00:03:51 rpg: it precludes the possibility of writing a macro that just discards its input 00:06:20 Yeah, we had a case earlier with reader-conditionals and "why don't you just use #.`?" 00:07:30 fe[nl]ix: A reader macro? 00:09:16 rpg: currently, on sbcl and ccl #.(values)3 reads as just 3. It might be very useful that #.(values) be a noop 00:09:50 I can't think of a case right now, though :) 00:09:57 It can be. One case is conditionally expanding to a clause in a typecase or similar. 00:10:29 I'm just trying to define that as not defined behavior within the standard. 00:10:47 fe[nl]ix: this seems like a porous enough area of the spec that relying on #.(values) 3 reading as 3 should be avoided. 00:11:15 Ah, 3.1.2.1.3 mentiones "evaluating such an object yields the same object as a result". 00:12:48 I think the closest parallel available is actually macroexpansion. 00:13:40 As macroexpansion and self-evaluating objects are the only places to even -mention- results within the bounds of section 3.1.2 (The Evaluation Model). 00:13:42 rpg: not necessarily. if #.(values) is a noop, it could be used as a nicer #+ 00:16:33 lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:14 adeht pasted "debug-progn hack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93712 00:17:47 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:03 ah francogrex's gone 00:18:39 Okay, my current interpretation is that the spec is arguably poorly-worded here and that the most reasonable interpretation based on use of similar wording in the context of evaluation is the primary return value from evaluating the form rather than anything more useful. 00:19:10 fe[nl]ix: FSVO "nicer." 00:19:38 nyef: My current interpretation is that this is a porous area of the spec and so should be avoided for that reason alone. 00:19:56 -!- kami` [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:31 #.(values) has an "obfuscated code contest" feel to me. 00:21:48 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:22:32 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-102.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:02 -!- dralston [n=dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:34 rpg: if a reader macro returning (values) isn't a noop, how would you implement ; and #| |# ? 00:26:13 fe[nl]ix: why need #| |# be defined in terms of #. ? 00:26:31 #. is just one case of this scenario 00:26:53 fe[nl]ix: I agree with you that your interpretation is reasonable, but I also feel it should be avoided. 00:27:03 many rely on it 00:27:52 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:29:01 example: (make-string x #| :element-type 'base-char |# ) -> should expand to (make-string x) not (make-string x nil) 00:30:49 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:44 "The reader macro function may return zero values or one value. If one value is returned, then that value is returned as the result of the read operation; the algorithm is done. If zero values are returned, then step 1 is re-entered." 00:34:12 Phoodus: where ? 00:34:17 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_2-2.html 00:34:20 step 4 00:35:33 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:35:55 fe[nl]ix: No, it's clear that your example with #| ... |# does the right thing. But even if #.(values) reliably did the right thing, I would suggest avoiding it. 00:36:31 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:36:36 fe[nl]ix: Just like (if x y) --- it's clear what it means, but (when x y) dominates it for readability. 00:36:52 cheerio -- dinner time 00:37:12 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 00:38:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.219.112] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:48:13 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:52:04 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:52:24 c|mell [n=cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust808.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:13 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-115-83.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:01:26 lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 01:03:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 01:06:54 raison [n=raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 01:08:09 I'm starting to get into declaring type specifiers 01:08:21 Is there a way to state a type of a list of symbols? 01:08:33 or do I need to declare each element as a symbol as I iterate it? 01:08:58 It's a lot easier to declare the elements as you iterate. 01:09:10 ok 01:09:19 Consider it a limitation to the expressiveness of the type system. 01:09:33 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:09:42 Which is null given SATISFYING. 01:09:51 yeah, cons can specify the types of its container, but the lack of (list *) vs (list (or integer symbol)) or whatever is interesting 01:10:08 are recursive types not supported? 01:10:36 (deftype my-list () '(cons (or integer symbol) my-list)) would work fine if it was. 01:10:40 Ralith, the expansion of a type specifier needs to terminate 01:10:53 that is unfortunate. 01:10:58 you can do a (deftype list-of-length (3) ..) specifier, though 01:10:59 pjb: Yeah, but SATISFIES is such a huge escape hatch that almost no implementation does anything with it. 01:11:04 well, we're not haskell ;) 01:11:21 Phoodus: ...? 01:11:27 nyef, does any implementation actually do anything with it? 01:11:33 in terms of support for non-terminating recursion 01:11:41 as if that would be a bad thing? 01:11:54 I would be handy 01:11:56 Adlai: There's some recentish SBCL stuff that may not be in mainline yet about satisfiies and array displacements. 01:12:04 They all use it. eg. check-type will call it. 01:12:16 pjb: Sure, but can the compiler reason about it? 01:12:18 Phoodus: Haskell does not permit recursive types! 01:12:43 nyef: no. 01:12:53 kpreid: huh, didn't know that 01:13:15 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:37 Well, to be precise, you can have recursion which is broken by having some named object (data or newtype) which has elements which are itself, if that made any sense (I'm being sloppy in terminology) 01:13:55 well, a specialized fundemental list type would be handy, in any case. 01:14:01 kpreid: data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a) this is recursive, isn't it? 01:14:03 but you can't write a just plain recursive type, even if you name it using 'type' (which is analogous to CL deftype) 01:14:12 Blkt: that's what I meant by breaking the recursion 01:14:18 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:29 note that the type there is just 'List a' 01:14:41 it's not 'List a (List a (List ...))' 01:14:59 I don't get it 01:15:15 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 01:15:21 that would be a recursive type, which is not permitted :-) 01:15:32 (declare (type #1=(list . #1#) foo)) :) 01:15:40 just so 01:15:41 anyway, offtopic 01:15:45 in Haskell? are u sure? 01:15:53 I got it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_data_type 01:16:15 but I'm probably taking you off your topic 01:18:50 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["zzzzzzzzz"] 01:21:12 I know I've seen a tree recently with optimizations based on satisfies array-has-displacement-p or similar, but I forget where. 01:23:51 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:17 good night guys 01:24:52 -!- Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-240-128.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["phreaking 24 hours day length..."] 01:24:52 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["night"] 01:25:08 pjb pasted "satisfies" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93714 01:25:33 Phoodus: I'm satisfied by this paste... 01:26:01 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:26:31 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 01:26:52 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@246.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 01:28:18 pjb: yeah, that works but I can imagine would be pretty pricey 01:28:47 well, I don't know how often those are called, especially when you crank safety to 0 01:29:00 Phoodus: you can assert whatever you want. (check-type object cons) or (check-type object (list-of integer)) is up to you... 01:29:36 I'm using these for type declarations, not for literal checks that I call 01:30:09 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:30:20 Use of type declaration information by the compiler or interpreter is implementation and optimization-policy dependent. 01:30:41 IIRC, the only declaration that an implementation is not permitted to ignore is SPECIAL. 01:30:43 Phoodus: of course, (declare (type (list-of integer) x)) will probably be a NOP. You can always add a checktype, or write your own macro that would do both. 01:30:49 so having (defun x (list) (declare ((list-of integer) list)) (mapc (lambda (item)...) list)), I don't think it would know that 'item' is an integer with that 'satisfies' definition 01:31:29 Phoodus, you can't use a non-atom type specifier as a declaration 01:31:36 Phoodus: yes, but at least you would have stated the type! 01:31:45 well, (type (list-of integer) x) 01:31:50 Now, if you have a sufficiently extensible compiler, you could explain to it that SATISFIES LIST-OF has a particular implication, but that's a bit tricky. 01:31:58 right 01:32:06 I don't think the type system is really set up for that 01:32:27 sure, the satisfies type can implement the root of a heirarichal structure 01:32:44 but its internals are still opaque to the type inference 01:33:18 As I said, you need a compiler that you can explain such things to. 01:33:33 yep 01:37:15 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 01:39:58 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-9-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:42:09 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 01:43:58 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:43:59 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-27-29.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:43:59 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 01:44:54 Ah, found it! From sbcl10.sbcl.org, jsnell's branch on tuesday morning, though the commits seem to all be Xof. There seems to be something there about SATISFIES types and arrays. 01:51:26 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:00:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:00:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 02:01:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 02:01:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-oijanlskwxsdvyqi] has left #lisp 02:06:43 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:07:00 JonSmith [n=jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:54 -!- rares [n=rares@174-26-90-76.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 02:09:06 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:09:07 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:15:37 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:49 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:50 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:57 -!- jrockway_ is now known as jrockway 02:22:17 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:19 can you get help on a function (e.g., mapchar) within slime? 02:22:44 C-c C-d h 02:23:05 though there's no mapchar in Common Lisp 02:23:12 grkz [n=qsvans@c-89f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:23:20 oh. 02:23:25 Or C-c C-d d, which pulls the docstring instead of doing a hyperspec lookup. 02:23:28 clhs mapcar 02:23:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 02:24:07 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:24:21 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:24:38 yeah, i meant mapcar. 02:25:39 oh, sweet. 02:26:34 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442389.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 02:26:37 For all I know, there could be other bindings as well, and C-c C-d as a general "slime documentation" prefix sequence. 02:28:55 there's C-c C-d ~ for format and ... # for reader macros 02:29:24 C-c C-d C-h for other bindings 02:31:47 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f663daf-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Client Quit] 02:31:53 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@c-89f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 02:32:16 -!- seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-175-103-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:22 ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:35:21 dabd` [n=user@a85-139-105-54.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 02:35:31 *Phoodus* is all low-tech and googles clhs :-P 02:35:39 if it's not easy enough to traverse throught he clhs to find it 02:35:52 Isn't that what the index is for? 02:36:08 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:17 google takes me right to it, instead of visually searching a list 02:36:30 different strokes etc 02:37:23 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:55 firefox has incremental search, which helps, though. 02:38:18 But indeed, different strokes. 02:38:30 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:38:32 (I mean, some people fondly imagine that "intellisense" is useful.) 02:38:35 yep, but mine is alt-tab, ^l, tab (now focus is in the google search), clhs , enter, click first hit 02:39:30 *stassats`* indexes in his brain 02:39:35 much quicker 02:39:38 vs alt-tab, click index, click letter, ^f , click hightlighted thing 02:39:38 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:57 Phoodus: doesn't c-k focus on google right away? 02:41:14 huh, so it does. I didn't know that 02:41:28 "know thy tools" 02:41:28 even better :) 02:42:57 <_3b> if you use firefox, / enter is easier than ^f click (may require flipping an option somewhere though) 02:43:28 C-f is easier for me to hit than / 02:43:32 involves less movement 02:43:45 there's also search as you type 02:44:04 huh, / allows you to hit enter to traverse the link you're finding, whereas ^f doesn't 02:44:43 though I don't see a way to move to the next hit with / 02:44:44 <_3b> or ' instead of / if you know you are looking for a link 02:44:48 prolly in the docs... 02:45:04 <_3b> ^g or whatever it is for ^f works with / also 02:45:22 ok 02:46:34 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:46:35 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:46 in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 02:48:02 what does the "+" designate in the "lists+" syntax? 02:48:54 one or more? 02:49:04 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:14 you'd think &rest implies that 02:49:26 and the plural 02:49:31 rest implies zero or more 02:49:36 -!- Oddity [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:43 But &optional implies zero or one. 02:49:44 umm suppose 02:50:02 But, really, it's because it's also partially a BNF grammar. 02:50:32 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:35 does it mean a vector? 02:50:53 a sequence, rather? 02:52:38 what means that? 02:52:50 lists+ 02:52:54 minion: tell me about Keene 02:52:55 stassats`: please see Keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/Keene 02:53:05 yates: no, it means one or more lists 02:53:16 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:57 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 02:56:18 why do you use the #'SYMNAME syntax? why not just 'SYMNAME? Or, iow, what is the purpose of the "#"? 02:56:30 clhs #' 02:56:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 02:56:44 (setf a 3) (defun a () 5) 02:56:47 a -> 3 02:56:52 #'a -> # 02:57:15 'a -> A 02:57:43 gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 02:57:58 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:58:07 #' is a single 2-character macro independent from ' btw 02:58:08 Phoodus: man that looks Greek. 02:59:18 i get a warning on that in slime 02:59:32 yeah, I guess (defvar a 3) would be more appropriate 02:59:51 since (setf a 3) assumes that a is already set up as a variable, making lisp warn about it 03:00:09 right 03:00:09 but it generally should still work 03:00:23 until it won't 03:00:28 A symbol has 5 things behind it 03:00:36 name, package, value, function, and property list 03:00:44 #' accesses the function 03:01:07 well why didn't you just say so in the first place? :) 03:01:26 didn't know how familiar you were with the syntax from my example 03:02:05 well, you answered directly my first question: what is the "#" syntax! thanks! 03:02:17 note that it's #' syntax, not # syntax 03:02:25 it is the function accessor of the symbol 03:03:00 ... No it isn't. 03:03:13 You can't SETF it, therefore it's not an accessor. 03:03:47 You can SETF FDEFINITION, you can SETF SYMBOL-FUNCTION, but you can't SETF FUNCTION. 03:04:10 Phoodus: do you agree with nyef? 03:04:14 <_3b> #' is a reader macro that READs as a call to the special operator FUNCTION 03:04:24 it's true that you can't set it 03:04:37 the thing is with lisp, every single word that you use has some very specific connotation in the innards of lisp 03:04:49 ... Except for "results". 03:04:53 <_3b> and it is sort of # syntax, since # is a dispatching reader macro, and one of the dispatch characters is ' 03:05:01 and people from #lisp will crawl out of the woodwork in droves to point out every esoteric implication :) 03:05:15 i'm not sure why i'd want to setf it. why is it relevent? 03:05:24 "accessor" is hardly esoteric. 03:05:46 Phoodus: as i understand it, you were simply pointing out you can set a symbol's value as well as defining its function, correct? 03:05:57 yates: There are specific use-cases for setting a symbol's function through code. 03:06:17 I showed defining it with defun, and "retrieving" (not accessing! omg!) it via #' 03:06:26 (These use-cases typically involve an explicit call to COMPILE.) 03:06:43 <_3b> yates: setf is relevent to the definition of 'accessor' in the cl spec 03:07:22 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:24 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:30 -!- SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:08:33 whereas I set the value with setf (oh no, should have been defvar!) and retrieving it just by evaluating the symbol itself 03:09:00 Defparameter, not defvar: defvar is a no-op if the symbol is already bound. 03:09:07 yeah, that too. but that's longer :) 03:09:29 But at the same time, you only need to define it as a variable the first time and then you can legally use setf. 03:09:32 so (mapcar #'say-hello (list "ACCU" 42 "Adam")) isn't "accessing" the function in the "say-hello" symbol? 03:09:33 if it's already a var, then I use setf subsequenty instaed of more defparameters 03:09:36 (Or setq, but don't do that.) 03:09:47 <_3b> yates: it is 03:09:57 yates: yes, it is passing the function behind symbol say-hello to mapcar 03:10:03 yates: It is, but the specific access is "reading". 03:10:15 then why are folks trying to tell me this isn't an accessor?!? 03:10:24 Because accessors allow writing as well. 03:10:25 mapcar is generally unaware that that function is related to the symbol 'say-hello 03:10:59 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:00 nyef: oh. 03:11:17 i think oh. 03:11:34 mapcar takes function designators 03:11:48 so (mapcar 'say-hello list) works too 03:12:15 and that would allow you to redefine say-hello in the course of the loop, and dispatch to the new version? 03:12:17 You will also (rarely) run into the case of a writer without a corresponding reader. 03:12:25 <_3b> Phoodus: not portably 03:12:32 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.203.53] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 03:12:43 -!- konr` is now known as konr 03:12:47 Phoodus: It depends on the implementation of mapcar... And possibly the implementation of function calling. 03:12:53 <_3b> one important difference between ' and #' there is what happens to local functions 03:13:11 Also what happens to setf-functions. 03:13:29 stassats`: this really frustrates me. everytime i think i understand something, someone says something to destory that! your comment about (mapcar 'say-hello list) working too did just that! 03:13:57 why type more symbols if that works too? 03:14:00 <_3b> yates: that is one reason we are so precise, to try to help people build more correct mental models of what is happening :) 03:14:15 _3b: i understand - it's just painful... 03:14:20 anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:40 yates: In this case, I would type more symbols for two reasons: It's typically faster at runtime, and it says more about my intent when writing the code. 03:15:11 nyef: then there is some difference between the two? what? 03:15:16 ... Can I use TeX math notation in texinfo? 03:15:39 yates: with 'say-hello, mapcar has to dereference the symbol into a function 03:16:04 passing #'say-hello, lisp can potentially do that at compile-time 03:16:05 yates: #' resolevs the function reference at compile and/or load time. With ', it is deferred to runtime. 03:16:20 nyef, no. Texinfo is supposed to always be representable as plain text. 03:16:31 Deferring it to runtime, I then have to worry more about redefinition. 03:16:41 Adlai: Ah. Damn. 03:16:48 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:00 ok, that makes a lot of sense 03:17:19 thank you 03:17:20 I want to discuss the base-2 log of n-word-bytes in a texinfo document. 03:17:39 And dropping to math mode would have made it simpler. 03:18:03 if that's lisp documentation, use lisp notation? 03:18:12 I think the idiomatic texinfo for that is: @unnumberedsubsubsubsubsection In which we discuss the base-2 log of n-word bytes 03:18:17 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 03:18:19 <_3b> yates: (defun a (b) (format t "outer ~a~%" b)) (flet ((a (b) (format t "inner ~a~%" b))) (mapcar 'a '(1)) (mapcar #'a '(2))) 03:18:30 Mmm... I might have to. 03:18:43 Or I could just say n-lowtag-bits, but that -really- doesn't help. 03:19:04 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@pool-74-106-86-123.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:00 strange 03:21:25 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 03:21:26 sykopomp: What's sykobot going by these days? 03:21:33 And has anybody seen sellout lately? 03:22:14 redline6561, sykobot is long gone. Efforts have been redirected to Sheeple 03:22:23 not 03:23:20 Adlai: noted. Thanks. 03:23:59 the sykobot code is still on github, if you want to dig through it (I don't recommend it. it's horrible) 03:24:03 didn't survive competition with minion? 03:24:35 stassats`, sykobot wasn't really competing with minion... more with phrik, the bot in #archlinux 03:24:40 can anyone give me a quick recommendation on which testing library to check out? 03:25:08 cools: I like 5am 03:25:14 cools: I'm partial to RT, as embodied in the SBCL contrib SB-RT, but that's because I use SBCL and thus always have it handy. 03:25:14 although it's a bit chubby. 03:25:31 great, thanks 03:25:33 At the same time, building a simple testing library is trivial. 03:26:33 cools, if you want a version of 5AM which is dependency-free, a bit less chubby, and subject to change incompatibly whenever I feel like it, check out http://github.com/adlai/Eos 03:27:12 does it include all dependencies? 03:27:16 ... How do I do a bulletted or enumerated list in texinfo? 03:28:09 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:28:11 (defpackage :retro-games (:use :cl :cl-who :hunchentoot :parenscript)) 03:28:16 stassats`, I factored out a bit some of the things from Arnesi. Currently the only chunk of code from arnesi is a pattern matcher used for the IS macro 03:28:17 -!- TR2N` [n=email@89.180.228.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:28:42 in the last list, everything except the :use is a package. what is the :use? 03:28:57 clhs defpackage 03:28:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 03:28:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:29:04 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 03:29:10 nyef, try @itemize 03:29:11 (It's a defpackage option name.) 03:29:11 a verb? 03:29:13 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@pool-74-106-86-123.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:15 Adlai: Thanks. 03:29:39 nyef: @itemize @item ... @item ... @end itemize <- bulleted list 03:29:44 nyef, if that fails, poke around http://www.gnu.org/software/hello/manual/texinfo/Lists-and-Tables.html#Lists-and-Tables 03:30:17 -!- Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:09 so is this sort of a method in which you can have a variable number of arguments? 03:31:22 Adlai: I didn't realize Eos was based on 5am. Very interesting. 03:31:29 and unordered arguments? 03:31:41 Adlai: Is there much in the way of future plans? 03:31:51 redline6561, my eventual goal is to have something the size of RT, but with an API more like 5am 03:32:17 yates: check out &rest and &key parameters 03:32:20 clhs &key 03:32:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 03:32:32 redline6561, I haven't put a huge amount of work into it yet 03:32:49 though defpackage doesn't use &key 03:33:16 Adlai: Understandable. I may be interested in trying to help at some point but my plate is definitely full right now. 03:33:25 defpackage is also a macro. Macros just take their arguments as literal and can process them however they want to 03:33:43 lukego [n=lukegorr@119.110.101.218] has joined #lisp 03:34:35 Phoodus: that's no different from functions 03:34:39 when THROWing just for the control flow effect, is it ok to (throw tag (values)) ? 03:34:48 "ok" as in "good style" 03:34:52 they're just not evaluated 03:35:24 maus [n=maus@222.253.74.87] has joined #lisp 03:35:31 stassats`: got it 03:35:43 Good morning! 03:35:56 is it unnecessary/unconventional to give feedback like "got it" in an irc channel? 03:37:08 i like "thanks/got it/it works!" replies 03:37:29 Mmm... It's nice to have closure. 03:37:35 :) 03:37:54 And I don't mean the web browser. 03:38:00 Oddity [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has joined #lisp 03:38:02 both lexical and social? 03:38:37 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:38:39 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f734773.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:48 ok, again, in (defpackage :retro-games (:use :cl :cl-who :hunchentoot :parenscript)) 03:40:04 why are ":" used in the arguments ":cl-who", etc? 03:40:34 Because they're package designators, which are string designators, and an easy way to get a consistently-cased string designator is to use a keyword. 03:41:29 Also gives some consistency with the typical use of use-package and package prefixes on symbols. 03:41:30 but since defpackage doesn't evaluate its arguments cl-who would work too and would be as easy 03:41:32 so it's like specifying a case-sensitive string? 03:41:58 stassats`: That dirties up the current package rather than the keyword package, though. 03:42:12 And at least with the keyword package you can usually get away with GCTWA. 03:42:42 then #:cl-who, the hard way 03:42:57 bah! 03:43:05 # AND : together? 03:43:12 stassats`: Why waste the symbol allocation, though? 03:43:20 Just "CL-WHO" and have done with it? 03:43:40 nyef: GCTWA them too? 03:43:51 yates: whenever you see #, it does not stand alone: read # and the following (non-numeric) character as one word, one syntax element 03:43:56 yates: An "uninterned" symbol. It has a name, but you can't find them in any package. 03:43:58 nyef: and anger modern mode users? 03:44:21 As an SBCL hacker, I can tell you categorically, there are no modern mode users. :-P 03:44:40 package:symbol, vs :keyword, vs #:symbol-with-no-package 03:44:45 yates: #:, #+, #(, #\, #* -- these all mean particular kinds of objects, but # by itself only means "dispatch on the next character" 03:44:58 And there's no need for GCTWA of uninterned symbols: They aren't usually any references to them from the package system in the first place. 03:45:08 kpreid: that makes more sense 03:45:17 what's GCTWA? google isn't helping 03:45:29 Garbage Collect Truly Worthless Atoms. 03:45:57 yates: '#:' *in particular* means an uninterned symbol. it is not just a modifier of ':' -- but the colon was used there because it has a *related* meaning 03:46:04 oh yeah, that should've been obvious! "Hey honey, can you GCTWA today after work?" 03:46:35 Indeed. But I was mentioning it more to stassats` than to yourself. 03:47:37 i actually didn't know semantics of GCTWA, now i do 03:49:07 The problem with GCTWA is that sometimes the mere -existence- of a symbol in a package is semantically significant, regardless of it having no direct references from the heap and no function, variable, or plist bindings. 03:49:34 Fortunately, such a case is rare. 03:50:02 i use find-symbol in case i know the symbol is interned 03:50:30 Anyway, it's mainly for unexported unbound unreferenced symbols, such as typos, and unreferenced keywords (as they'll recreate perfectly on reference). 03:51:02 does CLHS permit GCTWA? 03:51:34 stassats`: no. 03:52:11 nyef: it seems to me that the right answer is that GCTWA is something you 'should' write programs to not change under the effect of 03:52:58 kpreid: I tend to agree. 03:53:02 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f726c82.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:53:09 or rather, CL per se may not guarantee invariant behavior upon discarding such symbols, but it's reasonable to work under that additional constraint 03:53:13 Sure, and most programs don't change under GCTWA. 03:53:26 also, why add the restriction that it have no bindings? 03:53:39 I think no-direct-references would be sufficient 03:53:51 If it has a binding then it's reasonable to assume that someone at a REPL might try to access it. 03:53:55 because you store things under a symbol, and build up from strings to fetch them later 03:54:00 i.e. basically delete-package everything, except without the losing nice symbol prints part 03:54:30 i'm still pretty confused, in spite of your very kind and thorough explanations 03:54:52 yates: well, this is a discussion on its own beyond your questions 03:55:12 but remember how I said that every symbol has 5 things? 03:55:18 (Only 5?) 03:55:19 Phoodus: no, I mean if you go back to 22:44 EST or so 03:55:21 name, package, value, function, property list 03:55:23 Phoodus: yes 03:55:33 (well, 5 reasonably user-level things) 03:55:35 *nyef* points out that SBCL symbols don't have a function slot. 03:55:56 nyef: now that just blows my mind 03:55:58 nyef: do they have property list slots? 03:55:58 And you missed defined variable and function types, for starters. 03:55:58 semantically, I don't care what the underlying object actually happens to hold 03:56:14 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:19 yates: anyway, most of this is saying what package a symbol falls into 03:56:20 stassats`: I believe so, yes. But the function slot is emulated via the globaldb. 03:56:32 like saying "that fire hydrant doesn't actually emit water" 03:57:12 guys, i'm new. 03:57:39 -!- anton [n=Miranda@93.125.49.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:40 nyef: i just thought that property lists aren't used much nowadays and it can be accessed somehow indirectly too 03:57:46 Okay, so the simple model is that a symbol has a name, a package, a property list, and optionally a value and function. 03:58:08 right 03:58:17 stassats`: Dunno. I do admit that plists attached to symbols aren't the most common thing these days, but I have been known to use them on occasion. 03:58:21 if there are underflying implementation details that aren't really relevent to the syntax semantics, please give me the simplified explanations or i'm goint to be very very confused 03:58:24 and just declaring a symbol in your source code or in the repl automatically falls into some package, unless you use #: 03:58:44 so 'a is really "the symbol A in the current *package*" 03:58:53 ok 03:58:57 there are some shortcut syntaxes 03:59:00 not in the current 03:59:01 (a) is the function 03:59:13 in the package which was upon reading this symbol 03:59:17 (in the reader's current package) 03:59:29 or rather #'a is the function 03:59:41 ok 03:59:51 To explicitly name a symbol's package, you can do 'cl-user:foo 03:59:56 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:00:05 now, packages can 'export' symbols 04:00:13 I make a package "utils" 04:00:24 and it has basically external and internal functions 04:00:45 say I have (defun calc-things ()...) and (defun calc-things-helper ()...) 04:00:50 inside the utils package 04:01:05 ok 04:01:20 it has (export 'calc-things) 04:01:36 which means that the _symbol_ calc-things from the utils package is exported 04:01:51 ok 04:02:06 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:02:13 If my current package (say it's my-program) :use's the utils package, when I type calc-things, it's actually the symbol utils:calc-things, not my-program:calc-things 04:02:34 right 04:02:41 now, I can't say utils:calc-things-helper, because it's not exported 04:03:00 but utils::calc-things-helper (with 2 colons) can reference _any_ symbol inside a package 04:03:10 ok 04:03:39 Now, packages will bite you in things like this: (defun a (x) (case x (do-this ...) (do-that ...))) 04:03:41 this is all great info, but i still don't see exactly why you use the :cl-who in the package definition of :retro-games 04:03:52 I'm getting to that 04:03:57 oh, ok 04:04:08 It boils down to "it's easier that way" in the end. 04:04:10 see, in that example, it's working with utils:do-this and utils:do-that 04:04:31 but from outside utils, if do-this and do-that aren't exported, and/or I'm not using the utils package 04:04:36 then utils:a(do-this) will fail 04:04:37 -!- dto [n=dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:04:38 This is the medium-level description of -why- it's easier. 04:04:50 because that's actually my-prog:do-this, not utils:do-this and it doesn't equate 04:04:51 yates: it's merely stylistic preference.. one could use foobar:cl-who if such a symbol existed 04:04:51 right 04:05:03 -!- hicx174 [n=hicx174@211.44.210.50] has quit [Operation timed out] 04:05:16 *yates* is focussing on Phoodus for now 04:05:25 Phoodus: that maybe the same symbol, though 04:05:32 s/maybe/may be/ 04:06:26 Phooodus [n=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:52 so, you just leaked the my-prog:cl-who symbol into my-prog's package, which won't be GC'd without the internal implementation tricks being discussed above 04:06:57 yates: what's important is the symbol's name (which is a string), which may be equal to a package's name 04:07:02 a 04:07:34 a "package designator" can be a symbol, where it'll just use the name, a string, where it'll use the string contents to name the package, or a package itself (and maybe other things I'm not thinking of) 04:07:58 so, you can pass in :cl-user, and every instance of it will just use the exact same keyword symbol and not leak symbols into random packages 04:08:07 same thing with the utils function with the 'case' statement 04:08:20 defpackage accepts string designator, not package designator 04:08:45 if it was (case x (:do-this ..) (:do-that ..)) then you don't have to worry which package your symbols exist in; you're always using the handy keyword package 04:08:50 stassats`: oops, right 04:09:12 and :do-this will always equal :do-this, from any package 04:09:22 whereas 'do-this does not necessarily equal 'do-this from another package 04:09:24 actually, half-right, i meant for the name of the package, but package designators for :use-list 04:09:35 wait - backup 04:09:59 "you just leaked the my-prog:cl-who" - we haven't been discussing cl-who in your example - you lost me here 04:10:23 I'm talking about the defpackage (:use :cl-who) vs (:use 'cl-who) 04:10:40 the latter creates the cl-who symbol _in the current package_ 04:10:57 the latter is nonsense 04:11:16 heh, CCL actually doesn't accept package-designators in :use 04:11:29 i'm using sbcl, btw 04:11:45 in any case, I'm probably missing some edge conditions, but that's what everybody else is here for ;) 04:11:51 khumba [n=khumba@142.231.72.189] has joined #lisp 04:12:03 *yates* has to pause for 2 minutes... 04:12:11 brb 04:12:40 but who would do (defpackage foo (:use #.(find-package :cl))) in their sane mind? 04:12:57 yates: there's no reason to intern that symbol in the current package.. by the same token, there's no reason to intern it in the keyword package.. that is why I prefer to use uninterned symbols, e.g. #:cl-who 04:14:47 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.66.24.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:40 ok 04:20:54 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.74.87] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:21:03 *adeht* looks at arnesi's walker and wonders about the use of the term `consequent' for IF's antecedent.. 04:23:44 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:54 partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 04:25:28 Well, consequent should refer to the choice made by the antecedent. 04:25:39 -!- Phooodus is now known as Phoodus 04:25:52 yep 04:26:07 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:12 (if ) 04:26:18 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-19-253.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:26:24 Good morning! 04:27:05 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-252-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:09 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@119.110.101.218] has quit [] 04:27:38 A bit dubious, maybe 'acceptant' and 'refutant' or something would be better, but who really cares? :) 04:28:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:28:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:28:59 adeht: are you saying that (:use :cl-who) interns the symbol "cl-who" in the current package? 04:29:11 yates: no 04:29:23 unless the current package is "KEYWORD" 04:29:33 then why would you use #:cl-who rather than :cl-who? 04:29:53 :cl-who is the same as keyword:cl-who 04:31:13 in other words, using :cl-who interns a symbol in the keyword package, and that really isn't necessary (or preferable)? 04:31:21 right 04:33:10 so, even though :cl-who is preferable to 'cl-who (since that interns a symbol in the "current" package), #:cl-who is better since it doesn't intern a symbol anywhere? 04:34:31 when talking here I suggest you use the person-as-reader convention, rather than person-as-evaluator. 'cl-who is not a symbol then, it is a list. 04:35:39 ok, so then s/'cl-who/cl-who in my previous question. 04:35:52 yes 04:36:00 thank you 04:36:16 Phoodus: thank you for your help 04:36:54 -!- dabd` [n=user@a85-139-105-54.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:06 what keeps symbols from clashing in the keyword package when there are two or more functions with the same keywords? 04:37:41 clashing? 04:38:09 well, you said :foo interns the symbol foo in the package keyword, right? 04:38:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:38:30 clhs intern 04:38:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 04:38:32 it interns the symbol :foo in the keyword package 04:38:37 so what happens if i (defun fooa (:parm) ...) and (defun foob (:parm)) 04:38:45 yates: nothing 04:39:03 yates: the world may come to an end, since it's undefined by the CLHS 04:39:19 (or was it an error?..) 04:39:24 -!- anair_84 [n=anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:56 man this is confusing 04:41:34 stassats`: so clhs says if it already exists it returns the existing symbol 04:41:44 that's right 04:42:12 -!- Oddity [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:37 so what if i (defun fooa (:parm) (... (foob (:parm 5))...)) 04:42:51 where foob has a definition like above 04:43:07 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-229-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:16 this is not valid common lisp, but it has nothing to do with interning symbols 04:43:38 when foob is called, isn't 5 assigned to the symbol parm value? then what is that symbol's value on return for the remainder of fooa? 04:44:23 keyword symbols are constants, it's undefined what happens when constants are rebound 04:44:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:45:23 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:38 -!- mbohun [n=mbohun@202.124.72.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:48:56 can't you define a parameter in the parameter list in a defun to be a keyword list? i must have gotten the syntax wrong, but i'm hoping you see what i mean 04:48:59 keywords can't be bound to values 04:49:08 evaluating :foo will return :foo, not some other value 04:49:21 yates, I think you're looking for (defun foo (&key bar baz) ...) 04:49:22 so they're good replacements for enums, flags, that sort of thing 04:49:30 since they have global identity 04:49:48 and you call it (foo :baz 20 :bar 42) 04:50:18 (defun foo (&key baz bar) (list baz bar)) 04:50:26 (foo :baz 20 :bar 42) -> (20 42) 04:50:43 (defconstant :foo ':foo) (export ':foo) <- this is essentially what happens to keywords when you intern them 04:50:50 note that in the defun, those are normal symbols holding the value, since the keywords :baz and :bar are just value-less identifiers 04:51:45 TR2N [i=email@89-180-206-183.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 04:52:15 Phoodus: "'those' are normal symbols..." - you mean the parameters "20" and "42"? 04:52:16 the symbols don't hold the values 04:52:22 really, a lot of the "aha!" moments will be from using these yourself and banging through the code & documentation, not up-front exhaustive descriptions 04:52:34 yates: I mean baz and bar 04:52:41 the symbols are variable names, that are bound to the values 04:52:47 and you can have (defun foo (&key ((:foo bar))) bar) with (foo :foo 42) => 42 04:52:53 (the variables are bound..) 04:53:19 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 04:53:37 and even (defun foo (&key ((cl:list bar))) bar) 04:54:02 so keyword parameters aren't necessary keywords 04:54:13 right, but in the common case they are 04:54:28 Phoodus: i've foudn that, with some languages, i can skip the formalities and start "banging" code, but with others in which the syntax is beyond a certain complixity, i am just lost. e.g., C++ was too complex - i had to get the formal definitions right first before coding anything significant 04:54:30 stassats: I think the right term isn't "keyword parameters" even.. it's "key parameters" 04:54:52 clhs 3.4.1.4 04:54:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm 04:54:53 but C i learned practically without a book 04:55:11 have you read Practical Common Lisp? 04:55:18 or any of the commonly recommended Lisp books? 04:55:18 adeht: clhs calls them "keyword parameters" 04:55:19 in process 04:55:35 stassats: interesting.. I remembered differently 04:55:56 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:56:04 what led me here tongight was an attempt to plow through http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm 04:56:15 but i agree that it's a misnomer 04:56:43 yates: you can get pretty far in learning lisp just from staying in package cl-user (or common-lisp-user, however it exposes it to you) and using :keywords as valueless global identifiers 04:57:20 slime puts me in CL-USER 04:57:21 yeah, the mapcar say-hello stuff 04:57:25 yes 04:58:06 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:58:07 i'm very uncomfortable with trying to plow through syntax in which i have no freaking idea what it means 04:58:17 yates: you should be 04:58:20 right 04:58:30 there's just lots and lots and lots of connotations and implications 04:58:48 as the common lisp specification goes quite deep in terms of what a starting user needs to know 04:59:09 so would you suggest completing pcl before the url article above? 04:59:25 nto necessarily 04:59:53 #' and keywords are questions you'll hit no matter where you're tutorialing from 05:00:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:00:06 *Phoodus* coins a new verb 05:00:15 *Phoodus* verbs a noun 05:00:32 isn't that like a gerund or something? 05:01:25 I guess 05:01:27 no, that's the opposite - nouning a verb 05:01:41 "running is good for the heart" 05:01:52 OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-12-239.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:01:58 -!- khumba [n=khumba@142.231.72.189] has quit ["Oyasumi."] 05:02:07 "Verbing nouns weirds language." 05:03:17 in any case, as I said before, asking questions here will tend to get you very complete, specification-level answers 05:03:40 even though as a beginning user, you can get by without all the depth and various ways things are used, and various configurations that affect usage 05:04:27 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:39 in any case, #' returns a symbol's function, and :keywords are a consistent way to pass literal identity-comparable symbols globally (ie, safe across packages) 05:08:28 i feel like i'm dragging you guys through the mud of my mind, but i still have a question or two... 05:08:40 adeht: 05:10:00 adeht: "the symbols are variable names, that are bound to the values" - but that's exactly my point (i think - if i'm thinkging right) 05:10:38 -!- redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:10:39 did you mean the symbols bar and baz? 05:10:40 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 05:10:46 the variables are bound to values, not the symbols. 05:11:37 isn't a variable a symbol? 05:11:42 No. 05:11:53 the value part of a symbol? 05:11:58 Symbols are used to name variables. 05:12:18 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:12:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 05:12:34 when it gets down to machine code, isn't a symbol a structure with elements like "value", "function", etc.? 05:12:38 symbol-value is used by special variables. 05:12:44 note that languages like C do not have symbols. The words used in your source code disappear after compile-time 05:12:52 Consider lexical variable first. 05:13:19 (let ((a 10)) (let ((a 20)) ...)) 05:13:53 Here a is just a name and has no relationship to 'a except that they have the same name. 05:14:35 no relationship to the (defvar a ) 05:14:56 or the "global" 'a 05:14:59 well, if there was (defvar a) then there would be a relationship 05:15:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:15:18 evaluating "a" inside the let would not do (symbol-value 'a) 05:15:29 it would access the variable defined in the 'let' scope 05:15:44 I think that it is unfortunate that symbols were overloaded to be effectively dynamic variables. 05:16:36 so symbols and variables are distinct "objects" ("objects" in the colloquial sense)? 05:16:37 while doing (a 1 2 3) would call the (symbol-function 'a) from the global scope 05:16:58 Phoodus: if it's not shadowed by local functions 05:16:58 i.e., a variable isn't the value part of a symbol? 05:17:06 Yes. A variable is a binding between a name and a value. 05:17:07 stassats`: right, that wasn't part of the example :) 05:17:10 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:17:18 We use symbols for names here. 05:17:20 Symbols are not like variable names in C 05:17:27 Phoodus: neither was A function 05:17:37 stassats`: true 05:17:49 Symbols have their own identity at runtime 05:18:29 although, in (let ((a 10)) ... a...), how much of 'a survives that after compilation? 05:18:52 depends 05:19:08 You should assume that the answer is 'none'. 05:19:49 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:55 right, I'm playing with disassemble, and none of the source code ends up with a reference to the symbol 'a 05:20:06 ...asm source code... 05:20:20 Probably the debugger can find out. 05:20:35 balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-139-100-96.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:15 so anyway, in a function or lambda, (defun foo (a b c) ...), the 5 fields of 'a, 'b, and 'c don't really come into play 05:22:41 so... (defun foo (&key baz bar) ...) interns the symbol key in the keyword package; then at function call time, (foo :baz 20 :bar 42) binds the values 20 and 42 to the VARIABLES bax and bar? 05:22:43 the evaluation of a, b, and c inside the body reference the lambda parameters 05:23:03 s/symbol key/symbols bar and baz/ 05:23:17 that sounds right 05:23:31 s/bax/baz/ 05:23:32 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-187-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:23:53 Ding! 05:24:10 why don't they just come out and explain all this up front? 05:24:12 s/in the keyword package/current package/ 05:24:34 well, bar and baz exist in the current package, and :bar and :baz exist in the keyword package 05:24:47 It's pretty standard for lexical variables. 05:24:57 where the symbols bar and baz in the current package are used as the variable names 05:25:08 wait! 05:25:09 and :bar and :baz are used as flags in the parameter list 05:25:18 i thought we just established that variables aren't symbols! 05:25:34 _variable __names___ 05:25:37 variables are a bad way of thinking of things. 05:25:38 the symbol bar evaluates to a variable in that context 05:25:59 the variable itself is unaware of symbols that refer to it. It's basically a C-like variable 05:26:02 The symbol bar names a variable in that context. 05:26:27 *stassats`* thinks in terms of bindings 05:26:29 isn't a variable name just a string? 05:26:38 yates: no, variable names are symbols 05:26:55 and that symbol by default is interned in the current package 05:27:08 That symbol was interned when the source was read. 05:27:19 (speaking of bar and baz used inside the function, not :bar and :baz that the caller uses) 05:27:27 That's irrelevant to the variable. 05:28:17 so are you guys saying that, while a variable name is a symbol, the value part of a symbol is not the value of the variable named by the symbol? 05:28:32 not in a lexical scope (ie, let, defun, lambda) 05:28:54 in a lexical scope, there are local variables 05:29:04 in the global/dynamic scope, the symbol has a value 05:29:23 yates: Do you know C? 05:29:27 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f663cbe-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 05:29:27 Zhivago: yes 05:29:31 but lisp uses the same syntax for both, which is a source of confusion 05:29:32 very very well 05:29:41 yates: char a[3]; what is the type of a? 05:29:50 a pointer to a char 05:29:55 :( 05:29:56 yates: Not very well, then. 05:30:03 yates: Ok, in C variables have linkage. 05:30:19 then tell me what you think it is 05:30:23 yates: You can think of lexical variables in C and CL as having no linkage. 05:30:29 yates: char[3], naturally. 05:30:41 yates: Things with no linkage do not need to be looked up dynamically. 05:30:56 yates: Things with external linkage need to be able to be looked up after compilation (e.g., at linkage). 05:31:24 yates: Dynamic symbols do this in CL -- you can look them up dynamically by name, which is what (symbol-value 'a) does. 05:31:30 yates: Does that help? 05:31:57 would someone look at my repl activity? http://www.pastebin.ca/1761176 05:32:16 Zhivago: we can't go forward until we agree on what the type of a is. 05:32:23 is there something wrong with the way I'm using (member *)? 05:32:28 yates: What is sizeof a? 05:32:38 it will in fact be the size of a poitner 05:32:43 yates: wrong 05:32:44 yates: Wrong. Test it. 05:33:06 chris___1: (member ... :test #'equal) 05:33:07 yates: If you like I can teach you about arrays in ##c. 05:33:08 i know for a fact i can pass a, as you've designated it, into a function parameter specified as char* 05:33:19 yates: I did not ask about that. Go to ##c. 05:33:24 yates: it's called "conversion" 05:33:36 chris___1: '(MD) is not a member of the list, but 'MD is 05:33:53 chris___1: The list would have to be ((MD) (SNR) (MSR) (JR)) for your member test to work 05:34:46 and :test #'equal 05:35:06 yes, true. Because #'equal will deeply compare the contents of sublists 05:35:20 (I don't think just saying "you need :test #'equal" helps much...) 05:36:06 but the default comparison should work with (member 'MD *affixedtitles) 05:36:11 since you're just comparing symbols 05:36:12 well, it will help, because otherwise (member '(MD) ...) won't work, how do i know what's the desired result 05:36:28 GrayGnome [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 05:37:23 -!- Summermute [n=Summermu@c-68-55-210-226.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37:28 Phoodus: thanks for the explanation 05:37:31 also, if you want to see the value of a variable, you can just type *affexedtitles* into the repl, you don't need to wrap it in a list 05:37:58 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-33.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:38:08 Phoodus: ok 05:38:25 chris___1: the same applies to (list '(md is ...)) 05:38:32 -!- GrayGonme [n=MuneNoKa@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:38:58 right, '(MD is a member) is a term you can return on its own 05:39:01 '(md is a member) 05:39:15 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-33.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:20 you can also just type (member 'MD *affixedtitles*) to view the result from that 05:40:40 (member will return everything after & including a match if it finds one, or nil if it doesn't) 05:41:03 (member 2 '(1 2 3)) -> (2 3) 05:41:10 (member 4 '(1 2 3)) -> NIL 05:42:37 what a strange slime/sbcl bug 05:42:53 it doesn't respond to interrupts, how am i gonna debug it 05:43:19 that seems to be SOP on windows, I presume due to the lack of threading 05:43:33 no, that's on linux 05:43:55 that's what strange 05:43:59 yep 05:46:07 i am wrong about sizeof() - yes it returns 3 and not 4 (not the size of a pointer) 05:46:41 sizeof(a) 05:47:27 that's because a is an array of 3 chars, not a pointer. 05:47:47 yates: Good, so you realize that it cannot be a char *. 05:48:04 i realize that sizeof(a) is 3 05:48:20 yates: Then you realize that it cannot be a char * since there isn't space to store a char * there. 05:48:35 yates: The simplest way to understand it is that the value of an array is a pointer to its first element. 05:48:40 yates: Does that help? 05:49:20 no. 05:49:33 you can't store anything there 05:49:33 Then come to ##c and I will explain it in great detail. 05:49:51 You can store three chars in a space of size 3 ... :) 05:49:52 try a = 4 05:50:21 yates: Wrong channel. 05:51:14 Zhivago: i "cannot send to channel" 05:51:21 yates: Register. 05:51:45 i am 05:52:36 well, wait - lemme restart my client. back in a moment 05:52:38 -!- yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:52:39 Ah, were you being an idiot earlier? I will remove that ban. 05:56:46 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-66-1.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:58:27 sidewinder128 [n=sidewind@189.137.203.68] has joined #lisp 06:01:56 -!- sidewinder128 [n=sidewind@189.137.203.68] has left #lisp 06:02:26 -!- liar [n=liar@clnet-p09-185.ikbnet.co.at] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:03:16 Phooodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:13 -!- Phoodus [n=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:12:19 -!- chris___1 is now known as fatblueduck 06:13:32 Phoodus: thank you that helped me with lot's of other related problems I was having 06:14:06 np 06:14:25 -!- OmniMancer1 [n=OmniManc@122-57-12-239.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:32 -!- Phooodus is now known as Phoouds 06:14:35 -!- Phoouds is now known as Phoodus 06:22:31 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 06:25:25 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["sleeeeep!"] 06:26:37 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.191] has joined #lisp 06:32:01 lukego [n=lukegorr@115.133.117.74] has joined #lisp 06:34:11 woohoo! no meetings next week so Teclo Ltd will relocate to a hammock on a nearby island for some trace analysis programming. Koh Lipe or Langkawi methinks :)))) 06:37:28 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 06:40:01 awesome 06:41:15 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 06:44:03 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:02 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit ["sleep"] 06:51:21 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 06:52:49 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:53:52 bisecting sbcl is slow 06:54:00 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:55:10 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 06:57:10 zmbMonkey [n=zmbmonke@99-61-160-133.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:50 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:02:05 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 07:03:06 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:14 FAT32 must die. does not support the file sizes I have :) bbl 07:03:16 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@115.133.117.74] has quit [] 07:05:04 heh. FAT32... why does anything other than embedded stuff still use it? :D 07:08:05 dabd` [n=user@a85-139-105-54.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 07:09:20 because it's the lowest common denominator and easiest interchange format :-P 07:09:31 multipart archives are your friend, I guess 07:09:59 Phoodus: pretty sure that's been ntfs for several years. 07:10:17 *stassats`* haven't seen ntfs for years 07:10:46 well, embedded devices with MS software now use exFAT (which afaik shares only the name) 07:11:10 FAT32 is understandable for stuff like digital cameras etc. 07:11:44 *stassats`* has fat32 on flash cards and mp3-players 07:11:48 If you're running fringe OSes like Amiga or BeOS, I wonder what the availability of NTFS there is. I'm sure FAT32 is 07:12:06 Ralith: OSX can't write NTFS (not out-of-the-box at least) 07:12:24 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:38 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:56 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 07:16:37 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-83-187.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:19:05 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:21:09 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.196] has joined #lisp 07:22:46 if only exFAT was not locked up by MS... 07:23:50 jdz: it can do it out of the box by flipping some switches in SL, but it's not stable enough, so yeah :P 07:24:01 poet [n=poet@ppp-70-225-160-21.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:46 ntfs-3g is also kind of problematic for embedded use (all those fuse-induced context switches are expensive) 07:25:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 07:25:41 (for embedded linux use, that is) 07:28:23 my dad's name is fat32 07:29:43 you'll never guess my mom's name 07:30:45 gertrude matilda 07:32:43 *Phoodus* abstains from making reiserfs jokes >:-) 07:33:46 wow 07:34:04 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-64.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:16 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756705.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:16 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 07:34:23 Kludgy [n=therealk@S01060018f85956c8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:44 -!- dabd` [n=user@a85-139-105-54.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:12 -!- dabd [n=user@a85-139-105-54.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:55 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:36:47 -!- Kludgy [n=therealk@S01060018f85956c8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:36:51 didn't the reiserfs guy kill his wife and is now in jail? 07:37:07 yeah 07:37:16 reiserfs aka murderfs ;) 07:37:40 who knew... 07:38:04 maybe the code contained clues 07:38:25 that joke is outdated 07:38:34 very much so, but quite appropriate :) 07:38:59 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:41:23 trittweiler: are you here? 07:41:58 Reaver [n=User@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:42:02 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:48:33 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:50 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:00 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:20 splittist [i=3ecbc0a2@gateway/web/freenode/x-vxkihegvityejoup] has joined #lisp 07:50:23 morning 07:52:17 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:52:20 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:43 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:53:01 good morning 07:53:04 evening 07:53:04 morn 07:53:55 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 07:54:45 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]"] 07:58:50 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:38 nostoi [n=nostoi@177.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:48 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-224-32.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:16 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-35-82-250-229-252.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:38 argh 08:08:53 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 08:08:57 I've got a macro-writing macro, and need to figure out how to have the return value be a backquoted list with commas in it 08:09:10 I'm sure I've done this before, but can't remember where to look up how I did it 08:11:06 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@177.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:11:43 [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-64-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:11 ah, nvm, got it 08:13:16 '(,',( etc 08:14:52 *stassats`* got finally stumped on a deadlock in sbcl 08:16:14 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:33 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:34 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:21:37 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 08:22:09 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.166] has joined #lisp 08:22:20 eve/morning 08:23:36 good afternoon! 08:24:08 Just catching up here, but I like ':parameters (parameters parameters)' from Xach's megamid (: 08:27:40 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.66.196] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:29:11 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 08:30:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:31:42 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:25 -!- Xantoz [n=hejhej@c-8bb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:17 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:33:40 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 08:39:05 maus [n=maus@222.253.57.147] has joined #lisp 08:39:41 Good afternoon! 08:40:11 splittist: ...shudder... makes me think of Ballmer's "developers developers developers" schtick... 08:40:58 "lisp-2 lisp-2 lisp-2" 08:41:11 :D 08:43:38 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:47:40 -!- zmbMonkey [n=zmbmonke@99-61-160-133.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:49:08 -!- Reaver [n=User@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:48 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:49:59 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 08:50:42 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 08:51:13 trebor_d` [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:07 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:53:16 -!- trebor_d` is now known as trebor_dki 08:53:46 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:54:03 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:33 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:15 pr [n=pr@p579CA4A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:18 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:24 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:39 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:14:16 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 09:15:05 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:51 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-3.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:18:53 trebor-dki pasted "problems tracking down the arithmetic error, can someone give me an advice?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93726 09:19:36 1. compile with debug 3 2. look at the backtrace? 09:20:18 but perhaps most of the things are inlined 09:20:41 ok, i'll retry this (it didn't help the last few hours, but maybe i try again) 09:21:13 next time don't write 20-stories functions 09:21:15 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:23:08 do you mean the for-s? i tried to serialize the actions in order to see where the error happens. i do not know otherwise (till now). 09:23:34 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 09:23:38 i mean everything 09:23:43 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:59 sorry i do not get the point. should i have split it up to several functions / or not used loop? 09:27:12 it's a common practice to split complex things into more simpler entities about which you can easily reason 09:29:06 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 09:33:33 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:33:37 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-76-34.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:35:21 The traceback in my SLIME debuger only goes back 20 steps. Is there a variable I could use to extend that number? 09:35:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:51 jtza8: you can press > to unfold it all 09:36:01 ah :) 09:36:06 Thanks 09:36:45 hmm... seems to be an SBCL thing then... 09:37:07 trebor-dki annotated #93726 "is this 20-stories-function?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93726#1 09:37:34 jtza8: perhaps the universe wasn't yet created past these 20 frames 09:37:49 It's allways 20 frames. 09:38:15 It might have something to do with the fact that I'm using the SIGIO mode. 09:38:37 Thing is, that gets in the way. 09:39:00 (seemingly) 09:39:13 But it shouldn't 09:39:29 I mean, the SWANK code might be getting in the way. 09:39:32 ? 09:40:05 it shouldn't 09:40:22 Yes. 09:40:58 well, you can do M-x slime-toggle-debug-on-swank-error to uglify backtraces 09:41:21 Hmmm.... 09:41:30 with swank guts 09:43:05 That function doesn't seem to exist. 09:43:08 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:43:14 your slime is too old 09:43:20 then 09:43:27 Might be... 09:43:33 what i do not understand is, that if (a=0.0d0 b=0.5d0 c=0.5d0) how can i get an error in a statement like this (and a (< 0.0d0 a (min b c)))? 09:43:49 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:44:11 stassats`: I'll report back when I've finished updating it... 09:44:25 (i get those values for a, b, c from debugging code directly above the (and ...)-step) 09:45:04 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:22 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:47:27 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 09:48:44 stassats`: right the function works now... Thanks. 09:48:46 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 09:49:05 works as you want it work? 09:53:58 -!- fatblueduck [n=chris@71.104.235.97] has left #lisp 09:54:41 mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:55:13 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:55:29 -!- sadiquea is now known as sdqali 09:57:45 jtza8: that function is for preventing catching slime-internal errors, but instead making them go into the debugger 09:57:53 jtza8: there's no point you should be using it 09:58:32 but it makes your backtrace larger! 09:58:52 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.102.65] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:05:28 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:54 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 10:07:36 stassats`: that should be considered as a feature? 10:07:48 s/as// 10:08:21 jdz: i don't think so, but jtza8 was complaining about small backtraces 10:10:33 argh, again... sbcl'ls fasl loader is a PITA when a symbol is not found (due to package/redefinition issues at compile time). all it says is: "The name "HU.DWIM.QUASI-QUOTE" does not designate any package." from (SB-FASL::FOP-PACKAGE) and now i'm stuck with no more info 10:11:44 any idea how to get a bit more info? like the name of the symcol? 10:11:57 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-96-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:12:48 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229066181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:15:23 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:19:47 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:23:42 ericheel [n=eric@82.110.55.131] has joined #lisp 10:25:43 use your source analyzer to go through the source and look which symbols are from that package? 10:28:00 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:28:00 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:29:46 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:29:46 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 10:30:13 you mean grep the codebase? :) 10:30:24 i did that because there were only a few definitions in that file 10:30:30 def.*foo helped 10:30:48 but i've spent quite a bit of time struggling with this last time 10:31:16 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:31:16 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:31:44 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:31:44 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 10:32:28 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@dhcp7.nlib.ee] has joined #lisp 10:33:13 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:33:13 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:34:31 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:37:04 Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:38:36 benny` [n=benny@i577A18DB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:39:48 grep will only work if you're not doing shadowing tricks 10:41:01 you can READ in the source, then traverse the source and look for symbols whose symbol-package is hu.dwim.quasi-quote; you've got a working source reader already so that feature should not take too long to hack up 10:44:55 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:46:46 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 10:47:01 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:47:01 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 10:47:11 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:48:20 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:48:20 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 10:48:32 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:49:08 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:49:20 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:49:23 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:50:48 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:52:19 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1BA3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:05 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:14 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:59:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:00:27 -!- balooga [n=00u4440@adsl-99-139-100-96.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 11:02:25 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.195.190] has joined #lisp 11:04:15 i get sb-bsd-sockets:unknown-protocol , protocol not found "tcp" error when slime tries to start swank server 11:04:36 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:04:39 any idea? 11:04:51 up to date slime? 11:04:55 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:01 and up to date sbcl? 11:05:24 both are up to date 11:05:41 what versions? 11:05:51 i mean sbcl is the released binary, slime is the current released tarball 11:06:02 1.0.34 11:06:08 current released tarball? there is no such thing 11:06:35 you have to get slime from cvs 11:06:54 sorry i meant the cvs snapshot 11:07:37 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 11:07:47 on linux by the way 11:07:49 tiny core linux 11:08:35 can you paste a backtrace? 11:10:51 i thought it is something spesific to my hardware at first, since the ethernet card has some problems, (the same os btw, it works on usb) but it did the same at the other laptop, so it doesn't seem to be related to hardware, i think it maybe related to os, but i'm not sure 11:11:20 first i'll try with the cvs snapshot i got know, than i'll try to send a backtrace 11:11:40 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 11:14:29 RaceCond1tion [n=RaceCond@lugejad.nlib.ee] has joined #lisp 11:15:05 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:15:36 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 11:15:51 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 11:16:24 knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has joined #lisp 11:16:37 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 11:19:32 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:20:52 rdd [n=user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 gibranian pasted "protocol not found: "tcp"" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93731 11:21:33 i can't have a backtrace 11:22:04 i don't know how to get in except the way slime shows automatically 11:22:06 you can't or you don't know how to get it? 11:22:08 this is the message 11:22:14 i don't know 11:22:20 type "backtrace" 11:22:52 woow nice 11:24:07 but don't paste, this is enough 11:24:28 but the problem is the machine i'm having problems doesn't have a network connection, i may search if there is something spesific to search or i can open the os in this machine and send the backtrace from this one, since it gives the same error on every machine 11:24:37 do you have /etc/protocols? 11:25:08 -!- rey_ [n=ikke@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:25:22 hmm, nope 11:25:28 here's your problem 11:25:50 so what should i do to get the protocols? 11:26:40 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@dhcp7.nlib.ee] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:27:43 i don't know, your distribution should worry about it 11:29:18 you can steal it from somewhere, though 11:29:31 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:02 from http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/n/netbase/netbase_4.34.tar.gz for example 11:30:02 -!- devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-151.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [] 11:30:16 i'll make a small search, it is strange not to have tcp and udp protocols in the os, there should be somewhere in the os repos to get them 11:30:44 oh, thanks :) 11:31:39 you can take /etc/services from there too, if you don't have it 11:31:57 *coyo* waves, "hey guys, i was wondering about irc libraries and frameworks already written for clisp?" 11:32:17 specifically for clisp? 11:32:29 minion: cl-irc? 11:32:29 cl-irc: cl-irc is an IRC networking library written in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-irc 11:32:36 specifically for common lisp, yes 11:32:41 :O 11:32:48 thanks, stassats 11:32:52 -!- RaceCond1tion [n=RaceCond@lugejad.nlib.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:52 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-3.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:32:59 clisp and common lisp aren't synonyms 11:33:02 minion: clisp? 11:33:03 clisp: CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany. http://www.cliki.net/clisp 11:33:46 oh 11:33:49 my bad... 11:33:59 *coyo* is new to lisp 11:34:40 *coyo* tends to use sbcl, which compiles to machine language 11:34:45 iirc 11:34:54 it does, yes 11:35:04 this is a good choice 11:36:50 so yeah, i was thinking of forking eggdrop for multi-network support, because the devs refuse to support it, but then thought, \"you know what? what the heck, may as well write it from scratch, and pick an awesome language while i'm at it, and since cl can run as fast as c sometimes, i may as well code an ultimate channel management bot\" 11:37:18 i was going to learn cl anyway 11:38:17 stassats: where was that gentle guide to cl book located again? 11:38:28 minion: gentle? 11:38:29 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 11:38:31 i was going to start with that 11:38:34 thanks <3 11:39:32 -!- dys` is now known as dys 11:40:11 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.50.23] has joined #lisp 11:45:31 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-64.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:45:44 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 11:48:00 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.23] has joined #lisp 11:50:19 maybe someone has additional hints for me. i get continuable errors (floating-point-overflow and nil-is-not of type real). if i continue, it seems that everything works. i did declare/proclaim (optimize (debug 3)) in all functions and do not use (commented proclaim out) inline functions. at each (relevant) step in the functions of the backtrace i inserted code to store all values needed for the following step. but i still do not see 11:50:19 anything wrong (in the debug-symbol is the location before the error and the values, but they are ok). what can i do to analyze such continuable errors? 11:52:19 -!- Guest61248 [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:41 the offending values should be in the error or the stack nearby... 11:52:48 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:53:42 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-10-38.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:54:07 cmm- [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has joined #lisp 11:55:32 jdz: you mean in backtrace 0: 0: (SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-< 0.5d0 0.5d0)? 11:58:38 somecodehere [n=ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 11:58:40 jdz: doing a (setq *debug-vals* (list arg1 arg2 arg3)) before using those args in the next step does not work as intended? (printing would be tooo large) 11:59:16 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@109.64.24.30] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:29 trebor_dki: what's *debug-vals*? 11:59:31 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-109-64-24-30.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:37 oh, nvm 11:59:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:01:28 trebor_dki: what do you mean "printing would be too large"? aren't those values numbers? 12:02:03 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 12:02:22 jdz: yes, but i evaluate some equations with random parameters, and only from time to time (maybe after 1e6 tries) i get such an error. 12:03:16 so i store the args into a special-symbol in order to only print its values after an error / in the debugger. 12:03:50 _Fury [n=Fury@p57904B85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:57 <_Fury> Hi 12:04:46 trebor_dki: you don't have to store anything in special variables because all the values should be on the stack 12:05:08 <_Fury> Is there a lisp funktion, that can change all occurs of one element with an other element? 12:05:19 trebor_dki: it's safer to work with offending values derectly instead of values you think are the offending ones 12:05:57 stassats`: copying the protocol file to the etc worked, you are a hero :D thanks 12:06:04 _Fury: try subst 12:06:15 <_Fury> ok i will thx 12:06:28 jdz: when you say stack, you mean the values i see in the debugger (pressing enter in the backtrace), right? 12:06:31 would copying the services be necessary or did you suggest that just in case? 12:06:39 trebor_dki: yes 12:06:48 <_Fury> thanks jdz! thanks very much! 12:07:03 trebor_dki: you can also evaluate any code in the scope of a specific stack frame 12:07:45 CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.50.163] has joined #lisp 12:07:52 jdz: those values are absolutely ok, i do see no problem there (no large number, just 0.50d0 before doing a (min 0.50d0 0.50d0) ) 12:08:58 jdz: anyhow i do not understand why retrying works/continues. 12:09:21 gibranian: i don't what uses it, but it certainly wouldn't hurt 12:10:24 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-183-115-128.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:25 clhs decode-float 12:10:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm 12:10:30 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:10:36 Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-240-128.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 12:11:52 i used the special-symbol to be sure where the error happens, but all values are the same (backtrace, stack, special-symbol) and i see the next line and still do not see any problem there. http://paste.lisp.org/display/93726#1 (original version), http://paste.lisp.org/display/93726 (error message and use of special symbol) 12:13:37 and why on earth does it continue as if there was everything ok, when i do "retry" 12:14:18 trebor_dki: did you read the restart description? 12:14:43 *trebor_dki* re-reading 12:14:59 trebor_dki: floating-point-overflow is thrown when the exponent part of the number grows too large 12:15:09 trebor_dki: so you can use decode-float to check your numbers 12:15:34 (i just read that in the spec) 12:16:55 thanks i will re-read that in the spec, nevertheless i limitted all numbers to be <1.0d3 to be sure nothing like this happens (to be removed later for sure). 12:17:06 easyE [i=[64yBOl6@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 12:18:40 trebor_dki: you know, sprinkling your code with random assignments to global variables is not the best way to gain insight into problems... 12:19:55 trebor_dki: if you insist on relying on your assignments, try macroexpanding your loop to check if the assignments are even in the places you expect 12:20:34 trebor_dki: but anyway using the backtrace is better 12:22:46 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:51 trebor_dki: if you want to find the real cause of error, not an imaginary one... 12:22:52 jdz: sorry, i do not insist in nothing, because i know i am a lisp starter. i really try to use the backtrace (using (optimize (debug 3))). but i could not believe that the error should appear at the position slime shows me (ok, the special variable says the same) 12:23:03 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:25:09 it seems to be such an easy form and nothing makes me understand, why it does not work and worse of that, why on earth a re-evaluation just works. 12:27:01 trebor_dki: if your restart is the same that on the lisppaste i could tell you; but i already asked you to read it yourself. 12:27:32 rswarbrick [n=rupert@137.205.222.236] has joined #lisp 12:30:21 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:01 -!- [1]Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-64-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:18 *trebor_dki* re-re-reading decode-flat and re-re-evaluating (decode-flat ...) on all values i see 12:33:22 (the problem is now, that the error chose not to come up again >:| 12:36:36 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:40:12 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:34 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:43:26 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:44:49 trebor_dki: so you are new to cl as well? 12:44:53 *coyo* hugs 12:45:05 yeah, emacs+slime takes getting used to 12:45:44 i was frustrated enough to throw my computer as well (didnt actually do that, thankfully) 12:46:04 but i'll try to help you if i can 12:47:47 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:50:01 -!- Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:46 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.76.241] has joined #lisp 12:53:05 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:56:07 What's the best accepted way to do runtime code creation? currently, I build up a list `(lambda (x y) ...) and eval it 12:56:31 its body is generated multiple times at runtime, based on the current data 12:56:59 but the whole "If you have to use eval, you're doing it wrong" warning lights are going off 12:57:25 clhs compile 12:57:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 12:57:35 clhs coerce 12:57:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 12:58:28 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:48 yong [n=yong@111.167.59.0] has joined #lisp 12:59:21 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:59:32 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:59:51 *Phoodus* gives compile a whirl 13:00:43 wasabi [n=wasabi@nttkyo212187.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:43 -!- yong [n=yong@111.167.59.0] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:59 seems to work just the same 13:01:03 (ie, correctly) 13:01:08 compile is only worth doing if the compiler is fast or you need the code to be fast. And eval IS compile in some implementations 13:02:12 if compile is only worth it in certain circumstances (and I do need the code to be fast), you'd use eval in the other circumstances? 13:02:14 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:02:19 coerce won't compile 13:04:55 Phoodus: cl-ppcre uses a neat approach 13:04:58 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.57.147] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:06:08 Stattrav [n=Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 13:07:44 which is? 13:08:17 use lambda 13:08:24 closures, that is 13:08:45 Phoodus: produce a chain of closures 13:08:50 I'm doing code generation fo the lambda bodies, not just referring to external items from a template body 13:09:03 if the closure-building code is compiled, the closures are compiled. 13:10:07 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:07 basically, I'm trying to do runtime macro-level code generation 13:11:23 well, I _am_ doing it with compile (was with eval), just curious about best practices 13:12:08 Phoodus: if your problem suits it, generating a chain or tree of closures can be much faster than compile or eval. 13:12:34 http://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html has a simplified example 13:13:32 so lambdas calling lambdas calling lambdas compiles into faster code than just mashing stuff into 1 body? 13:13:45 maus [n=maus@222.253.57.147] has joined #lisp 13:13:47 claudia20100122 [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 13:14:17 Phoodus: no, it's faster to build the graph of closures and execute it than compiling the body. 13:14:37 Phoodus: lambdas calling lambdas would be like your ordinary jumps if they are in tail positions (usually) 13:14:42 Right, avoiding CL:COMPILE is where you get the win. 13:14:48 gwking's and gigamonekey's links are dead :( 13:15:03 If your task is complicated, assembling the graph gets into compiler writing on its own... 13:15:21 stassats`: damn linkrot 13:15:37 well, I am writing a compiler 13:15:38 stassats`: Actually, I think gigamonkey's is only temporarily dead 13:16:25 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@111.167.50.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:17:06 which slime-setup options are must-have ones? i use slime-fancy and fuzzy-completion, is there good ones except them 13:17:57 Xach: it's seems that the date is a bit off, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/blog/2007/07/28/compiling-queries-without-eval.html is available, but you link to 27 July 13:18:13 stassats`: Oh, thanks. 13:23:05 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:28 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:26:22 ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-176-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:29:37 Lol. Luke Gorrie's homepage has a scan of portuguese newspaper's "Crazy World" section that features an article saying germans are the heaviest drinkers in Europe illustrated with a picture of Luke himself drinking some beer. 13:30:02 link! 13:30:12 http://fresh.homeunix.net/~luke/ 13:30:39 Oh, it's a photo actually. 13:31:02 *Xach* is pleased to have shared a beer tower with lukego 13:31:38 splittist: that parameters! parameters! parameters! is something i thought i would use more than once but didn't factor out when it was clear i wouldn't. 13:31:45 The article goes on to say that research shows that 17% of adults in german believe that the purpose of drinking is to get drunk. 13:31:52 *Germany 13:32:03 i concur! 13:32:12 splittist: I'm trying to release more stuff without polishing it up too much (hopefully encouraging others to do the same) 13:32:23 *Xach* can spend lots and lots of time polishing 13:32:29 has a touch of the 90s that picture 13:32:42 Xach: good idea. 'Don't worry, be crappy', as they say. 13:34:14 finishing something leads to having to support it 13:35:17 Xach: I try to publish unpolished things here without releasing it to a wider audience 13:35:31 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:01 yes, having local users is the best way to figure out where polish & docs are needed most 13:36:13 There needs to be a different verb that doesn't have all the baggage of 'to release' 13:36:57 What is this talk of releases? Our software escapes, leaving a trail of bloody quality assurance people in its wake. 13:37:11 splittist: "slipped out through github"? :) 13:37:41 "made paying customers happy" here :-P 13:37:44 Phoodus: Writing an extensive test suite does wonders in that regard, in my experience 13:39:34 so, ralith linked me to some studies that indicated that well-written cl can compile into faster code than java, and perhaps even c in some cases 13:39:41 is this true? cl wins! 13:39:51 I was thinking of something with the developer as the subject and the code as the object. Perhaps abusing escape works there: "I escaped the foo stuff rather than polishing it for a release".... 13:40:04 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@219-89-66-1.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:40:33 splittist: you mean, Klingon code? 13:40:44 "put it in the hands of users" works, but isn't a single term 13:40:44 "What is this talk of "release"? Klingons do not make software "releases". Our software "escapes" leaving a bloody trail of designers and quality assurance people in its wake." 13:40:50 13:40:59 coyo: lisp optimizes for implementation speed; execution is just the icing. 13:41:02 legumbre_ [n=leo@r190-135-53-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:41:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [] 13:41:10 fusss: :O 13:41:43 pjb: already made the joke, imperfectly remembered :) 13:41:47 pjb: Ah! I missed the reference earlier. (sorry dlowe). Thanks for enlightening me (: 13:41:54 pjb: gmta :D 13:42:00 *coyo* goes back to reading the gentle cl book, keeping on eye on this channel 13:42:30 *fusss* says that as he watches his clock tick, and Montezuma is busy indexing the 900MB it was fed 10 minutes ago :-/ 13:42:42 *dlowe* stabs his CL bug to death with a Bat'leth 13:42:51 <_Fury> is there a funktion like (any (nil nil nil T nil)) -> T 13:43:00 _Fury: some 13:43:04 (some ..) 13:43:09 <_Fury> thanks!! 13:43:12 dlowe: "Debugging? Klingons do not debug! Our software does not coddle the weak." 13:43:16 _Fury: (some #'identity list) 13:43:36 <_Fury> ok :) 13:43:41 (find t ...) 13:43:56 <_Fury> ok find^^ :) 13:44:10 True story. Some sales rep once tried to get my team in trouble by saying we were trying to "cover up" our mistakes by testing before release. 13:44:14 _Fury: also see EVERY and NULL 13:44:28 lol 13:44:30 _Fury: Yes. (shadow 'nil) (defun nil (&rest args) (apply (function list) args)) (defconstant nil 'nil) (defun any (seq) (apply (function some) (function identity) seq)) 13:44:31 dlowe: What did you respond? 13:44:32 <_Fury> ok thanks 13:44:34 + *groan* 13:44:49 _Fury: or else it couldn't be a function but would have to be a macro. 13:45:23 tcr: the person that she was complaining to thought it was hilarious, so it didn't need a response. We did translate all her received email to leet-speak for a few days, though 13:45:43 dlowe: salesmen are always ready to cast the first stone 13:45:47 blamed it on an email virus that was going around :D 13:45:51 good times 13:45:58 what does #'variable mean? 13:46:05 coyo: (function variable) 13:46:08 clhs #' 13:46:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 13:46:11 oh, okay 13:46:13 clhs #' 13:46:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 13:46:19 So it's not a variable, but a function name... 13:46:26 i see! 13:46:31 thank you, pjb 13:46:33 *coyo* hugs 13:46:37 <_8david> fusss: make certain your merge factor is appropriate 13:46:39 coyo: it basically means check the clhs if you wonder what something means :D 13:47:04 coyo: Notice that for various personal and aesthetic reasons, I always use (function x) instead of #'x. But I'm almost alone doing that. 13:47:13 _8david: merger factor? 13:47:21 rate of indexing? 13:47:22 well, now i know how to use specbot's clhs function :3 13:47:37 coyo: google "clhs keyword" also works 13:47:44 clhs dwim 13:47:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for dwim. 13:47:46 :( 13:47:51 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f734773.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:03 I'm coming to think that #' is almost entirely unnecessary unless you're doing something weird 13:48:05 http://l1sp.org/cl/make-load-form-saving-slots also works for many CL terms...but not #' :( 13:48:06 Like EQ 13:48:09 guaqua: k 13:48:13 coyo: #' is just a reader macro, or syntax for FUNCTION 13:48:15 dlowe: local functions? 13:48:40 <_8david> fusss: *index-writer-default-merge-factor* 13:48:43 stassats`: I almost never use local functions, myself 13:48:45 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:48:57 plage [n=user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 13:48:58 *Xach* uses local functions like they're going out of style 13:49:03 Good afternoon! 13:49:04 yeah, same here 13:49:12 _8david: what does that do? 13:49:34 local functions just make debugging harder in my experience 13:49:50 G'morning all. 13:50:00 dlowe: They increase readability in so far as it's clear that they're tightly coupled to another function, though. 13:50:18 dlowe: If SBCL only supported tracing local functions properly... 13:50:22 <_8david> it says how often the index is optimized (merged). 13:50:28 hi nyef 13:50:33 Local _closures_ may lead to better performance, and better understanding of the code. 13:50:56 <_8david> Merging is the optimizing that makes reading faster, but takes time if done too often while writing. 13:51:00 <_8david> If you're only writing the index for all data in one go, you don't want merges, so a huge merge factor is right; then merge only once at the end of writing. 13:51:39 hello nyef 13:51:56 Xach: I see no local functions in your stupidly simple distributed client/server :) 13:52:04 good morning nyef :3 13:52:22 <_8david> (The only situation where you're out of luck is when you want to read while writing, e.g. because you need to check for every document whether you already have it in the index. Then not merging means that the reads degenerate into linear search.) 13:53:55 -!- knobo [n=user@90.149.4.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:09 _8david: excellent! thank you. 13:54:17 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:54:21 I can just bind that when I am doing bulk updating :-) 13:54:40 hello plage! 13:54:47 Here's something that happens to me 100 times per week: i write a single local function with flet, then write the main function, and then realize i need two local functions, and then realize they need to refer to each other, and rewrite flet as labels. 13:54:56 yet for some reason i never *start* just by writing labels. 13:55:19 I always forget about flet and just use labels :-P 13:55:21 this happens sometimes with let and let*, but not nearly as much, and it rarely bugs me. 13:55:25 though I'm not one of those peple who always use let* 13:55:26 Xach: you have the secret hope that you may write pretty code ? ;) 13:55:41 At least rewriting flet as labels is easy enough. 13:55:47 Xach: Really? I almost never write inter-recursive local functions, but I often need that a later local function binding needs a previous one, i.e. I want FLET* 13:56:00 Maybe you need a keybinding that finds the next outermost FLET or LET and converts it to a LABELS or LET* ? 13:56:07 Xach: because FLET communicates *intent*; I mean, in the 45 minutes from the time you write the locals to the time you rewrite them, you need the defining form to communicate INTENT to you, dammit, recursion is hard to spot. 13:56:08 I typically have a single recursive function inside labels 13:56:27 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-9-234.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:33 LET* is the PROGN of binding forms; ugly. 13:56:42 hi plage 13:56:42 fusss: you spot it when it blows your stack 13:56:48 *nyef* waits for someone to pipe up and say that the only reason they use LABELS is to implement the Y combinator. 13:57:01 tcr: i write state machines with labels from time to time, but at least with those i know enough to start with labels 13:57:16 fusss: And you'd probably object to the LOOP-of-six-FOR-clauses too, wouldn't you? 13:57:17 Xach: I use PROG/PROG* for that :-) 13:58:29 nyef: ufffff, yes. i rather spell it out in a whole page. Which is OK, i recycle my pixels. 13:58:30 I think I used TAGBODY for my last state machine. 13:58:30 -!- moesenle_ [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:58:59 fusss: But screen space is a non-renewable resource! 13:59:18 (In fairness, that loop could have been rewritten using one FOR clause... and a LET*. 14:01:08 <_8david> on to topic of LOOP, I'm currently reading COBOL code and it feels strangely familiar 14:01:14 Heh! 14:01:19 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:01:53 _8david: it's just like hypertalk 14:01:57 So, to change the topic briefly, I'm drawing a blank on immediate objects in SBCL that have widetags but aren't characters or 64-bit only. 14:02:20 Man, hypertalk! Now that was a while ago... 14:02:50 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:03:19 I keep waiting for the next hypercard, but it keeps not happening 14:04:02 How hard can it be to make one, though? Just cross a paint program with a simple scripting language... 14:04:54 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:54 There have been several "clones" of Hypercard, such as "Supercard". 14:04:58 It had an easily graspable metaphor and a _very_ gentle learning curve 14:05:00 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has left #lisp 14:05:06 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 14:05:09 stupid keybindings 14:05:13 nyef: unbound markers 14:05:20 Oddity [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has joined #lisp 14:05:59 Mmm... Except that an unbound marker isn't really an immediate object, it's a non-lisp datum that traps on most access. 14:06:00 dlowe: right. But the problem is still located at the screen-chair interface. 14:06:43 dlowe: specifically: users won't program. So if you create a simplified programming environement, eventually it will be programmers who will have to suffer with it. 14:07:08 pjb: but see, people were programming with hypercard. Real-world problems were getting solved. 14:07:39 pjb: either that, or users get so distracted with trying to twiddle/customize their program that they never get anything done 14:07:53 heh. that's a temptation for us all 14:08:11 dlowe: I don't know. I'm a programmer, and the only one who had to use it once (I made a Q&D prototype for a GUI). Users around me never programmed it. 14:08:31 dlowe: yeah, but when you've got a user who is having his first experience with "The Power of Programming!", it's a different magnitude :) 14:08:51 Sergio`__ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:09:26 Really, hypercard was a gateway drug for programming, similar to the way BASIC was for a while. 14:09:35 In high school I wound up in a typing class, which was taught on mac SE 30s. the teacher thought i could type well enough already so i got to write hypercard programs instead. 14:09:42 LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:09:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:06 hi LiamH 14:10:24 hi fe[nl]ix 14:10:48 Ah! The MacSE 30. A nice machine. Once I powered it off without saving my program. Happily I realized it within half a second and powered it back on right away, and could save my program without losing a bit! 14:11:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:14 The SE/30 was one of the greatest Mac form factors ever. 14:11:30 And hey, you can run NetBSD and Linux on them! 14:11:41 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:21 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@169-195.swlan.wu-wien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:12:33 <_Fury> position gives me the first position of an element in a list. Is there a function, that gives me all positions of an element in a list? 14:12:53 _Fury: delete-if-not 14:13:01 oh, positions 14:13:38 _Fury: not built-in. 14:13:45 <_Fury> ok :( 14:14:15 _Fury: (loop for pos from 0 for elem in list when (eql elem ob) collect pos) or something like that. 14:14:17 (loop for i from 0 for elt in list when (eql elt thingy) collect i) 14:14:23 Xach: heh 14:14:26 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:14:28 Xach: _Fury: Yes, built-in: (function (lambda (item sequence) (loop :for previous = 0 :then pos :for pos = (position item sequence :from previous) :while pos :collect pos))) 14:14:33 You just have to know its name! 14:15:04 <_Fury> thanks! 14:15:07 for German-esque definitions of name concatenations... ;) 14:15:14 _Fury: add a 1+ 14:15:30 Phoodus: see clhs FUNCTION 14:16:02 prxq [n=mommer@f051043210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:16 hi 14:16:30 hello prxq 14:16:47 _Fury: s/:from/:start/ 14:17:00 <_Fury> ? 14:17:19 The correct name is: (lambda (item sequence) (loop :for previous = 0 :then pos :for pos = (position item sequence :start (1+ previous)) :while pos :collect pos)) 14:17:46 <_Fury> thanks! 14:18:14 _Fury: Better use Xach's, or plage's version. 14:18:28 Make it: (lambda (item sequence) (loop :for previous = -1 :then pos :for pos = (position item sequence :start (1+ previous)) :while pos :collect pos)) ; I missed the case when the item was in 0th position. 14:18:38 _8david: I always forget montezuma is documentation compatible with Lucene 14:18:44 hi plage! 14:18:49 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:53 <_Fury> thx 14:19:06 Well, it depend on the implementation. In CL, my solution will probably be faster. 14:19:09 clisp 14:19:19 <_Fury> i use clisp :) 14:19:31 In SBCL Xach's or plage's will probably be faster than mine. 14:19:56 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:58 In clisp, you want to use CL functions to do most of the work instead of doing it yourself... 14:20:00 my indexing rate now is 250 files per second, each file is 24k 14:20:04 pjb: Really? that seems pretty remarkable to me. 14:20:08 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:20:29 <_Fury> it really works^^ 14:20:32 Xach: Yes, since looping yourself is done in bytecode, while cl:position is implemented in C. 14:20:32 pjb: Xach's and plage's are O(N), yours is O(N^2) 14:20:34 <_Fury> thanks 14:20:42 Xof: :start 14:20:46 um, yes? 14:20:50 how do you _get_ to the start 14:20:51 pjb: you still have to get to the nth cdr. 14:20:54 -!- ericheel [n=eric@82.110.55.131] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:02 a loop on MEMBER would make a little more sense. 14:21:15 well, apart from not solving this problem... 14:21:16 Ah well, for lists yes. 14:21:22 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:25 except member doesn't really help you with indexes, except if you do length calculation & subtraction or something 14:21:33 TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 asn [n=110@gentoo/developer/asn] has joined #lisp 14:22:53 If you want to collect indices, you don't want to use lists in the first place... 14:23:01 I'm basically trying to implement the following in common lisp: 14:23:01 for (i=2;i (loop for i from 2 while (< i (sqrt 16)) do (progn 14:23:04 (setf i (nextprime i)) 14:23:07 (print i))) 14:23:22 minion: tell asn about lisppaste 14:23:22 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:23:23 minion: tell asn about lisppaste 14:23:24 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 14:23:29 okie dokie 14:23:32 Twice so you'll remember! 14:24:08 with i = 2, so it's not an iteration variable. Alternately, for i = 2 then (nextprime i). 14:24:13 asn: You can use bit vectors to do that. Also, remember that all pair numbers (but two) are not primes, so you don't need to store them in the bit vector. 14:24:20 <_Fury> Is there a build in subsequence Funktion? like (sub '(1 2 3) '(0 1 2 3 4)) --> t? 14:24:29 clhs subseq 14:24:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 14:24:35 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:37 _Fury: SEARCH 14:24:39 Oh, as a perdicate? 14:24:40 asn pasted "yoip" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93734 14:24:44 Err... predicate? 14:24:46 (defun nextprime (n) (1- (fact n))) ; may miss out some primes 14:24:50 <_Fury> xach thx 14:25:03 _Fury: see also http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_sequen.htm 14:25:09 <_Fury> thc 14:25:10 <_Fury> x 14:25:19 pjb: since you managed to interpret that shitty indentation... 14:25:29 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:25:34 pjb: basically I'm just getting into lisp and I'm just not sure I'm doing it the right way 14:25:45 i'm practically using C logic 14:26:03 "Real Programmers can write FORTRAN code in any language!" 14:26:05 asn: nyef indicated the problem. 14:26:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:32 aw, 'with' does not use stepping? 14:26:58 The equivalent to your C statement would be (loop for i = 2 then (next-prime i) while ( pjb: (< i ...) 14:27:22 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.197.191] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 14:27:25 Right. 14:27:34 bah, stupid nextprime function only works for odd rpimes 14:27:36 Correct, WITH just supplies a local variable. FOR = does a rebind every time through the loop, FOR = THEN does an initial binding and then uses the second form for every subsequent time through the loop. 14:27:37 asn: indeed, variables declared with WITH are just like LET variables. 14:28:03 interesting 14:28:08 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@195.222.67.102] has joined #lisp 14:28:39 Xof: Here's your chance! Dump the problem of a cheap, accurate nextprime function on some poor undergrad, disguising it as a debugging request. :-P 14:28:44 and now - if we continue with C logic - to write the body of the loop I have to use the 'do' keyword, right? 14:28:53 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.23] has joined #lisp 14:28:54 (Or as an extra-credit homework problem.) 14:29:13 asn: yes. 14:29:24 *asn* decided to switch his project-euler prog language to lisp today 14:29:37 okie dokie 14:29:41 thanks gentlemen 14:29:49 asn: notice that you don't need the progn between the DO and the following loop keyword, but you may want to use it to have a nice indentation in emacs... 14:29:55 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 14:30:07 asn: How do you know all these people are gentlemen, or even men? 14:30:22 or even human. 14:30:30 indeed. 14:30:36 *Phoodus* is a very dextrous ceramic mug 14:30:40 pjb: Are you suggesting that they might be dancers instead? 14:30:42 minion: are you a gentleman? 14:30:43 yes 14:30:55 minion: Are you a gentleman and a scholar? 14:30:56 no 14:31:16 Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:31:16 minion: are you a dancer? 14:31:16 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 33 seconds is too many. 14:31:18 *p_l* just survived a psychology exam, now the question is if he passed 14:31:32 Surely the antonym of gentlemern is players 14:31:40 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:44 p_l: well, they still allow you to use a computer 14:31:48 :-) 14:31:52 prxq: haha 14:32:39 Oh, to return to the time when you could use any calculator you wanted for the midterm provided that it didn't dim the lights when you turned it on... with a modern tablet PC and an extra battery. 14:33:15 My friends and family shouldn't be surprised if they'll receive emails from me after my official funeral ;-) 14:34:06 lisp works! 14:34:14 (it worked...) 14:34:17 LispWorks 14:37:17 -!- Sergio`__ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:37:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:37:35 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-64.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:45 dabd [n=user@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 14:37:47 Hmm, anyone happen to know when the HyperSpec (or Franz's variation) first became widely available? 14:38:04 It's odd to see old threads from comp.lang.lisp where people complain "almost nobody has access to the standard" 14:38:13 old being 1998-ish 14:38:24 Xach: I'd guess Kent Pitman knows. 14:38:49 There's probably an announcement on cll. 14:38:56 "The Common Lisp HyperSpec was prepared (1996) and revised (2005) by Kent Pitman." 14:39:36 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 14:39:54 hmm 14:39:56 that doesn't answer the "widely available" bit 14:40:14 I'm seeing references to the Harlequin url as far back as 1996 14:40:27 And there might be a difference between "widely available" and "widely known". 14:40:32 *Xach* tries to find the discussion that prompted his question 14:41:07 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:11 nyef: the discussion i'm thinking of had some kind of contrasting CLtL2/spec issue, with one party complaining that the spec is not widely available 14:41:59 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:55 zophy-ng [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 *Xach* has lost it for now 14:45:46 nyef: unbound object 14:45:48 *nyef* is impressed that SBCL actually has a minimum of 27 distinct array types in memory. 14:46:08 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-182.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:43 pkhuong: Again, that's not a lisp datum. It's part of the VM substrate, but it's not really accessible in Lisp beyond BOUNDP tests. 14:46:59 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.195.190] has left #lisp 14:47:41 nyef: that's called "optimization". 14:47:54 <_Fury> Is there a function that checks wether there are some elements in a list (check '(1 2 3) '(1 0 4 2 3)) --> t 14:48:13 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:17 Yeah, but I'm definitely counting such "marker" values as a separate group of widetags. 14:48:18 <_Fury> (im trying to implement tic tac toe) 14:48:32 subsetp 14:48:40 <_Fury> thanks 14:48:43 set-intersection? 14:49:08 (Wouldn't subsetp return NIL unless -all- of the elements in one are in the other?) 14:49:36 yes 14:49:48 RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 I'm also failing to see why either would be of use in playing tic-tac-toe, but that could just be my mental model of how to write a tic-tac-toe program being rather specialized. 14:50:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 14:50:27 (loop for i in '(1 2 3) thereis (member i '(1 0 4 2 3))) 14:50:30 nyef: just wait until you eval (make-unbound-marker) at the REPL ;) 14:50:40 *nyef* winces. 14:51:01 took me a couple seconds to figure out how to get out of that one. 14:55:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:23 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-34.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:42 Haha. I took the programming language test and I'm lisp. "Very few people like me (Probably because you I use too many parenthesis (I'd better stop it (Reallly))) 15:01:51 -!- dabd [n=user@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:12 that is the greatest and best form of lisp humor. 15:02:26 Xach Indeed :D 15:02:28 actually, writing "th" instead of "s" would make it greatester. 15:02:47 Xach: "greatethter", thurely? 15:02:58 *Xach* twitches 15:03:00 *lukjad007* does find and replace 15:03:26 Haha. I took the programming language tetht and I'm lithp. "Very few people like me (Probably becauthe you I uthe too many parenthethith (I'd better thtop it (Reallly))) 15:03:28 -!- Borbus [i=borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has left #lisp 15:03:51 yeth, much better. 15:04:18 (global-set-key #\s (lambda () (interactive) (insert "th"))) 15:04:19 15:04:34 pjb: would you consider using #.(parse-namestring "foo") instead of #p? 15:04:39 sorry, #p"foo" 15:05:21 Oh, anyone want to take the test? I have the link, I can PM it if you like. Or post if it's okay with everyone 15:05:27 ugh, CLism, s/#\s/"s"/ 15:05:44 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:06:03 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 15:07:16 Xach: So, how are LPNs working out for you? 15:07:16 <_Fury> is the nth element of a list setf able? 15:07:26 clhs nth 15:07:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 15:07:35 nyef: The more I read the more I like. 15:07:41 it says "Accessor" 15:07:46 that means "yes" 15:07:50 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f734773.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:50 nyef: I've still got to write more programs with 'em. 15:07:53 <_Fury> thx 15:08:08 Xach: Mmm... Only real problem I have with them is that SBCL LPNs can't refer to all of the filenames in CLHS. :-/ 15:08:26 nyef: That's not really true. 15:09:19 nyef: It's truer if you want to add the constraint of not setting up the translations. 15:09:49 Yeah, that's the nuisance bit, adding translations for the, what was it, underscore? 15:10:41 I think people get derailed by wanting the logical pathname to look like a specific physical pathname, or to automatically translate to a specific physical pathname that doesn't follow LPN syntax. 15:10:54 Mmm. 15:10:54 Which is a fine thing to want, but not what LPNs provide. 15:11:21 the cltl2 discussion was pretty helpful to me 15:11:29 I could have sworn I used LPNs in some version of lh-usb, but I'm not seeing it there. 15:11:36 I know I did the proof-of-concept test for it. 15:11:52 although it gave me a moment of panic, because it has some awful restrictions 15:11:59 fortunately they were removed for the standard 15:12:49 Xach: aren't the restrictions that are left pretty bad? 15:12:56 rpg: I don't find them bad, no. 15:13:03 Your mileage may vary. 15:13:20 Working on big projects with JavaProgrammersMayBeWhy 15:13:47 CamelCaseIsMyLife 15:13:48 rpg: That falls under wanting automatic translation. 15:13:55 If you set up translation, it works fine. 15:14:17 Xach: a translation for CamelCase from camel_case? LPNs can do that? 15:14:31 certainly not with an underscore :-) 15:14:36 Xach: I think the ACL/SBCL issue is also a big one, but that's probably down to differences in pathnames proper, not just logical pathnames. 15:14:51 pkhuong: No, a translation from a specific logical pathname to a specific physical one. 15:15:03 And, speaking of pathnames, does anyone have any insight as to the UNC-filespec thing for SBCL/Win32? 15:15:06 too bad. 15:15:24 I'm not going to advocate too hard for them before trying out more stuff on all implementations, but the complaints I've seen so far all seem to fit into a couple of buckets that don't seem awful to me. 15:15:53 <_Fury> Hum can i do sth like that: (changenth 1 2 '(1 2 3)) --> (2 2 3) 15:16:15 I managed to track it down to probe-file wierdness, but didn't really try to dig further than that, just gathered enough information to allow someone to figure out what the next step might be. 15:16:30 _Fury: you've been doing it wrong, since some time 15:16:40 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:16:58 _Fury: Thou shalt not modify literal values. 15:17:02 _Fury: All your questions make it seem like you want to use vectors rather than lists 15:17:30 you could also use a 2d array, if it's a tic-tac-toe board. 15:17:39 <_Fury> tcr you are right.... that would be better.. but in our lecture we dindt have vectors yet 15:17:48 clhs elt 15:17:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm 15:17:56 *nyef* would actually use integers for representing board positions. Eighteen bits is sufficient to represent a board state, with some redundancy. 15:18:04 rpg: The ACL/SBCL issue, again, seems to be how much work you're willing to do to set up translations. 15:18:21 _Fury: Still, are you allowed to use stuff not yet introduced? 15:18:44 actually, (setf (nth ...) 2) works 15:18:55 <_Fury> yes :). But all i did till now is with lists... and i dont want to change that 15:19:12 <_Fury> yes but i want a new list to be returned 15:19:20 <_Fury> not change the existing 15:19:20 Phoodus: His example was probably meant to also ask for call-by-reference 15:19:28 _Fury: Oh ok! 15:19:35 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:36 oh 15:19:38 _Fury: You can just use substitute for that 15:20:16 <_Fury> i want to subst only one position 15:20:25 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:21:01 <_Fury> not all occurs of one element 15:21:50 _Fury: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/alexandria/modify-macros.lisp there's a function BREAKUP 15:21:57 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BE4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:41 <_Fury> yes but i want to change only one position in the list 15:23:02 (destructuring-bind (prefix (old . suffix)) (breakup n list) (append prefix (cons new suffix))) 15:23:04 <_Fury> the element at pos 4 should be 'x for example... sth like that 15:23:34 <_Fury> oh^^ i think i sould use the setf version^^ 15:23:44 <_Fury> to complicated for me 15:23:46 copy the list, then setf it :-P 15:24:04 <_Fury> yes :) thats what i wanted to do :) 15:24:10 <_Fury> thanks 15:24:30 actually you could use nconc instead of append, and only have the necessary consing 15:25:23 <_Fury> i will copy the list an setf it 15:25:38 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:04 (substitute-if new (constantly t) sequence :start index :end (1+ index)) 15:26:52 <_Fury> :( i dont understand that :( 15:27:04 _Fury: it does what you said. 15:27:20 _Fury: you shouldn't be constantly re-implemeting CL... 15:27:49 <_Fury> yes :( im very new to this language 15:28:19 CL = Comprehensive Library too... 15:29:27 It can't be all that comprehensive. There's no IMAP client interface, after all. :-P 15:29:39 nyef: what?! 15:29:51 nyef: isn't mark crispin's c-client a port from CL? 15:29:52 Xach: No IMAP client interface in the hyperspec. 15:29:55 oh, right 15:30:25 ("Every program expands until it can read email. Those that can't are replaced by those that can.") 15:30:30 What about ZetaLisp? 15:30:43 pjb: That's more of a ZL than a CL. 15:31:08 The Ultimate library? 15:31:26 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:31:35 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.44.171] has joined #lisp 15:32:10 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@188-23-176-83.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:11 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:34:21 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:35:19 Okay, time for me to take a bit of a break from writing documentation. Hopefully I can finish this initial draft today. 15:35:56 <_Fury> pjb I proudly present my solution^^ : http://pastebin.de/3384 15:36:55 1) use more readable variable names 15:37:09 2) you're not copying the list, are you? 15:38:58 <_Fury> i am 15:39:09 3) a (let ...) scope is an implicit progn; you can have multiple forms inside let and it'll return the value of the last one anyway 15:39:11 <_Fury> let copies it i think 15:39:13 no 15:39:20 it just makes a new variable that refers to the same list 15:39:26 <_Fury> :(((((((( 15:39:33 <_Fury> ill give up 15:39:38 clhs copy-list 15:39:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_lis.htm 15:39:40 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:38 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:33 dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:50 phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:26 rrice [n=rrice@adsl-76-244-145-54.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.166] has quit [Client Quit] 15:49:29 thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:21 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has left #lisp 15:53:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 15:53:35 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:55:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:17 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:59:24 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:01:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 16:01:20 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:01:59 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:05:21 -!- _Fury [n=Fury@p57904B85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:24 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.10] has joined #lisp 16:07:23 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:28 -!- plage [n=user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:36 Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 16:10:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:10:10 *p_l* just seen Sun Common Lisp 4.0 lying free to take 16:10:40 snearch_ [n=olaf@g225061119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:04 Sun Common Lisp was Lucid 16:11:09 tfb: yup 16:11:18 from a very, very long time ago 16:11:22 anyway, tape for Sun-3/4 :) 16:11:26 yes 16:12:08 there was X11 R5, Sun SPE, Sun CL, FrameMaker for SunOS 4.x, and some more interesting stuff 16:12:29 Sun made a lisp? do they still support it? 16:12:39 Lithos: no, it's old history 16:12:56 Patterns of Software talks about it. 16:13:14 Lithos: it was Sun-branded Lucid Common Lisp 16:13:25 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:09 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:14:20 -!- pem_ [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:35 They may also have resold Allegro at some point - there was some upheaval in the late 80s, though I forget the details 16:15:40 also got a Sun Type 6 keyboard from there... unfortunately UK layout, there was standard QWERTY but on Sun's proprietary port 16:16:22 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:00 I need to grab a display as well... 16:20:31 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 16:26:45 -!- legumbre is now known as legumbrebot 16:26:56 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:00 -!- legumbrebot is now known as legumbre 16:28:48 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:35:35 -!- Sergio`_ [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:23 trebor-dki pasted "arithmetic error tracked down, but i do not understand why" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93747 16:38:53 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 16:39:58 sorry, but i tried several hours and i really do not understand the problem in this !$# line. can someone give me a hint (decode-float didn't help /me/, yes i re-re-re-read the clhs pages for that) 16:40:09 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:41:11 i tried (if (> a b) b a) as well, same problem. 16:41:46 i mean it is just a (min a b) ... 16:42:13 madsy_ [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1164.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:43:35 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:53 -!- maus [n=maus@222.253.57.147] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:48:27 -!- zophy-ng [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:28 zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:54 oh my god. 16:51:07 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@169-195.swlan.wu-wien.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:25 Did you find it? 16:53:20 Oh, and there's something else... 16:53:21 -!- Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-32-185.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:31 Oh, right, the error might be in the -preceeding- floaty expression. 16:53:34 Harag [n=Harag@iburst-41-213-32-185.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:54:04 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-112-120.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:54:15 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:54:39 it is for sure, but the error somehow /occured/ later. i even can put 0.5d0 in the place of (min ...) and the error is thrown. but now i have a path to follow. 16:54:55 wow, most unusual form: 16:54:58 CL-USER> (foo (defun foo (x) x)) 16:55:21 Yeah, x86oid FPUs typically don't trap until the instruction following the one that actually caused the problem. 16:55:28 what the hell is that? eager evaluation abuse? 16:55:37 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:54 *Xach* wonders if it's abuse 16:55:57 fusss: Looks like a test case, actually. 16:56:26 from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SBCL_screenshot.png 16:56:41 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:19 the arguments are evaluated before application, so the defining form executes and returns the symbol naming the function, which by now exists and is applied to itself 16:57:22 I think that's OK 16:57:34 ish 16:57:47 unidiomatic, at least 16:58:11 doesn't work in CLISP 16:58:31 a sufficiently nazi compiler aught to capture that function pointer it and fix it before evaluating arguments, imp 16:59:56 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababc.htm 17:00:23 3.1.2.1.2.3 is a nice section number 17:00:31 trebor_dki: Okay, what -might- work is calling (sb-kernel:float-wait) to trigger any pending FP traps, but it's... not quite set up right. 17:01:02 For some reason the compiler knows about it but it's not actually defined as a function outside of that, so any full call to it will fail. 17:02:06 Xach: so it's clear from that that this may or may not be an error (para 6) 17:02:36 tfb: I'm a little puzzled by paragraph 1, though. "If the operator is a symbol naming a function..." 17:03:35 yes, because it isn't at the point evaluation starts, it doesn't yet name anything at all 17:04:05 I dunno. I think it's clearly not something one should write :-) 17:04:19 Xach: That's clarified in 3.1.2.1.2: "If the operator is neither a special operator nor a macro name, it is assumed to be a function name (even if there is no definition for such a function)." 17:04:29 nyef: Ok, thanks. 17:04:59 Fun things like this make me really enjoy the spec. 17:05:39 Mmm... Like yesterday's #.(values) => NIL thing? 17:05:49 things like that make me realise just how hard writing a good spec must be 17:06:08 And just think, the CL spec is actually one of the better specs out there. 17:07:05 definitely is 17:07:53 dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:09:52 for it's size, nothing comes close 17:10:09 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:10:42 though some people really push detail beyond the palatable *cough* Lucca Cardelli *cough* 17:15:13 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.23] has quit [] 17:15:20 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 -!- swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:28:29 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 17:28:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:48 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:32:17 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:09 Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:19 Joreji_ [n=thomas@134.61.93.87] has joined #lisp 17:36:54 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 17:37:10 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 17:38:34 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-163-159.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:08 Hi all, can someone figure how to compute the monthly week number out of a date? 17:41:54 That would depend on your definition of "monthly week number" and the representation used for dates, but decode-universal-time might be of help. 17:41:57 clhs decode-universal-time 17:41:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_un.htm 17:45:19 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:46:07 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.76.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:16 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:23 nha [n=prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:46:37 its for something like: "the second Monday of each month", so I figure decode-universal-time is not what I'd like... 17:47:57 dabd [n=user@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:59 so, I'd like to calculate if a given day is in the first, second, third ... week of any month 17:49:25 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:49:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 -!- dabd [n=user@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 17:50:34 the usual (1+ (truncate (/ day 7))) 17:50:39 ... So, weeks aligned to the first day of the month rather than to Sundays? 17:50:47 ye 17:50:49 yep 17:51:07 Though it sounds like you already have most to all of your solution. 17:52:09 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.198.57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:10 A more interesting problem might be to find the -last- Monday of each month. 17:52:53 its also interesting 17:53:10 -- moderately -- 17:53:35 well, if the month starts on a friday 17:53:44 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:54:12 Don't forget leap-years and their effects. 17:55:37 is normal for remote slime over ssh to take a couple of sec with M-. 17:55:51 and definition is in the same file 17:55:56 *is it 17:56:01 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:36 nyef: for the second Monday problem that is no concern 17:56:42 True. 17:57:37 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:44 starting from the end need that info 18:00:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:00:26 milanj: ssh is slow as hell. everything takes a few seconds. 18:00:33 milanj, M-. involves communicating with the remote lisp 18:00:44 even if the definition is actually two lines away 18:00:50 Okay, SBCL hackers: Feedback request time. I've been working on improving the internals documentation, and my current draft is at . At this point, chapter six (Objects In Memory) is new, and I'd like to know what people think. 18:01:45 lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 18:02:23 cya 18:02:30 -!- Blkt [n=user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-240-128.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit ["bb"] 18:03:25 bye, guys. thanks for thinking with me nyef. 18:03:47 -!- claudia20100122 [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:04:08 hefner, Adlai, thanks 18:04:18 i thought that i missed something 18:04:25 nyef: you'll probably have more luck on the mailing list :) I may read it in the further future 18:05:18 madnificent: I probably would, but I'm only looking for initial feedback at this point. 18:06:08 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:06:39 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:21 guille_ [n=user@223.Red-83-40-205.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11:59 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:14 SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:13:49 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-182.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:53 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 18:14:20 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-76-34.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:03 nyef: 6.2.2 left my scratching my head a bit... seems somewhat incomplete. Besides that, i know have a pretty good idea how SBCL stores objects in memory. The NIL/CONS hack was especially intersting to me. 18:15:29 s/know/now 18:16:02 Okay, so fleshing out 6.2.2 a bit and possibly adding more 6.2 subsections would be good? 18:18:17 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:21:02 yeah, absolutely. I didn't actually read the whole thing on order, just chapter 6, so i might have been missing the context, but 'unboxed area of the code component' is introduced without, AFAICT, explaining what a code-component is and why it has boxed and unboxed areas. 18:21:03 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:41 Okay, so it definately needs fleshing out there. 18:21:51 Is 6.1 reasonably okay, though? 18:22:19 yeah, that all made perfect sense. 18:22:21 ... Actually, I think I need to move the body text in 6 to 6.1. 18:22:45 6.2.1: "optimization", ==> "optimization," 18:23:36 Arguable. 18:23:46 But good eye. 18:23:59 [grammar] rules were made to be broken 18:24:16 Grammar rules are descriptive more than prescriptive. 18:25:03 yeah, most programmers i know put the punctuation outside the quotation. 18:26:12 i was taught otherwise, but break that rule too :) 18:26:13 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 18:26:15 the nesting is incorrect in the "proper" way 18:26:47 it'd be like writing (foo [bar) baz] 18:26:54 It jumped out at me in the PDF file due to the layout on my screen -- the starting quotatin marks are closer to the 'o' than the closing marks are to the 'n'. 18:26:56 No precendent yet within this document. 18:27:18 Yeah, the comma placement is a little odd... 18:28:36 It looks stranger to me than the equivalent in a fixed-width font. 18:28:58 Anyway, diagrams would help explain what's going on with the tags. 18:29:12 ... but that may be hard to do. 18:29:23 Yeah, not sure how to do that in texinfo. 18:29:56 the texinfo conversion of SICP uses ascii art... 18:30:14 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:20 I could do the dot thing like was done for the discrimination function chapter, I guess... 18:30:36 emacs has many ways to draw with text... non? 18:30:59 -!- asn [n=110@gentoo/developer/asn] has quit ["1264185006.531218"] 18:31:08 *trebor_dki* found the evil form. but backtrace was not helpful at all. one had to follow the track via hander-case till the source. but now its done. 18:31:17 blitz_` [n=blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:27 bye. 18:31:36 On a related note ... I saw a status report for Alan Kay's recent project that includes information about a compiler that takes ASCII diagrams of TCP/IP packets and produces code. 18:31:41 timor: ping 18:31:54 blitz_`: pong 18:32:37 ... so theoretically, ASCII art could be source code for the tag manipulation Lisp code. 18:33:56 I actually messed around with expressing the rules for lowtag assignment in code and having it generate the actual tags from that, but it was far too verbose to use. 18:33:57 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:34:47 that's the most terrible thing i've ever heard (ascii art to code) 18:34:54 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@g225061119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:35:29 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:47 clop: It's actually kindof neat, really. 18:35:52 clop: You should read the report. The source code for the TCP/IP stack is tiny, part in ASCII art, part in state transition rules. 18:35:53 reb: nowadays, it is being recognized that in computer systems, ", can be stored with the double-quote character before the comma, even if a kerning display could move the comma under the double-quote. 18:36:42 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:44 Sure, but that's not what I saw in the texinfo output. 18:36:54 zophy-ng [n=sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:56 Then complain to texinfo programmers ;-) 18:37:57 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.10] has left #lisp 18:38:07 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.10] has joined #lisp 18:42:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:14 jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-76-34.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:49:15 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.194.12] has joined #lisp 18:49:37 texinfo is evil 18:49:48 rouslan [n=rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 I am looking for simple Lisp interpreter implementations in C++, to have a Lisp environment (which includes C++ function bindings) execute a script. 18:51:30 rouslan: try ecl 18:51:42 I successfully modified femtoLisp for this purpose, but it lacks floating-point support. 18:51:56 rouslan: there's also lisp500 18:52:05 -!- madsy_ is now known as Madsy 18:52:16 ECL isn't simple, nor an interpreter (in the way you'd want to use it, anyway), but it is cool. 18:52:28 *hefner* has never tried compiling ECL in C++ mode 18:52:31 hefner: it's simple to interface with 18:52:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:52:44 It's a bytecode compiler and interpreter? 18:52:55 I'm assuming interface simplicity is what is being discussed and not implementation simplicity 18:53:15 rouslan: it compiles to your choice of C or bytecode, and has an interpreter. 18:53:21 I need a small interpreter which will be part of a C++ project. 18:53:44 yeah, ECL doesn't fit that spec. 18:53:50 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:30 rouslan, you may be interested in xcl, although I don't think it lets you bind to C++ code yet 18:54:47 I don't think lisp500 supports floating-point. 18:55:05 I'm sure it doesn't. But it's 500 lines - how hard could it be to add 18:55:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:12 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["have a good weekend everyone"] 18:55:35 *hefner* has a recent, perverse interest in the intersection of Lisp and C++ 18:56:11 I already modified femtoLisp for this purpose (http://computing-tools.com/lisp/) 18:56:31 rouslan: so.... problem solved? 18:56:54 dlowe: I really need floating-point support. 18:57:02 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:04 dlowe: It only has 30-bit integers. 18:57:20 rouslan: ah, I thought you meant you already modified femtoLisp to have floating-point support 18:57:23 use Lua, it *only* has floating point :) 18:57:35 hefner: really? not even fixed-point? 18:57:47 dlowe: that's what I've heard, anyway 18:58:06 lua can be recompiled to make all numbers integers, but the default is floating-point 18:58:27 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:29 dlowe: If I needed simple calculations I would have reserved the 3 LSDs for the fractional part, but this would lose a lot of precision with many operations. 18:59:37 I wonder, if you look at the C code that ECL compiles to - a sprawling, hyperverbose mess - would making good use of C++ features give you a target that look/feels nicer (and is more amenable to integration with existing code) 19:01:01 dlowe: I guess that I could *try* to add floating-point support, though it would be tedious. 19:01:33 rouslan: actually, libguile has a full numeric tower 19:02:06 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:09 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:40 -!- zophy [n=sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:58 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:08 dlowe: It has too many source files...I'm not sure exactly which ones I actually need, and what needs porting (for an embedded UNIX-based system). 19:05:15 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:05:31 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:46 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-24-83-187.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:06:04 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.44.171] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:06:38 Maybe I should consider TCL instead? 19:07:11 kejsaren2 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:12 ick... Lua is much easier to deal with than Tcl 19:07:48 is there not a scheme implementation that will work? 19:08:50 there's tinyscheme too 19:09:13 That's what I'm looking at: http://tinyscheme.sourceforge.net/home.html 19:09:13 or you could, you know, just write one. Lisp implementations aren't that hard to bootstrap 19:09:42 instructive and fun 19:10:56 jtza8_ [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-11-180.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:11:52 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:45 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:14:01 It works! Thanks. 19:14:28 Hmm: #include 19:15:16 -!- splittist [i=3ecbc0a2@gateway/web/freenode/x-vxkihegvityejoup] has quit ["Page closed"] 19:16:11 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:22 josemanuel [n=josemanu@157.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 fmu [i=root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 19:17:44 tinyscheme is pretty neat 19:18:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-nmnmbtxcelxyalgv] has joined #lisp 19:19:03 although rumour has it that embedding is guile's whole raison d'etre. 19:19:50 guile's not particularly standard though 19:21:31 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:39 jfm3 [n=user@216.156.98.230.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:52 inasmuch as any scheme is 'standard'? ;) 19:22:23 yates [n=yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has 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[n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:53 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:33:54 -!- RaceCondition [n=RaceCond@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 20:34:06 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 20:35:14 -!- Athas [n=athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:39 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:38:01 pr [n=pr@p579CA4A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:55 -!- mariorz [n=mariorz@li10-58.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 20:40:03 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:40:18 Fade pasted "Invalid protocol message related to autodoc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93754 20:40:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:42 tcr: that's the protocol message error I mentioned yesterday. 20:42:13 But autodoc works on other occasions? 20:42:37 starting it manually yesterday seemed to arrest the error popup buffer 20:44:02 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:44:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:40 I have no idea 20:44:47 hopefully I'll experience the same when I update 20:45:29 *Fade* nods 20:46:02 -!- Joreji_ is now known as Joreji 20:46:46 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:46 varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:52:31 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.92.17.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:52:32 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-29-182.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 -!- ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:50 ASau` [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:59:11 -!- marioxcc` [n=user@200.92.17.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01:31 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:01 francogrex [n=user@161.134-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:05:22 -!- SandGorgon_ [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:40 SandGorgon [n=OmNomNom@office.sea.jambool.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:54 varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:07:23 -!- TDT [n=dthole@dhcp80ff865b.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has left #lisp 21:09:45 very quite 21:10:08 quite so 21:11:46 Odditus [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has joined #lisp 21:13:12 I meant quiet 21:13:12 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229066181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:29 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 21:14:48 -!- Oddity [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:14:58 I will try something outrageous 21:14:59 digms [n=nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:27 best not 21:15:33 unless you're talking about code. 21:15:56 ys yes code 21:16:28 minion: chant? 21:16:29 MORE INTERFACE 21:16:33 Hrm... 21:16:41 I was expecting more code. 21:16:48 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@137.205.222.236] has left #lisp 21:17:01 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:17:25 how many different GCs can sbcl be built with? 21:17:59 I think two, but could be wrong. 21:18:07 on the clozure page there is a speed comparision that includes a line called "BOEHM-GC" or so. 21:18:33 1s... 21:18:34 SBCL has always had its own GCs, and hasn't really played well with others in that regard. 21:18:38 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051043210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:18:48 -!- ikki [n=ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:56 prxq [n=mommer@f051043210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:06 sorry. 21:19:23 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@d83-187-168-23.cust.tele2.at] has quit [K-lined] 21:19:54 i've heard conjecture that clozure cl is ahead of sbcl on the gc front, but I don't actually know. 21:20:00 http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/HowFastAreWe 21:20:16 Fade: it's not really clozure, it's the JVM. 21:20:27 Oops, sorry, I confused with clojure. 21:20:33 =) 21:20:45 there is a test called "boehm-gc" in that page. Anyone knows what it means? 21:21:04 Fade: on multicore business it is better, or at least looks better. 21:21:05 boehm-gc is a garbage collector library for C programs. 21:21:13 A conservative GC. 21:21:29 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:21:35 <_deepfire> Is #lisp aware of ymacs? 21:21:40 prxq: I think that is the name of a benchmark 21:21:41 pjb: yes, and I wonder how sbcl and ccl would run a test called boehm-gc 21:21:43 -!- varjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:44 *_deepfire* was just blown away 21:21:56 tcr: just a name? 21:22:07 prxq: It's probably a gc test proposed in a paper by boehm, or something on that line 21:22:17 ymacs? 21:22:26 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.147] has joined #lisp 21:22:49 <_deepfire> Fade, a faithful in-browser emacs implementation running on many modern browsers 21:23:04 does it use native-client? 21:23:06 tcr: that makes sense. 21:23:18 Does it run SLIME? 21:23:28 <_deepfire> Fade, I don't know what's native-client, but I guess not 21:23:51 DeusExPikachu [i=pikachu@anapnea.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:51 <_deepfire> nyef, there's no elisp support 21:24:05 So... what's the extension language? 21:24:17 sounds like javascript. :) 21:24:41 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:53 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:25:00 <_deepfire> nyef, I have no idea, although the server side is CL, AIUI 21:25:21 <_deepfire> hunchentoot, cl-who, you name it 21:26:38 erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:26:44 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-245-78.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:27:31 _8david [n=user@port-92-195-189-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:48 -!- gabnet [n=gabnet@7.23.67-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:28:18 http://www.ymacs.org/ 21:30:44 _8david` [n=user@port-92-195-66-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:47 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-189-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:32:35 wtgkntze [n=qxzv@dialin.inttek.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:42 -!- wtgkntze [n=qxzv@dialin.inttek.net] has quit [Success] 21:32:48 gack 21:33:02 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 21:33:32 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:33:38 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:54 was that an attck on people using erc? 21:34:12 I see it also on xchat 21:34:31 Yeah, a lot of people see CTCP VERSION requests. 21:35:23 most sane clients display them, unless they're explicitly quiesced. 21:35:30 Leads me to wonder about the possibility of adding a content-filter to all messages sent through an IRCD with optional actions to take when such messages are received such as an automatic disconnect. 21:35:52 xdylnpi [n=frmwkoxo@ool-4357e733.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:52 -!- xdylnpi [n=frmwkoxo@ool-4357e733.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:36:15 -!- francogrex [n=user@161.134-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:21 I suggest to go +R again 21:36:36 What's +R? 21:36:38 tcr: does that stop CTCP messages? 21:36:43 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:47 only registered users can speak 21:37:10 more important: only registered users can join 21:37:13 This isn't a PRIVMSG, though, it's a CTCP. 21:37:15 Ahh. 21:37:16 tcr, that's only +r 21:37:28 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-92-195-66-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:37:52 Didn't we go +R the last time and that helped? 21:38:03 that was witht he racist spam. 21:38:04 yes, and yes 21:38:10 in this case, I don't think it'd help. 21:38:19 no, there was an attack of this type before 21:38:20 yeah, +R prevents unregistered people from speaking. +r prevents them from joining. 21:38:40 <_3b> they were spamming in channel when +R helped, and switched to ctcp to avoid that 21:38:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:38:56 _8david` [n=user@port-92-195-66-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:06 it's the subsequent disconnects that interest me. 21:39:17 nprice [n=nprice@cpe-76-184-72-104.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:40:13 ... Is there a way to make XMLHTTPRequest perform arbitrary protocol handshaking, or to get it close enough to dump crap to IRC briefly? 21:40:41 dunno 21:41:02 my irc experience extends only so far as getting a bot I wrote functioning. 21:41:54 reshekel [i=fjWvABuC@Doberanala-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:58 mmv [n=dasynzac@78-86-171-176.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:41:58 lfw [n=bxcddav@xxx-16.adsl.newnet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:42:04 wovzhb [n=wwdn@78-86-171-176.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:42:06 great 21:42:08 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:42:13 -!- lfw [n=bxcddav@xxx-16.adsl.newnet.co.uk] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:42:14 -!- mmv [n=dasynzac@78-86-171-176.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:42:14 -!- wovzhb [n=wwdn@78-86-171-176.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:42:15 niko [i=niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #lisp 21:42:21 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 21:42:33 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:42:33 Dominian [i=dominian@freenode/staff/dominian] has joined #lisp 21:42:36 -!- LiamH [n=none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:42:42 that's just annoying 21:42:47 Xach, Xof: here? 21:42:53 I think that's the point. 21:42:56 -!- varjagg [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:08 -!- phf [n=user@host.icnfull.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:43:08 Some stupid window popups in gaim for this ctcp crap 21:43:11 turn off ctcp message notifications off in you clients. 21:43:12 tomaw [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 21:43:15 hijacking my input focus 21:43:28 <_3b> tcr: sounds like a broken client :p 21:43:28 s/you/your 21:43:29 tcr: ditto 21:43:36 haha, gaim for irc, srsly? 21:43:47 irssi ftw 21:43:53 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 21:43:57 riyhwlqhvr [n=rflhttkm@ip-83-134-235-89.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 21:43:57 -!- riyhwlqhvr [n=rflhttkm@ip-83-134-235-89.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:44:19 -!- tomaw has set mode +R 21:44:21 spffqsmbrm [n=yiwddv@dslb-094-222-060-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:24 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.147] has quit ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."] 21:44:25 -!- spffqsmbrm [n=yiwddv@dslb-094-222-060-247.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:44:26 Without question, do not click those links :) It will make you part of the spam :) 21:44:27 setting a register to join mode would probably help. 21:44:29 xnx [n=ndvhfg@dslc-082-082-166-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:30 pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.147] has joined #lisp 21:44:34 -!- timor1 [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:38 _8david [n=user@port-92-195-3-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:45 that's letting the terr'ists win. 21:44:48 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:48 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-92-195-66-160.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:44:53 hefner: I prefer to deal with pidgin weirdness than run a multiple messaging programs 21:45:00 -!- xnx [n=ndvhfg@dslc-082-082-166-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:45:01 looks like the freenode ops are on it. 21:45:14 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 opbsygo [n=tat@host-89-231-109-19.warszawa.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 xuctssyxdo [n=czybean@host-89-231-109-19.warszawa.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 21:45:39 -!- opbsygo [n=tat@host-89-231-109-19.warszawa.mm.pl] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:45:39 -!- xuctssyxdo [n=czybean@host-89-231-109-19.warszawa.mm.pl] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:45:50 francogrex [n=user@161.134-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:45:55 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [] 21:46:00 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-208.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:46:12 mtiuzzwsn [n=lemzbvr@c-98-224-210-159.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:12 -!- reshekel [i=fjWvABuC@Doberanala-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has left #lisp 21:46:49 I'm mucking around with cffi again... 21:47:23 -!- nprice [n=nprice@cpe-76-184-72-104.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:35 yxaaqbx [n=kmsylkp@84.72.247.181] has joined #lisp 21:47:39 -!- yxaaqbx [n=kmsylkp@84.72.247.181] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:47:51 ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:48:02 onfhesg [n=umvxgidr@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 ynrfenk [n=hzfb@evil.bz] has joined #lisp 21:48:06 emykutfxb [n=ebbxcofn@evil.bz] has joined #lisp 21:48:07 it seems the ops managed to muffle the things. 21:48:13 -!- emykutfxb [n=ebbxcofn@evil.bz] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:48:13 -!- ynrfenk [n=hzfb@evil.bz] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:48:22 For now, at least. 21:48:26 reshekel [i=fjWvABuC@Doberanala-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:27 yeah! bre4k those pipes! 21:48:45 -!- onfhesg [n=umvxgidr@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:48:51 _8david` [n=user@port-92-195-3-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:00 nln [n=flnp@188-221-61-55.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:49:23 what things? 21:49:34 onfhesg [n=umvxgidr@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:34 -!- onfhesg [n=umvxgidr@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:49:35 gzxhoqordp [n=bdifquqy@d-69-161-126-235.cpe.metrocast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:35 kuddpg [n=rqtqfek@d-69-161-126-235.cpe.metrocast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:37 -!- nln [n=flnp@188-221-61-55.zone12.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:49:42 -!- gzxhoqordp [n=bdifquqy@d-69-161-126-235.cpe.metrocast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:49:42 -!- kuddpg [n=rqtqfek@d-69-161-126-235.cpe.metrocast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:49:47 i sort of miss the days when freenode was a nice small ircnet that attracted not much attention from anybody but actual, you know, hacks. 21:49:51 dhlawxzprsrr [n=enw@d75-158-60-100.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:52 things, like gzxhoqordp 21:50:07 anbcnrbdtdg [n=csreht@s5592319e.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 21:50:12 it's getting more and more like efnet. :p 21:50:12 -!- dhlawxzprsrr [n=enw@d75-158-60-100.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:50:27 -!- anbcnrbdtdg [n=csreht@s5592319e.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:50:27 aicprhadcemk [n=hac@pool-173-63-221-12.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:31 dmwnyqw [n=btimlmy@pool-173-63-221-12.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:31 itdqosz [n=aaoukhvc@pool-173-63-221-12.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:31 -!- lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 21:50:31 -!- dmwnyqw [n=btimlmy@pool-173-63-221-12.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:50:31 -!- itdqosz [n=aaoukhvc@pool-173-63-221-12.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:50:40 what can one do? a registration only network? 21:50:46 interesting watching these bastards using zomies, though. 21:50:47 pr_ [n=pr@p579CA683.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:58 -!- aicprhadcemk [n=hac@pool-173-63-221-12.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:51:41 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:52:14 iukbmzyfb [n=ecggzyo@adsl-157-20-170.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:22 -!- reshekel [i=fjWvABuC@Doberanala-1-pt.tunnel.tserv9.chi1.ipv6.he.net] has left #lisp 21:52:24 iic, what happens is that if you click on one of those links, the browser starts a javascript that starts inventing users and joining IRC 21:52:30 ahh. it's javascript spambot. 21:52:34 i wonder how that works. 21:52:42 -!- iukbmzyfb [n=ecggzyo@adsl-157-20-170.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:52:49 -!- mtiuzzwsn [n=lemzbvr@c-98-224-210-159.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:06 you could ask mtiuzzwsn when he's back :-) 21:53:28 i was referring more to the technique. :) 21:53:34 Pull from the URL with wget and try to find the script? 21:53:35 bkneizm [n=uhlgooyc@201-68-57-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:53:35 -!- bkneizm [n=uhlgooyc@201-68-57-91.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:53:44 But I expect it's some use of XMLHTTPRequest. 21:53:59 mbzinc [n=ecshsdk@c-24-5-227-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:03 -!- mbzinc [n=ecshsdk@c-24-5-227-167.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:54:19 bklhha [n=kyazzvrd@90-231-71-114-no64.business.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:23 -!- bklhha [n=kyazzvrd@90-231-71-114-no64.business.telia.com] has quit [Broken pipe] 21:54:36 vohhsoswb [n=spksmdcd@75-111-128-205.tex.dyn.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:36 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f756705.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:03 we could deploy the #lisp drakma-based super computer to DDOS it 21:55:32 -!- vohhsoswb [n=spksmdcd@75-111-128-205.tex.dyn.suddenlink.net] has quit [K-lined] 21:56:05 i have a few 100 megabit links, but i'd really rather not saturate them on stupid. :) 21:56:09 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-163-159.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:06 Fade: me neither, I'm just avoiding the work I'm supposed to be 21:57:09 doing 21:57:10 ahh. the index downloads an invisible flash wedge 21:57:33 i hate flash. 21:58:01 nothings made me happier than youtube and vimeo adopting html5 video tags 21:58:06 flash needs to die :) 21:58:19 Fade: what's an invisible flash wedge? 21:58:40 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:06 it's a little piece of flash code that is invisible in the browser, but which allows you to escape the sandbox tht javascript otherwise imposes. 21:59:28 i've seen upload functionality built that way in various websites. 21:59:34 so it's a full compromise 21:59:53 well, it allows you to reach out to non-origin hosts 22:00:23 unless you're running a compromised flash plugin (many are), it won't be able to do much to your own computer. 22:00:34 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:00:42 but it could cause you to, say, connect to an irc server and start issuing malign ctcps 22:01:41 -!- Odditus [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has quit [] 22:01:46 not long ago, a guy named sasha lobo had a face to face encounter with real trolls, and took pictures. 22:02:02 if you want to look at the code, nyef is right. use wget and open the index.html in emacs. 22:02:14 google for "trollforschung" 22:02:29 Fade: I doubt I would understand anything 22:02:34 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:01 -!- _8david [n=user@port-92-195-3-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:40 -!- erjag [n=eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:20 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:06:40 I wonder what is the philosophy of life of trolls and spammers? how come they take that path, what do they gain? I don't see any benefits from those activities to them, they're justing wasting their lives like shit 22:06:43 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:06:54 spam gangs make real money. 22:07:00 it's straight forward. :) 22:07:24 the kiddiez are largely gone; today they're real criminals. 22:10:05 what are the guys behind these attacks trying to achieve? It seems to me that mild disruption is the only goal. 22:10:14 that said, there are softer targets than the people who hang out on freenode. 22:10:28 -!- UnwashedMeme1 [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:35 i suspect that the people that hit their jscript will have it in their caches for some time. 22:10:41 it could drive all kinds of mayhem. 22:11:25 It might also serve as a small test case for what they're really trying to accomplish. 22:11:30 spam, clickfraud, whatever. 22:13:01 unicode [n=user@95.214.19.31] has joined #lisp 22:13:26 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.19.31] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13:52 unicode [n=user@95.214.19.31] has joined #lisp 22:14:20 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["brb"] 22:17:04 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:00 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:58 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 22:23:57 well, as someone said, spammers targetting freenode seems like an exercise in futility 22:24:09 francogrex: why? 22:24:53 bc people is freenode are a little more enligtened than others 22:26:34 Works as a good measure of human gullibility, though. 22:26:47 francogrex: try #ubuntu. 22:27:16 nothing bad about them, but there are a few newbs there 22:27:34 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:11 and people might feel safe because they have that f1refox browser that's supposed to be secure 22:31:05 Conveniently forgetting that the only secure computer is turned off, completely unplugged, and buried in reinforced concrete. 22:31:54 that is true, but not really a useful definition of security 22:32:06 its a free solution as wel 22:32:09 well 22:32:37 -!- Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-208.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:43 Guthur: How do you figure? You still have to buy the concrete and the rebar! 22:32:45 unicode_ [n=user@95.214.93.142] has joined #lisp 22:33:03 -!- Raptelan_ [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:04 lol I didn't think that through 22:33:09 Raptelan [n=Raptelan@209.40.204.178] has joined #lisp 22:33:10 studies show that unplugging is enough in most cases 22:33:44 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-208.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 A Faraday cage might help in many of the remaining cases. 22:34:34 physical harddrive theft 22:34:48 I thought that would be the remaining case 22:35:04 Hard to steal something buried in reinforced concrete, though. 22:35:33 more in relation to prxq's free edition 22:35:50 And, at that, if you use decent crypto on your disk, it devolves to a denial of service. 22:35:52 the premium package covers it all of course 22:39:28 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:49:08 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.19.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:41 when dumps the xref database to a html? 22:50:49 what dumps the xref database to a html? 22:51:08 Phoodus [i=foo@97-124-117-72.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:35 -!- heow [n=heow@colo-69-31-43-106.pilosoft.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:56:45 nyef: I prefer granite mountains 22:57:02 adeht: It's harder to make new granite mountains on demand, though. 22:57:40 that's why we have NASA 22:58:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:58:39 NASA has granite-mountain-creation technology? 23:00:04 they can look for it 23:00:08 adeht: I thought granite mountains were why we had DOE and teams of social scientists trying to make sure folks didn't open Yucca Mountain for the next 10,000 years 23:02:13 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:49 you can drop the computer in a gas giant. that's better than strengthened concrete 23:03:26 The trick with that is getting the computer to the gas giant without it being intercepted en-route. 23:03:37 there are easier ways to destroy your computer, you know 23:04:01 Windows, for instance 23:04:55 Adamant: are you talking about this? http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/26-Witch-of-Yucca-Mountain.htm 23:05:09 Phoodus: That's hardly a method of -securing- a compuuter. 23:05:20 that's one of the things that has covered it 23:05:29 -!- _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:05:58 as much as I dislike Windows, MS is doing a better job of actually trying to secure their stuff than basically any of the Unix vendors at this point 23:06:16 it's just that they started out from a really bad position 23:06:43 and have a huge base of attackers from being so popular 23:08:05 people forget that Unix had horrible security compared to it's competitors in the 80's, but it kept improving. 23:08:13 _3b` [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:45 Adamant: is windows nowadays as good as linux, securitywise? 23:08:51 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:09:00 having a huge base of attackers is supposed to be an advantage, y'know 23:09:11 prxq: technology-wise about the same, there is just a huge attacker base. 23:09:30 the Linux distros that are much better than Windows are less mainstream 23:09:51 <_deepfire> Ok, so my jokes about decommissioned granite mountains doing nearly as well as new ones, in response to nyef's statement that new ones are hard to make, was lost to +R.. 23:10:09 klisto [n=klisto@189.138.167.46] has joined #lisp 23:10:25 Adamant: which distros do you have in mind? 23:10:38 <_deepfire> nyef, do you think that portable RUN-PROGRAM would make sense? 23:10:41 prxq: Gentoo Hardened and probably a few others 23:10:58 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@91.139.194.147] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:11:20 _deepfire: The problem is that it interacts with signal-handling, particularly SIGCHLD. 23:11:38 Adamant: I see. 23:11:49 good night 23:11:50 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051043210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:02 <_deepfire> nyef, do you think that heavy read conditionalisation won't help/would be unacceptable? 23:12:56 I think that I would be concerned about -other- uses for SIGCHLD handling beyond mere RUN-PROGRAM, TBH. 23:13:23 (What other uses? ptrace(2).) 23:14:06 <_deepfire> So you say that current SBCL's implementation makes a suboptimal (wasteful) use of the SIGCHLD resource? 23:14:24 I don't know. 23:14:43 I actually tend not to use run-program from SBCL very much anyway. 23:15:00 And I find asynchronous signals such as SIGCHLD to be a bad idea in general. 23:15:37 But, essentially, SIGCHLD handling needs to be multiplexed, just as non-blocking I/O does. 23:16:12 marioxcc [n=user@200.92.23.60] has joined #lisp 23:16:50 ruediger_ [n=quassel@188-23-181-145.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:17:10 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:26 I am also not worrying about it very much, as I'm currently trying to tie up loose ends with wider-fixnums, and then I'm giving some consideration to attempting to move to windows as my primary development environment. 23:17:37 And windows has a whole separate set of run-program issues. 23:17:46 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:23 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:19:24 what is the lisp command to determine the type of an expression? 23:19:33 clhs type-of 23:19:38 clhs typeof 23:19:41 Hrm... 23:19:57 Oh, right, specbot isn't registered. 23:20:09 type-of 23:20:16 nyef: thanks 23:20:29 Note that that's not the only type of the expression, just -a- type. 23:21:33 -!- happycube [n=cpage@208.1.239.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:44 happycube [n=cpage@208.1.239.35] has joined #lisp 23:22:40 is there any real difference between (list 1 2 3) and (list :a 1 :b 2 :c 3)? 23:22:54 the latter is a plist, but type-of doesn't see a difference 23:22:59 right? 23:23:49 a plist is just a list of ordered pairs. (type-of ..) will return cons for both. 23:23:51 There's a real difference, but plists are an abstraction built on top of lists, and an implementation can't really tell the difference in type-of, as it's a property of the -use- of the list. 23:24:28 the map is not the territory. :) 23:24:31 Fade: Is that return guaranteed by the standard? 23:24:33 ah. makes sense. 23:24:36 Heh. NLP? 23:24:57 nyef, I'm not sure, actually 23:25:29 Odditus [n=Oddity@66.183.67.202] has joined #lisp 23:25:55 but it's certainly the case, with all the lisps I have here. 23:25:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.10] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:26:00 sbcl, ccl, and clisp 23:29:33 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:32:31 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 23:32:56 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@91-115-22-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:00 -!- Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:09 -!- quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:11 -!- francogrex [n=user@161.134-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:44 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:36:23 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:17 -!- astalla [n=astalla@93-36-230-11.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:42:13 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 23:42:30 -!- klisto [n=klisto@189.138.167.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:11 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:48:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:10 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-96-224-31-174.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:12 ... Do code components have unboxed-literals between the boxed-literals and the first function header? 23:55:11 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:35 nyef: no. 23:57:42 Okay, thanks. 23:58:00 *nyef* kills a few words from his current draft. 23:58:52 there's no explicit support for unboxed literals. 23:59:30 Hrm... I'm going to have to add something about header values to this.