00:00:02 Something as simple as (sample *rng* 'uniform) failed 00:00:22 Lithos: because you put () around it 00:00:32 leo2007: I think that was meant for me? 00:00:32 -!- soupdragon [n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:00:41 `,(+ 5 1) would be 6 00:00:54 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:15 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:01:35 LiamH: yeah. the fault of my rcirc ;) 00:01:50 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 00:01:55 Ok 00:02:20 leo2007: Some of those errors are non-errors, just machine epsilon problems, like GAMMA. 00:03:06 leo2007: which in principle can be fixed by setting lisp-unit:*epsilon* high enough 00:03:21 LiamH: seem so. 00:03:48 leo2007: what kind of hardware do you have? 32 bit or 64? 00:03:50 -!- qbg [n=chatzill@74.33.104.154] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054634]"] 00:04:15 rahul: btw, good interface to async IO would be necessary for me later on, when I get around to porting SBCL to certain systems that don't have sync. IO at all :D 00:04:22 I am running on leopard 10.5.8 with a macbook from 2009, the hardware is capable of 64bit but the software is 32bit, I think. 00:05:09 leo2007: oh, a mac. Well, those epsilons need to be tweaked anyway. 00:05:26 leo2007: dinner time, back later 00:05:51 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 00:07:26 *p_l* idly notes that there are operating systems that have no notion of Synchronous I/O 00:11:23 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:35 Grissom [n=Grissom@bolide.parc.xerox.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:08 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 00:13:44 -!- _icecube_ [n=icecube@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["shutdown -h now"] 00:14:58 -!- jtza8 [n=jtza8@iburst-41-213-20-155.iburst.co.za] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:16:03 quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:16 Why doesn't symbol-value work for lexically-bound symbols? 00:18:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:18:28 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:18:34 benny` [n=benny@i577A7B9F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:38 Doesn't the environment keep track of the bindings, even though they're determined lexically? 00:20:14 quotemstr: that'd make static analyses much harder. Back in cltl2, it would have been possible to portably implement something like that. 00:20:45 The environment frobbing functions didn't make it into CL-the-spec, unfortunately. 00:21:13 I realized that static scoping can be accomplished by just replacing each free variable reference with a reference to the value to which that symbol is currently a reference at defun-time. 00:21:18 (Or lambda.) 00:21:46 what? 00:23:20 How would that be implemented? 00:23:23 -!- mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [] 00:23:48 quotemstr: there are no symbols for symbol-value to work on by the time run time rolls around. 00:24:08 (or : variables and symbols are different things) 00:25:13 Well, imagine you're trying to figure out how to implement static scope with closures. When a function object is created, its free variable references need to refer to the value cells of the symbols that were active when it was defined. 00:25:39 active symbol? 00:25:53 And they need to refer to the value cells of the variables the function closes over. 00:25:58 Err, I'm probably using strange terminology. Each symbol has an associated value, or it's unbound. 00:26:04 Right. 00:26:07 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:48 -!- benny` is now known as benny 00:27:03 -!- redline6561 [n=AndChat@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:38 So when creating a function object, the input is a list of symbols from the lisp reader. Just replace each symbol that references a free variable with an uninterned symbol that references the value cell that the originally-read-in symbol had at the time the function to create the function object was called. 00:28:56 But you can skip that and go straight to the value cell without having to go through an intermediate uninterned symbol. 00:30:12 -!- grouzen_ [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:42 What did these cltl environment functions allow you to do exactly? 00:33:39 quotemstr: I'm not perfectly clear on what the uninterned symbol gives you, but if it is essential to the scheme, you have to allocate a fresh one for each binding (so whenever a scope is entered), or you'll have issues with recursive higher-order functions. 00:35:11 minion: tell quotemstr about cltl2 00:35:12 quotemstr: have a look at cltl2: "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd ed" is a book by Guy Steele that describes the state of Common Lisp as it was partway through the ANSI process. http://www.cliki.net/cltl2 00:36:03 cltl28.5 00:36:11 cltl2 8.5 00:36:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 8.5. 00:36:20 cltl2 environments 00:36:21 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for environments. 00:36:33 hrm 00:36:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:13 pkhuong: Imagine an implementation where all variable references had to go through a symbol. That is, (funcall a b c) became (funcall (symbol-value 'a) (symbol-value 'b) (symbol-value 'c)). 00:37:50 pkhuong: In order to make something like that statically-scoped, you'd need to transform the function so that a, b, and c were unique, right? 00:37:54 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-4-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:37:57 not enough 00:38:33 (defun foo (x) ... (foo x)). The x in the recursive call to foo must be different. 00:39:04 cltl2-section Macros 00:39:04 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node60.html 00:39:05 Well, the function parameters and any let-bound variables are bound dynamically the usual way. 00:39:14 (I believe it's called shallow binding.) 00:39:15 quotemstr: which isn't enough. 00:39:18 It 00:39:32 (defun foo (x fn) ... (foo .. (lambda () x))). 00:39:34 stassats`: thanks... i've been trying to figure that out and specbot is no help! 00:40:28 stassats`: can it go right to 8.5? 00:40:30 cltl2-section Environments 00:40:31 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html 00:40:36 It's not enough for lexically distinct variables to map to different symbols: two instances of the same lexical scope must have distinct activation records. 00:40:38 that's it 00:41:55 pkhuong: Before the recursive call to foo, lambda is called. It sees the free variable reference x and transforms it to a new symbol x-foo. The value pointer in x-foo refers to the same value that x [the function parameter] refers to. 00:42:15 stassats`: nice! 00:42:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:42:59 pkhuong: Then foo is called. 'x' is dynamically bound to a new value, but the old value is still present. So if in the recursive invocation, foo executes, say, (setq x 4) (funcall x) , the result of the funcall isn't necessarily 4. 00:43:06 pkhuong: Am I missing something? 00:43:09 quotemstr: and how will lambda-generated functions keep track of which symbol should be used? 00:43:58 You seem to be implementing static scoping with static scoping. 00:44:39 pkhuong: lambda looks for variable references that aren't function parameters and that aren't bound in the body of the function, then looks up the call stack and... ah. 00:44:41 Right. 00:44:51 Hrm. 00:45:21 So what is the right way to do it? 00:45:35 -!- unicode [n=user@95.214.58.214] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:45:35 there are many right ways... 00:45:49 depending on how efficient you want to be 00:45:56 snowbeard [n=user@cpe-065-190-191-189.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:15 typically, closures are implemented as a pair of environment and a function that takes the environment as an extra argument. 00:46:30 The simplest possible way that's still correct? 00:46:31 With dozens of ways to implement the environment. 00:47:57 Which function takes the environment, exactly? Lambda? 00:48:04 -!- Sumpen [n=Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:48:39 no... the function that is a closure 00:48:55 Assume that you have first-order toplevel (that close over nothing) functions. 00:48:57 lambda is not a function 00:49:06 That's easy; even C supports that! 00:49:07 Well, it's a special form. 00:49:35 right, and special forms can't be called 00:49:45 *first-class toplevel functions 00:49:46 they are part of the primitive evaluation rules 00:50:07 rahul: Granted, but I'm *talking* about the primitive evaluation rules. :-) 00:50:17 pkhuong: Right. Good so far. 00:50:22 right, so lambda creates one of these toplevel functions out of the code that's in the body, with the args specified plus one extra for the environment 00:50:31 quotemstr: which don't involve calling functions 00:50:38 Now, we want to implement first-class functions with arbitrary lexical scoping on top of that. The idea is that lambda make it so that a toplevel function is generated, with an extra argument for the environment in which closed-over bindings will be looked up. 00:50:48 quotemstr: they involve, in a compiler, transforming code into another language 00:50:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 00:51:21 The environment is managed explicitly, so the generated function doesn't need to close over anything (it can be hoisted to the top level). 00:51:24 rahul: Or a straight-up interpreter, mixing the interpreter's stack with the language's. That's the case I'm thinking of, rather than a compiler with separate execution. 00:51:43 erm. 00:52:13 quotemstr: same thing. You have some representation for toplevel functions, pass that, along with the environment. 00:52:27 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:53:11 -!- re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:54:11 pkhuong: And this environment is shared among all functions generated in a particular lexical environment. 00:54:29 maybe, maybe not. 00:54:30 Say, (let ((x 5)) (list (lambda () (incf x)) (lambda () (decf x))) 00:54:50 The two generated functions would have the same environment parameter? 00:54:57 if the variables are shared, the environment has to be shared somehow 00:54:59 Conceptually, it's always a fresh environment. How environments are created depends on the implementation. 00:55:10 or at least, that part of the environment structure needs to be shared 00:55:19 rahul: or rather, the environments must refer to some shared substructure. 00:55:24 right 00:55:33 Which may or may not be the whole environment itself. 00:55:42 yep, implementation detail 00:56:37 -!- carlocci [n=nes@93.37.219.213] has quit ["eventually IE will rot and die"] 00:56:45 And the environment is essentially a set of references to value cells. 00:56:51 quotemstr: or not. 00:57:07 Depending on how the environment is implemented, there may not be any need for value cells. 00:57:18 -!- drwhat [n=d@98.225.208.183] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:22 what's a "value cell" anyway? 00:57:35 rahul: The thing that changes when you call setq. 00:57:39 rahul: it's the famed shared substructure. 00:57:50 IOW, "something" 00:58:11 no need to invent a term that has no meaning :) 00:58:44 "value cell" in lisp only means the part of a symbol object that stores a dynamic binding 00:58:55 which doesn't exist in many modern implementations 00:59:11 rahul: value slot, maybe. 00:59:30 I still don't quite grasp how that relates to the activation record though. If a closure is a (function, environment) pair, when wouldn't a recursive invocation of the closure share the same environment? 00:59:31 slot, cell, location, whatever you want to call it 00:59:47 quotemstr: no, because the recursive call has a different environment... 00:59:54 because it has a different activation record 01:00:00 So a new environment is constructed for every activation record? 01:00:07 not necessarily 01:00:19 a new environment may be generated for every closure 01:00:53 quotemstr: haven't you read PAIP yet? 01:01:03 Nope. 01:01:07 well, then 01:01:12 read it :) 01:01:12 LiSP would be more appropriate. 01:01:16 sure 01:01:19 either one 01:01:30 LiSP? 01:01:37 I just thought he had PAIP 01:01:46 Well, I'll have to give it some thought. You only need to construct an environment for the closed-over variables, right? 01:01:48 minion: lisp 01:01:49 lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 01:02:11 quotemstr: that's all that strictly needs to be represented in the environment 01:02:11 may be helpful. 01:02:38 rahul: So isn't my symbol-renaming trick just creating an implicit environment? 01:03:18 quotemstr: you'd need to rename symbols to something new every time a function is called 01:03:28 That's what I was talking about. 01:03:33 bizarre 01:03:41 quotemstr: no. How do functions know which symbol to use? 01:04:08 right, those symbols would need to go into some environment 01:04:28 But the record could be part of the calling function's metadata. 01:04:30 or the function body itself would need to be codewalked and have those symbols substituted 01:04:33 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:37 "In this function, symbol b was renamed to b-foo" 01:04:40 what calling function? 01:04:56 so you'd have an environment object that maps symbols to other symbols 01:05:07 rahul: Right. I was imagining a code-walker. You need a code walker no matter what in order to allocate the environment, right? 01:05:07 instead of just mapping symbols to values 01:05:44 any interpreter or compiler needs to walk code, sure 01:05:55 once 01:05:57 quotemstr: you could use explicit substitution, but performance would likely be atrocious. 01:05:58 but creating a closure shouldn't need to walk code every time 01:06:19 you're copying the code every time it gets executed 01:09:02 -!- timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:09:03 -!- spn [n=spn@adsl-68-122-28-85.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:14:52 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:05 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 01:17:40 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:47 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:39 sorry, I mean you're copying the 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anekos kencausey rey_ cods djm 01:42:23 -!- Grissom [n=Grissom@bolide.parc.xerox.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:46 Of course implementing it that way would be a bad idea. 01:45:04 I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something conceptually by thinking the semantics would be equivalent. 01:47:41 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 01:53:21 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 01:53:21 quidnunc [n=user@bas16-montreal02-1242357571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:53:21 benny [n=benny@i577A7B9F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:53:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:21 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:21 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 01:53:21 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:21 madnificent 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-!- bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:55:13 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:14 quotemstr: one way is to replace all variables with numbers 01:57:31 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:33 quotemstr: and make the activation record contain an array that represents the bindings 01:57:43 the number is the index into that array 01:58:51 or into a list for shared subtructure and O(1) environment creation. 01:59:28 or a vector of vector, etc. 02:00:51 pkhuong: Yeah: somebody else recommended the spaghetti stack approach. 02:01:03 well, right, the activation record would contain references to the dynamic and static parents 02:01:12 if you heap allocated them 02:01:45 but there are many many ways to vary this 02:02:18 or a list of vectors, ... 02:03:11 Intuitively, wouldn't the thing to do to be to compile to bytecode, and provide bytecode instructions to load from slot N of either the activation record or the environment? 02:03:16 each cons cell in that list can be considered an activation record :) 02:03:28 Compilation to byte-code is pretty much irrelevant here. 02:03:29 rahul: In the split stack approach? 02:03:33 CAR points to the environment for that function, CDR points to the lexically surrounding activation record 02:03:34 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:56 quotemstr: if you compiled to bytecode, that would be what you'd emit 02:03:59 The important thing is that you need to allocate those records with the longest extent of every closure over it. 02:04:10 Which is often indefinite. 02:04:53 right 02:05:17 So I'd suggest that you start from the general case of allocating everything with indefinite extent. 02:05:49 And then add in optimizations, like using stack allocation for objects of known extent, where appropriate. 02:05:58 Eni 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as marioxcc 02:44:19 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:42 c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has joined #lisp 02:46:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:48:58 Seems awfully quiet in here. 02:49:31 Mu. 02:50:26 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:51:03 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 02:51:25 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:57 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:34 -!- Alabaman_ [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:54:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:55:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:21 Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:05 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:25 -!- Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:58:55 fractalis: happens 02:59:21 fractalis: sometimes, you get much more traffic here 03:02:41 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:04:25 even virtual bar fights 03:04:49 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:04:54 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 03:09:41 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 03:11:42 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has joined #lisp 03:11:47 Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 03:12:01 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:12:06 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 03:12:09 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:12:49 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:13:41 or quite serious discussions regarding asking random females for sex (srsly - that was probably the weirdest off-topic on this channell that I have seen) 03:14:29 thematically appropriate. 03:14:41 p_l: when did this happen 03:14:46 p_l: haha. 03:14:59 gibranian: I don't have exact date, but I'm guilty ;-) 03:15:33 p_l: i mean did it happen recently 03:15:41 the funny thing is that the "research" that sparkled it was iirc quoted by me from second-hand story of a certain IBM engineer/programmer 03:15:49 gibranian: I'd say around a year ago 03:16:16 careful, you are doing everything to let it happen again 03:17:01 stassats`: no way 03:17:10 I'm not going to quote the same stuff again. NO WAI 03:17:20 it's not my fault if they search the archives 03:17:55 *p_l* already stopped caring about his reputation, it won't be better, only worse 03:18:41 ^_3akoD93 [i=06ROFNWr@CPE-121-216-123-77.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:18:45 -!- ^_3akoD93 [i=06ROFNWr@CPE-121-216-123-77.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 03:19:03 p_l: anyway, i'm not suprised, in fact i've thought that irc channels as the platforms for exactly this purposes for a long time, because the most famous local chat servers were full of this sh.t, i didn't know freenode. 03:20:10 konr [n=user@189.96.56.96] has joined #lisp 03:20:38 i thought they were joking when i first saw the irc channels like lisp as programming related discussion 03:22:48 -!- Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:01 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 03:23:50 and then i visited the channel for a minute, woow, people, instead of perverts 03:24:52 but then, they were using Lisp, that's excusable 03:25:21 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wspidwtuyjinqhue] has joined #lisp 03:26:05 :p 03:26:50 quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:05 lol 03:28:04 now that i shouldn't keep going off-topic, i need to ask, is really using two in-package's in the same file mostly cause a problematic situation or is it just not proper and decrease readability 03:28:25 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@93-82-4-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:42 not a problem at all. 03:28:55 gibranian: It might decrease readability and might confuse things like SLIME 03:29:01 quotemstr__ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:02 gibranian: slime had issues with it at one point, but it's not a problem anymore AFAIK 03:29:03 p_l: no, SLIME handles that fine. 03:29:05 it won't confuse slime 03:29:30 did it ever confuse slime or am i misremembering? 03:29:34 pkhuong: Oh? Haven't really checked, I kept to one package per file except for hotpatches 03:29:40 ok, so everyone tried that once :p 03:29:58 except p_l 03:30:07 gibranian: if it makes sense, do it. 03:30:18 gibranian: I'm using it in .sbclrc and when hotpatching things 03:30:35 -!- quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:31:16 usually not, just that i did it once in something i work on and i kept getting errors but i couldn't track it down somehow, so i thought, ok, probably in-packages 03:32:02 -!- quotemstr [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:32:38 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 03:35:24 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:39:16 cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:44 Anyone here use Allegro? 03:42:16 dys` [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:32 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:37 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:43:40 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:35 are there any indentation sensitive Lisp dialects? 03:44:47 fractalis: yes 03:44:52 what's up? 03:44:53 -!- quotemstr__ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:46:34 rich: I was just curious what your thoughts are of it. I'm looking at it from more of a personal/hobby type environment and not so much a commercial need for it. 03:46:47 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:55 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:19 bitflip [n=user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:31 ah, Lispin 03:48:08 what does Allegro have that, say, SBCL does not? asking to know 03:48:21 badbear4225 [n=snowman4@76-231-141-144.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:31 RaceCondition: smoking hot C++ FFI? 03:48:48 (from things that you might access on free version) 03:48:59 but the commercial version? has even more goodies? 03:49:37 pjb [n=t@210.Red-88-30-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:42 RaceCondition: delivery system, GUI tools, lots of libraries prepackaged (that are written for Allegro and distributed with it etc.) 03:50:06 you might also get a license for Allegro CLIM implementation etc. 03:50:08 delivery is really nice. 03:50:15 p_l: but when developing with Allegro, would I still use Emacs and SLIME or does it have its own IDE and if yes, does it need SLIME? 03:50:30 RaceCondition: it has its own IDE; you can also use SLIME if you want. 03:50:30 p_l: Not to mention supported by a dedicated development team, as opposed to relying on people contributing to the project in their free-time. 03:50:33 you could, it does, and no 03:50:33 RaceCondition: It has its own IDE, but it also can be used with SLIME 03:50:45 fractalis: also, a big bill 03:50:50 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:55 fractalis: for the price of an ACL license, you could easily get support from sb-studio. 03:50:58 p_l: so it has SLIME features built-in as well or you'd still need SLIME for that? 03:51:05 fractalis: useful thing when you just need those several thousands dollars in "Costs" for accounting 03:51:14 I've been generally disappointed in the free alternatives to the things that ACL has 03:51:15 RaceCondition: SLIME is just another possible interface 03:51:25 ok 03:51:25 for example, it has a great SOAP server and client 03:51:39 and Elephant is no competition for AllegroCache 03:51:50 rich_holygoat: rucksack, maybe. 03:51:52 rich_holygoat: no, but rucksack is ... apples and oranges 03:51:55 wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81409a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:09 That's a problem I've had with Allegro, I've looked at it in the past. I think their enormous licensing costs really end up hurting the language significantly, I think if people had an implementation like that available at a much reduced cost (or for free, and adopt a pay-for-support model) then you'd see a lot more commercial Lisp development. 03:52:32 -!- badbear4225 [n=snowman4@76-231-141-144.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:52:34 drewc: is it finished yet? 03:52:35 fractalis: bollocks 03:52:40 rich_holygoat: define finished 03:52:42 heh 03:53:01 rich_holygoat: does it have a prolog or sql query language? no... 03:53:06 fractalis: have you actually talked to Franz? their licensing/fee frameworks are very, very flexible. 03:53:15 they are? 03:53:25 Phoodus: yes. 03:53:26 we tried getting a license that wouldn't screw us for cloud computing, and they wouldn't budge 03:53:26 rich: No, I've not - but I was unaware of that, thank you for correcting me. 03:53:37 in fact, I couldn't even tell you what the standard was 03:53:42 fractalis: lispworks is as good as it, it is cheaper i guess, it doesn't have per licence fees but still, the commercial lisp thing doesn't work this way 03:53:52 it's amazing how many people go on about Allegro being this big, evil expensive thing, but have never talked to Franz about pricing. 03:53:59 we have 03:54:20 Phoodus: they might not be ready for the demands of cloud yet. 03:54:24 nor is it that evil... Franz does give away a bunch of software, and sponsor things 03:54:32 fractalis: the only thing that triggers increase in commercial apps is commercial apps themselves i guess 03:54:35 the only really cheap commercial implementation right now is probably Corman, plus maybe SCL now that they switched their licensing 03:54:37 (give away both open source and gratis) 03:54:40 and yes, they're needlessly expensive for many different types of deployments that they don't already have a line item for 03:54:51 drewc: I saw a price on their site starting at $599, perhaps that's reasonable - but for a small start-up company that might be hard to justify when they could easily adopt tools like Python or Ruby for free. 03:55:01 fractalis: that's cheap! 03:55:10 how much do you bill per hour? 03:55:13 for a Lisp newb such as myself, should I keep at it with Emacs+SLIME+SBCL rather than looking into LispWorks Personal edition? 03:55:14 fractalis: how much do you.. right (: 03:55:19 fractalis: i have microphones worth more than that, and i'm an amateur musician. 03:55:21 lispworks professional license is $1,500 03:55:36 the average software developer at a company costs the company $100 per hour in salary and fees 03:55:48 this is the "buy your developers two displays" argument 03:55:59 felideon: usually upsell features aren't required for personal fiddling with a language. But when you've got a commercial goal to meet, those features come in awfully handy 03:56:06 if you save even a few hours trying to get a SOAP library working, you might as well buy ACL 03:56:24 (ever tried writing a MSFT-compatible SOAP server in Python?) 03:56:37 Franz will offer you a deal where you don't have to buy ACL licenses.... ;) 03:56:40 (I have... I switched to ACL) 03:56:45 heh 03:56:51 felideon: i think you should start with whichever you are comfortable, some time later your needs will assist you if you need to switch among them 03:57:12 felideon: do you need something that lispworks offers? Do the people you work with use lispworks? 03:57:39 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72ec61.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:58:43 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:56 fractalis: also... i don't understand what python and ruby have to do with it.. it's not between ACL and python, it's ACL and free lisps that a startup would choose from... 03:59:07 i assume someone wanting to use lisp would not settle for python. 04:00:30 As I mentioned, I was unaware of their flexibility in licensing fees - and I am almost certain that whatever you end up paying you're definitely getting your money's worth. I'm not arguing that. Like I said, I'm going to try their free version - but I know personally that I'd end up having to purchase the software out of my own pocket if I wanted to upgrade from the free version, for whatever reason. 04:00:47 drewc: Well, that's quite true as well. 04:01:11 the free version has nag screens, and a 25MB RAM limit last time I tried it. They might have upped the limit, but you can get a lot done for interactive development in those boundaries 04:01:12 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as Royal_Dansk 04:01:29 or mail them and ask them for a trial license 04:01:32 Phoodus: Free version's heap size is up to 60MB now, iirc 04:01:37 k 04:01:41 is the price so high simply because the market is small? 04:01:48 drewc: it should be safe to -R the channel now as long as somebody keeps an eye on things - I'll be around for a while longer at least 04:02:06 the price is high because enterprises and the government haggle downwards, not upwards 04:02:17 -!- drewc has set mode -R 04:02:24 but if you're not in a position with weight to haggle... 04:02:25 at least, that's my impression 04:02:26 kloeri_: much oblidged! 04:02:32 no problem 04:02:32 pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:35 litherp2: I wouldn't say that, Allegro, from my impression, has created a very amazing product - I'm sure the cost is easily justifiable in an enterprise setting. 04:02:42 Phoodus: then I wouldn't imagine they expect you to have money to pay, either 04:02:55 same as when you're an independent consultant 04:02:56 we've got a budget 04:03:05 my fees are flexible according to the work and the customer 04:03:12 we don't have huge industry clout, and are not long-standing customers that they want to keep happy 04:03:28 Phoodus: so they rejected you? 04:03:32 but they had no leeway whatsoever in licensing terms 04:03:38 we had a research license for a couple of years 04:03:41 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:02 fnordus [n=dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 04:04:13 found a ton of very fundamental bugs in their threading and networking, which they were responsive to fix, but made us wonder how much this stuff is actually used for real 04:04:22 fractalis: i should agree with this, ACL provides a great ide worth the money. just that it is worth the money which i don't have 04:05:55 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 04:06:21 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 04:07:23 gib: That was what I was trying to get at. Perhaps the free version would suffice for what I intend to do with it, which is purely recreational, but if I ever wanted to upgrade to a commercial license to be able to do more in that recreational setting I would have to pay for it myself. Of course, I don't have to use Allegro either, I could just as easily use SBCL or anything really, just that the product seems very attractive imo. 04:07:46 so is the whole problem that lisp hobbyists/semi-pros don't have the same quality tools for free as other languages? 04:08:11 the whole issue is just questioning the justification for the high prices 04:08:21 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [] 04:08:34 -!- wakeup^ [n=wakeup@koln-5d819027.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:36 since these companies sell to the general market, but seem to price themselves to limit themselves only to fairly serious corporate customers 04:08:40 these companies probably cater to enterprises, as i think somebody mentioned. 04:08:45 even though Joe Average also uses and wants to push lisp 04:08:53 well, so far I don't have use for most of the "advanced features" from ACL, so I keep to SBCL+CCL+ECL 04:09:03 And the vast lisp market probably requires fairly high prices to support a few companies. 04:09:20 high prices compared to what? Genera costs 5k! 04:09:39 ACL cost us 7k/year iirc 04:10:26 Zhivago: that's actually true for just about PLish market. 04:10:32 *every PLish 04:10:34 would have gotten much better usage out of that money having a part-time office admin :-P 04:10:38 Except for C :) 04:10:55 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:10:57 Zhivago: no, nobody pays for C compilers. 04:11:01 why don't people get together and create an open source alternative to what those companies provide? 04:11:06 they do 04:11:08 p_l: I have no doubts that SBCL et al. are just as viable. 04:11:22 just that the corporates can develop faster becuase they have dedicated, paid people working on theirs 04:11:27 Some people do. 04:11:28 litherp2: are you serious? what is sbcl/ccl/clisp/abcl etc? 04:11:32 fractalis: from what i have learnt from my newbiest lessons, thinking about the implementation to choose is a total waste of time, i would choose which i'm comfortable with at first, and it is very easy to switch to another for a newbie if needed, because then you'll have an argument to switch, and this argument will lead you to choose which one. 04:11:51 drewc: so what are people complaining about then? 04:11:54 Start with the easiest to install, which is often clisp. 04:12:17 litherp2: they are complaining because they are broke i guess. 04:12:27 i spent weeks choosing, and when i really needed a feature that is not provided by every implementation, i switched again 04:12:43 is it the IDE, or very specific libraries that nobody wants to do? 04:12:57 (the ACL docs tell you not to use the IDE, but to use SLIME :-P ) 04:13:26 but the IDE is reasonable for a debugging environment and working with their GUI libs 04:13:37 though, ACL isn't the best implementation for Slime 04:14:02 How can I iterate through a CFFI cenum? 04:15:06 Franz tends to encourage its own ilisp mode, or SLIME, but the IDE does get developed 04:16:02 it's funny looking at software costs 04:16:04 Good morning! 04:16:10 morning beach 04:16:22 our company pays more than that for phone service each *day* 04:16:32 yes, clisp ide is quite nice, it even provides lighting 04:16:43 and setting up a new DC can be hundreds of thousands in hardware 04:16:47 well, ascii lighting 04:16:48 clisp has an IDE? 04:16:51 rich_holygoat: and 90% of the companiesout there aren't liket hat 04:16:58 oh, I get it. 04:17:04 that's true, but that ain't marketing 04:17:18 it's the customer base 04:17:23 and solving that problem is what tiered pricing and account managers are for 04:17:27 drewc: not really. I kinda like how the integrated IDE appears to work (haven't tried it yet). is it as easy to debug in LispWorks than it is in SLIME? I'm used to Visual Studio debugging where you can hover over variables and it shows you the value, where you have a watch panel where you can enter variables tha are in scope, how you can visually step through, etc. I really don't mind stepping out of that comfort zone (why I 04:17:27 lisp in the first place) but the few times I've tried debugging lisp code it hasn't been very intuitive. 04:17:47 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:17:47 Ralith: but it indeed has an ide-ish thing i guess, visual clisp? i don't really know the features. 04:19:37 felideon: ime, the best way to debug is to take a step back, think hard, insert a couple print/breakpoints, run and think again. 04:20:30 pkhuong: That sounds pretty basic. I had expected more tools from you. 04:20:33 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:43 felideon: than start with a personal edition of commercial ide, both are very nice, it may be scary to both get used to emacs slime and common lisp at the same time, get used to lisp first, then you may not find it very hard to switch. 04:21:05 pkhuong: true, that's what I've been doing so far in Lisp. the Visual Studio style seems a little lazier, and maybe even more time consuming. (i.e. stepping through too quickly, having to restart the app and its current state, etc.) 04:21:40 beach: nope. Well, pen, paper, post-its and an index? 04:21:54 felideon: btw, there are so much acl users who choose slime as an ide for acl, they probably have a reason, you should keep that in mind. 04:22:14 felideon: the SLIME debugger is a lot better than anything offered by any other environment i've used... 04:22:18 gibranian: yeah, although on the other hand I do like being in Emacs :) 04:22:22 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 04:22:30 gibranian: org-mode, erc, etc 04:22:35 felideon: you probably just don't quite know how to use it properly yet. 04:22:39 felideon: use elisp :p 04:22:56 well, debugger + inspector 04:23:09 drewc: that's correct, I haven't doven (sp?) into it yet. 04:23:14 is there any way to inspect a cffi cenum? 04:23:16 beach: my main tool is actually trying to prove that the bug can't happen to see where the proof fails. That tends to give me a nice test case. 04:23:24 i recently added C-y binding to SLDB, it will insert a call to a frame into the repl, should be useful to debug unknown software 04:23:34 pkhuong: I see. 04:24:28 it seems like they're internally hashtables 04:24:33 how can I get at said hashtables? 04:25:03 lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 04:27:46 the only accessors I can find aren't exported 04:27:56 and are clearly intended for specialized internal use 04:28:26 -!- marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:29 Malaysia definitely has better weather than Switzerland this time of year, for my australian genes :) 04:28:59 lukego: Don't remind me. I just got back to Bordeaux from Saigon. :( 04:29:33 -!- pjb [n=t@210.Red-88-30-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:42 what's the best tool for quickly generating nice-looking histograms? I've just been benchmarking the Malaysian 3G net and I want to show a separate graph per server host, showing by % buckets of "<10KB/s", "<20KB/s", etc. 04:30:06 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:17 lukego: I have some old google-charts hack if you're interested 04:30:30 beach: I'm jealous in advance of your likely healthy skin colour. I'm the most pale I've been in years :) 04:30:36 drewc: I forgot to ask, is ROFL pretty much an ORM? 04:31:02 adeht: I'm very intersted if it's easy to get started with. I'll show the graphs off in a meeting in about 2h 04:31:13 -!- madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:03 lukego: http://gist.github.com/279785 04:32:09 felideon: yes it is. A simple one, iirc 04:32:16 felideon: yes, a simple and minimal one 04:33:17 adeht: could you run off an example snippet to produce a histogram? 04:33:21 stassats`: C-y sounds cool! 04:34:46 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:02 drewc: any luck you'll finish the LoL manual soon? :) 04:35:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:35 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has joined #lisp 04:36:18 felideon: i wouldn't bet on it unless someone gave me great odds. 04:36:19 drewc: i should be more cool once i'll figure how to insert presentations 04:37:27 stassats`: why do i think i can use that to implement continuations... can i copy the whole stack to the repl? :D 04:37:40 me gives drewc great odds. 04:37:47 *felideon* gives drewc great odds. 04:37:48 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:25 drewc: you can, but not frames are useful 04:38:31 like local functions 04:38:45 stassats`: yeah, figured as much :( 04:39:21 lukego: very simple: (chart '(3 1 9 5) :bar-chart/vertical '(300 300) :chart-title "Hello") .. good to look at the other chart parameters 04:39:30 That's what Avi did for seaside... in smalltalk the stack is an object too... so he just makes a shallow copy... cheater. 04:39:56 but you can restart frames 04:41:17 *stassats`* having said that, goes figuring out actually how 04:42:17 QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #lisp 04:42:36 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:42:55 ah, ok, higher debugging settings needed, and then "r" on the frame 04:42:59 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@202.137.157.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:43:23 adeht: thanks! 04:43:38 lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-229-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:52 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@211.151.251.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:46:59 Is there something simpler than format that can be used to send a runtime string to a stream? 04:47:06 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:47:07 Ralith: write-string? 04:47:25 ah, mistook that for write-to-string 04:47:26 princ, prin1, print, write-line? 04:47:27 thanks 04:50:03 lukego: ah, you're justifying that as a work trip by doing some benchmarking? :-) 04:50:11 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:02 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:51:22 jsnell: yes :-) I actually have a meeting with one of the phone companies this afternoon. the tropical island hammock that I will relocate to in a few days to hack trace-analysis code played only a *very* small part in my travel decision.. :) 04:53:36 first observation is that accessing my shiny new Malaysian server gets about 2x transfer speed compared with both my US server and Akamai's edge cache (which actually seems to be fairly remote). will investigate whether this is just congestion in the international link or (more fun) some transport-layer protocol issue 04:55:03 jsnell: are you in NY already btw? 04:55:20 you could grab a beer with Kenny Tilton 04:55:22 :) 04:55:27 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 04:55:56 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:55:57 *p_l* is not sure if it's such a good thing... 04:57:04 a while back someone mentioned that a programmer costs 100/hr with salary and expenses and such 04:57:18 i kind of doubt that, that would mean a programmer costs 300k a year 04:57:36 Doesn't malaysia have a lovely new backbone? 04:57:53 lukego: nah, I've got a flight in 6 hours and I haven't packed or slept yet. IIRC lispnyc was meeting just before and after I'm there 04:57:57 35/hr is something like 65k/yar so maybe max 50 or 60 an hour for the few programmers making 120k or so but thats quite rare out there 04:57:58 holycow: Depends on where you are, I expect. 04:58:15 yeah maybe also particular specialization 04:58:34 holycow: are you talking employment? 04:58:40 Cost of living, taxation, etc will all factor into these things. 04:58:46 employment yeah 04:59:12 -!- lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-238-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:22 holycow: do you think salary is the only, or the smallest, expense associated with employing someone? 04:59:43 If you live in some horrible 3rd world hell-hole then medical insurance can be expensive. 04:59:58 sounds like the US 05:00:04 i employ people. it is unless you leave in bizarro land. 05:00:28 are you guys saying that employers costs for employing people in the use nearly doubles their wages? 05:00:33 u.s. i mean 05:00:34 Phoodus [i=foo@174-17-22-62.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:34 sykopomp: As horrible 3rd world hell-holes go it is a comfortable one, I guess. 05:01:18 usually I'd say that I'd need a budget per employee equaling somewhere near 2x wages 05:02:11 i'm a micro business so maybe i really don't know what i'm talking about. sounds like the big companies have tons of overhead i'm not taking into account 05:02:11 Is there a safe way to keywordify a symbol and/or vis versa? 05:02:25 holycow: you think? :) 05:02:29 ralith: Intern its symbol-name? :) 05:02:34 holycow: depends on country, various plans etc. 05:02:40 drewc: not arguing :) just curious 05:02:42 Zhivago: that works. 05:02:51 holycow: like, say, office buildings, health insurance, liability... 05:02:51 i can maybe see it if you gotta build a googleplex for all thepeople 05:03:04 not to mention a dedicated human resources department... 05:03:12 ah right 05:03:31 holycow: I'm pretty sure my salary while working at a telco cost the company at least 150% 05:03:31 i rent cheap, pay average and health insurance in canada is dirt cheap 05:03:34 I thought economies of scale were supposed to improve things ... 05:04:13 holycow: well, at least if you consider the salary after taxes (which are paid... weirdly) 05:04:30 Zhivago: i wonder what the math on scaling up a company looks like, that is what struck me odd as to the original costing. it sounds right given some of the input 05:05:46 cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:06:50 -!- Royal_Dansk is now known as PuffTheMagic 05:06:51 holycow: i only use contractors _and_ i pay them cheap! 05:07:08 :D 05:07:21 heh 05:07:43 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as Royal_Dansk 05:08:33 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:09:14 -!- nicdev [n=user@dorm-212.subnet-201.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 05:09:37 hm 05:10:56 I'm doing (define-condition some-condition (parent) () (:default-initargs :foo :bar)) where :foo is an initarg defined for a slot of parent. On trying to access that slot on a fresh instance of some-condition, I'm getting "unbound condition slot" 05:11:00 what might I be doing wrong? 05:12:19 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:31 -!- Eni [n=endy@064-090-158-071.plateautel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:13:53 nicdev [n=nicdev@dorm-212.subnet-201.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 05:14:58 Ralith: nothing I can see 05:15:15 -!- nicdev [n=nicdev@dorm-212.subnet-201.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 05:15:36 nicdev [n=user@dorm-212.subnet-201.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 05:15:50 :/ 05:16:09 do you have a test case? 05:17:10 define-condition is like a global exception handler? 05:17:28 adeht: yeah, should be easy to extract, gimme a sec 05:17:29 RaceCondition: no, it's like defclass for conditions 05:17:36 hello, when there is multiple assingment to the same keyword in 05:17:36 function arguments, what are the pros and cons of choosing the 05:17:36 leftmost of the rightmost as the assingment that counts? 05:17:58 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:18:04 adeht: oh, a like a subclass of Exception, so to speak 05:18:21 RaceCondition: bearing in mind that conditions have only so much in common with exceptions. 05:18:32 Ralith: of course 05:18:47 perhaps foremost, not necessarily indicating an exceptional condition :P 05:18:53 nicdev: for leftmost, you can override args without extra consing when using apply 05:18:59 I'm just validating how I undestand stuff :) 05:19:33 lpolzer__: paktahn dies when you don't have 'net 05:19:33 Ralith: you mean as when exceptions are used for control flow? (bearing in mind that conditions are immensely more powerful :P) 05:19:49 RaceCondition: that's not a correct use of exceptions. 05:20:13 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has joined #lisp 05:20:27 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:34 Ralith: depends, I guess 05:20:38 -!- Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-119.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 05:21:42 RaceCondition: exceptions are by definition for indicating exceptional conditions. 05:21:51 as I understand it, anyway 05:22:22 Ralith: interesting that at least one system implemented an OS-wide *condition* facility (VMS) 05:22:30 Ralith: is, for example, trying to read a non-existent file an exceptional condition if it happens all the time? :P 05:22:33 which, iirc, is used even for I/O 05:22:58 RaceCondition: a not-exceptional condition would be "ASYNC_IO_FINISHED" of sorts ;-) 05:23:21 adeht: found my issue; forgot to make the initarg a keyword. 05:23:24 p_l: so can't exceptions and exc. handlers be considered simply as events and event handlers depending on context? 05:24:03 RaceCondition: Most languages that support "exceptions" don't work well with that approach, because their exception facilities were designed for, well, exceptions as in errors 05:24:05 -!- cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:33 Most languages support exceptions as a glorified catch/throw mechanism. 05:24:46 p_l: ah, well, I guess it depends on what you define as "error" 05:25:22 condition system on the other hand, is much more generalized with proper restart mechanism instead of single predefined restart 05:26:04 http://l1sp.org/search?q= 05:26:08 damn, didn't work 05:26:21 btw, how would you translate smth like this to Lisp: try: Article.find(...) except Article.DoesNotExist: return HttpNotFound()? just so that I know 05:26:35 clhs handler-case 05:26:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_hand_1.htm 05:26:43 using conditions? using some tail-optimized lambdas? 05:26:46 RaceCondition: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html 05:27:29 adeht: was that meant to me? 05:27:33 yes 05:27:52 thanks 05:27:58 Would it be bad to perform (intern (symbol-name (func-returning-from-known-keyword-set))) at runtime? 05:28:47 in this case, I have a C enum and a corresponding bunch of conditions defined. 05:29:13 and I want to concisely signal the correct error corresponding to an enum value from a foreign function 05:29:27 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 05:30:15 adeht: so is handler-case used, amongst other situations, for my Article.DoesNotExist example? 05:30:16 you can use find-symbol, and I'd think you want to supply the right package 05:31:02 sounds better, thanks 05:31:30 RaceCondition: handler-case is analogous to try-catch 05:31:46 adeht: OK, I see 05:32:15 adeht: that's what I meant, yeah, I just forgot that what most languages call a "catch" python calls "except" :) 05:34:12 handler-bind, OTOH, is where the real fun lies. 05:36:38 Ralith: why do you use keywords for the enum in the first place? 05:38:00 adeht: huh? 05:38:10 rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@76-220-42-147.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:38 can't the enum symbols be the actual condition names? 05:38:41 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:39:06 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:37 adeht: nope; cffi requires they be keywords 05:39:58 or assumes they're selfevaluating, at least, I think 05:40:35 hmm, any good reason for that? 05:40:41 *Ralith* shrug 05:40:57 -!- cools` [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:03 sounds like a bug. Even if that's true, you could always make the symbols self-evaluating or name your conditions with keywords 05:42:28 pkhuong: looks like the enum code explicitly checks for keywords 05:42:31 I'm happy with this solution 05:42:47 -!- Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.0.17/2009122116]"] 05:43:12 Ralith: a hash table to map enum keywords to condition names would be cleaner. 05:44:17 looking at http://gnuplot.sourceforge.net/demo_4.3/histograms.html. does anyone know the expected input file format for the "Immigration from northern europe" file? 05:47:07 (oh, I see now) 05:47:16 -!- rme [rme@clozure-51821EF0.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:47:16 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:47:43 pkhuong: seems redundant, since there should exist a condition named exactly for every enum keyword. 05:48:13 ds_ [n=ds@adsl-75-17-57-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:59 Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-221-210.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:49:14 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:49:37 weird, I just pasted something to #lisp, but it doesn't appear 05:50:10 oh, I didn't enter a title... 05:50:58 RaceCondition pasted "weird note" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/93549 05:51:09 can someone explain me the note I'm getting from the compiler? 05:51:14 the code is from PCL 05:52:21 try changing the variable name 05:52:40 adeht: which one? 'number'? 05:52:44 mischievious [n=mischief@unaffiliated/mischief] has joined #lisp 05:52:49 it has deleted something unneeded in the MOD function 05:53:08 RaceCondition: or getting a newer version of sbcl? don't seem to get any note here 05:53:17 can anyone tell me where i can get a working Lisp In A Box for windows 05:53:20 i get it in SBCL-1.0.33 05:53:37 but this note is harmless, if annoying 05:53:41 (defun primep (number) 05:53:42 (when (> number 1) 05:53:42 (loop 05:53:42 for fac from 2 to (isqrt number) 05:53:45 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:47 never (zerop (mod number fac))))) 05:53:47 c 05:53:50 oops 05:53:56 wrong buffer :) 05:54:10 RaceCondition: you've told it the number is bigger than one and the face is 2 or more 05:54:27 fac 05:54:37 drewc: ok, but what does that imply? 05:54:39 adeht: and you need to compile it 05:54:49 mischievious: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/#download 05:54:50 ? 05:55:35 stassats: ok.. so the workaround is to change the variable's name 05:56:20 mischievious: do they work? 05:56:31 RaceCondition: actually, nm... it's not what i thought is it. 05:56:41 adeht: i don't see how that will help, it just says that some legs in the IF inside MOD are unreachable 05:57:10 iirc it's some quirk in the optimizer 05:57:30 RaceCondition: no no, it is... it's just telling you that it was able to delete some code in MOD because of what you've told it 05:57:46 it has (if (minusp divisor) (plusp number) (minusp number)) inside, and since MOD is inlined it can prove that divisor will be positive ("from 2 to ...") 05:58:40 stassats`: does that mean primep always returns nil? 05:58:58 because of mod number fac is always > 0, loop never returns T 05:59:32 actually, changing variable name helps, weird indeed 06:00:15 stassats`: which variable? number or fac? I changed number to number2 and I get the same 06:00:28 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-19-55.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:00:40 number 06:00:58 yes, you're right 06:01:13 OK, so it's just a quirk in in 1.0.33... 06:01:58 no, it's the same in 1.0.23 06:02:10 -!- pinterface [n=pinterfa@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 06:03:33 gibranian, yes, that did it :) 06:04:08 drewc: any reason why window components are defined in /ucw/src/ucw-standard/standard-components.lisp as well as in /ucw/src/components? 06:04:36 /windows.lisp 06:05:27 felideon: one of them is probably cruft. 06:05:49 felideon: likely the one in src/components 06:05:59 *drewc* looks 06:06:12 right, I figured as much. I think when I M-. it takes me to standard-components.lisp 06:08:16 felideon: yeah, the src/components directory isn't used at all any more, i think most if not all of the components have been ported. 06:08:52 drewc: ok cool, thanks. 06:09:26 -!- ds_ [n=ds@adsl-75-17-57-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:13:59 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:17 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-51-118.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:11 -!- adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-241.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:19:30 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 06:19:34 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:21:23 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 06:23:44 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-87-160.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:26 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:25:06 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:26:03 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:26:29 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 06:28:34 -!- nicdev [n=user@dorm-212.subnet-201.amherst.edu] has left #lisp 06:29:43 xach: any reason git://git.xach.com/zpb-exif.git doesn't contain version 1.2.1? 06:31:20 is there a built-in function somewhere for loading bytes to/from bit arrays? 06:31:36 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:17 IIRC, I've used LDB to pull bytes from bignums; don't recall trying with bit-vectors. 06:34:39 Phoodus: why do you need them? 06:34:52 -!- gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:52 shoving an array of bytes into a single long bitarray 06:35:03 and extracting them back out after I'm done fiddling with bits 06:35:18 doing some encoding work 06:36:02 I can load a number into a bitarray with 8 calls to logbitp 06:36:13 and build up a byte with 8 bit accessors 06:36:38 seems like it's a common thing, though I'm not seeing anything in CLHS for treating a bitarray as a src/dest of multi-bit numbers 06:37:35 you already can treat a number as a bit-array 06:38:20 hmm, so I should be able use a huge bignum instead of of a bit-array? 06:38:42 I'm dealing with 8k buffers, so 65536 bits wide right now 06:38:58 or a specialized array of bytes 06:39:17 or words, or whatever 06:39:30 most of the work is dereferencing individual bits from a 0-65535 offset 06:39:36 so bitarray seemed to be the logical choice 06:39:54 well, that's what bitarray does under the hood anyway 06:40:12 as opposed to doing "pointer magic" every get/set 06:40:22 in order to map it to an array of bytes/words/etc 06:40:48 lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 06:41:06 oh well, it's not much code to do 8-bit loops per number 06:41:06 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@113.250.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 06:41:38 (dotimes (x 8) 06:41:38 (setf (bit target-bitmask offset) (logbitp x byte)) 06:41:38 (incf offset)) 06:41:42 but consing and filling a bit-vector might be costly 06:42:09 I basically load it from bytes once, do a ton of bit-level work, then convert it back into bytes 06:45:38 Phoodus: might want to switch to spaces. 06:49:40 meh, I let emacs do its thing 06:50:14 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@dynamic-78-8-149-205.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:50:40 well, you need to say to emacs to use spaces 06:51:25 (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) and M-x untabify as a remedy 06:52:17 dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-66-108-150-228.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:39 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has left #lisp 06:53:41 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:54:57 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:56:41 i wonder what teh most efficien impl of prolog in lisp is 06:57:19 Phoodus: i still hant gotten the microPrologII to run the benchmark 07:00:43 -!- Adlai` [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["work"] 07:00:50 though path(p(1,1), p(6,6), [p(1,1)], Path). 07:00:54 is very fast 07:01:01 BeZerk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 07:01:09 lpolzer_ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-245-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:19 -!- jordyd [n=jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:29 -!- nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 07:09:04 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@cpe-66-108-150-228.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:09:19 -!- rich_holygoat [n=rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [] 07:09:48 dmiles: how short is the path? 07:10:13 remember, mine took 0msec to find the intended solution, though because mine took a separate search ordering, hit it almost immediately 07:10:31 the intended solution snakes over every single cell on the map before finally finding the solution 07:10:40 and that's the first result it hits 07:12:38 6,6 = 33 07:12:49 yeah our benchmark is meant to be inefficient on purpose 07:14:06 Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:16:57 -!- lpolzer__ [n=lpolzer@dslb-088-073-229-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:46 -!- dys` is now known as dys 07:27:28 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:27:43 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:28:06 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:28:32 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has joined #lisp 07:29:10 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:29:41 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:40 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:32:30 schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:32:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:33:42 -!- ud [i=ud@ud.net.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:33 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has left #lisp 07:34:43 -!- felideon [n=felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:35:02 man, SBCL's type checker really doesn't like me using (bit my-bitmask offset): 07:35:05 Asserted type BIT conflicts with derived type (VALUES (MEMBER T NIL) &OPTIONAL). 07:35:24 I've tried a bunch of declarations and can't get it right 07:35:27 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:35:34 googling hit this old paste http://paste.lisp.org/display/84883 07:35:47 you're using logbitp? 07:35:50 which seems to be pretty similar 07:35:50 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:11 it's apparently nailing me after logbitp 07:36:24 after I extract the bit to b, I (setf (bit ...) b) it 07:36:28 and that's where the error hits 07:36:40 logbitp returns a boolean, but you need a (integer 0 1) 07:36:58 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:06 ohhh, it returns t/nil 07:37:22 thanks, I thought that it couldn't get the proper array type of my bit-array 07:37:28 so, you need to use LDB 07:38:54 ok, thanks muchly 07:38:58 this seems to work 07:39:27 *Phoodus* has been playing around with sbcl optimization & decompilation while writing the algo for the first time, which yeah is generally bad :) 07:39:58 but it's very bit-boolean oriented, so I like seeing that fall immediately on register ops :) 07:41:09 *Group* 07:41:13 whoops 07:42:54 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:44:14 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:09 mrSpec [n=Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:47:24 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:47:40 good morning 07:48:19 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["work"] 07:50:26 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:27 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=christop@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [] 07:57:53 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:18 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:01:23 -!- kloeri_ [i=kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:02:44 rares1 [n=rares@174-26-90-76.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:48 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:04:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:04:40 hello mvilleneuve 08:06:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:06:49 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-191-32.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:33 ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:10:46 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:11:28 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-92-195-41-30.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:53 hello lispers 08:19:27 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:28 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:19:42 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:42 -!- BeZerk [n=MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:43 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 08:19:56 hello kiuma 08:21:38 splittist [i=5c6a5031@gateway/web/freenode/x-rykgbetojobuwgxv] has joined #lisp 08:21:40 morning 08:23:25 has #dojo something planned for Firefox Jetpack ? 08:23:36 s/#dojo/dojotoolkit/ 08:23:58 hello splittist 08:24:06 hi beach 08:24:26 lol, wrong channel :) 08:24:41 I'm doing to many things :) 08:26:21 cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 08:27:26 -!- cataska [n=cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:45 Ralith, can you file a bug report that also shows the output when paktahn doesn't have net? 08:28:00 'kay 08:28:06 looks like something pretty trivial though 08:28:26 also, the bit where it continually updates the local cache still seems to be happening. 08:32:54 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:35 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:33 is there someone that use iolib ? 08:43:17 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:43:22 Ginei_Mo1ioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.157.240] has joined #lisp 08:45:21 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 08:47:04 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:34 many 08:47:56 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 08:48:55 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:24 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:55 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:28 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:54:36 Ralith, I haven't received mention of these bogus local cache updates from anyone else and couldn't reproduce it 08:54:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:54:53 Ralith, my guess is that you're either seeing fully expected behavior or that something's funky with your system 08:55:02 hello 08:55:22 hello fe[nl]ix 08:55:34 hi beach 08:56:04 i love that answer 08:56:19 its basically like saying: it looks like you are having a problem, except if you aren't 08:56:20 hehehe 08:56:22 :) 08:56:36 -!- egn [n=egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:58:01 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:58:19 beach: I was thinking about organizing a Lisp dinner some time soon, would you be interested? 08:58:31 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 08:59:00 lpolzer_: well, under what circumstances should the local cache be updated? 08:59:51 it's simple, the cache files' last modified time is compared to the last modified time of /var/lib/pacman/local 09:00:13 under what circumstances is that changed? 09:01:26 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:11 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:29 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:03:41 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:58 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:04:10 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:17 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:04:22 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:04:26 -!- xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:34 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:41 xenosoz2 [n=xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 09:04:41 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:02 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:12 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:06:46 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:06:58 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:39 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:08:04 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:04 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Dead socket] 09:08:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:12:40 Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:13:53 -!- dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:14:05 dys [n=andreas@krlh-5f72f25e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:50 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:02 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:21:24 blandest [n=blandest@79.112.118.97] has joined #lisp 09:21:36 -!- blandest [n=blandest@79.112.118.97] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:50 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has joined #lisp 09:22:05 -!- sadiquea is now known as sdqali 09:22:19 kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@213162066163.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 09:22:37 swilde [n=wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 09:22:45 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:23:45 litherp2_ [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:47 -!- litherp2_ [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:03 mvilleneuve: where? 09:25:12 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:29:03 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 09:30:03 billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:56 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757e03.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:04 Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12970.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:36 -!- pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:33:01 pem [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has joined #lisp 09:33:29 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:34:08 p_l: Bordeaux 09:34:33 are there any reasons why it's a good idea for symbol plists to be first-class lists? 09:35:12 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:35:16 are there any reasons for it to be otherwise? 09:35:24 as opposed to only offering GET and (SETF GET), but not letting you actually modify the list itself 09:36:16 well, if you just had get and (setf get), then the implementation could choose to use something other than a plist if it gets large. Dunno. 09:36:45 Adlai: then you should not be using the symbol plist maybe? 09:37:09 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:37:18 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:38:22 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 09:38:36 jdz, I'm not using it for anything, it just seems like a bad design decision to allow direct access to them 09:38:47 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:38:55 Adlai: what do you mean by direct access? 09:38:58 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:39:06 Adlai: GET is an _interface_ 09:39:11 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 09:39:19 litherp2_ [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:16 Adlai: if it was direct access you'd be using GETF with SYMBOL-PLIST 09:40:49 or at least that's how i see it 09:41:18 jdz, you can do stuff like (setf (symbol-plist any-symbol) (reverse (symbol-plist any-symbol))) 09:42:14 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 09:42:16 -!- litherp2 [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:25 so? 09:42:49 it undermines the interface of get / (setf get) 09:42:54 and maybe somebody will correct me, but there is nothing preventing implementation to store the plist any way it wants 09:43:05 what do you mean? 09:43:21 i mean that implementation might as well use hashtable 09:43:32 I don't think so 09:43:43 if symbol-plist / (setf symbol-plist) were taken away, then maybe it could. 09:43:50 why? 09:44:13 Adlai: who said that two calls to SYMBOL-PLIST with the same symbol must return the same list? 09:45:03 well, maybe it is specified somewhere, and i hope somebody will correct me if i'm wrong on this 09:45:29 the wording "file:///Users/jdz/Documents/Specifications/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_a.htm#access the file:///Users/jdz/Documents/Specifications/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#property_list of symbol." might imply that 09:45:34 oh damn 09:45:41 i mean the "accesses" part 09:47:25 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:48:08 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:34 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:49:17 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:30 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:49:55 I don't think the spec explicitly prohibits that sort of behavior, but the presence of the accessor SYMBOL-PLIST suggests, to me, that it's a first-class list, and the list that you put in is the list that you get out (unless somebody else has fiddled with it in the meantime) 09:50:13 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:26 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:51:09 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:23 Adlai: i don't know why you would want to depend on the same list being there in the presence of (setf symbol-plist) 09:52:19 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:52:42 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:58 I wouldn't. this seems like bad design, and I'm just wondering out loud whether there are any reasons for it other than backwards-compatibility. 09:53:02 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:15 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:53:24 I guess symbol plists do alleviate the need for weak references 09:53:52 it depends if you are of the Ron Garret school of abstraction 09:53:52 (you can use them instead of a key-weak eq hashtable whose keys are all symbols) 09:53:56 Ralith, the mtime is changed when the directory's contents are modified 09:53:58 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:11 if your first response to anything is to use a list-based data structure, then a symbol-plist is pretty convenient 09:54:13 Ralith, usually this is done by removing or adding local packages 09:54:59 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:55:10 Krystof, what confuses me is that if you use a symbol-plist as a list, rather than as a key-value mapping that can only be accessed through get, (setf get), and remprop, you're abusing it. 09:55:42 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:57 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:56:05 *Adlai* shrugs 09:56:25 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:31 meanwhile I broke my remote lisp by reversing the symbol-plists of all the symbols in the swank-backend package :D 09:56:40 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:01 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:57:31 mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has joined #lisp 09:57:43 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:29 Adlai: how about passing it to APPLY? 09:58:49 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:59:15 ah. ok, that's one reason. 10:00:28 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:01:11 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:23 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:02:06 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:15 I suspect symbol plists are such a great hack with such a long pedigree it just wouldn't be CL without it (cf. CAR, CDR, ...) 10:02:44 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:03:33 -!- BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:04:37 lpolzer_: well, I don't have and have never had any local packages. 10:04:51 unless you mean installing/uninstalling normal packages 10:06:34 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:07:34 BunzOfSteel [n=bunz@pool-173-56-111-193.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:51 Ralith: yes, those are local packages 10:07:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:14 all packages currently installed are termed local packages 10:10:54 oh, okay 10:10:57 in that case 10:11:10 could you update the cache after performing an (un)install to save startup time? 10:12:02 -!- plutonas` [n=plutonas@port-92-195-18-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:25 cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has joined #lisp 10:12:26 Ralith, seems like a good idea, let's do that 10:14:08 moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-101-030-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:14:57 Tordek_ [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/session] has joined #lisp 10:15:43 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.50] has joined #lisp 10:16:12 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-235-222.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:13 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-52-9.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:16:25 -!- morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757e03.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:30 trittweiler [n=tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 10:16:46 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 10:19:14 freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:22:44 lpolzer_: yay ^^ 10:22:48 -!- Tordek [i=tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-bvcexesdvsfjsvru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:51 -!- madsy [n=madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:25:28 Kenjin [n=josesant@242-243.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #lisp 10:28:03 saba_ [n=saba@94.136.88.17] has joined #lisp 10:29:58 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #lisp 10:33:54 saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:39 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:35:47 madsy [n=madsy@ti0207a340-1190.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 10:36:25 -!- QinGW2 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:56 -!- franki^ [n=franki@unaffiliated/franki] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:38:17 franki^ [n=franki@unaffiliated/franki] has joined #lisp 10:41:10 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 10:41:23 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:50 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 10:47:22 Can anyone explain to me why MUTEX-OWNER is implemented as (sb!ext:compare-and-swap (mutex-%owner mutex) nil nil) ? 10:48:04 jdz: that's not a use of logical pathnames! 10:48:06 Does a CAS force a memory request through caches? 10:48:18 Xach: how so? 10:48:28 Xach: you want me to use logical host? 10:48:35 -!- litherp2_ [n=piratman@ool-182ff1c9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:48:44 jdz: a logical pathname looks approximately like like #p"FOO:BAR;BAZ;QUUX.TXT" 10:49:06 jdz: your example uses structured pathnames (not just namestrings), but logical pathnames are something different... 10:49:45 clhs logical-pathname 10:49:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_logica.htm 10:50:51 according to the class LOGICAL-PATHNAME description, my pathnames are logical. as in #p"foo;**;*.TXT" 10:51:19 and i rememember there being some case issues... 10:52:12 I have a friend who is a rather new programmer (in fact has done no programming before). I was wondering if there were any books to recommend (free online preferably) other than PCL that might be good for a new programmer 10:52:46 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:41 jdz: according to the class PATHNAME description, your pathnames are pathnames :) 10:53:52 jdz: and also, i would wager, according to class-of 10:54:54 Xach: ok, you win. i have not had a need for logical pathnames then. except for looking up implementation stuff, but that is set up for me automatically by the implementation and slime... 10:56:12 jdz: your example is really useful though! 10:56:31 jdz: my impression is that many people don't distinguish logical pathnames from pathnames at all 10:56:44 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:56:47 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:56:48 -!- Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:57:18 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:26 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:31 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:57:45 attila_lendvai, but if I have a web resource that to render need, say some minute (for example a big pdf report) and then the result is steamed to the client, is the single thread model possible without blocking other requests ? 10:57:48 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:57:59 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:05 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:05 attila_lendvai, single thr. with iolib 10:58:12 minion: tell Wraithan about gentle 10:58:13 Wraithan: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 10:58:21 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:58:28 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:36 kiuma, it is using connection multiplexing, but currently you have to do the inversion of control by hand 10:59:47 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:00:00 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:00:06 Hi. Can someone tell me if there is an Allegro # where I can ask for allegro threads and modal dialogs? 11:00:16 kiuma, i have a proof of concept code that uses delimited continuations to do the inversion and multiplexing automagically 11:00:27 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:34 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:40 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:00:41 claudia20100115: they have a mailing list for AllegroCL 11:00:44 ...but proof of concept will not help you much doing real work... 11:00:48 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:00:53 claudia20100115: i don't think there is a specific channel for it. 11:01:12 jdz: thanks 11:01:19 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:01:22 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:25 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:01:27 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:02:01 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:07 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:12 attila_lendvai, yep, it seems that single thread doesn't provide a 'natural' way of doing web operations 11:02:32 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:02:35 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:02:47 maybe easy for PC, but not immediate for developer 11:03:03 beach: Thanks 11:03:10 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:12 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:14 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:03:26 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:03:34 What is a DESCRIPTOR-REG, where is it defined? 11:03:38 -!- Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:03:48 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:51 -!- skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:04:18 Dra`vi [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:04:26 skeptomai|awa- [n=nnnnnnnn@c-71-227-156-96.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:26 trittweiler: no sbcl authoriative seems to be around ( other than you :) so I guess it is safe to step up. But take my guesses with alot of salt: look in src/compiler/arch/vm.lisp for which registers are descriptor/non-descriptor etc.. I GUESS descriptor-reg is a register whos value is checked by gc. 11:13:27 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 11:14:03 oh I'm not authoritative by any means, just a little minion :-) 11:14:21 trittweiler: there was something with atomicity that required the usage of non-descriptor reg. 11:14:46 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:14:56 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 11:15:06 thanks for the pointer to vm.lisp; grepping for descriptor-reg was rather futile :-) 11:15:30 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:15:40 leo2007 [n=leo@cpc2-cmbg15-2-0-cust694.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:02 It's the first time I'm seriously looking at a vop definition, it's %CAS 11:16:19 actually %CAS-INSTANCE-REF 11:17:01 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:50 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:44 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 11:20:49 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:24 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:00 dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:29:36 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 11:31:43 ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:32:27 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 11:33:26 tfb, that nick-renaming on status change is kind of annoying. Could you switch it off please? 11:39:05 -!- djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:39:36 djinni` [n=djinni`@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:32 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 11:43:01 xan-afk [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:43:26 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 11:46:46 -!- konr [n=user@189.96.56.96] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:47 anyone using sbcl on linux x86-64? 11:52:05 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:08 If I type 'sb-kernel::double-float-bits into the SLIME repl, the sbcl process becomes unresponsive 11:52:09 *Adlai* is 11:52:15 trittweiler: I suspect most people are 11:52:15 it should signal a package-lock violation 11:52:49 If I go into *inferior-lisp* evaluating numbers seem to work, but a function call not; guess due to compiler lock 11:52:59 trittweiler, same here 11:53:27 trittweiler: I get a package lock violation 11:53:35 what sbcl version, beach? 11:53:57 trittweiler: 1.0.29 11:54:01 Adlai, can you bisect? 11:54:15 erm, that was supposed to go to attila_lendvai, but I don't mind who does 11:54:15 trittweiler: SLIME 2009-09-28 11:54:41 trittweiler, "1.0.33.30" 11:56:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:10 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:13 can't reproduce it on sbcl-without-slime 11:56:34 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 11:57:32 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:59:08 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:00:05 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 12:00:47 tfb_ [n=tfb@212.183.140.3] has joined #lisp 12:01:05 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.50] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:01:21 Bah I've got different things to do 12:01:50 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 12:05:56 -!- Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-191-32.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:07:51 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:41 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wspidwtuyjinqhue] has left #lisp 12:14:40 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:15:02 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:16:43 HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:32 TheHitman47 [n=hitman@c-24-21-203-202.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:52 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #lisp 12:19:40 jtza8 [n=jtza8@wbs-196-2-122-162.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:20:07 <_deepfire> trittweiler, I remember you wanting a optional-and-key-in-the-same-lamba-list condition for finer-grain muffling purposes? 12:20:38 <_deepfire> trittweiler, what name would you propose? I'm testing a patch with that condition named as above.. 12:21:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:55 -!- TheHitman47 [n=hitman@c-24-21-203-202.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:22:05 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-26-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:22:17 TheHitman47 [n=hitman@c-24-21-203-202.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:16 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 nicklevine [n=chatzill@gannet.ravenbrook.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:31 -!- HET2 [n=diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:29:01 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:29:09 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 12:31:48 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 12:32:47 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:37 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:28 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 12:42:46 Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has joined #lisp 12:43:50 <_deepfire> Shortened it to optional-and-key-within-lambda-list 12:44:22 -!- kwinz3_ [n=kwinz@213162066163.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:45:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:46:26 -!- pem is now known as pemryan 12:46:34 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:50 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:16 -!- pemryan [n=pem@159.226.35.246] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:53:20 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:28 -!- fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:02 fractalis [n=user@cpe-98-27-191-210.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:20 _deepfire: 'in' would be just as good as 'within'. (And you could say &optional-and-&key- if it's lisp-side). 12:55:47 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:56:14 -!- drwho is now known as [TL]DrWho 12:56:15 -!- [TL]DrWho is now known as [x39]DrWho 12:58:00 nurv101 [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 13:01:55 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:02:22 -!- Joreji [n=thomas@134.61.80.139] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:53 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:07 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-183-105.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 13:07:40 <_deepfire> splittist, thanks! 13:10:15 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:10:43 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #lisp 13:11:21 todos [n=ttodos@195.160.234.10] has joined #lisp 13:14:17 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 13:15:11 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-87-160.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:49 Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-24-82-64-152-235.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:35 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 13:20:09 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:37 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.217.33] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-183-105.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:53 myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-183-105.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 13:24:02 -!- nurv101 [n=nurv101@fw.l2f.inesc-id.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:24:25 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@157-157-183-105.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:28 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:03 -!- TheHitman47 [n=hitman@c-24-21-203-202.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:26:10 Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.67.126] has joined #lisp 13:26:24 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:27:41 -!- sdqali [n=sadiquea@119.82.102.202] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:31:05 -!- legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-53-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:04 legumbre [n=leo@r190-135-46-135.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:34:43 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:06 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 HG` [n=HG@xdslhe013.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:49 -!- peterwang [n=user@122.227.189.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:43 peterwang [n=user@122.227.189.156] has joined #lisp 13:42:21 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-201-176.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:37 cvandusen [n=user@12.185.80.194] has joined #lisp 13:43:31 prxq [n=mommer@f051033158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:43:48 hi 13:44:56 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslhe013.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:07 longkid [n=lisp@58.186.229.101] has joined #lisp 13:45:18 hello 13:46:14 I have a problem with sqrt macro 13:46:48 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@a88-113-6-160.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:19 I use (sqrt 9) = 3.0, so how can I make (sqrt 9) = 3 (not 3.0)? 13:47:29 its a function not a macro 13:47:40 i'm sorry 13:47:45 no probs 13:47:58 longkid: isqrt 13:48:02 clhs isqrt 13:48:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sqrt_.htm 13:49:09 stassats`: thanks a lot 13:51:47 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:52:28 Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo8.44.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:06 longkid: bit isqrt doesn't actually give you the square root: (isqrt 8) -> 2 13:53:08 for instance 13:53:23 so beware of that 13:54:18 well, it's obvious that you can't have integer square root of non-perfect squares 13:54:49 Yes, but that relies on you knowing the number is a perfect square 13:55:01 not really 13:55:17 Also I suspect it is implementation-dependent whether (sqrt 9) is an integer or a float 13:55:23 true 13:55:53 jdz: it is if what you want is the square root 13:56:08 (or the best float approx to it) 13:56:20 s/float/float or rational/ 13:56:25 -!- kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:27 -!- l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has quit [Client Quit] 13:56:36 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:57:06 l_a_m [n=nlamirau@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 13:57:29 what is what? 13:57:56 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:58:10 -!- clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:58:19 I know. I only use (isqrt n) with n is a square of integer 13:58:39 Sorry, what I mean is: if you want a function which will give you the best approximation to the actual root, then ISQRT is not that function 13:59:18 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp118-210-235-222.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:49 tfb: but original poster did not specify what he wants in enough detail :) 13:59:59 true 14:00:18 that doesn't stop us from theorizing 14:00:36 :-) 14:01:32 tfb: what i wanted to say is that stassats's claim is true without knowing the nature of the number in question 14:01:45 and yes, that's just theorizing ;) 14:01:48 So, is there a very fast way of knowing if a number is a perfect square? 14:02:22 because CCL seems to get exact answers for any perfect square (based on a sample of almost none) 14:02:39 i remember some shortcuts for testing some forms of numbers quickly 14:03:53 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/295579/fastest-way-to-determine-if-an-integers-square-root-is-an-integer 14:04:33 Heh, CCL cheats 14:04:56 It checks if (* (isqrt x) (isqrt x)) is x (if x is an integer) 14:08:08 smackarang [n=user@91.190.137.236] has joined #lisp 14:08:38 -!- ceineke_ [n=chris@24.235.36.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_square_root 14:10:13 that might be the basis for CCL's "cheat" 14:11:00 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-157.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:11:00 -!- billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 14:12:53 jdz: they do something quite clever for isqrt, including just-knowing-the-answer for small n 14:13:27 *tfb* will now waste hours benchmarking it 14:13:31 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:13:36 tfb: table 1 in here http://www.embedded.com/98/9802fe2.htm is interesting (new to me) 14:17:21 -!- longkid [n=lisp@58.186.229.101] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:23:06 hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has joined #lisp 14:23:26 jdz: yes. But now I want one of these Friden things 14:23:49 minion: chant 14:23:49 MORE FITTING 14:24:00 it should be more friden 14:24:19 minion: chant 14:24:19 MORE FRIDEN 14:24:27 right, that's the spirit! 14:26:18 clop [n=jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:05 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:08 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:37 -!- Royal_Dansk is now known as PuffTheMagic 14:33:59 -!- Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:11 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:35:05 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 14:35:37 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:36:20 pjb [n=t@19.Red-88-30-112.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:37:11 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 14:41:11 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 tfb_ [n=tfb@212.183.140.3] has joined #lisp 14:43:01 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.3] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:43:17 Alabaman [n=badgerfa@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:20 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 14:43:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.217.33] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:44:43 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:03 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 14:45:14 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:26 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:47:40 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has quit ["leaving"] 14:47:54 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.141.32] has joined #lisp 14:49:43 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:29 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:44 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:52:49 kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 14:54:22 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:55:33 JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:04 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:02:20 -!- Bobrobyn [n=rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:22 Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has joined #lisp 15:07:58 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Boot me gently"] 15:08:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:49 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:51 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:10:35 emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:56 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:04 -!- Axius [n=oijhif@92.82.67.126] has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:21 -!- peterwang [n=user@122.227.189.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:43 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-188-157.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:47 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:57 emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:49 ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-180-125.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:16:18 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:16:30 Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:19:16 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:22:15 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 15:22:15 -!- gibsonf1 [n=user@c-76-126-33-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:15 fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:26:45 it would be nice to see what new packages are created by an asdf load operation 15:28:06 (set-difference (list-all-packages) (progn (asdf ...) (list-all-packages))) 15:28:09 -!- Eni [n=endy@75.160.50.10] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:13 (let ((packages (list-all-packages))) (apply #'asdf:operate 'asdf 15:28:22 I was in the middle of typing it stassats` :-/ 15:29:33 but as a builtin functionality 15:29:45 perhaps a VALUES 15:30:13 you could write an :around method on asdf:perform that would log the operation done and any #packages loaded 15:32:08 freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:35:23 -!- Adlai [n=adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit ["home"] 15:36:06 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:36:22 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:36:59 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:10 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:33 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:37:49 coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:53 -!- coyo [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:50 somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:42:57 rpg [n=rpg@216.195.210.138] has joined #lisp 15:44:10 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:44:48 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:46 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.96.168] has joined #lisp 15:47:44 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:47 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:35 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:50:04 OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:55:08 morphling [n=stefan@gssn-5f757e03.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:28 benbeecher [n=user@173.84.80.205] has joined #lisp 16:01:35 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:01:45 emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:49 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:02:45 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [] 16:04:33 Hey, I'm working through practical common lisp, and it has as a piece of sample code: (remove-if-not #'(lambda (x) (= 0 (mod x 2))) '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) - I'm confused why you'd use the #' synatx on the result of a lambda call. I think I understand what #' does, but why use it on a lambda? Doesn't a lambda return a function anyway? 16:05:02 Yes. It's somewhat old fashioned. 16:05:09 clhs lambda 16:05:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 16:05:15 (lambda ...) becomes (function (lambda ...)) 16:05:18 (lambda ...) expands into #'(lambda ..) 16:05:36 (function (lambda ...)) stays that way. 16:07:05 benbeecher: it's a style thing. I don't know I'd call it 'old fashioned' - it may well just be for (visual) consistency. Alternatively you could always use (function ... instead of #' for all non-lambdas (which is pjb-style consistency...) 16:07:15 lithper2 [n=chatzill@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 16:07:49 and everything in UPPER CASE 16:09:30 is there a problem between bordeaux threads (0.8.0) and sbcl (1.0.34.7) and slime/emacs (2010-01-14/23.1.1) that make it take several minutes to get a backtrace (emacs hangs in the meantime)? 16:09:48 I think ZMACS had a mode for automatically UPCASING symbols in the LISP package... 16:09:57 hmm alright - let me read up on (function ... 16:10:34 emacs-dwim: a way to reproduce? 16:11:07 -!- nicklevine [n=chatzill@gannet.ravenbrook.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]"] 16:11:42 stassats: SLIME-REPL> unbound-symbol 16:12:15 and how bordeaux threads come into the picture? 16:12:48 carlocci [n=nes@93.37.223.95] has joined #lisp 16:13:34 Didn't tcr hit a similar issue with another unbound symbol (that happened to also trigger a package violation condition)? 16:14:16 emacs-dwim: can you exactly describe your steps? 16:15:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:43 -!- grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:21 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:31 emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:05 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:17:17 -!- OmniMancer [n=OmniManc@122-57-17-208.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:17:29 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:34 benbeecher: until fairly recently LAMBDA was not defined as a macro, so you had to use (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) 16:19:47 "recently" 16:19:52 benbeecher: that's why people (used to) do that 16:19:52 like last 20 years? 16:19:58 stassats`: never mind bordeaux-threads; with no extra packages loaded, sbcl runs fine from the shell; but with slime, it hangs for soewhere between 2-7 minutes on any error. 16:20:03 post CLtL2? 16:20:41 I think it was added because it basically can't be added by user code 16:20:49 because LAMBDA is in CL 16:20:53 (package) 16:21:16 Alright, so this might be totally incorrect but I thought that one of the special things about a lambda symbol was that the functional value and variable value were the same 16:21:39 emacs-dwim: can't reproduce and that's strange, anything interesting in *slime-events* or *inferior-lisp* buffer? 16:21:49 *stassats`* typed *infernal-lisp* at first 16:21:59 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.96.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:17 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.96.168] has joined #lisp 16:22:36 no, historically in CL LAMBDA was just a magic word which FUNCTION and a few other things knew about 16:22:36 benbeecher: not quite. 16:22:49 benbeecher: there is a special evaluation rule for a lambda form in the function position. 16:23:01 emacs-dwim: do you have enough RAM? 16:23:08 (that;s what I meant by "a few other things"...) 16:23:09 e.g. ((lambda (o) (print o)) 42) works 16:23:28 (#'(lambda ...) ...) doesn't. 16:23:58 not that i find ((lambda ...)) useful 16:24:34 stassats`: it enables `(,fun ..args...)! 16:25:05 I guess `(funcall #',fun ...) would be equivalent. 16:25:13 but again #'fun won't work 16:25:28 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-141-156-235-91.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:31 drewc, i think, has a reasonable use-case 16:25:59 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@122.167.96.168] has left #lisp 16:26:21 stassats`: *inferior-lisp* http://paste.lisp.org/+2071 16:26:35 arg, now why wouldn't (#'(lambda ...)) work? Doesn't #' mean pull out the functional value of the symbol x? Shouldn't (#'(lambda foo) bar) be the same as ((lambda foo) bar)? 16:26:40 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 16:26:58 -!- JohnnyL [i=excellen@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 16:26:58 because the first place isn't evaluated 16:27:02 benbeecher: nope, the first element in a function call form is special. 16:27:09 no, because the evaluation rule for the function position of a form is special 16:27:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.195.210.138] has quit [] 16:27:16 stassats`: MemTotal: 2076304 kB MemFree: 454128 kB 16:27:43 benbeecher: it *would* work in Scheme, where it's not special 16:27:57 emacs-dwim: sounds ok, i was just thinking that it may thrash swap 16:28:00 so if the first place isn't evaulated, #' would point to nothing? 16:28:18 no, it would be a syntax error 16:28:34 er, well, not quite syntax, but, not sure of the name 16:28:50 tfb: I had my first exposure to lispy in scheme, so alot of assumptions I'm discovering are like that :( 16:29:03 ((function ...) ...) is not a legal CL expression basically 16:29:08 emacs-dwim: and *inferior-lisp* looks ok. what's the value of swank:*communication-style*? and do you have anything unusual in ~/.swank.lisp or emacs config regarding slime 16:30:27 oh, it's using slime from clbuild, i don't know what it does to slime 16:31:05 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:31:21 Alright, I think that makes sense... Thanks all for helping me understand 16:32:07 The rules in C are basically crufty buy highly-evolved to work 16:32:25 er 16:32:35 tfb: at least, not portably. 16:32:42 The rules in CL are basically crufty but highly-evolved to work 16:32:58 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@95.76.26.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:18 An implementation can extend the rules arbitrarily there. 16:33:41 can it, and be conforming? 16:34:23 theres always a reason for the things being the way they are, I just find that most books/info out there says "this is how things work" rather then "this is why things work this way" and I always end not understanding things because of it :) 16:34:23 may be it can 16:35:00 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 16:35:04 Yeah, I think it's not allowed to describe the extension as an improvement or something in that spirit. 16:35:58 benbeecher: yeah, there ought to be more "this is why it was done this way" information 16:36:45 as it is the few places you find it tend to be from people who don't like CL which tends not to help if your goal is to understand why CL did it the way it did 16:36:54 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:36:59 madnificent [n=madnific@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:37:09 emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:33 interesting general historical write-up on lisp is hopl2.pdf paper 16:37:37 alley_cat [n=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:37:51 stassats`: stealin that 16:37:55 or rather HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 16:38:00 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-120-122.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:11 stassats`: swank:*communication-style* => :SPAWN 16:38:52 emacs-dwim: you are using unchanged clbuild configuration? 16:39:03 is your clbuild up to date? 16:39:15 *stassats`* goes looking what clbuild does to slime 16:40:36 stassats: unchanged 16:40:41 it seems ok 16:41:11 hej pkhuong 16:41:14 you got a moment? 16:41:23 sure 16:41:46 pkhuong, I asked earlier why mutex-owner uses cas to retrieve the %owner slot 16:42:06 (setq slime-ed-use-dedicated-frame nil slime-complete-symbol-function 'slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol slime-use-autodoc-mode tslime-backend "/home/.sbcl/site/clbuild/.swank-loader.lisp") 16:42:08 does that ensure a memory reference? 16:42:37 it's an implicit full barrier 16:42:43 (for the CPU) 16:42:44 sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.18.143] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 ok 16:43:01 Why does holding-mutex-p not need that? 16:43:30 stassats`: just updated --installed today 16:43:33 emacs-dwim: i don't know what might be a problem, can you also annotate your paste with contents of *slime-events*? 16:45:06 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:45:15 trittweiler: acquiring a mutex is also a barrier 16:45:28 Trying to see why there's no need for a barrier after the write 16:45:35 stassats`: http://paste.lisp.org/+2071/1. 16:46:22 stassats`: i am using emacs in --daemon mode. 16:46:29 looks like a bug in the sb-lutex case. 16:46:43 pkhuong, releasing a mutex involves a barrier, too? 16:46:51 I think so. 16:47:02 the pthreads docs would cover that. 16:47:12 milanj [n=milan@109.93.202.121] has joined #lisp 16:47:27 pkhuong, release-mutex uses CAS on %owner 16:47:30 emacs-dwim: can you try without daemon mode? 16:47:43 so I see while %owner is enough for holds-mutex-p 16:47:52 why 16:47:59 trittweiler: no, not necessarily. 16:48:15 stassats`: same problem 16:48:22 There's no barrier between the write in get-mutex and the read in holding-mutex-p. 16:48:29 emacs-dwim: i give up 16:49:07 pkhuong, I'm on (and talking about) #-sb-lutex 16:49:49 -!- benbeecher [n=user@173.84.80.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:26 ok, good then. All the writes to it are with CAS. 16:52:50 pkhuong, In my synchronized collector, I just return the cdr of a structure's slot, (and said told yesterday only lock in writers), I now wonder if the reader needs such an implicit barrier, too 16:53:57 As the write is locked, and that issues a memory barrier; overlapping cache lines in other cores are marked invalid, aren't they? 16:54:10 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:43 no, worst case is that you get stale values 16:55:02 on x86? 16:55:24 and PPC, and just about everywhere else currently. 16:55:29 I guess I really ought to implement it lock-free 16:57:08 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:09 you'll still get "stale" values; on x86, you have the same guarantee without CAS. You can't really design an experiment to detect the difference. 16:58:31 stassats`: the backtrace shows without-interrupts-body blocks http://paste.lisp.org/+2071/2 16:58:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:43 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:59:47 pkhuong: If I get (A B) (even though there really is (A B C)), and I call the reader _again_, am I guaranteed in a CAS-involving implementation that I get at least (A B C) -- which may still be "stale" again but reflects truth more than the first attempt 16:59:53 -!- potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f661a91-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Client Quit] 17:00:33 Hopefully that made some sense 17:00:41 Yeah, causality. 17:00:42 i just showed lisp code to someone, and he said, 'that's the way it should be'. 17:00:55 odd, innit? 17:00:57 You have that. With CAS or with synchronisation. 17:00:57 stassats`: i'm also using stumpwm as my window manager.. 17:01:24 pkhuong, Ok 17:01:59 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has left #lisp 17:02:18 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:38 have you tested it with dozens of threads? I'd like to see if you hit bad slowdowns with lock collisions. 17:03:13 pkhuong, I guess the "stale" values come through cycle-interleaving? -- or are cache lines really not invalidated on write-memory barrier? 17:03:37 with CAS, you get a full lock on the cache line. 17:03:55 pkhuong, I haven't. I'll perhaps tomorrow. I have a dual core here. 17:04:05 But the official memory model is much weaker. 17:04:26 pkhuong, How should I perform the timing? TIME's enough? 17:05:01 Does TIME report any MP related statistics? like per-core usage or something 17:05:33 I'd try and graph the time it takes to get in the critical section. 17:05:47 See if you have two bumps. 17:06:36 How do I do that best? 17:06:56 Anyone done much with serial? I'm trying to set onlcr, but calling stty from sbcl using run-program appears to have no effect, and apparently that's a POSIX extension so it depends on the xsi feature and it's not in the sb-posix:tcgetattr thingy. 17:07:08 Getting before with-mutex, and inside? with-mutex and :waitp nil, and counting attempts in some form of loop+sleep? 17:07:17 Getting time 17:07:24 sb-vm::get-cycle-counter or something around the with-sync and again inside. 17:07:37 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:01 Ok 17:08:32 Off to home. 17:09:08 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@pool-74-102-190-116.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:37 billstclai [n=billstcl@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:09:50 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:39 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:10:47 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 17:11:22 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:30 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:13:57 DrForr [n=drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:28 coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:31 -!- ignas [n=ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:20 -!- somecodehere [n=ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:44 -!- todos [n=ttodos@195.160.234.10] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:33 -!- pjb [n=t@19.Red-88-30-112.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:04 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Operation timed out] 17:23:41 -!- saba_ [n=saba@94.136.88.17] has quit ["leaving"] 17:26:09 billitch [n=billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:09 rpg [n=rpg@192.1.118.137] has joined #lisp 17:28:11 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:32:01 -!- kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:13 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:32:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:33:14 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@c80-216-166-15.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:34:24 -!- newfurniturey [n=darkcida@74.93.195.210] has quit [] 17:35:55 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 redline6561 [n=redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:21 jmbr [n=jmbr@88.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:37:40 -!- easyE [i=[60h2hmy@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:11 gruseom [n=daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:13 abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:35 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:29 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:44 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:47 hmm, anyone have drakma and a willingness to do some distributed screen-scraping with me? 17:44:10 *Xach* has a short program that needs to run for an hour or so against google groups, which is rate-limited... 17:45:24 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:32 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has left #lisp 17:46:56 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 17:50:40 Zephyrus [n=emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:50:56 Xach: I might try, but I have small heap on server 17:51:12 p_l: a socks proxy would also work ;) 17:51:55 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:48 I'm trying to understand a declaim statement. Does anyone understand this: 17:52:48 (declaim (type (simple-array single-float) *vertex* *color*) 17:52:48 (single-float *angle*)) 17:53:58 that should probably be (simple-array single-float 1). 17:54:20 The first declaims that *vertex* and *color* are always of type (simple-array single-float) 17:54:38 The second is an implicit TYPE declaration that *angle* is a single-float. 17:55:03 probably 3 element arrays though 17:55:19 for vertex and color 17:55:47 possibly 4 actually 17:56:08 potatishandlarn [n=potatish@c-4f664e52-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 17:56:19 pkhuong: is simple-array defined here or built in. I've read the hyperspec but I can't wrap my head around proclaim and declaim. 17:56:54 -!- Reaver1 [n=Data_Ent@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:17 WarWeasle: declaim doesn't evaluate its arguments. 17:57:39 clhs simple-array 17:57:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ar.htm 17:59:04 pkhuong: Does this just affect the next element? 17:59:27 does what affect the next element of what? 18:00:14 -!- abugosh [n=Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:01:20 pkhuong: I missunderstood what you were saying with: clhs simple-array 18:01:25 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #lisp 18:02:50 So this creates a structured type with slots *vertex*, *color*, and *angle*. All of type single-float? 18:03:24 Xach: you can run it yourself, but i can give you an account 18:04:01 WarWeasle: absolutely not. 18:04:14 It declares the types of the special variables *vertex*, *color* and *angle* 18:05:57 pkhuong: But it uses make-array for each of those and defines the type. Is this declaim not necessary? 18:06:47 WarWeasle: they're both necessary 18:07:09 pkhuong: how so? 18:07:29 The declaration makes the guarantee available to all the code that refers to these variables, and the make-array must specify the right element type for the value to be of the declaimed type. 18:07:38 WarWeasle: what book are you learning from? 18:08:01 prxq: cl-sdl example code. 18:08:46 pkhuong: So this is just an advance definition. 18:09:00 no, it's a declaration. 18:09:13 adeht [n=death@bzq-84-110-243-33.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.140.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:42 -!- claudia20100115 [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:11 -!- kwinz3 [n=kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:00 pkhuong: I guess I understand the difference. My son has figured out I am on the computer, however and decided he needs me. I have to go. Thanks for the help. Just a little stumped. 18:12:29 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-147-93.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:41 trittweiler: gives an interesting instance of trickiness in the x86 memory model 18:12:42 pkhuong: university proxy is so slow that I have to use SOCKS proxy located on the same IP as my shell server anyway 18:13:21 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:24 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:14:11 jbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has joined #lisp 18:20:27 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-234.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:20:52 aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has joined #lisp 18:26:41 -!- gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:28:54 plutonas [n=plutonas@port-92-195-105-135.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:21 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:30:30 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:39 linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 18:32:03 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:11 linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 18:33:20 postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-84-139.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:34:46 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:43:28 felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 18:44:01 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:48:46 konr [n=user@187.88.205.37] has joined #lisp 18:48:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@port-12970.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:05 xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:49:20 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:59 timor [n=timor@port-87-234-97-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 -!- Kolyan [n=nartamon@95-26-221-210.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:53:21 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:53 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:54:45 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:59:21 spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-53-213.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:01:39 Xach: i have drakma's and bandwidth to spare, and a load of IP addresses. 19:02:06 anair_84 [n=anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:39 finally, someone will kill google 19:02:59 Xach: i've got some bandwidth aswell 19:09:11 Thanks, I'll have to write the program and hit you up a little later. Nap time... 19:09:54 it's going to be sleepy time in a few hours, but maybe before that :) 19:12:26 Hun [n=hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:12:28 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-xkjjgpkgjwvtdufx] has joined #lisp 19:12:32 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: #lisp 19:12:46 sorry 19:12:51 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:58 does someone have the old topic? 19:13:07 I tried to retrieve the topic, not set it. 19:13:37 -!- joga changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.18.0, Hunchentoot 1.1.0, cl-gtk2 0.1.1 19:13:45 thanks! 19:14:03 -!- stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.18.1, Hunchentoot 1.1.0, cl-gtk2 0.1.1 19:14:18 great! abcl 0.18.1 is in it already. 19:14:38 tcr [n=tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:47 -!- sadiquea [n=sadiquea@122.172.18.143] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:23:35 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:24:00 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 19:25:00 holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:25:37 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:25:55 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:27:19 -!- holycow [n=new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:35 -!- hugod [n=hugod@207.96.182.162] has quit [] 19:28:06 grouzen [n=grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:31:55 Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:51 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:37:00 davazp [n=user@205.Red-83-46-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:07 jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:45 -!- stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:39:37 -!- Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit ["Computer says no"] 19:40:37 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:51 hmmmm 19:42:50 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:55 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:23 i wrote an exhaustive loop that attempts to generate a unique number, ensuring it hasn't generated the number before. 19:45:11 it's a form in a handler-case, and it's wrapped in a with-timeout 19:45:56 it just dawned on me that it's perfectly acceptable for it to fail to generate any number; wasting its time finding duplicates 19:46:33 fusss: do you just need unique numbers? could you use an uuid? 19:47:31 guaqua: i have no idea why i started to write this; i was just playing with handler-case, with-timeout, and some of the utils in alexanderia 19:47:40 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:48:03 mostly avoiding input validation cruft that i have to write for the daily crud :-/ 19:48:43 :) 19:49:03 -!- kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:49:50 -!- konr [n=user@187.88.205.37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:50:09 *hefner* hates the term "input validation" 19:50:14 konr` [n=user@187.88.205.37] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 Guthur [n=Michael@host81-159-209-174.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:13 i like the term "throwing obscene errors on what the user did wrong" 19:52:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@AMarseille-252-1-84-139.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 19:52:42 -!- jbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:14 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 19:54:26 I hope you mean obscure 19:54:45 -!- Demosthenes [n=demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:54:55 gabnet [n=gabnet@200.232.91-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:13 particularly obscene when "what the user did wrong" was "enter a character I don't like", because "I want to shovel text around without giving much thought to the encoding used by its consumer" 19:55:14 obscene works, too 19:55:28 heh 19:55:40 Edward [i=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-41.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:56:18 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:17 hefner: the best example I've ever seen of that was a website which got around the scary quotes breaking SQL queries by just turning all user-entered quotes into backquotes :) 19:58:23 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:13 gibranian [n=gibrania@88.238.32.249] has joined #lisp 20:01:49 jbomo [n=dkd@71.108.226.38] has joined #lisp 20:05:13 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-xkjjgpkgjwvtdufx] has left #lisp 20:06:03 rsynnott: that is horrifying. 20:07:11 Adlai [n=Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:08:40 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:10:26 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A7B9F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:43 -!- luis [n=user@64.71.152.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:10 fusss: with-timeout is evil :-) 20:12:22 unicode [n=user@95.214.49.91] has joined #lisp 20:12:31 tcr: how? 20:12:43 *splittist* joins in late 20:12:51 a particular implementation? I am using trivial-timeout's 20:12:59 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441045.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 20:13:17 how about a webform asking for a DOB which rejects all input not in DD.MM.YYYY format, giving no clue as to the required format... 20:13:24 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 20:14:21 fusss: on sbcl at least, it probably depends on the implementation 20:15:04 splittist: that would be highly unamerican 20:15:53 Well, it is a Swiss site. But still. Note that DD/MM/YYYY doesn't work, not DD.MM.YY, nor... 20:16:01 fusss: see the docstring of sb-ext:with-timeout 20:16:07 splittist: yyyy-mm-dd 20:16:18 ? 20:16:51 dd.mm.yyyy is probably "natural" for the german-speaking part of swiss :-) 20:17:07 Beetny [n=Beetny@ppp118-210-15-218.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 -!- spilman [n=spilman@ARennes-252-1-53-213.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:17:31 drewc: tried that, too. Maybe it's just where I'm always flying from, but the US immigration forms ask for DD MM YYYY) 20:17:47 (without the trailing paren, of course) 20:17:55 -!- Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:18:11 yyyy-mm-dd is the one true date format 20:18:13 if you're going to put adjectives before nouns, you might as well put days before months before years too 20:18:57 today's date is 09-05-2066 in Nepal 20:19:12 fusss: are you in Nepal? 20:19:16 fusss: do _they_ have hoverboards yet? 20:19:20 er, nevermind. 20:19:37 hefner: will be soon, vacationing there 20:19:41 what calendar do they use in nepal? 20:19:54 the Nepali calendar 20:20:30 heh 20:20:34 It's the year 2552 in Thailand, and they sure as hell don't have any hoverboards or flying cars. 20:20:47 drewc: no hover boards, but every restaurant is 80s themed 20:20:49 linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has joined #lisp 20:21:11 That's probably "classic" by 2066 20:23:33 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:35 marioxcc [n=user@200.77.65.198] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 fusss: well, that's something. No Mr. Fusion i assume, but pick me up a sports almanac, willya? 20:26:35 is there a particular conceptual reason LOOP won't allow you to swap places for 'for' and 'collect'/'collecting'? (loop collectin ... for ...) is might be more readable 20:27:13 um, because that's the order that the stuff happens 20:27:46 are you looking for something like (collect (scan-range :from 1 :to 100))? 20:27:47 :) 20:28:43 nah, well, I was just wondering how flexible the DSL offered by LOOP is 20:28:47 reading PCL 20:29:41 It's not human language, it's a iteration DSL that's supposed to be not-too-difficult to be parsed by machines 20:29:44 there are some cases where you can shuffle the clauses around 20:30:14 however, the execution order is shuffled back to satifsy certain constraints 20:30:31 so you'll only confuse the hell out of yourself if you reorder clauses 20:30:59 OK, just asking 20:31:13 DEFPACKAGE clauses are also executed in a pre-defined order regardless of textual order :-) 20:31:24 if you want something a little "cleaner", look at ITERATE and SERIES 20:31:32 tcr: I was just asking with a readability point of view in mind 20:32:27 RaceCondition: well, if you're using a DSL to express sequential iteration, putting the operations in the sequence they occur is going to be more readable to most people 20:32:45 RaceCondition: a dimension of readability in programming languages is also how easy it is for the programmer to relate between what he writes and what will happen 20:34:39 qizwiz [n=user@74-95-82-238-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:08 is this the appropriate place to ask about asdf problems? 20:35:15 yes 20:36:24 I'm trying to instally stumpwm for cygwin. I'm getting the xlib 20:36:24 error. I even went to the trouble of manually adding the asdf tarball 20:36:24 of clx and making the symbolic link in the appropriate directory 20:36:44 ugh...sorry about that. I asked the same question in stumpwm 20:36:58 "the" xlib error? which xlib error? 20:38:24 when you do a make, it says there is no package with name "XLIB" 20:38:52 now according to google, that refers to clx. 20:39:40 -!- moah [n=gnu@dslb-188-101-030-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:39:49 I tried to manually add the tarball as you read, but no luck 20:40:52 make? 20:41:01 shouldn't you be doing asdf:oos? 20:41:22 I guess their makefile might call that, but who knows 20:41:36 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 20:41:43 -!- retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:42:10 retroj [n=retroj@pdpc/supporter/active/retroj] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 stoop [n=stoop@unaffiliated/stoop] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 ok, let's start from the simplest place. How can I verify that asdf knows about clx? 20:43:39 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clx) 20:44:55 no, it doesn't know about it 20:45:26 then your symlink is bad 20:45:37 or your implementation doesn't understand cygwin symlinks 20:45:57 SBCL? Doesn't do cygwin symlinks. 20:46:06 clisp's cygwin build might. 20:46:08 -!- splittist [i=5c6a5031@gateway/web/freenode/x-rykgbetojobuwgxv] has quit ["Page closed"] 20:46:10 other asdf packages install...cl-ppcre for isntance 20:46:22 it is clisp 20:46:24 where did you get this clx package? 20:46:32 from Cliki 20:46:37 did you symlink clx.asd or something else? 20:46:55 clx.asd 20:47:28 and it's in the same location as the rest of the symlinks, like ppcre's? 20:47:39 and doing the same thing with clx doesn't work? 20:47:43 I'm verifying that now 20:47:46 one sec 20:48:08 if it works for ppcre, just try to copy what the setup is for that :) 20:48:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:49:25 I told asdf to install system-wide which put it in /usr/local 20:49:29 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:49:38 one quick fix is to do (pushnew "/path/to/clx/" asdf:*central-registry* :test #'equal)) then (asdf:oos....) 20:49:50 LiamH: hi 20:49:52 so ppcre is in both /usr/local and ~/.cl/systems 20:50:19 leo2007: hi 20:50:43 mprime [i=c74c90e5@gateway/web/freenode/x-qcpanftrwlwtcpeq] has joined #lisp 20:51:24 oops, ignore the trailing paren on pushnew 20:51:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:51:46 -!- coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:52:02 coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:05 -!- coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:52:13 Guthur: np :-) 20:52:21 coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:34 -!- coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:52:50 coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:01 Why do I see people recommend using pushnew when adding stuff to asdf:*central-registry*? It's an ordered list, after all. 20:53:04 -!- coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:53:12 found it 20:53:16 it's building 20:53:20 coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:34 -!- coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:53:50 coyo_ [n=unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:01 and it looks like it built. I'll try the make again. thanks :-) 20:54:03 Also, the :test #'equal won't work if you put a combination of strings and pathname objects on asdf:*central-registry* 20:54:58 it's important to keep the registry list short for applications that are registry search constrained. 20:55:05 (I don't mean to pick on Guthur; I've seen this come up in other places, too.) 20:55:24 LiamH: I want to see if I can reduce the errors mentioned in http://paste.lisp.org/display/93543 20:56:11 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:22 leo2007: OK 20:56:34 rme: no problem, worth noting 20:57:04 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:57:07 pjb [n=t@16.Red-79-149-142.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:17 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:58:31 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:58:50 I set all mine so its never an issue 20:59:04 is there a standard way to read in an exact decimal number as a rational (eg: "1.100" -> 11/10)? 20:59:49 hrmm...still get teh same xlib error. 20:59:50 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 21:00:01 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:00:15 maybe it's in primitives.lisp? 21:00:32 rme: too be honest I use it because its what everyone else seemed to use 21:00:43 no real thought on my part I am afraid 21:02:51 Guthur: yes; I guess that there may be a fairly prominent example that new users run across that recommends it. 21:02:53 bobbysmith007: unfortunately, no 21:03:00 rme: it never hurts, and it may help (to prevent duplicates), and its easy. 21:03:03 bobbysmith007: but there is RATIONAL and RATIONALIZE 21:03:13 i assumed it was to prevent duplicates 21:03:15 Edward_ [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-38-3.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:03:48 An easy and cool hack to sbcl would be to support 'rational and 'rationalize *read-default-float-format* 21:04:02 Xach: your deadpan delivery stuck dead to the bottom of the pan 21:04:25 Krystof: that would be neat! 21:04:46 and something like 1.1r0 to go with it 21:05:49 rahul: my jokes are only successful if nobody laughs 21:06:01 *rahul* laughs 21:06:04 ;) 21:06:09 about registry list? 21:06:17 so asdf finds the tarball, but breaks when it fails to find the pubkey. can I manually tell it where the pubkey is? 21:06:34 Xach: but keeping the list short isn't just for the machine, it's for humans who might want to read it 21:06:34 p_l: asdf:*central-registry* 21:06:55 it was all rather pointless anyway 21:07:19 It's like PATH - no modern system cares about a PATH with a mass of entries and duplicates, but it's hell for a human to cope 21:07:32 Xach: Actually, Slime is such an application 21:07:38 tfb: hell is "rehash" command 21:07:48 But you might have duplicates on purpose; e.g., you might want to use a newer version of some system found in your home directory, rather than the one in /usr/local/src or wherever. Also, (equal "/some/path/name/" #P"/some/path/name) is false, so unless you know you only have strings or only pathnames, you won't win anyway. But I am belaboring the point. 21:08:22 rahul: thanks 21:08:24 Krystof: I agree, that was what I tried that failed 21:08:30 yes, you might want duplicates, but when you don't, a cheap trick that often avoids spurous ones is worth it 21:08:54 rme: exactly, arguing that duplicates don't matter and pointing out that #equal wont work is kind of mote 21:08:56 you will not *always* win, you may *often* win 21:09:34 its not really an important piece of code, could change it to push 21:09:39 but nothing is really achieved 21:14:49 -!- freiksenet [n=freiksen@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:15:39 -!- konr` [n=user@187.88.205.37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:44 konr`` [n=user@187.88.205.37] has joined #lisp 21:18:14 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 21:18:35 -!- konr`` [n=user@187.88.205.37] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:40 konr``` [n=user@189.96.63.107] has joined 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to do with duplicates. i always use pathnames, never strings (does asdf work with strings even?). 21:32:40 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 21:34:33 Edward [n=Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-187.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:36:52 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:05 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["restart"] 21:38:43 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:06 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-xkjjgpkgjwvtdufx] has joined #lisp 21:40:36 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:38 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:55 drewc: ya it works fine with strings 21:41:33 Guthur: heh.. i'm not sure that was always the case :) 21:43:13 seangrove [n=user@adsl-99-20-129-111.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined 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collision from services.] 22:06:33 -!- prxq [n=mommer@f051033158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["good night"] 22:06:52 holycow [n=new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:07 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:10:13 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:50 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:56 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:47 lisppaste: url? 22:12:48 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 22:13:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 61 (Connection refused)] 22:14:26 minion, you've been resting a lot lately 22:14:26 what's up? 22:14:44 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:16:09 Adlai: the whole freenode DoS debacle seems to have made minion ill... it needs the rest :) 22:16:16 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:16:50 ccl-logbot keeps falling over, too. 22:17:34 so much for the robot apocalypse 22:18:59 bot wars.. spambots vs. refbots 22:20:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:24:56 lispm [n=joswig@e177157079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:28:40 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/freenode/x-xkjjgpkgjwvtdufx] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 22:28:48 -!- Kenjin [n=josesant@242-243.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 22:29:38 hello 22:32:21 hey fe[nl]ix 22:32:33 hi Fade 22:33:09 lichtblau: herep 22:33:15 -!- felideon [n=user@12.228.15.162] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:36:18 -!- pr_ is now known as pr 22:37:05 -!- pr [n=pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 22:37:09 pr [n=pr@p579CA73E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:17 S11001001 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RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.66.125.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 23:04:15 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit ["acpi sleep"] 23:07:37 I want to write a macro that sets a field using an accessor: (defmacro set-field (obj field value) `(setf (,field ,obj) ,value)) 23:07:51 but calling (set-field 'box 'height 30) doesn't work 23:08:02 I think it's the field part? 23:08:25 I'm not sure how to quote it or whatever properly so as to make it resolve to the accessor method's name 23:08:40 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@g229080141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["humhum"] 23:09:45 Lithos [n=chatzill@DSLPool-net214-62.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:26 derefed: use macroexpand. 23:10:30 (macroexpand ' (set-field 'box 'height 30)) 23:10:47 *derefed* tries it 23:12:08 or better, use macroexpand-1 23:12:13 (macroexpand-1 ' (set-field 'box 'height 30)) 23:14:05 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-111-234.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:09 hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-212.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:15:40 -!- mishoo [n=mishoo@79.112.112.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:08 ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-4-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:16:11 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 23:16:55 yeah it expands to (setf ('height 'box) 30) 23:17:10 how do I get 'height unquoted? 23:17:19 cause it needs to be quoted to pass it into the macro 23:17:32 why? 23:17:45 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:52 derefed, try calling the macro as (set-field height box 30) 23:18:12 if you want to pass a quoted field, maybe this should be a function? 23:18:27 -!- saikatc [n=saikatc@c-98-210-192-23.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:18:31 oh so it won't try to resolve height? 23:18:48 I figured if I didn't quote it it won't try to resolve it to something before passing it in 23:18:55 er 23:18:58 s/won't/would/ 23:19:48 derefed: but the arguments of macros are not evaluated before passing them to the macro. They could not be, since macros are expanded at compilation time! 23:20:00 makes sense 23:20:09 I think I'm starting to get it now 23:20:16 thanks guys! 23:24:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:45 -!- ruediger_ [n=quassel@93-82-4-225.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:05 just stop using the macro :) 23:28:49 not sure what you're gaining by adding an alternate syntax for setf 23:29:21 -!- jleija [n=jleija@adsl-91-0-201.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:29:29 it looks more like it should setf slot-value, not setf on an accessor, too 23:29:41 which is probably part of your syntactic confusion 23:30:14 the most important thing about macros is knowing when not to use them (which is pretty much all the time) 23:30:28 b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:30:34 -!- ruediger [n=quassel@188-23-180-125.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:56 rahul: yeah I'm not actually using this macro ;) I am just trying to get the basics of quoting and so forth down so I crafted a simple example that I wouldn't have to pastebin 23:32:03 -!- milanj [n=milan@109.93.202.121] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:58 fair enough 23:34:11 I'd say it was a success, then :) 23:34:20 Ralith [n=ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:34:56 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:36:26 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-31-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:30 gonzojive [n=red@c-98-234-48-41.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:56 -!- wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-5d81409a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:40:46 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:27 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:28 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:27 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:44:37 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 23:44:55 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-195-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:15 -!- danderson [n=dave@91.121.172.158] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:45:21 danderson [n=dave@atlas.natulte.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:29 bombshelter13b [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:49 -!- linelevel [n=ticktack@208.65.172.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:34 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [] 23:53:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@192.1.118.137] has quit [] 23:53:30 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 23:54:20 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:54:55 -!- hefner [n=hefner@ppp-58-9-109-212.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:56:30 saikatc [n=saikatc@76-191-207-53.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:06 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:58:22 rullie_ [n=rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176152733.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:58:29 why's this channel so quiet? isn't it like after work in the states right now? 23:58:43 it's a holiday for some 23:58:53 what holiday? 23:59:00 martin luther king day 23:59:23 was the earlier GNAA attack on freenode related to that? :P 23:59:28 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:59:41 heh 23:59:43 could be 23:59:46 RaceCondition: It's not a chatterfest 24/7.