 adeht: Expressiveness. I don't typically want pattern matching for a single destructuring operation; I want it for a case...of statement, with which I can simultaneously match and destructure. 02:14:25 adeht: "if I have a cons, do this with the head and tail, else do this with the nil." 02:14:46 adeht: The obvious ways of writing that in lisp seem less elegant. 02:14:49 JoshTriplett: DEFGENERIC 02:15:04 JoshTriplett: usually in Lisp things are done differently than in Haskell, and use of cl-match and friends isn't that common 02:15:19 *stoop* prods pkhuong to share some interesting reads to /r/systems 02:15:19 drewc: Hence the qualifier "obvious"; I figured some non-obvious approach existed. :) 02:15:33 (defgeneric foo (thing) (:method ((thing cons)) ...) (:method ((thing null)) ...)) 02:15:37 adeht: Sure. On the other hand, lisp seems a lot more amenable to creating and using more expressive constructs. 02:15:38 pretty obvious to me. 02:15:49 drewc: The existence, not the form. :) 02:15:58 drewc: Now that I know it exists, I can figure it out easily enough. :) 02:16:47 JoshTriplett: if you try learning lisp before trying to turn it into haskell, you might run into features that solve the same problems in different ways. 02:17:08 clhs 1.5.1.4.1 02:17:09 drewc: Not trying to turn it into Haskell. Just trying to learn the right way to solve the same problems. 02:17:24 JoshTriplett: right.. but I wouldn't recommend ignorantly (of Lisp style) following style you learned in another language 02:17:28 nitor [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:43 jumping straight to 'i need pattern matching' ignores that fact that lispers have had every opportunity to add pattern matching... but yet it's not widely uses. 02:17:45 used* 02:18:07 drewc: "I'd like something like pattern matching" seems like a reasonable question. By which I mean "something which solves the same problem". 02:18:29 there are two possible reasons for that : lispers are ignorant of the benefits of pattern matching, or we don't need it given the other tools we have available. 02:18:38 drewc: I know which one I'd bet on. :) 02:19:11 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:11 JoshTriplett: the question is: what is the problem 02:19:25 Hrm... There might be a problem with that resolution rule. 1.5.4.1 refers to "exceptional situations" and is commonly interpreted to apply to anywhere the spec contradicts itself, but it might only apply to the "exceptional situations" section of a dictionary entry as mentioned in clhs 1.4.4.10. 02:20:09 JoshTriplett: see FILTERED-DISPATCH for a feature based on generic functions that is a lot more than pattern matching. 02:21:10 adeht: Trying to simplify the really common pattern of "if I can destructure this way, do so, else ...". Comes up with lists, tagged unions, or just numbers. 02:21:16 nyef: huh? what's 1.5.4.1? 02:22:16 JoshTriplett: that is not a concrete problem 02:22:38 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.41.164] has joined #lisp 02:23:14 JoshTriplett: for most of those cases, i'm willing to bet IF and/or COND are enough. 02:23:34 Err... 1.5.1.4, sorry. 02:23:35 (if (i-can-destructure this-way) (do-so) (else)) 02:23:50 drewc: Sure, but you end up duplicating a lot between the condition and the do-so. 02:23:59 you could also use supplied-p variables from your destructuring-bind as the conditions 02:24:08 what he said 02:24:29 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:24:32 JoshTriplett: then structure your code so you don't 02:24:48 *drewc* hands JoshTriplett an FLET 02:25:03 :D 02:25:06 *Adlai* hands drewc a FLET 02:25:22 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:24 *JoshTriplett* tries to figure out how local functions help here. 02:25:28 *drewc* looks at his n in shock 02:25:35 where did that come from! 02:25:41 an eff-let 02:25:49 drewc, it's not unheard of... sykopomp pronounces it like Xach does 02:26:00 oh, i don't say it like that 02:26:00 Xach: ah, that makes sense. 02:26:00 indeed 02:26:02 Demosthenes [n=demo@dhcp184-49-168-62.univ.buf.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:07 i say it "flay" 02:27:12 nyef: the context (say 1.5.1.4.1) makes it quite clear to which "exception situations" it refers to ;) 02:27:22 Yeah, exactly. 02:28:09 But I seem to recall that that's the section used as justification during other spec-conflict resolution. 02:28:14 Xach: you're one of those 'macro-lay' guys too then, ain't yas. 02:28:48 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 02:29:31 drewc: Also, as far as I can tell defgeneric doesn't make it any easier to express cons-versus-nil than cond does; you still have to destructure... 02:30:01 JoshTriplett: i gave you an example earlier 02:30:10 DEFGENERIC dispatches on type. 02:30:22 JoshTriplett: Costanza: DEFGENERICs are CONDs 02:30:24 sorry.. on class 02:30:25 drewc: I read the example. It does indeed dispatch on type, but what do you call the head and tail? 02:30:43 drewc: to be honest, i never say this stuff out loud. several jokes at ILC went over my head because i couldn't map what was said to a symbol i recognized quickly enough. 02:31:05 JoshTriplett, check out http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/filtered.html 02:31:28 Xach: i had never pronounced may of these things until i went to ITA.. then i learned that everybody pronounces them differently. 02:31:41 with a bit of work (which is done for you in that library), you can get generic functions to dispatch on whatever predicates you want. 02:31:42 -!- Ri- is now known as Ri-|away 02:31:54 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:05 'sbuckle' and 'kemuckel' were my favorites. 02:32:11 Adlai: *that* looks promising. 02:33:00 Adlai: so costanza's filtered functions started to prove themself useful :) nice 02:33:08 *rme* wonders how they pronounce ccl at ITA ... cuckle? 02:33:35 rme: probably 'open muckle' ;) 02:33:58 do they 'eckle ECL? 02:34:03 Does CFFI have any support for arrays? 02:34:04 hmm.. I'm less CLOS-ecstatic.. not the Tilton school, but I wouldn't use filtered-functions for a single case covered by if/destructuring-bind 02:34:14 Ralith: "coffee"? 02:34:22 Hey, if there's an OpenMCL is there also a FreeMCL and a NetMCL? 02:34:23 sykopomp: "what"? 02:34:31 Ralith: pronunciation. 02:34:33 adeht, "clostastic" 02:34:36 nyef: heh. 02:34:50 Well, we have 2/3 of that with VMS, so... 02:34:51 adeht: i'm CLOS-ecstatic, but i have yet to find a need for filtered functions. 02:34:51 I was surprised the first time I heard CLOS pronounced as "Clause" 02:34:59 I've always said "See-loss" 02:35:00 drewc: yes, I've seen your code ;0 02:35:14 drewc: I think I have a pretty good excuse for filtered functions. 02:35:26 CLOS rhymes with floss. 02:35:51 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:52 kpreid: I've always heard it pronounced that way. 02:35:54 it's "kloss" on the easy coast "see-loss" on the west 02:35:57 drewc: imagine if many of the CLOS MOP functions were written using a CLOS with filtered functions built-in... 02:36:01 (in my experience) 02:36:10 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:36:19 instead of having 'slot-value-using-class 02:36:25 sykopomp: scary 02:36:27 you would have 'mop:slot-value 02:36:28 sykopomp: ...okay? 02:36:31 drewc: Counterexample: in US/Pacific here but everybody I know (who talks about lisp) says "kloss". 02:36:32 with an identical lambda-list 02:36:33 so does CFFI support arrays or not? 02:36:39 sykopomp: so? 02:36:41 except the class of the instance would be filtered to use the metaclass. 02:36:51 sykopomp: that's a bad idea, imo. 02:36:56 Ralith: it does 02:37:11 sykopomp: i much prefer to put different functionality in different functions. 02:37:22 this would still be a different function 02:37:34 adeht: haven't been able to find any docs, and google tells me to use pointers instead; any tips? 02:37:36 cl:slot-value would be a function, and mop:slot-value would be its 'dispatched' alternative. 02:37:43 (a genfun) 02:37:54 sykopomp: what's the point? 02:38:01 Ralith: tips on what? what are you trying to do? 02:38:16 drewc: saner function names, no need to say "bats will fly out your nose if you dispatch on the class of the instance" 02:38:17 adeht: define an array type, for starters 02:38:38 adeht: in this case, typedef dReal dVector3[4]; 02:38:41 sykopomp: i still don't undertand. 02:38:46 adeht: As far as I can tell, destructuring-bind does the destructuring, but doesn't safely ensure that it *can* first; it just throws an error. So, as you suggested, you'd have to combine it with if or cond. 02:38:51 (defmethod mop:slot-value ((o persistent-metaclass) (property persistent-property)) ...) 02:39:01 drewc: I think it might lead to a cleaner interface, that's all. 02:39:04 JoshTriplett, you could bind handers around destructuring-bind... 02:39:05 i'm in architecture undergraduate program and hobbyiest programmer, but i guess i'll start a CS program soon, do you know any faculties which have cl projects or academics that teach and work with cl 02:39:20 sykopomp: i think that overloading the same functions with different functionality is not cleaner. 02:39:24 *Adlai* envisions destructuring-handler-bind 02:39:24 Adlai: True. 02:39:31 drewc: they're not the same functions. 02:39:45 sykopomp: then i don't understand. 02:39:46 i mean in europe 02:39:49 Adlai: Seems straightforward enough to build some simple macros around a sequence of destructuring-bind operations, sure. 02:40:08 drewc: cl:slot-value is the function that you actually use 02:40:17 *JoshTriplett* takes a break from lisp experimentation. 02:40:18 -!- JoshTriplett [n=josh@unaffiliated/joshtriplett] has left #lisp 02:40:21 the mop: package happens to have a *generic* function with the same name. 02:40:25 gibranian, we're discussing filtered functions right now. Pascal Costanza teaches in europe -- http://p-cos.net/ 02:40:35 VUB, to be precise 02:40:35 and if you want to use the mop, you simply defmethod on that genfun, in the mop package. 02:40:38 sykopomp: so you've simply renamed slot-value-using-class? 02:40:49 drewc: and filtered it to have the same lambda-list 02:41:08 it's a pattern that's pretty universal in the MOP, and I think filtered functions do a good job at abstracting them. 02:41:15 you can still call it slot-value-using-class, that's not the issue. 02:41:35 Ralith: it's a struct with with dreal :count 4 02:42:10 adeht: O.o 02:42:18 sykopomp: so, you introduce a manual dispatch step when generic functions are designed to dispatch on class... why? 02:42:29 napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:39 drewc: cleaner protocol, nicer implementation, imo. 02:42:51 sykopomp: where do you specify the class you are dispatching on? 02:43:14 Hello. I have this sum function but it always returns 0. What's wrong? http://pastebin.com/m2bf473be 02:43:24 drewc: that's what the filtered dispatch is for. You're not supposed to dispatch on the object's class. You dispatch on the object's class' class. 02:43:55 sykopomp: what if you need both? 02:44:03 drewc: you can get it. What's the problem? 02:44:15 minion, tell napsy about lisppaste 02:44:20 sykopomp: i'm completely lost. where do you specify that? 02:44:45 sykopomp: you have to tell something that this is a method on these two classes and this value. 02:44:58 drewc, have you looked closely at the filtered-functions API? You can specify which filters a method uses. 02:45:25 Hello. I have this sum function but it always returns 0. What's wrong? http://paste.lisp.org/display/93773 02:45:27 napsy, you don't bind the sum variable anywhere, so that doesn't have very clear semantics. 02:45:43 hm 02:45:46 Adlai: yes, i know the api. 02:46:09 in CL, you should establish variables by binding them or declaring them global with defvar or defparameter before you assign to them 02:46:19 (defgeneric slot-value-using-class (object slotd) 02:46:19 (:filters (#'class-metaclass nil)) 02:46:19 (:method ((object standard-metaclass) (slotd standard-slot-definition)) 02:46:19 (std-slot-value-using-class object slotd))) 02:46:29 something like that, give or take. 02:46:45 drewc: basically, :key, but for dispatch. 02:46:51 which I think is convenient. 02:47:00 it's nothing mind-blowing, I just think it's nice. 02:47:01 Adlai: like (defvar sum 0) ? 02:47:35 napsy, well, that would be a global variable. A lexical (local) variable is more appropriate for your function. 02:47:59 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:48:00 napsy: no, like (do* ((a ...) (sum a (+ a sum))) ...) 02:48:08 adeht: that seems like an incredibly hacky way to do it 02:48:16 drewc: if you want the class objects, you have class-of and (compose #'class-off #'class-of) 02:48:37 Ralith: I suppose it is 02:48:44 filtered functions and composed classes oh my! 02:48:55 sykopomp: how do i do somthing like (defmethod slot-value-using-class ((class p-class) (object p-list) (slot (eql 'car))) ...) ? 02:49:00 errr 02:49:05 that last one is wrong 02:49:15 drewc: let me grab my copy of AMOP and I'll answer that. 02:49:29 (slotd (p-list-car-slotd)) 02:49:56 drewc, your other car is a slotd ? 02:49:59 err, thats wrong too... but you get the idea 02:50:33 napsy: you should see that the value of sum does not change in do as you might expected 02:50:49 yes 02:50:54 I always get 0 02:50:55 minion: tell napsy about gentle 02:50:55 napsy: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 02:51:11 ok 02:51:51 drewc: the simple answer is, you don't. The longer answer is where I would ask you why you should. 02:51:57 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:19 I -thought- I remembered AMOP saying you weren't allowed to, but it seems I was thinking of something else. 02:52:32 (still no AMOP copy, though) 02:52:37 sykopomp: because that's what the MOP is for? 02:53:13 sykopomp: it's a protocol of generic functions which one specializes to change the behavior of the object system... the whole point is that there are more classes to specialize on. 02:53:31 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 02:54:02 in that case, i was thinking of persistant objects, specificially a persistent list class, specifically the slot-definition that holds the CAR of the list 02:54:42 for whatever reason, i want to specialize that... say i keep all the CARs in a btree of their own because my application has a strange usage pattern. 02:56:37 or, say it's three different methods that are called by various combinations of call-next-method... it doesn't matter. 02:57:35 yeah, that's a good point. 02:57:59 do you still see how filtering might make things simpler (clearly, for less powerful and manly protocols) 02:58:20 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 02:58:32 i've been following filtered dispatch since he first came up with the idea.. i just personally have not had a need for it. 02:59:17 I did find a place in Sheeple where it seems filtered dispatch would help fix a metacircularity problem, but that's something else :) 02:59:24 i embraced contextl immediately, fwiw... so it's not like i'm a luddite or a conservative ;) 02:59:52 I haven't really been following any of this filtered dispatch clusterfuck. I don't read c.l.l., but I've seen that mess mentioned. 03:00:17 I just started looking around wondering how filtered dispatch might help and got a few ideas :P 03:00:25 none of which I've even tried. 03:00:49 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:01:28 Aw man, I messed up my stupid joke. http://paste.lisp.org/display/93773#1 03:02:24 rme: i like it anyway.. PROG FTW! 03:03:55 rme, how is it messed up? 03:04:08 anair_84 [n=anair_84@m4f0436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:25 (sum -1) 03:04:42 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:55 adeht, what would you have it do? 03:06:04 pass it to napsy's sum and assume he defined sum and used setf :) 03:07:45 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["asdf"] 03:08:54 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-251.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:09:17 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:13:17 -!- nitor is now known as digms 03:14:18 -!- digms is now known as n1t0r 03:17:12 -!- Odditus [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has left #lisp 03:19:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:10 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24:13 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-182.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 03:24:50 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.41.164] has left #lisp 03:25:47 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:08 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:26:43 -!- rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:48 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@m4f0436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:21 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:51 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 03:39:50 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:59 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f734773.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:53:14 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:53:24 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 03:53:37 -!- yacin [n=yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [K-lined] 03:54:41 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:29 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [K-lined] 03:57:29 -!- rahul [n=rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [K-lined] 03:57:30 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [K-lined] 03:57:43 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.235] has quit [K-lined] 04:08:26 -!- anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:12:28 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:36 What does lisspaste use for syntax hilighting? 04:20:15 Ralith, I think the code is somewhere on the site 04:20:35 if i'm not mistaken, it uses the lisppaste syntax highlighter 04:20:46 :D 04:20:55 Ralith, try http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/lisppaste/coloring-css 04:21:43 drewc: where do I find that? 04:22:03 colorize? 04:22:05 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:39 looks like. 04:26:01 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-216-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:25 -!- pr_ [n=pr@p579CA683.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:31:39 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:32:42 grkz [n=qsvans@c-49fae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:33:01 -!- grkz is now known as tankrim 04:38:44 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:58 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:13 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-252-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:49 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-102-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:44:49 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 04:46:51 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:46:57 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-0477.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 04:50:53 -!- tankrim [n=qsvans@c-49fae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 04:51:53 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:29 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 04:55:10 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:58:16 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:10 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:46 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:01 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:06:25 -!- kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:28 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:14:16 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-141-157-42-193.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:46 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:30:54 Is there a CFFI equivalent ot the C size_t type? 05:31:48 Ralith: stop right there 05:31:54 do yourself a favor. 05:31:56 go to google.com 05:32:02 type "cffi size_t" 05:32:08 and push "I'm feeling lucky" 05:32:24 but I'm not feeling lucky 05:32:25 :[ 05:32:30 do it before complaining. 05:32:52 so the answer is 'no' 05:33:12 the answer is "jfgi" 05:33:30 I did 05:33:32 and the answer was 'no' 05:33:34 :P 05:33:47 Ralith: and where did you find this answer? 05:33:59 Ralith, no, the answer was "rtfm" 05:34:01 behind the couch. 05:34:09 :P 05:34:13 Ralith: no, the answer to my question is "In the CFFI manual" 05:34:25 :| 05:34:52 sykopomp: I was reading the CFFI manual. 05:34:58 and I thought to myself 05:35:06 oh ok 05:35:07 "I bet I can find this in the types section" 05:35:11 and I looked in the types section 05:35:15 and I didn't find it! :O 05:35:20 so then I thought to myself 05:35:30 "This seems like a really basic type; I should check with #lisp" 05:35:37 and I did! 05:38:27 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:39:51 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.10] has joined #lisp 05:44:46 whee 05:44:48 cffi-grovel is neat 06:01:14 hehehehe 06:01:51 yes, it is. 06:02:07 felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:51 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:13:00 angel [n=user@123.112.224.41] has joined #lisp 06:13:29 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:15:14 $2,000,000.00 <-- is it possible to have both ~:d style commafication and also ~0,02f style significant digits? 06:19:04 brb 06:19:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.6b4/20091124213835]"] 06:19:20 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-181-145.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:42 -!- angel [n=user@123.112.224.41] has quit [Client Quit] 06:23:34 kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-16-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:44 -!- kroger [n=user@adsl-76-204-16-60.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:23:45 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:27:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:28:19 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.165] has joined #lisp 06:34:10 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:35:57 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:37:32 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:39:04 jlpeters [n=james@c-76-121-2-144.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:08 -!- jlpeters [n=james@c-76-121-2-144.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:39:55 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:40:13 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 06:41:05 -!- GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:49:19 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:20 fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 06:51:58 everything that is not a cons is an atom 06:52:12 but isn't it possible for an atom to be a cons? 06:52:34 like this?: ((a b)) 06:52:46 fatblueduck, what atom do you think is a cons there? 06:52:57 Adlai (a b) 06:53:03 (cons (cons a b) nil) 06:53:04 that's a cons too. 06:53:15 erm, 06:53:24 conses can contain conses in their car and cdr. 06:53:26 (cons (cons a (cons b nil)) nil) ? 06:53:41 anyway, nil is the only thing that's a little weird 06:53:52 because it's not consp, but it is lisp and you can call car and cdr on it 06:54:00 s/lisp/listp/ 06:54:08 fatblueduck: conses can have conses :) 06:54:55 sykopomp: the question is: can an atom have conses? 06:55:10 yes -- (vector (cons 1 2)) 06:55:26 that is... a cons that exists as an atom within a higher order of conses 06:55:35 ok thank you :) 06:55:48 fatblueduck: in Lisp, as in physics, atoms are a misnomer 06:55:59 (make-array 4 :initial-element (cons 'a 'b)) => #((A . B) (A . B) (A . B) (A . B)) 06:56:04 hm, "atom" is a misnomer 06:56:48 arrays, structures, clos objects, anything that has slots or elements can hold conses just like anything else 06:56:51 hashtables using open hashing probably have conses in the chains. 06:58:30 fatblueduck: when you think atoms, think non-conses.. both the car and the cdr of a cons may be anything 06:58:57 adeht: ok that makes things much clearer 06:59:15 even though conses are only one of many composite types in lisp 06:59:26 some non-conses may hold objects as well 07:17:02 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.77.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:04 _8david [n=user@port-92-195-253-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:03 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.173] has joined #lisp 07:21:49 _8david`` [n=user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:22:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:23:14 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-253-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:25:32 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 07:27:13 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:33 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-254-158.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:15 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-92-195-3-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:49 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:45:52 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-201-176.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:47 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-229-252.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:57:45 akar [n=ghi@92.82.79.212] has joined #lisp 07:59:57 Good morning! 08:02:09 is it just me or :key-and-value :key-or-value hash-table weakness semantics are misleading 08:02:29 adeht: backwards from what you'd expect? 08:02:30 (terms are misleading) 08:02:32 drewc: yes 08:03:02 me too 08:03:23 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-60-82-254-220-198.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:43 morning beach, btw :) 08:07:03 where's that page in cliki where everyone dumped all their wet dreams? 08:07:36 minion: sheeple? 08:07:37 sheeple: Sheeple is a delegative prototype-based object system inspired by CLOS. http://www.cliki.net/sheeple 08:07:37 :P 08:07:46 http://www.cliki.net/Wish%20List 08:07:54 *everyone's* wet dreams. Not mine. 08:08:11 hmm, there was another one 08:08:12 adeht: not that one. I recall a much bigger page where people started talking more in terms of improving CL overall. 08:08:49 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:05 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 08:10:24 http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20-%20Next%20Generation 08:11:02 there we go. 08:11:04 thanks 08:14:49 that page is pretty useless... there are much better such compilations around... 08:15:04 links welcome :P 08:15:56 well, some of them are on that page actually, which makes it slightly less useless. 08:16:05 there was some clhs3 or such page also if I remember 08:16:21 cltl3 08:16:36 there are two links at the bottom of that page to proposed changes to ANSI CL 08:18:48 astertronistic [n=micknast@utc-44-65.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 08:20:04 -!- astertronistic [n=micknast@utc-44-65.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:20:44 astertronistic [n=micknast@utc-44-65.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 08:21:03 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-109-64-24-30.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:21:35 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:06 sykopomp: right, "Proposed Extensions To ANSI" is the cliki page i was remembering 08:22:21 cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has joined #lisp 08:23:55 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-162-71.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:31:35 -!- akar [n=ghi@92.82.79.212] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:55 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:59 anair_84 [n=anair_84@adsl-69-234-103-161.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:42 Is it possible to loop with 2 elements from list? I'd like to do something like: (loop for x y in '("1" "2" "3" "4") do (concatenate 'string x y)) =>"12" "34" 08:47:12 (loop for (x y) in list by #'cddr do ..) 08:47:22 er, s/in/on/ 08:49:01 how do we feel about plists? are they a handy ad-hoc representation for little structs, or some work of satan? 08:49:06 *fusss* notes to his future self: ~$ formats monetary values. don't reinvent it, again .. 08:49:20 Satan, definitily. 08:49:41 sykopomp: so what do we prefer - alists, structures, classes, ? 08:49:47 lukego, depends what you're doing, but if you need structs, use defstruct. 08:49:54 clos uber ales 08:50:11 lukego: I tend to like alists for small structures, hash tables for anything bigger 08:50:19 structures for fast-access, but very immutable stuff 08:50:20 note that (defstruct (foo (:type list)) a b c) IS a plist 08:50:24 classes when you want a protocol :) 08:50:24 I suppose I want a dictionary that pretty-prints nicely. 08:50:44 sykopomp: why alist vs plist? 08:50:46 lukego: use hash tables, and violate 11.1.2.1.2 08:50:47 make a new pprint-dispatch-table, and stick a function in there for hash tables :P 08:50:56 sykopomp, why violate the spec? 08:51:09 Adlai: because you can't write print-object methods for hash tables >:( 08:51:14 hashtable pprinting is not sufficiently good 08:51:18 without violating that thing 08:51:39 sykopomp, you can write pprint dispatch functions in a custom table. 08:51:42 let me put it another way. why _not_ use a plist? 08:51:51 lukego: because I don't like them. 08:51:52 :D 08:52:10 lukego, because you can use (defstruct (foo (:type list)) a b c), and have the slight self-documenting effect of having your datastructure described in code. 08:52:22 sykopomp: actually I prefer that answer to "because they're slow" :) 08:52:38 Adlai: thanks :) 08:52:41 Adlai: right but this is for ad-hoc'ery before I know what the structure layout should really be 08:52:44 sykopomp: defstruct :type list is not a plist 08:53:05 adeht, true. also, sykopomp is not an Adlai 08:53:10 lukego: I'd say just use alists if your objects are small 08:53:12 yeah 08:53:21 Adlai: you know, 10:52 ;) 08:53:39 *Adlai* should invent a new datatype based on cons cells and call it an adlist 08:53:50 3am >:( I should really not be phase shifting >:( 08:54:16 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:54:17 Adlai: there was that thread on c.l.l. about the bizarre third leg to plist/alist 08:54:35 lukego, in that case, sure. using plists is probably also more convenient than alists, because you have the writer for GETF 08:54:42 I think it was something like ((key1 key2 key3) value1 value2 value3) 08:54:44 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:30 *Adlai* refuses to tarnish his name with a V-shaped datastructure 08:55:51 alists just don't print quite as nicely imo 08:56:07 you also don't have a writer for assoc/rassoc 08:56:13 wimp! If anything, they need -more- parentheses. 08:56:22 I guess you just use push for that :| 08:56:33 hashtable with wrapper or pprint function may actually be the best idea 08:56:35 Adlai: or that dinky library you wrote :P 08:56:51 lukego: you could also try some mutton. 08:56:56 but that's just shameless on my part :P 08:56:56 sykopomp, nah, I think that c|mell has a version of that in Alexandria now 08:57:03 Adlai: oh sweet. 08:57:05 there I was thinking that both GETF and ASSOC had SETF methods 08:57:17 btw am I the only one left who writes lisp symbols IN-CAPS? :) 08:57:26 probably. 08:57:33 I don't have a caps lock key :) 08:57:42 lukego, nope. ASSOC returns the cons, not the value, so it doesn't make sense for it to have that kind of writer 08:57:50 also, GETF isn't required to have a SETF method 08:58:00 lukego: I like using plists for some small stuff, when I want to add/override new properties dynamically (say binding special variables, list*), multiple properties w/ same names, etc. 08:58:10 clhs 5.1.1.2 08:58:32 hmm, +R => no specbot 08:59:15 last sentance of 5.1.1.2 lets implementations implement accessors such as getf and slot-value using setf expansions or other shady techniques, rather than #'(setf functions) 08:59:41 lukego: basically when I need an ad-hoc association structure I usually start with plist 09:00:21 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@dhcp184-49-168-62.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit ["leaving"] 09:01:30 Adlai: getf can't be a setf function 09:01:50 Adlai, are you talking about cdr-assoc? sadly that's still waiting to get into alexandria 09:02:03 adeht, right, but #'(setf slot-value) could 09:02:22 lukego: also note that there's a handy get-properties 09:02:51 c|mell, sorry to hear that. I have my own little hacky version of that at http://github.com/adlai/alref/ back from before I knew what alexandria was :) 09:03:13 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:04:54 seangrove [n=user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:03 heh, I have some AGETF machinery 09:05:28 adeht: thanks, I will join your club :) 09:05:35 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-66-108-150-228.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:07 -!- _8david`` is now known as lichtblau 09:07:54 cdr-assoc has been around for so long and is so useful, please lobby alexandria to put one in 09:07:57 another nicety is that you can use &key parameters to destructure plists.. provide defaults and everything 09:09:06 c|mell: there's assoc-value 09:09:12 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 09:09:13 so, drumroll, I think I'm actually going to make my first honest use of a 64-bit machine - mmap()ing a >4GB file 09:09:14 Adlai, your alref looks better with its default argument 09:09:39 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:10:05 lukego, hope that you don't suddenly realise that you can't do what you want with only 48bts of address space :) 09:10:24 how come? 09:10:41 (not a problem for me - I don't work at google :) - just asking :)) 09:10:48 although I think assoc-key/assoc-value aren't such good names, considering that feature that is rassoc 09:11:57 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f754a5e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:12 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-66-108-150-228.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:14:05 trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-226-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:23 hello. 09:14:45 hello trebor_home 09:15:30 c|mell, really? should I incorporate that into your patch? 09:16:04 hello beach 09:18:25 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.95.37] has joined #lisp 09:18:50 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:23:33 Adlai, well why not submit your alref as it has everything already? i don't mind what it's called 09:24:00 *c|mell* really believes that cdr-assoc/alref/alist-get whatever belongs in alexandria 09:24:08 heh, I named it ALREF back when I thought Arc was cool... the name comes from there 09:24:35 cdr-assoc is the cl name for it but i think that the argument order is not standard 09:25:14 if you post it, i will follow up with a supportive message :) 09:25:16 well, getf and gethash have opposite argument order. I guess going with getf would make more sense. 09:25:29 *Adlai* checks which argument order his version uses... 09:25:57 c|mell, heh, thank you. I'll post it soon. 09:26:07 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:26:21 do you think the global variable defaults are good, too? 09:27:39 c|mell: what about ASSOC-VALUE 09:27:46 looks like I didn't understand format pprint directives back when I wrote that... oh wait, I still don't. 09:28:34 [df] [n=df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:42 Adlai, not sure about the global variables as it seems more a recipe for confusingly changing the behaviour of unexpected parts of the program 09:29:03 ok, I'll throw those out 09:29:37 i'd say just post it to alexandria and let them bikeshed the global variables 09:29:55 alexandria is pretty stale at the moment 09:30:13 who are the committers exactly? 09:30:51 hello? ALEXANDRIA:ASSOC-VALUE 09:31:05 nikodemus, attila who still care 09:33:19 I figured that getting a real release out would probably take a man-month if not more 09:34:34 adeht, what is alexandria:assoc-value -- i haven't got it 09:34:57 c|mell: you should darcs pull 09:36:55 there's ASSOC-VALUE and RASSOC-VALUE (my remark about the names earlier was wrong) 09:37:50 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.95.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:17 o sweet it seems tcr's managed to get alist-get into alexandria! 09:41:31 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:42:00 thanks adeht, i didn't notice; so Adlai i guess it leaves the alref thing moot 09:42:59 i might change the docs: ASSOC-VALUE is an alist accessor very much like ASSOC -- change ASSOC to CDR ASSOC, etc. 09:43:51 yes, the docs aren't so good.. it is like assoc in the second value it returns however 09:47:16 simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:47:33 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 09:48:16 anyway it seems that progress is being made in a forward direction :) 09:52:57 Reaver1 [n=User@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:53:46 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-104.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:55:06 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:55:35 while I'm polling, any fans of ext:collect in here? 09:55:47 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:26 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:56:41 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:09 -!- zophy-ng [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:02:18 BrianRice [n=water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:12 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 10:10:20 what library had parse-float? the non-standard analogue to parse-integer? 10:11:05 minion: parse-number 10:11:06 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 10:11:42 -!- pjb [n=t@64.Red-79-149-158.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:53 ah yes 10:12:47 is it safe to use it to read money values? 10:13:06 why do you want to read money values as floats? 10:13:58 I am thinking of spliting input by the the decimal point and reading dollar parts and cent parts as two separate components of a struct 10:14:19 adeht: what do you recommend then? 10:14:22 yes, that's better 10:14:58 you just need parse-integer and split-sequence hackery 10:15:40 i have something a bit more elaborate already, to and from database, at 4 significant digits, etc. 10:16:01 billstclai [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 10:16:16 actually forget parse-integer.. you should write a parser 10:16:41 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:16:59 -!- billstclai [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has left #lisp 10:17:07 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:13 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:17:17 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:02 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.44.246] has joined #lisp 10:19:49 why do you want to keep dollars & cents separate, as opposed to just total-cents = raw-cents + raw-dollars? 10:19:57 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:59 100 * raw-dollars :-P 10:21:41 Phoodus: weird yield optimization thing 10:22:26 brb 10:23:25 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 10:23:28 oh man I love writing I/O-bound code :) 10:23:56 sucks to be a mapreduce hacker who doesn't have impunity to waste cycles in the idle loop :) 10:24:12 (not that I've ever tried..) 10:24:50 do you count memory I/O as I/O? :-P 10:25:13 most of my code ends up bound there 10:27:51 disk, for a change 10:33:09 lukego: I've been writing on a with-buckets that also supports :synchronized t so you can use it from multiple threads; it uses locking at the moment, but I'll make it use a lock-free algorithm in future. 10:33:53 I'm still in the "brain cycles spent on multithreaded locking are a human tragedy" camp :) 10:34:07 I'm sure i'll come around eventually :) 10:34:40 do things in batch to avoid fine-grained locking 10:34:55 depending on your latency/throughput balance 10:35:05 just say no to threads :) 10:35:19 threads are awesome :-| 10:35:22 lukego: It's new-ground for me so, and you learn by doing etc. 10:37:19 and it made me found a (non-severe) bug in SBCL's condition-wait already :-) 10:38:14 Geralt [n=Geralt@p5B32F440.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:02 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:43:17 zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:36 tcr: you may be interested in this page: http://cellperformance.beyond3d.com/articles/2009/08/roundup-recent-sketches-on-concurrency-data-design-and-performance.html 10:44:52 adeht: Thanks, yes, I'm pretty much interested in any serious material 10:45:33 Dunno how you manage to get into new ground, but I read just everything I can find and enter a state of mind where I know everything and nothing at the same time :-) 10:46:17 just remember that on a multicore system, writes can appear out of order to different cores 10:46:27 ie, set-data = X, set-done-flag = true 10:46:34 mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-128-31.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:38 where another core will see set-done-flag, but not the set-data until later 10:46:45 not just on multicore, Phoodus 10:47:40 also, learn Erlang :) 10:47:49 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-058-226-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:48:22 it'll change your thinking about concurrency just like Lisp changes your thinking about functional/imperative programming 10:49:19 benny` [n=benny@i577A8D4D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:31 -!- dys` is now known as dys 10:54:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18DB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:26 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 10:59:22 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:28 Phooodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:59 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:05:29 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:09:41 zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:57 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:43 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:31 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:26:00 -!- Phooodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 11:26:36 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:55 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@adsl-69-234-103-161.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:29:14 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.45.218] has joined #lisp 11:29:56 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:43 antifuchs: Are you here? 11:36:03 antifuchs, jsnell: I cannot hold on the 20th february anymore because I have an exam on the 19th; what do you think of a week later? 11:37:22 what's the best way to search #lisp archives? 11:37:34 download them and grep 11:39:38 lukego: use google? 11:39:49 google isn't delivering 11:40:16 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.44.246] has left #lisp 11:44:43 Blkt [n=user@net-93-151-226-214.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:44:53 lukego: You can ask me. Whatcha looking for? 11:44:57 fe[nl]ix: we 11:45:20 Xach: the responses the last time(s) I complained about Lisp not having a bit-syntax :) 11:46:25 you mean #*10010010010 ? 11:46:35 like in erlang? 11:46:58 or (boole boole-and x y)? 11:47:15 I think the bit-unpacking stuff 11:47:50 pattern matching on bits, afaiu 11:48:23 lukego: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2009-12/lisp-2009.12.31.txt at 21:10 11:49:27 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-104.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:50:21 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.45.218] has quit [Client Quit] 11:50:48 fe[nl]ix talked about implementing it either for cffi or iolib 11:53:44 Xach: the very spot! you da man! 11:54:13 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:55:03 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:10 -!- Blkt [n=user@net-93-151-226-214.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:55:52 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-300.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 Blkt [n=user@net-93-151-226-214.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:58:48 *Xach* lives to serve 11:59:36 Xach: so, you're planning to make a #lisp archive too? 11:59:39 maybe *you* should replace serve-event 12:00:04 /msg Xach hey file descriptor 83 is writable now. when you get a minute. 12:01:03 you caught me. wigflip is just me with photoshop and nc. 12:01:38 stassats: i've actually had pretty good luck with google and the existing ones. 12:02:53 search on names, date ranges would be better 12:03:12 -!- astertronistic [n=micknast@utc-44-65.resnet.ucsc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:04:03 not that i search too much 12:04:24 no-one here says anything of value anyway 12:05:28 Xach: next you'll tell me Youtube is just you, a morse code paddle, a Ethernet cable, and a voltage source. 12:05:34 which would be awesome. 12:05:45 a pigeon 12:05:45 pr [n=pr@p579CA683.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:08 a network of pigeons, if we take Xach's last post seriously 12:06:27 Krystof: standard Avian TCP/IP protocol I assume 12:07:27 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:11:20 damnit. 200m down the beach there is ~3Mbps HSPA internet. in my bungalow there is 8KB/s EDGE. I should have made a proper realestate inspection :) 12:13:02 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14:33 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-64-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:14 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:17:07 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:45 plist + destructuring bind + &key = poetry 12:19:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:23:30 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 12:24:00 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:18 -!- johs_ [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:23 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 12:24:33 G'morning all. 12:26:36 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 12:33:12 Are we still using CVS for SBCL, and when are we due for the monthly freeze before release? 12:34:22 jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:35:27 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 12:35:33 http://sexual.tumblr.com/post/342395445/ (disregard the domain, it's perfectly worksafe) 12:36:28 parenthesis porn! 12:36:34 yup! 12:37:28 all good designers stay away from curly brackets, though. 12:37:31 I doubt it's any practical, but I'll be damned if it ain't pretty 12:37:58 would be good for the rarely-used shelves in your guest room 12:38:07 Maybe the [] are positionable as bookends? 12:38:16 they seem to be 12:38:20 (as explained in the fine article http://www.xach.com/lisp/taste-for-the-web.html ) 12:38:38 also that gives me ideas, you could do a whole set of shelves as a lisp form 12:38:54 Not practical for around here, though, I'm afraid. We have too many books to waste wall space like that. :-/ 12:39:12 nyef: that's why guest room :) 12:39:32 it'd be something to put next to the TV or other rarely-used yet exposed areas 12:39:56 We don't really have a guest room, and the room which would be the guest room has shelves on three walls already. 12:39:59 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:26 nyef: get more walls! 12:41:20 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:41:43 mathrick: We tried that. They fill up with books too fast. 12:42:02 a word of caution: if you want a hassle-free pet, don't take in a stray mix of siamese and oriental shorthaired cat. It's impossible to get rid of her, somehow of all the places in my (arguably not that big) room, all the good ones just happen to be on or next to my lap 12:42:28 nyef: you need an extensible wall framework then :) 12:44:41 Mmm... That's the problem with cats, they often decide that the place to be is between you and what you're doing. 12:47:19 Bah I need a day with more than 24hour, or alternatively a way to reduce my copious need of sleep :-) 12:47:44 tcr: The "uberman sleep schedule"? 12:47:57 Sleep three hours out of every twenty four. 12:48:18 In evenly-spaced half-hour blocks. 12:49:01 ah, the glory of sleep deprivation 12:50:19 *nyef* wonders what to say about the SBCL type system implementation in the internals manual. 13:01:18 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:04:45 I still have to pinch myself each time SBCL tells me "no warnings" :) 13:05:04 Heh. I've started getting dead code elimination notes at read-time. 13:06:58 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:07 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-66-1.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:23 prxq [n=mommer@f051132051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:34 hi 13:08:37 Hello. 13:08:42 the most strange warning for me is when it says unable to inline a function because a ctran block (???) was eliminated as it is unused :) 13:08:59 That's a neat-sounding one. 13:09:01 seems to me that if you know it's unused, you don't have a problem 13:09:27 nyef: I know there are many sleep reduction schemes, but I wonder if anyone tried one and can confirm that they do not harm health and well-being 13:10:12 icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:10:26 ISTR that Steve Pavlina tried one for a while and blogged about it quite a bit. 13:10:54 I tried one twice, but didn't manage to get through the acclimation period. :-/ 13:12:21 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A8D4D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:13:49 tcr: it is hard to imagine that they don't 13:14:22 -!- icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 13:14:43 I'd rather say that if you can't manage with the time available, a different solution may be more sustainable 13:14:54 different than simply sleeping less. 13:15:33 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:15:36 Apparently, if you stay sleep deprived for long enough, your body and brain adapt to pick up sleep in sub-second periods throughout the day. I don't know how true this is. 13:16:11 benny` [n=benny@i577A110D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:33 that sounds a bit like the cause of many accidents 13:17:45 MORE AUTOMATIZATION can help with time 13:18:34 less #lisp, also 13:18:39 Right. It's apparently unnoticable, unlike the time when I was badly sleep-deprived and graying out for a half-second or so at a time when doing about 70mph. -That- sucked. 13:18:52 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:53 (And, fortunately, has never had to happen since.) 13:19:06 - a different job, - more realistic goals, - adding a member to the team 13:19:30 icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:35 nyef: uh oh 13:20:42 icecube [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:47 -!- icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:47 icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:50 -!- icecube [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:51 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:30 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.44.246] has joined #lisp 13:29:57 do you know how to configure slime to use a spesific browser for hyperspec 13:30:11 gibranian, that's a more general emacs issue 13:30:13 i use links and emacs can't find it 13:30:39 try M-x customize-variable browse-url-browser-function 13:30:44 specific for hyperspec only? 13:30:49 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.45.218] has joined #lisp 13:30:55 I (setq browse-url-netscape-program "firefox") in my .emacs, but there's bound to be something a little less (or more) specific. 13:31:20 i mean i only need it for hyperspec, except that i don't need url browsing from emacs 13:31:26 using browse-url-browser-function, you can set up so that you view hyperspec in w3m, and other links in firefox. 13:31:59 i meant "links", the browser one :) 13:32:16 I know. 13:32:22 that was just a word coincidence 13:35:08 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:37:00 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 13:38:11 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:39:08 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:32 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 Okay, feedback request time again. http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/sbcl-internals.pdf chapter 6 is about where I think I want it for now. Is there anything that needs fixing? 13:40:29 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 13:41:12 prxq: In normal work life, you tend to sleep 5-6 hours a day; I use to sleep 2-3 hours more than that 13:41:45 That's sleep 5-6 hours a day -at the office-, right? 13:41:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 :-P 13:42:56 nyef, section 6.1.1 -- how do you get 32 possible tags from 4 lowtag bits on 64bit systems? 13:43:07 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-36-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:43:21 Thanks. Should have been 16. 13:43:35 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has joined #lisp 13:44:02 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-41-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:44:22 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:44:29 nyef: in 6.1.1 "This leaves the low bits (that would be 0)" what does "that would be 0" mean? 13:44:59 nyef: you could mention the fact that arranging widetags in blocks or other patterns with most bits fixed allows for cheaper type tests for some types 13:45:19 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-152-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:21 stassats: An aligned address has its lowest bits as 0, up to the alignment constraint. 13:45:26 thinking particularly ARRAY but also NUMBER 13:45:43 yeah, maybe that could be phrased as "This leaves the low bits available for use to hold type information, as an aligned address has ..." 13:46:12 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.44.246] has left #lisp 13:46:33 Okay, more detail on widetag allocation, and a rephrase on the aligned address/lowtag thing. 13:47:25 if you're feeling strongly motivated you could put in a table of values (grovelled a bit like the external formats table in the main manual) 13:48:04 I'm not that strongly motivated. This is a bit more of a backgrounder and a "where the source is" thing. 13:48:34 I'm thinking that the next chapter to do is on the implementation of the type system. 13:50:09 nyef: if i didn't already know how fixnums are tagged i wouldn't understand from this description 13:51:09 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 13:51:45 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-216.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:53:12 Hrm... 13:53:31 Anything else? I notice that everything thus far has been about section 6.1 and not section 6.2. 13:54:02 we read slowly. very slowly. 13:54:06 Fair enough. 13:55:45 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A110D.versanet.de] has left #lisp 13:56:12 benny [n=benny@i577A110D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:12 Hey, what do we use the extra lowtag space for on 128-bit ports? ^_^ 13:56:33 hm, grammar issue -- support for carrying _them_ around in the second footnote -- shouldn't that be singular? 13:56:50 or maybe trace tables should be plural 13:57:19 Yeah, trace tables should be plural. 13:57:25 -!- cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:57:37 cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has joined #lisp 13:57:40 tcr: 5-6 hours of sleep is not enough for most people. I tend to need 7 and a half to 8 13:59:19 nyef, what is the purpose of the simple-fun headers in the first place? 13:59:45 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-216.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:52 They're function objects. 14:00:09 right, but what are they for? are they functions that the function closes over? 14:00:14 functions that it references? 14:00:19 They're -functions-. 14:00:59 yeah, but why are there multiple simple-funs stored per "data block"? 14:02:28 For most code-components, there is at least one "normal" function. There will be one per closure entry. 14:02:43 -!- cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:54 I'm not sure there are any other ways to cause a function entry to be created. 14:02:56 -!- Geralt [n=Geralt@unaffiliated/thegeralt] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:02:56 cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 ok 14:03:11 And there are a handful of code-components with no simple-fun headers at all. 14:03:38 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:13 tankrim [n=qsvans@c-49fae255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:16 (Actually, something I'd like to do with those code-components without simple-fun headers is to add debug-info objects to them. They really do need them.) 14:07:06 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:08:28 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:09:37 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:13:16 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:14:27 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:57 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:26 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:16:32 ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-66-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:17:56 djinni`` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-234-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:24 -!- djinni`` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-234-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:13 djinni`` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-234-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 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Quit] 15:09:23 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 15:11:07 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:11:32 jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:11:45 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:12:08 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:13:55 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:02 j0ni [n=joni@192.219.30.200] has joined #lisp 15:16:07 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-87-11.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 15:19:32 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:21:38 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-152-90.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:43 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-87-11.liwest.at] has quit [] 15:24:12 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:25:51 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:26:16 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-87-11.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 15:31:23 fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has joined #lisp 15:32:41 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 15:33:06 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:34:02 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:46 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["asdf"] 15:35:51 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-66-36.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:18 so clers are lousy release engineers 15:41:22 prxq: what makes you say that ? 15:41:39 an post in c.l.l. 15:42:31 I bet that that 'slime from 2006' that the guy refers to is the one I packaged back then 15:42:51 It's not that clers are lousy release engineers, it's that most CL projects don't actually bother to do any release engineering. 15:43:18 ...right 15:43:22 -!- fmeyer [n=fmeyer@189.4.254.233] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:44:32 I'd say most are too busy with other stuff 15:44:47 *nyef* is presently busy with writing internals documentation. 15:44:58 for sbcl? 15:45:05 For SBCL. 15:45:15 One of the CL projects with decent release engineering. 15:45:15 I think the danger to that thogh is the bar for getting into CL development is already pretty dang high, and if things aren't organized then it's just worse 15:45:16 -!- cmm [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:30 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-109-64-24-30.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 nyef: that is true. 15:45:47 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 15:45:55 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:46:23 maybe slimers are lousy release engineers 15:46:40 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-87-11.liwest.at] has quit [] 15:46:57 stassats: I'd rather say they dislike the idea of releases. No idea why. 15:47:05 stassats: And McCLIMers, and... 15:47:14 I wouldn't mind if someone steps up and cares for it. It's probably not even that much work, a day once a month. 15:47:38 "No, no, it's a -rolling release-." 15:47:40 -!- Blkt [n=user@net-93-151-226-214.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:46 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:48:19 tcr: you wouldn't mind, or would you also help that someone? 15:48:43 It is hard to do if you don't know internals. 15:48:50 i can help too 15:49:06 The real question is, how much can the release process be automated? 15:49:47 he/she has to read the ChangeLog entries, strip appropriate into NEWS-style entries, tag, tar, upload, perhaps blog. 15:49:53 slime still uses CVS, right? 15:50:01 and test on all implementations 15:50:08 haha 15:50:11 prxq: that's right 15:51:44 ok it sounds doable. 15:51:50 on top/instead of the ChangeLog entry harvesting, he can also write a about-to-release mail, and ask the comitters to shortly summarize what changes were introduced that should be mentioned. Probably that person should first try to do it on his own, then present a work-in-progress, and possibly ask for clarification. 15:52:13 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f754a5e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:31 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f754a5e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:42 Please notice that I'm not the maintainer, though. You should post to the mailing list. It's different if someone complains, or if someone offers. 15:53:37 I wouldn't mind if he leave the GNU-style ChangeLog behind, and instead go to a SBCL-style NEWS file where only user-visible changes are documented. 15:53:49 nyef: does "The value # is not of type SB-KERNEL:CLASSOID." sound familiar ? 15:54:09 fe[nl]ix: Not really, no. How'd you get that? 15:54:29 I have to think about it 15:55:22 a guy on b-t-devel got that with 1.0.20: the offending form is (deftype timeout () 'sb-ext:timeout) 15:55:36 fe[nl]ix: what package? 15:55:44 I'll just tell him to upgrade 15:57:16 Unfortunately, using deftype as a portability means does not really work, the proper means would be to introduce a new class, but subclassing a structure/condition is not portable either :-/ 15:57:58 tcr: what's wrong with deftype ? 15:58:44 fe[nl]ix: symbols are not type-expanded in lots of places 15:58:53 like method specializers, for instance 16:00:06 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 16:01:44 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:02:22 in this case, that's not really important: it only needs to work on SBCL and with handler-case/bind 16:02:45 adeht: holly serendipity! I googled for "parse-money" to see if there was some kind of emacs utility I can appropriate. And I found a lisppaste entry by you from 5 hours ago! :-D 16:02:46 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:55 fe[nl]ix: define-condition? 16:03:03 jan247_ [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 16:03:13 (I guess that doesn't acutally do what you want either...) 16:03:32 minion: logs? 16:03:33 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 16:04:11 tcr, stassats, is there something like a bug tracking system for slime? 16:04:27 no 16:04:29 nyef: not exactly. I'd need to wrap sb-ext:with-timeout and resignal bt:timeout 16:04:51 fe[nl]ix: #.timeout-condition-name ? 16:05:04 prxq: That would be another good addition 16:05:31 *.slime.cvs is not on gmane 16:05:50 prxq: it's slime.scm 16:06:32 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:06:48 nyef: I think I'll just try re-export the symbol 16:07:01 tcr: i see, thanks 16:07:32 fe[nl]ix: Wrapping conditions is not really possible either :-/ 16:07:38 yeah reexporting sounds good 16:07:46 I really wonder how much help I can reasonably be, since I know zip about slime internals 16:08:22 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 16:08:56 fe[nl]ix: You'd change-condition, kind of :-) 16:09:01 +need 16:09:28 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 16:10:53 -!- jan247 [n=jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:53 -!- jan247_ is now known as jan247 16:11:39 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:14:56 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:16 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:18:57 kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-252-238.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:20:09 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:32:24 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-116-227.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:32:44 ... Why do we have a distinct function pointer tag? 16:33:34 It's not like it's -that- frequent to call though a bare function pointer without going through a full coerce-callable-to-fun anyway, right? 16:38:18 francogrex [n=user@161.134-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:39:26 -!- Reaver1 [n=User@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:32 I was doing some simple stats on CLL the usenet group 16:39:41 And even then, if you elide the coerce then you have to have declared your object to be a function anyway, which means it doesn't need a type check anymore, right? 16:39:48 Is there any CL software that provides HM type system or more elaborate? 16:39:50 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:40:02 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:40:34 ASau: i vaguely seem to remember something. Check tha cmu ai archive. 16:40:47 "SML with Lisp syntax" may suffice. %] 16:41:06 prxq: any keywords? 16:41:25 Maybe some of the "system" lisp subsets as used in certain lisp implementations instead of C? 16:41:27 I'm trying to remember 16:41:38 no, it was a separate project 16:41:56 *prxq* .oO( NIL ) 16:42:09 the peak of the posts was in 2005 and now there is a declining trend 16:42:30 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-40-63.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:42:35 nyef: without a distinct function pointer tag, what does the test for "is this object funcallable" look like? 16:42:36 francogrex: that may reflect general usenet decline. 16:43:14 Group activity alone doesn't show anything, you know. 16:43:16 ASau: yes 16:43:18 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:43:39 Krystof: It looks like any other type test, surely? And means that we might want to play more games with the widetags to get a consecutive range. 16:43:43 that's what i was planning to do, control for the trend in usenet as well to see if the effect is independent 16:43:53 (Since symbols are funcallable.) 16:44:45 ASau: also one has to control for spammers effect etc 16:45:13 Okay, it puts an extra memory access and a couple of instructions in the loop for the function type test. 16:45:22 prxq: any idea if ACL2 may present any use to me in that regard? 16:45:32 ASau: no idea 16:45:37 IOW, does it have type system? 16:47:05 i don't know 16:47:20 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@93-35-252-238.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:59 Alright. 16:48:36 nyef: I meant %funcall (or whichever is the thing that calls functions) rather than cl:funcall 16:48:52 Right, that becomes worse. 16:49:05 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:06 Which rather answers my question, really. 16:49:14 I mean, I don't know, that might be negligible, but... 16:50:08 But it might also be time to set up some tests to see what the effect of eliminating the instance and/or function pointer tags is. 16:50:29 We have to lose one of them to get 31-bit fixnums anyway. 16:50:38 Xach_ [n=xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:02 Blkt [n=user@188.152.134.126] has joined #lisp 16:51:13 ASau: i remember clearly that there was something like that that ran under CL. The date was 1992. But I forgot everything else 16:52:03 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 16:52:20 -!- Xach [n=xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:05 -!- Blkt [n=user@188.152.134.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:15 Blkt [n=user@net-93-151-239-213.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 ASau: and it compiled 12 years later, that I remember too :-) 16:56:48 it finished compiling? 17:00:43 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 17:00:57 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 17:01:27 hmmm 17:01:55 is it typical for a complex loop form to be broken in the repl, but its cut-and-paste 100% functional in an editor window? 17:02:17 unixSnob [n=unixSnob@ip-94-140-188-181.reverse.destiny.be] has joined #lisp 17:02:24 shadeslayer [n=shadesla@unaffiliated/shadeslayer] has joined #lisp 17:02:31 -!- shadeslayer [n=shadesla@unaffiliated/shadeslayer] has left #lisp 17:02:53 if packages mismatch, then this is predictable 17:05:39 -!- Blkt [n=user@net-93-151-239-213.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:07:52 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:24 ahh, the fun times of report generation for time "periods" :-) where a given period, like "this week" can take so many meanings; all 7-days? only work days? what about public holidays? office closures? 17:11:17 anyone who managed to connect with quakenet using cl-irc ? 17:11:25 connect to* 17:11:44 -!- francogrex [n=user@161.134-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:35 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:50 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:57 -!- unixSnob [n=unixSnob@ip-94-140-188-181.reverse.destiny.be] has left #lisp 17:15:16 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:32 fusss: yeah I wrote it but you weren't around 17:19:12 adeht: I know it's lossy, but I decided to do something silly for now; (+ first-part (/ second-part 100)) 17:19:54 but parse-number was better, so i used that for now 17:19:57 -!- Guest53408 [n=x@204.8.46.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:12 will invest in something better after the demo 17:21:56 PissedNumlock: try this http://paste.lisp.org/display/93795 17:22:11 -!- simplechat [n=simple@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:24 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 17:23:15 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:19 PissedNumlock: It worked for me, quakenet does some kind of authenticating ping when you connect that cl-irc doesn't respond right to. 17:23:41 PissedNumlock: I have to run now, hope it works. 17:24:11 ty 17:24:48 I just started comparing irssi + wireshark vs cl-irc 17:26:19 kylemcg [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:58 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:28 but that does not fix it :) 17:30:37 there is one ping that doesnt get processed 17:30:46 as you said 17:30:56 borism_ [n=boris@213-35-233-194-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:32:11 -!- borism [n=boris@213-35-233-107-dsl.end.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:26 -!- mihk [n=mihk@xdsl-78-35-143-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:55 pjb [n=t@64.Red-79-149-158.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:35 PissedNumlock: cl-irc doesn't handle pings by default 17:36:24 I have a bot that kept getting kicked off because of that 17:36:50 I think it does: it adds a hook on irc-ping-message 17:39:45 although it only adds the default hooks on the connection after sending the nick and user information 17:39:53 abugosh [n=Adium@65-78-71-4.c3-0.tlg-ubr5.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:03 and that isnt the problem either 17:42:24 didn't on my version. maybe there was an update 17:44:26 'morning 17:48:15 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:49:29 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@65-78-71-4.c3-0.tlg-ubr5.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:50:36 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:04 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:42 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:23 lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.103] has joined #lisp 17:59:37 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:39 mikezor: you were right-ish 18:02:45 the pong message that gets send back is malformed 18:03:16 looked over it: Request: PONG 597418613 : vs PONG :NUMBER 18:03:56 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@203.82.92.103] has quit [] 18:04:39 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:55 PissedNumlock: the PONG should match the PING exactly for clients 18:09:11 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:40 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:23 yes I know, thats why it isnt working 18:11:58 _Fury [n=Fury@p579045B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:42 cl-irc does it wrong by adding "" as default 2nd argument to pong (while in this case it is a number) 18:13:12 trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-059-018-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:18 -!- _Fury [n=Fury@p579045B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:13:19 so you get number : "" in your reply 18:13:24 vs :number 18:13:39 _Fury [n=Fury@p579045B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:26 and I connected \o/ 18:14:55 -!- _Fury [n=Fury@p579045B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:17 _Fury [n=Fury@p579045B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:23 naten [n=naten@24-117-139-61.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:21 -!- fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 18:17:24 hm. i am googling, but maybe one can give the hint, how to print double-floats using E instead of D for the exponent (sth like *read-default-float-format* for printing). 18:17:39 <_Fury> hi 18:18:08 <_Fury> how can i subst nil in a list without destroying the list by substituting the last nil 18:18:33 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-162-71.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:19:15 _Fury: the subst replaces only the car of each cons 18:19:25 _Fury: so your terminating nil is safe 18:19:34 <_Fury> no not in clisp.. 18:19:55 <_Fury> (subst 'X nil testst4) --> (X O O X X X O O X . X) 18:20:08 <_Fury> the last nil is an X now instead of the invisible nil 18:20:30 trebor_home: (format t "~,,,,,,'e" 10.5d0) 18:20:34 scary, huh? 18:21:12 and *read-default-float-format* affects printing too 18:22:02 i think you mean: (format t "~,,,,,,e" 10.5d0) :) 18:22:04 stassats`: thanks for your advice (copy and paste of your format led to an error here) 18:22:24 there's an errant "'" in there 18:22:34 i meant ee 18:22:42 the error not in ' 18:22:49 ~,,,,,,'ee 18:23:23 ah, so. 18:23:37 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:42 in other news, format, still a beast. :) 18:23:52 still the best! 18:24:05 one does learn to love it. 18:24:46 i miss it in inferior languages 18:24:51 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:25:45 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 18:28:43 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:47 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 greetings, drewc 18:40:30 Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:41:39 The video over sime is pretty good, can't say i've watched it before. Slime can do a lot more than i've thought it could in the past. 18:42:20 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:38 and more than that! 18:42:42 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:17 Yeahl, I have a feeling I've wasted so much time in the bast by not using it for better debugging. Being able to trace, step through, and inspect symbols is something I didn't know it really did. 18:43:33 bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:56 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 18:46:19 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DC88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:48 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:47:24 -!- Bobrobyn_ [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:15 I'm starting to understand people's position about TDD a bit more with CL as well...it's really not necessary given the intimate access to the REPL 18:49:16 slime is a deep pool. 18:49:32 it rewards diving into it once in awhile to find things you didn't know where there. 18:50:29 I find that Test Driven Design is good for a certain class of projects... But there doesn't seem to be much overlap between the set of projects belonging to that class and the set of projects that I tend to work on. 18:50:33 tcr: I built a new image and killed every dependency with a fasl on my login, and my protocol error went away. i think my emacs was loading a stale fast loader. 18:50:40 Yeah, it has decent documentation too, so that's kinda how I plan to go after this library is done. 18:50:45 leo2007` [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:31 slime has decent documentation? 18:51:53 only in comparison to most lisp systems. :) 18:51:58 Dodek [i=dodek@dodecki.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:11 stassats`: A bit sparse in some areas, but yes, as Fade mentioned...compard to other stuff I've dealt with already. 18:53:07 we seem to become domain experts in whatever lisp systems we touch regularly, and forget the new-user mind which is filled with .oO(WTF?!) 18:53:30 plus, i don't know anybody, especially programmers, who like writing documentation. 18:54:18 Kinda an unnecessary evil though. That's another thing I'm planning on doing soon...I have about 4-5 different CL projects under my belt now..and not a bit of documentation :) 18:54:32 Okay, http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/sbcl-internals.pdf chapter 6 updated again. Hopefully this version is close to committable. 18:54:40 *Xach* likes writing documentation 18:55:05 *Fade* notes that Xach's systems are unusually well documented, not to mention immaculately constructed 18:55:19 Writing documentation can be fun, and it can be a chore. I'm getting a little tired of this chapter and would like to be done with it today. 18:55:36 *sykopomp* doesn't mind writing docs, but fucking hates texinfo. 18:55:40 you're one of the few dev's I know whose actual code can be considered documentation of the first order. 18:56:33 nyef: kudos on undertaking that job. 18:57:01 There were a few projects I was looking at in the past that try to automate documentation a bit to parse it from code..so you can use something like the normal documentation done on functions and apply it to other parts of the file in a format parsed by this library. 18:57:03 Fade: Thanks. 18:57:34 TDT: it sort of bothers me when people put gigantic docstrings in their source code. 18:57:39 I think it makes the source much less readable. 18:58:03 TDT: there have been a lot of projects like that in a lot of environments, but the results are rarely satisfactory, irrespective of the cleverness of the code that generates them. 18:58:20 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:58:23 sykopomp: yeah, this is outside just docstrings though, you have to tell the parser how to grab the documentation as a result, but it's supposed to be flexible. 18:58:26 python systems are particularl culpable of that sin. 18:58:38 +y 18:59:45 I like documenting for the fresh perspective it provides on some stuff you've been working on intimately. Many times it shows me places that need to be polished, rewored, rearranged, etc. 18:59:59 ...deleted... 19:00:26 Xach: *nod* 19:01:04 -!- _Fury [n=Fury@p579045B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:01:21 Heh. I'm suddenly reminded of something I read about unix history, where they were writing documentation and some of the bugs they ran into were so embarassing that they fixed them instead of documenting them. 19:01:51 yeah, the thing I've been trying to battle with is the best way to document. A PDF through LaTeX, so it's included in source good - on a project web page (which github has a lousy way of going with), through blog entries or pages that link to github, or moving everything to common-lisp.net and adding documentation there. 19:02:09 lisp systems, especially CLOS systems, seem to be so full of spooky action at a distance, they would really in general be well served for "here's how to do these five common things" types of docs 19:02:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:02:55 Fade, code examples too really - personally I find code examples far easier to read than a huge block of text describing the operation in an abstract way. 19:02:56 i think it comes down to the basic premise that human targeted data is best served in a simple text file. 19:03:18 *stassats`* often uses "common sense + autocompletion" 19:03:23 TDT: aye. I agree with that. 19:03:54 which is ultimately why I think cookbook style docs are quite useful. 19:04:11 i'm sort of surprised edi handed the c-l cookbook to younder 19:04:17 definitely agreed there, the cl cookbook on sourceforge I've gone to a number of times. 19:05:06 ASau: ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/boyer/diss/akers.pdf 19:05:24 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 19:06:05 -!- trebor_home [n=email@dslb-084-059-018-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:53 TDT: Take a look at http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ or http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/doc/named-readtables.html -- that's completely generated; drewc is working on something one that line (instead of duct-taping together like I did), and I'm probably going to switch next time I work on these projects 19:06:56 slfsantafe [n=steve@216.223.227.126] has joined #lisp 19:08:13 sykopomp: I thought that would bother me too; in reality, it's actually quite nice. Especially if you can separate interface from implementation. 19:08:17 tcr: Thanks for sharing that, I like the organization of this - I'll definitely look at the project. 19:08:47 TDT: It's not public because the kludge factor is too embarrassing; follow drewc's cl-org-mode instead 19:08:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-300.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:13 tcr: it bothers me a lot in practice when I jump into someone's code and they have a 30-line docstring :\ 19:09:17 although I'm guilty of that, too. 19:09:50 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12661.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:04 don't look at docstrings then 19:10:18 sykopomp: You can fold/unfold docstrings with Emacs 19:10:26 tcr: I looked at cl-org-mode in the past, as well as the documentation. I found it very hard to read that, a lot harder than the other docs 19:10:55 tcr: Why can't the docstring be short and straight to the point, to help readability, and the actual documentation be elsewhere? :\ 19:11:04 TDT: It's probably not perfect yet :-) I hope drewc will amend to my suggestions 19:11:17 tcr: I didn't know you could collapse docstrings, though. That's nice :) 19:11:20 org-mode makes it possible to inline org-mode functionality within the comments in a source file, which is pretty awesome, but obviously further marginalises vi(m) users. 19:11:39 sykopomp: proximity helps to keep them in sync 19:11:43 tcr: I kinda hope the docs are expanded a bit, the cl-wordpress library I'm w orking on would be used with this in my blog publishing library. 19:12:00 sykopomp: I thought so, too, but proximity helps to remind you on all the corner cases. 19:12:00 stassats`: I have to agree. 19:12:08 tcr: I defaulted to using just regexps in my test, but I'd rather use a library like this. 19:12:21 sykopomp: See named-readtables, there are lots of If condition, a condition of type bar is signalled. 19:12:40 sykopomp: It helps to be aware of all the corner case while looking at the code. 19:12:56 sykopomp: I experience that every time I have my tester hat on 19:14:11 sykopomp: That said, I actually use a DEFINE-API macro for exported functions of my API. You also specify the type there: http://common-lisp.net/project/editor-hints/darcs/named-readtables/named-readtables.lisp 19:15:44 tcr: what do you use that system for? 19:16:04 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:16:18 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:40 next step: prove correctness with ACL2 19:16:49 Fade: which system? 19:17:03 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:17:11 named-readtables 19:17:34 None, I did it because it wasn't there 19:18:06 but ought to :-) 19:18:06 commonqt uses it, for example 19:18:13 it didn't scratch an itch? 19:18:55 young people are itchy all over 19:19:24 "SSA" 19:19:26 (take that) 19:20:14 static single assignment? 19:20:58 Krystof: Do you have the time to review my latest draft of the objects-in-memory documentation? 19:21:44 not really 19:21:47 sorry 19:22:15 That's okay. 19:22:19 I figured I'd ask. 19:23:12 I'll probably commit whatever I end up with at the end of the day. 19:23:32 I'm not currently expecting to make many more changes now that it's had a couple rounds of review. 19:24:20 *stassats`* is not in the state to understand bit-twiddlings 19:25:18 There are still a few hours left in the day, so hopefully I'll find -someone- to give more feedback. 19:26:14 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:11 nyef: has pkhuong looked at it? 19:29:29 As near as I can tell from the channel logs... no. 19:29:57 pkhuong: Got a few minutes? 19:30:14 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-64-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:15 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-40-63.iburst.co.za] has quit ["leaving"] 19:36:00 nyef: which section(s)? 19:36:25 Chapter 6, Objects In Memory. 19:36:31 -!- a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:36:43 http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/sbcl-internals.pdf 19:36:45 i'm probably not your target audience, but I'll give it a look. 19:37:49 Thanks. 19:38:30 HG` [n=HG@xdslhr245.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:41 Fade: if you will understand then it's well written 19:41:28 miha [n=miha@wolfey.si] has joined #lisp 19:42:56 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 19:44:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:38 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:45:59 -!- miha [n=miha@wolfey.si] has left #lisp 19:46:30 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:37 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:48:56 gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:46 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhr245.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:54 -!- slfsantafe [n=steve@216.223.227.126] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:14 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:28 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 20:02:21 -!- p_l [i=plasek@89.248.166.201] has quit [K-lined] 20:02:59 ... p_l -K-lined-?!? 20:04:54 ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:05:15 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 wasn't there some attack on freenode which was facilitated by visiting some links 20:05:41 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:33 Yeah, involved a CTCP VERSION to distribute the links, and a flash thingy to get the web browser to connect to IRC... 20:06:52 It's also the reason why the channel is currently +R. 20:08:39 whoah.. if p_l was k-lined, any of us could be next! 20:08:40 web-2.0 in its beauty 20:08:46 to arms comrades! 20:09:42 where does the general keeps his armies? up his sleevies! 20:11:43 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:16:08 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:16:15 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:39 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:17:54 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:20 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:53 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@dhcp184-49-168-62.univ.buf.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:59 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:08 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:05 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:48 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:24:20 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:37 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 drewc: what does "if p_l was k-lined" mean? my jargon is clearly out of date... 20:25:59 slyrus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRCd#K-line 20:26:16 slyrus: his IP was flagged as spam and his connection terminated by the police bots 20:26:19 slyrus: "k-lined" is like a kickban only from the server itself. 20:26:47 ah, thanks 20:28:42 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:47 i'll email p_l and make sure he knows 20:35:33 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:52 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 20:36:03 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:36:45 prxq: thanks, reading it. 20:36:48 cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:22 fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has joined #lisp 20:40:20 -!- cools`` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:55 milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.102] has joined #lisp 20:41:07 if I need to create a variable inside of a function, 20:41:16 what is the proper way to create it? 20:41:25 clhs let 20:41:34 I see "Undefined variable"... 20:41:42 it will create a new binding 20:41:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:41:51 ok I will try that 20:41:52 fatblueduck: reading some existing code would help give you an idea. http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is also a great book for learning. 20:41:58 specbot isn't registered? 20:42:16 Xach: I'm reading Ansi Common Lisp 20:42:24 and PG uses setf 20:42:36 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 20:42:39 and setf works in slime, but slime complains 20:42:55 ANSI Common Lisp is not a great book for learning ANSI Common Lisp. 20:43:14 I'd recommend Practical Common Lisp before I'd recommend ANSI Common Lisp. 20:44:17 fatblueduck: PG is an idiot. 20:44:18 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:44:19 fatblueduck: A lot of tutorial material uses setf or setq of variables in the repl, but the result varies from implementation to implementation. 20:44:42 fatblueduck: Slime is just an development environment, what matters is your underlaying Lisp implementation 20:44:42 *Xach* is in the habit of using defparameter or defvar first 20:45:21 fatblueduck: a lot of what PG does is wrong and broken... appealing to that particular authority around here will only result in laughter and/or derision :) 20:45:24 ok... yeah I tried putting (defvar myvar) before setf but when I tried to load my file fresh today I saw this wasn't salving the problem 20:46:27 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:59 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:01 Well, it's helpful to read to see what he thinks, but it's also helpful to be able to put it in contexts with other resources. Reading it in a vacuum gives what I think is an inaccurate view of what it's like to work with Common Lisp. 20:47:04 drewc: I started reading siebel's book first and then I switched to PG's book 20:47:17 Err, isn't it a Bad Thing that the string returned by symbol-name can be modified? 20:47:18 drewc: I admit that I like PG's book better 20:47:32 quotemstr: No. 20:47:34 fatblueduck: mind if i ask why? 20:47:59 quotemstr: it's a bad thing that you are modifing it, but not that it can be modified 20:48:09 quotemstr: I think it's fine together with the restriction that you mustn't modify it. 20:48:27 Wouldn't it be better to return a copy? 20:48:28 drewc: Honestly, it's subjective. I like PGs enthusiasm and I think he gets to the point a lot faster 20:48:49 fatblueduck: ah.. so you like being pandered to and patronized :P 20:48:54 quotemstr: It would be better to copy it yourself if you want to modify a copy. 20:49:03 drewc: Siebel's book seems to hand-hold too much 20:49:15 drewc: maybe I do! 20:49:26 fatblueduck: that's fair... PCL is meant as an introductory text. 20:49:53 ACL was meant to be, well, i dunno... an introduction to scheme? 20:50:00 real men learn CL from SBCL source code 20:50:02 no... that's OnLisp .. sorry :) 20:50:19 stassats`: No, Real Men study lambda calculus. :-) 20:50:49 quotemstr: that would not help them learn lisp.... 20:50:50 studying lambda calculus won't help you in CL 20:51:05 stassats`: Are you sure that's not "real men learn CL from studying LispM macrocode"? 20:51:29 nyef: whatever is available 20:51:39 real men learn CL from the spec 20:51:50 who needs any of this "code" nonsense? 20:53:27 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:38 -!- bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:43 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:54:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:54 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 20:59:08 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 20:59:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:07:37 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:09:06 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:16 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:17 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:21 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:22 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:28 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:34 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:34 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:37 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 21:09:45 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:46 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:48 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09:51 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:54 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:00 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:00 Guest13919 [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 21:10:03 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:10:03 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:10:03 -!- Guest13919 [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:10:06 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:10:14 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:19 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:22 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:10:27 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:34 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:42 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:10:43 stepnem_ [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:54 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f175.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:33 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:12:27 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:27 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 21:19:06 heh... there's a post on c.l.l selling an XL1200 .. the sender is GLS@GLS.com .. for a second there i thought.... well it's not him. 21:19:50 a current post? 21:20:11 yeah, within that last couple hours 21:20:26 -!- nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:36 His vanity domain would be ManOfSteele.com 21:25:06 har! 21:25:09 Wonder if there's a market for appropriately licensed lisp machine replicas with custom exteriors. Like wood panels, polished brass, and gauges and stuff. *snicker* 21:25:39 mle: Steampunk LispMs? 21:25:41 *tfb* has always wanted a machine with guages 21:26:02 oh, tfb, you rouge 21:26:04 nyef: yep yep 21:26:26 You know, it could be done. The CADR sources are available, if you want to go that route... 21:26:28 you don't find the curvaceous 500lb steel refrigerator look timeless enough? 21:26:30 (and I had like 10 LispMs at one point...) 21:26:50 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12661.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:27:32 I'm waaay too amused by the idea of a big pressure meter labeled conses-per-minute. 21:28:05 -!- Sergio`_ is now known as Sergio` 21:28:06 and a steam whistle that sounds when it GCs 21:28:33 Exactly. 21:28:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:29:13 brilliant! 21:29:28 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.197.90] has joined #lisp 21:29:37 So, one meter for allocation rate, another for total memory allocated, the steam whistle... 21:30:15 anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 21:31:05 sounds like a killer app 21:31:14 can i get mine coal-fired with non-politically-correct labour included? 21:31:32 a bit of cartoon style graphics, and presto 21:32:03 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.45.218] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:56 *prxq* is reading "a gentle introduction to haskell" and finding the notation baroque. 21:33:21 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:33:43 prxq: i like certain aspects of haskell's notation... do syntax, for one, i like quite a bit. 21:34:23 other parts are indeed baroque... quite so. 21:34:31 i liked where that steampunk lispm-conversation was going 21:35:14 guaqua: Just do the case, stick a standard PC in it, and run a LispM emulator on it... or run linux + SBCL and start hacking out a full SBCL-based linux userland. 21:35:38 :) 21:36:11 cough *genera* cough 21:36:29 nyef: ... I though you were the one running SBCL on bare metal? ;) 21:36:56 Genera is a more coherent, complete environment, yeah. But how would it look on a tiny round 6" CRT or so? 21:37:04 because we all have perfectly legal copies of open genera for linux-x86-64 right? 21:37:17 mle: good point :) 21:37:46 OG and it's unix weirdisms bugs me. Shame there isn't a straight up XL1200 emulator. 21:38:09 (I even have a legal copy of Genera I could run on that) 21:38:13 drewc: maybe I am spoiled by lisp, but I see that there is really lots of syntax 21:38:21 or it seems to me, rather 21:38:29 hefner: Shouldn't be too hard to do if you've got a full set of disk and ROM images... 21:38:32 drewc: does open genera run on x86y machines? 21:38:46 prxq: not too much, really. All of the layout stuff can be abandoned for { } if you prefer. (ew) 21:38:49 did iI guess 21:39:25 tfb: alpha, I believe. And then emulated... 21:39:30 tfb: x86-64 only AFAIK. 21:39:55 mle: yes the alpha one was some kind of ivory emulation I think 21:39:59 nyef: not for a macho emulator-hacker like yourself, no. I don't have an XL machine, presumably there's some firmware in there that needs to be dumped too. 21:40:03 maybe the x86-64 too 21:40:28 *hefner* wonders how that worked, assumes an XL put the FEP in ROM. 21:40:47 all the ivory machines had no separate fep 21:41:03 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:17 tfb: sure, it ran on the Ivory. Do I mean IFEP? Anyway, the code must've been in ROM, yes? 21:41:18 in slime, is there a way to list the top-level functions 21:41:20 nyef: what you need is a sega lispm to emulate. 21:41:36 that are loaded 21:41:48 mle: Dare I ask? 21:42:06 hefner: I think so. What I meant was, no physically separate CPU like the 36xx machines 21:42:06 also, is there a way to list the api functions that a package provides? 21:42:14 tfb: right. 21:42:27 yates: what is an "API function" in this context? 21:42:29 *tfb* away eating 21:42:30 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:42:33 snearch [n=olaf@g225055193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:42:45 nyef: no. 21:42:49 drewc: the interface to the package - the exposed functions rather than the private functions 21:43:11 yates: your terminology is quite a ways off there... 21:43:33 yates: packages do not expose functions.. nor to they keep functions private. 21:43:46 yates: packages control the visibilty of symbols 21:44:22 having said that, (loop for symbol being the external-symbols of *package* when (fboundp symbol) :collect symbol) 21:45:47 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.94.81] has joined #lisp 21:46:30 drewc: i don't understand your most recent response "(loop for ..." 21:46:51 can you give me an example, e.g., cl-who? 21:47:49 (loop for symbol being the external-symbols of :cl-who when (fboundp symbol) :collect symbol). Now, got RTFM before i go all pjb on you! 21:47:58 go* 21:47:59 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225055193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:48:55 snearch [n=olaf@g225055193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:02 drewc: exactly what / where is the manual? e.g., for sbcl? 21:49:05 `26 [n=kvirc@216.252.89.228] has joined #lisp 21:49:13 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:33 -!- snearch [n=olaf@g225055193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:34 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.166.102] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:40 ok, i got it - sorry 21:50:16 minion: PCL 21:50:17 PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:50:21 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:50:25 that's not a manual 21:50:32 and i'm already reading it 21:50:34 clhs LOOP 21:50:42 right.. no specbot. 21:50:53 Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:59 i'm in chap 3 21:51:25 yates: keep reading. 21:52:30 i've got the loop - how do you get the "external symbols" out of a package? 21:53:06 by typing that form at the repl? have you tried the code i gave you? 21:53:51 ":cl-who does not name a package" 21:54:16 *drewc* gives up 21:54:30 i feel a naggum coming on! 21:55:12 don't forget to flush. 21:55:26 drewc: which part of "typing that form at the repl" didn't you mean? 21:55:42 because that's exactly what i did and i get an error 21:56:12 yates: you're an idiot! you asked me to get you the external symbols of the cl-who package, yet you don't have a package by that name. 21:57:09 is name-calling really going to accomplish anything here? 21:57:27 *drewc* resists urge to abuse ops power 21:57:31 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:05 zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:17 yates: i aplogize.. i'm not sure if you are an idiot or now. However, given the evidence i've seen, i can state with som certainty that you are ignorant and foolish. 21:58:22 or not* 21:59:02 *drewc* /ignores yates .. serenity now! 21:59:48 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:59 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:11 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 22:01:31 what a man 22:01:43 throws a spear and then runs and hides 22:02:09 -!- kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:11 *`26* ignores the guy as well, serenity is a good thing to have 22:02:25 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:02:51 Drunkenmonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-zbcgpohipuiybexe] has joined #lisp 22:02:51 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:03:07 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:31 hrmn 22:04:11 yates: you haven't loaded cl-who into your image, so the form cannot recover any exported symbols. 22:04:18 require the package, and then rerun the form. 22:04:25 -!- Drunkenmonkey [i=55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-zbcgpohipuiybexe] has left #lisp 22:04:34 drewc is annoyed because this is very basic. 22:04:42 and it's covered in PCL 22:05:18 kloeri [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 22:05:37 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:05:56 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:01 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 22:06:49 Fade: i see - thanks for the hints 22:07:13 Fade: 'require that package' is a bit of a misnomer, but i'll let it pass :) 22:08:09 I do my best. 22:08:12 lol 22:08:13 the problem is i'm straddling two tutorials: pcl and "Lisp for the Web" 22:08:34 read pcl 22:08:36 perhaps i should give up the latter and finish pcl first 22:08:38 then read other stuff 22:08:39 right 22:08:50 rdd [n=user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 yates: concentration is also helpful 22:09:06 I was quite recently standing roughly where you are, but I did listen more and speak less. :) 22:09:12 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-32-185.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 22:09:46 Fade: how recently? 22:10:17 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:10:27 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:32 about 24 months ago. 22:10:35 Hrm. 22:10:45 omg 22:10:53 it's going to take THAT long?!? 22:10:57 I still consider myself a very junior person on the lisp hierarchy of ninjatude. 22:11:25 Me too, FWIW. 22:11:26 lisp is a large subject, especially in practice. 22:11:54 *nyef* has very little clue when it comes to MOPpery, or even heavy use of stock CLOS. 22:11:57 Fade: is it worth it (in your opinion), so far? 22:11:58 yates: if you aren't actually enjoying the journey, you have the wrong learner's mind. :) 22:12:07 well, it depends really. You can use it recklessly as a magic duct tape pretty soon and get a lot done. 22:12:23 a *lot* done. 22:12:34 I've been writing software for years, and thought I was pretty good. lisp sort of amputated all that scar tissue and is in the process of making me a much better hacker. 22:12:39 Fade: i have a problem: like to eat. 22:13:13 I don't actually use lisp to eat yet, but I think the day is coming. :) 22:13:42 you could definitely pinch up some noodles between a matched pair of parens 22:13:50 or spoon soup 22:14:06 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:14:18 I think two years before productive use is excessive 22:14:21 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:14:30 sounds optimistic to me 22:14:34 no way 22:14:43 can someone please explain to me what they think "lexical" means? i've read the definitions, googled, but still don't get a good sense 22:14:48 depends on your definition of productive, I guess 22:14:50 i'm with hefner 22:14:53 oh, i was producing useful code in fairly short order, but you can do that before you actually understand anything. 22:14:56 Okay, polling again for feedback on chapter 6 of . It is unchanged since my last feedback request some two and three quarter hours ago. 22:14:59 hefner: getting thing done 22:15:29 Fade: that's what i mean 22:15:44 prxq: i can get things done in assembler, but i wouldn't say i'm productive in it. 22:16:08 austinh [n=austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:10 I was more productive than in C in about two months. But maybe that's me 22:16:23 and I did C for a long time 22:16:33 yates: anyhow, the short answer about whether it's worth it is "Yes. Without doubt." 22:16:33 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:40 but we may not have the same values. 22:16:44 i wrote a highly-optimized FIR filter in SSE2 x86 assembler in two weeks. thought it took too long. but granted i have trouble concentrating these days - a lot of personal stuff going on 22:17:02 prxq: but what are you producing? 22:17:25 prxq: i produced a lot of crap in my first two years or so of lisping, and i was doing it full time, for a living. 22:17:38 drewc: i wish 22:17:46 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:51 hell, i produced a lot of crap last year, and probably will this year too. 22:17:52 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:57 I keep getting interrupted by the projects that people want to pay me to do. 22:18:25 although lately i've been getting a little traction on handing over deliverables that were written in lisp, so who knows. 22:18:28 it's a strange world. 22:18:38 Fade: are you talking web apps? 22:18:40 lisp forgives a lot, and I think that's a big feature 22:19:07 my background is in systems integration, but lately i've been working with the web. 22:19:12 Fade: did the "there's not enough code there to do that!" demo help? :) 22:19:22 it definitely did. ;) 22:19:59 Fade: i got my first lisp contract by writing two proposals... once for lisp, and one for php as was requested in the RFP 22:20:12 i'm hoping there would be a fair amount of folks out there who want a site "done" and don't give a hoot about how its accomplished - do you think that's reasonable? 22:20:38 i said i'd support the PHP version as long as was supported the version of php we were writing in.... and the same for ANSI common lisp. 22:21:08 yates: sure 22:21:13 then i mentioned that lisp code from the 60's will still run on ansi, and php code from last year is likely broken... and also showed them the time breakdown 22:21:32 Fade: that was 5 years ago, the system is maxclaims ;) 22:21:44 drewc: hah, you should've said you'll support it as long as the version of SBCL you use is supported. 22:22:19 hefner: the original _did_ run araneida under serve-event on a 0.8.something IIRC :P 22:22:43 drewc: aye. I've been using similar tactics in rfp's 22:25:05 this is encouraging 22:26:33 yates: drewc is self employed, and I work for my own company also; finding paid full time work in lisp is more of a challenge. 22:26:58 but if you're already creating your own opportunities, you may as well execute in a language you like. 22:27:06 at least as much as feasible. 22:27:10 Fade: In my experience, lisp work finds you when you're ready :) 22:27:24 "when the student is ready, the master will appear" 22:27:26 :P 22:28:37 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:53 probably true, if strangely yoda-ish. 22:28:55 :) 22:29:46 Fade: (re: full-time work) that was why i asked re: giving a hoot. there are a ton of folks wanting sites done, hopefully that source will not dry up soon for one person if some percentage don't care how. 22:29:52 (reads-like yoda-talks lisp-does) 22:30:21 Which is better? CL/elisp-style t and nil, or Scheme-style #t and #f? 22:30:31 yes. 22:30:32 Or, why did Scheme go with #t and #f instead of the older convention? 22:30:35 quotemstr: pascal style True and False 22:30:37 quotemstr: Mu. 22:30:41 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:30:56 lol 22:31:37 quotemstr: in case it's not obvious, it's a subjective choice. I suggest you read the scheme papers to discover their rationale... 22:31:39 listen, if we start writing (human) linguistic macros to discuss lisp, all hope is lost. 22:31:45 quotemstr: I find it to be handy that nil is used as false. You may prefer something else 22:31:54 we'll have to just saddle the turtle, and move on to other things. 22:32:09 drewc: Can you point me toward the paper? Or are you talking about the Scheme specification? 22:32:30 google: sheme, history of 22:32:36 quotemstr: http://readscheme.org/ 22:32:37 *scheme 22:35:06 let me go back to my original query: is there an easy way to find the top-level functions defined at the repl? 22:35:34 defuns, i.e. 22:36:07 or is it largely moot / not done? 22:37:21 yates: drewc's loop example does that. 22:37:54 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 22:38:37 yates: all functions are 'top level' 22:38:49 you mean in the cl-user package? 22:38:51 unless they are in a labels statement or something similar 22:39:00 say i just loaded a large file and want to know what functions it provided, e.g., without parsing the file manually 22:39:05 substitute :cl-user for *package* in that loop form. 22:39:23 or :my-large-package-here 22:39:31 yates: the real question is, why do you want that? 22:39:55 sounds reasonable to me. 22:40:22 not for programmatic use, but as a user. 22:40:46 prxq: i just stated why in my most recent post 22:41:05 hefner: you mean a user of the repl loop? 22:41:17 if so, yes, that's what i meant. 22:42:03 slime provides all that 22:42:08 Fade: i did - i only get "nil" 22:42:11 yates: so maybe I have to guess where you post? 22:42:24 prxq: on this channel 22:42:44 prxq: say i just loaded a large file and want to know what functions it provided, e.g., without parsing the file manually 22:42:52 then your very large package doesn't export any symbols. 22:42:58 or you made a mistake. 22:43:24 yates: ah ok. 22:43:34 Surely the way to find out what functions a file provides is to look at the documentation? 22:44:02 yates: cl-user doesn't export anything 22:44:07 use :cl instead 22:44:17 (loop for s being the symbols in *package* :when (fboundp s) :collect s) 22:44:29 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225055193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:47 (length (loop for symbol being the external-symbols of :cl when (fboundp symbol) :collect symbol)) 22:44:50 752 22:44:53 Fade: yeah, something else seems to be going on... 22:45:22 kylemcg` [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:14 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:46:38 read more 22:46:41 talk less 22:46:50 FTW 22:48:01 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:47 No, no... LESS TALK, MORE CODE! 22:49:15 minion: chant! 22:49:15 MORE CODE 22:49:31 (Or, in my case, MORE DOCUMENTATION.) 22:51:04 minion: chant! 22:51:04 MORE DOCUMENTATION 22:51:15 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:51:50 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:02 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DC88.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:05 jbuck23 [n=jbuck@c-98-209-217-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:15 steph__ [n=steph@c-98-209-217-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:35 -!- ttt--_ [n=ubuntu@78-23-124-196.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:57 -!- jbuck23 [n=jbuck@c-98-209-217-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:07 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f754a5e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:06 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:40 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.180.226] has joined #lisp 23:03:17 -!- kylemcg [n=user@c-76-19-221-246.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:32 *Fade* switches his context to nyef's internals doc 23:03:49 hm, this is weird 23:04:08 alexandria:symbolicate is giving me "; The function was called with two arguments, but wants exactly three. 23:04:11 " 23:04:36 Ralith: Package? 23:04:54 nyef: hm? 23:05:04 Would the third argument be the package to use? 23:05:25 nope 23:05:36 its form is (symbolicate &rest things) 23:05:53 the error only occurs when the second argument is a variable, too :/ 23:05:55 Okay, that -is- wierd. 23:06:04 Compiler macro damage? 23:06:15 (symbolicate 'mass-set- 'name) => 'mass-set-name 23:06:45 (let ((name 'sphere)) (symbolicate 'mass-set- name)) => warning and 'mass-set-sphere 23:07:07 restarting lisp 23:07:10 Ralith: works here 23:07:22 Stale fasls? 23:07:55 zophy [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:59 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-106-106.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:08:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:08:02 error dissapeared. 23:08:14 must have been some combination of the above 23:09:22 it'd be cute if you could pass a package as the first argument to FORMAT and get an interned symbol as the return value 23:09:58 I think that's an implementation extension for some lisp system somewhere... Or will be. 23:10:04 that would be kind of scary 23:12:19 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:15:21 hefner: ! 23:17:05 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:20:40 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-177-93.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:21:10 Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-123-182.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:54 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:29 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-20-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:34 is there a way to clear all symbols, variables, etc., while in the repl loop? 23:34:39 slime/sbcl 23:34:48 well, not all! 23:34:54 "user-defined" 23:35:09 nevermind! 23:35:10 doh! 23:35:53 (setf *db* nil) 23:36:04 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-104.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:36:48 -!- pjb [n=t@64.Red-79-149-158.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:31 what does lexical mean? 23:41:26 "What does 'glossary' mean?" 23:42:42 nyef: indeed, 'glossary' is a Moby Thesaurus word for 'lexicon'! 23:48:09 -!- steph__ [n=steph@c-98-209-217-182.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:16 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp121-45-11-16.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:39 Could you guys help me with Drakma? I'd likt to login into website which has form with hidden values. I use 2 times http-request and it is too much :/ Is it possible this hidden value and send it (together with login/pass) without reloading website? 23:49:58 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 23:50:58 You should just be able to post to the login url (the one that POST is set to) with the user and pass being sent along. 23:51:49 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:52:11 dnolen [n=dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 23:52:39 mrSpec: that's not really Drakma related, that's just basic web know-how. You might benifit from an introduction to HTTP, get/post etc. 23:53:09 -!- anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has left #lisp 23:53:12 anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 23:53:33 TDT: ok, I'll try get the 'final url' 23:53:57 mrSpec: (http-request "http://...loginurlhere.." :method :post :parameters '(("hiddenusername" . "yourusername") ("hiddenyourpass" . "yourhiddenpass")) :cookie-jar *cookie-jar*) <-- this is the general thing I use for a project I have that uses drakma 23:54:15 -!- anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has left #lisp 23:54:17 anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp 23:54:31 TDT: heh, I tried this 23:54:35 of course you need a (defparameter *cookie-jar* (make-instance 'cookie-jar)) prior, then pass the cookie jar through subsequent http-requests 23:54:56 and that's not working for you? hmm 23:55:03 yey, It works for some websites 23:55:06 but not for all 23:55:20 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-64-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:56:10 I'd check what I mentioned originally if the post is done to another URL. If you're trying to post to the login page, that may not be correct for some web sites. some will use the same page you access to post back to for logging in, but many don't either. 23:56:41 -!- anton_vodonosov [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:54 anton_v [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has joined #lisp